Dena [00:00:04] If we look at the systems of oppression in which we work, white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, ableism, all of these things tell people like us to stay small so you don’t disrupt the status quo. We want to get big so we can disrupt the status quo. We can’t do that by being small. 

Linzy [00:00:29] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited for today’s episode. Listening back, I was having my own aha moments and I was part of the original conversation. But first I wanted to tell you that today’s episode is brought to you by my masterclass, The 4-Step Framework to Getting Your Business Finances Totally in Order. The price for Money Skills For Therapists is going up in 2022, so if you’re interested in the course, check out the masterclass today. It’s going to lay out my approach to money in general. I’m going to describe all the helpful ways that we get you going from money confusion and shame to calm and clarity in Money Skills For Therapists. And it’s your chance to slide in the door at the 2021 price before it goes up $700 in 2022. So if you’re curious to learn more, if you’re interested in Money Skills For Therapists, check out the link in the show notes today to get into that 2021 price before we close the doors. So my guest today is Dena Omar. Dena is an anti-racist feminist therapist who identifies as part of the LGBTQIA+ community. She is a graduate of Money Skills For Therapists. She finished up the course about a year and a half ago now, and her growth in that time has been phenomenal. Dena and I today dig in to taking up space as therapists and business owners and practitioners and women and BIPOC as a political act. We explore how taking up space with money allows us to turn our money into time and make our life actually reflect the things that we really value, and also how money allows us to turn our energy towards making bigger change and taking up space. Dena and I really challenge this idea of money for the sake of money, but look into how money can be a powerful tool to shape your life and shape your community and ultimately make political change in the world. So this conversation is full of opportunities for AHA moments that I’ve had some listening back, and I suspect that many of you listening today because we’re all steeped in capitalism and white supremacy and schooling that tells us to stay small. We’ll probably be able to have lots of aha moments today, too. So here’s Dena Omar. 

Linzy [00:03:21] So, Dena, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Dena [00:03:24] Thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:26] So, Dena, as I just mentioned in your bio, your passion and focus right now is anti oppression in therapy. So I know this is something that a lot of our listeners will be able to share similar values. This is something that we think about a lot as people who hopefully are educated in systemic oppression and think about these things a lot, you know, coming into the work that we do. And I see this a lot is like a conflict that we have internally as therapists who are aware of what’s wrong with the world and systemic oppression. And so, one question that I have for you is, as therapists, how can we resolve the fact that we are running private practices within capitalism, which is a system that we largely don’t like? Many therapists listening to this show will not be like pro pro-capitalism, but reconciling that that’s the framework that we work in with the fact that we need to meet our own needs. 

Dena [00:04:18] Yeah, I think that’s a really great question and one that I wrestle with a lot, especially as I get bigger and try to do more in the world of therapy. And I think about it like, how do I get to be a worse capitalist and still meet my needs? And that’s a really huge question. I want to consume less. I want to pay myself and my employees more. And I think that for most of us, because the work that we do is- we are mostly women who are doing therapy. We are also running up against patriarchy. And this idea that we’re worth less, that the work that we do is worth less. So I think part of it is naming this idea that we’re working in a capitalist system and that we need- that we want to- not just need to, but we want to reject some of those ideals. And that means really valuing the work that we do, putting a price tag on it that says this is important. This is important to me. This is important to my clients and it’s got value. And in a capitalist system, value is is largely determined by money, how much you pay for something. So I think that’s an important part. I think the other side of that coin is then valuing rest, valuing taking breaks, valuing putting our time and energy into things that aren’t just making us money and deciding where those things are and what’s important to me. Spending time with my family, going on vacations, being in nature, all those things that you know, we call self-care. It really is sort of saying to patriarchy, you don’t have all my time and energy. I think we get caught up in that cycle in private practice. If I’m not earning money, I’m not valuable. And if I’m not working, I’m not earning money. And we need to change how we value ourselves and change how we do this thing of earning money. 

Linzy [00:06:18] So I’m hearing like a couple of different ideas there. One is actually by valuing our services higher, like by pricing them maybe higher than our maybe than our first gut instinct is. That actually, kind of- what is that? Is that sticking it to capitalism? Or is it just like like, you know, is that is that taking our place in capitalism and saying it’s valuable? Tell me more about how you see those things being connected. 

Dena [00:06:42] Yeah, I see it as an F-U to capitalism. Yeah. Like, you’re going to tell me in this capitalist patriarchal white supremacist culture that the work I do isn’t valuable and I’m going to say it is. And people who value this will come to me and do what we need to do. And we will then translate that into our clients and will help our clients learn to value themselves more. So it’s really this fundamental grassroots movement of helping marginalized folks become more empowered. If we can say, Look, this is really valuable and you’re valuable and you’re spending this money on yourself. It’s not you’re spending it on me, you’re spending this money on yourself and you’re valuable. And so how do we then, you know, kind of push- keep pushing that. 

Linzy [00:07:30] You know, typically, I think therapy is devalued because it is women’s work. It is the work that tends to come naturally to women. It’s the work that women were never paid for before, but that they did for their communities and their families and their friend groups and and whatever else. So by actually saying this is valuable, we’re pushing back against that message that, you know, it’s not valuable because it’s what women do. 

Dena [00:07:53] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It’s care work, and care work is valuable. 

Linzy [00:07:57] So valuable. And then I’d love to unpack this other part of what you were saying too about like rest and taking a break. I love you naming being less consumeristic or anti-consumerism in what you do because that that really resonates with me because what I do notice is, you know, therapists, we do have this ability to have like this upward mobility, right? Like we are in a profession where you can charge $30 a session or you can charge like 130 for the exact same session and your quality of life has, just like your income, has changed drastically for doing the same work right and people will pay at both price points. And so what I see can happen really quickly is like we can fall into lifestyle creep, where it’s like, Well, now we have more money so now we have a somewhat nicer car and we go on this like nicer trip where we buy nicer clothes. It’s like we turn it into consumerism. And I’m wondering for you. Tell me about like turning it into time or rest instead. 

Dena [00:08:54] I think you summed it up really great, turning it into time and rest. And I think it starts with understanding where your values are. And that’s a really in-depth long term- we’re not just talking about, Oh, I value my family, right? We’re talking about where do I really spend my time and my money that translates into my values. I feel most in line with myself when my time and my money are going to where my values are. And so doing that deep dive into what do I value? How do I then spend my resources on that? So for example, maybe one of the things that I do is donate more to the causes that are important to me. Maybe I diversify where I spend my money, all of the things that are important to me, I put money into over time, right? It’s not just I buy my kid a new toy, but we spend time playing together. We spend time going for walks. And if I’m making more money, I have the time to do that. Our time and money are intricately linked. And I would throw values in there are time money and values are key in how we spend our lives. 

Linzy [00:10:07] Because that is your life. In the end, that is what your life is. Your life is how you spend your time, and it’s easy to spend our time trying to make money to turn it into things. But that’s not actually- at the end of your life you’re not like, That Lamborghini, that was really it for me. That was it. That was the meaning. 

Dena [00:10:24] That was everything. I think the other factor. And for some of your listeners who are going to be business owners who are going to be group practice owners, is that then you can translate that into how you pay your employees and that we can start saying to our employees, you don’t have to run this rat race of agency work. You can actually be an employee in a group practice who makes a really good wage and does really good work, and we can pass on those values to more and more therapists. This is how it gets bigger. This is the drop in the lake that just kind of goes out and out and out. It’s not just clients, it’s other therapists. It’s creating that tidal wave of really good healers who are doing this work. 

Linzy [00:11:09] Yeah. And I think that, you know, when you take that position like you are, Dena, of like becoming a group practice owner and you have people working for you now you’re creating working conditions for other people. I know I think about this a lot, something that I’ve been kind of like joking and reflecting on in terms of my turn into doing this business and helping therapists with their businesses rather than just doing therapy is like I want to win at capitalism. And winning at capitalism means, like, how can I generate a good revenue for my family so we’re comfortable, secure- security is really important to me personally- and also be a great boss who creates a great work environment where my employees, I’m not kind of basically profiting off of their exploitation. If I was going to be like really Marxist sounding about it. Because I think it’s easy for that to happen, even when we get into group practice, right? Like we start to see our employees as like revenue generating machines. 

Dena [00:12:00] It’s dehumanizing, is what you’re talking about. And we all know that feeling when we’ve worked in agencies. They only wanted me for my productivity. I was completely replaceable because I was not a unique. I was just a cog in the wheel. We know that feeling. And it’s really sad when we then get into group practice and replicate that because we don’t know anything else. And I would say that that group owners don’t intentionally- they have really good intentions, and it happens because we don’t have another model, so we need to create another model.  

Linzy [00:12:32] Yeah. And I would say part of it too is by having like presence and intention around money, like having money skills – that gives us the ability to start to to build that model, to create a sustainable model because you don’t want to be also creating a business that’s like always on the brink of closing because you’re actually spending more money than you have on your employees. Right, but you can start to find like, what is that actual real model that really works where employees are happy and healthy and they don’t feel like they’re just like cogs in the machine. But we’re also- you, as the person who owns the business, is getting paid for that work. And you know, you’re able to have spaciousness in your world as well. So, like what I’m hearing, Dena, you talk about, it flies in the face a little bit I think of what a message is a lot of us, I know for me, like growing up, especially feminist activism in my 20s, I have like a lot of trauma in that area. More therapy needed. But there was a lot I feel like there’s often this pressure when you are in those activist spaces to like, be small. Right? It’s like there’s all these problems in the world. Don’t take up space, right? Like, be small. We need to like, you know, in terms of fees for therapists, it means like, have a small fee, be accessible. And what I’m hearing from you was saying something different. So like what? Tell me more about kind of the- what is your kind of model or theory here that’s not about being small in order to be anti-oppressive? 

Dena [00:13:51] This is a hard one because there’s bringing together lots of different theories. But if we look at the systems of oppression in which we work: white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, ableism, all of these things tell people like us to stay small so you don’t disrupt the status quo. We want to get big so we can disrupt the status quo. We can’t do that by being small. We can’t do that from- the Audre Lorde quote, “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house,” right? We need to be big enough to be able dismantle the system. And that doesn’t happen by staying small. That doesn’t happen by not knowing. That doesn’t happen by sticking our heads in the sand. So we need to get bigger. We need to say this is important work. I think about in Arizona here, we just last year, the teachers unions got really big and they got really loud, and they had this whole movement about paying teachers more and valuing teachers work. It went nowhere, but it was a really good moment for teachers unions, and we don’t do that, especially in private practice, we’re little bubbles, where we’re doing our own thing and not really talking to each other much. Partly because of capitalism, we feel like we have to compete with other therapists in town. We have to compete with other people. So we’re essentially starting from this mindset of not having enough. When we start moving into an abundance mindset, we start getting bigger, we can really disrupt the systems that that keep us in these places. It’s all connected.  

Linzy [00:15:28] Yeah. And I think when we do that too. Certainly what I’ve seen is is we will get pushback from from our own people, from our own friends, from our own colleagues and like classmates, they will try to police us back into being small. 

