Arianna [00:00:05] I really see copyrighting and your copy for your business as truly an untapped tool for financial freedom. I see it as an investment in various different ways.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello everyone, this is Linzy. Quick little addendum I’m going to put at the front of this episode. In the intro to this episode, I said We’re in season four of the podcast, but we’re actually in season five, which I think is a sign of having a good time, when you don’t realize that you’ve actually put out 48 podcast episodes already. So this is the start of season five. I’m so glad you’re here. I hope you enjoy today’s episode. Hello and welcome back to season four of the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. It’s nice to have these little breaks between seasons as a more sensitive person who gets sleepy. It’s nice to give myself the space and permission to just not do it for a bit and be able to focus on other things and just breathe. But it’s also really exciting to be starting a new season and knowing that now I have an excuse to talk to awesome people, 12 awesome people, and the next while to share these episodes with you. Before we get into today’s episode, I did want to share a review from Apple podcast. As you know, your reviews mean so much to me, and this review is from Heather’s Joy. They write, Each episode manages to be exactly what I need. Linzy has such a wonderful mix of lived experience and practical solution-focused tips. She doesn’t shy away from the money topics that most of us have never been given the opportunity to explore. Best of all, she’s kind and welcoming, so that embarrassment from lack of knowledge about finances or shame from family of origin and cultural influences are addressed and released while I listen. That’s a lot to get out of a podcast. I can’t wait to take her course. Thank you so much, Heather’s Joy for that review. And if you are enjoying the podcast, do jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It means a lot to hear from you and it also helps other folks find the podcast. So today’s episode, our first episode of Season four, is with Arianna Smith. Arianna Smith is a therapist, she’s a copywriter, and she’s the creator of Courageous Copywriting for Clinicians. She’s all about helping therapists and helpers write words that sound like them to attract their dream clients. I so enjoyed this conversation with Ari today, and I think you’re also going to enjoy it and get a lot out of it. We started by exploring the parallels between our relationship with money and our relationship with copy, how so many of the blocks that we have in one area also block us in the other area as well. We got into how to channel your voice and make copy sound like you, how important it is to do that, but also how copywriting is an untapped tool for financial freedom and success and comfort, how actually working on your copywriting can lead to financial stability and having your needs met. It was a really illuminating conversation. We got a little bit into my blocks around copywriting too, and Ari had some really helpful insights around that. Here is my conversation with Arianna Smith. So Arianna, welcome to the podcast.
Arianna [00:03:49] Thank you. It’s so great to be here.
Linzy [00:03:51] I am excited to have you here. And you know, you and I feel like occupy different spaces in terms of helping therapists. I’m all about numbers, spreadsheets, money, also feelings. You live in like copy and writing. And so I want to explore today kind of the overlap between these things because like, it’s not something that I naturally think overlaps, but I know that you see lots of connections there.
Arianna [00:04:15] Yes. Yeah, I do, I do. There is a lot of overlap between copy and money as far as how therapists might approach it, how they might feel about it, and also like how avoiding copy hurts therapists financially too.
Linzy [00:04:33] So yeah. Yes. Okay. Okay, so let’s get into it.
Arianna [00:04:36] So yeah, we’re going to just go in.
Linzy [00:04:38] Dive in. So I’m curious, from your perspective, when folks are having like money mindset struggles, like when money is hard, how can that also impact their relationship with copy and writing in their practice?
Arianna [00:04:53] Well, and I think maybe also to contextualize where I’m coming from, I am a therapist in private practice, so I am dealing with the day to day aspects of seeing clients, having a budget, working with an accountant. But I’m also a copywriter and a copy coach for therapists as well. So I’m also on this- inhabiting this other sphere of looking at the bigger picture around someone’s business and the words of their business. And I sometimes talk about copy as being the storefront of your business. And so when I kind of lean into the similar mindset issues that folks might have between money and copy- and you can lean around the money stuff because that’s your expert here. But I often find that therapists take kind of two different approaches to copy either complete avoidance or perfectionism.
Linzy [00:05:43] Yes, That’s familiar. Yes.
Arianna [00:05:45] Yeah. So a lot of therapists I see just kind of- and no shame around this. This is a shame-free observation. But a lot of therapists might just kind of put copy on the very, very end of their list and just kind of put their head in the sand and not see that how avoiding that is hurting their business. Much like money, right? Like, oh, there’s money coming in and out, like I can pay my bills and oh, there’s words up on my website. Clients are calling me, like things are okay. I also hear – and you tell me if you hear this with your folks too – I hear this as a as a copy coach. A lot of therapists are like, well, I’m just bad at copywriting. You know, without even actually examining that mindset, which if that’s actually accurate, if they’re actually bad at copywriting. And I’m biased because I think all therapists are good copywriters. And then there’s that other end of the spectrum, which is the perfectionism and overthinking, where there’s this hyper fixation on the copy, so much so that it never gets published. Or there’s constant editing, so you can never actually test it out because you’re changing your headline all the time. And often that perfectionism can lead to feeling frozen and not doing anything. So it’s like there’s this two- they’re kind of like two sides of the same coin. Do you see this for your clients?
