Colleen Barrows [00:00:00]: 

I think we’ve been leaning on the math for the most part, and it’s wearing on me, and I feel pretty exhausted by that. And I think another thing that’s helped is just reflecting on a few years ago when I was with my daughter more when she was 2, and my husband did work more during that season. And I worked, but not as much as I do now. And financially, we weren’t in the place we are now. But I felt better. I felt more aligned in other ways. And so it’s, I think that’s good information, but it can feel, you know, with the things that we’ve taken on financially, I can feel a little stuck on how to get back there. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:40]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:18]: 

Today’s episode is a coaching episode with money skills for therapist graduate Colleen Barrows. Colleen is a therapist who’s been practicing for 15 years. She focuses on perinatal mental health. And today, Colleen and I dig into this challenge that so many of us face when we have young kids of balancing time with kids with the need to make money with other passion projects. In this case, a blog that Colleen is writing for moms in the early, early days of parenthood. How do you balance all of these things? Things? Today we also talk about breadwinning. Colleen is a breadwinner, so we talk about how that comes into her dynamic and basically tease apart this question of how do you balance all of these competing obligations and passions and values, especially while your kids are really young and you are the primary breadwinner? Here is my coaching conversation with Colleen Barrows. So, Colleen, welcome to the podcast. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:30]: 

Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:32]: 

I am so happy to have you here. It is such a treat to get to see you again after. I don’t know where we are now, like two years. Is that. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:40]: 

It’s been. It’s been about a year, I think a Year. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:42]: 

Okay. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:42]: 

It feels like two. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:43]: 

Apparently a lot has happened in my life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:45]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:46]: 

Okay. So a year after we worked together in Money Skills for Therapists. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:51]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:51]: 

So what do you want to focus on during our time together today? 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:55]: 

Yeah, I think there’s several parts to it, but I think as I’ve thought about it, I think the best way to say it is I’m just, I’m really feeling stuck and trying to figure out how to focus my energy and time right now. I’m feeling since working with you and Money Skills for Therapists, I’m feeling a lot more grounded in my practice, a lot more financially. I do feel more stable in that way. Just feeling awesome. So I’m very grateful for that. I think specifically even before we got on our call, I was doing my profit first allocation so that implementing some of those things has been really helpful. But yeah, I recently started a blog called all the Mama Therapy for Postpartum Women. Pregnant Postpartum. 

Colleen Barrows [00:03:39]: 

That’s primarily the population I work with. But I guess I’m trying to formulate this thought. I’m struggling with where to put my energy because ideally the blog and maybe some other aspects that I would add to the blog such as having some classes kind of that ideally would add some passive income, but as of right now it’s not passive and it’s also not income. I think I’m feeling discouraged with that, but I also feel a lot of energy and passion for it. So I guess I would just love some input on how to think about my time, how to think about the energy that I’m putting into these various things. Because the other aspect is I’m noticing that what I’m wanting the most right now is time, specifically with my 2 year old. My daughter just started kindergarten as we were talking about before we got on. And she is wonderful, but she’s probably neurospicy somewhere in that range and so she requires a lot. 

Colleen Barrows [00:04:47]: 

And so I’m just really craving time with my 2 year old, I guess. And it’s hard to find where to put that and where to. How to prioritize things and how to find. How to make that work. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:59]: 

So that’s a lot to fit into one human life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:02]: 

Yeah, it is. And I think you and I last year talked about how I’m, you know, the primary breadwinner and you know, that’s a whole other aspect that we maybe don’t have time to go into today. But it is, you know, a big part of this is my husband, he did start doing handyman Work on Mondays. So I stay home on Mondays. He does some work. So that is feeling energetically better to have that happening. But the breakup of the income and also our just what our life is looking like is not feeling exactly what I would want right now, so. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:39]: 

Yeah, yeah, because there’s a lot of, like, I’m hearing a lot of pressure there. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:44]: 

Yeah, yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:45]: 

Like there’s the pressure on you as, as the main breadwinner in the household. Yes, like vast, vast majority breadwinner. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:52]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:53]: 

Then there’s, you know, the two year old is only two for so long, you know, and she’s, you know, interesting. There’s stuff going on, you know, and then there’s also, you know, wanting to create this passive income stream. I’m going to put that in hard quotations. Passive income. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:09]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:10]: 

You know, to also, you know, I’m hearing in that too, like a passion to like reach more people. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:14]: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:15]: 

Reach the folks that you love to serve. And that’s a lot to be carrying on your shoulders all at the same time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:21]: 

It is, it is. And I think obviously the hope is that if I could build the blog into something that it would be less on my shoulders, but right now it’s adding a lot. And I guess I’m curious. As I was preparing for this call, I was like, I wonder if I just need some kind of Tetris of scheduling magic. That’s my fantasy, I think, and I don’t think it’s that simple. But it’s like, how do I fit it all in and how do I just Tetris it just right so that I get everything? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:56]: 

And that would be the kind of productivity response. Like if this was a productivity podcast, I would say, sure, you can do it all. Let’s talk about time blocking. Let’s talk about getting up and doing the most important thing first in the morning. And how do you set yourself up for an optimal day in that kind of philosophy? That’s more about optimizing your human life. I’m sure there’s lots of hacks that could help you be more effective. I personally use time blocking. I just started using Cal Newport’s timeblock planner and I do find it’s helpful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:27]: 

It does make me more effective when I think about, okay, what’s already on my schedule today with those blocks of time in between, what are the most important things I can be doing? Just blocking. Like, okay, from this time to this time, I’m doing inbox from 11 to 12. Right. And then from 12 to 1, I’m always gonna take a lunch and a walk, because I need that. Right. And then this is my calls. And this is so certainly some of that is helpful. But also we do only have so much energy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:53]: 

Right. And something that I’m thinking about, as I’m thinking about your situation is your kiddo is two. Two is a lot. And two is also fleeting. You know, all the years are fleeting, but within, you know, three years, your youngest will be in school. Right. So this is also a very specific window. There’s a podcast I listened to a little bit when I was in the kind of like young baby days, the days that you help mothers with called the Longest, Shortest Time. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:18]: 

Are you familiar with that one? 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:20]: 

I’m not, but that’s so true. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:21]: 

Yeah. And like that’s the idea is like those early years, especially like the baby days, but I would say also the toddler days. The days can feel long, but the years fly by. 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:32]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:33]: 

Right. And they’re years that we never get back. Never again will your little one be completely obsessed with you and want you to like play in the sandbox or whatever she’s into. 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:42]: 

Yeah, it’s such a sweet time. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:43]: 

It is a sweet time. You know, and so I guess as I’m thinking about balancing these things, I’m curious, tell me what it is that is out of balance with your time with your 2 year old. What needs to look different? 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:00]: 

I think what I’ve been landing on is just craving that, like one on one time. And so I do think that with my daughter starting school, some of that will be a little bit more organic. I have Mondays with him, which is great. And I was starting to play with the idea of taking Thursday mornings off to also have with him. But I think because my daughter, my eldest, does take so much attention that oftentimes when we’re all together, I end up being pulled away to kind of attend to something with her. And so I think it’s the one on one time with him that I’m really mostly craving. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:40]: 

Sorry, and I may have misgendered. You’re younger there. I think I referred to your younger as a girl as well. So to be clear, older child is a girl, the younger one’s the boy. 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:46]: 

The two year old we’re talking about. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:48]: 

Yeah. So I’m hearing it’s really about that quality connection time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:52]: 

It is, yeah. And I had a lot of that with my daughter when she was this age. And so I think that’s also. I’m feeling just the difference of the kind of time I had with her. Versus the kind of time I’m getting with him. Yeah, yeah.

Linzy Bonham [00:10:05]: 

So I’m hearing Thursday morning is something that you’re playing with the idea for Thursday morning. 

Colleen Barrows [00:10:10]: 

Yes. Yeah, I actually blocked that out for next week to try it out. So I’m gonna see. And then just like anything, if I take that time, then I have to fit clients somewhere else. I have to fit other things, blog time, other places. But yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:26]: 

And thinking about that kind of optimized schedule, Tetris kind of thing, do you have a schedule worked out that helps you balance these different priorities? 

Colleen Barrows [00:10:37]: 

Yes and no. I feel like what mostly happens is I get my client schedule made week by week, and I do have a pretty somewhat set schedule for that. And then I fit in other things around that, whether it’s finances or working on the blog, things like that. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham [00:10:56]: 

So that’s like a regular client schedule or is that a moving client schedule?  

Colleen Barrows [00:11:01]: 

It’s a moving. It’s. It stays roughly within the same kind of hours of the week, though. Okay, but. Okay. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:08]: 

So there’s kind of some blocks there that, you know, are going to be client hours. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:11]: 

Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. But I find that if I get a cancellation or, you know, just have an open hour, that’s when I’m like, okay, I’m going to do my best to fill in the blank. Do 10 things.

Linzy Bonham [00:11:22]: 

Yes.

Colleen Barrows [00:11:22]: 

With that one hour. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:24]: 

Yes, yes. Yeah. Because thinking about the number side, I know that your income is essential for your household. It’s not supplementary. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:32]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:33]: 

How many clients a week do you need to see to be able to bring home the base money to keep your household running? 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:40]: 

I’ve been doing roughly 20 to 22, depending on the week. That’s more than. Honestly, I would like to see. But that is quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. But that’s what I need right now. Some weeks are 18, 17. 18. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:56]: 

But. And I think that that feels a little better, but yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:01]: 

Okay. Yeah. So 20 to 22. It is a stretch. It’s what you’ve been doing, but 18 is nicer. Yeah. Do you know what your sweet spot number would actually be? Just as a clinician, what would be your ideal amount of sessions? 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:13]: 

I mean, in a perfect world, 16 to 18, probably. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:18]: 

Okay. So a little lower than you are now, but not massively lower. Not like half. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:22]: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:23]: 

So that’s good. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:24]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:25]: 

Because, you know, the piece that I’m thinking about too, as we’re thinking about balancing these different demands on your time, priorities, values. Right. Because obviously parenting, family is a value that you have you want to have that one on one time with your son? I’m hearing the blog, there is hope there for some passive income. So there’s some business strategy that you’re hoping will come from that. But I’m also hearing that there’s passion for it. Right. Like you have spark for it, which also kind of has its own life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:55]: 

Yeah, yeah. It’s a creative outlet, which is a big part of me. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:01]: 

So that’s also going to be nurturing you in kind of a different way. But then there’s also this need for you to make money, the household money. Right. This is not a couple session. Obviously your husband is not here and we’re not going to get too deep into anything. But it does make me curious about in terms of your energy, have you and your husband thought about how much he would need to be working for you to be able to start to decrease your client load a little bit? Do you have a sense of what that math will look like? 

Colleen Barrows [00:13:31]: 

To be honest, like, he and I have not thought together about that, but I have done some thinking about that. And part of the catch 22 here is that I do make more per hour. And so it just has made sense for me to increase my hours as far as financially, but time wise, not so much. But I think that is a conversation that I’ve been wanting to have with him is just, for example, if I’m not working Thursday mornings, maybe he could take on some hours. That would balance that out a little bit. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:01]: 

Yeah. Because having an actual sense of that math would be helpful because then we can actually start to understand. Okay, so if as a couple you make a goal of like you’d eventually like to get you working 18 sessions a week because that’s going to give you more energy to be present with your children. It’s going to give you time and energy to focus on the blog in a fresher way. Yeah. How many hours or how many jobs, however it’s going to work, would your husband have to take on to replace this 2 to 4 client income that we’re talking about here? We know that it’s going to be more hours than you’re going to work. You are professional offering professional services. We are very lucky to be in a field where we can command a high hourly amount more than most professions. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:41]: 

But also we can’t work 40 hours a week doing what we do. So there’s a trade off there. Right. It’s like we might be able to charge $250 or $300 for what we do even. But we can’t work 40 hours a week. You know, we’re going to cap out at 20, 25. 

Colleen Barrows [00:14:56]: 

Yep. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:57]: 

Your husband is going to be able to charge less per job or less per hour, but he’s going to be able to work more hours without becoming grizzled and burnt out. Do you have a sense right now of what that math could look like? Like, what does your husband get paid for, say like a morning of handyman work? 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:14]: 

He has been charging. I’m trying to remember what rate he just started out. So I think he’s starting a little on the low side. Maybe 70 an hour. So. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:25]: 

Which is not nothing. 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:26]: 

Yeah, it’s not nothing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:27]: 

Yeah, we, we had a handyman work with us last summer helping us build out backyard, a bunch of garden beds and stuff like that. Kind of like a generalist. And he was only $50 an hour. So 70 is. 70 is good. So it’s like if your husband can command $70 an hour and you’re saying that’s kind of low for your area, is he starting on the lower end. 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:47]: 

Of what’s normal from people he’s talked to? Yeah, it seems that that’s at least average to low. Yeah. What is your hourly rate right now? I’m about 190. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:58]: 

So it’s almost like three to one. The math is not quite perfect, but basically he would have to work three hours to replace one of your sessions. So for you to not see two clients, it’s kind of like a day of work for him. Like a six hour day. 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:12]: 

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:14]: 

What do you notice thinking about that math? 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:15]: 

I notice a mix. Like again, it feels a little stuck because it’s. Part of me feels like, well, I should just work those two hours. The logical part of me feels like that doesn’t quite add up. But the energetics of him working this one day a week and just feeling him bringing in some income has felt really good. And so I could imagine a world in which him working another day, day and a half or so would make a big difference on. On our finances in part, but also just on the. How I feel, which I’m sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:53]: 

On your relationship. 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:54]: 

Yeah. And on our relationship. Yeah. And just the pressure. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:57]: 

It’s tempting in relationships when one partner is like professionalized and can charge a lot per hour and the other can’t to kind of go all or nothing on both of them. You know, I’ve seen, I’ve seen couples do this and you know, or one, one Partner is like a lawyer. Right. And the other one can get like a decent low to mid level corporate job, but is never going to make what a lawyer makes. So the lawyer works more and more and more and the other one does more of like the home building, caretaking. And depending on who you are as people, that might be a perfect fit. But if it’s not in energetic alignment with what actually makes you happy, and if it doesn’t foster a sense of equity in the relationship, then it’s almost like a little bit of a. I’m not sure quite how to say it, but we are almost like oversimplifying the situation. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:45]: 

You’re not just dollars per hour. 

Colleen Barrows [00:17:47]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:47]: 

You’re both humans who have emotions and have finite capacity and also have a relationship between the two of you. And both need to be showing up and contributing to your family in different ways. 

Colleen Barrows [00:17:58]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:59]: 

So I can see by the math. By the math, it’s like, oh, you should just work all the time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:03]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:03]: 

But as a human, that’s a terrible idea. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:05]: 

Yes. And I think we’ve been leaning on the math for the most part and it’s wearing on me and I feel pretty exhausted by that. And I think another thing that’s helped is just reflecting on a few years ago when I was with my daughter more when she was 2, and my husband did work more during that season. And I worked, but not as much as I do now. And financially we weren’t in the place we are now, but I felt better. I felt more aligned in other ways. And so it’s. I think that’s good information, but it can feel with the things that we’ve taken on financially, I can feel a little stuck on how to get back there. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:45]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:46]: 

Yeah. One thing that occurs to me as we’re talking about this in your family and the dynamics and time together, kids growing up is what if money is not the most important thing? And I’m curious if that’s true. If money is not actually the most important thing, what is the most important thing? 

Colleen Barrows [00:19:03]: 

Yeah. And that’s never been my focus, but I think with bills, it’s like there’s just things that I can’t avoid. And so I do really value time and time with my kids and time with the family and even my creative self, my husband’s creative self, he’s also a creative person. So I think those are the things that we’ve valued. But with taking on a mortgage and having two kids that it’s so easy to get misaligned with the focus. Just has to be on bringing income. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:40]: 

Yes. 

Colleen Barrows [00:19:41]: 

Yes. Yeah. It’s a stuck place, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:45]: 

Yeah. Yeah, it is a stuck place. And it’s a place that I see a lot of us get to. I think too, now that we tend to have families later in life. I had my son shortly before I turned 35. My partner was almost 40 at that time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:01]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:01]: 

So it’s like you’re. We’re also kind of coming into some of our peak earning years professionally when we’re now in these new baby days. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:07]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:08]: 

Which is not a great combo. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:09]: 

Yeah. And that’s true because of course, professionally. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:11]: 

We want to show up and like make the money that we’ve built the career capital to be able to get. And yet we have these little people who need us. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:18]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:19]: 

And are like growing up by the day, you know, I think there’s a core tension there. And I’m curious, like, when you think about that, what do you notice thinking about these kind of two things in your life, overlapping, coinciding? 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:32]: 

Yeah. It just feels very true. I mean, that’s true of me too. I think I was 36 when my daughter was born. So, yeah, it feels true. And I’m not sure what to do with that. Exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:46]: 

Yes. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:46]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:48]: 

So thinking about what to do with that, then I want to. I want to zoom out on your life a little bit. I want to zoom out like a lot. Let’s say you’re 85 years old. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:58]: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:59]: 

Okay. And you’re looking back at your life. You’re reflecting on the choices that you’ve made. You know, your kids are grown. They probably have their own kids at this time. Maybe they live in the same city as you. Maybe they’ve moved far away. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:13]: 

When you’re looking back at this time in your life 45 years from now, what will be important? What are you gonna be noticing? 

Colleen Barrows [00:21:26]: 

I feel really tender as you said that. Like, almost tearful. Just, I mean, thinking about my kids. Right. Just like that. Both of them. But particularly my 2 year old, just, you know, the season before he starts school and where. Yeah, the time with him just feels really important. 

Colleen Barrows [00:21:43]: 

And with my daughter, like, she has a lot of big needs and pouring into our home and into them, I think is. Feels like the most important. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:53]: 

And if that was the most important thing, what would look different right now about the way you’re structuring your time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:22:01]: 

I’m struggling with. Exactly. You know, I think following that thought that I’ve had about taking Thursdays off, like, I think that feels like a starting point. Or Thursday mornings, at least for now. Maybe the whole day at some point. Point. But I think having some protected time, where it feels like it’s so easy for time to get swallowed up by a lot of different things. And so having some protected time that is intentional and special with my son, with my daughter, at other times of the day. 

Colleen Barrows [00:22:32]: 

So aside from thinking about blocks of time, I’m not exactly sure what needs to change, but I think that’s a good starting point. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:41]: 

Yeah. Because I am thinking too about the kind of quality over quantity aspect too, where there is something to be said for quality and just kind of being. Or, sorry, quantity and just kind of being around and available. And that has its benefits, but also the quality, like, when we really could be intentional about having time with our kids. And, like, this is our special morning together. What are we gonna do? What are our special things we do together on Thursday morning? This is our, you know, mommy kiddo time together. That has a real impact on our kids. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:10]: 

And also I think for. I’m thinking for him too. And you have this on Mondays, and this could be something that you have to play on Mondays too. But it’s just knowing, like, Mondays is mummy day. We do these fun things together, you know, this is our special stuff that we do. Just us. Those are the resources kids call on later in therapy, you know? You know, to counter the other things that have been challenging in life is having that secure, attached relationship with their parents. And we don’t actually have to be around every day, all day to do that. 

Colleen Barrows [00:23:37]: 

Yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:39]: 

In fact, I would say some, like, stay at home parents who I can think of from my own childhood friends, parents who stayed at home didn’t actually have a better relationship with their kids than my mom did with me because they weren’t in balance. Right. If they were, like, resentful and had, like, put dreams aside to be home, then that wasn’t necessarily great energy they were bringing to their parenting relationship. Right. Like, I think we all have our own balance to strike. So it also makes me curious for you, as we’re thinking about these time blocks, what is that balance for you right now, thinking about your kiddos? You’ve got two. You want to have some individual time with each of them. What would your schedule look like if you were making sure that you got in that quality time with them that you want? 

