In this Episode...

Kelly [00:00:04] They don’t want to know what it’s really going to take to get to the practice that’s ideal. They’re like, I’m okay with just enough for now. But we really try to challenge that and be like, You need to understand what the full picture is to take care of yourself so that you can do this work long term. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guests are, as they say, not quite the O.G. in like the therapist consultant space, but pretty close. And that is Kelly and Miranda from ZynnyMe. Today we get into so many things. This conversation covered a lot of ground, starting with the importance of understanding your business numbers. We talked about the business numbers that often therapists try to ignore and why you shouldn’t do that. We talked about having your eyes on the overall numbers and the importance of understanding your overall picture in your private practice and your business finances. Not just focusing on those kind of vanity numbers, those sexy numbers that we all like to talk about, like revenue or profit. But ultimately, we really got into the importance of building a business that actually supports you and your life, and that at the end of the day, no number is going to replace meaning balance connection. And it was just such a rich conversation. I just I was very much vibing with Kelly and Miranda during this conversation. We are on the same page on many, many things. It was exciting to talk to them and we also covered at the end we get into that very first step. If you’re listening to the episode and you’re like, okay, I do want to get my business aligned so it actually takes care of my life. We talk about the first step that you can take to building a business that actually takes care of you and your life. Here are Kelly and Miranda from ZynnyMe. So Miranda and Kelly, welcome to the podcast. 

Miranda [00:02:38] We’re so delighted to be here. 

Kelly [00:02:40] Thank you for having us. 

Linzy [00:02:41] Yeah, I was I was just saying I’m sure many, many folks listening know who you are. You were one of the names that was around when I started building Money Nuts & Bolts, my business, in 2018, which seems like eons ago in the online business space, because I think there weren’t a lot of people doing what you do at that time. Is that true? 

Kelly [00:03:01] We’ve been together since 2010, and before that Miranda was also doing consulting. So it’s been a long time that we’ve been around where that kind of- 

Miranda [00:03:10] We’re not quite the O.G. 

Kelly [00:03:11] No, we’re not. 

Linzy [00:03:13] You’re not?

Miranda [00:03:14] Actually part of like the handful of maybe five people. And we were kind of the newbies coming in at that time.

Linzy [00:03:23] Right. Yes. So you’ve worked with a therapist or two over the years, I would assume. 

Miranda [00:03:27] Just several tens of thousands. It’s fine. 

Linzy [00:03:31] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. Tell me a little bit about kind of your courses now. Like we don’t have to get that deep, but what are what do you do with therapists, just to get us kind of grounded in where you’re coming from? 

Kelly [00:03:43] Yeah, we have a primary course. It’s our business school for therapists. It’s a lifetime access program that grows with every stage of practice. So- and our way of looking at things is we believe in having great outcomes clinically, while also improving your income and financial well-being and having a good life, whatever that looks like to you. None of those should be sacrificed. That’s how we define success. The client benefits, the clinician benefits, and your legacy benefits. So that is a- that’s our main course that we’ve been working with therapists on for- since two- I mean, long time-. 

Miranda [00:04:22] 2013, we did a couple of other courses before that where we would do a standalone course for different aspects and then we would find all the holes where people really didn’t understand how to be a business owner. And we saw how it was impacting them clinically. They would come to us, Yeah I want to launch a course. We’re like, Cool, let’s launch a course. And then we find out, Oh, your whole business, your private practice, is kind of a dumpster fire right now. You’re trying to build a course to save that. But like, what if we, like, put the fire out and we took care of that and then we could still do a course. But like let’s do this first and that, let’s not just replicate the same issues that made you hate your private practice in another core offering. 

Linzy [00:05:07] And isn’t that the temptation? I think. Like the next shiny object, the next exciting thing. Yeah, yeah. 

Miranda [00:05:14] So many times. And I think that that place of understanding and breathing into and it’s it’s a trauma response. Right. Let me run from this thing that’s not working. Let me fight about this thing. Let me just people please. 

Kelly [00:05:28] Stick my head in the sand. 

Miranda [00:05:28] Stick my head in the sand. Yeah, and it doesn’t help. 

