Natalia [00:00:03] And this would have my name on it, and this person would be a representation of me and my practice in the way I work. And I really have to trust someone. And I don’t- I don’t know this magical person. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So before we get started today, I wanted to share a review on Apple Podcasts that one of our listeners left. The review is from Eileen. Eileen says Profound gems, and each episode she says, As of writing this review, I’ve listened to all of Linzy’s podcast episodes. I have to say that I’ve taken away profound nuggets of insight, advice, wisdom and tangible skills to try in each episode. My only regret is that I listened to most of these while driving in the car. Next time, though, I’ll be ready to have a pen and paper ready in order to capture the gems sprinkled throughout her episodes. This podcast is a must for healers of any kind. Thank you so much, Eileen, for your podcast review on Apple Podcasts. It’s so appreciated. I’m so glad that the podcast has been connecting with you and that you’re finding value in every episode. And for other folks listening, if you’re also enjoying the podcast, jump over to Apple Podcasts. It really helps. Today’s podcast episode is a coaching episode with Natalia Buchanan. Natalia is a therapist working in Austin, helping those who struggle with disordered eating. She is a graduate of the original beta course of Money Skills For Therapists, as she mentions towards the end of our conversation today. And she came to our coaching session today wanting support with feeling blocked around expanding beyond solo practice. If you have a full solo practice, you’re really going to relate to Natalia in terms of having a wait list of people that you just can’t serve. You just never get to it and realizing that you really are not being able to help those people. But also, she talks about this feeling of kind of like leaving money on the table, like all these people want her help and yet she’s not able to see them. So she talks about these blocks and concerns she had around expanding and hiring an associate moving into group practice. Very quickly, our conversation shifted, and I’m not going to give it away, but if you are someone who has a full practice and you’ve been contemplating moving into group practice but are finding yourself hesitate, this is going to be the episode for you. Enjoy. Natalia, welcome to the podcast. 

Natalia [00:03:15] Thank you. I’m happy to be here. 

Linzy [00:03:17] I am so happy to see you. I was just saying this off mic. It’s always so nice to see you and I’m really excited to have you on today. So let’s just dig right in to what you want support with today. So tell me, what do you want to have more clarity on by the end of our session? 

Natalia [00:03:32] Yeah. So I think I would like to look at my fear of, I guess it’s continued success, bigger success, up leveling. 

Linzy [00:03:44] Okay. Okay. Yeah. So tell me about what that fear is looking like right now. What are you noticing about it. 

Natalia [00:03:50] Right now I am feeling resistant to hiring an associate in my private practice. My private psychotherapy practice. I have not been able to take a new client in quite a while and I could really use the help.  

Linzy [00:04:12] Okay. Yep. So you’ve got more demand than you’re able to meet. 

Natalia [00:04:16] Mm hmm. And there’s a part of me that feels very afraid to take it to this next step. 

Linzy [00:04:24] Okay. And what do you notice? Kind of the stories around that fear are? 

Natalia [00:04:28] The word that’s coming to mind is I will lose control. The secondary fear is it’ll be too expensive. I won’t be able to generate the income, the referrals, whatever it may be, to support an associate. 

Linzy [00:04:48] Right. So first off, you’ll lose control. The second one that sounds like it’s like it won’t work, like the numbers won’t work or the marketing won’t work, that it ultimately won’t be successful. 

Natalia [00:04:58] Mhm 

Linzy [00:04:59] Okay. So that fear of control piece, like what control do you see yourself possibly giving up by bringing on an associate in your practice? 

Natalia [00:05:06] Well, I can’t control the way they do therapy. No, the way I do therapy. 

Linzy [00:05:13] Right. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So what actually happens in that room with clients you can’t control? 

Natalia [00:05:19]  And this would have my name on it, and this person would be a representation of me. And my practice is the way I work. And I really have to trust someone. And I don’t know this magical person. 

Linzy [00:05:34] This hypothetical human. Yes. Okay. Okay. Right. So you’d have to you’d have to trust. I mean, a question that I have is thinking about this, like branching out to an associate is I’m hearing that part of it is like it kind of solves a problem that you have, right? There’s like more demand than you can meet. You haven’t been able to take a new client in a while. And I think this happens to a lot of us. Like when you’re good and when you’ve built your reputation and you’ve carved out your niche, you do naturally get to a point where you just can’t serve everybody who wants to work with you. It’s just not possible. And even if you have a waitlist, you’re never going to work through that waitlist. Kind of at the pace that people are coming right now, it just doesn’t work. So a question that I have looking at it in the positive is what other needs would it mean to work with an associate? Like do you want to be a manager or do you want to be a mentor? Do you want to, you know, like work closely with someone else? Is there anything like that in the mix for you? 

Natalia [00:06:29] Well, since this is a financial podcast, I am very money minded and I realize that’s money on the table that I’m leaving. 

Linzy [00:06:39] Right. Yeah. So that idea that you’re leaving money on the table. Okay. Yep. So there’d be a financial opportunity cost that you’re missing by not having somebody on. 

Natalia [00:06:48] That’s one reason I like the idea of being a mentor or supervisor. Being a manager? I’ve never done that before. I don’t have any experience with that. 

Linzy [00:07:00] Yeah. Do you think you would like it? Just knowing yourself. 

Natalia [00:07:03] I’m not sure. 

Linzy [00:07:05] Okay. You know, the reason I’m bringing this to the forefront of this conversation right now to tell you is I think that when we are in the situation that you’re in, which, again, I have been in that situation to myself where it’s like, okay, this is it. Like I’m at my capacity of who I can serve. The natural thing that comes to mind and that everybody else will tell you is just hire somebody. Just start a small group practice. Like just hire somebody. I had like my next door neighbor tell me that, like, she’s a teacher. Even she, you know, was like, well, obviously you need to hire someone. And we kind of get that message from from all corners. Right. And so it’s easy to think that that is that is the move we have to make or that, as you say, we’re leaving money on the table if we don’t make that move. What I have noticed, though, is that, like, that’s a specific job that you’re signing up for. Even if you just have one associate you are signing up to become, as I say, you’re becoming a manager, you’re becoming a mentor. You’re going to be that that point person for clinical issues. And maybe you could hire out for supervision. But no matter what, as you say, what’s happening in that room directly reflects your brand. Right. Any things that are going wrong in that room do come back on on you and your reputation. And so that is part of what you’re signing up for, right? You’re not just signing up for more money. You were signing up for a job of being a manager. And I’m curious for you. Pure gut check. Do you want to be a manager? 

Natalia [00:08:21] No. 

Linzy [00:08:23] Okay, so let’s think about some other options. 

Natalia [00:08:26] I like that idea. 

Linzy [00:08:27] Yeah, because there are other ways to also get certain types of service to folks who want to come to you for your reputation. So here’s some of some other options that might be there for you. One would be creating a course on your area of expertize. How does that idea land with you? Just kind of off the top. 

Natalia [00:08:48] If I could snap my fingers and say I have my course up and running. Absolutely. Put it up there. I would be happy and proud and excited. 

Linzy [00:08:56] Okay. Those are words you are not using when it comes to having an associate. Happy, proud, excited. 

Natalia [00:09:02] That is how I feel. Yes. 

Linzy [00:09:03] So that’s helpful information for us, right? Like on a gut level. That sounds a lot more energizing. And so I’m hearing that like getting to that destination of having the course, that would be exciting. What about between here and there? Of creating, of course. What comes up when you think about that? 

Natalia [00:09:19] I would worry that I wouldn’t have the discipline to do it alone. 

Linzy [00:09:22] Right. Okay. So lacking the discipline. And is that something that you know about yourself, that sometimes you can lack discipline when you’re left to your own devices? 

Natalia [00:09:31] Absolutely. Okay. 

Linzy [00:09:32] Okay. So what would be a solution for that? 

Natalia [00:09:35] I work really well with accountability. If I’m checking in with someone, if I’m taking some sort of course or mastermind, I will show up. I will do the work. 

Linzy [00:09:49] I know that about you. And I’ve seen you do that. Yes. You’re an excellent student. Right. So that’s that’s something that you can use to your advantage. The good news is, Natalia, there is a ton of courses about making courses and a ton of master minds out there that would love to support you with this, I’m sure. Right. So there there’s like a support that basically is like sitting there waiting for you if this is something you want to do. Because what I would be curious about with this and tell you too is like even just running your numbers what financially could look like for you if you did a course as opposed to an associate, because something about associates is they also get paid, right? Yes. Because they’re actually the one providing a service. And even if you do a 50/50 split, you know, which is kind of it depends on in your area what is kind of like a normal split. But what I see kind of the steeper splits, I see it’s more like 50/50. That means there’s only 50% of the money to then also like pay for any expenses associated with that associate. You’re also putting in time and work. Right. We know that there’s taxes that come off of that because you’ve done money skills and you’ve got your systems worked out. So it’s like it often doesn’t pay as much as people think it does. 

Natalia [00:10:51] Right. 

Linzy [00:10:52] Yes. Which is why often people scale into larger practices, because it’s when you start adding five clinicians, seven clinicians, that money really starts to come in. Of course, all of that money is for you. Right. All of those sales that you make, some of those will go to like running software and stuff like that. But the cost of software is much less than the cost of paying an employee. Yes, significantly less. 

Natalia [00:11:12] Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:11:13] So that’s one idea. Would you like to think about other ideas for this? 

Natalia [00:11:18] Absolutely. I like the idea, number one. That’s a good one. 

Linzy [00:11:22] We started good. So another I mean, I’m going to tell you, I’m biased towards courses because I think that, like, you can package up your gift and you have a gift, right? There’s a reason that you are full. You can package up your brilliance and you can sell it for a good amount of money because it literally changes people’s lives. So I’m a huge fan of that. Other kind of options would be a membership site. Right. So have a place where folks can join like a lower price point. Right. But it’s like a larger community. You’re offering more of a community experience rather than content. You would have content in that membership site. Membership sites, I find, probably work better. It’s like a longer term model, right? And you’re kind of like always on. So I find it works well for people who are very extroverted, who love building community, who are excited at the thought of kind of like it’s always going on. How does a membership site land with you? 

Natalia [00:12:09] Gut check reaction is no. 

Linzy [00:12:13] Yeah. Okay. I’m sorry. Maybe I could have sold it better, but my gut for you is also No. So, I mean, with this, like, I don’t know if you’re going to do better than a course, truthfully, like you could do info products, like you could sell like smaller courses, you could write a book, but books, we don’t make money off of books. Books more like establish your credibility. Right? Unless you’re a writer and you love to write, is writing something you love to do? 

Natalia [00:12:37] It is something I’m good at. It’s not something that I do often. 

Linzy [00:12:40] Okay. Yes. So and there’s a writing component to your to creating a course. Right. But what I have certainly seen is like when you have expertize like you do, having a course is where you can really like package that expertize. You know how your clients learn. So you can think about how to set it up for them to succeed. You can think about how much support do they need and when. Like, is this something? Are they really going to want to do it by themselves? Would you have calls that you do every couple of weeks? Does it work? Well, if they go through in a cohort, so they’re with a group and they feel that momentum of a group or will people kind of want to do it at their own pace? Like there’s all these little tweaks and variations, but ultimately. What you’re doing is packaging up those conversations that you have over and over and over and over again with your clients. Yes, you’re packaging those up, but in a way you’re packaging them like the best version of that talk you get to record. Right. And then you get to create the worksheet that goes with it. It’s like those key pieces that you wish every client would take the time to think through. And then you think about what is their journey? What is your client journey like? What are the key things that need to happen for them to get them on the other side of the transformation that you’re offering them? 

Natalia [00:13:44] Yes. Yes. And as you’re saying that, I’m thinking that sounds fairly easy for me because my specialty is I work with people who struggle with emotional eating, and I can tell you, the first five sessions, what I’m- the things that I am trying to find out about. 

Linzy [00:14:03] Totally. Yes. So something for you to think about. And like I’ve had a couple of people on season three that we’ve recorded with and they haven’t come out yet episodes, but who are course creator people who are like, talk to a lawyer, talk to a lawyer, talk to a lawyer. So I’m going to say that to you, too. You know, you want to make sure that you’re staying within the bounds of what’s appropriate for a course and also helping people to flag when it’s time to seek medical attention. Talk to a professional. Right. Like we don’t want to be saying that you’re replacing therapy, but you are you can package up some of those therapeutic resources that you have that people can self-study. Right, and then offer some amount of support. So that’s something you want to think about, too, within your licensure, making sure that you’re saying, you know, like above board and within your code of ethics. But those are all figure out all things. 

Natalia [00:14:47] Yes, agreed. 

Linzy [00:14:48] So what do you notice about about this idea as opposed to hiring an associate? 

Natalia [00:14:52] I feel a lot more energy and flow behind it. I have tried twice now to hire an associate, seriously,  yes. And each time it has not felt right. Yes. 

Linzy [00:15:06] And why do you think that is? 

Natalia [00:15:08] It’s not the right way for me. 