Colleen Barrows [00:24:20]: 

I mean, I don’t think it’s so far away from what I’m currently doing, because I agree with you, there are times where I. I think I don’t necessarily want to be home with them all the time either. I enjoy the work that I do. I get a lot of meaning out of it, but I just want to do a little less of it and feel a little more well rounded. So, yeah, I do think that bringing intentionality and not letting Mondays be swallowed by tasks, it’s so easy for me to kind of just be in catch up mode and cleaning mode and maybe trying to have that intentionality around the time that I do already have built in and maybe planning to try some other time as well. I think that’s what I’m struck with, is just needing to not let it. It’s so easy for it to disappear into cleaning land or running errands land or something else like that. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:11]: 

I’m hearing you’re spending a lot of your time doing what in ifs language would be managing. You’re doing a lot of managing work. Right. Like you’re running a business, you’re managing household finances. You’re bringing the money, and then when you’re home, you. There’s still this managing mode of like cleaning errands, taking care of tasks. 

Colleen Barrows [00:25:31]: 

Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s a part of the conversation I need to have with my husband. And we have had ongoing. But I do still feel like the house manager. Absolutely. And the one holding all of that pressure too. And I can, you know, I feel the energy that my resentment, you know, it takes a lot of energy to be resentful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:49]: 

Yes, it does. 

Colleen Barrows [00:25:50]: 

And so, you know, I think there’s some things in that world that ideally I could shift my focus when I do have time with the kids, because I do have that time, but it’s often taken up by the managing of the household, I think. Often. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:06]: 

Yeah. Because as I’m looking, you know, hearing where you are now and where you want to be in terms of your kids, I feel like in terms of the time with your kids, you’re only at like a tweak place. Just need to tweak a little. It’s like, you know, add Thursday mornings into the mix maybe, or maybe Mondays adding some more intentional stuff that you do to get out of the house so that manager part of you can’t take over. 

Colleen Barrows [00:26:27]: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:28]: 

You know, having like a park that you go to or you always go to a certain bakery to have a little, you know, date, whatever that is. Right. So I’m hearing that’s all very tweakable, but in the broader context, with the stuckness, I am really wondering about the Balance with your husband and how much that is contributing to, like, a stuck feeling. Because it just seems overwhelming. The amount that you’re carrying is overwhelming. And feeling stuck is a very natural extension to overwhelm. 

Colleen Barrows [00:26:54]: 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s very true. I think that contributes a lot to the feeling I hold in my body is just like, so much falls on me. And that’s a conversation we have had and need to continue to have. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:08]: 

But yeah, because I would also say too, as you’re thinking about the household, if being the household manager is not actually something that he’s naturally skilled at, if that’s not something that he’s good at, maybe it’s not something that actually he likes. There are some folks, some men who stay home and women who love being the household manager, they’re like, I made this amazing dinner. I found this really cool cleaning thing. Some folks thrive in that role. I’m not getting that vibe in terms of taking care of that part of your life. So as I’m thinking about just all of the things that need to be taken care of your life. If your husband doesn’t have the proclivity. 

Colleen Barrows [00:27:45]: 

Is that the word, proclivity? 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:47]: 

Yeah, yeah, proclivity. Thank you. To be the household manager, then he should probably be contributing more to the household in the ways that. That he can show up, which is earning some more money in this handyman work, if that’s something he’s naturally skilled at. Right. Because what I’m thinking too, is if you have some more money coming in from his side, also, maybe a cleaner comes to your house on Mondays and you and your son leave. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:08]: 

Yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:09]: 

Like when we have money coming into the household from the things that we’re naturally skilled at, we can turn that money into services from other folks who love cleaning. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:18]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:19]: 

Right. And so I don’t even know if you really should be the person cleaning your house. You know, compared to your skills and the other things like that, you can get paid good money for, you know, get paid $190 an hour to support somebody in their perinatal journey, which would cover a cleaner doing your house once a week or maybe even more. I’m not sure what the going rate. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:39]: 

Is where you are. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:41]: 

Right. So I’m also thinking it seems to me like the energy money balance is off in your relationship. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:51]: 

Yeah, I think so. And even hearing you talk about the cleaner, I feel a sense of relief and like, yeah, we did do that once a month for a time, and that cleaner is not available anymore. But I do think that that is a place, one of maybe many that we need to invest, free up some time with, spending money on that. Because time is really what I’m craving, and I’m feeling resentful that I don’t get enough of it to spend the way that I want. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:19]: 

Yes. Because right now, your time is being prioritized into turning that into income. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:24]: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:26]: 

And that’s where the lion’s share of your energy is going to. Which, you know, on one hand is wonderful that you’re able to earn a lot for your time, but also your time is part of your one and only human life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:36]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:37]: 

So I’m hearing there’s other things that are calling for your time and energy. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:41]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:41]: 

Beyond just earning money for your household. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:44]: 

Yeah. I think that feels good to lean into that and think about how to have more of that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:49]: 

As we’re coming towards the end of our time. What do you see as your next steps coming out of this conversation? 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:54]: 

I do think, continuing to tweak some of the time with the kiddos and the intentionality of that, I think I’m struck by just needing to be more intentional with how I am spending the time that I do have with them. But also, there has been a growing need for this conversation with my husband to really sit down and look at the finances, look at how time is spent, and how maybe we can make some changes in our household. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:22]: 

So having that conversation. And I would really encourage you to look at the numbers to look at, like, okay, I want to get to a point where you’re working two full days a week, and that’ll mean you’re earning this much, which means we can replace this part of my income. And also, I will just reflect to you, early parenthood is a very expensive time of life. Kids just need so much from us. They need so much of our time. And there’s other expenses that come up as well, but primarily it’s just that kind of childcare piece of, like, is one of you with a child? Are you paying somebody else for childcare? So this is gonna be a tighter time financially for you. And I wanna just reflect that this is a chapter that will end, and then you’ll be into a new chapter when kiddos are in school and you’re both able to work during the days. So thinking about this as this too shall pass, this is actually kind of a fleeting time in your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:10]: 

So how do you best wanna manage this little window of time together? 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:14]: 

Yeah, I think that’s such a good reminder that it. It’s Fleeting in the hard ways, and it’s fleeting in the hopeful ways, too. It will be hard to say goodbye to this, and it will bring some relief, too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:26]: 

What are you noticing coming to the end of our conversation? 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:29]: 

I think just some hope and spaciousness to think about, refocusing my attention, refocusing that energy, and also just remembering what does matter and that this isn’t a forever decision. This is left for right now. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:43]: 

Thank you. Thank you for joining me today, Colleen. 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:45]: 

Thank you, Linzy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:52]: 

I really appreciate Colleen coming on the podcast today to share with all of us about the puzzle that she’s working out right now. That pain of breadwinning is really real, especially when in Colleen’s case, you’re still like the primary household manager when you have kids. So you’d also love to be able to have more time to be present with your children. It is a lot, a lot of pressure to be a main breadwinner in a household, especially when you’re also wearing those other hats. So, so much of that breadwinner piece, as Megan Megginson and I talked about on our breadwinning episode that started off this season, is having that clear communication with your partner, looking at the different kinds of contributions that you’re both making, making sure that you are in balance, that you are striking a certain type of equity between the two of you. And if you’re not having clear conversations about that, and I think the conversation that Colleen and her partner will be able to have will involve some numbers. You know, what is the actual math of how she can scale back a bit, do more of what she enjoys, and he can see scale up, work a bit. What does that schedule look like? What does the math look like to keep them at a place where they’re still paying their bills and meeting their obligations, but also making sure that they are building a life where Colleen can be present with her kids and, you know, not have regrets later about not being present during these precious years where your kiddos are really small and they’re years that that fly by. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:21]: 

So thank you to Colleen, to coming on the podcast today and talking about something that I know many of us feel very deeply as therapists and parents and breadwinners. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, then my free on demand masterclass is the best place to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

If you step into four weeks off but you’re still spending your time in a really similar way, I wouldn’t call that a sabbatical. I would call that just four weeks off. What makes a sabbatical different is that you are really meeting yourself and your time and your energy in a different way. This is what’s going to help you have the deepest transformative experience inside of sabbatical is if you put yourself in an altered state. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:27]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Maegan Megginson [00:01:04]: 

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Maegan Megginson, our most recurring guest on this podcast, who is here to talk about a project that I’m so excited about and a concept that I’m so excited about that I haven’t heard anybody else talking about, which is sabbaticals and taking a sabbatical. Maegan has a program called Sabbatical School that’s coming out that she has been percolating on and gestating for the last five years. And finally it is coming to life. And Maegan is here to talk about the value of taking a sabbatical, taking like a serious chunk of time away from your business. We talk about some of the things that come up and get in the way when people think about taking time off. Things like money, my clients will all leave. Everything will fall apart. 

Maegan Megginson [00:01:49]: 

People will judge me, I’ll judge myself. It’s selfish to take time off. We talk about those objections. She talks about what really defines a sabbatical for her. What is different from a sabbatical to say just taking some time off to, like, do some stuff around your house or go on vacation. And ultimately we talk about our relationship with time that we have as just people living in the world as it is and how taking a sabbatical can really help you change your relationship with time and come back into yourself. Here is my conversation with Maegan Megginson. 

Maegan Megginson [00:02:29]: 

Maegan Megginson, welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:31]: 

I am so delighted to be back, Linzy. Thanks for having me 

Maegan Megginson [00:02:34]: 

I am also delighted. I don’t know what appearance this is for you. I want to say, like, five, six. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:40]: 

I think it’s number 721. 

Maegan Megginson [00:02:43]: 

Is that emotionally what it feels like for you? 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:45]: 

Yes. I love it. 

Maegan Megginson [00:02:48]: 

And I’m really excited to have you here today because the topic that we have in mind, I feel like, is something that most therapists don’t even consider as an option for themselves. So I’m so excited that you’re bringing us an idea that, for some folks, might be like, what? Which is, we’re going to talk about taking a sabbatical as a solopreneur. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:10]: 

We sure are going to talk about that. 

Maegan Megginson [00:03:12]: 

Yep. So sabbaticals for solopreneurs. And I’m saying solopreneurs. Most folks listening to this podcast are probably in the health field, you know, therapists or manual practitioners. Something that defines our business. That’s really different than kind of the normal sabbatical that you might think of is it’s just us. There’s no external paycheck happening. And I know for me, the first time a sabbatical was ever on my radar was like, an academic sabbatical. 

Maegan Megginson [00:03:38]: 

Somebody that I knew whose husband worked for the university, and they took a year off and lived in New Zealand. And I was like, what is happening? That’s incredible. But obviously, in that time, her husband was still being paid his full academic salary and, like, doing some research. That’s, like, pretty different, I think, than the situation of folks listening. Tell me about the distinction. What’s different about sabbaticals for us than maybe that academic sabbatical that we might be used to. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:05]: 

It’s so interesting that most of us, when we think about sabbatical, our minds immediately go to the academic paradigm, because same for me, same for most people. The only time we’ve ever heard the word sabbatical or have known anyone to go on sabbatical, they’re academics. They work at universities. They work at teaching hospitals. And usually what that sabbatical time looks like is, okay, I’m gonna pay. We’re gonna pay you for. For a year to go somewhere else and do something super productive. Like, we’re gonna pay you to go, like, write your book or publish a bunch of articles or deep dive into a research project, which, on the surface, I love it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:47]: 

I think that’s, like, what a cool way to use your time as someone who has developed, like, a body of work in a specific field. But what’s funny to me is that somewhere along the way, that became a sabbatical. Because if we look at the word sabbatical, the root word of sabbatical is Sabbath. And the definition of Sabbath is to rest. And if we track it even further back, like the original use of Sabbath days were to have experiences doing nothing, to cease all activity. And somehow, somewhere along the path of colonization, sabbatical became this activity that was available to the academic elite to go off into the world and to create something to. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:32]: 

So I think in. In so many ways, like, as a society, we have a really skewed idea of what it means to take time off and what it means to like, take a sabbatical. In particular, solopreneurs feel like this is something that is just not available to them. And this is true. It’s similar for solopreneurs. I’m gonna. I’m gonna make a distinction here between solopreneurs and small business owners. So. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:02]: 

So let’s think of like, solopreneurs. Like, you’re in private practice. Like, maybe you have a couple contractors who help you in different ways, but it’s just you, like you said. And then we have small business owners. Maybe you’re like a group practice owner. You have a small team, maybe you have a large team. But even the largest group practices are still small businesses in the scope of, like, capitalist business structures. 

Maegan Megginson [00:06:25]: 

What’s possible for sure, but. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:26]: 

Right, exactly. So a sabbatical experience for a solopreneur versus a group practice owner. It’s going to be a little bit different. But we’ll talk in generalities here just to kind of get the point across. So we, we feel that these sabbatical experiences are so inaccessible to us because there’s nobody to pay us. We can’t imagine being gone for a year like our. What would our clients even do? We think our businesses would fall apart. There’s just this litany of reasons why we can’t place ourself in that paradigm. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:57]: 

But what I want to offer up is that that’s not the only paradigm for taking a sabbatical and that there is a difference between taking a vacation and taking a sabbatical as a small business owner. And I know we’re going to talk more about this in this conversation, but a sabbatical is something that you can build into the structure of your business to give yourself regular time away from the doing, from the to do lists, from the grind, from the being of service, from the caregiving. Like giving yourself time away from that to really Meet who you are on the other side of your productivity is a profoundly powerful practice that has really powerful impacts on your healing as a person, but also on your business. It’s a great gift that you can give to your business. So for the purpose of this conversation and for my work leading and guiding people through sabbaticals, I like to offer small business owners a one month container. One year isn’t accessible to a vast majority of us, but one month, I find, is an amount of time for a sabbatical experience that really allows you to dive deep and to go through a deeper transformation. That something like a one or two week vacation just doesn’t have the space for that spaciousness. 

Maegan Megginson [00:08:18]: 

The idea of thinking about sabbaticals as spacious, that’s really interesting, that distinction that you made of how now we think of sabbaticals in this academic sense and really what that is. If we think about what a sabbatical is for an academic, it’s more like a deep work period. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:32]: 

Totally. 

Maegan Megginson [00:08:33]: 

Like it’s one year to do deep work, right? To go off and get out of the daily grind of teaching or yeah, mostly teaching. And then to think deep thoughts and put together a body of work which has really nothing to do with rest. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:47]: 

It has nothing to do with. And I think it has nothing to do with rest and it has nothing to do with doing nothing. And for me, sabbaticals, getting rest on a sabbatical is absolutely part of the experience, but it’s not the point of the experience, right? I think the purpose of a sabbatical is to deconstruct your relationship with time by giving yourself an extended amount of space to do nothing or to really choose with intention how you are acting and behaving in the world. And in fact, let me share four different types of sabbaticals that you can take. This might be really helpful. I like to say, like, I have an agenda when it comes to sabbaticals. I have a bias about how I think it can be most transformative to spend your time in a sabbatical space. But I’m not the sabbatical police. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:40]: 

I’m not here to like tell you what you are and are not allowed to do with your time. So I like to give my clients a menu of options, like, let’s look at the different ways, the different intention you can bring to a sabbatical experience so that you can start to play around with how you want to experience a different relationship with time. And that’s the through line. If you’re committing to a sabbatical experience. I want you to spend your time in a drastically different way than you do in your normal day to day life. So for some people, that sabbatical time is productive. I think of this as the productive sabbatical. This is like a really great choice for people who have a project that is just pouring out of their soul. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:27]: 

Someone who’s like, I am so ready to write a book. I am so ready to like dig into, I don’t know, a house renovation. 

Maegan Megginson [00:10:36]: 

Project or like refinish all my beds. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:39]: 

Refinishing all of your. We were just talking about this before we started recording that. But what I really want folks to ask themselves is, is stepping into a productive sabbatical going to give me the experience of being with time in a different way than I am with time in my normal day to day life. Because if you step into four weeks off, but you’re still spending your time in a really similar way, I wouldn’t call that a sabbatical. I would call that just four weeks off. Right. What makes a sabbatical different is that you are really meeting yourself and your time and your energy in a different way. This is what’s going to help you have the deepest transformative experience inside of sabbatical is if you put yourself in an altered state, which we can talk more about altered states in a second productive sabbatical. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:30]: 

That’s the one we’re most used to seeing in the academic setting. There is something pouring out of me and I want time protected time to really channel my creative energy into this thing without the demands of my business knocking on the door every five minutes. That’s the first sabbatical. The second sabbatical is what I think of as an adventure sabbatical. This is for people who are like really feeling called to get into the world. They want to backpack through Europe. They want to like do something wild that they’ve never done before and really be in different places experiencing new and different things. But again, this needs to come from a yearning inside of your soul, not just like a bucket list that you’re trying to check off. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:12]: 

This isn’t time to do all of the things that you need to do. Because if that’s your mindset, you’re just right back in a place of doing, of following a to do list, of following a plan. But if what you know, you need to experience a total shift and the flow of your daily life is an adventure, an adventure, sabbatical is for you. The third sabbatical is a healing sabbatical so these are sabbatical spaces where people really want to take time away to focus on their own healing, right? This might be doing some like intensive therapy, sitting in ceremony, doing some psychedelic work, working with a nutritionist, changing their diet, their exercise, right? If you need some space to really heal your body, to heal your spirit, you can use a sabbatical to meet yourself with that intention. And then the fourth sabbatical, which is the one I think is the most radical and also often the most transformative, is what I call a timeless sabbatical. And this is a sabbatical where you really have absolutely no agenda. Of course you’re still going to be in all of these sabbaticals, you’re still going to be doing the doing of life, right? You still have to shower, you have to do your laundry, you still have to cook your food stuff to get your children off to school. Like that stuff isn’t going to go away unless you’re like super resourced and you can hire someone to do that for you, which if you do, awesome, love that for you, most of us, that’s not going to be accessible. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:41]: 

So we’re still doing the doing of life. But inside of the sabbatical experience, we actually have no plans whatsoever except to meet ourself each day, each moment, with inquiry, with curiosity. When I have absolutely nothing on my to do list, what do I want? What do I want to say yes to when there’s no agenda, no plan, no expectation for me to show up, to be something for somebody. The timeless sabbatical is a really powerful container that can pull you into some of the deepest layers of yourself that maybe you’ve never had a chance to visit before because you have been so sucked into the busyness of life, of doing so. Those are four ways you can think about, like how might I spend this time during sabbatical? But again, that through line, the thing that differentiates the sabbatical space from a long vacation or just some time off of work is that I am choosing consciously to, to experiment with time, with my relationship with time. Who am I if I create a huge shift in the way I experience my day to day life? 

Maegan Megginson [00:14:51]: 

Yeah, because that transformation of the relationship with time. I’m curious, what is your observation about the relationship that most of us tend to have developed with time, given the world that we live in? What is our normal relationship with time that you tend to see folks having? 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:06]: 

Our normal relationship with time is feeling victimized by time, feeling like we are in like a subservient relationship. With time. Time is the master. We are servants to the clock. And we feel the constriction of time, too 

Maegan Megginson [00:15:24]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:24]: 

We have these honestly unrealistic expectations about how much we can do in a day, in a week, in a lifetime. But we’re gonna do everything we can to shove those expectations into the time that’s been allotted to us. So it creates this sort of battle. We’re in a battle with time, and we feel exhausted. We often feel regret that there are things that matter that are important that we’re not making time for, that we don’t have time for. So time becomes like this thing we’re in a relationship with, and it’s not a good relationship. It’s not a right relationship. So we’re struggling. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:02]: 

Like, we’re really struggling with the parameters of time. 

