Kasey: The first thing I would do would be just to really get in there and take a look at your schedule. Like, what does your day look like? How long are you working? What times are you working? You know, what are you doing? And then just put some parameters around that. 

Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question, how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Kasey Compton. Kasey is a speaker, a therapist. She’s a self-love advocate, and she’s an accomplished entrepreneur who’s led for thriving businesses, including a group practice that is an in multi-million dollar territory. She shares that her journey took over a decade to uncover the transformative missing piece in her life, and that is what Kasey and I get into today. Today’s conversation is about balancing ambition and financial goals with fulfillment and joy and love and meaning, and taking care of yourself. Kasey and I talk about that self love piece being a common missing piece in our relationship to money, the traps that achievers can fall into around business and success and working hard, and she shares her own story about how getting in touch with herself has really shifted her way of relating to herself and also to her business. Lots here today for those of us who tend to identify as achievers or perfectionists and tend to move really fast, here’s my conversation with Kasey Compton. 

So Kasey, welcome to the podcast.

Kasey: Thank you for having me.

Linzy: I am excited to have you. We were just chatting a little bit off mic about the work that we did as therapists before we were into this space now. And I think similar to me, you’ve, it sounds like you’ve kind of pivoted quite a bit in your career to get to where you are now.

Kasey: Yeah, certainly. I started out being the therapist for everyone kind of deal.

Linzy: Oh sure.

Kasey: I worked in like in-home type stuff and when I went into private practice for myself, I just started focusing on anxiety and panic disorders and that became my area of expertise until I grew my private practice into a group and then retired from actually providing therapy.

Linzy: I call myself a retired social worker and I’m at the point right now where my college is like, are you re-registering or not? Like you’re about to get in trouble. So I have to like really decide whether or not I’m going to officially take the retired title. But I always find it kind of fun to say retired, like, in our like mid thirties or forties, wherever, well before retirement age. So yeah. So you retired out of therapy and now you focus on self love is a big part of the coaching work that you’re doing now. 

Kasey: Uh, well, back in 2017 I started doing a lot of coaching with owners of all types, private practice, group practice, all of that. And, I realized that systems and processes were kind of my thing. Like that’s just what came naturally to me. And so I focused my work on that for a long time, and after I launched my first book, I started writing the second book, which is the one that’s coming out next. And, it was supposed to be a book about systems, but as I was kind of balancing a lot of life issues with entrepreneurship and all of those great things, I realized that that actually wasn’t the book I was supposed to write and I realized also as a, um, overachieving, practice owner that I was kind of out of balance, you know, like in a lot of ways. And so I still focus a lot on systems, but I do it with more intention based around balance and self love and joy and having, we can have both, you know, we can have successful businesses while having that joy and fulfillment in our lives.

Linzy: I mean that’s a question that I have for you because I’ve certainly experienced this tension myself, you know, kind of like being ambitious and being entrepreneurial and building something which is, is a big project, takes a lot of energy, takes a lot of focus. And then also having friends doing the same thing. Like I see, you know, different choices that friends have made in terms of how we try to balance. And like, I am curious about that. Like, how do people balance, you know, being ambitious, like wanting to be financially successful, wanting to create financial stability with still having like joy and purpose and like all those funner parts of life.

Kasey: Yeah, that’s, that’s really the secret sauce. I think if we can figure that out, then we’re doing really well. What I’ve realized by working with so many people and just going through it myself was if you would have asked me in the peak of my financial life, like the most money that I ever made, the most success I’ve ever had financially. If you would have asked me, do you feel balanced? I would have said, Yeah, a hundred percent. I didn’t even have the awareness around it to be honest. And so a lot of times I think people don’t because they are so hyper focused on outcomes and on the goal that they’re working toward that they actually don’t even feel anything inside of their body anymore. Like they push it out.

Linzy: Yeah. Right. Like, they don’t even have that groundedness or mindfulness, self awareness, to realize, mm, yeah, there’s something missing here.

Kasey: Uh huh. Yeah, so that that was me and I noticed that a lot in the therapists that I work with. They just they really don’t. So I think being able to really really get in touch with your body, how are you feeling?

Linzy: Mm hmm.

Kasey: You know, are you tired a lot? Are you, all of those things are indicators that you’re actually not balanced. And, and so if you don’t have that awareness, then obviously you can’t change anything. But when you do have the awareness, then you can start to understand yourself a little bit better. And sometimes like, where is that drive for that financial success coming from? Like, what are you actually trying to do? What are you wanting to do with money? Do you have something that you’re trying to do with it? Or are you just guns blazing, you know, just going,

Linzy: Yeah, because I think that achiever part of us, right? Can really drive the ship and it’s just like we’re looking for that A-plus in life, but now it’s, it’s a certain amount of dollars. Um, but that is such a great question. Like, and that’s. It’s also the kind of work that I tend to do with folks is like slow down, like what are you, what are you looking for? Like what is this money going to do for you? Because it really is, can start to feel like an end in itself, right? It’s kind of this trap that we fall into of, you know, like, well, when I make this much money or when this thing happens or I need, we just start to hit goals. And I think achievers are very motivated by goals and we’re very good at figuring out how to get to goals, but it can be all consuming and, and like for what, what’s the point?

Kasey: Yes, definitely. And, you know, I’ve noticed that there’s some things. Simple things that people can do to kind of help balance, which would be, putting limits around their schedule. It works for me. Like, once I go home, I don’t work. I give myself time limits for things and that’s really helpful instead of saying, well, I’ll get this done tomorrow. It’s more of like, well, I’m going to get this done in the morning, you know, very specific

Linzy: Mhmm.

Kasey: Otherwise it just will drag on. And then I’ll be at home, you know, working on something that I should have already had done it. So I think just having boundaries for yourself around. Your time and the things that are important to you, like your kids or your family or, or whatever it is, that you need to do actually helps you become more financially successful

Linzy: Mhmm.

Kasey: you become more intentional with your time.

Linzy: Yes. Yeah, like something that I experience in myself sometimes, and I’m curious if you’ve had a similar experience is, I call it being velocitized. So when I took driving lessons back when I was a teenager, they explained that, you know, when you’re driving on the highway, you get so used to going fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, that you get off the highway, and now you’re on a residential road, and you’re still going fast, like, you don’t realize how fast you’re going. And I noticed that myself sometimes checking with my body of like, I’m in this mode of like, going fast, gotta go, gotta do this, gotta do this, gotta do this. But it’s such a, a disembodied experience, like it’s so not grounded. And like you said, like at that point I’m not able to be like, Hey, I’m kind of tired or I’m hungry or I think I need to go for a walk. Like all those cues are kind of gone because I’m just in this, you know, kind of, adrenalinized state. And I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, like they, they live in that space all the time. It’s really hard to get out of that space when that’s how you’re doing your work.

Kasey: Right. Well, and I have heard- and as I was writing my book, I interviewed a lot of people and I heard a lot of stories about people who are in that adrenaline, focus, hypervigilant mentality toward achievement and the stories that I heard were so comparable in that, they were going so full-on that when they actually stopped or slowed down, or maybe I shouldn’t say slow down. Maybe I should just say stop. So like if they had a major life disruption, like a divorce, um, a major health issue, like something that just caused them to hit a wall,

Linzy: Mm hmm.

Kasey: When they didn’t have that adrenaline running through their bodies every single day, all day long, like they had been used to. So many of them tell me that it was almost like everything came caving in on them. Like they started getting sick, they started having like all these health problems, and so many of them told me, you know, I think my, it was like self preservation, you know, my body felt this, but it just wasn’t- the adrenaline was not going to let me feel the thing, my body that I needed to feel to go get checked out or, you know what I’m saying?

Linzy: If your body thinks you’re running from a tiger, it’s not going to tell you like, Hey, there’s this thing happening. We should slow down.

Kasey: Right. Yeah. And that totally happened to me too. And I thought, you know, I remember when I hit my wall, I was just like, Oh my gosh, like maybe I should get back in that like hypervigilant mode and start working again, because I just, I felt, I was tired. And there was a point where I, I mean, I slept for almost three months, like,

Linzy: Yeah,

Kasey: Just just hit the wall, and I was just like, oh, I’m out. Like, I can’t, I can’t solve a problem. I couldn’t do it for anything. 

Linzy: I find like that mode, and this is what I’ve experienced myself, and this is what I observe in some folks around me, like, there’s something very compelling about being in that mode, like, it feels very powerful, and it can feel very, like, in control, and like, I’m doing the things, I’m doing the things, and I think, too, we live in a culture of busy, where if you’re busy and productive, you’re successful, right, and like, so it’s really hard, I think, too, to stop and claim, No, I actually want to slow down and maybe I will make a little bit less money for a while or maybe some of these things like won’t look as successful on paper at first. Because as you say, I think like when we slow down, we can become more strategic and then make more strategic decisions. But that can be a really hard thing to put on the brakes because there is something kind of addictive and yeah, just compelling about going really fast. We get rewarded for that in society.

Kasey: Well, and it’s that instant gratification. You know what I mean? It’s definitely rewarding us for that. I don’t want to call it bad behavior, but for unhealthy type behavior, it’s a very fine line.

Linzy: So, you know, your focus, I know part of what you teach about is self love, right? And I also help folks with like money and business, but I’m kind of in the like financial skills systems groundedness. So like. I’m curious for you, when you’re working with folks who are struggling with financial stress or financial setbacks, how do you teach them to bring self love into overcoming these challenges? 

Kasey: Yeah, oftentimes I’m really challenging them to go back and think about what those money messages are, that they keep coming up for them. you know, cause I’ve been there myself. I’ve had several instances throughout my life, adult life, professional life, where I’ve had some financial setbacks and it’s been really scary. 

In the way that I grew up, we weren’t in poverty. I mean, we weren’t poor. And if you would have asked my mom or my dad, like what, what were we? They would both say, we weren’t poor. Now, like as an adult, looking back, if looking back at my family, I mean, we were poor. and so I carry a lot of those messages from childhood into my adulthood. And there’s a lot of fear associated with lack of finances because we lived paycheck to paycheck and there’s a lot of fear around that. And so I think I have to be mindful and help bring some of that into awareness for people because some of those messages may not even be accurate anymore. And they may be something that we can easily shift out of. So that’s, that’s really the first thing. And then also, you know, just reminding people too that, well, and this is what I had to tell myself. Like I built my business from nothing and when I went through a major life change, when I went through a divorce, I mean, he was not a business partner of mine. He didn’t help me start the business. None, none of it, but he was entitled to half. Um, So, like, giving half of your money away that you have worked, over-functioned for, you know, 18 hours a day, all, like, basically giving up your whole existence for, it was very, like, really, really hard, but it was also a good lesson because if, if you can do it once, you can do it again,

Linzy: Yes.

Kasey: I think sometimes it’s helping people just to remember. And to spark that confidence again, like you’ve done this before, and do this again,

Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, usually the second time is easier. It kind of reminds me of, this is a little different, but I don’t know if you ever had the experience of, of being a student and you, like, write an essay and then you would, like, lose the document sometimes. This, this happened a lot, like, in the early 2000s when I was in school, where, like, your computer would not save.

You’d have to save actively and you forget to save and then your computer would shut down and you would, like, lose it and you’d have to do it all over again. And it’s, like, so painful and so devastating. But the second time is always easier because you’ve already like laid the groundwork in your mind, like, you know where you’re going, right? And you probably write it even better than you did the first time and certainly much faster. And so, yeah, it’s like that foundation that you’ve built, that pathway. Doesn’t go away. but what I notice sometimes is like certainly the folks that that I support and I’m sure many folks who listen to this podcast like tend to be achievers, right? They tend to be perfectionists, and they are so busy focusing on what they don’t know yet, or their fear of what’s coming, like all of the, the scary unknown or where they think they’re failing that they don’t recognize exactly what you’re talking about, which is like how much they’ve learned and how much they’ve built. And again, like that doesn’t just go away, right? If something happens to you in your life.

Kasey: Right, right for me, it was easier the second time, it was harder in different ways. It was harder in just swallowing the pride of like, here we go again, you know, like, I’m gonna have to.

Linzy: Right.

Kasey: But yeah, the foundation is the same. And so at some point, when you’re looking at finances, it’s I tell people like, it’s just math. And so you’ve already built the thing. And so there’s only a couple ways to become more financially stable you’re either gonna add more therapists and more clients or you’re gonna lower your your overhead or both. So it’s it’s actually pretty simple,

Linzy: Yeah. There are those two levers. That’s how I describe it. Like I have two levers, you know, you’re either going to make more or you’re going to spend less. And like, those are our two levers. And then you figure out the right configuration for you. Kasey, tell me more then about self love principles too, because that’s something that I know you teach and talk about that is, is not my wheelhouse. Tell me about self love principles and how those apply to these financial struggles that therapists can have.

Kasey: Well, I think one of the things that people need to ask themselves, because I never asked myself this question and it wasn’t until it was asked in a therapy session that I realized, Oh crap, like I don’t even know what that is. I don’t know what self love is. Cause you know, for achievement minded outcome driven people, if you would have told me five years ago, Oh, like you just need to love yourself. I would be like, You’re crazy. I just need to make more money. Like, you know, most people think that that is not something tangible. That is not something that they can control. That is not something that’s going to make them money. And so they don’t even want to fool with it, but I think you have to ask yourself, how much do you love yourself right now? Even like put a number to it on a scale from one to ten. How much do you love yourself? And when that question was asked of me, I did not have an answer. I think I landed on the number two. because I couldn’t even conceptualize what that was. Like. Yeah, it was just really hard and especially because I had at that point started to make some connections that my perception of my value was contingent on my contribution to things financially,

Linzy: Yes.

Kasey: Obviously I, I wasn’t loving myself if I believe that, you know, if I believe that, I mean, I remember talking to my ex husband, like, after I started the business, maybe they’ll want us to come back to church now that we actually can, like, tithe, you know, maybe they’ll ask you to be in the band again because now give and like that’s really messed up.

But I just noticed that I was lacking that love of myself, which also entails confidence, grace and, and business owners are so- therapists especially- are so hard on themselves and that is not love.

When you’re talking to yourself, when you’re putting pressure on yourself to achieve and grow your business and grow your practice and all of those things, think about, would you talk to your own children that way? Because if you wouldn’t, then I don’t know why we talk to ourselves that way and we put a such unrealistic and such high stakes expectations on ourselves. And so I would say that’s how self love connects just one way, there’s a lot, but…

Linzy: Yeah. And I mean, there’s a lot to the story you just said. I feel like there’s a whole backstory there, obviously. It sounds like around like the church and, and community, but something that sticks out to me from that too is like thinking about, what are we actually looking for in life? Right? Like, what do we actually want? What are our values? And like, what I’m hearing there, you know, with the hopes that you had, where you’re like, well, we’re successful now. And like, I’m hearing like connection, belonging, like maybe we can connect, maybe we can belong, maybe we’ll be accepted. Right. And that’s, I think, so powerful to, to name and notice, right? That’s what it’s about. Like, that’s what you’re really looking for. Cause I think sometimes we try to go the long way to what we really want. And, we’re actually, this is, this episode is going to be on YouTube. So folks who are watching YouTube can see what I’m doing. Listeners cannot, but, it’s kind of like what we want is right in front of us. We go this like long circuitous route way off to the side to try to get there rather than going directly for that thing. but it sounds like in your case, like there’s all these stories around success. Like this, it doesn’t sound like it was just internal messages that were making you think that you had to be financially successful to belong.

Kasey: Now, you nailed it. I mean, that’s a hundred percent, that’s it. Like, that is the message of my whole book. That is the message of everything that I’m, that I’m teaching. And so, yes, I had money mindset issues from the beginning because of that. It was just this ultimate need to feel loved and belong to something and, you know, this is just natural, you know, if people don’t feel loved or included or like they belong, they’re going to feel like they have to seek it out, like they have to seek out solutions. Like well maybe it’s because I don’t have this, maybe it’s because I don’t have that, maybe it’s because I’m not pretty enough, maybe it’s because I, you know, whatever.

And so all of those little things that go off in our head, we start chasing after them. Really, we just need to go back inside ourselves and look at the things that we already bring to the table that are more than worthy and you know, it’s not like one day you wake up and you’re like, yeah, I love myself. You know, like this was like a three year journey for me. But I noticed that the longer that I had started doing more intentional type of work on understanding myself, understanding all of these things, I was loving myself and I cared less about the external validation of people and places and organizations and then it also became a lot easier to run my business. Because I wasn’t like all these little red flags weren’t going off all the time about you know, when someone sends in a resignation and then you get triggered by abandonment and like it was all these things that happens to us. It just became a lot easier to make decisions like, okay, this person’s like, all right, I guess I need to hire another one. You know, it just things so much easier.

Linzy: And I mean, that’s such powerful work that I think it’s tempting to skip. It’s tempting for – even as therapists, even though we know obviously that there’s so much inside and we have a whole universe inside that needs to be attended to. What I do see is like when we get into the business track and especially what you’re talking about with group practice, where it’s like scaled income, you know, like you can make a lot of money. You’ve got a lot of responsibility, a lot of balls up in the air. It’s really, I think, tempting to try to skip that, that work that is really about vulnerability, right? Like connecting with your own vulnerability. Who are you, what actually feeds you, attending to the things that are feeding those triggers. But what I see, Kasey, and I’m curious about your perspective on this is when people don’t do that work, especially when they’re bosses to other people, we become really terrible bosses too, like when we’re getting triggered and like taking our stuff out on other people and not even owning it right? Like it’s there’s a lot of repercussions when you’re in a position of power when you are not taking care of yourself.

Kasey: A hundred percent. Yes. I see that so much. So, so, so much. And you know, people are hard enough to manage and lead even when you’re in perfectly healthy mode. And so then you add in all of the other things and it’s, it’s really hard and we’re human and we make mistakes and I’ve made plenty, but being able to build awareness around yourself and your ability to love yourself and give yourself grace and all of those things. Just 100% it makes you a better leader, a better person, a better mother, a better friend, a better partner, a better everything. We tell ourselves, well, we don’t have time, you know, I don’t have time to do that cause I’m so doing all the things over here, but those things are never going to be at their greatest level of possibility without out you doing the work for yourself first.

Linzy: So for folks who are listening and maybe recognizing too that maybe they’ve been a little overly focused on thinking that numbers are gonna, you know, give them fulfillment. I’m curious like what would be your suggestion or advice for how did they start to shift their their mindset or what are some first steps that folks can take towards focusing more on like their well being and and joy and the things that really matter?

Kasey: the first thing I would do would be just to really get in there and take a look at your schedule. Like, what does your day look like? How long are you working? What times are you working? You know, what are you doing? And then just put some parameters around that. I know that sounds really elementary and just simple, but it’s a huge first step, especially for people with control. And, you know, they, they like to be in control and they like to be busy and they like to over achieve, right. There is simple, but it’s impactful in so many ways. So I think I would start there. And then the very next thing would be to put down some intentional time for yourself.

And I’m not talking about like getting a manicure or getting a facial, although those things are great. That’s great self care. I’m talking about doing things for you. Like maybe, maybe seeing a therapist yourself, maybe spending time, like, I used to do this every morning, at 10 a. m. I, for an hour, I would journal, something that’s really going to bring about some introspection for your, for yourself.

Linzy: Yeah, and I think, you know, what you mentioned too about scheduling, people who are driven and are achievers, like, we have the ability to make things happen, so what I’m hearing too is like, use those skills to actually make space to be with yourself. And take care of yourself. I love that idea of journaling. When you said journaling and for an hour every day, my internal response was oof, which means probably I should be journaling for an hour every day. Maybe there’s something there. But like I could see how powerful that would be to set aside that time on a daily basis to be with yourself. Like you would make a lot of discoveries and shifts. In that hour a day, without a doubt. 

Kasey: something that happens when it’s scheduled and when it’s at the same time every day. I’m sure there’s some kind of brain science behind that. It definitely puts it in the forefront. I got to where I could just feel that it was 10 o’clock. You know, like, okay. You know, my body is signaling me and then, one last thing I’ll say about that. I just thought of it. So as I was going through some different writing programs and working with different writing coaches, Laura Stone. She is an author and she helped a lot, but she used to say, because in the beginning, whenever I would try to write at 10 o’clock for an hour, I was like, I don’t know what to write about. I can’t, like, I can’t even, I don’t even know. And she said, okay, if you don’t know, rather than just sit there, just write about what you would like to write about. So just write down what you would like to journal about. And it’s a trick,

Linzy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a great trick, because you’re just taking that one step back. You’re, you’re taking yourself, like, out of the pressure. And, like, giving yourself that little bit of perspective. Yeah. And that’s, that’s so powerful. Like, I, I’ve been doing an online course. called Life of Focus, from Cal Newport. He wrote the book Deep Work, which I read last year and like blew my mind and, just about making space for what matters. And something that he talks about actually with writing specifically is like, he said that, Amateurs expect inspiration, they wait for inspiration to come, and that’s when they try to create. But like professionals, like people who really do these things, they do it exactly the way you’re talking about. They do it every day, they sit down, inspired or not, they get going. And like, it’s interesting to me as you’re saying that, because it’s like, yeah, that can be applied to self care too. It’s like, okay, maybe you don’t feel like doing yoga. Make yourself do it. And like 10 minutes in, you’re like, Oh yeah, this is good. I should be doing this. Right. But I think sometimes we think that we need to feel inspired to take care of ourself or inspired to look inside. and often that doesn’t happen in the busy lives that we live.

Kasey: No, that’s wonderful. Yeah. It should be the opposite. We, we should dictate that time and that inspiration always comes.

Linzy: absolutely. Kasey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. for folks who are listening, who want to get further into your world, can you tell them where to find you, where to follow you, if you get any freebies for them?

Kasey: Yeah. Check us out. We’re on all social channels and freebies are all on the website. So it’s KaseyCompton.com. All kinds of freebies, all kinds of things to get involved in book clubs, free swag, all kinds of cool stuff.

Linzy: Great. Awesome. And we’ll put all of your links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Kasey, for joining me today.

Kasey: Thank you. 

Linzy: I really appreciated Kasey’s perspective on the importance of prioritizing yourself and your wellbeing in your business, and using your system and your schedule and your skills to actually get that into your system. As I said, her idea of journaling every day at 10, I’m like, oh. That sounds really intense. Which for me probably means, you know, it’s something I should be doing. Uh, there’s some sort of charge there and it’s just so wise to use our skills of, our frontal cortex, basically, right? Like our ability to create schedules and order and actually apply those superpowers to ourselves and actually get those things into our own schedule. So I encourage you to think about what that might be for you. Is it journaling? Is it getting yoga into your schedule? Is it going for a walk every day at the same time? And as she mentions, like doing something every day is so powerful, we actually condition ourselves to expect that thing. So really, you know, fake it till you make it. Don’t wait until you’re inspired to take care of yourself, but actually schedule in taking care of yourself. I think that is excellent advice. I appreciate the conversation with Kasey today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can also follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts And if you are curious about working on your own relationship with money, some of your own stories that you’re carrying, you can check out my free mini training, The Secret to Getting Unstuck In Your Finances, if you find you have a lot of anxiety around money, so you just avoid it if you feel like you’re just getting by with money and you know you should be saving for your future, but you’re just not. If you feel like you always have just enough money, and no matter how many more clients you see, you still feel like you’re getting by, this mini training is for you. The mini training is a series of short, easy to digest videos that prompt you to reflect, look inside, and start to get in touch with your own stories about money. Because when we are struggling with money in these ways, it’s not just about skills and it’s not about systems. It’s that your relationship. With money needs to change and this mini training is a free first step to do exactly that, so you can get the link in the show notes for the secret to getting unstuck in your finances mini training. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Ashley: [00:00:00] I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not all the negative things that come up. / 

Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast. So today is a little bit of a different episode. Today my guest is Ashley Dickson-Ellison, who is our podcast editor, so this conversation kind of came about organically when we were chatting and this is mentioned a little bit in the episode about Ashley and whether or not she was like charging us enough for the work that she’s doing and maybe the work that she’s doing has grown.

And she was mentioning how anxiety inducing it is for her to think about upping her package with us and really charging us for all the work that she was doing. And we kind of made a joke on our podcast meeting of, you should come on the podcast. And it was like, no, you should come on the podcast.

So Ashley’s coming on the podcast today– she’ll also be editing this episode– to talk about her anxiety about charging for the work that she does. So in our conversation today, we dig into that anxiety that I know so many therapists and health practitioners can relate to. That fear of asking for the money that you actually need and really valuing your service.

But in our conversation with Ashley, we also got into really connecting with what she’s offering that’s different and really being able to start to recognize and articulate what is different about what she’s doing and being able to trust the bigger picture and see herself as being in an investment period.

So we talk about investment periods, what that means, how to distinguish between when you’re in an investment period and when your business is just not working, and being able to like step into really owning your expertise and trusting that you’re building something bigger and better. Some of that patience, so, so many pieces that apply to all of us in business.

Here is my conversation with Ashley Dickson-Ellison. 

 So Ashley, welcome to the podcast.

Ashley: Thank you. Thanks for having me. ​ 

Linzy: Yeah. Thank you for being here. This is a little bit of a funny, like, you’re showing up in the process earlier than usual, because you are not a therapist. You are our podcast editor. 

Ashley: Yeah. So I work with you all in that capacity, but I have found as I am a listener to the podcast that I, as a small business owner, definitely have a lot of similarities to people in private practice.

Linzy: Absolutely. And I think there’s a lot of overlap, too, in terms of just your identity and probably like your level of education. Like, You’ve got a lot in common with our listeners and also you’re a creative type. And something I was thinking about, too, as I was thinking about this episode – because we decided to record this episode kind of organically chatting through our own kind of contract negotiation that we’re doing between us right now – and like you were talking about the emotions that are coming up and we kind of made a joke with our podcast team of like, “Oh, you should come on the podcast,” and I was like, “No, you should come on the podcast!” Because I think the emotions that you are experiencing are exactly what therapists are often experiencing as well, even though you’re in a different field. So, coming into our conversation today, what do you want to focus on? What is kind of something that we can start with in terms of challenges around money? 

Ashley: Yeah. So I think what I’d love your help with, Linzy, is navigating all the emotions that come up when figuring out how to price something and then navigating that with a client. So I find that it is really hard for me to both respect what I need to live, what I need people to pay me for my services to take care of myself and my family, and to balance that with what I think they think is fair.

I try not to get too caught up in the race to the bottom situation, but there, you know, realistically, there are lots of people out there who, for many, many reasons, do it for a lot less, and so I think I kind of have to figure out how to handle that, and just in general, when I think about all the pain points in my business, the thing that is the most painful is navigating finances with clients.

Linzy: Okay. So it’s, it’s that relationship piece of the money between you and your clients. 

Ashley: I think so. I think I feel uncomfortable even talking about it, I have realized, and then figuring it out. Like, if I could pay someone, if I knew who to ask and trust and could have them write all that stuff up for me, I would want to do that because it’s that painful to me. 

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah. Okay, so tell me then about, about that pain, like what does come up when you have to have those conversations with clients?

Ashley: Well, I notice it in my body, so I think that’s where I first realized I had a problem because typically, even if I feel anxiety, it’s more like in my head than in like my gut, whereas this is definitely like in my body, I feel sweaty, I am like waking up during the night worrying about it. I feel that kind of churning feeling, so those were some indicators to me.

And then also I’ve found that I will put it off, so like there’s somebody right now that I need to… Fortunately you, Linzy, gave me a very clear like, have this done in a couple of days, and I appreciated that, and I thought, Linzy is looking out for me. 

Linzy: I made you do it. Yeah. 

Ashley: Sure. You did, you did, and I needed that.

You know, you were like, just go ahead and get it done because you knew that once I got it off my plate, I was going to feel better. And that’s true. That is true. But if somebody doesn’t have that, then I will just keep sitting on it and trying to perfect it. I mean, so I guess the perfectionism comes up.

Like I started trying to like, get it just right. I kind of agonize over the details of it because a lot of this stuff is not clear exactly how long it’s going to take, what it is worth, like all of that stuff is kind of hard to quantify. And so then I find that I have trouble figuring it out. 

Linzy: Because you’re doing project based work, right, which is a little different than most of the folks who are listening, who are doing sessions, where it’s like you’re exchanging time for money and then you have to figure out, okay, what is the value that they’re getting from it, but there’s also this hour that’s always in the mix. For you, as you’re like doing an episode. I’m going to guess there’s variability that can happen on how long it takes you to, you know, edit somebody’s episode based on a bunch of factors.

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And I do think it’s more like if there are people listening who have other offerings, it’s that kind of thing. Like, how much is a course worth? How should I charge for a program? What is it if I’m giving somebody consultation advice instead of therapy, like, you know, what does that look like?

So I think it’s that kind of packaging and pricing is definitely the realm that I’m in and I do have a hard time both figuring it out and then also delivering it to the person. 

Linzy: I’m hearing there’s like a lot that happens in your body, which is different. That’s like a different kind of anxiety than you’re used to. Cause you said usually anxiety’s in your head.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Like I’m, you know, I get in there, I mean like a lot of people with a similar personality, I go from productive thought that is like, Oh, I need to figure this thing out. To the stuck spiral of I’m gonna keep thinking about this even though I’ve already drawn any logical conclusions I can draw that’s already happened, but I know that and I recognize it and it doesn’t always work. But I do have things that I know to do when that happens. Whereas like I said this one I just have noticed it’s just totally different.

I mean, I was in education for 17 years prior and I never once had to talk to anyone about what I made. There’s no, I mean, it’s publicly available. There’s no negotiation. There’s no pay for extra things. So I think, like, it’s just totally different than what I am accustomed to.

Linzy: I think that’s so relevant because something that I noticed as, as a Canadian. So I’m Canadian, you’re American. This is one of the things that’s like so different about Canada and the United States is that in Canada, being a teacher is a well paid profession, 

Ashley: I have heard you say that, but I did not know that prior to working with you. 

Linzy: And this is something I’ve had to adjust to is when like my students talk about how like well I have this client and like she’s on sliding scale because she’s a teacher. Like it didn’t make sense to my brain at first because in Canada teaching is a profession where you make like 70, 80, 90… you get the summers off, like it’s a hard profession, but it’s like solid. I would say it still has maybe some of the issues with respect in terms of being like a feminized profession that people like expect everything of their teachers, but you’re getting paid well. Like it’s, you’re comfortable financially. But in the United States that is not the case. 

Ashley: Depends on the state and your experience. I will say that for me, my partner is also an educator and like we live comfortably, but we also are very careful about our budget and we’ve always just lived kind of simply, which has meant that it was fine, but absolutely like from state to state, there are differences in how well you are paid.And there are differences in level. Like I have a master’s. Like those things sometimes help, but not a lot, you know, you’re talking about a couple thousand dollars a year, maybe, for a difference. We’re not talking about 10, 000. So, you know, there are some things that you can do, but absolutely in our, in our partnership, we’ve always tried to just keep our debt low and those kinds of things so that we could live on their salaries.

But for sure, it is kind of taken for granted in the U. S. that when I say that I’m a teacher, people kind of assume a lot of things that have to do with financial stability and it’s because of that. So definitely both not super well paid and then also exactly what you said of you’re not only- that’s an expectation, but additionally, you should be staying after to give help. You should be- of course, I did English. So I always was grading at night and on the weekend. I was planning at night and on the weekend. And all of that you would never be compensated for. So I think again, I have to remind myself if I provide a service. I need to be paid for that service. And if that service is different than the thing that I originally offered, I need to say that. And that’s another financial pain point. It’s like, I would rather just let it go.

Linzy: yes, right, 

Ashley: I know this is not right, Linzy. Okay, I know, I know. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I’m here. It’s because I know I need to work through this. But basically, I would rather sit in that space than have to navigate saying, like, hey, I’m doing this thing and it’s taking this much time and I need to be compensated for it. So, like, that’s why I’m just like, okay, I need to deal with this as a business owner, or I’m going to continue to have these problems. 

Linzy: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Ashley: Because it’s kind of like the systems aren’t working for me. 

Linzy: No. Yeah and like what I’m hearing is there’s a certain amount of conditioning that, you know, would have come from your previous job. It’s not like you came from law where it’s like if you think about somebody while you’re brushing your teeth, you get to bill for that time. Right? Which is a very, very different frame around work and when you’re working and when you’re not and what’s valuable. 

Like you’re coming from a profession where it was expected that you’re doing all of this extra work beyond your work day and you couldn’t not do that. There’s no way that you could not grade people’s papers and be like, well, sorry, I wasn’t working. So that’s built in. And now you’re coming into your own business, or you’ve been in your own business, where you do need to think about charging for that time, like that, or you have the option of charging for that time.

Like, how do you think about the difference now in the work that you’re doing compared to, you know, when you were in teaching and you were on a salary?

Ashley: Yeah, I try to remind myself that I am only paid for the things I deliver. 

Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm 

Ashley: And that that means it’s okay to say, Hey, I’m delivering this, this and this. And we only originally talked about A, but now it’s A, B, and C. In my mind, I think I’m getting better at that. And then the other thing, and I mentioned this to you off mic, the other thing I’ve noticed is financially, I definitely needed to be making more. But then I feel like I don’t have any more time in my schedule. And so then I thought, okay, something is not right here. Because if I’m working full time, in a profession that again, in theory I should be able to do quite well in, and yet I’m not where I need to be financially, then something has to change. And some of that may need to be, like I may need to bring on some support, that may help me be more efficient with my time. So like there are some things that aren’t just package pricing. That would help I think, but also as I’m bringing on any new clients, I just want to be very strategic because I think based on what I’m seeing financially. I think that I probably am not pricing things the way I need to be pricing 

Linzy: Okay. Yeah. So let’s go back to that anxiety that does come up. Cause I’m hearing, like, you can see you should be able to get paid well for the work that you do. And I will say, as your client, I have said to people before, you know, cause I know that there’s podcast editors who do like $45 an episode, right? I’m aware that that’s out there. I made a very conscious choice to work with you and I’ve said this to you before, not just because you can like edit an episode and do decent audio, but because you hold the bandwidth, right? For our team, that’s extremely important that we have somebody. who can hold the bandwidth of whatever project they’re, you know, in charge of and is like, Oh, hey, this piece didn’t happen yet. Or like, hey, is this hanging around somewhere and I just haven’t seen it? Like where you’re actually managing the podcast, right? Because that’s extremely valuable for a small business owner like me, where it’s like, I have a lot of things that I’m managing. And there’s like my zones of genius where I can show up and like really shine. And that makes money that literally pays everybody else in our business, right? So I need to be putting my energy there. So you actually like running the podcast is much more valuable than kind of just somebody just editing, right. So there’s a lot of value that you’re bringing there in terms of how you do things. And so I will let you know that is like, I have recognized like I’m like I pay Ashley more and I’m very happy that I do because she’s doing so much more than somebody who’s just like oh okay I cleaned up like I took out the ums and ahs and I fixed the levels and here it is, and you do the rest, right. So there’s that value you’re definitely delivering in terms of the work that you’re doing. So, the anxiety. Let’s dig into that anxiety. It’s in your body. What do you notice happens? Like, you were saying there’s the waking in the middle of the night, the kind of like churning. Can you put more words to it?

Ashley: Yes, I find that I avoid, I mean, so it’s like the avoidance initially I will try not to have to deal with this, in fact that is a reason I am like reluctant right now to onboard more people because I’m just not looking forward to all the parts of that. And as far as the anxiety itself, I can tell myself I’m making the right decisions or that this is a necessary part. But I guess that there’s a fear of it not working out. There’s a fear that they’re going to say no. I mean, I’ve had to kind of decide that I’m not ever going to fill out the forms and stuff like that if it’s somebody who’s asking up front before even meeting us what the costs are. Because I think if they see that on a spreadsheet, again, there’s the people who will do it for 45. That is not the thing that is my special skill. I mean, I think what my special skill is, is working in a deep way with a team, and that I care about all that, and I, that is not going to change. If I’m standing with somebody, I am going to make sure that it’s polished. I’m going to make sure that it’s running on time. I’m going to make sure that the things that need to happen happen, and I’m going to help them brainstorm to figure out what to do when something goes awry. You know, all that stuff, and so that’s where I’ve realized that those are the parts that are hard to articulate when you are figuring out the pricing. But that, I think, is what is valuable. Like, that’s what I’ve noticed in testimonials I get from people. Like, that’s definitely the thing that seems to be different. And so, I know that. But I’ve still got to keep working through the discomfort, I think, that comes with talking about the money. Talking about that I’m offering a service.

Linzy: What I’m hearing is you see the value of what you do. You recognize that what you do is not what everybody does, and I think about you more as like a manager. What title do you use for yourself? How do you think about your job?

Ashley: Yeah, that’s a great question, and it is something I’ve had a hard time pinning down. I went to a conference recently, so I finally had to, this is another thing I procrastinated on, but I finally put podcast management, and what I often say is I put, like, audio and video editing also. If there’s a space to put extra things. But I have started saying podcast management for exactly that reason. And sometimes I say in post production because people know what that means, the like post production part. And sometimes people are kind of looking for that.

So I do find that it’s an area where people still are being educated about what the offerings are and what they mean. And so I try to use words that might make sense to people, but I have gotten away from just editor and have started saying management

Linzy: I’m really glad to hear you say that because I think that, too, is you owning the level of skill that you’re bringing to it, right? Like it’s one thing to be able to edit audio and that’s a specialized technical skill set, but that like people managing, relationship building, you know, as you said, like being part of a team, which you very much are part of our team, like that is a skill set that also I feel like doesn’t always overlap with the editing skills, right. It’s a little bit like my situation where it’s like, you have two distinct sets of skills that often don’t coincide, and that itself is really valuable that you offer these two very different things in one package.

Ashley: Thank you. And I do think that’s true, that I have to look at it as a strength, but it is also sometimes, I mean, it’s the emotional part of it can be really challenging for me. And that’s another thing I’ve had to realize is like if I’m working with the team and the team does not, like, they see me as kind of like I mean, it’s crude maybe to say, but kind of like a robot, you know, like that I, that I do the thing that they’re sending and that’s kind of it, that does not work for me.

And so there are partnerships that, you know, I’ve kind of been like, Oh, this is not the right fit because I’ve had to be like, I want people who care about that connection and that they value it also. And so, you know, again, like thinking about the packaging, but also how to present those things. That’s challenging. 

Linzy: Yes. Yeah, because what I’m hearing here is part of it is really owning, in therapy we would call it owning your niche, right? Like that you are offering something that’s very different and specific and also you’re a very specific kind of person, right?

