[00:00:01] Let’s automate giving money to our future self. Instead of saying, well, I don’t have that money right now, actually you do, you’re giving it to your future self.

[00:00:10] James: I highly encourage, after we have a math equation, which I know some people don’t like doing, there are financial calculators out there that can help with that, but once you have that clear roadmap on what you’re trying to accomplish. You can automate as much as you can, have it taken from the top of the paycheck, You’d be surprised at how quickly that can build.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question, how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money, coach and creator of the course, money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is James Alexander. James is a certified financial planner. And today, James and I talk about the idea of playing your own game when it comes to money, kind of keeping your eyes on your own work, making sure that you’re setting yourself up financially for the life that you actually want.

[00:01:10] We talk about balancing emotions and math when it comes to money. As James says, there’s an equation, with all financial investments or decisions, but also as we know, people are highly emotional. So how do you balance the emotional components of money and the actual financial hard numbers to make good decisions? And we also chatted about kids and money. We have sons who are similar ages and we started chatting about what we want our sons to learn about money, how we’ve each so far tried to teach our sons about money and how money works. Here is my conversation with James Alexander. So James, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:00] James: Thank you so much for having me, Linzy. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

[00:02:02] Linzy: Yeah, me too. Me too. So for folks who are listening, can you tell us a little bit about you and what you do?

[00:02:08] James: Certainly, so I’m a financial advisor. I’m also what’s considered a certified financial planner. I love talking about all things money and how money can help people accomplish what they want to accomplish in their life. A little bit of brief background about myself. I’ve been doing this for 16 years. I actually didn’t want to get into the money field originally. I wanted to teach math. I know it is scary to a lot of people to think about math, all these numbers. It doesn’t mean a lot, right? But I landed on money because it’s a math equation. And when I saw what it can do for people, the purpose and how I can help people, educate them in the ways of money is how I landed on what I do, and I absolutely love it.

[00:02:45] Linzy: Because you’re taking those equations and they actually mean something in people’s lives when they can figure out that equation and I have found that over the last couple years, especially, I think I’ve developed that as a phrase in my own vocabulary, talking with students of like, there’s an equation there. For instance with group practice, when I’m working with people who have multiple employees, it’s like there’s an equation there of like how many employees times what you charged times what they get paid plus this, plus this equals a certain outcome. And like once we can figure out the equation, you know how to take action and make things happen.

[00:03:14] But if we’re working the wrong equation, we can work really hard and not see the things that we want to have happen. There is an equation there, but also it’s an equation involving humans who have a lot of feelings. We chatted a little bit, off mic before we got started about this idea of, you know, playing your own game with money. Doing things the way that you actually need to do them. Can you tell me more about this idea and how you use it with the folks that you support?

[00:03:38] James: Absolutely. Yes, I think this is one of the most powerful things to be in the know about, in today’s world and here’s why, is playing your own financial game, nobody else’s. I. What happens in today’s world, especially for you listening, is you might have this idea of, I’m supposed to be having this amount of money by this age of life, or I’m supposed to be having this house, or you know, I’m looking all around myself.

[00:03:59] And then you have the news headlines that come out about target numbers and volatile markets, and just you’re inundated with information and it just comes in all externally to you and you think to yourself, okay. How do I navigate this? I feel like I’m doing something wrong, right? And instead what I help my clients do is have ’em take a step back and say, ignore the outside world for a minute, and just focus internally and think in 10 years what’s the ideal life for you. In 15 years. In five years.And write it down. All of this, by the way, should be non-monetary to start, we will back into the monetary factors later.

[00:04:36] But talking through, be very clear. The analogy I use is, you know, you’re going on vacation. Let’s plan a trip. This is your trip for your future self, right? You’re going on vacation and you first need to decide where you’re going, right? If I’m going to Florida, I’m probably packing something different than if I’m going to Alaska. And so we have got to be clear on what we want and write it all down. Give a timeframe associated with it. Don’t be married to that timeframe, but have an idea and then we can back into, okay, what does it take to get there? So going on that trip, if I’m traveling to Florida, I need a car, I need a reliable car, I need, you know, to pack certain things.

[00:05:13] I need a navigation system.As opposed to Alaska, I’m probably getting on an airplane. That’s a different strategy, a different navigation. And so too many times we look in terms of not playing our own game, and we see our neighbor next door who has the fancy car and all the items, or we see they’re traveling or they’re, you know, their kids are wearing these things and we’re saying, oh gosh, I feel so behind.

[00:05:34] And I’m telling you from a financial advisor’s point of view, that is a recipe for frustration, and that’s a recipe for de-motivation and my goal is to help people get outta that mode and really focus on themselves, and especially those listening and therapists. You’re so great at giving back in this money world. It’s time to be selfish, and selfish in a good way, because when you have things you can have, you can help people in a much more profound manner.

[00:05:59] Linzy: Yeah. And I think that, that’s so accurate. This experience. I think that we have of all this information, this external output of like where you should be, and sometimes I have folks talk to me about the idea that they’re behind, like they’re behind on their retirement savings and,it may possibly be true for their goal, but if you don’t know what your goal is, it’s hard to be behind on it,but also that compare and despair. And like I recently had,I was going through a little thought exercise of like, what if I sold my house or maybe saved up a down payment for another house and I moved to another neighborhood that’s just across the street from us.[00:06:31] my son goes to. It’ll be a lot more money, but we’d be closer to this, but I started to think through it and I actually, I realized, James, I had this thought of like, actually, I feel like for my compare and despair parts of me that tend to compare to other people, I actually don’t want to be in that neighborhood because

[00:06:48]  It’s closer to the school and all the houses are that much nicer. The families are all like high income. So then what their kids are going to be doing is going to be things that cost a lot more money. It’s like, I realize that for myself, that’s actually going to pull me into kind of a, almost like a community where it’s like, I don’t want to actually want to even feel like I have to keep up with that community.

[00:07:06] Whereas the neighborhood I live in right now, is a real mixed neighborhood. Everybody’s kind of doing their own thing, which I think reminds you that there’s so many great ways to live life. There’s not one way to live life. and there’s something about getting out of a monoculture that reminds you: I could do anything. Like this family down the road from us has seven people living in that house of multiple generations and like they’re living this like, rich, interconnected family life that, I’m not going to see when I’m over across the way, but yeah, it was interesting for me to notice like, oh no, that is definitely going to like, potentially pull me into, almost like a lifestyle.I want to call it a one track, I dunno what to call it, like a rut, you know, where you get little boxed in. 

[00:07:41]That I think would actually pull me away from some of the things that I really enjoy about my life I wouldn’t want to change. So there was a little vulnerability that I noticed to myself. We’re all victims of these kinds of things, right? The, like, keeping up with the Joneses, the social media, I feel like is a real feeder for this kind of messaging.

[00:07:58] James: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, this is something I’m probably too passionate about, but what is the purpose of the news in social media? We think, especially if we’re watching financial elements in any capacity, whether it’s personal finance and budgeting and savings and investing, or business finance of how much, you know, my profitability of my firm should be, or any of those lines. The purpose of the news is to drive eyeballs, get us to watch tomorrow. That’s their agenda. Their not agenda is to actually obtain wealth, whatever we define wealth as in our world.And so how do they drive eyeballs? They create fear. They’ve learned over years. How do we create fear? I can’t tell you how many times the word recession has been talked about over the last, right.

[00:08:40] And we’re still technically not in one and it’s been two, three years it’s been discussed. So, I think we have to just take all this in context, and that’s why I always go back to what we want? Ignore all that for a minute and then we can go back to the outside world and see, okay, what can we do now and how do we take into account safety and all of that.

[00:08:57] Linzy: Yeah. Put it in context.

[00:08:58] James: I think the reason that’s so important is motivation. I’m probably preaching to the choir how motivation is so powerful. I mean, I have stories of clients where they run the math equation and they’re saying, okay, I have this much debt. It’s very cheap debt. I only pay 3% on my mortgage. I can invest and make more, but one of them can’t sleep at night knowing they have a mortgage. And it’s just, I owe somebody something. And so we have to reframe that and let’s actually get out of debt even though the math says otherwise, so that we feel better about it later. And so there’s that component.

[00:09:29] Linzy: And there’s a dance there I find between, you know, what are emotional aspects of our relationship to money that maybe we can shift and change, right? Like maybe ’cause I see like another potential intervention there to use therapist language would be, could the one partner start to actually shift how they feel about debt. Could it be okay to owe something? You know, like could that money be seen as a gift that allowed them to do this thing sooner than they would’ve been able to otherwise? And there could be gratitude there instead of a sense of being beholden or unsafe, right?

[00:09:55] Like there’s so much to explore in the emotional side of money. And then there’s also these hard numbers. And I think for each of us, it’s this individual dance of what we can like, maybe soften and shift in our own stories that aren’t helpful. ‘Cause for instance, like if you have a really emotional, maybe shame-based relationship or a fear-based relationship with debt, that’s going to make life hard. ‘Cause it’s pretty hard in this day and age to have no debt.

[00:10:18] You know, like my grandparents,they lived on my grandfather’s family farm, and they had no debt. And then when they moved into town in their sixties, they had to get a bridge mortgage, like some bridge financing, until the farm sold. A bridge loan. And I think my grandfather was so stressed about it ’cause like debt, having debt, that created like such a noise for him, but they grew up in a time and age where you could actually not have debt and owned property. For most of us now, debt is not something we can, you know, do without, right.

[00:10:50] Unless you are born into generational wealth and you know, your parents buy you a nice condo by, you know, the ocean. Most of us aren’t in that situation. So, yeah, I think too about, as we think about this math and feelings, and I have Friday episodes as you called, feelings and finances, you know, like speaking to this relationship, it’s like, what can we shift here and like, where is it that the numbers really are telling the truth? We should just follow the numbers. And I’m curious, like with your clients, have you seen examples of where people can change their emotional relationship with money and make a math decision or yeah. What does that bring up for you?

[00:11:24] James: Yeah, I can get very granular on math. I fully realize that it doesn’t resonate with too many people. And so, I have some very basic math equations, for lack a better word, or math mindsets to use is starting to, your example of debt is, I always say, look, to be in a good spot with debt in general, I really like to use the what I call 20 60 20 rule, which is if we can have our debt payments be no more than first 20% of our income, and not including mortgage, I want to be careful on that, That had to be incredibly tough if you could do that. More power to you, but these are things from our past. You can have that be 20% or less. You’re in a really good spot with debt. A really good aspect. The 60% is what I’m paying now for my life, and these are rough numbers, I don’t want people to be married to them. I always say be reasonable, not rational, which is again, seems a little counterintuitive to my linear mindset sometimes, but if we can earmark 20% towards our future self, whatever that might look like. We’re in a great spot, and so we look at, okay, student loans, right? Or, you know, I’m borrowing for the practice that I’m trying to obtain, or, you know, whatever the case may be. If that’s my 20% for my past, now I’m talking about my current reality that includes a mortgage, bills, things of that nature.

[00:12:42] And then I want to keep one other eye on my future self. If I can adhere to something in those lines, I’m in a good spot. So, you know, if people say, well, gosh, I’m way outta whack. Well, let’s talk about… This is what I find so fascinating about that current self is sometimes we have false notions of everyone’s doing this. The herd mentality. Everyone’s paying for cable. I need to have cable. But then you realize I watch like one hour of TV a day. If that, you know, like do I really need that? Versus, I care more about these items. When we look at budgeting especially, which I know is, I call it the big bed B word, because nobody likes doing it, right? But when we’re done after we kind of overcome that aspect, we feel empowered. Like, oh my gosh, I feel like I found money. You didn’t, you just feel like you did. So, anyways, that’s a nugget to help perhaps others.

[00:13:35] Linzy: Yeah, and the guidelines are helpful because it is helpful to have a starting place. For instance, the 20 60 20 rule. Like I’m doing my own math in my head and I’m like, okay. You know, in our case we’d be less here, but we’d probably be more there and then less there again. So it’s like, again, what are the actual numbers for us?

[00:13:52] You know, what are our priorities right now? What makes sense and I think there’s also seasons to this, too, right? Of being oriented to the season that you’re in. So I have a young child. He’s six now and I just did a couple days away on a solo strategic planning retreat for our business just to think. I just went away to think and not step on Lego for a few days of my life. And what I really grounded in when I was there is like, he’s only going to be a kid who wants to hang out with me for maybe another eight or nine years. So it’s like I’ve got this little window of time with him, right, to really be with him. But also I really sunk into the fact that like my parents are now in their early to mid-seventies, I probably only have 10 good years left with them. So like orienting to that. And as I think about our money and what we could do and like we could put money into like expanding our house and having more space. But if I think about that and then I compare it with like, maybe going to Europe with my parents… which, when I was a teenager, apparently at some point I told my dad that when I was older I would take him to Europe, and he has not forgotten this.

[00:14:53] My parents can also pay to go to Europe for themselves, by the way. But it was like this dream and now you know, we are at a place where we can do that. Again, now is the time to do that because in 10 years. You know, my parents probably won’t be up for going to Europe when they’re like 84 years old, but 74, they’re in great health. So I think about that, too. As we think about this conversation of like, what matters to you is also it’s going to shift in different seasons of your life and like coming into my fifties, I’ll probably be putting away more money than I am now because my son will be more independent. You know, I won’t be doing a big trip with my parents,but really being grounded in where you are today.

[00:15:29] James: I think that’s so well said. It’s funny you mention I have a son who’ll be six as well, and I think about that all the time is, you know, we can’t get time back. We can always make more money. We can’t make more time. Right. And so, and furthermore, life is not linear and that’s what makes it exciting, even though it can be nerve wracking.

[00:15:47] Linzy: Yeah, and, I think, yeah, the budgeting perspective, you know, in that thought myself, I was thinking about writing a book this year, and I’m very excited about the prospect of writing a book. and I was kind of almost trying to cram it into this year to be like, it’s important that I write a book. My colleagues are writing books. This person, this conference is writing a book and then I realized. No, just in terms of its budgeting, right? The decisions we make about our life, it’s also budgeting and if I have only so much time, right? And I have to think about using some of that time to make money to pay for our life, and then building up influence through the book, and I can’t have maybe all of these things, what am I going to prioritize?

[00:16:18] I’m going to prioritize time, and like just making enough to pay for our life. But I’m not going to like, spend all my time writing a book, which is a very absorbing process and then maybe have to go speak and do all these things to promote the  book because my son’s only six, and I want to be home. And that’s a budgeting decision. And it hurts to have to say goodbye to something to let something go for now. But as you said, too, it feels really good to be like, huh, I just found all this energy that I was going to give to this thing because my friends are doing it. That doesn’t actually make sense for me.

[00:16:47] James: You have got to, you got it. You know, when you talk about time, it makes me think about, I feel very blessed to work with people at all stages of life, but especially to your point, those that are older in their eighties or nineties, I feel like I learn more from them than they learn me.

[00:17:00] Linzy: I’m sure. Yeah.

[00:17:02] James: And they reflect back on their life when they’re in their forties and fifties and talk about regret, how powerful that is. I don’t hear any regrets of, “I wish I made more money.” I’ve never heard that from a single individual. I’ve heard I wish I spent more time with this person. I wish I stayed in touch with my colleagues from school. You know, all these things that are actually what mattered to them as they reflect back on this last chapter. And I think there’s something to be said there, and so I think if we, speaking back to money, if we use money as fuel and see it as just fuel and nothing more, otherwise, it’s a number on a screen. To accomplish what we want. That’s what we should leverage money for.

[00:17:38] Linzy: Yeah, say more about the analogy of money as a fuel, ’cause I often use the analogy of money as a tool, which, you know, rhymes. So they must be copacetic somehow. But yeah when you say money as fuel, tell me more about that image.

[00:17:50] James: Sure, yeah, so I’m a big analogy guys, so forgive me. but going back to that, traveling and getting from point A to point B and talking about goals and all of that is we can have the biggest goals in the world. If we don’t have fuel to put in our car to actually drive to go get there, we’re never going to get there.

[00:18:08] It’s just the aspect. Conversely, we can have all the fuel in the world if we don’t have the vehicle and the action items. We’re also not going to get there. It ties to what you’re saying really if it’s a tool and nothing more, but to me we need to put energy in money for what we’re actually trying to go after for a fulfilling life. Money allows us to do that, and I think we have to celebrate that, but we might not need a lot for our fulfillment. We might, we might not. It all depends on us. And we just have got to fuel that up according to what we need and want.

[00:18:42] Linzy: So. You know, I’m curious about, from your perspective, somebody who’s, you know, does financial education for people, and who also has a kid. This is a question I ask some of my students sometimes as they’re thinking about their relationship with money. What do you want your son to be learning about money? Like, what are the attitudes that you want him growing up with, or the skills that you’re thinking about for him even now when he’s like five years old?

[00:19:04] James: Gosh, we could spend a whole podcast on this. That’s a wonderful question, Linzy. So a couple of things, especially, so he’s five years old, so I’m going to tackle it out in stages. You know, there’s only so much a 5-year-old can retain, but he’s naturally curious. Anyway, one item is money that is not given to us. We do have to earn it. I want to make sure he understands that, and work for it, and all of that. It’s not just something that falls down from the sky. At the same time, we need to enjoy it. I have family members who have over-rotated to the future and they’re actually not enjoying their money, and there’s regret that falls in there.

[00:19:40] Linzy: Yes.

[00:19:42] James: But we also need to think about our tomorrow. I call it tomorrow instead of future, right? Think about our plans for our tomorrow-self. And so an example I used, this was actually pretty comical according to my wife, but he did a lemonade stand last year. We had garage sales and he made like a hundred dollars, this child. He was great at it, you know? And so he doesn’t really know much. It’s just these coins and dollar bills and whatnot. And I said, okay. So what I did is I carved it out into a couple of pieces. I said, all right, here’s half of it. We’re going to decide on what we want to spend this money on.

[00:20:19] And you can spend a lot of little things, or you can decide on one big thing. The idea is to enjoy it. And then the other half, we’re going to save it in here and every month that we keep it in here. I’m going to add to it. My son’s name is Theo, so I said I’m going to add to it. And so it’s that idea of delayed gratification that I’m trying to teach him. So he has the idea of, I earned it by doing this lemonade stand. I’m going to enjoy some of it, but I’m also going to let this thing grow. And so, we’ll see how it shakes out. He passed that test to start, but we’re early.

[00:20:51] Linzy: So are you’re adding interest to it, basically?

[00:20:54] James Yeah, I’m adding interest to it every month, for a month is like five years.

[00:20:57] Linzy: Yeah, I know, for them emotionally, so what is the interest rate in your house? I’m just curious.

[00:21:02] James: 5% is what I put on.

[00:21:03] Linzy: Solid. That’s, you know, that’s reliable. Yeah,I’m doing a similar thing with my son where I started giving him allowance.I have decided that at his age, what I really want him to learn is how to manage money and how to manage his emotional relationship with money.And I also at this moment adhere to the idea that he shouldn’t get paid to do things in our household because like your responsibility to your family and your home is not, you know, something to be compensated. So, so far he has not been entrepreneurial enough to set up a lemonade stand, but he gets $ 6 a week because he’s six years old. And this is what my mom did too, except for when I was a kid. You got the grade that you were in but, you know, inflation being what inflation is everything’s $5 more now. He has a piggy bank that has four compartments. I don’t know if you’ve seen these. They’re really cool. It’s a save, spend, invest and donate. So there’s the

[00:21:50] four compartments and I give him his allowance in small denominations. So we’re Canadians, so some loonies toonies quarters and then he gets to put $3 of that, about half in his wallet that I keep in my purse. So when we’re out and about, he’s always got his own money. and the rest we divide between the like, save, donate and invest, right? So I invested for him recently. He definitely is not tracking that yet to be like, I’m putting this money away for you and it’s going to grow,but donating, we’ve now been having to have a discussion about donating and like, where do you want to give your money? Like, you’ve got like $70 in here.

[00:22:23] You know, it’s been adding up for a few years ’cause I started when he was three. So until he finds a cause that I find that he’s passionate about, I’m just saving that until he’s really emotionally on board with like, “I want to give it to this”  So we’re, you know, talking about that. But then also what I found is that because he has his own wallet, he doesn’t have to ask me for things in the same way. Certain things, obviously, like a large Lego set takes him a while to save for, but he’s done that too. He bought like a $55 Batman Lego set with his own money.

[00:22:52] James: Good for him.

[00:22:53] Linzy: But also when we’re out, you know. If we go to a candy store or whatever, he’ll say, okay, how much is in my wallet? And I’ll say, okay, you have $8. And then he’ll go around and he will look at all his different options until he finds something that’s in his budget and he’s gotten really good at, like, if he’s got something  in his hand that he wants, but then he sees something he wants more, he’ll put something back to take something out. And it just makes me so happy. Like, I’m like, okay.

[00:23:16] James: He is that responsibility.

[00:23:17] Linzy: The responsibility and the ability to discern between what he actually wants, right? It’s like, I wanted this when I saw it, but now that I see this other option, I’ve decided I actually want that more. And so I’m going to make the decision to prioritize. Right? He’s learning how to prioritize his dollars and that there’s a boundary there. There’s a limit. ’cause like maybe a couple times I’ve topped him up by 25 cents, but really rarely. and now I also find he’s empowered. So if we go to stores, he doesn’t beg me for things, or he is not upset if he can’t get something. ’cause he knows that he actually now has a means to get that thing in the future if he doesn’t have the money now.

[00:23:53] James: So profound, and oh my gosh, that’s absolutely wonderful and I love the idea that you added that donate piece. To be brutally honest, we tried. It has not worked.

[00:24:01] Linzy: No. Well, ours, ours hasn’t worked either, which is why he still has $70 there.

[00:24:05] James: Yeah, right. It’s like the idea of giving it away.

[00:24:08] Linzy: Yeah, I know. He’s like, sorry, but, uh, that’s mine. But, you know, and that’s also part of his development. Like, he’s six now, and I see, you know, he’s developing more and more empathy. I’m seeing that growth in him,but it’s there and ready for when he decides like, I really care about this. So it’s also like I’m also being patient and waiting, you know, for when it’s going to be meaningful for him, when that lesson comes along. ‘Cause I think that a lesson’s not quite available yet, but it might become available in a month or two. And then he’ll be able to give a lot of money to a cause that he cares about.

[00:24:35] James: I think there are parallels to what you just said in that example of him putting back one toy and taking, you know, the one that’s more important, self realizing. You extrapolate that to adulthood of, you know, we’re just so ingrained, I’m supposed to be getting this every single time. I don’t even think about it and not realizing I actually need that.

[00:24:53] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:24:54] James: Right, versus something I want, that’s more powerful for myself. 

[00:24:57] Linzy: Yeah. And I think, you know, I talk a lot with my students about slowing down and being with, you know, like actually slowing down in a decision. Is this still what I want? And of course, now too, so many things that we pay for are on automated subscriptions, so you actually have to choose to not want it rather than choosing to want it. So there’s lots of ways that different industries have taken advantage of this vulnerability in our human psychology, to go along with what we’ve already been doing. It’s harder to stop it, but yeah, it’s a valuable skill that I see lots of adults that I know and myself too, still working on this skill in different facets of my life and so, yeah, that’s something I would encourage, folks listening to think about too, is if you have kids, especially if you didn’t get a direct financial education from your parents, which most of us didn’t.

[00:25:39] What do you actually want your kids to learn? And it can be just like you and I are talking about James, like these small things that we do to help to instill what money means to kids and also teach them the skills to actually manage the money. Like how do you actually manage money? It’s by learning how to put one thing back and only take, you know, the other thing instead ’cause you don’t have money for both. So powerful, mix there of feelings and math. So I’m curious, James, for folks who are listening, if they’re finding themself kind of overwhelmed by the prospect of planning their financial future… ‘Cause I know for some people, all these feelings you talked about earlier, that kind of feeling. Like they’re behind or like this person has this and they don’t. Where do I start? Yeah, where would you suggest that they start if they’re starting to think like, okay, I need to put a bigger plan in place for myself.

[00:26:25] James: Yeah, yeah, so, that income piece is obviously the biggest driver of being able to accomplish this, right? So you take your income, you know, after you go through these non-monetary goals and what do I want, like we talked about earlier, but I go back I say, okay, where are we at today?

[00:26:39] And this is often where shame comes in, unfortunately. To your point, this isn’t taught in schools. This isn’t part of a curriculum. We should not feel bad about having poor money habits and all that. So we have to eliminate that brain, and I’m going to let therapists do their thing because they’re much better at that than myself, and helping hopefully alleviate that mindset, but when you look at the strict practicality of it, all right, here’s where I’m at today. Here’s where I want to be for myself both today and tomorrow. Where are the gaps? A clear example is I want to, you know, have the option, maybe not the requirement to get out of my practice and be done by 60 and transition to somebody else and sell it.

[00:27:19] And what have you. In my sixties, I want to be doing these things in my seventies, I want to be doing these things. We don’t want to be married to those, but we want to have a gauge. And so, now, I’m 48 years old. I’ve got roughly 12 years to go on that. What do I need to sock away today to be able to build up that nest egg for when I’m 60?

[00:27:40] And so you talked about automating. Now you know how these companies are so good at automating, taking money from us. Let’s automate giving money to our future self. Instead of saying, well, I don’t have that money right now… Actually you do, you’re giving it to your future self. Reframe that mind. And so, I highly encourage after we have a math equation, which I know some people don’t like doing, there are financial calculators out there that can help with that. There are advisors obviously that can walk you through that. But once you have that clear roadmap on what you’re trying to accomplish,

[00:28:13] you can automate as much as you can, have it taken from the top of the paycheck, top of what you’re getting before all the rest are taken out. Set and forget it. You’d be surprised at how quickly that can build and then for today, for the budgeting aspect, is just taking that hardcore look and saying, okay, where’s my money going? Do I want to go there? Why is it important to me? Why is it not? And reallocating that, and just kind of going through that. If there’s a shortfall, you know, okay, what can we do about that shortfall? What compromises should I make to your son’s example? You know, I have got to put that back. I want it, but I can’t have both. And just being at peace with that too, I think is important.

[00:28:51] Linzy: I think it’s an ongoing process too, right? Like that budget conversation. Like even as we’re talking now about subscriptions, I’m thinking, oh yeah, I have that subscription that I should probably cancel ’cause it’s going to auto-renew at some point. You know, like we constantly, I think we have to be just spending time with and reassessing, okay, is this actually important to me still? I thought that I’d really like this thing. Do I even really like it? Do I want to keep investing in x, y, z? There’s a continued conversation there about the money and where it would serve you best.

[00:29:17] James: That’s right., And, you know, I want to hit on one topic, especially given the timing of probably when this will come out is, you know, there’s some concerns about if I invest, quote unquote invest in my future self, I have got to do it in things like that. And those are risky and volatile, and when’s the right time to get in and everything else. The short answer is consistent contributions always wins. But especially now when things are dicey, to say t ae least, there’s a common misconception that we have psychologically of I’m doing something wrong, if I put in money and all of a sudden it buys something and then it goes down of like, this is a problem, I need to fix it.

[00:29:55] That is the cost of admission for long-term growth is volatility. If we reframe our mindset with investing as:  I’m putting money in and it’s going to go up and down and everywhere in between, but over time it will pay off and I’m going to educate myself as to why. This is the cost of doing business in the market. Hopefully that helps those listening. You know, we’ve been through times like these before. 2008, 2009, I read headlines that said, you know, the economy was going to collapse and America as we know it would cease to exist entirely.

[00:30:26] Linzy: Right. Sink into the ocean.

[00:30:29] James: Exactly. Fear sells. Remember that.

[00:30:35] Linzy: But yeah, it’s, what I’m hearing is like steady just be steady. There’s going to be noise. And as you mentioned earlier, those news sources benefit from, you know, fear and other emotions like anger and outrage, you know, that fuels clicks and reads of their articles. So yeah, staying steady and continuing with your plan, whatever your plan is in terms of investing.

[00:30:55] James: It will always win. If it doesn’t win, we’re worried about clean water, you know? We’re not worried about our money, so…

[00:31:02] Linzy: Well, James, thank you so much for joining me today. For folks who are interested in what you do, who want to learn more about you, where can they find you?

[00:31:10] James: Oh, certainly. Yeah, so our company, I should start off with, they’re called Edge Financial Advisors. The website is EdgeFA.com. F as in Frank, A as in apple.com. Those that want to educate themself a little bit more, we have a podcast called Ed’s Edge. It’s a tongue twister. We talk about all these topics and ways you can improve your financial knowledge. So I appreciate the question.

[00:31:31] Linzy: Thanks so much for joining me today, James.

[00:31:32] James: Thank you again. It was a pleasure.

[00:31:42] Linzy: I really appreciated James’ emphasis on the mathematical, you know, equation side of money and the emotional side of money. You know, when we neglect the emotional side of money, as we all know, as therapists, usually money just doesn’t work, right? If you have so much shame and overwhelm around money, or as he talked about his example, so much weight and anxiety around having debt, the fact that on paper it makes sense to keep that debt still doesn’t bear out in your lived experience of it, right?

[00:32:13] So we need to balance what makes sense on paper. If we do X, Y, Z it will equal this, and this is what we want. You know, whether it’s this much money for retirement or this much that’ll be available to save for goals. There’s a gap sometimes between what the math tells us and what our actual emotional experience of that is, and then there’s a lot of opportunity there to start to figure out how to bring those things together. Same with those guidelines on, you know, he mentioned the 20 60 20 rule, you know, so putting 20% of your household income towards historical debts, excluding mortgage, 60% towards living your life, another 20% towards the future.

[00:32:50] That’s a good guideline. It’s a good starting place, but then we’re going to have to look at our own pictures, our own emotional relationship to these different pieces and we might choose to do it differently, right? But there’s a difference between making a choice and actually sitting with the numbers and sitting with our emotions and deciding the best plan for us.

[00:33:08] There’s a difference between that, and ignoring these things. So I really appreciate James bringing his perspective and his experience as a certified financial planner to the podcast today. If you are interested in learning more about him or working with him, you can check out the link in the podcast show notes.If you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s a big help if you can leave us a review, you can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you just click on the link in the show notes to leave a review, our Fancy Dancey little app shortcut thing, it will take you to exactly which podcast tool you use on your device.

[00:33:47] So reviews are super helpful. They allow people to find us. And if you are interested in working with me and getting help in making money work for you, I have my two courses. Money Skills for therapists is for solo practitioners. Money skills for group practice owners is for group practice owners.And you can learn more about those courses by going to our website, moneynutsandbolts.com and clicking on courses in the top menu. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:01] Matt: When we think about a lot of therapist dynamics, yes, now we’re seeing clinics and franchises and these virtual companies and what have you, but the majority of therapists historically have either part-time worked in a clinic or worked on their own and things of that nature. And so there’s associations and such, but there’s not really that community of therapists where you’re able to use that broad voice to say, these are our demands in set terms, and actually ensure that you can help yourselves in that way.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:52] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s podcast guest is Matt Cohen. Matt is the founder of Playspace, which is a tool that helps therapists use play therapy online with their clients. Matt is coming to us today with a perspective we don’t usually get on this podcast, which is the perspective very much of somebody like in the business startup space, right?

[00:01:17] We are aware as therapists of, you know, startups coming into our world, some big tech money came into our scene, especially around COVID. And so now we have these large companies around that, employ therapists or are offering different services and tools to therapists in different ways.

[00:01:34] There’s a lot to that. There’s a lot there, and today Matt and I talk about his perspective on therapists, like what we don’t understand about our position, like the power that we hold as therapists,

[00:01:47] the fact that there’s so much demand for therapy and not enough supply, puts us into a position where we can be really setting the terms of how things are happening, but we’re not really doing that. So we talk about that today. We talk about what these large companies were looking for when they came into our space, what they’re still looking for, what is starting to not work about some of these business models.

[00:02:08] And we talk about different silos in the health sector. This is very much a businessy chat today about therapists. This is great insight into how folks coming into our space, who live in the world of startups and MBAs, and they live and breathe business… Matt gives some great insights into what those folks are seeing when they look at the therapist space and what they’re looking for and hoping for in the therapist space.

[00:02:32] And then what we as therapists can start to do to hold our power and hold our ground, and make our careers and the services that we offer really align with how we want the world to be. Here is my conversation with Matt Cohen.

[00:02:58] Linzy: So, Matt, welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:01] Matt: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:03:02] Linzy: Yeah. I am excited to have you here. In a way I almost feel like you’re like a visitor coming from somewhere else into our space in terms of the knowledge that you’re bringing today. ‘Cause it’s not often on the podcast that we talk to somebody who just has a completely different training and professional experience.

[00:03:18] Most of the folks that I speak to are, you know, therapists themselves or very therapy adjacent and you’ve moved into the therapist space, but you have all this knowledge that we do not have as therapists. So excited to bring you here. Can you tell folks who are listening more about yourself and what you do?

[00:03:33] Matt: Yeah, so, I am not a therapist, as you said, and I just want to say that from the outset, I have a business and finance background, but I say that because I have a lot of lived experience. I’m neurodivergent, I have a number of severe conditions like bipolar disorder, and so I always say that mental health for me is not cured. It’s managed. And so I’ve always been quite passionate about this space because when I was younger, I used to say it was a luxury to destigmatize it. As I got older and people became more aware, I realized the truth in that statement.