Linzy [00:15:09] Yes. And I think that that is true for a lot of therapists. Maegan Megginson and I have joked before about like sometimes we feel like we’re the people who try to talk people out of group practice. And I’ve seen people who love group practice. Natalia And like they light up at the thought of like mentoring and like creating a community. Like it’s like the stuff that lights them up is all the content of your practice. But I’m not really hearing that. 

Natalia [00:15:33] For, you know, that is not what liked me up. No. Yeah. Okay. 

Linzy [00:15:39] So what I’m hearing is, of course, seems to be much more energizing. 

Natalia [00:15:44] Yes, yeah, yeah. I like that idea. 

Linzy [00:15:46] So thinking about that then, knowing yourself, what are your next steps to get you started down this road? What do you need? 

Natalia [00:15:53] I would probably need to start investigating, seriously, a side hustle slash course mastermind. 

Linzy [00:16:02] Yes. Okay. So I don’t know her, but I am going to recommend to you, as we’re recording, Marissa Lawton. 

Natalia [00:16:08] She’s actually who I was thinking of. 

Linzy [00:16:10] Yeah. Therapist side hustle. So I would definitely check her out. She’s kind of like a colleague of colleagues. I just. I hear good things about her. So, you know, there are people like her who have programs specifically about this. 

Natalia [00:16:21] Yes. 

Linzy [00:16:22] So it sounds like knowing yourself, you know, that that structure is important. 

Natalia [00:16:26] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I like being around other colleagues and hearing their ideas and what they’re doing. And I like that energy.  

Linzy [00:16:39] Are there any other pieces that’ll be helpful for us to dig into while we’re thinking about this together? 

Natalia [00:16:44] I feel pretty good about this piece that we’ve just done. 

Linzy [00:16:47] Did we do it? 

Natalia [00:16:48] I think we did. 

Linzy [00:16:49] Beautiful. Coming back to your original question, I guess now a question I have for you is, is it that you have a block around expanding or is it that you’ve just been maybe looking at expanding in a way that you knew in your gut was not right for you?

Natalia [00:17:01] That is a great differentiation. I was attempting to expand in a way that was not right for me because you and I were chatting before we started the podcast that I also had a side hustle of flipping used books, and that started during the pandemic because basically I was bored and yes. 

Linzy [00:17:25] Need a challenge. 

Natalia [00:17:26] And there’s a part of me that’s very much an entrepreneur. I like, I like a challenge. I like figuring things out. How is this going to work? This didn’t work. Let’s make it better and it’s something I’m still doing and it’s very, very fun. 

Linzy [00:17:40] Yes. Yes. So yeah. So I think that this it sounds like in a way, you kind of maybe generalize the story that it’s about expanding. But what I’m hearing is actually like you like a challenge. You do have an entrepreneurial spirit. It’s just finding the right thing. 

Natalia [00:17:52] Yes, yeah, yeah. Okay. 

Linzy [00:17:54] Anything else before we finish up? 

Natalia [00:17:57] No, this was really fun. 

Linzy [00:17:58] This was great. I feel like we almost got to the point so fast. But I’m excited for you and, for folks listening, Marissa Lawton, as I say, a colleague of a colleague, I hear great things. She’s got resources around exactly that. So I always say like the value and I mean Natalia. You’ve paid for my course and mastermind. You’ve paid for other people’s stuff. I think you and I both know the value of just like getting the right help. Right. Not trying to reinvent the wheel all by yourself. 

Natalia [00:18:25] Absolutely. And I want to say here publicly on the podcast, I would not have the kind of thriving, full, private practice that I do. I wholeheartedly believe if I had not taken their courses. Thanks for the mastermind. 

Linzy [00:18:42] I am so glad. Like, that’s very touching to hear. I’m so glad to hear it. And like you, you’ve accomplished incredible things and I’m so excited for you to now take that next step and package up into your course and just like expand, keep expanding your you’re doing amazing things. 

Natalia [00:18:57] If I could say before we got on, I found my journal that I started at the beginning of 2018 when I first started your beta course. 

Linzy [00:19:09] My very first round. Yep. 

Natalia [00:19:11] And I was going through all the questions and my fantasy of what it would be like when I have arrived. 

Linzy [00:19:17] Yes. 

Natalia [00:19:18] And one of them was I would only look at money – I forgot exactly what I said – maybe once a week or something like that. But now I’m only having to do that once a month. 

Linzy [00:19:30] Right. Because it’s all working. 

Natalia [00:19:32] It’s all working. The systems are in place. 

Linzy [00:19:35] That’s it. Yes. And I think that’s like I appreciate you you saying that, because I think that’s a misconception that people have as they think that once you’re more in touch with your money, it adds more and more work to your life and it becomes like it’s arduous forever. And what I’ve seen is like it is more work for a bit as you’re building systems, because systems take time and energy and if you have to clean up a mess from before, that takes work. But once you have your systems working and once you have your numbers set up so that they’re working ongoingly. It actually takes very little work to keep it up. 

Natalia [00:20:06] Yes. Yeah. I love that idea that maybe in five years because I think it’s been about five years since we first started talking that four or five years, maybe in four years I could have a class get her a course. Now it’s just going on my website because. 

Linzy [00:20:25] Yes, totally. 

Natalia [00:20:26] I love the idea of somebody waking up and seeing that two people signed up. 

Linzy [00:20:30] Oh, yes, it’s a good experience. I can tell you. It feels good. It feels good. And similarly, Natalia, I will say, it’s kind of like you build out the system. You know, this is how course courses work too. Right? You build out the system. At first it takes a lot of thought. You’re trying to package up all you know, you’re trying to figure out how to talk about it in a way that people understand what they’re buying. But again, once you do that and you set it up like, you know, you literally wake up to somebody having bought your course, right? Because all of these things that you’ve seeded out in the world, they’ve had enough experience of you that they’re like, Yeah, Natalia is the person who I’m going to, you know, who’s going to help me with my emotional eating. And they’ve bought while you were literally unconscious. It’s pretty good. 

Natalia [00:21:11] That that idea makes me light up. 

Linzy [00:21:12] Yes. Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Natalia, for joining me today. 

Natalia [00:21:17] Absolutely. Thank you. This was fun. 

Linzy [00:21:32] In my conversation today with Natalia, the energy shifted so quickly once we moved away from the idea of her hiring an associate. Because I know Natalia and she is a money skills grad and also did a mastermind with me a few years ago. I know that she’s tried before to hire an associate, so that’s kind of maybe part of what was happening on my side that led me so quickly to just gut check with her whether she really wants to hire an associate. I know that this is an idea she’s had for a while and she hasn’t moved on it. And I was really curious what the reason for that was. I think so often, as I mentioned in the episode, we get so many messages just to like just hire somebody, just hire somebody as though they’re just making it seem like that’s a very simple thing to do. And the reality is moving into group practice and having associate has a whole other list of responsibilities and roles that you’re going to be playing for that associate, even if it’s just one. If you really want to be having an employee who is supported and well cared for and wants to stick around. There’s work involved in that. So it’s important to ask yourself, is that the job you want to have? So often with expanding, we focus on, as Natalia mentioned, the money that’s being left on the table or the opportunity or the fact that this is what we’re being told to do and we don’t stop to think about, is this the job I actually want to have? Am I creating a job that I would want? And often when we ask ourselves that question, we’re going to get a gut response that gives us some good clues of the directions that we might actually want to lead when expanding. As soon as I shifted into suggesting the idea of a course to Natalia, her language change, she talked about feeling excited and happy, thinking about it. She immediately knew what her content would start to be like. You could see that immediately there was starting to be flow and possibility around it, which just did not exist around the idea of her hiring associate and had shown up when she had tried to hire an associate before and it had never really taken off. So if you’re in a similar situation to Natalia, I do encourage you to be curious and think about what are some other ways you might be able to expand what you’re offering to clients or different types of side hustles? Like Natalia mentioned, flipping books, that is distinctly not therapy. And sometimes it’s nice to to just do things that are income generating, that are not therapy, and those are all valid options and all valid ways to bring more money into your life and create more financial stability for your family. If you like what I do, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We are sharing free, practical and emotional money content there all the time. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would so appreciate if, like Eileen at the beginning of the podcast, you would jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. Let me know what you think about the podcast, what’s helpful about it? It helps other therapists to find the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. Thanks so much for listening today. 

Heidi [00:00:03] That also just clicked in my head of how, Oh if money can also be that support in my account and I can see it, that could be really helpful. Like knowing that it’s there to actually use, that money is to be used and then it flows back in. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode of the Money Skills For Therapists podcast is a coaching episode. My guest is Money Skills For Therapists graduate, Heidi Lindeman. Heidi is a therapist in private practice in Colorado who specializes in working with spiritual humans who want to move from self-doubt and suicidal thinking into self-worth, confidence, and freedom. She’s also a single mom by choice of a one year old, and that definitely factors into the conversation that Heidi and I have had today. So in our coaching episode today, Heidi brought forward this challenge that so many of us face, where she has started through some hard moves that she’s made in her practice, some big moves. She’s making more money than ever before. And yet somehow that money seems to be going away. She’s made some big purchases, and when she looks at her bank accounts, the amount of money that’s there is not what she wants to see, considering that she is making more money than ever before. My conversation with Heidi almost has two parts. At first, we really dug into some practical pieces around identifying goals and setting up systems for her to be able to actually save for goals, which when you start to have more money, it’s kind of this new level, new devil situation, right? Like you have to start to learn new skills to manage money. And so we get into some very practical pieces of how to save for goals and identify goals to make sure your money is going where you want it to go when there’s more of it around. Then in the second part of our conversation, Heidi and I really sunk into a more kind of emotional and meaning based conversation about what money needs to do for her in her life. What is the value of money? What are her real needs? And how can money help her meet those real needs as well as how can she meet those real needs in other ways so that it’s not all on money to have her needs met? So it’s quite an expansive conversation. We covered a lot of ground today. Really interesting conversation. Here is my coaching episode with Heidi Lindeman. So, Heidi, welcome to the podcast. 

Heidi [00:02:55] Thank you. I’m so excited. 

Linzy [00:02:57] I am also so excited. We were just chatting in advance. I feel like there’s 7000 things to talk about, but we’re going to dig in. We’re going to dig in today to what you wanted to bring to this coaching episode. So. Heidi, just to kind of frame it out for folks, you are a Money Skills For Therapists grad and you finished up in the course. Where are we at now? Like two months ago. Three months? 

Heidi [00:03:19] It was recently. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:03:20] Just a couple months ago. 

Heidi [00:03:23] January? February? I don’t even know. Time is weird. 

Linzy [00:03:26] Yeah. 

Heidi [00:03:27] So, recently. 

Linzy [00:03:27] Fairly recently, I think we could agree. Okay. Okay. So tell me, what did you want to work on today in our coaching episode? 

Heidi [00:03:37] So I really want to work on the growth that I have, but then to like- I spent a lot of money and I don’t think I really like, manage that well or maybe- I don’t know exactly what was happening there. So just for a little context, when I was in the program, the big thing that I was really working on was like, how do I get enough money just so I can pay my personal bills, my private practice bills, that was all working okay. It was that I wasn’t making enough money to buy groceries and, you know, pay for basic things. So there’s a lot of focus on that, raising fees and stuff like that that I did. And then. Oh, some fun news. So during the course, I raised my fees to 225 for new clients. In the last two-three weeks, recently, I’ve had conversations with people to raise my fee for current clients to 225. So everyone’s getting bumped up as of July 1st. So like it feels like things are going really well in that way. And then the last two months I would say I’ve had, as far as income coming in, it’s been really great and like enough to pay for my personal life and things like that. And it’s like, Oh, I can actually make myself a salary and here’s what the number is. And then there’s still extra money left over in my owners pay account, using profit first. Awesome. But then I was literally looking at my money this morning and was like, okay, I have $37 or something in my personal checking account and I overdraft. Crap. I was trying to stop doing that. And then my business account, the expenses are- it was lower than I wanted to see it because I bought some big things. So I bought a new desk and I bought a new chair. I bought this thing behind me, like, really just trying to set up my office space better. But then I had some big personal expenses as well. Like a home organizer? 

Linzy [00:05:38] Yes. 

Heidi [00:05:39] Was it necessary? No. 

Linzy [00:05:40] Yes. 

Heidi [00:05:40] Did I want it? Yes. Did I buy it? Hell yeah. But then I’m at this place of like it’s really it’s more my personal than my business. But my business pays my personal. So. 

Linzy [00:05:52] Yes. Okay. Yeah. 

Heidi [00:05:54] Eugh, money. 

Linzy [00:05:57] Money. Right. So deposit in this respect like I do. I do wanna reflect back to you. And I know you know this intellectually, but like, how much progress you’ve made in terms of that fee. Right. Like I remember when you came to Money Skills For Therapists, I think it was like literally on our very first call that you attended, that we ran your numbers with a tool that we have in the course and you identified like, okay, my fee has to go up based on like my needs. And you are, you have a child, your solo parent, so it’s all on your shoulders, right? So you identified this fee had to go up and you spent a lot of time that you were in Money Skills For Therapists you were working on that project, right, of like raising your fee for new clients. And that is hard and scary to have those conversations when you have more of a premium fee. And now what I’m hearing is like it’s starting to actually have effect. You are seeing more money than you saw before. There’s more money now because of that work that you did. 