So like I know when I was talking with my friend Maegan Megginson – who’s also chatting with you about podcast stuff – I’m like, she’s educated, she’s articulate, she’s kind, she’s responsible, like those kinds of things are really, really valuable. But part of it, I think, from a marketing perspective, is you owning those things to be able to like, be like, Hey, I’m educated, I’m articulate, I’m kind, I’m responsible, you know, and like owning that, cause that’s actually a big part of what you’re offering, right? Like, you’re not just doing audio editing or like giving us a spreadsheet, it’s like you are really emotionally intelligent and also technically gifted and really rooted in the podcast world.

Ashley: Well, thank you. That’s nice to hear, I really appreciate you saying that, and I think maybe that is something I really need to work on, is thinking about how to market that to people I don’t already work with, because that’s exactly it, is once I have those relationships, I feel good about them. I think that my partners feel good about them. It’s a good fit for everybody, and that part feels really good to me, and it’s satisfying. But then, you know, how do I help people see that? Because again, otherwise, I’m going to have to price in a way that is competing with people who aren’t offering any of those services. And then, I can’t sustain it, because again, I can only have a few partners. I mean, realistically, I think – you and I talked about that off mic – realistically, I can only have a few partners, because that’s the only way to do what I want to do and do it well. 

Linzy: Yes, because it’s a quality over quantity situation. Like you can’t have 10 podcasts you’re working on. 

Ashley: No. And there are people who do like 20 a week. I mean, it’s, it’s like the sessions and people talking about how many sessions can you handle a week and how do you make your numbers work, but also make your life work. And I haven’t figured that out yet, but I know that my number is very small in comparison to a lot of other people.

Linzy: Totally yeah, and and there very much is that parallel to therapy, like we talked about like there’s gonna be your specific thing that you’re doing right and like some things, like doing CBT, takes less emotional energy than doing like complex trauma, right? Like they’re just, you’re using kind of your brain a different way, you’re having to respond differently, but also then it’s just like you as a person, right? Like your energy, how much energy do you have as a person? What else in your life is happening? Like what other demands are coming up that you might have to make space for or that are just priorities to you? Like for me, this week, I mentioned to you off mic, I prioritized this week like taking a friend to the emergency room on Monday night… I left the emergency room for a bit went to a stand up comedy show, went back to be with her until she was finally admitted because that’s important to me, right. And like I could not have that be important to me and then it wouldn’t be on my schedule. But like, that’s actually a really important part of how I live my life. So I have to think about a business that’s going to let me do that. And not everything’s going to fall apart if I step out to to help a friend who, you know, needs support, right. And so that’s the other factor for you to think about too is like you’ve got your daughters and like you move a lot as a family because of your partner’s work, right. So like really owning those pieces of your life too, to think about what, how many clients could you actually work with in the way that you like to work, in the life that you like to have. And I’m curious with that, Ashley, like, is there a number that rises to the surface for you if you really think about that?

Ashley: I used to think five was doable and these days that feels like too much. So I do think it has to do with frequency of release if i’m working with everybody, if everybody’s doing podcasts and I have supported people a little bit in other things. So that makes a difference like if I did an audiobook or if I did- I’m helping somebody edit all their courses, and so that pacing is different, and I still like that relationship, but I do also like that it does not have the imminent 5 a.m. deadlines that I experience for my podcast partners. So it does make a difference as far as how frequently they release, but I would say five or less, and realistically, maybe more like three.

Linzy: Three is the number that was coming up for me. I don’t know why.

Ashley: Thank you, 

Linzy: It’s in the air. It’s in the air. Yeah. Yeah. So three. Okay. So if you think about three then, do you know what price point you need to be, you know, working out with those three partners or what the total needs to be per month for you to contribute what you need to contribute to your household?

Ashley: It’s been hard for me to say. I think my first goal was, and I started this in the spring of 2021, so I worked the academic year of 2021, and then I left that job in the summer. And I was still paid through the summer for my teaching position. So I got a little cushion there, but that’s kind of when I started was spring, summer 2021. And my initial goal was just to replace my salary, which was about like 55, 000.

Linzy: Mmhm.

Ashley: I did that. I did, over time, I did replace that, but I was, there were all the balls up in the air all the time, and I was like, oh my goodness, I kind of set this financial goal as a way to decide how many people to take on, and then I met my goal, but at a very high cost, and so then I thought, okay, I need to look at this in another way, you know, when it can’t just be about meeting the financial goal.

And then ultimately what I have realized is that I’m not sure that I’m satisfied with that amount either. And I think that’s been hard. I’ve listened to you talk with people about this, but I think we just have to be honest with ourselves about what we really need financially. And it makes me uncomfortable to realize that I think our family needs more than we thought we did, and that’s because, you know, I have a seven and a nine year old. They’re getting older, but I mean, I’m just like, I feel, people probably relate to this, I feel like we’re like burning our money in the street. I mean, sometimes I’m sort of like, where is it all going? Because I think we have relatively secure jobs and yet, It’s not enough.

So I have kind of thought, I mean, I’m not even at that number now because I did let go of a big partner. Linzy knows a little bit about this, but basically I let go of somebody because our family was going overseas for a little while. It was the right move for me. I was doing a lot of work that was not in my niche, as you said, and that was good for the short term, but it was preventing me from figuring out what my passion is and really making sure all my partnerships do that and match that passion. And so I let go of that. Well, because of that, I have a deficit and so I feel this friction between what I see and believe can happen. But have to be patient for. And then what I see right now on my bank account where I see that the money going out is a lot more than the money coming in and that is not a great feeling.

So, you know, kind of dealing with that. I mean, I don’t think we’re in crisis. We’re fortunate that we can survive that deficit for a period of time, but it doesn’t feel good.

Linzy: No, no, of course not. Okay. Okay. So right now you’re actually in the negative of where you need to be. So we’re not even talking about lifestyle improvement. We’re just talking about like your money catching up to your life. 

Ashley: Yes. And the other big factor is, we’ll have another client that they, for lots of reasons that make a lot of sense, they’re going to be dissolving probably. So like that could transition and I could work with a new partnership there, you know, like in their company. But if I lose that, it’s going to be a big loss and that could happen imminently. And so that’s kind of new for me also that again, teaching, maybe you don’t make a ton, but you have a lot of security. Like, I felt very secure in that, and so, like, learning to live with the ups and downs has been really hard. 

Linzy: Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And with the kind of work that you’re talking about too, like, it’s a little bit different than therapy work because therapy work tends to be like, I have this many spots, oh, two spots opened, but already my website’s out there. Already people have been checking me out. I’m already getting inquiries. I can fill those two spots. Like, but with you, it’s like, maybe you have three clients. We get to the point where you have three clients. If one client leaves, it’s like a third of your income is gone, right? And then you have to look around to find that other third of your income again, which is a significant, significant hit. You have all your eggs in – or many eggs – in one basket. no other baskets.

Ashley: Right. 

Linzy: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes. Yes, that’s a great analogy.

Linzy: So I’m going to bring us back to that anxiety again, because we keep circling it, but we haven’t actually gotten to it. I’m curious, like, what is the fear? Like what is the thing that you really fear happening that your body is telling you about?

Ashley: I think that it won’t work. That I will make changes that in some ways feel a little selfish, like letting go of that client, I do think was the right thing for me, but it impacts my family. It impacts my family financially and kind of immediately. And that felt like a big risk. And knowing that I’m going to have to keep doing that kind of thing causes me anxiety.

And immediately when the client, who we might dissolve here coming up, when they called me, right after that, I went on the… Greenville County is where we live. The Greenville County School Board, of course, there’s a million jobs posted. And immediately I was like, oh, I could just apply. I could apply for next year. And so there’s this idea of, and of course my partner comes home and is like, Let, let’s- 

Linzy: Yeah. 

Ashley: -take a breath and talk about all the things you could do that are not that. And I loved the classroom, but I needed to leave when I left. So, like, I needed to for myself, I needed to for my family, and I know that.

So I have to just keep reminding myself that even though there is comfort in thinking about a W2 position that has a very steady income and that doesn’t have these, like, ebbs and flows. There is comfort in that, but I know in my mind that that is not the pathway I want to be on and that I’ve worked hard to get here.

I’ve worked hard the last two and a half years to build this space and create these partnerships who, you know, and I’m very, I’m very attached to your team. I’m attached to the other teams I work with, and so while I recognize that there will be changes, and of course people will have to move on for lots of reasons, that, that I need to learn to live with.

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah, and I wonder, what makes it worth it to have to weather that?

Ashley: I think I have found that I am skilled at helping people see why a podcast is really valuable and how it can really build their community. Reach people who they would not reach otherwise. And so I really love that. I mean, I have my own that we have stayed with despite all the ups and downs for since 2018.

And it’s been hard. But I think that there have been times where we thought it would fall apart. And I realized I wasn’t ready to let it go. And so then I had to be like, what is it that I love about this so much that I am not willing to let it go. And so I think I feel passionate about the creation. I love to create also.

And so I think I love that creating. And then, you know, I work from home. And I love the flexibility I have with that. And that was a big help for our family. So before when I was working, you know, I’m in the building all day. My partner’s at a university all day. And the kids need anything. It always felt like complete chaos every time somebody’s schedule didn’t run exactly the way it was supposed to and I was just so tired of that cycle of just feeling like we’re constantly one step from total disaster.

And so I do feel like this job, even though I have this part that I got to figure out and make feel better, I feel way way more present with my kids. I feel way more flexible with my day And all of that feels really good because before I did, you know, make some changes within education, like I left the English classroom, I went into instructional technology, and I did that to try to dial down the amount of energy I was expending throughout the day.

And it did help, but I still came home running very close to empty. I mean, I’m a highly sensitive person. I love working with kids, but I also carry every bit of work, what they have going on, and that was fine before I had my own kids and then once I had them I was just like, This does not work. This does not work.

And I felt like I knew that you know – my oldest daughter is nine and a half – I knew that the moment she was born, basically, I was like something has to change.

Linzy: Yes, yeah, and I relate to that very much. I just was having a memory yesterday of a mentor of mine, who’s actually a mother of one of my friends, sent me a card after my son was born and was like, you know, having a child is going to let you understand your clients at a whole new level.

And I just remember thinking, no, I don’t, I don’t want to. That for me was like a very clear like, no, I actually don’t want to like have to be doing all of that emotional work and that intensity and rawness and like, yeah, carrying all that stuff and also like parenting this tiny human. I knew that for me, those things were not compatible and it sounds like for you, it was a similar realization. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah Yeah, yeah. And I felt like I did something and I did it for like six years that I felt like made it more containable and it taught me all these skills. I mean, this is how I got into the tech stuff was like making that change. So I felt like it was worth it. But even that I was ready, you know, the pandemic came and we really saw how hard it can be to try to keep everything afloat.

And so even though things have gotten back to normal in a lot of ways, I started to value the flexibility of being able to do what I needed to do when I needed to do it. And that was never a possibility before. You know, going to the dentist, taking a kid to the dentist, I mean stuff that, those just like basic logistical things were kind of impossible before.

And so that part is very freeing and makes it worth it for me to do the hard work of like, figuring out all the business side of this. Because that is the part that does not come easily to me. The relationships come great. The tech itself is fine. When I don’t know, it’s no problem for me to learn, those things are all very easy. But the business part is just, continues to be painful.

Linzy: Okay. As I’m listening to you, I’m hearing a couple things. First of all, I’m hearing the structure of this work is great for you, right? Like the flexibility, and like you’re not depleting yourself, you’re not coming home almost empty, right? Like you have the energy for your kids now, instead of kind of absorbing from other kids all day long. And then I’m also hearing you love being part of a team. You get to use this blend of skills that you have, this kind of emotional, relational intelligence that you have, as well as these tech pieces. I’m curious, like, when you think about all of the good stuff about your work, all of these pieces, like, what do you notice in your body?

Ashley: I mean, I think I feel proud. I think that I realized that I’ve made something and it was something I never, I mean… I never would have thought I’d be in tech. I never thought I’d be in business. And so I think I feel proud of that, and I did realize, like, when I had one partnership that was more of an employee situation, I realized I didn’t want that. Like, I actually wanted the freedom to feel like I’m in charge. I mean, I serve other people, and I enjoy serving them, but I’m in charge of my path, and that’s, like, really important to me. 

Linzy: Yeah. Okay, okay. So that being in charge of your path then, is there any kind of like image or feeling that comes with that? Let’s build that out a little bit. What do you think of when you think of being in charge of your path? 

Ashley: I think that there is a way that I can serve people that I’m not currently serving them. And so I have this like feeling, and I mean I’ve learned this in part from you and from hearing people talk about like programs and just other ways of kind of fleshing out what they do and taking their genius but offering it in a different way.

And so I have this feeling that maybe there’s a way that I can help people that’s not quite as intense as the partnerships. And I think if I could do that, I think I would enjoy it. I love to talk to people and be connected. And it’s funny because I’m like so introverted, but now that I work at home all the time, and I’m by myself all the time, I’m also like, oh gosh, like where are the people, you know?

And so, I think I would like the connection part, and I just don’t know what it looks like yet, and I think that I have some obstacles, some of them are the financial ones, you know, it’s just like pricing, navigating what are the offerings, but also it’s just some logistical things like locking down, narrowing it down, figuring out what exactly is the thing I want to offer, and then it gets into the marketing and stuff, which is a conversation for another day, but that is a huge barrier for me, because right now, I function through referral.

I have been able to do that. It’s been very comfortable, whereas this would require me to be more present in digital spaces in a way that I have very much chosen not to be 

Linzy: hmm. I understand that. I can relate to that. Yeah, because like what I’m hearing here is on one hand, I’m hearing, you know, there’s a part of you, and I’m gesturing to my chest, which I guess this is going to be a video, so some folks will actually see what I’m doing. Those of you listening, just to the audio will not see this, but I’m gesturing to my chest to all this anxiety that’s in your body, right? So like, there’s a part of you that’s really afraid of kind of sticking your neck out and taking up space. But then I’m hearing another part of you that knows that you have even more to offer than what you’re doing now. And you could reach even more people and have more impact in a way that costs you less. Than you do, like, even more than you are now. Right? Like, there’s even more potential here for, like, connection and, and getting what you know out to the people who, you know, can make great podcasts and make a difference in the world. I’m hearing kind of these two different parts there. Does that, does that feel familiar? That there’s kind of that duality to it?

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And it’s, I mean, and those two feel both in opposition and kind of in friction and yeah, so it’s again, cause it’s kind of like, there’s maybe an easier or faster path that’s going to feel more financially stable and that will help, you know, because again, I feel like if my family doesn’t get to do a thing because I made these choices, like there is an impact that I’m aware of, but then I also am like, I can’t go that direction and build out something that I don’t currently have if I don’t make space to do that. 

Linzy: Yeah. And it makes me wonder, like, the part of you that’s really afraid, right, this anxious part, what does that part of you need to know, the part of you that can have this, like, owning this excitement and realizing you have even more to offer the world, what, does that anxious part need to know?

Ashley: I think I need to trust that it is okay to let more money go out than come in for a period of time. Because I think I am very comfortable with always making sure that I’ve paid off everything all the time, and you know, we have a mortgage, but like, beyond that, like, we really just try to, like, always pay off our credit cards every month and things like that, and so I think I need to say, it’s okay to dip into some savings, maybe, to help cover this for a little bit, I think I’m always calculating, like, have I met my goal?

 And again, like, initially it was just, I just wanted to cover my salary because I felt like then, I guess I felt like that proved that it was okay to do this other thing because it was worth as much. And again, I mean, I know that’s kind of silly, but I think I’m stuck on that. I’ve like, I’m always like, oh, but I’m down this much from what I thought I needed to be making. And so I think maybe just giving permission for that is necessary to be able to try to go this other route. And then I feel like I need help to get some of those steps and figuring out that help is a big barrier. I mean, I think, you know, just I’m sure that a lot of people relate to this. It’s like I’m used to running my own show and it’s hard for me to find the right people who I really can trust and who I believe are going to do the level of work I want them to do. It’s just easier for me to just do it myself. So I think I need to let of a little.

Linzy: Which is a, you know, conversation for another time. But, yeah, because what I’m hearing in this is like, it’s almost like you need to trust yourself to make an investment in your business.

And part of that investment is right now making the space, maybe finding the right teacher to help you make courses, work on your marketing, own your branding and your niche, like whatever strategic step you decide is the next right step for your business, like somebody to help you do that, and part of the investment actually is going to be not making yourself just like make money right away and draw into these savings a little bit because you’re building something bigger and more solid and more in the direction of where you want to go. What do you think about that framing of this is an investment like you’re- and in fact you’re actually investing with your your buffer. Like money from the past. You’re not even going into like a debt for this, it sounds like at this moment you’re more just digging into savings to make the space to build something bigger or more in alignment with what’s actually going to make your heart sing or however you want to phrase that.

Ashley: I love that. I love that. I think that looking at it as an investment makes it feel like a strategic move instead of like a big risk or almost careless. Like it makes it feel like it is a purposeful decision instead of, you know, being lazy to not take those next steps or being careless because I think those are some of the things that come up when I’m in the anxiety space is just this like criticism of like, oh, but I could be doing ABCD and that is true but if I did those I know that there’s consequences for that and so then you know Trying to use what I’ve learned over the past several years to make a wise, long term move instead of solve the problem. But I do want to just solve the problem. Definitely my first impulse is like, just stick the band aid on there. Gaping wound? I don’t care.

Linzy: It’s fine. It’s fine. I’ve got Band Aids. Paw Patrol Band Aids. Yeah, because part of investing and like part of the difference between investing and just having a business that’s losing money continually or not supporting you continually is you need to be able to trust yourself to do the things to make this an investment. Right? That’s the difference between an investment period and just a business that isn’t working. In an investment period, the money might not look like you want it to look. You might be in the negative. You might be drawing into savings, but you’re like, I’m doing this with a plan. And my plan is, first I’m gonna do this, by the end of this quarter I’m gonna be here, I’m gonna be building these relationships, I’m gonna get help from this mentor who I really trust, and by this point I’m gonna be launching my courses, or I’m gonna have my like very specific packages with my new language that really like articulates exactly what I do that’s different, like you have a plan and you’re working a plan, rather than like, eh, it’ll be fine. Right? Or like, I’m just not going to look at that. Right? And like, that’s the big difference. And like, sometimes I talk about this when people ask me about, like, taking on business debt, too. Like, do you take on, like, a business line of credit? And it’s like, debt can be strategic if you’re being strategic. Right? And that’s what I’m hearing here. This is actually an opportunity. It sounds like a window or an opening for you to be strategic and part of what I’m hearing like, going back to this original piece we talked about, about giving some pricing to a current or a new potential partner, and like waiting to hear back from them and that like churning is part of it is trusting that you’re building something that is better and if somebody doesn’t value what you’re offering and isn’t willing to pay you what you actually need to live, then they’re not a fit for your relationship. Like, it’s not the right relationship for your business. And there will be somebody else who is, right? But that’s, that’s really like trusting in your vision and trusting yourself to work your vision until you make it happen. How does that land with you? 

Ashley: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think just reframing it, what I really am walking away hearing is thinking of it as an investment period makes it feel a lot better, because I think otherwise… it’s hard to justify making less when you know you could be making more right now. I mean, I could pick up stuff today, that I’m getting paid way too little for. That I could, you know, rush through and send to people.

And I know that. And so, there’s both comfort in that, because that’s nice, that there is something to do. I mean, that’s, all of that’s so new to me also, I can control what I make to a certain extent. I’ve never had that experience before. 

Linzy: Something else that this is something that I teach in like the group practice level, where you do have like this bigger business and there’s like up months and down months, is like zooming out on your business, right? Like your business is not a paycheck.

It’s not about one month at a time. It’s not about like this month I’m this much in deficit. Like we really actually want to be looking at your business from like a 12 month perspective. And it could be that when you look at the 12 months coming to the end of this year, you’re like yeah, we started slow in quarter one when I was kind of like letting go of some partners, looking for new ones, hadn’t found the right people yet, hadn’t really figured out how to articulate what I was doing, but like look at what happened in quarter three, and then we ended the year like in this place, or there was like this much extra, or I, now I’m able to pay myself this much, right?

Like having that zoomed out perspective, because anxiety tends to zoom us way in. Right? Like we’re thinking about like right now. Because anxiety is about survival. It’s about fear and survival. It’s like, there’s a tiger. What do I do right now? Right? But that’s actually not financially strategic and also what I’m hearing is like, you could “fix” this, I’m putting that in quotations, right now if you want by picking up low paying work that you don’t feel good about or going back to the school board, which you know has all these other costs, but long term that’s actually not going to get you where you want to be.

Ashley: Yes, absolutely.

Linzy: So Ashley, coming into the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Ashley: I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. And I think I just appreciate, I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not, all the negative things that come up. And I love your ideas also about how to share what I offer and how it’s different. And I think that I really could do a lot with that because I don’t feel like anything- when I think about things I’ve sent to people before, I don’t feel like I have done that. So, you know, trying to think about- and again, that gives me a little bit of I still don’t want to do the marketing part, but it does help me think about, like, how that could be valuable just for people getting to know me. Yeah, that would be a space where I can showcase that a little bit more than like on a flat document that just kind of itemizes. 

Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you need a lot more feelings words in your marketing and a lot more adjectives about how you work, right? Because I will say, like, I’ve referred you now a couple of folks. Like, I think the, the course that you’re editing is like from one of our guests who, like, we made a joke in the podcast. Like, Oh yeah, my editor could do your course. And then afterwards you were like, were they serious? And I was like, I think they were serious. And now you’re doing that work, right?

So it’s like, I think you’re, you’re getting into, a space where there’s going to be lots of folks, like, folks that I know, and probably through other partners, too, who would really value what you do. And you being able to articulate, this is what I do, this is how it’s different, this is what really distinguishes me from the space where it’s like a lot of bros with plaid shirts doing audio editing. Like, I’m not that, and I’m all these other things, is really valuable and it’s helping, just helping folks understand why that’s so much more valuable than just having somebody edit episodes and send them back to you and be like, good luck. 

Ashley: Yes, right, maybe I need to think more about the contrast.

Linzy: Yes, the contrast. Yeah, because that’s what sets you apart, right? And it’s that whole thing of like marketing is also repelling the people who aren’t for you. So if there’s somebody who’s like, I don’t really want somebody to be part of my team and I don’t really want somebody who’s going to be like showing up and asking questions and like, you know, I just want somebody that can send stuff to and I’m not really gonna have a relationship, then you’re not for them. Right? And that’s great that you know that.

Ashley: Yes.

Linzy: So Ashley, do you want to tell people about your podcast? 

Ashley: Sure. So my own podcast is about books and I work with a teacher as my co host and it’s called Unabridged and we do a book club every month and we just talk all things bookish. So if you love books, then that’s great. And then I love working with emotionally intelligent clients in the podcast space. And my name, AshleyDicksonEllison.com is my website where you can learn more, though I will be updating my marketing to have more feeling words

Linzy: But yes, I know folks who are listening do have podcasts so if you are looking for podcast support, I am going to plug Ashley right here on this podcast that then she’s going to edit. This is all very circular. Having somebody who has the expertise to walk you through the podcast world is so, so, so, so valuable and we appreciate you. We appreciate you, Ashley. So thank you for being our podcast manager and thank you for coming on the podcast today.

Ashley: Thanks, Linzy.

Linzy: In my conversation with Ashley today, there was… in the back of my mind there was like some sort of image or metaphor that I was never able to really pull forward and articulate. But it is something about kind of stepping out on your own, right. And when you are stepping out on your own, whether it’s into private practice or into some sort of other kind of side business that maybe you’re even doing in addition to your private practice ’cause I know so many therapists have other gifts and talents… When you are stepping out of that kind of safety of having a salary, that often costs us in all these other ways, like Ashley talked about, you know, like so emotionally draining to be a teacher using up all of her energy, but it’s safe, right?

When we step outta that safety and we step into having our own businesses, it is scary. Like that is true. And I think that often we think that that’s something specific or, you know, deficient about us if we’re feeling really like anxious or scared in that process. But there really is something about stepping out on your own and taking up that space, and having to start to really own your gifts and be like, this is what I do. This is what it’s worth. You might not like it. You might say no to it or knowing what you do, but not having found your people yet. Like that building stage of really growing into, it’s kind of growing into your brand, being able to articulate what you’re offering and then having to like find your people and figure out how to price it. It is scary, and it’s hard and I kind of am getting this image in my head of like… I don’t know, like being out in the desert or a field, and you’re kinda like by yourself, but you’re also building something and that’s so powerful to build something that is yours. But also it’s kind of scary and exposing and lonely. And you know, I’m, I’m hearing that in what Ashley’s saying, like she has that spark. She knows what she offers and how it’s different from what other people are offering, and she’s like starting to be able to recognize and thinking about how to articulate that more. But it is also scary to kind of stake your ground and be like, this is me. This is what I do, this is what I’m good at. And folks might take it or leave it, and it takes time to find your people. And that’s true in all businesses, including private practice. So I’m really, I’m really excited for Ashley. She’s wonderful. So if you are looking for a podcast manager, reach out to her. I’m really excited and honored to be working with her and getting her support as she’s also building a business that is more and more her. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s super, super helpful for us if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can share what your favorite episode is or what you enjoy about the episodes. It is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of the conversation. Thanks for listening today. 

Laura Bull [00:00:00] There has to be some kind of synchronicity. There has to be certainly a clearing and repair process going on. If there’s any kind of relational tension to go into the group and imagine one can suppress that and not have it affect the system is silliness when the business needs our attention, but we’re in tension. There’s sort of this clearing the desk. Nothing productive is going to happen until you and I get back into right relatedness. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist the podcast, where we answer this question how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today on the podcast I have Steph and Laura. Steph and Laura are the founders, and they’re the clinical directions of Shoreline Counseling in British Columbia, which is a group practice. They’re also the hosts of the “A Not So Private Practice” podcast, where they share about their experiences with their business partnership, which we’re gonna be chatting about today. They talk about friendship and business and all things private practice. And they also mention including their love of budgeting. And Steph and Laura are currently in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. So I asked them to come onto the podcast, even though we’ve only been working together for a month, because they have a really impressive business partnership. And something that I mentioned in this episode and that I see over and over again. Well, two things. One is the idea that group practice is an easy way to make money. And so folks, if they’re busy and folx think, well, I guess I should just start a group practice because that’s a way to make more money. That’s not true, by the way. Group practice is actually pretty, complicated financially, to make it work. They’ll talk about that a little bit today. But number two is: I see folks forming partnerships with, you know, somebody that they work with, a friend, because they also think that that will be easier. And as Steph and Laura talk about today, business partnerships can be easier if you put in all the work to actually take care of that relationship. So today on the podcast, Steph and Laura are going to share about their own business partnership, how they have navigated conflicts, how they navigate conversations around money, and some of the challenges that still exist in their business partnership around money and how they are working on those. Here is my conversation with Steph and Laura. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:36] So, Stef and Laura, welcome to the podcast. 

Laura Bull [00:02:39] Thank you. 

Steph Davis [00:02:40] Thanks. Thanks so much for having us. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:41] Yeah, I’m really excited to have both of you on here. Something that I’m really excited about is you two have a business partnership, which I think is something that a lot of therapists, when they think about maybe expanding from solo practice into group practice or some sort of larger offering, often consider partnerships thinking that it’s kind of like it would be easier to start something with a friend. And you two have walked that path for a while now. Can you tell folks a little bit about the history of your business partnership to get us grounded and your history together? 

Steph Davis [00:03:15] Yeah, Laura, that’s a you question. Go ahead. 

Laura Bull [00:03:17] Yeah, sure. We probably have a bit of a unique beginning together because we, what’s not unique is we used to work in a different practice. I’m sure other folks have that experience, but that practice dissolved under the weight of some very serious allegations. And, Steph and I sort of became really bonded through the fire of that. Like, we became aware of a lot of the misconduct that was going on. And I became aware before she did, and she was actually the very first person I ever told. I was holding these really big secrets about someone who I had trusted for a long time, who had been, clinical supervisor to me for a long time and couldn’t quite reckon with how I had had what I thought was a meaningful clinical experience. I couldn’t reckon that with this information that was coming my way about what seemed like a totally contrary person. And so I held on to that information secretly for a while. And then, Steph, I think through a number of circumstances, I don’t know what it was. We hadn’t been friends for very long before, but we just kept having these little conversations. And something in my gut was just like, she’s the person. Like, If I’m going to tell anyone, she’s the person I’m going to tell. And it was a heavy weight. I knew that this information was going to come with lots of action. And so it wasn’t something I wanted to share lightly. It wasn’t something I really wanted to burden anyone with, to be honest. But I did tell Steph, and she and I did end up taking a lot of action, a lot of legal and movement action, to against some of these very serious things that we found out were going on. So we came together in this very dire season, certainly of my life, and she became this like very, very, very trustworthy person that, you know, she was going through her own emotional reactions, but she was doing a lot to support me as I was sort of unraveling everything that I had thought this ten year clinical career of mine had meant, what was still true, what wasn’t true. So that’s kind of we came together there and somewhere in the midst of us knowing we were fleeing, leaving this place, the last thing on my mind was starting a business. Literally the last, like probably even more, the last was being a leader, like leading other people. At that time, as I was reckoning with this leader who, just was not at all what I had thought they were. So this is sort of where Steph enters the story. 

Steph Davis [00:06:07] Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was a really awful time. And, you know, definitely more impactful emotionally for Laura than it was for me. So I had kind of the privilege of just sort of like holding a bit more of a container around, like, what does this mean for us? And there were a number of people in this practice that were affected by this. And, you know, to me, I was like, this might be a cool opportunity. Like, we have to leave here and leaving people behind that we’re in the dark about this, but would be affected by this, once it all came to light, didn’t feel right for us. And so, you know what initially started as like the pursuit of an office space for Laura and myself to maybe take on a student or two and to just kind of hide ourselves out and away from all of the unfolding drama. What started out as that, evolved into this idea that “Oh, we have to be a bit of a refuge”, like we have an opportunity here to support these other clinicians and this practice full of clients that we’re all going to be somehow impacted by this. And so that, you know, amidst all the conflicting, confusing emotion that was like what excited me, I was like, let’s do this thing. And Laura was like, oh, okay, I’m with you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:26] It kind of sounds like a I’m picturing like a couple things. I’m picturing like a phoenix rising situation. Right where it’s like this intense, what I’m heating from you, Laura, is like this intense loss and probably like betrayal and questioning of like what is real and identity, and with this relationship, with this person, who had done these things that you can’t reconcile with your experience of them. So there’s all of this pain, trauma, but then it’s also knowing that you need to get yourselves out of there. It’s like, well, we also need to take everybody else with us, which is a very therapist thing to do, by the way. 

Steph Davis [00:07:57] Yeah, totally. We were like foreseeing all the, you know, suffering. That was and that’s this thing unraveled. And it was, it was another layer of like in tolerability.

Linzy Bonham [00:08:08] Yeah, that’s really interesting because it’s you kind of stepped into leadership roles out of a crisis, really. It’s like there was a leadership. It sounds to me like there was a leadership void that was opened up by this person who, you know, had these allegations against them and was no longer going to be able to create this structure for these folks. So there was this void and it sounds like, Steph, what I’m hearing from you is like excitement to step into that void. That’s opportunity. And Laura, you were like, “okay, I guess I’ll come too”. Is that a fair summary?

Steph Davis [00:08:39] Yeah. Sort of. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:40] Okay. Sort of, sort of, yeah. What would you say was different about it? Tell me Steph. 

Steph Davis [00:08:44] I think that, I mean there was more of a power struggle than a void, for sure. At the time, you know, this person was not letting go of this lightly, like it was quite an intense time. I mean, we literally snuck out in the dead of night. We, like, went in there, took our stuff, secretly, moved all our clients over. The whole thing was really secretive. And then once we got going, I think, ok Laura, you tell me if this is right. I don’t know if it’s true, but there is more and more balance that was that we were finding with each other in this process. Where as much as it was emotional and hard and traumatic, you know, and so deeply impactful for Laura in so many ways. As the momentum for the business got going, she was the one pioneering a lot of stuff, like finding the space, getting it sorted. And there was I don’t know if it’s true to say, but it felt like we sort of kind of collided on this, like energetic path towards this future that we’re building, which is when things really started to click and take off, you know. Does that feel true Laura? I don’t know. 

Laura Bull [00:09:44] Yeah, I know it does. But I’m trying to find language actually for it, as you say it, because I had profound self-doubt around my ability to be a leader at that time because I was like, my modeling for leadership turns out to be really poor. And so I was really scared of accidentally repeating some of the really poor leadership qualities that I had been under for so long. And yeah, like once the decision was made. I mean, Linzy, you’re getting to know this part of me. I have this thing sometimes where I get excited about a new idea, and then I just don’t stop. Like when you get voice memos from me at 1:00 am because I’m like, I’m really excited about something like. That turned on whatever part of me, it clicked on. And I was like, if we’re going to do this, then we’re going to do it. Like we’re going to do it full, big, excellent. And so those little bubbles of life force, I think, started to move around my system, and I felt really sheltered. Steph was like, this is going to be great, we’re going to do it. And I was like, okay, I don’t know if it’s going to be great, but I feel you walking ahead of me. I feel a little sheltered by you, walking ahead of me. And within that shelter, now I got to be part of this. I want to see what we can do to make this possible. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:01] That’s actually a really good visual description of what I, you know, have been experienced of your dynamic. So we’ve been working together now for a month basically, you know, and you to have back pocket access. So we talk on WhatsApp by voice which is always like I find much more personal. You know, we get to know each other a lot faster. And that’s actually a really good description, Laura, because I have been trying to kind of articulate in my mind what is your dynamic? Because it isn’t just like a pure yin yang. It’s not that simple, the two of you. But yeah, I hear what you’re saying. It’s like Steph. Steph has that sturdiness and aheadness. And then in that, you can get really excited and thrive. 

Steph Davis [00:11:33] Yeah, I mean Linzy, well you’ve been on vacation over the course of the last week. I have been taken out by Laura’s intense desire to just push ahead. I’m like, I’ve been like thrown to the side. And she is now, like, officially leading the charge here. It’s up. It is reflective of what happens between us often. You know there is this constant back and forth around the vision and the logistics and the details and who’s taking the lead and who’s sheltering who. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:04] That’s so interesting. It brings to mind, to me a metaphor that a friend of mine, years ago when I was learning how to drive standard. I learned how to drive standard in my mid-20s, and I had two friends, two male friends who taught me how to drive standard, because I basically bought a standard vehicle and I did not know how to drive it. So it’s like my roommate and one of my friends who was a paramedic, they taught me how to drive standard at like 25 years old. And I remember one of my friends making this analogy about him and, and a different friend of ours, like one of them was kind of like that first gear that kind of like, gets you going and has that initial push. But then the other one was gear five, now you’re rolling. And that’s kind of what I’m hearing, you kind of shift gears between the two of you in terms of getting things going, but then keeping it going. But then, you know, maybe you slow down a little. So, there is this beautiful interplay between the two of you, which is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the podcast, even though we’ve only been working together for a month. Because I think so many folks step into business partnerships because they think it’s going to make things easier, right? That it’s kind of the easy option. But what I often see is that business partnerships are not successful and they don’t work and they fall apart. And folks who loved each other end up actually not only not in being business partners, but not being friends anymore. Right? It can be a great way to kill a friendship. And what I see in your relationship is something so much more mature than so many business relationships. So, you know, this is a podcast about money. I want to dig into that side of your relationship now that we have a sense of where you’ve come from. For the two of you, what have been some of your biggest money challenges or financial challenges of navigating being in a business partnership together and building something together, and also being these two kind of different people? 

Steph Davis [00:13:43] Yeah, I can kind of segue in just from what you were saying. I mean, I work with a lot of therapists in a coaching capacity, and my takeaway is that being a partnership is easier in a lot of ways. And the amount of work that Laura and I do on our relationship and on our partnership is almost as much as we do on our business. Because as you say, it won’t work otherwise. And our relationship is actually the thing that’s most important to us. And so when we’re out of sync or when we’re not working, things are kind of just like a fray, you know? And so, I think we have these two ways that we navigate. Kind of like two codes essentially, that we use to like navigate our relationship. And when it comes to our conversations about money, the first one is the thing that we live by, which is essentially that we refuse to hold resentment towards each other. We’re just going to have those hard conversations all the time. Whenever there’s resentment, we are going to sit down and we’re going to do that work with each other, because our friendship depends on it and our business depends on it. Laura, you want to frame it a little differently? 

Laura Bull [00:14:55] Yeah. I mean, I lead a lot of groups. I got a lot of training from a lot of brilliant group therapists early in my career. And one of the things I sort of live by is that if I always co-lead, I rarely lead on my own. But if the two group leaders are in relational tension, the group will be in tension. It’s a systems approach, essentially. And so what I was taught from the get go is the leaders have to be, there has to be some kind of synchronicity. There has to be certainly a clearing and repair process going on if there’s any kind of relational tension, because to go into the group and imagine one can suppress that and not have it affect the system is silliness. And so Steph and I, we know that, when the business needs our attention but we’re in tension. There’s sort of this clearing the desk, just shove all the papers off the desk because nothing productive is going to happen until you and I get back into right relatedness. So I think we prioritize that mostly because we really like each other and because the thing that would be the most soul-crushing is if our friendship breaks down here. And we sort of joke that we’re more legally bound than we are to our spouses. That’s actually not a joke. That’s actually true. 

Steph Davis [00:16:12] Yeah, yeah. 

Laura Bull [00:16:13] It’d be harder to get out of our arrangement than the spousal arrangements. So there’s a lot of good reason to work on it, but also, like, she’s just so important to me. I don’t care as much about the business breaking down as this friendship breaking down. And I think the business benefits greatly from that.

Steph Davis [00:16:34] Yeah. We care so deeply about each other that we’re always working on that. First and foremost, you know. 

Laura Bull [00:16:41] So, money though. The hardest thing for sure is resentment, which Steph has already spoken to. And resentment shows up the most because we’re equal partners in terms of our corporation documentations, but we don’t do equal amounts of work. And so reckoning that over the years, I think you’d agree, Steph has been definitely the most challenging. And I have spent many nights over the last five years talking to my husband, being like, oh my God, I know it’s not fair. What if she resents me? And really I’m saying, like, what if our friendship ends then we never make it back? But that’s the thing that feels the most scary to me is what if we can’t work it out? What if this resentment grows? What if she walks away feeling bitter at me? And I would hate that. And so that really fuels these: what are we going to do? What are we going to do about the inequalities in our partnership? 

