Sherry [00:00:02] I feel like there’s those two “me”s and sometimes I try to live in that more hopeful state, and I’m definitely a more positive person than I used to be. I’m able to do that a lot more often because I’ve had these opportunities of taking these courses and raising my fees and getting somewhere, and I’ve been so blessed with so much encouragement and support along the way. And I just really wanna name that. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s Money Skills For Therapists episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Sherry Merriam. Sherry is a LPC in Minneapolis. She’s been in practice for 13 years, working in health care for 22 years, and she’s worked at various group practices in the past, including co-owning a practice before. Just last October, she started her private practice and opened a collaborative practice in January, which we’ll talk about a little bit more during our coaching call today. Sherry was bringing forward today the challenge of how to structure your private practice and think about money and plan money when you have chronic illness. She shared about the limitations that her chronic illness puts on her clinical ability, but even her ability to do other things sometimes, and trying to think about this and actually build it in to the way that she’s built the practice. You’ll hear in our conversation she’s already made a lot of gains in this area. She’s definitely not starting from scratch. She’s already been very thoughtful. And we dug more into the details of how to build a healthy practice that financially meets her needs with that limited energy that she has. And the reality that if she does push herself, she pays the price in exhaustion and needing to crash. And so it’s not something that she’s able to push through. So if you are somebody who has chronic illness, if you are lower energy or find that you’re just your clinical limit is not as high as the people around you, this episode is for you. We really think through a lot of the pieces involved in making sure you’re setting up a practice that suits you and your energy and your needs and enjoy. Sherry, welcome to the podcast. 

Sherry [00:02:47] Thank you. Very glad to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:49] Yeah, I am excited to have you here. So we were just talking off mic about how you’d like, just finished Money Skills For Therapists. So I was just noticing that I haven’t seen you in a couple of weeks because I saw you quite a bit. You were very active in the course. 

Sherry [00:03:01] Right. I wanted to get everything out of it. 

Linzy [00:03:03] I’m very familiar with your your background. And and so for our time together today, tell me what you want to have more clarity on by the end of our call. 

Sherry [00:03:12] So something that has always been present in my work as a therapist is balancing the work, the money, and the chronic illness. And it continues to be present. And so just I always try to find ways to get support with that and to support myself through that. 

Linzy [00:03:32] Okay. So tell me right now, let’s say you start with right now, what are you noticing that are the challenges around that in this moment or recently? 

Sherry [00:03:40] Well, a perfect example is literally just this weekend. That’s how still present it is. We – my family and I – went away for a little mini vacation and it was lovely. And it was planned to be sort of a work retreat slash vacation, like do some fun things maybe during part of the day and then maybe do some do some work during part of the day. And my husband’s a writer. He likes to write. So he was going to get some writing time in and I was going to get some working time in catching up on some things. But my my energy levels just didn’t quite keep up. And so we had our fun adventuring. And then when we get home, I would need a three or four hour nap. And to most people, a nap is 30 minutes but, I lost all of my work time every day. And that was frustrating.

Linzy [00:04:30] Yeah. So a perfect example where even on a vacation you get depleted and you need a lot of rest in your day, it sounds like it’s hard to do all the things that you want to be able to do in the day. It’s just not possible sometimes. 

Sherry [00:04:43] Right. Right. Exactly. And I’m and achiever, like you saw in the class. I’m just always present. I want my A. I just listened to Jenn Fredette’s episode with you and you guys talked about we’re going to get our A. 

Linzy [00:04:56] Oh, yes. 

Sherry [00:04:57] And I’m there with you guys and I want to do well in my business. And I’m always trying to do everything which does not balance well with my illness. I have chronic illness, chronic migraines, chronic pain. And I push myself too far. And just like a lot of people with chronic illness and I just. I just want to do it all.

Linzy [00:05:16] Absolutely. 

Sherry [00:05:17] So that impacts my income, of course. 

Linzy [00:05:19] Of course. Yeah. So in your business and in your practice, tell me so far, what have you done to suit your practice to your energy and your needs? 

Sherry [00:05:29] There’s quite a few things I’ve done. I’ve tweaked a lot over the time and I’ve been a therapist for 13 years, and one of the main things that I’ve done is with my schedule and limiting the number of clients that I see in a week. I’m currently at about eight a week and I’m working my way up to ten. I just booked another new client today and I almost didn’t. I’m starting to build up my my new practice and I don’t work for other people. I don’t like to work for other people. Other people get mad. When you take sick days, the last group practice I worked for took it really well, but the one that I worked for not long ago did not take it well when I took sick days. And I understand it affects their bottom line. So I don’t like working for other people. I work for myself. 

Linzy [00:06:14] Yes. Yeah. Okay. 

Sherry [00:06:15] But I have to limit the amount of hours that I see clients or when that creeps up, then the sick days creep up as well. Because I have a system that’s a bed of energy, right? 

Linzy [00:06:24] So the more you work, the more your body’s actually going to say no or push back or whatever metaphor however you think about that. 

Sherry [00:06:31] Yeah, exactly. 

Linzy [00:06:32] It does it not let you just push through. 

Sherry [00:06:34] Up to a certain point, but then I will pay the price. 

Linzy [00:06:37] Yeah. The first thing occurs to me is just how good it is that you have built the skills to have your own practice. And I relate to you – not in having chronic illness, but just in not being able to see a lot of clients. Right. And that when we work for ourselves, we can do that. And as you say, when you’re working for someone else, their feelings come into the mix if you’re not able to work because you’re affecting their income. But it sounds like you’ve solved that problem, right? No longer are you having to deal with anybody else’s opinions or feelings or their financial anxiety. You’ve moved your business just completely into your own space and you’re doing your own thing. Now, something that I’m curious about, Sherry, is have you got the numbers working yet so that the amount that you work is enough for you financially? 

Sherry [00:07:18] No, that has always been an obstacle from the beginning because I’m so limited in the number of clients that I can see, the the income just doesn’t cut it. And you know, when you can only see a certain number of clients, and I’ve been insurance based up until last year, I took Tiffany McLain’s Lean In Make Bank class. And so I left that group practice in October of last year. And I went 100% private pay and that is helping a lot. And so I’m finally starting to make some real money, which is fantastic. And we’re trying to buy a house this year. And turning over my tax records was very discouraging when I looked at that bottom number. 

Linzy [00:08:00] Yes. 

Sherry [00:08:01] So, yeah, I’m definitely not there yet. Crunching some numbers and looking at what I’m charging and I just increased my fee again. So I’m trying to get there. 

Linzy [00:08:10] Yeah. Because I mean, that’s something that I would be curious about is, given where your fee is at this moment, you know, projecting forward, whatever that manageable number of sessions is not making yourself have to plan to work more but projecting for that a manageable and you said 8 to 10 is that clients in total or sessions per week. 

Sherry [00:08:29] That is sessions per week. 

Linzy [00:08:32] 8-10 sessions per week. So with that 8 to 10 sessions per week, do you know where you would land after business expenses this year? If kind of like that becomes the normal going forward minus the vacation time that you want to take? Do you know where you’re headed. 

Sherry [00:08:44] After expenses? No. 

Linzy [00:08:47] Okay. 

Sherry [00:08:47] Yeah, I’m working on that. Thanks to the tools that I learned from your course. 

Linzy [00:08:52] Yes. 

Sherry [00:08:53] I’m working towards that. I’m still plugging those numbers in. 

Linzy [00:08:56] Because that would be the first thing to figure out is, with the changes that you’ve already made, what do they mean? Because sometimes with business, I think it’s easy for us to want to see change happen fast. Right. And want that magic thing that suddenly we see the magic number of whatever number we’ve set for ourself, which is often an arbitrary number. And and you would get a lot of arbitrary numbers thrown at us about what success looks like. But for you, I’d be curious about what is your success number and how close is this path that you’ve already started to carve for yourself, the hard work you’ve already done of, you know, like doing the mindset work to be able to raise your fee and get off insurance. Now raising your fee. What does it mean for you this year? Minus business expenses. And in terms of resources that could be helpful for you with that at a high level, it could be the salary play sheet from Money Skills For Therapists to get you zoomed out. So once you have a sense of kind of your average business expenses, you can plug those in, but then you can set your goal and see how many sessions a week and your fee and have that zoomed out view on it because there is actually an equation there that will work. So it’s also just being curious of how high would your fee have to be to see that 8 to 10. And I would personally set it at eight, to see that 8 a week, and have all the numbers work. 

Sherry [00:10:10] Yeah. And that would leave me a little wiggle room, too, because I have a couple of supervisors that I see once or twice a week. And I love doing that work. And there’s also a consult group that I want to run. And so that would leave me a little room for those things. And I like that kind of variety as well. 

Linzy [00:10:26] Totally. Absolutely. 

Sherry [00:10:27] And I want to have energy for that. That’s one thing that keeps my energy up. 

Linzy [00:10:31] Absolutely. 

Sherry [00:10:32] Doing that kind of work. 

Linzy [00:10:33] And that’s absolutely the next place my brain was going is what are other income sources that maybe don’t tax you in the same way and you might be able to add on top of clinical work that you would still have a good week and make that a little bit extra money and not run the risk of of crashing. Right. And being depleted. And so I’m hearing clinical supervision is one of those things. Right. I know you also have a group practice. I don’t know a lot about that. Is that an income source for you? 

Sherry [00:10:57] It’s not yet. And what it is, is it sort of a group practice? Sort of not. It’s basically a medium sized sublet, but it’s run on a more collaborative model than most sublets. So we offer more amenities so that we can create more of a collaborative vibe, more of a community vibe. And so I’m charging rent and then they get a lot of perks. And then that way I’m nobody’s boss and they’re not my boss because I want everybody to feel independent and be able to run their practice their way. 

Linzy [00:11:27] Yes, I love that vision. Yeah. 

Sherry [00:11:29] Oh, and yet we have this great vibe. Like our last couple of staff meetings, we’ve been discussing these cases that we’re working on together, sharing families and that sort of thing. And it’s exactly the vibe that I wanted. 

Linzy [00:11:43] Great. Okay. Yeah. So with that, I hear, yeah, it’s not a typical group practice in the sense that, you know, you’re not getting a cut of people’s sessions and not their boss, but you are creating a space, you’re creating a community space, you’re kind of a clinic space where folks are independent clinicians, but there’s also all these nice sharing community elements to it. 

Sherry [00:12:04] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:12:05] So with that, my understanding that that’s not really profitable per say?

Sherry [00:12:08] Not yet. I need more tenants to help cover the bills. And so I’m currently still trying to build that because we just opened in January. Yes, I’m doing some networking, trying to get some more tenants in and then once I have enough tenants, I’ll be able to not only pay the bills but make some money on it.

Linzy [00:12:25] And do you know when that that flipping point is where you do become profitable and there’s some extra money above the bills? 

Sherry [00:12:30] It depends on who takes up how much space, because I’m offering full time, part time flexible this or that. 

Linzy [00:12:37] Okay. Because that’s something I would also encourage you to get some more clarity on because there’s kind of a couple paths here. And if that something I mean, it sounds very energizing, but you’re describing this beautiful community and I know being in the right space with other clinicians like it just adds lightness and support, which we all need in the work that we do. And I wonder how much that may be a path to creating more income for you that would be less tiring than clinical work and less taxing now. 

Sherry [00:13:09] And I do love it. I love the work that I, you know, creating this space was exhausting. It was four months of 80 hour weeks, which I do not recommend as someone with a chronic illness or for anybody. 

Linzy [00:13:24] Yes. 

Sherry [00:13:25] But now that it’s now that we have it, I love it so much. I’m so proud of it. 

Linzy [00:13:30] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So that would be something else I would encourage you to find out, because what can happen to us when we have clarity is then you can, in a focused way, go after who you’re looking for, right? If you run the numbers and realize like, okay, if I have three people doing kind of these like small subsets, it ends up being the same as like one person. Then maybe you- one full time, then maybe it’s spending your energy really putting out those feelers of like, I’m looking for someone who wants to join our community full time, incredible community, tell people that, you know, like then you can be very clear and envisioning what you’re looking for. And often that focus goes a long way to, if you want to be woo about it, calling in the right people, if you want to be practical about it, finding the right person because you’re asking the right questions and you go in the right direction however you want to think about it. How does that sit with you? That idea of this being another way to really offset the amount of clinical work you have to do? 

Sherry [00:14:22] Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. 

Linzy [00:14:24] Yeah. Because I mean, you built the machine, right? And worked very hard at it. And so it sounds like you’re actually very close to it working for you at this point. So that little bit of extra is going to tip you over into more ease. Because then the final piece, Sherry, that I’m curious about is do you know what your number is? Like what is your number of enough? Or that’s, you know, your sufficiency number where your needs are met. It’s good. You’re not going to be- there’s not going to be financial stress. And you don’t have to push yourself any harder. 

Sherry [00:14:55] Really. I don’t know. I’ve I’ve gotten so used to, for so many years, living on so little that – and I mean so little. I make less than my supervisee does. 

Linzy [00:15:06] Yes. Yes. 

Sherry [00:15:07] And both of my supervisees. And so I really should run some numbers. You’re right. That’s a good idea. And I think I’ve been afraid to, to be honest, I’ve been afraid to set my my sights on any kind of financial goal because I changed careers to become a therapist, to make more money. And I have not, in any one single year, made more money as a therapist than I did in my previous career. So there is a pretty distinct feeling of discouragement. I love what I do so much and I have no regrets in any way. I do really love what I do, but there’s so much opportunity for abuse and being taken advantage of, especially as a supervisor and those sorts of things that at this point I’m pretty discouraged, which is why I’ve taken such efforts through these courses and now I have hope, but I’m also afraid to have hope, you know what I mean? 

Linzy [00:16:02] Yes. 

Sherry [00:16:02] So so I think I’m on that cusp and I’m definitely seeing more money, you know, in the past, since October. But until I see it on my tax return, it won’t feel real. 

Linzy [00:16:14] That’s when it’s real. When it’s on your taxes. Yeah. 

Sherry [00:16:16] Until I see a number that’s bigger than, than what I was making when I changed careers. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:16:21] And I mean in that I hear, Yeah. That very familiar fear to hope. Right. It’s safer to not look or it’s safer to- I don’t know if it’s about staying small, like, well, where are you now? Like, what is the state that you’re in that you’re maybe going to move out of? Well, how would you describe where you are now when it comes to your numbers or your relationship with your earning? 

Sherry [00:16:44] I think I vacillate there’s the motivated business woman who listens to the courses and the podcasts and does the homework and looks around at what I’ve accomplished so far and feels so proud and encouraged and can do the work and make the accomplishments and get somewhere. And so there’s that. There’s that woman. Yeah, but then there’s the woman who, you know, is trying to apply for a mortgage and, you know, looks at the hard numbers and sometimes gets really discouraged. And so I feel like there’s those two mes and sometimes I try to live in that more hopeful state. Yes, I am definitely more positive person than I used to be. I’m able to do that a lot more often because I’ve had these opportunities of taking these courses and raising my fees and getting somewhere. And I’ve been so blessed with so much encouragement and support along the way, so much I never could have believed how many people have supported me and been there for me and helped me along the way. And I just really want to name that. And so I’m- it makes it easier for me to live in that headspace and do the work. And get there so that I don’t give up. 

Linzy [00:17:55] Yeah. 

Sherry [00:17:56] And that’s that’s a big thing that I think that really helps me. 

Linzy [00:17:59] Yeah. And I mean, with that, like that headspace or, you know, that motivated business woman part of yourself, how are you thinking about that part of you. I mean, what does that part of, you know, that maybe the the disappointed part doesn’t know about yet. 

Sherry [00:18:14] Like it’s possible. I’ve seen others do it. I’ve already accomplished so much and I’ve had so much help. And so many people believe in me, even when it’s hard for me to believe in myself. And if and when I do struggle, there are people to hold me up. 

Linzy [00:18:34] Right. Yeah. I’m really hearing this piece about support and community, and it sounds like that’s a big value for you, right? Because you’ve also created this community space to practice within. Right. And to share with other people. So thinking about your path forward with this then, Sherry, I mean, first of all, I’d like to invite you to think about what would it be like if you just let yourself work eight sessions a week and that was your normal, first of all, what would that be like for you? 

Sherry [00:19:00] That that is lovely. That is lovely. That’s what I was working about when I left the group practice last year. I had cut back to that. Yeah. And just the ease of that. 

Linzy [00:19:10] Yeah. And with that ease, what else then becomes possible in terms of your income, your life, what does that open up to? 

Sherry [00:19:18] It leaves so much more time for things like these other projects, like being able to get this practice off the ground, this clinic off the ground, and being able to focus on these sorts of things that I’m really excited about. You know, I was able to take on these two supervisees, which was an important value of mine for a variety of reasons. And so that’s that’s really special to me and really nourishes me as a, as a person, as a supervisor, as a clinician. And in a variety of ways helps me feel like I’m giving back to the community, to the professional community. Right? And so that allows that, which is fabulous and it gives me the space to just have a little brain at the end of the day. 

