Hannah [00:00:01] I am taking away a renewed sense of excitement and energy around these intensives. It does really more and more seem like my next steps and I’m also taking away my best self can run my business now, it doesn’t have to be the poor little people pleaser that was just in there trying to help things out. She doesn’t have to run the show. She’s not alone. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. I am excited today to be bringing you the first coaching session of season five with a therapist who is in Money Skills For Therapists right now and who is so lovely as you’re about to find out. Her name is Dr. Hannah Joharchi. Hannah is an Iranian American and White psychologist in California and Florida, who focuses on trauma recovery with folks who’ve survived medical trauma, intergenerational trauma, and developmental trauma. And people recovering from depression and anxiety. In our conversation today, Hannah brought up a topic that I think is close to many of our hearts, which is how to balance her social justice values, her people-pleasing tendencies that she talks about, how they actually kind of those people-pleasing tendencies kind of built her business, balancing those parts of her with actually creating a business that’s sustainable and take care of her needs and to stop the cycle of burnout that she has been in, previous to starting to do this work. We get into some- a really lovely space around connecting with, you know, different parts of herself that are there and starting to even start to develop muscles about being connected to her own needs. So if you’re someone who struggles with people pleasing or who you know, philosophically struggles with, how do you balance business and social justice when you know you need to make a living, but you also really care about people and issues and want to contribute where you can? This is going to be a great episode for you. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Hannah Joharchi. So, Hannah, you are a student in Money Skills For Therapists right now. We’re going to get into a coaching piece. We’ve had a coaching conversation before through the course, and you actually won the coaching call through the Money Momentum Challenge. So we’re going to have another one later, but this is going to be our podcast coaching time together. And so, Hannah, what did you want to bring to this coaching session today? What topic? 

Hannah [00:03:01] Yeah, so I am forever grateful for Money Skills For Therapists and you and your team. I’ll just say that because it has just opened my eyes to a lot of things that I’ve been making some changes in my business and I’ve kind of paired it with some of the inner work that I’m doing and just realizing that, you know, for years I’ve sort of like worked in places and then done my private practice on the side, only to keep burning myself out and running up my own personal credit card debt. And so while I’m grateful to do this work, it wasn’t sustainable. So I had to, over the course of like the past year or so, really look at what I can and can’t do as opposed to like stuffing down the part of me that wants to people-please. I highlighted that part, gave that part space, but just like I don’t have my people pleaser running my business anymore. 

Linzy [00:03:54] Right. 

Hannah [00:03:55] Yes. I’m just trying to come to you to say, okay, how do I navigate this balance between the important value of social justice for me while also having a sustainable business? So I thought maybe we could talk about that. 

Linzy [00:04:09] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so you had mentioned, you know, before we started recording, the way you’d summarize it is your people pleaser kind of led the building of your business or that part was really front and center. 

Hannah [00:04:22] Absolutely. I could like I could go and go and do and do, and now I’m just like, Oh, okay. Without the people pleaser sort of driving my bus, which is just kind of a part of me, but like my best self, right, is sort of running the business. It’s different. It’s really different. Yes. 

Linzy [00:04:42] Okay. So tell me about what are some of the changes that you’ve made so far in this effort to have more balance? Because what I’m hearing before is it was out of balance, like too much of that caregiving people pleasing, leading to burnout and financial debt. 

Hannah [00:04:55] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:04:55] Right. What are some of the changes or tweaks that you’ve made so far in this process? 

Hannah [00:05:01] Okay, so some of the things have been: I used to have a couple of therapy scholarship slots and I no longer have those. And that’s a great thing, but it’s- I’m not like inclusive therapists. I’m not a whole directory or a whole group of people. I’m just a super small business, still sort of navigating the foundations of my business so that doesn’t fit. I no longer have that, which is probably saving thousands of dollars a year. I guess I kind of pare down the work that I do for free on the side that I don’t know if it’s reaching as many people. So like, for example, I was on a trauma recovery podcast with a good friend of mine and we’ve stopped doing that. So that frees up some time. I guess the work that I’m doing around my mindset will probably be the biggest thing in Money Skills For Therapists and just highlighting, you know, and with my work with business on a budget around the mindset and the value of what I do, increasing rates, that type of thing. 

Linzy [00:06:08] Okay. Yeah. So I’m hearing partially you’ve let go of some things that were more, you know, more like social justice or like maybe accessibility, like a podcast is a nice, accessible way to share information. But you mentioned like the scholarship, it’s kind of like a bit big for where you are in terms of your ability to sustain something like that. And I think that’s a good way to talk about like a scholarship is something that’s given when there’s extra that therefore can be used by somebody who can’t pay. But you’re not at that place in your business at this time. And your podcast- I’m getting from you that you don’t think it was necessarily having the reach that made it worth the time? 

Hannah [00:06:45] Yes. And it was just like, I get nervous. I’m like, I don’t know what to say. Like, I feel like, yeah. So there was like, a few things, but yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:52] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It wasn’t like your happy place. 

Hannah [00:06:55] Was not my- I would rather write, like, blogs. I would rather be writing than talking. Okay. 

Linzy [00:07:00] Okay. You and I are the opposite. We could probably help each other out in business. What I’m hearing now, though, is like, there’s this need or desire to make sure you’re balancing. Right? Like, we don’t want to throw out all the things that have to do with your social justice values or the folks that you love to serve. But also, there’s been many things that have been contributing to burnout and financial debt that, you know, need to go. So tell me right now, what does that conflict look like between kind of that like people pleasing caregiving and social justice and like wanting to be financially well, not burnt out, feel empowered, or all the positives you’re looking for on the other side? 

Hannah [00:07:37] Okay. So that is a great question. I guess it kind of looks like some indecision. So when, for example, something comes my way, do I help out? Do I not? So still some of that residual like back and forth with them and just not knowing, I guess, what it will look like to contribute? Yeah, what that would look like and what will feel like when this part of me that just wants to please and help people out isn’t really running the show.  

Linzy [00:08:06] Mm hmm. And with the other part, like, I’m curious, you know, we’re talking parts language. It seems very IFS-E language. Is that is that the school of thought that you’re in? 

Hannah [00:08:16] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:08:16] Yeah. So internal family systems for folks who are not familiar with the modality, you know you made reference to kind of self earlier, you know being more in self energy. I am also curious are there other aspects or parts of yourself that you notice stepping up that you would like to have leading your business? 

Hannah [00:08:33] I love that, yeah. There’s the parts of me that are just kind of genuinely motivational that aren’t necessarily trying to take care of others, but just happy to be around people, happy to like, say, kind, motivational, uplifting things and just kind of be like a nice energy around folks. So I guess I’ve never thought of that. Be like, I would love for that part of me to sort of be one of the leaders in the show here. 

Linzy [00:09:03] Like that part of you that loves people. I have that part, too. That’s a big part of why, you know, I like to do the work that I do. So that’s one part. I’m curious. Are there any parts like your you know, you’re talking about the work that you’ve been doing in Money Skills, some other work that you’ve been doing, you know, in terms of money mindset. Are there any parts of you that you’ve connected with or any energies around like being a leader or taking care of your own needs or empowerment or what have you kind of connected with so far and yourself around those things? 

Hannah [00:09:33] MM Yeah. So like basically are you saying the other parts of me that are taking care of myself? 

Linzy [00:09:41] Yeah, that would certainly be an important part of it. Yeah. 

Hannah [00:09:43] I’m not really sure. That’s a really good question too. I guess, but like concrete stuff, like what I do to take care of myself, like meditation. 

Linzy [00:09:51] No, I was thinking even in terms of just like parts of yourself, right? Because we were talking about there’s the caregiving people pleasing, right, that has led. And that has led to burnout. Right? Because that, you know, when we’re coming from that energy in our self, there’s no really connection to our own needs, but it’s just like, well, own needs aside, this person needs this and this person needs this. Of course, there’s endless people with unmet needs. Then I’m hearing there’s another side to be identified that’s kind of part of your business, which is that you really like being around people and you really like people, right? And there’s that connection. I’m wondering how you connected with any boss energy, accountant energy, bookkeeper energy. Like, is there anything like that that you’ve started to develop in yourself of a part of you? What I’m starting to think about Hannah is like, what part of you is tracking your needs and know when your cup is full enough that other parts of you can also have their needs met. Right. 

Hannah [00:10:39] No. Okay. This is why I didn’t understand your question. 

Linzy [00:10:42] Yes. 

Hannah [00:10:43] No. There is no accounting in there. No, there’s no there’s no. I mean, like that is mind-blowing to me when you talk about like spreadsheets and being accountable every week. You know, my accountability buddy just texted me from the group and it’s like all this connection. I’m looking at the stuff that I shy away from or run away from. Really Just yeah, I think probably freeze around. So no, I have not even begun to think about like, is there an inner boss or inner accountant? 

Linzy [00:11:13] Mm hmm. 

Hannah [00:11:13] It’s all the propaganda around, like emotional labor being less valuable than some of the tech work or whatever around us. And so I have not yet really let those accountant boss parts of me, show up. 

Linzy [00:11:29] Mm hmm. And you don’t need to have an accountant part, by the way. I have one of those, but, like. That’s not required. 

Hannah [00:11:33] I like it though. 

Linzy [00:11:36] Like, you know, in the list of options, because, you know, what I’m thinking about here is, like, connecting with clarity around what you need. Because I’m hearing there’s balance here. And what I’m hearing there’s been a lack of balance. There’s been this like over giving and this like pouring from yourself, which leads to burnout, maybe repeated burnout. Is that accurate? 

Hannah [00:11:55] Oh, yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:56] Yeah. And what I’m not hearing yet is like a part that’s really gauging where you’re at, like your needs emotionally, energetically, but also financially, to have that eye on, ‘okay, because I’m here, now I can give’, right? I have my own oxygen on and now I can run this amazing group at a reduced or, you know, you know, free. Right, or now I can write, you know, my blog articles that will go out to thousands of people who might never be able to afford to pay me. Right. And so I’m wondering, Hannah, like, if you can think about that a part that can have track of your own needs, what do you think that might feel like internally? First of all, what do you- we’re just going to kind of connect and imagine. Be curious what would feel different if there were- you were tracking your own needs on a regular basis, even in a small way. 

Hannah [00:12:50] I guess as you ask, I’m already starting to feel calm. Yeah. I feel a sense of calmness in my heart. I can imagine feeling empowered to kind of move ahead with things and less scared and scrambling and, like, trying to look at a bunch of different things at once. But I already feel it in my body and my heart right now. Just feeling a sense of calm. 

Linzy [00:13:14] Mm hmm. And from that place of calm and like, you know, the lack of all the stuff we just talked about, what kind of actions could come from this place to help you be connected with where you’re at and basically how much you can get, what you have to give. 