Dena [00:15:41] Yes, I had a supervisee who told me that her previous supervisor told me it was unethical for her to charge higher rates and higher rates at even at a fairly low amount. She was she was at like 110, which is not like she was at 300 or 400 dollars. And the other supervisor was telling her it was unethical to do that, and I just- it felt like a punch in the gut. So that’s really saying you don’t- you’re not worthy, you’re not valuable. It’s dehumanizing. You should just grind. And the hazing process that we have to go through, that’s another whole soapbox for me. It just is awful. So we need to change that. 

Linzy [00:16:21] Yeah. So, Dena, you know, in terms of your own growth as a therapist, I’m going to guess you have your own story here, just a feeling. Can you share a little bit with me about your own shift from being like in this place of trying to stay small, being told to be small, into being big, taking up space? 

Dena [00:16:38] That’s a good question and kind of a long story. The culture and the place where I grew up had many, many, many messages about being small and women are, women do, women aren’t big. And I pushed back against that in a lot of ways. And then I got into social work school and found that we were just sort of expected to be in this place where we were in second rate roles to doctors in some places, to psychiatrists in some places, to other case managers. That therapy was an adjunct. And that always just rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like what we do should be primary, should be. And then I got into private practice out of agency work, and it felt like a huge relief. And I thought, Oh, I could do this forever. I could just be this, chugging along, I had a full caseload, I was making what I thought was enough money, like it was enough and I was still unsatisfied. I was over systemd. I had, you know, I was over focused on keeping track of my money because I was beholden to insurance companies and it was really complicated and really hard. And then I started taking a hard look at, OK, how do I simplify? How do I stop spending my energy on chasing my tail and spend my energy on building something that I wanted? And it was that shift in focus. And I think that the first time I really got that Linzy was in your program, was that shift in focus from spending my energy spinning my wheels to spending my energy growing something. That was huge for me, and that was that was the thing that really unlocked my energy to make change. Maybe this is another thing about pushing back against capitalism when we have- capitalism says you have to do the grind to end the system, say if you don’t do the grind, you’re not good enough. But if you don’t do the grind, you have energy to change the system. So when I finally had enough spaciousness to start thinking about things other than where’s my income coming from, I could think about, Well, this is wrong and I want to make change. And not just where do I spend my money, but how do I want to make a bigger change? How do I want to get bigger and do these things? So it was really connected with finding the spaciousness in my income that gave me the time and energy to do this other work. 

Linzy [00:19:15] And when you say, in your case, you know, like the spaciousness in your income? What did you do? For people who are listening who are like, I want that? What did you do? 

Dena [00:19:22] Yeah, yeah. So I got rid of systems, which seems really counterintuitive, but I had way too many and I was spending way too much time freaking out and checking and rechecking. So part of that was having confidence in what I was doing and knowing that it was going to work and believing that the money was going to be there. I was freaked out that it just wasn’t going to show up. And of course it did. When I did the work, the money came. So that was a big part of it was really getting a good handle on what I have coming in, going out, cutting some expenses that I didn’t need. That was really helpful, but I needed to know- I needed some help figuring out what are the expenses I don’t need. What do I need? What’s going to help me and what’s not going to help me? That was that was a big deal. And I did raise my fee quite a bit and I got more comfortable raising my fee. I got more comfortable saying, this is what I charge, and it will probably change again. It will go up again as I change things. That was another thing. Was this idea that change is OK. I think we get stuck in this, especially for those of us who are perfectionists, we get stuck in this sense of, well, if I didn’t do it last year, then I can’t do it this year or I have to do it right immediately. And that was really helpful, having permission to to make change. 

Linzy [00:20:44] Yeah, that making change and like working against your perfectionism, like, I see that so much, Dena, with students that I work with in the course. I think we’re also so used to like being achievers and like being good and like doing it right. And so what I notice is sometimes we’ll just stay the same because of some rule we’ve made up like, well, I can’t change my financial system now because I really want to have it like at the tax year. So I’m just going to keep doing this thing that’s not working and stressing me out for another six months until I can do it perfectly by like transitioning at the exact right time. And we make these rules that that have the effect of making us small. And when you’re talking too about managing like being over systemd like, I love to hear you mention that because that’s something that I feel like doesn’t always get flagged as an issue because it’s like you’re so organized. You have so many systems, like more systems are better. But as you talk about like that, simplification gave you the space and energy to focus on what you actually care about building, which in your case was building something new. And what I notice about being over systematized often it’s just about trying to manage our anxiety. Right? That’s what it is. In the end, it’s like all these like salves that we’re using to try to make ourselves feel good. And I know for myself when I’m in a space where I’m like, overly focused on systems, there’s this like small, tight feeling that happens, which has nothing. It’s a completely different experience than when you’re in this space that you’re talking about being. And now where you’re like expanding, creative, solving problems, developing language for people, it’s a completely different frame of mind. 

Dena [00:22:14] Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. 

Linzy [00:22:16] So, Dena, for people who want to hear more from you, tell us a little bit more about what you do and what offers you have for people who want to learn from you. 

Dena [00:22:27] Yeah, I’m super excited. I’ve got a couple of things coming up. The first one is a half day workshop, so 4-hour workshop, around anti-oppression therapy and how to become an anti-oppression therapist. I’m really excited. We’re going to cover tons of different topics, of course, racism, white supremacy, but also ableism and queer identity. And how do we connect with clients beyond cultural competence? This is really the framework that I keep thinking of. You know, we have three hours of cultural competence that are required every two years. It’s not enough, and cultural competence is a really terrible lens to work through. It keeps us mired in those systems of oppression. So I really want to explore what does it mean to do it differently? How do we do private practice differently? How do we set ourselves as compassionate healers for marginalized folks? And it’s just not something that we learn. The other cool thing that I do in all of my trainings is it’s not just me lecturing at you, and I think that’s what we get a lot in cultural competency kind of stuff: I’m going to tell you what people who are insert identity experience. That’s not what we’re going to do. We’re really going to start with my own identity. We’re going to do a lot of exploration about identity development. And then how do I reach clients who are different than me? How do I help them when I don’t have that same experience? Because so many of us on this side are white or white-identified or straight, or all of those things where we have privilege and we really are missing the opportunity to help people in our society who need the most and therapy just does not do a good job with that. So I have my four-hour intro course afternoon we’re going to spend together doing this work. And then for people who want to do a deeper dive. I have a 12 week intensive where we talk about all this stuff, we have homework, we have accountability, and we talk about some of the practice grow things. And how do I advertise myself so that I’m not attracting only white clients, for example, how do I look in the world so that people of color and people who are queer and people who have disabilities will come to see me because that’s a big part of it. 

Linzy [00:24:58] That’s great. So your website then, if people want to find you and learn more about these offerings, where can they find you? 

Dena [00:25:05] Yeah. DenaOmar.com it’s the easiest place. I also have an Instagram. You can follow me there. Yeah. So all that information will be there. 

Linzy [00:25:14] Great. Okay, and those links are in the show notes below. You can always just click over from there. So thank you so much, Dena. It has been so- I always love talking to you, and today is no exception. It’s been wonderful to talk to you today. 

Dena [00:25:26] Thank you, Linzy. I appreciate it. 

Linzy [00:25:42] I so appreciated my conversation with Dena. I really appreciated the pieces about looking at your values, your deeper values, and that’s something that I’ve talked about with some other podcast guests as well, because I think that’s such an important piece that can get missed when we get into the grind, as Dena puts it, of building a business and earning money and being self-employed. We just start to focus on making the business work, earning money, earning more, working more, as if that is the value of our life. And of course, that’s what capitalism tells us that it is. But when we actually zoom out and look at what are our real, authentic values, how do we really want to spend our life? I think about, when I die, what will I look back and actually value? What’s going to actually matter in the end? That can be really clarifying for how to make money work for us now and how to build your practice so that it serves your life now, not later, which is probably coming, but is never guaranteed. So, so, so clarifying Dena is brilliant. Absolutely check her out. She, I know, is building some great offers for therapists around anti oppressive therapy. So if you want to do more learning in that area, if you’re interested. Definitely check out Dena. We’ve got her links below in the show notes, and I’m just so appreciative of her for having this conversation with me. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. We’re putting out free money mindset, practical private practice stuff all the time. If you want to learn more from me and actually start working on getting your money working for you in your life, like Dena has done in a big way. Check out my masterclass, The 4-Step Framework to Getting Your Business Finances Totally in Order. As I’ve mentioned, the price is going up in 2022, part of taking up more space, having more impact. I’m doing it too. And that means that if you check out the masterclass now, if it’s 2021 when you’re listening, this is your chance to slide in at that 2021 price before it goes up in 2022. You can check out the link in the show notes. In the masterclass, I lay out my approach to money. You’re going to learn some of the big mistakes that therapists are making when we’re trying to get our money working for us. You’re also going to learn about Money Skills For Therapists, how I help you go from money confusion and shame to common confidence. Like Dena has done. And it’s your opportunity to jump into the course at the 2021 price before it goes up in 2022. Thank you so much for listening today.

Jelisha [00:00:01] I think the willingness to pour that money out allows it to pour back into you. And like believing that it will come to you – and I don’t want to say come back, I don’t want to say it like that because that has, like a mentality, like I gave something that is mine. And it’s like, No, this money isn’t mine. It flows. I don’t know if that makes sense. Thinking about it from that perspective, there’s just so much ease. 

 

Linzy [00:00:29] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is brought to you by the Waitlist for my course, Money Skills For Therapists. In 2022, we’re going to be raising the price of the course, like I hope all of you raise your fees from time to time, it’s an important part of having a healthy business. And this is your chance to get on the waitlist so you can get into the course at 2021 pricing. If you’ve been thinking about the course, if you’re curious about it, get on the waitlist. Then you will hear when we open the doors for the course and you can get in at that 2021 pricing, but start the course in 2022 so you don’t need to worry about starting over the holidays. You can start fresh in 2022, but lock in that 2021 price. You can check out the link in the show notes for the waitlist. So today’s episode is with Jelisha Gatling. Jelisha Gatling is a wonderful human. I need to start by saying that. I have known Jelisha for three years now. She was a graduate of Money Skills For Therapists back in 2018, and the progress that Jelisha has made the transformation in her relationship to money is incredible in that time. It is just a night to day transformation from where she was when I met her back in 2018, to where she is now, where she’s actually working with couples around money. She’s actually made this part of her clinical practice to really dig into money when she used to be super, super, super anxious about it when she started the course back in 2018. Today we dig into so many tips and tricks, and more than any episode I’ve done to date, this one is just so full of tips and tricks from Jelisha on how to shift your mindset around money. And most importantly, we really dig into how to actually enjoy money. We really debunk this myth that is so common that more money equals happiness. We don’t usually necessarily think about that myth so directly, but so often we carry this belief of, OK, well, when my practice brings in $50000, then I’m going to feel good and I’m going to enjoy life and it’s going to feel great and easy. OK, when my practice brings in $100000, then things are going to be easy. Then it’s all going to make sense. And Jelisha and I really dig into this story and debunk this story, and she gives some really great tips on ways to actually enjoy money now. Ways to shift your mindset, ways to just make money work for you emotionally and practically. So enjoy this episode with Jelisha Gatling. 

