Jelisha [00:00:02] Normally it looks like, Oh, I’m going to slide the fee for this person or my client is going through something, so I’m going to slide their fee. But that also can come with some resentment, especially if it’s just ongoing and you haven’t really talked about if this is going to shift at any point. I really like to help therapists to sort of explore ways to give back that aren’t at your financial or emotional expense. Helping shouldn’t hurt. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode for our season closure for season four of the podcast. I invited back Jelisha Gatling. So Jelisha is a therapist. She was a coach in Money Skills For Therapists for about a year. She’s a grad of Money Skills For Therapists. She used to coach for LIMB as well. Lean in Make Bank, Tiffany’s program. Now she does her own consulting with therapists. She does VIP days focusing around boundaries. And that is exactly what I invited her to talk about today when I was thinking about how do we finish off season four? Jelisha immediately came to mind because I love the work that she’s doing around boundaries. Looking at private practice from a boundary perspective, looking at how not enforcing our boundaries leaves money on the table for therapists. But also, you know, being aware of the costs of not enforcing our boundaries, even in a personal sense. So if you find yourself feeling frustrated sometimes in your private practice or annoyed, resentful, exhausted, this episode is definitely for you. Jelisha shares five Financial Boundaries That Therapists Struggle With, where setting and enforcing those boundaries will completely change your experience of your practice. And we also got into this really powerful conversation about helping and beliefs about helping and how things should feel and how that also connects to our boundaries in private practice. Here is my conversation with Jelisha Gatling. So Jelisha, welcome back to the podcast. 

Jelisha [00:02:34] Thank you so much for having me again. It’s an honor to be back. 

Linzy [00:02:37] I am so excited to have you back. This is going to be our season closer for season four. Not to bring up the pressure again, but as I was thinking about who would I want to have, you immediately came to mind. And the thing that I actually immediately thought about is all this work that you’ve been doing around therapists and boundaries in their practice. Can you tell folks just a little bit about kind of that work that you do with therapists? 

Jelisha [00:03:01] Yeah, so I work primarily- I do some VIP days with therapists and also have some extended 1 to 1 work that I do with them working on really recognizing where they may be leaving money on the table. And I find that typically that’s always tied to a boundary that is not firm, that’s not clear, or that needs to be reset, because sometimes you do have to reset boundaries as your practice grows and changes. And really helping them to see where they may be leaving money on the table and what kind of boundaries they need to firm up and what really aligns with their values. If that’s around policy, that’s around really like walking the walk, not just talking the talk, and really helping them to have a language to communicate to clients and exploring how to communicate that to clients if they have fears or anxiety. Because a lot of therapists have anxiety about losing clients or clients getting mad and so really giving them a lot of support around all of those fears that can keep them from having a practice that really works for them. 

Linzy [00:04:04] I love that framing of boundaries because I think this is a topic, you know, that we could talk about in a lot of ways. And certainly folks think about like their policies or their fee. But I think framing these things as boundaries shows where they’re all kind of similar. And also, to me, speaks to the fact that these are really personal. You know, boundaries are personal. What is one person’s boundary – what’s your boundary – might not be my boundary. And so I love that, too, of really highlighting the fact that these are very personal and kind of linked to our emotions and our feelings and probably like messages in our body can give us clues about what’s working and what’s not working. 

Jelisha [00:04:39] Yes, they absolutely do. Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:04:42] So I’m curious, what are some of these boundaries that you see therapists struggling with in their private practices? 

Jelisha [00:04:49] Well, so one that I see that I think, for a lot of therapists I work with, they haven’t really recognized. It’s something that I tend to assess for, is when you have clients who are hitting their goals and they say, hey, how about we start seeing each other bi-weekly or monthly? Or maybe you even make that suggestion because it makes sense clinically. I think it’s really important that you sort of preplan what spots in your calendar are going to solely be for bi-weekly or monthly or whatever, less frequent clients, let’s say maybe you even do check-in sessions. I have specific blocks on my calendar that are for those specifically, and this really helps because I’ve heard so much frustration, I’ve experienced that myself where I’ve said, okay, you will do that, and I give them the same spot and then someone, you know, wants to come in and I am stretching myself to try to find a spot for a new client that actually isn’t in my ideal schedule, if that makes sense. 

Linzy [00:05:50] Yeah. 

Jelisha [00:05:51] So that you’re not just saying yes to someone or saying yes to be a people pleaser, if that’s something that you maybe struggle with, you want to say, hey, actually I have specific bi weekly spots. This is what I have available right now. Literally on my calendar, I have any biweekly spots that are open available. You know, I think it’s really good to set sort of an amount, a minimum amount and make sure that’s during a time that isn’t going to annoy you. So, you know, something that might be before your last session and let’s say it’s not full at that time, that might not be the best place to put your moments of instability, but let clients know upfront. I just had a new couple starting and they said, So what happens when we want to become less than once a week? Like, do you do that? I said yes, but you will not be guaranteed the spot. It’s based on what bi weekly availability I have, which is different. And they were like, okay, that makes sense. So it’s not a surprise. And really it helps you not to stretch yourself too thin, but also it affects your money. It really does. So, it’s just something that you want to be- when you think about your ideal schedule and you’re laying that out, you want to also account for those kinds of shifts that will likely happen. 

Linzy [00:07:02] And something that occurs to me when you’re talking about this, is again thinking about it being boundaries and personal. It’s also going to depend on how you like to work with people and how you tend to work with people. So what I’m kind of gathering from what you’re saying is biweekly is not probably your ideal or common way of working with folks. Is that accurate or. 

Jelisha [00:07:18] Well, not initially. 

Linzy [00:07:19] Yeah. Like in my practice, if I think back, something that was really caught to me is I also had biweekly spots, but those spots were really popular, right? Because I did EMDR and, you know, worked with folks on often like family of origin, like old, old stuff. And some folks coming bi-weekly actually worked quite well for them because it was like so intense. The work was so intense that it was like nice to have sat a long time in between. So it’s really common that I had biweekly clients, but I had the specific biweekly spots. So it’s like two clients would be sharing a spot, but they would be very much set in my schedule. So I don’t have like one bi weekly person hanging out here on Thursday at three, but then got nobody the next week. Like it’s like that was very common in my, in my practice. But again, having that clear spot, you know, what I’m hearing is part of the pain of it is if you have spots that you don’t think through and then it’s biweekly, you can have it so that, as you say, like it’s a spot before your last spot. So every Thursday you have like a three hour gap in your afternoon every other week that you’re like, God damn this gap. 

[00:08:13] Exactly. 

[00:08:13] Right? And so again, that’s very personal. But I love, yeah, that bringing that intention to what your schedule needs to look like and being proactive about it too. 

Jelisha [00:08:22] Yeah, being proactive about it. And yeah, it’s, it’s really helpful to set up those expectations upfront. And I’ll talk at the end about my, my freebie that sort of addresses how to sort of change if you’re already in the thick of, Oh my gosh, this is a mess, how can I change it? There there are ways to reset that. 

Linzy [00:08:40] I love that. And something else that I love about this proactivity is like sometimes I think that these things kind of take us by surprise, but they shouldn’t because we know we know that when we’re working with somebody for long enough, eventually they’ll be like, I don’t think I need to come so much. We’ll be like, I don’t think you need to come so much. So it’s not a surprise. But when we don’t plan in advance and set those boundaries in advance, it can take us by surprise. And then we’re like, Oh, okay, yeah, you can just stay in the spot. Like, I love the boundaries, not just being reactive in this case, but being proactive. 

Jelisha [00:09:09] Totally. Yes. And it’s like all you have to do. All I have to do is look at my calendar and I can tell you what biweekly spots I have available. Same with when someone needs to reschedule. I have spots in my calendar. 

Linzy [00:09:21] Yes. so good. So what other boundaries? 

Jelisha [00:09:26] Okay, so the second one, it’s very connected to the first one, but you want to set clear expectations for clients when they come in for what they have to- I guess what expectations do you expect them to meet, to hold their spot? So this can come up when you let’s say you have a client who they cancel kind of frequently, but they always do it within your cancellation policy. So that’s 48 hours perhaps that they’re always getting in there within that 48 hours to cancel. But maybe it’s two weeks before you see them again and you’re holding this like primetime spot for them. And so I run into that initially. And, you know, it’s kind of uncomfortable and difficult to try to talk about that if you haven’t outlined that in your paperwork and it hasn’t been an issue that you verbally express. And so- and this can be anything, I’m not going to say that there’s a perfect way to do it. But what feels right for you. For me, if you don’t reschedule within the same week for more than two times, basically once goes past two times, we’re having a conversation and your spot may be released. Well, that’s kind of how I go about it, but it really can look- it can look however it works for you. It’s really personal, and it may change also, but it needs to be clear so that you’re not, Oh, I hope they don’t do this again. Or, you know, you’re going back and forth. 

Linzy [00:10:45] Or like, Ugh, they did it again. Now what do I do? Yup. I love that extra layer because, as you say, like sometimes we have policies that are like, as you say, like cancelation window, you know, like give me 48 hours notice. So it’s like technically they’re following your policy and yet you’re still getting that like, “Oh, no” reaction. Right. Yeah. Which is a sign that maybe your policy is not clear enough. So being clear about those expectations. Yeah. And something that I think about with this too is like, it’s going to depend on you and also your client population, right, and who you want to serve. Who you do serve. So like sometimes, sometimes I noticed this with folks like in Money Skills For Therapists, for instance, like when we’re having these conversations where it’s like, well, that doesn’t feel good to me. And it’s like, that’s an example, you know, we need to set our own, but it’s thinking about like, who do you serve? Who do you want to keep serving? You know, what makes sense for that population, but still having expectations, not just like anything goes. Just because you work with moms who are busy, it doesn’t mean that your schedule is just whatever. 

Jelisha [00:11:41] Exactly. Yeah. So just being clear on- because the boundary is only as good as the response. Right. That’s essentially what you want to set up. So attendance and around rescheduling, I mean that I can name four or five different ways that you might approach that. So yeah, really being clear about that and going over that in that initial session. And again, if that changes at some point in the middle of treatment, bringing that up and saying, hey, there are some changes going on in my practice. This is what’s up. 

Linzy [00:12:11] Okay, so what’s our next boundary? I know you have a few that you brought so I want to make sure we hit them all. 

Jelisha [00:12:17] So another one is this. This idea of a therapist wanting to give back and giving back in their business. And so that normally it looks like, oh, I’m going to slide the fee for this person. Or my client is going through some things, I’m going to slide their fee. But that also can come with some resentment and sort of especially if it’s just ongoing and you haven’t really talked about if this is going to shift at any point. And it’s frustrating. And so I really like to help therapists to sort of explore ways to give back that aren’t at your financial or emotional expense. And so especially if you’re in a position where you really can’t afford to have a pro-bono spot or a sliding scale spot. And I think it’s because I think you can set up sort of an idea of what that would look like when I am able to do that. But in the meantime, this could be creating a course, a workshop. You know, people create really cool things that clients or potential clients could utilize while they’re maybe continuing on their search or in addition to referrals that you might give them. It could be a page of really great book resources. It could be, you know, running a group that would be a lower cost that’s still serving the population that you like to work with. Really highlighting that sliding the fee isn’t the only way to give back. And I always say, like helping shouldn’t hurt. Helping is- that’s supposed to be like a generous feels-good thing. If it hurts and it doesn’t feel good. You’re not helping. 

Linzy [00:13:43] Oh, my gosh. That’s so good. 

Jelisha [00:13:46] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:13:47] Yeah. That- helping shouldn’t hurt. And the other thing that you said that similar idea, but so good, of giving back in ways that doesn’t cost you emotionally or financially. Because, you know, I think that that helping shouldn’t hurt piece really gets at something that is a belief that I think a lot of therapists unconsciously have that helping hurts. Right. Like so it makes you think about the opposite there of like the conditioning that we have often before I think we get into this field from experiences of our life or our family of origin or just societal messages about being women or being people of color and sacrificing yourself and you’re not valuable. I’m getting like chills in my body. 

Jelisha [00:14:25] No, I- but even like as a black woman. I mean, it’s you know, there’s this narrative of be the strong black woman to the head of the household. You you take on everything. You’re strong. And so I think a lot of therapists can almost approach it like, well, they’re really going through it. It’s not as bad. Like, I have more privilege or things aren’t so bad. You know what? I can I can just sort of give this away even though I make it tough because they need it. So it’s really putting them first. Right. But again, I say, is that coming from a full cup? If you’re stressing about making rent, if you’re stressing about, you know, you want to do more supervision, but you’re not able to. Yeah. You know, you’ve got to really weigh that out. And again, I don’t say, okay, you don’t have to do anything, but just explore what else giving back could look like during this period in your in your practice. 