Linzy [00:20:00] Yes. And having a little brain at the end of the day. What does that mean for your life? 

Sherry [00:20:04] Yeah, there’s there’s possibility to- I’m home for dinner every day, except the one day that I decide to work late, and that’s mostly so I could do a workout class online in my office. 

Linzy [00:20:17] Yes. So is that something then that you’ve already kind of sorted out? Are you saying then like being home for dinner? 

Sherry [00:20:22] That’s a marker of like. Mm, I’m home for dinner with my family like every day except that one day that it’s because I’m working out, I’m able to adjust my schedule any way I want so I can work out in my office. And I love that, and I love those workouts. And I can do that because it’s my damn office. 

Linzy [00:20:41] Yes, yes, yes. And this is, you know, something that’s kind of coming to my mind as you’re talking is how do you continue to build out your practice as something that nurtures you, right? So that balance of the clinical work that you love, but maybe might at some point become a drain balancing in that clinical supervision work that, you know, lights you up and then the community pieces like you’re already in so many ways bringing that nurturing into your practice. So it makes me curious about like what little tweaks you make to make that even better. Where are the limits that you need to be setting, trusting that those other ways that you have of bringing in income are going to be there and allow you to function right and be well while supporting yourself financially. 

Sherry [00:21:22] Yeah. Variety has always been one of the best and worst things about me because I love to write. Because I love to do all the things. Yes, all the things. And the problem is, is I need to remember to do all the things that bring in revenue. So that’s that’s one thing that I need to stay focused on in my work is I can do all the things. But does it bring in money? 

Linzy [00:21:47] Yes. Yes. Well, and the beautiful thing is, once you’re clear on your numbers – and I am encouraging you to do that after we speak, like looking at that, what is the number you actually need to live? Right. And maybe holding the hand of that disappointed part internally, like doing that care because it is hard, you know, when when the numbers have not been what you want to see. And I can relate I will say in terms of mortgages because I always start businesses and then try to get a mortgage, which is like – wrong order. You’re not supposed to do it that way. I’ve done it twice now where I’m having to show like start up numbers and I’m like, No, no, but it’s going really well and be kind of judged really. You are being judged by a financial body. So I can relate to that experience. I will just say, but getting clear on what it takes to live. Right. And and maybe that’s a conversation that you have with your partner. What do you need to be earning between the two of you? Right. To support your household? And then getting clear on what is your hard boundary with clinical work? And then what are those other things that you want to be focusing on to maybe increase your income beyond what clinical work can bring you to hit that number that you need to not just live but be well. 

Sherry [00:22:50] Exactly. And that’s the be well part. It’s like, well, I’ve gotten by on a little up until now but the be well part, like since October roughly, or even more recently, I started doing monthly massages. And that’s been one of my. I’ve never done such a splurge on myself as pay for a massage and now I’ve started doing that and I would love to do that more often, but to splurge on it just once a month is already it’s just such a nuts thing for me to do. But my body as badly messed up as it is, I would love to do that more often. Just, just the fantasy of doing something like that. 

Linzy [00:23:35] Yes. Well and I think part of the thing is when we do have health issues going on, you know, or higher sensitivity or lower energy or whatever your version of being well might require more of those things than someone else who, you know, has a body that just lets them run all day and doesn’t ever seem to really, like, catch up with them. I would speculate that most people eventually we burn out, you know, when you push yourself hard enough for long enough. But certainly not everybody’s body speaks up or protests or shuts them down for 3 or 4 hours after, you know, like just a nice morning of doing vacation things. So. Part of it, too, is really looking at what are your specific needs? Maybe for you, a massage every two weeks or every week is basic self-care. Maybe that’s what your body needs to offset the things that are happening in it. Right. And I wonder what it would be like for you if you really made friends with those self-care needs and built them into the way that you think about what is just normal wellness for you. Baseline wellness, not a splurge, not a treat, but like this is what I do to take care of my body because my body lets me do literally everything else. 

Sherry [00:24:44] Mhm. Yeah. Put that as a line item in the budget. 

Linzy [00:24:47] Exactly. 

Sherry [00:24:49] Because it needs to be there. 

Linzy [00:24:50] Exactly. Exactly. So Sherry, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you taking away from our session today? 

Sherry [00:24:56] It’s really helpful to to think of these things as as fundamental and to think of that kind of self-care as part of not only, you know, who I am as a person, but also who I am as a therapist because it’s so necessary to the work to keep this machine going. This therapy doing and other thing doing machine. 

Linzy [00:25:17] All the things doing. 

Sherry [00:25:18] All the things doing. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And I think that that’s that’s so important to the functioning. Functioning is such a high priority to me, which is, I guess, ironic, since functioning is something I struggle with so much. And I think that it’s always useful to hear that feedback that it’s- because I eventually I’ll get it through my brain that it’s okay to need those things. It’s not only okay, it’s encouraged to utilize that and to not only to utilize them, but to work them into the budget and work them into the financial goals and to do what I need to do to make them fit into my professional life. 

Linzy [00:25:56] Absolutely. Yeah. And I wonder how those can just be neutral, matter of fact things or positive self-care things, but very much as you say, just built into your numbers and how you plan your money every month. 

Sherry [00:26:09] Right. Yeah. I think the more I hear that, the more- the sooner I’ll get there. 

Linzy [00:26:13] Yes. Yes. Thank you so much, Sherry. 

Sherry [00:26:16] Yeah, thank you. 

Linzy [00:26:32] Something that really sticks out for me in my conversation with Sherry today is, first of all, how easy it is to want to push past our limits. You know, whether you have limits because of chronic illness or even if it’s just that your clinical capacity, you can only see so many clients a week before you start to find that you’re getting drained, you’re not enjoying the work, you’re not being as effective. It can be so easy for us to want to push past those limits and, you know, set a range of, well, my ideal is this, but I can do up to this. I see this so much in Money Skills For Therapists when I’m talking with clinicians about our limits at our range. We are so used to pushing ourselves too hard and we’re so used to putting our own needs aside. That can be hard to really own. This is my boundary. This is how many sessions a week that I can do. But when we do set that boundary and when we set it in a clear and neutral way, it can open up so much opportunity. Like Sherry was talking about in this episode, to be curious about exploring other ways to bring money into your life and to, you know, top up that private practice paycheck from other places. If that’s something that energizes you, if you’re someone like Sherry and you love variety and you want to be doing multiple things, then setting a limit on the area where there might be limits already, which is one on one private work, that clinical work, then you have the opportunity like Sherry has to open up that collaborative practice, you know, do a consultation, start a clinical consultation group actually by saying No over here we’re able to say yes in other places. And that can be so nurturing and actually give us energy rather than depleting energy, which is what can happen when we push ourselves too hard. That second piece that I want to really emphasize again at the end of this episode is just how valuable it is to be clear on your numbers, to be able to make these decisions. Once you know how much you need to make, then you can see how much you need to earn. And to see how much you need to earn, you also need to understand what your business expenses are. Once you’re clear on how much you need to bring in the door because it costs you this much to run your business. So this is how much you can bring home. Then you can actually build your business to suit that. And like I was just talking about, that might not be that it all comes from one on one sessions, but then you have a number to actually aim for rather than just kind of feeling like, I need to earn more, I need to earn more. That’s a losing game, which makes us feel like it’s a never enough. But if we don’t actually have clarity on what enough would be, we’re never going to have relief from that. We’re never going to win. So that clarity is huge in letting us build practices that actually take care of us and giving us permission to stop and rest when we’ve actually hit that place where money. There’s enough. You’re okay. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. I am posting free private practice content on there all the time about both the practical and emotional sides of money. And of course, if you’re enjoying this podcast, please take 3 minutes to jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. It is the best way for folks to find us. I would love to have so many more years listening to these episodes and being involved in these conversations by proxy. And so if you could take a minute to review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for listening today. 

Kathryn [00:00:05] A lot of times I think, you know, we put too much emphasis on the art of building a private practice, but there’s a lot of science behind it, right? A lot of this is predictable. We can have more control over the number of calls coming in than maybe we give ourselves credit for. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode is with guest Dr. Kathryn Esquer. She is a licensed psychologist. She’s an MBA graduate, which you’ll definitely hear coming through in our conversation today. And she’s the founder of the Teletherapist Network, which is a private consultation community for the next generation of therapists. She is passionate about eliminating isolation and burnout in the field of mental health and has made efforts to prevent that by prioritizing connection and community through the Teletherapist Network, which brings together forward thinking therapists to create unparalleled success and their clinical skills, professional businesses, and personal lives. So today, Kathryn and I dug into the important information and numbers to be looking at and understanding in your private practice. These are called KPIs or key performance indicators, which I know is a very business term. That may not be the most appealing. But really what it’s about is understanding the numbers that tell us how our business is doing, and that can also tell us what we need to do to see that what we need to see in our practices, whether it’s revenue or a certain number of clients. By understanding these numbers that Kathryn and I are going to dig into today, you’re able to actually have some more control over what’s happening in your private practice. We talk a little bit today about how private practice can sometimes feel like something that’s happening to us and that we don’t have control over things, like the summer slump. But Kathryn really asserts that we actually can do a lot more than we realize. And understanding some of those key numbers and the information of what’s happening in our practice is the way to offset those things that it can feel like just happen to us. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Kathryn Esquer. Kathryn, welcome to the podcast today. 

Kathryn [00:02:50] Thanks Linzy. 

Linzy [00:02:51] So, Kathryn, you and I had the pleasure of meeting pretty recently, like within the last month or two. 

Kathryn [00:02:57] Like last week. Time flies when you’re having fun, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:03:03] Because of Instagram. I think that’s how our we became aware of each other. And you run the Teletherapist Network. That is your gift to therapists. And can we just start by talking just a little bit about what that is, so folks kind of a sense of who you are and what you do? 

Kathryn [00:03:17] Sure. So I am actually a clinical psychologist in private practice. And during the pandemic, I was feeling professionally isolated. My house was full of people. So I wasn’t personally isolated. 

Linzy [00:03:27] No. 

Kathryn [00:03:28] But professionally I didn’t have people to connect with. So I created the Teletherapist Network. So we’ve been around coming up here on two years and we are a private consultation community for therapists both in telehealth and also we have a lot of members who practice in-person but don’t have people, other therapists, to consult with. So we all know we can’t practice therapy in isolation. 

Linzy [00:03:48] No. 

Kathryn [00:03:49] Part of our ethics code. So we try and make it easy and affordable for clinicians to find consultation groups and meet their peers. 

Linzy [00:03:56] Great. So you’re connecting therapists in a quiet, kind of thoughtful way? I don’t know if quiet is the word you go for, but that’s a very positive thing to me. The word quiet because it’s like curated. 

Kathryn [00:04:07] Purposeful. Purposeful. 

Linzy [00:04:08] Yes, yes, purposeful. 

Kathryn [00:04:09] It designed it so that so we’re not on Facebook, we’re not on social media. It’s a private community away from social media. Because what I wanted in my life is somewhere I could go purposefully, log in, fill out my professional connection cup, and get out and get on with my life and my family. Like not get dings throughout the day. Like totally get there, get to fill my cup and move on with my day. So it’s not supposed to be a shiny object. 

Linzy [00:04:32] Yes. Yes. And something I find too, sometimes about like Facebook as a platform, is there’s so much blurriness between personal and professional that sometimes it does- it’s not the best place to actually have professional conversations like it’s a little bit of a messy space. And so it seems to be very much ‘you get what you’re paying for’. You get in, you get the information. There’s no other noise. You don’t learn about somebody’s dinner or their divorce. And you get out and you go on with your day. 

Kathryn [00:04:56] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:04:58] So today, when we were talking about, you know, what you wanted to spend our time digging into on the podcast, you came up with a word that is near and dear to my heart, but probably not super familiar for a lot of therapists and health practitioners listening, which is KPIs. 

Kathryn [00:05:14] Yeah. Key performance indicators. 

Linzy [00:05:15] Yes. So Kathryn, to get us started, what are key performance indicators? 

Kathryn [00:05:20] Yeah. So KPIs or key performance indicators are basically a measurable value that tells you how well are you meeting your practice goals? I mean, generally speaking, they’re business objectives, but we’re going to talk about them in terms of practice goals. Are you meeting them, are you not? It’s a measurable, identifiable value. And this is something we- I did a lot of. I actually have a business degree. I have an MBA in addition to the Psy.D. And so I really love blending both my business education and consulting experience with like private practice and helping people succeed and thrive in private practice and beyond. 

Linzy [00:05:55] Right. 

Kathryn [00:05:56] I mean, you can have KPIs for your whole life, too. I love I love key performance indicators, right? Like a family, you have KPIs. So I think that it’s not talked about enough in the general private practice world. 

Linzy [00:06:10] So KPIs they turn what’s happening in your business into numbers that then you can understand. Are those numbers on track? Are they what you need them to be? Or are you off track? 

Kathryn [00:06:19] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:20] Which I mean, immediately, you know, of course when I hear that, I’m like, oh, numbers, numbers are clear, you know, because it takes something that can feel, I think a lot of times as therapists, because we’re such emotional beings and often have such rich inner worlds, we could have a lot of stories about what’s happening. Your business, does it feel good? Does it not feel good? But sometimes there’s actually information that could be extracted that will actually tell us if something is working or not. That might actually give us a very different perspective than how we feel about what’s going on. 

Kathryn [00:06:49] Yeah, like the thing I was thinking about as I was getting ready for this episode was what’s an identifiable use of KPIs? And the thing that pops in my head is everyone talks about the summer slump, right? Of therapists. 

Linzy [00:07:00] Yes. 

Kathryn [00:07:00] Everyone talks about how people go on vacation. They don’t come in. And we all feel it, like no one debates that. Everyone knows it’s a thing. We all have more cancellations, more no shows, and people take breaks during the summer. Right. But I’ve never heard anyone talk about actual numbers going into or coming out of the summer. Like, so we all feel that it’s happening, just feel it in our business. But what are the KPIs? What’s actually showing us that it’s happening or not? Right. Yeah. So I thought that the summer slump was a great example of a situation where we can use KPIs. 

Linzy [00:07:32] Right? Yeah. So let’s dig into that. Like I guess first of all, what would be some of the KPIs for us to be paying attention to? The summer slump is a great one because I totally agree. Yeah. And that’s I mean, that goes exactly back to what I was just thinking and saying a moment ago of like there’s such weight around the summer. Like, Oh, people aren’t coming, but it’s like, in your week, is it actually four people who are canceling or is it ten? Is it half your caseload? Is it a quarter? Is it three quarters? We know emotionally it’s difficult. But what that actually means in terms of numbers, most people don’t know. So that sounds like one. That would be one thing that you could measure. What else should we or could we be measuring in terms of KPIs in our businesses? 

Kathryn [00:08:09] Yeah, so I think it’s important to delay between leading and lagging KPIs because they serve two different purposes. So the first thing is a lagging KPI, which is basically a snapshot of an actual performance within our private practice. That’s what most people think of when they think KPIs, like how much revenue did I bring in this month’s revenue for the month of May? Number of clients, the number of clinical hours worked. These are snapshots of something that is a performance of our business. But the thing that’s more difficult, I shouldn’t say more difficult, probably more difficult to think of to measure are the leading KPIs. So leading KPIs are these measurable factors that start to indicate we’re going on a particular trend. They come before the actual performance, right? So when we think about leading KPIs, we would think about what trends are happening before the summer slump that indicate we’re probably going to have a dip in revenue or a dip in number of of clients seen, right. So some leading KPIs are like the number of interest calls. We should always be tracking that, right? That’s a leading KPI because we should know our conversion rates, which is another KPI. How many interest calls do we have to take before we get one client out of ten calls? Do we get one client? Do we get two clients? We get five clients? And what’s our average intake process like? How many clients, after an intake, come back? How how many sessions do they typically have? Right. These are all things that we could be tracking and perhaps the summer slump, sure, maybe some people are just not seeking out therapy as much. And maybe it’s also about a lot of people start therapy at the beginning of the year and maybe our average length of retention for a client, we on average, we discharge clients after 4 to 6 months. That’s also timing around the summer slump. And those are two very separate things that you could be accounting for leading into the summer months. 

Linzy [00:10:00] Right. So those leading KPIs, those leading key performance indicators, they tell us kind of like what’s coming down the road, right? So if it’s like meh and suddenly you’re getting no client inquiries, that’s going to tell you that if you don’t change that, you’re about to have a big drop because you have folks actually drop off. You’ve got nobody new coming in the door to fill those spots. And that’s even before the summer has started that that trend is starting to show itself. 