Linzy [00:07:04] 100%. And like over time, what I have discerned is that they’re both anxiety, right? They’re both just like different ways of coping when something feels overwhelming or too much or when we have these beliefs, like I can’t handle this, this isn’t who I am, I’m not a copywriter, I’m not a money person. Right? Those are two ways of coping with that stress. Like, one is just like, don’t touch it, pretend it doesn’t exist. Like you wrote your website ten years ago. It’s probably fine. Don’t look at it. What if it’s not fine? And then the other one is like that perfectionism. And I know for me with money, like what I say and I just said this on a call an hour ago with my students, it’s like perfectionism doesn’t get you anywhere with money. Like it’s just not helpful. Right? And even if something is perfect with money, like getting something like that last 5% is so insignificant in terms of like the taxes you’re going to get back or like nobody’s going to give you a gold star because your your books are 100% accurate. Like that just doesn’t exist. And I think it’s the same with copy, right, it’s like if you don’t actually get to the point of doing it or putting it out there because you’re so paralyzed. Perfection, you know- perfect is the enemy of done, right. It just like it stops you from actually doing the actions that are going to make a difference.
Arianna [00:08:14] Well, and what I often say, one of my little soundbites is, it doesn’t have to be perfect. It just has to be you.
Linzy [00:08:21] Yeah.
Arianna [00:08:22] And so how can therapists- how can we change the metric that we measure our copy with? Because if you wanted to be perfect, I mean, then it’s probably going to be have done by a robot, Right. Which Yes. Side note that is where one place that copywriting is going is AI.
Linzy [00:08:40] I am in that space a lot these days. Yes. Yes it.
Arianna [00:08:43] Which I think that copywriting still needs- and like there’s two different schools around that. But like most professional copywriters are like, people need to write. Yeah. And so it’s like, yeah, I love what you’re saying around, like at the root of it is anxiety. And I think sometimes at the root of it for therapists around copy is like, Am I good enough to do this?
Linzy [00:09:04] Yes.
Arianna [00:09:04] Right. Am I enough to do this?
Linzy [00:09:06] Well, and that immediately comes to mind for me, like as we’re talking about this is there’s also this piece I think about like showing up. Right? And like just showing up, right, and like showing up and doing therapy and saying, I’m actually really good at this. And even if I don’t do a perfect session, my skills command $200 an hour, or my skills command, 150 or whatever, you know, whatever you’ve settled on is the number that you need to be well. Just owning that and showing up and owning your skills and the value of your work. Right. And I imagine that there’s a parallel with copy, where it’s just like, just show up and be seen and let people see you. And it’s not perfect, but you’re not perfect, right? And like, you’re going to call in your people who like love you for imperfection. And just like with your sessions as a therapist, it’s like you might have a session where you’re a little bit off because, you know, I’m thinking of example for my kind of life, like because you’re a mom and your kid didn’t sleep and you mention it to your client at the end of like, yeah, I couldn’t sleep. And they’re like, oh, she’s tired. Like, I get tired. And like, you actually being imperfect can be a point of connection with your clients, just like being who you are. Does that make sense, that connection?
Arianna [00:10:07] Well, yeah. And I think also what’s popping up for me around this and I knew there was overlaps around money and copy and like more and more is coming up. And the other thing that’s coming up for me related to this is there’s a lot of conditioning that therapists have gotten systemically professionally around money, who you should serve, what you should charge, and then on the copy side of things, it’s like how you show up, right? You’re supposed to be a blank, blank slate. No self-disclosure. Don’t be unprofessional. Right. And definitely don’t drop an F-bomb on your website. Right. You and I were just talking about that.
Linzy [00:10:48] We were. I’ve dropped many, many, many F-bombs in therapy, like I do on this podcast, like I do when I’m coaching, because that’s also part of who I am. Right? And I’ve even had folks say to me, I remember once I got a midterm course evaluation and it was like, The course is good, but I could do without the swearing. And I was like, I can’t do without the swearing, so. And I mentioned it to a couple of students who are like really engaged and like my people. And they were like, No, we love the swearing, but it’s like, you know, you’re again, you’re you’re an imperfect, specific human and you call in your people when you are yourself and you show up as yourself.
Arianna [00:11:17] Well, and what I say to, you know, my coaches, my copy coaches is like, you know, there is this question of should I use profanity in my copy? and I, I have two schools of it. One is say whatever the fuck you want, right? It’s your business, it’s your private practice. If you cuss in sessions, then you want to accurately represent yourself in your copy because wouldn’t that be so disturbing if you were a client to go to see this website of the therapist and then you go into the session and they’re just fuckity fuck fuck.
Linzy [00:11:49] Swear like a trucker.
Arianna [00:11:49] Yeah, yeah.
Linzy [00:11:51] That would be incongruent, right?
Arianna [00:11:53] And it would be, right, and then I have- and then my strategic brain is almost taking the power away from profanity and just seeing it as any other word, just seeing it as any other word that you could use strategically in your writing.
Linzy [00:12:09] Yes, yes. And I will say to you, like I think this is maybe an aside, but with swearing, I didn’t just swear all the time with clients. It’s like you match their energy, right? Like it’s appropriate. You’re like, you know, you’re going to read the room. There’s a nuance to it. So I probably actually wouldn’t put swear on my website if I think about it, because there are definitely clients who I never swore with because I could just tell that wasn’t how they communicated right. But if somebody swears at me, I’m gonna swear with them, I’m jumping in there.