[00:04:05] While I say that in this context, I don’t promote that message, but I say that ’cause my therapist of 20 years came to me in Covid and said, you know, Matt, we do Zoom. Now you sit on your couch no problem. But when you came in 20 years ago, you crossed your arms and went and talked to me as a kid,

[00:04:20] and it was board games and art and things like that that allowed us to build rapport, and is there anything out there I can use because I can’t do it on Zoom? And I looked around, I spoke to companies that could, at the time, easily do it, and I was getting a lot of sort of cold reception. And kids don’t make their own care decisions.

[00:04:39] It’s a niche. Play: why is that needed? And what was interesting for me is for all that we’re doing in the space and building these care continuums and innovation, what the therapists actually need and rely on to be effective was not being considered ’cause no one’s in the session seeing that and so there was a bit of a gap there. And that’s why Play space was invented. 

[00:05:01] So Playspace Health is a company that builds software for therapists that work with children, adolescents, and neurodivergent adults to support them with engagement, to build content, and allow care to be more accessible  because it’s quite inequitable today.

[00:05:15] Linzy: Yes, and that’s such a great point about identifying what therapists actually need and are actually asking for ’cause I think so often innovations that come to us come from somebody outside who’s like, you need this, and you’re like, ah, it’s kind of what I need, but it’s not really what I need.

[00:05:29] So what I’m hearing is you solved a problem that was very directly brought to you by your own therapist, which is, how do I engage people in this online space without just us staring at each other? ‘Cause yeah, as you say, those in-person elements of therapy, especially obviously with kids who are dynamic, I think about my own son who goes to an occupational therapist, right?

[00:05:49] So occupational therapists are very physical. We’re taking him there with a suspicion that he probably has ADHD not diagnosed, but if he doesn’t, it would be bizarre in our family, frankly. When I watch him in that space with a therapist, he’s so physically engaged, right? He’s bouncing off the walls and he’s going from this activity to that activity, which actually he doesn’t do in a lot of other environments where that’s not possible.

[00:06:10] And so what I’m hearing you’ve come up with is a way for that to become more possible in the online space for kids who are sitting at the computer, not to just be staring at their therapist, but actually have like creative ways to be together with their therapist, which is essential for working with kids.

[00:06:25] Matt: Yeah, very much so. And I’ll say it’s both for virtual, but what was interesting early on in the company was we started hearing that, for example, our virtual sand tray was actually starting to be used in person because at the time germs were a big deal and sand trays are disgusting. And so there’s that.

[00:06:44] But then, too, kids are used to iPads, right? Kids are used to playing and using technology, and so we have to find ways to bring that in and in some cases make it better. And you know, I use the example of mouse trap, ’cause I don’t know if you remember how long that takes to set up, but now kids don’t have the patience for that.

[00:07:00] So it is both environments but to your point to just start, that was important in that we’re solving a problem that therapists actually have, not trying to capitalize on an opportunity that we believe exists. And I think that’s where the gap is ’cause in health it attracts so many people because it’s, there’s so much opportunity and it’s so big, but yet there’s sometimes the gap between where we want to go, and where we’re starting from, and how we need to get there and so that disconnect is really what we sort of wanted to avoid.

[00:07:36] And really starting with understanding where therapists are today. And the reason I bring that up in the in-person side is because after Covid, while most therapists stayed online, and today 55% of sessions are actually done online,

[00:07:51] for children 90% of sessions went back to in-person and it’s ’cause they didn’t have the tools. And so we’ve almost reinforced this perception that it can’t be possible or we believe that there’s virtual happening, and it’s all accessible and it’s changed when in reality they are in person today. So when it snows, or when someone’s sick, or when you have to go on vacation, that’s not the time to learn a new tool.

[00:08:18] So if we meet them where they are today in person, then it creates that continuity and familiarity that I think will allow us to be successful over time by meeting them on the evolution or adoption curve where they are today.

[00:08:30] Linzy: Yeah, and just to you know, bring that into thinking in therapist speak, if we’re talking about the evolution and adoption curve, we’re talking about, you know, it takes a while for us to get used to something, and you and I chatted about this when we chatted once before, is therapists,

[00:08:44] we’re not super fast to adopt. We’re probably not the first people to buy a new type of technology. Like I will say for myself personally, when there’s a new technology that comes out, if it’s some sort of AI, or a new phone or whatever, I just wait and watch other people use it, right?

[00:08:59] Like I’m not an early adopter kind of human. I’m like, I’m going to let other people work that out. I’m going to see how it goes for them. Then I might think about trying it myself. And so I find with many therapists, we don’t tend to be fast movers. We’re not the first to jump on something, but once we decide to do something, we’re usually quite committed to it and we stick with it, right?

[00:09:19] Matt: Yeah, and I’d say that’s true for all really in the health space, but what’s interesting about it and why I think that exists is because, and this is sort of again, where there’s sometimes a disconnect. You know, therapists go to school, they get real training and they know what they’re doing.In any role, let’s say you are in business development or

[00:09:37] sales in a company, you’re willing to try different things all the time because you’re maybe in a new role, maybe selling a new product, maybe trying to do something more innovative. Whereas in health, you’re following what the research says and that doesn’t change by the day,

[00:09:52] and your training is much more robust. And so you feel comfortable following your training and if you’re going to do something, it’s because you have a real strong belief that is worth potentially employing long term in your practice rather than every day when I see something new, I’m going to try new things and, you know, run fast and break things as they sometimes startups.

[00:10:15] Linzy: Running fast and breaking things in the mental health space is not good. It’s actually our ethical obligation to not break things. So yeah, that’s an excellent point. I think about the training that we have that makes us more rigorous and thoughtful about what we’re doing and why.

[00:10:28] And so I think that’s an excellent distinction between maybe the orientation of people in health, you know, the actual providers, therapists and practitioners and doctors too. There’s a different orientation there, as you say, compared to like a sales person or marketing or I’ve got this great idea, let’s go.

[00:10:44] but these worlds are kind of colliding now, you know, as we see more startups and more venture capital coming into the therapist space. So I would love to hear your perspective as somebody who’s very much from the business space, but has a deep personal appreciation of therapy. What do you see happening in the landscape right now? How would you describe what’s happening with all of this big money coming into the therapy space?

[00:11:09] Matt: Yeah, so just to give some context even to what exists now in that vein, I think it’s important to just give a little bit of context on how we’ve gotten here over the past few years and I say that because. Prior to, let’s call it twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, mental health was not in vogue. It wasn’t being talked about in the same way that it was today.

[00:11:30] And we’ve seen an incredible change where now we are talking about it, people are more aware and that’s created business opportunities. And so I was actually part of the founding team of the first digitally native mental health product in Canada, which used a therapist to connect with an individual with asynchronous messaging or you know, not live messaging.

[00:11:50] And then had content and it was CBT, based care, they called it T-I-C-B-T Therapist Assisted internet delivered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. And so I say that ’cause that was the first, and so what’s happened is between 2016 and 2015, and now, you know, we’re talking 10 years. That’s not a long time in health, which collectively moves slowly.

[00:12:13] And it has to, for safety. And so what’s happened is that between, let’s call it 2015 and then into Covid, everything was just about the opportunity of itAnd in Covid, now all of a sudden it wasn’t just, oh, technology can help this. Now technology is the only way that you can do this. You know, potentially it depends on, you know, what was happening. And so that was sort of the peak and then covid was, I’m using air quotes here. is was

[00:12:43] over, so to speak, or the peak of it passed, and then reality set in. And yes, a lot of therapists continued with Zoom, but for example, pediatric therapists largely went back in person, you know, even if they were using Zoom as part of their practice, they weren’t using all the other piece of technology that you would have to use to really move the needle and make it worthwhile for a lot of companies. And so from aventure capital, which is, you know, where you’re investing in these early stage companies, you are betting on that velocity. And so all these people just looked at the upside and then sort of the bubble burst and valuations came down. And so you have all these venture capitalists and that are now nervous to invest and have a lot of money in companies that they don’t know how to get that money out of because they invested their money,

[00:13:34] let’s say at a valuation of the company, let’s just call it a billion dollars, and then immediately after Covid, they don’t know how they’re going to make it worth a hundred million dollars or whatever it might be.

[00:13:46] And so that’s where we’ve gotten to today, which is there’s still a lot of bets being placed, but what’s happened is that people that are making some of these big bets from the investment side are using their singular context or their limited context to and think, oh, well maybe it was just this thing or that thing not really understanding that there were some real fundamental problems with these business models that are largely being continued

[00:14:16] in these new companies that they didn’t necessarily diagnose as the root of those problems. And so we’re seeing it happen again, and this is where the whiplash comes in for therapists that are parts of these organizations, and I’ll just pause there, but I think that’s, you know, that change, that cycle, like therapists are essentially becoming sort of Guinea pigs in these models,

[00:14:36] and that’s part of the problem and what’s happening is that there hasn’t been a historically scalable and sustainable way that not only engages therapists appropriately and you know, serves the patients truly in a way that delivers outcomes, but also then is able to deliver investor returns in an appropriate, truly ethical and impactful way.

[00:15:00] Linzy: Yeah, ’cause what I’m hearing is a lot of these companies and just to kind of describe the kind of companies we’re talking about. These would be like online platforms, where therapists can, you know, be matched with clients, easily because these platforms have large advertising budgets and you know, you might hear them mentioned on every podcast you listen to.

[00:15:19] That’s the kind of company we’re talking about. So people came in with millions of dollars, they expected those to turn into billions of dollars. ’cause they expected this trajectory of this is the new way. ‘Cause with Covid it was, as you say, the only way, it was the only way that we could get that support in Covid,but things are changing back to normal. So to speak nowit’s been an experiment is what I’m hearing. Partially like it was an experiment that seemed like a super good idea. Some people saw their fortunes, you know, being made from this experiment ’cause obviously, this was the new way that therapy was going to be done.

[00:15:51] But more and more we’re seeing that it’s not actually the only way that people want to receive therapy. Like there is a demand and an interest for in-person coming back. I’m seeing that, like you mentioned, 55% of sessions are happening online, still, but that also means 45% are not happening online and I’m hearing and starting to see this in, for instance, with the group practice owners that I work with where like people who are online are getting harder to fill now because clients want to see people in person again now that they can. So like again, it’s a slow shift back, you know, like the peak of Covid was a couple years ago now,

[00:16:25] but now more and more when people want to see a therapist, they would like to sit in the same room as them and they would like to go to their office. So yeah, there’s this bubble burst that’s happening. But what I think I’m hearing from you is that these companies still haven’t necessarily caught up with that reality. Like they’re still based on some of these assumptions that this is workable.

[00:16:45] Matt: I think it’s not only about the in-person and not, I think… It’s about the fact that… That’s one of the examples, but let’s take another one. There’s been some incredible companies, some of which are still very large and doing great work and are doing well today, but there was this massive idea of, okay, well most therapists in this, if we go back to, you know, years ago, but I’ll use just children today because it’s actually a perfect example about in-network providers, Most therapists in 2016 were not in network full stop. And so what’s happened is that let’s take children for example. Only one in 10 therapists that work with children are in network. So if you are a venture capitalist and or you’re an entrepreneur or business person and you’re like, oh, what’s a big opportunity that can be quote unquote solved.

[00:17:32] It’s you want something that’s intense wise that’s, you know, about a big opportunity. You have the perfect solution that’s going to be the panacea of the future and what ends up happening is great. Yeah, 90% of therapists are not in network, so there’s a massive opportunity to build a company, to bring them in network, but the real question is it because. Truly it was just the administrative burden of being in the network, or is it also the payouts?

[00:17:59] Are there many other things that need to be considered? And so what happens is, and we’re seeing this now with a lot of the pay cuts and some of the challenges people are having, it’s, you can bring them all in network, but if you don’t have a model financially to support them and to scale them and really empower them in this model, then

[00:18:15] they’re not going to stay and they’re not going to tell their friends and colleagues and others to participate. And that is not scalable or sustainable. And so you might get some that are willing to do it in a certain extent, but you don’t go to school this time and put all this work to make pennies and give it all to someone else.

[00:18:34] Linzy: No.

[00:18:34] Matt: Or work in a model that is just not conducive in general. And I think these companies fall in love with their solutions or the opportunity more than necessarily the root problems that exist in it because they know they can’t change those ones. And it’s just a misguided sort of approach to it. And I’m not saying there again, there haven’t been some that have done it well.

[00:18:55] But again, there’s going to be that challenge on an ongoing basis ’cause now they’re dependent on, let’s call it insurance companies or payers or regulators that are out of their control. And any minute can undermine their business model. And what are they doing to ensure they’re going to protect therapists and provide an alternative if should that happen.

[00:19:14] There’s no answer to that. And so again, it’s this idea that it’s big opportunities that they look at, but then we’re not solving the root problems that actually make those big opportunities sustainable over time.

[00:19:27] And then once you’ve reached that sort of that high, and you reached a sort of critical mass or threshold that you know is growing, it becomes diminishing returns and you struggle because there’s way more demand for therapy than there are supply of therapists and there’s not enough therapists full stop and so when your business is predicated on, let’s call it owning or managing therapist capacity, and that’s the scarcity, that’s a very challenging model regardless of the rest of the context.

[00:20:02] Linzy: Yeah, And I so appreciate you bringing that up. Because I was talking about kind of the, maybe the demand side of the equation, right? Which is people aren’t looking for online therapy so much anymore. They want to go in person, but you’re talking here about the supply sides or like the work conditions basically of therapists.

[00:20:15] There’s a reason that therapists were choosing not to be in the network, for American therapists who have that big choice to always make: do I go on insurance, do I not go on insurance? You know, in network, not in network. There are reasons that people were not in network that was not just as you say, because the paperwork, as you mentioned, like therapists pay so much for our education, right.

[00:20:34] And I’ll say that that’s not the case in a lot of Canadian contexts. So, you know, myself being Canadian, I didn’t actually pay a lot for my education, but I work with American therapists who have $200,000 of debt in order to get where they are. Therapists don’t take on all that debt and then feel satisfied making $40 an hour.

[00:20:52] That’s just like bad math. The math doesn’t work for them. But, yeah, if companies don’t recognize or understand that, there’s a problem there, but I also loved what you mentioned there, and you’ve mentioned this to me before in, in our conversations, is. There is so much demand for therapy and so little supply, like there are not enough therapists for all the folks out there who would love to get good therapy. And like, I think in many kinds of industries, if that was the case, I think there would be maybe like there’s more empowerment, excitement, recognition of that. We don’t feel like that as therapists.

[00:21:30] Matt: I mean, Economics 101. when there’s more demand for a good, then there is supply of that good. Then supply is the term setter, and so if we’re looking at economics, if there’s way more demand, there is supply, then you increase the price because now that balances it out hypothetically.

[00:21:49] You know, if there’s an abundance of something, then you can make it more affordable, but when there’s not, it’s then a scarcity, and therefore there’s a premium to it. But the problem is that. You have to then be a term setter in that.

[00:22:01] And I think what’s happened in therapy, and this is why I brought up the context earlier, is that It has not been a mature industry. It’s still in its early innings, and it doesn’t mean the practice and profession is immature. It means the business side, the industry of it, like the corporate side of it that is not there. And so when When we think about a lot of therapist dynamics,

[00:22:25] yes, now we’re seeing clinics and franchises and these virtual companies and what have you. But the majority of therapists historically have either worked part-time in a clinic or worked on their own and things of that nature. And so there’s associations and such, but there’s not really that community of therapists where you’re able to use that broad voice to say, these are our demands in set terms, and actually ensure that, you know, you can help yourselves in that way. And I think that’s what’s made it vulnerable because now it’s made it that now all these companies can come in,

[00:22:59] they can get people to be part of their group, set whatever terms that they want, and then hope that’s going to get them where they want to go. And when it doesn’t, I mean now you need to start changing how you pay therapists or cutting the therapists you have, or making it not conducive to therapists.

[00:23:14] And while, as you said, if you’re trying to be in the network, I can acquire the patients, I could do your finances, I can do your admin, we can do your count. We could do everything for you, but if the last sentence of this is you make $35 an hour, well then that undermines everything else that I just fell in love with that you said, and I think that has never been solved for. And so, that’s, where we have to change the 

[00:23:37] dynamic here because any of these companies that are not thinking about the therapists, putting them first and really building for them, they’re inherently not scalable. When you take advantage, you are not creating an advantage. You’re creating a temporary opportunity that if you can get out in great, maybe you can make a return for your investors, but you’re not going to have any sustainability if you’re taking advantage there.

[00:24:02] Linzy: Yes, yeah, and I mean, there’s a few things that come to mind for me here as we think about what we’re hearing, what you’re saying is that therapists, we are in the position where we could be, as you say, the term setters. We have this incredible service to offer that folks want and need.

[00:24:17] There’s more folks needing the service than the services available. There’s just not enough therapists to meet it. So being the term setter, you know, if I think about private practice could be like, you can set the fee that you actually need to earn, right? There is enough demand out there that if you set the fee, as long as you, you know, market effectively and people understand what you do and who you’re there to serve, you know, there is enough demand that can be met

[00:24:39] but there’s so much that gets in the way for therapists. As I’m thinking about it, I’m like, so why don’t we just do that? So many reasons. First of all, I don’t think we really recognize that we are professionals, in the way that a doctor would recognize that they’re a professional. I think there’s something about the fact that, and we’re talking about mental health therapy here too, but I think it also does apply to some of the other kinds of manual practitioners, too.

[00:24:59] There is a lack of reverence that we have for what we do ’cause often we’re so naturally good at it that we don’t realize that no, it’s really special. Like many people can’t and would never be able to do that. They could study for a hundred years and they won’t be able to do what you do

[00:25:12] because it’s a combination of natural gifts plus education that allows you to do it. But I also, I just came back from a conference in Orlando, Florida, the American Counseling Association Conference, and we had so many grad school students come into our booth. You know, they’re going to be therapists in a few years.

[00:25:28] They have to go through the licensure process, which is a whole other story of you know, they just need to work for free for a thousand hours before they’re allowed to, you know, make money. But they were saying to us, they’re not allowed to talk about money in grad school. If they bring it up, their professors say, that’s not why you’re here.

[00:25:43] There’s kind of this dismissive hand wave. I had another person come to the booth like, share this phrase, which is about the outcome, not the income. It makes my blood boil because here we are. We’ve sunk so much money into education in so many cases. So talented people have this thing that’s in super high demand and yet we are actively being shamed into not even thinking that we deserve to make, like sometimes, Matt, I’m serious, like a middle class income. Folks have to wrap their mind around the fact that maybe they deserve to make a middle class income

[00:26:13] and that I think is systemic and structural. In our industry, like our industry is cutting us off at the knees by telling us we’re not supposed to earn money. And then you have all these other folks and they look at our industry and they see nothing but dollar signs. ’cause they’re like, look at all the demand.

[00:26:28] Matt: I think that’s exactly right, is that there’s we talk about schooling and even you mentioned, what you pay for school, but it’s not only the paying for school, it’s the time and the extra time you’re putting into school and the opportunity cost, which is what you could otherwise be doing during that time. And so say, let’s take myself, I have an undergraduate degree. I don’t have a master’s.

[00:26:47] I don’t have a PhD. I don’t have anything like that, but what I’m going to tell now, people with PhDs who have been in school for so long, how should they practice? Never. That doesn’t even make sense. But if I have a good idea, I can talk about ebitda. A RR, and I can keep throwing out terms that are just, you know, random letters like that gives almost me some credibility

[00:27:11] with people who then have the money to invest and that’s a big problem. And I’d say the other thing is, again, going back to the context of this, prior to 16, mental health was not spoken of in the same way, and even now when we talk about mental health, we talk about mental health and physical health.

[00:27:25] We don’t talk about leg health, we don’t talk about heart health. We talk about mental health and physical health and as if those are separate things. And don’t get me wrong, they are, but everything in health is a separate thing. Health is a collection of markets and services and cases and causes. So I think just even just the broader sort of sentiment around it being a separate sort of health function or, you know, I think that feeds into all of this.

[00:27:55] Linzy: Yeah, for sure, and actually, you know that sparks another thought that I was having earlier, too. We are so siloed even within the silo, right? So let’s say mental health is a silo ’cause really we know that, you know, health is a combination of all these systems that result in like ultimate, like you’re doing well or you’re not

[00:28:12] because of all of these different things together. Within mental health, we have all these silos and we’re told that there’s something distinctly different between whether you’re a marriage and family therapist or a counselor or a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. Like we are actually taught that those things have real distinction and difference.

[00:28:34] And if I am a counselor. I’m taught to think certain ways about social workers and social workers are taught to think certain ways about psychotherapists. And it’s such bullshit and we do it to ourselves. I don’t know if it’s even being done to us. I think it’s very much like a kind of you know, I think about this a lot.

[00:28:50] Canadian politics. The left is very good at fighting with ourselves. We break up into eight or 10 small groups, the right, much more strategic. They’re like, nah, I don’t agree with everything, but let’s stick together. There’s so much power in sticking together and being a cohesive group and we are so splintered. That kind of bargaining power that we would have, that ability to set the terms as a larger profession right now feels really far away.

[00:29:13] And I am happy you said that because I remember even, again, going back to, let’s call it, you know, 2015, in different geographies, whether Canada, the UK, Australia, United States, they had,they’ve all done this at different times, but psychotherapist as a term. if you were a psychotherapist and not a social worker, let’s say, or a PhD, like insurance wouldn’t even accept that.

[00:29:36] Matt: And there were many psychologist associations that were preventing psychotherapist associations and or regulatory bodies from becoming that to almost to defend their territory when the reality of that is they’re holding back the industry.

[00:29:52] And this is where even when we think about companies and why I approach it slightly differently than a lot of these companies, a lot of these companies, it’s about, you know, we need to win.

[00:30:03] When I look at this market as something so early that we need to get to where it needs to go. And so at some point, a rising tide floats all boats. And so rather than having that infighting where you’re actually not going to get anywhere, ’cause we can’t graduate enough PhDs to treat everyone.

[00:30:21] And so if it was only PhDs right now that we’re delivering mental health, then anyone that would be afraid of a chatbot taking over would have a very valid, you know, concern because that would have to be the case.

[00:30:32] Linzy: Totally.

[00:30:33] Matt: But the point is, if we don’t make it such that we create situations that are not tenable and not sustainable, and that are creating the opportunity and creating leverage. And it’s all about leverage. You know, there’s power in numbers, there’s power in that and there’s power in the opportunity. And who best to realize that opportunity and so anyways, that’s what needs to start happening. But that’s an interesting thing just within the psychotherapist term because there’s a lot of silos and I’d say that’s healthcare.

[00:31:03] Linzy: Yes.

[00:31:04] Matt: Before Covid, you could not even practice over state lines, right? You had to be in the state, you had to be in the province, you had to be in the geography, and it’s creating limitations almost to protect yourself, but then at the end of the day, that is limiting any type of growth. That is limiting your flexibility or therapist’s flexibility in taking advantage of the opportunities they want to, because they put up these sort of artificial barriers to protect themselves, but it sort of insulates them in their silos.

[00:31:30] Linzy: It’s protectionism, right? And we’re seeing this a lot now in the world in general. When there’s protectionism, you block out growth and, innovation to use a certain term, but I think about, for example, in the Canadian context, medical doctors migrating to Canada from Columbia or Afghanistan or Sierra Leone and having to

[00:31:50] jump through hoops, right, to be recognized in Canada. And you have like incredibly talented folks, you know, driving cabs who should be practicing family medicine, which we desperately need in this country, but again, these barriers put in the way and there has to be some balance, of course between the importance of regulation.

[00:32:08] and again, as we talked about earlier, like these professions, you know, we have a lot of education. We’re doing things in ways that are evidence-based. We’re not just kind of picking up the new ideas. So there has to be some balance there between regulation and just sure whatever, come on in, but I think right now we are too strong on the protectionism side in the health field.

[00:32:25] Matt: And I think why that’s happening, just as we said, just quickly on that is, because if you speak to, let’s just say a physician that’s gone to school in Canada, that’s compromised a lot to do so, and then they look at some of these other schools, and it’s not that these people are not talented or these schools are not reputable in any way, but it’s just some of them are much shorter in nature, much, you know, less sacrifice.

[00:32:47] And what happens is that let’s say a physician would recognize the capacity issues that we need more folks. It’s like, that’s not fair. And what happens is that then you get the bodies that take advantage of that

[00:32:58] and exploit that and I think if they said, like if we do this, like that doesn’t impact you at all, maybe there’s going to be something that can actually benefit you because we can do something more and be more effective and have some of these folks and there’s a different way, then it might make them more open. But I think the way it’s positioned is that it is potentially a threat or an inequity, you know, or a cheating of what they feel is fair.

[00:33:20] And it’s not natural to them ’cause they want to help people and it’s just that, you know, they are so passionate about what they do and they have put a lot of sacrifice in. There’s not an alternative being presented that of course, you’re then naturally going to agree with that.

[00:33:35] I remember when I was having the conversation with my old company on this CBT team, and we were sitting in a room with psychologists and it was 12 psychologists and we were pitching them like on, what we were doing and psychologists who, you know, I need to be with someone to do a course with CBT 12 to 16 sessions in person, and you’re telling me that an online thing where they’re reading some articles and then someone’s texting them like not in real time is going to be as effective as that is they were not happy with at least. And I understand what they’re saying. We’re not… it wasn’t trying to diminish it, but it’s saying, it’s not that it’s mutually exclusive, it’s that yes, it would be great for everyone to get 12 to 16 sessions, but when everyone has, let’s say $500 towards mental health and their insurance and your $250 an hour, what do you do after that second session? Nothing.

[00:34:32] Or if all these people need to go to you and there’s not capacity for that, what do we do? And so it’s not about is this the best and should replace this. It’s, let’s be open to the conversation of where this fits and I say that too because this is where, as much as I say that it’s about potentially being exploited, I also think this is where on the therapist side, there needs to be not only the understanding of business, but maybe the openness to what we were talking about before of evolution, right? And what your role is in evolution, and if you prevent change, then you’ll get left out of change, or you’ll be the term taker of

[00:35:11] the change. But if you lean into change in a pragmatic way, which I’m not saying there’s one way to do it, but that’s what we have to explore, then you can be part of the term setters of that change and do that. And I think even for us, what we’re doing now with play space. There are providers that go, well, no, I should be in person;

[00:35:31] that’s best practice. And I go, absolutely. But are you going to want to drive back to the clinic after dinner, after you pick your child up from school to do that one session? Or can you do that from home when it snows and you get cancellations? Or if someone doesn’t live in your geography, whatever it might be, is there no case for this?

[00:35:48] And then if there is a case for this, then let’s work together to think about how you say jump. We’ll say how high, because you are the conduit to that change and we need to support you, but if you don’t want me to tell you what that is, then you need to tell me what that is. because I’m willing to listen and support.

[00:36:06] Linzy: Yeah, and I’m hearing here, part of it is as a profession, getting out of some of the rigidity that we can have around, you know, black and white thinking of it’s this or nothing, because we know nothing is not good. Folks getting no mental health care, because they can’t drive in person or whatever.

[00:36:22] They don’t have enough to pay outta pocket. That’s not a solution. So, yeah, what are some of these creative ways that we can meet the needs that are out there and make sure that we as therapists are being compensated well and appropriately, and working on our terms? Yeah, I think there’s a lot here that you’ve brought to the table, Matt, in terms of bringing in some of these, what’s in the oxygen for you?

[00:36:44] I think in the space that you occupy, in the business innovation space that we have just very little of in our space, and I love the idea of us starting to bring more of this flexibility and creativity and owning our collective power as a profession, into the way that we think about therapy.

[00:36:59] So thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today, Matt, and for folks who want to learn more about Play Space, where can they do that?

[00:37:08] Matt: Yeah, go to Playspace Health and look around, see if there’s any interesting tools that resonate with you or that you use. We’d be happy to see how we can meet you where you are today and not change or prescribe what you’re doing at all because you know better.

[00:37:24] Linzy: Yes, yes, but great tools. We all need lots of tools in our toolbox. So thank you so much, Matt, for joining me today.

[00:37:30] Matt: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:37:40] Linzy: I so appreciate Matt coming onto the podcast today to bring us a lot of language and theories that are certainly not how I think and speak, about business, but really, really, really helpful to understand just all these ways of thinking and understanding business that we have not been taught as therapists.

[00:38:00] I mean, we’re not taught business at all as therapists, but we’re certainly not taught to think about economics and markets and understand how we fit into this, this broader world in terms of the service that we’re providing. So lots of food for thought there. I especially, I’m feeling fired up about the need for therapists; we need to

[00:38:21] really communicate with each other across silos, right? Get out of the [silos of] I’m a social worker, you’re an MFT, you are a psychiatrist, or you’re a psychologist, and we do things differently, and we shouldn’t talk to each other. We need to be speaking to each other to understand what is happening in our different spaces.

[00:38:38] You know, what are different insurance companies offering different professions? The more that we speak to each other and the more that we own the fact that we have power. We are offering a service that’s really valuable and it’s really needed. The more we can actually start to take care of ourselves as people and offer services in a way that is effective.

[00:38:58] You know, we have a lot of education. We have a lot of knowledge and insight. We understand what this field needs to look like, and I’m feeling really fired up right now about the need for us to step up and claim that power and claim those roles and, start really recognizing that we are offering something really valuable in the world and that’s valuable in multiple senses, emotionally and societally and financially what we do is really valuable.

[00:39:19] So thank you so much to Matt for coming on the podcast today. You can check out Play Space. We’ll put some links in the show notes for you to check out these great tools that Matt and his team have developed to make play therapy and online work with kids and teens and neurodiverse adults more effective.

[00:39:36] Thanks to Matt for joining us today. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s really helpful when you tell your friends and colleagues about it. That is the way to get more therapists and health practitioners in on these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.

[00:00:01] Linzy: What costs you the most emotionally? Because as a therapist, your emotional energy is your main resource that you’re using. If there’s a task in the business that you find really draining and you just hate it, getting services and support to streamline that task is going to give you back your emotional energy. It’s going to give you back your time, and then that time and energy can be used either in your practice seeing another client, or it’s time and energy that can go back into your life.

[00:00:29] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Today we’re going to be doing something a little bit different. Rather than doing our Friday Feelings and Finances episodes this season, we’re going to do a couple of Tuesday episodes, this being the first.  So I’m going to answer a few listener questions today, and the first questions come from Edgar.

[00:01:12] Edgar: Hi, Linzy. My name is Edgar and I am a therapist based in Los Angeles. This is my second time asking you a question. I am a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists. It’s been about maybe six months since I’ve graduated and, before I ask my questions, I just want to share that my therapy practice is doing the best it ever has. This last month I made the most I’ve ever made in my practice and when I started Money Skills for Therapists, I had just transitioned from getting off insurance panels and starting to accept only cash payments. I raised my fee by a hundred dollars and was really nervous about my practice. I was like, am I going to make it?

[00:02:05] And I’m just so proud and happy to say that I’m on the other side of that. I have a full practice. I have a wait list, and I am the most comfortable I’ve ever been in my life, and so I just wanted to share that and share my gratitude and to say that I also have, you know, translated a lot of the skills that I learned in Money Skills for Therapists into my art business, and it’s really helped me get a handle of my finances in that business, and also help me have a lot more clarity in what I’m doing. And I think this is connected to one of the questions I wanted to ask you, which is, as I’ve opened up the Pandora’s box of business and marketing and you know, learning about finance, like I’ve really seen how deep that rabbit hole goes and how much there is to learn, and I’m always tempted to buy a new course or to learn a new technique, you know, or learn about a new strategy or to, you know, re-edit my website. There’s always something you could be doing and, you know, I’m curious for you, how do you find the balance between working in your business and working on your business?

[00:03:20] I know that you have a support team with you. I’m, I guess, speaking as a solopreneur, how do you find that balance or at what point do you know when you need to bring other people on? And then I guess the other question I have around this is when do you know you’re done learning? When do you know that you’ve learned enough to have a sustainable business, and/or is it a process of always learning? Is there always more to know or is there like a book or a resource that can give you a map of everything you should know to really be set up? Just curious about that. 

And then also I do have one more question that is more about maybe mindset or emotion, which is as I’ve grown my practices, my businesses, I’ve also grown my ability to be an advocate for myself and to really share the boundaries and standards that I have for my business and practice, and I definitely have a lot that comes up for me when I ask for more, when I advocate for myself or when I say no because, you know, people aren’t able to meet what I need, and I’m a queer person. I’m a person of color. I also come from a really low income family that never had their own businesses.

And so I just wanted to ask you from your own perspective or from what you know, what is helpful when you notice those voices come up that are really afraid or outraged or confused as to how you can be such an advocate for yourself? And yeah, it’s definitely something I’m pushing up against, but I wanted to see your thoughts, and again, I want to say thank you so much for everything you do in this world, for your work and for how much you help change people’s lives. As I’ve shared, your work has really, really been deeply impactful on my own, so thank you.

[00:05:18] Linzy: Well, first of all, thank you so much, Edgar, for that lovely, lovely message as well as your questions. We had had a contest to ask folks to submit questions for Feeling & Finances, and Edgar had won that contest by submitting their question. We also got to have a conversation, so some of these things we’ve actually got to talk about face-to-face, which was such a treat. And I’m excited to also talk about these questions here on the podcast, but thank you so much, Edgar, for also sharing your progress and your wins. It’s really just so exciting for me to see all that is happening for you because of the work that you’ve done in your finances. So let’s start with that first question about always having something to learn.