 

Linzy [00:03:14] So Jelisha. Welcome, thanks for being here. 

 

Jelisha [00:03:17] Thank you for having me, Linzy, I’m really excited. 

 

Linzy [00:03:20] I’m excited, too, because Jelisha, you and I have worked together in a couple of capacities over a few years, so I have seen a lot change for you in that time. 

 

Jelisha [00:03:31] Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:03:33] In a way that I think most people could only aspire to. So I’m really excited to kind of like, pick your brain and lay out some ideas for people to help them get where you are. And maybe just like very briefly, in terms of where you are, when I first met you, I think you had a lot of anxiety around money. 

 

Jelisha [00:03:51] Yeah, big understatement. Crippled by anxiety. 

 

Linzy [00:03:57] Yes. And now if you could just briefly summarize for me, like even just your business stuff, what’s happening in your business world now, just so people kind of know, know more about you before we dig into all your gems you have for us. 

 

Jelisha [00:04:11] I mean, now the anxiety is pretty much nonexistent. When it comes up, though, I’m able to really squash it quickly and notice those old stories coming up. But I’d say, like, what’s shifted is just no more anxiety, not even just around money, but around clients, and what’s going to happen, and if I can do it, just like there’s so much more confidence and I’ve been able to expand my business in ways that I wasn’t even thinking about. Opportunities have really opened up that I wouldn’t have even been able to see at that point. 

 

Linzy [00:04:46] Yeah. And now part of the work that we are doing is actually helping therapists around their businesses and money and mindset. And you do work with couples too, around money, as well. 

 

Jelisha [00:04:57] Yes. Yes, I do. It’s lovely. I actually just got certified in premarital counseling with this Prepare Enrich training certification, and I’ve been seeing a lot of premarital couples who haven’t talked about money, so I’ve been having so many good juicy conversations. It’s great to like, dig into that with them and really create a safe space and help them to understand that we have a relationship to money. There’s so many people, they’re like, What are you? I mean, at least me. I remember when I started looking into this, I was like, What do you mean, relationship with money? I don’t have any. So I don’t have a relationship.

 

Linzy [00:05:32] Yes. What relationship is there to have? Yeah. Oh, that sounds like such… like, juicy work. I think that’s the exact word I would have said. Like, oh, talking with couples who’ve never talked about money before. Yeah, that’s fun. So for you, Jelisha, what have you ditched along the way? Like, I know you’ve let go of a lot. What have you let go of that has helped you to have this less anxious relationship with money that you’re telling us about? 

 

Jelisha [00:05:56] I think the biggest thing is what I call goal posts like I had all of these milestones that I thought once I hit this, then I will feel more secure. I won’t feel anxious with money. So it went from, Oh, I’m in college, I’m not supposed to have money. You know, that’s what it is. You’ll have that when you get a job. And then I got the job and I still was really stressed and struggling. And then I got another job and then I went back to school and I was like, I got to get a real job. And then it was like, OK, once I got into private practice, it was like, OK, I’m going to struggle until I make $50K like that. Literally. I was like when I hit 50, I was up for that promotion. I was so excited and I was still like, struggling. And I’m like, How does- I don’t get it? So it just kept moving and I realized, Jelisha, there’s something else happening. There’s something that you’re missing here. And so I think like ditching those goalposts and realizing that it was so much deeper as far as like managing money, knowing what was happening. It wasn’t a matter of how much I made or how hard I worked because I thought if you worked super hard, working all the time, then the money will come and everything will be good. But that didn’t happen. And alongside that, I was able to let go of this withholding pattern that I had with money where I would have money, I would have a little bit more than I needed, and I would just hang on to it for dear life and feel like I couldn’t spend it on anything because I didn’t know when it was going to get taken away because of something unexpected happening. I just was… fearful to enjoy money when I had a little bit of surplus, so it was very conflicting. 

 

Linzy [00:07:33] Yeah, well, and something that I remember you talking about when we first worked together. This was so impactful to me that like, I use it now, I talk about this a lot. It’s like, is that idea that once you had a certain number, you’ll be fine, right? Like, you’ll figure it out. Like once you have a certain number, then money is going to be easy. But from what we were kind of chatting about a little bit before, it sounds like that story also came up again, even when you did have money skills, but in a different way. So can you tell me about that, like repetition of that story? Because I think this is a really interesting thing because this is so common, right, that we do have this idea of once once x, then y. Once X, then Y, right? And so tell me about… kind of the next level. Once you kind of got money skills, how did that story show up again? 

 

Jelisha [00:08:15] So it showed up again with every uplevel, essentially, and I think recognizing that that might come up can be helpful, but had these stars that would come up when I would think about, oh my gosh, when I hit six figures like, I will feel so secure and amazing and I’ll be able to do any and everything I want. And I hit six figures and it was underwhelming and I still like, struggle with spending things, even if I had the numbers in front of me and it that I had it like, there’s still that… those old stories that it’s going to be taken away. What if I don’t make this much in the next few months, like really putting pressure on myself and feeling like, what if this is taken away? What if this is a fluke? What if- my average was 10 K for like six months straight and I was like, This is going to get taken away at any point, I’m going to go back to those 3K, 2K months and I’m going to have to go back to bartending like those stories come up and I have to talk myself down. But it’s like, kind of recognizing that that was happening. It has allowed me to really relax and just like, normalize it when it comes up and then just like, shut it down. 

 

Linzy [00:09:22] So what is a different way to think about it then. If we’d stop thinking about money in terms of when this happens, then this. Whatever our stories are and whatever the number is. If we let go of that kind of “milestones” idea, what’s another way that you find is more helpful to think about money and how it works? 

 

Jelisha [00:09:36] You’re more susceptible to falling into that if you don’t have a specific thing that is meaningful to you that you will be able to do or buy. It could even be just not working weekends or not working evenings, whatever it might be. There has to be something attached to the number or to getting 10 more clients or to making one hundred and fifty thousand. Like what is going to be different for you that is meaningful. And so I think for me, with the 6K, I was like, I would just have more shit and have more fun. I don’t know. Like, it was very random. But I just… I thought that that would just give me this like, I don’t know, this feeling of I don’t want to say invincibility, but I just thought it was going to be magical. It was just vague. I didn’t really have anything tied to it. So I think, like focusing on what is it, that you want to experience, and getting as specific as possible, like super specific. Not even just I want to take two vacations. How many days do I want to be on vacation and how many days, before I leave and after, do I want off? Because that lights me up. When I can have time to decompress before and after, not working immediately upon coming back. That, ooh, that is juicy. So like, I can… like… roll with that kind of goal, but it’s more specific. And it’s not just like this idea. And I think a lot of people- I don’t know if you resonate with that, like when you were maybe below 100K, and you’d like, hit that you were like, were you expecting like confetti? 

 

Linzy [00:11:07] Yeah, yeah. Confetti. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that it is underwhelming usually. I mean, but it depends on what you do with it, right? It’s underwhelming if, as you say, you’re just kind of vague about your idea of what it’s going to be like and you’re not specific, like what I’m hearing from you, I think, is make it special, make it specific, like have a specific reward that like really hits the spot for you. Because I think that we do live in this culture that gives us this idea that “money is” just makes you feel good by itself, just by virtue of having it. Like people who have a million dollars, feel so good every single day. That’s not true. It’s not true because nobody feels good every single day. So it’s like, what I’m hearing from you is with those milestones, if you want to make milestones special, attach something to it that actually makes it meaningful for you personally. 

 

Jelisha [00:11:54] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:11:54] Right. And so it could be, like you said, like this vacation that has a buffer on either side. Like that, for you, is especially delicious. Or for somebody, it could be like going to visit a family member in a specific place. Like really make it special because it’s not actually that special. 

 

Jelisha [00:12:09] It’s more like you are approaching it from the thing that you want. So rather than okay, when I get 100K, I’m going to do this, but I want to have two vacations that are seven days and I have maybe a week before off, or whatever it might be. And like, OK, how much more what I need to have or to save towards to do that thing working from that. But we’ll just grab these random milestones that society has told us, you know, when you hit this, you’ll make it. I’ll help you make six figures. And I mean, I said that myself working with therapists and I’ve been… like… kind of rethinking that because it’s, you know, and really try to talk about the things that I have been able to do upon making that much money more. 

 

Linzy [00:12:49] Yeah, because when the goalpost moves too, I think we’re also just like deferring, deferring our responsibility for being happy now. 

 

Jelisha [00:12:56] Ooh, yes. ooh. 

 

Linzy [00:12:58] Because I see that in the business world that I’m in now, which is kind of a little bit removed from the therapy world, like I’m now in the world of people where it’s like, well, you make six, so now you make seven. Now your goal is seven. It’s like, what? I just hit this goal. Now the goal is like that much bigger. And it’s like, that’s the new dream. When you hit seven, then life is easier. The reality is, when you have seven, this is what it actually looks like. You’ve a bunch of staff, you’ve bunch of responsibility. Now you have to make a bunch of money every month just to make sure everybody’s paid and everything’s running. And yes, you can bring home more money, but you also have a lot more work, right? And maybe you’re bringing home that more money. But if you’re not actually like building your life properly, you’re also more tired. You’re more stressed, right? Like, it’s not necessarily actually more happiness. It’s just more money. But yeah, I think that it is, in some ways, the story that we tell ourselves that means that we don’t have to worry about taking care of ourselves today. We’re going to do it later. I’m going to be happy later. I’m going to figure this out later. 

 

Jelisha [00:13:53] Totally. 

 

Linzy [00:13:54] And you were talking before we started recording. You were talking about this idea, instead of thinking about it in milestones, as like kind of this flow of money, money being something that flows, let’s… let’s dig into that. 

 

Jelisha [00:14:06] So when I’m talking about money flowing, literally, it might sound a little weird, but I think of myself as like a conduit for money. Not only do I have way less anxiety where I’m like hoarding money, but like I have a willingness and an enjoyment to spend money, to invest money. And even- I was even thinking about like, OK, with your course, Linzy, I invested money. I poured money into your business, but I was investing in myself at the same time. It was like this beautiful like mutuality, right? And you’re, I’m assuming, get joy out of helping people do this right? I think the willingness to pour that money out allows it to pour back into you and like believing that it will come to you. And I want to say, come back. I don’t want to say it like that because that has like a mentality like I gave something that is mine and it’s like, No, this money isn’t mine. It flows. I don’t know if that makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:15:03] Totally. 

 

Jelisha [00:15:04] Thinking about it from that perspective, there’s just so much ease and it really gets rid of if you have any stories with money where you are afraid of not having enough or it getting taken away like I used to feel like something would always happen. My car. Like, there will always be something. I was in the hospital. Like just random stuff as soon as I got just like barely ahead. And just like ditching that has allowed this beautiful flow, which kind of speaks to the opportunities I was telling you about that have just like poured into my life. I’m like, not out here hustling. I’m really not. But I think it’s just like, you have to not only be willing to pour that out and to invest in yourself, but also to receive it. And a lot of times we’re like closing the doors to that. 