Arianna [00:12:31] Oh, my gosh.
Linzy [00:12:32] To, like, express ourselves.
Arianna [00:12:33] Well, okay. You just opened the door to a copywriting lesson.
Linzy [00:12:39] Did I?
Arianna [00:12:40] You Did. You’re like, that was totally planned. But I think sometimes when it comes to copywriting, like we- and this goes back to the, like the belief of like I’m bad at copy, I’m not good at copywriting. And I think therapists have- are uniquely set up to be really good copywriters, right? And for one of the reasons that you just shared is like, we’re really good at listening and feeling the energy of our client and matching them where they’re at. And that’s like a number one thing to do in copywriting is using the language that your ideal clients use. And matching what the language that they’re using, in a way. And I also think another reason that therapists are good at copywriting is like, we know how to make a point, right? When you think about copywriting is just conversational words that the job is to help guide them towards working with you if you’re the right fit. It’s just about connection. Just about empathy, it’s just about mirroring where your client’s at in their journey. And like, I don’t know about you, but I just described being a therapist.
Linzy [00:13:56] Yes. Yeah, It’s like that’s already what folks are doing. But, you know, I’m hearing for some folks there is this like story or narrative, though, that, like, they can’t do the copywriting. It’s like – from what I’m hearing – by being good listeners and being able to match our client’s language and like read the room and- already we’re most of our way to being copywriters.
Arianna [00:14:13] Yeah.
Linzy [00:14:14] But there’s definitely like folks do have like sometimes this barrier around the story, like, I’m not good at that. I can’t do that. Therefore, I avoid that. So it might be easier than folks think, is what you’re saying.
Arianna [00:14:25] I think the biggest barrier is the mindset stuff around copywriting, because once you get through that, then it’s just learning a different skill set. Yeah, you know, which I suspect is similar with money, right? When people are like, okay, I’m ready to face this. I’m ready to look at money. And then that’s where you come in and you teach them the skills. I mean literal skills. And then it’s not so scary anymore.
Linzy [00:14:49] Yeah. And I think part of it, too, you know, and I do wonder if this is the process with copy, because I would say I have a huge block around writing and copy. Huge block. Maegan, who you know, you do coaching with Maegan Megginson, and she’s one of my good friends, consistently is telling me to like write more and trying to like help me think about how do I like, get past this block. Because I think similarly, with copy and with money, there can be these huge emotional blocks, these stories, maybe like bad experiences, like, you know, there can be like kind of adjacent trauma related to them. That makes it really hard to hone the skill because you’re so mired in the like, stories and the emotions, and whatever obstacles are in the way for you that it’s like the skills are actually very learnable. But the way that I think about it is like your learning brain is not available when all of that other stuff is happening. Like your thinking brain is not online when you’re overwhelmed.
Arianna [00:15:37] Yeah. And I wonder if there’s like a way to- well, I know part of me is like, what are your blocks? Let’s hear.
Linzy [00:15:49] So I think for me, like blocks around copywriting, there’s a few things. One definitely is a belief that, like, folks don’t really care or want to hear from me. Right. So that’s number one. Which is a very, like, powerful story. Right? Obviously. So I’m just kind of like, well, people don’t really want to know about my story about X, Y, Z, or whatever. Like, I see myself really, I think, as like a teacher and a doer and a lot of like copywriting in terms of, you know, like email newsletters and stuff like you’re supposed to kind of like share of yourself. And I’m like, Nobody cares. And I’m extremely boring. I’m a 38 year old woman with like a toddler who goes to bed early. That is definitely one piece for me. And then another piece I think is, I was a writer when I was younger. I actually wrote poetry as a child and a teenager and into my twenties. And I had I actually had an English teacher who was like the sweetest man who, like when I put together a poetry book, like a compilation of poetry for, you know, my like grade 13 writing class, he was like, When you are a published poet, this is what we call your juvenilia. This is your early work that you do. And like, so kind. He reached out to me like last year over email. He actually found me and was like, I see you’re a social worker. That’s amazing. I found your poetry book in my house because I’m moving so very, you know, like all of this kind of like, support. But I think that when I went through my twenties and I became an activist and I kind of got into those, like, activist circles, I like, disavowed these things. Like, I kind of like put those things aside. This was like kind of self-indulgent or not productive and like, really focused on like social justice and making things happen and like feminism in these, like, very specific ways that was like, that’s self-indulgent. We need to, like, work on things like, I need to like, solve poverty, personally. And that’s kind of like I’ve almost disowned that part of myself. I’d say those are my two.
Arianna [00:17:37] Like the young creative part of you?
Linzy [00:17:39] Yes, Yes.
Arianna [00:17:40] Yeah, Yeah. So of course, copywriting is hard.
Linzy [00:17:44] It is. It is.
Arianna [00:17:45] Yeah. Well, okay, so I hear for you as there’s one around, like this tender, sensitive, creative, young part of you that doesn’t almost feel safe to be seen yet. And that’s the only way you know how to show up and write with your most tender-hearted self.
