Rachel [00:00:03] It’s been such a wonderful experience of having these young, fresh minds that are tickled to be doing this. It’s been really rewarding for them of the gained experience and asking me things, but also getting to get their perspective on marketing and what’s going on in TikTok land and everything else. That’s just way over my head. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have Rachel Dorneanu talking about interns. So bringing interns into your practice. As I mentioned to Rachel, it’s not something that we’ve talked about on this podcast before. It’s not something that we’ve thought about. And the interns that we’re talking about today are not clinical interns, but they are internships from younger people, high schoolers, university, college students who are looking to build their resumes and get experience. And we talk today about how there’s an exchange there that we can make with folks about giving mentorship and guidance and giving young people a taste of private practice and running their own businesses, especially for people who might be interested in going into therapy. You know, so often they get exposure to agency kind of settings. There’s internship opportunities there, but this is a way for young people to get a taste of private practice and to see if that’s the kind of work that they might want to do. We talked today about who should bring on interns in their private practice and who shouldn’t. What kind of person is really set up and in a good position to have interns, and who is definitely not. And also the difference between the interns and virtual assistants. Understanding reasonable expectations, and also what the relationship looks like when you’re bringing on an intern, as opposed to a virtual assistant who is somebody who is running their own business and charging you for the work that they’re doing for you. This is a great conversation for therapists who are thinking about ways to bring more skills into your practice. I recently read a book called Who Not How. That makes the argument that when you have a problem in your business that is not in your zone of genius, not something that you are good at. You should ask yourself who can help you solve this problem? Not how do you solve this problem? And this is very much a who not how approach to things like getting support with social media, website, marketing. If you are looking to bring in some support into your business, and you’re also someone who really enjoys mentorship and having young people in your life, helping people get a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the therapy world, there’s going to be lots here for you in this episode. Here’s my conversation with Rachel Dorneanu. So Rachel, welcome to the podcast. 

Rachel [00:03:15] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:16] Yeah, I’m excited to have you here because, well, many reasons. One, we just started chatting and I already like you. Yeah. Two. Talking about interns, which I know is an area that you support therapists with, is something that I know very little about and something we have not talked about on the podcast before. So I’m excited about what I know you’re bringing to us today. 

Rachel [00:03:37] Oh I’m pumped. This is gonna be fun. It’s fun to talk to to the therapists. Just be like, oh, that’s an option? Interns? Yes, yes. 

Linzy [00:03:47] Okay. Okay. So I would love to hear, like, how did you end up taking this path of working with interns? Because what most folks do is they, you know, work on, like, marketing, trying to fill their practice like they’re really focused on, like, getting folks in the door, getting folks in the door. What made you take the step towards bringing on an intern as a way to increase what was happening in your practice? 

Rachel [00:04:09] Oh, gosh. So I’m trying to think, I think it was maybe 2021. So like we’re slowly crawling out of Covid and I was feeling so burned out because I was trying to magically find clients during pandemic world still and market and content plan and do Canva Pro and do all the things. And I was like, you know, I choose to not drown anymore. I can’t do it. And so it was either let me hire somebody and literally pay out the butt, which is an option, or let’s find an intern. And so from there I was like, let me for funsies, let’s see if we can find anybody that’s an undergrad that could be an intern that is even somewhat interested. And then I was overwhelmed with like 30 applications and I was like, oh, okay. So people want to do this unpaid. Great. Let me interview them. And so I ended up having since fall 2021, multiple rounds of interns that have been unpaid but have received – based on their reviews, but also from talking with them – a very helpful opportunity of mentoring for me. So, a therapist in private practice, but also ways to bond with people from around the country because I have interns in different parts of the country. Um, and being able to help them get into grad school, become a therapist, because I help them look at their resumes and CVs and personal statements because I used to work in career services as well. So being able to have that bit, while they helped me is kind of win-win. 

Linzy [00:05:44] Mhm. So there’s this like exchange that’s happening there. 

Rachel [00:05:47] It’s not like just grunt work of them being like low on the totem pole of like all the horrible stuff. They actually get something out of it. 

Linzy [00:05:53] Yes yes yes. And I’m curious. Yeah. So like what is the profile of, you know, these folks who applied for this first position. Like, who are they. And like what’s really in it for them to have this relationship with you?  

Rachel [00:06:05] So some of the people that have applied have been, uh, mainly kind of a social sciences psychology major, that kind of thing. Just people that are interested in being therapists one day anyway. But then I’ve also had, depending on the season, I’ve had a social media intern opportunity. And so I have people from communications backgrounds, marketing, PR. One person was computer science and I was like, fantastic. Yes. I want you to look at my website. Thank you. So that went really well. And so the things that they’re looking for, at least from the psych background, people, because I typically, I’m sure, you know, communications, major marketing, they always need some kind of internship anyway. Um, but psychology, they would like us to – I know, I remember from undergrad, uh, it’d be cool if you have a psychology internship when you graduate, right? But there’s so slim of options. Either you’re working a suicide hotline or you’re at a domestic violence shelter. And that’s about all the options you have, at least in Georgia. And then I’m like, you know, why not let somebody have an opportunity to play with private practice and see what the heck is actually going on, but obviously hippa-compliant. But it’s making sure that they have a way to see that it’s actually doable and an option rather than you have to go to community service or state-funded opportunities. 

Linzy [00:07:23] Mhm. Right. So you’re letting them to step in and like build their resume and get a taste for this, this certain experience, this private practice experience that most of us came to after going through other steps. First, helping these folks who don’t even- you haven’t even entered into like, any kind of licensure or training yet to like, get a taste for like this is another option for practicing. 

Rachel [00:07:46] It’s so fun. And they’re they’re so tickled to have the opportunity to just be like, I talked to a therapist right now for free. Like, keep in mind disclaimer not your therapist. But yeah, let’s talk about the mentoring and the job side and the behind the scenes because no one talks about it. Mhm. 

Linzy [00:08:01] You know it’s funny. It makes me think about when I was thinking about my career path, and thinking about going to school for social work. I did information interviews. Maybe I just did one. But yeah, like how impactful it was for me to sit down with somebody. And I sat down with somebody who was like, I think she was an executive director at an organization, and it wasn’t even an organization that was necessarily values aligned for me, but just that she was working with folks, you know, in the way that I wanted to be working with people in the future and like, get to talk to her about what was great about that, what was hard about it. She talked about how like, she didn’t talk about her work to like, friends or family or at parties, like she really had to kind of keep it close to her chest because it’s so heavy and like things that, yeah, I remember being so hungry for that kind of contact and that kind of insight before I headed down a certain road. And I can imagine that for folks who would be interning with you or want to intern, it’s like they’re getting that times 50. 

Rachel [00:08:54] Yeah, exactly. It’s a whole semester of informational interviews. 

Linzy [00:08:58] Right? Yeah. Yes. So for you, like, as a as a therapist in private practice, what is it like managing these interns, this team of interns that you have had at different times? 

Rachel [00:09:09] Uh, I have so many stories. I’ve had some really, truly wonderful experiences. Some that I feel like you’re not allowed to leave. I have to hire you. Mhm. Like, so I now have someone that was a past intern that is now the blog editor. I have someone that was a past intern is now the intern supervisor. And so- which is just super fun. I had a past intern that became a social media manager for a hot minute. And that was- it’s just been so fun to watch their progress and be like, you’re so wonderful, you’re not allowed to leave. How do I keep you? Like, oh, that’s been fantastic. There’s also been some moments of where maybe there were some ghosting or there was maybe a life happened to them kind of moment. I was like, Look, hey, therapist here, completely understand, please go take care of yourself or family, whatever’s going on, I support you, I’m not going to write some horrible letter about you to somebody because you have life happen and as long as you’re honest and willing to communicate with me, you’re solid in my book. So just make sure that any therapists that are looking to hire interns that keep in mind they’re in their 20s, their early 20s, maybe like 18 year old, depending on what’s going on. I’ve had a high school junior reach out. Baby, baby, super precious, and I was like, I’m so sorry, you’re a minor and you’re in another state and that gets parents involved. And that’s complicated. But it’s been such a wonderful experience of having these young, fresh minds – wow I sound old – young, fresh minds that are tickled to be doing this, it’s been really rewarding for them of the gained experience and asking me things, but also love getting to get their perspective on marketing and what’s going on in TikTok land and everything else. That’s just way over my head. Mhm. And you’re like, hey, actually that’s trending. And here’s a site that helps you do all this for free. I said oh yes, yes we want that thing. 

Linzy [00:11:05] Totally. Yes. I have had this moment many times over the last couple years where I realize like, oh, I middle age like that happened at some point. I think it happened over Covid. For me, it’s like I went into Covid like pretty young and I came out like middle-aged. So there are all sorts of things that, yeah, like, I don’t know anymore. And I notice, you know, my son is now into, um, YouTube influencers. So it’s like, you know, 20 there’s this one guy he watches especially he’s like a 20-year-old man who’s like, of course, really good at Lego because he’s 20 years old. But when he like he’ll he’ll say words that I literally don’t understand and can only understand like in context and like, yeah, there’s a whole other vernacular happening. There’s like whole other like worlds of references that I just don’t even know what they are anymore. 

Rachel [00:11:49] Like, like, What’s Up or Rad or Coolio or any of those words that were like 90s babies. 80s babies. Um, those are done. 

Linzy [00:11:59] Don’t say that. Yes, yes. Yeah. And like I have heard colleagues of mine who end up kind of working with therapists who are younger, like a colleague of mine who is a speech language pathologist and helps people build their practice and has found that she’s getting more folks like in their mid 20s. She has a social media manager in their mid 20s because she can’t keep up with memes. Right. And so like there is this like, yeah, a whole world of culture that yeah is happening. And then the generations below us. Well, gosh, I know because what I’m hearing here to like, as you’re talking to this is like what I get from you is really this like passion for relationships and mentorship. Is that fair. 

Rachel [00:12:39] A Million percent. 

Linzy [00:12:40] To say. Yeah. And that makes me curious. Like as folks are listening, if they’re thinking about it like, oh, I’ve never considered bringing in interns into my own practice. But there’s things like social media or tech or whatever that I could definitely use some support with. Who would you recommend is a natural fit for bringing on interns, and who might not be as happy with bringing an intern into their practice. 