Steph Davis [00:17:35] Yeah, I mean, the most glaring example. So I had said, there are two codes that we live by. And the second one is that we promised each other that we would not allow the business to stop us from doing what we need to do in our lives. And that we would be, you know, on board to support each other with however our lives unfolded and wouldn’t let the business stand in the way. This is the best example of how this inequity has shown up over the years. Was it two years ago? Three years ago? Two years ago, Laura decided to have another baby and we were three years into the practice or two years into the practice, and we were in the midst of opening a second location. I generally carry more of the administrative burden of the practice to start with, and that just became tenfold when Laura went on maternity leave. And we’re renovating and opening a second office and trying to keep this office afloat. And it was it was a lot. And there were a lot of resentment conversations and a lot of money conversations around how we were going to make this equitable, financially so that we could reckon some of the resentment and repair what needed to be repaired. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:47] And with that, did you figure it out? Have you figured out how to address that inequity or make it equitable, make it fair? Laura’s not just had a maternity leave, but also as a mother to three kiddos, right? So lots of family demands there. What have you figured out? 

Laura Bull [00:19:06] Okay. We didn’t figure it out. I think is the honest truth on my mat leave. We had lots of plans about how we could make it equitable and they didn’t come to fruition. Lots of plans about how we could pay Steph differently than me during that time. Then we had a great idea and we felt we couldn’t see it through because we couldn’t figure out how to make the money work at the time. And that was, I mean, it was terrible for us. I would have loved nothing more than for Steph to be paid and for it to be like, “okay, great, phew, we found a way to manage this”. And then she didn’t get paid for that time, not for the extra time she was doing. That was terrible between us. It has been a hard topic for years between us. As many times as we’ve circled back around and given space to air our different feelings about it. It’s more in the present that we have some irons in the fire around how we’re going to resolve this sort of unequal sweat equity in our past. We have some pretty good ideas about it now  I think. But, truth be told, it’s been a couple of years of that not really being resolved, it being a painful point in our business history. 

Steph Davis [00:20:25] Yeah, and I mean, I think that though it hasn’t been resolved, it also hasn’t been ignored, which is, I think, what makes part of our partnership so unique and special in that way is that we have talked this thing to death. We are both very aware of the impact that this has had on me, the impact that it’s having on Laura, this sort of like dark, kind of cloud that hangs around sometimes when this topic comes up and we’re trying to figure out how to make things equitable. And though we haven’t arrived at a solution, I think that the way that we address it, and the way that we hold space for it, and the way that we don’t avoid it or dismiss it makes it more tolerable. It doesn’t create this barrier in our relationship where we can’t move forward on anything because we’re so stuck in this place. It’s like our hope kind of has always been that there’ll be some sort of way that this will end up being more clear and coming to a resolution. And whenever we think we have an idea, we bat it around and recently it’s gotten a lot more traction. But I think that is a really unique part of what makes our relationship work so well and is so special is that we don’t shy away from those conversations, even if we can’t resolve them. We just tolerate how uncomfortable that is and table it and move on. 

Laura Bull [00:21:40] Yeah, I mean, I think I was hearing Doctor Becky. You know her? She’s a great parenting… 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:45] I do know her, not personally, to be clear, I do not know Doctor Becky personally. I listen to her content. Yes. 

Laura Bull [00:21:51] She was describing rapture as when two people are fully in their experiences and neither of them can put it aside to hear. Whereas repair is when someone can put their experience aside and say, okay, I really want to understand what was going on for you there, tell me more. And I think Steph and I do that well, even when we can’t resolve it practically, I think we have the benefit of our therapist skills, and with relative ease you’re able to say, just tell me how this is for you. Tell me how bad, tell me how painful, tell me how bitter, tell me how used you feel. And, with relative ease can sort of hold that without interrupting with, but this or explanations or all those tempting things to do when things get difficult. So I know that has been the good enough that’s carried us through until we could find practical solutions. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:43] Yeah. Well, and listening to you, something that strikes me is you are both so brave, first of all. Having these hard conversations all the fucking time by the sounds of it, right? And that takes bravery because like, I know for myself as somebody who comes from a history of kind of people pleasing, fear of conflict. What you are doing can be really scary. It can be scary to voice things that you fear might hurt the relationship or create conflict. And what I’m hearing is these are skills that you’ve really used with each other. I don’t know if you’ve honed them with each other, if there’s been growth in this, or if these are skills that you both already had. But it sounds like they really are a foundational part of your relationship. And as you say, just talking about it, which makes you think about marriage. I remember hearing a friend say that her parents talked about how in marriage, sometimes you have a bad decade, right? And we don’t necessarily think about that when you’re young. You don’t think that a relationship can be that long and you can be like, oh, yeah, the 70s were kind of hard for us. That was kind of a bad time. But the 80s were great. But that’s what I’m hearing from you two. There is this kind of, still a bit of a cloud, we still haven’t figured this thing out, but there’s also this hope of like, but we are going to, or we are working on it and we are like keeping it on the table. It’s not being buried or avoided. 

Laura Bull [00:23:53] Yes. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:54] Which is so again, the word that comes to mind for me is mature. But what I’m also hearing is like, you two have so honed your emotional skills and your emotional intelligence around your business partnership, being leaders, how your relationship impacts your team. And now I know some of the work that you’re doing is figuring out this practical part, right? By like digging into the numbers in a different way to see how can you actually practically solve this problem. And, you know, it strikes me that in financial leadership, you need both, right?  You have the first thing in spades. And now as a team together, you’re working on the second thing, which is actually figuring out the numbers and how do we make the numbers work so there can be some compensation, reparation, recognition of the inequity that’s been there. 

Steph Davis [00:24:39] Totally. I mean, Laura, gosh, when we get that solved, what are we going to talk about?

Laura Bull [00:24:46] Maybe not work stuff. 

Steph Davis [00:24:48] Oh yeah, maybe not work stuff. That is the part of our relationship that’s probably fallen off the most. We get it in intense 20 or 30-minute to two-hour windows where we’re like, it’s only personal time right now, go! Than we go right back to it. Six weeks later, it’s like how did that things play out that we talked about for 20 minutes? 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:10] Yeah. You’ll open up more space to be friends. And then also I think too, to just expand and think about what are those next level things for the both of you. Right? Like how can the business be supporting and nurturing you in other ways? Now you’ll have different problems, but they’ll hopefully be funnier Problems. Then this kind of like past peace that is yet to be reconciled. 

Laura Bull [00:25:28] Yes. Totally.

Linzy Bonham [00:25:30] So for folks who are listening, who might be considering starting a business partnership, maybe they’re in a similar situation with you where they’re in like a group practice where it’s like this, ugh, I don’t want to be here. I want to run something better. And I have this friend who I want to run it with. Or maybe people who’ve already started into a business partnership because often these things kind of start accidentally, as we know, what would be your advice to people to have a functional partnership like you do?

Laura Bull [00:25:54] To begin with, I would say , you’re a therapist and you’re equipped with tons of helpful communication and listening skills, and they are direly needed in a business partnership. This is not a different kind of relationship. This is another human relationship. So use all the great skills that you already have, and it has served us well to make this commitment to each other, if there’s resentment that we will bring it up relatively quickly. I know I do a background process around my resentment first. I am usually triggered initially and have big reactions, and so I do a hold sorting to kind of get my adult voice online and sort out, okay, what young part of me might be reacting here. And what’s the fear? And can I soothe and meet that fear internally first and sort of get stabilized in my adult self, and then go to Steph and say, here’s the thing that I think has felt scary or icky or concerning to me. And so I would say, don’t put your therapeutic skills to the side thinking this is a different kind of relationship. It’s really important to do really excellent communication. And don’t ignore resentment. It is like the poison that will take the whole thing down if it doesn’t get addressed in a very timely way. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:17] Absolutely. Yeah, and Steph? 

Steph Davis [00:27:19] Yeah, I mean I haven’t been in therapy as long as Laura has. I was a teacher prior to. So when we started this, I was a lot younger in my career and in my kind of development of all of these skills as she was. It was a steep learning curve for me at first. We were dealing with so much intensity and working on those skills myself was such an important part of this process for me in therapy and even in my other relationships and in different ways. Because it felt it was sort of just like, oh, you got to like shit or get off the pot here. You got to figure this out and speed up the learning process in terms of communication and the things that you’re learning about relationships. So that I could develop this kind of background process so I could get more clear on what was going on for me also. And then I’ve always had a harder time communicating where I’m at to Laura than she’s had to me. It’s just not as natural for me. And so it takes a lot of work on my end. And I can’t, I think early on in our relationship, I saw her skills as so much more advanced than mine that I relied a lot more on her to do that work. And now, I’ve come to learn over the years that that’s not equitable to our relationship. And so I spent a lot of time doing a lot of the work on my own so that I can show up in this relationship in the way that we’ve committed to. So that we can have this dynamic, that we have that, really when we are both in connection it just hums. It’s great. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:51] Yeah. And I think there’s so much wisdom there. Steph in terms of how much of our own growth we have to do to really show up as leaders. Right. And to really show up as our best selves, like in these business relationships. And I know for a year or two, I saw a therapist who also had a business background, and he would charge me for executive coaching because like, so much of what was coming up was all of these kinds of things about my business. Your business brings it all to the surface, right? Like having to show up, having hard conversations, having to let people go, having people be mean to you, like all of these things. There’s just endless opportunity. And again, I think there’s so much maturity there, in just owning, okay, I gotta spend a lot of time in therapy to figure out how to how to show up the way that I want to show up. I think it’s easy to want to skip that work, and be like, no, no, this is business. It is uncomfortable

Steph Davis [00:29:42] For sure, it is uncomfortable. And yeah, oh, I just want to focus on the business. And the truth is that the way, I mean, we lead a team of 26 people. So we don’t have a choice but to be in sync with each other. And that just involves more work than, to your point, I think that people really probably are consciously aware of when they imagine going into a partnership. It is the same kind of work I do in my marriage. Right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:07] Exactly. And that’s why I say, earlier, Steph, you made a comment that business partnerships are easier and I think they’re easier when they work. Right? I saw a newspaper headline the other day from Jessica Grose, who writes for The New York Times. I read her column every week and she said, basically, good marriages are good. Bad marriages are, well, bad. Right? Like I was talking about this kind of trend, this idea that people aren’t getting married anymore. And it’s like people get married if they can find a great person and build a great relationship. But if you’re in a bad marriage, it’s worse than being on your own, right? And so what I’m hearing is you two have managed to put in the work to make it so that it’s an easier, better option through all the work that you’ve been doing. 

Laura Bull [00:30:42] Yeah, I think that’s probably very true, that it would be much harder if it was a bad relationship. 

Steph Davis [00:30:48] That’s right. I don’t know if I would have survived, you know? 

Laura Bull [00:30:52] Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:55] So Steph and Laura, if folks want to hear more from you, which I suspect they do, because I know I do, whenever I talk to you. I’m so impressed by the two of you. Can you tell folks where to find you? Tell them about your podcast. 

Steph Davis [00:31:08] Yeah, we have a podcast. You can listen anywhere you listen to your podcast. It’s called “A not so private practice”. You can find us on social at “A not so private practice”. And, the group practice, we run Shoreline Counseling. You can find us at shorelinecounselling.ca or at Shoreline Counseling on Social. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:25] Thank you so much Steph and Laura, for coming on the podcast today. 

Steph Davis [00:31:28] Awesome. Thanks for having us Linzy.

Linzy Bonham [00:31:43] I so appreciate Steph and Laura coming on the podcast today. I am consistently impressed by both of them. They’re just very thoughtful, insightful, emotionally intelligent women. And as you could hear during the conversation as they described and you can even hear it happening in real time, is like they are not afraid to have hard conversations. And, you know, as somebody who is personally a conflict adverse, I so admire and appreciate that. But also as business partners, it’s so invaluable to them to have those skills and to be able to navigate it. As we talked about today, they’re such a shining example of what happens when you bring your emotional intelligence and all those therapeutic skills, that we’re teaching other people all the time, those of us who are mental health therapists. When you bring those skills into your business partnership, this is what’s possible, right? Is you can actually have a healthy, sturdy relationship that allows both of you to thrive. You can use your complementary skill sets. But also, as they talked about today, there’s those practical pieces which now they’re working on and we’re working on together, and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners to figure out how to make the money work, to actually address the financial inequity between the two of them. And make sure that they actually resolve this issue not just by talking about it, but financially addressing it. So I’m so excited for them that they are bringing this solid foundation, these skills that they have, this love for each other, their love and respect for each other, so apparent and now they’re bringing that skill set into learning about the actual practicalities of how the money is working in their group practice. So that they can make the money flow in a way that supports both of them and recognizes the sweat equity that they’ve each put in, which is not an equal amount. So I’m so appreciative to Steph and Laura for coming on the podcast today. And as they mentioned, you can check out their podcast, A not so Private Practice podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you are a group practice owner and you want some resources on how to start making money working for you and your group practice, I have a free guide called How to Stop Feeling Overworked and Underpaid in Your Group Practice. This is a guide that’s all about empowering group practice owners to feel calm and in control of their finances. In the guide, you’re going to learn about your money story and how it’s showing up in the relationship you have with money, as an individual, as a clinician, and as a group practice owner. You’re going to learn the four keys to becoming the empowered financial leader of your group practice, and you’re going to learn about the CFO, those chief financial officer skills that you need to create a healthy, sustainable private practice that will support you, your team and your community for years to come. So the link for that guide is in the show notes. It’s How to Stop Feeling Overworked and Underpaid in your Group Practice. You can grab that guide, group practice owners and get started on the same path that Steph and Laura are walking. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Carly [00:00:02] And the imposter syndrome kicks in. So I always say it’s a really good sign if what you’re doing already exists and nobody can do what you do, how you do it, everybody does it differently, everybody has their own story. Like 90% of us are our own ideal clients, which is why self-disclosure in coaching is such a beautiful thing, because people are like, wow, she gets it.  

Linzy [00:00:30] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is Carly Hill. Carly Hill is a business mentor for therapists, helping them outgrow the office and add online coaching for added revenue stream. This is obviously a topic that I know well, having lived it myself. So it’s great to today having Carly on. She helps clinicians make more money, earn back their freedom and flexibility, all while protecting their license. So today we got into that topic of license. How do you make sure that you protect your license? That’s something I hear again and again, and that I know I always have a little bit of hypervigilance come up when I hear folks starting to talk about offering coaching. Making sure you get the right things in place to protect your license. We talked about perfectionism, how to actually just get stuff out into the world. We talk about some of the barriers to moving into coaching for therapists, and importantly, the difference between therapy and coaching. How do we distinguish between these things? How do we know when we’re doing one or doing the other? So much to talk about here. Great conversation with Carly today. We’ve definitely walked the same road in terms of moving from therapy into the coaching space and just like putting things out into the world. There’s lots of gems here for people who are considering adding coaching to the way that you support the folks who you love to serve. Here’s Carly Hill. So, Carly, welcome to the podcast. 

Carly [00:02:23] Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:02:24] Yeah, I’m excited to have you. You know, what you teach and talk about is something that I think is on many therapists’ minds, like something that I find with therapists that I support is once they get kind of their financial stuff in order, and they’re less stressed about therapy and money in their private practice. What folks often very quickly want to do is like, expand beyond like, what else is there? And that is where you come in. So can you talk a little bit about what you do and how you help therapists? 

Carly [00:02:54] Yeah, and I love that you said that because me personally, as a therapist, when I started my private practice like that was me. It’s like I got a glimpse and a taste of freedom and I’m like, well, what else is here for me? 

Linzy [00:03:05] Yeah, freedom is pretty great. Yeah. 

Carly [00:03:06] Yeah. So it’s all about right. Freedom. Flexibility. Security. So my M.O. is helping therapists add coaching. We do it ethically, legally. So we really focus on protecting your license because there’s a lot that goes into that. And it’s all about really kind of moving out of the 1 to 1 business model. It’s tapping into the group model, like how can we work smarter and leverage our time. So at this point, you know, especially if you have a private practice, you’ve been in the field for many, many years. You’re good at what you do and maybe you’re sick of repeating yourself. You want to impact more lives and, unapologetically, you want to make more money. So there’s many avenues to do that. But I have definitely found through my own experience that coaching is one of the many avenues that you can expand your revenue as a therapist. 

Linzy [00:04:00] Yes. Yeah. And something about therapists. I’ve been reflecting on this on my own relationship, from shifting from being a therapist to a coach. And, like, coming into this new year, I feel like I’m kind of fresh. I’m seeing my work with fresh eyes where I’m like, yeah, these are the conversations I used to have in private to some extent. Like, not the interventions, because I don’t use therapy interventions with my coaching clients, but like some of the ideas or the way that I talk or just my general skills, this is what I was doing behind closed doors before, one on one, and now I’m doing it in front of hundreds or thousands of people. Yeah, right. So it’s like that, like coming kind of like coming out of the therapy room and into the world is something that I think a lot of therapists are really curious about. And I’m curious, like you mentioned, that piece about protecting licensure, and I’d love to start there, because that’s always something when folks talk to me about coaching is I’m like, make sure you understand your license restrictions in your state. From me, like from the financial perspective, I’m like set up two different bank accounts if there needs to be any separation and make sure it’s really legally distinct. What is like the general guideline for therapists, because something that I see therapists have anxiety about, and understandably so, is are they going to be accidentally practicing therapy as coaching? And can they hurt their license? So like speak to that fear because it’s, I think, a legitimate fear that therapists have about switching or stepping into some coaching on the side. 

Carly [00:05:20] Yeah, it definitely is. So the best advice I can give is separate everything. Separate, separate, separate. So you want to have a separate business entity. So if you have your private practice and it’s an LLC, separate coaching LLC, separate bank accounts, we don’t want to be taking in revenue in our private practice, where we’re only licensed in X state. When you can see clients nationwide, worldwide, and you will, that’s going to be a red flag, right? Even for accounting purposes and doing taxes, it’s just going to be a messy headache if you have everything in the same place anyways. Right. So separate LLC, separate bank account, separate paperwork. So your coaching contract is very, very important. And you are still held to your ethics. So mandated reporting, informed consent, that needs to be on your coaching contract that you’re providing to clients. So those are the main things where people get caught up is like marketing. Right. And do I need to have two Instagram handles and two websites and two Facebooks and all of these things. Right. And so that’s not black and white. It’s not illegal to have both coaching and therapy on one website, but we don’t want our clients to be confused. Our clients still get to choose whether they want therapy or coaching. I mean, ultimately they can, but we need to use our clinical discernment on what are they needing? Like are they needing to be treated for medical necessity or is it this more situational, non-clinical, less severe problem? So although the stigma has gotten better, I feel like with therapy, some people could only fathom getting help under the umbrella of coaching when in reality they really need therapy. So you kind of have like a segway on your therapy website that goes to your coaching, or you have a disclaimer that, like, although, you know, coaching is similar in nature to psychotherapy, these are the differences. And hopefully you would get them on a consult call before they go one way or another anyways. And you can use your clinical discernment. 

Linzy [00:07:40] Yeah. And that’s a really good point to be aware of. I haven’t completely thought about that of like that path. Right. Like if you have, even if you have a couple different brands that you’re working under, when somebody comes to you, making sure that they’re going in the right door, right. Also for just your ethical obligation, as you say, like if someone is suffering from severe depression or like there’s very active trauma symptomology, you don’t want to be selling them this like beautiful coaching package where, you know, mostly you’re just going to be doing like fun, surface, future-oriented, like planning kind of stuff when what they really need is like deep therapy, right? And like trauma reprocessing. And this is somewhere where I do see like some blurriness in the coaching world. Do you, do you see that too? 

Carly [00:08:22] Like it gets confusing and there’s so many nuances to it because- and this is why I always say the easiest definition really is like therapy is treating medical necessity. Coaching is working with that more situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. It’s about the severity of the issue that you’re treating at hand. Like there’s all these definitions. Like if you Google it, you’re probably going to be more confused on what the the actual differences between the coaching. And some definitions I really don’t agree with. Like such as like, you know, coaching is working on the future and therapy is working on the past. It’s like as a therapist and a coach, I know that you work on the past, present, and the future, whether you’re in a therapeutic relationship or you’re in a coaching relationship. And somebody could be meeting criteria, textbook, DSM and still be a fit for your coaching program. For example, I had a therapist term coach who had a coaching program to help women who have come out of DV relationships get back into the dating world and have confidence. So a lot of them actually were meeting criteria for PTSD. They had their own therapist and they had worked on or currently working on that, but her coaching program was very specific to confidence in the dating world. It was that situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. Does that make sense? 

Linzy [00:09:47] That makes so much sense. I mean, it’s a really good discernment. Like, this is a conversation that I actually had a lot with one of my coaches who worked for me in my course, Money Skills for Therapists, a couple of years ago. And, you know, she’s got all this rich clinical toolbox. She’s a psychologist, but also doing some coaching for me in the course. And like we had a lot of conversations kind of like philosophical and practical of like what is coaching and what is therapy and how do you know when you’re doing each. And like my answer for her, and I’m curious about your answer for yourself. I was a trauma therapist, so that was my specialty. I don’t practice therapy anymore. I now just fully do this, you know, financial coaching and business coaching. But for me, there’s a very specific way that my brain is working when I’m doing therapy. I’m really like, I’m going into the pain. That’s really the work I was mostly doing with folks, right? As I was doing trauma reprocessing. So it’s like we, you know, hear that there’s a negative experience and we’re going right into that experience and we’re doing all of the resourcing to stay with that. And like everything is about getting to the root and resolving the root. And that’s very specific for me in my body. I know what that feels like when I’m in that space with somebody and when I’m doing that, and there’s this huge toolbox that I used to do that work, right, in this huge filing cabinet of trainings that my brain is like, you know, going through to, like, pull out all the information you got. It’s very like complex work. It feels very different than the coaching work that I do. Right? Coaching work I find for me is very light in my body. It’s fun. It’s very- I’m very quick to use, like personal disclosure, which I never, ever, ever did as a therapist. As a therapist, I was so boundary, so aware of like my own story, having, you know, no place in the clinical room the vast majority of the time. In coaching, I’m aware that folks want to know what I do and what I’ve done because they want to get the results that I’ve gotten, right. So and when I see pain now in one of my students, which of course everybody has trauma, it’s like, that’s a great thing for you to take to your therapist. Like, I don’t even like, you know, like we look at it from like 15ft away and we’re like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you feel this way because of this experience you had, you know, are you working with a therapist? That’s great. Right. Yeah. Like it just like, I’m having a very different relationship to like, where I’m focusing energy and attention. I’m curious like, yeah, your reflections on that as a, you know, discerning between the two and what your own relationship is, playing these two different roles: coaching and therapy. 

Carly [00:12:14] There’s so much that I can say. So I feel like we get weird sometimes about like, what am I doing? Like am I, quote-unquote, doing therapy, or am I doing coaching, right? And again, it goes back to, you know, are you treating medical necessity or not. But we think that like, we can’t use all of our clinical modalities and training and schooling and background when we all of a sudden put on our bonus identity of being a coach. And the reality is you can use CBT, DBT, EMDR, literally we have trainings every letter of the alphabet. Right. So like and there is like you could Google like CBT coaching certification. When we hear these things we think therapy especially EMDR as a trauma therapist. Right. But you’re probably thinking that in your head like now how the hell would you use EMDR. 

Linzy [00:13:10] I am I am. 

Carly [00:13:11] I had a client who did peak performance coaching with athletes to help them out, beat their competition, and she was doing EMDR with them. It was that very situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. So again, it’s just like what is the the issue at hand that you’re treating? You can absolutely use all of your clinical modalities in the coaching setting. And also I think we get tied up with the word coach sometimes. And even just because we work so hard for our license, why do we want to call ourselves a coach? It could feel like a downgrade. It’s like, I don’t want to be like all those other coaches on the internet. This is the whole thing, right? 

Linzy [00:13:56] Oh yeah. 

Carly [00:13:57] But as a coach, it’s kind of like you’re a teacher, like you’re doing psychoeducation that you already do in therapy. Anyways, so I had a massive realization when I had my private practice that I was actually coaching the whole entire time. I wasn’t even doing therapy. I just thought I was because I was therapist by trade. But when I really started studying, like, what is the difference between therapy and coaching? I recognized that I was doing coaching. I was helping women who were not meeting medical necessity. It was like those that I would give adjustment disorder or anxiety unspecified, and I was doing a lot of psychoeducation with them. I was teaching them. So I find that often times therapists are doing that too, but they’re limiting themselves. It’s really hard to go into treating medical necessity, even if you tried. When you’re creating a curriculum like a recorded course anyways, to help them get from A to B, problem to solution, and you’re taking them through like the 6 to 8 milestones to get from problem to solution. It’s like you’re a teacher. 

Linzy [00:15:05] Yeah, that language really resonates with me a lot. Yeah, a lot of what you’re saying it’s pinging. I have many thoughts about the coaching world, kind of having stepped into it in a way, kind of accidentally, you know, like just wanting to do certain work. You’re like, oh, I guess this is what I am. Yeah. But that educator distinction is something that I’ve noticed myself is like I identify largely as a teacher and an educator, like a financial educator. I’m doing like, popular education around finances, right? I’m taking something that can be very difficult to understand and intimidating and making it accessible. Right. But also clicking it into this specific space of this niche that I serve, which is therapists. So folks who are very emotionally intelligent and need that mixed in with their information, right. Like we need that relational and emotional aspect. But that’s such a helpful piece to pull out because I know for me that’s when I like, really know I’m coaching like I’m teaching, right? Like I don’t have the space in my programs or even my one on ones to, like, really do any kind of medical treatment. Right? Like the container is not set up to support that, like actual medical treatment that I used to do for folks took months and months and months or years and years and years of focused work together, of coming back to the same thing and getting stuck with that thing and looking at it from a different angle and like there was some amount of psychoeducation that I was doing, but really I was doing trauma processing. I was like, looks very different now. Education is such a big part of what I do, and I love you pointing that out, because I think that that’s often missed in terms of coaching, that that is a lot of we do is we are teaching, right, like we’re teaching the framework that we’ve developed, but we’re also just teaching general information in a way that’s going to get somebody a certain result. 

Carly [00:16:39] Yeah. Or even like a faster result. Like I think there’s such a beauty in coaching, not only for the therapist but for the client. It’s truly a win when like, you know, you get to leverage your time and your skills and your knowledge and technology as a therapist, which is a beautiful thing, but also not everybody needs therapy. And if they’re not needing to be treated for medical necessity, they could come into your very specific three month educational curriculum program and get faster, easier results with this proven step by step system, even on their own time, because everything’s recorded and they can listen to it when they’re doing other things. It’s such a win for them. Like it can save them years of their life, thousands of dollars. It’s just a win win. 

Linzy [00:17:32] Yeah, absolutely. Certainly. That’s been my experience with it. And what I found too, is the impact that I can have by packaging up the process that I’ve developed. Right. And by like building in these specific supports means that I’ve had like 500 folks go through my program. Yeah. And some of them I know because they show up to a lot of calls and I know exactly who they are. Some of them showed up to literally no calls and just did the work on their own. But there’s no way that I could have helped 500 clients individually in that same timeframe, right? Like it’s just such a bigger impact that you’re able to have. What do you see are some of the biggest barriers that therapists have to the idea of stepping into coaching or owning the fact that they might want to step into coaching? 

Carly [00:18:13] Well, definitely the protecting licensing that we already covered, because therapists just think it’s like too daunting. I always joke like they’re afraid, like the ethical gods are going to come after them. Like it’s not an excuse to not add coaching. There’s steps that you need to take. It’s not that difficult to keep everything separate. If you have a blueprint in front of you, somebody is giving you the paperwork that you need. Like your gut. Nicheing is the second biggest barrier. I think we’re used to solving every problem under the sun and morphing into whoever’s in front of us. That when you go to create a curriculum for a very specific population with a very specific problem, you’re like, whoa, what do I even choose? And something that’s marketable and viable as well, not just like a nice to have or an addition to somebody’s life, or you’re going to fall on deaf ears, right? Like you want to sell something that’s going to sell like hotcakes, right? If this is really going to be an additional sustainable revenue stream. 

Linzy [00:19:15] Yes. And that is a helpful thing for folks to think about is, like with business, you know, you need to sell something that people want or need, right? So like really taking the time to identify, am I selling something that people are asking for? Or if they’re not asking for it, how do I help to educate them so they do ask for it? Because that’s something about my course and my audience is they don’t know what their problem is, but they know what their pain is. So a lot of the marketing that we have to do is around educating folks. You feel this way because of this and like, this is the solution, right? But we’re actually having to do a lot of education with folks before they understand, like, oh, the problem is that I don’t know a financial system and that I have a bad relationship with money and that can be fixed, and Linzy can help me fix it, like we’re walking them all the way along the marketing process. Whereas for other types of niches, people might know that they have the problem and they’re going to come looking for the solution, right? But you do need to be selling something that people want and need, asking people to figure out what that is, because that is something that I do sometimes see a mistake that therapists make. And I’m curious what mistakes you see them make as they try to step into coaching. As I see folks spend so much time building something, but they haven’t really validated it or built an audience, and then there’s nobody to sell it to. And they’ve done all this work, but there’s no appetite for it. 

Carly [00:20:28] Yeah. So good. Well-spoken. The level of buyer’s awareness, you know, what you’re speaking to, is incredibly important, which is why market research is important. When most people go to do market research and they’re googling, you know, other coaches that exist or they’re assessing their needs from potential clients and prospects, if they get scared that, well, if this already exists and all of these coaches are already doing this, why me? Who am I to do this? Why wouldn’t they just go read X, Y, and Z book or go to Sally GuruPants, you know, mentor who is already killing it, and then they don’t do it. And the imposter syndrome kicks in. So I always say it’s a really good sign if what you’re doing already exists and nobody can do what you do, how you do it, everybody does it differently. Everybody has their own story. Like 90% of us are our own ideal clients, which is why self-disclosure in coaching is such a beautiful thing, because people are like, wow, she gets it. Yes, right. 

Linzy [00:21:32] And I really love you saying that because I’ve sometimes heard from my own students who again, it’s like they go through the course and then at the end they’re like, I actually have this dream to like, do something else, right? You can start to own I want more. But what I have folks say to me sometimes is they’re like, but I don’t have something like super unique to do, like, like you do. And I’m like, no, no, no, don’t do what I did. Like the fact that for my business, I built something that didn’t exist before, that I don’t have a direct competitor, is really rare and like, not actually what you want. What you actually want is exactly what you’re talking about. Where like there is already an audience for it. There’s already other people doing it because there’s demand for it. Right? Like my business is harder because I don’t have competition, because, as I said, I have to educate everybody about what their problem is before they can even think about think about working with me at some point. Right. And so, yeah, and seeing other people doing what you do is a good sign. 

Carly [00:22:27] Yeah. And it works. So just to get to your point and then your business being sustainable, right. Educating them on the different level of buyer’s awareness. So it may be a longer process from when they come into your world and become a paying client. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work right. But you are willing to take the chance and you are willing to try. If I could take a guess, probably because of your own story, right? And maybe lacking what you basically created and had to learn the hard way yourself, which is typically like why 90% of us are our own ideal clients, right? Exactly. 

Linzy [00:23:02] Yeah. 

Carly [00:23:03] But you mentioned you see a lot of people, like, create this beautiful thing and then they go to market and sell it and it falls on deaf ears. So I always recommend to sell before you create. Create it as you go. And this is really daunting for the Type-A people. But this is what you want to do, right? So you need to be in integrity, selling something that you haven’t yet created. So you need to know, like what are the deliverables and what you’re offering? What are your bonuses? What are your guarantees? How long is it? What is the investment? All of that stuff. But if you’re creating a recorded course, for example, then you know you have week one, maybe week two done while they come in. They’re watching week one while you’re recording week two or recording week three. So you have your outline, again, you’re in integrity, but you’re creating it as you go. And that’s really going to allow you to make it so much better anyways. Like, what if they ask you questions that week one that you forgot to add in week two, then you just go add them in. 

Linzy [00:24:03] That’s exactly how I built all my courses. Yeah. And as you say, it is a challenge for the Type-A amongst us. And like, I consider myself a recovering perfectionist, but this is the advice that I give folks when they ask me about like building something is like, sell it first. Again, exactly as you said. You know the path, like you know the general path you’re going to walk them down, you know the general skills or, you know, kind of the order of things that need to happen, but by actually building it as you go, you’re catering it to exactly who’s in your program. And it’s going to be better than you sitting alone in your office imagining somebody going through the process. So yeah, this is how I built my core course Money Skills for Therapists. I built it. It was a six week course and I built it one week at a time. It’s like I would run the call. My partner was helping me build it. We would run- I would run the call, we’d get off the call, I’d be like, okay, now I need to make seven videos. And he’d be like, okay. And we would just like, go for it and make it and have them posted by the next day. And 80% of that content is still the core of that course, because it was good and it remained good. And now just the other day, I went and started adding some more content and like tweaking things and improving and changing. But like that foundation is still the same. And I built Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which is my second level course. I just came out of six months of building that the exact same way. Yeah, right. You have no time to get in your own way when people are expecting lessons to drop, you know, in the next week. 

Carly [00:25:27] It’s the best way. And it’s such leveraged work. Right? And it’s such a breath of fresh air. And just like a huge accomplishment when you can look at all your recordings and you’re like, damn, I did that. I created this thing, this whole thing. Right? Yeah, I love that. 

Linzy [00:25:43] Yeah, totally. And then you can sell that thing over and over again. 

Carly [00:25:46] Yes you can. Yes, yes, it’s leveraged work. Yeah it is. So it’s kind of a short term pain for the long term gain. Right. Because it does – not gonna lie – let’s talk a little bit at the beginning when you’re like, oh no, sorry, I can’t, I’ll be in my recording studio and by recording studio you mean like sitting at your desk with your microphone. Okay. But it is like blinders until it’s complete. 

Linzy [00:26:09] Yeah. And I also like for myself, and I’m curious your expense with this. For me, I do also experience it as kind of the creative process, right, where it’s like it’s a lot of work, but I’m also in the flow, like I’m living it and I’m breathing it. And like sometimes I’ll. I started using deep work sessions when I was building Money Skills for Group Practice Owners where it’s like Fridays, that’s all I’m doing. I’m not answering emails, I’m not available. I don’t coach on Fridays. I’m just doing this. And sometimes I would spend two hours building a lesson and then I’m like, no it’s too specific and I’ll scrap it. But it’s like, I’m like in that like, you know, sometimes I make the joke like I’m an artist. I’m going to go into artist mode, which is when I’m doing things not well in advance and not super strategically, but I’m just going to go in the flow. But you create great stuff from that space, like it’s flow. You’re letting yourself get into a flow state because you have to, but also you’re like making it a priority so that you have the opportunity to. I’m curious about like your own experience with building things like this. 

Carly [00:27:05] I 100% agree. And if you can get out of your head into service as soon as possible, it’s going to benefit you tremendously. Because when you are launching something like you’re so focused and you’re wearing all of the hats on doing your market research and dialing in your messaging and doing social media posts and getting on sales calls and enrolling your first few clients into your program. Like you’re just doing all of these things and you do start to question or imposter syndrome comes in and it’s like, who’s going to buy this? Is anybody going to buy this? Like, if you can just put it out there and get your first couple clients and you can get into that state that you were just talking about the flow state where you’re recording, and then you look back on what you just created or you were sent back and you’re like, whoa, that was good. What I just said, like, mic drop for a second. So it really will help you have more momentum to keep selling and advertising, and then you have more confidence and conviction and what you’re even selling because you’re in flow and you’re looking at it and you’re like, that is good. And it just- the energy pulls through to your audience. 

Linzy [00:28:18] Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I’ve been talking in a few places this week about perfectionism, right. And how much that slows us down. I just did a presentation today in the group practice exchange community about financial perfectionism. I was just talking about on a call today. And like the phrase that always comes to mind for me around it is like, perfect is the enemy of done. Right? Like when we don’t make ourselves do it, when we don’t sometimes create that container. So you’re like, I just got to do it. And like, I’m going to say stuff. And then I’m like, damn, that was good. Which I had like sparring with myself fairly regularly. If I just make myself talk, I end up saying something, then I’m like, oh yeah, that’s what I meant. But I didn’t know it until I was saying it out loud. That’s my creative process. But if I don’t make myself do it, and if I think about it and if I want to make it perfect, sometimes it just doesn’t even happen. That thing just never materializes unless I give myself a bit of pressure and a deadline to make it happen. And if it’s not perfect, it doesn’t matter because you’re teaching and you’re going to like, get that feedback from your students and you’re going to tweak it, or you’re going to, like, have a conversation where you explain it, then you’re going to go back and add that to your video. But like you have created 95% of the finished product by doing that. 

Carly [00:29:22] And it’s always better than we think it is, even when we think it’s bad. Right? We’re just really hard on ourselves because we are those Type-A people. 

Linzy [00:29:29] So true. 

Carly [00:29:30] I use the 80/20 rule. This can be applied to multiple different things in business, right? But I say be 80% sure an move on. Yes. It’s 80% good enough and then you move on because you could just come back and you can redo it. But it’s like you got to keep the momentum flowing. 

Linzy [00:29:46] Yes. Yeah. And the 80/20 rule. Can you explain that for folks who are not familiar with it. 

Carly [00:29:50] I always say with marketing like 80% value, 20% hard promoting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that’s another way. 

Linzy [00:29:59] Yeah. And there’s that like diminishing returns piece. Right where it’s like the work that you do, it’s like you have like got it to 80%. That’s a huge difference. That last like ten hours of work is only going to make it that little tiny bit better, which is not worth it. Right? It’s much better to move on with your energy and build something else, something new. The term that we’ve been using this week in our own team is Just Ship It, which I think is from Seth Godin is my understanding where like a lot like that, just ship it, you just ship it. And I even found a little mailbox emoji that I’m starting to use with my team. Just ship it. It’s great. Good enough. Just ship it. Yeah, right. And like, just get it out into the world. Because chances are that like obsessing that we do and that like extra stuckness is in actually going to make it that much better. Sometimes it even makes it worse because we end up taking out something that we think is bad, but is actually quirky, and is why your students love you in the first place. 

Carly [00:30:48] 100% agree. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:50] So, Carly, for folks who want to get further into your world, can you tell them more about where to find you, where to follow you, what you offer? 