Kathryn [00:10:25] Yes, these leading KPIs are where, in my opinion, the real gold is because you can alter that trajectory. Spending more time making networking calls. Another KPI you could be looking at is – and this is something that I started tracking – is how much time do I spend networking, how many hours a month do I spend networking versus how many new clients are referred to me? You can actually come up with a number that if I spend 5 hours a month networking on average, I get a return of five new clients a month, 1 to 1. But you can you can really put a price tag on those times spent networking with other clinicians. 

Linzy [00:11:05] Yeah I can hear your MBA shining through right now by the way. 

Kathryn [00:11:09] I get so passionate about this and haven’t used it in so long. 

Linzy [00:11:12] Yes, I don’t want to get ahead of us, but it’s very clear to me why that would be so helpful. So maybe, you know, let’s dig into that piece a little bit. If folks are listening, they’re like Kathryn, like, I’m not a tracker. 

Kathryn [00:11:25] Oh, I know. 

Linzy [00:11:26] I don’t even track my finances. Why would I track networking hours? What would be your response? Why is it worth it for us to, first of all, identify what we want to track and actually put in the energy?  

Kathryn [00:11:37] Yeah, I mean I can completely relate to that. Even with the Teletherapist Network. Like it took me a long time to actually start tracking KPIs because I didn’t want to look. I didn’t want to see.

Linzy [00:11:47] Oh I’ve been there. 

Kathryn [00:11:48] Our old friend avoidance popping its head. 

Linzy [00:11:50] Oh yes. 

Kathryn [00:11:50] And so I can completely relate to that avoidance. And I think that we as therapists know very well that we avoid things due to some of our own internal scripts. Right, and some of our own internal assumptions or beliefs about ourselves. And so really identifying the resistance obviously is number one, right? Like why don’t I want to look at how many clients I get in a month? Why don’t I want to track that? Like what- how does that make me feel? So this is a therapist question. You know, does it make me feel like I’m less than? Does it make me feel like I’m falling short? But the more we look at it, the less scarier it feels. As we all know. The more we look at it. 

Linzy [00:12:25] Yeah, that exposure makes you realize that you don’t die. When you look at that, you’re okay. 

Kathryn [00:12:29] Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the most underutilized KPIs for therapists is cost of acquisition. How much time or money does it take to attract a new client? Lots of us today have directory profiles for x number of dollars a month. Or we spend 2 hours a month networking. Or we send out five different referral letters a month. But, you know, understanding how much time and money it takes to attract a new client, especially for premium fee practices, is really important because take this example. If we spend $100 a month in ads, which might seem like a lot to some, $100 a month in advertising or marketing, and we get one new client, that’s actually a great conversion rate if your price for your first session is 250, right. That’s actually a great, great cost of acquisition. You pay $100 to get 150 back for the first session. And then if your average retention is ten sessions, you know, that’s $2500 that that client is on average – obviously, we have to be clinically ethical and not keep, you know, obviously – but on the average, we can expect them to stay for about ten sessions, that you pay $100 for cost of acquisition and you get a $2500 return. That’s a great like we should be spending more money on marketing and more time, more of our hourly time to be networking and getting those high, high price point referrals. 

Linzy [00:13:57] Right. Yeah. What I’m hearing, though, is if we don’t actually know those numbers, we can’t know if we’re making an investment. Right? Like, oh, is that $100 of marketing worth it? If you’re getting no leads, then no, it’s the wrong place, but. 

Kathryn [00:14:08] Right. 

Linzy [00:14:09] Yeah, because what I’m hearing in that is understanding too, by knowing kind of your average, your average amount that folks say an average is always an average. Some people might be two sessions and some might be 55. Right? So somewhere in the middle of all of your clients behaviors, there is an average we can aim for, by understanding that, you get how much it’s worth to do what you need to do to get that one client, whether it’s like networking, lunch with a colleague, whether it’s a Psychology Today ad, appearing in front of like a community group. You know how much it’s worth it for you to do those activities. 

Kathryn [00:14:40] Like a $250 lunch for a physician’s office to get consistent stream of referrals, that’s nothing, right? And I think therapists, generally speaking, I think it’s difficult for us, given the amount of time and money we invest into ourselves, into our education, and into the risk of of starting going out on our own and our private practice. I think it’s difficult to spend that money when we don’t see an immediate or a definite 100% chance of return. Right. So we buy that lunch, which seems like a lot, but the chances are you’re probably going to get some better referrals. 

Linzy [00:15:10] Yes. Yeah. And what I’m hearing is if you’re tracking, you’re going to know if it’s worth it. 

Kathryn [00:15:13] Yes. 

Linzy [00:15:14] Right. So let’s get into ‘the how’. I’m a big fan of the how. How do we track those KPIs in our practice so we actually know what’s happening? 

Kathryn [00:15:24] I’m a big fan of free Google Sheets. I think that most therapists out there probably already use Google Workspace, even if it’s just for a backup compliant video platform, but definitely take advantage of that. Google Sheets. It’s an easy way that you can have up on your desktop that you can easily track number of calls in and number of calls out. Google Sheets has a I think it’s called Google interface sheets interface. I forget what it’s called, but they have a really great way to visualize. You can you can start pulling the numbers and visualizing graphs and pivot tables and charts over time. So I really think Google Sheets is a great way. And if you keep it up on your desktop, you know, when you log into therapy notes or simple practice, whatever EHR you use, you log in to your Google sheets that has all of your metrics on there and you can just keep track as it goes. It’s a great way to keep it, remind, keep it fresh, keep it in your brain and make sure you track those. And to start off, I would really encourage people to track number of incoming calls. Absolutely. Number of new clients, number of sessions the client has gone through when they discharge. So you can start getting some very basic KPIs. What’s the average session retention? What’s the average number of calls I get a month to number of new clients? And then once you start seeing the correlation between number of calls and new clients, then you could start thinking, All right, so I get ten calls a month and I get two new clients. How do I get 20 calls a month? So I get four new clients? Yes. What can I do to increase those referrals? Right. So you can kind of work backwards in terms of starting, you know, where the money is and then working backwards to how many eyes you need to get or how many calls you need to get to get that conversion rate. 

Linzy [00:17:01] Because there’s an equation there, right? It’s like if you want to have three new clients a month, you realize it takes you ten calls to get three clients and you need to be putting yourself out there enough to get ten calls a month. 

Kathryn [00:17:10] And what does it take you to get ten calls? Maybe it takes you two networking events or $50 in Google ads or something like that. What does it take? So knowing that a lot of times I think, you know, we put too much emphasis on the art of building a private practice, but there’s a lot of science behind it, right? A lot of this is predictable. We can have more control over the number of calls coming in than maybe we give ourselves credit for. 

Linzy [00:17:32] For sure. Yeah. And the other piece of it that it brings to mind for me, and this is in my business, we use KPIs a lot for our online business. In fact, every Monday we kick off our week with our KPI meeting where we have this like massive complex spreadsheet that my spouse who works with me has. It’s really become a little overly complex. But to really understand, okay, what’s happening here, what’s happening here, what’s happening here? And part of what we have there is benchmarks. So there are certain numbers that we want to see. Like we want to see, for instance, like if folks watch our masterclass, there’s a certain amount of folks that we expect will buy off of that. And if we see that that number starts to drop, we know there’s something wrong. I’m curious, Kathryn, do you see that opportunity in private practice as well? Like, how much do we try to improve our KPIs when we identify them versus how much should we just kind of work with them as they are? Like, if I see that I’m only converting one out of ten client calls, how much do you think I should, like, accept that that’s the case? How do I know what that KPI should be? You know what I mean? Like where something needs to be fixed versus where does something just give us information? 

Kathryn [00:18:31] I think that it depends on a lot of different factors. Obviously, the market you’re in and of the sources of your referrals, I think a really good way to get those benchmarks, which is what we’re talking about here. How do I know if this is good or bad? How do I know if this KPI is good or bad? How do I know if I have to improve it or if this is excellent? Is really having that network of of peers to be able to talk about these really vulnerable- having these vulnerable conversations with being able to ask them like, hey, let’s do this together. I don’t know where my numbers are at, where ar yours at. Let’s do this together. Let’s improve together because different markets, different areas, different cities are going to have very different conversion rates. And different- you know, not all referrals are good referrals, right. So you have people perhaps on maybe the massive directories who mass email a dozen or so therapists, but then the warm handoffs from a fellow colleague, that’s going to be a higher quality referral, right? 

Linzy [00:19:25] Yes. 

Kathryn [00:19:25] So understanding what types of referrals you’re getting and what those specific ones are are going to give you a good indicator on what you should be looking for and comparing them, talking to your friends, again, trusted peers about what they’re seeing in their markets as well. KPIs are so different across all industries and when I think industries in private practice, I think geographic locations and also specialties. If you are a very niched down therapist, you’re going to have lower interest calls or referral rates, but they’re going to most likely be a higher conversion rate, right. So it depends on a lot of different pressures. 

Linzy [00:20:02] And it’s interesting because as you’re saying that, like, I’m thinking about my business now, like Money Nuts & Bolts and teaching Money Skills For Therapists since this is what I’m now doing all the time. And we have found that like since we’re very specific, it’s a very specific person we’re talking to, we’re not going to get a whole bunch of people coming into our world because like, first of all, you have to be a therapist or health practitioner, then you have to like have some struggles with money. You have to want, you know, to work on that, right? So there’s a whole bunch of kind of qualifiers that need to happen. But by the time those folks do connect with us, there’s a much likely higher chance that they’re going to want to work together because they’re like, You’re who I’m looking for. And it’s the exact same if you’re a very niched practice, right? Like if you are like you specialize in like CBT for dog walkers, you know, you’re not going to get a thousand inquiries. But those dog walkers that find you are like, Oh my God, I’ve been looking for you my whole life and you’re going to convert at a much higher rate. So that makes a lot of sense to me what you’re saying there.  

Kathryn [00:20:54] And you can also tie in a time cost to this. How much time do you devote to attracting new clients for each new client you got? Right? So say you take ten interest calls at 30 minutes each, right? Goodness of fit calls. And you only get one client. That’s a pretty low conversion rate for a pretty high cost. Right. 5 hours of your time. So having that niche can actually help you spend- make the cost of acquisition, especially in terms of your time, lower. 

Linzy [00:21:23] Right. Okay. So to kind of like summarize for folks who are listening and they’re like taking notes and they’re like, how do I do this? So your suggestion for getting started would be having a Google sheets. 

Kathryn [00:21:33] Absolutely. It’s free, easy peasy. 

Linzy [00:21:35] And the key things that they should. You would suggest that they start by tracking. I think the first was the number of inquiry calls. 

Kathryn [00:21:41] Number of new clients. 

Linzy [00:21:42] Mm hmm. 

Kathryn [00:21:43] Number of clients discharged in a month. 

Linzy [00:21:46] Mm. 

Kathryn [00:21:47] I’ll give you I’ll give you a little bit of a list here. And then with each discharge client, what’s the average number of sessions? So this might take a couple of months as you continue to discharge to get a really accurate average number of sessions. Right. Consider sample size. You also want to be tracking the number of clinical hours you put in a month. So how many hours did you work? Really, the clinical hours and then your your revenue, obviously. So you can tie that back. There’s a lot of different KPIs out there financially that are quick and easy numbers like, you know, your operating expense, what’s the percentage of that to your revenue and whatnot. But the in terms of marketing and attracting new clients, I think these are the really low hanging fruit that you can begin to track so that you can start to see, okay, x number of calls equals X number of new clients. How do I increase those calls? How do I get quality referrals? 

Linzy [00:22:35] Yes. Yeah. And to make this really explicitly about money, you and I know this is all about money because this is about, you know, how your business is functioning and your ability to kind of control your revenue, let’s, let’s dig into it a little bit more. If somebody is listening, they’re like, I’m still not sure if this is worth it financially. Why is it worth our time to do spreadsheets if maybe we don’t really like spreadsheets and we don’t want to? 

Kathryn [00:22:58] Well, that’s it. That’s a juicy question. Why is it worth our time? Well, I assume that the worthiness of our time, we can put a dollar amount on that. Right. So even then, you could have a KPI for how much time do I spend tracking versus what? How have I been able to grow my revenue? Odds are, is that when you start looking, knowledge is power. We all know this, right? We have a knowledge of what how we bring in money and what brings us in more money that is going to allow us to start tailoring our time to the things that bring in the revenue right to the to the tasks that bring in the revenue as opposed to the feeling of what we think we should be doing. Right. So I think that there is – I haven’t done it – but you can absolutely assign a time, a value on our time and our time spent tracking KPI. I think it’s going to bring in more money than it spent you in time. 

Linzy [00:23:52] Absolutely. And something that makes me think about is it really is you sinking into that role of like the leader of your business or CEO, you know, kind of money boss thinking where probably it’s actually not going to take that much of your time. But it’s time where you’re being thoughtful and analytical and zooming out on your business. Right. And so it might actually take you only an hour to go back through your last few months and compile this data just going through like your call records. How many calls did I get? How many new clients who left? How long did they stay? And I know for me too, I used Jane App, which is a clinic management software which is really popular in Canada. And they actually gave me some of these metrics. They would actually tell me my average amount of sessions per client, like they were running that number for me all the time. Right. So sometimes these numbers are actually like maybe more on hand than we realize too. But by me taking an hour of my time to set it up and then maybe another 15 or 20 minutes every week, I’m able to make strategic decisions rather than kind of flailing a little bit in the dark about what is actually making a difference in my business. And it sounds like you’d actually able to get ahead of things, too, if you identify in May, like, oh, shoot, I’ve had a huge drop in my inquiry calls and I know that every month I have about five clients finish up. Yeah. If I don’t do something to up my inquiry calls, I’m about to be in like a desert in August. So you’re able to be thoughtful and strategic because you’ve taken what is not a lot of time, but you’ve put thought into your numbers. 

Kathryn [00:25:18] Absolutely. And like you said, working ahead is the key here. This is giving you info about what is true, what is likely to come. We should say it’s not guaranteed, obviously. Pandemic has taught us that. 

Linzy [00:25:29] Yes. 

Kathryn [00:25:30] But what is likely to come in the future and not only tell you what’s likely to come, but it also gives you the steps to change that course, right? It gives you the steps of, okay, if this drops, here’s how I can increase this number. Here’s how. These are the steps I could do to make this number likely to increase, which would increase the following number. You can see the chain of events. 

Linzy [00:25:50] Yes, yes. It’s empowering people to see that. Right. And I think sometimes as therapists, too, because most therapists don’t have an MBA and didn’t come into private practice because they’re like, you know what, I love business, right? And so often I think therapists and health practitioners, we experience our practices, which are businesses, as something that’s happening to us. 

Kathryn [00:26:11] Yes,. 

Linzy [00:26:12] Happening to us. We don’t feel empowered or like we have control over what’s happening. And what I’m hearing with this is this is a shift into you understanding the trends, understand what’s happening and seeing where you can actually take actions. 

Kathryn [00:26:25] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:26:25] That would change the course of what is happening because you’re actually taking stock and then you can make decisions and do things to change the outcome. And as you say, we don’t have ultimate control like we can never control all of our clients staying or magically conjure up 50 inquiry calls. But we certainly know what some of the things that we can do to bump things in that direction, but only if we actually have the information in front of us. 

Kathryn [00:26:48] Yeah. And I would encourage anyone listening to you to start tracking them, even if you don’t – if you feel overwhelmed by going backwards, start checking from this point forward. Ideally you get, you know, six months of data, but start tracking from this point forward and see how it goes. I think it’s really, really empowering, like you said, because the summer slump doesn’t happen- we all feel like it happens to us and there’s nothing we can do about it, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. There are clients out there, right. And so when we know that this trend is on the forefront, we can be taking the steps to mitigate it in terms of our business. 

Linzy [00:27:19] Ahh. Thanks, Kathryn. Tell us a little bit more- first of all, I wanted you to talk a little bit more about the Teletherapist Network and how folks can find that or get a taste of that. 

Kathryn [00:27:31] So I’m there all day, every day, so come on and join me. I would talk your ear off with KPIs, despite what this podcast is about, it is not about practice building, although we do support clinicians in practice building with referrals and some master classes. Linzy was just on with an awesome Q&A session about finances and private practice. But we mainly support clinicians in preventing isolation and burnout through consultation groups, making sure we’re delivering clinical our clinical services are up to par and that we’re not missing anything. Identifying those blindspots.

Linzy [00:28:02] Yes, yes. Which we all have.

Kathryn [00:28:03] So you can find us. Exactly. I found like three today. You can find us at WWW dot Teletherapist Network dot com or you can find us on Instagram app Teletherapist dot Network and I would love for any of you listening to try us out and join us, see if our close knit community is for you. And we’d love to give you $25 off your first subscription with the code NUTSANDBOLTS all one word. So hopefully you can you can join us there. 