Rachel [00:13:04] That is a great, great question. I’m gonna start positive first. So for someone that was. Would really do well with hiring an intern would be somebody that is somewhat, I mean, somewhat similar to me. That is being really excited about mentoring, that I just really like you, that you are just going after you have an hour, uh, information interview in a sense, with somebody like, yes, here’s what’s happened to me. This is mine. This is what you don’t want to do. This is some things that can help you with your resume after you leave me. If that really just, like, gets you going, that’s what you want to do. You want to hire an intern because they are just going to eat it up. I am so grateful. This is a mutual respect, attitude kind of situation for people that it may not be a good fit. If you are stretched too thin, if you are feeling burnout and you’re going to end up having more of a cynical view about the therapy world, trying to talk to an intern about it, please don’t. Let’s do therapy bits first, work through the burnout first, read the Emily Nagasaki book about burnout. 

Linzy [00:14:17] Yes. 

Rachel [00:14:18] Read that first and then, you know, talk to me and find an intern. But just because we don’t want to burst your bubble, we need so many more therapists in the world. I come from an abundance mindset. We need more therapists. We need different kinds of therapists. 

Linzy [00:14:33] Yes. 

Rachel [00:14:34] And so if you’re going to come at it from a cynical, I just need you to do the grunt work, I just need to do the social media marketing, the blog post, whatever else, just so I can get more SEO. Probably your better bet is to hire somebody that’s a VA that’s going to easily just take the whole shebang. Knows what they’re doing. And there you go. 

Linzy [00:14:53] Right? Yeah. Because there’s an interpersonal exchange here like they’re being paid in relationship by like having that access to you and your brain and your experiences and your mentorship. So what I’m hearing is like if you’re cynical or if you’re done with humans, please don’t do that to somebody. 

Rachel [00:15:10] Please don’t. 

Linzy [00:15:11] Don’t put that on a young person who’s excited about stepping into our field, which I do think is really helpful because like, if I think about my own experiences with coming up and like interning as a social work student, the therapists who were like had that genuine spark. Like that was really exciting, you know, to see and to learn from them. But like the folks who were like burnt out or cynical like that was not, uh, not very inspiring as a young person coming into the field. And I probably didn’t pick up very much. That was very helpful from them. Yeah. So what I’m hearing then is like, if you are like a people person and if you have something to give because you are you are exchanging mentorship for their help. So you have to make sure that you actually have the bandwidth and the desire to give that mentorship. And I think that’s so important because, I mean, it makes me think about the parallel of group practice, right? So many folks like who are therapists, who are in solo practice, once they get to the certain point of busyness, just think like, well, I’ve got more clients than I can handle. I’m just going to hire somebody else. I’m just going to make a group like it’s this low hanging fruit. And I had a call today with one of my Money Skills for Therapists students. I was like, it’s not that I’m trying to talk you out of starting your practice, but if I do talk you out of starting a group practice, I won’t be sorry because you have to have that spark. Like, you have to be someone who loves to manage other people and who’s there for some of the messiness, who’s maybe ready to be ghosted if somebody like, has a mental health crisis come up and like, you need to have that to give, right, like that solidity and that like love for people. And if you don’t have that, you’re going to hate having group practice. And I would also assume if you’re going to have that, you’re not going to be really good at giving somebody an internship experience. 

Rachel [00:16:43] No, no, make sure you’ve you’ve got your whole – I won’t say your head on right, because none of us are really all that, right? But make sure that you’re in a mindset and headspace of this is not only going to just benefit me and my practice, and my brain is going to help this other person. Like you need to have that in goal in mind. Light at the end of the tunnel, that this intern is going to come out so much better from doing this, from hearing my thoughts and my perspective on how things have happened, hearing my story, my journey to becoming a therapist. If that’s not where your brain is, just just wait a little bit. Mhm mhm. 

Linzy [00:17:20] Yeah. So if people are listening and they’re like yeah no that’s me, I’m here, I would be really interested in that. Tell me about hiring interns. Like in the place of hiring a VA. Is that something- can one substitute for the other or do you see those as different things? Tell me about that.  

Rachel [00:17:41] That’s tough. If you find a unicorn that happens to have all of the VA experience that you want and you can somehow magically not pay them. Personally I’m a little concerned that they’re not advocating for themselves to be paid. 

Linzy [00:17:56] Right. 

Rachel [00:17:57] You know of now there’s really like I just I have the skill but I don’t have the, the, the background history, the years experience. Yeah, let’s play with it. But most of the time interns come in. And so keep that in mind when you start having applications come in for an internship. Um, they may not have a whole heck of a lot on their resume. Especially if they’re from a psych background. They probably have like, I made a marketing flier for a club in high school. Yeah. It’s like cool. Congrats. Canva is fantastic. That’s a skill. Please use that. Mhm. But it’s very unlikely that they’re going to have this really beautiful VA background. And for you to play with and interview them at like a VA level. Definitely keep that in mind in terms of hiring a VA though. I mean hopefully if you find somebody that’s really trained and knows their stuff, they’re going to be checking in and asking you questions in the interview. I’m going to have the nope, I don’t have any questions, thanks. 

Linzy [00:18:56] Yes. Big smile. 

Rachel [00:18:57] Like, hey, what’s your brand voice? What are you looking for? Who’s your ideal client? How can I market to them? What kind of CTAs call to action do you want to use? What I look at your feed is all x, y and z. Here’s how I want to write. A VA hopefully is doing that. Interns are like, it looks cool. Thanks for letting me know that that was something you enjoyed looking at, because that means that your demographic, which I actually work with, is enjoying it. Right? But just keeping in mind that that those interviews can be starkly different in terms of. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like what I’m hearing is with internship, it’s not that you’re getting free skilled labor, it’s that you’re helping someone build skills and build a resume so they can go on, you know, to work in their field of choice. But yeah, you, you are helping someone fill their resume. 

Rachel [00:19:49] Mhm. Exactly. Have a very different mindset with that of you may be depending on the intern and who you find, but you may be literally hand-holding and going through like entire intern handbook and outline. And you might be building that with this sweet little intern guinea pig. Um, hey, this is how you do Canva. This is how you make a reel. This is how you find captions and hashtags and Google Trends and Google Analytics and all that, all the things. Mhm. But you might be hand-holding for a bit because that’s the orientation and that’s the training that they’re going to need to eventually at the end of the semester make your business fruitful. 

Linzy [00:20:26] Right. 

Rachel [00:20:26] So keep that in mind. If you find a unicorn that already knows all the things. Oh my gosh I love that. Congrats. Send me their twin, right. But it is unlikely.  

Linzy [00:20:38] Yeah absolutely. Yeah. Because what I’m hearing is like, one is not a substitute for the other. Right. Like this is a this is a different thing. So if folks are listening and they’re like oh I could just get stuff my VA does for free. Probably not. No. No different levels of experience, different levels of skill. But what I’m hearing is an offering internship is awesome. If you really enjoy mentorship and if you want to have like a positive impact on somebody who might want to come into our field or who’s building great experience, it can be a really nice way for you to mentor someone and get some more support in your practice. 

Rachel [00:21:09] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:21:10] So, Rachel, this is what you help folks do. So can you tell us more about what you do and where people can find you? 

Rachel [00:21:18] Yeah. So website, all the socials, all the things is where you can find me. And basically how you hear me talking right now is how I interact with people. I don’t have this stuffy, holier-than-thou bit and that, no, that’s not me, but I really am going to make sure that I go above and beyond for you. I want to make sure that whatever it is that you’re trying to find, that we are going to personalize the crap out of it, that we’re going to find a way to, if you want this unicorn intern, let’s figure out how to find them. Let’s figure out what skills are, what’s the job description, what’s the place that you want to post the intern posting? How do you want to do the application? Like I walk you through every single painful process that there’s no handbook on that. How do you manage? There’s no cute little handbook yet. I’m working on it. Um, but. Or like an online course coming soon, but we’re not- school doesn’t teach us that. Every single episode with you is like it is not a thing. Business is not covered. Money is not covered. It’s go to community service board and for the rest of your life. So just keep that in mind that there’s an entire process to it. It takes a minute and also to be kind to yourself, because you may find a really lovely person, does a lovely human, but an intern? Um, not so much. So be kind to yourself. That only especially of the perfectionist therapist out there. Hello. Don’t have this expectation of I’m going to find this one perfect person, and every intern after that is going to be fantastic. You may have a great first couple of interns, and the next ones are getting a little wonky. That doesn’t mean you failed. That doesn’t mean that you have done something wrong or that that person was horrible. Therefore, all interns are horrible. That all or nothing thinking that we tend to do. Yeah. Nope. Just find the next round. Feel like, you know what a lovely time, but not going forward. Hopefully you can tell just I want to make sure that all the perfectionist people-pleasing people that y’all are taking care of, because I know you want to help people. I know you want to expand your practice in some way, shape or form, whether through marketing, expanding the group practice, whatever it might be. Just please be gentle with yourself because it is exhausting sometimes. Coming up with an entire intern handbook, coming up with training videos for future interns, coming up with all the agreements, all the legal bits that you got to cover. That takes time. Please don’t think you’re throwing it together in one week and you’re going to find somebody. 

Linzy [00:23:47] Mhm mhm. 

Rachel [00:23:49] And so that’s why you have me because I did all the stuff for you. 

Linzy [00:23:54] And where can people find you. 

Rachel [00:23:56] Yeah. So my website, my socials, sagecounselingtherapyandwellness.com. It is the longest domain humanly possible. So sorry one day we’ll find another domain name that’s not as long. And then sage counseling wellness is on all the socials. All the things. Please connect with me. I love to have more connections. Obviously I like to interact with people. I could talk all day, but otherwise it is just something that really makes my heart happy. And so if anything, this is more of like beta pricing right now and where the calls are for mentor calls and we can kind of schedule however many you need. At some point it will become an online course and then I’ll, you know, bump up the price and make it worthwhile. But for now, I just want people to like, help people and get a couple more reviews and so if you want the beta pricing, now would be the time to do it 

Linzy [00:24:45]  Getting in on the beta is always a good idea. Thank you so much, Rachel, for joining us today. And I’m sure there’s been some seeds planted now of folks listening, thinking about things that they could maybe bring on an intern, hopefully some beautiful intern relationships come out of this podcast today. 