Carly [00:30:59] Yes, absolutely. So I would say the best place is my Facebook group, The Therapist to Coach Accelerator. There is like 50 plus free trainings in there. Just this past week I brought in an attorney to speak about protecting your license. So any of the folks who are listening who that is maybe a big barrier for them. They can learn about that in there. You can also follow me on Instagram, Carly Hill coaching or my website Carly Hill coaching.com. 

Linzy [00:31:23] Wonderful. Thank you. This is great food for thought. Wonderful to also talk to another therapist turned coach. And I know there’s lots of valuable stuff here for people who are considering making this transition. Thanks, Carly. 

Carly [00:31:34] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:31:49] I appreciated Carly’s distinction today between that, you know, medical necessity, treating folks out of medical necessity or doing this more- I don’t even know how she would describe it, but like she said, future-oriented, isn’t it? But, you know, not treating folks out of medical necessity and trying to get really clear on, you know, what is therapy, what is coaching, and making sure that folks come through, you know, the right door when they find you. There’s lots to consider in this space. And I noticed myself, I still have like a little bit of vigilance about it, but I’m so glad that folks like Carly are out there helping therapists think through what they’re doing, protecting your license, setting up things in a way that protects you, make sure that you’re acting ethically, and just owning what you have to offer the world. Because that’s the other thing that I see is that, you know, therapists, we tend to undervalue our skills and undervalue just how much we know and how much we’ve learned. And there’s so much opportunity to help folks far beyond the therapy room. If you can really step into your skills and own what you do, put it out in the world. And as Carly and I talked about, just ship it. Let yourself do it imperfectly. You can always clean it up later. So I appreciated Carly coming on the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you are interested in working with me and in experiencing my course that I’ve created, my offer that’s been out in the world, as I said on the episode today, that more than 500 students – I was just looking at our Teachable today. It says 533. We’ll take off like a few team members for that. So let’s say like 527 people have gone through Money Skills for Therapists so far. And I continue to have like amazing conversations with Money Skills for Therapists students every week, watching them like kick butt. So if you are curious about Money Skills for Therapists, the way to learn about it is through my masterclass, The 4-Step Framework to Getting Your Business Finances Totally in Order. I will put the link to that masterclass, in the show notes. You can check out that masterclass, learn about my framework, learn about the biggest mistakes that therapists make while trying to get their business finances in order and learn about Money Skills for Therapists and whether it would be the right container, the right support to help you feel calm and confident about your business finances. So link for that is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Erin [00:00:04] I agree with how it can feel like oxygen, because I can imagine myself, once I am in the space where- and maybe doing this budget rework and moving my money differently will help me feel like I have that breathing room, because right now it does not feel that way. 

Linzy [00:00:30] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today on the podcast – I’m really excited – we’re doing something for the first time, which is we have a coaching episode to share with you, which is with one of our listeners. So previously on the coaching episodes on the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, I have brought on current students or past students of Money Skills for Therapists. So they’re always folks that I’ve known to some extent, already from being in the course or sometimes that I’ve known really, really well. But this is the first time that we are bringing on a guest who’s a listener of the podcast. Our guest today is Erin Davis. She’s in private practice specializing in anxiety and OCD in a small town in North Carolina. She has got a podcast about OCD called Bossing Up Overcoming OCD, which she shares she got a sponsorship for in only three sessions. And in our conversation today, we talked about figuring out how to both make your money serve you and this question of whether or not she should raise her fee. So Erin shares that she’s in a small town in North Carolina, where her fee is already kind of at the high end of what folks tend to charge. So there’s this concern about raising her fee, but she has all these stressors of a credit card debt to pay down, building a home, she’s got three young boys who are in sports. And basically, how does she make the money work? What does she need to do? So today in our conversation, we dig into that question. We end up really looking at her numbers in a tangible way and coming up with a really clear path forward for how her money can serve her. Here’s my conversation with Erin Davis. So Erin, welcome to the podcast. 

Erin [00:02:35] Thank you, Linzy, for having me. I’m so excited to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:38] Yeah, I’m really excited to have you here. We were just talking off mic about how previously for coaching episodes on the podcast, I’ve always had students or grads. So like folks I’ve already known to some extent. This is our first time recording a coaching episode for the podcast with a listener, so we have not met before now, which is exciting. 

Erin [00:02:58] Right? And I have been following you for quite some time, and I listened to your private practice summit back in the fall. Oh yeah, that was fantastic. And I got linked up with other coaches and mentors there. And Aisha Shabazz is my business coach. 

Linzy [00:03:16] Oh, nice. Yeah. She’s been on the podcast before. 

Erin [00:03:17] Yes and I went back and actually relistened to that episode. I love both of you guys. 

Linzy [00:03:23] Wonderful. Well, I’m very excited to have you here. To dig in to your question for today. So, Erin, what do you want to focus our time on today together? 

Erin [00:03:32] Yes. Well, again, thank you for letting me come on the show because it’s been quite a ride for me in my journey. And where I am now, I think it is going to be very helpful to kind of get your expertise in the financial coaching. So my story started several years ago. I was in private practice for the first time. Now, I’ve been- I’ve had my graduate degree since 2011, but about 2 or 3 years ago was when I stepped out and did private practice on my own, and that was a very eye opening experience, and I burned myself out. Worked too much. I was not a good boss to myself, but the money was there, right? And then my husband and I decided, let’s get a change of pace in our life and let’s move back home to family in North Carolina. And that’s been a great move. Now, with that experience I had with private practice, I thought, I can’t work myself to this extent anymore and decided to take a salary job with a nonprofit, and it was wonderful. It was one of the best experiences I’ve had with an agency. Now, with that being said too, not everything lasts forever. And the contract went away. And there I was with a job loss in my mid-30s. I’m the sole breadwinner for my family. 

Linzy [00:05:00] Yes. Gotcha. Yep. 

Erin [00:05:01] Yes. And I’ve got three boys are really fell into, kind of a pit and a little bit of a crisis and thinking, what do I do next? Because I enjoy counseling. I love the field. And. But a lot of time, investment and energy into this work. And I was scared to go back into private practice because of the way it went before. So I decided that I would go into private practice, but I would be more mindful and intentional with my choices. Yes. Great, yes. So I feel like I have done a great job in honoring my values and my family needs this time around. But the complication that I have run into is our small town in North Carolina. It’s not one to really be known for paying premium therapy rates. So that creates a challenge. And just to put it in perspective, our county – countywide, all of the children are on free meals. 

Linzy [00:06:09] Okay. Yeah. So you’re not in a high income area by any means? 

Erin [00:06:13] Exactly. Okay. Especially compared to where we were living before. My current rate. It does meet my needs. If I don’t have any other additional expenses or what I’m facing right now, which is the credit card debt from the job loss, because I mean that really threw our plans, because being in a salary position, you expect that it’s going to be a safe job. Yes. Now I mean we have our personal emergency savings and that’s fine. But I think one of the other lessons I’ve learned is to have a business savings. 

Linzy [00:06:49] Yes, absolutely. I completely agree with you. Yeah. Having that business buffer is great. And so that sounds like a good learning, you know, that’s come out of this that you can incorporate into your practice moving forward. It sounds like this would be one of the goals is having that buffer in your practice this time around. 

Erin [00:07:04] Yes. And it seems like – and maybe that was something that I heard from your, one of your webinars was. Well, and I love your idea of profit first. And so I’m struggling with this balance of paying myself. Plus covering our family expenses plus aggressively paying down debt because it’s very uncomfortable to carry debt. 

Linzy [00:07:30] Yes. Okay. Yeah. So. Yeah. Because what I’m hearing is there’s multiple jobs that’s needing to come out of this money, which is not as much money as you used to make because you used to live somewhere where it was a higher income area. 

Erin [00:07:41] Yes. 

Linzy [00:07:42] Now your fee is 135. 

Erin [00:07:44] Correct. 

Linzy [00:07:45] So your fee is 135. And you have these different priorities of like paying down the debt, supporting your family, living. Yeah. What are other goals that, you know, you’re trying to meet with this money? 

Erin [00:07:55] We are building a home. We do have money set aside for that. But still, it would be nice to be able to provide more improvements because we’ve got goals of like, you know, we can do this step for now and then maybe in a few years we’ll add this other addition or this. 

Linzy [00:08:13] Right. 

Erin [00:08:14] I would really like to be able to contribute. Oh, like a pool, for example. 

Linzy [00:08:18] Yes. 

Erin [00:08:19] Okay. You know. Yeah. And I know that’s first world problems, but I’ve got three boys and they would love a pool. 

Linzy [00:08:25] Absolutely. 

Erin [00:08:26] Adults by the time I can. 

Linzy [00:08:28] Yeah I know. Yeah. It’s like that. And this is one of the things about having kids. And I see this too, is it’s like you’re at a stage of your career where you’re often still building and you’re paying down debt, but it’s like, this is your kid’s childhood now, right? They’re not gonna appreciate the pool so much when they’re 25. And you’re like, well, but we paid down all the debt and now we have a pool. Come over. And they’re gonna be like, mom, I’m an adult. I’ve got a life. A pool for a seven year old is Paradise. 

Erin [00:08:49] Exactly. Yeah. Okay. 

Linzy [00:08:50] Okay, good. Okay. So with these different jobs that your money has to do, I’m hearing there’s the debt paydown. And there’s emotional weight around that debt. 

Erin [00:08:58] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:08:59] There’s just your regular living supporting your family. Are you still the sole breadwinner of your family? 

Erin [00:09:04] Yes. Okay. My husband is primarily building the house like his full time project. 

Linzy [00:09:10] Right. So his job for your family is to build this house, which I’m sure is saving you a lot of money because contractors are very expensive. Yeah. So. Yeah, but that means that kind of his contribution to the family right now is in his labor and skills. He’s not bringing money in that you can turn into something else. 

Erin [00:09:24] Sort of. I will preface that and say that he is a veteran. And so we do. 

Linzy [00:09:30] Okay. 

Erin [00:09:30] There’s military benefit. 

Linzy [00:09:32] Great. Okay. So there is some income coming in for him. 

Erin [00:09:34] Yes. 

Linzy [00:09:35] Right. Okay. And then this ongoing project of building a home, you would like it to be more than, right now, the budget would allow. Like it’d be nice to add those things now. 

Erin [00:09:44] Right, right. Yes. All of my boys are in competitive sports. And so every time you turn around, they need a new bat or a uniform. 

Linzy [00:09:52] 100%, yes. My joke with my son. I have one son. And my joke, we’re Canadian, is that I just don’t want him to know that hockey exists. Like, I just want it to, like, never be on his radar. Because if he discovers hockey and if he’s good at hockey, that’s all my life and my weekends and my money for the next, like, 15 years. Yeah. So yes, it can be a big outlay. And similarly to what we’re talking about before though, like this is their one and only childhood, it sounds like this is something that’s important to you, right. Is having them have these experiences. So this is an important expense for your family right. Okay. So let’s zoom out then on numbers. And you had mentioned profit first. And I love that you mentioned that because I think that’s actually going to be a. A really good tool for us to use, to give you perspective, because what I’m hearing is there’s these competing priorities. All these things are important in their own way, right? There’s an emotional weight around the debt, which is going to have its own kind of urgency to wanting to get rid of that. But there’s only so much money coming in. Right. And you are the income earner for your family with your husband’s veteran benefits as well. 

Erin [00:10:50] Right, exactly. And I am trying to give myself grace and compassion and patience. We are as new business owners- because essentially I’m revamping this private practice. We all experience some level of expense upfront. So it’s technically like this is another do over because first time in my private practice, it was a slow transition of trading off. Let me do this warm handoff of my private practice slowly and then I’ll leave my group practice. But this time around it wasn’t. I mean, night and day like, oh no, I can’t go to work tomorrow. What am I going to do next?  

Linzy [00:11:31] There’s kind of the the parachute version of entering private practice where you’re leaving something and you have a parachute to ease you down. And then there’s the cliff diving version, which is what you’ve had to do. You got pushed off the cliff. I personally start businesses by jumping off cliffs. That’s how I make myself do things. But you got pushed off a cliff and now here you are. You have to make it work. Okay? Yes. So with your numbers, Erin, do you have some numbers that we could talk about to really ground in what’s happening right now financially? 

Erin [00:11:57] Yes. Beautiful. All right. My private practice fee calculator. And what’s funny is sometimes I’ll really go big with the numbers of like. Yes, this is what I would love to invest in our home improvement. And then I’m like, oh no, that’s going to raise my fee by $40. Like I can’t do that. 

Linzy [00:12:18] Yes. So like you look at what the implications of that would be. And it’s like no, no, no. 

Erin [00:12:21] Yes. And the scary part too, Linzy, is that what if I raise my fee and nobody comes? 

Linzy [00:12:29] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. There’s two ways to think about this. And we’re going to ground in your numbers, because I want to really start to get clear on what your money can be doing for you right now and what it is doing for you right now. Right. And then we can think about what needs to change. There is that question and there’s a couple different philosophies about, you know, fees and premium fees. The one philosophy is like if you build it, they will come, right? Like if you really own your niche and if you’re really clear about the value of what you do, and if you speak directly to your ideal client, you will find those folks even in your county, right? Because you don’t need 4000 clients, you need 15 or 20, right? 

Erin [00:13:03] Yes. 

Linzy [00:13:04] So there is that. There’s that approach, right, of just like really leaning in and owning your niche. And that’s what coaches like Tiffany McLain will teach you to do. Right? Which is just like own it, right. Be bold. You know, lots people are going to say no, but you’re going to figure out who says yes, and you’re going to be able to keep refining your messaging to find those folks who say yes, right, by owning your fee. That’s one philosophy. The other philosophy is kind of like reading the room of like, okay, I don’t live in San Francisco. You know, I live in a small town, North Carolina. You know, there isn’t tech money here. So let’s think about what is reasonable to keep a full caseload. Right. And generally speaking, I mean, my approach to life and money in general, Erin, is like, I think the truth is in the middle there somewhere, right? Of like, you probably can’t charge $500 an hour living where you are. There’s probably only 2 or 3 doctors who could, like, sustain your caseload or be part of your caseload that way. But you might be able to charge more than 135. But part of it is getting us grounded in like, what do you actually need? Right? And what’s even possible with the numbers right now? Because when we have this emotional weight around debt as well, that can make that feel really urgent and important. And sometimes we can over prioritize that because we want it to go away because of like shame and like negative stories or negative memories associated with it. We want to like close that chapter, but that’s not always strategic. So I want to think about that too, as we look at your numbers. Okay. Is like, how does that fit into this equation and how important is it compared to the pool or your kids sports or going out for dinner on Fridays? 

Erin [00:14:31] All of those points are so true, because every time I look at my credit card statement, I think, oh, I can’t wait to get rid of this. And then I go through the negative self-talk of I must not be doing enough. And then, it’s yes, a very frequent debate of what can I do now? The beautiful thing is, I started my own podcast back in December and that topic is on OCD. Aisha Shabazz has been really good with the business coaching and help helping my niche down to be an OCD specialist, and I love working with OCD and with that podcast it was amazing. After only three published episodes I got a sponsorship. 

Linzy [00:15:20] Amazing. So there’s that other stream of income then as well. 

Erin [00:15:23] Yes. With that yeah. Took a huge weight off my shoulders. 

Linzy [00:15:27] Yes. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. And I think that’s one of those things I love hearing that that is already come for you, Erin, because that’s also something that a lot of therapists, I think fantasize about or talk about, like, what else can I do besides therapy? How else do I bring in money, can I coach? And so that’s really nice that you have that extra stream of income coming in. 

Erin [00:15:45] Yes. It’s like a side hustle that aligns with the work I’m already doing. 

Linzy [00:15:49] Yes, yes. Which is beautiful. Creating that kind of ecosystem is really strategic, right. Because that side hustle is really about what you’re doing. But it’s fun and it’s different. It’s not just therapy, but then it’s also helping folks find you and get into your therapy practice. If they live in North Carolina or wherever you’re licensed. 

Erin [00:16:05] Right? 

Linzy [00:16:05] Yeah. So what I want to do together now is look at your numbers from a zoomed out perspective. Right. Because when we have all these competing priorities and all these obligations around our money, it can be really easy to get kind of caught in the weeds and overwhelmed by what we put where. What we’re going to do together now is I’m going to walk us through a profit first calculator. So this is something I often do with folks inside Money Skills for Therapists during their one on one. Actually, often this is a conversation I have with folks, is looking at your numbers and zooming out together to see, okay, with the numbers as they are right now, what is possible? Like where are the obligations and where are the possibilities? So I’m going to share my screen with you, and we’re going to look at your numbers through this lens. And this tool I will share with you after. So you will have it. 

Erin [00:16:48] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:16:49] You’re welcome. So this is your calculator and we’re going to play with it. And what this is doing here, Erin, is it’s letting us zoom out on your numbers. So I’m going to zoom in first so you can see them better. Zoom in so we can zoom out. There we go. So this is a calculator that helps you see, based on how you set your profit first percentages, based on the big picture priorities that you set for your money, what that money would look like on a monthly basis. So we’re zooming out of the weekly. We’re like getting out of like the good versus the bad weeks, those ups and downs that can be really distracting and confusing and thinking about what is normal, right. What is normal with, you had a great week, but then the next week your kids were sick and you’re off for two days, right? Like just evening those things out. So looking at your year, whether you use Simple Practice or whatever, do you have some numbers that we can look at to figure out what’s average for you? What is a normal month? I’m looking at your your income numbers for your practice. 

Erin [00:17:47] Sure. Right now I would say on average – and things are still building and growing. What I would say about the past three months, my simple practice income has shown $3,000 a month. 

Linzy [00:18:03] Okay, so $3,000 comes in the door in the top. 

Erin [00:18:07] Yes, on average. Now this month might be 4000.  

Linzy [00:18:11] Because you’re still growing. Yes, yes. And to give me a sense of like what is your caseload right now? How many folks a week are you seeing right now? 

Erin [00:18:19] I’m seeing ten a week. And my goal is 15. So I’m very proud of myself. I’m way ahead of my yeah, I thought I wouldn’t be able until a year out. And I’m since I started working with Aisha, really niche down I would say I’m still less than six months. So it’s beautiful. Great. 

Linzy [00:18:39] Yeah. You are on the right road. You see it’s working there. Is that part of the beginning where patience is part of the equation, right, of like it takes a while for people to find you. I’m sure that right now there are 5 or 6 people who have found you and they’re contemplating reaching out, or they’re talking to their partner about whether they have the money for it. But it takes some time, right, for folks to actually, like, get in the door, stay. Yes. So right now then we’re looking at 3000 and that’s with your ten a week. So if you are at 15 a week I would estimate then it’d be about 4500 right. It’d be 50% higher would be what your revenue would become. 

Erin [00:19:14] That sounds about right. 

Linzy [00:19:15] And I’m just saying that number because off the top, I know that 3000 is not going to be able to go very far for you. So. Right. We’re going to look at 3000 quickly. But I think given that you’re in this growth stage, we know that you need to grow. That’s a given. Right. Like we know that for your family’s needs, ten clients a week is not going to be enough. So we know that 15 is where you need to go or want to go and and where you need to go, right. So I want to look at 3000 really quickly just to see your current state. But I think we’ll actually play with that 15 a week because that’s a very realistic goal. And it sounds like you’re well on your way to that goal. 

Erin [00:19:49] Thank you. Yes. And with the clients too. You know, we start out meeting every week. And then as their symptoms improve we go to another week. And so that fluctuates with, you know, income and whatnot. But yeah in doing just a quick calculation, if I saw 15 people at a rate of 135 for four weeks. Yeah, that would be a little bit over 8000. 

Linzy [00:20:12] Oh okay. There you go. So we’re looking at much more then. So 8000. So if we do that math like yeah let’s play with these these possibility numbers. Because that’s really I think where we need to go for you. So 8000 a month would be if you’re seeing for a week totally full, but you don’t work 52 weeks a year. You have vacation, you have three kids. If your kids are anything like my kid, they are sick a lot. They bring home all the germs. Thinking about the big, big picture, let’s zoom out to a whole year right now. How many weeks a year do you want to work and do you actually work? There’s two weeks of of like just statutory holidays. I’ll say that just between like Christmas and MLK day and those days. So thinking about your big picture, how much time do you actually not work because of sick time, holidays and vacation. 

Erin [00:20:57] Or my ideal schedule? I would love to take six weeks off in the year because part of that too is with my boys sports. We go out of town. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:08] That travel. Yes. And that’s important. Okay, so if I put – I’m just going to kind of like zoom us out to like if you worked every single day and you saw all the clients you want to see, at your rate, you would be looking at $96,000 a year if you never took a day off. We know that we want you to work 46 weeks a year, because we want you to take six weeks off. So what I’m going to do is I’m just going to do the math to bring that down. So that brings us to 84,000 a year. 84,923 is kind of like your reasonable number. If you’re full when you’re working or you average out to full, because some weeks maybe you see 18 clients, the next week you see 13. If we average out to 15 and you take six weeks off, we’re looking at 84,923 for the year. 

Erin [00:21:50] Yes. And that matches with what I have on this spread. Awesome. 

Linzy [00:21:54] Okay. So you’ve got that projection already. Beautiful. I’m going to break that down now into month. And that’s going to be 7076. So that’s what I’m going to put in the top of your profit first calculator here as your monthly revenue would be 7076. So now we’re just going to do a gut check on these numbers Erin. So for folks who are listening they obviously can’t see you because this is a podcast. But we have a calculator we’re looking at and it’s got the different categories of profit first, which is like profit, taxes, salary, operating expenses, and then we’ve got a big goal category, which is one that I always include, which is not part of core profit first, but I think is core. So we’re going to just look at the percentages and see what they mean for your numbers in this. Okay. So these are the default numbers. And we’re going to start with operating expenses because that is a different kind of number. That’s a number that you don’t pay taxes on. So we treat it a little differently. So right now if you were bringing in $7,076 on average, and we had your expenses at 30%, which is like the standard that Mike Michalowicz suggests, you would be at $2,122 a month to run your practice. How does that number land with you? 

Erin [00:22:59] That sounds very spot on, because that’s essentially where I’m at between paying for, you know, podcasting expenses, coaching, the email newsletter, the EHR, all the things, and rent office, everything adds up so quickly. 

Linzy [00:23:15] Yes it does. Okay. Yeah. Right. So that actually is what you need. So once you get to your cruising altitude that 30% operating expenses is going to cover what you need. So that’s great. You know, I would almost suggest you might want to think about it being a little bit higher. If that’s where you are now. There might be some extra expenses that come when you’re a bit busier. But for now, we’re just going to like be like, okay, we’re just gonna accept that as a gift. 

Erin [00:23:37] But that is true because it would be lovely to hire like a virtual assistant, for example. 

Linzy [00:23:44] Yes. Let’s kind of like bookmark that and look at your other numbers first and then see later if that feels like a priority compared to your paycheck. So right now with these numbers, the way that they are, Erin, your salary at 50% gives you take home cash pay – this is cash going home to you – of about $3,500 a month. So 3538 how does that number land for you? 

Erin [00:24:06] That would be lovely. 

Linzy [00:24:07] Okay, okay. So that’s a happy number. 

Erin [00:24:09] Yes. I mean, our goal is to be living simply. So our goal is to live simply. But at the same time like of course if there is more profit coming in that’s great. But so with this salary, is this also covering personal profit or is this. Do you know what I mean? 

Linzy [00:24:31] Yeah I do, so personal profit. Do you mean like extra money coming in? Like tell me more about that.  

Erin [00:24:39] On my spreadsheet. I have a monthly budget need of about $4,900. 

Linzy [00:24:47] Okay, 4900. And that 4900. Tell me what jobs that 4900 does for your household. 

Erin [00:24:52] Okay. That will cover my business expenses plus personal expenses that I have. Guesstimate it at a minimum. Let’s say. Okay. 

Linzy [00:25:02] So that also covers your business expenses. 

Erin [00:25:04] Yes. 

Linzy [00:25:05] So that that number there actually is going to include these operating expenses then. Is that right. Because that’s the money to run your business. 

Erin [00:25:12] Oh true. 

Linzy [00:25:13] Yeah. Now we’ve separated those things out. And this is one of the nice things about profit first right. Is it’s really clarifying that it’s like 2000 is for your business. This is actually just cash going home. Taxes we’re going to talk about in a minute. So this is just cash paycheck which you could pay yourself $3,500 once a month. You could pay yourself half of that twice a month. Like you get to divvy it out how you want. But this is like a sustainable number once you get to this cruising altitude that we’re talking about. 

Erin [00:25:37] Wonderful. That’s that would absolutely cover my needs and some. 

Linzy [00:25:42] Beautiful because then the other pieces here, Erin, that we always want to look at with profit first is taxes. So the taxes here, this is kind of like a side quest for you. This is some homework I’m going to give you. Is to look at you and your husband’s combined tax rate as a couple, based on what you plan to earn and what he earns from his veterans benefits. Looking at your your city and your state, you can just find online tax calculators that will do this. If you just look up tax calculator, how much will you to owe together? And what you want to look for is your effective tax rate. So that’s your average tax rate that you’re going to owe as a couple. There’s a bit of extra taxes that you will also as a self-employed person. And I have a tool for that. There’s a workshop that I have that I can link in the show notes for this episode, which walks you through how to save for taxes, like looking at your tax rate with your self-employment taxes, because those are an extra 7.5%, and making sure that between you and your husband, you’ve got it covered, right? So that’s kind of an extra side quest that you could do. What we want to make sure is that you’re just covering the amount of taxes that you are going to owe based on you and your husband filing together, because as Americans, the default is that you file jointly and you have a shared income tax rate that you have to pay. 

Erin [00:26:50] Yes. Now his military benefits are tax exempt, which is beautiful. 

Linzy [00:26:55] That is beautiful. 

Erin [00:26:56] But still with the self-employed taxes. Yes. That’s something that has been another learning curve because I can’t afford an accountant anymore like I used to. 

Linzy [00:27:06] Okay, that puts my brain off in all other directions. I do think an accountant is a worthwhile investment. I will say that. So we’re not going to go too deep into that. But I will say like that, that language of like, I can’t afford it. A decent accountant will save you much more than their fees in tax savings. Okay? Right. Because they know the rules. They love the rules. They know the new IRS benefit that’s come out that most of us don’t know about yet. And so I would you know, I’d like to challenge that as maybe a limiting story that you can’t afford an accountant. I think an accountant, any accountant who is decent, is going to make you back their fee in savings. They’re going to find you that you would not find for yourself. Okay. And then, you know you’re compliant. Yes. And it’s all done properly. 

Erin [00:27:46] Yes, I’m definitely open to that. And that’s part of the reason why I’m here today, because I do get tunnel vision with some of these obstacles. 

Linzy [00:27:55] Yes, yes, we all do. We all do. This is why we need other humans in our lives. Okay, so this tax amount then what I will tell you is that the default tax about for profit first is 15%. That’s like a really low number. It’s probably less than you need to say for your tax rate. But that’s because profit first taxes apply to all the money coming in the door. Right. We’re setting aside 15% of all of the 7000 that comes in the door, but you’re actually spending 2000 of that to run your business. Right. So that’s why it’s a lower number. You can look into, once you figure out your tax rate, modifying it to fit into profit first, we just like apply the tax rate to what’s left for you. So you’re going to take your tax rate. Let’s say you figure out your tax rate is 20%. And it might be quite low actually in North Carolina. I’m not sure of North Carolina’s tax situation, but I don’t consider it a high tax state. It doesn’t bring my brain that way. So what you’re going to do is you’re going to take the number that’s left. So you’re actually living off 70% of what comes in the business. You’re going to take the number 70 and multiply that by your tax rate. And that’s what we’re going to put in this profit first box. And since this is recording you can go back and listen to it when your podcast comes out later to guide you in that process to double check your numbers. But this 15% assumes a tax rate of about 20%, income tax about 20%, which for many people covers your needs. Especially since you have kids, you’re going to also qualify for certain benefits from the government, like there’s certain exemptions that we all qualify for. I’m going to just move forward right now, assuming that this 15% is like accurate enough that we can still play with these numbers. 

Erin [00:29:21] Okay. 

Linzy [00:29:21] Beautiful. So that would mean each month that Erin, you’re putting aside just over $1,000 for taxes as part of this equation. And then this top bit here is profit. Are you familiar with that concept from Profit First? 

Erin [00:29:33] Not really. So it’s very helpful to get this one on one feedback. 

Linzy [00:29:38] So the profit first, the concept of profit first is that most businesses the way that Mike Michalowicz puts it is they’re like money eating machines. It’s so easy for us to spend money in our businesses. And I see it for myself too. Like I’m so much faster to like, buy my team lunch out of the business and be like, oh, it was only $77. If I spent $77 on lunch out of my own budget, I’m like, oh, was that worth it? Right. It’s so easy to spend out of the business. And so the concept of profit first is we want to make sure that there’s always profit in the business. There’s extra money. And in a therapy world, you know, profit can be a dirty word, because we’re supposed to be serving people and whatever. But the way that I’ve really started to think about profit over, like, the last few years of working with therapists is profit is is your oxygen. And that’s Julie Herres’s phrase that I learned from Julie Herres, who wrote Profit First for Therapists, which I recommend, that just came out last spring. Profit is your oxygen. That’s that extra money we were talking about in your business, right? That’s the money that’s there if things go sideways, right, that’s that extra. Now, the way that I tend to teach is the profit in profit first, though, as long as you’re saving money in other places and you’re starting to build up some extra operating expense money, you’re building up some extra paycheck money, which is what I teach in Money Skills for Therapists. I teach systems to do that. Then you can actually just take all your profit. It’s going to be your reward money. It’s going to be your extra bonus money. Right. So in your case right now this is a monthly number. So it’s a 350 a month you could take for profit. You take it quarterly to reward yourself for taking risks and running a business. Right. And like doing all these hard things that you’re doing. How does that number land with you? 

Erin [00:31:20] That sounds amazing. 

Linzy [00:31:22] Okay, great. So that I’m seeing all these numbers are making your body happy, which I like. 

Erin [00:31:26] Yes. And I agree with how profit can feel like oxygen because I can imagine myself once I am in the space where am I doing this budget rework and moving my money differently will help me feel like I have that breathing room, because right now it does not feel that way. 

Linzy [00:31:45] Yes, yes. And this is where this perspective helps, right? Like when we zoom out, it’s like, okay, when you get where you want to be, which you’re not very far from that place. All these things are immediately possible, right? But part of it is we need to make the decision to make them happen, right? Because the human tendency is that we are going to either kind of spend blindly or we’re going to hold onto the money not knowing where to put it, or we’re going to put it where there’s pain. But that’s not actually what’s going to make our life better. Right? So this is why we’re we’re doing this big picture work now and zooming out before you’re even in this position of having this money. 

Erin [00:32:19] Yes. And I definitely fall into the category of putting too much money towards my pain. 

Linzy [00:32:24] Yes. Yeah. And we do that. We all do that as humans, right? It’s like your, the feeling lonely or sad. One night you’re scrolling through Instagram, you see something shiny, you buy it because it makes you feel better for literally three minutes. That’s what we do as humans, right? As we try to find the root out of our pain. But that doesn’t actually necessarily give us long term relief or long term joy or connection and the things that actually make life better. What I’m hearing is these numbers are sitting nicely with you. There’s one more piece, though, that’s not on this calculator yet, which is debt. Debt repayment. 

Erin [00:32:53] Right. 

Linzy [00:32:54] So thinking about debt, there’s a couple places here that you have opportunity then to service this debt. We have this profit money which is like 350 a month. And we also have your salary, your street cash coming home, which is about 3500 a month. We’re going to play now. So I’m going to add debt to your bottom line here. I’m going to change this big goals line on our calculator to credit card debt. 

Erin [00:33:15] Yes. 

Linzy [00:33:16] And now we’re just going to be curious about taking money from somewhere else. Because right now this adds up to 100%. Okay. We’re going to reassign some jobs from some of these dollars. So where could you see a number be a little bit lower, so we could put money towards your credit card debt. 

Erin [00:33:29] Well I guess it would have to either come from the profit or the salary category. 

Linzy [00:33:36] And if you think about your paycheck coming home being a little bit less, what number would still be a number that feels like enough? 

Erin [00:33:42] Could we try 45%? 

Linzy [00:33:45] Absolutely. So if we make that salary 45 now it’s 3184. 

Erin [00:33:49] Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:50] Yeah. How does that sit? 

Erin [00:33:52] That still covers me. Beautiful. Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:54] And then if we move that 5% over into credit card debt, then you’re putting 353 a month towards credit card debt. How does that sit with you?  

Erin [00:34:03] Yeah. Right now I’ve really been pouring all the extra into the credit card. 

Linzy [00:34:08] I hear that, I hear that, yeah. 

Erin [00:34:10] Yeah. And my goal is to be debt free by the end of the year. 

Linzy [00:34:14] Okay. So your goal is debt free by the end of the year. That credit card remind me the balance. 

Erin [00:34:18] Mmmmmm. 

Linzy [00:34:20] I know, it’s an icky number. 

Erin [00:34:22] Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. All the debts, the credit card debt is 20,000.  

Linzy [00:34:28] I did know that number. I had just written that number down, so 20,000. Okay. And that’s a really good number for us to know, because if you want to pay that number, I’m going to do some quick math just on the principle on that number. So just paying down the main amount without considering the fact that there’s interest every month to pay down $20,000 in 12 months, you’d have to put $1,066 a month before any interest has been added. Right. So we’re probably looking we can look at a calculator together if you want, but we’re probably looking more at like 2000 a month. 

Erin [00:35:02] Yeah. So then do I need to reconsider spacing that out more. Because again, like you were saying earlier, my kids are only young once. Yes, exactly. And they can’t. Yes. Like debt does not feel good. But my kids are not going to know the difference if that credit card is paid off or not. 

Linzy [00:35:22] Exactly. 

Erin [00:35:23] What they’re going to see is if I’m present with them, if we’re doing things together and I can’t. It has been such a struggle. The more I really think about it, because sometimes I do try to step away and I think I can’t continue to look at the balance like just transfer the money, pay it, walk away. 

Linzy [00:35:44] Exactly. So we’re going to take a quick look. Now I’ve just done a really quick search for credit card pay down calculator. There’s dozens of these. Most of them are websites that are selling you something. So they’re going to say and at the end debt consolidation or like join our bank. So that’s fine. We can ignore those parts because that’s not what we’re looking for. But this what I find is really helpful, Erin is like, let’s talk about real numbers, right? Like what is the actual cost of debt? Because debt is just an expense, right? It’s money that you took on. You had to cover this unexpected loss of income that happened. Right? You didn’t have just like $50,000 sitting around to cover your life for X amount of time. And so you took on debt. Debt can be part of a strategic way of managing our money. Okay. Right. If we take out those negative stories, if we take out or that I should have or I failed or make it a symbol of this bad time, if we can remove those things, it’s just another financial decision to make alongside all your other financial decisions around where money’s going to serve you best in your life. 

Erin [00:36:44] Right? Right. 

Linzy [00:36:45] So your credit card interest rate, do you have a guess or do you know your interest rate? 

Erin [00:36:50] It’s 18.15. 

Linzy [00:36:52] Yeah, that’s pretty standard okay. And right now, let’s put this down here. Desired months to pay off. This will give us that real number that we were just talking about. 

Erin [00:37:01] Okay. 

Linzy [00:37:01] If you want to pay it off in 12 months. So a year from now, I’m going to calculate you would have to make a monthly payment of 1835. Okay. And the total interest that you would pay is $2,000 for that whole year. Like that’s how much it would cost you to have held that debt for a year. Okay. Right. $2,000 on 20,000. So it’s kind of like each month. Then you’re paying $166 of interest on this pay down plan. Right. So that’s what we’re talking about is like we’re talking about making a plan that, you know, the kind of amount we’re talking about is $166 a month. Let’s just be curious about extending that timeline. Maybe this is not the most important thing in your life. 

Erin [00:37:43] Okay. 

Linzy [00:37:44] What would be another timeline that could sit nicely with you on how long you want to take to pay off this card? 

Erin [00:37:51] Can we try two years and do 24 months? 

Linzy [00:37:54] 24 months? Let’s do it. So now you’re looking at a payment of $1,000 a month, and you’re paying about double the interest. So your interest per month is 398 for that whole two years. If I divide that out by 24, you’re still paying 166 a month in interest. You’re just paying it for longer. 

Erin [00:38:12] Right? Well, I’m going to be making more money. Yeah, hopefully the longer I do this. 

Linzy [00:38:18] You are. Yep. So if we think about this like we are talking about $166 of interest a month that it’s costing you to hold this debt on average, that money, that number is going to get smaller and smaller as the debt goes down. But I’m just kind of averaging it. Right. So if we think about that, that over the whole life of your 24 months of credit card debt, it’s 166 a month. How heavy is the number 166 a month compared to the other things in your life? 

Erin [00:38:44] When you break it down like that, it doesn’t feel so heavy because that essentially is only one session a month. One hour. 

Linzy [00:38:52] 100%. So like one hour and like, I don’t know, maybe 20 minutes of your time using your expertise is covering the expense of carrying this debt. 

Erin [00:39:02] Wow. 

Linzy [00:39:03] What do you notice about that? 

Erin [00:39:05] I just feel a huge weight lifted off because I have just been so caught up in. I’ve got to get rid of this. I’ve got to get rid of this. And then to think, what am I doing? Like, it’s. Yes, I want to pay more than just the interest, pay down on the principle. But I just have other important things in my life that are a priority besides credit card interest. 

Linzy [00:39:27] Exactly. So, you know, if we think about this now, coming back to your profit first calculator, now you can put this in perspective with your other numbers, right, of like what is that timeline? I will I will share with you that I have debt associated with a backyard cottage, we built a cottage that’s our second business. So we built a cottage in our backyard. We rent to students. We’ve created like beautiful, safe housing in our community where housing is low. That is a big investment. When you’re talking about building earlier, like your husband building the house. The other thing comes to mind to me is there’s it’s always way more money than you think. Oh, it’s construction, right. So there was a big cost overages. And those cost overages mean that on top of the mortgage that we took out planning to, there’s an extra $35,000 of debt on a line of credit, right. That could cause me a lot of pain if I want to be like, oh, you know, like we weren’t told about the contractor, about that sewage. And this is the extra, like, money that it cost because people made mistakes. Like that could be really loaded money for me. Right? If I lean into that side of the story. But if I look at the other side of the story that it’s like we built this beautiful thing, right? It’s doing exactly what we want it to do. We have two wonderful students who are so conscientious and kind, who have a beautiful place to live. They literally are occupying a part of our backyard that we didn’t use. And now it’s productive, beautiful housing, you know, where they’re living out their their years as university students. When I talk about it like that and I think about like, okay, you know, at this rate we’re paying it down in four years. There’s no pain there. I actually feel really like my body feels light and excited by us doing that. That’s wonderful. Right. So it’s a different it’s it’s the same number. It’s still like going to take time to pay it down. It’s still costing me money. But I’m leaning into the other side of the story. So you know, as I’m, you know, we’re thinking about your debt, it’s like, yeah, what side of the story do you want to lean into? And what is important compared to paying down this debt. 