Linzy [00:18:05] Totally, yes.
Arianna [00:18:06] And then, at the same time, there’s this feeling of like, well, nobody cares anyway, right?
Linzy [00:18:13] Also that. Yes. Like, which by the way, to be clear, Ari, I have much evidence to the contrary for this. Like I once I actually got I got the sweetest email once from a woman named Angel who I don’t know if she listens to the podcast, but she wrote to me. She had seen me at some she had seen me at one of Maegan’s workshops, and she was like, I saw you. And it reminded me that I’ve been meaning to tell you. She said, Your- this email that you wrote about, like grief and growth, you know, in the spring, has been the background on my phone for like four months. So she had like, screenshot it. Like a paragraph of this email that I wrote from a place of grief because I built this tiny house in the backyard, this beautiful raspberry patch I had got destroyed. I was like, surprisingly kind of upset about it. Like it brought up a lot of grief. And so I was talking about how where there’s, you know, where there’s growth, there’s grief. And she told me, like in this email, she’s shown it to her therapist multiple times. She’s shown it to her best friend. She reads it all the time. And it’s like, so there’s evidence that people do care and connect. But of course, it’s hard to get that in past the negative beliefs.
Arianna [00:19:19] I mean, we therapists are so good at discounting the impact that we make on people’s lives, right? Like, so good. And we often don’t see it, right. So I guess I want to speak to what you shared because I think, you know, and not that I’m going to solve all your copywriting problems.
Linzy [00:19:39] No, and that’s not what we’re here for.
Arianna [00:19:40] But I almost wonder, when the whole like, nobody cares feeling. I almost, wonder, can we leverage that to your advantage? You know, because it’s true. No one cares, right? Only half the people are going to read. I don’t know what your email stats are.
Linzy [00:19:55] Pretty good email stats. Try, like 25% sometimes 40. We got a 40% open rate sometimes. Yeah.
Arianna [00:20:03] Yeah, but I think I’m just like that is actually something that I- when I am sending emails to my list, which feel incredibly vulnerable even years later. I’m just like, nobody cares. And I, you know, like no one cares. And those that care will read it like, they’re going on their day. But speaking to like, I was also like a little sensitive, tender-hearted mermaid child of the forest that-
Linzy [00:20:26] I was a tiny poet. Nine year old poet. Yeah.
Arianna [00:20:29] Oh, my gosh. All my stories I used to- I have a twin sister and I was on the top bunk. She was on the bottom bunk. She’d like asked me to tell her stories to help her fall asleep, you know? And so then I naturally couldn’t hear when she fell asleep. And so then I would just keep telling the story until I was like, Sister, are you listening? And then I’d be like, Oh, okay. But and then I always thought as the teenager, I was like, Someday someone’s going to find my journals and publish a memoir. I mean, you know, right, did you think that too?
Linzy [00:21:01] Yeah.
Arianna [00:21:01] But I- really when it comes to copywriting, I really separate out my little tender creative self from copywriting, right? And I find though, that if I nurture that part of me, if I give it attention, then it gives me great energy for my copywriting work. But I’m really mindful to, like, not bring- like, to protect that little, like, tender sensitive-
Linzy [00:21:27] Yes. Like she should not be writing your emails.
Arianna [00:21:29] Yeah, right.
Linzy [00:21:30] Cuz sometimes people are mean. That is true. Like, sometimes people do write back and they’re like, Yeah, unsubscribe me. And I’m like, There’s a button, bro. So not everybody’s going to be kind to your little tender part.
Arianna [00:21:39] No, no. And so but I also have- speaking of perfectionism, I need to get this out there. I have a blog post that I’ve yet to publish that’s like what to do with the haters. Because as you start to be more visible, you are going to get haters. You are going to get people that don’t like what you’re doing, and that gets to be a measure of your visibility and stuff. And so I think.
Linzy [00:22:01] Like you’re successful when you have trolls.
Arianna [00:22:06] Yes.
Linzy [00:22:08] I remind myself about that. Yes.
Arianna [00:22:09] It’s so true. Yeah.
Linzy [00:22:11] That is a helpful, helpful guidance. And I think, you know, to bring it back to to money, it’s the same thing with money, right? It’s like there’s a part of you that might have experienced poverty or like financial abuse. Right. Or like was told when you were eight that you’re dumb and you’ll never do math. And like that part of you, as you say, needs to be cared for and nurtured, but also shouldn’t be the part of you that’s doing your finances. Like that part doesn’t need to do the finances. That part, you know, can be cared for. And then your like, adult functioning brain can be available to like, do the finances and learn QuickBooks or whatever you decide to do. So really, like it’s a both-and, right, like taking care of those feelings and also bringing your cognitive- your adult brain online to do these other tasks.
Arianna [00:22:55] And how can that creative part of you be nourished and help you? I find that that part of me is so helpful at, for example, like seeing connections that I wouldn’t normally see or I have that part pay attention to silly stories, you know, that I could share in my email. Like it’s almost like you get to protect that part and it doesn’t have to be the one that writes your emails or writes your home page. And I think also like circling back to the Nobody Cares. A big question we have to ask when we are writing our copy is, will my client care about this? Right? Because ultimately your copy is about your ideal client. So when I think of this whole like nobody cares, well, it’s like, okay, let’s lower the bar, the perfectionism. But then I also think like, well, who do I want to care about this?