Maegan Megginson [00:16:05]: 

Yeah. It makes me think about the book 4000 Weeks, about how he talks about how many of us are trying to cram multiple lives into one life. Essentially, we’re trying to do it all. We’re trying to, like, be that really present parent and be a successful business owner and also be an artist or whatever. Right. And we’re, as you say, in that battle with time, rather than kind of adjusting expectations or choosing this instead of that, which is always painful. That’s what people hate about budgeting, right. Is I have to choose this instead of that. 

Maegan Megginson [00:16:32]: 

But I want both. We do that with time, too. It’s like we’re trying to cram so much in that it’s constrained and pressured. And. Yeah, what I’m hearing, too, is ultimately, we don’t get satisfaction, too, when our expectations are here. And I’m putting my hand up in the air because this is a podcast, but what we can actually accomplish in a certain period of time is down here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:52]: 

That’s right. 

Maegan Megginson [00:16:53]: 

Yeah. So that transformation element, that transformative element that you’re talking about, I can see how that is so important to change that regular experience that we’re having. Otherwise, as you say, you could take a month off but still basically do exactly what you’ve been doing of still trying to cram a bunch into a day and then feel disappointed that you didn’t get XYZ done. And I told myself when I was off I was going to do these seven projects, which this is all deeply familiar to me, by the way, on the weekend, even when I’m in a good headspace on the weekend, I had a really good day. I’ve been having a lot of headaches lately, so my energy hasn’t been great. But Saturday I felt great and I started working on the backyard. And I was like, oh, then I’m gonna do this. Oh, and I wanna refinish that wheelbarrow. 

Maegan Megginson [00:17:30]: 

I’m gonna take it down to the metal and I’m gonna, you know, powder coat it. And thinking about all these things when ultimately I can really accomplish perhaps about 5% of those things that are on my list. Yeah 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:39]: 

Such a small percentage. Such a small percentage of the expectations that we have for ourselves. 

Maegan Megginson [00:17:42]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:43]: 

And just to make sure that no one listening is falling into a shame spiral about this, I think it’s really important to point out that we have been socialized to act this way. This is a direct byproduct of colonization, of capitalism, of industrialism, that we live in an age where we have been brainwashed to believe that our value and our worthiness is directly tied to our output and our productivity. We live in a culture that rewards profit, that rewards having something to show for your efforts. And. And we live in a society where we are all under this illusion that we’re talking about that it is possible to have it all, that it is possible to do all of the things. This is the first time in history we’ve had access to the Internet. Right. Which makes us intimately familiar with the happenings of the entire planet, which is cool in some regards, but also it’s like, really messing us up in other regards. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:42]: 

We know too much, we’re aware of too many things of. And the more we’re aware of, it’s like the more we want to do and the more we want to experience. And it’s like, hold on a second. These are all byproducts of socialization. And the reality is that my body and time are actually not separate from each other. My body exists in time. I am time. I am nature. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:08]: 

Right. I am a part of this ecosystem that I live inside of. And taking a sabbatical is a way to come back into connection with yourself and to come back into a really, like, a felt sense of understanding of your place on this planet and of your unique relationship with everything around you, including time. So it really gives you a chance to step away from the hamster wheel of life, of doing, of compare and despair, and just coming back to your own heart, your own soul, to really feel into. I am here now and what is important to me now, and how can I choose that? And how can I really feel into what I’m doing and cramming into my life that’s actually not coming from a yearning inside of my soul? But it’s coming from a set of expectations that live inside of my brain. Yeah. 

Maegan Megginson [00:20:02]: 

What I’m hearing here is like a coming back to yourself. Right. And getting to know who you are now. Because also, we might be in different chapters of life, different seasons than we were when we set a certain plan for ourself. We might still be playing out that plan. But maybe it’s not even what you want anymore. Maybe it’s not what lights you up anymore 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:20]: 

That’s right. It’s often not. 

Maegan Megginson [00:20:23]: 

So as we’re talking about this, folks who are listening, who are like, okay, yeah, I understand that. That sounds like it would be a good idea to get back into myself, get out of the grind, be curious about who I am now, give myself these new, different experiences that change my relationship with time. 

Maegan Megginson [00:20:38]: 

We know some of the things that come up and get in the way of this. These are things that you’ve experienced, and these are things that I certainly see mostly in my students because I’m more in that small business space where I think it’s a little easier to take time away, actually, when you have a team and there’s kind of the business is still happening for folks who are solopreneurs or who own a group where they’re really, like, central a group practice where they are the bottleneck kind of nothing happens without them. Some of the things that I see come up and get in the way. Even if folks are in extreme burnout and really need this kind of transformation is my business will fall apart if I’m not there. Everything will stop happening. My clients will all go away. They’ll go find another therapist to see. They can’t go without seeing me for a whole month. 

Maegan Megginson [00:21:19]: 

They’re going to just go find somebody else, or they’re going to drop off therapy altogether. And then, of course, I can’t afford that. I can’t be taking time off when already money is tight. What are your responses? Because I’m sure you hear folks say this stuff all the time. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:34]: 

Oh, all of the time. We’ll touch on just the tip of the iceberg right now in this episode and then direct people to more conversations about this afterwards, because each of those questions deserves a really thorough response and explanation. I will throw one more sort of obstacle or challenge into the mix, which is, actually, I’m going to throw two more into the mix. We won’t be able to get to all of these today, but I just want to normalize, like, what comes up when we start sitting with the possibility that we can take this kind of extended time off. One thing that comes up a lot is, like, the fear of judgment. 

Maegan Megginson [00:22:11]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:11]: 

What will people think of me, and how am I going to communicate about this with other people? That’s a big one. And another one that is a little deeper under the surface, but often bubbles up, especially when you really want this but you feel guilty about it. Is that, like, whoa, this is way too privileged for me. This is, like, selfish. This is a luxury I can’t afford. So that’s an internalized belief that deserves some examination, too. Okay. So we have all of these obstacles that come up when we’re thinking about giving ourselves this time off. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:49]: 

Linds, which of those questions do you want to start with? 

Maegan Megginson [00:22:53]: 

Let’s start with the. Everything will fall apart. My business will fall apart if I’m not there for a month. Great. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:59]: 

Okay, So I want to speak to that both from the solopreneur perspective and the small business owner. You have a team perspective. But first, I want to say something that applies to everybody, which is just a little bit of tough love to remind you that even though a month feels like a totally wackadoo amount of time to not be at work, it’s really not that much time at all. 

Maegan Megginson [00:23:27]: 

No. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:27]: 

Like, most people aren’t even gonna know that you’re gone when, like, most people don’t think about you that much. That’s the truth bomb. Like, most people don’t think about you that much. They probably won’t even notice you’re away if you have to cancel, reschedule sessions. Like, it’s not that much time. People are going to be fine. So I like to come in with a little bit of levity just to, like, bring us back down to earth to be, like, folks. We’re talking about four weeks, not four years. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:52]: 

Blip on the radar. Relax. Relax into that. Like, one month. Our businesses can tolerate anything for one month. So I just like to say that right out of the gate feels like a long time in our bodies because it’s a pretty. It’s a radical act for the self. For the self to say, I’m not going to do a damn thing for four weeks. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:13]: 

I’m just going to tend to myself. Crazy. That’s a crazy thing to do. Who does that? Who says that? 

Maegan Megginson [00:24:18]: 

Right. Like, that’s harder for us than it is for anybody else. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:21]: 

Exactly. 

Maegan Megginson [00:24:21]: 

We are the most impacted by that choice. Like, by an order of magnitude. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:26]: 

Perfectly said. Now, you said something interesting. You said it’s easier to take time off if you have a team, because Things are still running, but it really depends on your context because I think often the easiest way to begin a sabbatical practice is as a solopreneur. It’s never going to be easier for you to step away than when you are the only person working inside of your business. Now there are more like financial puzzle pieces that have to be put together to make it work for you financially. But in terms of systems, if we’re really looking at that question, like, won’t things fall apart if I’m gone? When you are a solopreneur, everything starts and stops with you. So putting your business on pause for four weeks is not that complicated. It feels complicated if you’ve never done it before. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:18]: 

But there are so many ways, so many simple systems you can weave into the mix, combined with some really thoughtful analysis around where your time is going to and what is actually necessary to continue while you’re away versus what can pause with you, what doing inside of your business can take a sabbatical along with you. And for the things that need to keep going or moving, there are really simple systems that you can put in place to keep them moving forward. When you have a small team, it gets a little bit trickier for a couple of reasons. Now, it’s nice from the financial perspective because if you have a team like, you’re likely running some group program, you have monthly recurring revenue, you’re selling passive products, there’s some things happening behind the scenes that keep revenue flowing in, which is awesome. But the downside is that you have to coordinate your absence with a team of people. And if those people are used to depending on you for certain things to keep their jobs moving forward, it can be a little bit sticky to figure out how to navigate that. There’s also the level here of equity, which is a really important topic for me as a business owner. When I look at my companies with teams and I’m stepping away to take a sabbatical, what feels equitable to me is making sure that they also have opportunities to take those sabbaticals as well as part of the company. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:42]: 

I don’t think it’s right that the business owner gets. That’s. To me, when it gets like the luxury privilege part of it gets a little bit sticky where it’s like, I get to do this thing because I own the business and everybody else has to keep working forever. I’m like, something doesn’t sit well about that for me. So I want to kind of zoom out and ask myself both, how can I create a company where everybody gets access to this type of time away to tend to self. I want to make sure we all have an invitation to step into that. And what changes do we need to make inside of the mechanisms of our business so that we can all step out and in and things can still run smoothly? Because if you’re in a position where you are recognizing that you’re the bottleneck, it’s great that that’s being illuminated because that needs to change. Right? It’s like if, if you are the bottleneck, if you cannot step away for four weeks without things falling apart, that actually is shining a light on some larger systemic problems inside of your business that are going to stop it from being sustainable for you for the long term. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:46]: 

What would happen if you got sick tomorrow? If you were in an accident? Right. If your family member needed you and you had to step away, Your business needs to be able to support you in stepping away. I think hands down. So these are all questions that get illuminated when we start exploring the sabbatical process. And when I walk people through my program, which is called sabbatical school, like when we’re going through sabbatical school, we actually start the program six months before you plan on taking the sabbatical specifically so that there is enough time to really work through all of this. The financial pieces, the systems pieces, getting your team on board. It takes preparation to be able to step away. But once you do it, once, you can build it in as a more regular practice every year, every two, every five years. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:35]: 

And it gets easier and easier every time. I’ve never known someone’s business to fall apart, by the way, when they do this. 

Maegan Megginson [00:28:41]: 

Yeah. It makes me think about the same thing as making a business that’s sellable. Like when you make a business in which you can take a sabbatical, you’ve also, also just made your business better. You’ve improved your systems, you’ve improved your financial management. Like the things that allow us to step away, you know, when you make your business more resilient, that’s also just good, period. Like, those are all awesome things to do for your business anyway. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:03]: 

It’s such a. I like to think of it in therapy language as like a secondary gain of a sabbatical practice. You know, it’s like when you are doing, like you’re doing it for yourself first and foremost. Like, this is this. This is a practice you are doing for your capital S self. But there are so many secondary gains that get like wrapped up in a pretty package. You know, you get to Examine your business through this lens. You get to really tighten up your financial systems. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:29]: 

You get to improve your communication and the expectation you have with clients and colleagues and collaborators. So, yeah, all the work that goes into stepping away for a sabbatical, just like you’re saying, it makes your business stronger from the ground up. 

Maegan Megginson [00:29:45]: 

It also makes me think about their secondary gains when people get their finances together. And sometimes if folks can’t do that capital S, I’m going to do it for me. Because for some folks listening, that might be hard to access. I also think about the secondary gain of, like, your kids get to see you do this thing, even if you can’t quite get to the place yet, of being like, I deserve this. I’m here. Sometimes I find it can help get folks wheels moving in the right direction. If they’re like, what do I want my kids to see? What do I want to think? What do I want to teach them is the value of time and energy and life? Or what do I want to teach them? Money is about right? And I find that that sometimes can be a bit of a spark, of a motivator for folks, especially when we’re so deep in that caretaking role that we’re only thinking about our impact on others. You’re doing incredible modeling when you are stepping away from your business and taking time to be with yourself and get to know yourself. 

Maegan Megginson [00:30:35]: 

And yeah, I just think it’s just such profound work to do for yourself and also for everybody who looks to you for inspiration. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:42]: 

You’re really speaking to the larger mission I hold around the sabbatical school vision. I really do believe that sabbaticals are acts of rebellion. Right? Sabbaticals are a way to push back against the ways that we’re socialized, the ways that we’re conditioned to reclaim a healthier relationship with self, with family, with community, with the earth. Right. With our businesses. And when we do them out loud, it’s part of the sabbatical school process, is saying, like, how can you do this process out loud? Right? We want to hide. We feel selfish. We feel privileged. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:20]: 

We feel kind of embarrassed that this is something that we’re doing. But I’m like, sabbatical is an act of social change. It is an act of social justice. And the most powerful thing that you can do, the gift that you can share with the world, is to say, like, yeah, I do. As a solopreneur, as a small business owner, I do have the privilege to do this. I do have the privilege to take this amount of Time off. Most people in this country, on this planet, will never have this privilege. This will never be available to them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:54]: 

It is available to us. That’s just a fact. So what are we going to do? Are we going to squander it, or are we going to use it for social good? And I think that the best thing you can do for yourself and for all of the people around you and for the collective is to say, I’m going to step into this as a reclaiming, and I’m going to do it out loud. I’m going to let people watch me do it. I’m going to be strong and steady when people project their judgment or defensiveness onto me. And I’m going to show the people around me that change is possible. And it can start in. In ways that feel very connected to self. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:32]: 

So, look, here I am. I’m doing it. And I’m doing it not just for myself, but for my kids, for my family, for my clients. I think it’s incredibly powerful when your clients see you taking this type of break and when you’re honest with them about what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. I mean, I could talk about this for hours because I think, like, the ripple effects that happen when you step into this space and claim what it is you’re doing and why you’re doing it are. 

Maegan Megginson [00:32:58]: 

Whoa. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:59]: 

Profoundly powerful. Yeah. 

Maegan Megginson [00:33:01]: 

Your passion around sabbaticals really mirrors my own passion around money. Like, I feel like I could just sub the word finances into everything you’re saying. Cause what I’m thinking about is, you know, you are really supporting and guiding folks into taking. 

Maegan Megginson [00:33:16]: 

Ownership, autonomy, agency over their time and how incredibly important time is. And that makes me think about, too, when you were mentioning privilege, it’s like, privilege is a power that we have, and whether you use it purposely or not, you still have it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:30]: 

That’s right. 

Maegan Megginson [00:33:31]: 

Your privilege doesn’t go away because you choose to do nothing helpful with it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:34]: 

You can’t give it away either. 

Maegan Megginson [00:33:35]: 

No. No, you can’t. So it’s like this is your. In being a solopreneur, in being a small business owner, you have this incredible privilege to do this powerful thing with your own life, to model that thing to those around you. I feel the exact same way about money in small business and money in general. It is a power that is there. Let’s use it to do incredible things. And just reminds me how much I like you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:56]: 

Wins. 

Maegan Megginson [00:33:57]: 

In conclusion, feeling is mutual. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:58]: 

We’re basically the same. 

Maegan Megginson [00:34:02]: 

But thankfully, with not directly competing Businesses, which I love about us. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:05]: 

Confusing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:08]: 

Yeah, that would be challenging. 

Maegan Megginson [00:34:10]: 

So, Maegan, tell folks about sabbatical school. Tell them about how they can learn more about it. I want them to know everything. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:17]: 

Sabbatical school is really an offering that is coming from deep inside of my own soul. And it is coming. It is like the offering that has gestated inside of me during my sabbatical experiences. So I have been taking sabbaticals since 2018, and I find that one of the most powerful things that happens for me on sabbatical is that I clear space in my body, in my mind, to really connect more deeply to what is it I really want to do with my life and my work, and how do I really want to be of service. And it takes time, right? It takes time for those visions, for that clarity, to really crystallize and to come forward. And for me, this idea of having a school for people who want to learn how to do sabbaticals first came through in 2020 when I was on taking sabbatical. And it’s just been. Yeah, it’s been gestating, and now it’s ready to be born, which is so exciting. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:24]: 

So the vision, the way it’s been coming through for me is that a group of people take a sabbatical at exactly the same time. So the first cohort of sabbatical school is starting in February 2026, and we will work through the sabbatical process together and then take a collective sabbatical in July 2026. So a full month next summer, we take sabbatical together, and then we come back for that seventh month to do integration. My sabbatical model follows a psychedelic model. That is in my work with psychedelics, where I have learned so much about what makes sabbaticals work. And I really do believe a sabbatical, when you do a sabbatical with this intention, to change your relationship with time, to change your relationship with doing, what you’re actually doing is creating an altered state of consciousness for yourself. You are really expanding and shifting your consciousness for an entire month so that you can see and experience your life in a way you don’t have access to in the day to day. So in addition to working on preparing your finances and getting your systems in order and communicating about this radical thing you’re doing with your clients, your family, your friends, we’re also gonna walk through a preparation process, just like you would do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:36:45]: 

Preparing for a psychedelic journey, preparing your mindset, preparing your setting, deciding how you’re gonna spend your time what your intentions are having the sabbatical experience itself and then coming out of that experience in that seventh month, which will be August, to do integration. And integration is where most of the lasting transformation happens, because if you have a great sabbatical experience and then you rush right back into your business the exact same way it was before you started, you will lose the wisdom that you unearthed during your sabbatical experience. So having an integration practice to really be guided through the process of taking the wisdom, taking the golden nuggets that you discovered on sabbatical, and weaving them into your life and business in a practical way is crucial. So that’s the arc of sabbatical school. I’m super psyched that you, Linzy, are going to be a guest teacher in the very first month to help us with the financial piece. So we’re going to be doing some really cool financial deep dives. And I created a whole podcast miniseries all about this process that goes in depth into each of those obstacles that you shared, in addition to lots of other fun stuff about sabbatical. So you can search for sabbatical school wherever you listen to this podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:38:04]: 

It’s 10 episodes. You can binge them and really just immerse yourself in this whole sabbatical world, and you can decide if sabbatical is in the cards for you at this moment in time. 

Maegan Megginson [00:38:19]: 

I’m very excited for it. I’m very excited to help folks lay that financial foundation, because I think often that’s where folks get stuck, like, right away. They’re just like, I can’t financially. I just can’t. I just can’t afford it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:38:28]: 

And we got to figure out if you can. Yep, you might not be able to. And I think that’s a gift that you’re bringing into sabbatical school. Is that that realism to, like, let’s really help people see, can you afford this? Because some people can’t, but most people can. And it’s like, we. You and I have talked so much about this. It’s like you. You just have to expand the way you’re thinking about money when you’re planning for a sabbatical. 

Linzy Bonham [00:38:51]: 

So I won’t give any spoilers, but it’s. We’re gonna. It’s. We’re gonna break people’s brains in the best way. 

Maegan Megginson [00:38:58]: 

So if folks are interested in learning more about sabbatical school, we’ll have a link in the show notes where you can click over get into Maegan’s world. I’m so excited. As someone who has watched you gestate this for a few years now. I’m very, very excited the sabbatical school is coming to life and that I get to be part of it. It’s like, it’s gonna be so fun. 

Linzy Bonham [00:39:16]: 

It’s gonna be. I think it’s gonna be the best. I mean, I, you know, I go, it’s. This is the creative process where there are moments when I’m like, this is gonna change the world. This is gonna be so amazing. And then there are moments when I’m like, what if nobody comes and it’s just me and like, nobody likes this idea? And you know what, like, riding those waves, that’s just like part of being a business owner. So if this sings to you, like, come and do this with me so that I don’t feel alone, you know, that’s really. I’m just, I’m begging at this. 