Rachel [00:25:01] I hope so. Well, thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:25:17] A really important part of what Rachel mentioned today, that I think you should really be emphasized is in these kinds of internship relationships, there has to be an exchange. I think that there is the the negative association with internships, you know, like people I don’t know, interning at some sort of entertainment company. And they just have to get people coffees all day and they don’t actually get to be part of anything. And they’re really doing the stuff that nobody else wants to do and get no respect. That is not what we’re talking about here. That is not ethical. I don’t think that really aligns with what we’re trying to do for the world as therapists. She’s really talking about bringing somebody into your practice when you have the bandwidth to mentor and support somebody and help them build skills, like you’re going to be actively training them and supporting them a lot, helping them really consciously building certain skills and having certain experiences so they can put them on their resume so that they’re in a position to apply for the programs that they want to apply to, or step into paid work in an area where they don’t have previous experience. So this is really about an exchange, and I think that’s a really important element of this. And I can see how valuable that exchange could be for a young person. As I mentioned in our conversation. Like, I remember how much I appreciated when people who were ahead of me down the path that I was considering going on, when they would talk honestly with me and tell me all the great things and all the hard things about the work, that helped me make an informed decision of what path I wanted to take. And this is a chance for, you know, folks listening for us to do the same kind of thing for young people who are considering stepping into therapy or into the kind of health work that we do. So if you’re curious about Rachel, you can go to Sage Counseling Therapy and Wellness.com and get in on that. Those beta offers that she has as she’s building out these resources for therapists. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @MoneyNutsandBolts. And if you’re looking for more resources to dig into your relationship with money and getting it working for you in your private practice, I want to tell you about a guide that I have called Six Simple Steps to six Weeks Vacation. This guide is for therapists who find themselves overworking in their practice and going long stretches without taking any time off. For therapists who might notice jealousy creeping in when you hear your clients talk about their amazing vacations, when you feel like you can’t even afford to take any time off, let alone go away somewhere. And it’s for therapists who want to actually build into their schedule, replenishment so you can come back to your work feeling refreshed and excited to dive back into that work with your clients. This free guide walks you through the process of the mindset and steps to set aside as much money as you want to for your paid time off next year. So that’s for vacations. It’s also for holidays. It’s for sick time. The guide teaches you a system to put money aside and includes, of course, because it’s for me, a pretty calculator for you to play with. That will tell you exactly how much you need to save to cover your paid time off, but also to cover your vacation goals if you’re looking to travel. The guide also shows you how to put aside money for that so you can find that guide at moneynutsandbolts.com/sixweeksvacationguide and we’ll put the link to the show notes as well. Thanks for listening today. 

Deanna [00:00:02] As a business owner, it makes you feel like you’re not the one in control, right? You’re going out on a limb wanting to try something new, and you’re getting pushback about your own business. I’m glad that there’s communities out there like yours, Linzy, and covers professionals that can work with your business and see that same vision that you do, because you can’t always do it alone, right? Most of us can’t. So you’re able to find the help that is supportive and what you’re looking for. It makes all the difference. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Uh, you’re going to hear on the episode today that my voice is rough, but I am excited to be bringing you this episode. Today’s episode is about banking. So banking is probably one of the toughest and least appealing topics for many, many people. But what I’m excited about today is we are going to be talking about banking and getting your bank set up to actually work for you and take care of you with the folks from Relay. So Deanna Zubrickas is here from Relay, and in our conversation today, we talked about the emotional stories that she sees coming up around money for the folks that they support at Relay. We talked about the friction that we can encounter from financial institutions and the stories that we can have about financial institutions, and how that impacts our confidence and our relationship to money. And we talk more about profit first. So whether you are already using profit first in your business or if you’re curious about profit first, Relay is the official banking platform of profit first. And so we talk today about that model, the multiple bank accounts, how to make it really work for you. What can be helpful about it? I’m a big fan of profit first, I’ve been doing it for probably about 7 or 8 years now. I’ve gone through different stages of doing it more and less, like with other types of tracking. And now I will say in my own business, it is the budgeting strategy that I use in Money Nuts and Bolts. So for this current company that I have, I just use profit first for budgeting and look at my bank account to help me make strategic financial decisions, along with some other tracking that I do, looking back, but I don’t use any other budgeting software. I just use profit first. It can be a very powerful and clarifying tool. So whether it’s something that you’re already using or curious about, there’s lots in this conversation with Deanna today about profit first, about Relay, and really about claiming your power around money, but also banking and knowing that you are actually entitled to finding a bank that works for you and serves your needs. Here’s my conversation with Deanna Zubrickas. So, Deanna, welcome to the podcast. 

Deanna [00:03:13] Hey, Linzy, thank you so much for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:14] Yeah, thank you for being here. We were just joking before recording that. I do sound deathly ill. I would like to assure folks listening that I am not actually deathly ill, but my voice has decided to just, I don’t know, take a half vacation today. 

Deanna [00:03:27]  I’m choosing to participate today.  

Linzy [00:03:31] Yes, yes. So I am here. Not all my voice is here, but I still think we’re going to be able to have a great conversation today. Deanna, I’m very excited to have you here. So you are here from Relay Bank. So for folks who are not familiar with Relay yet and what you folks do, can you tell us a little bit about Relay? 

Deanna [00:03:47] Yeah, absolutely. So Relay is an online-only business banking platform. So everything we do is virtual and we help small businesses across the U.S. with their banking needs. So we offer like 20 checking accounts. Our payments are free. We connect to the rest of your tech stack, which is really important as a business owner. And we do that all virtually. So believe it or not, it actually kind of makes banking a little bit more fun than you might have originally thought of, which is kind of cool. And it’s all just about, you know, banking that is more accessible to the small business owner and works alongside their business rather than against it. 

Linzy [00:04:17] Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. And that is something that I so appreciate about you folks. Like I have a partnership with you folks. You approached me and I was like, oh thank goodness. Like, where have you been? Because one of the questions that has come up for so many years as I’ve supported Americans, I’m a Canadian, but most of the students in my course are American, is like we used to call it, the unicorn bank. Like, where’s that unicorn bank? Like, where’s the bank that actually makes it easy to open multiple bank accounts, because we teach profit first in Money Skills for Therapists. And not everybody chooses that route because it’s a choose-your-own adventure. But many people do because it is helpful. You know, it’s a helpful system to be able to have that clarity. But then so often people go to their bank and either like they get the look from their the banker like they’re insane, like, what are you doing? Or sometimes people actually try to talk them out of it, like, what is this? And I’ve heard this with accountants too, where they’re like, you don’t need this. Like people who are like real numbers people who don’t understand what the function of that is for people who don’t live and breathe numbers. Or it’s just really difficult, like it’s prohibitively expensive or there’s like limitations. Um, so like lots of barriers for people being able to set up their bank accounts in the way that they want to. And so I love that you folks have stepped in and been like, we are solving this. 

Deanna [00:05:23] We’ve got it. Let’s take this into our own hands. Right? 

Linzy [00:05:26] Yeah, yeah. 

Deanna [00:05:27] I love the term unicorn bank because a lot of times I’ll be talking to a customer and usually I kind of open with, you know, what are you what are the challenges you deal with at your current business bank. And oftentimes they’re usually pretty honest and say, you know, it’s fee related, it’s access tech related, whatever the case may be. And the other half will say, oh, I don’t have any problems. And by the time, you know, our conversation is done and I’ve showed them what Relay can do or what your experience can be like, they’re like, I didn’t know that banking could be like this. So it’s almost like what you don’t know is the problem. Because we’re so used to feeling so settled at our banks and not feeling true content. Right. And there are other options out there. And so that’s one of the parts of my job that I love is like, show you what you don’t know. So that’s pretty great. 

Linzy [00:06:05]  Totally. Well, I just had a conversation the other day on one of my calls from a course where people are talking about this dynamic that I think is also there with banks, where it’s almost like you feel this weird loyalty to the bank that you’ve been with. And like I was saying, how like, I still remember my first bank account number from when I was nine years old. Like it was a big deal getting my first bank account. And like, I had my own money. And it was a big decision when I left that bank and was like, yeah, this is actually really annoying. This is expensive. I don’t want to deal with you anymore. But it did feel almost like leaving a doctor, right? There’s almost like some authority there that I think sometimes we’re scared, like, am I allowed to leave? But yeah, what I’m hearing from you is like, sometimes when you look around, you might realize that there’s so many things that you’re not getting that you’re just used to because you’ve probably been with your bank for years and years and years. 

Deanna [00:06:51] Exactly. It’s- you’re basing it on history versus are they actually supporting my business the way I want them to. 

Linzy [00:06:56] Right. 

Deanna [00:06:56] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s usually the conversation that we have. And maybe, you know, fully leaving your bank isn’t the right decision for you. Maybe using, you know, 80% Relay and 20% your local branch is a better decision. And you get the best of both worlds because nothing is a one-size-fits-all, no matter what we want to think out there. But you have to do what’s best for your business. And just based on loyalties, that’s not a good enough reason sometimes, right? 

Linzy [00:07:17] Yes, absolutely. So I’m curious, like, how did you end up at Relay, like working for a bank that specializes in profit first, it’s very specific. How did you end up there? 

Deanna [00:07:27] I get this question a lot, especially from family members, because it’s very different from my background. So I also based in Ontario, Canada. So I went to school here in Toronto, and as soon as I graduated, I was like, uh, I need to find a job, you know, start paying my rent, all that good stuff. And I fell into retail and I fell into that full time. I ended up, you know, making my way up. I managed a few different stores for a few different major brands at some of the bigger malls here in Toronto, and I love the fast-paced environments. I was happy that I was getting career advancement and able to support myself, and my dream was to, you know, manage multiple stores at one time. And then Covid hit, and this was right after I had switched brands, and that was still my trajectory. You know, I want to have multiple stores. I want to work with multiple teams at one time and it was no longer an option. The retail landscape changed so drastically all over the world, obviously with Covid, but obviously it felt right at home for me. It hit me right there. So I end up losing my job during Covid because of that. It just, you know, retail wasn’t what it used to be. And I had to pivot. And so I looked at my skills and thought, okay, what am I good at? What have I been doing this whole time in retail. And it’s been selling. Right, instead of business to customer, you know, maybe I should try the business to business sector. So I ended up actually getting connected with a career talent agency that helped me apply to multiple startups in the area, like maybe startups I wouldn’t have found originally and Relay happened to be on that list. And it’s funny because when I think back at my first interviews with the team, I couldn’t really articulate at that time what Relay did, what we were selling, like what it was that we were putting out there in the world. But it was the team at Relay that had my heart immediately, and I was like, whatever they’re doing, I want to be on that team and I want to be part of that. And so that was like, what got me to take this leap of faith. You know, I went back entry-level after managing, you know, multiple people. And it was a hard step down. But then once I got to understand, we’re actually building this really incredible platform for small businesses. And now, you know, I’ve been at Relay for almost three years, which is crazy to say. It’s like an eternity in the startup world. But getting to see the impact at a small business owner level and now being, you know, profit first certified myself and part of that community, it’s taken on a whole new meaning for me about what Relay can do and what you can learn from, you know, using Relay and profit first together. If you had asked me where I would have been, you know, three years ago, today, I would have never answered that. But it’s pretty incredible. And that’s kind of how I ended up at Relay. But it was the people first that got me here. And then it’s the product and the client relationships I have now, which is why I stay. 