Erin [00:41:18] Right. Yeah. And what’s important is my family and using this money for my family, not just over focusing on the business credit card interest. 100%. 

Linzy [00:41:32] Yes. So when we look at this, then you know your profit first numbers. This is where now that we can put that in perspective, the debt right now with this 5% towards debt, it’d be 353 a month. So it’d be longer than that two year pay down period. This probably would put you more like a four year pay down period. 

Erin [00:41:48] Okay. 

Linzy [00:41:48] Is there anywhere else in here that you would want to see where you see wiggle that you’d like to see money go to the credit card instead? Or did these numbers feel good enough? 

Erin [00:41:59] I feel like right now where I am right now, currently in my life, the numbers work and perhaps I can be flexible. And once the home is built and we’re solid on all of the projects, then I can shift again. 

Linzy [00:42:17] Yes. Yes. Okay. So these numbers work for where you are. And they work for your current priorities in this specific chapter of life that you’re in. While your boys are young and you’re building this home for your family. 

Erin [00:42:30] Right? Right. And it will be gone one day. I don’t need to rush into it or force it at the expense of investing in my family. 

Linzy [00:42:42] Absolutely. Absolutely. So, Erin, what are you taking away from this conversation today? 

Erin [00:42:48] I feel so much better. Linzy. 

Linzy [00:42:52] Good. 

Erin [00:42:52] I sincerely appreciate this opportunity to talk to you, because you don’t get this kind of advice or expertise or perspective. It’s one of also my takeaways is that my credit card debt and interest is not the end of the world. I really need to, again, just like my values based practice, I really need to lean into my values and have my money match those values. 

Linzy [00:43:19] Absolutely. Yeah, and what I’m seeing, too, with your numbers, is you’re on track to get to a great place, even without changing your fee. Right. So this is your fee as it is. Right. And we started with that as part of the conversation is like you’re in a smaller place. Yeah. What is that emotion you’re showing on your face right now? 

Erin [00:43:35] Wow. That is incredible. I love I love that I don’t have to change my fee and that it is truly going to work for me. 

Linzy [00:43:45] Yes. Like the way that these numbers look right now, you just keep doing what you’re doing. Get up to this 15 a week, have that podcast help folks find you. We didn’t count your sponsorship money in these numbers either. 

Erin [00:43:58] That’s true. 

Linzy [00:43:58] So there’s a little extra there. So I’m going to give you this calculator. You can keep playing with it. Keep being curious. Add those sponsorship numbers see what’s possible. But what I’m seeing is like keep doing what you’re doing. You’re on a great track. 

Erin [00:44:09] This is wonderful, Linzy I really appreciate this. 

Linzy [00:44:12] Thank you so much, Erin, for coming on the podcast. I’m so grateful to Erin and to all of the therapists who come onto this podcast for coaching, for sharing their stories and their numbers. It’s so vulnerable. And I said that to Erin at the beginning of our recording. It’s such a vulnerable thing to do, to come on a podcast and talk about not only your personal anxieties and fears and where you are in your business, but your actual numbers. And so I’m so grateful to Erin for coming on and sharing her numbers fully, so we could actually really dig in and understand what’s happening. And in her case, see that she’s actually going to be fine. She’s in a good position and she just needs to keep doing exactly what she’s doing. And that piece about the debt. I’m really grateful that that came up today, because I was actually just thinking about it this morning before I recorded with Erin. Of conversations that I have with students inside Money Skills for Therapists about debt, and the stories and meanings that we attach to debt, and how much charge that can create around debt, and how that can make it feel so financially urgent when it isn’t necessarily going to actually be your top priority based on what else is happening in your life. So with Erin having her, her three boys and the age that they are and building a home and like basically, you know, managing their childhoods, creating a childhood for them, that in the end is actually more important to her than paying down that credit card debt and having clarity around that. In this case, it like, set her free. You know, like her, her body language at the end was so excited and relieved. And so it’s really important for all of us to think about debt. And how important is paying down that debt compared to the other things in your life? It’s one of many priorities. It is not the most important thing. 

If you want to get more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And I want to share about that workshop that I mentioned to Erin, which is the taxes workshop. It’s called Setting Enough Aside for taxes in five Easy Steps in this free workshop. You learn the real steps to make sure that your taxes are totally taken care of. You’re going to learn what mistakes to avoid when setting aside taxes for your private practice. And you’re going to learn how to use a simple and pretty tool that will tell you exactly how much to put aside to cover your own taxes each year. So I’m going to put a link to that workshop in the show notes. It’s a video and a tool to walk you through that process to get clear on your own taxes, making sure that you are setting enough aside that it’s never going to be a problem for you. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Rachel [00:00:03] It’s been such a wonderful experience of having these young, fresh minds that are tickled to be doing this. It’s been really rewarding for them of the gained experience and asking me things, but also getting to get their perspective on marketing and what’s going on in TikTok land and everything else. That’s just way over my head. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have Rachel Dorneanu talking about interns. So bringing interns into your practice. As I mentioned to Rachel, it’s not something that we’ve talked about on this podcast before. It’s not something that we’ve thought about. And the interns that we’re talking about today are not clinical interns, but they are internships from younger people, high schoolers, university, college students who are looking to build their resumes and get experience. And we talk today about how there’s an exchange there that we can make with folks about giving mentorship and guidance and giving young people a taste of private practice and running their own businesses, especially for people who might be interested in going into therapy. You know, so often they get exposure to agency kind of settings. There’s internship opportunities there, but this is a way for young people to get a taste of private practice and to see if that’s the kind of work that they might want to do. We talked today about who should bring on interns in their private practice and who shouldn’t. What kind of person is really set up and in a good position to have interns, and who is definitely not. And also the difference between the interns and virtual assistants. Understanding reasonable expectations, and also what the relationship looks like when you’re bringing on an intern, as opposed to a virtual assistant who is somebody who is running their own business and charging you for the work that they’re doing for you. This is a great conversation for therapists who are thinking about ways to bring more skills into your practice. I recently read a book called Who Not How. That makes the argument that when you have a problem in your business that is not in your zone of genius, not something that you are good at. You should ask yourself who can help you solve this problem? Not how do you solve this problem? And this is very much a who not how approach to things like getting support with social media, website, marketing. If you are looking to bring in some support into your business, and you’re also someone who really enjoys mentorship and having young people in your life, helping people get a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the therapy world, there’s going to be lots here for you in this episode. Here’s my conversation with Rachel Dorneanu. So Rachel, welcome to the podcast. 

Rachel [00:03:15] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:16] Yeah, I’m excited to have you here because, well, many reasons. One, we just started chatting and I already like you. Yeah. Two. Talking about interns, which I know is an area that you support therapists with, is something that I know very little about and something we have not talked about on the podcast before. So I’m excited about what I know you’re bringing to us today. 

Rachel [00:03:37] Oh I’m pumped. This is gonna be fun. It’s fun to talk to to the therapists. Just be like, oh, that’s an option? Interns? Yes, yes. 

Linzy [00:03:47] Okay. Okay. So I would love to hear, like, how did you end up taking this path of working with interns? Because what most folks do is they, you know, work on, like, marketing, trying to fill their practice like they’re really focused on, like, getting folks in the door, getting folks in the door. What made you take the step towards bringing on an intern as a way to increase what was happening in your practice? 

Rachel [00:04:09] Oh, gosh. So I’m trying to think, I think it was maybe 2021. So like we’re slowly crawling out of Covid and I was feeling so burned out because I was trying to magically find clients during pandemic world still and market and content plan and do Canva Pro and do all the things. And I was like, you know, I choose to not drown anymore. I can’t do it. And so it was either let me hire somebody and literally pay out the butt, which is an option, or let’s find an intern. And so from there I was like, let me for funsies, let’s see if we can find anybody that’s an undergrad that could be an intern that is even somewhat interested. And then I was overwhelmed with like 30 applications and I was like, oh, okay. So people want to do this unpaid. Great. Let me interview them. And so I ended up having since fall 2021, multiple rounds of interns that have been unpaid but have received – based on their reviews, but also from talking with them – a very helpful opportunity of mentoring for me. So, a therapist in private practice, but also ways to bond with people from around the country because I have interns in different parts of the country. Um, and being able to help them get into grad school, become a therapist, because I help them look at their resumes and CVs and personal statements because I used to work in career services as well. So being able to have that bit, while they helped me is kind of win-win. 

Linzy [00:05:44] Mhm. So there’s this like exchange that’s happening there. 

Rachel [00:05:47] It’s not like just grunt work of them being like low on the totem pole of like all the horrible stuff. They actually get something out of it. 

Linzy [00:05:53] Yes yes yes. And I’m curious. Yeah. So like what is the profile of, you know, these folks who applied for this first position. Like, who are they. And like what’s really in it for them to have this relationship with you?  

Rachel [00:06:05] So some of the people that have applied have been, uh, mainly kind of a social sciences psychology major, that kind of thing. Just people that are interested in being therapists one day anyway. But then I’ve also had, depending on the season, I’ve had a social media intern opportunity. And so I have people from communications backgrounds, marketing, PR. One person was computer science and I was like, fantastic. Yes. I want you to look at my website. Thank you. So that went really well. And so the things that they’re looking for, at least from the psych background, people, because I typically, I’m sure, you know, communications, major marketing, they always need some kind of internship anyway. Um, but psychology, they would like us to – I know, I remember from undergrad, uh, it’d be cool if you have a psychology internship when you graduate, right? But there’s so slim of options. Either you’re working a suicide hotline or you’re at a domestic violence shelter. And that’s about all the options you have, at least in Georgia. And then I’m like, you know, why not let somebody have an opportunity to play with private practice and see what the heck is actually going on, but obviously hippa-compliant. But it’s making sure that they have a way to see that it’s actually doable and an option rather than you have to go to community service or state-funded opportunities. 

Linzy [00:07:23] Mhm. Right. So you’re letting them to step in and like build their resume and get a taste for this, this certain experience, this private practice experience that most of us came to after going through other steps. First, helping these folks who don’t even- you haven’t even entered into like, any kind of licensure or training yet to like, get a taste for like this is another option for practicing. 

Rachel [00:07:46] It’s so fun. And they’re they’re so tickled to have the opportunity to just be like, I talked to a therapist right now for free. Like, keep in mind disclaimer not your therapist. But yeah, let’s talk about the mentoring and the job side and the behind the scenes because no one talks about it. Mhm. 

Linzy [00:08:01] You know it’s funny. It makes me think about when I was thinking about my career path, and thinking about going to school for social work. I did information interviews. Maybe I just did one. But yeah, like how impactful it was for me to sit down with somebody. And I sat down with somebody who was like, I think she was an executive director at an organization, and it wasn’t even an organization that was necessarily values aligned for me, but just that she was working with folks, you know, in the way that I wanted to be working with people in the future and like, get to talk to her about what was great about that, what was hard about it. She talked about how like, she didn’t talk about her work to like, friends or family or at parties, like she really had to kind of keep it close to her chest because it’s so heavy and like things that, yeah, I remember being so hungry for that kind of contact and that kind of insight before I headed down a certain road. And I can imagine that for folks who would be interning with you or want to intern, it’s like they’re getting that times 50. 

Rachel [00:08:54] Yeah, exactly. It’s a whole semester of informational interviews. 

Linzy [00:08:58] Right? Yeah. Yes. So for you, like, as a as a therapist in private practice, what is it like managing these interns, this team of interns that you have had at different times? 

Rachel [00:09:09] Uh, I have so many stories. I’ve had some really, truly wonderful experiences. Some that I feel like you’re not allowed to leave. I have to hire you. Mhm. Like, so I now have someone that was a past intern that is now the blog editor. I have someone that was a past intern is now the intern supervisor. And so- which is just super fun. I had a past intern that became a social media manager for a hot minute. And that was- it’s just been so fun to watch their progress and be like, you’re so wonderful, you’re not allowed to leave. How do I keep you? Like, oh, that’s been fantastic. There’s also been some moments of where maybe there were some ghosting or there was maybe a life happened to them kind of moment. I was like, Look, hey, therapist here, completely understand, please go take care of yourself or family, whatever’s going on, I support you, I’m not going to write some horrible letter about you to somebody because you have life happen and as long as you’re honest and willing to communicate with me, you’re solid in my book. So just make sure that any therapists that are looking to hire interns that keep in mind they’re in their 20s, their early 20s, maybe like 18 year old, depending on what’s going on. I’ve had a high school junior reach out. Baby, baby, super precious, and I was like, I’m so sorry, you’re a minor and you’re in another state and that gets parents involved. And that’s complicated. But it’s been such a wonderful experience of having these young, fresh minds – wow I sound old – young, fresh minds that are tickled to be doing this, it’s been really rewarding for them of the gained experience and asking me things, but also love getting to get their perspective on marketing and what’s going on in TikTok land and everything else. That’s just way over my head. Mhm. And you’re like, hey, actually that’s trending. And here’s a site that helps you do all this for free. I said oh yes, yes we want that thing. 

Linzy [00:11:05] Totally. Yes. I have had this moment many times over the last couple years where I realize like, oh, I middle age like that happened at some point. I think it happened over Covid. For me, it’s like I went into Covid like pretty young and I came out like middle-aged. So there are all sorts of things that, yeah, like, I don’t know anymore. And I notice, you know, my son is now into, um, YouTube influencers. So it’s like, you know, 20 there’s this one guy he watches especially he’s like a 20-year-old man who’s like, of course, really good at Lego because he’s 20 years old. But when he like he’ll he’ll say words that I literally don’t understand and can only understand like in context and like, yeah, there’s a whole other vernacular happening. There’s like whole other like worlds of references that I just don’t even know what they are anymore. 

Rachel [00:11:49] Like, like, What’s Up or Rad or Coolio or any of those words that were like 90s babies. 80s babies. Um, those are done. 

Linzy [00:11:59] Don’t say that. Yes, yes. Yeah. And like I have heard colleagues of mine who end up kind of working with therapists who are younger, like a colleague of mine who is a speech language pathologist and helps people build their practice and has found that she’s getting more folks like in their mid 20s. She has a social media manager in their mid 20s because she can’t keep up with memes. Right. And so like there is this like, yeah, a whole world of culture that yeah is happening. And then the generations below us. Well, gosh, I know because what I’m hearing here to like, as you’re talking to this is like what I get from you is really this like passion for relationships and mentorship. Is that fair. 

Rachel [00:12:39] A Million percent. 

Linzy [00:12:40] To say. Yeah. And that makes me curious. Like as folks are listening, if they’re thinking about it like, oh, I’ve never considered bringing in interns into my own practice. But there’s things like social media or tech or whatever that I could definitely use some support with. Who would you recommend is a natural fit for bringing on interns, and who might not be as happy with bringing an intern into their practice. 

Rachel [00:13:04] That is a great, great question. I’m gonna start positive first. So for someone that was. Would really do well with hiring an intern would be somebody that is somewhat, I mean, somewhat similar to me. That is being really excited about mentoring, that I just really like you, that you are just going after you have an hour, uh, information interview in a sense, with somebody like, yes, here’s what’s happened to me. This is mine. This is what you don’t want to do. This is some things that can help you with your resume after you leave me. If that really just, like, gets you going, that’s what you want to do. You want to hire an intern because they are just going to eat it up. I am so grateful. This is a mutual respect, attitude kind of situation for people that it may not be a good fit. If you are stretched too thin, if you are feeling burnout and you’re going to end up having more of a cynical view about the therapy world, trying to talk to an intern about it, please don’t. Let’s do therapy bits first, work through the burnout first, read the Emily Nagasaki book about burnout. 

Linzy [00:14:17] Yes. 

Rachel [00:14:18] Read that first and then, you know, talk to me and find an intern. But just because we don’t want to burst your bubble, we need so many more therapists in the world. I come from an abundance mindset. We need more therapists. We need different kinds of therapists. 

Linzy [00:14:33] Yes. 

Rachel [00:14:34] And so if you’re going to come at it from a cynical, I just need you to do the grunt work, I just need to do the social media marketing, the blog post, whatever else, just so I can get more SEO. Probably your better bet is to hire somebody that’s a VA that’s going to easily just take the whole shebang. Knows what they’re doing. And there you go. 

Linzy [00:14:53] Right? Yeah. Because there’s an interpersonal exchange here like they’re being paid in relationship by like having that access to you and your brain and your experiences and your mentorship. So what I’m hearing is like if you’re cynical or if you’re done with humans, please don’t do that to somebody. 

Rachel [00:15:10] Please don’t. 

Linzy [00:15:11] Don’t put that on a young person who’s excited about stepping into our field, which I do think is really helpful because like, if I think about my own experiences with coming up and like interning as a social work student, the therapists who were like had that genuine spark. Like that was really exciting, you know, to see and to learn from them. But like the folks who were like burnt out or cynical like that was not, uh, not very inspiring as a young person coming into the field. And I probably didn’t pick up very much. That was very helpful from them. Yeah. So what I’m hearing then is like, if you are like a people person and if you have something to give because you are you are exchanging mentorship for their help. So you have to make sure that you actually have the bandwidth and the desire to give that mentorship. And I think that’s so important because, I mean, it makes me think about the parallel of group practice, right? So many folks like who are therapists, who are in solo practice, once they get to the certain point of busyness, just think like, well, I’ve got more clients than I can handle. I’m just going to hire somebody else. I’m just going to make a group like it’s this low hanging fruit. And I had a call today with one of my Money Skills for Therapists students. I was like, it’s not that I’m trying to talk you out of starting your practice, but if I do talk you out of starting a group practice, I won’t be sorry because you have to have that spark. Like, you have to be someone who loves to manage other people and who’s there for some of the messiness, who’s maybe ready to be ghosted if somebody like, has a mental health crisis come up and like, you need to have that to give, right, like that solidity and that like love for people. And if you don’t have that, you’re going to hate having group practice. And I would also assume if you’re going to have that, you’re not going to be really good at giving somebody an internship experience. 

Rachel [00:16:43] No, no, make sure you’ve you’ve got your whole – I won’t say your head on right, because none of us are really all that, right? But make sure that you’re in a mindset and headspace of this is not only going to just benefit me and my practice, and my brain is going to help this other person. Like you need to have that in goal in mind. Light at the end of the tunnel, that this intern is going to come out so much better from doing this, from hearing my thoughts and my perspective on how things have happened, hearing my story, my journey to becoming a therapist. If that’s not where your brain is, just just wait a little bit. Mhm mhm. 

Linzy [00:17:20] Yeah. So if people are listening and they’re like yeah no that’s me, I’m here, I would be really interested in that. Tell me about hiring interns. Like in the place of hiring a VA. Is that something- can one substitute for the other or do you see those as different things? Tell me about that.  

Rachel [00:17:41] That’s tough. If you find a unicorn that happens to have all of the VA experience that you want and you can somehow magically not pay them. Personally I’m a little concerned that they’re not advocating for themselves to be paid. 

Linzy [00:17:56] Right. 

Rachel [00:17:57] You know of now there’s really like I just I have the skill but I don’t have the, the, the background history, the years experience. Yeah, let’s play with it. But most of the time interns come in. And so keep that in mind when you start having applications come in for an internship. Um, they may not have a whole heck of a lot on their resume. Especially if they’re from a psych background. They probably have like, I made a marketing flier for a club in high school. Yeah. It’s like cool. Congrats. Canva is fantastic. That’s a skill. Please use that. Mhm. But it’s very unlikely that they’re going to have this really beautiful VA background. And for you to play with and interview them at like a VA level. Definitely keep that in mind in terms of hiring a VA though. I mean hopefully if you find somebody that’s really trained and knows their stuff, they’re going to be checking in and asking you questions in the interview. I’m going to have the nope, I don’t have any questions, thanks. 

Linzy [00:18:56] Yes. Big smile. 

Rachel [00:18:57] Like, hey, what’s your brand voice? What are you looking for? Who’s your ideal client? How can I market to them? What kind of CTAs call to action do you want to use? What I look at your feed is all x, y and z. Here’s how I want to write. A VA hopefully is doing that. Interns are like, it looks cool. Thanks for letting me know that that was something you enjoyed looking at, because that means that your demographic, which I actually work with, is enjoying it. Right? But just keeping in mind that that those interviews can be starkly different in terms of. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like what I’m hearing is with internship, it’s not that you’re getting free skilled labor, it’s that you’re helping someone build skills and build a resume so they can go on, you know, to work in their field of choice. But yeah, you, you are helping someone fill their resume. 

Rachel [00:19:49] Mhm. Exactly. Have a very different mindset with that of you may be depending on the intern and who you find, but you may be literally hand-holding and going through like entire intern handbook and outline. And you might be building that with this sweet little intern guinea pig. Um, hey, this is how you do Canva. This is how you make a reel. This is how you find captions and hashtags and Google Trends and Google Analytics and all that, all the things. Mhm. But you might be hand-holding for a bit because that’s the orientation and that’s the training that they’re going to need to eventually at the end of the semester make your business fruitful. 

Linzy [00:20:26] Right. 

Rachel [00:20:26] So keep that in mind. If you find a unicorn that already knows all the things. Oh my gosh I love that. Congrats. Send me their twin, right. But it is unlikely.  

Linzy [00:20:38] Yeah absolutely. Yeah. Because what I’m hearing is like, one is not a substitute for the other. Right. Like this is a this is a different thing. So if folks are listening and they’re like oh I could just get stuff my VA does for free. Probably not. No. No different levels of experience, different levels of skill. But what I’m hearing is an offering internship is awesome. If you really enjoy mentorship and if you want to have like a positive impact on somebody who might want to come into our field or who’s building great experience, it can be a really nice way for you to mentor someone and get some more support in your practice. 

Rachel [00:21:09] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:21:10] So, Rachel, this is what you help folks do. So can you tell us more about what you do and where people can find you? 

Rachel [00:21:18] Yeah. So website, all the socials, all the things is where you can find me. And basically how you hear me talking right now is how I interact with people. I don’t have this stuffy, holier-than-thou bit and that, no, that’s not me, but I really am going to make sure that I go above and beyond for you. I want to make sure that whatever it is that you’re trying to find, that we are going to personalize the crap out of it, that we’re going to find a way to, if you want this unicorn intern, let’s figure out how to find them. Let’s figure out what skills are, what’s the job description, what’s the place that you want to post the intern posting? How do you want to do the application? Like I walk you through every single painful process that there’s no handbook on that. How do you manage? There’s no cute little handbook yet. I’m working on it. Um, but. Or like an online course coming soon, but we’re not- school doesn’t teach us that. Every single episode with you is like it is not a thing. Business is not covered. Money is not covered. It’s go to community service board and for the rest of your life. So just keep that in mind that there’s an entire process to it. It takes a minute and also to be kind to yourself, because you may find a really lovely person, does a lovely human, but an intern? Um, not so much. So be kind to yourself. That only especially of the perfectionist therapist out there. Hello. Don’t have this expectation of I’m going to find this one perfect person, and every intern after that is going to be fantastic. You may have a great first couple of interns, and the next ones are getting a little wonky. That doesn’t mean you failed. That doesn’t mean that you have done something wrong or that that person was horrible. Therefore, all interns are horrible. That all or nothing thinking that we tend to do. Yeah. Nope. Just find the next round. Feel like, you know what a lovely time, but not going forward. Hopefully you can tell just I want to make sure that all the perfectionist people-pleasing people that y’all are taking care of, because I know you want to help people. I know you want to expand your practice in some way, shape or form, whether through marketing, expanding the group practice, whatever it might be. Just please be gentle with yourself because it is exhausting sometimes. Coming up with an entire intern handbook, coming up with training videos for future interns, coming up with all the agreements, all the legal bits that you got to cover. That takes time. Please don’t think you’re throwing it together in one week and you’re going to find somebody. 

Linzy [00:23:47] Mhm mhm. 

Rachel [00:23:49] And so that’s why you have me because I did all the stuff for you. 

Linzy [00:23:54] And where can people find you. 

Rachel [00:23:56] Yeah. So my website, my socials, sagecounselingtherapyandwellness.com. It is the longest domain humanly possible. So sorry one day we’ll find another domain name that’s not as long. And then sage counseling wellness is on all the socials. All the things. Please connect with me. I love to have more connections. Obviously I like to interact with people. I could talk all day, but otherwise it is just something that really makes my heart happy. And so if anything, this is more of like beta pricing right now and where the calls are for mentor calls and we can kind of schedule however many you need. At some point it will become an online course and then I’ll, you know, bump up the price and make it worthwhile. But for now, I just want people to like, help people and get a couple more reviews and so if you want the beta pricing, now would be the time to do it 

Linzy [00:24:45]  Getting in on the beta is always a good idea. Thank you so much, Rachel, for joining us today. And I’m sure there’s been some seeds planted now of folks listening, thinking about things that they could maybe bring on an intern, hopefully some beautiful intern relationships come out of this podcast today. 

Rachel [00:25:01] I hope so. Well, thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:25:17] A really important part of what Rachel mentioned today, that I think you should really be emphasized is in these kinds of internship relationships, there has to be an exchange. I think that there is the the negative association with internships, you know, like people I don’t know, interning at some sort of entertainment company. And they just have to get people coffees all day and they don’t actually get to be part of anything. And they’re really doing the stuff that nobody else wants to do and get no respect. That is not what we’re talking about here. That is not ethical. I don’t think that really aligns with what we’re trying to do for the world as therapists. She’s really talking about bringing somebody into your practice when you have the bandwidth to mentor and support somebody and help them build skills, like you’re going to be actively training them and supporting them a lot, helping them really consciously building certain skills and having certain experiences so they can put them on their resume so that they’re in a position to apply for the programs that they want to apply to, or step into paid work in an area where they don’t have previous experience. So this is really about an exchange, and I think that’s a really important element of this. And I can see how valuable that exchange could be for a young person. As I mentioned in our conversation. Like, I remember how much I appreciated when people who were ahead of me down the path that I was considering going on, when they would talk honestly with me and tell me all the great things and all the hard things about the work, that helped me make an informed decision of what path I wanted to take. And this is a chance for, you know, folks listening for us to do the same kind of thing for young people who are considering stepping into therapy or into the kind of health work that we do. So if you’re curious about Rachel, you can go to Sage Counseling Therapy and Wellness.com and get in on that. Those beta offers that she has as she’s building out these resources for therapists. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @MoneyNutsandBolts. And if you’re looking for more resources to dig into your relationship with money and getting it working for you in your private practice, I want to tell you about a guide that I have called Six Simple Steps to six Weeks Vacation. This guide is for therapists who find themselves overworking in their practice and going long stretches without taking any time off. For therapists who might notice jealousy creeping in when you hear your clients talk about their amazing vacations, when you feel like you can’t even afford to take any time off, let alone go away somewhere. And it’s for therapists who want to actually build into their schedule, replenishment so you can come back to your work feeling refreshed and excited to dive back into that work with your clients. This free guide walks you through the process of the mindset and steps to set aside as much money as you want to for your paid time off next year. So that’s for vacations. It’s also for holidays. It’s for sick time. The guide teaches you a system to put money aside and includes, of course, because it’s for me, a pretty calculator for you to play with. That will tell you exactly how much you need to save to cover your paid time off, but also to cover your vacation goals if you’re looking to travel. The guide also shows you how to put aside money for that so you can find that guide at moneynutsandbolts.com/sixweeksvacationguide and we’ll put the link to the show notes as well. Thanks for listening today. 

Deanna [00:00:02] As a business owner, it makes you feel like you’re not the one in control, right? You’re going out on a limb wanting to try something new, and you’re getting pushback about your own business. I’m glad that there’s communities out there like yours, Linzy, and covers professionals that can work with your business and see that same vision that you do, because you can’t always do it alone, right? Most of us can’t. So you’re able to find the help that is supportive and what you’re looking for. It makes all the difference. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Uh, you’re going to hear on the episode today that my voice is rough, but I am excited to be bringing you this episode. Today’s episode is about banking. So banking is probably one of the toughest and least appealing topics for many, many people. But what I’m excited about today is we are going to be talking about banking and getting your bank set up to actually work for you and take care of you with the folks from Relay. So Deanna Zubrickas is here from Relay, and in our conversation today, we talked about the emotional stories that she sees coming up around money for the folks that they support at Relay. We talked about the friction that we can encounter from financial institutions and the stories that we can have about financial institutions, and how that impacts our confidence and our relationship to money. And we talk more about profit first. So whether you are already using profit first in your business or if you’re curious about profit first, Relay is the official banking platform of profit first. And so we talk today about that model, the multiple bank accounts, how to make it really work for you. What can be helpful about it? I’m a big fan of profit first, I’ve been doing it for probably about 7 or 8 years now. I’ve gone through different stages of doing it more and less, like with other types of tracking. And now I will say in my own business, it is the budgeting strategy that I use in Money Nuts and Bolts. So for this current company that I have, I just use profit first for budgeting and look at my bank account to help me make strategic financial decisions, along with some other tracking that I do, looking back, but I don’t use any other budgeting software. I just use profit first. It can be a very powerful and clarifying tool. So whether it’s something that you’re already using or curious about, there’s lots in this conversation with Deanna today about profit first, about Relay, and really about claiming your power around money, but also banking and knowing that you are actually entitled to finding a bank that works for you and serves your needs. Here’s my conversation with Deanna Zubrickas. So, Deanna, welcome to the podcast. 

Deanna [00:03:13] Hey, Linzy, thank you so much for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:14] Yeah, thank you for being here. We were just joking before recording that. I do sound deathly ill. I would like to assure folks listening that I am not actually deathly ill, but my voice has decided to just, I don’t know, take a half vacation today. 

Deanna [00:03:27]  I’m choosing to participate today.  

Linzy [00:03:31] Yes, yes. So I am here. Not all my voice is here, but I still think we’re going to be able to have a great conversation today. Deanna, I’m very excited to have you here. So you are here from Relay Bank. So for folks who are not familiar with Relay yet and what you folks do, can you tell us a little bit about Relay? 

Deanna [00:03:47] Yeah, absolutely. So Relay is an online-only business banking platform. So everything we do is virtual and we help small businesses across the U.S. with their banking needs. So we offer like 20 checking accounts. Our payments are free. We connect to the rest of your tech stack, which is really important as a business owner. And we do that all virtually. So believe it or not, it actually kind of makes banking a little bit more fun than you might have originally thought of, which is kind of cool. And it’s all just about, you know, banking that is more accessible to the small business owner and works alongside their business rather than against it. 

Linzy [00:04:17] Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. And that is something that I so appreciate about you folks. Like I have a partnership with you folks. You approached me and I was like, oh thank goodness. Like, where have you been? Because one of the questions that has come up for so many years as I’ve supported Americans, I’m a Canadian, but most of the students in my course are American, is like we used to call it, the unicorn bank. Like, where’s that unicorn bank? Like, where’s the bank that actually makes it easy to open multiple bank accounts, because we teach profit first in Money Skills for Therapists. And not everybody chooses that route because it’s a choose-your-own adventure. But many people do because it is helpful. You know, it’s a helpful system to be able to have that clarity. But then so often people go to their bank and either like they get the look from their the banker like they’re insane, like, what are you doing? Or sometimes people actually try to talk them out of it, like, what is this? And I’ve heard this with accountants too, where they’re like, you don’t need this. Like people who are like real numbers people who don’t understand what the function of that is for people who don’t live and breathe numbers. Or it’s just really difficult, like it’s prohibitively expensive or there’s like limitations. Um, so like lots of barriers for people being able to set up their bank accounts in the way that they want to. And so I love that you folks have stepped in and been like, we are solving this. 

Deanna [00:05:23] We’ve got it. Let’s take this into our own hands. Right? 

Linzy [00:05:26] Yeah, yeah. 

Deanna [00:05:27] I love the term unicorn bank because a lot of times I’ll be talking to a customer and usually I kind of open with, you know, what are you what are the challenges you deal with at your current business bank. And oftentimes they’re usually pretty honest and say, you know, it’s fee related, it’s access tech related, whatever the case may be. And the other half will say, oh, I don’t have any problems. And by the time, you know, our conversation is done and I’ve showed them what Relay can do or what your experience can be like, they’re like, I didn’t know that banking could be like this. So it’s almost like what you don’t know is the problem. Because we’re so used to feeling so settled at our banks and not feeling true content. Right. And there are other options out there. And so that’s one of the parts of my job that I love is like, show you what you don’t know. So that’s pretty great. 

Linzy [00:06:05]  Totally. Well, I just had a conversation the other day on one of my calls from a course where people are talking about this dynamic that I think is also there with banks, where it’s almost like you feel this weird loyalty to the bank that you’ve been with. And like I was saying, how like, I still remember my first bank account number from when I was nine years old. Like it was a big deal getting my first bank account. And like, I had my own money. And it was a big decision when I left that bank and was like, yeah, this is actually really annoying. This is expensive. I don’t want to deal with you anymore. But it did feel almost like leaving a doctor, right? There’s almost like some authority there that I think sometimes we’re scared, like, am I allowed to leave? But yeah, what I’m hearing from you is like, sometimes when you look around, you might realize that there’s so many things that you’re not getting that you’re just used to because you’ve probably been with your bank for years and years and years. 

Deanna [00:06:51] Exactly. It’s- you’re basing it on history versus are they actually supporting my business the way I want them to. 

Linzy [00:06:56] Right. 

Deanna [00:06:56] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s usually the conversation that we have. And maybe, you know, fully leaving your bank isn’t the right decision for you. Maybe using, you know, 80% Relay and 20% your local branch is a better decision. And you get the best of both worlds because nothing is a one-size-fits-all, no matter what we want to think out there. But you have to do what’s best for your business. And just based on loyalties, that’s not a good enough reason sometimes, right? 

Linzy [00:07:17] Yes, absolutely. So I’m curious, like, how did you end up at Relay, like working for a bank that specializes in profit first, it’s very specific. How did you end up there? 

Deanna [00:07:27] I get this question a lot, especially from family members, because it’s very different from my background. So I also based in Ontario, Canada. So I went to school here in Toronto, and as soon as I graduated, I was like, uh, I need to find a job, you know, start paying my rent, all that good stuff. And I fell into retail and I fell into that full time. I ended up, you know, making my way up. I managed a few different stores for a few different major brands at some of the bigger malls here in Toronto, and I love the fast-paced environments. I was happy that I was getting career advancement and able to support myself, and my dream was to, you know, manage multiple stores at one time. And then Covid hit, and this was right after I had switched brands, and that was still my trajectory. You know, I want to have multiple stores. I want to work with multiple teams at one time and it was no longer an option. The retail landscape changed so drastically all over the world, obviously with Covid, but obviously it felt right at home for me. It hit me right there. So I end up losing my job during Covid because of that. It just, you know, retail wasn’t what it used to be. And I had to pivot. And so I looked at my skills and thought, okay, what am I good at? What have I been doing this whole time in retail. And it’s been selling. Right, instead of business to customer, you know, maybe I should try the business to business sector. So I ended up actually getting connected with a career talent agency that helped me apply to multiple startups in the area, like maybe startups I wouldn’t have found originally and Relay happened to be on that list. And it’s funny because when I think back at my first interviews with the team, I couldn’t really articulate at that time what Relay did, what we were selling, like what it was that we were putting out there in the world. But it was the team at Relay that had my heart immediately, and I was like, whatever they’re doing, I want to be on that team and I want to be part of that. And so that was like, what got me to take this leap of faith. You know, I went back entry-level after managing, you know, multiple people. And it was a hard step down. But then once I got to understand, we’re actually building this really incredible platform for small businesses. And now, you know, I’ve been at Relay for almost three years, which is crazy to say. It’s like an eternity in the startup world. But getting to see the impact at a small business owner level and now being, you know, profit first certified myself and part of that community, it’s taken on a whole new meaning for me about what Relay can do and what you can learn from, you know, using Relay and profit first together. If you had asked me where I would have been, you know, three years ago, today, I would have never answered that. But it’s pretty incredible. And that’s kind of how I ended up at Relay. But it was the people first that got me here. And then it’s the product and the client relationships I have now, which is why I stay. 

Linzy [00:10:03] Yeah. And that is something that I’ve noticed about Relay, which is like this interesting dichotomy to what you often see in banks is like first of all, I only dealt with women, which I love. 

Deanna [00:10:12] I also love that. 

Linzy [00:10:14] And there is this real like down to earth quality. Like again, I think that so often with banks there is this like old school, like stuffy men in suits authority of like you don’t worry about this little lady. Like we’ve got this for you. Like that kind of paternalistic vibe, which I think for my people too. It’s like for folks who are used to being really confident, used to being able to do really hard work as therapists. Right. And like, you know, therapists tend to be achievers. The folks who listen to this podcast tend to be achievers. And so when there’s something that we’re not good at, we feel really insecure and can have a lot of shame. And then when you’re interfacing with an institution that also thinks you’re not good at it, or also doesn’t want to make it easy for you to create the solutions that you need to manage money for your brain. It just reinforces that, like money is hard, it’s for like the big boys. Yeah. You know, like it’s it’s complicated, it’s suits. It’s all these things. And it’s refreshing to see more women moving into the financial space and creating tools that actually make sense for people who are not bankers. 

Deanna [00:11:12] Like, literally. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And I think a word we use internally every day is, is we want it to be like human. And I think that’s a great descriptor for that. And I totally agree with you. There’s so many business owners that I speak to and they get into business for their passion for the service they’re providing, the goods that they’re selling, not for the financial aspect. So when you’re walking into a bank and you’re having to explain to someone why the heck you might want five accounts, you know, you turn it back on yourself, you’re like, okay, did I not explain it? Why do I not know why I need this? Like, and you know, it’s an act of showing up for yourself, I think, to go set that up. But if you don’t get that back from, you know, the institution, you’re working with, it does definitely make you feel insecure and kind of makes you rethink at all when it shouldn’t. But I definitely I understand. 