Hannah [00:13:30] I think it has the feeling like I would slow down on some of the projects. I constantly have these ideas and I love doing some of them and some of them, you know, I think it would just have me slowing down. Like I don’t have to necessarily jump into this and jump into that and do these supports for other therapists or things like that when really I could kind of just focus on my own clinical caseload right now and stuff like that. So it just has me thinking I would slow down. 

Linzy [00:14:06] Right. So there’d be stuff that you might delay or maybe even put aside. Yeah. And thinking about this, like, what information do you need to have to be able to guide you in a more grounded way, you know, in balancing these two parts of you, Right? Or in balancing, maybe it’s like balancing your desire for social justice and to, you know, take care of others, with probably the needs of many, many other parts of you on the other side. What could that actually look like for you? 

Hannah [00:14:37] Yeah, I guess I’m just thinking I kind of need reminders to check in with these parts. Right. So I think that, like, even just getting outside, looking at my board with my pictures of what I’m hoping for for this year. Just having those regular things in place helps me to do that check in. Mm hmm. Everything, you know, sounds great here. And then I’ll forget. So I think that checking in regularly. 

Linzy [00:15:09] Yes. Well, let’s think now about the money side of it. 

Hannah [00:15:13] Yeah. Right. You’re so good at this stuff. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:15:19] So as we think about connecting with your financial needs, what information is missing right now, Hannah, or what could be added to, you know, the way that you’re already showing up for yourself and taking care of money, that’s going to help you to start to have this gauge of of where you’re at and your capacity to do these expanded projects. 

Hannah [00:15:39] Okay, So that has me thinking of, I’m in a like, generative place where I’m feeling like supervision is super fun. So thinking that I could branch out on what I already love. If you’re asking about money, you know, it does, you know, I’d love to say we do it for nothing. But no, like, that’s what all this is about. Like, I don’t know. So I think I could look more into supervising and some of that, like, generativity through that, being the supervisor I didn’t necessarily have. I had a couple of really amazing ones and a couple of super inappropriate ones. So I can be doing more of that. And, you know, I, I’ve talked with you about this for a second, but I love what’s happening with the EMDR Intensives, so maybe I could figure out how to improve my copy or like have people coming in through my EMDR intensives more because I just love when they come in for like a short chunk of targeted work and feel they’re like, This has changed my life, that’s already helping. All that feels so good to be doing that. So maybe I can just do more of what I like. 

Linzy [00:16:50] Yeah, right. Which I think is like generally good life advice, right? It’s just like, just do more of what you like, do more of it, light you up. And what I’m hearing here too, Hannah, is like those things that you really like are also things that are going to pay you well, right? So they’re not the things where you’re also like, well, it’s $5. Oh, you don’t have $5? Okay, that’s fine. I don’t need to pay rent. These are the things that actually will make your practice more financially sustainable at the same time. Yeah, right. So sounds like there’s an alignment there. 

Hannah [00:17:21] You’ve got it. Exactly. 

Linzy [00:17:23] So now I want to get a little nitty gritty into your numbers for you. How are you going to actually get clear on the numbers that you need to see from these beautiful, generative things that you’re already excited about to know when you’ve actually made it to that point where your financial needs are being met? 

Hannah [00:17:45] Yeah. Yeah. I think if I. Okay. So you’ve got me understanding what I need a month from what I make per month after like taxes and running the show. Right. And I think I would need to start adding at least one more EMDR intensive a month at this point. If I think about it numbers wise, that would also have me seeing a little bit less clients on the the weekly basis. Right. 

Linzy [00:18:14] So is that all you need is like one more to close that gap between what you need monthly and where you are monthly. 

Hannah [00:18:21] Yeah. If I moved from where I’m at and just went to intensives, which sounds really fun in my heart, I’m like, That sounds great. That would mean that I would need a few intensives a month. So that would mean I would need specifically three. 

Linzy [00:18:22] Three. Okay, so. 

Hannah [00:18:22] Numbers wise, you know. 

Linzy [00:18:40] Yeah. So are you saying that with three EMDR intensives a month, you could cover your financial needs for the month? 

Hannah [00:18:45] Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:47] Wow. 

Hannah [00:18:49] That is weird. That is not what I was expecting. Yeah, cause you have me doing the pre-math of, like, in the course of, like, what do you need? What you make? And I’m like, Oh, that would be covered so quickly. 

Linzy [00:19:02] So fast. Yeah. So I mean, that’s interesting information and noticing too, like where you’re getting that like sparky, excited, lean towards feeling, you know, because the other thing that you could play with Hannah is like what if you did transition to a practice for a while that was just intensives and you really worked on like honing your marketing to call in those people and like really positioned yourself as an EMDR intensive therapist. What do you think it would be like for you personally to be doing three intensives a month? And that’s the work that you do for a little while? 

Hannah [00:19:37] That would be so fun. Like, it scares me. I’ll be honest. There’s a part of me like, how would I get people to come and blah, blah, blah. But if I don’t think about that part and I think about the people who have already seen for intensives, yes, I’m like, This would be so freaking fun. Like they’d walk away, like, really happy and satisfied and I would love it. 

Linzy [00:19:56] And if you were seeing doing three Intensive, how how long is it intensive? Is it a- 

Hannah [00:20:01] Typically it’s like three. There’s no typical. It could be whatever the person needs. But I love doing like the three three-hour chunks. So it’s like a total of ten. With the one hour of like, Hello, what are your dreams? Blah blah blah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:13] Okay. Total of 10 hours. Mm hmm. Okay. So is it like three days in a row? 

Hannah [00:20:18] It could be like every other, so it could be like a Monday to Friday. 

Linzy [00:20:21] Okay. Okay. So if that’s all the work you’re doing, we’re just. We’re. We’re leaning in and imagining how you had those three intensives a month. So, like, 10 hours with those three different people. What space would that open up in your life for all these other things that you’re passionate about? 

Hannah [00:20:39] Oh, my gosh. There would be no problem to write. Like all the free blogs that I write, there would be no problem to help fellow Iranian-American therapists. There would be no problem to support, you know, our LGBTQ community. So it would be it would be at that point like. You know, where am I most useful? And it would be like this, I can imagine, like this stream of energy. It would be coming from a whole different place than like, I’m exhausted, I hope I can stay awake during this thing, you know? 

Linzy [00:21:14] Right? Right. Yes. So you get to change three people’s lives a month in a profound way, and then you have extra energy to work on the support the folks that you care about and the issues that you’re passionate about in the rest of your month. 

Hannah [00:21:31] Okay, This sounds amazing. Yeah. This is so good. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:36] Yeah. What are you noticing? Thinking about this. 

Hannah [00:21:38] It sounds really fun. I’m also, like, thinking about personal stuff. I’m like, I want to go camping and like have some more fun, too. 

Linzy [00:21:44] Yeah, man. Yeah. Which is what life is about, right? And like, when we do those things, when we go camping or we have some cool project or we go on a trip where we have, like, beautiful time with our partner, we also show up differently as therapists, right? Because we’re actually filled up and inspired and excited and like that comes across too, in the work that we do. People can feel that from you. 

Hannah [00:22:06] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:22:08] So Hannah, coming to the end of our time together today, what are you taking away from our conversation? 

Hannah [00:22:16] I am taking away a renewed sense of excitement and energy around these intensives. It is really more and more seem like my next steps. And I’m also taking away nice sort of like my best self can run my business so it doesn’t have to be the poor little people pleaser. I was just in there trying to help things out. She doesn’t have to run the show. She can kind of. She’s not alone, right? Yeah. 

Linzy [00:22:45] Yeah, absolutely. And something that’s been in my mind, too, as we’re talking, is also like different seasons of life, like what we want and what fits. And like, it feels to me, you know and we have talked about this a little bit before too, as we said, like these EMDR intensives seem to really make sense for your season of life right now. Like, they’re exciting, you know, and they’re maybe seasonal. Like, we were like, That’s too intense. I don’t want to do that. But right now, this is what lights you up, right? And so it’s like, what can you do to actually make that happen and let this be the business that you want and need right now? Let that business be a reality. 

Hannah [00:23:20] Absolutely. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:23:22] Awesome. Well, thank you, Hannah. 

Hannah [00:23:24] Thank you so much. 

Linzy [00:23:39] In my conversation with Hannah, there really was this moment where, you know, listeners would have noticed that I think we both realized, like what I was talking about, you know, being able to connect with this boss part of yourself or this accountant, like a part that can be keeping track of your actual needs and understanding what you need. Or Hannah was just like, Oh, that’s just not been a part of me that’s been at the table. Not a muscle that she had consciously developed. But as soon as we started even talking about that concept, there was a big shift. Right. And this, you know, she talked about peace in her heart of what it’s like to actually have a part of you, or if parts language is not language you speak, just to be tracking your own needs and having those as part of what is front and center as you’re thinking about your business and giving and justice and what you can do for people who have less than you or for issues that you care about. There is such a huge shift in energy, and even though it was a new concept that took a second for us to kind of sink into, when we did, Hannah immediately started to connect with like spark and excitement and like, you know, immediately could start to identify the work that not only that she loves and that she’s excited about, but that actually will get her to that place of having her financial needs met. And when we got to that point in the conversation where I realized that she only needed three EMDR intensives to cover her month, I was just like, Whoa, if this is what you love and this lights you up and you only need to do three a month to have your needs met like this is this is obviously the direction that your business wants you to go, that your heart wants you to go. So, so powerful. Just when we do actually get in touch with what we really want, you know, like the heart knows, you know, we need to have the math which comes from the brain. We need to understand our financial needs. But once you’re in touch with those financial needs and Hannah is, as she said, because of the work she’s been doing in Money Skills For Therapists, she knows that monthly number, doing the math, realizing that she only needs that one more intensive or three intensives total, then you can actually connect with your body and that wisdom of what is the work you want to do to actually get there and how can you get there, right? So there is that real mind-body combo where wisdom lives. So grateful to Hannah for coming on the podcast today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. We share free, practical and emotional content on there all the time about money and private practice. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate if you could leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way for folks to find us. Thanks for listening today. 