Linzy [00:28:35] So it sounds like a great way to try it out. Yeah, I got the discount code and we’ll put all of those links and the code in the show notes for this episode. So you jump over there on your phone or on your computer to get those links. Thank you, Kathryn, for sharing that offer to our listeners. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for coming on and talking about KPIs and numbers with me today. I really enjoyed it. 

Kathryn [00:28:53] I loved it, any time. Any time you need the the business, the numbers end of private practice. I am so your girl. Love it.

Linzy [00:29:00] Awesome. Thank you. In my conversation with Kathryn, it really sticks out to me how, you know, knowledge is power. Like she said, it can be so tempting for us to not want to look at certain numbers. And I have definitely been there at different stages of my business as I’ve been scared or as Kathryn says, you know, if there’s the possibility of stories coming up like I’m failing or this isn’t working, it makes it really hard for us to look at what’s happening. Right. Because it triggers all of those thoughts and feelings and it’s just a terrible experience. But on the other hand, by actually looking at and understanding, first of all, you know what matters, what are those? As in KPI, speak lead indicators and leg indicators. Lead indicators are things like how many calls are coming in, how many of those folks are converting? And then the lag indicators, how much are you making? Right. That’s what happens later as a result of those early things, by understanding those things and what is normal for you and your practice and your your niche, then you actually have the information and power to do something, to improve things, to take actions that are going to set you up, to have the amount of clients that you want to have and ultimately have the revenue that you need to have to get paid. Well, at the end of day, this all comes back to how well our practices are doing and taking care of our practices so that our practice can pay us well and take care of us. And we continue to be well in doing the work that we do that can be very demanding work. So it’s that knowledge is power piece taking the time to settle in and spend what might only be half an hour or an hour to start to get yourself acquainted with your KPIs might give you some really helpful, interesting information that will allow you to make more informed, more strategic decisions in your private practice, regardless of what level you are or how new or how many decades you’ve been in your private practice. If you would like to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts & Bolts. I am sharing free, practical and emotional money content on there all the time. And if you are enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find the podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Dena [00:00:03] The word expansiveness keeps coming to me as I think about what’s the opposite of perfectionism. And expansiveness includes so much bigness and being out there and risk and reward and connection. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course, Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s podcast guest is a returning guest and Money Skills grad, Dena Omar. Dena is a therapist who focuses on working with marginalized folks. They are a clinical supervisor and they are the creator of a brand new course for therapists called The Anti Oppressive Therapist. Today, Dena and I dig into perfectionism in money. We talk about what that looks like, what that has looked like for Dena specifically, and looking at hyper independence and fear as part of perfectionism, Dena gets into how perfectionism is an extension of white supremacy and also shares about how a cancer diagnosis shifted their relationship with both perfectionism and money and vulnerability. We get into alternatives to perfectionism, talking about what that can look like, both in money and in business and in life. And really, we ended up having a lot of discussion about vulnerability and connection, and about how vulnerability and letting go of perfectionism a bit. This kind of visual of loosening our hold on needing to have control and be super independent actually leads to more connection in our personal and our professional lives. Here’s my conversation with Dena. Right, Dena. Welcome back to the podcast. 

Dena [00:02:21] Thanks. Linzy, I’m really happy to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:23] I’m so happy to have you here. I’ve had really great feedback from folks about our previous conversation about private practice finances, corruption, and money, and now we get the chance to talk about something different today. I think we could probably talk about like 12 different things. I think we’ve got at least twelve episodes in us. But today, we’re going to take some time to talk about perfectionism. So, Dena, I know from having worked with you in Money Skills For Therapists a couple of years ago now, that perfectionism has something that you have grappled with with money, and I have as well. And so I’m really curious to get us started, how did you notice that showing up for you in your relationship with money? 

Dena [00:03:08] Yeah, that’s a great question. So perfectionism for me manifested as fear, and that fear manifested as I need to do all the things all the time without breaking, without slowing down. So I was – I’ve said this to you before – I was over-systemed. I was using all the tracking methods. I had QuickBooks and Excel and YNAB and probably one other one. But I can’t even remember right now because I was so scared of not doing it right, whatever right was. I knew that if I had all these things, I would do it right and I would be perfect and nothing would ever fall between the cracks or fail. 

Linzy [00:03:46] So yeah, because I think with the fear, like there’s kind of two ways that I think that can manifest in the extreme right. The one that I see a lot and that I think is probably maybe a little more common is avoiding. Right? You’re afraid, so it’s like don’t want to know, can’t even handle it. But what I’m hearing is for you, like that fear manifested in this like looking all the time, like always tracking, always, you know. Were you a checker? Did you check a lot? 

Dena [00:04:11] Oh, yeah. Yeah. First thing in the morning, I’d wake up, grab my phone and check my bank account. Like that was my habit. It was a lot. 

Linzy [00:04:18] Yes. And for you, on an emotional level, what was that experience like of like waking up, grabbing your phone, looking at numbers? 

Dena [00:04:25] Oh, Linzy, it was exhausting. It was just exhausting. And I never had time off because I was always worried about the business and that worry and that fear. It just sneaks up on you everywhere. There’s no time to enjoy. You don’t get joy when you’re steeped in worry and fear. I think the other thing that fear, worry, perfectionism connects with white supremacy culture, which is the thing that I’m all in right now, doing research and doing my Ph.D. program and all the things that I’m doing. And one of the things that that does is it disconnects us from others, and it really pushes us away from talking to people about the places where we feel vulnerable, where we feel scared, getting help in ways that we really need it. So that was one of the biggest hurdles for my joining the Money Skills was. Oh, I have to ask for help and recognizing that that was a big deal and that I needed to do that and connecting with others around it. Yeah. Changed everything, really. 

Linzy [00:05:25] Yeah. Like, I’m curious. Well, just to stop. I’m so glad it did, Dena. I’m so glad it did. And I love all the things you’ve done since then, which we’ll talk about later. But I am curious if you could unpack a little bit more about this piece of perfectionism and white supremacy. If you have like an elevator pitch version of that, like, tell me how these things are connected, because I think a lot of folks probably don’t think about it that way. 

Dena [00:05:46] So white supremacy culture – and I’m going to pull on a lot of the work that Tema Okun has done. She’s pretty amazing. She wrote a White Supremacy Culture article back in 1999 that’s been pretty defining in the world of what is white supremacy culture kind of thing. So it refers to the ways that elite or ruling class culture took over every other culture that it encounters. We talk about decolonizing. I don’t know if you heard that podcast Decolonizing Social Work, but we talk about decolonizing. The work that we do really means kicking out the ways that European influences came into this culture and settled here and made the only way that we could be the right way, which was the white way. 

Linzy [00:06:36] So there’s one right way which is like superior, like in that too, I would hear that there’s like a superior or an inferior. You have to be on the right side. You have to be doing it right. 

Dena [00:06:45] And yes. And those things include being focused on the written word rather than the spoken word. And so when we look at our practices and we all have to write notes, that’s one of the ways that white supremacy culture comes into therapy practice, because we get in trouble if we don’t write notes. I can’t just tell you what happened. That’s not right. I can write an email to somebody. That’s a legitimate way of communicating. But, you know, they can say, Oh, I didn’t get your phone call. And that might not be legitimate. So there’s ways that it impacts us in ways that we don’t even think of. 

Linzy [00:07:18] Oh, sure. Yeah, of course. Right. So this kind of, like, rigid, right. You know, that is steeped all throughout our culture that, like, you could do things either the right way or the wrong way. I mean, obviously, you can show up in so many ways in our lives. And in terms of money, like for you, it shouldn’t be like over systems checking. Fear of doing it wrong. Right. Like needing to have that. It sounds like to me – I’m making these motions that nobody can see because this is a podcast, but I’m like, clenching my hands tight, like you need to have rein on it, you need to have control. 

Dena [00:07:51] Tight. Yes. 

Linzy [00:07:52] Yeah. So I’m curious for you Dena, like you had mentioned that money skills was part of your unwinding of that. But I’m curious, what have been your your turning points in starting to let go of that perfectionism in your relationship with money? 

Dena [00:08:06] Yeah. So I think after doing money skills and getting some actual skills for doing money in a different way, the fear, the fear decreased quite a bit. And I was able to say, okay, I can do this without magical thinking. I can do this by asking for help and having other people involved in my business. I went on to some other coaching and then life happened and last September I was diagnosed with breast cancer and things just sort of were out of my control. And I finally just had to say, I’m not in charge here as much as I want to be, and that’s okay. How do I be okay with rolling with things as they come, having a looser – you’re doing the tightening grip – and I’m like, how do I have a looser grip on the things and still be motivated and moving forward and doing good work and all of those things and have a looser grip on it because I’m really not in control. I’m not in charge here. So it was a quite a journey of coming to that realization. It’s okay. I can be okay and not be perfect. 

Linzy [00:09:13] Yeah. And I mean, I think that in some ways that’s the ultimate wake up call when we’re faced with our own mortality. Because I certainly know for myself, like I’ve seen other folks go through experiences that, you know, like I try to remember it and inform, but it’s so different to have an embodied experience of like coming up against your own mortality and like, I’m hearing for you, this like loosening, like control is kind of an illusion. 

Dena [00:09:36] So much an illusion. 

Linzy [00:09:37] And you know, at the same time balancing with not being, like, powerless and like it’s happening – everything’s happening to you. And I’m curious, like, for you, is there like an image? You’re like, how do you understand kind of where you’ve come to rest with that loosening or letting go? How do you think about that? 

Dena [00:09:55] Yeah, I really feel like I’m going to go back to the word connected and disconnected and really say that letting myself be vulnerable in ways that I never expected to, letting go of that perfectionism, of the image of who I wanted to people to see me as, has really let me connect much more deeply with people and let them help me carry things which I never expected either. There’s part of that perfectionism and that toxic independence that we do and that those of us in solo practice we tend to do because that’s why we’re in solo practice, because I don’t work for somebody else, right? So like letting other people in and to see the vulnerability and to realize that people care about you not in spite of your vulnerabilities, but because you’re vulnerable, was a big shift for me. 

Linzy [00:10:50] Absolutely. I mean, there is – and I could be like totally misquoting this, but I, I had a client once who told me this story about the Benjamin Franklin effect. I’m going to tell the story now then I’m gonna ask the internet later and we’ll see if it’s real. But it is this idea. It’s kind of like the story, like Benjamin Franklin was this very like respected, learned man, you know, like kind of very accomplished in his community that he lived in. And he had like a little bit of like a nemesis who was the other respected learned in town. Right. And like they weren’t friends. Like, they they did not get along and they probably like, had ego clashes because they each thought of themselves as, you know, extremely distinguished. And Benjamin Franklin had this incredible library. And this other man also had an incredible library, but this other man had a book that Benjamin Franklin didn’t have. And so he asked the other man if he could borrow this book. Right. Which was this real kind of like having to put a side of these airs and like is a vulnerable act. Ask if he could use something so valuable that this other person had. And the other man lent him the book and ultimately they became friends over that exchange because people want to help you and they want to know you and they want to – like our vulnerabilities are so much closer to the core of who we are than that polished like in parts work you would be talking about managers right then that manager presentation that like perfect put together like armor that we wear. And I think a lot of people are hungry to connect with us as individuals in ways that we don’t let them do when like, I’ve got this under control. I got it. And we’re not letting them connect with us as humans or help us. I think that there’s there’s a lot of beauty that comes from when we do. 

Dena [00:12:37] Yeah. Share the vulnerability and it gives people permission to be vulnerable in return. And when we’re aloof and then people shut down, that’s not what we’re trying to do. 

Linzy [00:12:47] I’m curious with you then, with the money piece of it. What does it look like now? Like what’s different now that you have gone through this experience of breast cancer diagnosis and you have shared with me before we started recording that you are stable and everything’s… 

Dena [00:13:05] Yeah. Seems to be good right now and so that’s that’s been a coming back around. So when I was going through treatment I had radiation and it when everything kicked off, I was working a lot less. And so some of that fear came back and, and it wasn’t an imaginary oh I don’t – scarcity fear. It was actually legit. Do I have enough money here. 

Linzy [00:13:28] Where there is a real number. 

Dena [00:13:29] Right. Yeah, it’s a real number. So I was able to share that with the people close to me and talk with my wife about it in a way that was very different than I would have. Much more honestly and much more directly than I would have in the past. And get some support around it and recognize that I don’t have to do it alone, that I don’t have to be the only one. So again, that connection and disconnection, I did not go through it alone and that was a huge shift for me. I would have just bottled it up and kept it inside and strong and stoic. And I don’t want to be that. 

Linzy [00:14:06] Yeah, it’s exhausting and it’s lonely. 

Dena [00:14:08] And lonely. Yeah,. 

Linzy [00:14:10] Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like in some ways what I’m hearing is like you, you let go of this being a project that you always have to do well. 

Dena [00:14:17] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:14:18] Like financial responsibility that you take it on your own shoulders. And what has it been like in your relationship to, at least for that time, having kind of shared that vulnerability and like maybe pooled responsibility more or whatever that. 

Dena [00:14:32] Yeah, it’s been really huge and being able to talk openly has been really shifting in how we do a lot of things in our relationship and get through a lot of difficult things. We have intentional conversations, not just conversations about money or about household tasks or things that need to be done. We can be much more direct with each other and I have come to believe that I’m supported and that I don’t have to be out there on my own. And and that’s a big shift for me individually. That’s big change. That I can be helped, that people can help me, and it’s okay. 

Linzy [00:15:12] Yeah. And I think that makes you think about how even so often, like in partnership, whether it’s marriage or dating partnership or in, like in families, so often we perfectionism does keep us like alone and separate, even though there are people that like we’ve literally legally combined our situation. 

Dena [00:15:29] Yes. 

Linzy [00:15:30] How much we can still be alone in that when we are like in that I need to take care of myself in more of that like rigid independence. I’ve got this space now. There’s a missed opportunity for connection. Yeah. Even with that on paper, it would be awesome that we are connected about this. And of course we feel supported by our spouse. 

Dena [00:15:49] And I feel like that toxic independance goes right back to the systems of oppression that we face. Yeah, patriarchy, capitalism. Last time we talked, we talked a lot about capitalism. I still haven’t found a workaround for capitalism. I think it’s really hard and white supremacy for those of us who are people of color, like all of this creates a trauma that we respond to and that toxic independence is a trauma response. And when we start to heal that, we realize we don’t have to be so independent. So. 

Linzy [00:16:22] I mean, thinking about what the alternative looks like, right? Perfectionism kind of puts us in this like tight little box. Whatever your specific narrative of what perfect is semantically, it just feels very tight, right. And rigid. I’m curious, Dena, from your experience, how do we break out of that box? What does it look like to live differently? 

Dena [00:16:44] That’s a really good question. I think we need to have a vision. I always say to clients, we need to have – we need to know where we’re going in order to get there. Otherwise we’re just going somewhere. And I think about the word expansiveness keeps coming to me as I think about what’s the opposite of perfectionism. And expansiveness includes so much bigness and being out there and risk and reward and connection. Another word that comes to me is emergence. As as we emerge, I think about the the most basic therapy metaphor, which is the butterfly in the cocoon. I feel like for the last year I feel like I’ve been in the cocoon, right? I moved from the larva stage and now I’m in the cocoon and it’s messy and gross and icky. And then you emerge and you become another stage, another thing, another vision of yourself and all the time being who you are. So I think about those two words emergence, and it kind of just goes against perfectionism, thinking about getting bigger and taking more space and getting more. 

Linzy [00:17:56] And something that comes to mind with me. To me, when you talk about like expansiveness into your space, which are like currently pet topics of mine that I think and talk about a lot because it’s been my own kind of journey and work that I’ve been doing the last couple years. This is also being imperfect in front of people, not having this like polished specific presentation, but almost like trying different stuff and seeing what lands and seeing what, you know, if it’s in your business, then it’s like seeing what attracts the right people to you. Like, what are your people getting excited about? And just like trying a bunch of stuff and seeing like how to call them your people. And that means that a lot of times you do things that don’t land or that you’re like, Wow, that wasn’t it good.  

Dena [00:18:38] That wasn’t quite right. Yeah

Linzy [00:18:39] Yeah. And like, I know in my business sometimes it’s like trying something and they’re like, okay, I can see why that works for this other person, but it doesn’t work for me because of this. But I only know that because I’ve tried, right? I’ve only know it because I did it in front of a lot of people. I recently launched a level two mastermind and you and I have masterminded together before and I’ve kind of shifted and added some curriculum and then I launched it. I was like, Okay, let’s go. And I launched it and I called it CFO School and the email went out and my gut was just like, that wasn’t it. So then I pivoted in front of several hundred people and said, Actually, that is not the name of the program. Yeah, this is the new name. It’s Money Boss Mastermind. But it’s like I actually had to say it in front of several hundred people to realize, Oh, that didn’t sound right. And nothing bad happened.  