Linzy [00:05:31] No, no, certainly not. So in the work that you’ve done with tens of thousands of therapists over the years, I know that you also, you know, dig into people’s numbers with them, which is essential to have a healthy business. So I’m curious, with the work that you’ve done. First of all, tell me about kind of what some of the things that you’ve done with folks around business finances, because I feel like there’s lots of folks who do money mindset, fees, but like business finances the more like nitty gritty. Not a lot of folks are doing. But I know you do this. So tell me about that work that you that you do with folks. 

Miranda [00:06:05] We started years ago when we started the business school with like, oh, here’s a little mini calculator of like calculating your fee. And then we realized people were missing things, right? They weren’t planning for retirement. They weren’t paying for savings. They didn’t know what expenses they needed. And so over time, we developed basically a piece of software with like macros and things built into Excel where they could fill out all of these questions and then it would say at the end, here’s what your fee should be based on all this information. And it even integrates their ideal schedule, how many weeks off they need for sick, for whatever- there are for all of these different things that we saw that people were missing over time. Yeah. And then in our business school, they could come and, now that they have everything in one place, they could ask for support. They could upload it to us, we could look at it, make a video, and give them feedback. And what we found, which is really fascinating, was that even now that they have the cell by cell question by question, there were certain things that people kept skipping. And that they would still ignore. And now it wasn’t, Oh I forgot. Now it wasn’t, Oh, I didn’t know. It’s right there. 

Linzy [00:07:13] It’s like right in your face. 

Miranda [00:07:15] It’s right in your face. So for us as business coaches, we could then see that and then we could dive into what was underneath. And that’s where sometimes some of the- not just money mindset, but also family of origin issues, some of the like real deep wounds that people were carrying around, around their sense of worthiness, am I good enough as a human? Am I good enough as a therapist? How these are showing up even in just answering questions on a spreadsheet. 

Linzy [00:07:48] First of all, that spreadsheet sounds like a dream. I’m like salivating at the thought of that spreadsheet. So high five. Because I have spreadsheets that I’ve made that play with aspects of that and- but like the idea that you have this all built together over the years is incredible. So. And so telling that folks would skip questions that were like literally right in front of them. So, of course, I want to know, what did people like to skip. 

Kelly [00:08:16] That big one that they skipped understanding the tax situation. 

Linzy [00:08:20] Oh, yes. 

Kelly [00:08:21] They want to skip self-employment tax. They literally will take it out sometimes, even though we have it automatically put in there. 

Linzy [00:08:28] No way. 

Miranda [00:08:29] Someone just today. Just today. Literally, went and like they just deleted it. They didn’t even put zero. They just took it out.

Linzy [00:08:35] Right. They’re like, No. 

Miranda [00:08:38] And left themself with 15% taxes, federal and state. Everything together. 

Kelly [00:08:40] And then there’s this lack of- really it’s a Google search ya’ll. Just go see what your state income tax rate is. For those that are listening here who are like, I don’t know: you can Google search it and find out. So the taxes are a big one. The other thing is, is we teach from the perspective of here’s the must haves in your expenses and this is the ideal practice expenses. So, for example, when you’re starting out, maybe you aren’t going to account for your disability insurance. You’re not quite there yet because you’re just getting the essence of what your expenses are. But essentially, we want you to build into saving for tech changes. Your computer will break, your phone will break. You will need upgrades. You will need sick leave that you save for yourself. Retirement. Maybe health insurance. And those are often people just leave them blank. They don’t want to know what it’s really going to take to get to the practice that’s ideal. And they’re like, I’m okay with just enough for now, but we really try to challenge that and be like, You need to understand what the full picture is to take care of yourself so that you can do this work long term. 

Linzy [00:09:51] Yeah, absolutely. 

Miranda [00:09:52] And they’ll do things like, which is really interesting, they’ll have this as their side practice and they’ll have an agency job or another position where they’re getting their health insurance and where they’re getting paid, you know, $18 an hour or something like ridiculous. But they’re so scared of what the numbers would look like if they were to put that health insurance. And it looks like such a big number that they don’t compare and realize, oh, I’m actually not really getting paid that much at an agency or this nonprofit. I really could do this on my own. And they will create this dynamic where they’re trapped because of their benefits when it’s really not true. 

Linzy [00:10:33] Yeah, I think it’s this idea that benefits need to be provided by somebody else. Like they’re really expensive, really prohibitive. It’s better to stay almost anywhere if you can get benefits. 