Avivit [00:00:03] From a client’s perspective, they are comparing you as a therapist to somebody else in your area or somebody else on Psychology Today. If you don’t stand out, then it might be a great fit for you that that client that’s looking for your services, but they might just not notice you. A brand gives you an opportunity to stand out. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Avivit Fisher. She is the owner of Redd Strategy, which is a marketing consultancy for therapy business owners. So she is a marketer by training, lots of corporate experience, and she has turned her skillset to therapists to help therapists in private practice attract their ideal clients through branding, digital marketing, and advertising. So today Avivit and I get into the importance and the value of having a clear brand for your practice. So if you’re listening right now and you’re thinking, I don’t know if I have that. Keep listening because we get into kind of what makes up a brand and also something that I really notice in my conversation with her is it made me feel like, right, it is easy to create a brand. I don’t want to give too much away. So keep listening if that’s something you feel like you really need. We also talk about the connections between branding and marketing and your ability to basically have control over your practice finances. Be able to set your fee, be able to protect yourself from burnout, the connection of that branding to that. And then finally, we talked about the value of thinking big, which is a bit of a passion topic of mine right now in terms of, you know, thinking big financially in your practice. And Avivit talks about the importance of thinking big in terms of marketing beyond your own private practice to really understand what’s happening in the therapist industry as a whole. Lots of great tidbits today in our conversation. Here is my conversation with Avivit Fisher. So Avivit, welcome to the podcast. 

Avivit [00:02:41] Thank you so much for having me here. I’m very excited for our conversation. 

Linzy [00:02:44] Yeah, me too. So the work that you do, we were just saying we basically share the same audience, we’re helping the same folks, but we’re helping them with different things. So your passion area is around branding and marketing. 

Avivit [00:02:58] Right. Yes. 

Linzy [00:02:59] So I’m curious just to get started, what do you see as the value of of creating a strong brand as a therapist? Why is it worth it to do that work? 

Avivit [00:03:07] Creating a strong brand, really, I want to start with what is the brand really. Because I think for a lot of people, especially in therapy, it’s such a vague concept. A brand is really a perception of your services, is a perception of you as a professional and of your business with your private practice. So the value of creating a brand is that you know exactly what you represent. You know exactly who you’re speaking to and you know exactly what you’re saying to that, to that audience that you’re speaking to. Because, you know, if you don’t create this brand, if you’re not in control of that, if you’re not sort of set up the whole definition of the brand, then you leave it for interpretation. And when you leave it for interpretation, everybody can interpret it in a different way. Right. And it’s not always a positive interpretation. People come – especially into mental health industry – people come with their own preconceived notions, with their own sort of judgment. They they might judge you just on something that they randomly read about you or your picture or anything that that is unintentional. Right. So a brand just helps you become much more intentional about marketing. 

Linzy [00:04:28] I think that’s such a good point because I’ve noticed for myself, even sometimes when I’m looking for a therapist, it’s like you really are, you’re kind of on alert, right? Like you’re really trying to filter and, like, grab all the information you can to figure out if this is the right person for you. And as you say, like if that person hasn’t really set like a strong narrative, if they haven’t really thought through all the pieces they’re putting out there, I think in that vulnerability sometimes clients or I think in my own experience of coming to somebody as a potential client, you know, we really notice the things that might seem a little bit off or we might misinterpret something that’s kind of like vague or unclear because we’re really trying to figure out, is this person the right fit for me? 

Avivit [00:05:06] Right. And I think the fit is more important than anything. The right fit is more important than anything for a client when they’re choosing a therapist. Right. Sometimes the urgency is very high and they’re looking for somebody immediately. But a lot of times it’s like a longer decision making process, so they will compare different therapists, they will compare feedback, but more most importantly, they will compare if this person will understand them. 

Linzy [00:05:35] Right. So they’re looking for those clues that you’re going to understand. Exactly right. 

Avivit [00:05:38] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:05:39] When somebody does do the work to kind of create a- I want to say cohesive brand. I don’t know if that’s language that you would use, but, you know, a brand where they really thought through all of these pieces they put together, what is the benefit to to a therapist for having done that work? 

Avivit [00:05:54] First of all, it’s a vision of where your practice is going to go. Second of all, you will really be able to see how you can stand out from other therapists. And I know the therapists a lot of times don’t like to think about other providers as their competition because there’s a lot of referrals between the therapists. But from a client’s perspective, they are comparing you as a therapist to somebody else in your area or somebody else on Psychology Today. And if you don’t stand out, then this might be a great fit for you that that client that’s looking for your services, but they might just not notice you, right? A brand gives you an opportunity to stand out and also it gives you an opportunity to create a strong marketing message, right? Because a lot of times people don’t really know how to market themselves, how to promote themselves, and they’re sort of saying, well, I’m a therapist, I work with anxiety, I work with depression, I work with, you know, But these are too general of messages for a therapist and private practice. 

Linzy [00:06:59] Right. Right. And so, you know, if somebody is listening and they’re thinking, that’s what my website says. I say I work with depression, I work with anxiety. What is it that kind of moves it more into branding territory that, you know, the kind of work that you do that that makes the difference to help people identify if you’re really for them. 

Avivit [00:07:18] So it’s interesting because you do work with anxiety and depression, but you really work with people in the branding part really identifies helps you identify your ideal clients. Let’s take anxiety as an example. Anxiety for a new mom is very, very different than anxiety for a teenage boy. Right? They’re both anxiety. But if you decide that you work with teenagers and let’s say with teenage boys as an example, and this is your ideal client and well, in the case of teenagers, you need to market to their parents. So you need to talk to the issues that caused the teenager anxiety. And you need to talk to, for example, towards the parents and talk about their pain points. So a brand that really helps you identify the audience that you want to talk to and also present the values that you embody as a therapist. 

Linzy [00:08:19] Right. Right. And when somebody does do this work and they have attracted the right or they’re attracting more of the right people. Right. Like that, that potential therapist who is like looking through five or six profiles and websites ends up choosing them because they really, like, hone their voice and are interacting the right person. What are the impacts in their practice when they have that strong brand? 

Avivit [00:08:40] Well, interestingly enough, there are like four main reasons why private practices fail, according to my research, and I’ve seen first is the lack of preparation, financial preparation, which you probably know a lot about, right? 

Linzy [00:08:52] Yes. 

Avivit [00:08:53] Second is the not being able to provide a good experience for a client, you know. Third is not knowing how to stand out. The fourth is burnout. So we can address burnout by just reducing the amount of work that we’re doing every week. But we can also address burnout by increasing work satisfaction, by working with the right type of client. 

Linzy [00:09:16] Yes. 

Avivit [00:09:17] So a lot of times people burn out because they dread their upcoming sessions, because they’re not enjoying that. Because the- and if you notice, like if there are some sessions that you look forward to that you enjoy that you, you know, and you could do them all day long like, right. If that feeling persists and you, when you’re excited about seeing a client, you can probably burn out much slower then even if you overloaded with the work than if you’re disgruntled and unhappy. 

Linzy [00:09:51] Yeah. Because it’s not just the quantity of the work. It’s the quality of the work. Like if you’re enjoying the work and if it’s giving you spark, then you’re going to be in a much better headspace. An emotional place than- 

Avivit [00:10:02] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:10:02] Yeah dreading like. And it makes me think about times where I’ve had clients in my caseload who are like not a fit or they’re, you know, exhibiting certain behaviors that are just not really in my realm of what I’m good at managing or responding to, or there’s a lot of countertransference from them or countertransference for me, transference from them. Like, you know, where those are, just those more difficult clients. And I’ve noticed for myself that even one client like that in a day can really completely change the experience of the day, like just the impact that working with the wrong people can have can be pretty huge emotionally and energetically. 

Avivit [00:10:34] Of course. Yeah. And it’s not only for therapists, obviously, it’s for all other service businesses as well. But the therapist persona is so important because of this emotional connection that you have with a client, it’s such an intimate space. 

Linzy [00:10:50] So intimate. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, you know, when when therapists have done this work, then what do you notice is the financial impact of creating a good brand, a strong brand? 

Avivit [00:11:03] Well, first of all, they become much more confident and comfortable about their business goals, I would say, like my clients. So they become more confident about their fees. Because there’s all this work that is done that is confirming the value that you bring to that specific audience. Right. So a lot of discomfort and a lot of self-doubt comes because the value is not defined and people pay for value. People pay for the potential outcomes that they can receive. 

Linzy [00:11:39] Right. Right. So when the value is clear to you, like if you’re seeing yourself doing amazing work with the people you love to work with and you’re like literally changing their lives, that’s going to give you more confidence in charging the fee that you determine you need to charge. 

Avivit [00:11:51] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:53] Yeah. That makes so much sense to me. And you know, something I think about and I don’t know if it’s something you talk about your clients too, but just the value of therapy when you do have the right, when you’re working with the right people, you know, and you’re just changing their lives in these profound ways that ripples out into everybody around them. Like when you really connect with that work that you do with like your best people, it is immensely valuable, right? Like, you know, literally changing the way that somebody can, like have relationships or parent their children or experience themselves on a daily basis like that work is so, so valuable. And so it makes me think back to what we were just talking about, of like when you are working with those right people and you’re seeing those results, the value is so obvious. 

Avivit [00:12:34] Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you don’t. A lot of the work that I do with my clients is basically looking at their sessions, is basically recalling what people are saying to them and systematizing those responses. And really showing, okay, all that this means and there’s such overlaps with especially the clients that they enjoy working with. There is such overlap in reaction of those clients to therapy, that’s when you start sort of noticing that when you start seeing that the value comes through, right? 

Linzy [00:13:08] So yeah, absolutely. So I mean marketing and, you know, finances, which is my little, my little corner of the work that there is to be done with therapists, I think has something big in common, and that is that we’re just not taught about it. And I was curious about your thoughts about that, like just the lack of education that we get on these things before we end up in private practice. And we’re like, Oh no, I need to learn everything. What have you noticed about that or what are your thoughts about that lack of education that we get? 

Avivit [00:13:39] I think it’s unfortunate because a lot of therapists go into private practice. So, you know, it’s like I think statistically more than half of graduating psychologists work in private practice. Maybe not necessarily own it, but they work in it. And to expect a person who’s never had any formal education about business and marketing – even very, very basic – to thrive, to create a thriving practice, is not very realistic. You either have to have this natural sensibility towards business or what happens is you rely on the, you know, more seasoned therapists’ experience and they guide you. And it’s not always a positive experience and not always very uplifting or you kind of go through trial and error, right? So you try this, doesn’t work, you try this, doesn’t work, and then you get discouraged and say, fine, whatever. I’m going to go on the insurance panels and just screening, whatever, whoever comes in my door, Right? You probably know that from your. 

Linzy [00:14:39] Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s where the fear defaults us, right, of just like, okay, how can I get clients, and I don’t care who they are, and I don’t care what I get paid, I just need to get clients. And then you end up, and now you’ve like built a business that doesn’t serve you emotionally or financially, depending on, you know, just how desperate you’ve been. And now business is going to seem terrible and hard, like private practice is going to be now a negative experience because you didn’t have that guidance to actually set it up to serve you. And I think what you’re saying about mentorship from older therapists is so true, too, because just because somebody has been around a long time doesn’t mean that they’ve actually figured a certain thing out or it doesn’t mean you actually want their practice or their life. But naturally, we’re going to look to kind of our more established peers when we’re trying to figure out how to do things. 

Avivit [00:15:21] Yeah, that’s right. 

