Hannah [00:00:01] I am taking away a renewed sense of excitement and energy around these intensives. It does really more and more seem like my next steps and I’m also taking away my best self can run my business now, it doesn’t have to be the poor little people pleaser that was just in there trying to help things out. She doesn’t have to run the show. She’s not alone.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. I am excited today to be bringing you the first coaching session of season five with a therapist who is in Money Skills For Therapists right now and who is so lovely as you’re about to find out. Her name is Dr. Hannah Joharchi. Hannah is an Iranian American and White psychologist in California and Florida, who focuses on trauma recovery with folks who’ve survived medical trauma, intergenerational trauma, and developmental trauma. And people recovering from depression and anxiety. In our conversation today, Hannah brought up a topic that I think is close to many of our hearts, which is how to balance her social justice values, her people-pleasing tendencies that she talks about, how they actually kind of those people-pleasing tendencies kind of built her business, balancing those parts of her with actually creating a business that’s sustainable and take care of her needs and to stop the cycle of burnout that she has been in, previous to starting to do this work. We get into some- a really lovely space around connecting with, you know, different parts of herself that are there and starting to even start to develop muscles about being connected to her own needs. So if you’re someone who struggles with people pleasing or who you know, philosophically struggles with, how do you balance business and social justice when you know you need to make a living, but you also really care about people and issues and want to contribute where you can? This is going to be a great episode for you. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Hannah Joharchi. So, Hannah, you are a student in Money Skills For Therapists right now. We’re going to get into a coaching piece. We’ve had a coaching conversation before through the course, and you actually won the coaching call through the Money Momentum Challenge. So we’re going to have another one later, but this is going to be our podcast coaching time together. And so, Hannah, what did you want to bring to this coaching session today? What topic?
Hannah [00:03:01] Yeah, so I am forever grateful for Money Skills For Therapists and you and your team. I’ll just say that because it has just opened my eyes to a lot of things that I’ve been making some changes in my business and I’ve kind of paired it with some of the inner work that I’m doing and just realizing that, you know, for years I’ve sort of like worked in places and then done my private practice on the side, only to keep burning myself out and running up my own personal credit card debt. And so while I’m grateful to do this work, it wasn’t sustainable. So I had to, over the course of like the past year or so, really look at what I can and can’t do as opposed to like stuffing down the part of me that wants to people-please. I highlighted that part, gave that part space, but just like I don’t have my people pleaser running my business anymore.
Linzy [00:03:54] Right.
Hannah [00:03:55] Yes. I’m just trying to come to you to say, okay, how do I navigate this balance between the important value of social justice for me while also having a sustainable business? So I thought maybe we could talk about that.
Linzy [00:04:09] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so you had mentioned, you know, before we started recording, the way you’d summarize it is your people pleaser kind of led the building of your business or that part was really front and center.
Hannah [00:04:22] Absolutely. I could like I could go and go and do and do, and now I’m just like, Oh, okay. Without the people pleaser sort of driving my bus, which is just kind of a part of me, but like my best self, right, is sort of running the business. It’s different. It’s really different. Yes.
Linzy [00:04:42] Okay. So tell me about what are some of the changes that you’ve made so far in this effort to have more balance? Because what I’m hearing before is it was out of balance, like too much of that caregiving people pleasing, leading to burnout and financial debt.
Hannah [00:04:55] Yeah.
Linzy [00:04:55] Right. What are some of the changes or tweaks that you’ve made so far in this process?
Hannah [00:05:01] Okay, so some of the things have been: I used to have a couple of therapy scholarship slots and I no longer have those. And that’s a great thing, but it’s- I’m not like inclusive therapists. I’m not a whole directory or a whole group of people. I’m just a super small business, still sort of navigating the foundations of my business so that doesn’t fit. I no longer have that, which is probably saving thousands of dollars a year. I guess I kind of pare down the work that I do for free on the side that I don’t know if it’s reaching as many people. So like, for example, I was on a trauma recovery podcast with a good friend of mine and we’ve stopped doing that. So that frees up some time. I guess the work that I’m doing around my mindset will probably be the biggest thing in Money Skills For Therapists and just highlighting, you know, and with my work with business on a budget around the mindset and the value of what I do, increasing rates, that type of thing.