Kelly [00:10:44] I mean, it’s just a new system to understand and learn. And as we’ve grown, where we used to get benefits on our own, and now we provide them for our staff. You know, it changes. Just the way you do it in your business. But I think taking in consideration especially group practices like learning how to grow into what those benefits may look like, that’s another thing that sometimes they’re like, I’ll just pay them more. Well, actually, you may do better to increase their benefits first than to pay them more. So we have like pay scales to figure out, like, how do you give a raise, not just randomly, how do you do it in a way that’s equitable and we’re really big on equitability, like when it comes to money. So that’s something that group practice owners also struggle with when they not only do the benefits for themselves, but then they bring that into providing something for their employees. 

Miranda [00:11:36] I think that’s the other thing that I see in general, too, because our our Excel spreadsheet, at the point that they’re ready to go into a group, they they actually put- they check a box and the spreadsheet completely changes for them as a group practice owner. Like how cool is that? 

Linzy [00:11:50] Oh, man, I’m really- I just need to say this spreadsheet sounds like the bomb. 

Miranda [00:11:58] It’s so juicy. But what we would find is that people would, before we had this spreadsheet and help them see the numbers of the profitability, they would create a dynamic where having employees, their gross income would go up, but their actual net income would go down over and over again. And they would be working more. They would keep a case load. They wouldn’t at all adjust for any of these things. So to help them understand sweat equity, help them understand how much time it’s going to take to launch the group practice, the additional expenses, and to see that it’s not just, oh, well, I don’t want to take 50% of their money, because they haven’t adjusted for you’re going to be spending 100 hours maybe in launching this group practice and an extra 5 to 15 hours a week sometimes. In a large group practice, maybe more. That you realize, oh, I’m working so hard to make sure they’re paid well, you’re not being you’re not paying yourself. And you would have made more money to just stick with what you were doing and increase your fee by $10. That would have been a better decision than bringing on your friend because it’s going to be really easy and it’s going to be pure profit. 

Linzy [00:13:09] Gosh, yes. Yes, all of that. Yeah. I think everybody I think – because I think it’s a societal message – but certainly I see therapists fall into this like you do. This idea that more more is more right, that like more revenue means that you’re going to have more money. But if you don’t build the machine properly, I’ve been thinking more and more lately of this metaphor of like our businesses are machines and group practices are such complex machines. There’s so many variables that you need to set and that like so many decisions to make, and if you set it up wrong, you can absolutely build something that makes you less money, loses you money, will never make money, even if you’re seeing a thousand clients a month in your group. But it’s easy to want to skip that part and just go with, you know, Oh, more money’s coming in the door, so everything is better. 

Kelly [00:13:50] And I think some of that can come from people pleasing or just a lack of not understanding the systems, not really understanding how payroll works and all the expenses. Because when you hire, there’s just a hiring cost. You got to know like how long it takes before you even break even, let alone when there’s a profit. So it’s just a new level of learning and coming in to- I think some people definitely I struggle with this- hate the system. We struggle with some of the systemic issues and so we avoid it. But the reality is, how do I work within it so I can still serve well and not burn myself out? We talk about standing in the gap. There is systemic issues and oppression and brokenness that not you as an individual can fill. You can hold to your values and then fight for a better system. But I think there’s some of that that also comes up. We talk a lot about like intersectional lens when we look at money and why people sometimes avoid these things. 

Miranda [00:14:52] I think the other thing that I see a lot and it’s and it’s I think there’s I really believe in community. I believe in therapists coming together and supporting each other is absolutely magical. And I’ve really seen that if you’re in the – I’m going to say the wrong community or if you’re in an ineffective community – you can end up like you’re going to look like the rest of your community. And so a lot of times you see people say, oh, people say you can’t make money with insurance. I made $1,000,000 last year. Right. Now, they’re not talking about profitability. They didn’t share how many hours a week they worked. They didn’t share whether they were paying their employees well, right. They they shared nothing more than this big number on the top. And they didn’t share their reimbursement rate. Because in Ohio, you might be getting a reimbursement rate for a 90837 of $143, and the average house price is 300,000. And in L.A., it’s $68 and the average house price is 650 for like a one bedroom. 

Kelly [00:15:58] If that. 