Linzy [00:10:03] Yeah. And that is something that I’ve noticed about Relay, which is like this interesting dichotomy to what you often see in banks is like first of all, I only dealt with women, which I love. 

Deanna [00:10:12] I also love that. 

Linzy [00:10:14] And there is this real like down to earth quality. Like again, I think that so often with banks there is this like old school, like stuffy men in suits authority of like you don’t worry about this little lady. Like we’ve got this for you. Like that kind of paternalistic vibe, which I think for my people too. It’s like for folks who are used to being really confident, used to being able to do really hard work as therapists. Right. And like, you know, therapists tend to be achievers. The folks who listen to this podcast tend to be achievers. And so when there’s something that we’re not good at, we feel really insecure and can have a lot of shame. And then when you’re interfacing with an institution that also thinks you’re not good at it, or also doesn’t want to make it easy for you to create the solutions that you need to manage money for your brain. It just reinforces that, like money is hard, it’s for like the big boys. Yeah. You know, like it’s it’s complicated, it’s suits. It’s all these things. And it’s refreshing to see more women moving into the financial space and creating tools that actually make sense for people who are not bankers. 

Deanna [00:11:12] Like, literally. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And I think a word we use internally every day is, is we want it to be like human. And I think that’s a great descriptor for that. And I totally agree with you. There’s so many business owners that I speak to and they get into business for their passion for the service they’re providing, the goods that they’re selling, not for the financial aspect. So when you’re walking into a bank and you’re having to explain to someone why the heck you might want five accounts, you know, you turn it back on yourself, you’re like, okay, did I not explain it? Why do I not know why I need this? Like, and you know, it’s an act of showing up for yourself, I think, to go set that up. But if you don’t get that back from, you know, the institution, you’re working with, it does definitely make you feel insecure and kind of makes you rethink at all when it shouldn’t. But I definitely I understand. 

Linzy [00:11:54] It does. And I’ve even had a situation before where somebody talked to their accountant about how they were setting up profit first, and their accountant was like, oh, that doesn’t work. I see people start it and then they quit, like, don’t bother. Yeah. And actually like telling somebody to like, not bother to take the actions that they want to take to gain financial empowerment like I think is just so irresponsible as a professional. Like it really is about kind of keeping the power with people who, like, are professionals and not letting folks be empowered in their own financial lives. Like I, I take serious issue with that. 

Deanna [00:12:25] I am right there with you. 

Linzy [00:12:27] But it can be a huge deterrent. But if somebody is coming to that place where they’re like, okay, I understand, like I want to do profit first. I want to have some multiple bank accounts. I want to have that clarity. And then they go to their bank, or they go to their accountant and they get active pushback, and they feel like they have to pitch and sell and, and convince the person that they’re making a good choice when they’re just trying something out. It’s a huge deterrent. And for some people that just, like stops them in their tracks and they’re just like they end up trying to cut corners on profit first. Like, I see this all the time where people try to combine bank accounts, like combine their income and operating expense account, especially because it’s hard to get multiple accounts, so they don’t have to pay more, and then they end up losing the clarity that makes profit first so good. Yes, because they’re trying to work with an institution that doesn’t want to work with them. 

Deanna [00:13:10] Yeah, I think as a business owner, I would assume it makes you feel like you’re not the one in control, right? You’re going out on a limb wanting to try something new, and you’re getting pushback about your own business. So I’m glad that there’s communities out there like yours, Linzy, and covers professionals that can work with your business and see that same vision that you do, because you can’t always do it alone, right? Most of us can’t. So being able to find the help that is supportive and what you’re looking for makes all the difference. 

Linzy [00:13:36] So something that I talk about a lot on this podcast and with my students in my various programs is money stories, right? Like, there’s there’s all the skills of money. There’s the systems that we’re talking about here, like setting up a great bank account system that gives you clarity. But so much too of money is the emotions and the stories that we have and the experiences. I’m curious, in your experience, Deanna, like working with business owners who are getting set up with Relay, like what money stories have you seen come up with your customers? 

Deanna [00:14:09] There’s been quite a few. And when you first mentioned this, like there’s one specific example that comes to mind and it sounds like it’s very similar to your community. It was the psychiatrist that I had met, her accountant or bookkeeper introduced me to her, and usually I, I kind of take you on a tour through Relay at that point. And this psychiatrist happened to be doing profit first already for two years at their local bank and was in love, like, absolutely in love with the method, but didn’t know, didn’t really understand her own pain points with her own bank until she had like seen the capabilities that Relay had. So we’d kind of gone into it and it was this big conversation about, you know, physically, I had to go into my branch and spend hours of my day away from my patients, away from my schedule, what I’m good at doing, to open these accounts. And then the user experience on her online platform was super messy and super clunky. She couldn’t get the multiple accounts to work out. She wanted to make sure she obviously kept with the method. She felt so discouraged about it the entire time, and because that was so evident, like in her bank accounts and the way she spoke about it, her accountant also picked up on that as well and was like, your books are a mess. What’s going on here? How can we fix this? And obviously, if you’re paying an expert to look at your finances and the thing they say is like you’re a mess, even though you know, you’re putting all this time and effort into learning, trying to do something new with your finances and get ahead. It was really just all around very discouraging for them. And so we obviously we turned around the conversation and Relay offered different things like being able to automate those transfers, being able to actually get more clarity by having the separate buckets. You’re not forced to like double up in between the different accounts. You can run it how you see profit first in your business, which I think is the important part, because that’s a different definition to everybody. But it was yeah, it was the pushback from her own bank and her own accountants, who she had been with for a long time, that made her insecure in what she was doing for her business. And when you are in business to be a psychiatrist, again, probably numbers aren’t your strong suit. So you’re already going out on a limb here. So it was it was definitely an emotionally driven conversation because by the end of it, it was like, wow, there’s another option out here for me. Like I can feel confident doing this. I can feel confident making more decisions like this for my business and not to mention the confidence level, but also all the time I’m going to save instead of sinking like this clunky manual process that I’m forcing myself doing now. And I’m seeing results. So it’s still great. But like, think about the time that I’m getting back now. Like whether that’s more patients to work with, working on more processes, doing something in your personal life. Right. That can mean anything. But getting that confidence back. And this is how I want to run my business. And I’m, you know, I’m going to do it the way I want. It was a big deal. 

Linzy [00:16:53] Absolutely. Like it’s having a tool that’s actually working for you rather than like, I don’t know, trying to hammer in a nail with like, a feather duster. Yeah. Like this is really hard. Really, really trying. But it’s very difficult. Yeah. Having that right tool and the automation pieces is really neat. Like that’s something that we don’t talk about that a lot in Money Skills for Therapists because that work that I initially do with folks is like building that relationship with money and being able to look at it and touch it. And at first that manual piece is really important. Like I always do a lot of like I’m motioning right now, nobody can see this because I’m on a podcast. It’s just you and I who see this, but I’m making like a motion, kind of like with my hands towards my body of the like doing the doing motion right. And I think that doing that living money and that almost like kinesthetic experience of money is really important for people to understand, like, oh, I get it, I do this and then this happens, I do this and then this. And I think that’s a really important part of the learning process. But once you have done that learning and once you understand, okay, okay, here’s the flow. I’ve been part of a flow having tools that can automate that flow. So you’re not actually having to sit down and do it, but instead you can look at what’s been done is a real time saver in our businesses, because chances are this is not actually the most important task that you need to do manually yourself. There’s probably other things that would be better uses or higher uses of your talent. So that automation piece is a really beautiful feature that you folks have to like, basically buy back people’s time. 

Deanna [00:18:16] Exactly. And this was actually a big discussion when we were about to release this, this automation rule. We’re very tied in, obviously, to the first community and the people that cofounded that community. And really the feedback they got was, this is the exact same thing you’re saying, Linzy, like, the automation is great, but what about for those for starters? So when I am in a conversation with somebody who’s, hey, I’m just starting probably first, how do you suggest it? I agree it’s we have the manual option and that’s like it’s choose your own adventure. Do you want manual? Do you want automation? You can do both at a certain point too. And it’s so important to understand that cash flow. It’s like building that muscle memory until you can kick in to the automation. And so that’s what I think is is really great about the platform, because no matter where you’re at, we’re going to meet you there. Yeah. And I think that’s really important. 

Linzy [00:18:59] Yeah. That customizable aspect is so powerful. And that’s something that I’m a big fan of, you know, with folks, with our finances generally is like, it’s so easy to think that there’s only one right way to do it. And if we need to do it differently or if we are doing it differently, we’re doing it wrong. And there’s so much shame that can come with that. But like what I teach is like, find a tool that works for your brain, set it up so it works even better. Work on things at the pace that works for you on the day of the week. That works for you. If it’s 11:00 Friday night, that’s great, right? If it’s 5 a.m. Sunday morning, that’s great. Right? It’s like getting to know yourself and like, I love that level of control that folks have within your platform because it’s like they can choose to automate if they want. They can turn it off when they don’t want it. They can change the rules. They can do it manually. They can do a blend like that customizable aspect really lets you set it up so that it works for your brain. Exactly. Which ultimately is what money should do for us and what our system should be doing for us. 

Deanna [00:19:51] Exactly. And that’s what the whole profit first method is about, right? It’s it’s a starting block. You take it how far or you’re supposed to mold it into how it’s going to work for your business. And it’s just a lot of the products we use up until now don’t allow you to do that. So it’s it’s almost like your own mindset shift, right? Doing profit first is a mindset shift, but then doing it how you want is also another what. 

Linzy [00:20:11] Totally. Yeah. So for folks who are listening and maybe have heard a profit first and know that it’s a bunch of bank accounts, and you would have gathered this in this conversation if you didn’t already. Something that I know can be a barrier with, like the idea of trying profit first is like one bank account is hard enough to set up. Now we’re supposed to set up like five. Like, doesn’t that make stuff harder? Right? And like more confusing and more complicated rather than easier? What can you tell me like from your perspective, in your experience, what that value is of those separate bank accounts? 