Linzy [00:23:45] Yes, Who are you talking to? Yeah.
Arianna [00:23:47] Who am I talking to? Yeah.
Linzy [00:23:49] So with this, once folks step into like, okay, I am going to, like, take on copywriting. Tell me, like, how does copy actually connect to financial success? Like, where? How can it actually help us with money?
Arianna [00:24:02] Yeah, I really see copywriting in your copy for your business as truly an untapped tool for financial freedom. I see it as an investment that- in various different ways. One of the ways is that kind of like with money when you bury your head. Like when you avoid it, you think that it’s not causing any harm. But when you are avoiding your copy, you are potentially not attracting ideal clients that do want to give money to your business. Give money to you. Right. And also, that takes up a ton of energy. Like avoiding something is very- takes a lot of energy too.
Linzy [00:24:45] Takes bandwidth for sure.
Arianna [00:24:45] And then chances are, I really think that, you know, when you attract ideal clients, you do better clinical work, which is far more enjoyable to you. And happy clients tell more clients. So when you think about it at all, when you think about the shoot, it all starts with the storefront of your business. Who’s walking in your door and are they the right person to walk into your door? So that’s how I see that. When you focus it on the other side of this, when you focus on your copy and you let go of that perfectionism and you do that clarity work of like, who is my ideal client? How can I speak to them in their words? You don’t have to keep tweaking it. You can put it out there. You can write it once and you can watch it work, and then it gets to be like, it’s kind of like when you hire a new employee, you know, you got to put a lot of investment into it in the beginning, but if you train them well, they’ll like go on their own and do their thing. And so that’s where I feel like the financial freedom comes from really well-honed copy is that if you put that upfront energy, then it’s going to continue to bring people in through your door without you even having to think about it.
Linzy [00:25:55] Yeah. And as you say, it’s like bringing the right people means you can do better work. Better work is going to give you more confidence to charge the fee that you really need or want. And then it’s like you are maybe seeing the same amount of clients, but you’re doing work you feel incredible about. Your clients are thrilled. They’re telling their friends and you’re commanding a fee that you really feel good about because you have no doubt in your mind that like you are in your niche and you’re like in your zone of genius as a clinician. And that’s interesting to me because like something that, you know, if we think about the reverse of that for a minute and I’m thinking about one of my students in Money Boss who’s like a super lovely clinician in Hawaii, and she’s looking to switch to private pay, but she has a website that’s based on attracting people for insurance. So she has a website that’s kind of trying to catch everybody. Right. Like it’s old copy from years ago. She’s avoiding looking at it. And so it’s just kind of catching everybody. So she’s working with a whole range of folks, some who are kind of the work she likes to do, some who aren’t. And so something that she realized is, like, in order to actually be able to go private pay, she was going to have to hone on that niche and actually attract people in her niche. Right. Because the truth is, like folks who – where you’re not in your zone of genius and it’s not a great fit – might not be so keen to pay your premium fees. Right. If they’re kind of like meh, the work’s, like, okay, like it helps a little. But I could also talk to my mom. They’re not going to be excited to pay $300 an hour. But people who are like, Oh my God, she just like gets it. And I just got more done with her in one hour than I’ve done with like six months of trying to work on this myself. Are going to be thrilled to pay you whatever your fee is, because you’re changing their life.
Arianna [00:27:26] And that also results in some income stability, too.
Linzy [00:27:30] Yes.
Arianna [00:27:30] Because invested clients is, you know, results that come consistently.
Linzy [00:27:36] Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure.
Arianna [00:27:38] You know, it’s very hard when you have clients come inconsistently because then you’re like, do I hold that spot for them? Oh, my gosh. They canceled like two days before. I’m not going to fill that. Right. And this goes back to who’s the storefront? The copy? Like, who’s coming in the door, right. Are they actually coming in to sit down and, like, stay for a while?
Linzy [00:28:01] Yes.
Arianna [00:28:01] Or are they just browsing? Right. Do you have what they need? Like does your store have what they need? And I think it’s so funny. I want to speak to what you said earlier around our spheres, because you talked about data and spreadsheets. And I actually think there’s a lot more data in copywriting.
Linzy [00:28:20] Oh, for sure.
Arianna [00:28:20] Give it credit, too. And so when I- when you were talking about this coaching client of yours who’s shifting from insurance to private pay, I almost would advise them to look at- get a what’s called voice of customer data.
Linzy [00:28:34] Mm hmm. Yes.
Arianna [00:28:35] Which is- because sometimes I think therapists, we’re like, we got to guess what we’re going to write. And one of my first rules of like compelling copy is like, don’t guess. Research. Your clients have already told you what they want to hear.
Linzy [00:28:50] Yes. Yes.
Arianna [00:28:51] And so, you know, with this person you mentioned, with anyone who’s shifting from insurance to private pay or even just wants to shift to an ideal client. Go back to your data, go back to your consult calls, go back to your notes, go back to just your memory and get that data around, what are they saying? What is the problem? You know, and this goes back to copy as a tool, like an untapped tool for financial freedom. There is someone out there that wants to pay money for a problem that you’re going to solve. Right? But if you’re not putting it on the store front of like, hey, I solve this problem. They’re going to take their financial resources elsewhere.