Miranda [00:15:58] So yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s this like weird space where sometimes people are sharing things out of context. They don’t even know what they don’t know. They don’t know what their own profitability is. And then I see these, these really well-meaning people go, Oh, I’ve been successful. I’m going to have another stream of income and I’m going to start coaching other therapists. And now I’m going to share how to replicate what I did when I don’t- and I need more income because what I did isn’t actually profitable. That’s what I have- that’s why I got to make time to do this. And then they take them down the same path, just completely unaware. 

Linzy [00:16:37] Yeah. And I mean, it kind of goes back to exactly what you were talking about at the beginning, which is knowing all of the numbers. Right. We’re talking about a different set of numbers right now, but it’s still the same thing. It’s like, sure that there’s a number on the top, but all of the numbers are actually what paints the picture together, not just like your revenue or your fee or the sexy numbers, as you say. Those tell such a small portion of the story. Like sometimes I almost like to say like revenue is is almost insignificant and that’s obviously being hyperbolic. Obviously revenue matters, but you really could be bringing $1,000,000 into a practice and spending, you know, 999,950 on running the business. Like that- that is actually possible if you’re not talking about the rest of the picture. 

Kelly [00:17:20] Yeah, I think too, that goes with profitability too. I know people think like, oh, that’s the number. But at the end of the day, you can make all the money in the world and if you’re not happy, if you aren’t healthy. If you were working like 24/7. That’s not really great to me. I’d rather make less money and be a good human. 

Miranda [00:17:38] Yeah. I mean, we’ve been in groups with other practice coaches and people who are out there and you’re like, It’s two in the morning, you’ve been drinking for 6 hours and you’re running payroll. At 2am. Like, What is happening? Like, something’s out of balance. Like, you know,. 

Linzy [00:17:54] Is this your best life? 

Miranda [00:17:55] Is this really like- and you’re helping other people. Or I was sitting with an amazing business owner, amazing human. Love him. And we’re having this conversation. We haven’t seen each other in like a year. And he’s every every 2 seconds he’s on his text. And he said, Well, you know how it is. And I said, No. I said, No, that’s just not how I do do life. We had a very different vision of what this is going to look like, and we had a different set of circumstances of like, Hey, here’s the age of my child and I want to pick them up from school and I want to be present with him. And that makes- that’s more important to me than a big payoff right now. And, you know, I want to make sure that I’m making a great income and making great profit. But if it’s at the expense of a connected relationship with my child, like, No, thank you. 

Linzy [00:18:46] Absolutely. And you’re- I mean, you’re very much speaking my language. I literally talk about this topic because I- my son is three and a half. 

Kelly [00:18:53] Awwww. 

Linzy [00:18:54] And three and a half is such a precious age and it’s different than three and it’ll be different than four. You know, like when they’re little, they change so quickly. And I’m sure it probably feels that way all the way through parenthood, but especially the way that I came into doing this work full time, is I had a one year mat leave because I’m Canadian, so I had a long time to think about like, what do I want my working life with my child to look like? And I even personally made the decision to stop being a therapist. I stopped practicing to be emotionally available for him because of the emotional impact of the work I was particularly doing. And I think it’s such an easy part of the picture to want to skip because there’s so many stories about money that like money in itself brings happiness. That like that you’ll be happy later. It’s like when you hit this milestone. 

Kelly [00:19:34] When I retire. 

Linzy [00:19:35] When you retire. And like some people don’t retire, like we don’t all make it there. And so, you know, I have almost this very like heavy mortality view of it, but it’s just life is happening now. We know that for sure. And financially, I don’t think it’s a great thing to bet it all on the future. 

Kelly [00:19:50] Yeah. 

Miranda [00:19:50] No. 

Linzy [00:19:51] To bet that fulfillment and connection and meaning will come later. You know, in ten or 20 years when you built up a certain number. 

Miranda [00:19:57] It’s absolutely now. And I you know, I was thinking about that actually over this weekend, we went to a retreat and there were people there in their sixties on this retreat saying, I’m still trying to find my sense of self and value. Right. 

Kelly [00:20:09] And I don’t know how to stop work. 

Miranda [00:20:10] I don’t know how to stop working. I don’t know how to find value. When is enough enough? What does this look like? I don’t know what life is going to look like. I don’t know how to be connected to my partner. I don’t know how to be connected to another human because this has been my focus. I don’t want to be there at 60. I think there’s a better way. 