Heidi [00:06:45] Yeah. Yeah. And I had – two weeks ago – ten clients, which is my ideal weekly. Like that’s the goal that I’ve been trying to get to. In the last couple of weeks it’s been nine clients. So I’m like… 

Linzy [00:06:54] You’re right there,. 

Heidi [00:06:55] Right at like where I want to be at ideally. Okay, things are working or should be working. 

Linzy [00:07:01] So I want to reflect back to you. This is like- this is what I would call like a a new level new devil program like problem I should say. So it’s like, before, your problem was like, okay, I need to raise my fee and I want to be working ten clients a week. And so you’re going through the fee raising and having those conversations and trying to find the right people and call in the right clients. And now you’ve gone through the work of like raising your fees with your existing clients and that’s rolling out and now you have more money coming in. But what I’m hearing is the money’s not necessarily staying around. 

Heidi [00:07:29] Yeah, particularly the last two months really has been the last two months where it’s there’s been a like feeling of relief, like I can breathe and I don’t have to worry about buying groceries. Like always goes back to buying groceries. Like I used to go to the food bank to get food and it’s like, Oh, I can just buy groceries. And I had my budget, I think set at like 450 or so for groceries, for my personal budget. And then I was just looking at the reports today, which I haven’t done until literally today, like, oh, I’m actually spending closer to like 500, 600, 650 on groceries. So there’s a. 

Linzy [00:08:08] Yeah, so you’re getting like a bit of an increase. So yeah, yeah. So let’s, let’s pull this apart a little bit more because what I’m hearing is like you’re seeing your grocery spend is going up at home. Are there other things you’ve made this big – I don’t know how big of an investment – you made this investment in having a personal organizer. 

Heidi [00:08:26] It was 2000 something. It was a big investment. 

Linzy [00:08:28] That’s a chunk. 

Heidi [00:08:28] Yeah. Okay. 

Linzy [00:08:29] Yeah. Okay. So you’re that you bought a nicer chair. You bought a nicer desk, you bought what you were referring to behind you was like this really beautiful screen, you know, to, like, screen off your space. So it sounds like you’ve been making some purchases that you just wouldn’t have been able to make before. 

Heidi [00:08:44] Yeah, yeah. And they’re- I mean, those ones are I know that they’re like one time kind of purchases. Like, I’m not going to buy a desk every month. And I’m not going to pay for an organizer every month. It’s like I paid her entire fee up front. So like she works with me for- 

Linzy [00:08:58] Yes, so that’s it. 

Heidi [00:08:58] A while. Yeah, but there was part of like how this is something I’ve grappled with for a long time. Like, how do I know when I have enough money for something? So like how I buy bigger things- and some of them don’t feel bigger. Like this thing behind the screen behind me was like $70 or $90 or something. It’s not a huge purchase. No, the desk was like 300 or something. 

Linzy [00:09:20] Yeah, okay. 

Heidi [00:09:21] The chair I think was like 70 or 80. It’s like they’re not huge. Huge. But no, like altogether it it adds up. It adds up. 

Linzy [00:09:29] Yes. Okay. 

Heidi [00:09:29] But like, how to know when do I have enough money to actually do that? And I tried to track it. I used You Need A Budget and like I was looking at it now, like there was enough money in my operating expenses to spend it to like buy something. But then when the number is so low, when I get down to like – I don’t know what it was – a couple hundred dollars sitting in there in my account, it makes me really nervous and I’m like, I have to have more in there because I feel like it’s too low. And yeah, and I’m like, Oh, crap, I overspent now. I should never buy anything, ever. 

Linzy [00:10:01] Yes. Yeah. It makes you swing between extremes when you don’t have clarity on- okay. So yeah, so let’s zero in on this part first. So in terms of your operating expenses, so you’re using profit first. So for folks listening, Heidi is using profit first. So your specific kind of bucket of money, that’s for operating expenses, which is the money that it costs to run your business. Right. So the desk and the chair and the screen that you bought would have come out of operating expenses, as do any courses that you buy. You know, so that’s the bucket of money you’re referring to. So with that, it is helpful to work towards having a buffer in it. That’s an actual number that you know when you’ve reached it. So you can be done, right. So what I’m hearing is, for you, you know that this couple of hundred dollars that you’re at, you’re like, this is too low. That’s not enough money sitting there. So the general recommended buffer, Heidi, is is two months. Right. So having enough money in there to pay for two months of like regular operating expenses, do you know how much money that would be for you to get towards a two month buffer? 

Heidi [00:10:56] My expenses are somewhere around 800 or so a month. 

Linzy [00:11:01] Okay. So in your case, then, 1600 would be like two full months ahead on operating expenses. 

Heidi [00:11:08] But when I have that much money in there, like I have so much money, I can do whatever I want. 

Linzy [00:11:13] Yes. Yes, okay. 

Heidi [00:11:14] So there’s that. There’s also the other – just to throw in another little thing in here – is I started saving for another maternity leave for another baby. And that was also one of my goals. And it’s so cool to actually have started that. And I used a lot of my tax refund money, so there’s actually like $5,000 in it. So like, I have this really- like I can actually set myself up to have a kid when I want to. But then I forget about, Oh, wait, I also need to have that extra money in my operating expenses because the mat leave or the money for that is just to, like, pay my salary. 

Linzy [00:11:47] Yes. Yeah. You’ll still need to pay any recurring expenses for your business. 

Heidi [00:11:52] So then I need like, I don’t know. Do I need five months saved up or- 

Linzy [00:11:56] Yes, yes. This is like kind of a new level that you get to start to build into your your systems, Heidi, which is starting to get clear on like what are those goals, right? And what are those numbers so that you can actually make a plan to get there and so you know when you’ve gotten there, too. Right. So like with your operating expense number, for instance, what I’m hearing is because you haven’t been planning on a specific buffer number, when you get up more around 1600, there’s almost this part of you that’s like spend it like maybe you spender part of yourself comes out. Is that do I understand that? 

Heidi [00:12:27] I mean, it might be a spending part, but it’s more of a like, oh, I can be relieved in like, ha, I have money for whatever I want. I don’t have to stress about it. And because I’m not stressing about it or like focused on it. Then I end up spending it. 

Linzy [00:12:40] Yes. 

Heidi [00:12:41] If I look, I’m like, oh, I’ve got money, I can whatever. Go buy something that’s not budgeted for. That’s what tends to happen. 

Linzy [00:12:48] So if we think about like this piece of the puzzle of kind of having a bit of an operating expense buffer builds up. So, you know, when it’s enough for you, how much money would you want to see there? Let’s think about just your normal one even before mat leave. Right? Because let’s almost think about mat leave as a separate project. Just for your normal standard, there’s a there’s a buffer there just in case, for some reason you don’t work for a month or two. How much money do you want to see there for yourself knowing your practice? 

Heidi [00:13:14] The first number that came into my head is really low, so I think it’s an interesting things like at first I’m like I want to have at least $500 in there all the time. That feels like. If it- when it drops below the 500, there’s a little bit of like, ooh, is it going to be okay? When it’s at 500, I’m like, I know more money is going to be in there in a week or whatever, because I do my money stuff every week. So I guess I’m always going to have what I need in there, but I think it would be better for me to have it higher. To have it more like 1600 by two- two months. Because that might also then give me more relief in like knowing I can take vacation. That’s also a thing. I’m just going to work forever. Even though I haven’t planned with my fee to have vacation, it hasn’t quite clicked. Like, how do I actually do that? 

Linzy [00:14:06] Yes. Yeah, yeah. And we can jump on that part in a minute. That’s a whole other conversation. And I can also guide you back to the resources in the course. Now that you have more money coming in, you’re going to be able to add some elements that are built into money skills, but at the time wouldn’t have been so relevant for you. But yeah, so what I’m hearing is like intellectually, you know, that getting more around like a 1600 dollar mark makes sense. That would give you a buffer in case there’s times that you’re not working because if you’re not making money, you know, you still need to pay for your clinic management software and any kind of recurring expenses. So for you, Heidi, to make that concrete and real, how would you set that up in your systems as like a goal to work towards? How do you specifically save towards goals. 

Heidi [00:14:47] Randomly, random? You know, it’s not actually randomly. So I have, I’ve been trying to do things and then getting into places like this and then feeling like it was for no reason or doesn’t matter. So like I have a- 

Linzy [00:15:03] Yes. 

Heidi [00:15:04] Line item on my- only on my one personal checking account, like a buffer line on a budget and I put money in there. But then this month I was like, well, I have $34. So like, let’s take that money out. 

Linzy [00:15:17] Yes. 

Heidi [00:15:17] It’s not there anymore. 

Linzy [00:15:19] Yes. 

Heidi [00:15:19] So like I want to use you need a budget to try to to build it in. But the buffer line just feels weird to me because You Need A Budget- sometimes I get confused if it, so like if I put money in a like a buffer line or a buffer expense, I don’t know, whatever. If it pulls forward to the next month because then I’m like always trying to assess do I have enough money and do I have – not do I have enough money, but is it accurate? Is what You Need A Budget is saying accurate to what’s actually in my bank account. 

Linzy [00:15:48] Right. 

Heidi [00:15:49] And then constantly like making the profit numbers match my bank account. I mean, when there’s money assigned to future months, it makes it feels like it makes it weird or if there’s- 

Linzy [00:16:01] Yeah, yes. 

Heidi [00:16:03] So I get really confused. So then having the buffer line makes it really hard. So like I think I need a different system because it’s just mind confusing, boggling. 

Linzy [00:16:13] Yeah! And this is part of it, right. Is like how do you make it tangible and clear for you, so that you can set a goal and you can see when you’re on track for it and you can know when you’ve reached it and when you no longer need to be working on that goal. Right. I’m hearing separate, separate bank accounts you already have in place with that, something they’ll be helpful for, for not just this goal, but other goals that you’re thinking about because you’re kind of like you’re moving into a different stage of your finances. Heidi, I think is is part of what’s happening. Right? Like I said, new level, new devil, where it’s like now you actually like have some money that you can push forward into the future or that you can earmark for certain goals. That has not been your situation. Right? So this is kind of like- now your systems need to adapt to the fact that you’re making more money and you get to do more things with that money. 

Heidi [00:16:56] Like you mean creating a separate bank account for like the buffer? Like having a buffer account? 

Linzy [00:17:02] Yeah, that would be an option. That’s thinking about like what would make your brain happy? 

Heidi [00:17:07] That’s a one that feels very clear and it’s direct and it’s like. And then I use a spreadsheet to figure out my- how much to put into each account. 

Linzy [00:17:15] Yes. Your profit first. Yeah. 

Heidi [00:17:16] Yeah. Then I could just, like, add that to that and just pick a percentage and then it keeps going until we get to… 

Linzy [00:17:25] Exactly. And then you’ll see – because it’s a separate bank account – you’re going to see when there’s $600 there. And then, you know, that goal is complete, that money is there. And then in the future, if you take vacation and you find that your OpEx is a little low that month because you’ve earned less, because you’ve been away, then you know that exactly what that OpEx buffer is for and you get to like draw that 100 bucks over to fill it back up and then you can replenish it again. So it gives you a very distinct pool of money over there to know when you have enough of that buffer, like when your buffer is complete. 

Heidi [00:17:57] Right. Yeah. No, I like that. I just then have to be okay with I mean, I move money all round all the time, but there’s sometimes when like I put money in a certain account and feel like I can’t ever touch it. I think that’s more like my personal savings or my like a joint family savings account I have, my mom told me it’s my money and I’m like, it’s not my money. So there’s, like, just $2,000 that sits there for if I end up with a $0, then I can use it. 

Linzy [00:18:26] That’s your role for yourself, which is probably not your mom’s role for it, I wouldn’t guess. 

Heidi [00:18:31] It’s not. But like, I create these weird rules. I like being able to actually move it or like knowing maybe it’s not move it, but like more specifically knowing when do I move? It’s like, at what point of my expense account, when it gets below, like what number do I then use the buffer. 

Linzy [00:18:53] And that’s something that like you can think through and decide, right. Like I’m hearing for you, emotionally, $500 has meaning. Right. So maybe it’s that you plan to have $500 sitting in that OpEx account and like there’s like kind of like OpEx you about account does its own thing. You’re going to fill it up, you’re going to pay out of it. But on months where you earn less because you’re working less, you’re away. Then if you see it dip below that 500, you can fill it up, you know, from your OpEx buffer account. And like part of it is like, as you say, Heidi, being really clear on when are you allowed to use that money. Because sometimes what can happen when we have more of like an anxious or scarcity relationship to money is that we can almost like hoard it. Like it’s like we put it away and then we’re like, I’m not allowed to touch it. I’m never allowed to touch it. Even if I’m in the hospital, I can’t touch it. And I’ve seen people do this that it’s like we need to make sure that we set clarity and intention around those buckets of money so it’s clear like it’s there to support you, right? It’s there to make your life better. 