[00:05:59] How do we balance working in the business versus working on the business? So it is absolutely true that there’s always more to learn in business, especially when you’re a solopreneur and you’re wearing every single hat. Every area of the business has endless things that you could learn, and when you are the marketing department, when you are the actual service delivery, when you are the CEO and the CFO and the administrator,

[00:06:25] there are never ending things to learn in all of those roles because when you’re a solopreneur, you really are playing the operations manager role in every aspect of the business. So a really helpful thing to think about, Edgar, is what actually needs to be fixed at this time because truly, there’s probably a dozen courses we could take at any given moment that would be interesting and fun and might also speak to parts of us that have fear and feel not good enough and are maybe comparing and despairing to a colleague of ours who has an incredible Instagram feed or somebody else who has really great systems. There’s always things to be improving, so it’s helpful to stop and ground into what is actually a problem right now. Is there something that’s actually causing issues in the business?

[00:07:09] And part of being able to identify what is actually a problem in the business, is having the data to see what’s not working. So for instance if people are not contacting you. If you’re noticing, okay, I have no referrals, doesn’t sound like that’s where you are right now, Edgar. You know, you’re full and you have a wait list, but, as an example, you know, if you’re noticing that there’s no referrals coming into your business, then you can start to look into, well, what’s happening? Are people seeing your Psychology Today profile, if you have one up, or another directory? Are people landing there?

[00:07:40] If you make some tweaks there, do people start to contact you? Like, where are you losing people or where is the connection not happening? Starting to look at that as data. What is the information you have and what is that information telling you about what’s actually not working? So in this example, if you are getting people contacting you, but they’re not converting, right. They’re not sticking around. Then is the question of, well, what’s not working there? Are you attracting the wrong people? Is there something about the way that you’re having those conversations in your systems that needs to be improved? Those would be examples of focusing in on your marketing funnel and your lead funnel to see where the actual problem is.

[00:08:18] And once you identify an actual problem, so many of our problems, Edgar can actually be fixed without taking another course and maybe even without reading another book. Although I do love reading books, I will say that reading business books is a great way to get so many great ideas and have, just an endless flow of people’s wisdom and knowledge without having to pay a bunch for courses and commit a bunch of a time to courses. So it’s identifying what actually is a problem, or you can identify what stage of business you’re in and what actually needs to happen now. So for instance, the stage of business that I’m in right now, we’ve gotten to the point that our sales are going well, you know, our revenue continues to grow year over year.

[00:08:58] So we know that we’ve mostly worked out our sales process. There’s always tweaks to do, but generally speaking, we have figured out how to attract the right people. We figured out how to sell to those people. So what kind of comes next is having systems so that as our team grows, and our team changes over, there’s clarity and clear SOPs and clear manuals, so it gets out of our heads and onto paper. That’s what in my own business I’ve identified is important for us right now. We figured out how to attract people. We figured out how to get the right people into our courses. We figured out how to make money basically. So now how do we build up order instability? And there Mike Michalowicz’s book, which I’m going to say I have not read, but is on my own list, is Fix This Next, and that could be a great place to look for a framework of what a healthy business looks like in terms of stages of development? Identifying what stage you’re in, and by identifying what stage you’re in, you can think about, yeah, what are the actual problems that I have to fix at this stage?

[00:09:55] Or what are the things that I need to build out at this stage to take care of my business where it is right now. But that doesn’t mean doing everything. It doesn’t mean doing things that you’re going to need to do in three years, but that doesn’t actually make sense right now. It’s identifying how much energy you have to actually work on the business, and then using that energy that you have in a thoughtful, kind of budgeted way to basically learn about one thing at a time, work on one project in the business at a time. I give myself, maybe one business development project per quarter and just do that one thing. Whether that’s SOPs or whether that’s learning marketing, you can really only take on one thing at a time. So those are my thoughts in terms of that first piece of working in the business versus on the business. Most of your time as a solepreneur, you’re still going to be working in the business because you are the therapist, you are the creator of the great things that come into that business and then using. Let’s just say five hours a week on business development, focusing in on one thing that actually needs your attention and letting the rest of them be as they are.

[00:10:59] The next question you had is: when you know you’re done learning, you gave the answer that I’m about to give in your question, which is that we’re never really done learning. What I have found with business growth is: new level, new devil. As we get into a new stage in our business, there’s always new things to learn and making friends with that is nice and enjoying that is nice. Balancing the need to learn and grow with what the business actually needs is really important. So much of our learning I found as therapists can come from that, not good enough, and that constantly trying to fill this hole of being better and being better. So staying out of that impulse and making sure that the learning that we’re doing actually makes sense for the business, is solving an actual problem, or is feeling like nurturing and generative. There are never ending things to learn in business, and we don’t need to learn them all right now. You can just be in the stage that you’re in. Learn the things that you need to learn now to solve the problems you actually have, and enjoy that and know that you’ll continue learning about business until the day you shut your business down.

[00:12:01] The last thing that you asked is about growing in your own advocacy, but that internal discord that comes up, those parts of you that have fear or outrage or confusion when you are advocating for yourself. And I certainly have had this as well and in my own experience coming from a different identity, but certainly having been raised with a nervous system that learned that being small is safe. When I come up against this in myself where I am selling something, asking for something, and there’s parts of me that are afraid, or like, who do you think you are? You had mentioned outrage. I think that’s not an experience that I’ve had a lot if I think about it, but, when I come up with those parts of myself, it’s noticing that part is there and reminding myself and being curious about what is that part trying to do, and generally speaking, I find that parts that come up that interfere or that make noise, I guess, when we are stepping up and advocating for ourself, they’re all about trying to keep us safe, right? There’s parts of us that have learned that being small is safe. Don’t ask for too much. Make sure that people like you and as women and queer folks and people of color, I think this is especially something that we get like, don’t rock the boat. Don’t make too much noise. You’ll be accused of being X, Y, Z.

[00:13:18] So noticing and naming that that is what’s happening, or whatever it is that is happening for you, Edgar, being curious about how this part is trying to keep me safe? How is this a strategy that may have been helpful in keeping me safe in the past, and then being with that part and updating it, that things have changed, you know, whatever conditions that part needs to know about, that it doesn’t, that you’re an adult now, that you are a skilled professional, that you’ve accomplished all these things. Conditions have changed is the therapist phrase that I would’ve used sometimes with my own therapy clients. Those parts of you are in trauma time, and they are using strategies that they needed to use at a certain point to help you stay safe. And those parts of you, if you want to think about it from an IFS lens or the parts of your brain that are trapped in a survival response, if you want to think about it from a trauma therapy lens, insert your therapeutic lens here.

[00:14:08] There needs to be an update and a releasing there so that you can just be in the present and really be connected with what you have built, which is extraordinary and more than you ever could have imagined when you were growing up, and more than your parents could have imagined, and there is going to be a discord there ’cause you’re doing something totally new. So it’s helping those parts of you to realize that is actually a safe thing to do at this point of your life and career. So I’m so excited for you Edgar. I’m so grateful for your questions and I’m also grateful for your words of appreciation and just so glad that I’ve been able to support you in this work and you are doing such incredible work in the world. So thank you so much, Edgar, for your questions.

[00:14:49] Our next question is from Rachel Richards, and here is Rachel’s question.

[00:14:55] Rachel: Hi Linzy. My name is Rachel Richards. I started a private practice in North Carolina. Actually just about six months ago I moved to North Carolina and my plan was to work for an agency for a couple of years, get settled here and then, do the big transition and, long story short, I fled. kind of resonated what you talked about, I just can’t stay here. Mine was for some ethical reasons, so I’m trying to figure out, I’ve opened my practice. I have a full caseload, probably two full, I don’t do numbers well in my head. I have a lot of stress around finances and I just don’t retain numbers.

[00:15:36] A little bit of dyscalculia and things like that. The question I have for you right now is. There’s so many services being offered, right? Like services to your billing or services to manage your money. Then you have Alma and Headway, and then you have to pay for HIPAA compliant business G Suite, and I feel like there are all these different things with that. On one hand offer a level of peace and security, but on the other hand, just slowly chips away at my revenue. And then, I get in this anxiety spiral of how can I be sure I’m making enough money? What do I need to be an ethical and successful therapist?

[00:16:29] I don’t want to be pennywise and pound foolish down the road, but also don’t want to get caught up in paying for unnecessary expenses. I don’t know if you have any advice or rules of thumb that can be applied to that as well. I recently heard about recognizing people with ADHD, just this ADHD tax and how to support it. Recognizing that, you know, there just may be some extra costs due to supporting the way your brain works. So are some of these services freeing up some mental load, maybe that’s worth it. Anyways, you can see where my mind goes. I don’t know if you have any helpful tips or tricks in making those types of calls. Thank you very much.

[00:17:18] Linzy: Thanks so much for this question, Rachel, and I appreciate your mentioning this idea of the ADHD tax because this is an important part of the equation that you are talking about. So I’m hearing overwhelm here, right? Like there’s so many things. It’s kind of like what we were just talking about in Edgar’s question in terms of, you know, professional development, and in this case, we’re talking about tools and services, like there’s just so much out there. They’re each going to market themselves as essential because in their perspective they are, you know, they’re passionate about the problem that they’re serving. They want you to use their services. So I’m hearing from your experiences, there’s just so much out there.

[00:17:54] There’s so much to choose from and if you took on all of it, it would add up a lot and it would cost a lot of money. So the first thing that I would encourage you to do with this is slow down and be with what you need. You need to be with what you need in two ways. First, what problems do you actually need to solve in the business? You know, thinking about the ADHD tax that you pay, what are some services that really would be valuable to you in terms of buying back your time and buying back your emotional energy? It’s kind of like, one way to think about it is what do you hate the most? How can you get that off your plate first, right?

[00:18:29] So what costs you the most emotionally? Because as a therapist, your emotional energy is your main resource that you’re using. So if there’s a task in the business that you find really draining and you just hate it, getting services and support to streamline that task is going to give you back your emotional energy. It’s going to give you back your time, and then that time and energy can be used either in your practice seeing another client, which it sounds like maybe is not what you need to do if you have more clients than you can handle right now or it’s time and energy that can go back into your life to take care of yourself and just enjoy your life.

[00:19:03] So there’s this buying back your time aspect to making any of these kinds of investments and services but in your case, you’re also talking about buying back your bandwidth and paying that ADHD tax in order to create more ease in terms of these tasks that are just going to be challenging for you and they’re not going to be fun and your brain is not going to like them. And with your finances, it’s important that you can understand what your numbers need to look like. but you don’t necessarily need to be the one who’s doing every little thing, right? Figuring out what tools help to create ease, buy back your time and energy. ‘Cause then the other piece is financial clarity, right? Like what do you need financially? And that is going to help you determine how much money you have to spend on these services. Like what is your budget, right? So as you’re looking at your financial picture, you’ve got money coming in the door from clients. I’m hearing that you’re seeing lots of clients

[00:19:59] So, stopping and being with what is actually coming in the door from clients. What is already going out the door in terms of maybe fixed expenses that are not so negotiable, like your rent, maybe your EHR. There’s going to be certain things that you have to pay, your annual licensure, your insurance, those are what we’d call your fixed expenses that are foundational expenses that are not negotiable. Maybe rent is negotiable, but we’ll leave that aside for now. Those other pieces added on top of those services that you could have or not have as you start to get clear on this, is how much money comes in the door. This is how much I need to pay myself. This is what my actual paycheck going home needs to be.

[00:20:39] Then you’re going to start to see what’s left to invest in these services, and then you actually have a budget to work with. Like let’s say you have a certain $10,000 coming in the door. And you identify that 5,000 of that needs to go home to you. Let’s say another $2,000 of that needs to go towards taxes. So that leaves $3,000 left. Now you have a budget and some of that $3,000 is already going to be committed to things in your business. Let’s say you have $1,500 of overhead expenses. So now there’s $1,500 left of what we would call variable spending that you can do. That’s the money that you can use to decide: is it really great to have a bookkeeping service on board?

[00:21:14] Is that a great way to buy back your time? Do you bring on a VA to help you with some organizational tasks? Because that’s an incredible use of your time. Money is a tool and when you can decide and create that clarity of this is my budget, this is how much of this tool I have to spend, then you can decide what you want to exchange it for, to bring more ease into your private practice. You know, like where is your ADHD tax going to go, in terms of the money that you’re paying to make your life easier to offset the way that your brain works, right? And to take care of some of those tasks that are not going to be easy or fun for you and are going to create emotional drag. Getting rid of those is so valuable, but we can’t outsource every single thing.

[00:21:59] And there’s limited money. So that’s a great place to start. And I know Rachel, that you have signed up for Money skills for Therapists. So this is work that we will be able to do with you in the community to help you get clear on exactly how much do you need to bring home, get you paid, and then how much money is there to take care of these things in the business and slow down and be with where can this money have the biggest impact for you? So I’m excited for you, Rachel, that you are already stepping into doing this work in Money Skills For Therapists, and I’m excited that Diane and I can support you in figuring out this question, but yeah, it’s really about slowing down, creating clarity, and then from that place you can authentically choose what you actually need help with in your practice. Thank you so much, Rachel and Edgar, for your questions today. Thank you everybody for joining me today to talk through these questions. So many therapist questions around money are similar, ’cause we’re all walking that same path.

[00:22:56] So if you are interested in getting my support like Edgar did, and like Rachel is doing with your finances, the way to do that is through Money Skills For Therapists. If you’re interested in working with me in Money Skills For Therapists, the way to do that is to check out my masterclass. I will put the link in the show notes. That masterclass, you can think about it like my intake process, that walks you through the three biggest mistakes that therapists make in their private practice finances. It walks you through my framework for getting your finances, working for you, and you’re going to learn all about Money Skills For Therapists and how I and my team can support you inside that course to get to the place that Edgar is, get to that other side of actually having your private practice working for you.

[00:23:36] Thank you so much, Edgar and Rachel for your questions today. And thank you to you, the lovely therapists and health practitioners who listen to this podcast. Thank you to you for joining me

[00:00:00] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.  ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is a returning guest, Nicole McCance, and Nicole is a psychologist turned business coach who helps folks grow their group practices. She grew her own practice to 55 clinicians and multiple seven figures while having toddlers at home and so she knows how to systematize and grow, and that is what we get into today. Nicole lays out the five steps to scaling your practice from the very beginning to the end, the five things to do to move you from being a solo practitioner, into having and retaining clients.

[00:01:26] Nicole is so clear in her thinking.Her podcast is called The Business Savvy Therapist, and you will feel that coming across today. So we dig into those five steps, with lots and lots of interesting perspectives and insights for her along the way about therapy and selling and marketing and making sure that you don’t become the CQA, the Chief Question Answerer, which is a role that probably many folks here can identify with. Here is my conversation with Nicole McCance. So Nicole, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:09] Nicole: So happy to be here. 

[00:02:10] Linzy: Yes, I am excited to have you here. I feel like since we last spoke, I’ve been spending more time in the group practice space. ‘Cause my own group Practice finances course has solidified and expanded, which has been so exciting. So I’m really excited to learn more from you today because this is a world that I’m spending more and more time in, and this is your zone: group practice. This is what you live and breathe.

[00:02:33] Nicole: Totally, yes, specifically helping people like scale their solo to a group or take their group to the next level.

[00:02:38] Linzy: Yes, and so scaling, I wanted to dig in with you today. ‘Cause scaling is something, it’s kinda like a hot buzzword too these days. We know that there’s an advantage to growing your practice beyond yourself, beyond your one-on-one time. so I know that teaching scaling is, this is what you do, this is your bread and butter.

[00:02:56] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:02:56] Linzy: Tell us about scaling. What is your approach to scaling that works well for group practices?

[00:03:01] Nicole: There’s definitely a way to do it because what happens if you do it the wrong way? You’re actually not a CEO, you’re a CQA. A Chief Question Answer, and people listening are probably like, oh my god, that’s me. I did not systemize. So I actually have a five step scaling method that I love to share that got me to seven figures in just two years with toddler twins at home.

[00:03:23] So I’ll say all five steps and then we can dig into like whatever ’cause there’s a, okay, step one, systemize your operations. You see, therapists tend to hire first. oh, just post it on indeed. Like how hard is that? But what happens is nothing is systemized. There’s no manual, and that’s why you become the CQA.

[00:03:40] So first systemize, then hire, which is step two. This is where you build your team after you have all the processes. Then step three, this is where you attract the clients with digital marketing, because I had babies at home. I wanted to leverage off of something that worked while I slept, that the marketing was happening in the background.

[00:04:01] That’s step three, step four, which a lot of people don’t do, so people think, oh, it’s, it’s, they’re obsessed with marketing, but here’s the thing, guys, there’s not your clients yet. Step four is: convert those clients with consult calls and then step five, retain them. That’s key. Otherwise, it’s a leaky bucket. With follow-ups though, this is a specific strategy. Retain with follow-ups.

[00:04:25] Linzy: Okay, so beautiful from beginning to end. So step one is systematize, which I feel like is not a very sexy place to start, which is why people don’t want to start there.

[00:04:33] Nicole: Yes. It’s boring. Super so boring. 

[00:04:35] Linzy: It’s so much funner to hire. What I find too with a lot of group practice owners is. Tell me if this is what you see as typical too. A lot of times folks also start a group practice ’cause their friend that they worked with at the hospital is looking for some part-time work. Like it happens so casually, it’s accidental. Right? And it’s always exciting and fun to be able to bring somebody that you love and respect into what you’ve built, right? And just get them going, but convince me, like why do we need to systemize first? Tell me about this Chief Question Answerer role.

[00:05:04] Nicole: Yeah, well, step one, I’ve worked with about 800 group practice owners. Now 70% are American, and if they fall into that accidentally, a lot of them overpay. That’s the biggest mistake, or they don’t have a contract at all, or it’s not a great contract, and then things fall apart and they’re not protected.

[00:05:24] That’s the biggest thing and that’s actually why I give people all my templates ’cause I’m like, here, I’ve already built the container, just take it. But systemization is basically getting everything out of your head. If it’s in your head, somebody will go to you and ask you that question and I mean everything. And so here’s the thing though, Linzy. I’m a bit of a control freak and so it was really scary to hire and put my reputation in somebody else’s hands who was kind of a stranger that I met yesterday on Indeed, right? So what was really helpful was templates. I templated every single new client email, what to say when they cancel, and that helped my control freak part because it was still my words, it was just my admin cutting and pasting and I could trust somebody cutting and pasting.

[00:06:10] Linzy: Yes, yeah and then you know, the quality ’cause you have set the quality

[00:06:14] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:06:15] Linzy: So I am curious from the systematizing perspective, what is your preferred method of having SOPs? Do you use a tool like Notion or Asana? Do you have a Word doc? What do you do?

[00:06:26] Nicole: Google Drive all day long, so there’s need to haves and nice to haves when you’re a startup and you’re scaling, personally, Asana comes later. I want every penny to be revenue generating. So get Google Suite. You can use Gmail, you can use Google Chat, put everything in the drive. All of the manuals we had, everything was in the drive live. I could see it updated by my admin. Then later when there’s cash flow, I love Asana, but I feel like it’s not something you need to invest in right away. It’s more of a nice to have.

[00:06:54] Linzy: Yeah, and I think that’s a good distinction,because sometimes it’s easy to confuse the tool with the actual activity and the activity I’m hearing you need to do is like, you need to write these things down. And you don’t actually need a fancy tool to write it down. You need a Word document.

[00:07:08] Nicole: Exactly, that’s all. Send somebody a link and put looms, like tons of videos. So it’s really easy and even onboarding. You want to systemize, streamline the onboarding. What do they get trained in? You know, when does supervision happen? Every single thing is streamlined. And that’s how I was able to build a revenue generating group practice that ran without me. Otherwise, it just would be a mess and I’d be exhausted.

[00:07:36] Linzy: Yeah, and I see this chief Question Answerer hat on many of the group practice owners that I know. Sometimes I hear folks talking about how it’s so hard to take a vacation, for instance, because it’s like you’re away and something comes up. The first thing they do is they come to you, and you get that text message that says,hey,I know your way, but just this one thing. And so that’s an interesting observation that you have where it’s well if the information lives in your head, they’re going to have to come to you.

[00:08:00] Nicole: Yes, and I actually suggest the first person you hire be an admin because they’re actually going to do the training eventually when you create the manuals that new therapists will be trained in the Jane app or whatever your practice management software is. They’re doing all that, not you, while you’re on the beach chilling.

[00:08:17] Linzy: And what is your response to folks who are scared or resistant to hire an admin? Because I do find that there’s a certain,I don’t know if it’s a subset of group practice owners, but certain folks find it really scary and hard to think about hiring help that’s not revenue generating, that’s just somebody they’re paying. What do you say to folks who are scared to hire an admin?

[00:08:36] Nicole: So two things. One is, what is your time worth and what is your freedom worth? If you’re going to pay this admin 25 bucks an hour, let’s say, but your hourly rate is 1 75, let’s say. It is a no-brainer, but it is the only way for you to focus on the business when you’re running the business and not in it. I will say this, I have a whole lot of people in my program right now. Those who hire an admin early, it’s a six month program. If they do it at the very beginning, guess what? They grow two times as fast. I track it because there’s two of them. It makes sense. There’s literally two people with the same focus and one other thing too is if you train your admin to do follow-ups, it is a revenue generating position because now those canceled clients are coming in faster, which is bringing in way more money than you’re paying that admin.

[00:09:27] Linzy: It’s so true. There is a revenue generating aspect ’cause I’m also thinking, yeah, you’re retaining folks, but also you’re going to be able to convert them faster. You can be in a session and somebody can get booked in while you’re in that session. Yeah. Okay. So

[00:09:39] Nicole: It’s a mindset shift. It’s a big

[00:09:41] Linzy: really is. It really is and I do find it’s one that is easy for some folks, probably like delegators. It’s easy. I consider myself almost an over delegator,like I’m the opposite of a micromanager sometimes, but for folks who have that belief where it’s like, only I can do this, only I can do this, of getting there, but yeah, you have to start thinking differently.

[00:10:01] Nicole: And it’s about asking for help and that it’s okay to ask for help,

[00:10:03] Linzy: So that’s step one, systematize. Step two is hire.

[00:10:08] Nicole: Yay, here we are. Hire. This is the fun part. I suggest your first therapist. Be a mini me and hire somebody that is very similar to you. I’ll share a quick story. When I was 27, I moved to Russia. I’m a quick start on the Colby. Not sure if you know what that means, but I fell in love, moved to Russia closed my practice, made the biggest mistake. I gave it to somebody who was nothing like me. I’m big energy, very direct and she was not that, guess what? Not one person stayed out of 50 people. I didn’t love the guy anymore. I moved back. I called everybody and I was able to take them back. Thank God, but what a hard lesson. Think about it, when you go to a restaurant, you expect the same vibe, the same energy, the same experience, right? So it can be a shocker when you hire somebody that is nothing like you. So really keep that in mind that whatever makes you unique and why you’re so booked, it’s important to know what that is and then find that, and have that be top of mind in the interview, and then they’ll retain them.

[00:11:15] Linzy: That’s such a good point. ’cause yeah,they’re coming looking for a certain energy and if you can’t offer yourself. It makes sense that you start with being able to offer somebody very similar to you.

[00:11:24] Nicole: Exactly. At least for your first hire, not all your hires for sure. We want to offer all the things to all the people but your very first hire,have it be a mini me.

[00:11:32] Linzy: That makes a lot of sense and with the mini me, I’m curious too, do you find that is also important? Like a similar clinical focus? What is the checklist of how I can tell if somebody is a mini me?

[00:11:41] Nicole: Yeah. So I would say a bit of personality. So are they direct, are they outgoing energy wise, you know, but also yes, focus for sure. So let’s say you do deeper subconscious work like IFS or if you’re more CBT cognitive than that’s a totally different person.

[00:12:00] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. So your first hire is that mini me. What is step three again? Remind me.

[00:12:04] Nicole: Yeah, so step three, here’s the fun part that everybody’s like, fun word marketing because you’re like, okay, but what about the clients? So now we’re going to attract the clients. There’s 16 different marketing strategies you could do. Here’s the thing, if you wanted clients yesterday, what have you got to do? The fastest way to bring in clients is to advertise. You have to pay to play, unfortunately. But if you’re like, I don’t have the effort, and I don’t have the time, then I love Google Ads because it brings in the people, but it only brings in the people if you have a website that can convert, if you don’t, it doesn’t work.

[00:12:38] Linzy: Right.Okay, so this is where you pay to get people in the door. And do you have any suggestions or tips for making sure that your ads are successful? Because this is something where I find sometimes folks get stuck when they’re thinking about things like Google Ads. Especially Google Ads, how can I tell if they’re working? Who should I hire for this?

[00:12:55] Nicole: Yeah, please do not do it yourself. You might as well flush your money right down the toilet, honestly, because if you think about it, a Google ad company takes about two or three weeks to set up the backend. That’s not our industry. You could be spending that two or three weeks on revenue generating things, building your practice, systemizing, hiring.

[00:13:13] The very first thing that’s most important is actually having a good website that converts. What that means is having messaging and certain pictures and calls to action. That should be the first goal for the therapist. So some tips are honestly, get a really good Google Ads company that works with our industry.

[00:13:30] ‘Cause we’re so regulated, there’s so much we can’t do. Be very clear on the keywords, but honestly, just trust them. The biggest thing you want to know is your ROAS, which is your return on ad spend in Toronto, to bring in one client costs about $100, but if you think about it, Linzy, that’s getting them to the website, clicking on book now, booking an appointment, showing up at the consult, booking, like that’s a lot of steps, but typically, how much money does one client bring in and if they stay, let’s say, a whole treatment plan typically you make about four times your investment, which my goodness, that’s a pretty good ROI.

[00:14:08] Linzy: Yeah, that’s very good return and that ROAS, like return on ad spend or ROI in general is I think another mindset shift that folks have to experience when you’re becoming really the financial leader of a business or a group practice specifically is like, yeah, you have to recognize that money going in now will turn into money later and you have to make sure it does turn into money. Which is a new way of thinking about money, I think for a lot of practitioners.

[00:14:32] Nicole: Oh my gosh. I’m just, today I released, The Master Your Money Mindset Masterclass specifically, because it’s like, and I used to be like this too. That spending money felt like a loss, right? Because I may not get it back and that mindset shift is everything. Once you realize the only way to make Think of the biggest conglomerates like real estate. You know, you have to invest in something. Is it scary? Yes, but if you just start really small and you track closely and you work with the right person who knows what they’re doing, there’s a really low chance you fail.

[00:15:06] Linzy: And that’s where I find, too, building up your skills to be with the numbers and being with that information is essential, right? Like you need to trust somebody, but also you need to know what to check to make sure is this working? Does this make sense? Do I want to increase this investment? Do I want to end this investment eventually, right? I think we can’t outsource that responsibility to somebody else in terms of making sure that it’s working. We have to actually be watching that.

[00:15:31] Nicole: There is a shift there and what I have found with being with those numbers every week is that they become much lighter as you get to know them. And you get to spot those things quickly if you’re like. Well, that’s kind of funny. Last week this looked a little different.

[00:15:41] Linzy: What’s happening there? you prevent fires, and when we’re used to running our businesses in these very responsive, crisis oriented ways, this can be something that falls down the list, but it absolutely should not.

[00:15:51] Nicole: Yes.

[00:15:52] Linzy: So step four I’ve marketed now.

[00:15:54] Nicole: Four. So now, okay, I’ve got the client, but now you need to convert them because they’re just a prospect. They’re not a client. I suggest converting clients with consult calls. Offer a 20 minute, not 15. There’s a reason why I’ll get to it in a sec. Free consult call and it’s a sales call, like I actually give people a script ’cause there’s certain things that you can say and your people cannot say and not convert on that call. The reason it’s 20 minutes is the last five minutes are to get their credit card, go over the cancellation policy, and most importantly, book four to six sessions and really get them committed and booked because therapy doesn’t work just with one session

[00:16:34] Linzy: No. No. It doesn’t. So, yeah, being clear that that’s a sales call, tell me more about that. ‘Cause I think sales calls are something that sometimes,the idea of sales can make therapists feel a little sweaty. They’re like, no, I don’t do sales. I help people. How do you talk to your therapist about sales?

[00:16:48] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.

[00:17:08] ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. You know, I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better. Right. So if you see it as serving, taking a stand for this person where other people in their life may not be doing that, and for me, my own therapy has changed my whole life. So I showed up or did show up before I sold my practice with so much conviction that therapy works. It’s not sales. Now I’m just saying it as a business coach because it’s revenue generating and it’s sales and we should feel comfortable, like why is it that every other industry is comfortable with sales selling us stuff that we don’t need, but we literally change lives and we’re not comfortable.

[00:17:52] Linzy: You’re not selling somebody some cheap product that is a knockoff that’s going to break, but you’re selling somebody something of extreme value.

[00:17:58] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:17:59] Linzy: And that’s something that I used to think about sometimes when I would have to psych myself up a little bit about the value of what I was doing, likeI think about those best clients that I had and what was the feedback that they gave me. ] I remember one client that I had years ago, at the end of our work together, she was like, you have changed my life and you’ve changed the life of everybody around me. You’ve changed my husband’s life. You’ve changed my kid’s life. What is the dollar amount on that?

[00:18:20] Nicole: Exactly. No car or nice outfit or even vacation can do that for somebody, but therapy can do that for somebody. So being grounded in that when we’re having these conversations. Yeah, so to me, I’m hearing the word, like your energy showing up or that resonance that you’re showing up with that belief, you know, like psyching yourself up because I find that if, because I work with only group practices, if you have somebody who has a low conversion rate, they’re probably showing up to the call with doubt and then those mirror neurons kick in and all of a sudden. That client feels doubt and doesn’t book. So tapping into that before the call is important.

[00:19:00] Linzy: And I’ve had consult calls myself when I’ve been looking for a therapist where I can feel that the therapist is not totally convinced. Like you feel that you’re so right. Those mirror neurons come on and you’re like, um, I’ll call you back. Whereas before the call I was like, psyched. I was reading their specialty. It’s exactly what I need. I’m like, thank goodness I found this person, but yeah, that energy does really come across. If you are not convinced that you can help somebody, or if you are feeling bad about the prospect of them paying you money,that is going to come across in your voice.

[00:19:28] Nicole: Exactly. You need to value it first.

[00:19:30] Linzy: Yeah, so for conversion, I’m curious, what do you see as a typical conversion rate on a call like that? What is a benchmark that folks should be looking for on those calls?

[00:19:39] Nicole: 70%. Yeah, at least 70. There are some people who say, I think of yourself or when you were in practice, they were close to 90 and great I hired and they’re only 70. With training you can get them up to 80. Now this is on the call with a follow up, which is actually going into step five. You can move that conversion up. But I find couples are lower because they have to get a babysitter to talk to each other.

[00:20:06] Linzy: You have to have two people buy in. There’s extra complexity. So a good benchmark is about 70%. It’s normal that your admin will probably convert less than you at first.

[00:20:15] Nicole: Okay. So your admin’s not doing the consult call. I teach people to remove the bottleneck, remove the admin. The show up rate is higher when people book online and book their own appointment rather than admin. This is proven and so we tested both at my clinic. We actually said, well, let’s try to have an admin do it. And guess what happened? They wanted to talk to the therapist. So now I’m paying an admin Yeah. And having the

[00:20:37] Linzy: Right. Yeah.

[00:20:38] Nicole: So they’re just going to convert higher.

[00:20:40] Linzy: So you’re creating a bottleneck or friction if you’re putting your admin in the way. They just want to talk to the therapist. That’s a great point because I think folks do it both ways, right? So I do hear people where their admin’s doing it, but you’re very strongly suggesting it should be the therapist who does that call.

[00:20:52] Nicole: And test both. I do say a lot of people come into my program, they’re like, well, I’m doing something and I’m like, if it’s working and not broken, then don’t fix it. You know what I mean? But if you’re like, ooh, I’m not sure if it’s working, I would test out your therapist doing it.

[00:21:04] Linzy: Yes, which testing is I think another great mindset shift for business owners. This is something that I found I really had to overcome in myself when I first started building this business, was getting out of any feelings of If it doesn’t go the way you want, that you failed or that it says something about you, I think when we’re sensitive creatures, it’s easy to spiral into whatever little darkness we carry inside, you know, when something goes wrong. But if we think about it as testing where it’s okay, that was helpful information.

[00:21:29] Nicole: Exactly. It’s how we grow.

[00:21:31] Linzy: Yeah, it is such a helpful way to grow your business and I had a coach back in the beginning of this business who was like, it’s all data. It’s all data and that was so helpful when I was first starting just to be like, it’s data. Okay. I made this change in my sales funnel and everything stopped. What great information. Yeah, I get to fix it. So yes. Okay, beautiful. And then number five?