Deanna [00:20:45] Yeah, it’s funny when I do talk to business owners and they don’t come in for the profit first perspective and they’re like, why the heck you know, you can have 20 accounts on Relay. Why the heck would I need 20 accounts? And so it’s always funny when that question comes across and I actually feel like Mike, the author of Profit First, has a really great explanation for this. And it’s about using Parkinson’s Law. Right? Like if you have one business bank account and all of your money is in that one bank account, you’re going to look at that and think, I’ve got money to blow. I can buy all new products. 

Linzy [00:21:13]  I’m rich. 

Deanna [00:21:14] Yes, I can hire employees. It’s, you know, the world is my oyster. When unfortunately, that’s usually not the case. Right? You’ve got bills to pay, you’ve got employees to pay, you’ve got invoices coming in and out. There’s so many other things that your money is tied to or allocated for that you don’t necessarily see when you look at one business bank account. Yeah. So when you can split it up into multiple, like five, and you’re separating it into, you know, all my deposits are coming into one, all my operating expenses are in one. I’ve got tax in one, payroll in one. Whatever the case may be, you’re just able to see your money more clearly and see what it’s actually allocated to. So you are narrowing it down into certain needs for the business. And you’re no longer thinking, you know, if I have a payroll account, I’m not thinking, hey, I’m going to go take all the payroll money out and go buy five new laptops, right? And obviously, you’re, you know, business owners are going to do what they’re going to do. But if this is like a nice way for you to set it up for yourself and just kind of spread it out, you’re going to get used to what you actually have there. That’s kind of where the Parkinson’s Law comes into it. I think the example that Mike uses is a tube of toothpaste. Right. If you’ve got a full tube of toothpaste, you’re going to, you know, overshoot the toothpaste every time. But if you have a minuscule amount left, you’re going to stretch it to make it work. And that’s kind of the idea between doing a first on Relay with all those accounts. 

Linzy [00:22:29] Totally. Yeah. And like I use that example from profit first when I teach profit first because I think so illustrative and I’m like, oh, I 100% do that. Like, yes, I’m the toothpaste queen. I’m like, I can, I can get by. This is enough. But another thing that it makes me think about is lifestyle creep, right? So like to to draw parallel, something that I talk with my students about is as you make more money, which therapists have the ability to do, right. We have this incredible ability to like, you know, build our profile, set our fees where we need them to be, get a full caseload, and you can make literally double the money that you were a year ago, right? Which is pretty incredible. But it’s so easy for that money to just like disappear because again, more money comes home. You’re like, I have more money. Like, let’s go out for sushi for the second time this week, right? Like it just disappears and rarely does it actually end up going to the places where it would have the best impact. And it’s the same thing in the business where it’s like as our businesses grow, especially if that money’s all in one pile, it just disappears, right? Like it just goes somewhere. Uh, you buy a nicer place or you do an extra, like, clinical training or whatever, but it doesn’t actually go necessarily places that it needs to go. And sometimes what actually ends up happening is folks earn a bunch more, pay themself that money, spend that money, and don’t realize like, oh, their taxes also went up because their income went up. And then suddenly they got this like $15,000 tax bill that they owe in addition to everything they’ve already paid and a system like profit first, the beautiful thing is, because it’s all relative, it actually takes care of that. If you make more, there’s just more tax money that goes aside. You don’t have to make that decision, but that’s taken care of for you. 

Deanna [00:24:01] Exactly. I cannot count the amount of business owners I’ve spoken to and they say, hey, I’m here checking out Relay for Profit first. And I, you know, usually ask, well, what got you interested in profit first? And the amount of times I’ve heard I got a huge tax bill last year and I don’t want to feel that again. It’s, you know, very similar to I couldn’t make payroll last week. Right. Like there is multiple people that that affects. And you feel that once you never want to go down that path again. No. 

Linzy [00:24:26] And that’s really funny because you just described the two different groups that I work with in my courses as solo practitioners and like that tax thing of like, I owe back taxes, and now I’m trying to save for this year’s taxes, but I’m paying off last year’s taxes and I’m like, not making my quarterlies for this year because I’m putting towards last year where you’re. 

Deanna [00:24:42] how do I catch up? 

Linzy [00:24:43] I’m not getting out of this hole, how do you catch up? So like I see that a lot with folks in solo practice. But yeah, group practice like that is that’s the nightmare, right? That you go to run payroll, you have like six people who are expecting a paycheck from you and you don’t have enough money. Like that is, that’s a real, like, come to Jesus moment where you have to accept like something is not working. 

Deanna [00:25:02] Yeah. It’s it’s terrifying. You know, I think that’s, the perfect. 

Linzy [00:25:08] 100%. 

Deanna [00:25:08] That unfortunately. But yes. And it’s more common than you think. Right. And I, I run group calls all the time with Relay. And we always say that is like, I’m sure you know, 50% or more people in this room right now have felt this feeling. And so you’re not alone out there, but it’s yeah, you’re one time and we’re good. 

Linzy [00:25:26] Yeah. Yeah. That that was enough. That was enough. Yes, yes. So Deanna, for folks who are interested in really curious about Relay, can you tell them more about where to find you, what you offer. 

Deanna [00:25:39] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So for anybody wanting to take a deeper look at Relay, you can head to our website at RelayFI.com. Um, and you can check out a ton of different customer testimonials, tons of information on profit. First, we actually run monthly webinars based on, uh, different brokers advisors in their specific industries and how you can start setting that up. But really, if you’re looking to join Relay, like what you get from that is up to 20 checking accounts. So if you want to go crazy, profit first, you absolutely can. But you know, we can connect directly to your accounting software, or you can send payments for free and you can collaborate with anybody in your business. So those people that start taking on staff and have a payroll to do, you know, you can actually invite those people to your bank account. You know, you can do a lot of shared responsibility here, which I think is really cool and what a lot of business owners need. Yeah. So that’s what I’d say you’re getting at a Relay other than, you know, your profit first and your automations and all that good stuff. But we also will be sharing a link, I believe, for your community, Linzy. So people can sign up directly. And yeah, you can get started. It takes you about ten minutes to sign up for banking, which is also something I always love to share. You can do it on the couch. You’ll need your your photo ID, your SSN, your EIN, of course, and some supporting documentation. But it’s over and done in ten minutes, which I’m sure not many people that are listening have had that experience with the bank account set up. So no, it’s something that we like to flag. 

Linzy [00:26:59] Yes. So there’s going to be a link in the show notes, which is our Money Nuts and Bolts link. So folks, I know that you came from hearing us on this podcast. Yeah. And that ten minute signup is a beautiful thing because like I will tell you, I went to set up a business bank account with a Canadian bank, and I went into the branch. They were like, yeah, no, we have to, you have to like, talk to this person. We’ll have him call you. He called me. It was like a bad day, like I was busy. I didn’t call him back. I haven’t heard from him since. And, like, it just didn’t happen. Like, I’m like, I feel like I’m, like, having, like, lined up a date with somebody, but I’m like, yeah, I don’t have time for this. 

Deanna [00:27:30] Yeah. I’m working. 

Linzy [00:27:31] There’s like, seriously? I’m like, I don’t need to play phone tag with somebody. So that piece that you have of just being able to like, sign up online, you don’t have to go jump through hoops. You don’t have to go to the bank. I think it’s going to relieve a lot of pain for a lot of people, because I know it’s a pain that I’m still experiencing, being in Canada and not having access to this kind of bank in Canada. 

Deanna [00:27:49] Yeah. And then something like that, you know, either discourages you from starting something like profit first or, you know, if you’re a new business owner, maybe forces you to co-mingle like business and personal finance, which we never want to do. But I know that happens a lot, especially as a sole proprietor. So, yeah, uh, you probably don’t believe that it can happen in ten minutes, but it certainly can. So. Yeah. Yeah. Go to the link and give it a shot. It’s pretty cool. 

Linzy [00:28:10]  Beautiful. Okay, so that link is going to be in the show notes that that’ll take you right over the spot. You can sign up in ten minutes and, uh, and try it. And this is the, the attitude that I always encourage for therapists about money is, again, we’re so used to the idea that, like, we have to do it right, we’re going to break it if we do it wrong, like right. You can dip into things, check them out, try them, and then decide if you like them or not. Right? Like being curious goes a long way. So I would say for folks like if you are experiencing what we’ve talked about on the podcast today of like friction at your bank, making it difficult, you want to have multiple accounts. You’re not getting the support. Try Relay and see what it’s like to go through the interface. And something that I’m hearing is you do have a lot of customer support too. I’ve guiding folks on how to use the tool. 

Deanna [00:28:57] Yeah. And I think as a virtual platform you have to show up with customer service. So that’s kind of our philosophy here. Our customer service department is our fastest growing team in Relay, because we’re growing. So our our customer support has to grow. And I totally agree with you Linzy. Like you can just try. Like there’s no minimum balance. It’s free to set up your account. It’s free to get started with Relay. So there’s there’s no cost to you if you if you just want to try it. So I highly recommend. 

Linzy [00:29:22]  Thank you so much. Um, my voice has left the podcast and now we’re going to finish the podcast too. Uh, it was wonderful to meet you today, Deanna. 

Deanna [00:29:31] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Linzy. It’s been awesome. 

Linzy [00:29:47] I really appreciated Deanna coming on the podcast today and something I just never expected. When I started Money Nuts and Bolts five six years ago now was that one day I would partner with a bank and want to tell you about them and how great they are. But I’m here because what I didn’t anticipate is that there are women who have come into the banking space and are doing things to make money easier and more intelligible and automated and clear for all of us. Um, and that is so, so, so important. So I’m really excited by what Relay is offering. If you are curious about them, use the link in the show notes so they know that you came from this conversation, and check them out and see if they will help make your relationship with your business finances easier. Because we want as much ease and flow around money as we can, so that you can put your energy towards the things that really matter to you in your life, and you can use your energy for your higher talents. Not having to do a bunch of manual back flipping or fight with your bank, or feel confused about your numbers because you can’t set up a system that is actually working for you. So appreciate Deanna coming on the podcast today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And I would also so appreciate if you’d be up for leaving a review on Apple Podcast, and you can share what your favorite episode was, what you are enjoying about the podcast. It’s a really, really helpful way for other folks to find the podcast and also benefit from these conversations. Thanks so much for listening today. 