Linzy [00:20:28] Yes. Yeah. Well, I think it sounds like you’re already living the better way, you know, to give credit where credit is due. Is that fair to say? Is it still a work in progress? 

Kelly [00:20:37] Yeah, and that’s taken a lot of intention and it’s been a lot of foibles with money. Like as this has grown and we’ve added staff, I’ve learned too, you know, of different ways to do it even better and to and to instill this in our staff, to promote this in our staff. Like at the end of the day, like we’re in the middle of a launch, messaging them of: you are not to overwork, be proud of what you’ve done to contribute to this, you’re an integral part, and you have a life. Go live your life. You know of those kinds of things of like really creating a culture of not just within our family and our family legacy, but in the lives of people who work with us so that they know that work is just one outlet for using your gifts. And there’s many other things about life that are good. 

Miranda [00:21:23] And like you get to set a schedule that works for you and you don’t need to work Fridays. There’s no reason for us to be doing five days a week. And let’s make sure that you’re taking time off and that we’re like really getting to know you as a human, although sometimes that goes badly. We had a staff, we’re like, how can we like say thank you to the staff? And I was like, He loves haunted houses. And I’d heard about this haunted house. And I was like, What about this? He’s like, Have you read the reviews? I’m like, No, I don’t do a haunted house. He was like, They shave 17 into people’s heads. 

Kelly [00:21:52] And they electrocute you.  

Linzy [00:21:58] We’re trying to connect with you. 

Miranda [00:22:00] You know, pieces of knowing someone to be human and be like, I want to like speak to love language of my employees. And and support them in a way and not just put my stuff on them.  

Linzy [00:22:14] So, you know, for folks who are listening, you know, we’ve been talking about the numbers. We started by talking about how it can be hard to look at certain numbers. And now I think we’ve landed on one of my passion topics, and obviously yours too, which is the balancing of life and meaning and how money can bring that into your world. But money doesn’t replace connection, time with family, meaning. So for someone who’s listening right now who’s like, okay, I’m kind of buying in. Maybe I need to start getting my numbers working. Maybe I need to. Maybe that’s the key to actually getting the life that I want. What would be a starting place for them? Where would you suggest that they start? Just a little baby step that they could take, even today. 

Miranda [00:22:55] Perfect day exercise. Yeah. Doing a: if I woke up in the morning, not on a vacation day, not after I won the lottery, but like a perfect day; if I was moving through my day at a pace that really worked for me; if I had time for my family, my relationships, for myself, or for my health; if I was really doing the work that just inspired me and that energized me throughout the day and working at a pace that really worked for my body. What would that look like moment by moment? Can I set a foundation for what that looks like? So now I know what time I would go into work, how many clients I would see, what kind of break I would have between them, if any. How much of a lunch break? What I would do. What I would eat. When I would come home. What kind of connection time I would have. How many days a week I would work. All of these different pieces. And then that sets this foundation for the numbers. How many clients can I really see? How many hours am I working total? Because there is going to be some working on the business, not just in the business. 

Kelly [00:24:07] Maybe there’s some additional expenses that I need to be considering, like having a VA, having a bookkeeper, or having a financial advisor, so that these things in my life are easier. So that day informs, then, the expenses. Then to know how to, based off of what Miranda is saying in the caseload size and how much you’re working. You take those expenses and then you can get really clear on the numbers. Instead of doing: this is the practice I have to have right now. If you’re starting, you are in at at an advantage. You can actually create, from now moving forward, the practice you want. If you have been in practice for a long time, it’s not that you’re at a disadvantage. It’s just that you have to undo some things, like take a few steps back and rebuild and revision. All it takes is really knowing where you’re headed. And that can change. We recommend that perfect day exercise any time you feel stuck. Any time there’s a life change. Once a year at minimum. Is this still on- online for what I want for my life and business? 