[00:21:49] Nicole: Lastly, follow up exactly. Retain clients. So the key to success is not actually how many new clients you have. This is a big mindset shift that I hope everyone gets. It’s the retention because otherwise you’re constantly like trying to invest, go to the networking, you know, it’s exhausting and costly on Google ads. If you can retain them, which is a long-term value, LTV of the client, you’re golden because now you have stability, but how we actually retain them as follow up and I mean, having your admin send an email every time they no show or cancel when they don’t book on the consult and when they ghost like they’re doing well and then all of a sudden they go on vacation. You never hear from ’em. And that’s just an email. It’s not solicitation, it’s just hey, we’re thinking of you. We noticed you didn’t book. And also was it a good fit? This is a chance where the admin gets to say, hey, and the person might be honest and be like, you know what? It wasn’t a good fit. Okay, great. We’ll move you to somebody

[00:22:47] Linzy: Yeah, and I’m thinking about one of my students who I know did your course, and she does this, I’m sure she learned it from you, where her admin follows up and is like, oh, hey, I noticed you had a first call with this person, or a first appointment, and you didn’t rebook. Was it not a fit? And sometimes it’s such a beautiful opportunity for the client to say, you know what? It wasn’t really a fit like I thought it was going to be, but the vibe wasn’t there. And then you’re like, wonderful. Let’s set you up with this other person. I’m hearing you’re looking for somebody more direct. Great, it’s so good that we know that now. So it’s like you’re actually, what I think for many therapists see sometimes as the end of the road is really just a fork. It’s just an opportunity to send them down another path if you have this in place.

[00:23:23] Nicole: And this is where you need the admin, and where it’s revenue generating. Research says that if you follow up, your sales go up by 20%, and so many people miss this step. It’s the most important.

[00:23:34] Linzy: My dad was a salesperson. When I was growing up, I was not pleased about that as an angsty lefty teenager. I was like, Ugh, sales are terrible. but I’ve come around to a different perspective, and something that my dad firmly believes and talks about is: it’s about going back. You go back again and again. So in our industry, that looks a little different. You can’t just show up at somebody’s house. But for him, like he sold tools and he tells the story of going by this guy’s shop every time he would be in this certain town and the guy would be like, wow, what are you doing here?

[00:24:02] I don’t want your tools. Get out of here. This real curmudgeonly mechanic but on the sixth or seventh time that my dad showed up to be like, hey, just checking to see if you need anything. He’s like, fine. I’ll buy something from you ’cause you won’t go away. Different exchange. We wouldn’t have an exchange like that with our therapeutic clients, but it illustrates a principle, which is if you just remind them that you’re there, put yourself top of mind again, it gives them the opportunity to make a different choice. And it could remind them, yeah, actually I do want to keep seeing that person and we are talking about something hard in therapy and it is easy to avoid, but I should actually keep going back.

[00:24:34] Nicole: Yes, and sometimes you just forget. Yeah. Have you ever really done something consistently, stopped for the summer and then forgotten? And if they would’ve reached out in September, you literally would’ve started again months before. 

[00:24:47] Linzy: Totally, Totally, Yes. Like you are also helping them to get back in a good habit that is serving them. Okay. So helpful. So, great. Thank you Nicole, for laying this all out. There’s so much in this. For folks who are interested in learning more about what you offer, all the help that you give, where can they find you?

[00:25:04] Nicole: If you’re a podcast person, I have a podcast. It’s called The Business Savvy Therapist, where I teach you everything about business. And if you love live events, I do have a weekly live event called How to Build A Seven Figure Group Practice, which is exactly what this is called today. So we go into the nitty and the gritty, and I live, answer your questions.

[00:25:23] Linzy: Amazing. Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Nicole.

[00:25:26] Nicole: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:25:38] Linzy: Something that stuck out to me in my conversation with Nicole is just how many mindset shifts we need to undergo as we move from more of a therapist mentality into a business owner mentality, whether that’s in your own private practice to make it sustainable in a solo practice, or whether you do want to scale into a group practice.

[00:25:57] There are so many ways of thinking that we need to shift around, selling and what it means and systems and getting help. There’s a lot of personal growth that we end up doing in order to be able to grow something that is beyond us, in order to be able to scale. And that’s certainly been my own experience of creating a more scaled business is there has been a lot that I’ve had to shift and change and overcome and identify and grieve and move on from, all of those things, as I have built something that can serve more people than I would’ve been able to just individually one-on-one sitting in an office. Lots of great insights from Nicole today. You can check out all the great things that she does if you are interested in also scaling your group practice.

[00:26:43] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts, and if you are enjoying the podcast, leaving a review is also a really nice way to get more eyes on this podcast. You can click on the link in our show notes. It will take you to a beautiful little page that will give you compatible apps or websites, based on the device that you’re using. So you can leave a review, share what you appreciate about the podcast, maybe share your favorite episode, and that just helps other therapists and health practitioners find us and also benefit from these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.

[00:00:02] Ed: Many therapists have experienced financial trauma amongst other forms of trauma. And this is not just about folks that maybe grew up in poverty, that’s one piece. But there are people, clients I’ve worked with that have grown up in great affluence that have just as much financial trauma. And so it’s expanding our paradigm to say it doesn’t matter where you land on the SES you’re going to have faced financial adversity.

[00:00:19] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Ed Coambs. Ed Coambs is a trailblazer when it comes to financial therapy. He shares today about his journey from firefighter to financial planner, to couples therapist, to now being able to practice this real blend of all these different skills, doing therapy, informed financial planning with couples.

[00:01:12] Today, Ed and I talk about financial intimacy. We talk about all of the pieces, all of our humanness and all the relational aspects that are bound up in money, and all of those pieces that we end up bringing together, with our partner when they also have their own stuff about money. We talk about why financial intimacy is so important for therapists to be able to develop our own ability to be with money, both with our clients, and in our own lives.

[00:01:38] We really unpack today all of these different facets that go into our relationships with money that make it so complex and nuanced and how that, then comes together with our partners stuff, to make money one of the most difficult things for couples to talk about. I so enjoyed this conversation with Ed today. You can really feel his blend of his therapy skills, and his knowledge of attachment styles and family systems, and how he brings that into finances and working with people and couples around money. Here is my conversation with Ed Coambs.

[00:02:24] So Ed, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:28] Ed: Thanks, Linzy. Thrilled to be here.

[00:02:29] Linzy: Yeah, I’m very excited to have you here. We share a similar passion and interest, for finances and therapists. So tell folks a little bit about your story and the work that you do. ’cause I think you have an interesting kind of mix of things that you’re bringing to the table.

[00:02:43] Ed: Yeah, it’s been a colorful and meandering journey, there’s a number of therapists, right, that don’t go straight into therapy like undergrad, graduate. And so for me, I started as a professional firefighter and I heard the guys complain about their wives and money and what stood out to me, I was actually being interviewed recently by a PhD doc student on financial infidelity, which will tie into where we’re going today is part of that impression is, I knew I didn’t want to have the problems the guys had at the firehouse, but part of it was financial infidelity because they would talk about not telling their spouse how much money they were making,

[00:03:17] Linzy: Oh, wow

[00:03:17] Ed: Especially in their side hustles, or if they worked overtime, you know, how much extra money was coming into the check would kind of get taken to the side. And so I was like, that doesn’t feel right. I mean, you know, 19, 20, 21 years old, but I also had the guy doing 4 0 3 B accounts, which are the retirement accounts. And he explained to me how investing worked in a pretty nice, simple way and I was like, I like this. This is cool. So I was like, oh, what is this field of financial planning, and I was working on a business degree because I thought I might be the fire chief.

[00:03:51] Linzy: Yep.

[00:03:52] Ed: Right, and so as life evolved, I met my wife. She was finishing dental school. I no longer wanted to be a firefighter ’cause I was burned out, pun intended.

[00:04:00] Linzy: Truly.

[00:04:01] Ed: I mean, that’s a whole other podcast episode on mental health issues in the first responder world. But I had this brilliant idea. I was going to be a financial planner and I was going to make all this money and I was going to be fantastic ’cause I was going to help people and then I realized that it took more than just being a nice guy to be a good financial planner and that some of the ethics of financial advising in certain segments was more about selling products than it was about actually helping people. So that wasn’t so hot, but I did end up working at Vanguard Mutual Funds, got my MBA, kind of all with this like if I just know more, everything will be okay. Get married, get my MBA, get my certified financial planner designation and guess what? My wife doesn’t like all my financial ideas.

[00:04:42] Linzy: What?

[00:04:43] Ed: What? Man, wait, when my mom asked me to talk with my dad about his small business. He’s not like wanting to implement everything that I offer him. Wait, there’s some other gnarly stuff happening with her parents and divorce and money, and I’m like, wait, we didn’t talk about any of this stuff MBA land CFP land.

[00:05:04] Linzy: Truly.

[00:05:05] Ed: So I was also feeling out of sorts in corporate America from having run into burning buildings to sitting in cubicles. So, I went back to school to become a therapist because they air quotes “help people.” I was pretty naive too. No, I had been to therapy, but I didn’t really get therapy and ended up in a seminary because I also had questions about God and people. And so of course, where do you go?

[00:05:29] And I was like, surely these therapist-people will know how money works and will be able to help me figure this out. How to use therapy, naive again. Yes, by your response. I was woefully disappointed. ‘Cause every time I tried to bring up the topic of money,they were neutral to not welcoming by and large and this will really tie very specifically into the work that you’re doing and advocating for. Fortunately, one of my supervisors was running and growing a successful group practice. He was very interested in what I was saying, what I was trying to figure out, how it applied, and how I could use it with my clients. I think he was also benefiting, which is fine. That’s great, but it was because he had that business mindset also that I felt this sense of resonance that he was open to like, how do these worlds intersect?

[00:06:17] Linzy: Yes.

[00:06:17] Ed: And so, you know, I got out of grad school really confused because now wait, I have a sense of self and there’s this trauma thing and like addictions and what? Oh my God. So I spent eight years as a full-time couples therapist digging deeper and deeper into what does it mean to heal yourself and help other people heal and help couples connect. And somehow I thought we would start to talk about their money, but like we could never quite get to the money conversation, right. Because when they come to couples therapy, they’re in deep distress, like comprehensive financial planning, investment management, not really their concern.

[00:06:54] Linzy: I would say those are like higher up, you know, the Maslow’s hierarchy than where they might be.

[00:06:58] Ed: Like if I’m worried… If you just cheated on me and I’m worried whether we’re going to be together three months from now, what my retirement account looks like is not that much of a concern.

[00:07:06] Linzy: No, not not feeling so important right now.

[00:07:08] Ed: No, so, along the way though, I’d also found the Financial Therapy Association, which is a group of financial planners, therapists, and academics that are saying, how do we bring these worlds together? Got very deeply involved, including being the past president, helping with the certification development, and so I’ve just been slowly weaving and diving and trying to integrate financial planning and therapy together with couples for, I don’t know, 15 years.

[00:07:34] Linzy: Yeah, and it is such a new space,a financial therapy. I am curious, being that you’re the past president of the association. When did financial therapy in your mind really become like a thing? When was there enough of it that it actually became a field of practice for therapists?

[00:07:51] Ed: Yeah, I think that’s a great question. So, I am not huge on dates and times like real well. So these are subjective boundaries, so don’t pin me to these, So I would say 14 years ago, like that first group, The Professional Organization of Financial Therapy. Now you just interviewed Barry Tesler, who’s phenomenal, who’s one of the people that I found when I first came out and I was like, oh. But professionally, 14 years ago at Kansas State Marriage and Family Therapist and financial planner, academics met each other and they got really interested in each other’s topics. Then they held some conferences at the universities to figure out what’s here. Is there something here?  They formed an organization, the Financial Therapy Association, 12 years ago. I got in contact with them three or four or five years ago. We’re trying to form a membership group, an organization, to create academic literature.

[00:08:45] So there’s the Journal of Financial Therapy, and we’re like, okay, well, but people are asking what does it mean to be a financial therapist? How do you do it? So, six-ish years ago, I think… Probably longer than that, seven or eight years ago, we started outlining the certification to be a financial therapist, created the training and we’re now in a revision and update. What’s the core curriculum? What does it take? Job task analysis. So like the field is progressing. There’s a couple universities that have graduate certificates in financial therapy

[00:09:15] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:09:16] Ed: The conference. I don’t know when this will go live, but it’s June 9th to the 11th in Athens, Georgia at UGA, which is one of the two primary leading institutions in the field.

[00:09:25] Linzy: Yeah. Like so it really is still forming, I would say and building and,

[00:09:30] Ed: yes. Yes. I mean, I think probably the closest field that people might recognize is like the field of sex therapy, and I don’t know the full history of that field, but I feel like we’re a couple generations behind them. They’re a specialized field that I think is parallel to what financial therapy is trying to accomplish.

[00:09:49] Linzy: Well, yeah, like similarly bringing a taboo topic to like the front of the conversation rather than, as you say, kind of hoping it’s going to come up with folks and actually having the skills directly work with it rather than it being kind of like an on the side topic,as you’re working with folks.

[00:10:04] Ed: Yeah, right, because the messaging overtly and covertly in the therapy training world is, it’s not about the It’s about all these other things.

[00:10:11] Linzy: I just mentioned to you when we were chatting before this new phrase that I just learned. I just came back from the American Counseling Association Conference,and the phrase was mentioned to me. It’s about the outcome, not the income, which is just clever first of all, we will give marks for cleverness, but terrible, right? Like just this,messaging that we get as therapists about money.

[00:10:29] Ed: I think it’s well intended, but it traps us psychologically in this loop that we can’t make money or want to make money.

[00:10:36] Linzy: Yes.

[00:10:37] Ed: And that somehow, right? Because the other association that we hold is that money is evil, dirty, or bad.

[00:10:41] Linzy:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:42] Ed: It’s capitalism. And it’s capitalism and the reality is that, I think it’s even before capitalism.I mean, it’s in the system of capitalism, but it’s developmentally as children, right? We develop binary, black and white and fantastical thinking associate that with money. I think that there’s some developmental cycles that we have to work through to really see money in a complex, nuanced way. Not this black and white way.

[00:11:09] Linzy: So tell me then about this concept you have of financial intimacy. What is financial intimacy?

[00:11:16] Ed: Yeah, absolutely. So financial intimacy is the ability to sit with your partner and to be comfortable with both your own reality of money and theirs, both the hopes, dreams, aspirations, as well as the fears, anxieties, places of shame, and that we can be seen and be known by each other around those financial realities.

[00:11:40] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, as you’re mentioning this, like something that we talk about a lot in Money Skills for Therapists, like in my foundational course for solo folks, is developing that ability to be with your own feelings and stories around money, like being able to develop curiosity and maybe tolerance for some of the reactions and be able to, you know, all those therapist things of by being able to be with it, being able to start to make some distance and notice it and turn it over. And then when you are in a partnership, you have that person’s stuff too, right? It’s double suitcases, full of stuff.

[00:12:13] Ed: Kind of like reverse synergy almost, it’s breaking apart. Usually when you have your unresolved stuff and their unresolved stuff around money that’s why it becomes so conflictual. And so we’re wanting it to be one plus one equals five synergy, but more often not. It’s one plus one equals minus 20.

[00:12:33] Linzy: Right, right. It’s kind of, I’m picturing,magnets as you’re making that hand motion, like it’s more like a repelling than an attracting,

[00:12:39] Ed: Yes, yes.

[00:12:41] Linzy: Plus your stuff equals We’re not going to talk about that.I’m not going to tell you and I’m going to talk to my mom about you..

[00:12:50] Ed: Wait, I’ve never heard that before. Just kidding.

[00:12:54] Linzy: Spoiler spoiler. um, Yes, okay, so that financial intimacy then is that ability to sit with your stuff and your partner’s stuff together?

[00:13:01] Ed: Right, and so most of my work is with couples, right? But like financial intimacy, I think, is about that primary partnership, but it’s also about being able to remain relational with other people in your life, right? So when we’re raising kids and we’re having to make money decisions, that’s going to evoke all kinds of money stuff. We’re having to plan family vacations, multi-generational with our siblings and our parents. That’s going to bring up stuff.

[00:13:26] Linzy: Yes.

[00:13:27] Ed: When we’re going home for the holidays, right, when we’re in the workplace. Now, of course, like with intimacy, there’s always degrees of boundaries and vulnerability, but that’s where some of that flexibility can come into play, too, because in the workplace there’s certain boundaries that are probably more appropriate for what we talk about or not talk about. But when we come into the home space, how does that change? So that’s where we need subtlety and nuance.

[00:13:52] Linzy: That’s really interesting. You know, you mentioned families and trips. This is something that I’ve never fully thought about before, but if I think about, for instance, my brother and I have very different relationships with money. And even though at some points in our lives we have been extremely fortunate to be gifted identical amounts of money by family, you know, as inheritances or gifts, our relationship to that money has been very different, and our relationship to money continues to be very different. Part of it is that our financial reality is maybe a little bit different, but not massively. Because money is about, you know, you’re thinking about like, do you solve this problem with moneyDo you stay in hotels? Do you buy an air mattress to sleep on the floor? Are we eating out? How many things are we doing? All of those decisions you have to make as a family when you are spending time together are financial decisions.

[00:14:36] Ed: Right. And there’s so many of those decisional points right? And our base frame of reference for what we feel comfortable with can be very different from our siblings. And this is yet another place where sibling dynamics also is a huge factor. I didn’t mention this in my intro, but it really is a massive driver for why I ended up in this work because I got Dash, took on the responsibility, the role of being the financially responsible brother and my brother got Dash took on the role of being the financially irresponsible brother.

[00:15:07] Linzy: Yes.

[00:15:07] Ed: And so that sibling polarization around money is very common, you know? And the classic parental refrain is, they came from the same family, how could they end up so different? Well, you came at different times in the family developmental story. You had different experiences in the family story. You try to find your own place in the family story, right? So all of these factors are setting up your relationship with money, also, and then if we keep weaving back to like, well, my spouse also has their familial relationships and their sibling relationships, and they’re looking at how I’m managing my sibling relationships.

[00:15:41] And so this is another piece of that intimacy opportunity breakdown is, well, maybe I want to support my little brother to do this thing, my spouse doesn’t love that. We’re living in this family system while navigating our intimate relationship. And so this is why it gets so complicated, and I think why money becomes taboo is we don’t have the relational skills foundationally, and then because we don’t have those, we can’t apply them into financial decision making

[00:16:07] Linzy: Yeah, ’cause I’m thinking too you know, as you’re describing this family, my brain is like trying to come up with a visual of like, how do we even understand this? It’s just like this web of stories, right? Because your story and your partner’s story, you know, might be directly repelling as we said.

[00:16:20] Ed: Uhhuh,

[00:16:21] Linzy: But connected to that is your relationship to your sibling story and your parents and then there’s going to be all these other,individual factors that you’ve experienced around finances, like your own individual experiences, and depending what field you went into, you know, what kind of education or lack of education you get around money, what kind of messaging? It’s a very complex ecosystem that we are living within as we’re trying to navigate these, you know, financial relationships with people.

[00:16:44] Ed: When I know you just went down, I think you said the ACA conference. I was just at the Psychotherapy Networker conference. And I loved your booth. I saw that you had the nice therapy set-up. That office.

[00:16:52] Linzy: Therapy office.

[00:16:53] Ed: It was phenomenal, I loved it.

[00:16:54] Linzy: Was so comfy. I was so glad we had that couch.

[00:16:57] Ed: I’m totally going to try to steal that design. I don’t know. Make it, I’ll make it my own. I’ll make it my own, I

[00:17:01] Linzy: It’s a great idea. You’re welcome to have it.

[00:17:03] Ed: But what we did is we turned our table sideways in our little cubby booth, and then we had genograms up. And the whole setup, it was like three, you know, big post-it note things. And I drew three different family constellations with a few money symbols.

[00:17:18] Linzy: Hmm.

[00:17:19] Ed: As you’re talking about, like how do I frame and organize this information? I think we go back to one of those foundational tools that we learned, which is genogramming, right? And recognizing that we are living in a complex system and so this is part of the balance that I think most of us are navigating with finances is what am I responsible for and what am I not responsible for financially?

[00:17:39] Linzy: Totally, and I think too,thinking about a family and the genogram, there’s all these cultural factors too, right? Of like, based on, also migration like my partner’s family migrated, which means you lose a lot of career and financial status when you migrate, and then there’s sending money home to family and that sense of like responsibility, which is a very different history than my family who’ve been in one place for a long time. So it’s like, again, just all these factors that come into play. I love the idea of the genograms and I am curious, what are some of those symbols? Like, what do you find is the important information to put as you’re thinking about your own family genogram around money.

[00:18:15] Ed: Yeah, some of the most common ones that people connect with are social class issues. And so, you know, oftentimes if we say they grew up in a wealthy family, then I’ll put like three or four money

[00:18:24] Linzy: Got it.

[00:18:25] Ed: Like if they grew up with no money, then I’ll put like a money sign with a slash through it. If they talk about relationships being lost over money, then I’ll, draw lines between the two relationship and then like a cutoff with a money symbol or like controlled by money money’s used, like, then we’ll use the wavy lines to show that.Financial infidelity as a term that we’ve talked about. So I’ll just write FI between two people because financial secrets are endemic and intimate relationships. And,there is a difference between financial secret keeping and financial privacy and intimate relationships. So yeah, those are some of the most common themes. You’ve mentioned inheritance. Inheritance is a topic that comes up quite a lot.

[00:19:07] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:19:08] Ed: Another one that’s surprised me in this work that’s come up more. If I had endless energy, time, and money, I would go down so many paths. But is wrongful injury or death money?

[00:19:18] Linzy: Oh yeah.

[00:19:20] Ed: Right, and so like this is a podcast for therapists, but like I’ve worked with a number of therapists where they’ve received wrongful injury money. What has that meant, and how has that set expectations, in the context of all these other moving pieces and like, oh, my partner’s the business person, so I’m going to let them manage the taxes for my private practice, but they are more accommodating, anxious attachment style, and so I’m spending money on the family. They can’t tell me no. So they just funnel more of the tax reserve money over to keep floating it, but then when tax time shows up, there’s no money left.

[00:20:06] Linzy: Good explosion sound.

[00:20:07] Ed: Yes, and so, right, but it’s like that sense of what am I responsible for? What are you responsible for? Every couple has it around money, and a lot of times it is based on acquired cultural community expectations and so, there’s so many money layers to be unpacked or worked through in financial therapy.

[00:20:30] Linzy: Yeah, and for therapists listening, why is it important for them to work on their own financial intimacy skills. What does that mean for us as therapists?

[00:20:41] Ed: I think it’s Jung. That is, I’m coming back to this phrase, but you know, what is unconscious you will call fate or destiny. Something along, like, I’m probably distorting it, right? 

[00:20:51] Linzy: But I get the gist.

[00:20:53] Ed: I think most therapists, you’ll know where I’m going with this. So it’s like if we’re not conscious of our own relationship and experience with money and then working through it, especially if we use that trauma lens, like how is it stored in our nervous system? How is it stored in our amygdala? And then how is it stored in our prefrontal cortex? And we’ve gotta get all of those systems working and integrated together. So that we can actually feel calm and at ease when we go to talk about money, not dysregulated.

[00:21:19] Linzy: Yes.

[00:21:20] Ed: So for our own lives, the other phrase that comes to my mind is sometimes therapists get tied to the chair, right? It is because they know when their butt’s in the chair, they’re making 150 bucks an hour, 200 bucks an hour, two 50, whatever your hourly rate is and unfortunately the math gets pretty easy at that point. It’s like, okay, if I see 15 patients times my hourly rate, this is what I get for the day and if I do this, then I get this. It’s a very cause and effect kind of experience. That’s great, but it can leave you trapped if you’re not also thinking about: how do I set aside this money to build wealth. This word that many therapists are uncomfortable with having. And reviewing. The more comfortable you can get with your money, the easier it’s going to be to feel like you truly are doing the therapy ’cause you love doing it, not because you need the money, but I think many therapists are saying, I love doing the therapy and it’s not about the money, but privately, secretly they’re sitting on a lot of financial anxiety and fear.

[00:22:21] Linzy: Well, and we all need money.

[00:22:23] Ed: It’s inescapable.

[00:22:25] Linzy: You might not be in it to buy a yacht, but you do need to buy groceries and send your kids to school and pay your bills and, as you say, save for the future, right? So there is this piece of it where, kind of like food, you can’t just opt out. We all have to be engaging with it regardless of how much you actually want to,pay attention to it.

[00:22:47] Ed: Yeah, I think that is so beautifully said, and it is just interesting to think about like the literature and the people that therapists are drawn to read or admire or put on a pedestal. And some of them are ones that have taken vows of poverty

[00:23:03] Linzy: Yes.

[00:23:03] Ed: Right? As the way to kind of enlightenment or wellbeing, and so like wellbeing and poverty have sometimes been deeply associated.

[00:23:14] Linzy: Yeah, it’s this martyrdom vein that runs through a lot of the ways that we talk. And,I think too, like purity and goodness, like there’s lots and, you know, for some folks that will have a specific religious flavor, for other folks not, but yeah, it’s so easy, I think too, to fall into this, like, working hard is good. Giving is good, Right. And a lot of things that I notice about many therapist type people is that many of us have been caregivers in some way, shape or form for our whole lives and we’re pretty obsessed with being good. Good is safe.

[00:23:44] Right. Like I know for myself as a child, I learned that good is safe if I’m helpful, if I’m smart, if I can help this person over, you know, in the corner to party, maybe I don’t really fit in, but I’m, you know, giving value. I like, I can be here, you know? So I think that many of us unconsciously are driven by this need to be good and what is good and we’re troubled by the idea that we might not be good,that maybe we want more than we are allowed to have, maybe more than the minimum, more than getting by. We can be so constrained, when we don’t actually just stop and acknowledge that we’re humans who have our own needs, and maybe our own wants, and maybe our own desires and that’s actually really important that we live those things. Not just to be therapists and practice what we preach ’cause we’re not telling our clients, like, have you ever considered just sacrificing yourself and giving it all away? Like, we don’t tell them to do that, but often we’re sitting in. 

[00:24:30] Ed: Actually, we’re trying to get them to stop doing that. 

[00:24:31] Linzy: Yeah, we’re doing the opposite. Right? But not only is it like practicing what we preach, but it’s also having a life you actually enjoy. Right? Like, have the life your clients think that you have. If we’re not willing to be with the fact that money is part of our life and we need it, it’s really hard to get there, to that place where it’s actually working for you.

[00:24:49] Ed: Yes, 100% and I think the thing that comes from my mind is just acknowledging and holding space for the fact that many therapists have experienced financial trauma, amongst other forms of trauma. And this is not just about folks that maybe grew up in poverty, like that’s one piece but there are people, clients I’ve worked with that have grown up in great affluence that have just as much financial trauma.

[00:25:12] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:25:12] Ed: And so it’s expanding our paradigm to say it doesn’t matter where you land on the SES you’re going to have faced financial adversity. And like, it’s about how your nervous system has wired the story about what money feels like and what it means relationally ’cause money is inherently relational and so we’ve gotta hold space for that as well.

[00:25:36] Ed: You know, money can be used to control, to manipulate, to feel shame.

[00:25:42] Linzy: To betray.

[00:25:42] Ed: To betray, to motivate, to encourage, to create joy and bonding like money can is interwoven into every human way of being.

[00:25:52] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Agreed, and it makes me think about, you know, the money as a tool is something that some of my students come to by the time they work through maybe with trauma therapy, work through some of the trauma. They come to the point where it’s like, money’s a tool. I get to use it. But all tools can be used for good and creativity and love and joy and all tools could also be used to cause harm, right. That’s the nature of any tool.

[00:26:14] Ed: Yeah, absolutely. When I think about it, if we can even maybe use our relationship today as part of this conversation, right? It’s both. I’m really enjoying this conversation with Linzy. This is fantastic. Fun podcast. And what really motivated us both to be here. We both have businesses that we’re trying to grow. We’re trying to support other people, and we’re hoping that our lives will be enriched both relationally and financially by recording this both and

[00:26:38] Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah. And I’m just thinking of a student yesterday on a call in my course Money Skills Therapist who was talking about feeling “the ick” about networking. ‘Cause it’s like, yeah, I want to meet them and I like them, but we also both know that I’m there, you know, to get clients right. So isn’t that disingenuous? Like, isn’t that a bit deceitful, to do that? My question would be, what would be your, your response to that. Because I know what I said. But I’m curious, how would you reply to that?

[00:27:03] Ed: Yeah, well, I’m glad to be saying this and to have this conversation and I’m curious what you said because I think this is, that part of that context and subtlety is like, especially in the business context, in the professional context. It’s okay to want to meet people to advance your career and to advance theirs and to make money. That’s part of the social contract. And so I think it’s understandable you might feel that way because the purpose of family, by and large, is not about advancing your financial interests. And as I say that, paradoxically it is because every family is not designed to turn a profit, like from a peer business standpoint, right?

There’s usually a richer, fuller dynamic of what it means to be and why we’re a family,but this is part of what we’re talking about is like, and yet if we don’t tend to the financial needs of the family, the family has a very hard time functioning. And so being clear about what are the financial motives and needs, both in the family world and the business or professional realm, is okay. Let’s talk about that. Let’s normalize that we have financial needs in these different contexts. The same with friendships. It’s like you may not be making best friends with them because you know they have social status, but maybe you are.

[00:28:15] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:17] Ed: And maybe that’s okay because maybe they see something valuable in you as well. And even if you’re in that friendship context, you’re still going to have to make shared financial decisions. Whether you go to lunch together, coffee together, how often you do it. If you go on trips together, don’t go on trips together, like all the things, do you buy each other gifts? Do you not buy each other gifts?

[00:28:37] Linzy: Still, even in friendship, there’s a financial aspect to that relationship.

[00:28:41] Ed: In every relationship.

[00:28:43] Linzy: Yeah, your answer then to the student about networking would be?

[00:28:50] Ed: So this is more the blunt answer: Get over it.

[00:28:55] Linzy:  Oh, that was blunt.

[00:28:57] Ed: Yeah, that’s why I prefaced it ’cause I was like, that’s not that’s not the therapeutic approach.

[00:29:01] Linzy: Let’s soften and nuance before the thing I really want to say, 

[00:29:04] Ed: Which is just get over it, which, there’s that part of me right that just wants to be direct, but I realize it’s like. Really if I’m in a relationship with that person and let’s talk about those fears. What experiences have you had around networking? Where has networking been slimy to you in the past.

[00:29:20] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:20] Ed: Maybe it was your parents. You know, I’ve had clients talk about, they get brought to their parents’ professional meetings. They get pranced around as the cute little girl or boy. So if there’s some negative associations around networking, then let’s bring those surfaces up. Let’s work with them and acknowledge them so that you can come in as your authentic, full, competent self, not as the child self, or the wounded itself.

[00:29:45] Linzy: Absolutely, and we’ll all have so many child selves and wounded selves of various ages and stages that we carry within, right? That is going to have different reactions to different situations… And so I often find that even just identifying that is a powerful spot to start, which is like, oh, this is really bringing up that thing that happened when I was five, where my parents would parade me around,like a little prop and that felt really terrible, right? And we need to stop and be with those things. We can’t just pass it over and push it aside. We need to actually do whatever processing works for us in our nervous system to just help us ground in the fact that was terrible. and it was really uncomfortable and you didn’t have a voice to do something about it when you were five and now you’re an adult, and the circumstances have changed.

[00:30:27] Ed: I think the other thing too, right,So I just want to own and thank you for welcoming that blunt part of me that showed up out of like, hello, blunt part. Hi, whoa, where did you come from? Nice to see you. Glad you’re here for the conversation, but like, let’s bring this back around to the more real, authentic conversation that networking is about social engagement and connection and depending, for me, I look heavily through the lens of attachment theory. I know there’s plenty of different lenses to look through, but if we had problems socializing through our developmental experiences and joining in friendship groups and knowing where we stand or don’t stand,  and now we’re having to go back into social environments where we’re meeting a sea of strange faces for the first time. It can bring up a lot of those relational wounds about will they accept me? Will they think I’m valuable? Will they think I’m good enough, smart enough, what have you. And so if those are part of your pain points, then how do we work with those to help you feel more confident when you show up in the networking space? And so I think there’s a lot of opportunity there.

[00:31:30] Linzy: That’s a great answer. I like it. So I know that something that you offer too with this beautiful combination of background that you have. Thinking about that blunt part, I was like, is this a firefighter part? I was hearing that a little bit or at least firefighter adjacent. 

[00:31:41] Ed: Right. Right. Yeah. 

[00:31:45] Linzy: So I know that you have this methodology of therapy informed financial planning, which is so exciting for me to hear I love crossovers. Crossovers are so good. So tell me about what that is.

[00:31:59] Ed: Yeah so I like to think about it like a nice table, right? So across the top you have the standard financial planning topics. So the standard financial planning topics are cashflow or spending and expenses. Then it moves over to retirement planning, and then investments, and then taxes, and then insurance, and then estate planning, and if relevant, education funding. And as a financial planner, we get pretty deep knowledge in all of those areas. All the rules, the recommendations, expectations. And we’re trying to weave those things together to get them to create a coherent story and narrative about where you’re going and what opportunities you have. Okay, that’s great, but then we have humans down the column,

[00:32:44] Linzy: Yes.

[00:32:45] Ed: right? And so then we have foundational communication patterns that show up in each of these headings. For me, we have our attachment system that shows up in each of these systems. Then we have how our brain is wired, that shows up then we have our family financial system that’s all showing up in each of these topics. 

