Meet Nicole McCance

[00:00:00] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.  ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is a returning guest, Nicole McCance, and Nicole is a psychologist turned business coach who helps folks grow their group practices. She grew her own practice to 55 clinicians and multiple seven figures while having toddlers at home and so she knows how to systematize and grow, and that is what we get into today. Nicole lays out the five steps to scaling your practice from the very beginning to the end, the five things to do to move you from being a solo practitioner, into having and retaining clients.

[00:01:26] Nicole is so clear in her thinking.Her podcast is called The Business Savvy Therapist, and you will feel that coming across today. So we dig into those five steps, with lots and lots of interesting perspectives and insights for her along the way about therapy and selling and marketing and making sure that you don’t become the CQA, the Chief Question Answerer, which is a role that probably many folks here can identify with. Here is my conversation with Nicole McCance. So Nicole, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:09] Nicole: So happy to be here. 

[00:02:10] Linzy: Yes, I am excited to have you here. I feel like since we last spoke, I’ve been spending more time in the group practice space. ‘Cause my own group Practice finances course has solidified and expanded, which has been so exciting. So I’m really excited to learn more from you today because this is a world that I’m spending more and more time in, and this is your zone: group practice. This is what you live and breathe.

[00:02:33] Nicole: Totally, yes, specifically helping people like scale their solo to a group or take their group to the next level.

[00:02:38] Linzy: Yes, and so scaling, I wanted to dig in with you today. ‘Cause scaling is something, it’s kinda like a hot buzzword too these days. We know that there’s an advantage to growing your practice beyond yourself, beyond your one-on-one time. so I know that teaching scaling is, this is what you do, this is your bread and butter.

[00:02:56] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:02:56] Linzy: Tell us about scaling. What is your approach to scaling that works well for group practices?

[00:03:01] Nicole: There’s definitely a way to do it because what happens if you do it the wrong way? You’re actually not a CEO, you’re a CQA. A Chief Question Answer, and people listening are probably like, oh my god, that’s me. I did not systemize. So I actually have a five step scaling method that I love to share that got me to seven figures in just two years with toddler twins at home.

[00:03:23] So I’ll say all five steps and then we can dig into like whatever ’cause there’s a, okay, step one, systemize your operations. You see, therapists tend to hire first. oh, just post it on indeed. Like how hard is that? But what happens is nothing is systemized. There’s no manual, and that’s why you become the CQA.

[00:03:40] So first systemize, then hire, which is step two. This is where you build your team after you have all the processes. Then step three, this is where you attract the clients with digital marketing, because I had babies at home. I wanted to leverage off of something that worked while I slept, that the marketing was happening in the background.

[00:04:01] That’s step three, step four, which a lot of people don’t do, so people think, oh, it’s, it’s, they’re obsessed with marketing, but here’s the thing, guys, there’s not your clients yet. Step four is: convert those clients with consult calls and then step five, retain them. That’s key. Otherwise, it’s a leaky bucket. With follow-ups though, this is a specific strategy. Retain with follow-ups.

[00:04:25] Linzy: Okay, so beautiful from beginning to end. So step one is systematize, which I feel like is not a very sexy place to start, which is why people don’t want to start there.

[00:04:33] Nicole: Yes. It’s boring. Super so boring. 

[00:04:35] Linzy: It’s so much funner to hire. What I find too with a lot of group practice owners is. Tell me if this is what you see as typical too. A lot of times folks also start a group practice ’cause their friend that they worked with at the hospital is looking for some part-time work. Like it happens so casually, it’s accidental. Right? And it’s always exciting and fun to be able to bring somebody that you love and respect into what you’ve built, right? And just get them going, but convince me, like why do we need to systemize first? Tell me about this Chief Question Answerer role.

[00:05:04] Nicole: Yeah, well, step one, I’ve worked with about 800 group practice owners. Now 70% are American, and if they fall into that accidentally, a lot of them overpay. That’s the biggest mistake, or they don’t have a contract at all, or it’s not a great contract, and then things fall apart and they’re not protected.