Heidi [00:19:46] Yeah. Yeah. I definitely have a little bit of that. A little bit of the like, Yeah, I would might be the person who ends up in the hospital and I’m like, I have to see a client because I don’t have any money. Yeah, I have $1600 sitting over there and. 

Linzy [00:19:58] There’s $2,000 from your mom over here, too. Yeah. 

Heidi [00:20:01] Actually, there is money somewhere, so. 

Linzy [00:20:03] Yes. And that’s you know, that is something to be curious about. And I think this kind of also comes back to, you know, your bigger piece that we started with is, are you able to accept money into your life as something that makes your life better? 

Heidi [00:20:17] That’s a good question. Mm hmm. I want to intellectually say, well, of course,. 

Linzy [00:20:21] Yes. Logically. 

Heidi [00:20:23] But then I have this like hesitation or the like, oh, can I? Am I actually open enough to allow money to flow in to actually support me? And I don’t know that I have an answer for that. Yeah, it’s a really I don’t know. 

Linzy [00:20:36] Because something that I notice thinking about kind of what you described at the beginning of this situation where it’s like you have literally been in a place where you have not been able to pay for all your groceries. Right. You have like used food bank resources to live, to eat. Right. Yes. And so now because of these moves that you made in your business, which have been hard moves to make. Right. And which have taken work and like there’s been like I want to, again, just like recognize and validate the work that you’ve done to get where you are. Right? Because it has been hard, but now you are starting to see the impact of that and there’s more money and as you say, like you actually have money left in your business account now. Right. And what I’m hearing is there’s relief there. And you have acquired some things that you just like would not have been able to acquire before. Right. Like a nicer workspace for yourself? Yeah. Getting help. Having help of somebody to come in and, like, create more order in your life, like with a professional organizer. And, you know, something that I wonder is like, can that be okay? 

Heidi [00:21:33] I think it’s okay. Like, I’m growing in the direction of it being okay, but also just noticing, I don’t even notice, but like a quick snap back or this like flashback or quick like, yeah, well I want it to be okay, but I also feel like I’m stuck in this other place if I don’t have enough money anymore because I spent. Because I bought these big things. 

Linzy [00:21:57] Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Heidi [00:21:58] All of them together. And they bought them all really close to each other. So like I don’t know why I did that. 

Linzy [00:22:04] Yeah. 

Heidi [00:22:04] Well, in, like, a week, I was like, I want new stuff in my life. I can’t handle this, like- 

Linzy [00:22:09] Yeah! Okay. There you go. So that that is my question. So why did you do that? Why did you buy all these things within a week from each other to, like, dig even more? What compelled you to do that? 

Heidi [00:22:17] Let’s see. So I went to the store to get a new chair because my back has just been so messed up because the chair is just terrible. So, like, I actually wanted to support myself in a chair that- 

Linzy [00:22:31] Physically. Yes, support yourself. 

Heidi [00:22:31] Works my works for my body. It helps my spine. Yes. It’s like that’s the whole intention I went to the store. I had no intention of buying a desk. And when I was there, I just found a really cool desk. And I was like, oh, that’s really cool. And I had budgeted for the actual chair. So I felt like I was doing great with actually budgeting because I haven’t budgeted for things like that before in my life. When I want something, I just buy it if I have money. Right. Not thinking about the impacts that that might have later on of like, oh, you have to pay rent in a couple of weeks too. 

Linzy [00:23:02] What that money was for, I guess. 

Heidi [00:23:04] But then somehow it ended up into- so sitting in all the chairs, looking at the chairs, and then it’s like, Oh, I really like the desk. And then because the desk is a bigger desk than my other one, it kind of really only fits in one place, which is then why that the screen came in, right? Behind there, there’s kids toys and. 

Linzy [00:23:21] Yeah, I understand. Yes.

Heidi [00:23:22] Right. Maybe don’t need to be seeing the kid’s toy like it could be distracting. Like, let’s have a calm environment. And then the person organizing literally just came because I was watching too many organizing shows, and it was like, I want to be on that show. Then it’s like, oh, there’s maybe people who live closer by. As I’m just looking at mess around my house. So that felt like a very emotional purchase. 

Linzy [00:23:47] And with these purchases, Heidi, what’s the need that you were trying to meet? 

Heidi [00:23:53] I want to be comfortable. That’s what comes up first. It’s like, I just want comfort. I just want ease. I just want it to work well or to flow. I definitely want things different in my life. There’s like a, if I buy new things, maybe that will make my feelings be different. Maybe I don’t have to be sick all the time. I mean, this isn’t logical, but like having a kid, you’re sick all the time. You feel like crap all the time. But I just want to not feel like crap. Like, what can I do to not feel crappy? Right. If I had a clean environment, that might help it. It’s really hard to keep it up. As a single mom. 

Linzy [00:24:27] Absolutely. Yes. 

Heidi [00:24:29] Like if I had a better organizational system, it might help. Just like relieve some of the pressure, some of the anxiety or some of the, like, constant Ugh that I live in. That’s the best I got. Something like that. 

Linzy [00:24:41] Yeah. And I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, like another word that I heard, like where you start with the chair is like support. You know, you need more support. Right. And sounds like you’re you’re needing more support. You’re needing a little bit more order. You’re needing support in terms of having somebody come in and help you to create some more order in your life and like, you know, I will I will reflect to you, Heidi, like you’re a solo parent that’s- you’ve been a solo parent from the very beginning. This is your experience in parenthood. I will tell you that my partner and I, as two people parenting, look at each other all the time and are like solo parents are fucking incredible. Parenting with two adults to one child is hard enough. Right. And so I want to reflect that to you. Like it makes a lot of sense that at this point in your life you are seeking like support and and order and organization because it’s a very messy, demanding, germy, sicky, tears and not-a-lot-of-sleep time of life. 

Heidi [00:25:32] Yeah. And I’m crazy enough to be like. And I’m doing it again soon. 

Linzy [00:25:36] Pronto. 

Heidi [00:25:38] You know? Whatever. 

Linzy [00:25:39] I know biology is incredible, but. Yeah, so, like, reflecting that back at you, I mean. 

Heidi [00:25:44] That also just clicked in my head of how I, with money, can also be that support in my account and I can see it. That could be really helpful. Like knowing that it’s there to actually use. That money is to be used and then it flows back in. That’s another like- I know I have like 18 million things, but when I- so I’ve been- I had to take some out of my savings account like a significant amount. So now I only have like $400 or $500 in there, which I don’t like that number, I would rather have like at least 1500 in my savings account. Sure. Yeah. So, like, that number is low. So like, my plan is like, I’m going to be refilling that to get that back up to where I need it to be. And it actually should probably be much higher than that. It should be. That’s just my comfortable number. It should just be three months or two months of expenses, which is like ideally, like $10,000. Like, I don’t know how you ever have this much money. I don’t know how you can get there, but like not even really knowing how to start building those buffers or how to start building that back in. Like when I do take from one place to pay bills. Yeah. And both accounts are low, so it feels like the priority needs to be the checking account or like the OpEx account before additional stuff. But then it feels like I’m going to be putting like $30 in these additional accounts and it’s like it’s going to take forever. 

Linzy [00:27:06] Yes. And this is where I think getting a sense of your priorities and how these things kind of fit together. Right. Because it I think that especially given your situation where like you are the person bringing money into the household, right. If you’re not sending money home, money is not appearing. That like, this is it. So, you know, going back to that piece of like money supporting you, is your money really supporting you? If you’re prioritizing so much, getting two months ahead in your business budget, that you’re, you know, not eating well or feeling deprived at home? Probably not. So, I mean, this is something to think about, maybe coming back to this piece of identifying that like you’re looking for support and order, and like what you are looking for your money to bring into your life. Once you’re clear that this is what you need at this stage of life, because it’s also chapters, right? In different chapters of our life, like money, it has different potential and possibilities for us. But when you’re really clear on what’s important to you right now, then you can make a plan from that place of understanding how your money serves you best, right? So if you know that it’s about what what word – if we’re going to synthesize the words down into like one idea – what is the most valuable thing that money can be doing for you in your life right now, Heidi? 

Heidi [00:28:12] There’s two words that, I mean, that come up. It’s the support and nourish. 

Linzy [00:28:16] So support and nourish, right? So coming from that place, thinking about, okay, how can your money that you’re earning more and you’re building up more of that income, how can that money be really supporting and nourishing you in your different needs and then making a plan for the money to reach that? Right. So like that’s the emotional piece is looking at how can money support and nourish you. And then you get to make a budgetary plan, a numbers plan for how you prioritize these things when money does show up, right? So when money comes into your world, what are the basic goals you want to be hitting? Like how much goes to maternity leave every month? You know, how important is that compared to what’s the number that you want to make sure you hit in your groceries every month. Because I know groceries are such an important thing and you have experienced not being able to buy the groceries that really nourish you, right? So groceries and then replenishing your OpEx, you know, buffer is is part of it. But that should never take precedence over you actually being well. Right. Because you’re the machine that makes all of this happen. If you’re not well, none of this is going to happen. 

Heidi [00:29:16] That’s helpful. Thank you for saying that, because I totally would be the person who would be like, well, the goal is to build the the buffer. So like I have to build the buffer, which means the only place I could take it from is my pay. 

Linzy [00:29:28] Yes. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Don’t do that. The purpose of your business is to support you in being well and allow you to thrive so that you can be a fucking amazing therapist who changes people’s lives. Right? Like there’s a loop there. And if we cut it off, and if we don’t let our business like let money flow into our life, and if we don’t let ourselves be well, and if we don’t let ourselves thrive, then we’re actually, like, starving the business, right? Because we’re starting to decrease our ability to, like, show up and be our best and be creative and increase our impact and call our people and all of the things that need to happen to keep that money flowing and to keep those clients being served. 

Heidi [00:30:04] Right. Right. Yeah, I have a very big narrative that is not just about money, but about so much other stuff. Talking to my therapist about it a little bit today, but I thought of like, there’s never going to be enough. There’s never going to be enough to meet my needs specifically. So like. There’s not enough time to meet my needs. There’s not enough money. So it’s like if I really was going to be nourished, what that might look like is that if I go to the chiropractor and I’ve been trying to budget for going every other week, so going two times a month, but I actually need to be going every week because when I don’t go every week, it’s problems. Like she’s like you need to come every week, at least for right now. That increases that bill. Then there’s other dreams. Like it would be great to also get a massage regularly. I did have one recently, but the one before that was like six months ago. 

Linzy [00:30:57] Yes, yes, yes. 

Heidi [00:30:58] It’s like it’s a full extra thing right now. Like, so like there’s those kinds of things and then the like the grocery bill just seems to keep getting bigger. And I don’t understand how. And I, I want to eat really healthy and well food, but I honestly don’t have energy for it. So, like, I’m buying Amy’s frozen dinners cuz it’s like what can I microwave and fast? 

Linzy [00:31:20] Yeah. Yep, for sure. And I mean something that- it’s risen in my mind that may or may not resonate with you. But this idea of maybe like creating like Heidi’s nourishment plan and it’s like writing out for the month. These are all the things that can nourish me. Right. And then looking at the money that you have and it’s a budget, in a sense, but it’s from that perspective of how do you get fed physically, how do you have your pain cared for, you know, like physically, how are you nourished, your food. And starting to think about how do you distribute this money that you’ve generated through your gifts? How do you distribute that to kind of get the the most potential out of it, knowing that not everything might be able to happen right now, but thinking about how can it have the most impact for you where it is right now, which also gives you the potential to grow your impact later as you have the potential to grow your business more or have different types of offers or whatever you want to do. What do you think about that, that idea of kind of approaching it that way and being curious about your numbers that way? 

Heidi [00:32:21] I really love that. I actually did a whole big Phew in my head, like, not just my numbers, but like nourish my life. And what is that? And like, some of those things are going to have financial costs like groceries and the chiropractor and massages and whatever. But some of them aren’t. Like hanging out with my friends, my mom friends, hanging out with some friends who maybe don’t have kids, going for a cup of coffee with somebody who I really enjoy, that has a small impact, $5 or whatever. 

Linzy [00:32:53] Yeah, exactly. But emotionally, it might have quite a large impact in terms of nourishing you. 

Heidi [00:32:57] Yeah. Like that. There’s other things I could do that could also go into some of my- like the organizing thing I’m doing is like wanting to create a little space for me, a little sacred space a little- a chair where I can read and journal. That’s like, this is my space to recharge and I so desperately need that as I like- I’m about to tear up just thinking about it like. 

Linzy [00:33:18] Absolutely. 

Heidi [00:33:18] Yes. Oh, yeah. We need more nourishing, so much more in my life. If my money can support that, that would be like ideal. And that it actually can if I just think my way through it. 