Linzy Bonham [00:39:44]: 

No, I’m just kidding. It’s gonna be awesome. 

Maegan Megginson [00:39:46]: 

It’s gonna be awesome. It’s gonna change your life. I think sabbatical is something, especially as mental health professionals, that we deeply need just time to be in yourself. We spend so much time attuning to others and being able to match where they’re at emotionally and remember what makes them tick and shine. Shine. It’s easy to lose track of that about ourselves. So I think that anybody listening could benefit from sabbatical school. So thank you. 

Maegan Megginson [00:40:09]: 

Thank you, Maegan, for joining me today. So excited about this new beautiful thing that you’re putting out in the world and for folks listening to be part of it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:40:16]: 

Thanks, Linds. Thanks for talking about this with me and for being a part of the vision. I’m so grateful. 

Maegan Megginson [00:40:27]: 

I really appreciate Maegan coming on the podcast today. I’m very excited for sabbatical school. Definitely check out that link in the show notes. I am so excited to be teaching the first lesson in sabbatical school to help folks to lay that financial foundation to be able to take that meaningful time off. Time and money are both resources. They’re both things that we have that take care of ourselves. And your money can absolutely be used strategically, creatively, thoughtfully to allow you to have time back in your life and to be able to be with yourself and revisit and reshape your relationship with time like Maegan talked about, and do whatever fun thing you want to do. As she mentioned, whether you’re needing some adventure deeply, whether you’ve got some project flowing from you that you need time to really be with, whether it’s going to be that, that nothing that open ended sabbatical so many different ways. 

Maegan Megginson [00:41:20]: 

But I do love this idea of really stopping and being with yourself to ask what do you really need right now? If you got rid of all the but what this? What about this? What about that? It won’t work because of this. If you got rid of all of those objections, what do you really need right now? And then doing the work to actually start to put the plan and the systems in place to support you in seeking that experience of giving yourself what you really need. It’s a bold thing. As Maegan said, it’s a revolutionary thing. And I would say also as therapists and caretakers and humans in this world, it’s something that we need to be able to keep being people that we actually like. 

Maegan Megginson [00:41:59]: 

Not being, you know, grizzled and tired and resentful and all these things that can happen when we have been over giving, when we’ve been driving ourselves too hard. It is essential for the that and just to actually enjoy life and be in your life is so valuable in itself. So check out Sabbatical School link in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned Money Coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register Start day using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. 

Maegan Megginson [00:42:37]: 

I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

We are in business, and part of business is, like, meeting the world where it’s at and being able to, like, sell the right thing at the right time. And if it’s really hard for you to sell a bunch of $300 sessions, but a whole bunch of people are happy to pay you 180. Again, like, some dollars is a lot more than no dollars. 

Julie Herres [00:00:18]: 

Yeah, run the numbers. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:20]: 

Yeah, again, run the numbers. See what makes sense. If you’re small, you can experiment. If you’re big, it’s definitely harder. But, yeah, I wanted to put that out there because I do think that, again, that’s another area where so much we have kind of, like, dug in, of, like, no, no. My work is worth this much. 

Julie Herres [00:00:33]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:33]: 

And it’s like, our work is only ever worth as much as people are willing to pay us. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Lindsay Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Julie Herres [00:01:15]: 

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to therapy for your money. Today is part two of my episodes with Lindsay Bonham from Money Skills for Therapists. So last week, we talked about in this economy, dot dot dot is how we unofficially named the episode, but we talked about kind of what’s going on in the economy. Honestly, it was a little bit of a downer episode, but the economy is a little bit of a downer right now. Yeah, that’s just how it is. But in this episode, we’re going to be much more uplifting, and we’re going to try at least, and we’re going to talk about what you can do as a practice owner to course correct, if things aren’t going your way, what are some of the things that you can do? So, Lindsay, you want to add some context to that? 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:54]: 

I do, yeah. I do want to add context, because I’m all about context. You know, something that occurs to me and you and I have talked about this idea before is culturally with therapy, too, we’re in a little bit of a pendulum swing in that the things that we’ve been talking about so much and that we’ve been concerned about the last five years mostly has been burnout. Right. Like, we’ve been talking about, like, okay, again, you have all these folks beating down your door. If you say yes to everybody, you’re gonna be seeing 25 complex trauma clients a week. Don’t do that. You’re gonna die. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:23]: 

So, you know, how do we set the right boundaries? How do we take care of ourselves? How do we space out our schedules? We’ve had to think a lot about self preservation in terms of not overworking, because that’s kind of been the problem that we’ve had. We’ve had the problem where if you’re not intentional, you’re gonna overwork and you are going to, like, burn right out of the field. And that does happen to folks, right? 

Julie Herres [00:02:42]: 

It does. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:42]: 

So that’s kind of the conversations we’ve been having a lot over the last five years. Cause that’s the problem that we’ve had. But our problem is starting to change. Now we have a new problem, which is, as we talked about last time, folks, all of us, myself included, we’re feeling a bit more cautious with our dollars. You know, we’re thinking kind of twice before we make big investments. People who might have been really happy to spend 200 bucks a week on therapy a year ago now are like, maybe I’ll just leave that money in my household for now. Is that really worth it to me right now? So we are seeing this dampening on demand. And the way that’s showing up is we’re seeing less wait lists for folks who used to always be waitlisted. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:24]: 

We’re seeing group practice owners having a harder time filling up their clinicians, you know, like, caseloads just not being full. 

Julie Herres [00:03:31]: 

Just less calls altogether. Right. Less calls, less outreach, demand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:36]: 

And of course, what that means for all of us is less money coming in the door. 

Julie Herres [00:03:39]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:40]: 

So that’s kind of like our. Our broader picture of where we are now. And I want to name that pendulum swing, because I do think there is a change in conversation there, a change in focus. Then that has to happen. Which is a little weird because we’ve been so used to being like, but don’t burn out, because again, that has been our most, like, our biggest threat. But I’m gonna say, like, our biggest threat is starting to change, and it’s important for us to stop and notice that. Cause otherwise, we can spend all of our time still trying to kind of, like, protect ourself from this old problem, when it’s not actually. Not actually the new problem, it’s not the biggest challenge we have right now anymore. 

Julie Herres [00:04:15]: 

So what would you call the new problem? 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:18]: 

I’m gonna say, oh, the new problem is crickets. Tumbleweed Town. What do we call it? 

Julie Herres [00:04:27]: 

Okay, so I was thinking more of a. Like, to me, the new problem is sometimes you just have to get to work. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:34]: 

That’s the solution, Julie 

Julie Herres [00:04:36]: 

Okay. Yeah. I’m like, so maybe the problem then is not being willing to do the things that need to get done at this point. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:45]: 

So. And this is where our fear of burning out and our sometimes what has become maybe a bit of rigidity to protect ourselves. We’re like, no, I do not work past 4:00′. 

Julie Herres [00:04:55]: 

Clock. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:55]: 

I always pick my son up for the bus stop every day. I always do yoga every Thursday morning. Like, these things that we have put in place to make sure that we don’t burn out. What I’m hearing from you is like, part of the solution for some folks might be that we have to be more flexible. 

Julie Herres [00:05:11]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:11]: 

Work a little more than we used to. 

Julie Herres [00:05:14]: 

Yeah. And this came from a conversation that you and I had a couple weeks ago, Linzy. Right. Where I was telling you we’re seeing group practice owners. Say, I worked so hard to get my caseload down to three clients. Do I really need to start seeing clients again? And sometimes the answer is yes. You’re down to almost $0. Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:05:36]: 

You probably do need to get back to seeing clients. Even though I don’t love that for you. Right. I don’t necessarily want that for you long term and permanently. But just because we got to this point doesn’t mean that that’s what works for the practice right now. Right. Or we’re having clients tell us, like, oh, my clinical director can’t possibly have a client load. Okay. 

Julie Herres [00:05:57]: 

But you’re down to now four therapists. Your clinical director probably shouldn’t even be a clinical director. They need to see clients today, like this week. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:05]: 

Yes. 

Julie Herres [00:06:06]: 

But we’re seeing a lot of rigidity of. I couldn’t possibly ask them to do that. Like, okay, well, if you’re not willing to do the things that need to be done, there are downhill repercussions to those decisions as well. Right. So that’s the. Like, let’s get to work. Let’s do the hard things. Because there are sometimes some hard decisions that are not fun but that are the job of the business owner. 

Julie Herres [00:06:30]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:30]: 

They are not. They are not fun at all. I’m sighing, you know, thinking about my. Some of my own decisions I’ve had to make over time, where you’re like, okay, wow, for the good of the. Have to make this particular decision, and I literally want to barf. But for the business to continue to exist and take care of all of us and take care of all of the folks that we serve, we have to make these hard calls sometimes. And partially what I’m hearing from you right now is like, it makes me think about kind of two different types of action that we can take as business owners. One is action that’s going to get fast money in the door, and the other is kind of like investing in the business, taking strategic action that will give us, like, longer term money. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:05]: 

So as a group practice owner, you know, in this scenario, if you’re seeing three clients a week and you’re like, oh, I worked so hard to get here, like, I don’t want to go back. And again, this is where I think we’re suggesting that maybe there’s a bit of rigidity there. My son’s occupational therapist would call that rock brain. You might be in rock brain. 

Julie Herres [00:07:22]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:23]: 

If I tell my son he’s in rock brain, he loses his shit. By the way, not into it. Okay, Augie, are you in rock brain? You’re like, I’m not in. But this is where we could be Superflex instead, right? So it’s like sometimes we do get into this. This mode of, like, no, I can’t possibly. I work so hard. That would be like a loss or a failure or moving backwards. But, you know, what I’m thinking is, as the practice owner, if you have a great reputation in the community, and if there’s folks who come to the practice because they want to see you and they end up seeing somebody else instead, but they really want to see you, that’s a fast way to get, like, a bunch of money in the door quickly if you are in demand and you have been turning away that demand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:00]: 

So I’m thinking, like, that’s a way to get fast money. Sometimes our businesses need fast money. Sometimes, like, we just need to get some money in the door right now to pay the bills that are coming. Especially for a group practice, this is the most relevant, I think, to, like, pay your payroll. You seeing five clients a week in addition, at 200 bucks each, let’s say that’s an extra $4,000 a month coming into the practice that pays for all the things that are going to have to be paid for anyways. So that’s kind of what I Hear is partially, it’s doing the things that are going to get us those results that immediately start to create stability. 

Julie Herres [00:08:35]: 

Yes. There’s the working in the business and then working on the business. Right. And sometimes it’s like, oh, well, I’m used to having Fridays off, and I’m not willing to give that up. And I’m not saying you should give up your Friday forever and ever, but maybe you do need to do some marketing activities for a couple of hours on a Friday. Right. Or like, there’s some kind of given. And maybe it’s Saturday morning because you’re partner is home and they can, they can manage the kids. 

Julie Herres [00:08:59]: 

Right. And so they can have some great time together. And like, and you’re doing something that’s helpful for the, the business. But that’s the pendulum swing that I’m seeing. Right. Where I’m hearing a lot of I can’t, which to me really usually means I won’t, I’m not willing to, I don’t want to, I don’t want to. And, and, and sometimes, like, as the business owners, we’re just the ones that have to do that, have to do the hard thing. And it can be fun things, it can be new adventures. 

Julie Herres [00:09:30]: 

Right. That’s part of business ownership that I actually really like is the figuring outing or the figure outing of like, what do we need next? What are we gonna try? Right. A, B, C, D, E, who knows? And you just kind of test things out. I like that part. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:46]: 

Do you? 

Julie Herres [00:09:47]: 

You like that? Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:48]: 

Which is why we’re still in business. 

Julie Herres [00:09:50]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:51]: 

Because, yeah. If you can think about things as kind of a fun experiment. 

Julie Herres [00:09:54]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:55]: 

I’d be like, well, what if, what if this, what if that, like, we’re in the middle of a sales launch right now, and it’s like, we’ve done something totally different. Might not look too different to our audience, but we know that, like, we’re kind of like doing things in a different order than we usually do. And, like, we’ve kind of like remixed things and we’re seeing what’s happening. Honestly, it’s not going great, so we’ll probably do something different next time. But when you have kind of the resilience to try things, to see how they go and take that as data, you can have fun with it. And also you can just make your business work because you start to really figure out what works for you. 

Julie Herres [00:10:22]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:23]: 

I mean, thinking about the Fridays, like, I used to not work Fridays, and now I do. That has changed in my own business again. Just as like the market has changed, you know, and we’re having to maybe like, think differently and try different things. I have more work to do, so I work on Fridays. And I have actually noticed for me right now that actually feels totally fine. Cause I’m like, okay, this is the season we’re in. Right. Like, I think if we can make peace with the season we’re in, then we can embrace what we need to do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:52]: 

But yeah, so that’s, that’s kind of like. Because I’m thinking to the Fridays, this, this makes me think about the. Working on the business piece. 

Julie Herres [00:10:58]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:59]: 

Because there’s these actions that sometimes we have to take where we’re just like, okay, I know that, like, maybe it’s a bruise to my ego that I need to start seeing more clients again because I really prided myself on getting down to four clients a week as an owner or only 12 clients a week as a solo practice owner. But also I’m seeing some of my clients are dropping off, so I’m going to like, open up more spaces. That’s fast money. The kind of like more slow money or working on the business. For group practice owners specifically, I will say I think is. And for solo practice, it’s often about marketing. 

Julie Herres [00:11:26]: 

Yeah 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:26]: 

It’s just like we need to find new ways now to get found and. Yeah. What are, what are your thoughts on marketing with. With how things are changing and how much more just like price sensitive people are these days. 

Julie Herres [00:11:37]: 

Yeah. So I, I’m generally, Lindsay. A big believer in hiring people who are experts in their own. In their own space. And that’s the really interesting part though is when the market feels a little bit tighter, when everyone’s just being a little tighter with their dollars, they’re often not willing to do that. But I think that is often a mistake where the way I think of, of spending money or investing money in a, in a program or in a professional is you’re just shortening the length of time to execution. Right. So instead of like, yeah, could I figure out how to chatgpt employment contract? Well, like, not that I have employment contracts already. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:16]: 

Right. 

Julie Herres [00:12:16]: 

But I’m just. As an example. Yeah, I probably could. And it might be somewhat good or not, depending on the input that I put in it, or I could spend, you know, a few hundred dollars with my attorney and know with certainty that they are actually correct and legal in my state. Right. So you’re just shortening the amount of time where even with your chat GPT thing, you’re probably eventually going to need to go to an attorney and have to rewrite them and do it. Right. You’re just lengthening the time to do that. 

Julie Herres [00:12:43]: 

So the same right now applies to, I mean to marketing, to hiring, to building a business. Facebook advice is worth what you pay for it, right? It is, it is free. And sometimes it is lacking tremendously in context, especially for, for really complex pieces like accounting, which depends on your specific facts and circumstances and your state. Where do you have employees. Right. It depends on a lot of very specific things. So people can give you lots of advice that is good for them on social media and it is crappy for you. But by going to that free advice, you are just lengthening. 

Julie Herres [00:13:22]: 

Ultimately you’re going to end up at some point in the same position. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:26]: 

Yes, you will. 

Julie Herres [00:13:28]: 

It will just take a lot longer. So I’m a fan whenever possible. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:30]: 

Right. 

Julie Herres [00:13:31]: 

When, whenever money will allow to shorten that timeline and just pay someone who’s really, who’s good at it to get you on the right track right now. Right. But I think what I’m seeing specifically is the practice owners that are really successful in adapting and again, solo to group, they are themselves adaptive. They’re saying, I, this feels different and I’m not sure what’s going on, but I’m going to go figure it out. So they’re looking at the data, they’re talking to people, they’re trying different things, they’re networking in the community. They’re not just saying like, well, let me, let me spend more money on, on, on. On the same ads that we’ve had for years and see if that works. Right. 

Julie Herres [00:14:06]: 

They are adapting and iterating. Yeah. And course. Correct. And that is what is causing them to still be successful in this economy. That’s, that’s the traits that I am, that I am seeing. Yeah. What about you? What are your thoughts? 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:21]: 

Yeah, I think, you know, the words that come to mind for me as well are like adaptive, resilient. Right. So trying, trying different things. And also, you know, I just had a conversation last week with some of my, my therapists, inside money skills group practice owners about marketing and yeah, just really being creative too. But being creative but then also being present enough to notice what works and what doesn’t. Right. So there’s this mix of creativity trying stuff, but also being organized enough that you can actually see the results. Because when we’re just kind of like randomly throwing things left, right and center, sometimes it’s hard to know what has actually worked and what hasn’t. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:58]: 

So this is where having some Nice metrics that you’re tracking. This is true for solo practice owners and group practice owners of like, okay, these are the marketing activities that I took last week. Here are the inquiries that came in. This is where the people who converted actually came from. Okay, interesting. That marketing dinner that I attended that I didn’t really enjoy actually gave me, you know, a couple leads. Okay. So I’m going to, like, go back to that group or I’m going to thank those people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:21]: 

I’m going to deepen those relationships. I was suggesting, again, just something to try to. One of my group practice owners the other day, she’s built relationships with the doctor’s office. She got a couple good referrals. Send them a box of treats that says thank you with your card next to it. Be memorable. Try stuff. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:37]: 

What is the cost to your business of sending, like, a box of baked goods? Like 45, 50 bucks. Right. Put your business cards next to them. People come into the break room, they’re like, oh, donuts, cool. Who says, oh, this is from the psychology, like, psychologist. 

Julie Herres [00:15:48]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:49]: 

You know, down the road. 

Julie Herres [00:15:49]: 

Right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:50]: 

Oh, yeah. And then you’re top of mind. Right. That’s not just like a, you know, to be clear, I’m not teaching marketing, but it’s. It’s a fun idea and see what happens. Right. Like, that’s. That’s a great example of something that doesn’t cost a lot but makes you stick out, because how many people do that? Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:04]: 

But it is that being present and being curious and willing to try different things. 

Julie Herres [00:16:10]: 

I’m going to admit something that I don’t think I’ve ever said on the, on the podcast, but I’m terrible at predicting which graphics will do well and will not which creatives, but if we were not measuring those things, we would not know what I think is going to do well. Almost never does. And it’s always like the randomest. The random things, like, okay, but, you know, what are you going to do? But if you’re not looking, if you’re not willing to say, you know what, I was wrong, and we’re going to pull it because it’s not doing well. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:41]: 

Yes. Then, no. It’s your baby and you love it 

Julie Herres [00:16:43]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:44]: 

There’s that piece too. Right. We get sometimes overly attached to things and we can’t let them go. 

Julie Herres [00:16:48]: 

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Yeah. Yeah. The data will tell us, though, what’s. What’s going on. Right. If you’re, if you’re looking at where the referrals are coming from you won’t know. We’re talking a lot about marketing. 

Julie Herres [00:16:59]: 

Even though we are the focus, it isn’t the focus. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:03]: 

But part of what I’m thinking is again, so much about, I think the challenges these days are that folks are more price sensitive. 

Julie Herres [00:17:09]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:10]: 

Like, we’re going to have to attract more people to get them in the door. We don’t have a ton of time left to record. But I do want to throw out a question to you. 

Julie Herres [00:17:18]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:18]: 

That came to me recently on a call and I was like, that is a really interesting question. What do you think about out of pocket therapists in Canada? That’s everybody lowering their fees to meet where the market’s at. Ooh, yeah. What do you think about that? 