Linzy [00:15:23] And I think another piece of that that we were talking about a little bit off mic before we started recording is when we think about building our prior practices and the financial part of it and like setting a fee and how many people are going to see. We all have very different financial needs, right? So if I think about some of like the older therapists that I looked up to when I was first in private practice and like just felt so green and like I needed to learn everything for everybody. I remember I saw one supervisor who her fee was $100 an hour and I was charging 110 an hour, and I had been in practice for like not even a year, and she’d been in practice for 20 years and was like kind of an expert in my area and like working with kids, EMDR with kids. Like she had written books, she had made products, and I remember feeling so uncomfortable with my fee being higher than hers that I asked her if I could pay her my fee instead. And like that, that was maybe a bit of a boundary overstep on my part, but I was just like it was so uncomfortable to me that I was paying this person for her expertise less than I was getting paid myself. But now that I’m looking at it with a little bit more perspective too, I realize probably she was in a very different financial situation than I was. Maybe, hopefully she wasn’t just stuck at 100, but, you know, she was older. She was like more getting towards retirement. I’m sure she had a a partner who had like an established professional career. So her financial needs were different than mine. But it can be hard sometimes to make those decisions for yourself when the people around you are, you know, setting their own fees for their own reasons, or they’re even modeling to you ideas of like when you deserve to charge a certain fee or what your business should look like. 

Avivit [00:16:51] Sure. And this is, I think, a prevalent, prevalent problem for a lot of therapists. First of all, they’re afraid to raise their fees out of fear. Right. So raising fees is is difficult. But also, when you initially start a private practice, it’s really helpful to go through exercises. You probably teach in your courses how to set up the right fees. So I’ll give you an example. I recently worked with a therapist. She’s in Florida, and she had this very specific niche ans she decided to charge a certain fee. She’s a psychologist and she felt very comfortable about her fee. And then she launched her practice. And after we worked together, she emailed me and she said, Well, I would like to charge this for you, but I noticed that there is a competitor. Sort of, you know, another another psychologist within my area that charges a little bit less. And she has like ten years overall of experience and everything. And this psychologist and we started talking about like, how will clients perceive that? And when we started talking about it, you know, I realized that, you know, it’s not a matter of experience because experience you- it takes time to build experience. So you can’t wait ten years to start charging more. Right. It’s not realistic. It’s more of the matter of awareness about her practice. Brand awareness. Right. So not enough people know. So it’s a it’s it’s a very easy thing to fix. It’s easier to invest in advertising, promoting your practice to the people that you’re trying to reach and charge you a fee than lower your fee and wait until you gain sort of more experience. I mean, in terms of expertise, they were probably pretty compatible, I would say, but more experience and more build a name for yourself more organically. Right? So. Yeah. I would say marketing can help you in reaching that goal to charge the fee that you actually want, that supports your lifestyle, that sustains your business. Right. And therapists, they have huge student loans. 

Linzy [00:19:00] Yeah, we do. Yes. 

Avivit [00:19:01] You know, and it’s not unreasonable. You go through all this, all these years of education that other people haven’t gone through. There’s no shame in charging what you deserve. Right. So it’s really a matter of exposing yourself. 

Linzy [00:19:16] Yeah, Well, and something I was just thinking about as you were talking about, you know, that that therapist you worked with and like, identifying the value of a brand is something that I think that a good brand can also do is you are educating and helping people before they even see you. Right. Like you’re writing your website in such a way or you’re creating content on social media – if that’s part of your branding strategy – that helps them to understand like, oh, all these disparate things that I’m experiencing that seem so awful and random are all like kind of the same problem. Right? And like, it connects to these things. Like I think about how even that you’re giving your potential clients value and your clients value before they even start working with you, because it’s almost like you’re setting the frame in advance before they even sit down with you that first time and just how valuable that is. Because some of those people without that like clarity or that in a way it’s almost like education, depending on, you know, the content you’re producing upfront will actually never get to therapy because they’re never going to think that somebody understands them or they’re never going to realize that all these issues are actually kind of the same issue or that they’re normal or common. I’m just thinking about the value to people of that branding content upfront before they even meet you. 

Avivit [00:20:25] Yeah, it’s very important. It’s funny that you should say that. You should mention people that might never go to therapy because they would feel that they would be understood. There is a book that I read recently about this very successful entrepreneur, I think it’s called How to Get Rich and Die Trying. And so basically it’s his journey. He was very young and he became a successful entrepreneur and CEO and how it really screwed up his mental health. And at the end of the book, he says, the problem- I never reached out to a therapist because I was in such a unique position that I never thought that I would be understood. There is nobody would ever understand my situation. Obviously, he’s not the only person that has ever become a successful entrepreneur, probably there are therapists that could specialize or do specialize, absolutely, in working with a successful, successful entrepreneur CEOs and more successful people in general, financially, that are experiencing the type of pressures and have anxiety and depression because of those pressures that other people do not. Right. So yeah, if you position yourself as your brand, as an expert in those issues, yes, you can attract those people because you will speak to them directly to their pain. 

Linzy [00:21:47] Yeah, precisely. And I have seen actually a bit of a rise in that in more recent years. And and maybe it’s not new. Maybe I’m just noticing it. But people who do more like executive coaching, like they kind of like frame it around those kinds of folks. And I remember once thinking for myself, Oh, do I need an executive coach? And then I looked and it was like $400 an hour. And I thought, No, that’s not for me. We’re talking like, that’s for surgeons, pilots, you know, successful politicians. But yeah, that is a niche too, right. Like there’s so many niches that I’m thinking, you know, if the man who had bought that book, if he had happened upon somebody who actually was naming his pain points and talking about how you think nobody understands you, you’ve had these massive successes and yet da da da da da. How much more likely he would be to actually try therapy and not suffer immensely because somebody could actually identify that they do understand what he’s going through and they could help him. 

Avivit [00:22:32] Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the demand right now for therapy is so high. You know, we all know that. And there’s no reason for a therapist to fail in private practice. From my perspective, if they’re really like a set to succeed and have all the skills and the knowledge that they need, right, there is no reason for that to happen. And there is no reason to not try to attract only your ideal clients, only the kind that you enjoy working with because there is enough of them you just need to know where they are. 

Linzy [00:23:07] All right. Yes. So something that we were chatting about a little bit too, before we started recording, that is a- I think a shared passion point of ours from different angles- is the importance of thinking big. And I was wondering if you could speak a bit to that. In all we’re talking about here, the value of therapists thinking big about what they’re doing. 

Avivit [00:23:26] Right. And I think that’s what’s a little bit lacking. And I’m trying to sort of address this issue, but I created a weekly newsletter that talks about mental health industry, business trends, and ties it all into marketing to just show therapists the opportunities, business opportunities out there, possible threats. And these all saying all of this, you know, skill of thinking big is being taught in business school. I would go through an exercise that’s called a SWOT analysis and strengths, weaknesses, threats and opportunities, and that opens your mind to what is possible for you. Besides, you know, I have to get this amount of clients to my practice. You know, it also shows the, you know, possibilities. When the pandemic just hit, I remember I thought, oh, my God, therapists are going to be so overworked, long before that’s happened right away. Like within months, right, when people started seeing, you know, and it’s just a matter of recognizing those people understand that people who saw that were able to prepare themselves better. If it was working, preparing their telehealth services better, having certain fees and stuff like that, people who did not prepare themselves well were overwhelmed, overworked, and, you know. 

Linzy [00:24:49] Yeah, and I love that. Zoom out to think about the work we’re doing in terms of an industry, because I think something about private practice is that it can be so isolating. You know, it’s like your own- you’re in your own little room or like you’re on your own little zoom screen, depending on how you work. And it can feel so insular, right? Like we’re just having these little intimate conversations, like they’re a little I don’t mean to belittle them, but like these, like bite-size, like an hour at a time, we’re having these, like, dephthful conversations with people. And then at the end of the day, we kind of like close down the computer. And if you kind of feel like you’re the only one in the world doing this work. Of course that’s not true. But there is something very isolating and insular, especially when you’re in solo practice, about the work that we do. And and even what you’re saying. I think it’s just a great reminder that, like we are part of an industry, we don’t think about our industry the same way that like, I don’t know, the aviation industry thinks about what they do, but we are part of like larger trends and you can actually be looking at and thinking about those larger trends and larger things that are happening in the world and how those impact like therapy, not just your own relationship with your 30 clients on your caseload. 

Avivit [00:25:49] Yeah, absolutely. And there are trends that are happening in the tech industry that are related to mental health with a lot of, you know, suspicion about that in the mental health community, obviously. But those trends are not going anywhere. So we can figure out how to live with them and how to operate our businesses within them. Right. And so it’s important to see that. It’s important to realize where how you fit into the bigger to the bigger picture. 

Linzy [00:26:19] Yes, I love that. I love that. And I’m thinking, too, about how that bigger picture connects to the bigger picture that I love, which is zooming out on your practice finances and actually understanding what’s happening in your business from like a one-month, three months, six-month, 12-month perspective. Because I think we can also get really in the weeds of like what happened this week or what happened today is telling me what’s happening in my practice. And really, the real information is bigger than that. But I’m thinking about how also this marketing piece that you’re talking about, this branding, hooks into that because if you zoom out on your practice and you realize like, Oh, I’m not where I want to be, these aren’t the numbers I want to be seeing, I’m not getting paid enough. Then your marketing and branding is often going to be like a key component of being able to change that. 

Avivit [00:27:00] Yes, exactly. And really, it’s an investment in your business. I look at it as a similar investment as you have invested in your education, I mean, unfortunately, the education that is built like that in such a way that it doesn’t offer those skills throughout, as we talked about it, Right. But it doesn’t mean that you don’t need them. You do need them. You know, it’s like a continuing education kind of piece to it. 

Linzy [00:27:27] Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about this today. I’m wondering if folks want to find you and follow you. Where is the best place for them to do that? 

Avivit [00:27:37] Sure. So I used two social media platforms. I’m on Instagram. You can find me there. I post a lot of bite-size marketing education posts. So you can learn about marketing a lot just by following me. And I’m also on LinkedIn when I have more kind of in-depth conversations about the industry and about business in general. And you can find me on my website. It’s reddstrategy.com. Red with two D’s, and you can also subscribe to my newsletter. It’s free and it comes out weekly and it gives you a lot of information about the mental health industry, the business trends, and also a lot of marketing advice. 

Linzy [00:28:21] So it sounds like a great big picture snapshot that you’re sending out every week of what’s happening kind of beyond us looking at the industry. 

Avivit [00:28:29] Yeah, and it’s also fun to read. 

Linzy [00:28:31] Yeah. Nice. Great. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Avivit [00:28:35] Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. 