Linzy [00:06:08] Okay. Yeah. So I’m hearing partially you’ve let go of some things that were more, you know, more like social justice or like maybe accessibility, like a podcast is a nice, accessible way to share information. But you mentioned like the scholarship, it’s kind of like a bit big for where you are in terms of your ability to sustain something like that. And I think that’s a good way to talk about like a scholarship is something that’s given when there’s extra that therefore can be used by somebody who can’t pay. But you’re not at that place in your business at this time. And your podcast- I’m getting from you that you don’t think it was necessarily having the reach that made it worth the time?
Hannah [00:06:45] Yes. And it was just like, I get nervous. I’m like, I don’t know what to say. Like, I feel like, yeah. So there was like, a few things, but yeah.
Linzy [00:06:52] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It wasn’t like your happy place.
Hannah [00:06:55] Was not my- I would rather write, like, blogs. I would rather be writing than talking. Okay.
Linzy [00:07:00] Okay. You and I are the opposite. We could probably help each other out in business. What I’m hearing now, though, is like, there’s this need or desire to make sure you’re balancing. Right? Like, we don’t want to throw out all the things that have to do with your social justice values or the folks that you love to serve. But also, there’s been many things that have been contributing to burnout and financial debt that, you know, need to go. So tell me right now, what does that conflict look like between kind of that like people pleasing caregiving and social justice and like wanting to be financially well, not burnt out, feel empowered, or all the positives you’re looking for on the other side?
Hannah [00:07:37] Okay. So that is a great question. I guess it kind of looks like some indecision. So when, for example, something comes my way, do I help out? Do I not? So still some of that residual like back and forth with them and just not knowing, I guess, what it will look like to contribute? Yeah, what that would look like and what will feel like when this part of me that just wants to please and help people out isn’t really running the show.
Linzy [00:08:06] Mm hmm. And with the other part, like, I’m curious, you know, we’re talking parts language. It seems very IFS-E language. Is that is that the school of thought that you’re in?
Hannah [00:08:16] Yeah.
Linzy [00:08:16] Yeah. So internal family systems for folks who are not familiar with the modality, you know you made reference to kind of self earlier, you know being more in self energy. I am also curious are there other aspects or parts of yourself that you notice stepping up that you would like to have leading your business?
Hannah [00:08:33] I love that, yeah. There’s the parts of me that are just kind of genuinely motivational that aren’t necessarily trying to take care of others, but just happy to be around people, happy to like, say, kind, motivational, uplifting things and just kind of be like a nice energy around folks. So I guess I’ve never thought of that. Be like, I would love for that part of me to sort of be one of the leaders in the show here.
Linzy [00:09:03] Like that part of you that loves people. I have that part, too. That’s a big part of why, you know, I like to do the work that I do. So that’s one part. I’m curious. Are there any parts like your you know, you’re talking about the work that you’ve been doing in Money Skills, some other work that you’ve been doing, you know, in terms of money mindset. Are there any parts of you that you’ve connected with or any energies around like being a leader or taking care of your own needs or empowerment or what have you kind of connected with so far and yourself around those things?
Hannah [00:09:33] MM Yeah. So like basically are you saying the other parts of me that are taking care of myself?
Linzy [00:09:41] Yeah, that would certainly be an important part of it. Yeah.
Hannah [00:09:43] I’m not really sure. That’s a really good question too. I guess, but like concrete stuff, like what I do to take care of myself, like meditation.
Linzy [00:09:51] No, I was thinking even in terms of just like parts of yourself, right? Because we were talking about there’s the caregiving people pleasing, right, that has led. And that has led to burnout. Right? Because that, you know, when we’re coming from that energy in our self, there’s no really connection to our own needs, but it’s just like, well, own needs aside, this person needs this and this person needs this. Of course, there’s endless people with unmet needs. Then I’m hearing there’s another side to be identified that’s kind of part of your business, which is that you really like being around people and you really like people, right? And there’s that connection. I’m wondering how you connected with any boss energy, accountant energy, bookkeeper energy. Like, is there anything like that that you’ve started to develop in yourself of a part of you? What I’m starting to think about Hannah is like, what part of you is tracking your needs and know when your cup is full enough that other parts of you can also have their needs met. Right.
Hannah [00:10:39] No. Okay. This is why I didn’t understand your question.