[00:33:06] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:08] Ed: Then we have our trauma histories and mental health status. That shows up in all of these places. Then we have our developmental stages that we’ve reached, and there’s different developmental models that I think through each there, and then social class is a huge piece.Now, the one that I haven’t gone into yet because I have my own anxiety about it is gender identity and money.

[00:33:34] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:33:34] Ed: Massive topic. Absolutely huge topic, but that is part of like… I’m aware of it, we do talk about it, but like those are the big headings of spaces that I’m thinking through. How do these lenses help inform how you’re moving through any one of the row headings, so you’re saving and spending or your investments or your estate planning, and so like in a very practical way, a couple that I’m working with where her family had owned land for a couple of generations. She went off, got married, lived her life, struggled for 20 years, then finally got stable into a government, decent education, but low pay. Husband also finally stabilized into their mid forties late mid fifties, mom dies. Inherit $2 million worth of land. They’ve never had that much, and now they don’t know what to do with it. What does this mean? Who am I? Who are you? I thought I would have to keep working in the government job, but maybe I don’t now.

[00:34:39] Linzy: Yeah, right.

[00:34:41] Ed: Relief, but terror.

[00:34:42] Linzy: Totally.

[00:34:43] Ed: Right? And there’s trauma stories around half siblings that are no longer alive, that aren’t benefiting from this land. So it’s all mine. And so there’s guilt about that. And so like the traditional financial planner might look at this scenario and be like, oh, okay, well, so you could retire. We could sell this land. We could convert it into this much income flow for you, and this is what you could live on. What do you think? Okay, you only need half of that? Cool, then we’ll sell half the land. Bada bing bada boom; we’re done. Well for my clients that’s not a sufficient answer.

[00:35:15] Linzy: There’s much deeper questions happening here and a piece that I’m hearing there too is identity, right? You said that like, who am I? Right? If I was kind of a stable but low paid government worker and that’s been who I am, and now I have $2 million, like who am I? Am I still that person? You know, was I ever that person? Yeah, I can just see so much that would get stirred up by, you know, that kind of financial, I’m going to call it an upheaval. We know it’s probably the best kind of upheaval, but still for your nervous system and your life, it is a huge disruption to what was normal.

[00:35:51] Ed: From an identity continuity perspective, it’s a massive shock. Now, and this is where the real shame often happens is because most people would say, well, congratulations. Like, not, congratulations, your mom died, but like, aren’t you excited to have this. 

[00:36:05] Linzy: Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

[00:36:07] Ed: Positive thing. There’s a lot of identity issues complicated by the meaning around this land and assets because, oh by the way, they lived on the land.

[00:36:15] Linzy: Yes.

[00:36:16] Ed: And so the memories associated with it are one set, and then their partner who came to the land as an adult and met them has a whole totally different set of associations of meaning.

[00:36:26] Linzy: Sure.

[00:36:27] Ed: And so they’re advocating, for one, for keeping the land and the other feels ambivalent. Conflict. What do we do? And so how do we help them work through and come to a place together where they feel, and this circles back to that financial intimacy is like, how do we get to a place where you both feel good about how you decide to do with this land? And we don’t have to rush this decision.

[00:36:48] Linzy: Totally. Yeah, and that work that you do, is that financial planning? Like is it in the financial planning bucket? Is it therapy? Like what is that?

[00:36:59] Ed: Yeah, so this is a great question, right? It’s an open and ongoing process and conversation. So for me, I want practice integratively, right? I want to bring the therapy skills and knowledge right into the planning process. And so when I’m doing that in the therapy informed financial planning process, I charge a retainer of $600 a month for that and then if it can go up from there if there’s money to be managed, but that’s because I’m spending the in session time with folks and I’m usually out of the session doing analysis research, right? And so I find that the retainer model works really well for that. For some clients, as the firm is growing and I’m bringing on other practitioners, have Dr. Christine Hargrove, who has her PhD from UGA is a specialist in ADHD and money, and she’s a therapist. And so she stays in the financial therapy lane. She’s not getting into tax planning, she’s not figuring out how’s your investment allocation? Is it accurate for you? She will get into cash flow.

Like that’s just basic stuff. So some of the more technical financial planning topics, not even part of her purview. But she’s really about how are you navigating money for yourself? What feelings, identity stuff comes up, emotions, behaviors. And she stays in that lane and helps people get more confident. Now on the other side, I have a financial planner that I’ve hired who’s 15 years of wealth management experience, knows all the ins and outs of wealth management, and she’s developing some of the therapy skills, but she’s really focused on helping people walk through the planning process. She’s not as deeply focused on understanding. She’s learning about how humans learn, heal, and grow, but that’s not her super strength. 

[00:38:42] Ed: So I’m fostering that piece for her, but also knowing there’s going to be limits on what she’s able to do in the context of financial planning.

[00:38:50] Linzy: Sure.

[00:38:50] Ed: So the reality is, Linzy, there’s just not going to be many people that want to be a full financial planner and a full therapist integrated. And I’m like, but I’m going to change that. We’ll, we will change that. We’re going to…

[00:39:01] Linzy: For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:03] Ed: You know, and like that’s where the field of financial therapy and the association is so helpful. I was listening to another industry podcast, and this guy’s been a financial planner for 15 years and went back, and got his marriage and family therapy degree. And so what people don’t realize is in the field of therapists, though, there are a number of us that have business backgrounds and finance backgrounds but they’ve never been invited to integrate that knowledge and experience into their therapy practice. So that’s why I love, love the work you’re doing. Sorry, I just have to say like, I’m so excited that you’re bringing them together.

[00:39:34] Linzy: Yes, yeah, I’m also one of those crossover kids. We’ve, even in our marketing used a Venn diagram where it’s like people who are like passionate about money and finance and like people who are really into feelings and like the overlap between those two, and there’s this very small slice that like you and I occupy, and I’ve met some other folks out there who often go on to become like financial therapists or have that background and then switch careers like…

There’s not a huge overlap, because I think it’s two different types of intelligence, really. Like it’s two different areas to get really fired up and it just happens to be, do you have a brain that really enjoys both of those things? And I did a lot of learning last year about giftedness and the one definition of giftedness that I ascribe to is when you have multiple kinds of intelligence so you can bring together these very distinct ways of thinking or skill sets in this new, unique way. And that’s what I really hear that you’re doing here, right? If you’re bringing together these two things that often are siloed and you’re integrating them because they’re so connected that it’s better to have those conversations just at the same time.

[00:40:36] Ed: In an integrated way, and I think it is possible. I think we don’t have the learning environments to do it yet. I think that’s what the field of financial therapy is helping to change is, you know, like structurally, the business school is a completely different college than the School of Humanities most of the time.

[00:40:54] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:40:55] Ed: And so maybe as an undergraduate you get a little bit of overlap in classes, but like not often and usually at that developmental stage, you’re maybe not so interested in the other side of things.

[00:41:04] Linzy: No, I remember even leaning very hard towards the end of high school, I took the minimum amount of math classes required. As soon as I was done, I was like, see ya.

[00:41:13] Ed: Bye.

[00:41:15] Linzy: I even had this amazing math teacher,Mr. Aero who, when I told him I wasn’t taking any more mathematics, he said in some, I can’t remember the exact wording. It was a while ago. but something like, like, that was a great tragedy to like mathematics, that I wouldn’t be there.

[00:41:28] Ed: Oh, ouch. No.

[00:41:30] Linzy: But again, similar to what you’re saying, like I was just, at that point in my life, I was really leaning into my arts side and writing and being able to do as much of that as possible. It can be hard to cultivate those skill sets at the same time.

[00:41:43] Ed: Yeah, I for me at least, right. Part of our developmental journey is usually we have to split off parts of ourself to become more focused on one part and part of the big art of adult development from my perspective, is to be able to become whole again and integrate all these pieces that we have the capacity to actually be interested in, but we shut them down by usually a lot of relational, cultural conditioning, and so reclaiming our full humanity and capacity to engage with all of these pieces is part of the process, too.

[00:42:16] Linzy: I’m going to make that your mic drop quote. We’re going to wrap up there. That was good. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. This has been such a treat, such a great conversation. If folks want to get further into your world, learn more about you, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:42:29] Ed: Yeah, all the best things are at Healthy Love and money.com. There’s an active blog, there’s an active podcast, and then of course the professional services are listed there as well.

[00:42:38] Linzy: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[00:42:41] Ed: Linzy, it’s been a delight. Thank you.

[00:42:54] Linzy: I so appreciate Ed bringing his specific kind of backpack full of different knowledge and perspectives onto the podcast today. I was chatting with him after the podcast about how I do feel like we’re both kind of financial pioneers, in these spaces, bringing our own blends of skills and also our interests. And I so appreciate Ed really bringing his crossover skills as a therapist and a financial planner to couples around money. I know so many therapists that I work with in Money Skills for Therapists or Money Skills for Group Practice Owners have their own world of stuff happening with their partner around money.

[00:43:30] So it’s so important and foundational that we work on our own relationships with money, that we’re able to be with money, as Ed was talking about, be able to notice all the different aspects of our lives that have impacted our relationship with money start to shift and change how we feel about money and what I teach is helping you have those systems in your business to then make money really work and make sure that it goes where you want it to go. You’re getting paid well, all those foundational, practical things. But then there’s this whole other aspect to money around your intimate relationship. And as Ed mentioned, even your intimate relationships, relationships with siblings and parents and friends where money also comes into play. So just such rich, rich territory here to explore. A very loaded territory, of course, for all of us, but I so appreciate Ed bringing this topic today and starting to help us like understand just all the nuance that goes into money and why money can be so hard, but that also helps us see all the spots where we can intervene and change how we talk about money, with the people that we love. So thank you to Ed for coming on the podcast.

[00:44:33] If you’re interested in working with me, I have two courses for therapists to help you change your relationship with money, really get it working for you in your practice. Our foundational course is Money Skills for a Therapist. This is our course for solo practitioners. The gateway into that course is my masterclass, which is called the four Step Framework to Getting Your Private Practice Finances in order. You can think about that as like my intake process. That’s where I will walk you through. The biggest mistakes that therapists make in their private practice. I will walk you through my framework with how I help therapists change their relationship with money and get it working for them. And that’s also your invite to work with me and Money Skills For Therapists. So if you are curious about working with me, check out the masterclass. The link is in our show notes to learn more about money skills for therapists. Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is for folks as it says, running a group practice, that is a course that I only run once or twice a year, so if you’re interested in that course, you can click on the link in the show notes to get on the wait list to make sure you hear about it the next time the door’s open for money skills group practice owners,

[00:45:30] That is my course that helps you be the empowered financial leader of your group practice ’cause just like Ed was talking about money and families, money and group practice is just a much more complicated beast. There’s a lot more going on and we dig into all of that in Money Skills For Group Practice Owners.

[00:45:44] So thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Megan: The investors and the founders at times look into the mental health system and they see all these therapists who are working at a community mental health system and being wildly underpaid they’re seeing, the dollar signs kind of fly away. I think the mistake they make is that the therapists themselves do not also see those dollar signs flying away. Therapists are not idiots. They know exactly how much they’re worth. It’s not an inefficiency, it’s an intentional donation.

[00:00:23] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is with Megan Cornish. Megan Cornish is a social worker turned writer who works with some large, venture funded online platforms and in her work has really become aware of the way that some of these large platforms who we are not going to explicitly name in this episode, to be clear, are exploiting therapists and are a risk to therapists and the impact on the therapy industry. So today, Megan and I talk about how these companies tend to work. These are venture backed, where there’s lots of funding that’s going into these large companies, that make mental health care accessible, but don’t necessarily pay therapists.

[00:01:31] We talk about some of the risks that come with working with these companies. If you are working with these companies, how to get the most out of it, right? What are productive ways that you can work with these companies to protect yourself? How to be savvy about what companies to work with, what not to, and we talk about her online community, which is about sharing this information to make sure that therapists, we protect ourselves, from large tech that is coming into our space and isn’t interested in mental health outcomes and isn’t interested in our wellbeing but who answers to their investors? and that is what they are set up to do. So a very informative conversation today. We cover a lot of ground. Megan brings in a lot of knowledge about startups and tech and how these venture capital businesses work. That has certainly been new information to me, and I think will be new information to most folks listening helpful for us to understand who’s coming into our space and how they work and what their metrics of success are, and what we can do to work with them productively, and also protect ourselves and our industry against them.

[00:02:26] Here is my conversation with Megan Cornish. So, Megan, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:40] Megan: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:41] Linzy: I am very excited to have you here. We have had our kind of pre-chat thinking about having this conversation a long time ago and so it’s been on my mind but before we dig in, and there’s so much to dig into,

[00:02:52] Megan: Yes.

[00:02:52] Linzy: Can you tell folks a little bit about your trajectory and what you do?

[00:02:57] Megan: Yeah, absolutely. So I’m a licensed clinical social worker. I started with my bachelor’s degree in social work and worked in nursing homes and stuff, and very quickly was like, I need to go get my master’s so I can do more direct kind of care type things. So I got my master’s and I spent several years finding out where I wanted to land and landed in my social work dream job, which was embedded in a school district doing therapy with,middle schoolers and high schoolers and I was on a teacher contract so I didn’t have to deal with insurance.

[00:03:23] It was a dream and then covid happened, which is a line in most people’s stories. My husband, who was a charge nurse of an ICU in the northwest, decided that he wanted to go back to school, to increase his skillset. So we moved across the country to North Carolina, and we sold our house to fund that move and I had two kids at the time, couldn’t really find a social work job that I could just jump right into that would pay as much as I would pay in childcare. So we’re kinda like, I’m going to try and just live off this budget that we have for three years and see, I’ve always kind of had a writing side hustle just to make like coffee money and stuff. You know, it was always just like, I’ll write your blog for, you know, a hundred bucks and,so I was like, I’ll see if I can expand our budget with this. Started doing that, was writing a lot of random stuff,and was looking at all these mental health companies that were arriving on the scene and reading some of their blogs and their emails andI was pretty sure that they did not have a therapist on the team because they would make these really obvious mistakes or these statements. I’m like, a therapist would not and should not ever say that. 

[00:04:23] Linzy: Yes.

[00:04:24] Megan: I just started reaching out and said, Hey, like, I noticed you said X. Really, you should say Y. Here’s y. Can I help you? And they were like, “yes, please.” So I started getting a lot of interesting work writing blogs, just doing some research on new topics and interviewing therapists and they were presenting that view, and that’s kind of how I got my start. Now I’ve gotten to work with a lot of interesting companies like Elios and Alma, and, I’ve had like short term contracts like ULA and Grow, just mostly writing content,like blogs and or, um,occasionally I get a fun consulting job where I get to tell them everything they’re doing wrong. So I like that one.

[00:05:01] Linzy: Fun. Yeah. And all these companies, ’cause I’m actually not familiar with this whole landscape all the companies that you’re naming are, how would you describe what these companies are?

[00:05:09] Megan: So there’s a wide variety of companies. I actually have a Venn diagram hanging up here. On the left are companies that you work for. On the right are companies that work for you, and in the middle are companies that kind of work for you and you work for them. So on the left we’re going to talk about, like, Headspace. Those companies you work for, or Charlie Health, you’re going to get hired. They’re going to provide everything. You’re going to do things according to the way that they want it done. On the right are tools, like simple practice or out practice or mental health match, all these companies that are going to help you with different parts of your practice. And in the middle you’ve got Alma or Octave, where they’re going to give you some tools and you’re going to be a contractor, but also you’re going to probably have to do some marketing yourself or that

[00:05:49] Linzy: Okay.

[00:05:50] Megan: So I’ve worked with all three categories.

[00:05:52] Linzy: Yes. Okay, and all of these categories, if we were going to summarize, like they’re kind of like tech in the therapist space.

[00:06:00] Megan: Yeah. Mental health tech.

[00:06:02] Linzy: Yes. Okay. Mental health tech startups. Okay so that’s kind of the umbrella. And as you said, it’s everything from companies that create the container that you can work within. Like basically kind of almost like an online group practice to like the tools that we use to this kind of blend, this blend in the middle. There’s been a lot of discussion about these kinds of companies, which I feel like is a lot of discussion that sometimes we are emotional and confused, but not necessarily clear on what is happening with these companies.

[00:06:26] What is the story here? And so I’m curious from your perspective of having worked with many of these companies and being a therapist who’s also interfacing with kind of the business side of these companies, like why should therapists care about the fact that these tech companies are coming into the therapy space?

[00:06:45] Megan: This is a great question. Therapists should absolutely care,and pay attention to what’s happening because the more that I see what’s happening, the more I’m convinced that these companies don’t actually have to succeed for very long on their own merits. They just have to outlast private practices,because they’re putting a ton of money into marketing. So let me explain how a startup happens. Venture capital is the name, this form of investing that says we need to find the Googles.

[00:07:11] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:11] Megan: Ubers and invest in them so we can make a lot of money, but there’s a problem that there’s a lot of startups who say that they’re going to be Google and like you’re not really sure if it’s the right time or right place, or even a good idea. So they end up giving tons of money to hundreds of startups,and only one or two of them need to be the next Google to make back all that money and more. But as a rule, they have to throw only money at startups that profess to have the potential to make that kind of money. Otherwise, if you don’t think you can make that kind of money, then why would they give you investment dollars? And the amount of return that these investors want is like,they want to see that you have at least an 80% profit margin. That’s like what they’re shooting for, which is wild, especially in healthcare.

[00:07:56] The reason why venture funding has gotten any traction at all, even outside the mental health space, is there are a lot of really good ideas that only work if you have a lot of money to start. With social media being an example,no one’s going to be on Facebook if the only people on Facebook are in your neighborhood Like say, Hey, get on Facebook. They had a really good idea. They got some some traction., but to make it really explode the way it did, they had to have advertising dollars to get everybody on it, and that’s what made it valuable

[00:08:23] Megan: Or if you have a tech that’s highly expensive to produce or to design. And then you can replicate it. So, software especially is like that. Software might take a lot of money to design the first time, but then you can sell it an infinite number of times. So that’s kind of the model that they’re looking for. 

[00:08:37] Linzy: Right. So there’s this huge front end investment of money that goes into that. 

[00:08:41] Megan: Exactly. So mental health,tech especially the ones that provide therapy. I think they are just having to doubt less private practice because I know that the amount of money they’re spending on marketing is not sustainable. I mean, anyone who’s listened to a podcast these days had just heard an ad for a certain company, I won’t name because I don’t want to. 

[00:08:59] Linzy: Yeah. Me neither.

[00:09:00] Megan: They spend so much money on advertising. They’re not making that much money back. They are assuming that they’re going to get the corner on the market, drive everyone else outta business and then they won’t need to spend as much on advertising because they’re going to be the biggest or the only player in the space. 

[00:09:13] Linzy: Right. So it’s kind of a plan to become a monopoly, right? Outspend everybody at the beginning, be the last company standing and then you can do whatever. ’cause you don’t have competitors.

[00:09:21] Megan: Exactly. Exactly

[00:09:23] Linzy: Which, yeah. 

[00:09:25] Megan: I hate what’s happening because therapists deserve better. They work hard. That’s their license on the wall. I am trying to find and understand more and explain more the ways that therapists can outlast these companies instead,as well as the companies only succeed.with therapists. It’s a total moral injury situation where it’s like, okay, I have to pay my bills. So do I work with this company or do I stand on principle? I know that everyone has to decide that for themselves, but as a group collective, there’s a lot more protections, especially if we move our work towards companies that are doing it, quote unquote the right way and away from companies that are determined to just slash and burn and take profit and all that.

[00:10:05] Linzy: Yeah. ’cause like the companies that are doing it the wrong way, who we will certainly not name because we don’t need that in our lives.

[00:10:10] Megan: A lot of litigation dollars too.

[00:10:12] Linzy: So those companies, what do you see are some of the moves that they start to make that hurt therapists? Because at the beginning I’m hearing there’s tons of advertising. There’s like this big, like the party’s over here, like everybody comes here and so they’re also, I’m assuming, going to be maybe treating their therapist a little better at the beginning. It’s a bit of a honeymoon phase, right? Like they’re trying to like, get everybody into the party. How does that sometimes play out, in the life of these companies?

[00:10:35] Megan: So, they start getting some traction as they move through their series. startups have series rounds. Which is funding, and they start with seed, which is just a little bit to get started. In every round you’re supposed to get a valuation to say how much you’re worth. And based on that, the investors will say, okay, well I’ll give you, you know, million, however many dollars for however many shares.

[00:10:59] To prove their valuations, to get those higher, they have to show their profit and loss. So the further they get, the more pressure they are from previous investors and potential future investors to prove that the value is high. So that means that they’re going to start cutting wages or try to increase productivity of their therapist by increasing caseloads and that’s the biggest thing I see. I mean, I heard someone, brag that their therapist had the option to go as low as 25 clients,

[00:11:28] Linzy: Wow.

[00:11:29] Megan: And I was like, I’m not so sure. You should be so proud of that.

[00:11:32] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

[00:11:33] Megan: That’s like, hard stop, almost high end. I mean, I’ve known a few therapists who just do tons and love it and, more powerful to them, but most people I know can’t manage that.

[00:11:41] Linzy: Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, certainly when I was a therapist, 16 was my max. yeah and that was like, I am done. I am toast. 

[00:11:48] Megan: Yeah, it’s totally different they want to play, I think, by the healthcare playbook, but I can go to a cardiologist and the next week I can go to different one and the next one I can go to a different one and they’ll just glance at my chart. They can pick up right where the last person left and therapy is not like that. 

[00:12:02] Linzy: No.

[00:12:03] Megan: Your therapist needs to remember and be present and I mean, I always tell people, can you imagine if you told some of your deepest darkest secrets in the next week? They were like. Like, I can’t remember what we talked about or like, can you Yeah.

[00:12:16] Linzy: Yeah, yeah, what you, what you have to hold is huge. I remember a friend of mine,went to a therapist and had a first session and talked about her life and talked about her moms and growing up, you know, having two moms and then the next week she comes back and the therapist was like, so, like, your mom and dad, dah, dah, dah. She was like, what? Like, you didn’t listen to anything I said, and yeah, the vulnerability that our clients bring to us, there’s so much labor that goes into the work that we do outside of that hour. To, hold and retain and process and be able to open up that page again when that client comes back in to do effective therapeutic work.

[00:12:49] Megan: Yeah and not to mention that having stress lowers our ability to carry that.

[00:12:54] Linzy: True story. Okay. So. I’m really curious. This piece about the 80% profit is sticking in my brain ’cause I’m like, what? That’s my initial response. ‘Cause when I think about the work that I do, say with group practice owners,who have practices that are in the hundreds of thousands or maybe low millions,when I’m talking to them about what a sustainable business looks like, I am encouraging them to hit that 10 to 15% profit.

[00:13:18] Right, like just that sustainable, like the oxygen normal I always tell them, if you’re higher than that, something’s going to break, right? Either you’re going to break, you’re underpaid, your team is underpaid, your systems are underdeveloped. You don’t have a big enough admin team. There’s something that’s breaking, is my impression. You know, if you start to be above that, like 15% max, we’re talking about businesses that are aiming for 80% profit. How do they even do that? Like, I’m thinking about the sessions, for instance. Are there therapists getting paid less than 20%? Like, help me understand how these numbers could even possibly work.

[00:13:51] Megan: It’s a question I ask, I, I told an investor once, I was like, I think that some of these founders are just taking you guys

[00:13:57] Linzy: Yeah. 

[00:13:58] Megan:Like that’s in these pitch sessions. There’s just no way so there is some logic to it. not great logic, but some of these companies have been able to negotiate higher rates because of system effects, because they’re not having ghost networks, that kind of stuff that, originally insurers were really excited about. And so insurance payers did not want to run afoul of these,parody laws, and they saw these companies as a good way to just in one fell swoop. Let’s just pay higher rates for these companies. They’ll take care of our access issues that are making it hard. At a certain point last year, it seemed like the payers realized that people having access to healthcare meant that people were going to indeed access use healthcare

[00:14:39] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:14:41] Megan: We’re like, wait a second, we actually don’t want to pay for this and so then they started retracting their higher rates,that’s still kind of up there. Some are still getting higher. Some are like losing their higher rates. It’s a market force that is just so unpredictable right now. So that’s one of the ways that they are justifying it. There’s talk about doing outcome-based reimbursements with payers, that kind of stuff, again. I wouldn’t say it’s a complete racket. I would say,occasionally there is a business that I know is just not going to work out and that any therapist with any brains would be able to say it’s not going to work out. There are some companies that I feel like are doing a really great job, and they’re just really trying to run it like shoestring budget for support as much as possible and that’s their angle and if they can make that work, more power to them. I’ve learned that I shouldn’t publicly state a company is good because a week or two later they’ll do something and then people come after me.

[00:15:36] Linzy: Yes. You are not, you are not part of those companies, and therefore you don’t control what they do.

[00:15:40] Megan: There are, there are a few that I have seen consistently try to make good decisions. So, there’s that.

[00:15:45] Linzy: Yeah, because just when I think about even that as a goal. 80% profit. And when you mention payers, just to clarify for folks listening,payers refers to insurance companies, right? So that’s the business phrase for it. I had somebody the other day I was chatting with, he was like, and it’s all about payers. I was like, sorry, what’s payers? He’s like insurance companies. I was like, oh, okay. so there’s this level of business speak that we don’t actually speak as therapists, right? Because we’re on the other side of the business equation. Like in the service delivery. There’s this whole world of the way that money moves between these companies that therapists we are totally disconnected from. and I feel like the term payer is a great example of that, so that’s where the money is, but yeah, ’cause like, I’m just going to stick here for one more second then I promise we’ll move on. If it’s 80% profit, let’s say a payer is compensating, an insurance company is paying, I dunno, $130 for that session, right? For the service that’s rendered, does that mean that the wage that the company is setting for the clinician is less than 20% of that reimbursement? 

[00:16:49] Megan: So that stat that I got, it’s from behavioral health business and it’s a quote from an investor who says 60, like that traditional, VC funds look for 80% business margins, but they will occasionally go down to 65%, which still

[00:17:03] Linzy: It’s still crazy, right? Yeah, because it’s just a great illustration there. I think of, first of all, as you say, some of it is a racket like that’s never going to work, but also it’s so disconnected from how healthcare works, right? And how the therapy industry works, where like the heavy lift of that is on the worker, the therapist, right? And we’re not doing work that is light and repeatable and that somebody else can just step in. We’re building therapeutic relationships with people that have to last for years sometimes to have effectiveness, certainly at least months and as we mentioned earlier, you have to remember if somebody has two moms or a mom and a dad, like stuff, like, that’s really important.

[00:17:36] The compensation for that work has to be high. Like we can’t work 40 hours a week. Yeah, we can’t even work 25 hours a week, most of us, without eventually just like, literally dying. That’s how I feel about it when I think about 25 hours a week. I’m like, oh, I could not. And so it kind of feels like they’re trying to cram a square peg in a round hole. Our industry doesn’t fit these rules of these unicorn companies that end up having like a billion dollar valuation. Healthcare is not very profitable and it shouldn’t be. 

[00:18:03] Megan: Yeah,

[00:18:04] Linzy: Because it’s not something that you can just copy paste a thousand times, right? Like, it’s not, like you said, like a software that you can make and then sell a hundred thousand times. It’s very specific, every single session is different and individual and catered and takes a huge amount of energy from the therapist. So it just seems like such a mismatch.

[00:18:21] Megan: A mismatch. Yes, it really does. I was talking to someone about this concept and they were explaining that,founders they’re looking for inefficiencies in systems and to solve that problem and in some way that also is profitable and I think what happens is the investors and the founders at times look into the mental health system and they see all these therapists who are working at like community mental health system and this being like wildly underpaid they’re seeing, the dollar signs kind of fly away from that situation. I think the mistake they make is that the therapists themselves do not also see those dollar signs flying away. Therapists are not idiots. They know exactly how much they’re worth, and they are intentionally donating their value to their

[00:19:06] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:07] Megan: Like it’s not an inefficiency, it’s an intentional donation, which is why, it always cracks me up when founders are so confused at why therapists are mad. Well, because if someone is getting rich off our work, it better damn well be us.

[00:19:19] Linzy: Yes, right, exactly,and that’s, such an important distinction to make is, you know, folks will choose to work for insurance companies or work in community mental health because they want to be accessible, but they’re choosing to earn less money in order to contribute to their community.

[00:19:34] Megan: Yeah, and to live according to them. 

[00:19:35] Linzy: Yeah, but that’s very different from watching some bro in California buy a second yacht off of your work. That doesn’t give you quite the same touchy feely loveliness that you might get from, you know, being able to work pro bono or in community mental health. Interesting. Okay, yes, so as therapists that are maybe already working with some of these companies, considering working with some of these companies. I often see this as a way that people are saying, I just want to get started in my practice. It’s scary to learn how to market and do finances and all these things when I can just plug myself into this platform that already works. If people are considering working with these companies already, how can they be savvy about navigating this landscape?

[00:20:16] Megan: Yeah. I think the most important thing is that therapists need to have their parachute ready.

[00:20:20] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:20:21] Megan: These things changed so quickly. Even the people that wrote the contract that you signed today might not be employed by that company in a few months. Things are going to change. Use the companies to serve your business, but always know that it’s your business and have your backup plan. If you’re going to work with them, identify the skills that are deficient enough that you feel like you have to work with them and be intentional about increasing those skills during your time there. Just be ready to leave and not look back when it becomes clear that they’re no longer setting you and your clients up for success. Your mileage may vary on this piece of advice, but I have recently started telling therapists,when you first start meeting a client, you should have your own website, first of all. When you first start meeting a client,just say, my clients are very important to me. I want you to know if ever there’s a time where I am abruptly gone from this company, that it may not be in my control, and you can reach out to me at my website.

[00:21:12] Linzy: Yes, yes.

[00:21:14] Megan: Because they’ve got weird non-compete agreements and you may not have access to your systems and stuff like that. I’ve heard stories of therapists literally logging on to find that they don’t have access anymore and there’s been an email sent out that says,your therapist is no longer with the company, but here’s three more therapists you can meet with as if they’re just interchangeable so that’s kind of like a safeguard

[00:21:32] Linzy: Right. Just like plant that seed from the beginning

[00:21:34] Megan: Exactly. Like, come find me online. Yes.

[00:21:38] Linzy: And I’m curious, you asked if my morals vary on that. Do you see folks feel like we should have a kind of allegiance to those companies and not tell people how to find us?

[00:21:48] Megan: No, I just,the miles may vary because I don’t want to tell anyone. I don’t know what the contracts say. I don’t want to give any advice that might get someone sued, but I think there’s probably ways to do it in a non

[00:22:02] Linzy: I think so and I think that, that, um, that beautiful, just in case, just so you know, if one day planting that seed,I think is very strategic and I, I love what you’re saying about have your parachute ’cause it makes me think about in the book, Radical Candor, she talks about like kind of two types of employees. There’s rock stars who stick around. They’re very loyal, like they’re there for the long run and then there’s shooting stars who are people who are passing through and what I’m hearing is you should always be a shooting star when you’re using these services. Like be part of that platform, because as you say, you’re like, okay, marketing is really hard for me.

[00:22:32] I need to hit the ground running, so I’m going to work for this, but then I’m also going to work on my marketing skills. It’s not actually a stable environment where you know that you can stay even if you want to. Let this be your pathway towards private practice to support you on that journey, but don’t, don’t plan to live there because what I’m hearing is like the furniture might get rearranged and there might be things totally changed overnight. You don’t have control over that business at all.

[00:22:53] Megan: Yeah, and often even the founders don’t. They might start with great intentions, but once investors get involved, there’s a board and you have to abide by the decisions of the board. 

[00:23:02] Linzy: I’m thinking about that um, who was that AI guy, who got fired suddenly and then I think they brought him back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s like, it can even be like your brainchild but once you get investors involved, they’re like, I don’t know. I think we need new leadership. Like, yeah,these are such fickle creatures.

[00:23:16] Megan: They bring in their tech bro playbook, which I’m sure worked really great if you were building tech, but mental health is another beast.

[00:23:24] Linzy: So for folks who then,already have a practice or know, like, okay, I’m working with these platforms now, but yes, I do want to get into my own practice. How can we protect our businesses and our practices against this larger force at play, right? Where there is like super cheap therapy available online. So conveniently, like, we have a lot of marketing to compete with, if nothing else. What can we do to protect our practices from this?

[00:23:48] Megan: I think that’s a good question.

[00:23:50] Linzy: So I started a Facebook group. It’s called Fit Check for Therapists. It’s not a burn-the-system-to-the-ground place, even though some people want it to be. It’s a “share information so that we can be wise about the companies that we work for” place. 

[00:24:05] Megan: So if you have a question about a company you’re interviewing with or you have information you want to share, you can hop on there. Hopefully I can keep that running as long as possible. I think doing your research asking good questions is good because strategically we need to outlast companies that don’t have our best interests in mind. So continuing to move towards companies that only make decisions that we agree with, who only make concessions that we can understand. And for the sake of clients or for the sake of sustainability. Not for the sake of profit. 

[00:24:38] Linzy: If you’re going to be with these companies, be savvy, think about: what is the model here?