Julie Herres [00:17:35]: 

I think that’s a ton. That’s an interesting one. I do think. I mean, there’s kind of a high horse and then there’s a practical approach as well. Right. So I think it’s not necessarily for everyone, but I would go to the data. If you have seen a big drop off in clients and as you’re reaching out to folks and saying, hey, I know we noticed you didn’t reschedule or sending them a short survey and they’re saying the cost, I think it could be worth running an experiment and trying to see what is going on. Of course, if that makes sense for you and your practice. 

Julie Herres [00:18:10]: 

Right. That probably means all the other expenses have to be reviewed as well. But I think it’s at least worth the experiment. And then also in reality. Right. We live out here in the real world, you. You and I. If you need money, Right. 

Julie Herres [00:18:25]: 

If you’re a solo therapist and you just simply need money to run your household. Yeah, absolutely. Do what needs to be done. I would rather have some money coming in than 00. So in that sense, I would go back to an analogy you used for our last. Our last episode, which was the ship. Right. If you’re. 

Julie Herres [00:18:43]: 

If you have a large group practice that’s a big cruise ship, it’s a lot harder to move and say, hey, we’re going to do things differently. We’re going to try this thing. But the smaller your practice, the more you can kind of adapt and zoom around and see, test things out. And I would definitely try. Yeah. What’s your opinion? 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:00]: 

Yeah, I mean, the answer that I gave to that therapist, because it was on like a coaching call, was run the numbers to see what the difference would actually be. 

Julie Herres [00:19:10]: 

Like. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:10]: 

Let’s say your standard fee is $175 and you want to bring it down to 150. There might be something magic about that number. Like, numbers are not logical, Right. Like, we all have very emotional relationships with numbers. So there are some numbers that it’s easier for people to pay. Right. You kind of, like, you get. There’s these different, like, thresholds that become like, ooh, that’s expensive. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:29]: 

You know, like, 180 wasn’t expensive, but 200 is too much or whatever. But running the numbers of what the actual difference would be, like, let’s say people come for three more sessions because of that. Right. Like, what would be the actual impact of clients being retained or converted compared to the money that you’re losing? Because. Yeah, and this is where I think I bring this up. Not because I actually have the answer, but I do think it’s a good example of a spot where we have learned to be a bit, like, sanctimonious. Right? We’re like, no, no, no, no, no. I am a $300 an hour therapist. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:03]: 

Like, that’s. That’s who I am. I’ve worked really hard on my mindset to get to this place. And if I go backwards, then I’m kind of, like, failing or I’m letting myself down. And I think that there’s that take on it. But I do think that that’s where we’re maybe making it too personal. We’re making it too personal. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:20]: 

And really, it’s like, we are in business, and part of business is, like, meeting the world where it’s at and being able to sell the right thing at the right time. And if it’s really hard for you to sell a bunch of $300 sessions, but a whole bunch of people are happy to pay you 180. Again, like, some dollars is a lot more than no dollars. 

Julie Herres [00:20:41]: 

Yeah, run the numbers. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:42]: 

Yeah, again, run the numbers. See what makes sense. If you’re small, you can experiment. If you’re big, it’s definitely harder. But, yeah, I wanted to put that out there because I do think that, again, that’s another area where so much we have kind of, like, dug in of, like. No, no. My work is worth this much. 

Julie Herres [00:20:55]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:55]: 

And it’s like our work is only ever worth as much as people are willing to pay us. 

Julie Herres [00:20:59]: 

Ooh, yes. Yeah. Same like houses, right? It’s worth what someone is willing to pay for. That’s it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:05]: 

Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:21:05]: 

Yeah. And that’s. And it’s not a reflection of your own self worth as a person or as a therapist either. It’s not personal. Not Julie Lindsay, on that note, We’ve got to wrap it up. Such a pleasure to do a two parter with you. It was really fun. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:18]: 

Can we just quickly summarize what we talked about today? Because I feel like there were a lot of ideas. 

Julie Herres [00:21:21]: 

Absolutely. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:22]: 

We talked about being adaptable. 

Julie Herres [00:21:23]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:24]: 

And resilient. Those are my words. I just summarize my own points first, not surprisingly. 

Julie Herres [00:21:28]: 

Course correct. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:28]: 

Course correct. 

Julie Herres [00:21:29]: 

If you need to be willing to try a bunch of different things, I would approach it with curiosity and just. Just try things out. See? 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:37]: 

See what works for you and then measure what works. 

Julie Herres [00:21:40]: 

Measure what works. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:41]: 

Yes. 

Julie Herres [00:21:41]: 

Look at the data. Yeah. Amazing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:44]: 

Everybody. You’re all going to do great. We got this. We’re all in the same suit. 

Julie Herres [00:21:47]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:47]: 

We’re all for you. 

Julie Herres [00:21:49]: 

Y and it’s not easy being a business owner. If it was easy, everyone would do it. But you’ve got this. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Foreign. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:03]: 

I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my free on demand masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

That everything is good, then we are so much more willing to make an investment, you know, maybe bet on ourselves a little bit, go for that bigger this or that. Because we. We believe that, you know, more money is coming. But when things feel uncertain, naturally we’re gonna become tighter, right? Like, physically we become tighter. I think we’re stressed, right? We become physically tighter. We become tighter with our money. So I see that in therapists, right? Like our. Our fear to invest in our businesses, and our clients are experiencing that as they’re trying to decide, as you say, do I pay $800 for therapy that I know is really gonna help me with my childhood trauma, or do I keep that 800 in my household because money has become very tight? Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:52]: 

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Julie Herres [00:01:18]: 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Therapy for your Money. We have a special episode today. We’re chatting with my friend Lindsay Bonham from Money Skills for Therapists. Lindsay, you are one of my favorite people. I always enjoy chatting with you, and so thanks for coming on today. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:34]: 

Yeah, thank you. I’m so excited to be here, and I’m very excited that this is a dual episode, which I also feels very efficient. But we should pat ourselves on the back for efficiency because we’re going to air this episode, I guess kind of like, edited your way on your podcast stream. And edited my way on my podcast stream. So this is a dual function conversation. 

Julie Herres [00:01:56]: 

Yeah. Very efficient. Points for efficiency. So do you want to intro us in? What are we talking about today? We have a fun plan. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:03]: 

Unofficially, this episode is called in this Economy, which is born out of you and I just talking to about our own businesses and what we’ve been seeing with changes in how people are acting and buying and thinking. And as we were talking about it, we were like, we should record an episode about this because this is impacting literally everybody that we support right now. 

Julie Herres [00:02:41]: 

Yeah. And there’s just a lot of similarities right. In what we’re seeing. We both, I mean, we work with kind of a lot of the same people and we’re recording this at the very, very end of September. It’s almost October. So just for context of like this is what’s going on. Right. Right now in the economy 

Julie Herres [00:02:56]: 

Yeah. So where should we start? 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:58]: 

How about we start by you, you sharing what you’ve been seeing in terms of your clients numbers and the challenges that are coming up for you? 

Julie Herres [00:03:04]: 

Yeah, yeah. We have been seeing. So at Green Oak, we work with a lot of practice owners, specifically a lot of group practice owners. So there are plenty of practices that are doing fine where it’s kind of cruise control. Things are going well. They, for the most part are practices that are pretty well established and that have good marketing mechanisms already. Right. So they know what dials to pull to to attract new clients. 

Julie Herres [00:03:28]: 

But we are seeing a lot more practices that are struggling with cash flow where we are in a place of I’m not sure I can make payroll or payroll taxes are behind or how do I pay myself. Right. Just the where. Where the waterfall keeps going and cash problems keep really spiraling. I imagine it kind of like a, you know, a drain, Lindsay, where things are just spiraling out of control and like the. You get to the bottom of that drain, like you’re just going real fast and there’s not that much that you can do to get out of it. Right. And so sometimes we’re at the top of that spiral, sometimes towards the bot the bottom. 

Julie Herres [00:04:04]: 

But this year specifically, we have seen just a lot more folks coming in to work with us for the very first time. Right. New clients to us that are in a what I would call a cash distress situation where, you know, it might almost be too late, where we are going to do everything in our power to help them get back on track. But it might actually already be too late. Right. There is a point where an account that we don’t have a magic wand and there’s only so much that we can do if things are already in a really bad shape, there may not be enough time for us to get things back on. On track. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:40]: 

Yeah. And as you’re saying that it Makes you think about how that is so specific. Like that’s the, the gift and the responsibility liability of group practice. 

Julie Herres [00:04:51]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:51]: 

Built something that’s just so much bigger. You know, I think about a group pract, a large group practice. Like, you know, I’m working with one therapist right now who’s 55 clinicians working for them. And I know you work with folks of that scale too. That’s kind of like a cruise ship size business. 

Julie Herres [00:05:05]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:06]: 

Where it takes a lot of time to turn and pivot and get everybody on board and. Which is very different than folks who are in like solo practice who are more in like a kayak where they’re. 

Julie Herres [00:05:16]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:16]: 

Okay. 

Julie Herres [00:05:16]: 

Wow. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:17]: 

I just got to like jump out and start doing these different things. So. Yeah, for a large business, the consequences can be huge when we haven’t kind of seen the writing on the wall early enough. 

Julie Herres [00:05:27]: 

Yes. And sometimes it’s because you’re not looking right at what is coming down the pike. Sometimes it just also happens as a surprise. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:35]: 

Right. 

Julie Herres [00:05:35]: 

Like we’ve seen this year practices lose 25% of their clinicians in one fell swoop. Right. Sometimes in one day. And that’s not common, but it does happen. And it’s. I mean, you can’t plan ahead for that. Right. Unless you hear the rumblings of an uproar. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:51]: 

Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:05:52]: 

You usually don’t. Won’t that’s happening until it happens. And if you’re in a precarious situation to begin with, something like that can take the practice down. Right. If you don’t have reserves or a line of credit or cash in retained earnings, I mean, that can be the end of a practice on occasion. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:13]: 

Yeah. Because I’m also seeing this in the folks that I know in solo practice. 

Julie Herres [00:06:17]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:18]: 

Just as we kind of think about the, the bigger picture here, it’s happening in group practices where we are seeing like numbers are down. But also I’m seeing in solo practice, I’ve had a couple folks tell me, and of course this is anecdotal because it’s a couple but you know, premium fee therapists who have been full for years, like wait list. Always, always wait list. And now they have like a couple open spots which is going against years and years and years this data of having kind of a lineup out the door. And so we are seeing this kind of dampening in numbers. So let’s, let’s kind of zoom out a little bit because, you know, this episode is unofficially called in this economy. What do you see happening in the economy? Like we’re not officially in a recession. 

Julie Herres [00:07:01]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:02]: 

But we’re definitely not booming either, but. 

Julie Herres [00:07:07]: 

Right, okay. So yeah, officially not in a recession. I definitely want to get your, your input on this too. I’m in the U.S. you’re in Canada, but you work with a lot of American practices as well. So what we are seeing is a lot of inflation. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:22]: 

Right. 

Julie Herres [00:07:22]: 

The cost of living is really high and there’s a lot of fear is kind of what’s going on in the market. Right. Where changes to health insurance, where for a lot of folks are kind of bracing for including small businesses. Right. For significant increases most likely coming at the end of the year for open enrollment, for renewals of health insurance. That is likely what’s going to be happening just based on the legislative changes this year. Right. And so when then people lose access to healthcare, that mean that reduces the pool of folks to who can go to therapy. 

Julie Herres [00:07:56]: 

But when everything is just feeling a lot more expensive these days, and that’s certainly how it’s feeling over here is you start looking for like what is a little bit more optional. Right. What is, what is something that we could do without. And therapy is as helpful as it is and can be. But specifically sometimes cash pay therapy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:16]: 

Right. 

Julie Herres [00:08:16]: 

If we’re looking at, in my area, if you’re going to see someone once a week, that’s probably $800 a month. It’s $200 per session, $800 a month. Like that’s, you know, by eliminating that, that’s a lot of money coming back into the household. We are seeing sometimes that is no longer sustainable or folks are going to every other week. Right. We’re kind of changing the cadence of what they do. But we’re also seeing practice owners just not wanting to make a lot of changes. Right. 

Julie Herres [00:08:44]: 

Be kind of worried of like, well, do I have to just absorb the additional health insurance costs for my team members? Like how are we going to do that? I don’t want to reduce what we offer. It’s costing them more to live. But at the same time we’re seeing sometimes reimbursement decreases. What do we do? Right. There’s a lot of things that are just squeezing. Practice owners are making it just really, really hard. And also on top of that, SEO and ads don’t work the way they used to. Right. 

Julie Herres [00:09:16]: 

What worked two years ago no longer works. And so it’s kind of a relearning process. So that’s what I’m seeing on my side. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:21]: 

What about. 

Julie Herres [00:09:21]: 

What do you think? 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:23]: 

Yeah, I think there are a couple pieces Going on one is, as you say, there’s just this feeling of being squeezed, of more tightness, inflation. Over the last few years, life has just gotten more expensive. And I think what also used to be considered, you know, a comfortable upper middle class income is no longer comfortable. It’s now just like what you need to get by, right? I had a student of mine tell me this is a couple years ago even that her accountant who is based in Edmonton, his opinion was that the new upper middle class was a household income of $300,000 before. 

Julie Herres [00:09:57]: 

Wow. Wow, right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:58]: 

It’s like that is like truly comfortable. Below that you’re still having to make these like this or that kind of decision, your money. Because everything is more, everything’s that little bit more. I notice that in myself. Like it’s always interesting to stop and notice our own consumer behaviors. Like when we ask why aren’t clients coming? Or in my case, why? Why aren’t people so keen to buy courses right now? Or I think about my own consumer behaviors. When I go to the grocery store now and there’s a stand that says like $4 bags of nuts, I’m like, yeah, I’ll take a $4 bag of nuts. 

Julie Herres [00:10:26]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:26]: 

Like I don’t want to pay $10 right now. I’m feeling a little price sensitive, right? So I think that price sensitivity is across the board for a lot of people and I think there’s reasons for that. And there’s also reasons that are political and cultural right now. There’s a lot of bracing happening. You know, when changes started being rolled out by this new government, I was like stunned at what rolled out so fast. It’s like there’s just so much change that’s so shocking and so just fear inducing for a lot of folks. Just this, like, yeah, that’s happening all the time. And what do we do when we’re scared? Like, we tend to freeze. 

Julie Herres [00:11:04]: 

We brace, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:06]: 

Like it doesn’t feel wise to take a risk when it also feels like. But what’s happening in the broader picture? A neighbor of mine who is very business minded made this comment that certainty breeds prosperity. When we feel certain that everything is good, then we are so much more willing to make an investment, you know, maybe bet on ourselves a little bit, go for that bigger this or that. Because we, we believe that, you know, more money is coming. But when things feel uncertain, naturally we’re gonna become tighter, right? Like physically we become tighter. I think we’re stressed, right? We become physically tighter, we become tighter with our money. So I see that in therapists. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:45]: 

Like, our fear to invest in our businesses. And our clients are experiencing that as they’re trying to decide, as you say, do I pay $800 for therapy that I know is really gonna help me with my childhood trauma, or do I keep that 800 in my household? Because money has become very tight. Right. And I wanna make sure that there’s extra money left at the end of the month, and I’m not scraping bottom. So, you know, I think there’s. 

Julie Herres [00:12:05]: 

That. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:07]: 

Think that is happening is we are experiencing the. I don’t know if it’s just like the natural market. Correction is a word I would never use on my podcast, to be clear, but it does make you think about, like, a natural, like, correcting out of COVID was such a boom time for therapy. 

Julie Herres [00:12:26]: 

Yes, yes. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:27]: 

It was so terrible in so many ways. And yet people got therapy because they were stuck at home. Therapy was something you could access online. Maybe you couldn’t see your massage therapist or your osteo, but you could talk to somebody about your stress and anxiety. That was probably through the roof. 

Julie Herres [00:12:42]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:43]: 

So for a little while there, like, our job as therapists was to not burn out because we had so much demand. Right. And so that was. That was a boom. That was, you know, a high, high watermark for us as an industry, as much as it’s terrible because the work that we do helps people, like, get through terrible things. And now I think there’s also been a bit of a natural correction there, to put it a certain way. Just like an evening out that we couldn’t have stayed in those high numbers forever. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:11]: 

At a certain point, people want to spend their money on something else. 

Julie Herres [00:13:14]: 

Yeah. As in, like, for a couple of years, we saw that really, really high demand. And now we’re kind of back to. Yeah. Pre Covid. Right. Where there’s still a demand. There’s definitely still a lot of folks who need therapy, but it’s not as much of a. 

Julie Herres [00:13:27]: 

A priority necessarily. Right. Is that kind of what I’m hearing you say? 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:31]: 

Two, During COVID we saw a lot of folks seek therapy who wouldn’t have under other circumstances. Right. So they only sought therapy because they were stuck at home. And things got so bad, they were like, I need to talk to somebody. And they couldn’t see their friends, and they couldn’t see their family, and they couldn’t go to the beach, and they couldn’t do anything. And so I think, too, we’re probably getting closer to now that more typical therapy population which is folks who have done all the pre work that it takes to be like, okay, I need to do this work. 

Julie Herres [00:13:57]: 

I want to do this work. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:57]: 

This work is worth it. But there’s always been like a large part of the population who’s really resistant to therapy and aren’t interested in therapy because it’s hard and it’s icky and it’s vulnerable. And now I wonder if, like, the fact that a lot of the folks can go paddle boarding instead means that they’re not going to therapy. Which to me, again, that’s just kind of like a maybe like a natural evening. And I do think that the culture has changed for the positive in that more folks now are therapy and will go back to therapy if they need to. But also a lot of people did therapy a lot during COVID so at a certain point, they’re gonna be like, okay, I’m good with therapy for now. 

Julie Herres [00:14:28]: 

Yeah. Yeah. Anything else that you’re noticing within maybe compensation or benefits or kind of though decisions around hiring? 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:39]: 

Yeah, I mean, what I am also hearing from a lot of group practice owners specifically, is that it’s a lot of competition to try to find folks. Right. So they are having to make decisions around how much can they actually to hire. And as a group practice owner, we know it’s really easy to over offer because you want to be that great boss, you want to attract that great therapist, you want to be a good person. But I definitely see a lot of therapists, they’re having to really, hopefully get really clear on their numbers, so they’re making offers that they can actually afford because new therapists coming to the space, it’s easier and easier to just work for yourself. 

Julie Herres [00:15:19]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:19]: 

Which, to be clear, I’m totally an advocate for. If you’re up for the business stuff, definitely do it. Yeah, I think too, you’re seeing a lot of applicants who are like, demanding more, which on the group practice side means that group practice owners are having a hard time attracting new clinicians or maybe retaining people and having to figure out that balance of what can they actually offer and what will actually, like, destroy their business. 

Julie Herres [00:15:44]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:44]: 

If they operate. So I’m definitely seeing more demands from. From applicants. 

Julie Herres [00:15:48]: 

So I will be the first to say the insurance market has not kept up. Right. I think that therapists are still vastly underpaid compared to other medical specialties. Like, that was the 10 years ago. That is even more so the case today. And yet, like, I get so much hate online for saying to group practice orders that you cannot overpay like your practice will fail if you overpay your therapists. Right. And the hate is usually in the form of like, look at these people telling therapists to not group practice owners to not pay us or we’re worth more, we should get paid a fair living wage. 

Julie Herres [00:16:20]: 

Like yeah, I agree with that. And yet like if the business that you work for goes underwater, that helps literally no one. Right? Like then there is no business left. A business has to make money. That’s how capitalism works. Like it or not. Like it’s not a non profit. A business must generate more revenue than it spends. 