 

Linzy [00:15:51] Yeah, I mean, it does make me think of this thing that my own therapist has said to me before about like that money is energy, right? And so if you just think about it, as like money is almost like this temporary storage for that energy. Right. And so it’s like, we do this work and it’s work that we love and that’s its own reward, right? And so like, there’s this energy that we put in. Somebody else gives it back to us in the form of like money, which is also energy. But it’s like, what are we going to do with that to continue this positive flow of energy, right? It’s easy to like be like, I need to store that away and I can’t look at it and pretend it’s not there. And you know, saving is one thing if you have like this positive and it’s building something, but sometimes we can move into this hoarding and what you’re doing when you do that is you’re just like freezing that energy. Now that money’s not going to do anything for you. You’re just like taking this, this kind of gift that you are given and you’re leaving it to kind of stagnate. And that’s not always what saving is. Saving is great. But that can be the relationship that we have when we have more of, like a tightness or scarcity around it. 

 

Jelisha [00:16:48] Totally. 

 

Linzy [00:16:49] Right. So it sounds like more of this moving and and in that too, I think with the moving, what I love about that visual, Jelisha, is I do think it also addresses what you were just talking about of this fear of like something bad is going to happen because I’ve totally found myself thinking that too of like, what if I can’t work? And it’s like, Well, realistically, what is the scenario in which I can’t work? And even if I can’t work, eventually I’ll work again. I’ll have more energy. As long as I’m alive, I might just like, see two clients on the side, you know, when I’m not napping all day. But like like, I think that it also addresses the reality of like we’re people and we have energy and we do work that generates money. And like, as long as we’re alive, energy is going to to flow from us and we can use that to generate money, which then makes other things happen in our life. 

 

Jelisha [00:17:34] Totally. 

 

Linzy [00:17:35] Yeah, there’s just that flow of life and money is just part of that flow. 

 

Jelisha [00:17:39] Mm, yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:17:41] So thinking about this, I mean, this links to something else I wanted to talk to you about, which is about how we talk about money and the stories that we tell. So what is something that you’ve really noticed about those stories as you’ve done your money work over the years? What kind of advice would you give people about the way that we talk about money? 

 

Jelisha [00:17:58] I would say it sounds so simple, but like, watch your mouth. Really the language that you use is just as important as learning management skills and systems. Like it’s just as important. And it actually can get in the way of implementing and I think, sticking to those systems and then helping you. And so something as simple as I’m broke. I’m too broke to do that. I can’t afford it. Even if you really feel like you can’t, do not use that language. And so I mean, one of my favorite replacements for I can’t afford it is I’m prioritizing other things right now. I’m prioritizing something else, or that is not a priority right now. And that “right now” is important, too, because it’s just not right now. Not yet. It’s not like a closed door. And so just like realizing, I think I got this, maybe from Denise Duffield, one of her books when I started to really think about language and how I talked about myself and money and how all of my friends did too. And I was constantly hearing that, and I’m I was like in the creative world and have a lot of actors and creative friends and you know, where we all were kind of prideful about like, I’m a struggling artist and, you know, like, this is just supposed to be hard and whatever. But like we would constantly like, I’m broke, oh so broke, or we’re too broke to do that, can’t go here, we can’t go on vacation for more than two days and like just all these things and so like that language, you, the more you say it and the more you hear it, the more you believe it. And so you’ve got to do some reframing around that, and it’s something that you have to be conscious about at first. But it feels different to say, I’m not prioritizing this course right now. I’m prioritizing something else versus I can’t afford it. I’m too broke. 

 

Linzy [00:19:46] Well, and that’s such an empowered way to say it. To say, like, you know, this isn’t a priority for me right now. I’m putting my money somewhere else right now. Because the truth is you are, unless you literally don’t have a dollar. But like most of us in this field, you are putting your money somewhere, whether that’s that you’re putting towards buying good food or something for your kid or you’re saving money instead, you’re doing something with your money. And I think that that phrase acknowledges that. Rather than this just like disempowered kind of like, I don’t have it. Because if you really wanted it, you would have it. You’d find it. You’d take it from something else, or you’d take debt. 

 

Jelisha [00:20:24] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:20:24] But you know, it is also a reflection of what is important to you because we it is amazing what we can find money for. 

 

Jelisha [00:20:31] Oh my gosh. I was just thinking that. All the times my car broke down. 

 

Linzy [00:20:36] Yes,. 

 

Jelisha [00:20:36] I’m like all of this, I was able to figure it out. 

 

Linzy [00:20:39] Found the money? Yes. Whereas like I find, for me, you know, this is a struggle here for me where I know like humans are not logical, right? So this is the lovely thing about us is we make no sense an area where I find I’m selectively broke because that’s what it’s about, right? It’s being selectively broke. Or we’re having a hard time spending money is really what it is. Is I’ll notice like for me, like clothes, I’ll really kind of like drag my feet on, like replacing something like and I had a conversation with my partner, which then my friend was like, I just had the same conversation, where he was like, You need new underwear. Like, What are you doing? And I was like, Yeah, I know. For me, and this is my own stuff, right, there’s some sort of barrier to buying clothes. I’m always kind of trying to like, I’ll do it later. Kind of part of it is I hate clothes. I’m tall, I have big feet. There’s just things that make it hard to buy clothes. But also, it’s just that for some reason in my head, there’s this barrier that makes it feel like hard to prioritize that in my budget. And that’s what the reality is. I’m not prioritizing my budget because I’ll spend $600 a month on therapy. I can find that. That’s no question when I make my budget that I’m going to budget that six hundred. You know, a new pair of underwear, like a set of underwear is maybe like thirty five dollars, right? 

 

Jelisha [00:21:48] Oh, that’s such a great example. 

 

Linzy [00:21:50] And it’s totally illogical. Like, is there anything like that in your world that you can think of that is like hard to spend money on where you feel like you don’t have the money, but it would show up for something else. 

 

Jelisha [00:21:58] Honestly, I don’t want to sound like I’m copying you, but I sooo resonate with what you said about clothes. I hate shopping. I might go shopping like once a year and I’ll like, kind of do bulk. I just don’t enjoy it. I wear a lot of the same stuff. That’s something I definitely struggle with. I mean, jeans, I’ve gained weight like, I’ve gained weight and I’m just like, This is the new Jelisha. I need to buy new jeans and I haven’t done it. 

 

Linzy [00:22:20] I know. Personal shoppers. We need personal shoppers. I think that’s the solution here. So for people who are listening right now who are- maybe this, this is new to them talking about money, thinking about money. They know they want to work on money, but they don’t really know where to start. What would be like some advice that you would give them on, like a nice starting place to start to improve their relationship to money? 

Jelisha [00:22:44] Something that’s really simple and actually I think can be a fun little project is creating what I call passive reminders. And so basically, we’re trying to shift from I’m broke and struggling, making money is hard to how you want to feel and what you will be experiencing once you get that healthier relationship. And so when I say passive reminders, I mean, what’s on your screen of your phone, of your computer, on your desktop? I changed my to a beach and I just moved in to an apartment that is two blocks from the beach, everybody, and I’m freaking thrilled. Literally, I have dreamed of living by the beach, and I put that on my screensaver years ago when I started doing this work, so I had pictures of money like just gold on my phone screensaver. Just find some pictures that show what you want to have, what you will be able to experience, or pictures that when you look at them, it induces a really good feeling. And the beach has always done that for me. And so by seeing these things passively, it makes it seem more realistic and more possible. It’s kind of like what we were saying with the language. If you continue to say I’m broke I’m broke I’m broke, you probably, you know, like, that’s not helping you. And so this is a way of just kind of seeing that over time, all the time, it will become easier. Even like I used to feel a lot of shame, I’ll say, around like wanting to make six figures and just kind of it felt so unrealistic, first of all, but there’s something about- I remember I used to whisper it, like I wouldn’t want to say how much I was making, like even, you know, and I think you know that working with therapists, right? Not wanting to talk about money because it’s rude or whatever. And so there’s something about even like making your password, maybe six seven figures with some other stuff attached to it, whatever. But like, there’s something about like typing that out that it made it easier over time to say it and to own it and to, like, not apologize. I’m like, Yeah, Hell Yes, I want to make seven- however much- I want to make more money. I want to take more vacations. I want to work less, you know, whatever it is. And so like there’s something about setting up some kind of visuals passively where you just encounter them regularly. So we’re mostly interacting with our phone or computer, passwords, those are kind of the three things that I did, and it really made a difference in how I felt about the things that I wanted. But also it just seemed more realistic. I was like, Oh, this is possible alongside doing the other work, right? But it’s an easy start, I think, and it’s fun too. 

 

Linzy [00:25:21] Yeah, it sounds like it’s a way to kind of almost like subliminally get yourself used to wanting things, normalizing your desires. Like, like you said, I feel like so many therapists – I don’t feel like, I know so many therapists have shame around what they want because we’re helpers and we’re told to be helpers. And many of us are women and people of color. And like, we’ve been told that what we want is not important and we’re not supposed to want it. We’re supposed to help. Right. And you know, we’ve gotten into this profession because we have those traits. So what I’m hearing is just like creating an environment that just lets you really own and get used to what you want. It’s OK to want those things and normalizing what you want. And I love that and I love how specific that beach image is because for me, I immediately go to like what I would put on my phone. And it’s very different than yours because beaches, sand, sun – I’m gesturing to my my pale complexion right now, for those who are listening on the podcast, I’m not made for that shit, it doesn’t go well – but for me, it’s like a little cottage, like a cottage office in a backyard. In England, they have these like – I watch lots of gardening shows and people have these gorgeous little gardens. It’s like a whole yard that’s all flowers and then at the back, there’s their perfect little cabin where it’s like their little studio or their office. And like that for me, is it. I’ve wanted that for so long, and that’s the image of me on my phone, and I’m actually in the works of actually having that built. We’re like consulting with architects, like getting plans for, who’s going to do that for us. And that is my thing, right? So it’s so personal. And you know, you and I would take the same money and spend it differently because of what brings joy into our lives. I love how specific that suggestion is. Figure out what, how money can bring joy into your world, specifically. 

 

Jelisha [00:27:01] Yeah, I love that. Yes, yes, yes. 

 

Linzy [00:27:04] So thank you so much, Jelisha. I love talking with you, and I loved working with you as a student. I loved when you coached in my course and you’re always doing the coolest shit. So thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. 

 

Jelisha [00:27:17] Thank you so much, Linzy. I had a ball. 

 

Linzy [00:27:20] And now we got to tell people where to find you. 

 

Jelisha [00:27:22] Yeah, if you’re – I’m assuming – therapists listening, you can find me on savingthesaver. Not savior. Saver. Dot com. Or @savingthesaver on Instagram. So that’s my handle. 

 

Linzy [00:27:34]  And for those who might be interested in getting more into your world, do you have any freebies out there or any offers coming that they can keep their eyes peeled for? 