Linzy [00:33:32] Yeah exactly. And I think when you take that lens with it too, like if you spend time to be actively thinking about nourishment and noticing nourishment, it also deepens the experience that you have of it. When you do have that coffee with that friend, knowing that you’re like, okay, this is my chance to connect. This is my chance to say the things I haven’t been able to say or catch up or whatever certain friends give to you. I think also when we’re more present with those experiences, they’re more impactful, right? Like they fill us up more when we let ourselves like really drink in what it is that we need from them. And then in some ways we end up needing to spend less money because we’re more filled up and we’re doing less of that, like fast spending to just like relieve pain. Because I notice myself, at least, even though I consider myself like an ambivalent, I’m like in the middle of the spectrum when we see friends on an evening, even during the week, if I’m like so tired and I drag myself and we see friends, the next morning, even if I’ve slept less, I’m more energetic, I’m more creative, I’m more able to do things. Like it actually creates energy, which decreases my need to like buy a drink out, grab pizza for dinner because I’m like, God, I can’t. Right. Like, it actually saves you money to be more fulfilled. 

Heidi [00:34:40] That’s so true. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I meditated the other day after having a really, really tough morning with my kiddo, so I was just, like, about to fall apart. Sat down, I was like, I’m going to sit down and just check in with myself. I did that and my entire day shifted, and I was like, I’m okay. Yeah, I’m good. I actually felt more nourished. 

Linzy [00:34:59] Yes. So I mean, there’s 75 other things we could talk about, but I’m going to start drawing us towards wrapping up. So, you know, Heidi, coming into the end of our conversation today, what sticks out for you? What are you taking away? 

Heidi [00:35:13] Well, I think there’s a couple of things. Is one that like looking at the things that I need to nourish, like I actually want to write them down and like put it on a little tool, almost like a little vision board or something. Nourishing things. And like let that also be a creative, nourishing thing to think about it because I feel some creative energy around that. And then also to work on building buffers for my operating expenses so that I have money to draw on when I get to a place where I might want to buy something a little bit bigger. And that it can be there and it doesn’t have to be so unknown of, Do I have enough money? Or because I operate like almost too close to like a budgeted like- so I know exactly like every single thing that’s going to come out of that month. And so I have my operating expenses are like $50 more than that. It’s like I’m operating really close to. 

Linzy [00:36:09] All very tight. 

Heidi [00:36:10] Yes. Yeah. What needs to be in there? So, like, to increase that in a different space that I really know what I have, I think that would be helpful. The nourishing one is definitely like I think overall a bigger emotional impact, which might help to get to that other goal. 

Linzy [00:36:26] Yeah. Because it makes you think about, I mean it makes a lot of sense to me that you are seeking nourishment so much. And I think we can see that by like when you had the opportunity, you’re like, there’s these things I’ve been needing and I just need to like have order and I need to have support and I need to have a chair that doesn’t hurt my body. Right? There’s this need there. And then also, though, as we start to actually fulfill that real need, which is the need to be fed, which money helps us with, and money makes possible, but money isn’t the only way that that happens. Then from there you can start to be more intentional, more planful about how you want to start to work towards these other other important goals and you know, take some paid time off too, which, check out Money Skills module five for that by the way, the paycheck and time off, go back and dig into that now that there’s more money to play with. 

Heidi [00:37:08] Yeah, definitely need it come holidays because I’m not in daycare and well, I have to be her mom. 

Linzy [00:37:14] Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. So thank you so much, Heidi, for coming. And talking with me today. 

Heidi [00:37:22] Thank you so much. This was lovely. 

Linzy [00:37:36] In my conversation today with Heidi, it felt like when we got to the point of sinking into talking about why she was spending this money, that we really got into the root of it. And I think that’s such a good question for all of us to ask ourselves when we notice certain behaviors coming up around money, like spending a lot of money or not spending money is asking yourself like, what is the need that I’m trying to meet here? There are so many ways that money can help us meet our needs. And in Heidi’s case, it was this need for nourishment. You know, money literally can be turned into food that nourishes your body, right? It can be turned into health care that takes care of your body. So there is all these ways that money can help us meet our real needs, and yet also our needs can be met in other ways that are not just about money. And we don’t need to rely on money to meet all of those needs. So that example that she gave of like having coffee with a friend might cost her $5, but the impact of that on her need to be nourished is going to be quite great by probably a lot more than, you know, your average $5. So when we can start to really identify what our real needs are and a lot of ways it gives us so much more depth in our experience of money, because when we are meeting our needs with money, we can really let ourselves take in and notice that our needs are being met. And also it was through our efforts, you know, and the work that we did in the world that allowed us to earn the money to meet these needs. That’s a really beautiful way of receiving kind of the fruits of your labor. But it does also mean that you can identify other ways that those needs do need to be met so that we don’t throw money at needs that that money will not solve. Right. And that’s so often the case that we are feeling lonely or unloved or not good enough. And so we spend money in ways that maybe gives us like a quick dopamine hit, like buying some beautiful thing. And it does make you feel good for, you know, when you first order it and maybe when it first arrives, but it very quickly it stops having impact and we can spend hundreds or thousands of dollars trying to get our needs met. That way, when we really identify our true needs, it does just give us so much more opportunity for mastery or intention with money, because then we’re attending to what really needs attention rather than kind of throwing money at things that maybe money can’t always help us solve. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We are posting free practical and emotional money content on there all the time. I always say free. Of course, you know Instagram is free, but it feels important to mention that. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please head over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. I’ve said it so many times, but it remains true. It is the best way for other therapists who would benefit from these conversations to find me. Thanks for listening today. 

Maegan [00:00:02] I’m just imagining, like, a woven tapestry, right? Where it’s like these two chapters of your life are woven together. And I think there’s power in using your private practice as this beautiful vessel that is basically funding you exploring who you’re becoming in your life. Like, how cool is that that you get to fund your own personal exploration? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode is a special one for me. I brought back my friend Maegan. Maegan’s in to talk about a topic that was actually requested by one of our listeners, which was How do you know when it’s time to stop being a therapist and do something else? So Maegan and I have both gone through the process of closing down our therapy practices with, as she mentions, much therapy and also in my case, a lot of tears, probably a lot of tears in her case, too. I feel like that’s a safe assumption. And today we talk about how we knew it was time for us personally to shut down our therapy practices. We talk about the distinction between burnout and the actual kind of innate knowledge, the intuition, that you should stop being a therapist. Because I think so many times burnout can kind of masquerade as we’re done in this profession, which when really we need to change some other things and take a break and recover. And we get into some steps that if you are starting to suspect that you want to retire from therapy one day, things that you can start to do today, before you get too far into burnout or resentment, to allow you to start building out other possibilities for yourself beyond being a therapist. I’m so excited to share this episode with you today. Here’s my conversation with Maegan. Megginson. So Maegan, welcome back to the podcast. 

Maegan [00:02:31] Linzy I’m so happy to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:33] I’m always happy to be with you. So I brought you back. I mean, we could talk about probably 20 different things, but specifically, I brought you back today to talk about a question that came. We kind of polled listeners as to what they would like to hear on the podcast. And we got this question of when do you know it’s time to stop being a therapist? And time to move on and do something else instead. And I thought, who better to talk to than you? 

Maegan [00:03:02] The one and only, no longer a therapist, Maegan Megginson. 

Linzy [00:03:06] Precisely. Precisely. So the first thing I thought we could maybe dig into is, why do you think this is a question that circulates? Because I don’t think the person who asked is the only therapist listening who has this question in the back of their mind. Why do you think it’s so common that therapists are sometimes thinking or wondering when our escape time should be? 

Maegan [00:03:27] You’re right. I think most therapists in my stratosphere, at least therapists that I work with in my coaching programs, are all really sitting in a kind of just imagining, like being in the middle of a hurricane, you know? And there’s just all of these like thoughts and questions swirling around you. And one of the big ones is, Can I do this forever? Do I want to do this forever? Why am I doing this right now? You know, it’s one of many questions, but it’s one of the most profound because it’s so connected to our identity. Right. Becoming a therapist and being a therapist for most of us is like in the top three parts of our identity that we show to the world. So why do I think people are really thinking about this question? I think we can look at it from two angles. Sometimes I think people are just burnt out. 

Linzy [00:04:17] Yes. 

Maegan [00:04:17] And I we’ll talk about this more today. But I think people are burnt out and they don’t know that there is another way that they can do their work that is more sustainable and fulfilling. So they default to, I guess my only option is to burn the therapy license and get a job at Starbucks. So sometimes there’s like black and white thinking that really is about burnout and not about the work. And then there are those of us who, what we’re actually experiencing is a fundamental shift in our identity. Many of us became therapists really early in our lives as adults. You know, we might even, for me, you know, went straight to college, straight to grad school, straight to becoming a therapist. Maybe there were a few years sprinkled in where you did something else. But for all intents and purposes, when you become a therapist in your twenties, your late twenties, you’re going to change, like you were going to evolve as a person. And I think what happens for many of us is that we do our own healing and we begin to see that there is actually a life for us outside of being a receiver of other people’s emotional information, as we’ve likely been doing that from early childhood. And we recognize like, I’m ready for something new, I’m ready for a new chapter in my own development. And that, I think, is when the conversation about retirement and switching career paths is really fruitful. But those are the two kind of ends of the spectrum that I hold in my mind. Is it really burn out? Or is this a developmental transition and it’s time for you to try on something new? 

Linzy [00:05:54] Because when we’re burnt out, it’s easy to have the escape fantasy of like life would be easier if X-Y-Z. I used to have the Bookkeeper Body Piercer. That was my dual like burnout plan. I was like, This is like more – this is kind of going back ten years when I first started therapy and I was like, When I burn out – it wasn’t if – it’s like when I can’t do this anymore because I feel like I saw the end from the very beginning, for myself, that was my original fantasy. It was kind of like, I’ll be a body piercer and a bookkeeper. And then at some point I was like, I’ll do financial therapy. Like I was already eyeing multiple exits from the beginning, I think, because I felt the burnout-ness already from the start that’s kind of baked into the profession, right? 

Maegan [00:06:34] Or there was a deep inner knowing, an intuitive part of you that was like, Hey, this isn’t going to sustain you forever. Both are true. I think we know how exhausting it is, and intuitively we know it’s probably not the thing we’re going to do for literally the rest of our lives. 

Linzy [00:06:51] Yes. And I think, you know, I wonder if we get a bit of like a distorted perspective around how many therapists feel this way, because we work with folks who tend to be, like more ambitious, want to be more empowered. You work with folks who are already taking steps towards building something else. So I wonder, almost like representationally, if we actually get an accurate representation of how common this is. Because I know there are definitely therapists who are like 30 years in, love it, still love to work every day. Like, there are certainly folks who are like made for this. And I think no amount of healing would change the fact that this is like what they want to do. But then there’s other folks like us who – I remember at one point very clearly saying when you and I were at a retreat a few years ago, that I feel like I’m healing my way out of being a therapist. It’s like I could see that the healthier that I get, the less the work was fulfilling me and the more I was feeling the hard parts of the work through that healing. 

Maegan [00:07:44] I mean, there’s definitely a confirmation bias element to this conversation, right? Like where we’re looking around and seeing the other people who are going through something similar. But I think we can – I imagine this is true for almost any profession, that there are some people who land on the right profession early in their life and are deeply satisfied on a social level for 30 or 40 years. And then there are people who start, you know, start in one direction and and need to pivot and transition. I think what’s maybe different about this industry in particular is the over identification with profession as who I am, profession as identity. I am a therapist. I think it’s harder for therapists to pivot and change course professionally than it is – I think about when my husband Jonathan decided he didn’t want to be a chemical engineer anymore. There was no like deep soul searching around, you know, there was no push back. There was no judgment from other engineers that he no longer wanted to be an engineer because it wasn’t as internalized a part of his identity as – there’s some enmeshment here, I think, that makes it hard for us to explore. 

Linzy [00:08:56] I completely agree. And when you said earlier that often therapist is like one of their top three identities, I feel like it was my top. It was my number one. Like I feel like I could not go to a party and not immediately be like, I’m a therapist. 

Maegan [00:09:09] That’s right. It was my number one. 

Linzy [00:09:10] Yeah. Like and I think that there’s a lot to that. I think that that enmeshment in terms of us being so attached to identity, I think has a lot to do with being helpers and maybe some of the wounds that that helper-ness is connected to. 

Maegan [00:09:24] Yeah, because really, I’ve been a therapist since I was four. 

Linzy [00:09:26] Yeah. Yeah. 

Maegan [00:09:27] You know, so it’s like. 

Linzy [00:09:28] Yeah, twelve was the first time I had a friend be like, you’re my therapist. I was like, Oh, no, I took a long time to get paid after that too. Right. And so, yeah. And so like there is that old deep stuff of like, this is how I’m helpful, this is how I count, this is how I’m safe, this is how I am accepted is when I’m helpful and I listen and I’m of service to others. 

Maegan [00:09:47] So of course, it’s really it’s really terrifying to intentionally step away from that, or it was for me. I mean, that was my- I probably spent close to two years with my therapist, like, am I a therapist? Am I not a therapist? And I know she was bored as shit with me by the end because she was like, Maegan, like, you know, get off the pot already. You know what you want to do, right? It was the hardest decision I have made in my life. 