Julie Herres [00:16:40]: 

Right. That’s how a business works or it will no longer operate. And actually for non profits, that’s the same is true. They still have to bring in more dollars than, than what, what it actually costs to, to run the nonprofit. So, so even, even in a nonprofit sense like that, the numbers still work the same way. But so that is even more important now, right? Where that’s where the squeeze is happening. Those reimbursement rates are not going up. Sometimes they’re even going down. 

Julie Herres [00:17:04]: 

And brand new clinicians are coming in saying like, I want to work 15 hours a week and make 100 grand. Like that’s great. And that’s not possible. Right. Like there is, there is no math that’s going to work for that. And I hope that someday there is. I do hope so. But in a group practice setting, that’s simply not, not possible. 

Julie Herres [00:17:21]: 

It may be in a private pay setting, but then you might be dealing with other things in a private pay setting, like not having enough clients to keep you full. Right. So there’s kind of always a, an ebb and flow and a balance. Of course a private pay practice can pay more, but it also costs a lot more to get a new client in the door. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:39]: 

It does. Yes. Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:17:41]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:41]: 

There’s a. No matter what business has its challenges. 

Julie Herres [00:17:45]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:45]: 

No matter what kind of practice we have, we’re going to have our challenges. Yeah. And so I’m hearing like, yeah, that Reimburs is lower. It’s not catching up. So that’s also something that’s kind of like squeezing therapy practices. And this is what I see sometimes is for, for some folks and this is where for some people it does end up making sense to go private pay. The reimbursements are so low that no matter how many hours you work, you’re not actually going to make enough. Especially if you’re like a solo parent, you just won’t make enough to support your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:10]: 

Right. So that’s Another kind of squeeze that we’re seeing is this larger system, this insurance system that we don’t have direct control over, has not valued the therapy very much in terms of reimbursements. 

Julie Herres [00:18:21]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:22]: 

Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:18:22]: 

And also in this economy, I do think a lot of practice owners have realized they do not actually want to be business owners. They do not like the business side of running a practice. And that’s whether it’s a solo or group practice. I think a lot of people go in thinking, oh, I’ll just, you know, have a website and that. That’ll be that. Right. Like, just clients will come to me and I’ll see clients, and that’ll be it. But as. 

Julie Herres [00:18:52]: 

As you and I know, there’s so much more to being a business owner than that. Right. There’s the compliance piece, there’s the marketing piece. Like, how does money come in? The billing, the payment processing, the taxes at the end of the year, there’s just so many different things. That is often unpaid labor where you’re not directly getting paid for the time spent doing that. And I have definitely seen more of that this year. People saying, you know what? This is not for me. So either they’re going from a group back to solo or just opting out altogether and saying, I’m gonna go. 

Julie Herres [00:19:23]: 

I will make more money working for group practice. So I’m gonna go do that at this point because I do not enjoy managing people and all of this stuff that comes with it. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:34]: 

Or, you know, I’m thinking about solo practice owners. Go back to work for, like, a hospital system or something like that. 

Julie Herres [00:19:39]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:40]: 

It is true. Like, I think because we’re at a time now where, again, like, the market’s a little quieter, it’s a little harder to get those clients. We’re no longer having to, like, put a table against our door to protect ourselves from the people, like, beating down our door. Now that we’re not in that place. I think a lot of the normal challenges of running a business are becoming applicable to therapists that maybe we were a little spared from before. Yeah. 

Julie Herres [00:20:02]: 

For the long terms of. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:03]: 

Having to, like, figure out all these different ways to market and you figure out how to really get our numbers really working for us. Yeah. We. Some of us have not really had to do this work before, and now this might be the project that a lot of group practice owners or solo practice owners are having to do as things kind of quiet down a little bit. 

Julie Herres [00:20:21]: 

Yeah. Something I say often is in small business, it’s not a question of if something will go wrong, it’s a question of when. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:28]: 

Right? 

Julie Herres [00:20:29]: 

And this is the when. Now is the when for a lot of people. Like, something is going wrong. And then as the business owner, it’s on you. You have to deal with it, and you have to. There is no one else coming to save you. You have to figure it out. Okay. 

Julie Herres [00:20:41]: 

It’s not easy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:42]: 

This is the most downer episode I’ve ever recorded, to be clear. 

Julie Herres [00:20:47]: 

Sorry, everyone. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:49]: 

There’s a part two coming. Everyone who’s listening right now and is like, oh, my God, this episode’s almost over. And they only talked about things that are bad. So we are doing a part two to this episode because we really wanted to give the lay of the land. So let’s summarize. Julie, kind of our. Our analysis so far of kind of what’s. What’s going on. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:04]: 

We’ve got economy generally kind of damp. People in a bit of, like, a bracing position right now, holding on to money. Holding on to money. 

Julie Herres [00:21:12]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:12]: 

When I’m making motions with my hand that my listeners won’t be able to see because we do not do full YouTube grasping onto their money. So we’ve got that kind of vibe that’s kind of the zeitgeist right now. Insurance reimbursements are lower sometimes than they even were a couple of years ago. You’re getting not paid as much. We’re seeing after Covid. Maybe this, like, boom that we had in therapy is now kind of evened out. We’re back to maybe more pre Covid numbers. 

Julie Herres [00:21:35]: 

Marketing is challenging. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:37]: 

Yes, Marketing is challenging. 

Julie Herres [00:21:38]: 

And if you have employees, they’re asking for more, even though there is no more juice left to squeeze off. Yes. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:46]: 

So kind of these squeezing for all times. And I will say in terms of the marketing piece. 

Julie Herres [00:21:49]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:49]: 

Things like SEO and Facebook ads not working like they used to. 

Julie Herres [00:21:52]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:53]: 

I remember when Facebook ads, I will share personally, was like a. A machine. In the kind of marketing course that I did that helped me launch money skills for therapists in the way I sell it now, there was kind of this idea of like, Facebook is like a machine and like you put in a dollar and $3 come out or $4 come out. Like, there really was a time when we talked about Facebook that way and that time is over. So running those, like Instagram ads and Facebook ads still can get you folks, but it’s definitely not. Again, we are out of this kind of boom. Time for therapy and for online business too, I would add. So, yeah, that’s kind of our lay of the land. 

Julie Herres [00:22:25]: 

What a downer. Have some solutions for you, right. Some ideas for you in ep. So I do hope you will join us for the next episode on a more positive note. Yes, we’re doing all the, all the hand signals like we’re going to be so positive folks. Come on back. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:43]: 

Do some, do some self care, ground yourself, read some escapist romantasy. That’s my new coping mechanism in life. And come back next week and we’re going to talk about how to adjust to these times that we’re in. 

Julie Herres [00:22:54]: 

Perfect, Julie thank you, Lindsay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:59]: 

Foreign I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under my masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Emily Maynard [00:00:00]: 

I think a big piece of it in the US Is a huge amount of personal financial education. Happens in one specific conservative or kind of fundamentalist Christian affiliated program and it’s marketed through churches. So not only are you getting moral education around money and wealth, but often churches are offering classes in one particular system that does tend to promote one size fits all. There is one way to manage money and it’s very shame based. It’s your fault you’re not achieving advancement or success. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:36]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:15]: 

Today’s guest is Emily Maynard. Emily is an LMFT in California and she particularly focuses her work on religious trauma and high control religious backgrounds. Today, Emily and I talk about high control religion. We talk about what it is, how it impacts people’s relationship with money, its connection to money shame, how those stories can continue to show up for you even after you maybe left a high control religious context. And we also talk about how high control religion specifically impacts our relationship to private practice and being in private practice and kind of the huge gap that exists between those kind of high control religious cultural contexts and the messaging you get there in private practice and the skills and the mindset that we need to develop to be successful in private practice. Here is my conversation with Emily Maynard. So, Emily, welcome to the podcast. 

Emily Maynard [00:02:16]: 

Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:18]: 

Yes, I’m excited to chat too. I know that what you live and breathe every day, what you teach about and talk about and put out into the world is actually a topic that I have very little personal experience with. But I know a lot of students, a lot of therapists who have had come through Money Skills for therapists have come from experiences of high control religions. And that definitely shows up in our conversation. So I’m excited today to dig into, you know, kind of the overlap between our worlds of like, you know, I think you talk about money all the time you think and talk about high control religion and its impacts. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna jam today and talk about how these things come together. So let’s start by defining these terms, like, what is high control religion? 

Emily Maynard [00:02:58]: 

Yes. So high control religion doesn’t refer to any specific church or theology or religious group, but it’s a structure of relationships. And cult scholars will talk about the spectrum of high control groups where there’s certain behaviors and organizations that are healthy. And then as we go along the spectrum towards a cult or high control group, you’ll see more rigidity, more. More fear of outsiders looking down on others, authoritarian structures, total compliance with a leader’s ideas, with the authority of God or scripture backing them up. And that comes with secrecy, abuse, harm, a lot of things behind the scenes for insiders in these organizations that might be perfect and polished on the outside. So we’re not talking about any specific religion, but a type of religious harm that occurs. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:51]: 

Yeah, it’s almost like the structure of a way that a group is being run. Yeah. And as you’re talking about that, like, I’m thinking about students I’ve had who’ve had experiences that with the Christian religions, but I’m also thinking about kind of pseudo cults that are like, in the city that I live in, where you’re like, that’s, that’s weird that they would, you know, ask you to participate in something like multiple evenings a week. It seems like they’re kind of trying to control your time, like. Yeah, I think that I’m curious because cults I know a little bit about and I find quite fascinating the psychology of cults. From what you’re saying, I’m understanding there’d be quite a spectrum of how many of these kind of behaviors are being implemented or built into the system. Tell me a little bit more about how you think about this. When does something become high control, I guess is the question. 

Emily Maynard [00:04:35]: 

Yeah, that’s a really specific. That’s usually a difficult point to manage. Usually when the leader, I mean, we see it. If you watch cult documentaries, there’s usually a point where it becomes. Comes from more of a mainstream group where people are free to come and go and interact with other people, with other belief systems. There’s usually a point where there’s a sort of lockdown and a certain sect of those people, a certain segment will become more isolated and really limited in their interactions with the outside world. There’s suddenly only one way to live, and it requires you being in the group and following all Those rules. And there’s usually a lot of shame that starts forming around there if you can’t live up to those ideals or you don’t decide to follow the leader further down the road. 

Emily Maynard [00:05:22]: 

So again, this can happen in any kind of organization. Right. We work in family systems for marriage and family therapists, and it’s a little bit of the same. There’s unhealthy behaviors even in unhealthy families, and we’re there to help the system become healthier. So a lot of my work is helping people understand which parts of their experience were harmful to them and contributing to their current symptoms and which parts of those experiences or values that they were raised with they want to keep with them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:50]: 

Right, yeah. Because generally it’s not all bad. 

Emily Maynard [00:05:53]: 

There’s going to be never all or. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:54]: 

Nothing in any group. Yes, of course. So, you know, shame, like something that I have been talking about and thinking about a lot with my community in the last couple years, is money shame. Right. Like this idea that sometimes our relationship with money is, is so heavy that there really is like a shame component. How do you see high control religion impacting money shame specifically? 

Emily Maynard [00:06:17]: 

Well, I think religion or religious experiences are often some of the first moral education we get as people. So not just from our families. You know, our families all have norms around money and resources. But if you’re involved in a church as a child, that’s some of the first ideas that you get around. Is it good to have money? Is it bad to have money? What ways do you. Should you show that you have money? Is money a blessing from God? Is money a trap that could cause you to sin? Ideas like greed, ideas like poverty, where there’s this explicit moral understanding of money, I think often really gets shaped in our early religious exposures or experiences. And for high control groups, there’s always very specific rules about money. High control groups always involve financial exploitation, labor exploitation, time exploitation, whether or not that’s somebody, you know, requiring that you give most of your money to the group and the leader also lives very simply. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:17]: 

We shun money in the outside world, or whether you give money to the group and the leader gets to live very lavishly to promote, you know, the ideas of the group. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:25]: 

Right. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:25]: 

Both are pretty harmful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:27]: 

Yeah, yeah. Because I think about money and power and how money is a way of having power in the world. It’s, it’s kind of a. An embodiment of power in a certain way. When you have money, you’re able to make choices, you’re able to exchange that money for different things, access, experiences. And it makes sense to me that in a high control religion context, money would always be involved. Because if people have control over their own money, they also have control over their own lives. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:52]: 

Exactly. They have freedom. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:54]: 

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I could see how inevitably somebody, if there is that tipping point in a group that wasn’t high control before, if they’re going to switch into a high control mode, money is going to be part of that. It sounds like, I would think, almost without exception. 

Emily Maynard [00:08:09]: 

Yes. Yeah. That’s one of the markers of a high control group. Is there going to evolve exploitation in some way of resources that people have? 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:16]: 

Yes. 

Emily Maynard [00:08:17]: 

When you mentioned shame, I think what comes up for me is that high control religion always involves shame, whether that’s around sexual purity. There’s a lot of people that I work with who grew up in purity culture, and they have shame around their relationships and sexuality or whether that’s, you know, what they want, their dreams. They have a lot of shame around that. Or there’s this idea of not living up to some perfection and that brings a lot of shame that I’m bad inside or there’s something wrong with me. And that can come up around any resource that we have, you know, any tool that we use. But I think it, it often comes up around money, too. That comes up in my work with people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:56]: 

Yeah. And shame, just as a, as a tool of control, it occurs to me that, you know, shame is a very powerful tool of control because if you can convince other people that there’s something inherently wrong with them, it’s going to be hard for them to get grounded and confident and clear of like, no, this is wrong. Right. Like, it almost seems to me like, you know, there’s going to be an assignment of blame in abusive situations in general. And if you can convince the people who are being abused that they are wrong, inherently wrong, then they’re going to have a really hard time questioning what’s happening to them. Is that, is that accurate or would you think about that differently? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 

Emily Maynard [00:09:31]: 

There’s also a lot of these groups that they don’t, they don’t explicitly say a lot of these beliefs. Like the way that I grew up in very fundamentalist, conservative Christianity in the US There weren’t a lot of things that were explicitly told to me, but there were a lot of norms that I internalized just by seeing who was elevated in the group, who kind of had issues and left. That taught me a lot about how I should behave, what it meant to be a good person. What it meant to be a part of this group. And so a lot of these messages, especially around money, aren’t necessarily explicit. They’re really subtle. But this sense of shame indicates to me there’s something there that happened that made you feel like if you continued on this path, you wouldn’t be able to be a part of the group either now or, you know, eternally in heaven. If that’s part of the group’s belief, yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:20]: 

Okay, so how then can high control religion impact people’s ideas about money? Like, how do you see that kind of playing out for people’s individual relationship with money when they’ve had these experiences, like, maybe even, you know, like you’re talking about after they’ve left that community? 

Emily Maynard [00:10:37]: 

So a lot of the people that I work with are deeply feeling, deeply caring people, and they had some reason why they needed to leave the group or shift their belief systems. And often I work with people who are years out of the group intellectually, but their bodies are still responding to certain things, whether that’s relationships, sexuality, or money, purpose in life, vocation, where they’re like, I don’t know why I’m still having this problem, but I am like, why do I freak out around these conversations? You know, why do I still have this scarcity mindset, even if my needs are met and I have some savings? And that’s often the work that we do is figure out, like, well, what were you really taught about this? What did you observe? Not just what did someone teach you, but what did you learn? Which is a very different kind of question. And really focusing on what did you see elevated? What. And then how do you bring your current moral or ethical positions into those conversations too? 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:40]: 

Yeah, yeah. That trauma piece is so powerful. And I see that with therapists that I work with too, where even if, you know intellectually you’ve moved on from something, these things are still so deeply embedded in our nervous systems. And as you’ve said, sometimes they’re not words like, there aren’t necessarily explicit things that we were taught, but we know we knew what was rewarded and we knew what would get us, like, in trouble or, you know, make us belong less. And so, yeah, that. That imprinting is so, so deep, you know, with trauma in general, but certainly with money, too. And like, what do you see as some of the common. The common ideas that people are still carrying years later around? Money? What are some of maybe the themes that come out of high control religion about money for people? 

Emily Maynard [00:12:25]: 

I sort of see two tracks in this one of Them is this idea of the suffering servant. So that the right way to be moral or good is to live very simply and to continue to give to a mission, whether that’s mental health. Right. And saying like, well, people really need my services and they don’t have access to it, so I must be the one to fix that. And it would be good and right for me to take on a bigger caseload than I have or continue to work with insurances that are not respecting my time, things like that. Or I see people, there’s this idea in high control religion of this prosperity gospel. So the idea that if I do good, I will receive blessing and ease in my life and I will have all these financial resources. And when that’s not happening, that must mean that I’m failing morally or that there’s some sort of misalignment in my spirituality rather than sort of understanding. 

Emily Maynard [00:13:26]: 

There are systems of power around money. There are systems, you know, capitalism has certain goals. White supremacy has certain goals about the exploitation of people and labor. And really I see people sort of stuck in these ideas that, you know, well, I should have financial ease or I should remain suffering and, and not get honest about what my family needs or what my business needs in order to be a good person. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:55]: 

Yeah. And that’s quite a gap between those two tracks. And obviously we’re talking about a whole range here of groups that have all sorts of different ways of thinking and talking. But certainly that sacrifice one I see a lot because I think already too, folks who are drawn to therapy and other forms of health care. 

Emily Maynard [00:14:18]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:18]: 

Already tend to be giving, caring, over giving types. So I can see how that trait combined with a religion that really. Or a belief system that really preaches to you that martyr role. It’s a lot to unwind there. Yeah, it’s a lot of the same message in different ways. Right. 

Emily Maynard [00:14:39]: 

I’ve met so many people who’ve left formal religious or church ministry and then they become therapists or mental health clinicians and they’re like, well, at least I’m only working six days a week instead of seven days a week. Or you know, they’re used to working till 7, 8pm and being on call in all these ways and they’re used to maybe overworking for underpay. And it’s easy to bring some of those ideas with us and be like, well, at least it’s not as bad as this other situation I’m in. Rather than figuring out like, well, what is healthy and sustainable for me and how do I build the Practices to achieve that in. In my business or in my group practice. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:17]: 

Yeah, it’s kind of funny. This is, this is a little bit of a joke, but maybe it’s not a joke. It does make me think about. There’s almost like, maybe this hierarchy is not the right word, but a scale of like high control religions, cults. You’re being exploited. Your time and energy is being exploited at all times. Agency, your time and energy is being exploited quite a lot. Private practice, we tend to start by exploiting ourselves, if that’s what we’ve known before. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:41]: 

And then eventually we have to figure, as you say, like, what is sustainable energetically and financially, what do we actually need? But yeah, there is that martyr kind of messaging is already strong in the healthcare space, even without high control religious messages. So I can also see that being quite comfortable and familiar for folks who come into this field. It’s like, oh, this aligns with what I know and is, as you say, slightly better. I have a day off or I’m not working 60 hours a week. I’m only working 40 for doing, you know, seeing clients. So yeah. And then that other side, the prosperity track, this is something that I’m not as familiar with because I think that this is. That kind of messaging tends to be more prevalent in the United States. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:23]: 

I’m Canadian and I don’t see or hear that as much here. So tell me a little bit more about that messaging and when it’s left, like, if you’re not prosperous, then. And again, these are beliefs that wouldn’t be necessarily conscious intellectual beliefs, but just like a deeply. You know, again, if this is your original kind of programming around money is the idea is that if you are not prosperous, something is wrong with you. You’re doing something wrong. Like what would be how that plays out for somebody if the money’s not. Not coming to them? 