 

Jelisha [00:27:43] Yeah, actually, if you go on my Instagram right now, I have a freebie I just created that has money leaks that you are probably overlooking in your business. There’s like six big ones that I keep seeing in a lot of the therapist practices that I work with, and I think it’s pretty valuable. And so check it out if you are wondering as you’re doing this work, it’s just nice to look at how you can be bringing more money in and receiving more money that isn’t just tied to getting more clients. So that’s what this freebie is about. 

 

Linzy [00:28:13] Awesome. So those links are in the show notes, and you can check them out to get more into Jelisha world, which I highly recommend you do, that’s a good life choice. And thanks so much again, Jelisha for coming in today. 

 

Jelisha [00:28:23] Thanks. 

 

Linzy [00:28:40] Jelisha shared so, so, so many helpful tips and tricks throughout this episode. I love this image that she has of money flowing and the ease that that brings, that it opens the possibilities of what are the ways that money can also flow to you and needing to be open to receive that flow, as well as being willing to spend money and let go of it. That’s such a beautiful, liberating image. Jelisha is so empowered about money. Something that I notice, reflecting on this episode, is how energizing it is to talk to her just listening to my own energy. I had so much fun recording this episode with her, and I will say that we did make a clothing pact after this episode, since we both identified that that is an area that we both struggle with spending and Jelisha nailed it. She completed the pact. She got all sorts of great clothes, and I kind of sort of nailed it. It’s still a work in progress. Humans, we are interesting creatures. There’s always more work to do around money and everything, really. If you would like more free money content about private practice specifically, check us out on Instagram. You can follow me @moneynutsandbolts. And if you are interested and really digging in and working on your relationship to money and also building a clear system to get money working for you in your private practice, that’s exactly what we do in Money Skills For Therapists. The link to the waitlist is in the show notes. We are going to be raising the price of the course in 2022. We’re raising our fee, like I suggest you all do from time to time. It’s part of a healthy business. So this is your chance to get in at 2021 pricing. You can buy the course now at 2021 pricing, but not start until 2022. So you don’t need to start over the holidays when things are always a little bit chaotic and a little out of routine. You can pay in 2021 if you decide to buy when we open the course doors, and start in 2022. So the way to hear about that is to get on our waitlist. The link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening today. 

 

Erin [00:00:01] We’re just not at that point right now, which is great, and we will get there, but for a foundational place, the financial piece of it is fine. It’s OK right now. It feels really good to think about it that way. 

 

Linzy [00:00:15] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome to today’s episode. Today’s episode of the Money Skills For Therapists podcast is brought to you by my course, Money Skills For Therapists. Surprise, surprise. This is your chance to get on the waitlist to lock in 2021 pricing. We are increasing our price in 2022, as I suggest all therapists and health practitioners do from time to time. And if you’ve been thinking about Money Skills For Therapists, if you’re curious about the course, get on the waitlist now so that when we open the doors with our 2021 pricing, you have a chance to get in. The link is in my bio. This is my step by step course that walks you through my signature framework to take you from money confusion and shame to calm and confidence. I walk you through setting up an actual system that you’ll actually be using to make your private practice work for you, as well as giving you lots of support and mindset work to help you shift your emotional relationship to money. So if you’re interested in the course, get on the waitlist now. The link is in the show notes. 

Linzy [00:01:30] So my guest today is Erin Iwanusa. Erin is a grad of Money Skills For Therapists. She’s a group practice owner, and today we dug into the coaching topic of when do you decide to bring more staff into your group practice? Now, although Erin is a group practice owner and a lot of what we talk about might seem specific to group practice, it absolutely is not. This is a great episode to help you think about how bringing on help, whether as a group practice owner who’s hiring therapists or an administrator, or as a solo practitioner who might be hiring a VA or contracting out some work. How to think about those financial decisions when you’re trading your money for somebody else’s time and freeing up time for the things that only you can do. We get into some CEO mindset pieces of making sure that you are focusing on only the things that you can do. This is a great episode if you find yourself struggling to spend money, but also a great episode if you find yourself really uncomfortable with where you are right now in your practice, if you’re in a growth stage, you feel like you’re like a little bit midair, you’re still putting down the foundation and you’re not sure if this is going to work. This is a great episode in learning how to tolerate those feelings, but also making sure you’re making the strategic moves so that your discomfort is going to pay off. Here’s Erin Iwanusa. 

 

Linzy [00:03:07] So thank you for coming on today, Erin, welcome. 

 

Erin [00:03:10] Thank you. Of course. 

 

Linzy [00:03:12] So Erin, you are a grad of Money Skills For Therapists, going back a few months now. Tell me, if you can take yourself back to that time, what made you decide to join the course? 

 

Erin [00:03:23] I joined- I think I joined November or December of 2020, and I was growing from an individual practitioner into a group practice, and I had already made my first hire- hiring a therapist. And I think I really just kind of wanted that clarity around how do we manage our money in private practice? Am I even just doing it correctly? Because we don’t get any of those courses when we’re in grad school. And so that’s really kind of what inspired me to join the course was to make sure that I was just sort of managing the money correctly and having a sense of money that was coming in, money that was going out, and then how do I navigate a group practice financially as well. 

 

Linzy [00:04:06] Yeah. So you were kind of at this transition point. Like you both wanted to know that you were doing it, but also you were growing. And then coming into what you want to talk about today. You’re still growing. 

 

Erin [00:04:17] Still growing. Yes. So since finishing up the course, I’ve hired another therapist. She’s been with me for a bit now. I have a full time assistant. I took on a grad student intern. We’ve actually just rented another office, a second location. I mean, we’re sort of going to see what happens. One of my therapists doesn’t live in New York City. And so it just sort of made sense to give her her own office space. And so we’re looking to hire a couple more folks out there. So we’re growing both office space as well as numbers of of employees. It feels like a lot. 

 

Linzy [00:04:53] Yes, those decisions, Erin, just so I kind of understand your process. How did you know it was time and how did you decide to make your next hire and get that office space? 

 

Erin [00:05:03] That’s a good question. I love working with younger therapists and providing education and training and support because I think we obviously get a lot of that in grad school. And then you sort of get thrown into the real, the real world, and you’re expected to still learn. But I think there can be more learning opportunities early in our career. And so my sort of vision of the practice was to provide those opportunities to therapists. And so my goal is to really kind of step back from the therapist. And I’ve been doing it for a while and I’m really kind of I’m enjoying the supervision and training and consulting and that sort of side of it. And so ultimately, my goal is to be able to take on that role and have therapists see the clients and work with them. So that was sort of the vision. But you know, as a sole practitioner, we want to have a family. I want to take ample maternity leave. And when we take that time off, it’s just sort of unpaid time where you have to save for it properly. And so maybe it was even a little bit out of my own anxiety, if you will, of ‘I don’t want to not get paid for X amount of time’. And so can I hire people who can kind of keep the practice going while I’m doing some personal things? 

 

Linzy [00:06:24] Yeah, like I’m hearing two sides to that. One is that you really enjoy like the mentorship and consultation, and that’s work that feeds you. And so like kind of maybe moving out of therapy works, which I’m sure also feeds you. But I know I’ve made this switch myself. I actually just shut down my private practice two weeks ago. Sometimes you kind of just grow in different directions and you can’t do it all. So I’m hearing that is kind of part of your professional trajectory, but then also building an income stream for yourself that’s not just “butts and seats” is kind of the term, right? Not just you see clients one on one. 

 

Erin [00:06:53] Exactly. 

 

Linzy [00:06:54] So that’s kind of what has led you to this place of growing this business the way that you are. Tell me about kind of where you are now in terms of decision making and what’s challenging. 

 

Erin [00:07:03] Right now, I know that we’re in a place where my expenses are a little bit higher than I would like them to be because we’re in sort of that funny growth phase. And I know that bringing on a few extra people down the road will mitigate that. But I think part of it, too, is I do all of my own bookkeeping. I actually still, I use your spreadsheet from the course. And I keep seeing that number of, you know, your target operating expenses should be 30 percent, but mine are higher than 30 percent. I think I look today and for the full year it was, I’m at 42 percent. And so that number makes me feel uneasy, right? Like, am I spending too much? And then if I bring on a new hire, of course, that’s- you have to spend money initially to bring them on board. And so maybe it’s also understanding, how do you really know when you’re ready to make that next step? Like, how do you sort of know financially? I recently made- my assistant went from hourly to full time and I thought, you know, and I think I will have enough money as the time goes on, but it’s that worry and it’s that anxiety. Do I have sort of the reserve right now? And especially since summer is often really slow, having that faith that things will pick up in September. But yeah, I think that’s the big thing. How do you know you’re ready to have a new hire? How do you know you’re ready to, financially, to have a new therapist? 

 

Linzy [00:08:37] Yes, right. And I would think about kind of having a new therapist differently from having like a VA or like an H.R. support person or something else you mentioned thinking about. Because they have a very different kind of impact in your business, right? Your VA is also going to help you to bring in more revenue, but not in the way that a therapist would like having a new therapist working for you, they’re going to have some sort of income arrangement with you were basically every time they work an hour, they get some money and you get some money. Where your VA is more of that like foundational fixed expense and they’re kind of helping you run the machine. But they might also have some duties that are about helping you get more money in the door. So that’s I guess my first question to you. Thinking about this full time promotion that you gave to your VA is: does your VA contribute at all to helping more money come in the door? What is their role for you? 

 

Erin [00:09:26] You know, that’s actually- yes, that’s a good question. So I mean, he doesn’t actively seek out potential clients, but he will do sort of all of the onboarding if we get a new referral he sort of links them to the right therapist. He does all the scheduling. He gets them uploaded into Therapy Notes and all that stuff. So he he takes care of all of that administrative onboarding. But that’s actually a really good question. I don’t know. I hadn’t thought about that. Like, what is the money that he’s bringing in into the practice? Because I guess other than that right now…

 

Linzy [00:10:02] Yeah, and that might be fine. But you know, with those full time hours that he has, are all of his hours filled up or are there more tasks that he could be doing that could help him bring a bit more money into your practice? 

 

Erin [00:10:15] There are more tasks that he could do, and I made him full time because he certainly has enough to do. But also very little of it is sort of urgent, like you have to do this now. It’s it’s more things that we can just get done when we need to get them done. Like one of the tasks I gave him this week is I sort of had this giant stack of papers that I have been sitting on literally since grad school. And my goal has been, I want to create, you know, sort of this therapist library, virtual library almost of I need a great example of a safety plan. Go there. I sort of handed that to him and said, create the virtual library. Doesn’t have to be done tomorrow, but it’s also something to do. So I guess that’s a long winded answer to say that he does have hours we could do something, but I don’t even I’m kind of drawing a blank even on what he could do that would bring money into the practice. 

 

Linzy [00:11:05] Yeah, there’s this question, Erin. Like, I think as you’re thinking about growth and we do get to these uncomfortable places, and I’ve been in one many times this year, we’re kind of like, Shit I’m really putting money in right now, and I hope that I get the money back, right. And I think that’s the way to think about is kind of like your return on investment. Right? We’re putting money out in the business with the anticipation that it’s going to help us bring more money in so that we’re like paying for that person or paying for that expense, plus getting extra money on top of it that we could use to then like run the business or pay ourselves more or invest in another way in the business to help the business grow. Right. And so whenever I’m thinking about kind of expanding my team, it’s about like, are they going to be bringing in more money into the door than it’s costing me to have them right? And that doesn’t necessarily mean directly, like I said, like a therapist is very direct. It’s like, they work an hour, they make money for your business. Your VA is not going to be so obvious. But in terms of being at this place you are now where you’ve put out this money, that would be one question I have is how can you make it so that this promotion of your VA also helps to grow your practice? What are the tasks that he could be doing that would make it just so obvious that that extra time he’s putting in is good for your business? 