[00:05:24] That’s the biggest thing and that’s actually why I give people all my templates ’cause I’m like, here, I’ve already built the container, just take it. But systemization is basically getting everything out of your head. If it’s in your head, somebody will go to you and ask you that question and I mean everything. And so here’s the thing though, Linzy. I’m a bit of a control freak and so it was really scary to hire and put my reputation in somebody else’s hands who was kind of a stranger that I met yesterday on Indeed, right? So what was really helpful was templates. I templated every single new client email, what to say when they cancel, and that helped my control freak part because it was still my words, it was just my admin cutting and pasting and I could trust somebody cutting and pasting.

[00:06:10] Linzy: Yes, yeah and then you know, the quality ’cause you have set the quality

[00:06:14] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:06:15] Linzy: So I am curious from the systematizing perspective, what is your preferred method of having SOPs? Do you use a tool like Notion or Asana? Do you have a Word doc? What do you do?

[00:06:26] Nicole: Google Drive all day long, so there’s need to haves and nice to haves when you’re a startup and you’re scaling, personally, Asana comes later. I want every penny to be revenue generating. So get Google Suite. You can use Gmail, you can use Google Chat, put everything in the drive. All of the manuals we had, everything was in the drive live. I could see it updated by my admin. Then later when there’s cash flow, I love Asana, but I feel like it’s not something you need to invest in right away. It’s more of a nice to have.

[00:06:54] Linzy: Yeah, and I think that’s a good distinction,because sometimes it’s easy to confuse the tool with the actual activity and the activity I’m hearing you need to do is like, you need to write these things down. And you don’t actually need a fancy tool to write it down. You need a Word document.

[00:07:08] Nicole: Exactly, that’s all. Send somebody a link and put looms, like tons of videos. So it’s really easy and even onboarding. You want to systemize, streamline the onboarding. What do they get trained in? You know, when does supervision happen? Every single thing is streamlined. And that’s how I was able to build a revenue generating group practice that ran without me. Otherwise, it just would be a mess and I’d be exhausted.

[00:07:36] Linzy: Yeah, and I see this chief Question Answerer hat on many of the group practice owners that I know. Sometimes I hear folks talking about how it’s so hard to take a vacation, for instance, because it’s like you’re away and something comes up. The first thing they do is they come to you, and you get that text message that says,hey,I know your way, but just this one thing. And so that’s an interesting observation that you have where it’s well if the information lives in your head, they’re going to have to come to you.

[00:08:00] Nicole: Yes, and I actually suggest the first person you hire be an admin because they’re actually going to do the training eventually when you create the manuals that new therapists will be trained in the Jane app or whatever your practice management software is. They’re doing all that, not you, while you’re on the beach chilling.

[00:08:17] Linzy: And what is your response to folks who are scared or resistant to hire an admin? Because I do find that there’s a certain,I don’t know if it’s a subset of group practice owners, but certain folks find it really scary and hard to think about hiring help that’s not revenue generating, that’s just somebody they’re paying. What do you say to folks who are scared to hire an admin?

[00:08:36] Nicole: So two things. One is, what is your time worth and what is your freedom worth? If you’re going to pay this admin 25 bucks an hour, let’s say, but your hourly rate is 1 75, let’s say. It is a no-brainer, but it is the only way for you to focus on the business when you’re running the business and not in it. I will say this, I have a whole lot of people in my program right now. Those who hire an admin early, it’s a six month program. If they do it at the very beginning, guess what? They grow two times as fast. I track it because there’s two of them. It makes sense. There’s literally two people with the same focus and one other thing too is if you train your admin to do follow-ups, it is a revenue generating position because now those canceled clients are coming in faster, which is bringing in way more money than you’re paying that admin.

[00:09:27] Linzy: It’s so true. There is a revenue generating aspect ’cause I’m also thinking, yeah, you’re retaining folks, but also you’re going to be able to convert them faster. You can be in a session and somebody can get booked in while you’re in that session. Yeah. Okay. So

[00:09:39] Nicole: It’s a mindset shift. It’s a big

[00:09:41] Linzy: really is. It really is and I do find it’s one that is easy for some folks, probably like delegators. It’s easy. I consider myself almost an over delegator,like I’m the opposite of a micromanager sometimes, but for folks who have that belief where it’s like, only I can do this, only I can do this, of getting there, but yeah, you have to start thinking differently.