Linzy [00:29:30] Totally. Yes. And I think about my own clinical notes from when I was practicing. And like, I love words and I’m quite wordy. I would always take such long notes, like, I would take a whole page of notes for every client in my tiny little handwriting. And then when I would type them up, I would often write quotes because I couldn’t let go of a good phrase, right? It’s like somebody says something and you’re like, Oh my God, what a like a concise, beautiful encapsulation of something. And so if I think about it now, if I was going to be recreating my therapy website and launching again, I would have like gold to mine from my notes because I have like specific quotes of exactly how people are talking about, you know, how they were experiencing trauma or dissociation or, you know, complex trauma that I could just mine and create copy that somebody would read and be like, She’s speaking to my soul. That is exactly me.
Arianna [00:30:15] Well, and I also just like, think therapists, like, we love to overcomplicate things, too.
Linzy [00:30:20] Yes, we do.
Arianna [00:30:21] We love to overcomplicate, like, maybe money, copy, if you were to do your website again, yeah, there might be like I think sometimes for therapists, for like, it can’t be that easy.
Linzy [00:30:31] Yes, we make it hard.
Arianna [00:30:32] Like I can just put words that my client said up on my website?
Linzy [00:30:35] Yes, that’s like cheating. That’s too easy. Yeah, totally.
Arianna [00:30:39] But you can. Like it is that simple. I mean, there is strategy to it, right? Like there is thought, like you can’t just put- you just can’t literally put that. But I mean, case in point, I was you know, Linzy, you and I were talking earlier about like the people that help us in our business and I’m like, I think I need to add someone to my team. And I went to this website that for VA’s and it said, “drowning in the details”, and I literally said that this morning. I literally texted my friend. I said, I feel like I’m drowning in the details of my business. And so I was like, I have to call them. I have to set up a consult. They’re inside my brain, right?
Linzy [00:31:14] Yes. They stole thoughts from your brain and put it on their website.
Arianna [00:31:17] Actually, their headline there above the fold said, Overwhelmed period, drowning in details, period. They did literally put clients words and I’m scheduling a consult with that. Of course you can make it that simple, right?
Linzy [00:31:31] Yeah, totally. Yes. And I think that bears repeating like it does not have to be hard. Therapists are excellent listeners and we have to take notes. So if you have notes or even if you just start paying attention for the next week, your clients are going to tell you how they experience their problem, how they want to feel like it’s all going to be there. You just need to sift it and extract it well.
Arianna [00:31:53] And when I teach more in-depth around gathering voice of customer data, which we could do a whole freaking podcast, I’m not sure if one of the things that’s highlighted when- because I share some questions that you can ask to gather data and it is the same things that you ask in session, like one of the best things that you can ask for your clients and for your copy is, Okay, so you tell me you have anxiety. What does that look like?
Linzy [00:32:18] Yes.
Arianna [00:32:19] What does that look like? And that gives you such rich clinical information. It helps you understand what’s happening there. From a copywriting perspective, it’s like, Oh, well, that tells me how I could represent visually what that problem is happening for.
Linzy [00:32:35] Yes, it’s like that thing of like, don’t tell them. Show them.
Arianna [00:32:38] Exactly. Yes. Yeah, show. Don’t tell.
Linzy [00:32:40] Yeah, exactly. So it’s like you don’t want to say, although overwhelmed is a good one that does catch people. But like, you don’t want to just say like, Anxious? You say like, Do you feel an empty feeling in the pit of your stomach? Like, get like, get into that. And like, people are going to be like, oh, yeah, no. Because many people also don’t know that they feel anxious, right? Like sometimes, too, what we are doing in our business is psychoeducation to help people understand, You’re feeling, all of these things. And it’s actually anxiety, right? In my case, it’s like, yes, you have all these things going on and it’s actually a lack of financial skills, which people don’t know. They just know that they’re in pain. Right? And so when you can spell it out, you actually help them understand, Oh, I didn’t realize that I was anxious, but I am anxious and I see that from this website.
Arianna [00:33:20] Well, and it’s so calming, right? Even when you just said that, You just don’t have the financial skills, it’s like, Oh, oh, that’s it. I’m not a terrible person that’s bad with money. Right. And can’t you know-
Linzy [00:33:33] So for folks who are listening and they’re like, okay, I have bought in. I understand. Copy is important. Thank you, Ari and Linzy, what would be tips for them? I feel like we’ve already kind of got a couple but like. What are some tips to get going to write that copy that’s actually going to attract their people?
Arianna [00:33:50] Yeah, we have been kind of weaving in some of my top tips that I would give therapists, and one of those is just getting started. I think one of the things that therapists skip, and we’ve been kind of alluding to this, is really getting clear on where their client is at in their journey. Because often we write ahead to where they’re at. Right? You know, like Linzy, if you came to your audience and you’re like, here’s the thing you need. You need a… What are some accounting terms.
Linzy [00:34:22] And some accounting terms like, yeah, you just need a clear profit and loss on a monthly basis. Yeah, I know, right?
Arianna [00:34:27] I’m getting triggered.