[00:24:43] Megan: Yes, some companies, there’s two companies in the middle that I talked about that work for you and you work for them and one of them charges Mm-hmm. And a lot of people are like, well, I go to the one that doesn’t charge because why would I pay for it? But one of the things I think is important to remember is that if you are not paying, then you’re not a customer. And it’s easier for a company to communicate, keeping you happy to investors if you are a customer. So there’s a value in paying a company,because it means that part of the business model is keeping you happy and around and not just extracting as much value as possible.

[00:25:16] Linzy: Well, and it makes me think too about the phrase about social media, where it’s like, if you’re not paying, then like you are the product.

[00:25:21] Megan: Yes,

[00:25:22] Linzy: If it’s free, then how are they making money from you if you’re not paying to be part of it?

[00:25:27] Megan: Exactly.

[00:25:28] Linzy: Yeah. It’s those hidden costs. In terms of, you know, folks who are outside of those systems who are like running a private practice and,having to compete, like what do you suggest about how therapists we should be thinking about this issue? Like, should we be talking to each other? what do we do here? When I feel like it’s like we’re on the playground and there’s some really big tech bro bullies who come on the playground. And we’re like, Who’s that? They’re so mean. I don’t even know all the words for all the ways that they’re mean. All this language that we don’t even think about. ’cause we don’t think about maximizing profit. We think about taking care of people, right? What can we do to kind of protect our industry, protect ourselves? 

[00:26:02] Megan: Yeah. I’m trying not to be defeatist. I’m not saying it’s all going down. I just wonder if we’ve gotta break the system before it will all be fixed. 

[00:26:08] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] Megan: I was very much all for like, taking insurance, that kind of stuff. The more I see how much of a problem payers are in the system, the more I’m like, why should their business success be built on the backs of our vague sense of guilt around access? I am more and more on: go private pay if once you’ve got the pipeline of referrals and intentionally reserve two or three, either sliding scale or pro bono slots, that’s the game plan. I know that access is going to go down because of that, but hopefully that will put pressure on the system enough that they’re going to have to increase reimbursements, right?

[00:26:45] Linzy: Right, I’ve talked about this with therapists over the years, and eventually I’ve kind of come to the phrase of like, you can’t break yourself to fix the system because when we break ourselves, we’re not even fixing the system. In fact, like if you are working for, for example, an insurance company directly or through one of these platforms and you’re underpaid and exhausted, they’re profiting off of you. There is profit, it’s just you’re not seeing the profit. Like there is money that is being made,but it’s not being made by you. and so that actually is just upholding a system where people have figured out how to make money off of healthcare without paying healthcare workers well, and we’re actually just participating in that system.

[00:27:17] When folks come into money skills therapists, sometimes I think people are scared that I’m going to tell them, you have to go off insurance and you don’t. Because I believe that every private practice has its own equation of how to make the money work and for some folks. They can offer a blend of insurance or private pay, or they can offer all insurance because their mortgage is paid. They live in a low-cost area. There are so many scenarios where insurance can be part of a healthy picture, but for many folks it isn’t and when we’re sacrificing ourselves, we’re not actually changing the system at all. We are just upholding the system as it currently exists.

[00:27:50] Megan: Yeah, there’s a lot of places that have low paid at the bottom, service workers, like I think about like fast food, and I don’t think that they should be paid super low either, but in those situations, the company is providing the product but therapists show up fully equipped with everything they need to do therapy. The company is not providing anything other than occasionally like administrative assistance and occasionally a client pipeline. 

[00:28:12] Linzy: Right? Yes.

[00:28:13] Megan: So just maintain that sense of self-assurance in your license and that you’re providing the product that this company is selling, so making sure that they are reimbursing. 

[00:28:24] Linzy: You are the value. If you weren’t there, they don’t have anything without you really connecting with that power that you have. 

[00:28:30] Megan: Yes,

[00:28:30] Linzy: Yeah. That’s a great point to end on. Thank you. Thank you so much, Megan. This has been so informative. If folks are interested in getting further into your world and what you do, tell us again about the Facebook group and where else they can find you.

[00:28:43] Megan: Well, you can find me on LinkedIn, Megan Cornish. I also have a Facebook group. Let me just double check that link is front and center so that anyone who’s looking to join the Facebook group can just click on it and get

[00:28:52] Linzy: Perfect. Okay, wonderful. So yeah, you can check out The Fit Check For Therapists Facebook group where you can just get information. This is the closest that we can maybe get to unionizing at this moment. Which is at least openly talking about what you’re getting compensated for: where is it good to work, where isn’t it? Thank you so much, Megan, for doing this work and for bringing this information to therapists. ’cause this is not what we live and breathe. So it’s nice to have this information to understand kind of how folks are thinking about us outside of our space. Thank you so much.

[00:29:20] Megan: Cool. Thank you for having me.

[00:29:31] Linzy: This conversation with Megan has my wheels turning in multiple ways, but one of the things that I think about is how I often talk with therapists about how we end up reluctantly becoming business owners. Rarely do therapists go into private practice or health practitioners go into private practice because we wanted to own a business and we have an MBA, and we love business. We tend to go into a private practice because we want to serve our clients and we want to do it our way, right? And so we accidentally become business owners and the work that I do with therapists is helping us with that. Foundational financial literacy that’s what we do in my skills for therapists. Really just understanding how business finances work, working on your own relationship with money, getting your really like your feet under you. And then with the group practice course, I help folks with that financial leadership of what do strategic decisions around money look like, but all of these pieces are actually, I would say almost like a drop in the bucket compared to the kind of business knowledge and savvy and expertise that these massive companies are bringing into our space, right?

[00:30:28] Like they are operating on a very different set of rules and even a different set of ethics than we are when it comes to business and. therapists becoming educated and clear on money and how it works and our value and the value of our work, and doing the things that we can do, as Megan said, to make sure that we have our parachutes, that if you are working for a large company, that might change on a whim, that you have your private practice ready to go, that you’re working on those skills that you know are a deficit area for you.

[00:31:01] We need to do these things to be able to preserve ourselves in this landscape, right? Like we have. It feels like there’s some kind of big kids who come on the playground. They’re playing by a different playbook than we are. and we need to make sure that we have the financial literacy and the clarity about our own values and skills to hold our ground and make decisions that are good for us, and make decisions that, as Megan said, might shake up the system. By refusing to be exploited by these large companies, which include insurance companies too, that make money off of us, and hold our ground and, learn enough about business, become competent enough with business that we don’t end up basically serving these large companies at our own detriment.’Cause whenever therapists are not doing well, whenever we are tired or depleted, that is also translating into our work with our clients, right? We are not showing up as our best selves. We are not able to be fully present. We are not able to be our most creative and responsive and dynamic, when we are exhausted and tired and stressed about money.

[00:31:59] And so there’s just so many ripple effects that come from us being plugged into these larger systems that don’t care about us, but certainly. A huge part of the answer is that we need to develop the literacy and the confidence to be able to run our own businesses successfully so we don’t get swallowed up by these larger systems. And so that if we are choosing to participate in these systems, we’re doing so because we’re clear that this is actually sustainable for us and our family can be okay and our own financial health will be okay even if we’re working with some of these systems that don’t compensate us well and we’ve made a conscious decision that it’s worth it.

[00:32:29] So many pieces here. I so appreciate Megan coming and bringing this knowledge to us today and certainly check out her Facebook group. If you want to be part of conversations about where are the better places to work, what is happening in these different companies and in this industry and check her out on LinkedIn to get into her world. So thanks to Megan for coming on the podcast today. If you are enjoying the podcast, you are welcome to leave me a review. We have a beautiful link in the show notes that will take you to whatever platform makes sense for you to leave a review.

[00:32:58] That’s a really helpful way for folks to find us, whether you just want to leave a star rating or share what you appreciate about the podcast, that’s always a really lovely thing. A lovely way for you to support the podcast and if you are interested in working with me. The way to do that is through my two courses, either money skills for therapists for solo practitioners, or money skills for group practice owners, and we will put the link in the show notes, for how to get into both of those worlds. I would be happy to support you in having your business finances actually work for you and getting that grounding and financial confidence so that you can be well and you’re financially taken care of and somebody else is un-profiting off of you. So thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:04] Jessica: I think just giving the VA trust is huge, too. I know it feels so scary, but when they don’t feel micromanaged and you trust them, I feel like… there’s more purpose for them and they feel like more a part of your business and the bigger picture. It’s tough. It’s just finding the right person, really trying to have trust, but start small.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Jess Beacon. Jess is a recreational therapist turned virtual assistant who specifically supports therapists in our businesses. And I was really excited to get to talk to Jess today because I talked so much with my students in Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners about getting some help, right? Like not doing it all ourselves. and a VA is usually. The fastest, easiest way to get that help, right? VAs have businesses set up that already are offering support, VAs being virtual assistants. And Jess and I today really got into the foundation of like, what is a virtual assistant? What do they do for you?

[00:01:33] How do you interview somebody to find the right person? What is the amount of time that somebody could work for you for? How do you let go of control might be something that you’re thinking about. If you’re considering delegates, like how do you start to delegate? How do you set expectations for how long it should take for somebody to be able to do a task up to your satisfaction, Jess? shared some great insights today from the virtual assistant side of the equation of how to have a successful relationship with a virtual assistant and get that help that you need in your private practice or your group practice. Here is my conversation with Jess Beacon.

[00:02:17] So Jess, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:19] Jessica: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

[00:02:21] Linzy: Yeah, I’m excited to have you here too. We were just chatting off mic beforehand about how we both live in the same small to medium sized city in Ontario, Canada by pure coincidence.

[00:02:33] Jessica: Small world.

[00:02:34] Linzy: Well, yeah, it is a small world. I don’t think we’ve ever run into each other, but maybe we have. But it’s lovely to have you on the podcast like sometimes,being in the online space, our sense of local is really generous. Like if somebody’s in like Hamilton, which is like 45 minutes away. I’m like, we basically are next door neighbors, but with you, we really like,we really are10 minutes apart.

[00:02:53] So wonderful to have you here,to talk today about VAs. So VAs virtual assistants, this is your world. This is your zone of genius that you occupy and this is something that I talk about a lot with my students,whether they’re folks in solo practice, on their own or even with my group practice owners that I work with in my course who might have five employees, sometimes even like 10 employees,there can be a lot of confusion or lack of clarity about virtual assistants, what they can do for you, what they won’t do for you. And so I’d love to dig into today to help folks get more clarity about, you know, this kind of support. So let’s just start with the very basic, like what does a virtual assistant do?

[00:03:34] Jessica: Mm-hmm. no, that is a great question. I often think of VA as like an umbrella term ’cause there’s just so many things that we do and it varies so much between VA, like what services they offer. I would say in general, they usually provide support with admin, creative, technical, and social media. Those kinds of areas and then some VAs also specialize a little bit further, so they might provide more specialized skills in certain areas. This isn’t an inclusive list, but this kind of just might give you an idea of what they could maybe take off your plate.

[00:04:08] So in terms of admin, some tasks could be client communication,email management, updating Excel sheets, light research, keeping track of data or metrics, scheduling blogs. could be billing and invoicing, scheduling client sessions, calendar management, creating SOPs or like standard operating and then creative tasks could be, you know, creating resources for your business. So maybe that’s course creation workbooks, freebies,maybe video editing, and then in terms of social media, that could look like engagement, creating graphics or reels, scheduling posts, creating a monthly content calendar.

[00:04:47] And then, like I said, some VAs will specialize a little bit further in certain areas, so they might offer things like email marketing or podcast management, Pinterest management, web design. Some VAs even consider themselves like a tech VA, so they might do, you know, email automation systems, setting up a CRM or project management tool,creating lead pages and web support. So, I could go on and on.

[00:05:10] Linzy: It’s a big list.

[00:05:11] Jessica: There’s so many, I feel like that doesn’t even probably scratch the surface.

[00:05:13] Linzy: Sure.

[00:05:14] Jessica: Hopefully that just gives you an idea of some of the tasks that a VA could take off your plate and like I said, every VA will be very different in what they offer.

[00:05:22] Linzy: Right.

[00:05:23] Yeah, so folks will have their specific niche that they might be particularly excited or skilled in but you know, what I’m hearing in that list of tasks is,almost everything that’s not actually client facing.

[00:05:34] Jessica: Yeah, we’re very behind the scenes. Sometimes client facing, if we’re, some people have VAs that are dealing a little bit more closely with their clients, which is, I don’t personally do that, but that’s a side of it but generally, yeah, like we’re like the behind the scenes kind of specialist, I guess.

[00:05:50] Linzy: Yeah, and running the business side of things. ’cause something that I find with many of the folks that I work with is. The business side of things, usually is not why they started a private practice, right? Like people don’t start private practices ’cause they really want to have their own business. You know, we start our private practices ’cause we want to work for ourselves and have freedom and be able to maybe work for the population that, you know, there’s no other way to work with them. We want to be able to step out and work on our own terms, but I often think about it that it’s kind of like therapists accidentally go into business.

[00:06:20] Jessica: Right.

[00:06:21] Linzy: You’re like, oh, there’s all these things to do. Like that massive list that you just gave us. Which, you said, is scratching the surface. Those are all fairly standard things in the running of a typical business. Maybe some of the things at the end were a little bit more online business-oriented, like lead pages or automations, but,many of those things on that list are just things that we all have to do, to have an actual business that is a machine that is doing something to support us

[00:06:46] Jessica: Yeah, and it creeps up fast. You’re just like, oh, I have to wait. I have to post on social media. I have to do this. It’s so easy to get burnt out and just exhausted from it all. Yeah, it’s a lot.

[00:06:57] Linzy: So you know, for folks who are listening right now who might have just heard some things on that list that they’re like. I can get help with that thing.

[00:07:04] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:07:06] Linzy: When somebody is considering, like looking around for a VA right. What kind of questions should they be asking to find somebody who will be the right fit for them?

[00:07:15] Jessica: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So it’s going to depend yeah, what you’re needing from the VA first, I would say if you are a therapist that’s looking for a VA that is going to be working with your clients, so like they’re maybe dealing with personal health information and they’re

[00:07:30] scheduling,appointments or doing calls and stuff like that. I feel like there’s sort of a subset of questions you might want to ask,just to cover those bases. So for one, I would see if they’re familiar with privacy laws in your jurisdiction. I know you have a lot of, I think Canadian and American listeners, so like, see if they’re familiar with HIPAA or P HIPPA.

[00:07:48] We’re in Ontario. That would be a really good first step if that’s the kind of VA you’re looking for. I would also ask the question like what steps do they take to keep sensitive information secure, just like on their end. And then it might also be a good idea to ask if they have cyber insurance just as like a little extra protection.

[00:08:05] So that’s specifically for if your VA’s dealing with personal health information. I do not do that as a VA, but I know like there’s probably therapists that are looking for that, so I just wanted to throw that out there. Other questions you could ask? So that would be like, obviously you might want to ask what their experience is in mental health,and just to get an idea, like, do they understand your ideal client?

[00:08:24] This might depend, you know, what tasks they’re doing, if they’re doing more social media, this might be more important or obviously if they’re communicating with your client, but I think it’s just really good that they know the language and they just understand that space. So it’s just good to ask that question. Another one would be pretty basically like, what services do you offer? ‘Cause like I said, like that list is so long and VAs differ so much in what they offer. So just make sure that they do offer something that is what you need that is going to take something off your plate. Another question would be like.

[00:08:55] A lot of VAs have, they go by hour or they do packages. So just ask them like, do you charge hourly? Do you do a package? I think some VAs like if you do a certain amount of hours, it might be cheaper like in a package. So that’s a good one to ask and then also are there like minimum requirements, so some VAs because the onboarding takes like a little bit of time. They might say we have to commit for a month or like a couple weeks or something. So just good to know that for yourself, just see if they have a minimum requirement. And also, what notice do they require to cancel?

[00:09:26] So you don’t want to be stuck, like, you know, you just want to have an idea, like if you ever have to cancel for whatever reason, the contract, just good to know how many days they require. What are your preferred communication methods? So I think that’s just good to know, like how do you guys communicate?

[00:09:40] Does your VA like to email or use Slack or video call or a combination? and then what are their turnaround times too because,you know, some VAs are very quick to respond to stuff that a therapist needs help with. Like they’re, maybe they wake up one day and they’re like, oh my gosh, I need help troubleshooting this, or I need…not all VAs can do that. A lot of us have multiple clients that we’re working with, so we might have like a 48 hour turnaround for things like new projects or something that’s not already on our task list. So just good to have that in mind because I’ve definitely come across potential clients where I’m like, I don’t know if we’re a good fit ’cause I do have a little bit of a turnover time and I can’t be available constantly. So it’s just good to ask that. You could also ask about their experiences with different platforms and systems, like if you need help with Jane or something that’s really important that they’re going to be using to see if they have experience.

[00:10:27] If not, like, are you willing to kind of maybe provide a little bit of education on that? And then I threw this one in. This was one that my client asked me on a discovery call, but I thought it was really good is how do you receive feedback?I just thought that was really smart to ask that and I was like, oh, what a good question and I just felt like that gave a good idea of how I work and just like. I got a chance to share how I do receive feedback, also being highly sensitive. I was like, I really appreciate you asking that ’cause we can be more sensitive to criticism and stuff and it was just a very nice question to ask.

[00:11:01] So, and then lastly, this isn’t really a question, but I would say like, is their personality a good fit? Because I just think that’s just so important when you’re inviting someone into your business. Like do your values align? Do you get each other? Do you work well together? Luckily, like with my clients, we just, yeah, we really understand each other and I feel like it makes the process just so much better. Like, we really get each other. So, yeah, just I would, I mean, you guys know how to feel people out. I would just say like on the discovery call, see if it’s a good match. A good fit.

[00:11:30] Linzy: Yeah. Looking around a little bit, too, is something that I’m thinking of as you’re mentioning these questions, I think we’re used to the idea of looking around for certain things. like dating, it’s like you don’t marry the first person you go on a date with, maybe they’re not a fit.

[00:11:43] But sometimes when it is, I think especially for therapists and health practitioners, folks in business when maybe we’ve been putting something off for a long time. There can be a lot of charge around it like, oh, okay, I finally need to do this thing. You still need to remember that the first person to interview might not be the right person. It might not be the right fit, as you say. Right. And so, you know, interview two or three people to see who feels like the right vibe ’cause something that I’m thinking about too, as you’re mentioning these questions, is partially there are questions you would ask anybody if you’re doing a job interview, right? Like if you’re hiring somebody as an employee, you would want to ask these questions too. But also they have their own business,

[00:12:16] Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:17] Linzy: Somebody else’s business into your team. So I’m also thinking too about like, they’re not fitting into your workplace culture, you know, if they already are established, like you are, they have multiple clients, they have their way of doing things. So making sure that your businesses are compatible.

[00:12:31] Jessica: For sure. Yeah, and I would say like a lot of VAs offer free discovery calls, that’s usually the first part in the process. It’s like half an hour. So yeah, do like a few of those if you can just, it’s just so worth it to take the time to find someone. I feel like that’s just a good fit.

[00:12:45] Linzy: One of the biggest hesitations that I hear from therapists when it comes to a VA is there’s a couple things. All the work it’s going to take to train them, Right. Like there’s this hesitation and the thought that then comes up for I think a lot of therapists is like, it’s easier if I just do it myself. Like it’s going to take so long to teach them. It’s easier if I do it myself. Maybe they won’t do it as well as I do it or won’t do it the way that I like to do

[00:13:07] Jessica: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:09] Linzy: What do you suggest in terms of the onboarding process for a VA? Like How do therapists set their expectations appropriately for onboarding? What does onboarding look like? Like how much time does it usually take to kind of train somebody or come to an agreement about how things should be done?

[00:13:24] Jessica: For sure. Yeah, I would say like, so it depends like if you have a, maybe a newer VA that you’re onboarding, you may be more involved in that process. Maybe they need more education on certain systems or things you’re doing in your business. A more experienced VA, they might have a slightly better onboarding process or know, have more knowledge of certain systems that you work with but I would say, yeah, like in general, nobody knows your business or you, so whoever you onboard, it’s going to take some time, to just get to know each other and how you work and the workflows. So I would just say like, yeah, take it slow. So it’s usually a discovery call and then there’s like a kickoff call, which is like your first call when you’re like, okay, we’re working together.

[00:14:02] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Jessica: So I would just take time on that call to really get into like nitty gritty stuff of like, how do you want to do this? Do you want to, like, what project management software or platform are we going to use and how are we going to delegate tasks? Ask like, is the VA going to send you a report every week of like, what they did? Or do you not need that? Or just like, kind of create that open communication of how do we want to work together? And so kickoff calls are a really good place to do that. Yeah.

[00:14:27] Linzy: Absolutely. And you know, something that I am also curious about from your perspective as a VA is sometimes I’ve seen therapists hire somebody like say to do their social media and they’re not happy with the work that’s being done, but it’s also like just started,

[00:14:40] Jessica: Right.

[00:14:41] Linzy: Right? So like in your experience, what is a normal kind of onboarding period where it’s like, yeah, we’re still getting to know each other, you’re going to still be getting to know their brand’s voice, you know? So obviously it’s going to take you a while to be like, oh, okay, this is the color scheme you want oh, I understand now there’s going to have to, of course, be a normal amount of working things through and getting to know each other, but also sometimes it’s just ultimately not going to be a fit.

[00:15:02] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:15:02] Linzy: In your experience, how long does it take to figure out if you’re actually a right fit?

[00:15:08] Jessica: Mm-hmm, I would say it depends too, like what you’re doing. ’cause like social media would be, that takes so much longer to kind of see results and get into the hang of things and stuff. Whereas like VA work, I would say you could probably know a little bit sooner if things weren’t working. It’s tough to give a hard answer for that.

[00:15:27] But I would say like social media maybe, I don’t know I’d say sometimes it could take at least like four to six months to really see like something happening depends like how much you’re posting too and like if they’re actually like a social media manager that’s doing strategy and stuff, like it should be probably around that. Whereas, if there’s no strategy, it is kind of hard to see results sometimes. So I dunno if that’s a great answer to the question, but.

[00:15:51] Linzy: It’s a great answer because that got me thinking about something. I’m thinking about a specific student in mind for this example. And the question of results is a great one, right? Because like when we’re in business, we’re trying to accomplish something, right? It’s not just like whether or not we personally like something, it’s like, is it doing the thing that it sets out to do? And that’s a great reminder, right? Is that when we have a VA working with us, there can be metrics that we’re tracking together, right? Our goal is to gain 50 followers a month, right? Is that happening? Is what we’re doing working. Can your VA tweak and come at it a different way and you start to see that there’s results? That is a great reminder that is what a VA is there to help us do not necessarily do something exactly the way that we would’ve done it.

[00:16:35] Jessica: Exactly, yeah, and also just thinking sometimes your idea of like success maybe changes over time, like if you’re not, getting followers is great, but sometimes it’s just like being seen online and like growing brand awareness. There might be things happening behind the scenes, if we’re talking about social media in particular, that are actually doing well for your business but it’s a little bit hard to see like those the hard numbers or whatever. So I would think of like all the different ways it might be helping besides just like, you know, followers or something, but it is still important to track those, like if you have certain goals, I feel like a good social media manager will be tracking like the numbers and you guys will have a goal set out at the beginning and there should be some kind of like return on investment, obviously, like at least give it some time but,after a while it’s like, okay, yes, you should be seeing something aligning with the goals that you guys set out.,

[00:17:23] Linzy: Yeah,Because I’m thinking, you know, there’s two things that adding to your team in general brings, and specifically that a VA would bring and so there’s kind of those quantitative results, where we see something in the business is getting better, right? Like more clients are converting because they’re getting responses faster than you could give as a therapist, right? Like if your VA is more available, maybe more people are converting to a first session. Or if you’re doing like,social media, you’re getting whatever metric you decide, you know, the followers is a vanity metric, but maybe you’re getting more people actually like click through to your page or you’re starting to hear from people who call, oh yeah, I found you on Instagram or like, my friend told me about your Instagram page. So there’s that quantitative piece of actually improving your business’s performance, which from a financial perspective then turns into more money that you can allow to live your life and you know, all those good things But I’m also thinking, what I see generally happens first is that qualitative change where it’s like oh, somebody else is helping,

[00:18:16] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:18:17] Linzy: Right? Like, I’m not alone in that and that I find folks tend to have that happen quickly or often it doesn’t happen. I’m thinking these are, anecdotal, but I’ve seen folks where they hire a new administrator, whether they’re a virtual administrator or in person and it’s a fit, and they’re like, oh my god, I feel like 30 pounds lighter.Just having somebody else who’s like holding the bandwidth with you and who’s like, oh, I got that. Or like, oh, here’s a better way to do that. Like the relief that brings, especially when therapists have been kind of treading water frantically for so long and that in itself has a lot of value that might be harder to quantify.

[00:18:54] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:18:55] That’s a good way to, to say Yeah, because it was like, you obviously want that quantitative data. But then it’s like, there’s also that qualitative stuff where it’s like, oh, if you can feel like lighter or you just have more capacity to be with your family or you have alone time, it’s like, that is so valuable it’s hard to like put a number on that.Or maybe it means like you start working on this project that you’ve been dying to work on, like you start creating that course or you’re writing that book and like, you’re not going to see the numbers from that right away, but that just might be an investment where you’re getting back the capacity to work on that, which maybe down the road turns into more money. Yeah, so lots of, it’s invaluable…

[00:19:29] Linzy: yeah, absolutely, and like I’m curious, like what would be your response to therapists who really have that challenge around, like, nobody can do it like I can.

[00:19:40] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:19:41] Linzy: This is a belief I see that stops people from getting help where it’s like, yeah, but nobody can do it. Like I can, like nobody can respond to client emails or I, I don’t even know. ‘Cause like, it could be literally anything, but yeah, what are your thoughts on that kind of belief?

[00:19:55] Jessica: Yeah, it’s tough because like, I totally relate to that and I feel like I’m also a perfectionist, struggling with control and letting go. So I totally understand. I think you have to find someone that’s a good fit and I think it’s so hard, but just none of this has to be long term. You can just try something, you can start small. I would say like, if you’re nervous about it and you’re like, oh my gosh, someone can’t do this as well as me. Start with a task that’s maybe you’re less involved in it in some way and doesn’t really require you as much or your voice or whatever.

[00:20:26] Start with that and just get used to dipping your toes into delegating that could be just a few hours a month or something. You can go from there. You kind of build that trust and I think just giving the VA trust is huge too. Like, which again, like I know it feels so scary, but when they don’t feel micromanaged and you trust them, I feel like they get access to just, there’s more purpose for them and they feel like more a part of your business and the bigger picture. It’s tough. It’s just finding the right person, really trying to have trust, but start small. If you’re new to delegating,start really small.

[00:20:57] Linzy: That’s a great way to frame it like new to delegating And for folks who are new to delegating, what are those nice kind of like light starter tasks that you see tend to be easiest for folks to give away?

[00:21:07] Jessica: I would say like scheduling blogs, if you do that,you could do maybe light email management, like just very, even like you could get some templates started and your VA could just like use templates to do stuff. You can also, I think a lot of therapists will have the VA sign off from the email instead of them. So it’s just like, it’s not actually you talking,if they’re worried about that. Just even tiny things like website updates or, yeah, like I know social media is just such a huge thing. So even if it’s like, maybe you don’t hire a social media manager to do your whole strategy, but maybe you’re like, I have some good ideas, but like, I don’t have time to create the carousels or edit the reels, you know, so like you’re still behind the big picture of it and you’re driving it forward, but they’re just doing like the little annoying tasks that are taking up

[00:21:56] Linzy: So it’s like, it’s like, here, I recorded this reel. Can you match it to this? Here’s the caption but they actually do the task of putting everything together.

[00:22:03] Jessica: Yeah or like scheduling takes so much time or writing captions so just those tasks that maybe don’t require you as much, like you can still do the big picture stuff, get your voice out there, and they can do the just annoying things that are taking up your time.

[00:22:15] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, those little admin tasks that sometimes take so long too and something that I try to tell my students is often VAs, you folks are actually generally much faster and more efficient at those tasks than we are for a variety of reasons.

[00:22:31] Jessica: Right.

[00:22:32] Linzy: Partially because of your natural skills, which is why you’re in this field, but also I find, too, when it’s your own business, sometimes certain things can have an emotional weight that slows you down. Like for instance, if I think about replying to client emails or letting a client know that I’m sick, it’s if I was sick and I had to like call the client, like, I would like feel bad ’cause I’m like, oh, I knew what we were probably going to talk about today. And we had that EMDR target we were working on last week and like, you know, and so like for me it’s a very heavy task to call somebody and be like, I’m sorry, I’m so sick. You know? And like I have to, I feel like I have to sound extra sick if I’m calling them. Whereas like for a VA, they’re just like, Hey, Linzy’s sick today.

[00:23:03] Yeah, okay, I’ll get you scheduled tomorrow. Great, we’ll see you then, bye. Like, it’s such an emotionally light task. And how much more efficiency that adds when somebody, it’s not them, it’s not your brand, it’s not your voice. You don’t have all these complex relationships, yeah. I think that you actually tend to be much faster

[00:23:19] Jessica: Okay. Well, thank you. I didn’t, that’s nice to know.

[00:23:21] Linzy: Yeah. Certainly. So, you know, something else that I’m thinking about, Jess, is therapists, too, like we tend to think a lot about other people’s needs. Don’t know if you know that about us… You were a rec therapist I know, in your previous life, so I know you know what I’m talking about. And something that I also see therapists struggle with is this hesitation around like how little help can I ask for? Right? Like, we feel responsible. So if you want to bring on a VA, it feels like you should be bringing them on for like,20 hours a week or like full-time, you know? What is the smallest amount of work that you can ask a VA to do?

[00:23:53] Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I’ll start most questions with this, like it will depend on the VA obviously, but I wouldn’t worry too much about even if you’re just delegating a small amount of tasks every month, even if it’s like a few hours or something. Like I said, VAs have so many, usually a lot of different clients and they’ll let you know if they’re going to work for them or not.

[00:24:12] If they have the availability to do a couple hours a month, a few hours. Yeah, I mean I feel it feels weird to just say don’t worry about it, but like I would say honestly, yeah, just like it’s part of our job to just have a few different clients and I’m sure there’s so many VAs that would be more than happy to take on a client for just a few hours a month, or however much you need, and like, you can grow, too.

[00:24:31] Maybe that could be a question for the VA. Do you have the capacity to maybe if I need more hours, they might be able to help you with that. In the future,if you start building that trust and stuff and can slowly delegate more tasks. So, yeah, I wouldn’t be afraid to start small.

[00:24:44] Linzy: Yeah, because I think, too, as you’re describing that, it’s remembering that if you’re approaching somebody who’s actually a VA like you are, you have your own business. So you’ve already got, you know, your system set up. You’ve got maybe a few clients and you can say yes or no fit. I’m Jess, can you help me for like 15 minutes?

[00:24:59] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[00:25:00] Linzy: Once a month, you’d probably be like, ah, maybe not that doesn’t quite fit what I need. But somebody else might be like, that’s perfect ’cause I have this. One hour spot in my week that I was looking to fill, and I’d be happy to put you in there. And so trusting the other person to also, you know, have set up systems, and be able to let you know what works for them and what doesn’t. I’m thinking of the therapist and just asking for what you actually want and need and as you say, you might say, can we start at like two hours a and can we start you with this task? But as trust grows and as you find that you’re a fit. Naturally their role might also grow and I’ve certainly had that, like our very first VA that we worked with,was also based here in Guelph by pure coincidence, found her online, and she started by doing just like the smallest tasks for us and eventually she became our first full-time employee But that was a natural progression, right?

[00:25:46] As we were like, oh, that was really great. Could you help with this too? Can you help with this too? You know, but we were able to toe-dip and slowly walk into the water together rather than diving into hiring a full-time administrator when we didn’t yet know how to get the help of a full-time administrator. ’cause we didn’t have SOPs in place. We didn’t know what we were doing.

[00:26:05] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:26:05] Linzy: And so it was a nice way to actually, for us to build a role,as our business grew, that position grew with our business.

[00:26:12] Jessica: Yeah, I think that’s such a great progression of how it can turn out. I remember my one client came to me just like not needing a ton of help. I think it was maybe like 10 hours a month or something. Tiny bit of social media management and like in the last over two years, like we’ve grown so much. Like she has a podcast now, and she’s writing a book, and she has a YouTube channel and now I do like 45 hours a month for her. She trusts me so much now ’cause like, it just takes time, right? You gotta like to build trust and show that you understand their business. And so she’s just been slowly been able to delegate more and it’s amazing. So we just keep kind of growing together. And I know not every VA would maybe have that capacity, but when you work so well together, I feel like you’re usually just open to being like, yeah, of course I want, I’ll take on more for you.

[00:26:55] Linzy: Yeah. And that right fit goes a long way like I know our VA turned employee, she let go of other clients

[00:27:01] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I did

[00:27:03] Linzy: more of a fit with you than I’m with these folks, so I’m going to wrap up my work over here so I can give you more hours. Right, so there, yeah, there’s a natural organic growth in that relationship. If it’s a relationship that works.

[00:27:13] Jessica: Exactly and that’s again, why it’s, yeah, so important that you’re a good fit, like in terms of personality and values and stuff.