Randall [00:00:01] And I think the trouble comes in when there is that communication breakdown. There’s nothing right or wrong. But if you’re open and have full, transparent understanding, what is the expectation of family support? Is there money coming in? Is there going to be a lot of money coming out? Just know that it’s going to happen because I think surprises, financially, is what hurt people the most. It starts financially, but it ends up other things behaviorally that people have to adjust to. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist and money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to season eight of The Money Skills with For Therapists podcast. Uh, kind of blows my mind that we are already at season eight. To be fair, our seasons have 12 episodes, so it’s a little bit arbitrary, but that tells me, you know, that we’ve been really going at this for a while now and I’m so excited to be getting into our next season of conversations about money for therapists. Today’s guest is Randall Avery. He is a certified financial planner, he’s fee-only. Folks who’ve listened before, you’ve heard me talk about the importance of a fee-only financial planner, which means that he’s not selling you anything. He’s just purely working in the service of your financial well-being. And he specializes in working with therapists. Specifically, he mentions on the podcast that he loves working with therapists in private practice and folks who are pre-retirement age as well. Uh, sweet spot sometimes of all three of those folks. So he’s really focused on therapists in his financial planning support that he gives folks. Today, Randall and I really dig into money in personal relationships, which is not something we’ve talked about a huge amount on this podcast so far. When we talk about money in romantic relationships, what to think about as you are choosing a partner or what is important to be communicating about if you’re already in a long-term relationship. Also, we talk about money and relationship with parents, with children, uh, money moving between generations and communication in these relationships. How to foster healthy financial relationships with your parents and children. We talk about how to teach children financial skills and model financial skills. Just so much here in terms of money and family and our daily lives, and what we can do to support our financial well-being and the financial well-being of the people we love and the people around us in daily life, as we’re managing money and having conversations with the people that we care about. Here’s my conversation with Randall Avery. So, Randall, welcome to the podcast. 

Randall [00:03:08] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:09] Yeah, I’m excited to have you here. For folks who are listening, who haven’t heard of you yet. I would love for you to tell people a little bit about like what you do and, you know, your focus on therapists, because you specifically serve therapists. 

Randall [00:03:24] That is correct. So I’m a certified financial planner. I’ve been doing this for about seven years, and I have kind of three different niches. So one is mental health professionals. The other one is pre-retirees. And the last one are small business owners. And sometimes a lot of those professionals overlap. So the perfect client for me would be somebody who’s a pre-retiree mental health professional who actually has a practice or a side practice. I really love working with them. One thing that I’ve noticed is they’re really bright. These individuals have went to school for multiple years. Some have doctorates. A lot of them have their masters, so they’re very competent people. But because they’ve been in school so long, they actually did not develop certain money skills. Um, and they’re slightly behind because they spent more years in school versus earning, like their counterparts who also went to college. So this is a unique population that I believe I can add value to, not only with just helping them with money, but also because I have a specialty and a niche that I can help them with different career opportunities that help them move them all in their career. Because a lot of professionals, they want to work with a certain population. But how do I get to that point? How can I service those clients the best way, where different companies in your area that you can help service those professions? 

Linzy [00:04:34] Right. Yeah. I think that’s such an excellent point about education because this is what I noticed too, you know, working with therapists, as you say, like most of them have at least a master’s to be able to do what they do, probably a PhD. And what that kind of extensive, expensive, long-term education does is it really helps you scale up in a certain way, but it keeps you out of the workforce for kind of like what might be some key earning years. And I think it also helps you be like really smart at certain things, but then you’re really not taught other things. So like, folks come out of school really like being able to do great therapy, right? They can do up a great genogram or, you know, whatever modality, but they’ve really not learned many stuff, and they’re used to being really smart and being good at things. And so not only have they not been taught this, but that’s a great point that you make like they’re behind because they’ve been not working and also accumulating a ton of debt in that not working. 

Randall [00:05:31] And I think most professionals fall into that trap. As far as once you turn 28, it’s hard to develop a new skill and perfect it because you’ve been so good in other skills. So things like, you know, fixing a car if you did not grow up doing things like that, doing things around your home, maybe you outsource those type of services. And that’s kind of where I fit in. Clients come to me, you know, they want to be successful financially and I help them out throughout that process. 

Linzy [00:05:55] Mhm. So I’m curious what made you want to serve us, like the therapist who types of the world. What drew you into this niche. And especially like therapists and private practice and like pre-retirees. What calls to you about working with these people? 

Randall [00:06:09] Well I kind of fell into that niche. I kind of was working with clients and I gained a client that was a therapist. And she kind of explained her career, what she’s going through, income opportunities, and I learned more about that profession. And now, a little bit about myself, I’m from the South, and there’s always a slight stigma when it comes to mental health in the South. So I was not exposed to that profession. So hearing her story, how she helps clients, it kind of motivated me to learn a little bit more. And then I learn like there’s different layers. There’s a social worker, there’s a counselor, there’s a psychologist, there’s a psychiatrist, and all these different levels. And not only that, it’s the work you guys do that I think goes unnoticed. A lot of the work you all do is not plastered over the news, but it’s it’s what people deal with on a day-in and day-out basis. And also I’ve noticed that therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist, they spend a lot of their time listening. So now they have the opportunity to actually talk. And me being able to allow them to talk and actually listen to them. I kind of found them to be a really great client for me. 

Linzy [00:07:10] Mhm. Yeah. I think that is so true of therapists. Like we tend to spend so much time listening. It’s invisible work because it’s work that also happens like behind closed doors. Right. Like it’s not going to be headline news when somebody has an incredible therapy session because there’s confidentiality and it’s a very private kind of profession. Right. Other people don’t witness the brilliance of therapists. And that’s actually like an interesting piece that I haven’t totally thought about is, like, so many therapists doubt that they’re good at what they do. You know, they have like imposter syndrome. And even though they can think like, well, this client was really successful, that client was really successful. Sometimes they’re like, well, but that person was doing their own work. It wasn’t me, it was them. They would have done it anyways. Or like, well, maybe they were successful, but maybe they were just telling me that, like, we come up with stories because we never get to have somebody else to watch what we do and be like, you’re really good at that. You really. That was really brilliant how you did that. Like, we don’t get witnessed in our work, which is different than some other professions where, you know, you have a boss who’s watching what you do, or you work with a team and people are able to reflect back to you. Your gifts. It’s kind of like a therapist. Like we have to somehow accept that we’re good at what we do without necessarily being able to get that feedback from other people directly. 

Randall [00:08:16] That is correct, because it’s almost you prevent something bad happened. But if something bad doesn’t happen, society just goes on. So I love the work that they all do and anything I can do to help moving forward, I think helpful. And one thing that I also do, I talk to a post-doc programs. So that’s a program where before they become a licensed professional, a lot of students participate in a postdoc program. And me being able to talk to those students, I kind of like say, I’m like the Ghost of Christmas Future. As far as being able to tell them, look out for this, because a lot of my clients say, I wish I would have known this. So I can get them on a head start early on in their career. I think it’s been really valuable and the feedback has been amazing. 

Linzy [00:08:54] Yeah, great. So something that I would love to get into with you is, you know, you work more on the personal side of money. You know, what I do with folks is on the business private practice side of money. I get into like, money stories with people and like, why do we have these certain beliefs or behaviors in service of our business? But you’re really working with people around their personal finances and something that I get asked or about, and that gets brought to me sometimes with my students, is conflicts or complexity with their spouse or partner around money. So I’m curious, like, what have you noticed about money in romantic relationships, like personal relationships? 

Randall [00:09:36] So for therapists, the dynamic is different. So let’s start from the beginning. So they have began romantic relationships sometimes later in life. So they’ve gained their masters, again, their doctorate. So they’re starting around 26/27 years of age. There’s also another counterbalance of societal pressures and societal expectation of when things should happen. So when they go into relationships, they’re almost in an accelerated situation when they think about their romantic relationships. Also, people need to realize who they choose as a partner has significant impact on your financial well-being in this day and age. A dual income household is almost a necessity when we talk about raising an entire family and making sure you’re able to do the things that are necessary, so making sure that you’re choosing the partner that aligns with you personally, but also financially, is important. 

Linzy [00:10:27] I feel like you’re telling my personal story. If I just think about my own, you know, dating life because, yeah, it’s like I finished my master’s. I was already practicing. I was already in my field. I was already doing what I loved. And then I met my partner when I was 29. So then it’s like, okay, we got to go. Like, if we want to have kids and like, have a house and all these things, like we kind of had this accelerated start to our relationship because we didn’t have a lot of time to get to know each other over ten years. Right. It’s like time was a-ticking. But, you know, I think what you bring up is a really an important point, but probably something that’s kind of like hard for folks to hear that, you know, the partner you choose is a huge impact on your financial health, right? Like there’s that financial component. Do you ever notice that people don’t want to think about that? Or like it’s like love should triumph this? Like, what do you say to people who are just like, but it’s not as important as having the right partner or. Yeah, how do we think about that? 

Randall [00:11:21] So I think it’s more about values, which kind of lives with when you decide on a partner. So the value of paying bills on time, the value of, you know, keeping the lights on. The value of holding a job and the values of work ethic. Those things aren’t romantic. But when we talk about sustaining a relationship over time, those are what keep people together and makes you think, well, maybe I should stick this out because there’s going to be ups and downs in relationships. Nothing’s going to be steady. And having somebody that says we have the similar values, we have similar hopes and dreams and aspirations. That’s what I work with clients on a lot. Let’s not talk about the differences. Let’s focus on what we have in common and put money in financing those things. And I think a lot of time when people come together. I think the number one thing is just be transparent. Know your person’s credit score before you move in with them. Know how much they make. Know their occupation, know their past work history. Actually ask for their resume by chance. Those little things where we may laugh that we think are funny, I think will kind of help people forward when they think about their financial future with their partner. 

Linzy [00:12:28] Yeah, because when you’re building a long-term relationship – and this is something that I notice was a difference for me too. The difference between dating in my late 20s and being like, this is my person. Like I’m choosing my person versus like, dating in my early 20s is where the mistakes were made – let’s just say that, right – is you are thinking about somebody that you want to build something with, right? And whatever that is, whether you’re planning to have kids or not, whether you want to have a life where you can travel the world together, right, or not, like you are coming into what almost is almost like a business partnership. I say that – it’s an extremely unromantic thing to say, but you know, this is your person who you’re going to be building your world with, right? And so what I’m hearing from you is like these pieces, they’re often pieces that we don’t ask about and we don’t talk about. And, you know, I was laughing a little bit when you’re saying, like, ask for the resume because it’s just like it’s so contrary to kind of our narratives around like, romance and like, well, but who are they inside? And but that’s actually going to show you like, who is this person, you know, and what is their behaviors. And are you on the same page? And can they give you what you need for the life that you want to build? Because we’re talking about building something that’s like for decades, you know, as you say, where there will be highs and lows, you’re looking at long-term compatibility. 