Linzy [00:34:28] And I never say that. I don’t even say the word budget in my in my marketing. People don’t want to hear about budgeting. They would rather like jump off a- out of a helicopter into a volcano than talk about budget. So we- I never lead with budgeting ever. So yeah, you can’t get ahead of your people. Yeah.
Arianna [00:34:42] You can’t get ahead of your people. Right. And I think maybe the equivalent of this in the clinical world is trauma. Right. Like these clinical words, like when I’m working with folks, I’m like, you know, a lot of people, they know what that means just because of like TikTok and all of that. I mean, and like other things, you know, but often they don’t know that they have trauma. Or if they’re having relationship issues, they don’t know what it is. So we have to meet the client where they’re at and speak to them. And once again, this goes back to, we love to make things more complicated than they have to be. Right. But really, we just have to meet clients where they’re at. So if I were to condense this into a simple task, it would be getting clear on where your client is at in their journey. Right. Thinking about what you’re going to say before you say it. In copywriter jargon, that’s messaging. Right. The messaging is what you want to say. And then the copy is how you’re going to say it. I think another tip that is interwoven into our stuff here is the most conversion-happy copy is copy that is conversational and that is free of clinical jargon. Yes. And so a tip that I often have for folks around that is just read your copy out loud, right? You know, it’s like if you need to take a couple breaths to finish the sentence, it’s too fucking long.
Linzy [00:36:02] It’s not conversational.
Arianna [00:36:03] Shorten that. Yes, shorten that. Right. And you can use that in fragments. You can use conversational language and you don’t want to use clinic speak, but you might want to use jargon that indicates you’re an insider with your ideal client, right? Right.
Linzy [00:36:20] Yes. Yes.
Arianna [00:36:21] So like Linzy, like you work with therapists and you would want to signal, which you do, that like, Hey, I’m a therapist too. Let’s use terms around that. Right? So we have that nuance.
Linzy [00:36:34] So that insider language.
Arianna [00:36:35] Versus jargon, like you’re not going to talk about profit and loss because we’re all going to dissociate.
Linzy [00:36:40] Immediately. Everybody will dissociate. Yes. So, yeah, it’s kind of, you know, strategically choosing like what are the terms, I think what are the terms that are going to bring you into connection versus the terms that are going to create like disconnection or overwhelm in your people, which is going to be different depending on who you’re serving.
Arianna [00:36:58] Well, and in a way, like we kind of want to twist the knife a little in our copy. Because pain is a really great motivator. No one’s coming to therapy because life is going great.
Linzy [00:37:07] No, no. It makes for pretty like boring therapy sessions in my experience. Yes. Yes, that’s very true.
Arianna [00:37:15] Like, come on. Are you fighting with anyone in your life? Like, seriously, everything’s going good? Come on. I mean, did you get on like a text war with someone that, you know.
Linzy [00:37:25] Anything.
Arianna [00:37:26] But thinking of that- we’re talking about the overarching, the like what you’re going to say, how you’re going to say it. Another how is the show don’t tell, which we alluded to, not telling, but showing through engaging your reader’s five senses when they have anxiety, what are they feeling? What’s happening in their body? What are they seeing? What are they doing? There’s something I do with my with myself. Speaking of TikTok, it’s you know, I call it like the TikTok method. Where like, Tell me you’re a blank without telling me.
Linzy [00:37:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Arianna [00:37:57] Right.
Linzy [00:37:57] Yeah, I remember that one.
Arianna [00:37:58] You can do that in your copy. Tell me you hate budgeting without telling me you hate budgeting.
Linzy [00:38:02] Yes.
Arianna [00:38:03] Right. And that’s what you’re doing. So you can think about this and you have fun with this. You know, like, tell me you have trauma without telling me you have trauma. How you answer that, that can be some copy, right?
Linzy [00:38:14] That’s a cool prompt.
Arianna [00:38:15] Yeah. So that’s back to the show don’t tell engaging people want to be in the center of the story. And that goes into like, my final tip, which is, you know, really leading with the benefits of your work. Therapists, we love to tell people about the process. You know, I’m an EMDR therapist and I feel like I prophesied, you know. But how many of your clients- I don’t know what modality you use, but like-.
Linzy [00:38:40] EMDR.
Arianna [00:38:40] Yeah, none of my and I use, like, some other modality. None of my clients know that.
Linzy [00:38:48] They don’t know what you’re doing.
Arianna [00:38:49] They just want to know what’s going to be on the other side.
Linzy [00:38:51] Yes. It’s like you’re- they’re there for the transformation not to like, you know, tap their knees or like hold hand buzzers. Like, that’s not the point. That’s just the process.
Arianna [00:39:01] Yeah. So always asking, you know, this- and this loops back in a beautiful way around your concern. If, like, nobody cares, I would say, well, make them care. Make it, you know, like, what benefits? Make them care with the benefits.
Linzy [00:39:16] Yes, yes, yes.
Arianna [00:39:17] On the other side of this, what are they going to experience? What are their emotional benefits? Mental, intellectual, physical, relational like? And I was recently hosting a workshop and one of the attendees was feeling really stuck on how to find the pain points of her ideal clients. And for her, a big light bulb was like, Oh, well, once I listed the benefits that they’re looking for, it became so clear what the pain points were. Right. So like the reverse, if you’re feeling stumped. Start with what your clients want. And then what’s the opposite of that? Right. And show that.