Linzy [00:11:54] It does. And I’ve even had a situation before where somebody talked to their accountant about how they were setting up profit first, and their accountant was like, oh, that doesn’t work. I see people start it and then they quit, like, don’t bother. Yeah. And actually like telling somebody to like, not bother to take the actions that they want to take to gain financial empowerment like I think is just so irresponsible as a professional. Like it really is about kind of keeping the power with people who, like, are professionals and not letting folks be empowered in their own financial lives. Like I, I take serious issue with that. 

Deanna [00:12:25] I am right there with you. 

Linzy [00:12:27] But it can be a huge deterrent. But if somebody is coming to that place where they’re like, okay, I understand, like I want to do profit first. I want to have some multiple bank accounts. I want to have that clarity. And then they go to their bank, or they go to their accountant and they get active pushback, and they feel like they have to pitch and sell and, and convince the person that they’re making a good choice when they’re just trying something out. It’s a huge deterrent. And for some people that just, like stops them in their tracks and they’re just like they end up trying to cut corners on profit first. Like, I see this all the time where people try to combine bank accounts, like combine their income and operating expense account, especially because it’s hard to get multiple accounts, so they don’t have to pay more, and then they end up losing the clarity that makes profit first so good. Yes, because they’re trying to work with an institution that doesn’t want to work with them. 

Deanna [00:13:10] Yeah, I think as a business owner, I would assume it makes you feel like you’re not the one in control, right? You’re going out on a limb wanting to try something new, and you’re getting pushback about your own business. So I’m glad that there’s communities out there like yours, Linzy, and covers professionals that can work with your business and see that same vision that you do, because you can’t always do it alone, right? Most of us can’t. So being able to find the help that is supportive and what you’re looking for makes all the difference. 

Linzy [00:13:36] So something that I talk about a lot on this podcast and with my students in my various programs is money stories, right? Like, there’s there’s all the skills of money. There’s the systems that we’re talking about here, like setting up a great bank account system that gives you clarity. But so much too of money is the emotions and the stories that we have and the experiences. I’m curious, in your experience, Deanna, like working with business owners who are getting set up with Relay, like what money stories have you seen come up with your customers? 

Deanna [00:14:09] There’s been quite a few. And when you first mentioned this, like there’s one specific example that comes to mind and it sounds like it’s very similar to your community. It was the psychiatrist that I had met, her accountant or bookkeeper introduced me to her, and usually I, I kind of take you on a tour through Relay at that point. And this psychiatrist happened to be doing profit first already for two years at their local bank and was in love, like, absolutely in love with the method, but didn’t know, didn’t really understand her own pain points with her own bank until she had like seen the capabilities that Relay had. So we’d kind of gone into it and it was this big conversation about, you know, physically, I had to go into my branch and spend hours of my day away from my patients, away from my schedule, what I’m good at doing, to open these accounts. And then the user experience on her online platform was super messy and super clunky. She couldn’t get the multiple accounts to work out. She wanted to make sure she obviously kept with the method. She felt so discouraged about it the entire time, and because that was so evident, like in her bank accounts and the way she spoke about it, her accountant also picked up on that as well and was like, your books are a mess. What’s going on here? How can we fix this? And obviously, if you’re paying an expert to look at your finances and the thing they say is like you’re a mess, even though you know, you’re putting all this time and effort into learning, trying to do something new with your finances and get ahead. It was really just all around very discouraging for them. And so we obviously we turned around the conversation and Relay offered different things like being able to automate those transfers, being able to actually get more clarity by having the separate buckets. You’re not forced to like double up in between the different accounts. You can run it how you see profit first in your business, which I think is the important part, because that’s a different definition to everybody. But it was yeah, it was the pushback from her own bank and her own accountants, who she had been with for a long time, that made her insecure in what she was doing for her business. And when you are in business to be a psychiatrist, again, probably numbers aren’t your strong suit. So you’re already going out on a limb here. So it was it was definitely an emotionally driven conversation because by the end of it, it was like, wow, there’s another option out here for me. Like I can feel confident doing this. I can feel confident making more decisions like this for my business and not to mention the confidence level, but also all the time I’m going to save instead of sinking like this clunky manual process that I’m forcing myself doing now. And I’m seeing results. So it’s still great. But like, think about the time that I’m getting back now. Like whether that’s more patients to work with, working on more processes, doing something in your personal life. Right. That can mean anything. But getting that confidence back. And this is how I want to run my business. And I’m, you know, I’m going to do it the way I want. It was a big deal. 

Linzy [00:16:53] Absolutely. Like it’s having a tool that’s actually working for you rather than like, I don’t know, trying to hammer in a nail with like, a feather duster. Yeah. Like this is really hard. Really, really trying. But it’s very difficult. Yeah. Having that right tool and the automation pieces is really neat. Like that’s something that we don’t talk about that a lot in Money Skills for Therapists because that work that I initially do with folks is like building that relationship with money and being able to look at it and touch it. And at first that manual piece is really important. Like I always do a lot of like I’m motioning right now, nobody can see this because I’m on a podcast. It’s just you and I who see this, but I’m making like a motion, kind of like with my hands towards my body of the like doing the doing motion right. And I think that doing that living money and that almost like kinesthetic experience of money is really important for people to understand, like, oh, I get it, I do this and then this happens, I do this and then this. And I think that’s a really important part of the learning process. But once you have done that learning and once you understand, okay, okay, here’s the flow. I’ve been part of a flow having tools that can automate that flow. So you’re not actually having to sit down and do it, but instead you can look at what’s been done is a real time saver in our businesses, because chances are this is not actually the most important task that you need to do manually yourself. There’s probably other things that would be better uses or higher uses of your talent. So that automation piece is a really beautiful feature that you folks have to like, basically buy back people’s time. 

Deanna [00:18:16] Exactly. And this was actually a big discussion when we were about to release this, this automation rule. We’re very tied in, obviously, to the first community and the people that cofounded that community. And really the feedback they got was, this is the exact same thing you’re saying, Linzy, like, the automation is great, but what about for those for starters? So when I am in a conversation with somebody who’s, hey, I’m just starting probably first, how do you suggest it? I agree it’s we have the manual option and that’s like it’s choose your own adventure. Do you want manual? Do you want automation? You can do both at a certain point too. And it’s so important to understand that cash flow. It’s like building that muscle memory until you can kick in to the automation. And so that’s what I think is is really great about the platform, because no matter where you’re at, we’re going to meet you there. Yeah. And I think that’s really important. 

Linzy [00:18:59] Yeah. That customizable aspect is so powerful. And that’s something that I’m a big fan of, you know, with folks, with our finances generally is like, it’s so easy to think that there’s only one right way to do it. And if we need to do it differently or if we are doing it differently, we’re doing it wrong. And there’s so much shame that can come with that. But like what I teach is like, find a tool that works for your brain, set it up so it works even better. Work on things at the pace that works for you on the day of the week. That works for you. If it’s 11:00 Friday night, that’s great, right? If it’s 5 a.m. Sunday morning, that’s great. Right? It’s like getting to know yourself and like, I love that level of control that folks have within your platform because it’s like they can choose to automate if they want. They can turn it off when they don’t want it. They can change the rules. They can do it manually. They can do a blend like that customizable aspect really lets you set it up so that it works for your brain. Exactly. Which ultimately is what money should do for us and what our system should be doing for us. 

Deanna [00:19:51] Exactly. And that’s what the whole profit first method is about, right? It’s it’s a starting block. You take it how far or you’re supposed to mold it into how it’s going to work for your business. And it’s just a lot of the products we use up until now don’t allow you to do that. So it’s it’s almost like your own mindset shift, right? Doing profit first is a mindset shift, but then doing it how you want is also another what. 

Linzy [00:20:11] Totally. Yeah. So for folks who are listening and maybe have heard a profit first and know that it’s a bunch of bank accounts, and you would have gathered this in this conversation if you didn’t already. Something that I know can be a barrier with, like the idea of trying profit first is like one bank account is hard enough to set up. Now we’re supposed to set up like five. Like, doesn’t that make stuff harder? Right? And like more confusing and more complicated rather than easier? What can you tell me like from your perspective, in your experience, what that value is of those separate bank accounts? 

Deanna [00:20:45] Yeah, it’s funny when I do talk to business owners and they don’t come in for the profit first perspective and they’re like, why the heck you know, you can have 20 accounts on Relay. Why the heck would I need 20 accounts? And so it’s always funny when that question comes across and I actually feel like Mike, the author of Profit First, has a really great explanation for this. And it’s about using Parkinson’s Law. Right? Like if you have one business bank account and all of your money is in that one bank account, you’re going to look at that and think, I’ve got money to blow. I can buy all new products. 

Linzy [00:21:13]  I’m rich. 

Deanna [00:21:14] Yes, I can hire employees. It’s, you know, the world is my oyster. When unfortunately, that’s usually not the case. Right? You’ve got bills to pay, you’ve got employees to pay, you’ve got invoices coming in and out. There’s so many other things that your money is tied to or allocated for that you don’t necessarily see when you look at one business bank account. Yeah. So when you can split it up into multiple, like five, and you’re separating it into, you know, all my deposits are coming into one, all my operating expenses are in one. I’ve got tax in one, payroll in one. Whatever the case may be, you’re just able to see your money more clearly and see what it’s actually allocated to. So you are narrowing it down into certain needs for the business. And you’re no longer thinking, you know, if I have a payroll account, I’m not thinking, hey, I’m going to go take all the payroll money out and go buy five new laptops, right? And obviously, you’re, you know, business owners are going to do what they’re going to do. But if this is like a nice way for you to set it up for yourself and just kind of spread it out, you’re going to get used to what you actually have there. That’s kind of where the Parkinson’s Law comes into it. I think the example that Mike uses is a tube of toothpaste. Right. If you’ve got a full tube of toothpaste, you’re going to, you know, overshoot the toothpaste every time. But if you have a minuscule amount left, you’re going to stretch it to make it work. And that’s kind of the idea between doing a first on Relay with all those accounts. 

Linzy [00:22:29] Totally. Yeah. And like I use that example from profit first when I teach profit first because I think so illustrative and I’m like, oh, I 100% do that. Like, yes, I’m the toothpaste queen. I’m like, I can, I can get by. This is enough. But another thing that it makes me think about is lifestyle creep, right? So like to to draw parallel, something that I talk with my students about is as you make more money, which therapists have the ability to do, right. We have this incredible ability to like, you know, build our profile, set our fees where we need them to be, get a full caseload, and you can make literally double the money that you were a year ago, right? Which is pretty incredible. But it’s so easy for that money to just like disappear because again, more money comes home. You’re like, I have more money. Like, let’s go out for sushi for the second time this week, right? Like it just disappears and rarely does it actually end up going to the places where it would have the best impact. And it’s the same thing in the business where it’s like as our businesses grow, especially if that money’s all in one pile, it just disappears, right? Like it just goes somewhere. Uh, you buy a nicer place or you do an extra, like, clinical training or whatever, but it doesn’t actually go necessarily places that it needs to go. And sometimes what actually ends up happening is folks earn a bunch more, pay themself that money, spend that money, and don’t realize like, oh, their taxes also went up because their income went up. And then suddenly they got this like $15,000 tax bill that they owe in addition to everything they’ve already paid and a system like profit first, the beautiful thing is, because it’s all relative, it actually takes care of that. If you make more, there’s just more tax money that goes aside. You don’t have to make that decision, but that’s taken care of for you. 

Deanna [00:24:01] Exactly. I cannot count the amount of business owners I’ve spoken to and they say, hey, I’m here checking out Relay for Profit first. And I, you know, usually ask, well, what got you interested in profit first? And the amount of times I’ve heard I got a huge tax bill last year and I don’t want to feel that again. It’s, you know, very similar to I couldn’t make payroll last week. Right. Like there is multiple people that that affects. And you feel that once you never want to go down that path again. No. 

Linzy [00:24:26] And that’s really funny because you just described the two different groups that I work with in my courses as solo practitioners and like that tax thing of like, I owe back taxes, and now I’m trying to save for this year’s taxes, but I’m paying off last year’s taxes and I’m like, not making my quarterlies for this year because I’m putting towards last year where you’re. 

Deanna [00:24:42] how do I catch up? 

Linzy [00:24:43] I’m not getting out of this hole, how do you catch up? So like I see that a lot with folks in solo practice. But yeah, group practice like that is that’s the nightmare, right? That you go to run payroll, you have like six people who are expecting a paycheck from you and you don’t have enough money. Like that is, that’s a real, like, come to Jesus moment where you have to accept like something is not working. 

Deanna [00:25:02] Yeah. It’s it’s terrifying. You know, I think that’s, the perfect. 

Linzy [00:25:08] 100%. 

Deanna [00:25:08] That unfortunately. But yes. And it’s more common than you think. Right. And I, I run group calls all the time with Relay. And we always say that is like, I’m sure you know, 50% or more people in this room right now have felt this feeling. And so you’re not alone out there, but it’s yeah, you’re one time and we’re good. 

Linzy [00:25:26] Yeah. Yeah. That that was enough. That was enough. Yes, yes. So Deanna, for folks who are interested in really curious about Relay, can you tell them more about where to find you, what you offer. 

Deanna [00:25:39] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So for anybody wanting to take a deeper look at Relay, you can head to our website at RelayFI.com. Um, and you can check out a ton of different customer testimonials, tons of information on profit. First, we actually run monthly webinars based on, uh, different brokers advisors in their specific industries and how you can start setting that up. But really, if you’re looking to join Relay, like what you get from that is up to 20 checking accounts. So if you want to go crazy, profit first, you absolutely can. But you know, we can connect directly to your accounting software, or you can send payments for free and you can collaborate with anybody in your business. So those people that start taking on staff and have a payroll to do, you know, you can actually invite those people to your bank account. You know, you can do a lot of shared responsibility here, which I think is really cool and what a lot of business owners need. Yeah. So that’s what I’d say you’re getting at a Relay other than, you know, your profit first and your automations and all that good stuff. But we also will be sharing a link, I believe, for your community, Linzy. So people can sign up directly. And yeah, you can get started. It takes you about ten minutes to sign up for banking, which is also something I always love to share. You can do it on the couch. You’ll need your your photo ID, your SSN, your EIN, of course, and some supporting documentation. But it’s over and done in ten minutes, which I’m sure not many people that are listening have had that experience with the bank account set up. So no, it’s something that we like to flag. 

Linzy [00:26:59] Yes. So there’s going to be a link in the show notes, which is our Money Nuts and Bolts link. So folks, I know that you came from hearing us on this podcast. Yeah. And that ten minute signup is a beautiful thing because like I will tell you, I went to set up a business bank account with a Canadian bank, and I went into the branch. They were like, yeah, no, we have to, you have to like, talk to this person. We’ll have him call you. He called me. It was like a bad day, like I was busy. I didn’t call him back. I haven’t heard from him since. And, like, it just didn’t happen. Like, I’m like, I feel like I’m, like, having, like, lined up a date with somebody, but I’m like, yeah, I don’t have time for this. 

Deanna [00:27:30] Yeah. I’m working. 

Linzy [00:27:31] There’s like, seriously? I’m like, I don’t need to play phone tag with somebody. So that piece that you have of just being able to like, sign up online, you don’t have to go jump through hoops. You don’t have to go to the bank. I think it’s going to relieve a lot of pain for a lot of people, because I know it’s a pain that I’m still experiencing, being in Canada and not having access to this kind of bank in Canada. 

Deanna [00:27:49] Yeah. And then something like that, you know, either discourages you from starting something like profit first or, you know, if you’re a new business owner, maybe forces you to co-mingle like business and personal finance, which we never want to do. But I know that happens a lot, especially as a sole proprietor. So, yeah, uh, you probably don’t believe that it can happen in ten minutes, but it certainly can. So. Yeah. Yeah. Go to the link and give it a shot. It’s pretty cool. 

Linzy [00:28:10]  Beautiful. Okay, so that link is going to be in the show notes that that’ll take you right over the spot. You can sign up in ten minutes and, uh, and try it. And this is the, the attitude that I always encourage for therapists about money is, again, we’re so used to the idea that, like, we have to do it right, we’re going to break it if we do it wrong, like right. You can dip into things, check them out, try them, and then decide if you like them or not. Right? Like being curious goes a long way. So I would say for folks like if you are experiencing what we’ve talked about on the podcast today of like friction at your bank, making it difficult, you want to have multiple accounts. You’re not getting the support. Try Relay and see what it’s like to go through the interface. And something that I’m hearing is you do have a lot of customer support too. I’ve guiding folks on how to use the tool. 

Deanna [00:28:57] Yeah. And I think as a virtual platform you have to show up with customer service. So that’s kind of our philosophy here. Our customer service department is our fastest growing team in Relay, because we’re growing. So our our customer support has to grow. And I totally agree with you Linzy. Like you can just try. Like there’s no minimum balance. It’s free to set up your account. It’s free to get started with Relay. So there’s there’s no cost to you if you if you just want to try it. So I highly recommend. 

Linzy [00:29:22]  Thank you so much. Um, my voice has left the podcast and now we’re going to finish the podcast too. Uh, it was wonderful to meet you today, Deanna. 

Deanna [00:29:31] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Linzy. It’s been awesome. 

Linzy [00:29:47] I really appreciated Deanna coming on the podcast today and something I just never expected. When I started Money Nuts and Bolts five six years ago now was that one day I would partner with a bank and want to tell you about them and how great they are. But I’m here because what I didn’t anticipate is that there are women who have come into the banking space and are doing things to make money easier and more intelligible and automated and clear for all of us. Um, and that is so, so, so important. So I’m really excited by what Relay is offering. If you are curious about them, use the link in the show notes so they know that you came from this conversation, and check them out and see if they will help make your relationship with your business finances easier. Because we want as much ease and flow around money as we can, so that you can put your energy towards the things that really matter to you in your life, and you can use your energy for your higher talents. Not having to do a bunch of manual back flipping or fight with your bank, or feel confused about your numbers because you can’t set up a system that is actually working for you. So appreciate Deanna coming on the podcast today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And I would also so appreciate if you’d be up for leaving a review on Apple Podcast, and you can share what your favorite episode was, what you are enjoying about the podcast. It’s a really, really helpful way for other folks to find the podcast and also benefit from these conversations. Thanks so much for listening today. 

Randall [00:00:01] And I think the trouble comes in when there is that communication breakdown. There’s nothing right or wrong. But if you’re open and have full, transparent understanding, what is the expectation of family support? Is there money coming in? Is there going to be a lot of money coming out? Just know that it’s going to happen because I think surprises, financially, is what hurt people the most. It starts financially, but it ends up other things behaviorally that people have to adjust to. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist and money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to season eight of The Money Skills with For Therapists podcast. Uh, kind of blows my mind that we are already at season eight. To be fair, our seasons have 12 episodes, so it’s a little bit arbitrary, but that tells me, you know, that we’ve been really going at this for a while now and I’m so excited to be getting into our next season of conversations about money for therapists. Today’s guest is Randall Avery. He is a certified financial planner, he’s fee-only. Folks who’ve listened before, you’ve heard me talk about the importance of a fee-only financial planner, which means that he’s not selling you anything. He’s just purely working in the service of your financial well-being. And he specializes in working with therapists. Specifically, he mentions on the podcast that he loves working with therapists in private practice and folks who are pre-retirement age as well. Uh, sweet spot sometimes of all three of those folks. So he’s really focused on therapists in his financial planning support that he gives folks. Today, Randall and I really dig into money in personal relationships, which is not something we’ve talked about a huge amount on this podcast so far. When we talk about money in romantic relationships, what to think about as you are choosing a partner or what is important to be communicating about if you’re already in a long-term relationship. Also, we talk about money and relationship with parents, with children, uh, money moving between generations and communication in these relationships. How to foster healthy financial relationships with your parents and children. We talk about how to teach children financial skills and model financial skills. Just so much here in terms of money and family and our daily lives, and what we can do to support our financial well-being and the financial well-being of the people we love and the people around us in daily life, as we’re managing money and having conversations with the people that we care about. Here’s my conversation with Randall Avery. So, Randall, welcome to the podcast. 

Randall [00:03:08] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:09] Yeah, I’m excited to have you here. For folks who are listening, who haven’t heard of you yet. I would love for you to tell people a little bit about like what you do and, you know, your focus on therapists, because you specifically serve therapists. 

Randall [00:03:24] That is correct. So I’m a certified financial planner. I’ve been doing this for about seven years, and I have kind of three different niches. So one is mental health professionals. The other one is pre-retirees. And the last one are small business owners. And sometimes a lot of those professionals overlap. So the perfect client for me would be somebody who’s a pre-retiree mental health professional who actually has a practice or a side practice. I really love working with them. One thing that I’ve noticed is they’re really bright. These individuals have went to school for multiple years. Some have doctorates. A lot of them have their masters, so they’re very competent people. But because they’ve been in school so long, they actually did not develop certain money skills. Um, and they’re slightly behind because they spent more years in school versus earning, like their counterparts who also went to college. So this is a unique population that I believe I can add value to, not only with just helping them with money, but also because I have a specialty and a niche that I can help them with different career opportunities that help them move them all in their career. Because a lot of professionals, they want to work with a certain population. But how do I get to that point? How can I service those clients the best way, where different companies in your area that you can help service those professions? 

Linzy [00:04:34] Right. Yeah. I think that’s such an excellent point about education because this is what I noticed too, you know, working with therapists, as you say, like most of them have at least a master’s to be able to do what they do, probably a PhD. And what that kind of extensive, expensive, long-term education does is it really helps you scale up in a certain way, but it keeps you out of the workforce for kind of like what might be some key earning years. And I think it also helps you be like really smart at certain things, but then you’re really not taught other things. So like, folks come out of school really like being able to do great therapy, right? They can do up a great genogram or, you know, whatever modality, but they’ve really not learned many stuff, and they’re used to being really smart and being good at things. And so not only have they not been taught this, but that’s a great point that you make like they’re behind because they’ve been not working and also accumulating a ton of debt in that not working. 

Randall [00:05:31] And I think most professionals fall into that trap. As far as once you turn 28, it’s hard to develop a new skill and perfect it because you’ve been so good in other skills. So things like, you know, fixing a car if you did not grow up doing things like that, doing things around your home, maybe you outsource those type of services. And that’s kind of where I fit in. Clients come to me, you know, they want to be successful financially and I help them out throughout that process. 

Linzy [00:05:55] Mhm. So I’m curious what made you want to serve us, like the therapist who types of the world. What drew you into this niche. And especially like therapists and private practice and like pre-retirees. What calls to you about working with these people? 

Randall [00:06:09] Well I kind of fell into that niche. I kind of was working with clients and I gained a client that was a therapist. And she kind of explained her career, what she’s going through, income opportunities, and I learned more about that profession. And now, a little bit about myself, I’m from the South, and there’s always a slight stigma when it comes to mental health in the South. So I was not exposed to that profession. So hearing her story, how she helps clients, it kind of motivated me to learn a little bit more. And then I learn like there’s different layers. There’s a social worker, there’s a counselor, there’s a psychologist, there’s a psychiatrist, and all these different levels. And not only that, it’s the work you guys do that I think goes unnoticed. A lot of the work you all do is not plastered over the news, but it’s it’s what people deal with on a day-in and day-out basis. And also I’ve noticed that therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist, they spend a lot of their time listening. So now they have the opportunity to actually talk. And me being able to allow them to talk and actually listen to them. I kind of found them to be a really great client for me. 

Linzy [00:07:10] Mhm. Yeah. I think that is so true of therapists. Like we tend to spend so much time listening. It’s invisible work because it’s work that also happens like behind closed doors. Right. Like it’s not going to be headline news when somebody has an incredible therapy session because there’s confidentiality and it’s a very private kind of profession. Right. Other people don’t witness the brilliance of therapists. And that’s actually like an interesting piece that I haven’t totally thought about is, like, so many therapists doubt that they’re good at what they do. You know, they have like imposter syndrome. And even though they can think like, well, this client was really successful, that client was really successful. Sometimes they’re like, well, but that person was doing their own work. It wasn’t me, it was them. They would have done it anyways. Or like, well, maybe they were successful, but maybe they were just telling me that, like, we come up with stories because we never get to have somebody else to watch what we do and be like, you’re really good at that. You really. That was really brilliant how you did that. Like, we don’t get witnessed in our work, which is different than some other professions where, you know, you have a boss who’s watching what you do, or you work with a team and people are able to reflect back to you. Your gifts. It’s kind of like a therapist. Like we have to somehow accept that we’re good at what we do without necessarily being able to get that feedback from other people directly. 

Randall [00:08:16] That is correct, because it’s almost you prevent something bad happened. But if something bad doesn’t happen, society just goes on. So I love the work that they all do and anything I can do to help moving forward, I think helpful. And one thing that I also do, I talk to a post-doc programs. So that’s a program where before they become a licensed professional, a lot of students participate in a postdoc program. And me being able to talk to those students, I kind of like say, I’m like the Ghost of Christmas Future. As far as being able to tell them, look out for this, because a lot of my clients say, I wish I would have known this. So I can get them on a head start early on in their career. I think it’s been really valuable and the feedback has been amazing. 

Linzy [00:08:54] Yeah, great. So something that I would love to get into with you is, you know, you work more on the personal side of money. You know, what I do with folks is on the business private practice side of money. I get into like, money stories with people and like, why do we have these certain beliefs or behaviors in service of our business? But you’re really working with people around their personal finances and something that I get asked or about, and that gets brought to me sometimes with my students, is conflicts or complexity with their spouse or partner around money. So I’m curious, like, what have you noticed about money in romantic relationships, like personal relationships? 

Randall [00:09:36] So for therapists, the dynamic is different. So let’s start from the beginning. So they have began romantic relationships sometimes later in life. So they’ve gained their masters, again, their doctorate. So they’re starting around 26/27 years of age. There’s also another counterbalance of societal pressures and societal expectation of when things should happen. So when they go into relationships, they’re almost in an accelerated situation when they think about their romantic relationships. Also, people need to realize who they choose as a partner has significant impact on your financial well-being in this day and age. A dual income household is almost a necessity when we talk about raising an entire family and making sure you’re able to do the things that are necessary, so making sure that you’re choosing the partner that aligns with you personally, but also financially, is important. 

Linzy [00:10:27] I feel like you’re telling my personal story. If I just think about my own, you know, dating life because, yeah, it’s like I finished my master’s. I was already practicing. I was already in my field. I was already doing what I loved. And then I met my partner when I was 29. So then it’s like, okay, we got to go. Like, if we want to have kids and like, have a house and all these things, like we kind of had this accelerated start to our relationship because we didn’t have a lot of time to get to know each other over ten years. Right. It’s like time was a-ticking. But, you know, I think what you bring up is a really an important point, but probably something that’s kind of like hard for folks to hear that, you know, the partner you choose is a huge impact on your financial health, right? Like there’s that financial component. Do you ever notice that people don’t want to think about that? Or like it’s like love should triumph this? Like, what do you say to people who are just like, but it’s not as important as having the right partner or. Yeah, how do we think about that? 

Randall [00:11:21] So I think it’s more about values, which kind of lives with when you decide on a partner. So the value of paying bills on time, the value of, you know, keeping the lights on. The value of holding a job and the values of work ethic. Those things aren’t romantic. But when we talk about sustaining a relationship over time, those are what keep people together and makes you think, well, maybe I should stick this out because there’s going to be ups and downs in relationships. Nothing’s going to be steady. And having somebody that says we have the similar values, we have similar hopes and dreams and aspirations. That’s what I work with clients on a lot. Let’s not talk about the differences. Let’s focus on what we have in common and put money in financing those things. And I think a lot of time when people come together. I think the number one thing is just be transparent. Know your person’s credit score before you move in with them. Know how much they make. Know their occupation, know their past work history. Actually ask for their resume by chance. Those little things where we may laugh that we think are funny, I think will kind of help people forward when they think about their financial future with their partner. 

Linzy [00:12:28] Yeah, because when you’re building a long-term relationship – and this is something that I notice was a difference for me too. The difference between dating in my late 20s and being like, this is my person. Like I’m choosing my person versus like, dating in my early 20s is where the mistakes were made – let’s just say that, right – is you are thinking about somebody that you want to build something with, right? And whatever that is, whether you’re planning to have kids or not, whether you want to have a life where you can travel the world together, right, or not, like you are coming into what almost is almost like a business partnership. I say that – it’s an extremely unromantic thing to say, but you know, this is your person who you’re going to be building your world with, right? And so what I’m hearing from you is like these pieces, they’re often pieces that we don’t ask about and we don’t talk about. And, you know, I was laughing a little bit when you’re saying, like, ask for the resume because it’s just like it’s so contrary to kind of our narratives around like, romance and like, well, but who are they inside? And but that’s actually going to show you like, who is this person, you know, and what is their behaviors. And are you on the same page? And can they give you what you need for the life that you want to build? Because we’re talking about building something that’s like for decades, you know, as you say, where there will be highs and lows, you’re looking at long-term compatibility. 

Randall [00:13:38] And they say a lot of times that opposites attract. But that’s not necessarily true. You may have different things like love language. I like physical touch, I like attention. But when we talk about relationships that make the long haul, they’re usually people that have the same value system, sometimes share the same level of face, um, different things that make them actually more similar than not. So when you’re looking for a partner, take away the esthetics aspects, look at their values and what they believe in, even their family, which I think we’re going to talk about a little bit. 

Linzy [00:14:08] Yeah, absolutely. I will share that, you know, when I met my own partner, who’s now my spouse and my co-parent and all those kinds of things, I made a really deliberate decision to choose those things, right, over, like kind of my, my patterns. And the therapists listening will also know, over my trauma, you know, and what was familiar and comfortable. Like I made a very different decision, and I chose someone who really is like a project partner. Like we like to get things done together. We like to make cool things happen in the world. And that has made for a really satisfying partnership, right? Because we both have that drive. So like we built a backyard cottage that we rent out. We did that two summers ago. That’s a big project, right? Like if I was married to somebody who was like, well, it’s not important to me, I’d rather not, then I wouldn’t be able to create that thing in the world, right? Like there’s so much potential in partnerships to, like, make a life amazing. And there’s also so much opportunity to not have the life that you really want because you’re with somebody who’s just doesn’t want what you want and is not on board. And I think that it’s it’s not what we’re taught to think of when we think long-term. But certainly my own experience has been like, it’s the way to go. Choose the person that you want to build something with, and you want to build the same kinds of things, and you have those values in common, even if you don’t listen to the same music, which was one of my things when we first got together, because, you know, I was like an artsy kid who, like, was used to bonding over people over these certain things. That’s not actually what makes for, you know, a meaningful, functional, long-term relationship. 

Randall [00:15:33] That’s true. You know, we think of the here and now, but think about what would you value in a partner when they’re 60? Um, that’s the things you should think about. You know, what they believe, what they hope, and what they aspire to. The here and now. It is enticing. The esthetics, the looks, the flash, and even the status. But when you’re 60, a lot of that stuff does not matter. Can I laugh with the person? Am I worried about a gambling habit, an addiction habit? These things that are real and I hope people consider these things when I think of a life partner. 

Linzy [00:16:03] Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, for folks listening, like a lot of folks may already be partnered, but I think it also speaks to just like these things are important in relationships, like we’re allowed to want to be with somebody who will support our dreams, who gives us that stability, who, you know, like, you know, as you say, like you can laugh with and those kinds of things as well. But, you know, sometimes when I think about business and money, you know, I think about, like, if this is your one and only human life, like, is this how you want to spend it? And the person that you choose is going to have a huge impact on what your life looks like, right? And you’re allowed to ask for what you actually want, somebody that you can build what you actually want with. Yeah, I think that’s a powerful thing. And I’m sure a lot of folks who are listening, like we tend to be more of those like people pleasers, like self-sacrificing and those kinds of things. But what I’m hearing from you is like finding that person who’s compatible in those important ways is really powerful, both emotionally but also financially. 

Randall [00:17:02] And one last thing I would like to add on to that. There will come a period where your partner’s not working, not bringing steady income. And I think a lot of people don’t consider that even though that person is the breadwinner, they may not want to work that job anymore. Family dynamics change. So really think about everything holistically. As far as you know, if that person wasn’t working, do I still like them? If they didn’t have that title, do I still like them? If we didn’t drive this car and go on those vacations, is that somebody I want to spend the rest of my life with? And I think those answers help. 

Linzy [00:17:35] Absolutely. Yeah. And that has been my own experience. You know, part of me building this business actually was my partner going through a period where he was changing careers and didn’t know what he was doing and wasn’t working, and I was no longer the secondary, like, bonus money earner. It’s like it’s on you. And. Yeah, no, these are these are great questions to ask. So you alluded earlier to the importance of like parent and child relationships. So I’m curious from like your perspective as a financial planner, how should we also be thinking about our relationship with our parents and our children as we’re thinking about our financial well-being? 

Randall [00:18:08] So I have a, I guess, a spectrum. So I have clients that are in their late 30s and have clients in their 70s. So I get to see both sides. I see the parent and the child. And one thing from the parent aspect, I’m working with them, they have saved up enough, they’re successful, and the question is, what am I going to do with this money? Okay. And they would love naturally, the parent would love to give money to their child to make their child’s life a little bit better. But there’s either a relationship issue or there’s behaviors that make giving that child more money that much more at risk. Okay. And now from the child aspect, maybe the parent has done something that I don’t like, maybe that they don’t agree with my career choice or my spouse choice. So there’s that cut off in relationship. And last but not least, we do have a situation where kids are sometimes expected to take care of their parents financially. So really thinking about the generational dynamic, even when we talk about romantic relationships, your ex-spouse, hey, what is the family support that you believe you should have for your family? I think those questions are important, but also maintaining relationships throughout the generation I think could allow for a lot of different planning opportunities, especially wealth transfers. 

Linzy [00:19:24] Right? Yeah, because those parent-child relationships end up forming a lot of our financial picture as well. Yeah. The relationship that you have with parents, the expectations that they have for you to take care of them. Or the expectation that you might have for them to take care of you. If you’re that that generation down. And I have noticed different families have very different expectations and norms around how money moves between generations. 

Randall [00:19:49] That is correct. So I have clients where their parents will give them $10,000 every year. Be nice for that situation. I have clients where parents are going to hold on to their multiple million dollar portfolio until the very end and try to control it, even going as far as putting into a trust. And I also have clients whose parents have not saved anything, and they sweat every day with a health scare going to cause them to have to move in. And I’m going to have to take care of them. So the parents, how you think about your parents, how you think about your kids, does matter. And I say the number one thing is make sure you keep an open relationship. If there isn’t anything that’s going to be traumatic or cause you undue harm, try to keep the relationship going, keep the conversations going, visit, have opening communication, and even bring up money. When I say if a client comes to me and their parents help them put a down payment of their home, that is an amazing financial benefit for them. If I say the client comes to me and say, hey, I’m going to fund my grandkids 529 plan, which is a type of plan that helps fund education. These things help move the needle. Even last thing I want to add is if a grandparent wants to help their kid with education in primary school, making sure they go to a private school versus the local school, these things matter. When we talk about intergenerational benefit and transferring wealth. It’s not just money, but sometimes it’s experiences we have to think about. 

Linzy [00:21:13] Yeah, because it makes me think, too, about how we’re all part of like an ecosystem of relationships, right? And like when you can keep those relationships open and healthy and there’s that communication there to understand what’s happening. There’s also more openness for energy transfer, I’ll put it that way, which can include like money and support and those things because there’s a recognition of like, okay, I have this thing and I could share it with them and that would make a huge difference to their life, because now I understand that they’re struggling in XYZ way, or that there’s this amazing opportunity that they can’t take on their own, but that I could help them with. And I’m able to know that because we have that openness of relationship. And I think that that’s so, so important because something I think about too, is I think about my own family is also knowing what’s happening with my family’s financial situation. And I’m in a situation where my side of the family has real family value around transferring wealth from higher generations to the generations below. Kind of ongoingly in really practical ways, right. Which has been like an incredible gift to receive. And I think it’s like, you know, part of that is, is there is money to be there, but also a big part of it, just that value of like, you know, my aunt saving money for my brother and my cousin and I, we’re just a small little family, for decades before gifting it to us, when we reached a certain point in our life when she thought it would be most useful to us, which is an incredible gift to give, right? And like for me, having received the benefit of somebody being so thoughtful about money in a long-term way, I will be doing the same thing for younger generations like my own child, but also the cousins in the family. If I see financial need, I will be thinking about what a difference those you know money made to me at key times, like when I started school or when I needed money for a down payment, or when I had student loans to pay off. Right. Like there’s these key times in your life where money showing up is so advantageous, and it’s been an incredible gift to have somebody in a higher generation recognizing and thinking about that. Where the other side of my family, my partner, his parents were immigrants and they lost money. Right? Like whenever you immigrate, almost invariably money is lost, right? And status is lost and professionalism is lost. And you kind of start over in a new place. So when I think about our finances, I’m almost thinking of this flow from like my family that’s been in Canada for, I don’t know, 150 years or something insane. And like the stability that they’ve been able to build, that flowing through us and then flowing to my in-laws, you know, over time as, as they’re retiring and as they need more support or more stability. And this backyard cottage that we built like that is all this like ecosystem that we get to be part of that. Thankfully, I’m aware of what money is where, because we have enough communication to know that that’s the case. 

Randall [00:23:53] And I think the trouble comes in when there is that communication breakdown. So there’s nothing right or wrong. I have done this long enough to know there’s many different ways to get the job done, but if you’re open and have full, transparent understanding, that’s why when we spoke of beforehand, what is the expectation of family support? Is there money coming in? Is there going to be a lot of money coming out? And there’s nothing right or wrong. Just know that it’s going to happen because I think surprises financially is what hurt people the most. It’s, I didn’t expect that, I had this idea for my life. You’re telling me we have to go this direction and that places a strain and it starts financially, but it ends up other things behaviorally that people have to adjust to. 

Linzy [00:24:38] Mhm. Yeah. And what I’m hearing in all of this, and what can be so challenging about money is we have to start conversations about this, right, with the people in our family. And we have to ask questions. And you know, I know that my partner has had a conversation with his mom every few years of just like, how are things going financially? You know, like, what are your plans? You know, like what’s happening in the will, you know, like those kinds of conversations. And for us, part of what we’re also gauging is like, okay, is she good or is it time for us to start supporting in certain ways. Right. But it’s like that can be a difficult conversation for people to bridge, because we’re so unused to talking about money transparently. 