Linzy [00:10:11] Mm hmm. So for you, then, I’m curious. How did you know it was time to close off that part of your career and, like, close off that identity and stop being a therapist? 

Maegan [00:10:23] I mean, I think, honestly, it was a thousand moments of mini knowing that sort of culminated in arriving at the point when I had enough courage to take the risk. And then I think there were a lot of safety nets. So if we’re thinking more pragmatically for a moment, I had so many safety nets in place. It’s not like I was a therapist in private practice and that was all I had done. And I was just saying, I’m not going to do that anymore and I’m going to walk away and I’m going to give myself the next five years to figure out the next chapter. No, I had built a robust group practice that I was running. I had created my personal brand, my coaching business. I had a thriving coaching program that I was facilitating. The next chapter of my life was already happening. And that made it less scary to say, I’m going to stop doing therapy now. I also think I- every time I felt afraid, I would remind myself that I wasn’t throwing my license away. I still have my license. I just renewed it for another two years because I’m like, you know what? I like the safety net. I like knowing that if everything else goes to shit or if I realize I’ve made some big, terrible mistake, I can just take a training to freshen up my skills and go right back to what I was doing before. For me, the hardest part I realized over time was the identity piece. It was symbolically what it meant for me as a woman to sit with clients and to say I am no longer going to be a therapist as of October 1st. And to say that in relationship over and over and over again, I am no longer going to be a therapist. I’m I’m retiring. I’m closing my therapy practice. 

Linzy [00:12:11] Talk about boundary setting. 

Maegan [00:12:13] That was the deep work for me. 

Linzy [00:12:17] Yeah. 

Maegan [00:12:17] But. But it was also like doing it, doing it, doing it. By the time I was done, having all of the conversations, I knew with more certainty than I had ever known before that I had just made the best decision of my life. You know? So I guess it’s it’s not like there was one eureka moment when I was like, I’m ready to do this. It was it was a thousand small moments that all culminated in knowing I’d made the right choice. 

Linzy [00:12:40] And those, you know, thousand small moments of knowing that came before, as you mentioned. I’m curious, cause I’m sure folks who are listening are like, but how did you know? How do you know it’s not burnout? How did you know? That it really was time to stop that work. 

Maegan [00:12:55] Great question. Yeah, well, two years of talking about it in therapy and now, you know, it’s like like I was doing a lot of really active creation around this. But the piece about burnout specifically, how do I know if I’m just burnt out? I think the first thing that you should do is recover from burnout. 

Linzy [00:13:11] Mm hmm. 

Maegan [00:13:12] Right. Recover from burnout no matter what. And then do the hard work of making really strategic changes in your private practice so that you don’t hate the business, the structure of the business that you’re running, and then maybe experiment with a couple different types of things therapists can do, maybe run a group, host a retreat, create a course. I think, recover from burnout, restructure your practice so that it doesn’t suck, and try something new as a therapist. And I think if you do that, let’s say it takes a year for you to do that. At the end of that year, you are going to have so much clarity about if it is the work or the business, if it’s burnout, if it’s identity. But you’re not going to know until you recover from burnout and make some experimental changes to try to make it better. 

Linzy [00:14:00] Mmm Yeah. Something else that I sometimes see and something I think I experienced in myself is like there was a lack of energy over here with therapy. I noticed that like I stopped wanting to take trainings. Trainings would come through my inbox and I used to like go to like go to trainings, you know, and be so excited by like the names that I recognized coming, all the trauma folks coming. And I would read trainings waiting for one that I’d be excited about. And I just never got excited again. But then I noticed that this other stuff was giving me energy and was exciting, so it’s not like I didn’t have the capacity for it, but kind of the content had changed. What was getting me going was not what it used to be. 

Maegan [00:14:42] I remember you and I were talking about this a couple of years ago that we noticed we had like two stacks of books on the nightstand. There was like a stack of books, you know, in our clinical areas of specialty. And then there was like the business building. So for us, like business building is what we moved to. And it was like, you know, the pile started where there were like ten therapy books and one business building book and then, or the other way around, there were like ten business building books and one therapy book because I finished reading them all. And then as time went on, like the number of therapy books I wasn’t opening was growing and growing and growing, but my business book stack was like, you know, I was always done because I was like- 

Linzy [00:15:19] They were getting read. 

Maegan [00:15:20] Look at look at that. Look at that relationship. I think that is- I think your energy and your excitement is worth paying attention to also. And I don’t know that we’ve talked about this. I’m I’m curious what this was like for you. I noticed that my energy in relationship with clients in the therapy room was changing as well. That I was starting to feel- like I could always turn it on and do good work. I could get myself into the flow of the moment, but I no longer felt the same flame. When I was like really into being a therapist, like thinking about the client, seeing them in the waiting room or on the screen, sitting in the room with them, like something would come alive inside of me. And I just felt this, like, energetic connection with the person on the couch. And that just sort of fizzled over time and eventually got to the point where I like resented when they would email me between sessions or I had like dread and heaviness in my body walking into the room to sit down for the 45 minute session. And it just started feeling so wrong in my body. That was one of the big indicators for me that, like, something fundamentally needs to shift about what I’m doing with my work. Did you feel any of that in the room with your clients? 

Linzy [00:16:37] I felt it coming. I mean, I did I did my transition a little differently in that I, you know, we’ve talked about this metaphor before with our friend Annie, right? Of burning the boats. Like, if you want to take the island, you need to burn the boats, which is this idea. If you want to really make something happen, you need to get rid of your safety net, right? Like you need to make it so that this is the thing that needs to work. And that’s the way that I built Money Nuts & Bolts. Right. Is like it was kind of my side thing. And then I closed down my whole therapy practice when I went on mat leave for a year. So I kind of had already done the saying goodbye to everybody and the like, you know, a year is a long enough time that already folks had like gone off and connected with other people. And then when I came back, it’s like I had this decision as to whether or not to go back into therapy or like try to go all in on this, you know, coaching, financial consulting business. And I saw this moment where I was like, I can go back into that safe room where I already knew before mat leave that it wasn’t feeling so right anymore. And I could go back in that door and it’s safe. I’m going to make money. Or I can like open this new door that I have no idea what’s behind it and maybe it won’t work at all. And I did that. And the reason I could do that is because I had had a profitable enough year before I went on my leave that I had money in the business. So I kind of had like basically, truly, like three months of money. So I did it a little differently. And then the actual closing down of my practice was actually me recommitting to what I already knew because I did still let some folks in the door at the same time because they were folks that I loved. And I think that’s what I wasn’t prepared for yet, is like I knew that I didn’t want to go back into practice full time and I was focusing on Money Nuts & Bolts. But then when like a client who I loved came back and was like, Oh my God, there’s this crisis in my life, can I please see you? And it’s like, I need the money. They need the support. I really like this person. We work well together. I said yes, and I only did that with five clients. But suddenly I had this caseload of five clients and I could really notice like, okay, now this is kind of getting a little bit bigger than I intended. I was right before mat leave and knowing that my story is not here anymore and then I had to like close it all down again. So I kind of had my practice practice closing and then my real practice closing. 

Maegan [00:18:47] But, you know, the reality is rarely in life are there these clear divisions between one chapter and another. Right. And for the Americans listening, mat leave, I have learned, is maternity leave. I’ve learned many isms from Linzy, but it’s like I mean, there was something really beautiful about that going on this big mat leave, maternity leave, it created this like dividing line between this chapter and this chapter. There was still some, like, bleeding over. And I think sometimes it happens like that, but more often than not, it is this. I’m just imagining like a woven tapestry, right? Where it’s like that these two chapters of your life are woven together. And, and I think that’s actually great because most of us, like you alluded to, you can’t afford to just switch careers with like no period of overlap. Like we need the income from the private practice to fund building the coaching business or the income from private practice to fund going back to school or becoming a teacher or whatever. Whatever it is you’re moving into in the next phase of your career. So I think there’s power in embracing the overlap and like using your private practice as this beautiful vessel that is basically funding you, exploring who you’re becoming in your life. Like, how cool is that that you get to fund your own personal exploration? 

Linzy [00:20:13] Yes, absolutely. And I think one of the powerful things about being a therapist and like and also like being a therapist, like identity-wise, when this is what we’ve done for so long, is I do think that it’s work that comes naturally and it’s an easy backup plan. If you have been good at it, you will continue to be good at it. Like for me, you know, sometimes there’s not, you know, that question that’s supposed to help with anxiety of like, well, what’s the worst that can happen? Which frankly, I don’t understand how that doesn’t lead anxious people to spiral out and just live in a box. But I understand the helpful application of it. And whenever it- 

Maegan [00:20:47] CBT was never our clinical uh- 

Linzy [00:20:49] No, it was not. 

Maegan [00:20:50] Framework. 

Linzy [00:20:50] But when I ask myself that question, it’s like, what’s the worst that could happen? It’s like, okay, I restart my therapy practice next week and I do work that I’m not as excited about as I am with this- 

Maegan [00:20:59] Lowest risk transition. 

Linzy [00:21:00] Truly, truly. So there is like a lot of safety, I think, that’s available there and a lot of support financially. You know, as long as you’re not so done with the profession that you’re actually concerned that you’re not being helpful – and doing harm – anymore. And I think that’s something I was very aware. I wanted to get out long, long, long before I was starting to question, you know, my clinical aptitude. But there is something comforting, I think, still, to me about knowing I can become a therapist again when I’m 50. 

Maegan [00:21:24] It is. It’s the safety net. I mean, even thinking about this, you know, recession that we’re moving into and how scary it is for any business owner. When my anxious brain is like, oh, recession, are people going to stop wanting to work with me? Or are there people going to stop doing business coaching or all of my group practice employees going to like quit? I don’t know. You just go to crazy places and like, you know what? People will literally always want and need therapy. So I will just keep my therapy license, I don’t know, until maybe forever. Yeah, because it’s such an easy safety net. I mean, maybe I feel like this is what we’re circling around, Linzy Which is, if you’re questioning, A) recover from burnout, no one makes any inspired decisions when your nervous system is fried. But B) like play, experiment. You know.

Linzy [00:22:12] Totally. 

Maegan [00:22:12] Like, try something else, you know. And that’s- I think that’s another gift of the private practice business model is it is perhaps the easiest business model to- it’s so malleable. 

Linzy [00:22:22] Yes. 

Maegan [00:22:23] Right. So if you see 30 clients a week right now, see 20. If you see 20 clients right now, see ten and use that extra time to try something new, to take a class, you know, take on a client in some different capacity. Like you won’t know who you are until you start trying on some new costumes. 

Linzy [00:22:44] Yeah, that’s so true. That’s so true. 

Maegan [00:22:46] Which I think is what we both did. And you don’t have to become a business coach. 

Linzy [00:22:53] No. 

Maegan [00:22:54] People say to me sometimes in my coaching programs like is the only other way to make money besides seeing therapy clients to become a business coach. And I’m like, I see why you would think that. But no, like you can literally make money doing whatever you want to do. You just have to do it to see if it feels right. 

Linzy [00:23:10] Yes, precisely. And I think it’s that kind of catching yourself early enough. Like, I think that’s something that we pondered for a while. But I think we also started taking action when we started to notice, and that allowed us to not have some sort of terrible, jarring disruption in our life when we stopped being therapists. I can completely see how that would play out very differently. I think if I had been in denial about the fact that the work wasn’t feeding me in the same way anymore and and the work that I did was also like particularly kind of demanding work intellectually and emotionally and doing dissociation work. And I could see that if I had not been honest about myself, I could have gone back into the work after I had my son and like I’m no longer sleeping as well and he needs my emotional energy. And I see how I could have become very burnt out and resentful and not as effective. And being honest with yourself early and starting to be curious like before you get into that- those like yucky places, being curious and playing. Yeah, I think there’s so much potential in that for like literally anybody listening who’s starting to question if they want to be a full time therapist for the rest of their career. 

Maegan [00:24:13] And I think as you’re doing that exploration, really do track it back to how long have you been the healer in your life? Right. Like, again, I do feel like most of us started when we were kids. Like we came out of the womb highly sensitive and empathic, probably in a family that wasn’t. And, you know, we were just soaking up the feelings and the needs of everyone else. We became over functioning perfectionists. So there’s – and this is what took me two years in therapy to really see clearly, is the reason it’s feeling really scary. For me to even say maybe I don’t want to be a therapist is because really what I’m saying is maybe I don’t want to be who I’ve always been. 

Linzy [00:24:53] Yes, yeah. 

Maegan [00:24:54] Like my whole life. And so it’s not just like my professional relationships that are going to change when I shift this in myself, like my family of origin, relationships are going to change. My friendships are going to change. Like everything is going to change. So of course, it feels big and terrifying. And I love what you were just saying about just play, just experiment. You don’t have to – don’t wait until it’s so bad that you have to turn your whole world upside down for transformation. I have a little post-it. I have a bulletin board up behind my computer here with a bunch of stuff on it. And I have a little Post-it that says, you saw your first coaching client in March of 2018 for $200. 