Linzy [00:28:51] In my conversation with Avivit, something that occurred to me, which, you know, when you have an aha, it’s like something, you know, but it clicks in at a deeper level is, you know, in marketing or what we’re doing is we’re just putting across the work that we’re already doing with people. So she talked about that example of going through your client’s notes, thinking of the things that what are the things that your client say to you again and again and you are already doing this work with your clients, or if you’re just starting a private practice, you already know the clients that you love to work with. You know, in your previous setting or your passion topic. And part of branding is just pulling those things together and putting them out there front and center for those other ideal clients to find you and read your website and think, Oh my gosh, they’re inside my head. I need to work with this person. So really it’s just putting together the amazing work that you’re already doing and putting it out there in a way that potential clients can understand. And I loved Avivit’s point as well about how attracting the right people is going to be a protector against burnout because you’re working with the people you love. I think we all know what it feels like to work with somebody who’s not a fit, where you don’t feel effective, where they’re just not somebody that you’re vibing with. You don’t really seem to get each other. It doesn’t feel good. And that can really undermine our confidence. And if you’re struggling with your fear, that can also make you question, you know, the value of the work that you’re doing. Whereas stacking your caseload with people who are your ideal client, who you love to serve, who sessions feel like magic is really, really, really going to create a different experience of yourself. And it is so valuable to do that. I believe it has shared a promotion. So if you were enjoying what you were learning from her today she has a marketing foundation workshop and listeners of this podcast episode can get 50% off that workshop by using code Linzy50. So if you’re curious about what Avivit has to teach, if you want to get a taste of what it’s like to work with her, check out that workshop on her website Marketing Foundation Workshop and you can use the code. Linzy50 to save 50%. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can also check us out on Instagram. We share free money, mindset, emotional, practical content on there all the time. You can follow us at @moneynutsandbolts and if you’re enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people to find us and help those other therapists who want to be part of these conversations to be able to find the podcast and benefit from all the things we’re talking about here. Thanks for listening today. 

Arianna [00:00:05] I really see copyrighting and your copy for your business as truly an untapped tool for financial freedom. I see it as an investment in various different ways. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello everyone, this is Linzy. Quick little addendum I’m going to put at the front of this episode. In the intro to this episode, I said We’re in season four of the podcast, but we’re actually in season five, which I think is a sign of having a good time, when you don’t realize that you’ve actually put out 48 podcast episodes already. So this is the start of season five. I’m so glad you’re here. I hope you enjoy today’s episode. Hello and welcome back to season four of the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. It’s nice to have these little breaks between seasons as a more sensitive person who gets sleepy. It’s nice to give myself the space and permission to just not do it for a bit and be able to focus on other things and just breathe. But it’s also really exciting to be starting a new season and knowing that now I have an excuse to talk to awesome people, 12 awesome people, and the next while to share these episodes with you. Before we get into today’s episode, I did want to share a review from Apple podcast. As you know, your reviews mean so much to me, and this review is from Heather’s Joy. They write, Each episode manages to be exactly what I need. Linzy has such a wonderful mix of lived experience and practical solution-focused tips. She doesn’t shy away from the money topics that most of us have never been given the opportunity to explore. Best of all, she’s kind and welcoming, so that embarrassment from lack of knowledge about finances or shame from family of origin and cultural influences are addressed and released while I listen. That’s a lot to get out of a podcast. I can’t wait to take her course. Thank you so much, Heather’s Joy for that review. And if you are enjoying the podcast, do jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It means a lot to hear from you and it also helps other folks find the podcast. So today’s episode, our first episode of Season four, is with Arianna Smith. Arianna Smith is a therapist, she’s a copywriter, and she’s the creator of Courageous Copywriting for Clinicians. She’s all about helping therapists and helpers write words that sound like them to attract their dream clients. I so enjoyed this conversation with Ari today, and I think you’re also going to enjoy it and get a lot out of it. We started by exploring the parallels between our relationship with money and our relationship with copy, how so many of the blocks that we have in one area also block us in the other area as well. We got into how to channel your voice and make copy sound like you, how important it is to do that, but also how copywriting is an untapped tool for financial freedom and success and comfort, how actually working on your copywriting can lead to financial stability and having your needs met. It was a really illuminating conversation. We got a little bit into my blocks around copywriting too, and Ari had some really helpful insights around that. Here is my conversation with Arianna Smith. So Arianna, welcome to the podcast. 

Arianna [00:03:49] Thank you. It’s so great to be here. 

Linzy [00:03:51] I am excited to have you here. And you know, you and I feel like occupy different spaces in terms of helping therapists. I’m all about numbers, spreadsheets, money, also feelings. You live in like copy and writing. And so I want to explore today kind of the overlap between these things because like, it’s not something that I naturally think overlaps, but I know that you see lots of connections there. 

Arianna [00:04:15] Yes. Yeah, I do, I do. There is a lot of overlap between copy and money as far as how therapists might approach it, how they might feel about it, and also like how avoiding copy hurts therapists financially too. 

Linzy [00:04:33] So yeah. Yes. Okay. Okay, so let’s get into it. 

Arianna [00:04:36] So yeah, we’re going to just go in. 

Linzy [00:04:38] Dive in. So I’m curious, from your perspective, when folks are having like money mindset struggles, like when money is hard, how can that also impact their relationship with copy and writing in their practice? 

Arianna [00:04:53] Well, and I think maybe also to contextualize where I’m coming from, I am a therapist in private practice, so I am dealing with the day to day aspects of seeing clients, having a budget, working with an accountant. But I’m also a copywriter and a copy coach for therapists as well. So I’m also on this- inhabiting this other sphere of looking at the bigger picture around someone’s business and the words of their business. And I sometimes talk about copy as being the storefront of your business. And so when I kind of lean into the similar mindset issues that folks might have between money and copy- and you can lean around the money stuff because that’s your expert here. But I often find that therapists take kind of two different approaches to copy either complete avoidance or perfectionism.  

Linzy [00:05:43] Yes, That’s familiar. Yes. 

Arianna [00:05:45] Yeah. So a lot of therapists I see just kind of- and no shame around this. This is a shame-free observation. But a lot of therapists might just kind of put copy on the very, very end of their list and just kind of put their head in the sand and not see that how avoiding that is hurting their business. Much like money, right? Like, oh, there’s money coming in and out, like I can pay my bills and oh, there’s words up on my website. Clients are calling me, like things are okay. I also hear – and you tell me if you hear this with your folks too – I hear this as a as a copy coach. A lot of therapists are like, well, I’m just bad at copywriting. You know, without even actually examining that mindset, which if that’s actually accurate, if they’re actually bad at copywriting. And I’m biased because I think all therapists are good copywriters. And then there’s that other end of the spectrum, which is the perfectionism and overthinking, where there’s this hyper fixation on the copy, so much so that it never gets published. Or there’s constant editing, so you can never actually test it out because you’re changing your headline all the time. And often that perfectionism can lead to feeling frozen and not doing anything. So it’s like there’s this two- they’re kind of like two sides of the same coin. Do you see this for your clients? 

Linzy [00:07:04] 100%. And like over time, what I have discerned is that they’re both anxiety, right? They’re both just like different ways of coping when something feels overwhelming or too much or when we have these beliefs, like I can’t handle this, this isn’t who I am, I’m not a copywriter, I’m not a money person. Right? Those are two ways of coping with that stress. Like, one is just like, don’t touch it, pretend it doesn’t exist. Like you wrote your website ten years ago. It’s probably fine. Don’t look at it. What if it’s not fine? And then the other one is like that perfectionism. And I know for me with money, like what I say and I just said this on a call an hour ago with my students, it’s like perfectionism doesn’t get you anywhere with money. Like it’s just not helpful. Right? And even if something is perfect with money, like getting something like that last 5% is so insignificant in terms of like the taxes you’re going to get back or like nobody’s going to give you a gold star because your your books are 100% accurate. Like that just doesn’t exist. And I think it’s the same with copy, right, it’s like if you don’t actually get to the point of doing it or putting it out there because you’re so paralyzed. Perfection, you know- perfect is the enemy of done, right. It just like it stops you from actually doing the actions that are going to make a difference. 

Arianna [00:08:14] Well, and what I often say, one of my little soundbites is, it doesn’t have to be perfect. It just has to be you. 

Linzy [00:08:21] Yeah. 

Arianna [00:08:22] And so how can therapists- how can we change the metric that we measure our copy with? Because if you wanted to be perfect, I mean, then it’s probably going to be have done by a robot, Right. Which Yes. Side note that is where one place that copywriting is going is AI. 

Linzy [00:08:40] I am in that space a lot these days. Yes. Yes it. 

Arianna [00:08:43] Which I think that copywriting still needs- and like there’s two different schools around that. But like most professional copywriters are like, people need to write. Yeah. And so it’s like, yeah, I love what you’re saying around, like at the root of it is anxiety. And I think sometimes at the root of it for therapists around copy is like, Am I good enough to do this? 

Linzy [00:09:04] Yes. 

Arianna [00:09:04] Right. Am I enough to do this? 

Linzy [00:09:06] Well, and that immediately comes to mind for me, like as we’re talking about this is there’s also this piece I think about like showing up. Right? And like just showing up, right, and like showing up and doing therapy and saying, I’m actually really good at this. And even if I don’t do a perfect session, my skills command $200 an hour, or my skills command, 150 or whatever, you know, whatever you’ve settled on is the number that you need to be well. Just owning that and showing up and owning your skills and the value of your work. Right. And I imagine that there’s a parallel with copy, where it’s just like, just show up and be seen and let people see you. And it’s not perfect, but you’re not perfect, right? And like, you’re going to call in your people who like love you for imperfection. And just like with your sessions as a therapist, it’s like you might have a session where you’re a little bit off because, you know, I’m thinking of example for my kind of life, like because you’re a mom and your kid didn’t sleep and you mention it to your client at the end of like, yeah, I couldn’t sleep. And they’re like, oh, she’s tired. Like, I get tired. And like, you actually being imperfect can be a point of connection with your clients, just like being who you are. Does that make sense, that connection? 

Arianna [00:10:07] Well, yeah. And I think also what’s popping up for me around this and I knew there was overlaps around money and copy and like more and more is coming up. And the other thing that’s coming up for me related to this is there’s a lot of conditioning that therapists have gotten systemically professionally around money, who you should serve, what you should charge, and then on the copy side of things, it’s like how you show up, right? You’re supposed to be a blank, blank slate. No self-disclosure. Don’t be unprofessional. Right. And definitely don’t drop an F-bomb on your website. Right. You and I were just talking about that. 