 

Erin [00:12:18] Right. I’ve thought of it more in terms of the amount of free time that he has given me that I don’t have to do. It’s actually- we were sort of joking the other day that I forget what task he was doing, but I think it was just sort of getting consent forms and order. And he was like, This is a lot. Or organizing insurance information. And I sort of laughed like, Yeah, I used to do this kind of by myself when you started. Thinking about the hours that we put in early on. And so I’ve sort of thought of return on investment of what he has sort of given me personally. And so then what I can do. That frees up my time to make more money for the business. 

 

Linzy [00:12:56] Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that because that is the other kind of more direct is he’s buying back your time. So what are the things that he’s taking off your plate, which means that you can either see a client and and bring that much more money in, or you can be doing the other things in the business that only you can do right, like consulting with your staff, growing the business, being the visionary, appearing on podcasts. There’s all these things that when we run a business, when we’re more like in that CEO role and there are people who are working for us, there’s things that only you can do, right? So that is something that he’s obviously giving you by being full time is giving you the time to do those things that only you can do. So same question then, Erin, but looking at you, now that he’s given you back this time, what can you be doing to help the business be growing in the way you want it to grow? 

 

Erin [00:13:45] I think it’s funny, actually, you said CEO, and that was sort of an unexpected bonus byproduct of your course was I definitely left feeling- it was more than just the financial piece. I really started to understand that shift from therapist to CEO. And I think still a mindset I’m working on. It’s not always, always present, but that was a really nice shift also. And thinking that, as the CEO, yeah, what are your tasks? What are your visions? What do you want to do? I think I like that idea of him buying back my time. I’ve really enjoyed sort of diving into some of those other things that we often don’t get to do. I think, often, this was at least a mindset that I had before group practice is, as a therapist you’re fee for service, you only get paid for the hour that you’re seeing somebody. And any other time, it always just sort of felt like I’m just giving of my time. And even though I sort of knew logically like, no, this is part of the fee. This is part of the work. It felt, I think, so much more draining. And so then I didn’t kind of have that energy to, say, learn more about marketing or do things like be on a podcast, or start a podcast, or work on a blog, or do some writing, work on some trainings that I’ve always wanted to kind of work on, and whether or not I actually give the training right, it’s just kind of getting those ideas out there. So I think really being able to sort of have the energy and the mental space to look at, what do I want my practice to really look like, what is sort of my practice message, if you will, to my community? How do I market? What does marketing look like other than, you know, sitting on an insurance panel and talking to your neighbors in the in your office space? And so I think that’s been really helpful to think about. That’s the time that I’ve gotten back. I can kind of grow in ways that I hadn’t thought of before. 

 

Linzy [00:15:42] Right. Yeah. And I think then, Erin, you know, in terms of this question of getting your return, it’s like doing those things. Because then, as we know, what there is to do and I think you’re doing a lot of those things, but thinking about if you’re noticing this kind of discomfort in yourself and part of it is the summer slowdown, but you’re seeing like, OK, you just outlaid this like extra expense, you’re thinking about maybe bringing on some more therapists. It’s like, are you doing the things that you need to be doing as as the CEO of your practice to make sure that you are getting return on investment and your business is growing in the way that you want it to grow? 

 

Erin [00:16:15] Right. And I think what’s also kind of scary about that is, in order for me to do that, I do have to get rid of clients. And so there’s this funny balance almost of, OK, well, I’m putting a little bit more money out, but I personally am also going to be bringing in a little bit less. And so, that can be sort of a scary number or whether or not it’s actually you see it sort of in the numbers or you just kind of feel it like I am actually bringing in a little bit less money and my expenses are going up with the hope that I will be able to fill my therapist’s case loads and they’ll end up doing all of that work and bringing in that money. But in that sort of funny transition period, it’s a little scary. 

 

Linzy [00:17:00] It is. It is. Yeah, and like a visual for that, that one of my business friends and I talk about is it’s kind of like when you’re, if you’re like an acrobat on the trapeze and it’s like you’ve had this way of doing things, that was the trapeze you were holding onto. But now you’re ready to transition to, in your case, group practice and having it where your therapist, who you’re supporting are the ones who are really generating the revenue for the business. And so you’re having to let go of that trapeze of you being the income generator, you being the one who drove money coming in the door, but you’re not quite at that place yet where your employees are replacing that. And so you’re kind of mid air. 

 

Erin [00:17:38] Yeah, that’s a great image. That’s exactly how it feels right now. 

 

Linzy [00:17:42] It’s not comfortable being mid-air. 

 

Erin [00:17:44] No, it’s it’s not. 

 

Linzy [00:17:46] And I think a lot of therapists and health practitioners, when we do try to make these kinds of transitions- because there’s something very safe about therapy, it’s like especially when you’re an established therapist, like when I was running my practice, it’s like I knew I could be full all the time. So it was just depended on how many sessions a week I wanted to work and how much I wanted to charge, and that was basically a fixed income. Once you’re established, but now you’re moving into this new space where it’s learning, right, and there’s sometimes like a slog that can come with newness. It’s not your natural, comfortable way of being. And there is a gap in income. Yes, in that bit of space. 

 

Erin [00:18:21] Yes, there is. There is. Well, and I will say, I think I am grateful that I have a partner who has a full time job, who has a salary, who has health insurance. And so he and I have talked a lot like worst case scenario, it would be tight, right? But we have his salary, we have his income with that intention of knowing that, you know, over time, my business will grow and will expand. But we have been able when the business was financially – personally, when I was an individual and sort of making more to set aside in savings and do all of that – I have that to lean back on right now, but it also makes me really- I don’t like dipping into it, you know, I’m like, No, that’s my it’s not an emergency yet. That’s my emergency fund. And it’s not. I know it’ll be just fine. But I think even seeing that, like if I need to even dip into it a tiny bit and seeing that number go down just a little bit, it brings up some anxiety. For me, it does. 

 

Linzy [00:19:16] And are these your personal savings you’re talking about or savings in the business? 

 

Erin [00:19:19] Both. 

 

Linzy [00:19:20] Both? 

 

Erin [00:19:20] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:19:21] Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, something to be to be curious about because this this is also part of growth. It’s not linear. That’s it, basically, growth is not linear, especially when you’re doing what you’re doing. So, you know, getting an office for your employee, promoting your your VA. What you’re doing is you’re essentially you’re increasing your fixed business expenses each month. Even though the income hasn’t quite caught up yet. And by increasing those expenses, you’re laying a foundation. There’s supports there. And then there’s like literally a room, right, that your therapist can work in. There’s resources to make your your business really work, but there’s a bit of lag on return, and that’s pretty normal. So my question with this, Erin, is what are you doing or what can you do to make sure you get the return on these investments? What are your key action items that you know need to happen to make this work financially? 

 

Erin [00:20:14] I don’t know if this is quite the answer, but one of one of the things that I think is kind of getting me through is I know that come September, after Labor Day, things really, really pick up. And so I’m thinking about three new hires – three new therapists – and they’ll all start after September, you know, because we’ll be able to actually easily kind of give them a full caseload if they want it. Whereas right now, I think bringing on someone now would be, you know, the cases just aren’t there right now. August is very slow. So that mindset is sort of helping me get there. But actually, though, maybe that does kind of answer your question because I think what I’m doing right now is I’m actually for the first time taking like a mini sabbatical that actually starts in two days and it’s really just a sabbatical. It’s through Labor Day, so it’s just about a month, but it’s really just a sabbatical from seeing clients and instead sort of doing that work of onboarding and marketing and really kind of thinking about kind of the larger vision of the business and thinking about what are those ways that I can actively grow and bring in revenue and bring in clients. So having that time and that space to just be able to do that. 

 

Linzy [00:21:26] Yeah, which is awesome. Like, that’s a huge action step you’ve taken already, like taking that much time away from client time. What I’m hearing and when you’re in your practice, the thing you do need to do, is you need to fill up your clinicians. That’s the business you’ve built. You know, your group practice is based on your clinicians being as full as they want to be, or whatever your agreement with them is, and then bringing on more clinicians as you have more demand. And so if you think about the fact that you’re about to take a month off to focus on that, on your marketing, and I would also think too like coming into September and knowing that you might want to bring on three more therapists and things are very busy. I also wonder what kind of foundational work you and your VA can be doing to just kind of like, be ready. If there’s anything that needs to happen. There might not be. Your systems might already be ready. But is there anything else to kind of like prepare for the September influx? 

 

Erin [00:22:19] I mean, I think that’s been kind of a big thing that he and I have worked on is we have the system in place, but I think it’s just that final step of really solidifying it. I will every so often still get that, you know, that email or that text message of, what are we doing here again? Or how do I talk to this person? And it’s rare, but I think really kind of using this time to solidify, here are all of our protocols, here are all of our procedures, here’s an employee handbook. I think things like that will be really helpful. 

 

Linzy [00:22:51] They are really helpful. So it’s like getting your SOPs in place, your standard operating procedures, so there’s a way that things are done. And even if your VA is not available, or even if your VA stops working with you, somebody else can just pick those up and do those things. Yeah, it’s those systems, Erin, that like your brain power, you and your VA together, building those systems. The word I keep using is foundation because you are, you’re at this stage of really building up the foundation. But once you have that foundation, then it’s just like, just follow the system. Use the marketing systems that you’ve developed. When clients come in, you know exactly where you go. You know exactly how they’re assigned to somebody. You know exactly how they get on their schedule and having that flow in place. When you think about this idea, first of all, does that resonate with you, the idea that you’re in this kind of foundation building place? 

 

Erin [00:23:35] Yes. Yes, absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:23:37] You know, when you think about that, that that’s kind of your project right now. How does that make you feel about the possibility for growth? 

 

Erin [00:23:45] It actually makes me feel a lot better. It sort of takes the pressure off a little bit and it sort of feels like right. We’re not there. We’re just not at that point right now, which is great and fine, and we will get there. But for a foundational place, the financial piece of it is fine. It’s OK right now. It feels really good to think about it that way. 

 

Linzy [00:24:04] Yeah. You are in a different role now. I know you are still also seeing clients and doing that therapy work, but you are now building something much bigger than a one on one practice. So there’s more kind of like stages to that development and more of that work that only you can do. Erin, I’m curious, how much time are you giving to like running the practice and being the CEO of the practice versus seeing clients at this time? 