[00:27:18] Linzy: Certainly. One more thing that I’m thinking of, ’cause this is one of the biggest hesitations I hear from therapists about VAs is like, it’s scary to spend the money, it’s scary to pay for help, right? It’s like, but I’m doing these things now and maybe the business isn’t even where they want it to be financially yet. Like what is the value of investing in some help or paying for help? How do you respond if you notice that folks are maybe hesitating to pay, or what would you say to somebody who really needs the help but is scared to spend the money on getting help from a VA?

[00:27:48] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I think I would say, “What is the cost of not delegating? It’s so easy I feel like, to be like, well, I can just do it myself. Like it takes an hour or it’s so easy to get sucked into that, but it’s like, what is the cost? Like is it actually sustainable, what you’re doing? Are you working on the weekends? Are you taking time away from your family or like you’re just putting off that project that’s going to actually help you scale and grow your business. So I would just sort of try to flip it and be like, you know, what’s the cost of not doing it? You can look at it as an investment too, right?

[00:28:18] Like you, you might not always see results right away, or maybe see, like we talked about, like the qualitative results first, and then it becomes quantitative. yeah. So I would think of it that way and like I said, yeah, just start small. Think of it as even a trial. Start with someone, see if it’s a good fit and then you might be surprised where you’re just like, why didn’t I do this sooner? Like, I have so much more capacity now. So I think that’s what I would try to frame it as is what’s the cost of not delegating?

[00:28:44] Linzy: That is a great framing. I like that framing a lot and something too that I find a framing that I often use with folks is just doing a little bit of math too, where it’s like, okay, this person, what would you pay them for an hour of their work. And then what are you collecting for an hour of your work? Like if you can see one more client a week because you freed up these four hours and you only turn that into one more hour of your work, how does the math work out? And usually the math is pretty damn good on the side of therapists, right? Because when we do have availability in our schedule and we have the energy to see one more client, therapists on it for an hourly basis bring in a lot of money for that one hour,

[00:29:19] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:20] Linzy: And so that can turn into a lot of help in your business. So if I think about that, if I think about turning one hour of my clinical time into four hours of help, it’s like, oh, that’s good math.

[00:29:30] Jessica: That’s a great way to put it. I’m paying this person this much, which I feel like most VAs are very reasonably priced to pay, and then what can you bring in. I feel like that can help as well. That’s a great way to think of it. Yeah.

[00:29:43] Linzy: Jess, thank you so much for coming in and shedding light on all things VA. If folks are interested in learning about your services and what you do,where could they find you? Because you are a VA for therapists. I will just say for people listening. So yeah, where could they find you?

[00:29:58] Jessica: yeah. So I am on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn virtually with Jess. And then I also have my website virtually with jess.com. That’s usually the best place to find me. I, at the time of this recording, I don’t have any room for clients unfortunately, but that could always change. You never know, but I do have an inquiry form at the link, my bio or my website to join a wait list if you’re interested. So, yeah.

[00:30:23] Linzy: Thank you so much, Jess, for coming on

[00:30:24] Jessica: Yeah, thank you for having me.

[00:30:36] Linzy: This conversation with Jess reminded me of my own journey and history with VAs and getting help. I got help early in my private practice when I was in solo practice, and still not even necessarily full, but was doing a transition between two clinic management softwares and was like, this is not a good use of my time. So at that time, I managed to get help from the administrator at the clinic that I was at. I was originally renting space at a clinic and it was such a relief to have that help and now in some ways I feel like I’ve gotten so much help in my business that I am not even good at admin anymore.

[00:31:12] If you can believe that. I was just saying to my team, jokingly, not jokingly this week, I should not be responsible for any administration or operations at this point because I’m spending so much of my time serving our actual students, right? Like coaching, doing our course calls, recording podcasts like this, doing presentations and workshops, doing the actual teaching, and idea generation for our business that I’ve become really bad at admin. I just don’t have the capacity or bandwidth. And that is totally fine ’cause it means that I’m actually able to show up in these spaces fully, without having to worry about some small administrative task and trying to remember if I have done it or not.

[00:31:52] So for folks who are considering getting some help, I highly recommend it. You are giving yourself the gift of not just time, but also getting back your bandwidth. And as Jess mentioned, for many folks, once they get their bandwidth back, whether it’s through, I see this when people get their relationship with money sorted, when they do, for instance, money skills for therapists and finally they’re not stressed about their business finances all the time, or when we get help with our administration, so we’re not doing our admin all the time.

[00:32:20] When we get that energy back sometimes it’s amazing what little project that was floating around your brain and felt impossible suddenly becomes possible because you have reclaimed your energy, you’ve reclaimed your bandwidth, and then you can make beautiful things happen in the world. That is probably not scheduling blog posts or scheduling social media posts or creating Instagram reels or any of those things.

[00:32:38] So appreciate Jess’s perspective today from the virtual assistant side of the relationship of how therapists can get help in doing this awesome work that we do. If you’re enjoying the podcast, it is so helpful if you leave me a review on Apple Podcast. Not only does it help people find the podcast, but lately I’ve been really getting into reading reviews as little love notes. You don’t have to leave me a love note, but if you’re enjoying the podcast and you have words that you could put to that enjoyment, it’s really nice for me to hear what the podcast means to you, and what you appreciate about the podcast. So you’re welcome to leave me a review on Apple Podcast. 

[00:33:16] And if you’d like to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Money Nuts and Bolts. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Marcia: Why would you be an angel investor? It’s a risky asset class so you do have to think about that, but at the same time, I’m like, hey, This is something that you can do, that you can really feel good about the work that some of these companies are doing. And it’s like an impact driven thing, but it is also, that you’re helping people to really make change in the world.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is with Marcia Dawood. Marcia is an angel investor. She is the author of Do Good While Doing Well, where she talks all about angel investing, what it is, how to do it, and today in our conversation we talk about. What is angel investing since it’s a new idea? 

[00:01:12] Certainly for me, I knew like, nah, this much about it. For folks who are listening and can’t see me, I’ve got an inch of knowledge and I certainly have learned a lot just with this conversation with Marcia today. So what is Angel investing? What it’s been like to navigate the financial world as a woman and what Marcia has noted are kind of some trends, when it comes to women and money and finance, 

[00:01:33] and the importance of putting your money where your mouth is. Angel investing as we talk about today, is a way to put your money that you have towards companies that are making great things happening in the world. You know, really to make your money represent your values. It is not the way, to be clear, to just save for your retirement. Angel investing is much riskier than, you know, your typical kind of stock market investing that you might do through your retirement investments, but it is a way to make really cool things happen in your community. It is a way to make cool things happen in the mental health space, and to support people who are visionaries and who are going to change things in a really powerful way. It’s a way for us to make our money make good happen in the world, which is something that I certainly think about a lot, and something that I see as folks work through, you know, money skills for therapists, my signature course with me, or my, you know, other courses, money skills for group practice owners or mastermind work together.

 [00:02:28] Once therapists tend to get our financial house in order and money is no longer a stressor, then we start to think about how can my money actually make my life better, make my family’s life better, make the world better? And angel investing is an interesting way to do that. So here is my conversation with Marcia Dawood.

 [00:03:00] So Marcia, welcome to the podcast.

 [00:03:03] Marcia: Well, thank you so much for having me.

 [00:03:04] Linzy: Yes, I am excited to have you. We were just chatting a little bit off mic, about the folks who listen to this podcast, the folks that I serve, and the world that you’re coming from and I’m going to say that you are bringing things to the podcast today that we haven’t had yet in terms of your expertise and your experience.

 [00:03:21] So I’m excited for what you are bringing today. Could you give folks just a bit of an introduction so they know where you’re coming from as we move into this conversation?

 [00:03:29] Marcia: Yeah, so I was in education, worked for Kaplan for a very long time, and one day I was invited to an angel investing meeting because my husband worked in finance. Now, just as a side note, when I realized the potential that he had, and then where I got in my career, I was like, you know, I am just as good with finance as he could be, but I wasn’t really conditioned that way.

 [00:03:58] So even when I was invited to this angel investing meeting and I was like, oh, cool and then I was like, what’s that? Like, I have no idea what you’re even talking about, like investing that isn’t something that I’ve really been taught to do. I don’t really know that much about it. And so I went to the first meeting and I was just so incredibly fascinated because there were these entrepreneurs that were in my neighborhood, my backyard, because I was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at the time. I wasn’t even in like New York or San Francisco or some big, fancy place and I thought, oh my gosh, have I been living under a rock? I had no idea that there were, things happening all over.

 [00:04:35] And I realized just how little funding went to female founders and I thought, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, wait. So we, women are like 50% of the population. You can’t tell me they only have like two or 3% of the good ideas, right?

 [00:04:51] Linzy: That’s bad math!

 [00:04:52] Marcia: Yeah, that’s bad, bad math, right? So, so then I started to piece some of it together. And I was like, you know, I think this is a problem, like a systemic problem because we as women are just not, we’re not taught, it’s not socialized for us to be, you know, the finance people. It’s like, that’s the guy’s job and I would talk to people over and over again about that.

 [00:05:13] And I finally got to a point where I was like, this is really frustrating. So this was maybe like 10, 12 years ago and then over the next, 10, 12 years, I’ve really been trying to focus my efforts not only on, hey, can I learn this? Which I was able to pretty quickly, but how can I get other people to feel comfortable with this?

 [00:05:31] Linzy: Yeah, and the angel investing world that you’re talking about, that you discovered 10 to 12 years ago, and we’re like, what is this? I can guarantee most people listening don’t know about it, either. So can you tell us about angel investing?

 

[00:05:43] Marcia: Yeah, so it’s basically simply put, it’s, you’re using your own money after tax dollars to invest in a private company. So we hear a lot about the public markets, we hear about Apple stock and Meta and all the things, right? But we don’t hear as much about the private markets because

 

[00:06:01] back in the day and when I say that, I mean like at least 10, 15, 20 years ago, you did have to have quite a bit of money. You had to be invited into the room, but that has changed so dramatically and now people can invest for as little as like 50, a hundred dollars. Where before you’d have to have thousands and hundreds of thousands.

 

[00:06:21] Right? And so this whole democratization that’s happening, and it’s still in the process of happening. We’re not, it’s not like tomorrow where you’re going to be able to buy stock in a private company like you can today on E-Trade and Robinhood, where you can do it in seconds, you know? And you couldn’t do that in public markets 30 years ago.

 

[00:06:39] So it is starting to change, but simply put, it’s like when you’re helping an entrepreneur to grow a company and you’re at that, like earliest of stages when they’re figuring it out, they might have an idea, you know, the angels come in before like the big VC people and the bigger dollars that are going to help the company to really scale

 

[00:07:02] but I look at it like, and I, have a podcast actually called the Angel Next Door because I was so fascinated as to why do people do that? why would you do this? Why would you be an angel investor? It’s a risky asset class so you do have to think about that but at the same time, I’m like, hey, this is something that you can do, that you can really feel good about the work that some of these companies are doing.

 

[00:07:26] and it’s like an impact driven thing, but it is also, that you’re helping people to really make change in the world. So I always say, like, I would hear the saying be the change you want to see in the world. And I’d think, yes, I want to be the You know, like, and then I’d be like, what do I

 

[00:07:44] Linzy: do?

 

[00:07:44] Right,

 

[00:07:44] Marcia: Like. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do and then I would see some of these companies and I’d think, oh, that’s really cool. They’re working on like a treatment or a cure for a disease, or maybe they’re working on something that could help the climate and I was like, I could be a part of that.

 

[00:08:00] Because I always thought, I’d have to be, you know, somebody big

 

[00:08:03] Linzy: yeah, yeah, yeah. Like have a

 

[00:08:05] Marcia: rich or Right.

 

[00:08:06] I didn’t think that me, I could do it. and it isn’t even just with money. What I love about this is there are people who have, and like considering your audience even, who have very specific skills and they can use the skills that they have, whatever they are, because all

 

[00:08:21] companies need all kinds of help. They could actually do that as something that is a give back so we think about giving back a lot of times as to charities, which is lovely. Everybody should be giving to charities and helping them and everything but if you think about the amount of money that goes to annual charitable giving, it’s a lot, but it’s really only equivalent to about 1% of the value of our US stock market.

 

[00:08:47] So if we’re thinking to ourselves, Hey, be the change, you know, and then, oh yeah, the charities are going to do that. That’s really not going to happen, right? We’re putting a burden on them that is way out of, what they have the means to be able to do so, like what can we do?

 

[00:09:00] Well, we could start to help some of these entrepreneurial companies and like, people are like, oh, okay, great. Well, where do I find them? Well, in a lot of cases there are entrepreneurs working on really cool stuff in every city, in every town. So I always tell people, just go to Google or search engine and just type in

 

[00:09:19] startup events or entrepreneurship or whatever in my town, and then just fill in your city or town because you’d be surprised how much really cool stuff is happening in your own backyard that you can go and find out about and meet new people. I met so many people that I never would’ve met because they were just weren in my industry.

 

[00:09:38] Linzy: Yeah, ’cause I’m hearing there’s kind of two cool opportunities here. One is you have the opportunity as somebody who has a few hundred bucks that you know, you wouldn’t be ruined if that money didn’t come back to you, right. Because like, first of all, just to be clear, we wouldn’t want somebody putting all their retirement savings into an

 

[00:09:54] Marcia: angel investment.

 

[00:09:54] Exactly. Don’t use your kids finance. You know your college

 

[00:09:58] Linzy: No college funds.

 

[00:09:59] Marcia: and they’re 15 years old.

 

[00:10:00] Linzy: So, you know, they are riskier investments, but as you say, it’s more of a values driven investment where you get to actually practically support making something that you want to see happen in maybe even your own neighborhood, your own community happen by funding somebody who is already doing this thing.

 

[00:10:14] So I’m hearing there’s the opportunity to put your dollars to work, you know, in terms of your values, but I’m also hearing for folks who might have a cool idea that they’re thinking about getting off the ground. This is another way to get funding to get started on some sort of neat vision that you have, is looking to angel investors, people who are happy

 

[00:10:31] to put money behind your vision and your project.

 

[00:10:34] Marcia: Right, and nowadays there are a lot of different ways to be able to invest. So I ended up writing a book called Do Good While Doing Well because I would try to explain as much as I could on my podcast, but it then there started to be so many episodes, people are like, okay, wait a minute. We need like a way to kind of navigate through all of this,

 

[00:10:53] andI just thought it was so interesting that you can invest, you know, like I said, for, you know, a little bit of money through what’s called equity crowdfunding and I explain all that in the book and also my podcast, but you can also use philanthropic dollars, you know, dollars that you would donate to charity that could potentially grow while you are kind of waiting to donate it to a charity.

 

[00:11:15] So in a lot of cases, it’s through a donor-advised fund and I won’t get into all the gory details, but basically if anybody has a donor-advised fund, and there are literally hundreds of billions of dollars sitting in donor-advised funds right now, and in a lot of cases, the managers of those funds will put them into a mutual fund or something like that, Apple stock, whatever,

 

[00:11:33] before it’s actually given to a charity and in a lot of those cases that can be used for private investments and it’s a way that, people can get money into these for-profit companies. Let’s say that that for-profit company does do well, it’s a way that you could potentially really expand on the money that you have for

 

[00:11:54] Linzy: charity.

 

[00:11:54] Right, right. You’re kind of investing the money first so it can grow and then you have so much more to give and for some language, for folks who are listening, I’m hearing you’re talking about, you know, private and public. So can you delineate just the difference between, you know, those public investments you’re referring to and private just for folks who are not familiar with that language?

 

[00:12:10] Marcia: Sure, so the public markets are what you hear about when people talk about some of these very big companies like Apple and things like that. They are publicly traded, meaning that you could go onto their website and they’re regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, they have to have all their disclosures.

 

[00:12:28] They have to do quarterly reporting. Annual reporting, and pretty much there is nothing that goes on at a public company that all shareholders know about at any given

 

[00:12:38] time.

 

[00:12:39] Mm-hmm private companies are not regulated by the SEC to the level that, a public company is and some, you know, it depends on if they’re fundraising, kind of the offerings that they’re doing.

 

[00:12:50] But at the end of the day, the private market is, there’s a lot more companies, you’d be surprised how few companies are actually publicly traded. I think it’s like around 4, 700 companies right now in the United States, which isn’t a lot. And there are just millions of small businesses and other private companies, so think about a private company, could be anything from your dry cleaner down the street to, it could be a startup, which is what angels are mostly wanting to invest in.

 

[00:13:17] But there are, a lot of ways that people can even raise money if they have, a small business in their

 

[00:13:22] Linzy: neighborhood.

 

[00:13:23] Okay, okay, and then, you know, you were talking about going back to the beginning of your story, you know, realizing, seeing your husband’s kind of trajectory in finance and realizing like, I, I could do that too. I’m curious, like, what has been your experience like of stepping into this like very,

 

[00:13:38] I was going to say specifically financial. I’m not sure how to describe it, but you’re kind of, you’re getting deep into the finance world, I think, when you’re getting into these angel investor spaces ish. Yeah. Tell

 

[00:13:46] Marcia: In? Yeah, in some cases, yes. I mean, the first, angel investing conference that I went to, there was a line at the men’s room,

 

[00:13:53] Linzy: yeah,

 

[00:13:54] Marcia: tells you anything. So I mean, I, I did feel, especially from 2012 when I first got started until a couple years ago, like it was pretty male dominated.

[00:14:04] But I feel like that’s the way finance has been.

[00:14:06] You know, guys when they want to make a deal or talk to their friends about it. It’s no big deal. They talk about their salaries, their jobs, their careers. They help each other. They’re on the golf course, they’re texting each other, blah, blah, blah.

[00:14:17] Right? As women, we don’t do that, and I really would love to find the golf course for women, like my husband is a huge golfer, and we would have these discussions about golf and I’d be like, why can’t I take the same amount of time as a yoga class? I mean, come on and then I would realize, you know, it’s not that you’re playing golf, it’s that you have access to people that I don’t have access to.

[00:14:41] And I felt like angel investing was something that I got involved with that opened up my eyes to a lot of things that, hey, I can do that too and it doesn’t have to stop and start at angel investing. It was like all of the things, the people I could get involved with, the different types of, groups I could be around.

[00:14:57] That became my golf course.

[00:15:00] Marcia: Because then I kind of felt like, well, I’m included and I feel like I can have more to give to other people because I’m now getting fulfilled by the people that are around me.

[00:15:13] Linzy: Yeah, I mean golf is an interesting example you bring up, and I’m thinking about a joke from a comedian that I’m probably not going to tell well, but something that’s basically the effect of like, golf is what men do because they can’t admit that they just want to go for walks together. because it’s like you get to spend, you know, a couple hours together and you’re going to talk about everything and you’re going to talk business, and then you’re going to go off and do some other things.

 

[00:15:31] So there is this, long space there where people can talk things through, you know, maybe do some business like on the golf course itself. And you’re right, we don’t have really, there’s not an equivalent space that women tend to do a parallel thing. So I’m hearing for you, it’s like getting into these rooms has been the parallel for that.

 

[00:15:48] And what type of rooms are those? What is the financial world that you’re navigating with the angel investors? Is it groups? Is it people that you’ve formed friendships with? What are these relationships looking like?

 

[00:15:59] Marcia: So in some cases, well, in a lot of cases, angels invest in a group because no one angel investor has enough money to back, you know, some of these companies. So we kind of pool our resources together. Plus, I am huge fan of anybody who’s doing anything in the healthcare space, but I am not a scientist, so you do not want me analyzing the company.

 

[00:16:18] Okay. I’d be like, I love what they’re doing. Oh my God. I’m such a bleeding heart about it. So that would be bad. So I need to surround myself with the people that do know, you know, the scientists, the doctors, and all that kind of thing so that we can, have better conversations and look these

 

[00:16:33] Linzy: companies.

 

[00:16:33] Yes.

 

[00:16:34] Marcia: As far as the finance side, most of the deal structure is relatively similar and in a lot of cases nowadays, you can invest through funds and a fund would mean that, I could make one investment into a fund manager who would then invest in multiple startups. And it’s their fiduciary responsibility to us as the investors to actually go out and find the companies that fit into, what they said they were going to invest in.

 

[00:16:58] And that’s great because now if you’re somebody who’s like, hey, I like this idea, I don’t have the time. Okay, and I, I could see myself doing something like this, but I just would want somebody else to kind of manage it. That is a much, different option in some cases better.

 

[00:17:12] Linzy: That makes sense to me. I mean, it makes me think about a couple things. One, it makes you think about that expression, like you should never be the smartest person in the room, right? So like, especially if you’re starting to want to support something that is not your area of expertise, pooling together with a bunch of people who are all smart in different ways, right?

 

[00:17:27] Helps you make these strategic decisions But then I’m also thinking too about, you know, for folks who are listening, the importance of being around people who inspire you and challenge you and just how like that kind of raises your confidence and your energy.

 

[00:17:41] Like if I think about the equivalent in my world, which has been finding people who are as ambitious and confident and kind of unapologetic about wanting to make an impact as I am, how much that’s increased my confidence and my ambition. And so, getting with other people who share similar values, and share a similar desire to make an impact can allow you to make such a bigger impact, as a group and also individually.

 

[00:18:05] ‘Cause I think, you know, something that I see a lot with us in the kind of like caring, helping space is sometimes we tend to have relationships that are more people who maybe are doubting us. You know, like, oh, are you sure you should be doing that?

 

[00:18:17] Do you really know what you’re doing? Shouldn’t you just like work for an agency? because we tend to be people who take care of other people, we’re not always encouraged to like, take risks and like, go for what we really want and maybe it won’t work out. there can be this kind of like safeness.

 

[00:18:29] That, you know, were encouraged to, and I think as women too, we’re also encouraged to like, be safe. Like, are you sure you want to take that risk? Like, I know for me, when I started my private practice, my dad was like, Ooh, this could fail. I’m like, yeah, it could. That’s okay right, but just, surrounding yourself, those people, and I’m wondering for you, what has it been like to build this community?

 

[00:18:46] Like, what has it done for you personally to be involved with these groups of people?

 

[00:18:51] Marcia: Yeah, it’s interesting you bring up failure because in a lot of cases it is okay to fail. That’s what we kind of encourage with entrepreneurship, you want them to realize what doesn’t work so that they can figure out. What does, and that’s not going to be a straight line. It never is in anything in life,

 

[00:19:08] right. So, you know, just being able to see that, you know, one thing that I talk to entrepreneurs about a lot is if they can’t explain the problem that they’re solving in such a way that is so simple and so easy that, anybody could understand it, they’re really not going to do well in their role.

 

[00:19:26] Right, and so as they’re trying to explain it to me, I. I just started to be the person who just said, I don’t understand. Sometimes that’s hard for us, especially as women to say, oh, I don’t know. A lot of times we’ll just say, oh, okay, uh, I get it, but do you get it?

 

[00:19:39] And so I just finally started being the person who said, I absolutely do not get it. I don’t understand what you’re doing because a lot of times these entrepreneurs, they’re super good at whatever they

 

[00:19:49] Linzy: are doing.

 

[00:19:50] Yes.

 

[00:19:51] Marcia: and, but, and when they try to explain it, it’s so technical that you’re just like, ah, I have no idea what you’re even

 

[00:19:56] Linzy: totally.

 

[00:19:56] Marcia: And so I think that in a lot of cases, the more you can be, and I think maybe that comes with age too. The more you can be humble about it and just say, hey, I just need you to explain this a little bit differently. And it really has helped them also to be like, okay, I’m getting more traction with other people

 

[00:20:13] because you were willing to say, I don’t understand.

 

[00:20:16] Linzy: Yeah, and I see that actually as a gift that you’re giving that other person, because that is a very important form of feedback for them. That if, they’re not able to explain it clearly as you say, they’re not going to be able to get traction. Nobody’s going to get what they’re doing. So, you know, as women sometimes we can smile and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

[00:20:30] This is happens a lot, with the folks that we support in our community around finances, right? It’s like your accountant is talking at you, you have no idea what they’re saying, but you don’t want to say that you don’t know because then you might look dumb. So then you’re just like, nodding ha, you know, like pained grin.

 

[00:20:44] but it doesn’t do anybody a favor at the end of the day, right? Because in that case, you don’t understand what you’re saying. Your accountant has basically just wasted their breath and in the case of what you’re talking about, if you don’t let them know that you don’t understand what they’re talking about, you’re actually not helping them succeed as a business,

 

[00:20:58] right? So it’s like a favor that you’re doing them there, I hear. it’s a favor to be humble, in the world when everybody wants to pretend they know everything. So for folks who are listening, who are realizing for the first time that there’s these pools of investors out there who do invest in startups and like small companies.

 

[00:21:18] I heard you mention at the beginning that most people who get funded are not women. Most companies that get invested in and most of the folks who are listening today are women. so what would you say to women who have a really good idea about the possibility of getting angel investors?

 

[00:21:33] Marcia: Well, first of all, I would say read my book because it’ll tell you a lot of ways that you can get investment without necessarily having to go to investors, right away. And a lot of times, bootstrapping and hitting those milestones. You know, angel investors are really only going to invest in companies that are very scalable, meaning that they can become very big.

 

[00:21:55] Angels want to see at least a 10 to 20 times return on their investment before they’ll make an investment.

 

[00:22:00] Right. It’s crazy,

 

[00:22:01] but there are a lot of other ways that you can, get funding. The other thing I’ll say is you know that number about how little money goes to women. The only way we’re going to change that number is to get more women investing.

 

[00:22:13] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Mm.

 

[00:22:13] Marcia: because it’s.

 

[00:22:14] It’s the people that look like us is who we help. How can we help those women? We can get more women writing checks and making the decisions, even if it starts small. My goal or vision in life, if I could wave a magic wand, would be to have so many more women investing so that it makes it easier for the female founders to be able to fundraise and build their companies because the women are scrappier.

 

[00:22:41] They’re taking money and they’re making a lot more with it, and they can get more revenue with less expenses. It’s just a proven fact. there’s been studies done.

 

[00:22:51] Linzy: Yes, yeah, I’ve, joked about this with folks before about, most men that I know, who have started companies think it’s really important to wrap their truck. That seems like a really important investment to them, whereas like, so few women that I know make those kinds of choices, like where, you know, as you say, much more like thoughtful about what will give you return.

 

[00:23:06] and so I do think that, a lot of the, whether it’s it’s nature or nurture, a lot of the ways that women tend to manage money are more thoughtful and strategic and considerate and therefore we are in a position to build very successful businesses.

 

[00:23:20] So for people who are listening who are possibly hearing about this for the first time, how can they get further into your world?

 

[00:23:27] How can they learn more about angel investing?

 

[00:23:30] Marcia: On my website, which is just simply my name, marciadawood. com, we can put it in the show notes, the exact spelling. I have a podcast tab, and on there I have playlists. So if you’re interested in a certain type of investing, if you want to hear from a certain type of investor, you can go there.

 

[00:23:48] The very first episode I ever did is me explaining what angel investing is in about seven minutes and it’s been the most popular of all, even though it’s very short, and it’s the first episode that ever came out. In a lot of cases, I’m just trying to educate. I have no real dog in the fight.

 

[00:24:05] I have a book, but I’m not trying to get people to invest in a fund or get people to invest in a certain company. I’m not a broker, anything like that. I make no suggestions, talk to your financial advisor, everything. I’m not making any recommendations.

 

[00:24:18] I just think people should know about it because we’re not talking about it enough. We’re seeing a lot of innovation that could be happening in our world, not happen, and it’s basically left metaphorically on the cutting room floor and I just I don’t want to keep seeing that happen. I want to keep getting more and more people to even know that this is something that exists.

 

[00:24:38] Linzy: Yeah, absolutely and you know, what I’m hearing is it really is an opportunity to kind of put your money where your mouth is you know, being an angel investor, which I know is something that resonates with the folks who listen. ’cause we’re always thinking about how to try to make the world better than it is right now.

 

[00:24:52] So this is a, a cool new avenue, that we can explore to make this happen. So thank you so much, Marcia, for joining me today. This has been, really illuminating.

 

[00:24:59] Marcia: Well thank you and if people want to get a free copy of chapter one of my book, they can just go to my website and it’s for free.

 

[00:25:06] Linzy: Awesome, great, thank you so much.

 

[00:25:07] Marcia: Thank you.

 

[00:25:19] Linzy: This conversation with Marcia has taught me a lot about, angel investing and some of the kind of structures around angel investing that I didn’t really know existed. I think I always thought that Angel investing was more of like an individually giving to a company. You know, like your friend’s cousin is starting a cool company, so you give them $20, 000 and you hope that it comes back to you,

 

[00:25:37] but it was interesting to learn today that there are, you know, a lot of structures around angel investing. You can go in with a group of people who have different expertise than you do to make good decisions as a group. You can entrust your money to somebody who will invest your money. For you, aligned with the values that your group has identified.

 

[00:25:56] So, you know, there it’s quite a developed world, is what I’m hearing today and something that stuck out to me as I was talking with Marcia, is the power and the importance of stepping up and owning your expertise, your competence, your skills, as a woman or a marginalized person in the world, and what that also does for the world, just representation of us stepping up and saying like,

 

[00:26:19] I know how to do things. I understand business. I can learn these things. Stretching ourselves. Not only does that expand us as people and make us more confident and grounded and more impactful as people, but as Marcia mentioned, people tend to support other businesses that look like them, It’s not great.

 

[00:26:39] It’s not a very pretty part of human nature, but the more that we have women and marginalized folks using our money to support businesses from women and marginalized folks, the more of those ventures are going to be successful, right? Like, we need to be in these spaces using our power to make great things happen in the world.

 

[00:26:59] And if we’re not in these spaces, then, you know, the folks who tend to be there are not going to support the things that we want to see. So really stepping up and using our power through money to make cool things happen is a very exciting prospect for me and something that, as Marcia mentioned, you don’t need to have a lot of money to do.

 

[00:27:15] If you go in with a group of people, that can be something that you pull your money together to make a really neat company happen which I can’t even think of what they would be ’cause it’s kind of innovation that’s not really what I do but, uh, very, very illuminating today, this conversation with Marcia.

 

[00:27:30] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts and if you are enjoying the podcast, I will ask you if you’ll leave me a review, you can relieve a review on Apple Podcast, but you can also leave reviews on Spotify. We have a link in the show notes that if you click on it, it will take you to the review platform that’s actually compatible with you.

 

[00:27:48] So for so long I have tried and wanted to review podcasts on Apple Podcasts, and I simply cannot ’cause I’m not an Apple user, but yeah, our link in the show notes now, if you are not an Apple user and you’ve been like, Linzy, I cannot review your podcast. I’m not an Apple user. The link in our show notes is now this cool link that will lead you to be able to leave a review on whatever platform is actually compatible with your device.

 

[00:28:11] So if you’ve tried to leave a review before, and you are not an Apple Podcast user, click on the link in the show notes. It will give you the options where you can leave us a review, Leave us, you know, a starred review, and that is a great way for other people to find us hear about the podcast. I recently looked at our

 

[00:28:26] reviews and we have 90 5 star reviews, which makes my inner achiever very happy. Obviously, at some point I will not get a five star review, but I was also reading the reviews recently, and it actually was tearful. It’s really moving, hearing the impact that this podcast has so if you have a story to share about the impact of the podcast, please leave me a review.

 

[00:28:46] I want to hear about it and it helps other folks to hear about it too. Thank you so much for joining me today.

 [00:00:00] Mike: The job of an entrepreneur is not to do the job, it’s to create the job. That’s our job. So if you’re a therapist and you love doing therapy, by all means sustain that. If you want to build something of perhaps even greater impact, meaning you can serve even more people, then we have to employ people, but then your job has transitioned to building jobs for them, and the reward when you build jobs for people, AKA grow our economy, is profit.

[00:00:35] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course, Money Skills for Therapists.

 [00:00:51] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is the one and only Mike Michalowicz, creator of Profit First. I try to keep my geeking out, to a minimum, and my fangirling to a minimum.I feel like I succeeded. You can let me know. Today Mike and I talk about some of the biggest conceptions around Profit First that he still sees, coming up, 11 years after he wrote the book. We talk about what profit actually means, like what is profit? and we talk about some of the black and white dichotomous thinking that can come up around profit and people, and moving out of that simplistic thinking around profit and what it is. We talk about the importance of profit specifically for folks who are doing therapy work, healing work, helping work, why we especially need profit, and the cost that happens when our businesses are not profitable. When we’re under financial stress. and we talk about some of the changes that he’s seen in the small business landscape since he wrote the book, and what we need to be more thoughtful about now when it comes to Profit First. Here is my conversation with Mike Michalowicz.. 

So Mike, welcome to the podcast.

 [00:02:10] Mike: It’s a joy to be with you, Linzy. Thanks for having me.

 [00:02:12] Linzy: It is a straight up honor to have you here. I’m going to try not to geek out too, too hard but it is wonderful to have you here to be able to talk to you about Profit First. ‘Cause as we are chatting about a little bit off mic, before we just started recording the work that you have done with creating Profit First and popularizing it has had a huge impact on the small business world. You have made waves.

 [00:02:36] Mike: Yeah. It’s such a blessing. I am so fortunate. It’s been a lifelong dream. I’ve wanted to serve entrepreneurs because of the struggles I’ve experienced. I think the journey can be simplified, maybe not easier, but at least simplified. And it was funny, there was a,a meme. My wife came to me, she’s like, oh, this video got like 5 million views, whatever. So yeah, look at this. I’m watching and it’s this video they’re talking about, American business and stuff. Right in the middle of the guy is reading Profit First. She’s like, look, you’re in pop culture Now, it was not a complimentary video. 