Linzy [00:15:16] Yeah, because something I think about, too, and I think if folks are listening and the idea of, like, taking care of yourself or having a full cup is like too far. Maybe a first step to thinking about this is how is it impacting the folks in your life, like your kids or your partner or your ability to be present for your parents who need you when you’re giving so much that you’re depleted financially or emotionally? Right. So like, if you can’t think about taking care of yourself yet, think about those people who are actually your inner circle and who you love and who who really need you like. I often think about this that being a parent, like my clients used to think that they really needed me. My son really needs me. Right. There’s a difference there. Right. Anybody can find another therapist. My son is not going to fight another mom if I’m emotionally unavailable and exhausted and not present for him. So that might be something like as a gateway thing for folks who are listening to think about is, yeah, there’s costs to us and there’s cost to people around us when helping hurts. 

Jelisha [00:16:12] That is such a great- I’m so glad you brought that piece up because it’s making me think of a lot of therapists that I’ve worked with who have said to me, I’m like, if this were to be helpful to you, what would be happening, right? Like in the future? And they say, I would actually want to talk to my partner when I get home. I wouldn’t want to curl up in a ball. I wouldn’t be annoyed at my kid wanting to tell me about their day. And those are the things that like matter. And yeah, this is so much bigger than just money in the bank. 

Linzy [00:16:39] Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah. Okay. What’s your next boundary? That was so good. 

Jelisha [00:16:45] The boundary is not giving away your professional services for free. So when I say this, when I’m talking about therapy specifically, I’m talking about maybe acquaintances, friends, family who try to really utilize you and emotionally dump on you as a therapist. So that can be costly, it’s draining, and you just don’t want to set that precedence that you’re available for that. In addition, there are so many therapists who have who maybe do consulting, who are supervisors, who maybe do workshops. And I’ve been in the position where I’ve had old colleagues, schoolmates from grad school reaching out like, Hey, can I pick your brain or can I have this workshop for free? I would do it. But I would become resentful after a while. And I realized this is like- this is money I’m leaving on the table. But also I don’t feel good about it because people sometimes can push. You know what I mean? And so there’s there’s something about charging for your services. Like, for example, if you are licensed as a supervisor and you provide supervision, I mean, unless it’s totally in your heart, I mean it completely in your heart. And it’s good. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do it, but if you are saying, Hey, I need to make more money, I am stretched thin, I need more free time. And you’re making time in your calendar to give away professional services that you actually charge for. You know, you’re contributing to that. You’re playing a part in maintaining that. And so I help therapists to really how to have that conversation, how to respond to those emails that say, Hey, can I pick your brain? I saw you on X, Y, Z. How to do that kindly. You know, it goes something like maybe responding with, you know, hey, is this- I think this might have been something that you maybe shared with me years ago, Linzy. You remember, don’t you? 

Linzy [00:18:36] I do, yes. 

Jelisha [00:18:37] You say it’s something to the effect of, you know, is this going to be sort of just a like catch up friend kind of thing or are we talking business? If so, here’s my link. 

Linzy [00:18:47] Or here’s the schedule here. 

Jelisha [00:18:48] Right. 

Linzy [00:18:49] Yes. And the line that I have used in the past is, if you want to talk about business, let’s make this a consulting session so I can bring my full consulting brain and give you, you know, exactly what you’re looking for, like making that clear delineation, right? Like, are we friends who are catching up or are you getting business advice from me? Because if you’re getting business advice, I’m not going to come with stories about my kid. I’m going to come ready to actually serve you and you’re going to pay me for it. Something that I’ve been thinking about the last couple, especially in the last year, I’d say, Jelisha, is also the cost to you in terms of your experience of yourself when you let this happen. I know for me personally, I was not good at building healthy relationships in my younger life. So I’ve built relationships where there’s a precedent, where I am the therapist and I am the caregiver, and when we get together, they’re going to emotionally lean on me and they’re not going to ask me about myself or they’re not going to ask me about this hard things happening in my life. And especially in the last couple months, I would say like I’ve really made a decision of like, I’m not doing that anymore. And it’s hard. It’s hard, right? Because in some cases, that actually means saying goodbye to people. 

Jelisha [00:19:54] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:19:55] Yeah. Like that. That actually ends up being the boundary of like this is not actually a relationship I’m going to continue investing in. You know, it’s not because of who they are. It’s nothing fixed, but it’s like we’ve built this thing that works a certain way. And I think if we met today, we probably wouldn’t become friends. And who I’ve grown into, I’m not willing to put myself into this position because I notice for myself, like feeling that like, you know, empowered boss energy, if you want to say it a certain way, like, yes, what I do is valuable and I’m like, I’m changing people’s lives and I’m getting emails from people who are like, You totally change the way I think about money. Feeling that way over here and then going for a friend date where afterwards I feel, like, used and uneducated and like I don’t matter. And then like it’s not, it’s not worth the cost, right? The cost becomes so much more clear when you do start to have people who value what you have to offer. And so, yeah, this one for me really like I feel it deeply and it’s a hard one. It can be a really hard one to either change those dynamics or have to say goodbye to folks. 

Jelisha [00:20:46] Yeah, definitely been ghosted by some people that I thought I would be like lifelong colleagues. But yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:54] Yeah, I’ve been ghosted, like when you set a boundary like this or- 

Jelisha [00:20:58] Oh yes. Like responded with that, like, never heard from them again. All of a sudden I can’t see them on Instagram. I mean like-

Linzy [00:21:03] Oh wow. 

Jelisha [00:21:05] That are like, come on, we worked together. And I’m like, no, actually, like this is something I- literally this is like a part of my income. This is how I make a living now. You know?

Linzy [00:21:13] And that tells you so much about how much they actually value what you do. I’ve had folks before ask me if I could give them consultation, but charge it as like social work so they could use their insurance. I’m like, first of all, that’s insurance fraud. Secondly, you’re literally willing to pay me $0 for this thing that I’m like, that is my specialty and that like I really thrive in and have a lot of gifts to share with you. You literally value it, not even at $0, but like will you fraud for me? Like, wow, no, I will not fraud for you. Yeah. And like, what is that? You know, what is the impact of on us of that when folks like so devalue or are willing to talk to us again when we set a boundary around what our services are worth? Oof. 

Jelisha [00:21:58] Yes, it can be tough. 

Linzy [00:21:59] Yeah, it can. And I think, like, that’s something to really recognize and validate, like, as we’re talking about these boundaries is some of these might be easier and some of them will be harder and some of them you won’t be able to set right away. They might be things that you need to like get support from your partner or other friends to like shore yourself up to have conversations. Boundaries are hard. Boundaries are hard. 

Jelisha [00:22:18] But it does get easier. Like, would you like you feel like this particular one has gotten easier for you? I feel like it’s gotten easier for me. 

Linzy [00:22:24] Yeah, I think so. Like, I think that the parts of me that believe that I have something of value to offer, that I have value, that my friendship is also valuable. Those parts, I think, have started to get bigger relative to the parts that that put me into these positions and that help me build relationships where I wasn’t valued and where I was kind of used for many, many years. And so I think that that it’s been a big internal shift that by doing it’s kind of like fake it to make it right. Like you set the boundary first. And the first I was like, Oh, that was so hard. And then you do it again. And then eventually you start to actually believe like, No, I actually don’t deserve to be treated like this. Yeah, it’s so it does get easier. But I think in this kind of like profound deep work way, something changes on a deeper level that makes it easier the more you do it. 

Jelisha [00:23:09] Yeah. And you get responses that are like, okay, or they show up in your calendar right away and you’re like, oh my God, totally. 

Linzy [00:23:16] Yes. That is the other side of it. Right. And I have had those responses too, where people are like, oh, no, no, of course I’m paying you like, you know, set up a time and then we do great work together and then it feels great and we still have this, like, friendly relationship over here. But now – and I can think of a particular colleague who comes to mind, but now it’s also like they’re like, you know, I think of one wonderful colleague who sent me a text out of the blue of like, I have built a successful practice. It is all because of you. Thank you so much. And so it’s like we have this, like loving, collegial relationship. But also she’s actually gotten the full success of having worked with me because she paid me and we actually work together rather than her trying to pick my brain over coffee. 

Jelisha [00:23:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So everybody wins. 

Linzy [00:23:51] Everybody wins when boundaries are held. Do you have another one? 

Jelisha [00:23:54] Yeah. It’s kind of like when it’s more like let’s say you’re in a position where you’re like, I don’t really know. What if I need to set boundaries? I feel like I have them. I’m not sure. I’m wondering what I might not be, what I might be overlooking. I say, ask yourself and sort of maybe just clock over a week or two. What’s annoying you? What’s on in your business? What email are you maybe avoiding? Or are you rolling your eyes when you see? Because a lot of times that will highlight something that you- a boundary that needs to be set, reset, or clarified and likely is tied to money in some way like. It impacts your money in some way. And so that would be a way to sort of try and assess where your boundaries might be a little blurry. And so, yeah, just that’s the place that I tend to start with with clients is just kind of listening for where are their annoyances, what are, what are their frustrations? And they usually are reoccurring ones. If every week you’re like, Oh, I have two cancelations, you know, you want to like look into that and see what that might be about. 

Linzy [00:24:55] Yes, totally. When I think of that, too immediately comes to mind. I’m like, what are the the messages that I’m avoiding responding to? Those are also showing me like for some reason there’s something there that I don’t want to deal with. And when I think about the examples that come to my mind, they are boundary things with folks asking for things that I should probably be paying me for or asking another professional that they’re paying rather than asking me. So that’s a good one. And I feel like that comes exactly full circle with what I was saying at the beginning that I love about this boundary approach is like it is so personal and your body is going to tell you, right? You’re going to feel in your body like that annoyance or contraction, or you’re gonna see yourself avoiding if your boundaries are not being respected somewhere or need to be reinforced. 

Jelisha [00:25:34] Yeah. Yeah. So good glance at your calendar. Just like looking at each name I’ve done that look for and seeing what comes up and if I’m like, Oh, I can’t wait for this one to be over. It might be because these people, this couple goes over 20 minutes. They don’t go over. I let them go over. 

Linzy [00:25:50] Right. Yeah. 

Jelisha [00:25:52] You know, that’s a boundary that I need to set. And so, you know, that’s an example. 

Linzy [00:25:56] And clinically, too, it makes you think about also clients that are not right fit or where they are being inappropriate and violating your boundaries. And and I’ve talked to a therapist about this before of like how having even one or two clients on your caseload that are stressing you out or there’s just like a whole load of like transference and it’s very messy. Can like completely change your experience of your practice. Yes, you can have ten other lovely sessions that week, but those two sessions that stress the shit out of you can really impact your relationship to the work that you’re doing. And I found for myself, you know, when I talk about boundaries, those are cases where I’ve had to like refer clients out and stop working with them. And that has been really hard for me. I remember getting tons of supervision around having to have these conversations and that fear of clients reactions and like, but it was 150% the right decision in those cases where there’s somebody that I’m just dreading and I feel awful after I see them. It’s not worth the cost. I’m not I’m also not being effective as a clinician, if that’s my internal response. Exactly right. I’m clearly not actually vibing with this person in a way that’s going to be helpful for them. 

Jelisha [00:26:58] Yeah, I can totally resonate with that. 

Linzy [00:27:00] Jelisha, thank you so much. 

Jelisha [00:27:03] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:27:04] So if folks want to get further into your world, first of all, where can they find you, follow you, learn more about you. 

Jelisha [00:27:12] Yeah, they can find me at @savingthesaver. S-A-V-E-R, not savior. Saver. 

Linzy [00:27:19] Saver. That’s you, listener, are you are the saver. You save others. And Jelisha’s going to save you. 

Jelisha [00:27:24] That’s my title on everything. The website, Instagram, TikTok. 

Linzy [00:27:29] Beautiful. Yeah, you’re on Tik Tok, eh? 

Jelisha [00:27:31] Yeah. I think with that I have a different persona over there. 

Linzy [00:27:36] Do you? I know it’s good. It’s good. I quit it because I was deeply addicted, but it’s good. There’s so many good things about it. We’ll have that conversation off mic. And then if folks want to get something from you, you’ve made it- like you’ve alluded to. Tell us about this offer you have. 