Emily Maynard [00:16:55]: 

Yeah. So there are certainly religious groups and churches that make this very explicit. They are prosperity gospel churches. This is where you see pastors in the US Particularly, I’m sure it’s in Canada as well. But where you see people who have private jets and they’re like, God has blessed me so much. And also you need to send me a hundred dollars. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:13]: 

Of course, God will bless you too. Yes, yeah, yeah. 

Emily Maynard [00:17:18]: 

Very explicit about that. And then I think there’s a lot more subtlety. I mean, we could talk about sort of the American individualism and some of the principles that continue to shape our nation, but I think a big piece of it in the US Is a huge amount of personal financial education happens in one specific conservative or kind of fundamentalist Christian affiliated program and it’s marketed through churches. So not only are you getting moral education around money and wealth, but often churches are offering classes in one particular system that does tend to promote, you know, one size fits all. There is one way to manage money and it’s very shame based. You know, it’s your, your fault is you’re not achieving advancement or success by following these rules rather than sort of teaching people principles and helping them understand their current situation and how to apply some of those principles like high control groups or high control organizations or philosophies don’t want you to think for yourself. They’re not going to give you principles to guide you. They’re going to give you specific actions to follow and when those don’t work, they will blame you. 

Emily Maynard [00:18:33]: 

It must be your fault. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:36]: 

Right. And I do see and we will not name and I, you know the exact educational organization that you are referring to. But I certainly see a lot of shame specifically around debt, which would be kind of like the opposite of being prosperous. 

Emily Maynard [00:18:50]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:50]: 

Like having debt is a very shameful thing. And this is something that I see therapists coming into my program into money skills for therapists sometimes struggling with is they have become so focused on paying down debt that it’s so bad that they have debt. And specifically that’s usually like consumer debt, student loans. We tend, there tends to be less shame and charge around. But any kind of consumer debt folks are so focused on trying to make that go away because it must say XYZ about them. Like it’s so embarrassing and shameful that they have this debt that they do so kind of at their own financial peril today and focus so hard on paying down that debt that then they end up having to put money back on that credit card because they’re not giving themselves any breathing room. Right. Like it’s this kind of intense project to try to get out of debt and therefore get out of shame. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:36]: 

That is often at their own detriment. And is this part of kind of prosperity doctrine that like debt would be shameful like, or is this kind of a different, different school? I’m assuming these things go together. 

Emily Maynard [00:19:49]: 

Yes, it’s absolutely included in this idea that if you are following the rules, if you’re doing well morally, spiritually, that’s going to come with financial stability as well. Right. That really, if you’re doing the right things, right. You won’t have these problems like needing to use a credit card to provide for your family or have some basic resources or even a little bit of fun in your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:12]: 

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So how do you see it as, like, particularly challenging for folks to come from these high control religion contexts into, like, private practice? Right. Like, I see that we kind of. I was kind of joking earlier about this maybe path or hierarchy of, you know, control and private practice is a very different thing where we have to be making our own choices. What do you see as challenging about making the transition from this, like, high control background into being your own boss in a private practice? 

Emily Maynard [00:20:44]: 

I think even that making your own decisions is really hard for people who grew up in a system where they were told the right thing to do, always where that came through an authority structure. You know, from pastor to parents to children, they’re used to believing that there’s one right way and that somebody else is going to help them do that. Rather than starting from the ground up and developing the skills and values to be able to say, no, I can’t adjust my time schedule to fit in this client. Even when I really connect with them, I need to make sure they get to another clinician who can meet their scheduling needs. It’s really easy to, in these tiny little increments, to compromise your values. And that’s how you end up building yourself your own terrible agency. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:32]: 

Yes. 

Emily Maynard [00:21:33]: 

Because you’re waiting for somebody else to save you, when really the thing that will help you is to deal with the grief of saying, no, I can’t accommodate that fee. But let me get you to somebody who can to do the practice of the challenging relational practice of stating your fee and saying, you know, I really need to increase my fee. Let’s figure out how to do that. These are really tough decisions, and they’re constant. In private practice, they happen all the time because you’re the one doing everything. Or in a group practice, you are helping people make decisions that will help them function well in your business or not. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:13]: 

Yes. Yeah. In private practice, you are the one who’s in control. But yeah, I’m hearing for folks who’ve had these experiences that might be a very uncomfortable, unfamiliar place to be. 

Emily Maynard [00:22:23]: 

Yeah. And often we hear from people who are a little further ahead on the road who are like, yeah, my caseload’s full. You know, it’s pretty. It’s pretty great. And if you’re not in that place yet, it’s going to bring up a lot of those feelings of what’s wrong with me that I’m not there yet. Why don’t I have an Easy practice that you talk about or why is my marketing, like, so terrifying to me? Because marketing is all about being visible and telling people like, hey, I’m here and I can help with this specific thing. And that is frightening for people who grew up in communities where being singled out means you’re in trouble. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:01]: 

Yes, yes. So for folks who are listening right now who are like, yes, that is me, hands up, I came from that place. What would you suggest to them to start to heal from these experiences that they had? What are some starting places? 

Emily Maynard [00:23:16]: 

I think part of my healing and what’s helped me in, you know, personally and build my practice is that I had to get really realistic about what I can actually do. Again, I was raised with this idea, like, through Christ, I can do all things. And I had to, in building my practice, figure out how many clients can I actually see and be an ethical clinician and keep myself well back from the brink of making ethical or technical mistakes by working too much. That actually helped me make some of those decisions is I knew I didn’t want to hurt people in this work. I’ve met plenty of people who were hurt by their therapist or, you know, a spiritual leader or counselor before, and I knew I didn’t want to do that. So then I had to get really realistic about, like, well, how do I do that? That means I can’t be on the edge of burnout. That means I can’t be frustrated when a client, you know, cancels right before the window and I don’t get their fee that week. Like, I have to build a practice that doesn’t keep me needing something for my clients so I can be available to them. 

Emily Maynard [00:24:19]: 

So one thing that I think is really helpful, and it’s a little bit silly, is writing out your job description. Even if you’re in private practice, like, what tasks are you responsible for? What hours will you work, what salary will you get? And you can sort of do a before and after. Like, do that, what is it currently? And that’s going to reveal a lot about, would you accept this if somebody else was paying you this little money to work this many hours to do all these, like, high level responsibilities and deep clinical work and then figure out what job description and salary, what’s your offer that you would accept? And then figuring out with any programs like yours, how do you actually build some of those practices into your business? 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:03]: 

Yeah, I’m quite struck by that motivator of kind of not doing harm, because I’ve certainly thought and chatted with folks over the years about being honest, about the impact of overworking. You’re not showing up as your best self. And, and I talk about that because I think that’s a motivator for me is like, I always want to be doing my best. Right. Like, you know, making sure that that client at the end of the day is. Is getting as good of a session as a client at the beginning of the day as much as possible. Right. But that’s a very powerful motivator to also make sure you’re not hurting people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:30]: 

Right. That you are not, you know, as you say, making like, ethical mistakes or technical mistakes. Because I think that’s something that as a profession that’s already prone to. To martyrdom, even before this complex layer that you’re talking about, it can be easy for us to not really be honest about the impact of not holding our boundaries. Right. And so that’s very powerful. It’s kind of like it feels like it could be like a little bit of a gut punch for some people who have been hurt, you know, and don’t want to hurt. But that’s really motivating is like, you don’t want to be causing harm in the world to really be honest about. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:02]: 

Yeah, what is the cost of overworking and saying, yes, too much and yeah, having to work so many sessions a week and having that resentment. If somebody’s life comes up, there is going to be actually negative impact interpersonally from you not actually taking care of yourself. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. This was, like, very, very illuminating. It’s got my wheels turning in all sorts of ways. I’m thinking about all sorts of folks I’ve known over the years or folks that we’ve had in money skills for therapists. Can you tell us more about what you do? If people are listening and they’re like, oh, my gosh, I need to learn more. I need to be around this person. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:39]: 

Where can they find you? 

Emily Maynard [00:26:40]: 

Absolutely. The best way to find me is on Instagram. I’mardlmft. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist in California. I have a private practice, but it’s full right now. So you can also find me@emilymaynardtherapy.com and I’m starting to do some more speaking and training on a lot of these topics. So when I have those opportunities available, I’ll put them on my Instagram. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:03]: 

Wonderful. Great. Thank you so much for joining me today, Emily. I really learned a lot in this conversation with Emily today. As I mentioned, this is not an area that I have Personal experience, but certainly an area that I do see come up for therapists in money skills for therapists and in different ways in which high control religion has shaped their relationship with money. And I loved Emily’s point about how the messaging we receive is not always accepted. Explicit messaging about money in general is not always explicit, you know, but we absorb the information about what is going to be approved of, what is going to get us like love and belonging and status in these kinds of groups. And we absorb what is going to get us ostracized, right, or cast aside or maybe even make us have to, to leave the group that we are part of. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:00]: 

And, and the same can be true in families too, right? Even in families, as Emily mentioned, there can be high control aspects and we internalize and understand what is going to get us in trouble, right? What is going to make us belong less. So all these imprints on our nervous systems, all these deeply, deeply held beliefs that maybe were not ever verbalized, but we’re still absorbed and received. You know, we’re all walking around with a bunch of these. So if the information that Emily shared today has got you thinking about some of the messaging that you’ve received, this is a great chance for you to just sit and be with that and be curious about some of the stories that, that you’ve absorbed and question whether or not those are stories that you still want to believe. Now, do those align with your values today? Does that align with how you think life should actually work? Because so often these imprints that we have far outlive our actual current beliefs. So there’s always a gap, you know, between what we’ve absorbed and what’s sitting in our nervous system and where we are now intellectually. So lots and lots to explore here. Do check out Emily on Instagram. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:10]: 

We will put the link for her Instagram bio in our show notes so it’s easy for you to find. And thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling calm and clear and empowered about money, my free on demand masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances totally working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or you can go to moneynutsandbolts.com and click on Masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

Yeah. What do you see as the cost of hustle for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:00:03]: 

The constant needing to hustle. Yeah. The constant need. I can’t stop. I’m like the energizer bunny. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:10]: 

Yes. Yes. You can’t stop. And I’m curious. What is not happening for you while you’re focused on whatever you’re working on? While you can’t stop, what is not happening that could be happening if you were able to slow down? Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:49]: 

You’ll find the link in the show notes or at moneynutsandbolts.com under Masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Jenny Jonker. Jenny Jonker is a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Practice Owners, and she is the owner of Dragonfly Counseling and Wellness. Today, Jenny and I dig into how her immigrant story, that experience of survival and having to hustle, and continues to show up in her entrepreneurial journey. Today, Jenny shares about how hard it is for her to slow down, to get out of that hustle mode, and we dig into the roots of that, we look at the impacts of that, and we start to explore how to bring more presence into her life and her experience of her business. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:46]: 

I think this is so common for so many of us with, you know, our own variations of our past experiences keep us stuck in a place that is not the place that we are now. And that is certainly the case for Jenny. The space between where she came from and where she is now is a huge gap. So today we explore how to help her be more present in what she has built through the work that she’s done as a therapist with her group practice. Here is my coaching conversation with Jenny Jonker. So, Jenny, welcome to the podcast. 

Jenny Jonker [00:02:25]: 

Thank you so much. I’m so honored to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:28]: 

I am so excited to have you here. So, Jenny, for our time together today, what would be helpful for us to dig into? 

Jenny Jonker [00:02:36]: 

I’m starting to come to terms that my journey as a business owner and Entrepreneur is kind of being enmeshed with my immigrant story and how I was raised. And I think that that has a lot to do with my money mindset and being able to really be present of where I am and how my business is thriving and figuring out, you know, how to get past some of those, like, mindset hurdles. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:05]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:05]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:06]: 

And what are you seeing come up that, you know, is your immigrant story kind of popping up today? 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:11]: 

I feel like I. I’m constantly in the hustle. I’m really trying to be mindful and present and not getting caught up in the hustle so much, because when I do that, I lose sight of purpose. And one of the reasons why I opened up Dragonfly Counseling and Wellness was to honor my story and to be able to be present for people in a way that I wish that my family members had done so had. Had gotten that type of therapy, and also the way that I wish people had showed up for me. And so I really want to be able to honor that in a very unique way. But I find that when I’m stuck in the hustle, I lose sight of purpose. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:57]: 

Okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:58]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:58]: 

What happens when you’re in the hustle? What is that like for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:01]: 

I feel that I need more. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:05]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:06]: 

And I need more. I need more. And I don’t stop to see exactly how much I have built. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:13]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:13]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:14]: 

You’re always looking at the next thing that you need to get. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:16]: 

Yeah. And I think, too, you know, I come from. I’m an immigrant family. You know, we came to Canada as refugees and fleeing from war. And so survival was our top priority. We didn’t grow up talking about mental health. Our focus was staying afloat, working hard, pushing through. And I saw that through all my family had to work survival jobs, essentially. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:40]: 

You know, like, my mom was a surgical nurse at the military hospital in Nicaragua, and when we had to leave and come to Canada, her degree wasn’t transferable here. And so they had to work survival jobs. They worked on farms, tobacco, ginseng, all that stuff. And I actually ended up having to do the same thing, too. And so for us, it was really hard, and rest wasn’t something that we understood. Hustle was our default. And I. Even though that mindset has led me to where I am today, I think that that’s also one of the things that has come as a cost. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:18]: 

Yeah. What do you see as the cost of hustle for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:21]: 

The constant needing to hustle. Yeah, the constant. Can’t stop. I can’t stop. I’m like, the Energizer Bunny. Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:29]: 

Yes. You can’t stop. And I’m curious what is not happening for you while you’re focused on whatever you’re working on, while you can’t stop what is not happening that could be happening if you were able to slow down. 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:41]: 

I’m trying to be more mindful of it. Right. Like even transitioning and opening up my own clinic and getting it started the way that it started. And just I remember you saying you built Rome in a day and now you want it to be a throbbing monopolist. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:56]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:57]: 

And sometimes I joke about it and tell people about that comment that you made. Sometimes it’s hard for me to really sit in it and recognize how successful it actually has become. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:09]: 

Yeah. Because your, your story for folks who don’t have the pleasure of knowing you, like, I do. Like, you just started A group practice 6 1/2 months ago. And what is that looking like right now? 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:21]: 

We’re doing really good, you know, and even being able to say like, we’re doing really good and say it with like optimistically optimistic, Right. Or hesitantly optimistic, right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:31]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:32]: 

Because that immigrant part of me is like, is that enough? Is that enough? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:38]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:39]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:39]: 

I mean, if we zoom out on this a little bit, I’m curious, like I’m hearing, you know, this is your family story. This, this was, this was your parents experience of adulthood, right. Is they had to flee somewhere. They lost their status, like in terms of lost professional status, had to work these survival jobs. You also had to work some survival jobs. I think about that as a transition. Right. It’s like transitioning from one place where you did have establishment to a new place where. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:07]: 

And we could talk about that, where systems don’t recognize professionalism, which I think is a whole other fucked up thing. But this was your parents experience. What did your parents want for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:18]: 

You know, I remember growing up and my mom saying, education for you is the greatest success. Right. Like that is going to get you out of poverty. And the biggest legacy that I could ever leave you is leave you with an education. And so that for me has always been my driving force. You know, I have three degrees, I have a master’s, I have all of these other certifications under my belt. And now I have a practice, a thriving practice. And so that for me is, is the legacy that I leave behind for my parents. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:54]: 

Yeah, you’ve done the thing that I wanted for you. 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:56]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:57]: 

Yes. You’re doing the thing. 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:58]: 

I am. I’m doing the thing. Right. And. But it’s kind of learning to slow down and recognize that you have made it. And I even say you have made it with, like, hesitation, right? Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:12]: 

Because tell me what the fear of slowing down, what would happen for the part of you that’s afraid? We know there’s, like, other perspectives on this, but for the part of you that is worried or afraid, what would happen if you slowed down a little bit? 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:26]: 

The thought that came to mind was, I’ll become complacent. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:29]: 

Okay. Okay. Tell me more about that. 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:32]: 

Like, I’ll just. I’ll get stuck. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:36]: 

Okay. And where does that idea come from that if you slowed down, you would actually get stuck? 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:41]: 

I think it’s that constant needing to hustle. Right. And so if you’re not hustling, then you’re not moving, and if you’re not moving, then you’re stuck, right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:50]: 

Yeah. Like, I’m hearing they’re kind of like a black and white framing. 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:54]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:54]: 

It’s like you’re either, like, hustling, you’re going super hard, or you’re, like, not moving at all. 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:00]: 

Yeah. And starting my own practice wasn’t just a professional milestone for me. Like, starting my own practice was about breaking cycles. It was about breaking intergenerational trauma, the poverty, all of those things. Right. Like, it was building something of my own. And as a woman of color and being part of a marginalized community, you know, it felt like reclaiming my space, rewriting my narrative, and showing up in spaces that not a lot of people look like me, that show up. And so even though, like I said, like, our practice is going really good, we have four caseloads, we have a growing team, and I’m very proud of where it is. 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:43]: 

Sometimes the struggle feels like it’s just not enough. Right. Or sometimes the hustle feels like it’s not enough. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:50]: 

Yeah. Yeah. Because that. The hustle, then when would that part be satisfied? Like, what? What is enough? 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:58]: 

I don’t know. And I think that that’s part of. That’s why I say it’s an ongoing thing for me. And I’m starting to really recognize that. And being an immigrant and having my own history and the way that I grew up, I think has really informed my practice and how I show up with clients and how I want to create this space with intention and be able to share my story and my experiences of hardship and poverty with clients in a way that helps them have hope. Perhaps that might be my Enough. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:33]: 

Okay. Yeah. Because if that is the enough, how close are you to that place? 

Jenny Jonker [00:10:39]: 

I think I’ve done it. Yeah. Like even yesterday I was having a, a conversation with a client and there was a lot of shame around their money story and not knowing how to use their finances. And we work primarily with indigenous populations and it was sharing some of my stories of how when I went to university and that I didn’t know how to use finances. I had no idea, you know, I racked up credit cards and did all that stuff. And so being able to share that experience of there’s no shame in it really helped to bridge that gap. And for them to also recognize that it’s okay, there’s really no shame in it. So I think being able to use my personal experiences as a place where there’s that commonality with clients has really helped. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:31]: 

Yes. So I’m gonna ask you now to slow down and sink into that experience yesterday, thinking about not just that conversation and your ability to use your own experiences, excellent use of self, by the way, but also the container that you’re doing it within. You know, you’ve created a group that is very much like your vision, your values, Serving the folks that you thrive in serving and helping them thrive. Thinking about that conversation yesterday and all the things that are built around it that made it possible. What do you notice? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:04]: 

I think that I was able to really connect with that individual in a way that not a lot of people can. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:12]: 

So I’m going to ask you to sink into that a little bit more because I’m hearing, I think is up here sinking down into your body. What is it like to be with that interaction you had yesterday? What do you notice in your body? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:24]: 

I think there’s a sense of relief and satisfaction that I’m able to, to do that and to show up in, in those spaces with people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:33]: 

Okay, relief, satisfaction. 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:36]: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:37]: 

Are there any other emotions in the mix there? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:40]: 

Calmness, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:43]: 

Because what I’m. What I’m noticing even in this conversation today is you’re so like head, head led when it comes to this stuff. It’s like I think this and I think that and, and you’re fucking brilliant. So the things you’re thinking are wonderful. Right. But it’s like there’s still this very much like, almost like I’m seeing like your head, like pulling your body along for the ride. Does that kind of image resonate? 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:06]: 

Oh, for sure, for sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:08]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:08]: 

Like, I have such a deep rooted scarcity mindset that it, it creeps in so many different ways and it just keeps saying, keep building, keep, keep providing, keep doing. And I think slowing down sometimes feels unsafe. Sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:25]: 

Yeah. Yeah. And what. What is unsafe about slowing down? 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:29]: 

What if it all goes away? 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:30]: 

Okay. Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:32]: 

And I know that even my clinic, the. Like, the Dragonfly, all of it, that there’s so much of me and my story, and the reason why I started it, to honor my nephew, is also highly linked to it, too. And so there’s so much attached to it that. That’s also. If I keep. If I stop hustling, that’s where the. What if it all goes away? But I’m already here. I’m already doing the thing that I sought out to do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:02]: 

Yes. Yes. And it’s working. 