Linzy [00:25:33] Aww. 

Maegan [00:25:34] And I wrote that down after because this person, her name’s Ann Marie. She’s incredible. She’s still my coaching client. She’s in my mastermind. And she told me that a couple of months ago. She was like, Did you know that? I checked my QuickBooks the other day and March 2018, you only charged me $200. And I was like, Wow, look how much I’ve done since 2018. Like, and I wasn’t even thinking about business development. I was thinking about, like, personal work. 

Linzy [00:26:00] Totally. Yes. 

Maegan [00:26:01] So it’s like March 2018. I was like, Sure, I’ll do a 50 minute business coaching session with you for $200, which was my therapy fee at the time. And then I just did another and then another, and then I was like, Maybe I should make a business entity. And then I tried that. And then I was like, Maybe I’ll try a group program, and I did that. And it’s just been this growing and developing. And then last year it was like, Oh, it’s time. I’m ready to not be a therapist anymore. And this other thing is bringing me so much life. And it’s been almost a year since I saw my last therapy client, and I haven’t missed it even a little. 

Linzy [00:26:40] No. No, me neither. Me neither. And you know, something else that kind of occurs to me in this conversation is about chapters of life. That’s something I think about a lot lately, like having a child, like I do, and having a toddler. And there’s these very specific kind of like, especially when you have a kid, like you’re literally going through developmental stages with your child. Yeah, right. But also in life, I think like as we go through different ages, as our parents are in different stages and have different levels of need for support from us and stuff like that, and something that I noticed in myself is being very clear that in this chapter of my life, being a therapist doesn’t make sense. And for me, a big part of that is just emotional capacity like I, the type of therapy work that I did, or maybe just the type of therapist that I am. I give a lot emotionally, which means there’s not enough, not a lot left, and sometimes not enough left for my own life. And something that I realized for myself. I think even intuitively before when I went on mat leave and before I was a parent is I cannot be an emotionally present parent and be using my emotional energy all day long. I just don’t have that much. So in terms of chapters, it’s very clear to me that at this stage of my life, I want my son to get all of it. 

Maegan [00:27:52] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:27:53] You know, like I think in in the work that we do, we do use our emotional intelligence and like presence and capacity, but it’s like, you know, I’m using maybe 20% of what I used to. But it also makes you wonder if someday that might shift. Like, I’m kind of just open to the fact that like, this is where I am now and that could really look different in the future. And for me, there’s something very comforting about that. And I’m curious, do you think of this in terms of chapters, or do you know for sure you’re never going back to being a therapist? 

Maegan [00:28:19] I don’t know anything about anything. 

Linzy [00:28:23] Well, that was honest. 

Maegan [00:28:24] You know, I don’t know. It’s in I think of it chapters. I think chapters is great. I think I tend to think more into seasons because I like I like the kind of overlapping of one season to another versus like a start and a stopgap. I think that I love knowing it’s available to me if I want to go back to it. I love the way you were describing for you. It’s like you knew you wanted your emotional energy to go towards your son. And at my point in development, as a person who’s childfree by choice, like I reached a point where I said, I think I actually, for the first time ever in my life, want my emotional energy to go for me. So I just wanted to like say that to reflect that like that. It doesn’t matter why this is happening for you or what you need. It’s not selfish, it’s it’s not bad. It doesn’t make you a, you know, a bad person. It doesn’t make you a bad therapist. It just makes you human. And I agree, like we have to give ourselves permission to flow from one season or one chapter of our life to another. And if you think you might want to go back to being a therapist, just keep your license active and you can. It really is as simple as that. So simple. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:29:34] It’s true. So, Maegan, coming to the end of our conversation and I’m wondering, you’ve already laid out some really, I think, thoughtful advice for folks if they are starting to notice, like just start to explore a little bit of what else you like, is there any other thoughts or advice around this or do you feel like we’ve covered the gamut for folks who might be bouncing these questions around in their heads? 

Maegan [00:29:55] I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. I wish I would have had access to this conversation two or three years ago when I was first starting to explore this. I think, again, it’s- if you’re burnt out, you need to recover from burnout. You can’t- nothing productive will ever happen from a place of burnout, recover from burnout and get into therapy. If you’re not or if you’re not with a therapist, a coach or a community of people where you can talk about identity and where you’re going and who you’re becoming and weave that into some really strategic experiments, professional experiments where you try on some different careers or some different types of working and just trust that if you just stay in the flow of the work personally and professionally, you’ll figure out where you’re supposed to be. And then you will. I mean, March 2018, I tried coaching for the first time, and here we are in 2022, and I feel like I’ve been doing this my whole life, you know? So trust your process. 

Linzy [00:30:55]  Trust your process. And I do want to say too, you might be very surprised by what happens. Like something- I feel like 2018, I was like on fire. I don’t know how I did all the things I did in 2018, but I did the first round of Money Skills For Therapists. I had my first, I guess my first, my very first like, Money Nuts & Bolts client was the year before where I really had not worked stuff out, but I did have like eventually I had my first successful client, 2017 and 2018. It’s like I started this course. I was pregnant and so tired, of course. And then I got this contract, a financial consulting contract, which still blows my mind, for $50,000 USD. I went from like charging like 150 an hour and therapy to getting paid like more than $5,000 a month. But it was only because I kind of bet on myself and stuck my neck out and, you know, dared to own my gifts and met the right person in the right place who needed the work. And we had a fit. And it was yes, it was like it wasn’t a fluke, but it also kind of, I think, blew apart my perceptions of what was possible for me. I wish that for everybody listening right now, that you also get an experience like that that helps you realize that there is so much more, so many more ways for you to show up and contribute and take up space and be excited about the world beyond therapy, if that’s something that’s calling to you. 

Maegan [00:32:13] Couldn’t say it better myself and I hope you get paid $50,000 for it too. 

Linzy [00:32:17] Me too. 

Maegan [00:32:18] Me too. Linzy, thank you for having this conversation with me. It’s feels really special. I know this is something you and I have. We’ve been swimming in this river together for many years now, and it does feel really special that we are in a place where we can share this with the people who are ready to hear it now. So real pleasure. 

Linzy [00:32:37] Agreed. Thank you so much, Maegan. 

Maegan [00:32:38] You’re welcome. 

Linzy [00:32:52] It felt really good to have this conversation with Maegan about retiring from therapy. You know, for both of us, it was such a huge journey and very difficult decision to make. And I think that’s a good thing. It’s not a decision to make lightly, especially since, of course, we know that when we finish up work with folks, whether it’s that you’re a mental health therapist or doing manual therapy, it is a disruption to our clients’ lives. And that’s why I think there’s so much value, too, in noticing and being curious kind of early on as you start to suspect that maybe you want to not be a therapist anymore, start adding things in early when you still have energy and you can explore and you can start to see if this is burnout or if you are really ready to leave the profession and you can start to build your escape hatch. I remember thinking sometimes about how building Money Nuts & Bolts was kind of like building my escape hatch from therapy. At first I didn’t know if I was going to use it, but I knew that it gave me other options. There were definitely times when I was practicing therapy where I felt stuck and that this is it and this is who I am and I don’t have other options and I’m good at this work. Therefore, this is the work I have to do. That’s a whole other conversation Maegan and I could have had, and that we did have a lot as we both went through our journeys of closing our practices of staying in your, you know, just because you’re good at something, just because you have aptitude and a gift doesn’t mean that it’s where you need to spend all your time. Right. You don’t owe it to the world to be a therapist just because you’re good at therapy, you get to do what actually suits you and your energy and your passions and what lights you up. So, so many- I feel like I could just keep talking about this, but I’m just so appreciative of Maegan. And if you are not familiar with her, Maegan Megginson, check her out. She is a business coach for therapists. She especially supports therapists who are expanding beyond, but she also helps therapists build their brands. Check out the link in the show notes. She just has so many amazing resources and does all sorts of cool free offers in addition to her paid programs. Just very honored to know her. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We share free practical and emotional money content on there all the time, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. Super helpful and it’s the best way for other therapists to find me. Thanks for listening today. 

“I get so worried about marketing, like I won’t be able to remain consistent. So I just don’t start at all. ” “I know I should blog or email my list or post on social but this fear of being seen consumes me.” “I’m so worried that marketing is going to eat up all my time that I just don’t have.” If any of those three statements sound familiar to you, then you might be struggling to market your private practice as a therapist because you’re scared of being seen and being vulnerable, and experiencing marketing fear. In today’s podcast, I’m going to cover how this scarcity mindset shows up in our business, covering some of the top marketing fears that I’ve heard from clinicians again and again, and we get into this fear of being vulnerable. Before we dive into this episode, I want to invite you if you’re a therapist in social justice, or have a marginalized identity in private practice, to this Friday’s group coaching, it is on Friday, June 24. If you are listening to this in real time, Friday, June 24th 2022, I am going to be answering your questions about private practice–it is completely free. The first five people who register and show up live will get to ask me their questions. Please come even if you don’t get the opportunity to ask your personal question, because oftentimes, hearing from others helps you to understand what other people are going through. And sometimes they’re going through something almost identical. And being there and in community with others can help you be seen and heard to register for that again, Friday, June 24 11am Eastern, go to MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeCoaching and if that’s not you, but you know, somebody else who’s in private practice, who could use a little bit of coaching from me had tell them to head to MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeCoaching and they can join total transparency, this is completely free. And I will be talking about Grow a Profitable Practice From the Inside Out just a touch at the end. Because if you join Grow a Profitable Practice From the Inside Out between June 24 And June 30 of 2022, you are going to get access to a discount, and access to an extended payment plan that is completely markup free, both of my payment plans are record free. But on the waitlist, you have the choice to pay over the course of seven months instead of over the course of five months. So it gives you a little bit of financial breathing room if that is important to you. So again, MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeCoaching to register and show up live on June 24 for some free group coaching. With that exciting announcement out of the way, let’s talk about fear of visibility and how it’s impacting your private practice.

Here’s the thing, as therapists in private practice, we actually do have to market ourselves. Now that is not meaning that you have to send 1000 business cards to a bunch of people, it also doesn’t mean you have to go live on Instagram or dance on Tik Tok. But you do have to market yourself. And what that means is getting really clear about your niche. That’s who you serve and how you can help them and get really clear about the different ways that you are going to let people know who you are, who you help and how you help them. If you want help figuring out your niche, I have a free guide, lots of free stuff today at MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeGuide that will take you through the five top resources I have from taking your private practice from on the side to full-time. And it includes a very thorough resource on how to actually go about carving out your niche. So if you don’t have a niche yet, or you have a broad niche, or you’re struggling to narrow it down, you might want to grab that resource at MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeGuide. So you need it to be marketing yourself so that people know that you are around and that they can work with you. You get to decide how you want to market where you want to market.

But we have to get over this fear of visibility and this fear of scarcity and I find them really intertwined in this place of scarcity mindset when it comes to doing the work that you do when it comes to the visibility scarcity mindset in your private practice. It’s this idea that there’s already somebody out there in the world who does what you do, and therefore there’s not enough to go around. There’s already someone who does eating disorder recovery in New Jersey, so might as well not bother or there’s already somebody that does gender-nonconforming care in Oregon, so better just decide on something else to do or you do continue doing what you’re doing, but you do it really quietly, really coyly, you don’t really let people know. And that is actually making it harder for you to help the people who you are called to serve. And it’s actually so negatively impactful, not just on you in your business, but also on the clients you are meant to serve. Because here’s the thing, there are more than enough people out there who need good quality psychotherapy. And the more you hide yourself, the harder it is to get out in front of others. And when we think about having a full practice, let’s just be super, super clear here, that full when you are doing it, right, and which means it’s in alignment with your energy, which means you’re pricing your services appropriately, which means you’re seeing the types of clients you’re meant to see. Full is between 15 and 20 clients, or 12 and 15 clients a week. And that means you need to get out there and make sure that those 12 or 15, or 20, people know that you exist and that you are available to help. So getting comfortable with this idea that there’s more than enough to go around. Even if there is somebody who has the supposedly exact same niche is you in your same city, we don’t know that the type of client who you are meant to serve, doesn’t, doesn’t want to work with that other person, maybe that other person they’ve already tried working with and they weren’t a good fit. Maybe that other person works, days, hours that don’t work for this person. So getting really comfortable that it’s not competition out there. There’s having other people who do what you do means that there is “proof of concept” means that there are other people out there in the world who have businesses or have private practice of serving the types of clients that you want to serve. And because they are in business, it is proof that the type of work that you want to do has a market. So let’s not get caught up. And if I do this, and somebody else in town or in my state does it, then I’m out of here, let’s really practice getting into this idea that there’s plenty to go around. Okay.