Jelisha [00:27:49] You know, this is something that’s been a long time in the making that I have. I provide it to a lot of the VIP’s I’ve worked with and I’m like, People need this. And so I’ve created a set of templates, emails that you can save in your Gmail. And I’m just I’ve come up with four that are real must haves. There is a set that is just simply that you can have for when you have just general inquiries coming in. And it really like for me at least lays out and articulates the dealbreakers, all the things that might come up so that you don’t spend precious time on a consultation. And then at the end you’re, you know, having to talk about insurance or this that third and so this is the I about has tremendously increased my consultation to client conversion rate. Yeah, it’s just been helpful. So I have that. I also have one when you are raising your fee because that’s a really tough one that a lot of therapists struggle with and I say email you’re going to have the conversation. So like you’re stuck doing it. You can’t keep avoiding it. Also, if there’s being a change in availability or like what we were talking about with the the rescheduling, I have one for that. If you have a chance for that and then consultation follow up. Yeah, this is not something that I do with every consultation. But have you ever had that consultation where you’re vibing you- this client is like 110% your ideal client, you know, you’re going to book them. And then there’s a little bit of, Oh, I got to check on my work. If I can get off earlier, I have to check my husband or whatever. And so I follow up about a week later, only if I felt like, Oh, we are set, and say, Hey, just checking in, I know you were checking on X, Y, Z wanted to let you know, my door is still open. Let me know if you want to start, here’s what I need from you. If you want to start and have the time, they just need a friendly nudge reminder. I just think sometimes therapists will leave money on the table in that way. 

Linzy [00:29:41] So you’ve got these four great templates. People can just like load them into their Gmail and what is that called on your website so folks can go and get those template. 

Jelisha [00:29:48] Four must have email templates for therapists and private practice. 

Linzy [00:29:52] Beautiful. And I love this because you’re automating boundaries. Yeah, well, the last ones reach out, but like a lot of these are like, you know, it seems to me like, kind of like proactive. So go over to Jelisha’s website, Saving the saver, get these four templates. Jelisha, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Jelisha [00:30:08] Thank you, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:30:23] In that conversation with Jelisha. You know, I said it at the time, and I will say it again. I got chills talking about beliefs about helping and how helping should hurt, you know, would be the opposite. You know, she said helping shouldn’t hurt. I think that so many of us believe that helping should hurt. And we get that message from society because of who we are in society, because of our gender or race or our class. We’re told that we’re not important, we’re positioned to give ourselves away to others and not think about our own needs as valid. We also get it in our profession, right from our professional training or from our experiences of being helpers. That helping does hurt. Helping should hurt. And I think there’s even the belief that if you don’t hurt, you’re not helping. So powerful to dig into those beliefs that can really stop us from enforcing our boundaries. But if you want to have a career that lasts, if you want to stay in this profession and I think also if you want to be able to do this work, not at the cost of your your partner, your family, your parents, your kids, it is so important to find a relationship with helping that doesn’t hurt and that feels good. And where you are, you know, as Jelisha said, you know, you’re giving from a full cup, not depleting yourself for the sake of others. And these five boundaries that she shared with us today are so powerful and definitely jump over to Jelisha’s website, Saving the Saver. Love the name of her business. To get those templates, but also just to get further into her world. Because I think the work that she’s doing and the way that she’s talking about boundaries and money and private practice is such a powerful framing and such a helpful way to come at what can often be very difficult conversations to have or difficult changes to make, recognizing it as boundaries. Listening to your body for those cues that your boundaries are being violated is a really powerful way to cover that. If you want to get more content from me, you can follow me on Instagram. We are sharing free. Of course, because it’s Instagram. Practical and emotional money content on there all the time. And if you’re doing the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for other therapists to find us. Thanks for listening today. 

Roxanne [00:00:04] I say to people, take a look at what you need to earn over the course of the year. If people are coming to you asking for a sliding scale, you need to do the math ahead of time. How much of a reduction in fees will that be for you? How far are you willing to slide that scale? And set that limit and make it permanent. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. This week we have a conversation with Roxanne Francis. Roxanne Francis, as I mention at the start of our chat, is local to me. She is a Toronto-based, award-winning registered social worker and psychotherapist. She runs a group practice. She offers organizational workshops on lots of topics like race and equity, mental health and parenting. And she also supports and coaches and mentors a lot of other therapists in the field about starting a practice, everything that goes into that, and that is very much what we dug into today was her expertise in that area of mentoring so many other therapists. Roxanne and I talked about the biggest questions that therapists ask. You know, starting out their journey into private practice. We get into fees, sliding scale. And she talks about the biggest oversight that she sees therapists making as they are planning out their practice. It was a lovely conversation with and I’m really excited to share it with you. Here is Roxanne Francis. So Roxanne, welcome to the podcast. 

Roxanne [00:02:07] Thank you so much for having me Linzy, I’m really excited. 

Linzy [00:02:10] Yeah, I’m excited too. We were just saying – off mic – I was just saying that I’m excited to finally have you on because you are- I mean, to me, you are local-ish. You are Toronto-based. 

Roxanne [00:02:20] Yes yes. 

Linzy [00:02:20] I mean, we take what we can get on the Internet, right? You’re only like an hour and a half or maybe an hour drive from me. I go to Toronto to the aquarium sometimes with my toddler. 

Roxanne [00:02:28] Oh, awesome. 

Linzy [00:02:29] Very close. And your focus and your- part of your niche, because you do a lot of things. You’re a woman of several hats. 

Roxanne [00:02:37] Yes. 

Linzy [00:02:38] But you you supervise a lot of therapists. 

Roxanne [00:02:40] Yes. Yes, I do. So I have certification in clinical supervision. And so I mentor a handful of therapists, but I also run group supervision programs. And I also do individual supervision with a handful of people. I coach therapists who are new to the private practice space or who are turning their private practice from part-time to full-time. And I also supervise placement students through the University of Toronto, so I kind of liaise between the classroom and their placement location, making sure about, you know, all of their practicum needs are met and that they’re managing their practicum well. 

Linzy [00:03:22] Mm hmm. That’s like, such an impactful kind of role or multiple roles there that you play. 

Roxanne [00:03:26] Yeah. Yeah, I enjoy it. I mean, it’s multiple, but I find that it’s more or less some of the same work. 

Linzy [00:03:32] Sure. 

Roxanne [00:03:33] And it’s important to me because I find that when I was in grad school, you know, and they spread out these new clinicians, there were still a lot of questions in the how of doing the work. And so a lot of people who are new to the field or who are new to private practice have a lot of those questions and they’re not sure where to turn. So I’m happy to to provide that. 

Linzy [00:03:54] Absolutely. Yeah. I remember just how hungry I was for that kind of like mentorship and support when I was like, you know, brand new in private practice. And I was basically like kind of a brand new therapist and brand new in private practice at almost the same time. It’s like I practiced for, I think, just a year before I went to private practice. So I remember being on the other side of those kinds of relationships. So I’m curious, with all of this support and all these conversations that you’ve had with all these therapists, what is the biggest question you find that they ask over and over again? 

Roxanne [00:04:26] Yeah, it’s usually a money question. As we’re here on this podcast. It’s usually about, you know, what should I set my fees at? Right. To me, it’s such a simple question, but again I’ve been in the field for a little bit, but people will say, you know, you know, I’m new to the field. I’m not sure if I should charge this much. Or everybody else on this directory is charging this fee. I guess I should charge that as well. Or, you know, I’m a registered psychotherapist as opposed to a registered social worker. Maybe my fee should be different. Or I’ve been working at agency and I’ve never had a private practice, so maybe I should start at the bottom. And so there are all these discrepancies and misnomers about what I should charge. And I’m always telling people, first of all, think about your experience, think about your education, think about the transformation that you’re providing to people, right? I also walk them through, you know, how many weeks are you going to be working throughout the year if you are leaving a full-time job, an agency job, to get into this private practice work? You know, are you looking to replace that income? Are you looking to only make a percentage of that income? 

Linzy [00:05:32] Right. 

Roxanne [00:05:32] And so then if you plan that out over the course of the year, how many months are you going to be working? How many days per week are you going to be working? What do your bills and expenses look like? Right. And sometimes people will add up, you know, rent, car payment, electricity bill, phone bill, and then they’ll come up with this much. And then I will say, well, do you plan on eating? Do you plan on going to brunch with your girls every once in a while? You need to live. Right. And so what do those things add up to? And then let’s compare those numbers and then we can talk about what that will look like in terms of a feasible fee for you. Right. Oftentimes, people just pluck a number out of the air and say, well, everyone else is charging that, so maybe I should charge that, too. 

Linzy [00:06:17] Yes. 

Roxanne [00:06:18] You have to look at your lifestyle. And is it- is the math going to be mathing? Is it going to be adding up? 

Linzy [00:06:23] The math needs to math. It does. Yeah. And what I love and what I hear in that is even if you’re X, Y, Z, even if you’re new, even if you’re this, even if you’re that, you still need to live your life and be okay. 

Roxanne [00:06:35] Right. 

Linzy [00:06:36] Right. Because, like, almost sometimes I wonder if there is this bit of this ethos that we, you know, that’s ingrained in us as like New X, Y, Z. 

Roxanne [00:06:45] Yes! 

Linzy [00:06:45] You know, whatever your field is, that you need to pay your dues and like you’re supposed to suffer at first. 

Roxanne [00:06:50] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:06:51] You know, you’re not thinking about brunch with your friends because you’re like, well, I’m I’m not supposed to do well at first. Do you feel like that might be in there? 

Roxanne [00:06:58] Yes, I find that all the time. And as recent as last week, I said to someone – and I will put a disclaimer: no shade to dentists – but when you go to the dentist’s office and you have whatever procedure. We don’t say, well, has a dentist been in the school for 20 years or did they just graduate last year? When you go to the front desk and they tell you what the huge price is without, you know, without batting an eyelid and they’re smiling. We pay the amount and we just leave. But when it comes to our profession, we tend to ask ourselves: Mmm.. Only been in the field for a year, maybe I shouldn’t charge that much. You know – what you know is what you know – and the transformation that you provide is a transformation that you provide. And we’ve been in school for a really long time. 

Linzy [00:07:41] Yes. 

Roxanne [00:07:41] And we would not be doing this work unless we had a certain baseline of knowledge. And that knowledge has tremendous value. And so we have to charge the fee that is appropriate for you. We have to charge what we’re worth. And someone in the field for ten years and someone in the field for two years. Their value isn’t you know, there isn’t a huge difference in. Right. So we have to be mindful. 

Linzy [00:08:07] Absolutely. Yeah. Like that kind of earning your due narrative has a lot of holes in it or problems. 

Roxanne [00:08:13] Oh lots of holes. 

Linzy [00:08:14] And something that I’ve thought about before and I think I even observe this in myself is like when you’re a new therapist, you might not have five years of experience, but you’re fresh. You’re remarkably not burnt out. When you meet somebody, they’re new and you see them as a new thing rather than like, Oh, this is my 60th person with depression that I treated, right? Like, I think I, you know, I think in certain ways, you know, we do become better over time. But in other ways we don’t. Right. Like, it’s not a guarantee that you actually become a more effective clinician over time. Many people become less effective over time. Right. Yeah. And that’s something that I would always notice. This was actually one of my reasons for retiring from therapy at this time is I started to notice, like going to conferences, you know, with people who are working in my niche. And I see people were in the field for like 40 years and I’m like, oh dear. 

Roxanne [00:09:04] Gosh. 

Linzy [00:09:05] First of all, I don’t want your life. Secondly, you seem really like kind of like numb and like very blasé about like ritual abuse. That’s not a great like response to have to something so horrific. But you know, we become kind of vicariously traumatized in our own ways or we numb out to certain things to cope, right. You know, as part of kind of the occupational hazards of what we do. And that doesn’t necessarily make you a better clinician decades in. So longer is not always better. Yeah. 

Roxanne [00:09:35] You’re so right. 

Linzy [00:09:36] So, I mean, thinking about fees, like something that I know I grappled with when I was actively practicing and that I see students grapple with all the time in Money Skills For Therapists and you know, in every therapist Facebook group under the sun, is balancing what we just talked about, that fee you need to live – that like cold, hard math – with like wanting to be accessible and wanting to serve and wanting to have a sliding scale. So I’m curious, like in your perspective, can these things coexist? 

Roxanne [00:10:04] Yes, I do believe they can. And, you know, as someone who used to work in agency myself, I see the need. Right. And there are people who desperately need therapy and they can’t afford the big dollars. And there’s this creation of the haves and the have-nots and who can get therapy and who can’t. Right. And so I understand the need to- wanting to create a sliding scale. And again, I can’t tell everybody what to do, but- or anyone what to do, really, but I say to people, take a look at what you need to earn over the course of the year. If people are coming to you asking for a sliding scale, you need to do the math ahead of time. How much of a reduction in fee will that be for you? Right. How far are you willing to slide that scale? And set that limit. And make it permanent. Right. But also to ask yourself, can I see this person ongoing at this fee or is it I can see one person sliding to this point for eight sessions and then that’s it. Right. Or am I going to have one pro bono client for four sessions and then that’s it, you know, or maybe three pro bono clients for the year. Then set yourself a certain number of sliding scale clients, then set how far you’re willing to slide that scale. And then work that into your math of how much money you need to live for the year. 