 

Erin [00:24:25] So I’ve decreased my caseload. I’m now seeing- I’m probably seeing about 10 clients a week. I love seeing clients and that was sort of one of my- my goal in building a group practice was not to stop seeing clients completely. You know, whether that looks like 2 clients, whether that looks like… well probably never, I don’t know if it’ll be up to 20 clients again… but you know, no matter how sort of small it is, I do always want to see clients. I enjoy that work, so I’ve really cut back, I will say, over the course of the summer. Or finding ways to even transition some of my clients to the therapists on my team, knowing if it feels like a good fit. And so far, everyone who has switched to a different therapist has been a good fit and so they stay within the practice, but they’re just not seeing me. So, yeah, I’ve cut it down to about 10 clients and then the rest of the time during the week is spent doing the other stuff, all the other stuff that comes with that. 

 

Linzy [00:25:21] Great. The next thing that I would encourage you to think about is actually running the numbers to understand when you add a therapist to your practice, how much do they cost you and how much could they be potentially bringing in to the practice itself, like after they get paid, what does it mean and understanding those numbers. Do you have clarity on those numbers right now? 

 

Erin [00:25:39] I actually, I don’t. I did it once, I ran those numbers with my accountant. I had just hired my second therapist, and so she hadn’t yet brought in any income. And I know we were still in the positive, which was good. But that is something I actually don’t have a lot of clarity on and often even sort of kind of struggle with how to do that. What do we- this might sound like a silly question, right? But like how what do we count as expenses, right? Or how many expenses are there because I’ve hired you? Or even just kind of getting clarity on, you know, I paid my malpractise insurance yesterday and as you add clinicians, of course it goes up, but how much do I cost right to insure myself versus how much does it cost for us? I don’t have a lot of clarity on that. 

 

Linzy [00:26:25] As a CEO, that would be an excellent use of your time is to take the time – and asking your VA for help on that project because when we do projects like this, we don’t have to do all of it. You can say to your VA, Can you look into that malpractise insurance and see how much does it cost when and I add each clinician? And start to understand what are those kind of variable expenses? And then also what are just like the fixed expenses? So it’s like you’re getting an office for the three new clinicians you’re bringing on. So those three people that cost of the office is kind of split between the three of them. And running those numbers on a spreadsheet and playing with them too. And seeing like, OK, so if my clinicians are seeing 50 percent of their caseload, how much do they bring in? How much do they cost me? Like, what does that mean each month? Because it’s helpful to see that, Erin, because I think with group practice, there can be this, what is like a false belief of more is better. Adding people is definitely profitable, and I’ve definitely worked with group practice owners before – and thankfully I don’t think you’re one of them – who are losing money on group practice, right? And so getting super clear on those numbers is going to help you make those really informed decisions to understand. And what is maybe like the sweet spot in your practice were like, OK, if I get up to six, I have the perfect amount of offices. This is what it costs me when I expand and I get up to seven and I have to add more office space, suddenly it gets more expensive again. Like there might be some some kind of like almost little plateaus like that, that you can notice, but you’re going to get that through playing with your numbers and like really getting real and taking that little bit of time to do the research to understand what are these therapists costing you and what are they bringing into your business? 

 

Erin [00:27:50] It’s really helpful. You know, it makes me think of, this is sort of a slight tangent, but early on in the course, you talked about having sort of that money time or that money date with yourself and scheduling it. And so I made my Friday mornings and it’s funny how quickly that becomes a habit in both sort of a really helpful way, but also I could be using that time more effectively. I’m at a place where I’m just sort of it’s routine, great. Do my money time, OK, move on. And this is sort of really getting me to think about how else I can use that time. Like I already have that time blocked in my schedule. So why not use that for what is the income versus output? So that’s that’s very helpful to think about that and already knowing I have time set aside to do that. So adding that into my money time. 

 

Linzy [00:28:39] Yes, because your money time, you’ve now got the foundational things in place. You’re doing the basic moving around and you set up your system and, you know, kind of what dollars you need to assign to what jobs. But now, as you think about growing, yeah, this is putting on your CEO hat. And thinking about because you want to go somewhere really projecting forward to understanding what would it mean if… dot dot dot. That’s my homework I’m giving you. 

 

Erin [00:29:03] I like that. It’s good homework. It’s very good homework. 

 

Linzy [00:29:07] So, Erin, coming to the end of our podcast recording today, what are you taking away from our conversation? 

 

Erin [00:29:12] I think the big thing I’m taking away is I’m feeling much more grounded and less worried, both in that sort of naming where I am in my growth and kind of building the foundation, and what to expect when we build a foundation. And I think I’m leaving feeling like if we do take time building that foundation, then return on investment right down the road, it’s going to look so much better. I like thinking about the tasks: what can my VA do to make it very clear that he is bringing in money. And then really understanding what does it cost to have an employee and what are they bringing in to the practice? That’s very helpful. 

 

Linzy [00:29:51] Great. Thank you so much, Erin, for joining me today. 

 

Erin [00:29:53] Thank you for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:30:10] In that session with Erin, there are a couple of things that stick out, which are both analogies. One is Erin is at a foundation building place in her practice, and that is where so many of us are in private practice, where we are putting money out. We are putting the things in place that will make the practice work and thrive. But it may not be quite working and thriving yet. That’s where that second analogy comes into play about being mid-air. It can really feel uncomfortable to be in that place. Truly, it is a lot to tolerate. And that is really the emotional side of this piece is tolerating those emotions of being in a little bit of a riskier position, spending money and hoping that that return comes back. And that’s where really making sure that you’re making decisions that will make that return on investment happen are important. But largely it’s just making sure that you’re going to be making decisions that are logical and not emotional decisions because you’re uncomfortable. Sometimes we can make quick, anxious decisions when we’re in these uncomfortable places trying to fix the situation, and we’re really trying to fix the feeling by making financial decisions. But learning to tolerate the feeling, acknowledge the feeling, taking care of yourself within that feeling, can go a long way to make sure that, like Erin, you feel more grounded again and like you can make these decisions from an informed and grounded place. That’s where the other piece comes into play, which was that piece about getting more clarity on our actual numbers. That emotional piece is the being mid-air. But there are actually tangible things that Erin and anybody who’s in this kind of growing, building, is-this-going-to-work place can do, which is start to really get familiar with their numbers and think through, OK, if this plays out this way, what does this mean? If I put in this money here and reasonably give me this return? What would that mean for my business? Really getting grounded in the numbers means that rather than making emotional decisions, you’re making decisions that are strategic and make sense for your business. 

Linzy [00:32:14] To get more free private practice money content, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you are interested, like Erin, in really digging in and building a different relationship with money, the waitlist for Money Skills For Therapists is the place for you to be. I’ve got the link in the show notes. We are going to be raising the price of the course in 2022, as I suggest that all therapists and health practitioners do from time to time –  you need to raise your fees. And this is your chance to get on the waitlist and you’re going to hear about it when we open the course at the end of 2021, so you can lock in 2021 pricing. We’re even going to let you start the course in 2022, so you don’t need to worry about starting it over the holidays because that’s a chaotic time. I want you to get the most out of the course, but you’re going to be able to get it at our 2021 price before we raise the cost of the course, on January 1st. So if you’re curious about the course, you can get on the waitlist through the link in the show notes. Thanks for joining me today. 

Linzy [00:00:03] So if you feel like money is impossible for you, I really encourage you to stop, reflect and understand what’s actually blocking you from developing that positive relationship with money, because without changing that, money is going to continue to feel loaded and you won’t be able to truly get it working for you in your practice and your life, no matter how much money you have. 

 

Linzy [00:00:30] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:01:07] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. So today’s episode – for very good reason – is brought to you by the Getting Unstuck in Your Finances mini training. So often when we’re stuck in moving forward with money, it’s not because of the how of money and what you need to do. It’s because of all the stories and emotions that pop up and get in your way whenever you try to work on money. This mini training helps you to start to shift your relationship with money, which is the foundation that allows you to really get money working for you in your practice and your life. You can check the link in the show notes to get that free mini training. 

 

Linzy [00:01:42] So today’s episode is about the first step of getting started on working on money when money gives you all the bad feelings. So a few episodes ago, I laid out the first practical step that I suggest with working on your finances as a therapist or a health practitioner in private practice. And that was creating clarity and separation, creating that separate bank account, so you have that real clear boundary between your personal money and your business money. If listening to that episode, you were like, Oh gosh, that’s a lot. Or if you’re working on it, but you’re finding it very difficult. This episode addresses the other half of the equation. I’m really big on addressing both the practical, the how-to, the skills, (of course, Money Skills For Therapists) but also addressing the emotional side and the mindset and the stories that are so often the part that’s actually really hard about money. 

 

Linzy [00:02:38] The emotional and mindset aspects of money can really trip us up when it comes to starting to work on our money, continuing to work on our money or feeling good about money, even when money is coming into our life and kind of is working. When we have harmful stories or a whole bunch of emotions associated with money, they get in the way. Today we’re going to dig into what some of those things are, including actual financial trauma, inherited money stories from your family, political and moral beliefs that can get in the way of getting money working for you. And what you can do about them to actually start to work on them and shift these stories that make money so difficult. 

 

Linzy [00:03:21] What I really want you to take away from this podcast episode today, if you take away nothing else, is really understanding that the stories and the emotions that are under the surface when it comes to money really define and interfere with our ability to make money work for us, both in our practices and in our lives. So without identifying those stories that you have and updating them, they will continue to block you from feeling clear and confident about money. And that’s regardless of whether you’re just getting started or if you actually even have a system already set up. Shifting our beliefs around money is essential to really get it working for us, and this is a piece that I see missing so often when it comes to money like I, for instance, never lead with the word budget. You’ll hear me almost never use the word budget and the reason that I don’t use it on my social media or that I don’t talk about it a lot upfront is that for a lot of us, the word budget brings up all these emotions. This like sense of restriction. There’s this shame because maybe we’re not budgeting. There’s so much that comes into that term that’s so loaded that actually really isn’t about budgeting at all, but it’s about all the stories that can surround budgeting and that so many of us carry. And it’s those stories that we’re going to start to talk about today. 

 

Linzy [00:04:33] So the first thing that can really contribute to negative stories and emotions around money is, of course, actual literal trauma. If you grew up in poverty, if you grew up in a family situation where money was there and then suddenly not – and that I find happens with students that I have who have come up in more like upper class families sometimes experience that where sometimes there’s this abundance of money, but then suddenly there’s no money. If you constantly got the message from your parents that money was tight, even if it wasn’t. And this is something I noticed for, like middle class upbringings is sometimes maybe money actually was there, but your parents believed it wasn’t there or told you it wasn’t there. Or if money in your family was tied to being like good or compliant, like there is money in your family but if you receive it, there’s strings attached, there’s expectations, that money can go away. These are all real financial traumas. I mean, especially poverty. Poverty is so clearly a financial trauma. But all of these other things, too, when we’re growing up, we so need that sense of like stability and safety from parents, right? And when our parents either can’t access money, can’t hold onto money and we feel that from them, even if they don’t say it, we know it. You know, kids are little sponges, so we’re going to pick up on that reality. That’s really traumatic for a child to feel that instability and that insecurity. 