Let’s get into the four common marketing fears that have, let me be really clear, nothing to do with the logistics. It’s not about should I market on social media, should I do email marketing? Should I, you know, optimize my website for SEO? The logistics, let’s put those aside. Because these are more about emotional and psychological fears, the fear of getting canceled, the fear of not knowing enough, the fear of showing up differently, and the fear of deservingness. I’m going to break all of these down for you. The fear of getting canceled is one that I have started to hear more and more in the past couple of years, as you know, cancel culture or accountability culture has taken hold. And when we are fearful of getting “canceled,” we can freeze and get fearful of speaking our truth. And when I say speaking our truth, when we’re talking about our private practices, it’s just saying, I help these types of clients. So they can feel better in this type of a way. And here’s when I work, here’s how I work. And here’s the type of people that I serve. That’s it. So when we think of it that way, we want to really get comfortable knowing that somebody can’t cancel us for not working with, I’m gonna be really extreme here, but just bear with me not working with like NRA members, if for us, we are advocates of sensible gun control. And we’re really clear about that you can’t get in trouble for saying I don’t work with NRA folks. If that is something that is in alignment with your values, and is important to you, and you don’t work with those people, you’re not going to get in trouble. Or if somebody comes at you and says How dare you not work with people who, you know, are members of the NRA, you can say look, that is another therapist for another person for another day. That is not who I’m meant to see. And I’m gonna go on a sidebar here for just a second. This idea that we are meant to serve everyone, and when I see it on people’s websites, I know that it’s well-meaning when they say things like we’re welcoming and inclusive of everyone. I think that that is incredibly well-intentioned, but it also misses the mark. And I know what they’re trying to do most of the time, is say that people who have traditionally been excluded from health care or from mental health care are welcome there. But the way that it reads is that you see anybody and everybody, so let’s also get clear about who you see and who you don’t see. And again, you can grab that free guide MindMoneyBalance.com/FreeGuide to get my tips on niching that should help you out. So back to this idea of this fear of getting canceled. Is that a real fear? Sure and also people really like canceling people who have lots of status or lots of clout in the world. And not to say therapists don’t have status and clout. But most of us are not, you know, Brené Brown sorry, unless Brené Brown’s listening, we’re not her, okay? Most of us are not on that type of stage. So we cannot fall as far as we are so fearful that we will fall. Let’s get really comfortable speaking on the topics that you can back up if a troll were to comment. Like for me, if somebody were to comment on like a popcorn post of mine, since I’m often posting it on Thursday evenings, when that’s like my go to thing. If someone’s like you, Ew how dare you put nutritional yeast on popcorn, ugh, that is going to be something that I’m just going to be able to kind of like laugh and roll my eyes at because it really to me doesn’t matter, they can be offended that I didn’t put butter on it, or salt on it, or whatever they think I shouldn’t be putting on my popcorn, but it’s like not going to really impact me, okay? Other things that are going to probably roll off my shoulders are you know, being clear that I’m child-free by choice, I’ve made that pretty clearly. And if somebody comes at me, and they’re like, well, aren’t you worried about who’s going to take care of you when you’re old? Like, those types of comments just aren’t going to like, really weigh me down. And there are certain things that I just don’t talk about, because they are too close to home, or that is a boundary that I’ve put up. And so that helps me kind of navigate what I do market about or what I do share about and what I don’t. And let’s say you do offend someone, and it actually you’re like, totally taken aback, you said something, you did something, and you didn’t think it was offensive or harmful at all. And a group of people from that marginalized group or from that group that you offended, says, Hey, you messed up, make like lizard when take accountability of it. Okay? Say I’m sorry, I made a mistake, fix it, and do better to model for others the importance of being open to learning to be open to change when a community lets you know, hey, you just stepped in it. So as therapists we are really good at sitting with discomfort. So let’s say worst-case scenario, somebody says, Yo, you said something on your website that was harmful. Take it down. You could like quietly erase that word. Or you could say, You know what, I did put a word there that I’m not super proud of, or that I wasn’t aware of was harmful. I’ve learned from it. I appreciate my community for letting me know that this was bad. And I’ve made remedies to fix that mistake. That is also something that as therapists we can do. How many times have you been in a session? Hope you know what a client says to you? Whoa, Lindsay, that did not land well with me, that actually is kind of bringing something funky up for me. I’m not cool with that. We don’t say well, you shouldn’t be cool with it. You shouldn’t be okay with what I say. We say, wow. Tell me about that. I’m so sorry that that landed in that way. How can I remedy this? We are constantly modeling for our clients the importance of taking accountability and being humble. So this fear of being canceled, I get where it comes from. And as therapists, we are really good at owning when we’ve made a mistake sitting with that discomfort and fixing it. So that’s one thing to kind of help you move through that fear of getting canceled.

The next marketing fear that I hear from therapists all the time is this fear of not knowing enough, I don’t have enough certificates. I haven’t read enough books, I haven’t done enough supervision. I’m not going to repeat everything that I said in the last episode, Episode 103. But I covered this in-depth. And it’s this connection between imposter syndrome and not feeling like you’re smart enough or you know enough, or you’re gifted enough clinician, and then over-consuming content and information that only furthers this spiral of feeling like you don’t know enough. So let’s just acknowledge that you don’t know everything. I’m raising my hand and you can’t see me because this is a podcast. None of us know everything. That’s okay, that’s a part of being human. And that’s again, part of being a clinician, but you know enough about the types of people you serve, and about how you’re able to help them and of course, you’re open to continuing to expand your knowledge and learn different interventions or therapeutic techniques, but nobody is going to be quizzing you on this when you mark it your private practice, nobody’s going to say, or if they do, again, go back to point one on this fear of getting canceled. But nobody’s going to say, you know, I can’t believe you said that you help people with eating disorders. And you know, you didn’t get this particular certificate, how dare you. It’s like what? yYu know enough to help the clients you’re meant to help. And you are humble enough to continue learning to continue improving, being a clinician. So let’s sweep that one to the side too.

The next fear is this fear of showing up differently, which, like, can we just acknowledge this is the whole point of marketing is to help yourself stand out from the crowd, being different is a gift, being the type of therapists that you are, whether you advocate for folks in different ways through social justice, or whether you show up truly embodying parts of your identity, both marginalized, and privilege, that helps to dismantle this idea that all therapists look and walk and talk and interact in the same way. Showing up as yourself, actually is a gift when it comes to marketing, because you are the only person who does therapy in the exact same way that you do it with your unique lens and viewpoint. And that is powerful, my friends showing up and saying, Yeah, I have tattoos and piercings, or I have gray hair, or I live in a bigger body, or whatever it is, helps again, your clients who are meant to work with you find you. The last fear is this fear of deserving this, does my voice deserve to be heard? Do I deserve to be seen? Am I allowed to do this. And this ties into a little bit this idea of not knowing enough, but it’s deeper than that. It’s about being allowed or about deserving to show up in the way that you need to show up that is most in alignment with you. And I’m here to tell you that you do deserve it. You absolutely deserve to be seen, and your voice deserves to be heard. However you choose to share it with the world, through your marketing channels, it is meant to be seen and meant to be heard. And all of these fears if I were to take all of these fears and put them into a basket, I would comfortably be able to say all of these fears are rooted in this fear of being vulnerable. And the fear of saying this is who I am, this is my face. This is my voice. This is my approach. These are the clients I meant to help. That fear of being vulnerable is incredibly scary and can make marketing incredibly difficult. Because most of us have been trained to be blank slates to not make waves to lead with our credentials, to lead with the alphabet soup of the therapeutic interventions that we do, instead of showing up and being a little bit vulnerable, as the parts of ourselves that we bring into our therapeutic work. And if you’re of a marginalized group, you’re a woman, you’re BIPOC, you’re queer, you’re undocumented, you’re disabled, you’re of a religious minority group. I could go on forever. It also might be internalized oppression, that’s making it really hard to be visible and market yourself. Yeah. When we think about internalized oppression, just a quick refresh here. It is when a person of a marginalized identity turns that oppression on themselves. And this internalized oppression can often show up is editing, editing what we say editing what we do editing how we show up in the world. This is when code-switching really comes into play. It can show up as voluntary isolation, not going to certain group outings, not putting your face on your website not recording that reel that you want to for Instagram, self-sabotage, spending a lot of time on Canva to create the perfect post and the perfect graphic, only to get ready to hit post and just scrap it altogether. Deciding not doing it or sit down to write the website copy again, that’s the words on your website, for your about page. get really comfortable being on the edge of discomfort and being like vulnerable but not oversharing. And then just deleting that entire thing and just saying like no, I’m Lindsay, I’m a therapist. I work in Michigan, the end. Internalized oppression can also show up as deferring to whiteness. And when we think of whiteness within the context of psychotherapy, we think about like the status quo, and the status quo in psychotherapy, is as I mentioned that blank slate to show up. very stoic to show up without reaction to not emote. And that’s really hard to do in marketing to not emote to not show yourself. And then finally, internalized oppression can show up is not-enoughness. I’m not enough, right? I don’t know enough, I’m gonna get canceled. I’m going to show up two differently. I don’t deserve this. Those all fall under the category of not-enoughness. So if you are struggling to market, it might not be the logistics. It’s not what platform do I need to be on? How many times do I need to post what you know, audio trend is trending? It really may be that underneath this fear of vulnerability, is that deep-seated internalized oppression, and you’re isolating, editing, self-sabotaging deferring to the status quo, and engaging in not-enoughness. That’s not a judgment, let me be very clear, been there, raise my hand, continue to experience it also raising my hand, we have to acknowledge that it is not just about the logistics of marketing your practice, and it could absolutely be about who you are the body you live in, in the work that you do that makes it hard to market. And that is why I am over the moon thrilled to be getting ready to open the doors again, to Grow a Profitable Practice From the Inside Out. This time around, I’m being crystal, crystal clear. Let’s talk about a niche for a second, that this program is only for therapists in social justice or of marginalized identities. Because I cannot go into a group and say, do this thing, if I’m not fully showing up and saying, These are the folks, these are my people. These are who I meant to work with. And it’s so interesting, because I was talking to some past alum of Inside Out if you’re listening Hello, and thank you about this change and getting some feedback about making that change. And one of them said, like, Lindsay, you already do this work, I was drawn to you because of your lens of approaching therapy and private practice through the lens of social justice and for people of marginalized identities. This isn’t like out of alignment for you, you’re just being more clear on your messaging. And hearing that you know who you are, if you’re listening was beyond affirming. And it again ties into what I’m talking about today. This fear of visibility and this this scarcity. And had I not said this is what I’m going to do. This is how I’m going to format the group moving forward really clearly. Like who would I be isolating? Who would I not be speaking to? And also, as you’ve been here listening to me on this journey, I mean, you could say, oh, Lindsay is a flip-flopper. You could say, oh, no, that girl, she evolves and she changes and she takes us right along with her. And for some of you, you’re like, Oh, I can’t stand this podcast anymore. Because I don’t know what I’m getting. When I tune in. Some of you are saying, Oh, thank you. Thank you for showing up being super messy. As you talk about all of this stuff. That was completely off the cuff. By the way. FYI, behind the scenes of this podcast, I usually have a handful of bullet points and then I just riff that was a big riff was a big riff.

Anyway, where was I? Grow a Profitable Practice From the Inside Out is my small group coaching program specifically for therapists in private practice, who work in social justice or are of marginalized identities. And in our time together through the course of five months, we will cover money mindset, without the spiritual bypassing, I will help you figure out what fee you need to set for your therapy session so that you can not only sustain your practice, but have profit and move towards more than enoughness. And then we will talk about how to niche down and get the foundations of marketing while developing that self-trust. Because it’s not about me saying yes, you can do that. No, you can’t. It’s about you saying I’m ready to do this. And I just need to be held within the container of other people who are cheering me on as I show up and as I’m vulnerable. And if that’s you, I encourage you to go to MindMoneyBalance.com/ProfitablePractice you can get on the waitlist, the waitlist is running from June 24 Through June 30. And if you add yourself to the waitlist, you get a discount on the program and the option of that mark-up free payment plan. And again, if you want to join me on June 24, I’ll be doing a free group coaching session to give you a taste of what it’s like to work with me and to offer some more information about the program, and answer any questions you might have. I am just so thrilled that you’re here. I’m so thrilled that you’re listening. I know that I’ve been changing things up and I also am just, you know, sometimes I think about this is also not on a bullet point, you guys. I was gonna say y’all, and then I said, You guys, and kind of blended anyway. I don’t know where I was going, but I’m just thankful you’re here. Can I just say that? I’m thankful you’re here. I’m thankful somebody listens. Sometimes I think I’m speaking into the void. And then I’ll have a comment like the one I mentioned earlier about my Inside Out alum or I’ll get an email in my inbox. I got the loveliest email a couple of weeks ago about somebody who read my book, you know who you are. Thank you for sending that beautiful message. Talk about being vulnerable. It’s vulnerable as hell to show up on this podcast and record and wonder if anyone’s going to listen. So I’m here with you. It’s scary. It’s not always easy, but I don’t push myself to the point of traumatizing myself or making myself anxious. I keep myself on that edge of discomfort on that growth edge. So that’s what I got for you today. I will be back in a couple of weeks.