Linzy [00:10:42] Yes.
Hannah [00:10:43] No. There is no accounting in there. No, there’s no there’s no. I mean, like that is mind-blowing to me when you talk about like spreadsheets and being accountable every week. You know, my accountability buddy just texted me from the group and it’s like all this connection. I’m looking at the stuff that I shy away from or run away from. Really Just yeah, I think probably freeze around. So no, I have not even begun to think about like, is there an inner boss or inner accountant?
Linzy [00:11:13] Mm hmm.
Hannah [00:11:13] It’s all the propaganda around, like emotional labor being less valuable than some of the tech work or whatever around us. And so I have not yet really let those accountant boss parts of me, show up.
Linzy [00:11:29] Mm hmm. And you don’t need to have an accountant part, by the way. I have one of those, but, like. That’s not required.
Hannah [00:11:33] I like it though.
Linzy [00:11:36] Like, you know, in the list of options, because, you know, what I’m thinking about here is, like, connecting with clarity around what you need. Because I’m hearing there’s balance here. And what I’m hearing there’s been a lack of balance. There’s been this like over giving and this like pouring from yourself, which leads to burnout, maybe repeated burnout. Is that accurate?
Hannah [00:11:55] Oh, yeah.
Linzy [00:11:56] Yeah. And what I’m not hearing yet is like a part that’s really gauging where you’re at, like your needs emotionally, energetically, but also financially, to have that eye on, ‘okay, because I’m here, now I can give’, right? I have my own oxygen on and now I can run this amazing group at a reduced or, you know, you know, free. Right, or now I can write, you know, my blog articles that will go out to thousands of people who might never be able to afford to pay me. Right. And so I’m wondering, Hannah, like, if you can think about that a part that can have track of your own needs, what do you think that might feel like internally? First of all, what do you- we’re just going to kind of connect and imagine. Be curious what would feel different if there were- you were tracking your own needs on a regular basis, even in a small way.
Hannah [00:12:50] I guess as you ask, I’m already starting to feel calm. Yeah. I feel a sense of calmness in my heart. I can imagine feeling empowered to kind of move ahead with things and less scared and scrambling and, like, trying to look at a bunch of different things at once. But I already feel it in my body and my heart right now. Just feeling a sense of calm.
Linzy [00:13:14] Mm hmm. And from that place of calm and like, you know, the lack of all the stuff we just talked about, what kind of actions could come from this place to help you be connected with where you’re at and basically how much you can get, what you have to give.
Hannah [00:13:30] I think it has the feeling like I would slow down on some of the projects. I constantly have these ideas and I love doing some of them and some of them, you know, I think it would just have me slowing down. Like I don’t have to necessarily jump into this and jump into that and do these supports for other therapists or things like that when really I could kind of just focus on my own clinical caseload right now and stuff like that. So it just has me thinking I would slow down.
Linzy [00:14:06] Right. So there’d be stuff that you might delay or maybe even put aside. Yeah. And thinking about this, like, what information do you need to have to be able to guide you in a more grounded way, you know, in balancing these two parts of you, Right? Or in balancing, maybe it’s like balancing your desire for social justice and to, you know, take care of others, with probably the needs of many, many other parts of you on the other side. What could that actually look like for you?
Hannah [00:14:37] Yeah, I guess I’m just thinking I kind of need reminders to check in with these parts. Right. So I think that, like, even just getting outside, looking at my board with my pictures of what I’m hoping for for this year. Just having those regular things in place helps me to do that check in. Mm hmm. Everything, you know, sounds great here. And then I’ll forget. So I think that checking in regularly.
Linzy [00:15:09] Yes. Well, let’s think now about the money side of it.
Hannah [00:15:13] Yeah. Right. You’re so good at this stuff. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
Linzy [00:15:19] So as we think about connecting with your financial needs, what information is missing right now, Hannah, or what could be added to, you know, the way that you’re already showing up for yourself and taking care of money, that’s going to help you to start to have this gauge of of where you’re at and your capacity to do these expanded projects.