Dena [00:19:26] No. The world didn’t swallow you up. 

Linzy [00:19:28] Nobody swallowed me up. Nobody was like, I’m embarrassed and I can’t believe you. Nothing. In fact, it only called in my people more. And I had folks who were thinking about the mastermind saying the fact that I’ve just seen you pivot in front of all these people just makes me even more want to take the mastermind because I was – not consciously but actually like demonstrating being vulnerable and and shifting in front of a whole bunch of people and not pretending that I have it all figured out and it felt fine. Yeah, it was actually not as hard because I think I’m getting used to it. 

Dena [00:20:00] Yes, something about exposure. 

Linzy [00:20:03] It’s that exposure. And when you have to look and realize, oh, I’ve done this so many times and literally nothing bad has happened, it’s like maybe I’ve gotten a couple of emails from men who were like, you know, not everybody is a woman. And I’m like, Goodbye Sir. Thank you so much, you know, you don’t belong on my email list. But that’s literally the worst thing that’s happened is I’ve upset somebody who is like, What about me? So yeah. 

Dena [00:20:28] Which is a sort of patriarchal response. Let’s call that out. 

Linzy [00:20:31] 150,000%. And that’s something I’ve even learned about it with my team is like, now we’re very good at spotting that and being like, No, we’re not even remotely going to spend any of our precious human energy on – what would the word be… humoring a conversation we now know we just like shut that right down. No, give it no more of my precious energy and and move along. 

Dena [00:20:51] So so here’s the other thing that that’s making me think of is what you’re saying is that there really isn’t a connection between perfectionism and excellence. We think that there is. If I’m perfect, I’ll be excellent. Yeah, but here you demonstrated how to be not perfect and excellent, and you filled your program. And people are going to benefit so much from what you have to give them. 

Linzy [00:21:16] And that’s an excellent distinction. Thank you. And I remember actually, like, a would-be therapy exercise that I had working with somebody who had perfectionism talking about that distinction. But I think that’s a really clear illustration of it is it’s like when we are in that tight space with our money or with our businesses and with our branding, we do think that making it perfect makes it excellent. And as you say, that’s absolutely not what it is, because I think excellence is like authenticity. It’s stumbling and letting other people see that you too stumble, right? Like the people who want to work with you want you with all of your humanness, because they’re coming to you in all their humanness. And if you’re asking them to do vulnerable work with you, it’s not fair to do that from this polished like that. That’s not what you call it. But that almost seems like more of an authoritative relationship where I get to the perfect and you have to be messy. 

Dena [00:22:06] Exactly. The power dynamic that that sets up is really ugly and really, really goes towards replicating all of the problems that we’re talking about.  

Linzy [00:22:19] So I’m curious because you are launching a program yourself. 

Dena [00:22:23] I mean, talk about scary. 

Linzy [00:22:27] So I’m curious, can you speak to your experiences of like putting yourself out there and like being expansive as someone who’s been more used to being perfectionistic in your life? 

Dena [00:22:36] Yeah, it is a big shift. And I said to somebody the other day, I’m like, it’s nerve-citing. So it’s nervous and so exciting both at the same time. Yeah. And you really do. You put yourself out there. And this is a thing that I’ve been working on for a long time and I’ve been planning for for a long time and goes with so much of my personal work, my professional work, and now my academic work that I’m doing. And the fear is, Well, what if people think I’m wrong? What if people think I’m full of it? What if people don’t? What if I am too vulnerable and people don’t see my authority in this? All those questions come up. That question of who am I to do this? And again, going back to the mastermind group that I’m in right now and how those folks have supported me and encouraged and helped me see that perfectionism isn’t going to get me there and that being vulnerable, being authentic. One of the things that’s been really helpful in those groups is identifying things that are going right and reflecting that rather than the things that are going wrong. Hey, you failed in this doesn’t encourage anybody, doesn’t make anybody more expansive or bigger. And connecting really does. And this is key. Yeah, this feels crummy. And look at this great thing you did. This is really helpful. 

Linzy [00:23:59] Because I do think that, too, when we have been perfectionistic in nature and certainly has been my story for most of my life, you amplify that thing that didn’t work work. You miss all the amazing things you’ve accomplished, whether it’s, you know, finances. You miss the fact that you’re actually making more money than, like, literally ever before. 

Dena [00:24:15] Than you think you are. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:24:18] You know, or like you, you’re working less, but you’re making the same, like, whatever those – and this is what I tell my students in Money Skills For Therapists – is sometimes it’s like if you have that tendency, you will find the number on your spreadsheet that’s the one you don’t like because that’s always going to be in the mix somewhere, right? And you’re going to miss the 14 numbers that are telling you an amazing story. And it sounds like what you’re getting in the mastermind. I think the beauty of masterminds and what I’m so excited to be running my mastermind that just started is like you do get that real in-depth support for folks to like really reflect to you like, okay, you know, I’m hearing this, but also I know that the da da da da da. And they do know several months of you like kicking ass that you’ve just overlooked to focus on this, like micro thing that didn’t go how you want it. 

Dena [00:25:00] Right and builds that connection. I don’t think we can understate how much how important that is connecting to people. 

Linzy [00:25:07] Absolutely. So, Dena, for folks who are curious about your program, can you tell us about your program that you’re launching? 

Dena [00:25:16] I’m so excited. I’m calling it The Anti Oppressive Therapist and it’s a six-week introductory course to help – white therapists are my target audience right now – who are struggling with becoming more anti oppressive. So we know that we do, you know, our 3 hours of cultural competency every two years. And we know that that’s just not enough. We know that we’re struggling with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, all the things. And we don’t know how to do it in our sessions with our clients. We don’t know how to talk to our colleagues and coworkers about it. And we’re scared. We don’t want to get it wrong and we don’t want to hurt people. And we realized that we don’t know. So this is a place where we’re going to do a little bit of education. We’re going to do a whole lot of talking and a whole lot of community making. That’s really part of my big goal is that we do create a community of people who can really talk about hard topics with each other in a safe, nonjudgmental. All the things that we want to find place but really push each other like what’s okay and what’s not and be able to call each other on things that are hard in ways that feel gentle and kind. But we still have the hard conversations, so that’s what I’m hoping to create and I’m really excited about it. 

Linzy [00:26:36] I mean, it really does make you think about the statements you made as we’ve been talking today about like vulnerability and connection, it really fosters ways to be vulnerable, which sometimes means getting called in on shit, having things reflected back to you that maybe you don’t want to see, but doing that in community, which allows everybody – everybody’s doing that, right. And everybody is going to be connecting and supporting each other through this. Just learning. 

Dena [00:27:00] Yeah, yeah. Yep. That’s the goal. I’m super excited. 

Linzy [00:27:03] I’m so excited. I know. I, I feel like I’ve known about this program since it was a little seed. 

Dena [00:27:08] You did. 

Linzy [00:27:09] I’m excited to see it coming to fruition. So, Dena, for folks who are listening, they might be listening like, you know, soon with your first round, but they also might be listening in the future when you’re on subsequent rounds. So where’s the best place for them to follow you and hear about The Anti Oppressive Therapist when it opens next? 

Dena [00:27:25] Probably my website will be the easiest thing: DenaOmar.com. All the information for this round is there and I will keep it updated when I do subsequent rounds for the program and then when I expand, you’ll be able to find info there as things grow. 

Linzy [00:27:41] So, DenaOmar.com and we’ll put that in the show notes so it’s easy for folks to click over and get into your world. Thank you so much, Dena, for having this conversation today. It’s so lovely to have you on again and I’m so excited about your program and so excited for the folks who are going to get the privilege of learning from you. 

Dena [00:27:58] Thank you, Linzy. I really appreciate being here. 

Linzy [00:28:14] I so appreciated Dena’s vulnerability in sharing their experience with having their cancer diagnosis and what that forced them to do in terms of how they were managing money and thinking about money both in their business and in their marriage. And I just so appreciated their insights about connection and vulnerability and how perfection, as much as it makes us feel safe, and especially with numbers, it’s so easy to live in this space of like if I have control, if I understand the numbers, and if you’re someone who who leans this way with your anxiety towards money, you know exactly what I’m talking about of checking the numbers like Dena was talking about, rolling out of bed, checking the numbers, looking at your spreadsheet, checking your numbers again and again, making them line up, trying to be perfect. How that tightness actually blocks us from so many things, including connection and getting to share what’s really happening for us, or share the responsibility with the people in our lives and realize that we’re not actually alone and we don’t have to always do everything by ourselves. Even if financially, you have to make things work by yourself emotionally. You can invite people in to that space with you, and you don’t have to do the emotional work of money all by yourself. So, so appreciate Dena and everything that they brought the table to the table today. If you’re listening to this podcast, when it first comes out, I will say that you do actually have the chance to jump into Dena’s very first cohort of The Anti Oppressive Therapist, and I would definitely recommend that you check it out. The link is going to be in the show notes: DenaOmar.com. You can go take a look and have that opportunity to be in their beta course with them. It’s always such a rich experience being in somebody’s beta course, because they’re really building that course with you as they go. Obviously, they’re an expert and they know what they’re doing, but also you get to really be part of the creation of that course. It’s going to be built for you and with you. So check that out. And if you’re listening to this podcast a little later, you can still check them out and see when The Anti Oppressive Therapist will be offered next. If you are enjoying the podcast, check me out on Instagram. You can follow me there for free practical and emotional content about money and private practice at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, head over to Apple Podcasts and please leave me a review. I know you probably hear me say that every time if you listen to the very end of the podcast. But I really am asking you to do that because that really is the best way for other therapists who would benefit from these conversations about money to find me. Thanks for listening today. 

Linzy [00:00:04] There’s this idea of, like, making your life more compelling than work, right? So that your life is actually more interesting and richer and more fulfilling than the work that you’re doing. So for you to have a life that you really enjoy, what are some of the minimums? What are some of the boundaries that you would need to have in place? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practices and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today we have a coaching episode with Darya Zuychenko. Darya is actually a student at Money Skills For Therapists who has paused her time in the course. You’ll hear us refer to that in our conversation. She got a month in, life got a little bit too much to get the benefit of the course, so she’s kind of one month in to her time in Money Skills For Therapists and now, a year later, we’re doing this recording together. She is an acupuncturist, a massage therapist, and on the road to become an osteopath. And is a clinic owner in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. Today, we dig into that kind of classic question of work-life balance, getting into the nitty gritty of how to balance her clients and their specific needs, which can be around, you know, pain and injury and how she balances their needs for treatment with her own needs. But we also spend quite a bit of time exploring what her needs are. Something that we really got into in this conversation is not just kind of a straight, easy idea of work life balance, but starting to understand boundaries. What are her hard boundaries around things? Where does she have some flexibility? What are the things she’s absolutely not willing to compromise on, but also how to make life interesting and compelling enough that she doesn’t want to work. And that’s just something that I see can be a struggle for so many of us as therapists, practitioners, whether we’re manual practitioners or mental health practitioners, is we love our work and we love serving the people that we love. And we have a passion for the healing that we help people do. And it’s very easy for that to start to bleed into our life and take up our time and start to say yes to all sorts of folks. That means that we kind of spend our life working, which is easy to happen, and bend our boundaries a lot because it’s so compelling to work with folks. So we dig into, as well, how to make life more compelling than work so that you don’t just want to work all the time. So if you struggle with saying no to clients or finding balance, this is a great episode for you. Here’s my coaching session with Darya. Darya, welcome to the podcast. 

Darya [00:03:11] Hi, Linzy. Thank you so much for having me today. 

Linzy [00:03:13] So it is a super pleasure to talk with you again. We were just chatting off mic and saying how you started Money Skills For Therapists a year ago and you took a little pause and you’re about to jump back in, which is like so exciting because it’s been really exciting so far to support you in Money Skills For Therapists. And now we get to have this extra side conversation now for the podcast. 

Darya [00:03:33] Absolutely. Yes. And yeah. And it’s a perfect, perfect time. I just this morning basically finished the process that I took the hiatus for. Yeah. And I can actually dedicate the appropriate amount of time and mental energy to it. 

Linzy [00:03:47] Love it. Right thing at the right time. I’m a huge believer. So I’m glad you’re coming back at a good time and let’s start to dig into what you want support with today on our coaching podcast session. So what do you want to have more clarity on by the end of our conversation today? 

Darya [00:04:02] So I think there’s two big two questions that I’m working with right now, both with getting back into the course and as well as what to do with my general practice. And so they kind of work with each other and really the big questions are how to achieve a work life balance without really falling into one category or the other. So without sort of achieving that, ‘I’ll take a 3-day weekend’ all the time. And as well as feeling comfortable with the amount of money that comes in with those – of course – patient fluctuations. 

Linzy [00:04:35] Yes. Okay. 

Darya [00:04:37] Our jobs aren’t typically salary, but we can expect a certain amount of income. So how to work with those highs and lows. Oh, and the other question which is going to be how to deal with that kind of perfectionism, both working with things that you can control and kind of just accept the things that you can’t, and find comfort that eventually it’ll work out. 

Linzy [00:04:59] Yeah, and it sounds like these things might go together a little bit from what you’re saying, wanting to figure out maybe that perfect balance. So let’s start with that work life balance. That’s kind of like the phrase about it, right? Work life balance piece. So I guess my first question is, what are you noticing is happening with that now? Or if it’s not happening now, what do you worry is going to happen? Kind of what’s the problem for you at this moment? 

Darya [00:05:21] For sure. So I have recently chosen to take a very, very flexible schedule in day-to-day life. I noticed that at least at this point in my career having set time, say Monday mornings, wasn’t necessarily fulfilling all the gaps that I knew that other people needed. But I also didn’t want to take every single evening and work. So at the moment I guess am totally fluctuating. If someone needs an evening appointment and I already have someone in a slot and the evening’s already taken for work time, then I add them in there and that’s great, or not. So what I’m noticing happens is that I am noticing I’m building blocks of those times that already exist and then just expanding them to you know an amount of patients are not really comfortable treating in a day like that I give them as much as they can and then sometimes having that fluctuation of one today but nine tomorrow isn’t a great balance. 

Linzy [00:06:13] No. Okay. So yeah, so in that quest for flexibility for your clients, you’re actually ending up kind of packing some days and then other days are quiet. So you’re, you’re lacking kind of day to day balance, even in just your client load. 

Darya [00:06:23] Exactly. And with coming out of the pandemic, just finished from school and finally no longer paying tuition, all those things. I find it very hard for me to say no to that money that’s about to come in for that hour. And, you know, it’s a challenge to be like, no, no, I’ll set my own boundary for that. I’m going to try to see someone in the following week, whereas I know that I can do it. It’s just that, what’s healthy for me, and I think that’s the struggle that I’m finding. 

Linzy [00:06:49] Yes, because I mean, in terms of a starting point, it’s kind of like, in a way, if we started at the ideal and worked backwards. My question for you – and this is a gut question and I think for context, Darya, for folks listening, tell folks about the type of work that you do, because that’s also, I think, part of this equation. What is the type of work that you do? 

Darya [00:07:05] Absolutely. So right now, I work as a registered therapist, registered acupuncturist, and this morning I actually finished my case report thesis for osteopathy. So again, it’s a manual therapy-based thing. So it’s fairly physically demanding and I have to be very mentally, emotionally and physically present for people. 

Linzy [00:07:26] Yes. Okay, that’s important context because it’s, I mean, for for mental health therapists, we know what the limits are in terms of our like emotional limits of the day. You feel the difference in that first session when you’re like fresh ready to go. And that last one when you’re like, I’m not really – this is not the best me. And so you’re going to have versions of that too. But yours also involves your physical body and the physical effort. Okay. So I’m going to ask you a question that’s very much I want a gut answer from you, and that is, what is your ideal amount of clients to see in one day? 

Darya [00:07:52] Five. 

Linzy [00:07:52] Five is great. Okay. And why? How do you know five is great? 

Darya [00:07:55] Because I know that when I have four, I’m like, that was great, but it feels like an easier day. 

Linzy [00:08:00] That’s a light day? Okay. 

Darya [00:08:02] Yep. And I definitely know that six, with the cleaning breaks with of course cleaning protocols, all those things with that half an hour gap of charting and everything else. Six people in a day really works out to being about between 8 to 9 hours. I know that that’s quite a bit. 

Linzy [00:08:16] That’s a long day. 

Darya [00:08:16] And so I think five was tends to be a sweet spot.  

Linzy [00:08:20] So five is your sweet spot and then what is your ideal amount of clients in a week? 

Darya [00:08:25] Probably between 20 and 25. 