[00:10:01] Nicole: And it’s about asking for help and that it’s okay to ask for help,

[00:10:03] Linzy: So that’s step one, systematize. Step two is hire.

[00:10:08] Nicole: Yay, here we are. Hire. This is the fun part. I suggest your first therapist. Be a mini me and hire somebody that is very similar to you. I’ll share a quick story. When I was 27, I moved to Russia. I’m a quick start on the Colby. Not sure if you know what that means, but I fell in love, moved to Russia closed my practice, made the biggest mistake. I gave it to somebody who was nothing like me. I’m big energy, very direct and she was not that, guess what? Not one person stayed out of 50 people. I didn’t love the guy anymore. I moved back. I called everybody and I was able to take them back. Thank God, but what a hard lesson. Think about it, when you go to a restaurant, you expect the same vibe, the same energy, the same experience, right? So it can be a shocker when you hire somebody that is nothing like you. So really keep that in mind that whatever makes you unique and why you’re so booked, it’s important to know what that is and then find that, and have that be top of mind in the interview, and then they’ll retain them.

[00:11:15] Linzy: That’s such a good point. ’cause yeah,they’re coming looking for a certain energy and if you can’t offer yourself. It makes sense that you start with being able to offer somebody very similar to you.

[00:11:24] Nicole: Exactly. At least for your first hire, not all your hires for sure. We want to offer all the things to all the people but your very first hire,have it be a mini me.

[00:11:32] Linzy: That makes a lot of sense and with the mini me, I’m curious too, do you find that is also important? Like a similar clinical focus? What is the checklist of how I can tell if somebody is a mini me?

[00:11:41] Nicole: Yeah. So I would say a bit of personality. So are they direct, are they outgoing energy wise, you know, but also yes, focus for sure. So let’s say you do deeper subconscious work like IFS or if you’re more CBT cognitive than that’s a totally different person.

[00:12:00] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. So your first hire is that mini me. What is step three again? Remind me.

[00:12:04] Nicole: Yeah, so step three, here’s the fun part that everybody’s like, fun word marketing because you’re like, okay, but what about the clients? So now we’re going to attract the clients. There’s 16 different marketing strategies you could do. Here’s the thing, if you wanted clients yesterday, what have you got to do? The fastest way to bring in clients is to advertise. You have to pay to play, unfortunately. But if you’re like, I don’t have the effort, and I don’t have the time, then I love Google Ads because it brings in the people, but it only brings in the people if you have a website that can convert, if you don’t, it doesn’t work.

[00:12:38] Linzy: Right.Okay, so this is where you pay to get people in the door. And do you have any suggestions or tips for making sure that your ads are successful? Because this is something where I find sometimes folks get stuck when they’re thinking about things like Google Ads. Especially Google Ads, how can I tell if they’re working? Who should I hire for this?

[00:12:55] Nicole: Yeah, please do not do it yourself. You might as well flush your money right down the toilet, honestly, because if you think about it, a Google ad company takes about two or three weeks to set up the backend. That’s not our industry. You could be spending that two or three weeks on revenue generating things, building your practice, systemizing, hiring.

[00:13:13] The very first thing that’s most important is actually having a good website that converts. What that means is having messaging and certain pictures and calls to action. That should be the first goal for the therapist. So some tips are honestly, get a really good Google Ads company that works with our industry.

[00:13:30] ‘Cause we’re so regulated, there’s so much we can’t do. Be very clear on the keywords, but honestly, just trust them. The biggest thing you want to know is your ROAS, which is your return on ad spend in Toronto, to bring in one client costs about $100, but if you think about it, Linzy, that’s getting them to the website, clicking on book now, booking an appointment, showing up at the consult, booking, like that’s a lot of steps, but typically, how much money does one client bring in and if they stay, let’s say, a whole treatment plan typically you make about four times your investment, which my goodness, that’s a pretty good ROI.