 

Linzy [00:05:58] So if what I’m talking about resonates with you, I want to validate that that is real trauma. And I’m talking about, like almost like big T trauma – in the trauma therapy world we kind of talk about big T traumas and little T traumas. Often that is a big T trauma, that is a real trauma that you’ve experienced. And so logically, money is going to feel really loaded and scary and insecure when you’ve had those kinds of experiences growing up. It makes sense that those are the feelings that are going to come up when you try to work on money or improve your relationship with money. 

 

Linzy [00:06:29] Another kind of, you know, story or experience we can have around money is inherented stories. So that’s the lessons that we soaked up from our parents about money. I find that often people were taught something about money from their parents, but it’s often either things that our parents didn’t mean to teach us, or they were teaching us things that weren’t helpful or inaccurate. Right? Often we inherit their kind of bad relationship to money. Their maybe feast or famine relationship to money or their belief that money says something about who you are – good or bad. 

 

Linzy [00:07:04] Often we inherit those stories and we’re carrying them around with us. Even though they’re not stories that we’ve consciously chosen to have, we soak them up as a child and they become ours. So that’s another kind of money story that can have a lot of emotions associated with it that can really interfere with our ability to work on money. 

 

[00:07:22] Next is experiences. This is another kind of trauma of money actually being used to hurt you in your life. So if you’ve experienced any partnership where money was used as a weapon, if you’ve had parents hold money over your head, or even had parents take money away from you, that is going to give you a lot of emotion and baggage around money. Money is going to be triggering. And an example of that and how that can play out, is a therapist who I worked with that I’m going to change some of the details of this story. A therapist who had made money as a child, she was a child actress, so she had actually earned money when she was a kid. And then that money had been put into a bank account for her, you know, which her parents obviously controlled and had access to and her parents came to her and they would tell her that they were taking the money, but frame it as though she was choosing to give them the money. So her parents were really stealing money from her. This was really her money. They had not earned the money. It was her labor. It was her money. She knew that money was there, but her parents would come and say, You know, thank you so much, you’ve helped to pay for this thing for us. And they would take the money without asking her. There was no consent there, and they spent all the money. So by the time she was at the age where she would have been able to make choices with that money, the money was gone. So the way that that ended up looking for her as an adult is she never kept money around. Right. That’s so interesting the way that these things that we experience as a child show up in behaviors that might not be really obvious, but actually are very logical and make a lot of sense. So this particular therapist, she would never keep money in her bank account, which makes sense because she had this trauma of being robbed, basically having money stolen from her so a way that she was trying to keep her safe when she looked into and dug into her money story, she understood that this was a way she was trying to keep herself safe. By not having money in her bank account, it meant that nobody could steal money from her, right? She got to spend her own money, and that was a safety mechanism, right? So although it didn’t seem obvious at first, it made complete sense once she understood and identified that that was the root of that behavior around money. And then when she identified it, she could start to change it. 

 

Linzy [00:09:38] Sometimes our negative mindset and stories and emotions around money are also extensions of other beliefs that aren’t specifically about money, but that dig into other fears that we have or shame that we have. So that can be beliefs like the belief that we’re stupid, not being good enough, being a failure. I know these are very loaded things to talk about. We’re going to move into other territory soon, but these can be really painful stories that we can carry that come out around money. They may not be about money, but for instance, if you know that you have more debt than you want to, if you feel unclear about money and you also inherited the story growing up that you were stupid, you had a family member who told you this or or you develop that belief through experiences that you have, then it’s very logical that not knowing how to manage money now is going to trigger that belief that you’re stupid. And it’s also very logical that you’re going to avoid money because who wants to feel that belief and all of the emotional impacts that it has to feel the shame, right? And feel the judgment on yourself and the not good enough that comes with money when you already have this vulnerability. So sometimes that is really where money is loaded. It is things experiences that weren’t specifically about money, but that trigger those other vulnerabilities that we have. 

 

Linzy [00:10:54] And then the final kind of mindset piece that I see can really interfere with our relationship with money is political or moral beliefs that have given us negative stories about money. Therapists and healers, we are often really sensitive to injustice, and thank goodness, you know, we know that the world that we live in is oppressive and unfair. We know that not everybody gets a fair chance, and so many of us naturally equate making money or having money with being oppressors. Right. We can develop this very black and white story around money. 

 

Linzy [00:11:28] So having yourself identify how your political beliefs have shaped your relationship to money can also be really interesting, because sometimes it’s that we have political or moral beliefs that have given us a black and white perspective. And I’m not saying you have to get rid of those beliefs. I’m not saying you have to believe that capitalism is amazing or that everybody can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I actually, I hope that you don’t believe that, but you can start to nuance those beliefs once you identify them. Because when we have that black and white “money = bad”, basically not having money = good, then even if you make money, you’re going to be doing things unconsciously to get rid of that money, to keep yourself good, right? To not be bad, to not be an oppressor. So those religious beliefs or political beliefs can also really inform our relationship to money.  

 

Linzy [00:12:18] So I just filled out a bunch of heavy negative stuff. You made it through the problem part of our podcast today. Now what I want to tell you is what you can do about it, because the good news is there’s a lot you can do about it. The main thing that you need to start to do is take a bunch of steps back. If you find that whenever you sit down to work on money, you are like overwhelmed. A wall comes down and you can’t think straight. You start to feel yucky and bad and uncomfortable, and you want to go and do everything but that thing. That gives you a really helpful clue. That tells you that there is something very charged here. So I’m a really big fan of curiosity when we come against something charged in our nervous system. 

 

Linzy [00:13:00] So stepping back and starting to be curious about what that is can be so helpful because sometimes it’s something you’re going to know right away. You’re like, Oh, I obviously know why I feel anxious about money. Because money was never there when I was a kid, and I’m scared of finding out that money’s not there. But sometimes it can be really surprising what comes out. So what I encourage you to do is get curious about money. And a really helpful, simple way to do this is do a little bit of reflecting and journaling about money. Journaling can be a really helpful way to do this because it really gets you into that free flow. You’re not going to be censoring yourself. And here are some really simple but effective prompts to help you start to understand what is happening for you around money. 

 

Linzy [00:13:38] The first journal prompt is Money is… Just dot, dot, dot… And just start writing from there. 

 

Linzy [00:13:46] The next one is rich people are… Dot dot dot… That one can really help you uncover maybe some old beliefs that you have about what wealth means. I was really surprised when I did this journal prompt a few years ago when I was doing some of this work to find that I had these beliefs that were really outdated. They didn’t really fit how I understand the world now, but really fit how I thought about the world when I was a teenager, and I just kind of had it updated my understanding of the world from that time. 

 

Linzy [00:14:18] The third journal prompt that I encourage you to use is: Growing up, I learned that money… Dot dot dot… This is where you can start to more specifically unpack those experience that shaped your relationship to money, whether they were things that you actually directly experienced, whether they were stories passed out from your family, whether they were messages that you covertly picked up on, even if they weren’t said, or whether they were actual, literal lessons your parents tried to teach you that maybe have not served you so well. I know one of these for me was the story that working hard is good in itself, which is a very Protestant work ethic thing which makes complete sense for my farming family and the lineage that I have. 

 

Linzy [00:14:56] But what that taught me is that work was the good in itself, and I didn’t actually tie earning money to working hard. And I think a lot of therapists, we have this. So for me, starting to identify and unpack that that made me realize I don’t actually want to work all the time to be good. I would like to work enough that I can earn money to live a good life and then also enjoy my life. That’s actually not the story that I wanted to be living, but it certainly is one that I inherited and that I was living. 

 

Linzy [00:15:23] I really want to encourage you to let yourself be surprised by what comes up when you’re doing these journal prompts. Don’t censor yourself. Just write whatever it is. And if it’s surprising, just keep going and write more until you basically run out of things to write because it is incredible how many stories we can be carrying, even stories that are directly contradictory and how deep they can go. 

 

Linzy [00:15:45] Ultimately, these stories and the emotions that are under the surface absolutely define and interfere with your ability to make money work for you. So without identifying them and updating them through doing this work, you can take these to therapy. You can join Money Skills For Therapists, where we have calls, where we can talk through these beliefs, help you challenge them, give you the coaching to start to shift these beliefs that are getting in your way. 

 

Linzy [00:16:10] Without doing this work, these stories continue to run you no matter how much money you make or how in control you are of your finances. And I want to share a story of another wonderful therapist who I worked with, where this is exactly what was happening for her. So this is a therapist who is really successful. She is seeing about 30 clients a week, working constantly, making a really good fee. She did not have the problem of charging a low fee. She was charging quite a high fee. So making a lot, a lot of money, but she was just running like crazy all the time. It’s like she couldn’t stop and she was making so much money, but she couldn’t even make herself stop and slow down to understand how much money she needed to make. She was just trying to make more and more and more and more money. And this is something that I see a lot. It’s kind of the solution that our brains come up with when we don’t understand money, it’s just like, just make more, just make more, just make more. And like I’ve talked about with some other podcast guests in the past and some episodes coming in the future, you can’t win that game. The more game is unwinnable. 

 

Linzy [00:17:13] So this particular therapist is working so, so, so much. And she couldn’t really figure out what was in the way. She just knew that she just wanted to keep going. But when we slow down and work to identify her stories, she identified that if she stopped and looked at her money, she would have to face that negative story that she had about herself, that she was stupid, which is a story that was passed down from a parent. She would have to face the fact that she was in a bit of a financial mess. She had debts that she didn’t want. She had some messy situations going on that were very expensive. She would have to face that. And ultimately, though, what she would have to face was that story in her head that she was stupid. So she was running away from that. It felt very visceral having the conversation with her to help her identify those beliefs. It felt very visceral that she was literally running away from herself, from that child who feels like she’s stupid, that she carries inside of her. And even though she was making so much money, she didn’t feel any benefit of that. It was bringing no ease into her life because that story was still running her. And that is absolutely true for all of us. 

 

Linzy [00:18:21] It does not matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter if you have a great system. If you have stories in your head that are essentially torturing you or bringing up huge emotions and triggers around money. Having more money is not the solution to that. Stopping, facing yourself, getting curious, starting to identify and make space and shift those stories. That is what actually gets your results. 

 

Linzy [00:18:45] So if you feel like money is impossible for you, I really encourage you to stop, reflect, and understand what’s actually blocking you from developing that positive relationship with money. Because without changing that, money is going to continue to feel loaded and you won’t be able to truly get it working for you in your practice and your life, no matter how much money you have. 

 

[00:19:05] If you would like more money content, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We’re putting out free money content on there all the time. And today’s episode was brought to you by the Getting Unstuck in Your Finances mini training. If what I’ve talked about in this episode resonates with you, if you feel a little bit punch to the gut, I’m sorry. Please go take care of yourself now. But if these stories really resonate and connect. This is so common, so often when we’re stuck in moving forward with money, it’s not because of the how of money, it’s because of all those stories and emotions that pop up whenever we try to work on it. So this free mini training, the Getting Unstuck in Your Finances mini training, helps you start to shift your relationship with money, which is the foundation that is going to allow you to really get money working for you in your practice and your life. The link for it is in the show notes. Please go check it out. It’s a very meaty, little mini training, and it’s going to walk you through the process that I talked about today and then some. Thank you for joining me today.