Hannah [00:15:39] Okay, So that has me thinking of, I’m in a like, generative place where I’m feeling like supervision is super fun. So thinking that I could branch out on what I already love. If you’re asking about money, you know, it does, you know, I’d love to say we do it for nothing. But no, like, that’s what all this is about. Like, I don’t know. So I think I could look more into supervising and some of that, like, generativity through that, being the supervisor I didn’t necessarily have. I had a couple of really amazing ones and a couple of super inappropriate ones. So I can be doing more of that. And, you know, I, I’ve talked with you about this for a second, but I love what’s happening with the EMDR Intensives, so maybe I could figure out how to improve my copy or like have people coming in through my EMDR intensives more because I just love when they come in for like a short chunk of targeted work and feel they’re like, This has changed my life, that’s already helping. All that feels so good to be doing that. So maybe I can just do more of what I like.
Linzy [00:16:50] Yeah, right. Which I think is like generally good life advice, right? It’s just like, just do more of what you like, do more of it, light you up. And what I’m hearing here too, Hannah, is like those things that you really like are also things that are going to pay you well, right? So they’re not the things where you’re also like, well, it’s $5. Oh, you don’t have $5? Okay, that’s fine. I don’t need to pay rent. These are the things that actually will make your practice more financially sustainable at the same time. Yeah, right. So sounds like there’s an alignment there.
Hannah [00:17:21] You’ve got it. Exactly.
Linzy [00:17:23] So now I want to get a little nitty gritty into your numbers for you. How are you going to actually get clear on the numbers that you need to see from these beautiful, generative things that you’re already excited about to know when you’ve actually made it to that point where your financial needs are being met?
Hannah [00:17:45] Yeah. Yeah. I think if I. Okay. So you’ve got me understanding what I need a month from what I make per month after like taxes and running the show. Right. And I think I would need to start adding at least one more EMDR intensive a month at this point. If I think about it numbers wise, that would also have me seeing a little bit less clients on the the weekly basis. Right.
Linzy [00:18:14] So is that all you need is like one more to close that gap between what you need monthly and where you are monthly.
Hannah [00:18:21] Yeah. If I moved from where I’m at and just went to intensives, which sounds really fun in my heart, I’m like, That sounds great. That would mean that I would need a few intensives a month. So that would mean I would need specifically three.
Linzy [00:18:22] Three. Okay, so.
Hannah [00:18:22] Numbers wise, you know.
Linzy [00:18:40] Yeah. So are you saying that with three EMDR intensives a month, you could cover your financial needs for the month?
Hannah [00:18:45] Yes.
Linzy [00:18:47] Wow.
Hannah [00:18:49] That is weird. That is not what I was expecting. Yeah, cause you have me doing the pre-math of, like, in the course of, like, what do you need? What you make? And I’m like, Oh, that would be covered so quickly.
Linzy [00:19:02] So fast. Yeah. So I mean, that’s interesting information and noticing too, like where you’re getting that like sparky, excited, lean towards feeling, you know, because the other thing that you could play with Hannah is like what if you did transition to a practice for a while that was just intensives and you really worked on like honing your marketing to call in those people and like really positioned yourself as an EMDR intensive therapist. What do you think it would be like for you personally to be doing three intensives a month? And that’s the work that you do for a little while?
Hannah [00:19:37] That would be so fun. Like, it scares me. I’ll be honest. There’s a part of me like, how would I get people to come and blah, blah, blah. But if I don’t think about that part and I think about the people who have already seen for intensives, yes, I’m like, This would be so freaking fun. Like they’d walk away, like, really happy and satisfied and I would love it.
Linzy [00:19:56] And if you were seeing doing three Intensive, how how long is it intensive? Is it a-
Hannah [00:20:01] Typically it’s like three. There’s no typical. It could be whatever the person needs. But I love doing like the three three-hour chunks. So it’s like a total of ten. With the one hour of like, Hello, what are your dreams? Blah blah blah. Yeah.
Linzy [00:20:13] Okay. Total of 10 hours. Mm hmm. Okay. So is it like three days in a row?
Hannah [00:20:18] It could be like every other, so it could be like a Monday to Friday.
Linzy [00:20:21] Okay. Okay. So if that’s all the work you’re doing, we’re just. We’re. We’re leaning in and imagining how you had those three intensives a month. So, like, 10 hours with those three different people. What space would that open up in your life for all these other things that you’re passionate about?