[00:03:10] Mike: It was all about kind of like the American Hustle mentality and how we sacrifice everything in life. So he uses this book, says, look, it’s all about profit, which is not what the book really means.

 [00:03:17] Linzy:  That’s inaccurate. Yeah.

 [00:03:19] Mike: It’s kind of cool to be in that pop culture scene.

 [00:03:21] Linzy: There you go.

 [00:03:22] Mike: It was on Sister Wives. I’m like, that’s kind of fun.

 [00:03:24] Linzy: you go. Yeah,,, yeah, Okay. So you’ve made it onto tv. you’ve got Yeah. Yeah, it has. It has and I’ve heard sometimes the phrase like, if you have haters, then you know, you’ve made it so people, it’s popular enough that people misunderstand it, right? Which says a lot. So I wanted to start with this actually: What do you find are the biggest misconceptions that folks have about Profit First? 

[00:03:47] Mike: I think that meme videos, it was kind of a good indicator. We think that profit first means profit over everything else in a business, that it’s Profit First and people last. That’s often the thing I hear. People are like, oh, I’m people first, not profit first.

[00:04:02] Linzy:  Yes.

[00:04:03] Mike: But what Profit First means is that you need to care for your profitability. It must be the priority otherwise, you can’t care for your people; you can’t care for your organization. It’s not viable. The example I used with therapists is imagine,I’m a patient or you’re the patient and I’m the therapist, and you walk in, in scenario one. I’m like, I’m not profitable. In fact, I’m barely making it. and I’m really desperate to cover my mortgage this month. Let’s do this session or you come in to a therapist who is like, I’m very profitable. The business is extraordinarily healthy. I’ve paid for my mortgage and I have a reserve for the next three months. Are you ready for your session? Who do you want? We all know that the lack of money and the panic to bring it about brings about this ongoing stress and the lack of attention, but when you are profitable and sustainable, you can be all in on your patients. So this is the greatest irony when people don’t know about Profit First is your clients are starving for you to be profitable. They want it for you in the worst way. They may not say those words, but their behavior is totally in alignment with that.

 [00:05:00] Linzy: Absolutely, yeah, sometimes I say that we should be living the lives that our clients think that we’re living or want us to live, right? Because we do, and we see this all the time, especially in the therapy health practitioner, helper, healer space where we’re putting so much, we’re trying to pour so much into making other people well, but you know, we’re pouring from an empty cup, right? And we’re doing all sorts of things that we would not encourage them to do. We wouldn’t be like, you know, what you should do is like work until you’re exhausted for so little money. Go home, cry into a bag of Cheetos, go to bed, start over, right? Like we would never want that life for them and yet sometimes when we are so afraid of being taken care of and being, well that is the life we end up building for ourselves. Right. The financial stretch. and it’s, it’s classic wounded, healer kind of behavior. Like it’s right on target for us, in a lot of ways for the types of folks who, you know, tend to be drawn to these kinds of fields, but yeah, our clients want us to be happy. They want us to be stable. They want us to be able to go on vacation, right? Nobody wants you to be struggling, and as you say, there’s such a cost to that stress, right?

 [00:06:00] Mike: So, and it’s not just with the therapy space. I was reading a study that average retail store owners earn less than if they worked a job at McDonald’s, and the work hours are ridiculous. You know, I have got to stock inventory, I have got to be there all the time. I have got to sacrifice weekends, et cetera, et cetera. And we’re not getting by. Yet the consumer does think, wow, you have got a store that’s been around for five years, you must be wildly successful.We’re the cause of that because we’re the ones that we have to look successful. This gap of perception and reality is what I call the gap of entrepreneurial poverty. We’ve become entrepreneurs ,and we have this impoverished life. It’s not just financial by the way. It’s in so many ways, soulfully, timefully, all these things, but we put this air out there, success, and we believe everyone else has it, but not us. So if there’s one thing I can convey: if you’re a living check by check, you ain’t alone. It’s okay for this moment, but it’s not okay going forward. We have got to fix it because if we fix it, we serve your clients better, you’re fully attentive to them, your life becomes better so you can do more of your craft. Everyone wins if you’re profitable, and admittedly, everyone loses, or at least is compromised if you’re not.

 [00:07:08] Linzy: Yes, yeah, and you know, when you were mentioning that piece of people saying, you know, it’s not Profit First, it’s people first. Something that I think of there is, I think that there’s an old labor slogan, right? Which is like people over profits and so I almost wonder if like, somehow that phrase has gotten plugged in, right? Like people are like, well, if I have to choose, people are profits. I’m choosing people, but you’re like, well, that wasn’t the conversation we were having. People can be very, black and white in their thinking around these things.

 [00:07:31] Mike: Yeah, and it’s not this dichotomy. It’s not either or; they’re complimentary. It should be people and profits, or profits, helps me support my people. I’m very proud that my business has been profitable for 15 consecutive years, every single quarter, and a profit distribution comes out every single quarter, and I’m privileged, I can even share with my team members here.

 [00:07:51] Linzy: Yes.

 [00:07:52] Mike: And I’m proud that it supports an environment we want. There’s not this panic. You see when you’re not profitable. There’s this desperation to get through just tomorrow because we have bills and responsibilities, and that desperation comes into the office. We’re a small shop here in this office, in particular there’s about eight of us. And if I come in stressed, my colleagues will feel it. If they come in stressed, I feel it. So, profit alleviates that, brings about a runway, it brings around, a lack of stress, whatever the alternative is to that and it brings about happier clients, you know?

 [00:08:24] Linzy: Yeah, sustainability has been one of the words I found myself starting to use more like I’ve been working with therapists around finances for six years now, and more and more I find the term sustainable just hits a chord for me. That’s what I want; that’s what most of my clients want. Like most of my clients, they aren’t looking for grandiose lifestyles. They’re not looking for yachts. They’re not even looking for necessarily, you know, impressing the neighbors, but they do know that they need to be okay, right? Like, we all need to be okay, and we all need to be actually enjoying life and so that’s a phrase that really sticks out for me. But profit itself, like, can we dig into your definition of profit or how you talk about profit? ‘Cause I think, too, profit can be this very loaded word, right? Again, this very like, ugh, it’s like an evil word. How do you define profit?

 [00:09:07] Mike: It’s a reward for societal contribution. So I’ll give some context and some stats ’cause they’re pretty shocking. If you look back to kindergarten, when you went, Linzy and I went… Not that we went to the same class necessarily, maybe we did, but there was what, 25 kids or something in our classes, and this data shows that about 17% of those kids, of 17% of the population, will ever start a business. Now you multiply, say 25 by 17 quick math, where three, maybe four kids, very few will ever start a business. So let’s say it’s four. Of that 17%, only 20% do it sustainably, meaning that they’re beyond, you know, your exact word, beyond check to check survival,for five years or longer. And that they’re contributing by offering employment, part-time contractors, hiring vendors. That’s all employment. Well, 20% times 17% is 3%. So if you look at kindergarten, out of 25 kids, 3%. That’s one. One kid pulled it off. Which Linzy, in your case, it’s you. In my class, it’s me. It’s very few. Our job is to be a provider of jobs for the other 24 kids in the class because my friends, your friends, they’re looking for good jobs with good companies to do good things, have a good impact in life, and have a good life themselves, so I have a little kind of quippy saying that. The job of an entrepreneur is not to do the job, it’s to create the job. That’s our job. So if you’re a therapist and you love doing therapy, by all means sustain that, but we do have to make a choice. Are we building a business or building a vocation, or a job? If you’re building a job for yourself, continue the path. If you want to build something of perhaps even greater impact, meaning you can serve even more people, then we have to employ people but then your job has transitioned to building jobs for them. And the reward when you build jobs for people, AKA grow, our economy, is profit. It’s the thank you pass for what you’re doing for our society. So yeah, some of these CEOs make way too much money or these business owners. I understand. I get it. But also look at all the jobs I’ve cascaded out of the work she or he has done. It’s pretty extraordinary. So maybe some people have deference to how much they make, but I would argue they, and you, and we, deserve something for contribution, and that’s what profit is.

 [00:11:24] Linzy: Yeah, and that’s a great definition and that’s a great point about the rarity of entrepreneurship and the rarity of successful entrepreneurship, too. I think, too, for some folks who are achievers, they’re used to getting stuff done. Like, I think about my group practice owners that I work with. They sometimes might take for granted the fact that they’ve been able to build this… Like anybody could build this! Of course, anybody could just hire 20 other therapists, and fill them up, and create a great reputation and have a really strong, you know, quality of clinical care that’s being given to everybody…, like of course anybody can do that. Like they don’t really recognize the rarity and the specialness of what they’ve built, and the person next to them wouldn’t actually be able to build that, but I do think with therapists, especially we do tend to underplay our gifts or our accomplishments and forget that like, no, actually your neighbor down the street couldn’t have started this private practice. The neighbor across the way would not be able to actually help people cure their complex trauma. What you’re doing is special, and you should be rewarded for that.

 [00:12:19] Mike: Totally. I do a little mind game when I walk down the street and I observe other people, I ask myself what’s likely their vocation? And just the way that people carry themselves or dress or something, it’s like, oh, they’re probably doing this and that. It’s rare that I say, oh, that they’re clearly an entrepreneur. And then when I do a more formal survey and ask people, oh, what do you do? Just at a cocktail party that I’ve never been to before meeting new people? It’s the rarity. Someone’s like, I own a business. It’s typically a vocation of some sort and so it really is rare what we do. I think we also undermine our talents. So the fact that you can help someone navigate such a difficult, perhaps, experience and help ’em see to the other side, which is extraordinary. That’s a gift. But because we can do it, it’s like, well, everyone can do it because I can do it, and if I can do it, the world can do it. And that’s not true. That is your God-given talent. That’s extraordinary.

 [00:13:10] Linzy: Yeah. And what I try to remind our students of as well, and everybody listening is that, first of all, you had a natural tendency towards this kind of gift ’cause generally like folks who are really empathetic and able to do that was like a natural gift you got. Then you got a bunch of education, right? And depending on what that education was, you might be a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt for that education. Then often, in the United States… I’m in Canada, so our process here is a little different, but in the United States, often folks end up working for very little money or for free. To get their licensure, and then you start practicing and then at that point you think that you should be giving things away for free and there shouldn’t be any more money. You know, like, and then we move into a self-sacrificing place. It’s like, no, you have just invested so much into yourself. You have so much to offer.  You know, there’s

 [00:13:50] Mike: a saying,when you have a family, you always want to have a doctor, a lawyer in your family, and a therapist. One of my colleagues here is studying to be a therapist. Her name is Jenna. She’s been working on it for about two years now and she goes, as I’m pursuing this, she goes, you wouldn’t believe how many people in my family, like, oh, I have got to tell you something, talk, you know? Right, and she gets this. So as a therapist, you are really in a privileged position, like you’re something that every family wants and if it’s not my family, I’m going to seek it out. So I also understand the cost of that. Because that means even though it’s a business, it is a 24 hour job. You never know when that call is coming from a patient or not.

 [00:14:28] Linzy: Yes, And I think too, something that I’ve reflected on over the years is also because often people were being therapists before they were a therapist, then it’s weird to think that you should get paid well for being a therapist, and maybe even have profit ’cause you’re like, but I’ve been doing this since I was eight. Now, like, I’m supposed to want you to pay me $200 an hour for it. Like I’ve always given this away for free. So there’s a lot of specific barriers, I think, that in the helping professions, you know, that we have to overcome to get to that point of realizing I need profit in my business.

 [00:14:55] Mike:Yes, and I’ll give you a little tip. You know, when it comes to paying people are only as vested in the outcome as they are invested in the service. So if you provide services for free, I’ll see it as valueless. Maybe I appreciate what we’re doing, but if I don’t show up or I miss an appointment, ah, what do I care? It doesn’t cost anything anyway, but if I put $200 into a session. That’s real money. Now I’m acutely listening to what feedback you give me. The conversation matters deeply to me, and the output matters. It’s ironic. The more your customer, client, or patient pays, the more they’ll participate. So we actually have a duty, a responsibility to charge a premium. Fair. I’m not saying gouge by any stretch, but charge a premium to ensure the engagement of the patient in the first place.

 [00:15:43] Linzy: Right, they have to buy in, literally.

 [00:15:44] Mike: Literally.

[00:15:45] Linzy: You need skin in the game. And for folks listening, you know who I know their minds might be going to like, but what about people who don’t have a lot of money? It can be proportional, right, to what somebody’s earning. Like somebody doesn’t need to pay you $500 an hour to be invested in therapy, but there is a literal investment that happens when folks pay you a meaningful amount of money for your services. It’s not trivial at that point.

 [00:16:06] Mike: No, yeah, it can’t be trivial. It cannot be trivial. My mother-in-law is a therapist in Hawaii and she works with some individuals that are in a, we’ll say, impoverished position, and what she does is say, listen, I’m not going to charge you a fee, but you must contribute back societally. So they volunteer time at a local food shelter. That’s the contribution and it’s measured and tracked, and it says, okay, you’ve made that effort. It’s helping society, secondly, they still made an investment, and they link it to her because they have to do that work in order to get the therapy, and it’s been a huge win-win.

 [00:16:37] Linzy: I have never heard of that.

 [00:16:39] Mike: Oh, really?

 [00:16:40] Linzy: For such a creative way of compensation. Yeah, I mean I’ve heard all sorts of creative ways ’cause therapists are endlessly creative. I’ve heard of all sorts of ways that folks come up with different sliding scale points and like you…

 [00:16:50] Mike: You can do that, too. All that.

 [00:16:51] Linzy: You pay me per hour, what you get paid per hour, whatever you make in thousands a year, that’s your hourly fee. I’ve heard all sorts of things. 

 [00:16:56] Mike: Oh yeah. Interesting.

 [00:16:57] Linzy: But yeah, that’s interesting to actually ask somebody to exchange their time and like, contribute to the community. It’s like you are investing and contributing to them, and then they’re turning around and contributing to the community. That’s an interesting model. So I am curious, you know, having done this work now… You first published Profit First in 2014, so it’s been a minute at this point, 11 years. What have you noticed has changed in the small business landscape over the time that you’ve been doing this work? 

[00:17:22] Mike: Well, you know, inflation is one, so the numbers always go up, but it seems to all go up unevenly. It kind of evens out the next plateau, and it’ll be there for a period of time. So Profit First seems to be even more imperative to get done right because all the costs of doing it wrong are just bigger. So that’s one. The second thing is with automation, you know, the rise of AI and so forth, there’s a lot of tools to help see you along. But what’s interesting, we have about 1 million, maybe a little bit over, it’s like 1.1 million businesses globally have deployed Profit First. The ones who deviate from the core system struggle the most. So even though there’s these AI tools, these amazing spreadsheets you can create or download, they’re not intercepting your natural behavior. So this is not a therapy term. I made it up. I call it behavioral intercept, so I don’t even know if that’s a clinical term, I don’t think so.

 [00:18:13] Linzy: It’s good.

 [00:18:13] Mike: Alright, so here’s what a behavioral intercept is. I look at a pattern I have and I insert something in that pattern to either disrupt it or channel to an outcome I want. So the example is for exercise. I want to exercise regularly. This is about. 10, 15 years ago now, I said, I have got to commit to this. I tried to use willpower. No shocker, it didn’t work. I started putting my gym shoes on top of the toilet seat. So when I woke up in the morning, I couldn’t use the bathroom without grabbing my sneakers. That’s what I call behavioral intercept. Well, for our finances, the vast majority of therapists I’ve met managed their numbers at their bank, and the accountant or bookkeeper is saying, don’t do that. You know, you’re not. You have got to balance your books. Your bank is not the place to go. And I’m telling you, if that’s you are walking to the bathroom in the morning, that’s what you have to do, but we have to intercept it there. So we set up the accounts at the bank. So it’s ironic. As things have changed and there’s more of this technology, people are abandoning the sneakers on the toilet seat and saying, I’ll leave ’em in the closet ’cause that’s where I should store them. But if you don’t go in the closet naturally and deliberately, you’re not going to have access to that tool. So, that’s the iron. The basics still work. Set this up at your bank. Have multiple accounts as money flows in, carve it up. Pre-allocate to as intended use before you spend it, and you’ll have clarity. Don’t rely on something that you don’t likely use. It may be more sophisticated and interesting and really razzle dazzle, but if you’re not seeing it every day, by default, you’re just not going to see it.

 [00:19:36] Linzy: Yeah, yeah, and something that I always describe to students when they’re contemplating, should I play with Profit First? Do I do another budgeting method? Profit First is so tangible. You know, the system that you have developed is so tangible. There’s a physicality to it. Like often when I’m talking about managing money in general, but also about Profit First, I do this by moving your body motion, like you have to do it. ‘Cause sometimes like therapists too, because of it not necessarily being what we love, most therapists don’t also love math. The Venn diagram overlap is small. It exists. I’m in there. I’ve met other people who are in there, but mostly this is not where our happy place is. So that physicality of it. Sometimes I find that therapists have a hard time understanding Profit First like they’re like, but I don’t really get it and I’m like, just do it. Like you have to do it. You have to set up your numbers, figure out what makes sense for you, do your distribution, actually feel the money moving. See like, okay, my income account now has zero. My OPEX has 500. That’s a real number. That’s real, right? Like you’re setting up actual boundaries. That’s one of the clinical terms that comes to mind for me is boundaries, like good boundaries, and you can steal from yourself. Like you could just move the sneakers off the toilet and be like, meh, get out of my way, and ignore them, but you’re making a choice to do that at that point.

 [00:20:45] Mike: Correct, there’s consequences.

 [00:20:45] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. You’re actually having to physically override it, and it’s the same. If I want to steal from my staff account to pay for something in opex, I can do that. Nobody’s stopping me. It’s mine, but I have to clock the fact that I’m doing that, right? I have to be honest with myself that I am out of my plan right now, and maybe I’m out of integrity, or maybe I’m doing it on purpose, but there’s no deluding myself.

 [00:21:07] Mike: The most addictive drug in the world is playing out here, too. It’s called dopamine, serotonin. And so it’s a little squirt that comes from our brain when we do these motions. So dopamine’s the anticipatory drug every time you log into your bank account. Once you do this transfer to profit. Perhaps for the first time you see a cash profit accumulating, next time you log in your bank account, dopamine, it’s like you’re about to do the transfer. It’s like, yes! And so it starts building that muscle. So Profit First is by design, I made it to be a repeated process, most businesses do it once a week. You can do it semi-monthly too, but once a week does actually seem to be the optimal rhythm and admittedly, most people ogle every day. So we log in and say, how does that profit account look? And then maybe once a week we do the transfers. All of that’s amazing because it’s all dopamine, serotonin, all the neural pathways start building, and so repeat this process. The other thing that’s beautiful is it doesn’t matter if you’re doing with dollars or tens of dollars or hundreds or thousands as long as you get started. So when you do that first transfer, and you see perhaps it’s a small amount, a dollar in your profit account, it’s like, oh, I never had profit allocated before. That’s pretty cool. The next day it’s three or $4, and it goes to 15, and that building momentum is amazing. I also designed the system that when you withdraw the profit to reward yourself, that never, ever will deplete the entirety of the account. There’s always something there. So the day you have your first dollar profit, there’ll always be a portion left because you’re always halving what’s remaining in that account, and you’re always contributing to it, too. But you’re always halving it, which means you’ll always have a profit distribution every quarter, hopefully always going up, sometimes going down, but never depleted.

 [00:22:41] Linzy: Yeah, It’s a brilliant design. And I do remember in the book you talking about your mom having those cash envelopes, you know, as being the basis for it. I am curious, how did you actually come up with this system? Like was it something organically that you started to build in your own business? How did you develop this? Because this is something that you actually like built and lived.

 [00:23:00] Mike: I’m ground zero for Profit First. I started it 16, 17 years ago, and part of it was that my mom used the envelope system. Part of it was, I remember, we used to go to our church locally and this concept of tithing and contributing, you know, pay first, I remember,the hiding money away, the old cookies in the jar syndrome, if you keep ’em on the counter, it gets consumed. If you hide it, you don’t and so what happened is, at my own desperation, honestly, I was trying to run it the way you’re supposed to run it through an accounting system and all these different things and it wasn’t working. And I said, I’m just going to go back to what I know. And my gosh, all of a sudden, profit was accumulating. My business didn’t change. It almost felt magical, like how could I make more profit? Well, I was just running the business more appropriately. I started understanding where the money was flowing and not spending money superfluously, And that’s how I developed a system. It was through trials and tribulations for about three years before I started documenting the story for the Wall Street Journal. I wrote the article. It took off. And I said, I have got to write a book about this and that’s how the book came about.

 [00:23:58] Linzy: Clarity is immensely powerful. You know, like just seeing it and I think that in so many ways too, it can feel like magic ’cause you’re making better decisions without having to use all of the cognitive willpower that it would’ve taken before to look at a bank account full of money and be like, okay, there’s 20,000 there. But I think 12 is for taxes, and I think like rent is coming out next week, so I need to think about that. Like there’s so much fuzziness. And I find too, especially for the types of folks who listen to this podcast and like the therapists and health practitioners that I work with who are so used to being so competent, that having fuzziness around money can really undermine your confidence. And, you know, you just end up feeling totally clueless and overwhelmed. And so you could still have $20,000 but feel like you have nothing ’cause you don’t know if it’s yours.

 [00:24:41] Mike: That’s right.

 [00:24:42] Linzy: Whereas just allocating it so you’re like, this much is taxes, this much is operating expenses. I’m covered for all of next month. I don’t have to worry about that. This much is my paycheck. It is so powerful, even though it’s the exact same amount of money.

 [00:24:54] Mike: Totally there, there’s a thing called the primacy effect, where we put great significance in the first thought and lessen the subsequent thoughts. I’m just finishing up a personal finance book, and so here I talk about an experiment. A thousand dollars is deposited into your account. You need to buy a new television. It’s $500. Can you afford it? Well, the answer is. I got a thousand dollars, it’s 500 and I say, the next thing is rent is due at seven 50. Can you afford it? And they’re like, I can’t but I say, scenario two, a thousand dollars comes in. Seven 50 is allocated toward your rent automatically. Two 50 is available for spending on whatever you want. A TV for 500 is what you need. Can you buy it? And it’s like, obviously no. So to your point, it removes that cognitive load. But without that, whatever our next urgent feeling is, we think all the money’s available for that purpose and blow it, and then rent comes due, and we’re in real trouble.

 [00:25:43] Linzy: Yeah, I mean, behavioral economics is a big part of all of this, right? Like once you start to understand those kinds of behaviors, these things that can feel so personal, and also for so many of us can be kind of shameful. Like, oh my god, I’m so bad at money. I’m a mess. Once we start to understand those kinds of mechanisms, we can work with them, right? Like then we have somewhere to go. I’m very excited to hear you’re writing a personal finance book, by the way and Mike, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. For folks who want to get further into Profit First want to learn more about you and the, basically, can I call it the Prophet First Universe? Is that fair at this point?

 [00:26:17] Mike: Yeah

 [00:26:18] Mike: Sure. I love that. They can go to my website. So my name’s Mike Michalowicz, mikemichalowicz.com, but the shortcut is Mike Motorbike. So anyone listening, you know, in their car or whatever right now, go to mike motorbike.com. It’s easy to remember and you’ll find all my resources there plus the books.

 [00:26:31] Linzy: That’s a good shortcut. Easier than Michalowicz.

 [00:26:33] Mike: Yeah, by far.

 [00:26:34] Linzy: Still alliterative, so we like Mike Motorbike.

 [00:26:38] Linzy: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Mike, for joining me today.

 [00:26:40] Mike: It is a pleasure.

 [00:26:53] Linzy: It was such a treat to get to chat with Mike today on the podcast, and something that stuck out to me that I don’t remember him talking about in the book, Profit First, is about that emotional load that comes when money’s not working for us in our small businesses. And in the therapy and health practitioner space how we’re going to end up inevitably bringing that into a relationship with our clients. You know, that stress, maybe a little bit of desperation, is going to be there in the relationship ’cause that’s what we’re carrying with us. and so the cost of not having money, not having a business that is working for you isn’t just a financial cost, right? And we know this, it’s an emotional cost. There’s so much that is painful about our businesses not working. So fun to talk with Mike today. So interesting to see my own language, and thinking about Profit First, which I’ve been having this conversation with students for the last six years to be able to have, conversation using some of that language with the person whose brain it actually came from. I feel like Mike also has a great illustration here of what can happen when you’ve just figured something out for yourself, and you turn around and teach it. I know therapists and health practitioners, as he said, we tend to undervalue what we know, but this is a system that he developed organically through his work. And in the work that we do, we’ve often solved certain problems for ourselves or we do have specific expertise on things, and we’re often scared to teach and speak up but when we do, like Mike Michalowicz, we can have a big impact, and change the way that people think about a certain thing. And Mike has certainly had a huge impact in how small business owners think about their business finances and I know it’s been a tremendous positive impact in my own business and in the businesses of so many folks that I teach. 

We do teach Profit First in Money Skills for Therapists, in my signature course. Not till later. We don’t start with budgeting. We get into budgeting later, but Profit First is something that I suggest most therapists at least try, just try Profit First. ‘Cause those pieces that Mike and I were talking about today about the tangibility and the clarity that you get, it’s really hard to get from any other budgeting method truly. And I find most people benefit for at least spending some time using Profit First and feeling what it feels like to physically move their money around and have that clarity.So I so appreciate Mike joining me today for this conversation. 

If you are enjoying the podcast, it’s so nice when you can leave a review for us. We have this beautiful magic link now in the show notes that will take you to a page that will direct you to wherever you can leave a review. So if you’re not an Apple Podcast listener, like I am not, it will direct you to other places that you can leave a review for us, like Spotify. If you have three minutes to do that, I really appreciate it. It’s a great way for other folks to hear about the podcast, and if you would be interested in getting my support in implementing Profit First and getting clarity in your business around your finances, as well as working on your overall relationship with money and understanding money, I do all of that with you in Money Skills for Therapist. So if you want to learn more about Money Skills for therapists, you can click on the link in the show notes. You just need to check out my masterclass, which is like my intake process. That’s where you’ll learn about the course, what I teach, my approach, see if it’s a fit for you, and that will get you an invite to Money Skills for Therapists. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

[00:00:00]  Linzy: Hello and welcome back to another Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapist podcast. These are our short and sweet Friday episodes where I answer questions from you, the lovely therapists and health practitioners and coaches who make up our wonderful community. Today we have another question from Katie.

[00:00:20]Katie submitted a previous question. This is her second question you’ll hear at the beginning of her question. She asks if it’s okay, and yeah. It’s okay. Two questions is great. So here is our question from Katie for today.

[00:00:30] Katie: I don’t know if I’m allowed to submit two questions, but I am going to and see if that’s okay. My name is Katie Rievert. I am a therapist in private practice in Arkansas.And I’m fairly new to private practice. I started last March. and so I am wondering a couple things about, you know, is it possible to take insurance?

[00:00:56] I’m in the US. Is it possible to take insurance and make enough money to be able to like, do the things you want? I feel like everyone nowadays is moving to private pay, and I think there’s part of me that feels like I don’t want to do all the work of the marketing to do private pay, and to wait to build the caseload, and to also only cater to clients who could afford that.

[00:01:26] So I have some mixed feelings about that, but I also don’t want to work and see 30 to 35 clients a week. So I would love some advice, some ideas about how to hold the amount of work that I want to put in, and also be accessible while also not wanting to overload my schedule. It feels like I have to choose either or, and

[00:01:52] one day I feel one way and the next day I feel the other way. So, yeah, I would love some help finding some clarity and understanding about how to think about that for the future.

[00:02:03] Linzy: This is such a common question, Katie, and is such a necessary question to have to work your way through working in the American system specifically. So my answer is yes. There are certainly ways that you can take insurance, and still have the life that you want, but it absolutely depends on your numbers.

[00:02:26] So the way that I think about this is we each have our own equation. We each have our own equation of how the money can work so that we can both have that amount of sessions each week that, you know, we don’t finish the week feeling like an absolute corpse to put it bluntly, you know, that we’re not working so much that we’re actually sacrificing our own wellbeing and mental health.

[00:02:45] And there’s a different number for everybody. There is an equation where you can work that amount of sessions for, you know, fees that make sense, and make enough money that you are okay. And that is a totally different equation for everybody. So actually in my course Money Skills for Therapists,

[00:03:01] I have a tool that I developed that helps you do this, because the math sometimes is surprising the way that it works. But, there is an equation for everyone. So something I want to reflect to you is I am hearing some black and white thinking here between, you know, taking insurance or not taking insurance.

[00:03:16] And you can actually blend both, right? So once you’re clear on your number, Katie, like if you identify for yourself, for instance, okay, in order for me to be, well, I need to take home.$5,000 a month after taxes, right? Once you identify that number, then you can reverse engineer that into a practice to see, okay, how can I accomplish that?

[00:03:38] If I need to bring home 5,000, there’s going to be some tax money set aside for that. This is how much it costs me to run my business. These are my operating expenses. How much money needs to come into the door to cover all of those things? And then, based on the different insurances that you take, or a fee that you would charge for out of pocket, what is the mix of sessions that would get you there?

[00:03:57] So for instance, like let’s say at the end of that, you know, math that I mentioned, I look at what I need to make and taxes and operating expenses. Let’s say I identify that I need to make $8,000 a month. So $8,000 a month. If I take that and I divide it by, let’s say my insurance reimbursement fee is like one 10, so one 10.

[00:04:22] If I take 8,000, I divide it by 110. I’m just doing this on my phone calculator. I can see that I would need to work 72 sessions a month.So if I take 72 sessions a month, I divide that by four. There’s actually 4.33, weeks in a month, but I’m going to make it a little bit toned down, a little bit more conservative, then I see that that’s 18.

[00:04:40] I would say it’s, it’s even higher because I don’t actually want to work 52 weeks of the year. So then I can work that into the equation, but then I have the opportunity to gut check, right? Like when I look at this, I’m like, okay, 18 sessions a week. If I was fully on insurance, how does that sit with you?

[00:04:53] Is that a number that you’re like, oh yeah, that’s super easy. That would be totally great. Or I’ll tell you, when I look at this number, I’m like, Nope. I cannot do 18 sessions a week. Not all the time, not consistently, right? And so then you have the opportunity to start to play, right? And, and in the tool that I have, we do have the functionality to look at, okay, if you have a blend of like that out OFP pocket and insurance.

[00:05:12] But now we start to see, okay, what does the average fee have to be to get you to the amount of sessions that you want to have? There is an equation there for you, Katie, and being curious about your numbers and sitting down and playing, and just doing a little bit of math, even if it’s just pen to paper, is going to help you start to ground in, okay, to get to where you need to be financially, what needs to come in the door, and how can you get there?

[00:05:32] Is it that you have a practice that is 60% insurance at that 110 fee, but then you also have 40% of your clients out of pocket for 150? Does that get you there? Does it have to be more out of pocket and less insurance? There’s many ways to get there. And something else too, Katie, you know, depending on the reimbursements,

[00:05:53] you can also choose to be out of pocket, but have sliding scale spots, again, based on the numbers that are going to work, that aren’t going to hurt you. Like the accessibility piece is important. Something to remember, though, is like when we’re working for the insurance system, there is profit there, there is money being made, it’s just not being made by you.

[00:06:12] But it is a way for you to connect with folks who have coverage but wouldn’t be able to pay you out of pocket. But you can also think about are there other ways to reach those folks? Can you have a practice that’s mostly in a pocket, but you have four dedicated sliding scale spots that are super clear, super simple.

[00:06:27] People don’t have to navigate insurance at all. You’re able to offer those spots for a hundred bucks an hour for four clients and fully show up for those clients because you’re not exhausted from overworking. We get to do it our way, and you get to do it your way as you’re building your practice.

[00:06:41] Right? And that’s one of the beautiful things about private practice is we have all of that power to do it our way, but we also have the responsibility to think about what we actually want. So that’s where I would suggest you start looking at what you need, looking at what would have to happen in your practice to make that happen.

[00:06:54] And then that will help you start to understand how insurance can fit into this picture.

[00:06:59] So thank you so much for that question, Katie. It is one that I know so, so, so many therapists grapple with,and I appreciate you submitting it for our episode today. If you, like Katie, also have a question that you’d like me to answer on an upcoming episode,

[00:07:13] all you need to do is click on the link in the show notes or head over to my podcast page on our website. You’ll see a little button there where you can just press record. Just introduce yourself, gimme a little bit of context and share your question. I would be really happy to answer it on an upcoming episode of Feelings and Finances. And if you’re also grappling with

[00:07:31] some financial questions, stepping into private practice, like Katie is, and you are interested in getting my help, this is where my course Money Skills for Therapist comes in. This course is all about taking you from money, confusion to shame, and calm and confidence, and helping you build a practice that works for you from the very beginning.

[00:07:46] So we’ll put a link in the show notes for that as well.To get into the course, the first step is to watch my masterclass, the four step framework to getting your private practice finances in order, which will give you a sense of me, what I’m teaching, how I teach it, so you can see if it’s a fit.

[00:08:00] And you’ll then get your invitation for Money Skills for Therapists. So thank you so much, Katie, for your question,and thank you for joining me today.