[00:14:08] Linzy: Yeah, that’s very good return and that ROAS, like return on ad spend or ROI in general is I think another mindset shift that folks have to experience when you’re becoming really the financial leader of a business or a group practice specifically is like, yeah, you have to recognize that money going in now will turn into money later and you have to make sure it does turn into money. Which is a new way of thinking about money, I think for a lot of practitioners.

[00:14:32] Nicole: Oh my gosh. I’m just, today I released, The Master Your Money Mindset Masterclass specifically, because it’s like, and I used to be like this too. That spending money felt like a loss, right? Because I may not get it back and that mindset shift is everything. Once you realize the only way to make Think of the biggest conglomerates like real estate. You know, you have to invest in something. Is it scary? Yes, but if you just start really small and you track closely and you work with the right person who knows what they’re doing, there’s a really low chance you fail.

[00:15:06] Linzy: And that’s where I find, too, building up your skills to be with the numbers and being with that information is essential, right? Like you need to trust somebody, but also you need to know what to check to make sure is this working? Does this make sense? Do I want to increase this investment? Do I want to end this investment eventually, right? I think we can’t outsource that responsibility to somebody else in terms of making sure that it’s working. We have to actually be watching that.

[00:15:31] Nicole: There is a shift there and what I have found with being with those numbers every week is that they become much lighter as you get to know them. And you get to spot those things quickly if you’re like. Well, that’s kind of funny. Last week this looked a little different.

[00:15:41] Linzy: What’s happening there? you prevent fires, and when we’re used to running our businesses in these very responsive, crisis oriented ways, this can be something that falls down the list, but it absolutely should not.

[00:15:51] Nicole: Yes.

[00:15:52] Linzy: So step four I’ve marketed now.

[00:15:54] Nicole: Four. So now, okay, I’ve got the client, but now you need to convert them because they’re just a prospect. They’re not a client. I suggest converting clients with consult calls. Offer a 20 minute, not 15. There’s a reason why I’ll get to it in a sec. Free consult call and it’s a sales call, like I actually give people a script ’cause there’s certain things that you can say and your people cannot say and not convert on that call. The reason it’s 20 minutes is the last five minutes are to get their credit card, go over the cancellation policy, and most importantly, book four to six sessions and really get them committed and booked because therapy doesn’t work just with one session

[00:16:34] Linzy: No. No. It doesn’t. So, yeah, being clear that that’s a sales call, tell me more about that. ‘Cause I think sales calls are something that sometimes,the idea of sales can make therapists feel a little sweaty. They’re like, no, I don’t do sales. I help people. How do you talk to your therapist about sales?

[00:16:48] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.

[00:17:08] ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. You know, I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better. Right. So if you see it as serving, taking a stand for this person where other people in their life may not be doing that, and for me, my own therapy has changed my whole life. So I showed up or did show up before I sold my practice with so much conviction that therapy works. It’s not sales. Now I’m just saying it as a business coach because it’s revenue generating and it’s sales and we should feel comfortable, like why is it that every other industry is comfortable with sales selling us stuff that we don’t need, but we literally change lives and we’re not comfortable.

[00:17:52] Linzy: You’re not selling somebody some cheap product that is a knockoff that’s going to break, but you’re selling somebody something of extreme value.

[00:17:58] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:17:59] Linzy: And that’s something that I used to think about sometimes when I would have to psych myself up a little bit about the value of what I was doing, likeI think about those best clients that I had and what was the feedback that they gave me. ] I remember one client that I had years ago, at the end of our work together, she was like, you have changed my life and you’ve changed the life of everybody around me. You’ve changed my husband’s life. You’ve changed my kid’s life. What is the dollar amount on that?

[00:18:20] Nicole: Exactly. No car or nice outfit or even vacation can do that for somebody, but therapy can do that for somebody. So being grounded in that when we’re having these conversations. Yeah, so to me, I’m hearing the word, like your energy showing up or that resonance that you’re showing up with that belief, you know, like psyching yourself up because I find that if, because I work with only group practices, if you have somebody who has a low conversion rate, they’re probably showing up to the call with doubt and then those mirror neurons kick in and all of a sudden. That client feels doubt and doesn’t book. So tapping into that before the call is important.