Linzy [00:11:27] Right. 

Roxanne [00:11:27] Right. Otherwise, we find ourselves in a situation where we’re giving our services away because we’ve got this giant, giant, bleeding heart. 

Linzy [00:11:35] Yes, we do. 

Roxanne [00:11:36] And then we can’t afford to, I don’t know, buy shoes for our children or put food in our fridge. 

Linzy [00:11:41] Yeah. Yeah. That piece about, like that bound- the boundaries and clarity, right? It’s like, absolutely. Do it. But be clear on, like, what you can do, how long you’re willing to do it, and having that clarity. Cause I think when, when we go in and you have one person at $50, so then the next person calls and you give them $50. And what I found, you know, this happened to me when I started my practice. This is one of the things when new clinicians in Money Skills ask me. Like, What is the thing- what’s the mistake I should not make that I’m probably making right now? This is one of the things I talk about is like, yeah, you’ve got to be super clear on sliding scale from the start because I think also at first that we want to be accessible and that like, you know, bleeding heart but also, you know, social justice values and all of these that also can collide with our desperation and fear that we’re not going to fill our practice. 

Roxanne [00:12:28] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:12:28] You know, I remember at first making the joke, like, I was almost like going around like, will you be my client, will you be my client, begging everybody, I’m making a begging motion which people can’t see because it’s a podcast, but these things can combine and then suddenly, you know, you’ve made this commitment to all these people because you haven’t put limits on it, right? Because that’s part of it, too, is what I’m hearing is like have that clear conversation up front of this is the timeline of what we’re doing so that you’re setting appropriate expectations because that’s also like clinically appropriate. To make sure you’re being clear about, you know, the- what your work together is going to look like. 

Roxanne [00:12:59] Definitely, definitely. Set your quota. Stick to it. 

Linzy [00:13:02] Yes. Because something that occurs to me sometimes too- and I’ve heard people say this in different ways, but I just read an article today in The Globe and Mail, one of our Canadian national newspapers, about a woman in Ottawa who’s a single mom. She has a daughter with autism. She bought a building like I think it was like half of a duplex for her first rental property. And the tenants refuse to pay rent and they’re refusing to vacate. She was a financial advisor, so because her credit started to suffer, she lost her designation as a financial advisor and like can’t get into this building, can’t get people out of this building. And something that she wrote in there that I think – it’s very extreme her situation, but I think it also relates to a therapist is like she was like, I can’t afford to take care of these people. Right. Like, and you know, when we are sliding our scales, we’re making a conscious decision to say like, this is what I generally need, but I can help these people in this way by being clear about what you can do, because there are people who do sit on millions or billions and they could actually afford to have somebody living in their property not paying rent for a long time, and it wouldn’t impact them. This woman, it’s like literally destroying her life. Other extreme. And so for us, it’s like, what will be the impact of this for you and how long can you support this impact? Because we are kind of making this trade of we’re kind of giving them that money back rather than it coming home to our families. 

Roxanne [00:14:18] And, you know, what I also find is that there are some clinicians who I talk to who do not have a sliding scale, but what they do is they might have a very active social media presence, and so they might share general mental health tips and strategies they have. They’re very busy with, you know, email newsletters that go out, that share ‘these are some things that you can do when you have anxiety’, you know, this does not replace therapy, but here are some tips. Right. And so, you know, they leave what I like to call breadcrumbs that people can pick up if you can’t necessarily afford therapy at this time. Right. So, you know, if you have a sliding scale or if you don’t, there are still ways that we can try to do what we can to be, you know, quote-unquote, socially responsible or to offer support to the community. 

Linzy [00:15:03] Mm hmm. Yeah. I love that perspective, because that’s even still within your same brand. Like I’ve heard folks, too, talk about the idea of like volunteer, like be engaged in your community in other ways, right? Right. Yeah. What I’m hearing is even under your, you know, your therapy brand and within that, however you do, you can be helping people for free in other ways besides your one-on-one time, right? So working with all these therapists, as you do, I’m curious, what do you find people usually like overlook or forget when it comes to setting themselves up? 

Roxanne [00:15:33] Well, yeah, I find that I have a day where I sit with therapists as they’re trying to build out their practice. And one of the things that they often forget to point out is that they are going to be taking time off. Right. Or there might be a time when they might need to take some sick time away from the practice for whatever reason, as they’re setting their fee or planning, you know, the income that they expect to make, they are forgetting that they will need income during the time that they’re on vacation. Or they will need income when they are ill or when they’re taking sick time. Right. It’s really important that you factor those things in because you will need to eat when you’re on vacation. Your bills will still come when you’re on vacation. 

Linzy [00:16:17] They will. Even if you’re not home. 

Roxanne [00:16:19] Even if you’re not- and you’re expected to pay it, right? Even if you- let’s say you have to have surgery and you’re on a bit of a short-term leave, those bills will still come. I find that therapists will plan for things like maternity leave or parental leave, but they don’t plan for when they’re taking a vacation. And so you have to build that in as you’re trying to add up, you know, how much am I going to be making for the year or for the month? We need to factor that in. And so you will need to also think about that when you’re planning to set your fee as well. 

Linzy [00:16:50] Right. 

Roxanne [00:16:51] Same thing for if you expect to see a certain number of clients per week. But you know, three people no-show or they cancel within, you know, within reason and you can’t get those filled. You know, we need to factor some of those things in as well. 

Linzy [00:17:05] Totally. 

Roxanne [00:17:06] Otherwise, you set yourself up for, you know, financial uncertainty. 

Linzy [00:17:12] For sure. Yeah. And I find, like, if we’re not thoughtful like that, if we don’t think about, like, wait, what does life actually look like? Right? That’s where you can come up with magical numbers, right? Like the math can look beautiful. You’re like, okay, I’m going to see 20 clients a week and I charge 175. I’m going to work, you know, obviously, I’m working 52 weeks a year and I’m going to make a bazillion dollars. Exactly. But, yeah, that’s not how life works. And, you know, I’m curious, why do you think therapists don’t think about this? Like, what is it about a therapist as a type or as a profession that we’re not thinking about our vacation time, our sick time, when we’re planning out our futures. 

Roxanne [00:17:45] We just don’t think of ourselves. I think we, many of us who are in this field, we live this life of service, of taking care of other people, making sure other people are well. We put ourselves last. Right. We live this life where we just don’t consider ourselves. We put ourselves last. We take care of other people first, and then we wind up not planning for vacation. We wind up burnt out. We wind up ill. Right. And I also say to people, pay attention to if you’ve been a therapist for a year or two, think about, let’s say last year, when did you feel most burnt out? Maybe that’s the time you need to take vacation. Maybe that’s- as you’re planning for the next year, maybe that’s the time when you’ll need to take vacation, when you will now need to plan financially. I’m going to be off for two or three weeks this season. How can I ensure that I will have enough money for when I’m on vacation? Or there are certain seasons throughout this sort of therapy life cycle throughout the year that are not as lucrative where clients don’t come in as much. So you will need to- what will they need to put in place? Think that season. Is that what I take vacation? Is that when I run a group session? A group offering? Is that when I offer a webinar? And then you can start to supplement that income or think to yourself, okay, now it’s time for me to take vacation, but I will still need to eat, pay bills, do all these things during that season. 

Linzy [00:19:09] Absolutely. And I think, you know, that’s really helpful to think about zooming out on that. Like, I know something that I did this year, which I’ve never done before, is I took off a lot of time during the summer because I think I had this story that I don’t like summer because I do- I get really hot, I’m really pale, I’m easily sunburned, I get sunstroke. Like, I’m like kind of not maybe for, you know, hot Ontario summer. But at the same time, what I had found is a couple of years in a row, it’s like the summer goes by and it’s fall. And I’m like, Oh, man, summer’s over. Like, you know, I can’t go to the beach anymore. I can’t go for a nice hike. And so I realized that I was ending my summers with, like, regrets, that I hadn’t really taken the time to enjoy it. And as you say too, in the therapy world, often our clients are away the summer. So something else that comes up for me is like you don’t want to feel regret, like resentful because your clients are off doing fun stuff and you’re like sitting in your office being like, Doesn’t anybody want to talk to me about hard things? And so yeah, it’s also like that. Like think about, you know, like what are those kinds of trends because that can really inform. And something that, that I did this year, which I found immensely helpful, is I plan my vacation the year out. 

Roxanne [00:20:11] Yes! 

Linzy [00:20:12] So not not when it’s right like on the cusp, not when I’ve already accidentally booked something into that week I was thinking about taking off, but make that the default. Yes. And then I actually have to cancel vacation time you know, rather than try to fit it in later. That worked really well. I was really pleased with the results but yeah, I think you’re you’re absolutely right. It’s that like life of service piece and I think functionally when we build a business that basically financially doesn’t work unless we are working all the time because we haven’t paid for that time off. You do end up having to work all the time, right? Because you literally can’t afford to take time off. 

Roxanne [00:20:44] You can’t afford to take time off. 

Linzy [00:20:45] And then you’re going to get into that like worn down, possibly resentful. 

Roxanne [00:20:50] Exactly. And then, you’re no help to your clients and they don’t come back! 

Linzy [00:20:53] And you’re not living like the life that your clients think you are. 

Roxanne [00:20:57] Right? Exactly. Exactly. 

Linzy [00:21:00] Well, Roxanne, it’s been so lovely having you on the podcast today. 

Roxanne [00:21:04] Oh, it’s been great. 

Linzy [00:21:05] If folks want to find you and follow you, where’s the best social media place for them to connect with you? 

Roxanne [00:21:12] Yes, I hang out a lot on Instagram. You can find me @francispsychotherapy. You can also find me on Twitter sometimes @FrancisTherapy. You can just search my name on LinkedIn. But yeah, I’m happy to connect with individuals if they want to hang out with me. If they want to chat slide into my DMS, I’m always here. 

Linzy [00:21:29] Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Roxanne. It’s been wonderful talking with you always. 

Roxanne [00:21:33] It’s been my pleasure, Linzy. It’s wonderful to talk about this stuff. It’s my joy to pour into therapists and if therapists are out there wanting to build out their part-time private practice into a full-time private practice, I run a therapy day just for that, so people can just slide into my DMs or hit me up if they wanted to go on the waitlist for that. 

Linzy [00:21:51] Awesome. Thank you. I think that Roxanne’s point about therapists kind of living lives of service is a really good one when that is kind of our general ethos. That’s what we’ve maybe been raised to do. You know, even from a young age, always taking care of others. And then we go through professional training that just encourages that. Agencies that foster that. And then you get out on your own and what are you used to doing? But just serving others all the time and thinking about their needs. But as she pointed out, if we don’t think about things like our vacation time and our sick time, if we don’t plan those things, then we end up with practices that don’t work or we end up, you know, trying to skip being sick and skip taking vacation because we desperately need the money. So just thinking about yourself as a whole human who has needs as you’re setting up your practice or if you find you already have a practice that isn’t working, that’s something to think about, is have I actually worked in my real needs financially, energetically into my practice and my practice is taking care of me as a full person, not just my kind of like my maximum productivity version of myself, but me as I actually am. If we are not thinking of that, then we end up making practices that really don’t take care of us and actually can be quite harmful to us. So wonderful thoughts and insights from Roxanne today. If you want more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We share practical and emotional focused money content on there all the time, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It is the best way for other therapists to find the podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Aisha [00:00:01] That’s the first thing is like really allowing us to open our minds to the idea that there is a relationship between time and money, that it isn’t a one for one exchange. Although it feels like that, right, when a client doesn’t show up, we don’t get paid. There’s a one for one exchange there. But I’m talking about sustaining your business so that you can serve people with an open heart and so that you can get your needs met at the same time. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is with Aisha Shabazz. Aisha is a therapist in private practice and she’s also a private practice strategist. Her passion is helping mental health therapists create sustainable businesses, and she is absolutely a strategic thinker. And you’re going to hear that today. In our conversation today. Aisha and I dug into the three things that therapists have trouble investing in that are totally worth their time and money. And I really appreciated her answers, definitely feel like I kind of had some aha moments myself today listening to her talk, and just so appreciated her strategic thinking around ways that we can kind of reclaim our time and also reclaim money by investing in the right places in our business. Here’s my conversation with Aisha Shabazz. Aisha, welcome to the podcast. 

Aisha [00:01:58] Thanks for having me, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:01:59] So for folks who are listening, who have not had the pleasure of finding out about you yet, tell me a little bit about kind of your journey into the work that you’re doing now for therapists. 