Linzy [00:39:54] That is so good. I hope everybody caught that. Do you have a list to rundown or. I was like, That was so good, Ari. Just sort of make sure people got it.
Arianna [00:40:00] Yeah, I do have a freebie, like a mini guide that basically goes over some of these, you know, and I kind of condense it into clarify, conversational, connect the dots, which is leading with the benefits, captivate, which is using the senses. Right. The show don’t tell. And then concise, which is like what we were talking about with like if you need to take three breaths to finish that sentence. So what we talked about today is like meet your client where they’re at in their journey. Speak to that. Write in a conversational tone. Show don’t tell, using the TikTok method: tell me you’re a blank without telling me you’re blank. And then lead with the benefits. The question is, what’s in it for me? You know, make them care.
Linzy [00:40:46] Awesome. Thank you, Ari. It’s been wonderful talking with you today.
Arianna [00:40:50] It’s been fun.
Linzy [00:40:51] And if folks want to find you, get that. Get that sweet freebie. It’s got lots of alliteration with C’S and we like that. It makes you think about internal family systems. They also have like the C’S of like being in your core self. It’s like where you feel calm, clear, compassionate. It’s like, how are there so many great words that start with C. I don’t know how that happened, but it is true. I mean.
Arianna [00:41:10] I’m an IFS therapist too, and you and I were talking about our parts of ourselves. I was like.
Linzy [00:41:15] Yeah, I am also EMDR and IFS, so you and I have a couple of things in common. So if folks want to find you, get that freebie, Where can they find you on the internet?
Arianna [00:41:26] My website is thecopycove.com.
Linzy [00:41:29] A copy code?
Arianna [00:41:30] Cove.
Linzy [00:41:30] Cove Cove. Like an ocean cove?
Arianna [00:41:33] Yes. Yes. Like a little cozy cove.
Linzy [00:41:37] Got that. copycove.com.
Arianna [00:41:37] Nice. Yeah. Put that the in front of there. Otherwise you’re going to go to a print shop in California.
Linzy [00:41:44] That could also be helpful, but probably not quite what you’re looking for.
Arianna [00:41:48] I’m sure they’re great, but they probably can help you with that. Yes. And then I have freebies. I have a couple live workshops that are coming up. Yeah. So I have a little freebie menu on my website where you can snag all my stuff.
Linzy [00:42:00] Beautiful, beautiful. And we’ll put the link to that in the show notes. So if folks are if you’re listening on your phone or whatever hop of the show notes, click on that link. Get Ari’s freebies. Don’t do not pass go. Go directly there. Get it. You’re going to forget about it. Trust me. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been lovely.
In the conversation with Ari today. It really occurred to me how parallel, you know, copyrighting and money are. And I’m sure there’s many other topics that could also fall into this category, right? Like blocks that we have negative beliefs, emotions, strong reactions that we have, don’t just block us in one area of our life. They can block us in so many other areas as well and block us in so many areas of business. Right. And business growth. And really acknowledging that something is hard and working on the barrier actually makes us available to learn the skills. So I think exactly in the way that I talk about how working through your relationship with money starting to be able to diffuse some of the like intense reactions that you have around it and be able to identify the trauma that is driving you around money so that you’re thinking and learning brain can be available to learn skills that are actually quite learnable. Copywriting is exactly the same. And as we talked about today, you know, I have my own negative stories and experiences that have made it hard for me to do the copywriting that not only I know I have to do, but I want to do right. I want to be able to write more and share more and show up more in that medium, because I know that that medium and you know, Krystal, who works with me and I were just talking about this today. I know that writing is actually a really good medium for me to show up because it’s a place to be thoughtful and peaceful and connect and tell stories. And so, you know, until we work on and identify and can be present with, you know, those parts of us that need, need support and nurturing, you know, in parts work language or to be present with the the reactions and emotions and stories so that we can start to release the power of them. It is hard to do these things. So we need to do both, right? We need to be present with the the emotional side of it so that we can start to learn skills that are learnable. So I just I love how these two things connect so directly. So if you’re interested, definitely do check out Ari. She’s wonderful. And I know she mentioned to me that she does have the next round of her courses coming up soon. She’s got some workshops coming up. She’s got all sorts of stuff. So if you’re excited about her, jump over to her website, get those opt ins and get into her email, because I bet she has a really good email list.
If you are enjoying the podcast, you can also follow me on Instagram, where we share free, emotional and practical money tips at @moneynutsandbolts on Instagram. And like I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, those reviews on Apple Podcasts are so helpful to help how folks find the podcast. And also I’d love to hear what the podcast is doing for you and how it’s landing with you. So please jump over to Apple Podcasts and take one minute to leave me review. I’m going to I’m actually going to make a pledge. My favorite podcast is working it out with Mike Birbiglia, and I’ve never left him a review, even though I love his podcast dearly. So I’m going to go review his podcast right now. And so while I do that, please review my podcast and we’ll just like we’ll just keep putting out that nice podcast review energy into the world. Thanks for listening today.