Randall [00:13:38] And they say a lot of times that opposites attract. But that’s not necessarily true. You may have different things like love language. I like physical touch, I like attention. But when we talk about relationships that make the long haul, they’re usually people that have the same value system, sometimes share the same level of face, um, different things that make them actually more similar than not. So when you’re looking for a partner, take away the esthetics aspects, look at their values and what they believe in, even their family, which I think we’re going to talk about a little bit. 

Linzy [00:14:08] Yeah, absolutely. I will share that, you know, when I met my own partner, who’s now my spouse and my co-parent and all those kinds of things, I made a really deliberate decision to choose those things, right, over, like kind of my, my patterns. And the therapists listening will also know, over my trauma, you know, and what was familiar and comfortable. Like I made a very different decision, and I chose someone who really is like a project partner. Like we like to get things done together. We like to make cool things happen in the world. And that has made for a really satisfying partnership, right? Because we both have that drive. So like we built a backyard cottage that we rent out. We did that two summers ago. That’s a big project, right? Like if I was married to somebody who was like, well, it’s not important to me, I’d rather not, then I wouldn’t be able to create that thing in the world, right? Like there’s so much potential in partnerships to, like, make a life amazing. And there’s also so much opportunity to not have the life that you really want because you’re with somebody who’s just doesn’t want what you want and is not on board. And I think that it’s it’s not what we’re taught to think of when we think long-term. But certainly my own experience has been like, it’s the way to go. Choose the person that you want to build something with, and you want to build the same kinds of things, and you have those values in common, even if you don’t listen to the same music, which was one of my things when we first got together, because, you know, I was like an artsy kid who, like, was used to bonding over people over these certain things. That’s not actually what makes for, you know, a meaningful, functional, long-term relationship. 

Randall [00:15:33] That’s true. You know, we think of the here and now, but think about what would you value in a partner when they’re 60? Um, that’s the things you should think about. You know, what they believe, what they hope, and what they aspire to. The here and now. It is enticing. The esthetics, the looks, the flash, and even the status. But when you’re 60, a lot of that stuff does not matter. Can I laugh with the person? Am I worried about a gambling habit, an addiction habit? These things that are real and I hope people consider these things when I think of a life partner. 

Linzy [00:16:03] Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, for folks listening, like a lot of folks may already be partnered, but I think it also speaks to just like these things are important in relationships, like we’re allowed to want to be with somebody who will support our dreams, who gives us that stability, who, you know, like, you know, as you say, like you can laugh with and those kinds of things as well. But, you know, sometimes when I think about business and money, you know, I think about, like, if this is your one and only human life, like, is this how you want to spend it? And the person that you choose is going to have a huge impact on what your life looks like, right? And you’re allowed to ask for what you actually want, somebody that you can build what you actually want with. Yeah, I think that’s a powerful thing. And I’m sure a lot of folks who are listening, like we tend to be more of those like people pleasers, like self-sacrificing and those kinds of things. But what I’m hearing from you is like finding that person who’s compatible in those important ways is really powerful, both emotionally but also financially. 

Randall [00:17:02] And one last thing I would like to add on to that. There will come a period where your partner’s not working, not bringing steady income. And I think a lot of people don’t consider that even though that person is the breadwinner, they may not want to work that job anymore. Family dynamics change. So really think about everything holistically. As far as you know, if that person wasn’t working, do I still like them? If they didn’t have that title, do I still like them? If we didn’t drive this car and go on those vacations, is that somebody I want to spend the rest of my life with? And I think those answers help. 

Linzy [00:17:35] Absolutely. Yeah. And that has been my own experience. You know, part of me building this business actually was my partner going through a period where he was changing careers and didn’t know what he was doing and wasn’t working, and I was no longer the secondary, like, bonus money earner. It’s like it’s on you. And. Yeah, no, these are these are great questions to ask. So you alluded earlier to the importance of like parent and child relationships. So I’m curious from like your perspective as a financial planner, how should we also be thinking about our relationship with our parents and our children as we’re thinking about our financial well-being? 

Randall [00:18:08] So I have a, I guess, a spectrum. So I have clients that are in their late 30s and have clients in their 70s. So I get to see both sides. I see the parent and the child. And one thing from the parent aspect, I’m working with them, they have saved up enough, they’re successful, and the question is, what am I going to do with this money? Okay. And they would love naturally, the parent would love to give money to their child to make their child’s life a little bit better. But there’s either a relationship issue or there’s behaviors that make giving that child more money that much more at risk. Okay. And now from the child aspect, maybe the parent has done something that I don’t like, maybe that they don’t agree with my career choice or my spouse choice. So there’s that cut off in relationship. And last but not least, we do have a situation where kids are sometimes expected to take care of their parents financially. So really thinking about the generational dynamic, even when we talk about romantic relationships, your ex-spouse, hey, what is the family support that you believe you should have for your family? I think those questions are important, but also maintaining relationships throughout the generation I think could allow for a lot of different planning opportunities, especially wealth transfers. 

Linzy [00:19:24] Right? Yeah, because those parent-child relationships end up forming a lot of our financial picture as well. Yeah. The relationship that you have with parents, the expectations that they have for you to take care of them. Or the expectation that you might have for them to take care of you. If you’re that that generation down. And I have noticed different families have very different expectations and norms around how money moves between generations. 

Randall [00:19:49] That is correct. So I have clients where their parents will give them $10,000 every year. Be nice for that situation. I have clients where parents are going to hold on to their multiple million dollar portfolio until the very end and try to control it, even going as far as putting into a trust. And I also have clients whose parents have not saved anything, and they sweat every day with a health scare going to cause them to have to move in. And I’m going to have to take care of them. So the parents, how you think about your parents, how you think about your kids, does matter. And I say the number one thing is make sure you keep an open relationship. If there isn’t anything that’s going to be traumatic or cause you undue harm, try to keep the relationship going, keep the conversations going, visit, have opening communication, and even bring up money. When I say if a client comes to me and their parents help them put a down payment of their home, that is an amazing financial benefit for them. If I say the client comes to me and say, hey, I’m going to fund my grandkids 529 plan, which is a type of plan that helps fund education. These things help move the needle. Even last thing I want to add is if a grandparent wants to help their kid with education in primary school, making sure they go to a private school versus the local school, these things matter. When we talk about intergenerational benefit and transferring wealth. It’s not just money, but sometimes it’s experiences we have to think about. 

Linzy [00:21:13] Yeah, because it makes me think, too, about how we’re all part of like an ecosystem of relationships, right? And like when you can keep those relationships open and healthy and there’s that communication there to understand what’s happening. There’s also more openness for energy transfer, I’ll put it that way, which can include like money and support and those things because there’s a recognition of like, okay, I have this thing and I could share it with them and that would make a huge difference to their life, because now I understand that they’re struggling in XYZ way, or that there’s this amazing opportunity that they can’t take on their own, but that I could help them with. And I’m able to know that because we have that openness of relationship. And I think that that’s so, so important because something I think about too, is I think about my own family is also knowing what’s happening with my family’s financial situation. And I’m in a situation where my side of the family has real family value around transferring wealth from higher generations to the generations below. Kind of ongoingly in really practical ways, right. Which has been like an incredible gift to receive. And I think it’s like, you know, part of that is, is there is money to be there, but also a big part of it, just that value of like, you know, my aunt saving money for my brother and my cousin and I, we’re just a small little family, for decades before gifting it to us, when we reached a certain point in our life when she thought it would be most useful to us, which is an incredible gift to give, right? And like for me, having received the benefit of somebody being so thoughtful about money in a long-term way, I will be doing the same thing for younger generations like my own child, but also the cousins in the family. If I see financial need, I will be thinking about what a difference those you know money made to me at key times, like when I started school or when I needed money for a down payment, or when I had student loans to pay off. Right. Like there’s these key times in your life where money showing up is so advantageous, and it’s been an incredible gift to have somebody in a higher generation recognizing and thinking about that. Where the other side of my family, my partner, his parents were immigrants and they lost money. Right? Like whenever you immigrate, almost invariably money is lost, right? And status is lost and professionalism is lost. And you kind of start over in a new place. So when I think about our finances, I’m almost thinking of this flow from like my family that’s been in Canada for, I don’t know, 150 years or something insane. And like the stability that they’ve been able to build, that flowing through us and then flowing to my in-laws, you know, over time as, as they’re retiring and as they need more support or more stability. And this backyard cottage that we built like that is all this like ecosystem that we get to be part of that. Thankfully, I’m aware of what money is where, because we have enough communication to know that that’s the case. 

Randall [00:23:53] And I think the trouble comes in when there is that communication breakdown. So there’s nothing right or wrong. I have done this long enough to know there’s many different ways to get the job done, but if you’re open and have full, transparent understanding, that’s why when we spoke of beforehand, what is the expectation of family support? Is there money coming in? Is there going to be a lot of money coming out? And there’s nothing right or wrong. Just know that it’s going to happen because I think surprises financially is what hurt people the most. It’s, I didn’t expect that, I had this idea for my life. You’re telling me we have to go this direction and that places a strain and it starts financially, but it ends up other things behaviorally that people have to adjust to. 

Linzy [00:24:38] Mhm. Yeah. And what I’m hearing in all of this, and what can be so challenging about money is we have to start conversations about this, right, with the people in our family. And we have to ask questions. And you know, I know that my partner has had a conversation with his mom every few years of just like, how are things going financially? You know, like, what are your plans? You know, like what’s happening in the will, you know, like those kinds of conversations. And for us, part of what we’re also gauging is like, okay, is she good or is it time for us to start supporting in certain ways. Right. But it’s like that can be a difficult conversation for people to bridge, because we’re so unused to talking about money transparently. 

Randall [00:25:14] And I think and I love the fact that they’re introducing financial literacy in grade school so people, kids, can get a head start. But I tell everybody, financial literacy starts at the dinner table. It’s the conversations that you have, the experiences like you have described that you have where how funds flow between different generations. Understanding that and the impact of that is important. So if you are a parent and you want to transfer money down, it’s going to be sometimes hard for you to transfer that money out because somebody has to start it off so the kids can understand what to do when they have kids. So understand it’s going to be painful at first and people are going to have different behaviors. And I tell folks all the time, start off with a small amount. Let’s say your goal is to pass down $300,000, start with $10,000 so that they can learn, mess up, so they don’t become depressed because they wasted 100,000. And then once they mature, knowing that there’s going to be growing pains, I think that’s important. And it’s also with the spouse who has poor spending habits. Start off small. Go on that journey with them. So hopefully when you’re 60, you guys have a mature, um, kind of outlook on how to manage money. 