Aisha [00:02:11] Yeah, so my journey started off after graduate school. I was really excited to enter into this new career field. I graduated with a master’s degree in social work and a master’s in social policy. So I was always looking at the systems that we were living in and the systems that our clients were interacting with. So I found myself starting my career as a medical social worker, and in the work that I had with my patients at the time, I was looking at how much time I was spending, helping them live their life with more dignity, mostly because as they were interacting with me and my colleagues, they were at a place where they didn’t know how long their life was going to last. They were entering into the medical field, recognizing that like, Oh, I haven’t been taking care of myself. How much time do I have left? So there was always this perpetuation of, of time and we would often talk about – in support groups that we would run for our patients – talking about being on borrowed time. The unique aspect of my experience and being a provider of care was that I was not necessarily taking the time to take care of myself the way that I was encouraging them to do so. 

Linzy [00:03:30] Sure. Yes. 

Aisha [00:03:31] So on one hand, I felt really great about the work I was doing. And then on the other hand, I felt like a hypocrite because I was not practicing what I was preaching to them. And so when I had the opportunity to go into private practice, I noticed that a lot of the things that I was having a lot of ease with, my colleagues were not having ease with that. Where, you know, we’re building a foundation for our practice and not necessarily going ad hoc with all of the things that we have to do because we can’t just show up to session and offer our clients care and then everything else is taken care of. Someone has to do that work. And when you’re in private practice, you essentially are doing all of that stuff and some people feel like they’re going at it with no guidance at all. So I looked at the relationship between how I was valuing my time a lot more, and I wanted to make sure that therapists had the opportunity to infuse not only their values, but also being able to ethically blend their skills with entrepreneurship. Because a lot of therapists feel very uncomfortable with the idea of selling and marketing and business because we’re oriented to not think about those things when we’re providing care. 

Linzy [00:04:44] Mm hmm. That’s so interesting that you came into the work with that, like, policy, social work blend. That gives you such a strong like systems and structure orientation that like a lot of therapists don’t have that, right. We can get really in the weeds with our clients and really into, as you say, like the care aspect, but not necessarily having the education or the kind of orientation towards thinking about the structure that we’re creating around the care that we’re giving people. So with that work that you’re doing now, with this beautiful blend that you have of like social work and systems and policy, tell me more about what that work is is looking like in terms of how you’re helping therapists. 

Aisha [00:05:22] Yes. So I consider myself a private practice strategist because I want things to feel like there is intention behind the decisions that we’re making. Again, we’re oriented as helping professionals to think about the client from a heart centered place where our feelings are leading our decisions. And yet when we’re running a business, that’s not necessarily always the only thing that we need to think about when we’re making decisions. So I help therapists in private practice strategically make decisions so that they can sustain their practice and not have it feel draining and overwhelming. Most of us have experienced burnout at this point in our careers. And, you know, my goal is to help therapists not feel as burnt out as they did before they were working for themselves. Because no one sets out to run a business to say, I can’t wait to hate this one day. They want to have some aspects of enjoying it. 

Linzy [00:06:22] Totally. 

Aisha [00:06:23] What that looks like for me is really teaching them how to look at not only the business side of things, but looking at the ethical fusion of their clinical skills. So when we’re talking about marketing and sales, how can you do this in a way that is not sacrificing the values that you have? When we’re talking about discharging clients, can we think about the ways in which we’re entering them into a different phase of their treatment without just saying, okay, we’re done, bring in the next one. So because there are a lot of business systems that are in place that we have experience working in nonprofits and agencies. And I’ve experienced this in working in the hospital system where I feel so rigid and regimented, where there is no room for us to bring in our personality and our creativity. So really helping people blend between the two. And the thing that I see therapists struggle with the most is time management, because there are so many things on our plate that we have to figure out how to manage it all. 

Linzy [00:07:25] Right. And that goes back to what you’re saying, the beginning of that work that you first started doing with folks who are on borrowed time. Time is very valuable for everybody. But certainly, I mean, I completely get and understand what you’re saying. When you talked about like starting a business, it’s like nobody builds a business being like, I can’t wait to exploit myself and hate this. But I think what often happens is we replicate the systems that we know or we don’t put structures in place, and then we create something that’s just totally overwhelming and overt, like over demanding of our time and energy. So, I mean, for folks who are listening right now, like something that I noticed sometimes with folks who do struggle with kind of like almost like stopping to work on the business, right? Or stopping to put things in place when we’re so in it and we’re so – the phrase that I use with one of my students last week is like, sometimes your business can feel like a runaway train. Like, you’re just like, you’re on it. You’re being pulled along. She kind of made the joke like, And all your money is flying out the window, right? Like just this kind of chaos that can happen. It can be really hard for therapists in that kind of space to, like, stop and and take time to, like, pay attention to things or invest in things. And I’m curious from your perspective, what have you noticed are things that therapists are reluctant to like take the time to stop and invest in or work on, but that are like absolutely worth it for them. 

Aisha [00:08:42] Yeah. So I’ll start with saying that the reason why there’s a lot of reluctance is because they don’t necessarily remember that there is a relationship between time and money and there’s an investment or an allocation of time that comes along with either making money or saving money. Oftentimes, I hear therapists say, I cannot spend this dollar amount because I can’t afford it. And I like to encourage people to consider, well, can you afford not to? 

Linzy [00:09:14] Yes. 

Aisha [00:09:14] Invest in this and this task and this technology tool and this and this and this. So that’s the first thing is like really allowing us to open our minds to the idea that there is a relationship between time and money, that it isn’t a one for one exchange, although it feels like that, right? When a client doesn’t show up, we don’t get paid. There’s a one for one exchange there. But I’m talking about sustaining your business so that you can serve people with an open heart and so that you can get your needs met at the same time. So one of the things that I noticed that therapists are reluctant to invest in is using technology tools. And for me, technology tools are a way to make things easier and putting things in an automated process, right? So one thing that I have automated in my practice are my therapy consultations. I’m still showing up for my therapy consultations and interacting with people one on one. But all of the things that go into what it means to schedule a therapy consultation, what it means to screen someone before getting on a therapy consultation, I’ve automated those things because it saves me time, it saves me energy, it saves me effort so that when I show up to the therapy consultation, I’m ready and I’m able to meet with this person who is interested in therapy as opposed to thinking about all of the things that I have on my to do list or trying to jam pack everything into one day. 

Linzy [00:10:48] Right. Yeah. And I mean, when you just said that, I notice for myself, having gone through the process of automating some things, I probably could have automated more. I’m not practicing actively right now, but I’m thinking about the difference between what I was doing every single step of the process manually versus like when I even had some automation. Like the relief that can come with that is like palpable because it’s a lot of pieces to be managing to and like, you know, a lot of to do list items, as you say, a lot of little tasks to be juggling and taking care of that. Take energy away from your ability to do your work, be present, enjoy your life. 

Aisha [00:11:22] Yes, absolutely. And it also creates what we call friction with the the client relationship. And it also delays rapport and trust being built and marketing. We talk a lot about know like and trust factor. And if we are spending time playing email and phone tag, this client on the other end might think that we’re disorganized and that possibly is further from the truth. Right? 

Linzy [00:11:49] Totally. Yeah. 

Aisha [00:11:50] And that is discouraging for us, for them to think, oh, you know, this therapist must be disorganized. I don’t want to work with them. And it just might be a simple thing of I haven’t left the time on my schedule to figure out how I can automate this process. So by not having technology tools in place, you’re potentially losing out on clients that you are well aligned to serve. But they didn’t even get the chance to meet you because they already have this idea of who you are or who you’re not. 

Linzy [00:12:19] Right. I mean, our clients come to us very vulnerable. Like, I’m thinking myself of an experience I had a couple of years ago trying to find a, like a perinatal therapist who I really needed and having a bumpy kind of experience with part of, like, the registration. Like, I think I like signed on onto her automated calendar but never got a confirmation. And it was very disorienting as a potential client. Like it’s like I think we’re so sensitive as clients when we’re going to see therapists, but people who are coming to find us are also sensitive. Like they’re looking to make sure that like you’re reliable, you’re present, you know, like you’re clear in your communication, like, and they’re looking for those things long before the first session. They’re looking for clues about who you are. 

Aisha [00:12:59] Absolutely. And I love the example that you gave, because it’s not a far stretch to the imagination that people would expect this out of any service, let alone a therapeutic service. So if you can think, well, I can’t set up automations. Well, when was the last time you scheduled an appointment and you had an automatic confirmation? Or when was the last time that someone reminded you that you had an appointment? I can’t imagine having to call all of the people that schedule consults with me, reminding them that they had an appointment. All of that is automated for me so that they can remember because life is busy, so that I can remember, and so that we can both show up prepared for our interaction together. 

Linzy [00:13:41] Yeah, right. And the investment in that on a monthly basis, like what would you say is the ballpark of how much it would cost you to kind of automate some of the types of things you’re talking about on a monthly basis? 

Aisha [00:13:51] Yeah. So I like to think of investment in in five parts. So we’re investing time. Certainly, we’re also investing energy as far as like is something energy draining or energy giving. We’re also investing effort. So how much effort does it take for me to open up my laptop? Little effort versus how much effort does it take me to write a comprehensive email? Right. Those two things are important. But what is the the effort behind it? We’re thinking about finances, of course, and we’re also looking at time and attention. So when we’re putting these five pieces together, when we’re looking at like time, attention and focus. Attention and focus is the fifth one that’s like a two for one there. But when we’re thinking about putting all of these things together, that’s what I like to encourage people to consider. Like, what is the investment and what is it costing me to not invest? But overall, I would say maybe an hour’s worth of time collectively to figure out what aspects of your therapy consultation process that you’re going to automate. As far as the costs, it really depends on how much you’re charging for a therapy session. Right. How much can you afford to lose if a client gets lost between finding your website to scheduling a therapy consultation? If there are ten people that fall between the cracks in that and you’re charging $200 a session, right? I mean, is it worth it to you to do that? I would say so. 

Linzy [00:15:27] Yeah. I love that perspective, looking at both kind of the potential lost revenue. Right. Like what is what is the kind of potential that’s right there that you’re losing because you’re not investing this? But I also love your perspective of of really delineating those different types of investment because what I see therapist struggle sometimes is they’re like, oh, like 30 bucks a month to pay for the scheduling software or something. Like, I’d rather save the money. And usually I’m like, No, don’t do that. Because as you say, there’s all these other parts of it. So it’s like maybe you’re not paying for that scheduling software. But then as you say, there’s like all this time and energy and effort that you’re doing that work instead. So you’re still investing, but you’re investing what I think is probably for most therapists, much higher value, which is your time, your you-ness, rather than investing $30 or $50 or whatever it adds up to for these automated software subscriptions. 

Aisha [00:16:19] Absolutely. In addition to the fact when you’re investing in something, you could ask yourself, what’s the return on my investment? So if I’m giving an hour of my time, but I’m getting back five because I’m not playing email tag, I’m not having to send out reminders manually. I’m showing up to therapy consultations. And those people who are scheduled are also showing up, right? So giving an hour to get five back, I would say that is also a worthwhile investment as well. 

Linzy [00:16:49] That’s great. I love that. So that’s your first one then is like these automating technologies. What else do you see therapists being hesitant to invest in? 

Aisha [00:16:58] Yeah. So marketing. 

Linzy [00:16:59] Yeah. 

Aisha [00:17:01] I cannot say it enough that marketing is definitely a worthwhile investment because, you know, the biggest secret that I tell people behind marketing is if you don’t do it, you won’t have clients. And if you don’t have clients, you don’t have a business. And that’s why we have a private practice is to serve people through therapy. When you’re thinking about marketing, I want to whittle it down even more specifically and say your website. So there are so many therapists that I meet that are saying, you know, I know a therapist that doesn’t have a website and they’re doing just fine. And it’s like, Well, let’s consider the landscape that we’re currently in now versus the landscape that that therapist is in. Did that therapist start their practice before the global pandemic? Did that therapist graduate from their program earlier than you did, meaning that they possibly have a deeper referral network behind them because that therapists have a built in referral network. There are a lot of people that have deep networks where all they have to do is pick up a phone and their caseload is full. You don’t have the same access to those resources. It would be wise for you to consider what is working for them might not work for me. And I don’t know many digital marketers who are my tried and true friends that would recommend a business owner not having a website. So having a website is something that is going to be able to give you the freedom and flexibility to explain to a potential client why you and your clinical skills are well aligned to help them with their goals, challenges and aspirations. Right. There are so many people that are like, why have a therapy directory? Isn’t that enough? No, it’s not enough because the therapy directories job is to drive traffic to their website, right? Yes. Not only from therapy seekers, but also people that are offering the therapy. That’s their primary goal. And sure, they’re going to get benefits from people giving reviews and saying, you know, oh, I was able to get a client from this therapy directory. But if we look at the percentage likelihood that people are scheduling consultations and actually becoming active clients on your caseload, if you have more space like character counts, if you have more ability to be creative, let’s say your unique voice and how you present therapy and a limitless opportunity, you’re going to be able to accomplish that through your website. 