Linzy [00:08:27] So 20 to 25. So I mean, just very quickly, if we mapped that out, you know, 20 to 25, that would be 4 to 5 days of like five client days. 

Darya [00:08:36] Yes. 

Linzy [00:08:37] Would kind of be like that ideal scenario if everybody lines up well. Okay. Okay. And in terms of the finances, from what you know of your financial picture. Financially, is that a sweet spot for you or are you able to get it by on a little bit less? Do you need a little bit more? 

Darya [00:08:53] In a perfect world, where all bills are covered for both myself, all bills are covered for the clinic, there’s ability to save any kind of investments, whether I want the machine to perform or to hire on someone to do some work, or whatever. Ideally, probably I would say 30. But I also think, if I’m being really honest, I think that the 30 is more of not to hit rough boundaries. And I think that 30 is like a very comfortable surplus versus I think it’s doable at 25, just a little bit more tension. 

Linzy [00:09:23] Right. Okay. So 30 would give you lots, but 25 would probably give you enough. 

Darya [00:09:26] Yes. 

Linzy [00:09:27] Yes. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, the number 25 has now come up twice. So that seems to be like a good indicator of it’s within your range of your sweet spot. It’s kind of the outer edge of your treatment sweet spot. And financially it also ticks a box in terms of being probably enough for a given week. So that 25, Darya, I’m curious right now, how close are you to hitting that 25 a week, even though people are distributed differently? How close are you to that? 

Darya [00:09:51] I’m actually I’m pretty good. I’m about 20 to 25, actually.  

Linzy [00:09:58] Great. Okay. So it’s not that you don’t have enough folks to fill those spots, maybe, but you’re moving them around. 

Darya [00:10:04] Yes. 

Linzy [00:10:06] Okay. Yes. Okay. 

Darya [00:10:08] If I’ve got a whole family of four people that just dropped off, that I’m not going to see for few weeks. 

Linzy [00:10:12] Yes. 

Darya [00:10:13] They’re gone for a little while. 

Linzy [00:10:15] You mean because they have COVID. 

Darya [00:10:16] Yes. Exactly.

[00:10:16] Yes. We’re at that phase of the pandemic where everybody’s just getting it now. Okay. So, yeah. And this is what I’m hearing and curious about is like it seems like there’s a bit of scarcity fear, right. Which is leading you to be very flexible with your schedule where you’re like, I’ll just stack them in after that other person who’s already kind of later in the day and all. So you’re really like piling folks in where you can fit them into your schedule. Tell me more about the thoughts that come up when you think about just having spots and saying to folks, you know, I don’t I have this Monday morning spot or we’re looking at like next Thursday. 

Darya [00:10:47] It definitely brings up a fear of like, if they can’t wait until next Thursday, then, you know, will they find someone else? Will they try to book in to different therapists? And if that brings them relief, that’s awesome, but also, I think part of the fear as well is that if that therapy isn’t what they need and now they’ve potentially gone and started looking for treatment, that may not be necessarily what they’re expecting or what they’re hoping and then potentially having to address that the next time that they come in. Yeah, I think that’s a that’s an issue. 

Linzy [00:11:15] And tell me, why is that an issue? Like, what does that mean if they do see someone else and it’s not the right course of treatment? 

Darya [00:11:19] I think particularly with people that have really, really chronic pain or really chronic conditions, where we sort of manage it as much as we can in day to day life rather than the acute, you know, sprained ankle kind of thing. Often people, again, coming out of the pandemic with different mental health concerns if they’re sort of butting up against not having hope for treatment or if – depending on the therapist – if they’re not listened to very, very well, and not really taken in as the individual coming with the problem, rather than just the problem itself. Yeah. I just worry about them not having a great, healthy experience, especially if they reach out to me and I sort of put my needs at that moment before theirs. 

Linzy [00:11:58] So I’m hearing, you know, like a lot of care for the folks that you support and a lot of maybe like a sense of responsibility of making sure that they have the right type of treatment, that, you know, you’re providing them available when they need it and protecting them from maybe having a bad experience somewhere else. 

Darya [00:12:13] Totally. Or referring them to specific people that I have seen or I have experienced that I know that they’re great and other people have, you know, resonated with that experience and say, yes, this was what I was expecting. This was – this helped or it didn’t, but for expected reasons, rather than like, you know, coming in and not being heard, not being seen or being cared for. 

Linzy [00:12:34] Right. Okay. Okay. So that kind of sense of responsibility for your clients, that care that you have, that like ‘want to make sure their needs are met’, I’m hearing like that’s kind of over here, and that seems like that’s part of the driving force of wanting to make sure that you get them in. Right, because you want to make sure that they’re getting the treatment they need. On the other side is kind of the situation you’re ending up in, which is having lots of folks piled into a day. So tell me about that side of it. What’s it like for you if you do treat nine folks in a day? 

Darya [00:13:00] It’s a funny balance at that moment because when I look at it in the morning, like, it feels very overwhelming, like prep for like a marathon day. Right. You bring your snacks. You bring your-

Linzy [00:13:12] Yes. 

Darya [00:13:12] You make sure that there’s coffee somewhere in the building. But it’s also one of those things when you’re like really on a roll, like, it’s okay. Like you’re just going from one thing to another and it feels like you’re really in the zone, which is good. 

Linzy [00:13:25] Totally. 

Darya [00:13:26] It’s not really being in that day that’s the challenge. I think it’s the desire of, will I have enough energy for that day? You know, like if it’s on a Monday and I’m looking at my schedule and I see Thursday is absolutely slammed, it’s kind of that lead up anxiety of, ‘it’s a big day’, will I have a good sleep the day before?

Darya [00:13:42] Yeah. 

Darya [00:13:43] Are the people that are coming in coming in with things that I’m already expecting to treat them with? Like, you know, you have the people that come in for typically a standard issue that you’re working with and you’re not really ready for a curveball to be thrown. So I feel like it’s also an issue of what to expect in that day and that anxiety that, if something goes totally off the rails, how is the rest of the day? 

Linzy [00:14:04] Yeah, because that day is kind of like an event. 

Linzy [00:14:06] Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. 

Linzy [00:14:10] So, I mean, with that, I guess one question is kind of like, what is the cost of that event to you? Like, are you able to do that more than once a week? Is once a week okay? Like what happens? How are you after that kind of day? 

Darya [00:14:25] I feel like I recover pretty well? Like I don’t feel like the next day is really affected. Like, as you know, I have good food in the evening. I have a good sleep. I do some wind down stuff like that. I think it’s more – and this is I feel quite unrelated to work actually, I feel like it’s my own life aspect of this of, you know, it’s becoming slightly nicer weather. I’ve just come out of this this period of time of just being in school for like ten years and writing this thing and all that stuff where I’m finally beginning to understand the freedom of being an adult. 

Linzy [00:14:56] Yes. No longer a student. That’s nice. 

Darya [00:14:59] Exactly. Yes. Yes. The freedom of just working rather than being in school and everything else. And I think those days, while they’re great and and I do feel awesome that I was able to help some people or at least put them on the right track for something else. Those are days that feel like they’re not mine. Like I don’t feel like I’m getting anything done for me in that. And so it gives me a bit of stress that the following day, that I have to accomplish the mandatory adult things, right? Whether it’s dishes or laundry or whatever, as well as self-care things if I want to read or draw or write. 

Linzy [00:15:32] Yeah, because it almost seems like that day, and I don’t know if this language will resonate with you, but it’s kind of like you didn’t exist in your own life that day. 

Darya [00:15:38] That’s exactly it. Yes. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:15:40] And so with that, like, I mean, there’s a couple of ways that we can think about this. We can construct your ideal. Right, and think about like, what would it take for you to like hold to your ideal? And how do you also work in things like emergency spots for folks who might be in pain? That’s always an option. So we’ll come to that in a second. But the other thing that I think about is understanding kind of like your flexible boundaries versus your hard boundaries. Like where can you flex for clients? Because maybe they are really in pain and you do need to be fit in. And I had a discussion with my own osteopath about this, actually talking about business and osteopathy. And like when you have that person who’s like your star client who also send you all their friends, and they’re in terrible pain. You say yes to them, you make it work. You show up on Saturday morning, right? Like it’s understanding that this is a relationship. And also as a business, you want to be taking really good care of the folks who are your kind of star clients, but at the same time, saying like, where’s your hard stop? Where you’re like, okay, now I’m costing myself something that I’m not willing to give up. 

Darya [00:16:39] That’s actually a really great point. Yeah. And I don’t think I possibly just aware enough of where that actual effect for for me. 

Linzy [00:16:49] Yeah. And that’s something that I encourage you to start to be curious about. Curiosity is like my one of my things. Is starting to just be curious and notice like, okay, I had one nine-client day this week and I didn’t feel like I exist in my own life. And it was kind of like an event, but it also felt good in its own way. And then just start to notice like, how did I feel the next day? How did I feel the day after that? Would I be able to do that again in the same week, or is that a boundary? Is that like something that I can do one day a week while in practice building? I’ll push myself, but no more than that, right? Starting to be curious about like where those hard lines are, where it’s like, okay, I might overextend myself one day a week, but that’s it. Right. And I’m curious, as you’re hearing me talk about it, do you have any kind of numbers or conditions rise up that, you know, is like a hard boundary? Where it’s like no more than X? 

Darya [00:17:37] Yes, I would definitely say – it’s funny, actually, what comes up is that it’s a boundary of the ratio of acupuncture and/or osteo style treatments that I do. 

Linzy [00:17:49] That make sense. 

Darya [00:17:51] Like possible Swedish massage that I would do. 

Linzy [00:17:54] Yes. 

Darya [00:17:55] I know that a day of like 8 pure massage therapy treatments in a row, I don’t think is very great for my hands, for long term or even for just a day. 

Linzy [00:18:04] I bet not. Yeah. 

Darya [00:18:05] I think I can have a really good balance. I feel comfortable that if I had an acupuncture, an osteo, and a massage, and then a massage, and then a couple acupunctures, like it would give me enough break in the day and variety for my brain not to kind of get into just to look at everyone’s diaphragm, for example, whether or not that’s what they’re coming in for, but not to get biased, I find it and just kind of go with the thing that’s been the theme of the day. 

Linzy [00:18:29] Okay. So it sounds like some variety. 

Darya [00:18:32] Yes. Variety is good. 

Linzy [00:18:33] Okay. And so that’s something that I would encourage you to sit down and almost write out for yourself. When I say almost write out, I mean actually. Write. In a day, what is your limit of, like Swedish style massage that you do? You know, how many of those are you willing to do a day before it’s like, nope, this is not worth it for my hands. This is not going to be sustainable for my career. This is where I draw the line. What is kind of an ideal mix that you’re trying to accomplish that you can keep in mind as you’re scheduling folks in, to construct days that meet your needs to as you go. 

Darya [00:19:04] Right. 

Linzy [00:19:04] And then the other idea that we had just talked about for a second here is this idea of emergency spots. Do you have any system like that right now in your practice? 

Darya [00:19:13] That’s the day of the nine. 

Linzy [00:19:19] That’s a long emergency. 

Darya [00:19:20] Yes. That was the original day of like seven. And then the one person who’s like trying to go into labor can you induce me? Sure I can, come in at nine. No big deal. And then the person who’s like, I need to drive wherever and I can’t move my neck. 7:30 it is. And that’s how you end up with a big day. So I think it’s not a great strategy. Something that I did think of when you said that about the boundary, I also wonder – when we started this conversation, it was about how many are comfortable in a week – and I think maybe having a boundary for a week. 

Linzy [00:19:50] Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Darya [00:19:51] Is also helpful idea. Not to freak out if I only see two people on Monday and not to be concerned that that’s going to be the rest of the week with that variety and flexibility. If I am within a comfortable zone, I think of meeting my weekly goal, I think I might be a little bit more comfortable as well, saying like, how acute is this? Is this something that has to be dealt with today? Can I maybe talk to someone home care, something about it, whether it’s a stretch, whether it’s icing, whether it’s a certain technique that they can do at home. Kind of let them chill out for a couple of days. So maybe even having it like a weekly goal. 

Linzy [00:20:26] Yeah. Because within a week, it can kind of balance itself out if you have some quieter days, like if you’re a busy day at the beginning, but some quieter days later, that kind of balances out within the time frame for you. 

Darya [00:20:36] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:38] And then for the idea of like emergency sessions that are actually planned into your week, not just piled into a given day, if that is something that you think could be helpful. What days do you think that those like emergency spots would make sense to put on, just knowing your clients and what tends to happen? 

Darya [00:20:55] I think if it’s Friday night or Monday nights, it’s definitely an evening slot because, as I’m sure you know, the majority of people are 9 to 5 people. Right. So and a lot of them have flexibility in the evenings rather than two o’clock in the afternoon. I guess the flipside of that, too, is that if it is an emergency thing, maybe prior to –

Linzy [00:21:13] That, that’s when I was just going to say. Is it really an emergency? If they could work all day and then see you at night? And that can be kind of the spirit of the spot, right? Is that it’s like for folks who really do need it and those folks will make it work to come in at 1:00 if they’re in pain. I almost put my back out a few weeks ago and I knew what was happening because it’s happened four years ago. But now I have a toddler and I can’t afford to lie in bed crying for several days anymore. I don’t have time for that shit. So as soon as I felt it, of course, I just got in the car because I’m 38 years old. And that’s what happens when you’re 38. 

Darya [00:21:46] Yeah. You sneeze the wrong way and it’s over. 

Linzy [00:21:48] Yes, that’s it. I knew that it was coming. And so we contacted my old osteopath who happened through a pure miracle to have a spot that day and I will tell you, I would have canceled anything to show up for that appointment because that’s a real emergency. Right. And so something that I would encourage you to just be aware of is making sure that your clients are taking their concerns as seriously as you are. And like that you’re not putting yourself out if they’re not willing to put themselves out in some way. Right. There’s this thing in mental health therapy we talk about, like, don’t work harder than your clients. 

Darya [00:22:21] Oh, that’s brilliant. 

Linzy [00:22:22] Yeah. So, you know. If you want to make sure that you’re not overspending yourself, making sure that they’re also being flexible and respecting your time and boundaries so you can meet in the middle and you can give them the help that they need, but you’re not putting yourself out while they’re just kind of having a normal day. 

Darya [00:22:39] That makes perfect sense actually. And you’re totally right. Like I definitely in the past, if I put something wrong, particularly where I so much use my body in my job, right? I’ve definitely come to people and said like we’ll see any like my handful, my team of practitioners that I see that like keep me going. I definitely have re-scheduled people for me to be able to, you know, to see care so that my cup is filled so I can help them. 

Linzy [00:23:02] We prioritize things. If it’s really a priority, we make it happen. 

Darya [00:23:05] Yes, absolutely. I think there’s a disconnect in my head of what my hands or my body needs versus like with these things needs. 

Linzy [00:23:12] Yes. Yes. So the other piece of this equation then, is the life part of work life balance. So that’s something I’d also encourage you to start to be curious about is like, what is your minimum? You’re like, no less than this for your life. What do you need to see in your life, Darya, to like enjoy yourself, feel fulfilled, have meaning. There’s this idea of, like, making your life more compelling than work, right? So that your life is actually more interesting and richer and more fulfilling than the work that you’re doing. So for you to have a life that you really enjoy, what are some of the minimums? What are some of the boundaries that you would need to have in place? 

Darya [00:23:51] More time for myself, whatever that looks like. Right. Like whether it’s a delightful bath, whether it’s touching the piano that I haven’t touched in a very long time. Any of those things. Relationships with people are not quite as one-sided. And of course, like as I’m sure it’s probably the same in your work where it’s very one sided, where you kind of it’s all about in that whatever type of work you have. 

Linzy [00:24:15] That’s what you’re there for. 

Darya [00:24:16] Which I’m beyond thrilled to do. But I think it’s also important in my life to have relationships, whether it’s friends or other relationships, to have it be really dual, rather than me sort of having to naturally stay in work state. Yes. Yeah. So I think it’s that. I think it’s freedom and control for like, what I want to do in that moment, like my work is work. We don’t all want to be at work at 9:00 on Monday morning, but we’re going to be because we have to. But I think it’s the difference of if I want to spend the weekend doing my own thing, I can do that. Or if I have that desire and flexibility to do something with somebody else or go on a mini trip or do whatever, I have that control, that kind of ‘what I want to do is my my driving force’ rather than because someone’s available to do it. Similarly to work. If someone’s available to come in at 1:00, they’re going to. Versus what I want to do.  