[00:19:00] Linzy: And I’ve had consult calls myself when I’ve been looking for a therapist where I can feel that the therapist is not totally convinced. Like you feel that you’re so right. Those mirror neurons come on and you’re like, um, I’ll call you back. Whereas before the call I was like, psyched. I was reading their specialty. It’s exactly what I need. I’m like, thank goodness I found this person, but yeah, that energy does really come across. If you are not convinced that you can help somebody, or if you are feeling bad about the prospect of them paying you money,that is going to come across in your voice.

[00:19:28] Nicole: Exactly. You need to value it first.

[00:19:30] Linzy: Yeah, so for conversion, I’m curious, what do you see as a typical conversion rate on a call like that? What is a benchmark that folks should be looking for on those calls?

[00:19:39] Nicole: 70%. Yeah, at least 70. There are some people who say, I think of yourself or when you were in practice, they were close to 90 and great I hired and they’re only 70. With training you can get them up to 80. Now this is on the call with a follow up, which is actually going into step five. You can move that conversion up. But I find couples are lower because they have to get a babysitter to talk to each other.

[00:20:06] Linzy: You have to have two people buy in. There’s extra complexity. So a good benchmark is about 70%. It’s normal that your admin will probably convert less than you at first.

[00:20:15] Nicole: Okay. So your admin’s not doing the consult call. I teach people to remove the bottleneck, remove the admin. The show up rate is higher when people book online and book their own appointment rather than admin. This is proven and so we tested both at my clinic. We actually said, well, let’s try to have an admin do it. And guess what happened? They wanted to talk to the therapist. So now I’m paying an admin Yeah. And having the

[00:20:37] Linzy: Right. Yeah.

[00:20:38] Nicole: So they’re just going to convert higher.

[00:20:40] Linzy: So you’re creating a bottleneck or friction if you’re putting your admin in the way. They just want to talk to the therapist. That’s a great point because I think folks do it both ways, right? So I do hear people where their admin’s doing it, but you’re very strongly suggesting it should be the therapist who does that call.

[00:20:52] Nicole: And test both. I do say a lot of people come into my program, they’re like, well, I’m doing something and I’m like, if it’s working and not broken, then don’t fix it. You know what I mean? But if you’re like, ooh, I’m not sure if it’s working, I would test out your therapist doing it.

[00:21:04] Linzy: Yes, which testing is I think another great mindset shift for business owners. This is something that I found I really had to overcome in myself when I first started building this business, was getting out of any feelings of If it doesn’t go the way you want, that you failed or that it says something about you, I think when we’re sensitive creatures, it’s easy to spiral into whatever little darkness we carry inside, you know, when something goes wrong. But if we think about it as testing where it’s okay, that was helpful information.

[00:21:29] Nicole: Exactly. It’s how we grow.

[00:21:31] Linzy: Yeah, it is such a helpful way to grow your business and I had a coach back in the beginning of this business who was like, it’s all data. It’s all data and that was so helpful when I was first starting just to be like, it’s data. Okay. I made this change in my sales funnel and everything stopped. What great information. Yeah, I get to fix it. So yes. Okay, beautiful. And then number five?

[00:21:49] Nicole: Lastly, follow up exactly. Retain clients. So the key to success is not actually how many new clients you have. This is a big mindset shift that I hope everyone gets. It’s the retention because otherwise you’re constantly like trying to invest, go to the networking, you know, it’s exhausting and costly on Google ads. If you can retain them, which is a long-term value, LTV of the client, you’re golden because now you have stability, but how we actually retain them as follow up and I mean, having your admin send an email every time they no show or cancel when they don’t book on the consult and when they ghost like they’re doing well and then all of a sudden they go on vacation. You never hear from ’em. And that’s just an email. It’s not solicitation, it’s just hey, we’re thinking of you. We noticed you didn’t book. And also was it a good fit? This is a chance where the admin gets to say, hey, and the person might be honest and be like, you know what? It wasn’t a good fit. Okay, great. We’ll move you to somebody