Linzy [00:10:48] We were. I’ve dropped many, many, many F-bombs in therapy, like I do on this podcast, like I do when I’m coaching, because that’s also part of who I am. Right? And I’ve even had folks say to me, I remember once I got a midterm course evaluation and it was like, The course is good, but I could do without the swearing. And I was like, I can’t do without the swearing, so. And I mentioned it to a couple of students who are like really engaged and like my people. And they were like, No, we love the swearing, but it’s like, you know, you’re again, you’re you’re an imperfect, specific human and you call in your people when you are yourself and you show up as yourself. 

Arianna [00:11:17] Well, and what I say to, you know, my coaches, my copy coaches is like, you know, there is this question of should I use profanity in my copy? and I, I have two schools of it. One is say whatever the fuck you want, right? It’s your business, it’s your private practice. If you cuss in sessions, then you want to accurately represent yourself in your copy because wouldn’t that be so disturbing if you were a client to go to see this website of the therapist and then you go into the session and they’re just fuckity fuck fuck. 

Linzy [00:11:49] Swear like a trucker. 

Arianna [00:11:49] Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:51] That would be incongruent, right? 

Arianna [00:11:53] And it would be, right, and then I have- and then my strategic brain is almost taking the power away from profanity and just seeing it as any other word, just seeing it as any other word that you could use strategically in your writing. 

Linzy [00:12:09] Yes, yes. And I will say to you, like I think this is maybe an aside, but with swearing, I didn’t just swear all the time with clients. It’s like you match their energy, right? Like it’s appropriate. You’re like, you know, you’re going to read the room. There’s a nuance to it. So I probably actually wouldn’t put swear on my website if I think about it, because there are definitely clients who I never swore with because I could just tell that wasn’t how they communicated right. But if somebody swears at me, I’m gonna swear with them, I’m jumping in there. 

Arianna [00:12:31] Oh, my gosh. 

Linzy [00:12:32] To, like, express ourselves. 

Arianna [00:12:33] Well, okay. You just opened the door to a copywriting lesson. 

Linzy [00:12:39] Did I? 

Arianna [00:12:40] You Did. You’re like, that was totally planned. But I think sometimes when it comes to copywriting, like we- and this goes back to the, like the belief of like I’m bad at copy, I’m not good at copywriting. And I think therapists have- are uniquely set up to be really good copywriters, right? And for one of the reasons that you just shared is like, we’re really good at listening and feeling the energy of our client and matching them where they’re at. And that’s like a number one thing to do in copywriting is using the language that your ideal clients use. And matching what the language that they’re using, in a way. And I also think another reason that therapists are good at copywriting is like, we know how to make a point, right? When you think about copywriting is just conversational words that the job is to help guide them towards working with you if you’re the right fit. It’s just about connection. Just about empathy, it’s just about mirroring where your client’s at in their journey. And like, I don’t know about you, but I just described being a therapist. 

Linzy [00:13:56] Yes. Yeah, It’s like that’s already what folks are doing. But, you know, I’m hearing for some folks there is this like story or narrative, though, that, like, they can’t do the copywriting. It’s like – from what I’m hearing – by being good listeners and being able to match our client’s language and like read the room and- already we’re most of our way to being copywriters. 

Arianna [00:14:13] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:14:14] But there’s definitely like folks do have like sometimes this barrier around the story, like, I’m not good at that. I can’t do that. Therefore, I avoid that. So it might be easier than folks think, is what you’re saying. 

Arianna [00:14:25] I think the biggest barrier is the mindset stuff around copywriting, because once you get through that, then it’s just learning a different skill set. Yeah, you know, which I suspect is similar with money, right? When people are like, okay, I’m ready to face this. I’m ready to look at money. And then that’s where you come in and you teach them the skills. I mean literal skills. And then it’s not so scary anymore. 

Linzy [00:14:49] Yeah. And I think part of it, too, you know, and I do wonder if this is the process with copy, because I would say I have a huge block around writing and copy. Huge block. Maegan, who you know, you do coaching with Maegan Megginson, and she’s one of my good friends, consistently is telling me to like write more and trying to like help me think about how do I like, get past this block. Because I think similarly, with copy and with money, there can be these huge emotional blocks, these stories, maybe like bad experiences, like, you know, there can be like kind of adjacent trauma related to them. That makes it really hard to hone the skill because you’re so mired in the like, stories and the emotions, and whatever obstacles are in the way for you that it’s like the skills are actually very learnable. But the way that I think about it is like your learning brain is not available when all of that other stuff is happening. Like your thinking brain is not online when you’re overwhelmed. 

Arianna [00:15:37] Yeah. And I wonder if there’s like a way to- well, I know part of me is like, what are your blocks? Let’s hear. 

Linzy [00:15:49] So I think for me, like blocks around copywriting, there’s a few things. One definitely is a belief that, like, folks don’t really care or want to hear from me. Right. So that’s number one. Which is a very, like, powerful story. Right? Obviously. So I’m just kind of like, well, people don’t really want to know about my story about X, Y, Z, or whatever. Like, I see myself really, I think, as like a teacher and a doer and a lot of like copywriting in terms of, you know, like email newsletters and stuff like you’re supposed to kind of like share of yourself. And I’m like, Nobody cares. And I’m extremely boring. I’m a 38 year old woman with like a toddler who goes to bed early. That is definitely one piece for me. And then another piece I think is, I was a writer when I was younger. I actually wrote poetry as a child and a teenager and into my twenties. And I had I actually had an English teacher who was like the sweetest man who, like when I put together a poetry book, like a compilation of poetry for, you know, my like grade 13 writing class, he was like, When you are a published poet, this is what we call your juvenilia. This is your early work that you do. And like, so kind. He reached out to me like last year over email. He actually found me and was like, I see you’re a social worker. That’s amazing. I found your poetry book in my house because I’m moving so very, you know, like all of this kind of like, support. But I think that when I went through my twenties and I became an activist and I kind of got into those, like, activist circles, I like, disavowed these things. Like, I kind of like put those things aside. This was like kind of self-indulgent or not productive and like, really focused on like social justice and making things happen and like feminism in these, like, very specific ways that was like, that’s self-indulgent. We need to, like, work on things like, I need to like, solve poverty, personally. And that’s kind of like I’ve almost disowned that part of myself. I’d say those are my two. 

Arianna [00:17:37] Like the young creative part of you? 

Linzy [00:17:39] Yes, Yes. 

Arianna [00:17:40] Yeah, Yeah. So of course, copywriting is hard.  

Linzy [00:17:44] It is. It is. 

Arianna [00:17:45] Yeah. Well, okay, so I hear for you as there’s one around, like this tender, sensitive, creative, young part of you that doesn’t almost feel safe to be seen yet. And that’s the only way you know how to show up and write with your most tender-hearted self. 

Linzy [00:18:05] Totally, yes. 

Arianna [00:18:06] And then, at the same time, there’s this feeling of like, well, nobody cares anyway, right? 

Linzy [00:18:13] Also that. Yes. Like, which by the way, to be clear, Ari, I have much evidence to the contrary for this. Like I once I actually got I got the sweetest email once from a woman named Angel who I don’t know if she listens to the podcast, but she wrote to me. She had seen me at some she had seen me at one of Maegan’s workshops, and she was like, I saw you. And it reminded me that I’ve been meaning to tell you. She said, Your- this email that you wrote about, like grief and growth, you know, in the spring, has been the background on my phone for like four months. So she had like, screenshot it. Like a paragraph of this email that I wrote from a place of grief because I built this tiny house in the backyard, this beautiful raspberry patch I had got destroyed. I was like, surprisingly kind of upset about it. Like it brought up a lot of grief. And so I was talking about how where there’s, you know, where there’s growth, there’s grief. And she told me, like in this email, she’s shown it to her therapist multiple times. She’s shown it to her best friend. She reads it all the time. And it’s like, so there’s evidence that people do care and connect. But of course, it’s hard to get that in past the negative beliefs. 

Arianna [00:19:19] I mean, we therapists are so good at discounting the impact that we make on people’s lives, right? Like, so good. And we often don’t see it, right. So I guess I want to speak to what you shared because I think, you know, and not that I’m going to solve all your copywriting problems. 

Linzy [00:19:39] No, and that’s not what we’re here for. 

Arianna [00:19:40] But I almost wonder, when the whole like, nobody cares feeling. I almost, wonder, can we leverage that to your advantage? You know, because it’s true. No one cares, right? Only half the people are going to read. I don’t know what your email stats are. 

Linzy [00:19:55] Pretty good email stats. Try, like 25% sometimes 40. We got a 40% open rate sometimes. Yeah. 

Arianna [00:20:03] Yeah, but I think I’m just like that is actually something that I- when I am sending emails to my list, which feel incredibly vulnerable even years later. I’m just like, nobody cares. And I, you know, like no one cares. And those that care will read it like, they’re going on their day. But speaking to like, I was also like a little sensitive, tender-hearted mermaid child of the forest that- 

Linzy [00:20:26] I was a tiny poet. Nine year old poet. Yeah. 

Arianna [00:20:29] Oh, my gosh. All my stories I used to- I have a twin sister and I was on the top bunk. She was on the bottom bunk. She’d like asked me to tell her stories to help her fall asleep, you know? And so then I naturally couldn’t hear when she fell asleep. And so then I would just keep telling the story until I was like, Sister, are you listening? And then I’d be like, Oh, okay. But and then I always thought as the teenager, I was like, Someday someone’s going to find my journals and publish a memoir. I mean, you know, right, did you think that too? 

Linzy [00:21:01] Yeah. 

Arianna [00:21:01] But I- really when it comes to copywriting, I really separate out my little tender creative self from copywriting, right? And I find though, that if I nurture that part of me, if I give it attention, then it gives me great energy for my copywriting work. But I’m really mindful to, like, not bring- like, to protect that little, like, tender sensitive- 

Linzy [00:21:27] Yes. Like she should not be writing your emails. 

Arianna [00:21:29] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:21:30] Cuz sometimes people are mean. That is true. Like, sometimes people do write back and they’re like, Yeah, unsubscribe me. And I’m like, There’s a button, bro. So not everybody’s going to be kind to your little tender part. 

Arianna [00:21:39] No, no. And so but I also have- speaking of perfectionism, I need to get this out there. I have a blog post that I’ve yet to publish that’s like what to do with the haters. Because as you start to be more visible, you are going to get haters. You are going to get people that don’t like what you’re doing, and that gets to be a measure of your visibility and stuff. And so I think. 

Linzy [00:22:01] Like you’re successful when you have trolls. 

Arianna [00:22:06] Yes. 

Linzy [00:22:08] I remind myself about that. Yes. 