Randall [00:25:14] And I think and I love the fact that they’re introducing financial literacy in grade school so people, kids, can get a head start. But I tell everybody, financial literacy starts at the dinner table. It’s the conversations that you have, the experiences like you have described that you have where how funds flow between different generations. Understanding that and the impact of that is important. So if you are a parent and you want to transfer money down, it’s going to be sometimes hard for you to transfer that money out because somebody has to start it off so the kids can understand what to do when they have kids. So understand it’s going to be painful at first and people are going to have different behaviors. And I tell folks all the time, start off with a small amount. Let’s say your goal is to pass down $300,000, start with $10,000 so that they can learn, mess up, so they don’t become depressed because they wasted 100,000. And then once they mature, knowing that there’s going to be growing pains, I think that’s important. And it’s also with the spouse who has poor spending habits. Start off small. Go on that journey with them. So hopefully when you’re 60, you guys have a mature, um, kind of outlook on how to manage money. 

Linzy [00:26:25] Mhm. Yeah. And I think that’s so normalizing that skill building takes time. And there’s a book that I read a year or two ago called The Soul of Money. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but she tells this story in this book that resonated so deeply with me about how her own mother’s relationship with money, and her mom didn’t really have a lot of money in her life, but like, really taught them skills about how to be really mindful about money, spend money in really meaningful ways, and how one of the most valuable things we can pass on to our children, even more valuable than giving them $100,000, is teaching them skills. Because skills they always carry with them, right? And skills can’t be stolen from them. Right. And so it’s just like that skilling up our kids and as you say, like that starts at the dinner table, right? That starts by letting mistakes be made. That starts by like creating space for reflection and transparency of like, hey, you know, like I’m thinking about my own relationship to being a parent, of being able to even say like, yeah, this is a mistake that we made, right? Or like, this is why we do it this way. Right? And this is, uh, why this is important to us, or this is why we put our money these places, like having these transparent conversations, because they’re not skills that we’re born with. It’s not in the water. Right? Like we don’t just learn it on our own and we need to be taught it. But I think, you know, what you’re bringing up is such a great point. Like I hear so often, this narrative, and I think it’s an especially American narrative, I will say as well, from my like, Canadian perspective of being one step on the outside is this dream of being able to pass down a huge amount of wealth to children, and that being this aspiration that so many of us, you know, have is I just want to leave my kids with, like, I don’t want them to have to struggle like I did. You know what? I want them to be secure. And I want to leave my kids as much money as I possibly can. I’m curious about your perspective about, like, that kind of goal and like, how does, yeah, how do you see that play out or how do you think about that in relation to skills? 

Randall [00:28:14] So, you know, a lot of people say let’s start from a step back. So a lot of people say, hey, you know, I want to be wealthy. And they say, Randall, how can I become wealthy? And the hard answer and but the truth and honest answer is be creative enough and something that somebody else values in exchange. So a lot of people don’t start off with that exchange of value. I’m giving value to society. So therefore it comes back to me in the form of income and wealth. Okay. And now that I have accumulated this amount of wealth, how do I pass it on to the next generation? I believe it has to be strategic and it has to begin early, like I said, at the dinner table. So be strategic. Sometimes it’s buying a house in a neighborhood where the neighborhood is affiliated with kids that have the same amount of financial well-being, also, in a neighborhood that goes to a school which is going to provide enrichment for the child. So starting off early and really showing them, hey, this is what the benefit of having money does, also show the other side of the tracks, do volunteer events to say, hey, now these people have to have run out on their luck. This is a potentially things that can happen. So you’re not fostering a situation as far as spoiling them. And then the next thing as far as when they go along, education, you know, help subsidize the education. Now I would like to say that each child is going to be different. So some kids, you can say, hey, I’m going to take care of education, no worries. Whereas there are other kids where you have to say no, you’re going to take out student loans, because I don’t think you’re valuing education in the way that you need to do. So there’s going to be some customization when it comes to transferring wealth and also what you spend for your child. I believe- and I’m about to embark on this thought process – is, you know, they say die with zero, meaning that they’re not going to wait until you pass away to receive a large balloon inheritance. I believe, like I had mentioned, you strategically place things in their life as they go along their lives that make their lives easier. But you’re also, on the other hand, teaching them a lesson similar to volunteering, similar to moving to certain neighborhoods, similar to showing them different experiences. It’s all a lesson of values that you’re passing down to your kids, and it has something to do with money, but it’s actually more about those other things, those other life skills that I think are important. 

Linzy [00:30:31] Um, I think that’s really powerful and like something that I’m really appreciating. This is just thinking and being intentional about educating your kids about money in small ways all the time. Because something that I know, like a lot of folks that I work with in Money Skills For Therapists is they know that they didn’t like what was modeled to them, like it didn’t work right. So they inherited these negative money stories, this baggage, or these confusing stories where one parent seems to have endless money and they’re always like splurging. But the other parent says they have no money. And do they have money? Do they not have money? And kids, they absorb all of that, right? Like they’re sponges. And we carry these stories into adulthood and we apply them to our own life, even if they don’t apply at all. Right. So it’s like as a parent, you have the opportunity to really consciously teach, right, and customize and think about where your child’s strengths, where do they need to learn, right and really and really teach them in a thoughtful way about how to manage money. And I think that’s really empowering for folks to think about is like, even if your kid is 15, it’s not too late to start consciously teaching them how to manage money and to give them experiences that are going to let them learn how to manage money and how to think about money. 

Randall [00:31:43] Yeah, and the last thing I’ll leave, just as a thought for parents, is skill discovery is not the school’s responsibility. I believe what your child is good at, nurturing that skill and honing it in, should be part of the parents rearing up a child. Because what I say a lot of times is. Kids are going off to college without any passion. Um, they’re just going because that’s what they’ve been prescribed to do. But if they have been nurturing a skill or talent from grades one through 12, once they go to college or university, they’ll be able to kind of embrace that experience. And I’ve seen folks go through 25, 27 not loving what they do, but making good money. And that results in bad spending habits, which you’ve probably observed in people you work with. 

Linzy [00:32:29] Sure. Yeah. Because having actual passion, doing things that are meaningful, like feeling a sense of efficacy, tends to make us actually better at money because we are enjoying life. We’re not trying to make up for doing work that drains us all the time. And that’s really what, you know, over these past years of doing this work. That’s something that I’ve noticed, Randall, and I wonder if you see that in your folks too, is like, it’s about money and it’s about math, but more so it’s about meaning and values and like creating a life that you actually enjoy. Right. And these two things go hand in hand. But like one is not a replacement for the other. Making a bunch of money doesn’t actually give you meaning or satisfaction or let you live a values-aligned life. Like that’s work that you have to do separately. 

Randall [00:33:13] And I don’t market this to clients specifically. My goal is to give them the financial security and flexibility to do what they really want to do. Some clients that come to me around 35 years old and they don’t really know exactly what they want or how they want to achieve what they want to do, but they don’t take the risk because they’re not in a financial situation to do so. So if if I give them financial flexibility, you’ll naturally see their eyes open up and they take the necessary risk in their lives to be happy.  

Linzy [00:33:42] That’s so true. And I’ve seen the same thing with my Money Skills for Therapists students is once they have money working for them and they have enough of a foundation, suddenly there’s this other cool idea for this thing they’ve always wanted to do that they have the bandwidth to do, because now they have the financial stability to do it, right. And, you know, it makes me think about – my mom was an accountant. She was a cost accountant in a large company for 25 or 30 years. And then she was fired when she was 50. She had a boss that they did not get along, and he managed to get her cut out of the company. And I remember her calling me to give me the news. And I was so nervous for her, and she was like, now I get to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. And she ended up doing completely different work, like she ended up in community development and food security and like building these beautiful partnerships to give people like totally shame-free, equitable access to food, which had nothing to do with what she was doing before. But it was only because she had that financial. First of all, she was forced. Secondly, she had the golden parachute to let her think about what she actually wanted to do with her career. 

Randall [00:34:44] And I also think that, uh, a lot of people don’t realize you can have more than one career. I know therapists and counselors. They go through so many years of schools, so sometimes they feel trapped in that profession. But you can pivot. You can. I think what you’re doing is a great example of somebody who’s taking the skill set and they’re, you know, up rearing and then pivoting into something else. It’s okay to have more than one career in your life. 

Linzy [00:35:10] Absolutely. And I think it’s helpful for their boss to hear that because I know myself, like that therapist identity. You work so hard for it. And often you’ve been a caregiver your whole life, so you’re always kind of a therapist even before you were a therapist. And it can be hard sometimes to imagine who you would be if you weren’t primarily a therapist. But therapists are very talented, smart people. They’ve got a lot of a lot of different careers inside of them. Well, thank you so much, Randall. For folks who want to get further into your world, where can they find you? Follow you? Do you have freebies for them? Tell us about you. 

Randall [00:35:47] Sure. So the best way to get my contact and really connect with this on my website is going to be www.RSADEASIL.com. So that’s www.RSADEASIL.com. I’m on all social media platforms or most of them Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Just follow my content. I try to post on a regular basis. You can see how I’m thinking. I also host a YouTube channel called Building Wealth and Mental Health. So this is where I actually interview successful practitioners and see what they’re doing and how they’re doing it, because I think there is a slight veil in between mental health professionals or what’s going on, how I can make money. And my goal is to kind of remove that veil so they can really do what they want to. 

Linzy [00:36:27] Yeah. And you had me on your series. That’s how we met. So yeah, check out that series from Randall, and we’ll put all of your links in the show notes so folks can easily get over and follow you. Thank you so much, Randall. This has been a really interesting conversation. Thanks for being on the podcast today. 

Randall [00:36:41] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:36:56] I really appreciated the thoughts that Randall brought forward in this conversation about the importance of communication. You know, with your partner thinking about, um, your financial values. Do you mean credit cards are paid off on time? What do you want your life to look like? But also that communication with kids and parents. I think we are used to maybe starting to think about how are we going to model money to our kids. What do we want our kids to learn? But as you mentioned, like having those transparent conversations also with a generation above, with parents, is also really important because that’s also often part of your financial well-being, right? Like if a parent doesn’t actually have the money to cover their retirement, it’s really important for you to know that, you know, as you’re making your own financial plans and not have that be a surprise. And it gives you an opportunity to communicate openly with that parent about expectations and what’s possible and what they can take care of, and what you can do within a boundaried healthy relationship. On a call in Money Skills for Therapists this week I was talking with some students about therapists and money, and about how therapists having money, I think is good for the world, because we tend to be the people who do think about the well-being of our parents and our siblings and obviously our children. And when therapists and health practitioners and helpers and healers, when we have money, we tend to think about how that money can improve not just our life, but the lives around us. And I think we tend to use money that way, before we start to spend on luxury items and things that other types of people might spend on very quickly. And it’s really powerful when therapists have money, because we do tend to be thoughtful, that we can use that money to take care of our ecosystem, whatever that looks like for you. Right. But part of that is really being clear of what is happening with money in different parts of your ecosystem, having those conversations about money with your family and also being clear on your own financial needs and your own boundaries so that you can give help to, you know, the next generation down or the next generation up without affecting your own financial well-being and putting your own financial stability in peril. Right. So having that clarity about your own needs as well in that mix, lots to think about in terms of family and money. If you want to follow me, you can find me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts, and we’ll be back next week with our second episode in season eight. Thanks for listening today. 

Amanda [00:00:02] I feel more clear, like I just feel more organized about what the numbers actually are and what my course of action can be following our conversation. I’m also feeling a sense of gratitude for you and the way that you can actually take things that are a total mess, that are happening for someone else, and somehow just be like, Oh yeah, this makes total sense. Let’s just do it this way. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So this is our season closer for season seven of the podcast, which is a very strange thing to be able to say. But time is really flying. And this episode is our only coaching episode that we’ve actually had this season so far. And it’s with Amanda Starfield. Amanda is a very recent graduate of Money Skills for Therapists. She is a clinical social worker, therapist, supervisor, and director. And she lists her specialty as specializing in being human with other humans, which I love very much. She’s based in Massachusetts and works with youth and families. And in addition to doing individual and family therapy, she also provides consultation on everything from therapy to supervision to leadership dilemmas. Amanda is a lovely human. She was like a such a treat to have in Money Skills for Therapists. And in our conversation today, we get into creating simplicity when you are in a complicated transition. So Amanda has recently switched her private practice to S Corp tax status in the United States. So now her money has to flow differently. So she was using a profit first system before, which is a budgeting system for business where you use multiple bank accounts and you divvy out money on percentages. And she had a system that was working for her. But now with her new S Corp status, the way that taxes work has changed. There’s some reimbursements she has to be giving herself. And there’s just some complexity that’s been thrown into the mix that has taken something that used to be simple and makes sense and has made it confusing again. So in this conversation today with Amanda, we dig into her numbers and we look at how to take something that is complicated, how to take her numbers and to make them clear and simple so that they work for her brain and give her the clarity to know how much to pay herself in dividends, how much to set aside for those dividend taxes, how much she needs to be putting towards her payroll, just getting her tweaking her big picture again to get numbers working in this new incarnation of her private practice. So if you are considering switching to S Corp status or recently have switched to S Corp status or have/are going through any kind of other transitions in your practice or feeling like your numbers are complicated, this coaching session is going to walk through that process of taking something that could be super complicated and making it simple and clear. Here is my conversation with Amanda Starfield. So Amanda, welcome to the podcast. 

Amanda [00:03:35] Thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:36] I am so excited to have you. So, Amanda, you finished up Money Skills for Therapists in the Community in October. 

Amanda [00:03:44] A month ago. 

Linzy [00:03:45] Okay. Yeah, so a month ago. And I’m curious before we like dig into your coaching piece today, what made you decide to join Money Skills for Therapists? 

Amanda [00:03:54] So I run a fully private pay practice, and I started that about two years ago now. And I did Tiffany McLean’s program, Lean In Make Bank, which really helped me start to unpack my money stories and really kind of understand what was going on for me and really deep in my clinical work as well. But I didn’t really have a handle on how I was actually managing the money that I was making. And I knew that there was more there for me and that I wanted to feel confident moving forward. And I really have this base as I was building my business of I actually know what I’m doing in terms of managing all this money. 

Linzy [00:04:33] Right. Yeah. So the how. It’s like you figured out how to make more money, but then it was like, how do you manage the money that you made or were making? Yes. Okay. And today, I feel like we’re going to dig into a topic that I think is going to show just like how deep you’ve gone into the money management world. Because I know you have some questions about profit first and S Corp. So tell me, what question are you bringing to our conversation today? 

Amanda [00:04:58] So I’m in this transitional period, which is a little bit confusing. So I went through your program. I was like, okay, totally understand profit first. I got these percentages down and then it was like, Well, I’m actually making enough to transition my business to becoming an S Corp, which now means that there’s different tax rates for different buckets of things, and there’s a different flow of how the money is moving. And I’m adjusting at the end of the year, but it’s actually going back to the beginning of the year, right? 

Linzy [00:05:28] Yes. 

Amanda [00:05:28] I’ve actually already saved plenty for my taxes for this year. 

Linzy [00:05:33] Yes. 

Amanda [00:05:33] So where I’m sort of putting my money, where and how I’m allocating it when it’s coming in isn’t going to be my ongoing system necessarily. And I’m very confused about what I actually am paying myself. 

Linzy [00:05:47] Right? Yeah. So you’re in a transition period right now because what I’m hearing is by transitioning to an S Corp, you now have some kind of like catching up or applying retroactively to do to the new way things work to understand that correctly. 

Amanda [00:06:00] Exactly. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:00] Okay. And that’s what your accountant has guided you to do. Is these things go back to the beginning of this year. 

Amanda [00:06:06] Yes. 

Linzy [00:06:07] Okay. Okay. What I’m hearing is you’re going to need two sets of numbers. Right. We’re going to need to think about what are the numbers kind of between now and the end of this year to make up for the fact that you’ve already saved more than enough for taxes based on the math that you’ve done. But then also next year, you’re going to need a different set of numbers that are like your new normal. Does that make sense? 

Amanda [00:06:28] Yes, absolutely. 

Linzy [00:06:29] Yes. Okay. Okay. So let’s talk about first the right now. So let’s get into profit first. And for folks listening just to contextualize, if they’re not familiar. So Profit First is a budgeting system that you’ve taken on in your business that helps you allocate money kind of the same way every time to help money go where you need it to be. And now that you’ve changed your tax status, your numbers need to change because part of being an S corp is that you are going to be taxed differently. It’s a bit more complicated, but you are ultimately going to be paying less taxes. So can you share your spreadsheet with me? And we’re going to describe the spreadsheet for people listening as much as possible to have the visual. 

Amanda [00:07:07] Certainly can. 

Linzy [00:07:08] Okay. So now we’re looking together at your Profit first calculator, which you have gotten from the course, and now you’ve added some more pieces based on your S Corp stuff. So tell me what’s happening with these numbers so far. Like what is solid, what is working, and what is not clear? 

Amanda [00:07:23] So the top number in income, that’s the past two weeks. So that was what I just allocated for my paycheck that I’m going to be getting tomorrow. Okay. What’s working is the salary and the operating expenses. What’s really not clear to me is that my tax percentage. The profit percentage, it’s really coming through the distributions, which is this other box a little bit lower. So I’ve basically sort of found that number by doing that, working backwards. 

Linzy [00:07:56] Okay. Yeah. And the number at the bottom here, I’m just seeing here you have like a distribution number of 797.73 that you’re playing with. Can you just click on that so I can see where that’s pointing to? Okay. I see. Yes. So it’s taking your salary and taxes and then your owner’s distribution. I’m just seeing how you have set this up here. So your salary in taxes together is 72%. That combines the 52% that you had for your salary was 52%, Taxes were 16%. So at 72, that’s great. And then I see you have it divvied up so that salary is broken into payroll and owners distribution. Tell me about these numbers here. 

Amanda [00:08:33] The payroll is what exactly what it sounds like. So that is the amount that’s going to be taxed sort of at the highest rate. So my payroll gets taxed at about 20 to 30%. So I have 30% in this spreadsheet right now. It is a little bit short for this month, so I actually had to shuffle. So this 442 in payroll tax, I actually is more like 475. So that’s one thing that’s not quite matching. And that’s because the actual just dollar amounts are lower. 

Linzy [00:09:03] Yes. Okay. 

Amanda [00:09:05] The distribution, it’s is it distribution is essentially like profit. It’s taxed at a lower rate. So these are sort of like the owner distributions. And the way that I’ve thought about the distributions in terms of the profit first model is to think, okay, there’s sort of like a quarterly profit or distribution that I’m thinking about, and then there’s like a monthly, you know, is there anything additional, is there anything sort of bonus, as you know, as the shareholder of my own company, that that would make sense to bounce back? So that’s sort of how my brain has wrapped itself around combining this and the profit first model together. It’s just that the profit is coming further down the line of how the money is flowing instead of right at the top being siphoned off. 

Linzy [00:09:51] Yes. And this is what I’m seeing is like before we started recording, you pulled out like your whiteboard that had like, here’s the numbers your percentage. And then there was like a sub-level where things are broken into further percentages and then a sub-level below that. And I made a joke that it’s like a like a Beautiful Mind kind of equation looking. And that’s what I’m seeing here is it’s like you’re what I see is you’re really working to try to be really precise and like, really like kind of get it right. But it does add a lot of levels, like literal layers to the numbers, right? There’s like layers on layers here right now as you’re trying to figure out how to set this up. So what I would love to help you think through is how to flatten this back into one layer.  

Amanda [00:10:33] Oh, that would be beautiful. Please. 

Linzy [00:10:33] Yeah, I think so too. Simple is good, right? And so this is, I think, a great example, Amanda, where like, it can be informative or interesting to, like, dig in and understand, like how something is complicated and how it works. But we don’t want it to be complicated all the time, right? Like we want it that when you sit down to do your paycheck and your distributions, you have the same feeling that you used to have when you had your problem first. Where you look, it’s clear. It’s like you know exactly what you need to do. It takes less than ten minutes and you get on with your life. So we’re going to work these numbers back in to that top level. What I’m seeing here then is you right now have taxes and salary as two separate lines at profit first. Right. And these are your standard profit first buckets, right, we have profit, taxes, salary, operating expenses. There’s a big goals line there that you’re not using at this time. Right. So but it’s so it’s those standard profit first accounts because you’re an S corp and taxes and salary are now coming from the same place. What do you think about just folding those into one category? 

Amanda [00:11:32] I’m totally good with that. I had it that way. And then it also felt confusing that way as well. So I just I had it combined and then I separated it. So I’m happy to put it back. 

Linzy [00:11:43] Yeah. Because. And tell me what did feel confusing about it because this is also like you know, business owners choice right. So we want to think about what makes sense for your brain. 

Amanda [00:11:51] Well, what’s confusing to me in general is that I don’t have clarity on what my overall combined tax rate is. So when I look at sort of the payroll tax and the distribution taxes and how those things come together, I really don’t understand what that overall tax rate is. So it was clarifying in my mind to go Well, that’s just all coming from one big bucket. 

Linzy [00:12:12] Yes, I know that you were working with Sarah Johns, who’s another therapist in the course, because I had to call Sarah. And then you were on the phone. You were on the little video on the phone. So this is a joint spreadsheet that you’ve been working on together, which I love, by the way. It makes me very happy. And I know that she was working also on blended tax rate, like figuring out a blended tax percentage. Do you- have you come to that point here where you figured out kind of how things will shake out for a blended number, or is that totally still opaque at this point? 

Amanda [00:12:41] It’s opaque. 

Linzy [00:12:42] It’s opaque, yeah. Okay. Okay. So let’s take a look here then. So let’s zoom back out and put your average numbers in the top of this profit first box. Rather than the 335, let’s put in that safe 8000, and we’re going to see how these numbers shake out through these different kind of basically like little sum funnels. Right now, the way that things are set up, it would be 5440 would be for your taxes and salary. And of that, payroll and payroll taxes. So that payroll number pulls from 65% gets paid to you, and then your payroll tax rate is 30%. Is that correct? 

Amanda [00:13:20] Yes. 

Linzy [00:13:21] Layers and layers. Okay. So that means that for that 5440 breaks down into 1060 for paycheck taxes. And your distribution taxes are 285 on this same amount. I’m following you now down these little percentage roads. If we work it back in backwards, let’s just be curious about the tax numbers that you’ve now divvied out. What percentage of all the money that came in the door is that? Because that’s what we do in profit first, right, is like we take these very specific numbers and we just apply them to the number at the top. So that we’re like taking out all these different layers. So the total taxes then that you’ve identified you need to save is 1060 plus 285. And I’m using whole numbers. I’m not using decimals. Maybe I’ll make that 286. This was a big evolution, I will say. And in my own relationship to numbers, when I stopped using cents, I was like, I’mma let it go, letting go of the cents, we’re just doing whole dollars. 1346 is what’s total there for taxes. And if I take that 1346 and I divide it by the $8,000 that came in the door, it is 17% of everything. And then what would be left from that money if I take this and I minus the the taxes, 1494 would be actually going to you in salary and distributions and that is 51%. So you see what I’m doing is I’m working them back up into those numbers again. Okay, this is where we are. So what I’m noticing is, the numbers that we just came up with, were these the same or 1% off of what you had in there? 

Amanda [00:15:01] They were just 1% off. They were just flipped. Which 1% went from salary to taxes. 

Linzy [00:15:06] Yes. One to the other. Gotcha. Okay, perfect. So what we’ve done is like, you had taken this, you broke them out into these sub numbers. But when we zip them back up, we’re back where we were at the top, Right? So we’re back into, like, this simple framework that means that actually this piece of the top is giving you what you need. If you combine your accounts, then you would have taxes and salary together. Profit is also a type of distribution, right? So that’s something for you to think about, is where you want to keep your profit. Do you like having that separate profit account where you can take that celebration money? 

Amanda [00:15:40] I haven’t been steady enough long enough in my business to really be able to like take that in or appreciate it. I really needed to because it was getting through that first year, really building myself. I really actually needed to be paying myself that rather than waiting on that as profit. Yeah. So I haven’t had that as a set up, but I would like to. 

Linzy [00:16:03] Yeah, because like as you have the distributions, like you talked earlier about that idea of like taking the quarterly profit but also having like regular distributions that you’re taking every month. So if that’s the case, like you can leave that profit there. What I want to consider, though, is we want to make sure you’re setting aside enough money to cover those taxes as well. So it might be that we need to think about your tax rate and update a little bit to account for the money on that 4%. 

Amanda [00:16:27] Okay. 

Linzy [00:16:27] So your distribution tax, I see you have as as 15%. So that’s your personal income tax amount, The 15%. 

Amanda [00:16:34] Yes. And that’s- so I actually have the profit wrapped in below in this sort of purple section here. You’ll see that I did the same thing that you just did with the taxes, rolling it back into the 8000. That’s what I did with the profit. So I actually have the profit already included in this 15% tax rate. 

Linzy [00:16:55] Yes. Okay. Okay. So that was already built in. So 15% of the distribution. So those three numbers at the bottom add up to 1904, is that correct? The three numbers below. Okay. That’s how they zip up. Yes. Okay. Beautiful. Can you just highlight those three numbers together and we’ll just see if they sum up. That’s good. And then can you sum up the the 1376 down to the 285, just the numbers, right to the right. 1904. Beautiful. Okay. So the distribution total. So it looks like then there is a little bit of tax that also has to go aside. Do I understand that the way that you’ve you’ve done this math, there’s a little bit more tax. 

Amanda [00:17:30] We’ve already accounted for it in the 17%. Okay. So that 285 and 1060 was added to to figure out that 17% an overall amount. So it should be accounted for. Okay. Beautiful. And this $1,060 amount is actually- there’s a buffer in that. So my payroll taxes don’t add up. They add up to less than this for a month. 

Linzy [00:17:54] Okay. Okay. And have you built buffer in there on purpose. 

Amanda [00:17:58] Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:00] Yes. Okay. Because as I’m thinking about this, I’m like, okay, as you run your paychecks going forward. Right. Well, we’ll talk about this year and your little like kind of transition period soon, but next year going forward, it’s like when you run a paycheck, the taxes will automatically be calculated by Gusto. They’ll be remitted or you’ll remit them. And so your salary taxes are covered. Right. It’s just that that extra bit of dividend taxes that you need to think about is like putting aside enough that at the end of the year when you go to do your tax filing, you have enough money set aside for the taxes that apply to the dividend portion. And the dividend portion is not taxed with that self-employment tax. So it’s 15% less, right, than your salary. And that’s the beauty of an S corp. So it’s making sure you have that money set aside. What I’m curious about is like for yourself, Amanda, if you had taxes and salary folded together, let’s say you have your payroll taxes and salary for that together. We think of those as like one thing. I was doing this with somebody else in the course today. Earlier today, what we did is we looked at her dividend and dividend taxes separately. We broke those out on the calculator so she could see this is the dividend that’s available to me and these are the taxes that would apply to that dividend, separate from the total paycheck. What do you think about playing with the numbers that way and seeing what that looks like? 

Amanda [00:19:14] Sure. I trust you. 

Linzy [00:19:15] Let’s play with that. Let’s make a copy of this because I don’t want to lose your numbers. What I would like to see for you is how much money just needs to be going aside for just to cover your paycheck, like your payroll taxes and your actual paycheck itself. And then what’s available for you to take as dividends and have set aside for dividend taxes for your paycheck. What is the paycheck amount your accountant has you paying yourself? 

Amanda [00:19:41] The take-home or the total? The total net is 1745. 

Linzy [00:19:48] What is the gross?  

Amanda [00:19:51] Gross is 1567. 

Linzy [00:19:51] And your net is more than your gross because you’re adding on the 300 for the office. 

Amanda [00:19:55] No, that is not accounted for in that. So that I add as an additional reimbursement. 

Linzy [00:20:00] Yes. 

Amanda [00:20:02] On top of the check. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:03] Okay. Okay. So when you do a Gusto payroll run, then the number that I want to find out is how much does it cost you total to do a payroll run? Like there’s the money that’s paid to you, but then there’s also the payroll taxes that you’re paying on both sides. You’re paying the employer and the employee portion. And then we also have this 321 a month that happens coming back to you. 

Amanda [00:20:23] I do better with paper than me just saving all the things online. So this I actually printed out from my paycheck that I ran yesterday. 

Linzy [00:20:30] Great. Okay. Okay. So what is the total transaction that went through Gusto, then, to run your paycheck yesterday? Like, what’s the biggest number you can see? 

Amanda [00:20:38] The biggest number is 2817.75. 

Linzy [00:20:42] Okay. Right. 2817.75. Okay, great. And that’s going to be your gross paycheck and your payroll taxes. 

Amanda [00:20:52] That is the total that was paid out. 

Linzy [00:20:55] Yes. Okay. The total that was paid out to you or the total that was taken from the business? 

Amanda [00:21:00] The total that was taken from the business. 

Linzy [00:21:01] Yeah, that makes sense. 

Amanda [00:21:03] Yes. 

Linzy [00:21:03] And is this a weekly or bi-weekly? What’s your frequency? 

Amanda [00:21:07] Twice a month. So the 10th and the 25th.  

Linzy [00:21:09] Okay. And then one paycheck a month also has this reimbursement of 321. Is that correct? 

Amanda [00:21:14] Yes. So this paycheck had 1072. 

Linzy [00:21:19] Okay. 

Amanda [00:21:19] That because it was the entire first quarter of the year. 

Linzy [00:21:23] Okay. Okay. Yes. And what was your thinking on managing that like you have, yeah, like you said, this like catching up on paying yourself back to do. Are you planning to pay yourself back all of that before the end of the year for the whole year? 

Amanda [00:21:35] This is one of the things that I hadn’t really figured out. Yeah, in my mind I was going to do the first quarter today and then I was going to see how these numbers panned out and either next paycheck or next month do maybe one more quarter. Like I don’t actually know because it’s a reimbursement. I haven’t been setting aside money to reimburse myself. So it’s essentially that that’s one of these places where it’s confusing. It’s not like I’ve set aside separate money to reimburse myself. So I just basically right now I’ve been using the distribution amounts to put towards the reimbursement. 

Linzy [00:22:11] Yes. Yeah. And then next year you would want to think about this as part of your operating expenses that gets paid back to you. But you weren’t thinking about that as you’re running your numbers this year. 

Amanda [00:22:20] Hadn’t thought about it like that either though. So that’s quite helpful. Yes. 

Linzy [00:22:22] Is it like the way that this is broken up is it’s like, yeah, instead of paying rent to somebody else, you’re paying rent to yourself. But it is an operating expense for your business. That 321 a month is an operating expense and that 1200 a month is also an operating expense. 

Amanda [00:22:33] That I have folded in the 1200. 

Linzy [00:22:36] That’s in your op ex?  

Amanda [00:22:37] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:22:37] Okay. And is that a separate transfer or how are you paying yourself that? 

Amanda [00:22:40] I wrote myself a check. 

Linzy [00:22:42] Okay. Okay. So check for that. And I’m curious, like, what did your accountant explain to you about why you should do one on your paycheck and the other one as a written check. 

Amanda [00:22:50] She didn’t actually specify? I think maybe just for ease of tracking. It gets much easier to go in and just like look up like check number. I don’t use checks for very many things. So it’s like the one thing that. It’s just I can look up checks and it’ll be very clear. 

Linzy [00:23:07] Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, because something that I’m noticing, like, just as we’re talking about the new complexity. Right? And I’m feeling it, like, as we’re talking, I’m like, okay, wait. And then what’s this? And then what’s that? I’m thinking, how do we create simplicity? Right. And so, wondering that I have, and this is maybe a question for your accountant is like, would you have the option of paying yourself 1521 in a check once a month rather than putting it on your payroll? And then it just can come right out of your op ex account. Or two checks, one for 321, one for 1200. But that makes it clear it’s like, okay, this is my business paying me rent. 

Amanda [00:23:40] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:23:40] Just from a clarity perspective, getting it out of your paycheck, especially since you have 2 transfers happening that are kind of the same thing, but a little bit different. How does that idea sit with you of maybe having those just come out of your op ex in the future as checks? 

Amanda [00:23:53] I would imagine that that would make sense to her. I can’t see why not. Okay. 

Linzy [00:23:59] Because, like what I’m noticing here as we’re thinking about this is with profit first, it’s nice to be able to know that your op ex number is what you need it to be, and it’s covering everything. Right. And so with this piece of like, putting it on your paycheck, you could totally do it, but it’s almost like you would want to like have that money folded into your op ex and then make it transfer from op ex to your paycheck account to make it clear like, and this is my business paying me back like it’s- I’m thinking about how do we still give you the clarity of like, what is you and what is your business within this new structure that you’re in. 

Amanda [00:24:30] That makes a lot of sense to me. Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:24:31]  So with that, then, what I would love to play with is let’s look at putting your salary and taxes number together to find out what the what is the percentage that’s going to cover this paycheck amount that we need to see? How do we make sure that Gusto has the money sitting there that they need for those two paychecks a month? So on your calculator, I’m going to ask you to put taxes and salary together. Like just rename one of the lines and the two paychecks together that you’re paying yourself is 2817.75 a month. Times two. Two paychecks a month. Right? 5635. 

Amanda [00:25:06] That total amount from my- well, I guess like my next paycheck would be close to that too. Like I’ve been reimbursed like the next quarter. It would be closer but it won’t necessarily be quite that high on an ongoing basis. 

Linzy [00:25:18] Right. Because this. Okay, so was this paycheck. This was there was reimbursement in there as well for the 2817? 

Amanda [00:25:23] Yeah, that included 1072 of that operating expenses reimbursement. 

Linzy [00:25:29] Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. 1072. Okay. So we actually need to bring that number down by 1072. 1800. That seems low. Amanda, you’re paying yourself 1800 twice a month. Yeah. So, 3601. That’s your salary. 

Amanda [00:25:46] That’s the salary. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:25:47] Okay. Right. Yeah. Because if we multiply that by 12 and then there’s little taxes there, so it’s like 40 K a year just for you. Yeah. Okay. And that seems to be like the number that I notice that gets set as like the reasonable salary is like around $40,000. Okay, great. So 3601 then is actually the number that we are looking for in your taxes and salary line. So what do you notice about the way the percentages are set up right now? 

Amanda [00:26:11] Well, there’s a much higher percentage in taxes and salary. 

Linzy [00:26:13] It’s giving us $5,400. 

Amanda [00:26:16] Are we going to do a separate line for taxes and distributions? Is that the plan? Okay. Okay. 

Linzy [00:26:21] This is like your payroll line. Then we can call it payroll. So this is like Gusto. We’ve got to feed Gusto the money that it needs to give you. So now let’s play with that percentage. Okay. So let’s start by bringing down that payroll amount. To get it to the 3601 a month that needs to be funded to run your paycheck. So now you have another 20% to play with. So that would get you- that’s like the full distribution amount. But we also want to put aside taxes for your distributions and profit. So with that, yeah, like if we look at your distributions and taxes together is like if I take the 24 that’s left and I multiply that by your 15% is your distribution tax rate. It gives me 3.6. So I would say make your distribution taxes four and then you can make your distributions 16. 

Amanda [00:27:09] Does it make sense to still have a completely separate line for profit? 

Linzy [00:27:12] What that does for you, if it resonates, is it gives you a spot to have like specifically celebration money. That’s the function of profit, right? Is like it gives you that little like build up and it’s like you see the money building up and you get to anticipate like, oh, at the end of, you know, December, I could just take my profit money and you had to think about how to use it. For some folks, that really resonates. Does it resonate with you to have like celebration or reward money building up? 

Amanda [00:27:37] Well, at the moment I’m about a thousand bucks on average short on my personal budget. Yeah, so not presently. 

Linzy [00:27:45] But maybe one day. Yeah. So let’s fold that into your distribution amount then. Let’s make that distribution amount 20% and we’ll make profit zero. So what this is showing you right now is that. You will be able to fund that paycheck if you have your numbers at 48 and it would give you 1600 that you could take as a distribution each month. And then there’d be just 320 a month to set aside to cover the taxes for that distribution. And that’s based on a 15% tax rate. How do these numbers look to you? 

Amanda [00:28:16] They look good. 

Linzy [00:28:17] Okay. And let’s add those two numbers together. Let’s add your payroll number and your distribution number, like the 3840 and 1600. Because this is important, right? This is what money is actually available to you. So this would mean you have 5440 coming home to you each month in cash. 

Amanda [00:28:31] That would be minus about 925 for payroll taxes. 

Linzy [00:28:38] Yeah. So you would look and see like what is your payroll amount and then you’d have $600 distribution. How does that sit in terms of your needs? 

Amanda [00:28:46] Well, first of all, it’s just a lot clearer to understand. Yeah. And in terms and in terms of my needs, it makes a lot more sense to me. This is much clearer. 

Linzy [00:28:56] Because we also need to remember that you’re also having $1,200 come out of your operating expenses to you and another 321 a month come over operating expenses. So functionally, there’s also another $1,500 coming home to you to cover home expenses. 

Amanda [00:29:10] Yeah. I actually might want to actually increase my operating expense percentage to cover that. So I might actually do this. 

Linzy [00:29:18] Mm hmm. And what I’m and is doing is she’s playing with numbers. This is like what we do, right, is to see, like, okay, that number doesn’t sit great, but that number feels a little higher than I need, so we’ll do a little switch. These numbers then gives you whatever your after-tax paychecks are. Do you know how much actually comes home to you on your paychecks? Like how much hits your bank now? 

Amanda [00:29:37] $1,269.81. 

Linzy [00:29:40] Okay. Approximately. And then we have 1440. That would be your distributions. And then we have 1521 for the two different types of rent you’re paying. So it’s $4,230 for your household. 

Amanda [00:29:57] The sorry, the 1200 amount, that is one paycheck. So that’s actually that should be twice that. Oh, okay. Okay. The month. 

Linzy [00:30:08] So 1269 is your take on paycheck times two of those plus 1440 plus 1521. Yeah. Okay. 

Amanda [00:30:18] So 5449 that I can work with that I can like actually not be in a deficit on my personal budget. 

Linzy [00:30:26] I like that for you a lot. So much. So much. So these would be your going forward numbers. Yeah, right. So this is based on like, okay, next year if 8000 is your safe number. That’s the average. Then you would be able to be paying yourself 5449 totally would be coming home to you in these different ways. Slightly complicated ways, but ways that ultimately benefit you using the percentages that we’ve set here. So what are you noticing about these numbers so far? 

Amanda [00:30:52] Well, I guess it’s so much clearer to me right now that I will have like the 1521 with one payroll and then I will have the distributions, 1440 to go the other payroll. I just when and where the money is sort of being dumped out is a lot clearer to me. 