Linzy [00:19:28] Mm hmm. I love that. And I think it makes me think again of your point about time, like investment. Right. Like, I think this is one that a lot of therapists can feel daunted just because therapists on the whole don’t tend to be very techie people. There’s not a huge amount of overlap. So there’s a lot of, I think, room for making excuses, as you say, of like, well, that person is fine. And like, you know, and I love what you’re saying because it’s basically like don’t compare apples to oranges. Right. Like, are they actually in the same context as you are? Like, are you actually the same or are there other important differences? But yeah, I think a lot of therapists are scared of tech and I see that in my own students. Some of my money students like my mastermind students who are working to expand, like websites feel like a huge hurdle for them. And I’m curious if you’ve noticed that too, or what your thoughts on for why people can have this resistance to websites specifically? 

Aisha [00:20:15] Well, I do think the reality is it’s it’s hard. It’s not easy to put your words out there. Right. It’s not easy to put yourself out there and say, here I am world. I’m ready to help you. So looking at having to put yourself out there literally and figuratively is a difficult decision to make because we’re used to being that person behind the scenes. We’re not used to being the face of a business. You know, most of us, even if we were in leadership positions, were supervisors or managers. We weren’t necessarily the face of the organization that we were working within. We were protected by several layers and boundaries within the business. But when you’re running a private practice, it’s your face on the website, it’s your face on that therapy directory. It’s your face that people are connecting with in that therapy consultation. So that can be very intimidating. And I find that that is the biggest barrier for people wanting to put out a website. The second barrier is the fact that they don’t know what to put on their websites. 

Linzy [00:21:21] Yes, right. 

Aisha [00:21:21] Like, well, what do I say? You know? And there are so many resources out there that teach you how to put your words together and present them in such a way that inspires people to say, I think I want to work with you. And lastly, the other thing, I mean, I can go on and on about websites and the the folks that are used to hearing me, they know that I’m very passionate in talking about websites. But one of the things is, is that sometimes they don’t understand the versatility of a website. So for those that are marketing on social media, the intention for social media is to keep people on their platform. And so there are people that are just going to stay on the platform if you don’t tell them to do anything otherwise. But there are opportunities for them to know you, to like you, and to trust you a little bit more deeply. And that’s where your website comes in. If you’re interested in connecting with journalists and being featured in major press publications, your journalist is going to go to your website to find out more information about you. And that’s how I’ve been able to be featured in multiple publications, because people went to my website, they looked at my blog, they said, Oh, I read this blog, and I was intrigued and that’s why I decided to reach out. Yeah. So there are multiple ways to nurture your potential audience and your potential client base, but also just serving the general public. I think that’s another of the long list of reasons why having a website is important. 

Linzy [00:22:51] Yeah, I think we are at the age of the internet where it’s like if you don’t have a website, are you real in terms of a business? I know that, yeah a Psychology Today is that when I’ve tried to find a local therapist for this, that or the other thing. Right? Like to connect somebody or to to network with them. When I find somebody on Psychology Today and they don’t have a website, there is this pause which like, of course, intellectually, I know this person really exists, but you’re kind of like, Oh, they don’t have a website. It’s kind of weird, right? Like I think that is kind of our real calling card and our real like, this is who I really am. That as you say, we get to control, right? All those platforms are about keeping you on the platform. You know, you can have a great Instagram following, but Instagram doesn’t want people to know that much more about you. They want people to keep scrolling on Instagram, but it is really powerful. But I, I completely resonate with what you’re saying about the barrier that therapists have to being seen, because I know for me in my business, both of my therapy practice, but in this business that’s been one of my greatest growth areas, is being like, here I am. Because we’re not here I am kind of people most of the time. We’re that person like at the party, like over in the corner, having a heart to heart with somebody. I just think you’ve nailed it in terms of those things. Like there’s so much truth in what you’re saying about all these barriers that we have to websites. But as you say, there’s a million reasons to have a good website. 

Aisha [00:24:02] Absolutely. And it’s okay to just start somewhere. You know, it doesn’t have to be perfect. I know that we want to put out the most polished version of ourselves because that’s what we’re used to. You know, when you’re labeling yourself as an overachiever or someone who like is perfectionism is like a coat of arms, you’re just like, no, it has to be good. And if it’s not good, I’m not going to put it out there. But here’s the thing. If you don’t put yourself out there, you’re not going to be able to accomplish the goals that you have, revenue or otherwise. So you have to start somewhere. 

Linzy [00:24:36] Yes. And I will say that my website is not very good and I know that and I’m still doing fine. I just had a conversation the other night with a friend who’s doing a massive website overhaul, like a $20,000 website overhaul. I was like, Oh, maybe I should do that one day. And she’s like, Yeah, but you’ve done great without it, so it’s like, it can be good enough, is what I’m saying. It doesn’t have to be perfect for it to still serve that function that we’re talking about. 

Aisha [00:24:59] Yeah. If you’re getting results with where your website is right now, I would say if it isn’t broke, there’s no need to fix it immediately. But if you’re looking at growth and sustainability and you know that there are some areas of your business that you want to tighten up where you want to see like, oh, I keep getting the same question over and over again, right? Is that an area of my website that I can expand. Or you know, I’m offering this new service and the service is going off really, really well, but I’m finding myself having to talk about the service one on one with referral partners, as opposed to allowing people to find it on my website for a little bit organically. So again, you could invest in the $20,000 website, or you can invest in the free templates that come along with most domain providers at this point, or somewhere in the middle. But the design element of your website, in addition to the words on your website, there is a relationship between those two and as someone who’s very passionate about writing and who works with a copywriting teacher. I am a firm believer in fine tune the words and then let the design come with time. Because, you know, branding people get stuck in there like this brand. 

Linzy [00:26:14] Totally. 

Aisha [00:26:15] And all that. And it’s like, that will come in time. 

Linzy [00:26:17] Yes. The words really matter. That’s where your voice really comes shining through. Okay, great. So number two, wonderful marketing, specifically websites. What about a third thing? I think you had a third thing, too, that you find therapists are hesitant to invest in.  

Aisha [00:26:30] Yes. So the third thing is outsourcing. And many times people think about outsourcing their therapy. They’re like, I’m in solo private practice, I’m going to start a group practice because I need to outsource therapy. People are calling me, I’m on a wait list. All these things. That is not the only way to outsource. You can outsource things that you don’t necessarily need your clinical expertize to do. So for example, do you have to have clinical expertize to go and check your mailbox? No, you don’t. You can outsource that to somebody and say, you know what, I need someone to check my mailbox, because the amount of time that it takes me to run across town, check my mail, go back. Maybe you can outsource that to somebody. Doesn’t necessarily have to be someone that is on the payroll. Right. You could have someone that you trust, like if you have a partner that is intimately involved with your business. Hey, can you go and check my mail for me? That’s something that you can outsource. So don’t think outsource, meaning, like dollars and cents you can outsource. You know, preparing for dinner. What are we going to eat for dinner? There are a lot of decision fatigue that we have to have in our business. Like after a long day. The last thing I want to do is make another decision. So if I can outsource decision making, that’s also something you can do. And again, not entirely directly related to your business, but something that can influence how you show up for your business. 

Linzy [00:27:58] Absolutely. 

Aisha [00:27:59] When it comes to business specific things, you can hire a virtual assistant to help you. One thing that I recently brought on on the consulting side of my business was a virtual assistant, and I asked her to help me archive all of my content. So I have tons of content on social media and my blog PR features and I said, you know, would be really great if I had it in one spot. So when I go to repurpose my content, I’m able to click one file and open that file and have it all there, as opposed to having ten windows open and trying to find out what email newsletters I sent out and what posts I had. So that’s something that saved me hours and hours and hours of time. Could I have done that task? Absolutely, I could have, but I didn’t need to do that task because there were other things in my business that needed my time and attention that only I can do. So outsourcing tasks is very, very important. I encourage people to consider that. But then also, it’s the timing of outsourcing as well. And I’ll speak for myself in my solo private practice. I haven’t outsourced anything. And the reason being is because everything is working really smoothly. The other reason is, is that you have to take the time to figure out how you’re going to teach someone to do the thing that you need them to do. And right now, things are running so smoothly that it’s like there isn’t anything that’s falling off my plate that I need to outsource. But with my consulting work, I’m like, there are a lot of things happening over here, so I need to outsource this thing so that I can keep them moving. So depending on the type of business you have, will determine what type of things are outsourcing and how you do those things. And you can think about them from the business perspective, but also the personal aspect as well. 

Linzy [00:29:53] Mm hmm. Yeah. I love that point about the personal because I think something that certainly a lot of folks that I work with in Money Skills is they are also parents and especially mothers. And I think, yeah, there’s 400 other decisions that you’re making that day outside of your business that all take the same bandwidth, right? Like it’s all the same brain and body doing this work. So I love that idea of it doesn’t necessarily have to be in your business to have a positive impact on your business, is what I’m hearing. Those adjacent tasks can make a big difference. 

Aisha [00:30:22] Absolutely. I think we’re often reluctant to think about ourselves in the many roles that we have and how they influence each other. So I encourage therapists to consider themselves as a person first, because we are human beings just like our clients are. Think about yourself as the therapist that’s showing up and giving care, but also the business owner and the entrepreneur. And depending on how we’re able to show up for ourselves as people, that’s going to impact how we show up as a therapist and how we show up in our business. So if you find yourself showing up more as the business owner and that’s dominating a lot of your time, take an inventory of what the other aspects of your life look like and dial it back a little bit. It’s okay to refresh things over time. 

Linzy [00:31:11] Mm hmm. Yeah, we can get really, like, as I said earlier, like, that runaway train thing of, like, a feeling like you’re being pulled along. And I think there’s also something that can feel very comfortable about overworking and like being in that role all the time, because as therapists, we get to be competent and effective and help other people and make everything better. And something that I’ve noticed is sometimes there’s other reasons why I want to stay in that space. But what I’m hearing is if we look at outsourcing, we can start to maybe reclaim other parts of our lives more too. Rather than having all of our time going to this one one hat that we wear when there are many other hats that also need our attention or that we just want to spend time being. Aisha, it has been so great talking to you today. So for people who are listening, if they want to find you and follow you, first of all, where is the best place for them to find you online? 

Aisha [00:32:03] Yeah. So it may come as no surprise the best place to find me is on my website. That is the one stop shop for everything that I talk to people about. So you can find links to my blog there. You can find links to my podcast Beyond the Session where I focus on everything that we have to do. That happens beyond the therapy session with our clients. And you can also find the checklist for things to help you figure out what to say to inspire your ideal client to say yes to working with you. A lot of times people get tossed up in this, you know, what do I say in my marketing and how do I market? And what do you mean know, like, and trust? So we really break down. Very simply, it’s a it’s a growing list of questions. I think at now it’s about 20 questions where you can infuse and the different phases of your – what I call your therapy consultation process – or looking at the things that you’re going to do before your therapy consultation. And a lot of that marketing and attracting people what you’re doing during the therapy consultation or that acquisition or acquire phase and then after. So that retention phase and if we have all three of those things together, then you’re more likely to have a sustainable practice. So that free checklist is available to you there. And if you are interested in learning more about how to automate things, especially when it comes to welcoming people into the therapy consultation process, I do have a client inquiry form template where it walks you through how to create a client inquiry form so that you can automate some of your processes for your practice. 

Linzy [00:33:43] Beautiful, beautiful, wonderful. So you can find those on your website because websites are important. That’s what we’re taking away for today. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. So many valuable pieces and folks are listening. If you’re curious, definitely take a minute now to go check out Aisha’s website and get those great, great freebies. In this conversation with Aisha, the thing that really stuck out to me just so much was about automating those onboarding processes. I think that her her point about, you know, think about how many places now have automated and you know, what it’s like to like not get appointment reminders both as a client not having that and having to manage it, but also as a therapist, you know, getting somebody booked in and not having the systems in place to make sure that they actually are reminded of their appointment. Both of you lose that client loses that appointment with you. You lose that client income depending on your policies. And I see so often therapists be kind of fearful and sometimes mistrustful about technology. And certainly, you know, it’s up to all of us to find what is comfortable with us and really jives with the experience we want to create for our clients and our own beliefs. But certainly, as I was saying, a little automation can go a long way. And clearly, she has a lot more to offer around creating a smooth onboarding process and an automated client consultation process with your client. So this is an area where you’ve had any kind of like bumps or you struggle or you find yourself doing things that maybe could be done automatically. Instead, I would definitely suggest that you check out Aisha’s resources. I think that a little bit of effort here goes a long way and saves you a lot of time and energy and money. If you want more from me, you can follow me on Instagram, we post free, practical and emotional money content on there all the time. You can find me at @moneynutsandbolts and if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over and leave review on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way for other therapists to find us and take part in these conversations about therapists and money. Thanks for joining me today. 