Linzy [00:25:09] I love how that exercise starts with embodiment because I think that that’s a piece that can so often be missing, both in business and in finances. And this is part of my passion of talking about money in the way that I do is actually bringing like our bodies and our emotions and our ourselves into these conversations because it can be so tempting. I think even as therapists, too, and helpers and self-sacrificers and overachievers to like live up in our heads and like find the number that’s the right number. And you live your life from your head of like hitting a certain amount of clients a day, helping everybody, living up here. And if you’re overdoing it, you actually have to live in your head because your body feels terrible. You don’t want to be down there because you’re exhausted. And so I love how you start with the body. It’s just such a wise place to start as we’re thinking about how money can support us and build the life that we actually want. 

Kelly [00:25:57] Yeah, we just finished a training where we talk about if you look at indigenous cultures and what they really value is that body, mind, heart, spirit balance. Right. Of working, operating in alignment with all of those four things. And so that’s something we try. We’ve been bringing more and more to our work of what does your body say? What does the heart say, what does Spirit say? Because we know probably what the mind says. Most people in Western culture have the mind locked down and it’s these other three that need attention and integration in order to lead you towards that vision. 

Miranda [00:26:33] And it was interesting again during doing this training last week and it was all about business planning and everyone’s like, Yeah, on the mind. And then we got to the other part and people were like, Oh, oh, this, I didn’t even realize, oh, I’m, I’m crying like I’m tearing up. Like, this is what I’ve been missing. And again, here’s this group of, you know, hundreds or thousands of therapists that are living up here. And we’re trying to teach our clients to be integrated, but we’re not. Because there’s no space, because that’s not what they taught us in grad school.  

Linzy [00:27:12] No, no. Oh, that’s beautiful. That makes my body feel very happy to know that that work is happening. So, Miranda and Kelly, if folks want to find you, where is the best place for them to follow you? Find you?

Kelly [00:27:24] Yeah. The best way to find us is to go to ZynnyMe.com and if you go to free, slash free, you’ll get- we have over 15 hours of free training. 

Miranda [00:27:33] Can’t really go wrong with that. 

Linzy [00:27:35] Yeah, that’s a good place to start and stay. 

Kelly [00:27:37] One of them has that perfect day exercise in it, actually. 

Linzy [00:27:39] Oh perfect. 

Kelly [00:27:41] Anyone want to try that. 

Miranda [00:27:41] Yeah. And of course, you can get on the interest list for our next round of business school if you want something holistic to come and play and a wonderful, safe community, we’re going to dig in with all the numbers and also do meditations and marketing and SEO and all that juicy stuff. So check it out. 

Linzy [00:27:59] Sounds wonderful. Great. Thank you so, so much, both of you, for joining me today. 

Kelly [00:28:04] Thank you. 

Miranda [00:28:05] Thank you, Linzy. I love that someone who’s so deep in the numbers is so deep in the embodiment and the spirit in the soul. Like as we’re having the ending part of the conversation, like I got tingling all over. Like I’m just like, yay, I feel like we just met a new, like, friend. 

Linzy [00:28:23] I feel exactly the same. This was- I’m very glad to have met you in this context, and I’m so excited about the work that you’re doing. 

Kelly [00:28:30] Thank you Linzy. 

Linzy [00:28:44] I was so appreciative and also kind of pleasantly surprised that the conversation with Kelly and Miranda ended basically with embodiment and starting from your body. I think it’s so easy as therapists, especially for perfectionists and overachievers, and I know many of you identify those ways. It’s so easy for us to live from our heads, live from our heads in our businesses, live from our heads in our lives, trying to, like, do it right, you know, do it perfectly. I hit these certain goals that we’ve decided are important in our minds, but not actually listen to our bodies and not actually be in ourselves in the work that we do or in our daily lives, because we’ve set up businesses that kind of exploit us and that exhaust us and that have us serving others so much that our own life is actually kind of pale and and tired and we’re not showing up and being present in the way that we want to, and we don’t feel proud of that. So I loved the wisdom at the end of just like coming back to embodiment, being present with yourself, thinking about what you actually want your life to look like and thinking isn’t even the right word. Really connecting with what you want your life to look like. That perfect day exercise I think is so valuable. And building a practice that actually serves you not just in your head, not just in your goals, not just in your numbers, but in your body. And that actually creates a life that nurtures and supports you. There’s so much wisdom in that. Just so appreciative of this conversation today with Kelly and Miranda. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. I share free, practical and emotional money and private practice finance content on there all the time. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It will take you like literally 2 minutes, and it really helps other therapists who want to be hearing these conversations to find me. Thanks for listening today.