Linzy [00:26:25] Mhm. Yeah. And I think that’s so normalizing that skill building takes time. And there’s a book that I read a year or two ago called The Soul of Money. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but she tells this story in this book that resonated so deeply with me about how her own mother’s relationship with money, and her mom didn’t really have a lot of money in her life, but like, really taught them skills about how to be really mindful about money, spend money in really meaningful ways, and how one of the most valuable things we can pass on to our children, even more valuable than giving them $100,000, is teaching them skills. Because skills they always carry with them, right? And skills can’t be stolen from them. Right. And so it’s just like that skilling up our kids and as you say, like that starts at the dinner table, right? That starts by letting mistakes be made. That starts by like creating space for reflection and transparency of like, hey, you know, like I’m thinking about my own relationship to being a parent, of being able to even say like, yeah, this is a mistake that we made, right? Or like, this is why we do it this way. Right? And this is, uh, why this is important to us, or this is why we put our money these places, like having these transparent conversations, because they’re not skills that we’re born with. It’s not in the water. Right? Like we don’t just learn it on our own and we need to be taught it. But I think, you know, what you’re bringing up is such a great point. Like I hear so often, this narrative, and I think it’s an especially American narrative, I will say as well, from my like, Canadian perspective of being one step on the outside is this dream of being able to pass down a huge amount of wealth to children, and that being this aspiration that so many of us, you know, have is I just want to leave my kids with, like, I don’t want them to have to struggle like I did. You know what? I want them to be secure. And I want to leave my kids as much money as I possibly can. I’m curious about your perspective about, like, that kind of goal and like, how does, yeah, how do you see that play out or how do you think about that in relation to skills? 

Randall [00:28:14] So, you know, a lot of people say let’s start from a step back. So a lot of people say, hey, you know, I want to be wealthy. And they say, Randall, how can I become wealthy? And the hard answer and but the truth and honest answer is be creative enough and something that somebody else values in exchange. So a lot of people don’t start off with that exchange of value. I’m giving value to society. So therefore it comes back to me in the form of income and wealth. Okay. And now that I have accumulated this amount of wealth, how do I pass it on to the next generation? I believe it has to be strategic and it has to begin early, like I said, at the dinner table. So be strategic. Sometimes it’s buying a house in a neighborhood where the neighborhood is affiliated with kids that have the same amount of financial well-being, also, in a neighborhood that goes to a school which is going to provide enrichment for the child. So starting off early and really showing them, hey, this is what the benefit of having money does, also show the other side of the tracks, do volunteer events to say, hey, now these people have to have run out on their luck. This is a potentially things that can happen. So you’re not fostering a situation as far as spoiling them. And then the next thing as far as when they go along, education, you know, help subsidize the education. Now I would like to say that each child is going to be different. So some kids, you can say, hey, I’m going to take care of education, no worries. Whereas there are other kids where you have to say no, you’re going to take out student loans, because I don’t think you’re valuing education in the way that you need to do. So there’s going to be some customization when it comes to transferring wealth and also what you spend for your child. I believe- and I’m about to embark on this thought process – is, you know, they say die with zero, meaning that they’re not going to wait until you pass away to receive a large balloon inheritance. I believe, like I had mentioned, you strategically place things in their life as they go along their lives that make their lives easier. But you’re also, on the other hand, teaching them a lesson similar to volunteering, similar to moving to certain neighborhoods, similar to showing them different experiences. It’s all a lesson of values that you’re passing down to your kids, and it has something to do with money, but it’s actually more about those other things, those other life skills that I think are important. 

Linzy [00:30:31] Um, I think that’s really powerful and like something that I’m really appreciating. This is just thinking and being intentional about educating your kids about money in small ways all the time. Because something that I know, like a lot of folks that I work with in Money Skills For Therapists is they know that they didn’t like what was modeled to them, like it didn’t work right. So they inherited these negative money stories, this baggage, or these confusing stories where one parent seems to have endless money and they’re always like splurging. But the other parent says they have no money. And do they have money? Do they not have money? And kids, they absorb all of that, right? Like they’re sponges. And we carry these stories into adulthood and we apply them to our own life, even if they don’t apply at all. Right. So it’s like as a parent, you have the opportunity to really consciously teach, right, and customize and think about where your child’s strengths, where do they need to learn, right and really and really teach them in a thoughtful way about how to manage money. And I think that’s really empowering for folks to think about is like, even if your kid is 15, it’s not too late to start consciously teaching them how to manage money and to give them experiences that are going to let them learn how to manage money and how to think about money. 

Randall [00:31:43] Yeah, and the last thing I’ll leave, just as a thought for parents, is skill discovery is not the school’s responsibility. I believe what your child is good at, nurturing that skill and honing it in, should be part of the parents rearing up a child. Because what I say a lot of times is. Kids are going off to college without any passion. Um, they’re just going because that’s what they’ve been prescribed to do. But if they have been nurturing a skill or talent from grades one through 12, once they go to college or university, they’ll be able to kind of embrace that experience. And I’ve seen folks go through 25, 27 not loving what they do, but making good money. And that results in bad spending habits, which you’ve probably observed in people you work with. 

Linzy [00:32:29] Sure. Yeah. Because having actual passion, doing things that are meaningful, like feeling a sense of efficacy, tends to make us actually better at money because we are enjoying life. We’re not trying to make up for doing work that drains us all the time. And that’s really what, you know, over these past years of doing this work. That’s something that I’ve noticed, Randall, and I wonder if you see that in your folks too, is like, it’s about money and it’s about math, but more so it’s about meaning and values and like creating a life that you actually enjoy. Right. And these two things go hand in hand. But like one is not a replacement for the other. Making a bunch of money doesn’t actually give you meaning or satisfaction or let you live a values-aligned life. Like that’s work that you have to do separately. 

Randall [00:33:13] And I don’t market this to clients specifically. My goal is to give them the financial security and flexibility to do what they really want to do. Some clients that come to me around 35 years old and they don’t really know exactly what they want or how they want to achieve what they want to do, but they don’t take the risk because they’re not in a financial situation to do so. So if if I give them financial flexibility, you’ll naturally see their eyes open up and they take the necessary risk in their lives to be happy.  

Linzy [00:33:42] That’s so true. And I’ve seen the same thing with my Money Skills for Therapists students is once they have money working for them and they have enough of a foundation, suddenly there’s this other cool idea for this thing they’ve always wanted to do that they have the bandwidth to do, because now they have the financial stability to do it, right. And, you know, it makes me think about – my mom was an accountant. She was a cost accountant in a large company for 25 or 30 years. And then she was fired when she was 50. She had a boss that they did not get along, and he managed to get her cut out of the company. And I remember her calling me to give me the news. And I was so nervous for her, and she was like, now I get to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. And she ended up doing completely different work, like she ended up in community development and food security and like building these beautiful partnerships to give people like totally shame-free, equitable access to food, which had nothing to do with what she was doing before. But it was only because she had that financial. First of all, she was forced. Secondly, she had the golden parachute to let her think about what she actually wanted to do with her career. 

Randall [00:34:44] And I also think that, uh, a lot of people don’t realize you can have more than one career. I know therapists and counselors. They go through so many years of schools, so sometimes they feel trapped in that profession. But you can pivot. You can. I think what you’re doing is a great example of somebody who’s taking the skill set and they’re, you know, up rearing and then pivoting into something else. It’s okay to have more than one career in your life. 

Linzy [00:35:10] Absolutely. And I think it’s helpful for their boss to hear that because I know myself, like that therapist identity. You work so hard for it. And often you’ve been a caregiver your whole life, so you’re always kind of a therapist even before you were a therapist. And it can be hard sometimes to imagine who you would be if you weren’t primarily a therapist. But therapists are very talented, smart people. They’ve got a lot of a lot of different careers inside of them. Well, thank you so much, Randall. For folks who want to get further into your world, where can they find you? Follow you? Do you have freebies for them? Tell us about you. 

Randall [00:35:47] Sure. So the best way to get my contact and really connect with this on my website is going to be www.RSADEASIL.com. So that’s www.RSADEASIL.com. I’m on all social media platforms or most of them Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Just follow my content. I try to post on a regular basis. You can see how I’m thinking. I also host a YouTube channel called Building Wealth and Mental Health. So this is where I actually interview successful practitioners and see what they’re doing and how they’re doing it, because I think there is a slight veil in between mental health professionals or what’s going on, how I can make money. And my goal is to kind of remove that veil so they can really do what they want to. 

Linzy [00:36:27] Yeah. And you had me on your series. That’s how we met. So yeah, check out that series from Randall, and we’ll put all of your links in the show notes so folks can easily get over and follow you. Thank you so much, Randall. This has been a really interesting conversation. Thanks for being on the podcast today. 

Randall [00:36:41] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:36:56] I really appreciated the thoughts that Randall brought forward in this conversation about the importance of communication. You know, with your partner thinking about, um, your financial values. Do you mean credit cards are paid off on time? What do you want your life to look like? But also that communication with kids and parents. I think we are used to maybe starting to think about how are we going to model money to our kids. What do we want our kids to learn? But as you mentioned, like having those transparent conversations also with a generation above, with parents, is also really important because that’s also often part of your financial well-being, right? Like if a parent doesn’t actually have the money to cover their retirement, it’s really important for you to know that, you know, as you’re making your own financial plans and not have that be a surprise. And it gives you an opportunity to communicate openly with that parent about expectations and what’s possible and what they can take care of, and what you can do within a boundaried healthy relationship. On a call in Money Skills for Therapists this week I was talking with some students about therapists and money, and about how therapists having money, I think is good for the world, because we tend to be the people who do think about the well-being of our parents and our siblings and obviously our children. And when therapists and health practitioners and helpers and healers, when we have money, we tend to think about how that money can improve not just our life, but the lives around us. And I think we tend to use money that way, before we start to spend on luxury items and things that other types of people might spend on very quickly. And it’s really powerful when therapists have money, because we do tend to be thoughtful, that we can use that money to take care of our ecosystem, whatever that looks like for you. Right. But part of that is really being clear of what is happening with money in different parts of your ecosystem, having those conversations about money with your family and also being clear on your own financial needs and your own boundaries so that you can give help to, you know, the next generation down or the next generation up without affecting your own financial well-being and putting your own financial stability in peril. Right. So having that clarity about your own needs as well in that mix, lots to think about in terms of family and money. If you want to follow me, you can find me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts, and we’ll be back next week with our second episode in season eight. Thanks for listening today.