Kelly [00:00:04] They don’t want to know what it’s really going to take to get to the practice that’s ideal. They’re like, I’m okay with just enough for now. But we really try to challenge that and be like, You need to understand what the full picture is to take care of yourself so that you can do this work long term. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guests are, as they say, not quite the O.G. in like the therapist consultant space, but pretty close. And that is Kelly and Miranda from ZynnyMe. Today we get into so many things. This conversation covered a lot of ground, starting with the importance of understanding your business numbers. We talked about the business numbers that often therapists try to ignore and why you shouldn’t do that. We talked about having your eyes on the overall numbers and the importance of understanding your overall picture in your private practice and your business finances. Not just focusing on those kind of vanity numbers, those sexy numbers that we all like to talk about, like revenue or profit. But ultimately, we really got into the importance of building a business that actually supports you and your life, and that at the end of the day, no number is going to replace meaning balance connection. And it was just such a rich conversation. I just I was very much vibing with Kelly and Miranda during this conversation. We are on the same page on many, many things. It was exciting to talk to them and we also covered at the end we get into that very first step. If you’re listening to the episode and you’re like, okay, I do want to get my business aligned so it actually takes care of my life. We talk about the first step that you can take to building a business that actually takes care of you and your life. Here are Kelly and Miranda from ZynnyMe. So Miranda and Kelly, welcome to the podcast. 

Miranda [00:02:38] We’re so delighted to be here. 

Kelly [00:02:40] Thank you for having us. 

Linzy [00:02:41] Yeah, I was I was just saying I’m sure many, many folks listening know who you are. You were one of the names that was around when I started building Money Nuts & Bolts, my business, in 2018, which seems like eons ago in the online business space, because I think there weren’t a lot of people doing what you do at that time. Is that true? 

Kelly [00:03:01] We’ve been together since 2010, and before that Miranda was also doing consulting. So it’s been a long time that we’ve been around where that kind of- 

Miranda [00:03:10] We’re not quite the O.G. 

Kelly [00:03:11] No, we’re not. 

Linzy [00:03:13] You’re not?

Miranda [00:03:14] Actually part of like the handful of maybe five people. And we were kind of the newbies coming in at that time.

Linzy [00:03:23] Right. Yes. So you’ve worked with a therapist or two over the years, I would assume. 

Miranda [00:03:27] Just several tens of thousands. It’s fine. 

Linzy [00:03:31] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. Tell me a little bit about kind of your courses now. Like we don’t have to get that deep, but what are what do you do with therapists, just to get us kind of grounded in where you’re coming from? 

Kelly [00:03:43] Yeah, we have a primary course. It’s our business school for therapists. It’s a lifetime access program that grows with every stage of practice. So- and our way of looking at things is we believe in having great outcomes clinically, while also improving your income and financial well-being and having a good life, whatever that looks like to you. None of those should be sacrificed. That’s how we define success. The client benefits, the clinician benefits, and your legacy benefits. So that is a- that’s our main course that we’ve been working with therapists on for- since two- I mean, long time-. 

Miranda [00:04:22] 2013, we did a couple of other courses before that where we would do a standalone course for different aspects and then we would find all the holes where people really didn’t understand how to be a business owner. And we saw how it was impacting them clinically. They would come to us, Yeah I want to launch a course. We’re like, Cool, let’s launch a course. And then we find out, Oh, your whole business, your private practice, is kind of a dumpster fire right now. You’re trying to build a course to save that. But like, what if we, like, put the fire out and we took care of that and then we could still do a course. But like let’s do this first and that, let’s not just replicate the same issues that made you hate your private practice in another core offering. 

Linzy [00:05:07] And isn’t that the temptation? I think. Like the next shiny object, the next exciting thing. Yeah, yeah. 

Miranda [00:05:14] So many times. And I think that that place of understanding and breathing into and it’s it’s a trauma response. Right. Let me run from this thing that’s not working. Let me fight about this thing. Let me just people please. 

Kelly [00:05:28] Stick my head in the sand. 

Miranda [00:05:28] Stick my head in the sand. Yeah, and it doesn’t help. 

Linzy [00:05:31] No, no, certainly not. So in the work that you’ve done with tens of thousands of therapists over the years, I know that you also, you know, dig into people’s numbers with them, which is essential to have a healthy business. So I’m curious, with the work that you’ve done. First of all, tell me about kind of what some of the things that you’ve done with folks around business finances, because I feel like there’s lots of folks who do money mindset, fees, but like business finances the more like nitty gritty. Not a lot of folks are doing. But I know you do this. So tell me about that work that you that you do with folks. 

Miranda [00:06:05] We started years ago when we started the business school with like, oh, here’s a little mini calculator of like calculating your fee. And then we realized people were missing things, right? They weren’t planning for retirement. They weren’t paying for savings. They didn’t know what expenses they needed. And so over time, we developed basically a piece of software with like macros and things built into Excel where they could fill out all of these questions and then it would say at the end, here’s what your fee should be based on all this information. And it even integrates their ideal schedule, how many weeks off they need for sick, for whatever- there are for all of these different things that we saw that people were missing over time. Yeah. And then in our business school, they could come and, now that they have everything in one place, they could ask for support. They could upload it to us, we could look at it, make a video, and give them feedback. And what we found, which is really fascinating, was that even now that they have the cell by cell question by question, there were certain things that people kept skipping. And that they would still ignore. And now it wasn’t, Oh I forgot. Now it wasn’t, Oh, I didn’t know. It’s right there. 

Linzy [00:07:13] It’s like right in your face. 

Miranda [00:07:15] It’s right in your face. So for us as business coaches, we could then see that and then we could dive into what was underneath. And that’s where sometimes some of the- not just money mindset, but also family of origin issues, some of the like real deep wounds that people were carrying around, around their sense of worthiness, am I good enough as a human? Am I good enough as a therapist? How these are showing up even in just answering questions on a spreadsheet. 

Linzy [00:07:48] First of all, that spreadsheet sounds like a dream. I’m like salivating at the thought of that spreadsheet. So high five. Because I have spreadsheets that I’ve made that play with aspects of that and- but like the idea that you have this all built together over the years is incredible. So. And so telling that folks would skip questions that were like literally right in front of them. So, of course, I want to know, what did people like to skip. 

Kelly [00:08:16] That big one that they skipped understanding the tax situation. 

Linzy [00:08:20] Oh, yes. 

Kelly [00:08:21] They want to skip self-employment tax. They literally will take it out sometimes, even though we have it automatically put in there. 

Linzy [00:08:28] No way. 

Miranda [00:08:29] Someone just today. Just today. Literally, went and like they just deleted it. They didn’t even put zero. They just took it out.

Linzy [00:08:35] Right. They’re like, No. 

Miranda [00:08:38] And left themself with 15% taxes, federal and state. Everything together. 

Kelly [00:08:40] And then there’s this lack of- really it’s a Google search ya’ll. Just go see what your state income tax rate is. For those that are listening here who are like, I don’t know: you can Google search it and find out. So the taxes are a big one. The other thing is, is we teach from the perspective of here’s the must haves in your expenses and this is the ideal practice expenses. So, for example, when you’re starting out, maybe you aren’t going to account for your disability insurance. You’re not quite there yet because you’re just getting the essence of what your expenses are. But essentially, we want you to build into saving for tech changes. Your computer will break, your phone will break. You will need upgrades. You will need sick leave that you save for yourself. Retirement. Maybe health insurance. And those are often people just leave them blank. They don’t want to know what it’s really going to take to get to the practice that’s ideal. And they’re like, I’m okay with just enough for now, but we really try to challenge that and be like, You need to understand what the full picture is to take care of yourself so that you can do this work long term. 

Linzy [00:09:51] Yeah, absolutely. 

Miranda [00:09:52] And they’ll do things like, which is really interesting, they’ll have this as their side practice and they’ll have an agency job or another position where they’re getting their health insurance and where they’re getting paid, you know, $18 an hour or something like ridiculous. But they’re so scared of what the numbers would look like if they were to put that health insurance. And it looks like such a big number that they don’t compare and realize, oh, I’m actually not really getting paid that much at an agency or this nonprofit. I really could do this on my own. And they will create this dynamic where they’re trapped because of their benefits when it’s really not true. 

Linzy [00:10:33] Yeah, I think it’s this idea that benefits need to be provided by somebody else. Like they’re really expensive, really prohibitive. It’s better to stay almost anywhere if you can get benefits. 

Kelly [00:10:44] I mean, it’s just a new system to understand and learn. And as we’ve grown, where we used to get benefits on our own, and now we provide them for our staff. You know, it changes. Just the way you do it in your business. But I think taking in consideration especially group practices like learning how to grow into what those benefits may look like, that’s another thing that sometimes they’re like, I’ll just pay them more. Well, actually, you may do better to increase their benefits first than to pay them more. So we have like pay scales to figure out, like, how do you give a raise, not just randomly, how do you do it in a way that’s equitable and we’re really big on equitability, like when it comes to money. So that’s something that group practice owners also struggle with when they not only do the benefits for themselves, but then they bring that into providing something for their employees. 

Miranda [00:11:36] I think that’s the other thing that I see in general, too, because our our Excel spreadsheet, at the point that they’re ready to go into a group, they they actually put- they check a box and the spreadsheet completely changes for them as a group practice owner. Like how cool is that? 

Linzy [00:11:50] Oh, man, I’m really- I just need to say this spreadsheet sounds like the bomb. 

Miranda [00:11:58] It’s so juicy. But what we would find is that people would, before we had this spreadsheet and help them see the numbers of the profitability, they would create a dynamic where having employees, their gross income would go up, but their actual net income would go down over and over again. And they would be working more. They would keep a case load. They wouldn’t at all adjust for any of these things. So to help them understand sweat equity, help them understand how much time it’s going to take to launch the group practice, the additional expenses, and to see that it’s not just, oh, well, I don’t want to take 50% of their money, because they haven’t adjusted for you’re going to be spending 100 hours maybe in launching this group practice and an extra 5 to 15 hours a week sometimes. In a large group practice, maybe more. That you realize, oh, I’m working so hard to make sure they’re paid well, you’re not being you’re not paying yourself. And you would have made more money to just stick with what you were doing and increase your fee by $10. That would have been a better decision than bringing on your friend because it’s going to be really easy and it’s going to be pure profit. 

Linzy [00:13:09] Gosh, yes. Yes, all of that. Yeah. I think everybody I think – because I think it’s a societal message – but certainly I see therapists fall into this like you do. This idea that more more is more right, that like more revenue means that you’re going to have more money. But if you don’t build the machine properly, I’ve been thinking more and more lately of this metaphor of like our businesses are machines and group practices are such complex machines. There’s so many variables that you need to set and that like so many decisions to make, and if you set it up wrong, you can absolutely build something that makes you less money, loses you money, will never make money, even if you’re seeing a thousand clients a month in your group. But it’s easy to want to skip that part and just go with, you know, Oh, more money’s coming in the door, so everything is better. 

Kelly [00:13:50] And I think some of that can come from people pleasing or just a lack of not understanding the systems, not really understanding how payroll works and all the expenses. Because when you hire, there’s just a hiring cost. You got to know like how long it takes before you even break even, let alone when there’s a profit. So it’s just a new level of learning and coming in to- I think some people definitely I struggle with this- hate the system. We struggle with some of the systemic issues and so we avoid it. But the reality is, how do I work within it so I can still serve well and not burn myself out? We talk about standing in the gap. There is systemic issues and oppression and brokenness that not you as an individual can fill. You can hold to your values and then fight for a better system. But I think there’s some of that that also comes up. We talk a lot about like intersectional lens when we look at money and why people sometimes avoid these things. 

Miranda [00:14:52] I think the other thing that I see a lot and it’s and it’s I think there’s I really believe in community. I believe in therapists coming together and supporting each other is absolutely magical. And I’ve really seen that if you’re in the – I’m going to say the wrong community or if you’re in an ineffective community – you can end up like you’re going to look like the rest of your community. And so a lot of times you see people say, oh, people say you can’t make money with insurance. I made $1,000,000 last year. Right. Now, they’re not talking about profitability. They didn’t share how many hours a week they worked. They didn’t share whether they were paying their employees well, right. They they shared nothing more than this big number on the top. And they didn’t share their reimbursement rate. Because in Ohio, you might be getting a reimbursement rate for a 90837 of $143, and the average house price is 300,000. And in L.A., it’s $68 and the average house price is 650 for like a one bedroom. 