Linzy [00:31:11] Great. Okay. So you can see what the flow should look like. Yes. Yes. Yes. That makes sense because yeah, actually, you do have three different amounts over four weeks. So you could create nice flow around that of when to expect those payments. Yeah. Ooh, I like that a lot. Okay. So this is now like a flattened version of what we were looking at before. That’s more clear of like, what is there for dividends and what’s the dividend tax like? What I like about looking at these numbers together, I mean, it is I can see like you’ve thought about dividend taxes that’s covered and you can set that money aside like either in the business or you could have that sitting in a savings account for home. But we know that when that tax bill comes, you have been thinking about the dividend money and saving for those distribution taxes as you go, which I love for you. 

Amanda [00:31:51] Yeah, it also really clarifies for me as I’m making my profit first bank accounts, what actual accounts to make. 

Linzy [00:31:58] Yes. Yes. Yeah. 

Amanda [00:32:00] Because I was still very confused about that. 

Linzy [00:32:02] And this would be, I think, a good structure to set up these four accounts, which are a little bit different than the accounts you had before. Yes. So now there is a second piece that we can touch on lightly, which is about catching up then for the rest of the year. So this is like a plan for next year. This year you have this catching up to do with paying yourself back for the 321 a month, right, for the running your home office. Is there any catch up to do on that $1,200 a month rent for groups or no? 

Amanda [00:32:30] Yes. 

Linzy [00:32:31] Okay. Okay. So it’s just like a lot of catching up to do. 

Amanda [00:32:35] Precisely. 

Linzy [00:32:36] Yes. Okay. Okay. There’s something that I’m curious about is have you talked to your accountant about taking less paychecks for the rest of the year and have some of these reimbursements coming home instead? 

Amanda [00:32:45] I haven’t. I can ask if that’s possible. 

Linzy [00:32:49] I would ask about that, because there’s going to be a balance there. And this is accountant stuff. This is not my area of knowledge. But of like hitting that, you know, reasonable salary. But also it’s like there’s only so much money in the business. So if you’re going to be reimbursing yourself for that, like the business can’t necessarily give you both of those things at the same time. At this moment, how much money do you have to catch up on or how many months you have to catch up on this $1,200 a month rent. 

Amanda [00:33:11] So you can actually rent 14 times in the year, which means that there’s two months that you can actually rent twice. So I paid myself for one. So that leaves 13. Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:23] 13 times 1200 is 15,600 that you’d be kind of due to apply for all this time that you’ve used your office for these groups. And then the 321 that you need to pay yourself back. You’ve done one quarter so far. 

Amanda [00:33:39] Yeah, I actually have those totals labeled out in my YNAB. 

Linzy [00:33:42] Beautiful. Music to my ears. 

Amanda [00:33:44] So for quarter two, it’s basically 1006. Quarter three is 965. And the fourth quarter I haven’t figured out at all that. I’ll probably wait on until after the summer. Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:58] So there’s another thousand and six plus 965, which is 1971. So what I’m hearing here then is between that money and the money for the space rental, there’s $17,571 that your business owes you that is not taxable. That is actually operating expenses that are owed to your household. So I would definitely be asking your accountant, can you just take those reimbursements out of the business for the rest of the year? You might need to still run a couple more paychecks to cover where you need to be, but considering we’re very close to the end of the year, I suspect that those reimbursements could basically replace your paychecks for the rest of the year and then you’re not running paychecks and having payroll taxes set aside. That’s going to sit with the IRS until next May. Right. Because you know that you don’t owe more taxes while your business owes you all this money right now. 

Amanda [00:34:50] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:34:50] Does that make sense as a course of action to check with your accountant about that? 

Amanda [00:34:53] It does. I didn’t even know that was a possibility of something like that to happen. 

Linzy [00:34:56] Yeah, you pay yourself regularly and you can check with your accountant. And again, I’m going to say as folks are listening, this is a question for Amanda’s accountant. This is not me saying this is what you should do, but it’s like, is this possible? Right. And this is where with numbers, as you know, Amanda, that curiosity can be helpful. But like, I’m like, can we do this? And your accountant might be like, Sure, yeah, totally. Or like, Oh, yeah, I totally meant to tell you to do that, right? But just to see if you can work this way. And if it can’t, then she should have a different solution for how to get this money back into your pocket, because I don’t think you have like $60,000 at the moment to pay this back and also pay yourself all your own checks. 

Amanda [00:35:29] Yes, exactly. And that’s what I partly what’s been so confusing. 

Linzy [00:35:33] Yes. So this has been a journey through spreadsheet land and beyond. What are you noticing coming towards the end of our conversation today? 

Amanda [00:35:39] I feel more clear. Like I just feel more organized about what the numbers actually are and what my course of action can be following our conversation. I’m also, as always, feeling a sense of gratitude for you and the way that you can actually take things that are a total mess, that are happening for someone else and somehow just be like, Oh yeah, this makes total sense. Let’s just do it this way. So thank you. You’re welcome. Yeah, I’m just. I’m just feeling a little less overwhelmed. 

Linzy [00:36:08] Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, now that we’ve worked the numbers, it’s like you can work them into the profit first. And the beautiful thing about profit first is, like, it can be a conversation, right? So if you go to run a couple of paychecks and then something’s changed about your numbers that you need a bit more, you can tweak your percentages, right? You can like take a little money from our backs and top it up. But I think that this will cover your basic needs and then you can always just tweak and adjust, but this brings that simplicity back into your system. Thank you so much, Amanda, for coming on the podcast and sharing this with everybody today. There were definitely points in this conversation with Amanda where my brain hurt. And I think that’s important to share because money – the work that I do with folks and what I teach is how to make it simple, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t moments where you really have to think about how these things work, right? And I definitely had these moments in our conversation with Amanda where it was like, Wait, sorry, what was that? What’s this? How does this apply? Because it was in a very, like, complicated place. And so taking the time to understand how the numbers needed to fit together and how they needed to flow to the bank account and taking the time to make sure that we highlighted the important things, right. Like what we did in that conversation as we separated out a number for dividends that could be right in the top of Amanda’s profits calculator. So she knows for every dollar that comes in the door exactly what percentage can go towards her dividends. And then based on that dividend percentage, we send a tax percentage that we know is going to cover the taxes for those dividends. We took it so that the information that was most important was at that very top level. So she could see it really clearly. And it took a little bit of doing to get there, but we got there so that working through sometimes with money, when you’re in the process of creating clarity or looking at your numbers, it can feel heavy, murky, confusing. All of those things can happen. But it’s that like being with it and being curious and thinking about, okay, what do I actually need to see here? What is important? What am I trying to accomplish that can help you bring simplicity and clarity into something that otherwise can be very confusing and overwhelming. 

If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you are looking to sink your teeth into something a little more substantial, I have a free mini training called The Secret to Getting Unstuck in Your Finances. This mini training includes a series of videos that walk you in little bite sized steps through looking at your relationship with money. If you find that you have a lot of anxiety around money, so you just avoid it. If you always feel like you’re just kind of getting by with money, but that’s it. And you know you should be saving for the future, but you’re just not. Or if you always feel like you have just enough money, no matter how many clients you see, you still feel like you’re getting by. This mini training is for you. It’s going to guide you in really starting to understand what your emotional relationship is with money, what your stories are around money, and what I have learned from doing this work with therapists over the last five years is that that is the starting place, right? Once we can identify the stories and the feelings that come up and where they’re coming from. Then we can start to make space for the learning and do the kind of working through that Amanda and I just did together, Right. Which is like digging in and using our skills to create great clarity and create systems. But that mindset work is foundational, and working on your relationship with money is foundational. To be able to learn how to get money working for you because you’re thinking brain needs to be available. So if you are interested in that mini training, I’m going to put a link to it in the show notes. It is the secret to getting unstuck in your finances. Thanks for listening today. 

David [00:00:01] Give yourself permission to have feelings. Give yourself permission to show up and get intimidated and just, like, avoid it for a week. Don’t expect yourself to come to anything new, right, including money and finance, and be like, okay, I’m just going to sit down. I’m going to nail it. I’m going to do it all perfectly from the get go and it’s going to be done. It’s an emotional roller coaster at times of like, things are going great. Things aren’t going so great. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is David Frank. David is a financial planner who focuses specifically on therapists through the firm that he’s founded, Turning Point Financial Life. He helps therapists navigate all the elements of their financial life from understanding profit and loss to building a personal budget, to managing student loan debt and investing for retirement and everything in between. But he says, don’t let his love of tax code and spreadsheets scare you off. You’re just as likely to find him with his nose buried in one of Pema Chodron’s books as reading up on the latest financial planning techniques. And I think you’re really going to notice that balance in my conversation with David today. Today, we get into talking about, first of all, emotions and financial planning. What is the relationship between those things? And we talked about how people, at the end of the day, we are emotional. And so really working with that when we are planning for our financial future goes a long way. Being connected with our values. Really helpful insights from him. And he talks about some research that supports that. We talk about what to do if you feel like you’re behind, you know, which is something that I hear a lot from folks coming into Money Skills for Therapists when it comes to saving for retirement that they feel behind, they need to catch up. David and I talk about that story and what to do if you find yourself in that place and how to get started with investing. Good investment strategy. David suggests a really concrete investing strategy to use, whether you’re already investing or just getting started. David gives some very specific advice on how to go about picking what to invest in. Here’s my conversation with David Frank. So, David, welcome to the podcast. 

David [00:02:40] Thank you. I’m excited to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:42] Yeah, I’m excited to have you here. So, David, you are a financial planner who specifically serves therapists. 

David [00:02:51] It’s true. Yep, exactly right. 

Linzy [00:02:53] So for folks who are listening right now, I notice sometimes it can be hard sometimes to identify the terms like difference, like financial planner versus financial advisor versus like investment advisor. Can you tell folks a little bit about what you do specifically? 

David [00:03:06] Yeah, that’s a great point. And it’s such a point of confusion in terms of understanding titles in the financial services industry. And unlike the world of therapy, there is really no standards and there’s not a lot of regulation around who can use what term. So when I say I’m a financial planner, what that means to me is sort of it’s in the name really. It’s like it’s creating a plan for your finances and that incorporates everything from understanding and planning for the finances of your practice as well as your personal finances, and making sure that the whole piece, everything works together. And investing and planning for retirement and using retirement plans is definitely part of financial planning, but it’s not the exclusive focus of financial planning. So when you would compare a financial planner to maybe something like a wealth manager or an investment advisor or a financial advisor, typically financial planners are going to be a little bit more holistic and want to look at things beyond just your investment account, where more traditionally the financial services industry has been just about investments. So very narrowly focused on just that one thing and helping you just do that one thing. 

Linzy [00:04:19] Right. So you’re looking at the whole picture more when you’re looking at some of the financial health and financial future. 

David [00:04:26] Yeah, exactly. And actually, there’s a- I also wrote a blog piece a couple months back talking about some of these different titles and how to determine what type of help you might need. There’s even things like financial therapists or financial coaches out there. So they all- we all sort of like do different things and the titles are very fluid. So I think you really, when you see someone that you might consider working with, I think looking at their website, just understand what they talk about and what their focus is and even maybe have a conversation with them to really understand. Okay, I understand this is the title that you’re using a financial planner, a financial coach or whatever. But tell me like, what is it that you actually do and like, what does the process look like? And that will be a lot more informative than just relying on the title alone because people use the titles inconsistently. 

Linzy [00:05:12] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, you know, asking what they do is good to know in general as you think about what you need. Right. Like I know a few years ago, my partner and I were looking to work with an out-of-pocket financial planner and we sat down with someone and he’s like, Well, I’ll just put your numbers in the computer. And I was like, Sorry, what? That’s what you do. Like not a great sales pitch. Hopefully he did more than that. But I realized, like he’s just going to do financial modeling and it’s like, Well, I could do financial modeling. I could see that this person wasn’t going to give me any kind of like strategy or guidance that I needed. And so that was also helpful to realize, like, okay, what you do is actually your approach is not the approach I’m looking for. Yeah. Move on to the next person who is going to meet you more where you need to be. 

David [00:05:53] Yeah. And on that note, I would also say, this stuff is intimidating. Like money and finance. Like it’s intimidating. Yes. And so I think for a lot of us, I include myself in this. I’m reluctant to ask a question sometimes because I don’t want to look like I don’t know what I’m talking about. Yeah. And I think like that is- don’t be afraid to ask questions. And they’re literally like the expression says, like there is no such thing as a stupid question. Feel free. Like ask questions. Ask- especially important when working with financial folks is understanding how you pay them or how are they compensated. So you really just like understand, like feel. Don’t let yourself be intimidated. Let yourself ask questions and be, you know, make sure that you’re that you’re comfortable with the person that you’re talking to. 

Linzy [00:06:40] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I do think what I noticed with therapists and health practitioners is sometimes we can be intimidated because we’re used to being good at things. So when we’re not good at something, you’re kind of like, I don’t want to ask the question that makes me look stupid because I’m not used to being stupid. I’m used to being very good at things. Yeah. And so it can be easy to defer and not speak up, which can lead to a really disempowering relationship with somebody who’s trying to help you or should be trying to help you. 

David [00:07:06] Yeah. And I’d also say just sort of progress rather than perfection here. Like, if you find yourself intimidated and you didn’t ask the question that you really wanted to ask in the meeting, just follow up with an email. No big deal. Yeah, you know, but yeah, just like keep coming back to it. But I totally agree. And I think one of the best life skills is to get comfortable feeling just being a non-expert. So being a beginner and just getting comfortable with like, whoa, this is something I don’t know anything about. This is a little intimidating. And you know what? Especially for those for all the mental health professionals out there listening, like you can tell yourself. I’ve gone to graduate school or maybe beyond. I’ve passed licensing exams. Like I am smart, I can figure things out. There’s tons of evidence to support that. And this finance and money stuff, it’s intimidating and sure, there are nuances to figure out, but it isn’t rocket science like you absolutely can figure this out. It’s just going to take a little bit of time and effort. 

Linzy [00:08:00] Yeah, well, and that comes into a piece that, you know, I think about when it comes to financial planning is like that’s an example, I think, of emotions coming up as part of our expenses of even trying to get help, which is like having that shame come up or defeat or, you know, being very self-critical. So I’m curious, you know, what have you noticed about that role of emotions when it comes to financial planning, the work that you’re doing with people? 

David [00:08:23] Yeah. So, I mean, it really all comes back to emotions. Like I think like when I saw my first therapist years and years ago, like as a client or as a patient, you know, he sort of walked me through. It is like, well, what else beyond emotion is there? Like, we take actions with the hope of achieving a certain, like emotional state, right? And like, that was like a really I was like, wait, I can’t be that. It can’t just be all emotions. But it is. Like that’s what being alive and being a human being is. And I think there’s often a tendency, mostly by folks in my profession, the financial services profession, to be like, this is money. It is about spreadsheets and numbers and investment accounts and emotions like that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. But in fact, emotions are everywhere in money, you know, just like fear, like pride, like status, like there’s so many things tied up there, like everything comes up. And so I think there’s a number of ways in which emotions are important when it comes to financial planning. But I think first and foremost, while there’s a number of stories I can tell there, but I think first and foremost is just accepting it and just being willing to hold space and just give yourself permission to have feelings, give yourself permission to show up and get intimidated and just like avoid it for a week. Like, that’s okay. You know, like, don’t expect yourself to come to something, anything new, right, including money and finance, and be like, Okay, I’m just going to sit down. I’m going to nail it. I’m going to do it all perfectly from the get-go. And it’s just going to be, it’s going to be done. Like it is- it’s an emotional roller coaster at times of like, things are going great, things aren’t going so great. And I think the practice is making a wider variety or wider range of emotional experiences around money be okay. I think that’s super, super empowering. 

Linzy [00:10:07] Absolutely. I mean, there’s so many pieces there. I’m like, want to pull out so many pieces of what you just said. But you know, that piece around emotion and money is really powerful because I do think that, yeah, it’s easy to take in the message. That emotion when it comes to money is a liability or a distraction or it’s like you need to get past your feelings right in order to really understand money. But as you say, like, what else is there in life, right? Like, what are we seeking as humans? You know, we’re seeking to have experiences of enjoying being alive. And what is that experience? It’s having positive emotions, right? Or having emotions of growth and those kinds of things. And so- but that’s a really helpful grounding as we’re thinking about this, because it is so true. I think so often what therapists and health practitioners and just kind of more emotionally oriented people, what we tend to experience sometimes when you sit down across from somebody who’s so in that logical brain and so in that spreadsheet is like, not only do you not understand what they’re saying, but it doesn’t mean anything. Right? Like there’s no richness to it or depth. And like, this is something that, you know, the more over the years that I’ve been supporting therapists around money, I’ve started talking about this more and more of like, that’s kind of the point, right? Like, the point is to generate meaning in your life or generate connection or like, go after- give yourself more of what you want. And money’s a tool to do that. But when you just look at black and white numbers, you know, if you don’t have a vision for what those numbers actually mean or understanding what those numbers can do, yes, they are meaningless. And that’s not very motivating. Right. Like, it’s not very motivating to put aside a thousand bucks a month for retirement when you’re like, okay, so then I’ll have that number. Okay.

David [00:11:42] Yeah. So what. 

Linzy [00:11:44] What’s the difference between that number and this other number? So there is a flatness that can happen when we don’t think about the emotional part. 

David [00:11:50] Yeah. So, So yeah, you’re right on. And I want to share this. It’s a story, but it’s a study that was done. And it was a study that was written up in the Journal of Financial Planning, which is a thing. And it was about helping folks save more for whatever. For their future retirement or other future plans. And so what they did is they recruited a bunch of people that wanted to save more money. I think they did a couple hundred people were in the study and then they split them into two groups and one group they just gave a bunch of financial education, just like the cold, hard facts. Like here’s what the different account types, like, here’s how interest rates work, here’s how money grows over time, just to like hear all the tactical tools here, like the technical pieces you need to understand to save more. So that was group one was just financial education. Group number two, they didn’t get any financial education at all. And in fact, they were told to bring in a sentimental object, like some object that has sentimental meaning to them. And then what they did in the group is like they were asked to reflect on what values that like why was that sentimental object so important to them? What values were behind that? What did it say about them as a person? And then they tied their savings goals, their desire to say, let’s say, save $1,000 per month for retirement. They connected those saving goals to their values and to what was important to them as a person. Yeah. And then they even literally kind of made a vision because they kind of like drew like graphical representations of what that goal looked like. And so now you’ve got something, you’ve got sort of a tangible financial goal of $1,000 of savings per month connected not only to sort of what your goal looks like, but also how it connects back to the values and what’s really important to you. But again, keep in mind, this group didn’t get any guidance whatsoever on the technical skills of money. And so then they said, okay, great. So they set the two groups on their way, and then I forget how long the time period they looked at, but maybe was like six months or a year or something. They looked at the two groups and saw how their savings behavior changed and both groups saved more money, which was great. But one group saved dramatically more, in fact, three times more than the other group. If you want to guess which group was which, you already know. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, it was the sentimental. 

Linzy [00:14:03] The sentimental. Yeah. Their values. 

David [00:14:05] Yeah. Like, so connecting all those pieces because like, when you’re that connected and sort of when the goals are not just dry numbers on a spreadsheet or on a page, but it’s really connected to what’s important to you. Then you just sort of, you figure it out, right? Like they didn’t get the financial education piece but like, Man, this is important to me. And I understand. I’ve been really clear about why this is important to me. So now I’m going to make the thing happen. And I mean, three times more. I mean, this isn’t a small effect like this is pretty dramatic. But I think it makes sense because all of this stuff, like it’s work. Like, Yes, you know, like it’s not easy. It’s uncomfortable. It’s extra work. Extra work. But it’s just, you know, it’s it’s hard. Yeah. And, you know, it’s- I think there’s a lot of analogies we can sort of draw between diet and exercise and personal finance or even taking care of the finances of your practice. Like, it’s just tough. There’s going to be times where you just don’t feel like doing it. 

Linzy [00:15:00] Yes. 

David [00:15:00] And that’s going to come sooner or later or it’s something that’s going to go kind of quote unquote, wrong or a little off track. There’s going to be a challenge. And I think the more we can connect back to what really matters to us as a human being, the better suited we are to overcome those obstacles that inevitably will show up 100%. 

Linzy [00:15:20] Yeah, and that’s a topic that I’ve also found more and more organically as I work with folks comes up is is values, right? Like what actually matters to you? And I’m not surprised that the emotional group saved more. Of course, that’s also my like you know, therapist in there. But of course, of course, you know, it’s that deeper stuff that makes the difference. But part of what I think about, too, is there is also for savings, for instance, what can be experienced as sacrifice. Right. You have to make a decision like, I’m going to do this. And because I’m doing this, I can’t do this other thing. So it has to be worth it. There has to be a reason that it’s worth it to, you know, put aside that thousand dollars for that instead of buying some flashy thing that you like would give you that really lovely dopamine hit, you know, four times, actually. Yeah. Just knowing intellectually, like, oh, well, because of the interest rates, this money will grow to this much by the time I’m 60. Like, that doesn’t really mean a lot. And I think a lot of us, too, don’t necessarily- we can’t make a strong connection with that future self as much as we want to. Right? Like I know one of my colleagues, Annie Wright, has a course, a mini course inside my course, where she talks about being able to think about your future self, and especially for people who come from like trauma backgrounds where you didn’t have that sense of solidity, where every day was survival. It’s really hard to think about your future self. And she has folks do the exercise of like doing one of those face aging things. Yeah, you could actually see yourself as you’re older, and I know especially too for people with ADHD, I’ve heard them share that it’s really hard to conceptualize your future self. Right. Like to believe in that future, but it really does have that long-term impact. So I can see how staying connected to now, why is this not just important in the future? Why is this important now? Like, how does this reflect who I am would be a powerful motivator to stay on track rather than an abstract number. That doesn’t really mean anything. 

David [00:17:04] Yeah, man, it’s so. I mean, you hit on a key point, which is like it’s difficult to think about our future self. And I think I think I’ve read some research that just like the default way of thinking about your future self is as a stranger. 

Linzy [00:17:15] Yes. 

David [00:17:16] So it’s just like, why would I, why would I give my money away to a stranger? That doesn’t sound like a smart thing to do, right? 

Linzy [00:17:22] Don’t even know them. 

David [00:17:23] I love the like the A.I. tool to like age yourself. For some reason, like, those visual cues are super powerful. Yeah. So like, yeah, creating even like, a vision board for what you want your retirement to look like. Maybe include that aged AI image of yourself just to really connect with the person that you’re going to be in the future. Yes. And just like realize you want to take care of that person, too. 

Linzy [00:17:45] Mm hmm. Because something that makes me think about, too, is also making sure that you are giving yourself positive experiences, nurturing experiences, fun experiences now, too. Yeah, right. Because that’s also something about retirement. And, you know, I’m sure you probably have stories that can come to mind. I know. I certainly do. Where sometimes people work so hard, they work so hard. They save so hard because it’s like when we retire, we’re going to live the dream. We’re going to spend half the year in Florida and like, you know, people who really often like from working class backgrounds where they sacrificed so much during their life and then they die six months after retirement or die even before they retire. Right. And I can think of many stories like that where you don’t get to have the happy ending that you’ve sacrificed so much to have. Yeah, right. And so, you know, I think about that, too, in terms of when we think about financial planning and at retirement in the future is like I think so often people think that it has to be all or nothing like that. They have to sacrifice everything today to live till tomorrow or they tell themself a story, you know, of like everything’s going to be better tomorrow. And when I think about what you’re talking about of like values, connecting with what’s really important to you, letting that guide your savings, I also think like how powerful, but also let your money do those things for you today. Yeah, because we don’t know. We don’t know what the future is going to bring. But you know what’s important to you today, right? 

David [00:19:01] Yeah. Like so many things in life, the saving stuff is is about balancing. It’s not all or nothing. And it’s so easy for so many of us. I include myself in this. But to fall into all-or-nothing thinking, total black and white, super binary. I don’t know why I like that. Maybe that’s just easy for our brain to like understand and just like, Oh, I get it. It’s this. It’s in this box. Yes. And yes, it’s about balancing. It’s about, you know, saving up for like a trip or something in the next six months or 12 months and saving for retirement at the same time. Yes, it gets tricky. But you’re right. I mean, yeah, I mean, there’s like a number of sad stories that come to mind that, you know, it’s just like people that worked so hard to get to retirement and then they never got there. And again, like that is unlikely to happen, but it can happen. So, yeah, just sort of eyes wide open and balancing. 

Linzy [00:19:49] Yes. Yeah, I think about it like, you know, a therapy term we would use for that is like a both and. It’s a both and. Like it’s important both to enjoy your money today, let it do great things for today. And to save for your future. Right. For that that future version of you who might be hard to connect with, but who’s- they’re going to be you, just older, right? And so trying to connect with why it’s really important to be saving this money, what you want to give that person. And with this, David, like, you know something that you do and that you help folks with, which I do not do at all, is investing. Right. And what I notice is as folks build a better relation with money, like when they do the work that they do with me, which is building out that foundation, getting money working, being like, okay, this is my regular paycheck amount. Taxes are covered. Often folks start saving up money for retirement, feeling like they’re also making up for lost time. Right? So I work with lots of folks who feel like they’re making up for lost time. It’s like, I should have done this when I was 22. Now I’m 41. Shit. Okay, here we go. And getting into the investing world, it can be very intimidating, right? Yeah. For folks who are stepping into that, maybe for the first time, what’s the best way to start with investing? 

David [00:20:59] Yeah, so I think the world of investing is overwhelming and there is just so much, frankly, garbage information that is out there in terms of what to do with your money, whether it’s investing in the latest cryptocurrency or like the next new, you know, hot stock or hot tech company or whatever. There’s always so many people out there like throwing these these ideas. And, you know, it’s not to say that you can’t make a lot of money by investing in the right, you know, investing in Bitcoin at the right time, like ten years ago. Yeah, that that was a great outcome. But it’s very difficult and you might even say impossible. It’s just sort of predict what the next big thing is going to be. And there is a ton of academic research about around this like finances, its own academic discipline. And there’s a lot of really smart people, certainly smarter than me, that have been looking at, well, how do you invest prudently? Like what is the right thing to do? You know, this has been going on for decades. And the research is really is very clear that picking individual stocks or picking individual cryptocurrencies or, you know, investing in wine or art, all of these things are very unlikely to achieve big, you know, good outcomes over the long term. They might do okay for- you might get one pick, right? It might do okay for a couple of years, but especially when we think about saving for things like retirement, which for most of us is, you know, decades away, we need our investments to consistently increase over time. And so the best way to do that is to have a portfolio. And portfolio is just a fancy word for the investments that you have, invest in a highly diversified and kind of what I would call a passive way. And that means – and we’ll talk about tactically how to do this in a second – but what it means is that you’re not picking individual stocks, you’re not buying Bitcoin, you’re not day trading or any stuff like that. You’re just buying consistently over time. Like every time you issue that paycheck to yourself or however you run your finances. You say like, okay, I’m going to take a percentage of this. I’m going to put it in that mutual fund, which is highly diversified and passively managed. And I know because it is those things, it’s going to have low internal costs and it means that so I know I’m not giving my money to the managers of that fund. I’m giving some money, but not a lot of money to them. And costs like that matter a lot when you’re investing over the long term and you know that what’s going to happen is that you’re basically you hold the market as a whole kind of so you’ve basically invested in the entire stock market. And what’s going to happen is that there’s going to be some companies that, you know, kill it, like knock it out of the park that become, you know, the Googles and whatever. All those big tech companies you’re going to own that’s going to be in your portfolio. And when those 10x, 100x in value, you’re going to see some of that. There’s also going to be a lot of companies that go bankrupt or do really poorly. But overall, it’s going to be okay because you’re highly diversified and the market is going to do what the market does, which is – at least over the last 100-plus years – there’s a lot of ups and downs, like a lot of ups and downs. So be ready for that. Like, that is going to happen. It will not consistently increase in value each time, but when you kind of zoom out and look at decades, you’ll see that while there’s a lot of zigzags, a lot of ups and downs, what tends to happen is that the market goes up over time. And so when the market goes up over time, when you’ve invested in sort of a passive low-cost, highly diversified way, you participate in the overall growth of the market. And I think that’s what yields the best outcomes. 

Linzy [00:24:29] Yeah. And it’s very- it’s really not sexy. 

David [00:24:32] It is not. 

Linzy [00:24:33] Just to be like, I’m just going to put my money into literally everything. Just see how everything does. Yeah. And this is where I think, you know, sometimes people will fall into this thing of, you know, trying to outsmart the market. Right? Like trying to pick something, pick the next winner. Right. Is like, I can see why, you know, from almost like a control perspective of feeling like we can be effective. Yeah. We want to be able to do better than average, right? We want to be able to do something that has a big impact. And I do think with investing like business, there can be this get-rich-quick mentality that we can fall into thinking that we can do the right thing and everything’s going to be different. We’re going to like have it made. We’re going to be able to retire at 40 years old because we made one good choice. And as you say, statistically, that’s not how it works. Yeah, right. It might work like that for people who picked Bitcoin, but for every Bitcoin there’s, you know, 100 cryptocurrencies that went nowhere. Exactly. Or that people just lost all their money, you know, with all these markets, like so that kind of highly speculative investment, it has to be money that you, you don’t actually need. Yeah, right. You’re basically gambling at that point. 

David [00:25:38] Yeah it is. I think there is a distinction between gambling and investing, and gambling is like putting it all in red and just like spinning the wheel and seeing what happens. 

Linzy [00:25:45] Yes. 

David [00:25:45] And I think a lot of people think that’s what investing is. And I think you’re you’re right. It’s not sexy. It’s almost counterintuitive. I think Warren Buffett, who’s, you know, this famous investor, I think he said that I think he said this someone smart said this, that we sort of practice benign neglect, which is just like you invest in a diversified way. And then when the market drops, you know, it’s like, oh, the market drops like what’s the right thing to do? The right thing is nothing. 

Linzy [00:26:10] Nothing. 

David [00:26:10] And that’s so difficult because it just feels like things change and we’re like, I’ve got to do something right. Like there’s something I got to do. Yes. And what I always say is, like, therapists should make some of the best investors in the world. And the reason I say that is because the work of investing is not picking winners like you mentioned. It’s rather sitting with your emotions and getting comfortable with a range of emotional experiences around what your portfolio is doing and then doing nothing like this. 99 times out of 100, something happens and the right action is nothing. And you know, I also want to say just like that, that concept of making up for lost time, that’s something that I hear a lot and it sometimes is connected to the question of what should I invest in? Like I hear people say sometimes, like I hear you diversified investing, using target date funds from someone like Vanguard. I hear you that that kind of makes sense. But I mean, I really have to I have to make up for lost time. So, like, I, you know, I need to do something different. 

Linzy [00:27:09] Mm hmm. 

David [00:27:09] And for better or for worse, at least in my opinion. And I think my opinion is backed up by, like, tons of academic research. There isn’t anything. There isn’t anything you can do. I mean, you can kind of pull some levers in terms of like, how much risk you’re willing to take. What sort of the blend of like stock market or equity investing versus fixed income. Yeah. Like all that. But it’s- you can’t really make up for lost time. It’s sort of a philosophical statement almost. But, you know, Yeah, I think trying to make up for lost time can hurt people sometimes because they absolutely there’s like this piece of like desperation almost. It’s like, oh, I got to do this. And yeah, that oftentimes doesn’t work out very well. 

Linzy [00:27:50] No. And it’s a painful story, too, is what I notice when often people are carrying this story of making up for lost time is it’s like in that story there’s like, I failed. I didn’t do it right. And then, as you say, like, that’s where we can become desperate. Or I find, you know, in the work that I help people do, that’s where people can become really hard on themselves and they want to like they’re like, well, I didn’t get to my finances all year, so now I need to sit down for 6 hours and do my finances. Like they’re basically punishing themselves. 

David [00:28:18] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:28:18] That’s not actually how building a sustainable relationship works, right? And what I’m thinking with investing too, it’s like there can be grief totally for the fact that you lost some gains, right? That you didn’t invest when you were 20 and maybe the money, the interest you could have made between 20 and 35 would have been great. But you don’t have it, right. So as you say, like there’s that piece of like sitting with the emotion being like, that really sucks. I wish that I’d been different. Right? You know, like, we’re allowed to feel that way. But the solution isn’t to do something drastic. The solution, I think, is to be even steadier. Right. And even more committed to like, okay, you know, this is my my target. This is why it’s important to me. Like that value piece you talked about earlier, you know, and that’s, you know, something I’m curious about. If people do find themselves in the position where they work with a financial planner and they realize that to get where they need to be for retirement, they’re going to have to put aside quite a lot of money. Yeah, you know, what do you see? You know, thinking back to that values example used earlier, what are some of the ways that you’ve seen people really be able to succeed, maybe using some of that kind of like emotional piece we talked about earlier, the meaning or the values? 

David [00:29:23] I think connecting with values is really important. And I take folks through what I call a life planning process where we get. Really, we paint this vision of your near-term future, not just retirement, but the near-term future of what you’re wanting to create. So like looking into that, you know, connecting into those values, doing things like a vision board or like just having statements that you literally put somewhere like on the fridge door or on the bathroom mirror where you’re just like, continue to remind yourself of what you’re moving towards and why it’s important for you. And the other thing sort of links back to something that you said that this is about developing the relationship. It’s not about fixing everything overnight. It’s about I mean, I think there’s a piece of, you know, like the book Radical acceptance of just like accepting things, how they are like and just accepting that, like, the past can’t be any other way. Like the past is the past and just sort of like letting go of that and accepting that and then sort of you don’t need to like, quote unquote, fix everything overnight. Like if you’re spending too much money, it’s like, okay, well, let’s just like develop a practice of like coming back to it. Like, I sort of talk about having money dates with your software, like every week or so. You’ve got a scheduled time. It’s on the calendar. That you treat it with as much respect as you get sort of a client appointment. You’re just like, This is my time to sit down at money and look at things and then just begin to think like, okay, how can we change things? And, you know, sometimes there are, you know, painful changes that need to be made. And like, like that’s tough, you know, maybe the mortgage is really actually unaffordable. Like, you know, like, I think that’s like the biggest one that I see. Like, sometimes it’s like the housing the housing that we’re in actually doesn’t work with our overall financial plan. And so we need to change that. And that’s painful or can be. But also don’t don’t jump into action like too soon, don’t catastrophize, just sort of be like, okay, let’s just keep back and revisit, keep revisiting it and thinking like, okay, here’s what my numbers are. I kind of know what needs to happen. I need to keep moving in this direction. Doesn’t need to happen overnight because nothing really happens overnight anyway. So just like how do I keep moving myself closer and closer and Yeah, and just. And just have someone like a financial planner in your life. Or maybe it’s, you know, or a friend or an accountability buddy or something like that. Like having someone else in the conversation with you I think is really powerful. That’s why I have my own financial planner because like, yeah, I could do it myself, but like I need someone who doesn’t live between my two years to be like in this conversation because it be like I get emotional about this stuff too, and sometimes I catastrophize, you know, things happen and it’s like having an outside party who is not as hooked into the emotions, who can be like, okay, we’re going to take a deep breath, look at the reality of the situation and think about what we can do to get closer to where we want to be. 

Linzy [00:32:02] Yeah, like I’m hearing, you know, a kind of a sustained being with, you’re talking about like, yeah, it’s building of that tolerance to keep being with it. It’s not about being with the problem once and making some drastic move and then it’s fixed and you don’t have to do it again. Like, Yes, you know, our relationship with money is an ongoing relationship. Yes. And so it’s that like, yeah, coming back to it, being curious like something curiosity is something I always encourage because I was a trauma therapist, is the type of therapy I used to do. And so curiosity can be really good at disarming anxiety and getting our problem-solving brain back online. Right. And being curious is like, okay, well, like what if this, what if that, how can that get me closer to where I want to be? What if I did sell my house? What if we did move into a condo? Would actually be a relief in some ways. Yeah, right. And again, I feel like that grief piece comes up again of like, sometimes we do have to grieve. Grieve that like our situation is unsustainable. Grieve that we have to make a certain decision to create more sustainability. That means we have to let something go. But therapists are good at that. Yeah, we do the feelings professionally. So what I’m hearing from you is like we have the capacity to do that. 

David [00:33:06] Absolutely. Yeah. What I always say is like finances, both in your practice and your personal finances. It’s not a project to complete, like it’s a practice to develop because it like it’s never for better or for worse. Like it never it never ends. Yes. It’s just something that we have to incorporate as part of our lives. 

Linzy [00:33:22] Absolutely. Yeah. David, for folks who want to get more into your world or learn more about you, where can they find you? 

David [00:33:29] Yeah, the best place to find me is just on my website. The name of my firm is Turning Point, so the website is turningpointHQ.com. So HQ like abbreviation for headquarters, TurningpointHQ.com. I’ve got like a bunch of blogs, free resources and guides on there. And more information about what working with me one-on-one would look like. 

Linzy [00:33:46] Wonderful. Thank you so much. I really I really enjoyed this conversation today and I think our listeners are really going to appreciate it. 

David [00:33:51] This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:34:06] Feel like David was really speaking my language. In terms of just the value of being able to be with your money. Feel the feelings like let that happen and then come back to it and keep working on it. That emotional piece, as you mentioned, is unavoidable, right? Inevitably, we’re going to have emotions about our money. And I really loved his point that at the end of the day, humans are emotional. Like, why do we do the things that we do to have certain emotional experiences? Right. So that is part of our relationship with money. So being connected to that and noticing, okay, your money right now is giving you negative hard feelings, maybe. What are the emotions you want your money to give you and how can your money support you? And like, living those values that gives you certain emotional experiences is a very clarifying and grounding way to think about what our money can do for us. You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. If you want more from me and if you want some support from a free resource for me with the emotional part of money which David and I talked about today quite a bit, you can check out my free mini training, The Secret to Getting Unstuck in Your Finances. This is a mini course that supports you in being with your emotions around money, identifying what’s there for you, and looking at how to start to shift your emotional relationship to money. This is really the first step I find with being able to learn financial skills is work on the emotional piece. See what’s there. Start to shift your emotions around money. So that’s secret to getting unstuck in your finances money training. I will put the link to it in the show notes, but you can find it at workshops.Moneyskillsfortherapists.com/gettingunstuck. Or click on the link to show notes to get that getting unstuck in your finances mini training today. Thanks for listening.