Arianna [00:22:09] It’s so true. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:22:11] That is a helpful, helpful guidance. And I think, you know, to bring it back to to money, it’s the same thing with money, right? It’s like there’s a part of you that might have experienced poverty or like financial abuse. Right. Or like was told when you were eight that you’re dumb and you’ll never do math. And like that part of you, as you say, needs to be cared for and nurtured, but also shouldn’t be the part of you that’s doing your finances. Like that part doesn’t need to do the finances. That part, you know, can be cared for. And then your like, adult functioning brain can be available to like, do the finances and learn QuickBooks or whatever you decide to do. So really, like it’s a both-and, right, like taking care of those feelings and also bringing your cognitive- your adult brain online to do these other tasks. 

Arianna [00:22:55] And how can that creative part of you be nourished and help you? I find that that part of me is so helpful at, for example, like seeing connections that I wouldn’t normally see or I have that part pay attention to silly stories, you know, that I could share in my email. Like it’s almost like you get to protect that part and it doesn’t have to be the one that writes your emails or writes your home page. And I think also like circling back to the Nobody Cares. A big question we have to ask when we are writing our copy is, will my client care about this? Right? Because ultimately your copy is about your ideal client. So when I think of this whole like nobody cares, well, it’s like, okay, let’s lower the bar, the perfectionism. But then I also think like, well, who do I want to care about this? 

Linzy [00:23:45] Yes, Who are you talking to? Yeah. 

Arianna [00:23:47] Who am I talking to? Yeah. 

Linzy [00:23:49] So with this, once folks step into like, okay, I am going to, like, take on copywriting. Tell me, like, how does copy actually connect to financial success? Like, where? How can it actually help us with money? 

Arianna [00:24:02] Yeah, I really see copywriting in your copy for your business as truly an untapped tool for financial freedom. I see it as an investment that- in various different ways. One of the ways is that kind of like with money when you bury your head. Like when you avoid it, you think that it’s not causing any harm. But when you are avoiding your copy, you are potentially not attracting ideal clients that do want to give money to your business. Give money to you. Right. And also, that takes up a ton of energy. Like avoiding something is very- takes a lot of energy too. 

Linzy [00:24:45] Takes bandwidth for sure. 

Arianna [00:24:45] And then chances are, I really think that, you know, when you attract ideal clients, you do better clinical work, which is far more enjoyable to you. And happy clients tell more clients. So when you think about it at all, when you think about the shoot, it all starts with the storefront of your business. Who’s walking in your door and are they the right person to walk into your door? So that’s how I see that. When you focus it on the other side of this, when you focus on your copy and you let go of that perfectionism and you do that clarity work of like, who is my ideal client? How can I speak to them in their words? You don’t have to keep tweaking it. You can put it out there. You can write it once and you can watch it work, and then it gets to be like, it’s kind of like when you hire a new employee, you know, you got to put a lot of investment into it in the beginning, but if you train them well, they’ll like go on their own and do their thing. And so that’s where I feel like the financial freedom comes from really well-honed copy is that if you put that upfront energy, then it’s going to continue to bring people in through your door without you even having to think about it. 

Linzy [00:25:55] Yeah. And as you say, it’s like bringing the right people means you can do better work. Better work is going to give you more confidence to charge the fee that you really need or want. And then it’s like you are maybe seeing the same amount of clients, but you’re doing work you feel incredible about. Your clients are thrilled. They’re telling their friends and you’re commanding a fee that you really feel good about because you have no doubt in your mind that like you are in your niche and you’re like in your zone of genius as a clinician. And that’s interesting to me because like something that, you know, if we think about the reverse of that for a minute and I’m thinking about one of my students in Money Boss who’s like a super lovely clinician in Hawaii, and she’s looking to switch to private pay, but she has a website that’s based on attracting people for insurance. So she has a website that’s kind of trying to catch everybody. Right. Like it’s old copy from years ago. She’s avoiding looking at it. And so it’s just kind of catching everybody. So she’s working with a whole range of folks, some who are kind of the work she likes to do, some who aren’t. And so something that she realized is, like, in order to actually be able to go private pay, she was going to have to hone on that niche and actually attract people in her niche. Right. Because the truth is, like folks who – where you’re not in your zone of genius and it’s not a great fit – might not be so keen to pay your premium fees. Right. If they’re kind of like meh, the work’s, like, okay, like it helps a little. But I could also talk to my mom. They’re not going to be excited to pay $300 an hour. But people who are like, Oh my God, she just like gets it. And I just got more done with her in one hour than I’ve done with like six months of trying to work on this myself. Are going to be thrilled to pay you whatever your fee is, because you’re changing their life. 

Arianna [00:27:26] And that also results in some income stability, too. 

Linzy [00:27:30] Yes. 

Arianna [00:27:30] Because invested clients is, you know, results that come consistently. 

Linzy [00:27:36] Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. 

Arianna [00:27:38] You know, it’s very hard when you have clients come inconsistently because then you’re like, do I hold that spot for them? Oh, my gosh. They canceled like two days before. I’m not going to fill that. Right. And this goes back to who’s the storefront? The copy? Like, who’s coming in the door, right. Are they actually coming in to sit down and, like, stay for a while? 

Linzy [00:28:01] Yes. 

Arianna [00:28:01] Or are they just browsing? Right. Do you have what they need? Like does your store have what they need? And I think it’s so funny. I want to speak to what you said earlier around our spheres, because you talked about data and spreadsheets. And I actually think there’s a lot more data in copywriting. 

Linzy [00:28:20] Oh, for sure. 

Arianna [00:28:20] Give it credit, too. And so when I- when you were talking about this coaching client of yours who’s shifting from insurance to private pay, I almost would advise them to look at- get a what’s called voice of customer data. 

Linzy [00:28:34] Mm hmm. Yes. 

Arianna [00:28:35] Which is- because sometimes I think therapists, we’re like, we got to guess what we’re going to write. And one of my first rules of like compelling copy is like, don’t guess. Research. Your clients have already told you what they want to hear. 

Linzy [00:28:50] Yes. Yes. 

Arianna [00:28:51] And so, you know, with this person you mentioned, with anyone who’s shifting from insurance to private pay or even just wants to shift to an ideal client. Go back to your data, go back to your consult calls, go back to your notes, go back to just your memory and get that data around, what are they saying? What is the problem? You know, and this goes back to copy as a tool, like an untapped tool for financial freedom. There is someone out there that wants to pay money for a problem that you’re going to solve. Right? But if you’re not putting it on the store front of like, hey, I solve this problem. They’re going to take their financial resources elsewhere. 

Linzy [00:29:30] Totally. Yes. And I think about my own clinical notes from when I was practicing. And like, I love words and I’m quite wordy. I would always take such long notes, like, I would take a whole page of notes for every client in my tiny little handwriting. And then when I would type them up, I would often write quotes because I couldn’t let go of a good phrase, right? It’s like somebody says something and you’re like, Oh my God, what a like a concise, beautiful encapsulation of something. And so if I think about it now, if I was going to be recreating my therapy website and launching again, I would have like gold to mine from my notes because I have like specific quotes of exactly how people are talking about, you know, how they were experiencing trauma or dissociation or, you know, complex trauma that I could just mine and create copy that somebody would read and be like, She’s speaking to my soul. That is exactly me. 

Arianna [00:30:15] Well, and I also just like, think therapists, like, we love to overcomplicate things, too. 

Linzy [00:30:20] Yes, we do. 

Arianna [00:30:21] We love to overcomplicate, like, maybe money, copy, if you were to do your website again, yeah, there might be like I think sometimes for therapists, for like, it can’t be that easy. 

Linzy [00:30:31] Yes, we make it hard. 

Arianna [00:30:32] Like I can just put words that my client said up on my website? 

Linzy [00:30:35] Yes, that’s like cheating. That’s too easy. Yeah, totally. 

Arianna [00:30:39] But you can. Like it is that simple. I mean, there is strategy to it, right? Like there is thought, like you can’t just put- you just can’t literally put that. But I mean, case in point, I was you know, Linzy, you and I were talking earlier about like the people that help us in our business and I’m like, I think I need to add someone to my team. And I went to this website that for VA’s and it said, “drowning in the details”, and I literally said that this morning. I literally texted my friend. I said, I feel like I’m drowning in the details of my business. And so I was like, I have to call them. I have to set up a consult. They’re inside my brain, right? 

Linzy [00:31:14] Yes. They stole thoughts from your brain and put it on their website. 

Arianna [00:31:17] Actually, their headline there above the fold said, Overwhelmed period, drowning in details, period. They did literally put clients words and I’m scheduling a consult with that. Of course you can make it that simple, right? 

Linzy [00:31:31] Yeah, totally. Yes. And I think that bears repeating like it does not have to be hard. Therapists are excellent listeners and we have to take notes. So if you have notes or even if you just start paying attention for the next week, your clients are going to tell you how they experience their problem, how they want to feel like it’s all going to be there. You just need to sift it and extract it well. 

Arianna [00:31:53] And when I teach more in-depth around gathering voice of customer data, which we could do a whole freaking podcast, I’m not sure if one of the things that’s highlighted when- because I share some questions that you can ask to gather data and it is the same things that you ask in session, like one of the best things that you can ask for your clients and for your copy is, Okay, so you tell me you have anxiety. What does that look like? 

Linzy [00:32:18] Yes. 

Arianna [00:32:19] What does that look like? And that gives you such rich clinical information. It helps you understand what’s happening there. From a copywriting perspective, it’s like, Oh, well, that tells me how I could represent visually what that problem is happening for. 

Linzy [00:32:35] Yes, it’s like that thing of like, don’t tell them. Show them. 

Arianna [00:32:38] Exactly. Yes. Yeah, show. Don’t tell. 

Linzy [00:32:40] Yeah, exactly. So it’s like you don’t want to say, although overwhelmed is a good one that does catch people. But like, you don’t want to just say like, Anxious? You say like, Do you feel an empty feeling in the pit of your stomach? Like, get like, get into that. And like, people are going to be like, oh, yeah, no. Because many people also don’t know that they feel anxious, right? Like sometimes, too, what we are doing in our business is psychoeducation to help people understand, You’re feeling, all of these things. And it’s actually anxiety, right? In my case, it’s like, yes, you have all these things going on and it’s actually a lack of financial skills, which people don’t know. They just know that they’re in pain. Right? And so when you can spell it out, you actually help them understand, Oh, I didn’t realize that I was anxious, but I am anxious and I see that from this website. 

Arianna [00:33:20] Well, and it’s so calming, right? Even when you just said that, You just don’t have the financial skills, it’s like, Oh, oh, that’s it. I’m not a terrible person that’s bad with money. Right. And can’t you know- 

Linzy [00:33:33] So for folks who are listening and they’re like, okay, I have bought in. I understand. Copy is important. Thank you, Ari and Linzy, what would be tips for them? I feel like we’ve already kind of got a couple but like. What are some tips to get going to write that copy that’s actually going to attract their people? 