Linzy [00:25:06] So it sounds like really consciously putting the things into your life that you enjoy, making sure you’re doing them, even if somebody else doesn’t happen to be available, seeking those balanced relationships as well, like having more of those dual interactions. And what I would encourage you to think about, and maybe as you’re doing your boundary setting, writing that out for your practice, then think about the other side. So like what is maybe your minimum amount of evenings you want to be home a week? If time of day is important to you or minimum amount of mornings that you start late, like we all have kind of like our sweet spots where we’re like, Oh, it’s nice to be home in the morning, it’s nice to be home in the evening. It’s nice to go out, go for lunch, or do yoga. How about a break in the middle of the day, whatever that looks like for you? What are your minimums around that kind of self-care? But then also, what are the components you want to add into your life so that you also have a reason to want to leave work? 

Darya [00:25:51] Yes. 

Linzy [00:25:52] Right. So you’re like, oh, well, Tuesday night I could squish in is client who’s really not actually being super flexible and I could fit them in at 7 p.m. But I don’t really want to because I’m actually going to see this like great concert with a friend and like, I’ve been looking forward to it for two weeks. Right. And so thinking about also like, what are the things you add into your life to make it exciting and to make you want to stop working and go and just be a human who’s enjoying her adulthood and not being a student? 

Darya [00:26:16] Yes, absolutely. Actually, that brought up a wonderful point. If I have something pre committed, I won’t cancel unless I’m in the hospital. So last week was a very particularly odd week because all of the concerts in town happened to happen that I had tickets for for like three years. All of them were like Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday, whatever. And because they were already there, that was a non-flexible boundary for me. Right? I wasn’t going to cancel a friend up who I was going to go to a concert with who was relying on me for transport or whatever. But I think if I was choosing to like go upstairs and watch Suits all day long, I feel like I would have put people in. I think if I had an outside commitment, I would be more likely to to hold up that boundary like I think is really important to me. 

Linzy [00:27:02] Yeah. And that’s good to know about yourself. Like, you’re probably more externally motivated if, if you told somebody you’re going to show up, then you’re going to show up for that. Whereas like it sounds like for you, maybe just like time by yourself is not going to be as compelling. 

Darya [00:27:13] Yes. Yeah. And I think it’s because I’m more accountable to other people than I would be for myself. Like the worst thing that happens if I, for me, right now, what I’m trying to work on is that for right now, if I don’t get my evening time, self time, self-care or whatever and I just like go to bed early, I went to work early and rested it didn’t fill my soul, but like it was fine. I think I’m trying to create a harder boundary for for me to follow, even if someone’s there or not. 

Linzy [00:27:39] Yeah. And some of that might be, you know, figure out ways that commitments to yourself, that either it’s something that you just like so much, you don’t want to deprive yourself of it. Or there’s maybe some sort of structure that’s still individual and you’d have to think about what that looks like for you. But yeah, also learning how to show up for yourself is what I’m hearing would be a nice priority as well. 

Linzy [00:27:56] Yes, absolutely. 

Linzy [00:27:57] Then the very last piece, we don’t have too much time left together, but I just want to name the perfectionism about this. I’m curious, how can you stay out of perfectionism when it comes to your schedule and your boundaries and let yourself kind of figure it out as you go. 

Linzy [00:28:12] I feel comfortable with very big blocks of time for me. If I have an evening off at the moment, that means that like 430, I’m done. Therefore, 5pm and on is completely and truly my time and generally, in like if it’s 5pm and my time, I feel like I’m like, yeah, I can go to the movies, I have time for this or I can take a nap and then do something else versus if I’m done at like 6:30 or 7 in the evening, then 2 hours I will accomplish nothing and yet also not doing anything for me either. And I feel like that’s where that perfectionism line comes in, where I’m, I’m already working. I’ll just put in another patient. 

Linzy [00:28:48] Right. I see. Because that time is not going to be productive or worthwhile. So you might as well do something. 

Darya [00:28:55] For sure. Yeah. Like if I have someone at, like, 10:30 in the morning, I’m like, I don’t really have a lot of time to do anything in my day, versus if I start my day at 3, I’m like Oooh I’ve got 6 hours. I can go to the gym and do laundry. That’s my perfectionism issue. 

Linzy [00:29:09] Yeah, it sounds so it sounds almost like a little bit like perfectionism around productivity and about what is like a useful amount of time. Right. Like 6 hours is useful. You can get a lot done in 6 hours, but like an hour and a half, it’s like, eh, might as well work. 

Darya [00:29:23] Yes, that’s exactly. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:29:25] So that would be another thing to start to think about is how else can you think about your time? Is your time really just about accomplishing things now? 

Darya [00:29:37] It shouldn’t be like when you said that, I was like, I can make a list of like five minute tasks that I can accomplish. That’s not it. 

Linzy [00:29:44] Yeah, that’s. That’s not it. That’s not it. So it’s just something to kind of notice and notice when it pops up. Because in some ways what I’m hearing is you are prioritizing being useful, right? In this case, it’s easier to be useful to somebody else if they’re like, Oh, can you squeeze me in at 930 and you already have a 1030? You’re like, Yeah, sure, I could. I could squeeze you in for an appointment because that’s useful and I’m not going to use that time. How else you can think about the value of time besides being useful or productive? 

Darya [00:30:09] Anything for me, whether it’s breath, whether it’s like literally anything, whether it’s exercise, meditation, oh my god – enjoying the sun – we haven’t had the sun in like a week here. 

Linzy [00:30:18] The sun is great, eh? Darya and I are both Canadian, by the way, we live way too far north. It’s not great. 

Darya [00:30:24] Yeah, no, it’s just rain all of the time here. Rain and wind. Yeah, things for I mean, as I said earlier, like enjoyment of life, like enjoyment of just being an adult. And I love the work piece to just be a third of my life. Rather than the whole thing and then bedtime. 

Linzy [00:30:41] Yeah. So in a sense that’s kind of at least an energetic ratio to be aiming for is like work is a third of your life, which notably is not even half. It’s like you want work to be less than kind of half of how you think about or experience yourself. So then it’s starting to dig into these other ways of how how to make life rich. What do you want to be adding in? What starts to build out the rest of your life so that you’re not tempted to creep up that third of work to start take over the rest of your your time and your energy? 

Darya [00:31:07] Yeah, that’s exactly it. Yeah. I think part of it too. Once you said that, it occurred to me that if my chunk of time that’s my chunk of time that I don’t think is equal to potentially helping someone else or another person. I think I will value that more than currently what is my me-time. Or that third or two thirds actually of what I want. 

Linzy [00:31:32] Right. Yeah. And you’ll value it more because if like how you’re relating to it or treating it, is that what you mean?

Darya [00:31:37] Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:31:38] Yes. Darya, coming to the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Darya [00:31:43] A lot, actually. I know you’ve given me a lot of really good examples and tools of how to actually set my boundary, like enforcing will be a whole separate situation, but how to actually set them both with being flexible day to day, and also having a broader picture of not being stressed out one day or the other. And that really I don’t – you know how like when you’re a kid and you think your school teacher only exists at school and you see them at the grocery store? 

Linzy [00:32:11] Right? 

Darya [00:32:11] It occurred to me that I need to start thinking of my own self as existing outside of the clinic, versus the time that I spend actually in it. 

Linzy [00:32:19] Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 

Darya [00:32:22] Thank you so much for helping me. I’m actually so excited to implement these things. 

Linzy [00:32:25] Awesome. 

Linzy [00:32:39] In my conversation with Darya, it stuck out to me when she stopped and reflected on how she didn’t necessarily know exactly what some of her boundaries are. So if you’re finding yourself in a similar situation to Darya and you’re finding that you’re ending up working longer days than you want or seeing more clients than you want to. A great starting point is just stopping to ask yourself, What are my limits? You know, we talk in this episode about the kind of hard limits versus where there’s some flexibility or ideal kind of mixes that you want to see. But just start to really start with you and your needs. What is your maximum for the week? What is your ideal amount? What is your sweet spot amount where you see all your clients, you finish your day, you feel like that was a good full day – as Darya said, it wasn’t a light day – you know, she said four felt light, five felt like a full day. That’s her number. But you still have energy to go and have a life. So that’s part of it, is like setting those boundaries. But then this other piece that we talked about I think is actually equally as important, which is we need to have a reason to want to leave work. Right. So adding things into your life that are interesting, that add texture, whether you’re into art or music or sports or movies. Right. Or having dinner with friends, going out to a café. Like what are the things that, once you have that on your calendar, you are in no way going to compromise that and sacrifice that for a client because that is your life and that is what makes life rich and meaningful. And you are going to naturally prioritize that because that is what you love. Adding more of those things into our life makes it much more natural to set boundaries because we actually want to leave work because we have something that we want to do. So that’s something that I find can be very helpful, is not just like where we say no, but what are we saying yes to that makes life enjoyable and makes us want to stop working. It’s also very easy to want to override our boundaries for the sake of our clients. But of course, in the air and my conversation with Darya is the fact that it does make the work unsustainable. You know, in this case, because she’s doing largely manual practices, there’s a physical limit there, you know, but if you’re also doing mental health therapy, there’s a limit there as well. And when we override that, we’re actually putting the long term ability of us to do this work at risk. And as much as we think that we’re doing folks favors in the short term, of course, in the long term, we’re starting to deplete our ability to be as effective as we want to be. And so many folks who push themselves for too long end up having to take time off or leave the profession. So being clear with yourself about where your boundaries are from the beginning just helps you set yourself up to stay in your career and enjoy it for a good long time. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts & Bolts. I share practical and emotional private practice finance content on there all the time. And of course, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please head over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for therapists and practitioners to find me. Thanks for listening. 

MereAnn [00:00:03] And if I think, too, that it’s not just me on this ship, that it’s also my clients and my future clients, like that is part of the mindset shift that helps me find the motivation and a little bit of a sense of urgency. Not so much that I overwhelm myself, but a little bit is great for me. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question, How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode of Money Skills For Therapists podcast is a coaching episode and this is the first coaching episode I’m actually recording in season three and it feels so good to be back into doing these coaching episodes again for the podcast. Our guest today is MereAnn Reid. MereAnn is a play therapist and she’s a former teacher and she’s also the founder of Raising Family Resilience, which is a seven week online parent group. She’s written a book, The Embodied Brain and Santry Therapy Stories of Healing and Transformation, and she regularly has workshops on regulation and attachment. She collaborates with a limited number of parents for private coaching and adoption support, and she has a passion for supporting therapists and healers who are also parents. So MereAnn, in the time that I’ve known her, when we first worked together back in 2018, which we refer to a little bit at the start of our call today, she was a private solo therapist. I remember she touched base with me at one point along the way to say that thanks to the work that she’d done in Money Skills, she had saved up a nest egg and was able to start a play therapy center. And then in the pandemic, she let me know that she really leaned in and created this coaching practice. Our call today focused on how to manage your business finances when things have become more complex. MereAnn no longer has one business. She actually has a therapy business and she has a coaching business that has a couple of different offers. And she was finding herself again, falling into this fogginess and avoidance around money. That is kind of where she had been with her private practice finances, was coming up again at this new level, now that she has so much more complexity and so many more numbers to understand and try to manage. This is a great episode for you, if you’re thinking about branching out from therapy or your main health practice that you have, into things like coaching or courses or other offers, and you want to make sure that you maintain clarity and actually can understand your numbers even as things get more complicated, that’s exactly what MereAnn and I dig into today. Enjoy. All right, MereAnn, welcome to the podcast. 

MereAnn [00:03:08] Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. 

Linzy [00:03:10] I’m excited to have you. So, MereAnn, we worked together – you were in Money Skills For Therapists a few years ago now, we were just talking about this off mic, so 2018. So we’re going back like almost four years at this point. And so since you’ve been in Money Skills For Therapists, I think there’s been some developments in your business which are really exciting, which I know are related to what you want to talk about today. 

MereAnn [00:03:31] Right. Yeah. Things have been growing. 

Linzy [00:03:33] Yeah, in exciting ways. So I’m excited to learn more about that too, as we talk through today. So coming onto the podcast today, MereAnn, what do you want to get some support with? What can I help you with on our call? 

MereAnn [00:03:45] So since we met four years ago, I have built a second business and it’s related to my therapy practice in that that was the jumping off point. But essentially, I have now an Umbrella LLC with two DBAs under that. So I have one business, which is my counseling practice, and that is continuing to go well and I’ve seen a sustained income increase there. So that’s one big change and it’s almost double there. And then at the same time, when everybody went online with the pandemic, that turned into a separate parent coaching practice for me. And that is a new income stream that has two parts. One is one on one parent coaching, where I’m meeting with them for a short series of meetings. And then the second one is a six week group and I’m also teaching workshops. So this second coaching practice is really what I’m leaning into now and I’ve seen good income boost, but I don’t have the systems to track everything as well as I would like to. 

Linzy [00:05:07] Yes, OK. 

MereAnn [00:05:07] And you know, this is familiar because it’s what brought me to Money Skills For Therapists in the first place. So I recognize this habit of mine. And part of what’s tripping me up this time is, number one, I didn’t expect the growth to happen so quickly, so there’s just more to track than I was anticipating. And secondly, I had figured out the system so well, I’d gotten my counseling practice to a point where my softwares and my electronic health records were doing a lot of the money minding and reporting what I needed and I got that really streamlined. So I know what’s happening in my counseling practice. 

Linzy [00:05:47] Yes. 

MereAnn [00:05:48] I’m starting to recognize this feeling of bobbing up and down in the water with my coaching practice process, where sometimes I can see above. And then other times, it just kind of goes over my head. 

Linzy [00:05:59] Yes. You’re you’re under water again, yeah. 

MereAnn [00:06:01] As soon as I have a few minutes, I’m going to sort out this new business. And I’m now getting help from a tax consultant because I am filing as an S corp. So that’s not something I’m trying to wrestle on my own. I have a pro to do that part for me. 

Linzy [00:06:17] Yes, great. Perfect. 

MereAnn [00:06:19] But record keeping is even more important because I’m – the LLC is new and the S corp filing is new. 

Linzy [00:06:25] Yes. Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like you honed in your system and you got your system working for your private practice, which was kind of like a solo practice. But now you have this new, more complex business in addition to your solo practice. But you haven’t figured out your systems around just yet. 

MereAnn [00:06:41] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:06:42] And then I’m hearing that there’s an old habit that’s emerging at a new level. And this is what I noticed MereAnn like, I see it in myself, I see it in other therapists. As you expand, it’s like old things show up in new ways when we get to kind of new levels. Right. It’s something that we kind of, sounds like you overcame the avoidance when you figured out that solo system. But now at this new, more complex level, the avoidance is back. Which also makes sense because I’m sure you have a lot of other things going on that need your attention. 

MereAnn [00:07:05] And that idea of like, the pride I feel and like, wow, I’m an entrepreneur twice over, is so exciting. 

Linzy [00:07:12] Yes. 

MereAnn [00:07:13] And what taps me on the shoulder is I have an old story, that I don’t understand money talk. 

Linzy [00:07:19] Okay. 

MereAnn [00:07:19] And so that’s one of my barriers. 

Linzy [00:07:21] Yeah. So that’s coming back. Did that quiet down for a little bit when you did have your systems working or is that still kind of been around? 

MereAnn [00:07:28] It did. It did quiet down because when I, one specific example is when I automated credit card payments, basically when I had client credit cards on file, that tightened up so many things, that tightened up my cancelation policy. It tightened up, you know, any kind of back and forth communication or, you know, needing payments updated, like it just streamlined so much of the income side of things that then the reporting was really clean because I had everybody on the same system. 

Linzy [00:07:58] Yes. 

MereAnn [00:07:59] In this new setup, I have people coming in from lots of different places. They’re not all entering at the same kind of portal to work with me. I’m having to sort of screen when I get an inquiry. Are they counseling? Are they coaching? Okay. And what does that mean about what forms they get and what fee they’re at? And I’m kind of holding it in my head. 

Linzy [00:08:23] Right. Okay. Yes. Yes. Well, yeah, you’ve got two distinct businesses that need their own systems and their own paperwork and everything running at the same time. Okay. So starting with the practical, with your private practice. What system are you using to track, like your expenses and putting all the information together? What do you do in your private practice for that? 

MereAnn [00:08:43] Until just recently, I was doing QuickBooks and I changed accountants and the new accountant said, I don’t need QuickBooks. That’s too complicated for the kind of reporting that I need. You don’t need to be paying that much every month and I was glad to let the expense go. So I recently signed up for Wave and am switching my private practice finances over to Wave, from QuickBooks. So it’s in transition, but I have a handle on it. Right, because we just filed taxes. So I’m up to date. 

Linzy [00:09:12] Yes, and Wave is another accounting software. It’s a free accounting software, but it still is full suite accounting, a real accounting software where it’s going to give your accountant like double entry bookkeeping is what they call it on the back. Like it’s still going to give them a lot of information. But I’m hearing that they coach you to simplify, which is nice. That’s not usually what we hear from accountants. They don’t usually tell us to simplify, they usually tell us the other way. So I’m glad that you’ve got that support. So you’ve got wave then as your system and then in terms of bank accounts, do you have these two businesses distinct? Are they in the same bank account? What’s happening there? 