Hannah [00:20:39] Oh, my gosh. There would be no problem to write. Like all the free blogs that I write, there would be no problem to help fellow Iranian-American therapists. There would be no problem to support, you know, our LGBTQ community. So it would be it would be at that point like. You know, where am I most useful? And it would be like this, I can imagine, like this stream of energy. It would be coming from a whole different place than like, I’m exhausted, I hope I can stay awake during this thing, you know?
Linzy [00:21:14] Right? Right. Yes. So you get to change three people’s lives a month in a profound way, and then you have extra energy to work on the support the folks that you care about and the issues that you’re passionate about in the rest of your month.
Hannah [00:21:31] Okay, This sounds amazing. Yeah. This is so good. Yeah.
Linzy [00:21:36] Yeah. What are you noticing? Thinking about this.
Hannah [00:21:38] It sounds really fun. I’m also, like, thinking about personal stuff. I’m like, I want to go camping and like have some more fun, too.
Linzy [00:21:44] Yeah, man. Yeah. Which is what life is about, right? And like, when we do those things, when we go camping or we have some cool project or we go on a trip where we have, like, beautiful time with our partner, we also show up differently as therapists, right? Because we’re actually filled up and inspired and excited and like that comes across too, in the work that we do. People can feel that from you.
Hannah [00:22:06] Absolutely.
Linzy [00:22:08] So Hannah, coming to the end of our time together today, what are you taking away from our conversation?
Hannah [00:22:16] I am taking away a renewed sense of excitement and energy around these intensives. It is really more and more seem like my next steps. And I’m also taking away nice sort of like my best self can run my business so it doesn’t have to be the poor little people pleaser. I was just in there trying to help things out. She doesn’t have to run the show. She can kind of. She’s not alone, right? Yeah.
Linzy [00:22:45] Yeah, absolutely. And something that’s been in my mind, too, as we’re talking, is also like different seasons of life, like what we want and what fits. And like, it feels to me, you know and we have talked about this a little bit before too, as we said, like these EMDR intensives seem to really make sense for your season of life right now. Like, they’re exciting, you know, and they’re maybe seasonal. Like, we were like, That’s too intense. I don’t want to do that. But right now, this is what lights you up, right? And so it’s like, what can you do to actually make that happen and let this be the business that you want and need right now? Let that business be a reality.
Hannah [00:23:20] Absolutely. Yeah.
Linzy [00:23:22] Awesome. Well, thank you, Hannah.
Hannah [00:23:24] Thank you so much.
Linzy [00:23:39] In my conversation with Hannah, there really was this moment where, you know, listeners would have noticed that I think we both realized, like what I was talking about, you know, being able to connect with this boss part of yourself or this accountant, like a part that can be keeping track of your actual needs and understanding what you need. Or Hannah was just like, Oh, that’s just not been a part of me that’s been at the table. Not a muscle that she had consciously developed. But as soon as we started even talking about that concept, there was a big shift. Right. And this, you know, she talked about peace in her heart of what it’s like to actually have a part of you, or if parts language is not language you speak, just to be tracking your own needs and having those as part of what is front and center as you’re thinking about your business and giving and justice and what you can do for people who have less than you or for issues that you care about. There is such a huge shift in energy, and even though it was a new concept that took a second for us to kind of sink into, when we did, Hannah immediately started to connect with like spark and excitement and like, you know, immediately could start to identify the work that not only that she loves and that she’s excited about, but that actually will get her to that place of having her financial needs met. And when we got to that point in the conversation where I realized that she only needed three EMDR intensives to cover her month, I was just like, Whoa, if this is what you love and this lights you up and you only need to do three a month to have your needs met like this is this is obviously the direction that your business wants you to go, that your heart wants you to go. So, so powerful. Just when we do actually get in touch with what we really want, you know, like the heart knows, you know, we need to have the math which comes from the brain. We need to understand our financial needs. But once you’re in touch with those financial needs and Hannah is, as she said, because of the work she’s been doing in Money Skills For Therapists, she knows that monthly number, doing the math, realizing that she only needs that one more intensive or three intensives total, then you can actually connect with your body and that wisdom of what is the work you want to do to actually get there and how can you get there, right? So there is that real mind-body combo where wisdom lives. So grateful to Hannah for coming on the podcast today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. We share free, practical and emotional content on there all the time about money and private practice. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate if you could leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way for folks to find us. Thanks for listening today.