Arianna [00:33:50] Yeah, we have been kind of weaving in some of my top tips that I would give therapists, and one of those is just getting started. I think one of the things that therapists skip, and we’ve been kind of alluding to this, is really getting clear on where their client is at in their journey. Because often we write ahead to where they’re at. Right? You know, like Linzy, if you came to your audience and you’re like, here’s the thing you need. You need a… What are some accounting terms. 

Linzy [00:34:22] And some accounting terms like, yeah, you just need a clear profit and loss on a monthly basis. Yeah, I know, right? 

Arianna [00:34:27] I’m getting triggered. 

Linzy [00:34:28] And I never say that. I don’t even say the word budget in my in my marketing. People don’t want to hear about budgeting. They would rather like jump off a- out of a helicopter into a volcano than talk about budget. So we- I never lead with budgeting ever. So yeah, you can’t get ahead of your people. Yeah. 

Arianna [00:34:42] You can’t get ahead of your people. Right. And I think maybe the equivalent of this in the clinical world is trauma. Right. Like these clinical words, like when I’m working with folks, I’m like, you know, a lot of people, they know what that means just because of like TikTok and all of that. I mean, and like other things, you know, but often they don’t know that they have trauma. Or if they’re having relationship issues, they don’t know what it is. So we have to meet the client where they’re at and speak to them. And once again, this goes back to, we love to make things more complicated than they have to be. Right. But really, we just have to meet clients where they’re at. So if I were to condense this into a simple task, it would be getting clear on where your client is at in their journey. Right. Thinking about what you’re going to say before you say it. In copywriter jargon, that’s messaging. Right. The messaging is what you want to say. And then the copy is how you’re going to say it. I think another tip that is interwoven into our stuff here is the most conversion-happy copy is copy that is conversational and that is free of clinical jargon. Yes. And so a tip that I often have for folks around that is just read your copy out loud, right? You know, it’s like if you need to take a couple breaths to finish the sentence, it’s too fucking long. 

Linzy [00:36:02] It’s not conversational. 

Arianna [00:36:03] Shorten that. Yes, shorten that. Right. And you can use that in fragments. You can use conversational language and you don’t want to use clinic speak, but you might want to use jargon that indicates you’re an insider with your ideal client, right? Right. 

Linzy [00:36:20] Yes. Yes. 

Arianna [00:36:21] So like Linzy, like you work with therapists and you would want to signal, which you do, that like, Hey, I’m a therapist too. Let’s use terms around that. Right? So we have that nuance. 

Linzy [00:36:34] So that insider language. 

Arianna [00:36:35] Versus jargon, like you’re not going to talk about profit and loss because we’re all going to dissociate. 

Linzy [00:36:40] Immediately. Everybody will dissociate. Yes. So, yeah, it’s kind of, you know, strategically choosing like what are the terms, I think what are the terms that are going to bring you into connection versus the terms that are going to create like disconnection or overwhelm in your people, which is going to be different depending on who you’re serving. 

Arianna [00:36:58] Well, and in a way, like we kind of want to twist the knife a little in our copy. Because pain is a really great motivator. No one’s coming to therapy because life is going great. 

Linzy [00:37:07] No, no. It makes for pretty like boring therapy sessions in my experience. Yes. Yes, that’s very true.  

Arianna [00:37:15] Like, come on. Are you fighting with anyone in your life? Like, seriously, everything’s going good? Come on. I mean, did you get on like a text war with someone that, you know. 

Linzy [00:37:25] Anything. 

Arianna [00:37:26] But thinking of that- we’re talking about the overarching, the like what you’re going to say, how you’re going to say it. Another how is the show don’t tell, which we alluded to, not telling, but showing through engaging your reader’s five senses when they have anxiety, what are they feeling? What’s happening in their body? What are they seeing? What are they doing? There’s something I do with my with myself. Speaking of TikTok, it’s you know, I call it like the TikTok method. Where like, Tell me you’re a blank without telling me. 

Linzy [00:37:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Arianna [00:37:57] Right. 

Linzy [00:37:57] Yeah, I remember that one. 

Arianna [00:37:58] You can do that in your copy. Tell me you hate budgeting without telling me you hate budgeting. 

Linzy [00:38:02] Yes. 

Arianna [00:38:03] Right. And that’s what you’re doing. So you can think about this and you have fun with this. You know, like, tell me you have trauma without telling me you have trauma. How you answer that, that can be some copy, right? 

Linzy [00:38:14] That’s a cool prompt. 

Arianna [00:38:15] Yeah. So that’s back to the show don’t tell engaging people want to be in the center of the story. And that goes into like, my final tip, which is, you know, really leading with the benefits of your work. Therapists, we love to tell people about the process. You know, I’m an EMDR therapist and I feel like I prophesied, you know. But how many of your clients- I don’t know what modality you use, but like-. 

Linzy [00:38:40] EMDR. 

Arianna [00:38:40] Yeah, none of my and I use, like, some other modality. None of my clients know that. 

Linzy [00:38:48] They don’t know what you’re doing. 

Arianna [00:38:49] They just want to know what’s going to be on the other side. 

Linzy [00:38:51] Yes. It’s like you’re- they’re there for the transformation not to like, you know, tap their knees or like hold hand buzzers. Like, that’s not the point. That’s just the process. 

Arianna [00:39:01] Yeah. So always asking, you know, this- and this loops back in a beautiful way around your concern. If, like, nobody cares, I would say, well, make them care. Make it, you know, like, what benefits? Make them care with the benefits. 

Linzy [00:39:16] Yes, yes, yes. 

Arianna [00:39:17] On the other side of this, what are they going to experience? What are their emotional benefits? Mental, intellectual, physical, relational like? And I was recently hosting a workshop and one of the attendees was feeling really stuck on how to find the pain points of her ideal clients. And for her, a big light bulb was like, Oh, well, once I listed the benefits that they’re looking for, it became so clear what the pain points were. Right. So like the reverse, if you’re feeling stumped. Start with what your clients want. And then what’s the opposite of that? Right. And show that.

Linzy [00:39:54] That is so good. I hope everybody caught that. Do you have a list to rundown or. I was like, That was so good, Ari. Just sort of make sure people got it. 

Arianna [00:40:00] Yeah, I do have a freebie, like a mini guide that basically goes over some of these, you know, and I kind of condense it into clarify, conversational, connect the dots, which is leading with the benefits, captivate, which is using the senses. Right. The show don’t tell. And then concise, which is like what we were talking about with like if you need to take three breaths to finish that sentence. So what we talked about today is like meet your client where they’re at in their journey. Speak to that. Write in a conversational tone. Show don’t tell, using the TikTok method: tell me you’re a blank without telling me you’re blank. And then lead with the benefits. The question is, what’s in it for me? You know, make them care. 

Linzy [00:40:46] Awesome. Thank you, Ari. It’s been wonderful talking with you today. 

Arianna [00:40:50] It’s been fun. 

Linzy [00:40:51] And if folks want to find you, get that. Get that sweet freebie. It’s got lots of alliteration with C’S and we like that. It makes you think about internal family systems. They also have like the C’S of like being in your core self. It’s like where you feel calm, clear, compassionate. It’s like, how are there so many great words that start with C. I don’t know how that happened, but it is true. I mean. 

Arianna [00:41:10] I’m an IFS therapist too, and you and I were talking about our parts of ourselves. I was like. 

Linzy [00:41:15] Yeah, I am also EMDR and IFS, so you and I have a couple of things in common. So if folks want to find you, get that freebie, Where can they find you on the internet? 

Arianna [00:41:26] My website is thecopycove.com. 

Linzy [00:41:29] A copy code? 

Arianna [00:41:30] Cove. 

Linzy [00:41:30] Cove Cove. Like an ocean cove? 

Arianna [00:41:33] Yes. Yes. Like a little cozy cove. 

Linzy [00:41:37] Got that. copycove.com. 

Arianna [00:41:37] Nice. Yeah. Put that the in front of there. Otherwise you’re going to go to a print shop in California. 

Linzy [00:41:44] That could also be helpful, but probably not quite what you’re looking for. 

Arianna [00:41:48] I’m sure they’re great, but they probably can help you with that. Yes. And then I have freebies. I have a couple live workshops that are coming up. Yeah. So I have a little freebie menu on my website where you can snag all my stuff. 

Linzy [00:42:00] Beautiful, beautiful. And we’ll put the link to that in the show notes. So if folks are if you’re listening on your phone or whatever hop of the show notes, click on that link. Get Ari’s freebies. Don’t do not pass go. Go directly there. Get it. You’re going to forget about it. Trust me. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been lovely.

In the conversation with Ari today. It really occurred to me how parallel, you know, copyrighting and money are. And I’m sure there’s many other topics that could also fall into this category, right? Like blocks that we have negative beliefs, emotions, strong reactions that we have, don’t just block us in one area of our life. They can block us in so many other areas as well and block us in so many areas of business. Right. And business growth. And really acknowledging that something is hard and working on the barrier actually makes us available to learn the skills. So I think exactly in the way that I talk about how working through your relationship with money starting to be able to diffuse some of the like intense reactions that you have around it and be able to identify the trauma that is driving you around money so that you’re thinking and learning brain can be available to learn skills that are actually quite learnable. Copywriting is exactly the same. And as we talked about today, you know, I have my own negative stories and experiences that have made it hard for me to do the copywriting that not only I know I have to do, but I want to do right. I want to be able to write more and share more and show up more in that medium, because I know that that medium and you know, Krystal, who works with me and I were just talking about this today. I know that writing is actually a really good medium for me to show up because it’s a place to be thoughtful and peaceful and connect and tell stories. And so, you know, until we work on and identify and can be present with, you know, those parts of us that need, need support and nurturing, you know, in parts work language or to be present with the the reactions and emotions and stories so that we can start to release the power of them. It is hard to do these things. So we need to do both, right? We need to be present with the the emotional side of it so that we can start to learn skills that are learnable. So I just I love how these two things connect so directly. So if you’re interested, definitely do check out Ari. She’s wonderful. And I know she mentioned to me that she does have the next round of her courses coming up soon. She’s got some workshops coming up. She’s got all sorts of stuff. So if you’re excited about her, jump over to her website, get those opt ins and get into her email, because I bet she has a really good email list.

If you are enjoying the podcast, you can also follow me on Instagram, where we share free, emotional and practical money tips at @moneynutsandbolts on Instagram. And like I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, those reviews on Apple Podcasts are so helpful to help how folks find the podcast. And also I’d love to hear what the podcast is doing for you and how it’s landing with you. So please jump over to Apple Podcasts and take one minute to leave me review. I’m going to I’m actually going to make a pledge. My favorite podcast is working it out with Mike Birbiglia, and I’ve never left him a review, even though I love his podcast dearly. So I’m going to go review his podcast right now. And so while I do that, please review my podcast and we’ll just like we’ll just keep putting out that nice podcast review energy into the world. Thanks for listening today.