MereAnn [00:09:44] I have three bank accounts. The LLC has its own bank account and then the counseling practice has one and the coaching practice has one. And I’m doing coaching, consulting, speaking all with that coaching practice. And just every month I go in at the, you know, the 10th of the month and I transfer operating expenses from each of my businesses into the LLC. So I’m only spending out of the LLC. 

Linzy [00:10:11] Oh, Interesting. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. So you’re using that again as kind of your umbrella bank account, just like it’s your umbrella entity. It’s your umbrella bank account. Great. Okay, so that’s nice and simple, sending money up there. And then so you do have these two distinct, three distinct bank accounts already to where you’re receiving money and then the one that you’re paying your expenses out of. 

MereAnn [00:10:31] Yes. 

Linzy [00:10:31] Okay. Well, that’s I mean, that’s a really great start. It’s a very good start because you already have separation and clarity between these businesses and you already have even a system of simplifying the payments that you’re making out of the LLC. So that’s beautiful. So it sounds like the clarity is needed then more around like the tracking and actually understanding what’s happening with those numbers. 

MereAnn [00:10:50] Right. I can’t at a glance tell what is my most profitable service in my coaching practice right now. 

Linzy [00:10:57] Okay. And then do you also have anywhere that your expenses are being tracked for that coaching service? 

MereAnn [00:11:04] I do my online banking for each of those three accounts, and right now I just go in monthly and reconcile each account. So that’s where I’m tracking them, but I don’t have a budget from coaching practice. 

Linzy [00:11:16] Yeah. And you’re not ever seeing the income coming in and the money going out in the same place to help you understand the cash flow and like how things are working. Okay. 

MereAnn [00:11:23] That’s right. 

Linzy [00:11:25] So, I mean, I think that would be the first piece to think about plugging in, right. Is like you already have it in your private practice. You had it in QuickBooks, but now you’re transitioning to Wave. So I know there’s a transition period there, but it sounds like that’s a normal process. And when you land at Wave, you know, you should have that information on your solo practice. And the first thing that I would think about is, is there any reason not to use Wave for your coaching practice as well? Do you have any objection to using Wave? 

MereAnn [00:11:50] I think that does help me simplify. I think I am just starting with Wave. And so I’m just learning it and it makes sense to me that I would take all three of my accounts to Wave. And so I’m glad we’re having this conversation now because what I’m not totally clear on is, does Wave accomplish that goal of helping me see the cash flow for each of them? 

Linzy [00:12:16] Yes. And what Wave will show you – and I’m not a wave expert. So if they do have like super cool reports and stuff, I’m not sure about them. But with general accounting software, what it can show you is what’s called a profit and loss, which is money coming in, money going out. Right. And so if you start to get your coaching business information into Wave, you’re going to be able to run reports and start to see, okay, I brought in this much in May through my coaching groups, I brought this much through one on one. Because even that together is going to start to give you information, right? Like as you categorize that money coming in, you’re going to start to see, okay, this month I made a $1,300 in groups and I made about the same on one on ones. And then you can start to balance out even to the questions of like, how much energy does it take you to do one on ones versus group? Like you’re you’re going to start to have that information on the top. But then what I would encourage you to look at in Wave, is how can you then also think about your expenses as different so that you can start to see what are the expenses associated with the therapy practice. Because we don’t want to get those blurred together. Right? 

MereAnn [00:13:16] Right. So if I’m spending out of the LLC, is it a matter of categorizing expenses differently? 

Linzy [00:13:23] Yeah, that would be one way to do it. Like some programs like QuickBooks will also have like tag options. And with Wave, you’d have to see basically like what are the different ways they let you categorize things? Are there tags you could use where it’s like, well, these were both rent, but this half was for my coaching business, this half is for therapy. Are there tags or do you just make two different expense categories in that account where you’re like, rent/therapy, rent/coaching, right? So you can start to separate those things out. And part of that will be understanding how the system works. If your accountant is suggesting Wave, they could be a really good resource for that. To tell them like, I want to have clarity on how these numbers work together and because it’s all out of the one LLC, it makes sense that, you know, the information is mixed to some extent, but you need to figure out how do you want to see it? So in your brain you can immediately see, okay, this is how much I paid in expenses for this business. This is how much I made and this is how much I made off what kind of service. Because it sounds like in your coaching practice, that’s one of the questions that’s floating around, right? Is like what is actually profitable? Which is a great thing to wonder about because sometimes we can really put a lot of energy into something that actually is not making us that much money at the end of the day, because it’s more expensive to run. It takes more of our time. Because we’re making a lot, we lose the fact that it’s also costing us a lot in other ways. 

MereAnn [00:14:39] Yeah. So I’m thinking, you know, it’s not enough to just say, this is a software expense. I need to be saying like, this is my electronic health record expense, this is my Zoom account, right? For my different names. 

Linzy [00:14:53] Yeah. I mean, if you’re really wanting that analysis, that would be the way to get it, right is just getting down to the level of detail that you can see the information that you need to see. Right, to start to understand how your numbers are working. And then first of all, checking in about that, how does that sit with you, thinking about making your system a little more detailed that way? 

MereAnn [00:15:12] Well, the part that makes a lot of sense is so far, I’ve just gone as far as what my tax preparer needs from me. I haven’t taken that next step to think about, okay, what will make sense to my brain? What kind of map do I need? 

Linzy [00:15:29] Absolutely. Because especially at this point, MereAnn, like, I don’t know what language resonates with you, but like you are definitely in CEO territory. Like the leader of your business, CEO, boss, whatever, whatever resonates with you. Like you’ve got a lot of kind of pots on the stove right now. Right. And so part of what that requires, folks cannot see me doing this because this is a podcast, but this is the motion I always do for grounded, which is like I have my hands together holding in front of my chest, just like grounded, calm, clear minded, right? That kind of money boss footing where you’re looking, you understand how things fit together. You can see the information that you want to see. So when you have a question about what’s happening, you know where to get that information. And also you kind of, you know how to put that information together to understand, oh, this thing that I spent so much time on, I actually make very little money. And then you also get to ask those emotional questions of like, but is it worth it for you? Or do you also not really like that thing? Right. But without getting – the first step is to put that information in a way that you can actually get it, right. And right now, you’re not able to do that quite yet. Right. So it’s setting it up for that information to be available to you in the way your brain needs to see it. 

MereAnn [00:16:37] And the part that feels daunting about that is the part that brings me to the old story, which is, gosh, that sounds like a lot of work. And I know cognitively, I know Wave just imports the information, it’ll be like magic. The big “but” is like wrapping my head around my new systems is a whole nother part of the new system. It’s not just deciding, it’s not just connecting the bank accounts. It’s like, okay, how will I dance with this? And it’s feeling like a lot. 

Linzy [00:17:11] Yes, it is more complex, you know, like that’s the word that you and I were talking about a little bit off mic before is like, it’s gotten more complex and it is, it is truly more complex now. Right. You have like multiple ways you’re making money. There’s different like expenses associated with those different moneymaking avenues. And so it’s not just one thing anymore, right? It’s not just you sitting in a room one on one or teaching a small group as a therapist. There is that piece. And so part of it is mindset, right? It’s like, it’s a lot. And how do you want to think about that fact? What does that say about you? That you’ve built a business where there’s a lot going on because there’s so many people who want to pay you in so many different ways for the things that you’re doing. Thinking about it, you know, connecting to what would feel more powerful or resonant or positive for you. What does it say about you and the work that you’ve done, that you’ve gotten to this place where there is more to keep track of? 

MereAnn [00:18:04] I think that it’s the fact that I’ve built relationships and reputation that extend beyond the therapy room is the part that brings me back to like, oh, yeah, I’m steering. Okay. 

Linzy [00:18:18] Yes, you are. 

MereAnn [00:18:19] And I’m wearing all those entrepreneur hats again and doing that heavy lifting of starting. Right. Like if I think about myself as the captain of the ship, I’m not just steering which way we’re going. I’m actually inventing the map. 

Linzy [00:18:37] Yes. 

MereAnn [00:18:38] As we’re already underway. And that’s the part that I think, okay, I know because I have plenty of clients right now. I know that I figured out some things before and people want to talk to me about some of those things. And they’re not trying to copy what I’m doing. They’re wanting to collaborate with me to help them steer themselves. Right. But in order for me to steer myself and help steer them, this money ship is something I have to get a handle on because I’m leaking energy. 

Linzy [00:19:15] Yes. In a way, I’m going to say you’re kind of blowing my mind right now about the metaphor that you just came up with because I’ve been talking about that metaphor for the last couple of days, for the next level coaching program that I’m doing. It’s a metaphor I ran by somebody last week who just joined this Money Boss Mastermind is this next level program, which is about strategy. And I ran the metaphor by her, the exact metaphor you literally just said. And I said, I don’t know if this resonates, but like I have this image of like it’s your ship, right? And you’re building your ship, but you’re also building the strength and capacity and the knowledge to steer your ship because it’s true. Like, at a point, our business has got to be this size where there’s kind of a gravity to them, right? Like a cruise ship. You don’t just, like, turn on a dime, right? It kind of starts going in a direction. So what you’re doing right now, as you say, is you’re thinking about how to patch the leaks in the ship. Right. There’s energetic leaks that aren’t working, that are taking money away or taking time and probably also money. 

MereAnn [00:20:04] And money. 

Linzy [00:20:04] But certainly time and energy away from you being able to come up with new offers, find the right people, change people’s lives. That’s your zone of genius, right? And so patching these leaks and starting to take that grounded captain position, you know, means that you get to not only have something that’s working, but as you say, you get to point it in the direction that you want it to go. And that’s that’s a very powerful thing. But it’s also scary because you probably didn’t grow up wanting to be sea captain. 

MereAnn [00:20:30] And I didn’t grow up thinking I was going to have a six figure business. I have been more intentional about planning this second business, and I can see that that six figures is within reach in, you know, 18 months. I have a plan to do that. 

Linzy [00:20:48] Yeah, absolutely. 

MereAnn [00:20:49] So avoiding or sort of not leaning in to my systems is really going to continue to leak energy. And if I go, it’s going to keep me from following my business plan. 

Linzy [00:21:03] Yes, it is. And it means that you’re kind of steering blind. Right. To extend the metaphor, you know, you’re not really looking where you want to go. You’re not looking at the winds. You know, you’re not understanding how decisions you’ve made have worked or not because you’re not looking at the information that you have. Right. And so thinking about this, MereAnn, you know, the next level of it would be once you have that information marked out in your tracking, because tracking is one thing, then it’s developing a system for yourself to look at those numbers easily on a monthly basis and understand, okay, this is what happened in May, this is how much it costs me. This is how much profit I made on each side of my business. You can even break it down to this is how much profit I made in each service in my coaching business. You know, if I divide the operating expenses in half between the two of them, this is how much I brought in here, this is how much I brought in here. And then you can start to make informed decisions about where you want to spend more of your time, what’s worth your time. And that’s not just financial, right? It’s also emotional. You know, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, it’s not just about maximizing, you know, your return on investment financially. There’s also going to be work that lights you up and that’s fun or that you can only do so much of A so it’s good to have B in the books, right? Like those are part of it too, but it’s putting that information together somewhere. And for my business, I use spreadsheets for this. So every month at the end of the month, I take the data from the month before, I transfer over like the summary numbers that I use QuickBooks for my business now. You would transfer over the summary numbers from Wave, into a place that you can kind of separate them out nicely because Wave may or may not let you do that. It takes probably about half an hour of your time, but then you’re going to spend that CEO time or that captain time, however you want to think about it, to just reflect on where you’ve been and make some conscious decisions about how you want to steer things for the next month. 

MereAnn [00:22:44] And if I think, too, that it’s not just me on this ship, that it’s also my clients and my future clients, like that is part of the mindset shift that helps me find the motivation and a little bit of a sense of urgency. Not so much that I overwhelm myself, but a little bit is great for me. Because things I can learn from getting in with my numbers is like, how many scholarships can I offer exactly to my summer series that’s coming up? And oh, if I can do a full scholarship, how many partial scholarships can I offer? 

Linzy [00:23:18] Exactly. 

MereAnn [00:23:18] Okay. This tells me where to find people who need this information, who need this community, how to communicate. It shapes the messaging and marketing of my business. 

Linzy [00:23:30] Absolutely. 

MereAnn [00:23:31] If I know what I am working with. 

Linzy [00:23:33] Exactly. Because then you’re setting an intentional path, that is informed and then you can follow that path. Right. And and be doing – taking steps that make sense for your business. And then also let you just be very grounded and clear in what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. 

MereAnn [00:23:48] And that’s it. Like a part of why I’m doing it is, is because I run a private pay counseling practice, which is not in everybody’s budget. And so part of my my idea with running groups is that it’s another entry point for support where I don’t have to do all the heavy lifting, where everybody in the community participates and that group energy is shared. But then if I’m all about creating this group energy, but I’m not plugging my own energy leaks, it’s not sustainable. 

Linzy [00:24:23] It’s not sustainable. No. And that will show up in different ways in our work. Right. When we do start to get into that out of balance place where we’re starting to get depleted, that’s, you know, an invitation for resentment or burnout or just generally feeling less excited about the work. And it sounds to me like this, I mean, this is the work that you’re so passionate about, right? That it’s part of how I’m thinking about as you’re talking about it now, is it’s a way to honor yourself and the work by taking the time to be intentional and looking at this information and making informed decisions. 

MereAnn [00:24:52] And allow me to continue offering something that people have really shown that they’re interested in and they’re benefiting from. 

Linzy [00:25:01] Absolutely, yes. 

MereAnn [00:25:01] And so this idea of the leadership coming with the responsibility for the money piece, that needs to be part of my new story. 

Linzy [00:25:11] Yes. So, MereAnn, coming towards the end of our time today, what are you taking away from this conversation? 

MereAnn [00:25:17] I think this is managing my money in my business is an area where I need support and I keep learning that over and over again. And so, having people on my team that help me both stay accountable and who are right there when I have a question, is part of how I keep myself from getting flooded and getting stuck. And so coming back today, you know, as an alum of the Money Nuts & Bolts program, I’m remembering that feeling of having a community, having a cohort to go to. So that’s what that’s part of where I’m thinking about this is is not only how do I support myself, but I really am craving more community around this because it’s easy for me to get stuck, it’s an old habit. 

Linzy [00:26:11] Absolutely. Yes. 

MereAnn [00:26:12] And also that I have a responsibility to my clients and to my, the health of my businesses – plural. 

Linzy [00:26:20] Yes. 

MereAnn [00:26:21] To find a way to get on top of this. And it doesn’t have to be rigid, but it does need to be something that I can feel like I’m capably steering. Quickbooks was probably too much for me too. 

Linzy [00:26:34] Yeah, it’s finding the right tool that gives you the information that you need and too much is a problem. And hopefully Wave will hit more of a sweet spot for you. But then I would also encourage you to add the things to Wave that Wave’s not telling you about, that you want to know about as the leader of your business. 

MereAnn [00:26:48] Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:26:50] Great. Well, thank you so much, MereAnn. 

MereAnn [00:26:52] Oh, thank you. It’s always nice to have a chat with you and I appreciate it. 

Linzy [00:27:10] In my conversation with MereAnn, there were a couple of things that stuck out. The first would be the ocean metaphors. She had her metaphor about, you know, like bobbing up and down in the waves and then we had the metaphor of the ship. And I think that really gets to the heart of how it can feel sometimes when we’re overwhelmed by money and we feel, you know, we don’t have control, it can feel like this very vast, overwhelming experience like the ocean can be when you’re bobbing up and down. But I loved how she also then came up with that metaphor of the ship and how different it feels when you have built something that works and you are the captain and you are steering it confidently. It’s a very different feeling, and I really felt that shift in energy in the course of our coaching session. We kind of started like up in our heads and I certainly started off in my head just trying to understand, you know, the way that things are working and the way that things were laid out in her business and what was, what systems were already in place. But then as we moved into the mindset piece, that is such an important part of the equation, I really found that both of us, our energy settled into our body. You know, and MereAnn felt so calm and I felt so calm talking to her, just this kind of like settled, empowered, strong, peaceful stance that she started to have in our conversation, which was very different than when she started when she started to play with the idea of really being this captain and setting up the systems and all of the positive that comes from actually taking the time to look at her numbers and make sure she understands them and is making thoughtful decisions as she charts her path. If you would like to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandnolts. We are sharing free, practical and emotional private practice money content on there all the time. And if you have 1, let’s see 3 minutes right now, if you have 3 minutes. I’m going to ask you if you can please hop over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review for Money Skills For Therapists. It’s so helpful in having other therapists who could really use these conversations to find me. I would really appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining me today.