[00:22:47] Linzy: Yeah, and I’m thinking about one of my students who I know did your course, and she does this, I’m sure she learned it from you, where her admin follows up and is like, oh, hey, I noticed you had a first call with this person, or a first appointment, and you didn’t rebook. Was it not a fit? And sometimes it’s such a beautiful opportunity for the client to say, you know what? It wasn’t really a fit like I thought it was going to be, but the vibe wasn’t there. And then you’re like, wonderful. Let’s set you up with this other person. I’m hearing you’re looking for somebody more direct. Great, it’s so good that we know that now. So it’s like you’re actually, what I think for many therapists see sometimes as the end of the road is really just a fork. It’s just an opportunity to send them down another path if you have this in place.

[00:23:23] Nicole: And this is where you need the admin, and where it’s revenue generating. Research says that if you follow up, your sales go up by 20%, and so many people miss this step. It’s the most important.

[00:23:34] Linzy: My dad was a salesperson. When I was growing up, I was not pleased about that as an angsty lefty teenager. I was like, Ugh, sales are terrible. but I’ve come around to a different perspective, and something that my dad firmly believes and talks about is: it’s about going back. You go back again and again. So in our industry, that looks a little different. You can’t just show up at somebody’s house. But for him, like he sold tools and he tells the story of going by this guy’s shop every time he would be in this certain town and the guy would be like, wow, what are you doing here?

[00:24:02] I don’t want your tools. Get out of here. This real curmudgeonly mechanic but on the sixth or seventh time that my dad showed up to be like, hey, just checking to see if you need anything. He’s like, fine. I’ll buy something from you ’cause you won’t go away. Different exchange. We wouldn’t have an exchange like that with our therapeutic clients, but it illustrates a principle, which is if you just remind them that you’re there, put yourself top of mind again, it gives them the opportunity to make a different choice. And it could remind them, yeah, actually I do want to keep seeing that person and we are talking about something hard in therapy and it is easy to avoid, but I should actually keep going back.

[00:24:34] Nicole: Yes, and sometimes you just forget. Yeah. Have you ever really done something consistently, stopped for the summer and then forgotten? And if they would’ve reached out in September, you literally would’ve started again months before. 

[00:24:47] Linzy: Totally, Totally, Yes. Like you are also helping them to get back in a good habit that is serving them. Okay. So helpful. So, great. Thank you Nicole, for laying this all out. There’s so much in this. For folks who are interested in learning more about what you offer, all the help that you give, where can they find you?

[00:25:04] Nicole: If you’re a podcast person, I have a podcast. It’s called The Business Savvy Therapist, where I teach you everything about business. And if you love live events, I do have a weekly live event called How to Build A Seven Figure Group Practice, which is exactly what this is called today. So we go into the nitty and the gritty, and I live, answer your questions.

[00:25:23] Linzy: Amazing. Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Nicole.

[00:25:26] Nicole: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:25:38] Linzy: Something that stuck out to me in my conversation with Nicole is just how many mindset shifts we need to undergo as we move from more of a therapist mentality into a business owner mentality, whether that’s in your own private practice to make it sustainable in a solo practice, or whether you do want to scale into a group practice.

[00:25:57] There are so many ways of thinking that we need to shift around, selling and what it means and systems and getting help. There’s a lot of personal growth that we end up doing in order to be able to grow something that is beyond us, in order to be able to scale. And that’s certainly been my own experience of creating a more scaled business is there has been a lot that I’ve had to shift and change and overcome and identify and grieve and move on from, all of those things, as I have built something that can serve more people than I would’ve been able to just individually one-on-one sitting in an office. Lots of great insights from Nicole today. You can check out all the great things that she does if you are interested in also scaling your group practice.

[00:26:43] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts, and if you are enjoying the podcast, leaving a review is also a really nice way to get more eyes on this podcast. You can click on the link in our show notes. It will take you to a beautiful little page that will give you compatible apps or websites, based on the device that you’re using. So you can leave a review, share what you appreciate about the podcast, maybe share your favorite episode, and that just helps other therapists and health practitioners find us and also benefit from these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.