Kelly [00:15:58] If that. 

Miranda [00:15:58] So yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s this like weird space where sometimes people are sharing things out of context. They don’t even know what they don’t know. They don’t know what their own profitability is. And then I see these, these really well-meaning people go, Oh, I’ve been successful. I’m going to have another stream of income and I’m going to start coaching other therapists. And now I’m going to share how to replicate what I did when I don’t- and I need more income because what I did isn’t actually profitable. That’s what I have- that’s why I got to make time to do this. And then they take them down the same path, just completely unaware. 

Linzy [00:16:37] Yeah. And I mean, it kind of goes back to exactly what you were talking about at the beginning, which is knowing all of the numbers. Right. We’re talking about a different set of numbers right now, but it’s still the same thing. It’s like, sure that there’s a number on the top, but all of the numbers are actually what paints the picture together, not just like your revenue or your fee or the sexy numbers, as you say. Those tell such a small portion of the story. Like sometimes I almost like to say like revenue is is almost insignificant and that’s obviously being hyperbolic. Obviously revenue matters, but you really could be bringing $1,000,000 into a practice and spending, you know, 999,950 on running the business. Like that- that is actually possible if you’re not talking about the rest of the picture. 

Kelly [00:17:20] Yeah, I think too, that goes with profitability too. I know people think like, oh, that’s the number. But at the end of the day, you can make all the money in the world and if you’re not happy, if you aren’t healthy. If you were working like 24/7. That’s not really great to me. I’d rather make less money and be a good human. 

Miranda [00:17:38] Yeah. I mean, we’ve been in groups with other practice coaches and people who are out there and you’re like, It’s two in the morning, you’ve been drinking for 6 hours and you’re running payroll. At 2am. Like, What is happening? Like, something’s out of balance. Like, you know,. 

Linzy [00:17:54] Is this your best life? 

Miranda [00:17:55] Is this really like- and you’re helping other people. Or I was sitting with an amazing business owner, amazing human. Love him. And we’re having this conversation. We haven’t seen each other in like a year. And he’s every every 2 seconds he’s on his text. And he said, Well, you know how it is. And I said, No. I said, No, that’s just not how I do do life. We had a very different vision of what this is going to look like, and we had a different set of circumstances of like, Hey, here’s the age of my child and I want to pick them up from school and I want to be present with him. And that makes- that’s more important to me than a big payoff right now. And, you know, I want to make sure that I’m making a great income and making great profit. But if it’s at the expense of a connected relationship with my child, like, No, thank you. 

Linzy [00:18:46] Absolutely. And you’re- I mean, you’re very much speaking my language. I literally talk about this topic because I- my son is three and a half. 

Kelly [00:18:53] Awwww. 

Linzy [00:18:54] And three and a half is such a precious age and it’s different than three and it’ll be different than four. You know, like when they’re little, they change so quickly. And I’m sure it probably feels that way all the way through parenthood, but especially the way that I came into doing this work full time, is I had a one year mat leave because I’m Canadian, so I had a long time to think about like, what do I want my working life with my child to look like? And I even personally made the decision to stop being a therapist. I stopped practicing to be emotionally available for him because of the emotional impact of the work I was particularly doing. And I think it’s such an easy part of the picture to want to skip because there’s so many stories about money that like money in itself brings happiness. That like that you’ll be happy later. It’s like when you hit this milestone. 

Kelly [00:19:34] When I retire. 

Linzy [00:19:35] When you retire. And like some people don’t retire, like we don’t all make it there. And so, you know, I have almost this very like heavy mortality view of it, but it’s just life is happening now. We know that for sure. And financially, I don’t think it’s a great thing to bet it all on the future. 

Kelly [00:19:50] Yeah. 

Miranda [00:19:50] No. 

Linzy [00:19:51] To bet that fulfillment and connection and meaning will come later. You know, in ten or 20 years when you built up a certain number. 

Miranda [00:19:57] It’s absolutely now. And I you know, I was thinking about that actually over this weekend, we went to a retreat and there were people there in their sixties on this retreat saying, I’m still trying to find my sense of self and value. Right. 

Kelly [00:20:09] And I don’t know how to stop work. 

Miranda [00:20:10] I don’t know how to stop working. I don’t know how to find value. When is enough enough? What does this look like? I don’t know what life is going to look like. I don’t know how to be connected to my partner. I don’t know how to be connected to another human because this has been my focus. I don’t want to be there at 60. I think there’s a better way. 

Linzy [00:20:28] Yes. Yeah. Well, I think it sounds like you’re already living the better way, you know, to give credit where credit is due. Is that fair to say? Is it still a work in progress? 

Kelly [00:20:37] Yeah, and that’s taken a lot of intention and it’s been a lot of foibles with money. Like as this has grown and we’ve added staff, I’ve learned too, you know, of different ways to do it even better and to and to instill this in our staff, to promote this in our staff. Like at the end of the day, like we’re in the middle of a launch, messaging them of: you are not to overwork, be proud of what you’ve done to contribute to this, you’re an integral part, and you have a life. Go live your life. You know of those kinds of things of like really creating a culture of not just within our family and our family legacy, but in the lives of people who work with us so that they know that work is just one outlet for using your gifts. And there’s many other things about life that are good. 

Miranda [00:21:23] And like you get to set a schedule that works for you and you don’t need to work Fridays. There’s no reason for us to be doing five days a week. And let’s make sure that you’re taking time off and that we’re like really getting to know you as a human, although sometimes that goes badly. We had a staff, we’re like, how can we like say thank you to the staff? And I was like, He loves haunted houses. And I’d heard about this haunted house. And I was like, What about this? He’s like, Have you read the reviews? I’m like, No, I don’t do a haunted house. He was like, They shave 17 into people’s heads. 

Kelly [00:21:52] And they electrocute you.  

Linzy [00:21:58] We’re trying to connect with you. 

Miranda [00:22:00] You know, pieces of knowing someone to be human and be like, I want to like speak to love language of my employees. And and support them in a way and not just put my stuff on them.  

Linzy [00:22:14] So, you know, for folks who are listening, you know, we’ve been talking about the numbers. We started by talking about how it can be hard to look at certain numbers. And now I think we’ve landed on one of my passion topics, and obviously yours too, which is the balancing of life and meaning and how money can bring that into your world. But money doesn’t replace connection, time with family, meaning. So for someone who’s listening right now who’s like, okay, I’m kind of buying in. Maybe I need to start getting my numbers working. Maybe I need to. Maybe that’s the key to actually getting the life that I want. What would be a starting place for them? Where would you suggest that they start? Just a little baby step that they could take, even today. 

Miranda [00:22:55] Perfect day exercise. Yeah. Doing a: if I woke up in the morning, not on a vacation day, not after I won the lottery, but like a perfect day; if I was moving through my day at a pace that really worked for me; if I had time for my family, my relationships, for myself, or for my health; if I was really doing the work that just inspired me and that energized me throughout the day and working at a pace that really worked for my body. What would that look like moment by moment? Can I set a foundation for what that looks like? So now I know what time I would go into work, how many clients I would see, what kind of break I would have between them, if any. How much of a lunch break? What I would do. What I would eat. When I would come home. What kind of connection time I would have. How many days a week I would work. All of these different pieces. And then that sets this foundation for the numbers. How many clients can I really see? How many hours am I working total? Because there is going to be some working on the business, not just in the business. 

Kelly [00:24:07] Maybe there’s some additional expenses that I need to be considering, like having a VA, having a bookkeeper, or having a financial advisor, so that these things in my life are easier. So that day informs, then, the expenses. Then to know how to, based off of what Miranda is saying in the caseload size and how much you’re working. You take those expenses and then you can get really clear on the numbers. Instead of doing: this is the practice I have to have right now. If you’re starting, you are in at at an advantage. You can actually create, from now moving forward, the practice you want. If you have been in practice for a long time, it’s not that you’re at a disadvantage. It’s just that you have to undo some things, like take a few steps back and rebuild and revision. All it takes is really knowing where you’re headed. And that can change. We recommend that perfect day exercise any time you feel stuck. Any time there’s a life change. Once a year at minimum. Is this still on- online for what I want for my life and business? 

Linzy [00:25:09] I love how that exercise starts with embodiment because I think that that’s a piece that can so often be missing, both in business and in finances. And this is part of my passion of talking about money in the way that I do is actually bringing like our bodies and our emotions and our ourselves into these conversations because it can be so tempting. I think even as therapists, too, and helpers and self-sacrificers and overachievers to like live up in our heads and like find the number that’s the right number. And you live your life from your head of like hitting a certain amount of clients a day, helping everybody, living up here. And if you’re overdoing it, you actually have to live in your head because your body feels terrible. You don’t want to be down there because you’re exhausted. And so I love how you start with the body. It’s just such a wise place to start as we’re thinking about how money can support us and build the life that we actually want. 

Kelly [00:25:57] Yeah, we just finished a training where we talk about if you look at indigenous cultures and what they really value is that body, mind, heart, spirit balance. Right. Of working, operating in alignment with all of those four things. And so that’s something we try. We’ve been bringing more and more to our work of what does your body say? What does the heart say, what does Spirit say? Because we know probably what the mind says. Most people in Western culture have the mind locked down and it’s these other three that need attention and integration in order to lead you towards that vision. 

Miranda [00:26:33] And it was interesting again during doing this training last week and it was all about business planning and everyone’s like, Yeah, on the mind. And then we got to the other part and people were like, Oh, oh, this, I didn’t even realize, oh, I’m, I’m crying like I’m tearing up. Like, this is what I’ve been missing. And again, here’s this group of, you know, hundreds or thousands of therapists that are living up here. And we’re trying to teach our clients to be integrated, but we’re not. Because there’s no space, because that’s not what they taught us in grad school.  

Linzy [00:27:12] No, no. Oh, that’s beautiful. That makes my body feel very happy to know that that work is happening. So, Miranda and Kelly, if folks want to find you, where is the best place for them to follow you? Find you?

Kelly [00:27:24] Yeah. The best way to find us is to go to ZynnyMe.com and if you go to free, slash free, you’ll get- we have over 15 hours of free training. 

Miranda [00:27:33] Can’t really go wrong with that. 

Linzy [00:27:35] Yeah, that’s a good place to start and stay. 

Kelly [00:27:37] One of them has that perfect day exercise in it, actually. 

Linzy [00:27:39] Oh perfect. 

Kelly [00:27:41] Anyone want to try that. 

Miranda [00:27:41] Yeah. And of course, you can get on the interest list for our next round of business school if you want something holistic to come and play and a wonderful, safe community, we’re going to dig in with all the numbers and also do meditations and marketing and SEO and all that juicy stuff. So check it out. 

Linzy [00:27:59] Sounds wonderful. Great. Thank you so, so much, both of you, for joining me today. 

Kelly [00:28:04] Thank you. 

Miranda [00:28:05] Thank you, Linzy. I love that someone who’s so deep in the numbers is so deep in the embodiment and the spirit in the soul. Like as we’re having the ending part of the conversation, like I got tingling all over. Like I’m just like, yay, I feel like we just met a new, like, friend. 

Linzy [00:28:23] I feel exactly the same. This was- I’m very glad to have met you in this context, and I’m so excited about the work that you’re doing. 

Kelly [00:28:30] Thank you Linzy. 

Linzy [00:28:44] I was so appreciative and also kind of pleasantly surprised that the conversation with Kelly and Miranda ended basically with embodiment and starting from your body. I think it’s so easy as therapists, especially for perfectionists and overachievers, and I know many of you identify those ways. It’s so easy for us to live from our heads, live from our heads in our businesses, live from our heads in our lives, trying to, like, do it right, you know, do it perfectly. I hit these certain goals that we’ve decided are important in our minds, but not actually listen to our bodies and not actually be in ourselves in the work that we do or in our daily lives, because we’ve set up businesses that kind of exploit us and that exhaust us and that have us serving others so much that our own life is actually kind of pale and and tired and we’re not showing up and being present in the way that we want to, and we don’t feel proud of that. So I loved the wisdom at the end of just like coming back to embodiment, being present with yourself, thinking about what you actually want your life to look like and thinking isn’t even the right word. Really connecting with what you want your life to look like. That perfect day exercise I think is so valuable. And building a practice that actually serves you not just in your head, not just in your goals, not just in your numbers, but in your body. And that actually creates a life that nurtures and supports you. There’s so much wisdom in that. Just so appreciative of this conversation today with Kelly and Miranda. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. I share free, practical and emotional money and private practice finance content on there all the time. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It will take you like literally 2 minutes, and it really helps other therapists who want to be hearing these conversations to find me. Thanks for listening today.