Jenny Jonker [00:14:04]: 

It’s working. Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:06]: 

Can you hear yourself say that? That it’s working? 

Jenny Jonker  

[00:14:09]: 

Mm. Yeah, I do 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:13]: 

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you notice hearing that again? 

Jenny Jonker [00:14:17]: 

It’s, like, hesitantly optimistic. And so I’ve started to actually just sit in the space that I have, because it is mine, and it is very. There’s parts of him everywhere in that space. You know, Like, I have his diploma, and I have. Beside his diploma, I have a sign that says, she believed she could, so she did. And so sometimes even when I come into the space before all the girls come in, I just walk around in silence, or I’ll just sit there, and I’ll be like, good morning. Right. And so I’m very intentional, and I try to, like, really slow it down so that I know that that space is mine and so that I know that I’m safe and I know that it’s okay to be in that space because it is all mine. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:06]: 

Yeah, it is. Now, this makes me curious about the rest of your life. Right. Because I know you hustle, which makes you busy, and I know you also have high capacity, which I think really needs to be acknowledged. Right. Like, I think we all have different hustle capacity. Your capacity, I would say, is quite a bit higher than my capacity, which also means, like, what we’re able to do is different. We have to do different math as we’re thinking about these things. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:29]: 

Right. But I am thinking about, you know, your. Your parents brought you here to help you get. When I hear education, I hear, like, stability. There’s, like, a class piece to education, right? Where you have access to certain professional jobs, which gives you a certain life. Tell me about how your life is feeling right now. 

Jenny Jonker [00:15:50]: 

Good. I mean, I think now I’m starting to just do things even within my own private life. Like, you know, for the longest time, it was getting a pool at our house, and always that, like, what if it. What If I don’t have enough, what if I can’t do it? Blah, blah. And now it’s just like, you know what? I’m just gonna fuck it. I’m gonna do it, and we’ll figure it out after. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:16]: 

Right? 

Jenny Jonker [00:16:17]: 

And so we’re in the process of building a deck now. We have a nice pool. Like, we’re doing the things. Because when you’ve been bereaved, when you have had a lot of loss and, you know, even from the moment that we landed on that we came to Canada and stepped foot in this country, we were bereaved because we had a loss. And so my whole entire life has been about loss and bereavement. Right. And I think that that has taught me to live life with intention and to do the things regardless of how hard the struggle is. Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:16:51]: 

And so even building the pool and doing all those things, I really started to become more present and recognize that you’ll figure it out. It will be okay. Right. Even though you’re doing this thing, scared you’re still just gonna do it? Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:08]: 

Yes. And what does that represent to you, the pool and the deck? 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:12]: 

Accomplishments. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:14]: 

It’s accomplishment. It’s like a certain, like, lifestyle kind of level or something else. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:20]: 

Accomplishment. And. Yeah, I mean, it’s. It’s being able to say, like, I guess, too, having a visual representation of how hard I’ve worked and to be like, I can. I can now I’m in a place where I can afford this. Like, I don’t have to go and work in tobacco fields in order to afford this anymore. Right. Like, I could do this and I will be okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:43]: 

We can take trips and we will be okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:46]: 

Yeah, I think you’ll be more than okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:48]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:49]: 

What I’m thinking about as we’re talking is, like, there really is this shift that takes time, and it is hard to make between survival and living and thriving. I wouldn’t say it’s kind of like, in terms of business, you are moving into that thriving space, and you’re moving kind of at rocket speed, because that’s the speed at which you move, which I know from knowing you. Like, you know, from. From the time we started working together in money skills. Money skills for therapist, the solo course to now is not that much time. And a lot has changed for you. You’ve done a lot. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:21]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:22]: 

So you. You’re able to move quickly to build your businesses. You’re smart, you’re competent, you learn, you apply things. But it’s like your nervous system is still back in that surviving Place. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:35]: 

Yeah. I find that sometimes, like, it’s hard for my brain to recognize that, like, this is where I am, because it keeps thinking that this is where you were before. And so it hasn’t caught up yet, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:50]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:51]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:51]: 

It makes me think about, you know, time, orientation, you know, with. With trauma, and, like, actually being able to be here and sitting where you are right now, which, you know, folks who are listening can’t see this because we’re. We’re not going to do video for this episode, but Jenny has this gorgeous sunroom, which I always find very inspiring when I see you sitting here. And she showed me, before we started recording her backyard with this new pool and the deck that’s being built and all these, like, gorgeous green trees. You sitting there now. Can I ask you to take a moment, to take in the fact that this is yours? This is the life that you are building and have built. This is your place. 

Jenny Jonker [00:19:31]: 

No, that’s crazy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:32]: 

Yeah. What do you notice taking that in and give it a second. You just moved at Jenny speed. And ask you to slow down just a little more. Slow down and take it in. You have built all this. This is yours. This is your home. 

Jenny Jonker [00:19:48]: 

The holy fuck moment. Holy crap. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:57]: 

And I’m curious, like, what parts of you are surprised by it? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:01]: 

A little immigrant girl. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:03]: 

Yeah. Yeah. Is that a part of you that you’ve done trauma work with, or emdr? Oh, yeah, for sure, it’s a part, you know. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:10]: 

Well, yeah, my younger part of self. Right. I call her little one. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:14]: 

Little one. Okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:15]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:16]: 

And does little one know about your business that you’ve built? Does she know about the group and the work that you do? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:23]: 

Oh, yeah. Right. Like, I think even doing the transition and the shift from doing, you know, having a partnership to. To now being solo practice, I mean, to. To now being group practice on my own, there’s a lot of work that I had to do with her. A lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:40]: 

You’ve definitely done a lot of the. The hard things to get to where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:44]: 

Oh, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:45]: 

A lot of the scary things. Yeah. So what does this part of you think about this life that you’ve built? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:53]: 

I don’t think she ever thought she could. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:55]: 

So there’s still that, like, surprise, disbelief. What is it? Is there acceptance there and, like, ownership? 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:02]: 

I think she’s excited to get into that pool 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:04]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:07]: 

No, yeah. You know, I think it’s. I think I know that when I’m in the hustle and when I feel that I need to keep Going, I know that that’s my younger part of self that comes out because she’s the one that was held back. She’s the one that needed to prove herself in a world where she doesn’t look like the rest. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:32]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:33]: 

In a world where you’re the minority and you’ve got to hustle for your sense of self worth. And I think I’m at the point where my, you know, older part of self says, hey, it’s okay. We’ve made really great choices up to now. And I got you. Right. Like, I’ve got you. It’s okay. It’s okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:52]: 

And sometimes I, like, stop myself and I tell myself that and I hold my heart and I say, we’re okay. We’ve got this. Right. And I think it’s taken a lot for me to get to that place. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:03]: 

And it’s. It’s a process. Right. Like, it’s like, you are your life. Up until now, so much of it was defined by this, like, survival and having to fight for your place and that immigrant legacy. Right. Like, that’s. That’s been most of your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:22]: 

And like, proportionally, if we think about it, what portion of your life do you feel like you’ve really started to. To have that full sense of, like, agency effectiveness? I can build what I want. What portion of your life has been that? 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:36]: 

I’d probably say that’s been something that’s recent. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:39]: 

Like how recent? 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:41]: 

Since I went on my own. Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:43]: 

So that was eight months ago, six months ago. 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:47]: 

@ this point, I really started to really step into it and started to really take ownership of things because I realized I’ve worked really hard to get to where I am now, and I’m at the point in my life where I don’t need to eat it anymore. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:01]: 

Yes. Okay, so quick math. I’m just going to round. I’m going to say that that’s probably about 2% of your life that you’ve been in this place, and 98% was getting you up to that place. So it makes a lot of sense that there’s still going to be this old pattern, an old way of doing things, because statistically speaking, this is very, very new. Right. But also, it occurs to me that, you know, by that same logic, the more time that passes, the more and more and more of your life will be life spent in this place where you’ve been able to see kind of the fruits of your labor. 

Jenny Jonker [00:23:36]: 

Yeah. And I think it’s. It’s nice to be able to see the fruits of My labor and to see how hard I’ve worked to get here and to allow myself to be in those spaces, to be present. And I think that’s something that I’m really working on is to allow myself to be present. Yeah. And that’s. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:54]: 

That’s the curiosity that I have now at this point in the conversation is like, how do you give yourself more of. Of that? Like, I’m hearing you already have developed some practices around being present, like letting yourself really be present in the morning when you go into your space. What else can be integrated into your life to give yourself more and more of those experiences of just being exactly where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:24:14]: 

It’s interesting because I use this technique with clients all the time and I tell them about. You know, there was moments where when I first moved into. To this house and my kids were playing on the playground and my husband was, like, playing around with a dog and everything, and I was like, oh, my gosh, things are good. And I was like, good job. We have this beautiful home. Everything’s great. And then all of a sudden, I had this just like, anxiety come over me. And that’s the foreboding joy of, holy shit, something bad is going to happen. 

Jenny Jonker [00:24:47]: 

And the reality is, when you have had a lot of trauma or have had a lot of bereavement in your life, that foreboding joy is very real. Right. Because you. You go into this mindset that things like this don’t happen to people like me. Right. And so a technique that I. That I. I always use is that when I am in moments of happiness and rejoice and things are great, I close my eyes and I count to three, and I say, when you open your eyes, it means that you are really here, that you deserve this, and that this is where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:28]: 

Right. And I will open my eyes. And sometimes, to be honest, it’s scary to open my eyes, but that helps me to become present and it helps my brain to recognize. No, this is actually happening to you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:40]: 

Can we do that now? 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:41]: 

Sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:42]: 

Okay. Do you want to coach yourself or do you want me to talk you through that? 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:45]: 

You can talk me through it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:47]: 

Okay. Okay. So close your eyes. We’re going to count to three, and when you open your eyes, you’re going to be able to really take in that this is where you are, this is yours. 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:58]: 

You’ve built this pretty cool. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:02]: 

What emotions are you noticing? 

Jenny Jonker [00:26:03]: 

I’m happy. I really am happy. I’m very grateful. I’m very grateful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:10]: 

And I encourage you to keep giving yourselves more Experiences of that. And I think too also, as you build up the practice, starting to build the practice to make sure that you’re getting good amounts of time off, starting to look at your schedule. Cause I think that I’m also thinking about your business. There are gonna be these next level steps that you’re able to put in place as the business gets into that more of a hum where you’re like, okay, we’ve been in this place now for like a year and a half. I can breathe. You know, the buffers are there. All those practical things that we’ve worked together on in money skills for practice owners. You’re also gonna be able to build bigger sections of time where you just get to be whatever that is for you, whether that’s travel or just having some time at home or always taking Friday afternoons off. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:51]: 

Do you have a sense of what some of that could be for you as you continue to build out the business? 

Jenny Jonker [00:26:55]: 

I am starting to be more mindful of my schedule, setting certain days, especially with the summer and the kids, and setting time aside for them. I’m really trying to be more mindful of that and taking vacation. Even though in the back of your mind you’re like, should you do that? Blah, blah. It’s like, no, I have to. It’s not whether should you or not. It’s that I have to. Right? And the grounding and being like, no, it’s okay. Like, you don’t constantly need to hustle. 

Jenny Jonker [00:27:25]: 

Like, it’s, you’re okay. And I think, like I said, like, that goes back to I know where it comes from. I know that it’s my immigrant story. I know that it’s that the fear that if I don’t hustle, then it will all go away. And that’s just the foreboding joy. I know that. And it’s just slowing myself down. Slowing it down. 

Jenny Jonker [00:27:45]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:46]: 

Because it sounds like that is one of the antidotes to the foreboding joy that you’ve identified in your own clinical work is just like, just slowing down and being with and noticing and something else that comes to mind. Another, like, clinical phrase is the positive affect tolerance, which I know for me in my life has been something I’ve really had to work on, that it’s actually like, it’s okay to feel good and it’s okay. And like, when we’re not used to that, that’s actually a new skill to build too. Right. It’s just to be able to be with the good and not have that mean that you Know as that logic in our brain can be, it’s good. Therefore something bad is going to happen. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:20]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:20]: 

But like, this is real nervous system retraining that you’re doing now 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:24]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:25]: 

That you can do from the place that you’ve built. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:27]: 

Yeah. And it’s taken a lot of work to get to that place and slowly for surely sometimes it’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it, but I know that it’s something that I. That I have to do because I have purpose. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:42]: 

So, Jenny, coming towards the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:46]: 

That I am okay. I am okay. I’m in a really good place and I’m very grateful to say it and I shouldn’t be afraid to say that I am in a good place. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:55]: 

And you’ve worked hard to get here. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:57]: 

And I’ve worked really hard to get here. Very hard. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:00]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:00]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:01]: 

Right. Jenny, before we finish up, I’m curious for some folks listening, they’re going to be, you know, maybe they’ve been around in my world for a while and they’re like, one day, maybe I’ll take Money Skills for Therapists. Do you have any thoughts or anything you want to share about your experience with Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners? Maybe for somebody who really identifies with you who would be listening. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:22]: 

Honestly, like, before I took the course, I had no idea. Like, I was scared of taxes. I would, like, taxes would come around and I’d be like, oh, my God, I’m like freaking out. And it’s interesting because this is the first year that I didn’t, like, freak out about taxes. I was okay. And I was actually talking to my bookkeeper about it. And before I used to be like, oh, it’s a write off. It’s a write off. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:47]: 

And now I’m like, okay, show me the P and L sheet. Show me this, show me that. Like, what are the metrics? All this stuff. And I’ve just grown substantial. And honestly, if it wasn’t for your courses, I don’t think I would have made the leap of faith that I did and be in the place that I am now. And I will forever be grateful for it because I think I really found myself in this course. Thank you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:10]: 

Thanks for sharing that, Jenny. And I am amazed by you always. You are a force of nature. And also I’m excited for you to develop the ability to just enjoy what you’ve built, too. 

Jenny Jonker [00:30:20]: 

Thank you. Thank you. I’m so appreciative of you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:23]: 

Thanks, Jenny. 

Jenny Jonker [00:30:27]: 

Foreign. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:29]: 

I’m so happy that Jenny joined me on the podcast today. She is a true force of nature in the money Skills for group practice owners course. A couple times I, you know, would introduce her on calls as like the incomparable Jenny Jonker. Because Jenny is an incredibly high capacity person who can achieve a lot in a short period of time. And I, I realized in doing that, and Jenny and I were chatting about this a little bit after our recording, I am also, also kind of like feeding into that hustle side, right? So when we are in this like business building space and when we are kind of on the achiever side of things, it’s easy for us to really validate other people’s abilities to build huge things because it is awesome and amazing. But also as Jenny was talking about, it’s so important too, when you are that kind of person to actually be able to stop and be present and enjoy what you’ve built. Because otherwise kind of like, what’s the point if we can’t actually enjoy what we’ve built, if we can’t actually be present in the life that we’ve created, then to our nervous system, it’s like it’s not even really real. You know, we’re still in that past place, we’re still in that, that childhood and that survival space. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:37]: 

So I’m continually impressed by Jenny and also really excited for her to continue to develop her skills, to be able to actually sit back and enjoy that pool and take those vacations and slow down and really be in her body and take in all the benefits of the amazing things that she has built. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of money sales for therapists. If you like, Jenny are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered about money, my On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:00:00]: 

Again, I’ve run very successful Google Ads campaigns, but Google itself is a selfish and unreliable partner. They could change something like that, their policies, and they’re not going to tell you about it. It’s just going to happen. All of a sudden your ad groups are down and you’re just kind of left in the dust. And we’re not high spenders, therapists, right? We’re not like these other companies that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad spends every month, right? Maybe a couple thousand dollars. So we’re not, we’re not Google’s priority, right? So that always freaks me out a little bit when working with Google. And that’s kind of why, like SEO, we’re kind of like behind the scenes more kind of like, how are they working? Because I don’t work for them. I don’t even work with them. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:00:44]: 

I kind of work against them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:48]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm play, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:09]: 

Before we jump in, check out my. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:10]: 

Free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:23]: 

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Kristie Plantinga. She is a mental health marketer who lives in Colorado. She’s the founder of Place Digital, which was formerly known as Therapy SEO and is a marketing agency that serves specifically therapists and coaches. Today, Kristie and I talk about the digital marketing space. We get into SEO and Google Ads and who are those for and how do they work? We talk about the importance of Google in terms of the way that folks access the Internet and the importance of being able to work with Google as it is. We talk about return on investment both. We talk about how soon you can expect to see a return on your investment when you are spending money on marketing, but also how do you calculate return on investment and how do you know whether somebody who’s come to you has actually come from this marketing activity or that marketing activity? And we also talked about the best forms of marketing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:17]: 

Whether you are just starting your solo practice or growing a solo practice or growing a good practice, there’s different levels of marketing that Kristie suggests, which is really helpful to hear. Here’s my conversation with Kristy Plantinga. So, Kristie, welcome to the podcast. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:02:41]: 

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:44]: 

I am excited for this conversation, too. I feel like I have a lot that I can learn from you, and I’m planning to learn from you during this conversation. No pressure. Just so you know about the marketing space, because this is certainly not my favorite part of business. And I’ve joked before when I go to, like, hire a marketing coordinator that I’m always like, so you like marketing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:03:04]: 

I don’t believe you. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:06]: 

I’m like, are you safe? Like, blink once if you need help because it’s certainly not what lights me up. I mean, I love doing this podcast, which is a certain kind of marketing activity, but that general kind of world, I think, is certainly not where my strengths are. Right. So it’s always, like, lovely to talk with folks who have just, like, different brains, different strengths, like different passions. And marketing for therapists is what you do. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:03:30]: 

Yeah, it’s all I do. You know, we work with therapy practices and rehab centers, but we’re solidly in the mental health space. As unique as it is, as ever changing it is, we specifically focus on website design, but SEO primarily. So all our wagons are hitched to the Google horse, you know, so it’s interesting to see how the healthcare industry and how people search and how Google wants people to search and how Google wants to make money, how that interacts with how my team does what we do to get our clients to grow their businesses. So it’s all very interconnected. And, yeah, I love it. So that’s why I’m here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:10]: 

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it really does make me think, like, it kind of is like Google’s universe and we just live in it at this point. In terms of the Internet, they really are like the gateway to the Internet. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:04:22]: 

I mean, it’s definitely, I think, the most used platform across all demographics, all ages, and it’s never going anywhere. I think there’s always a lot of panic, you know, oh, my gosh, people are using TikTok more in ChatGPT. Totally. Those things are search engines. And it’s always something that my team and I think about and how we can incorporate to the work that we do. But one reason that I think Google is always a solid investment is they are so motivated to make search work because it is at least 90% of their revenue comes from mostly Google Ads. But still, the Search engine as a whole, that’s really their money maker and they’re one of the biggest companies in the world, so they’re motivated to make it work. Right. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:05:08]: 

So I think there’s always going to be a path forward on Google for therapists. But as you know, the AI overviews come out. I think it’s called AI Mode or something that they’re experimenting with now. It’s all going to be change and different, but the core principles of how I think people will be ranked will stay similar because this is like an algorithm that’s been developing for decades. So of course they’re going to have crazy algorithm updates. In my team, we just observe and figure it out for a while. But yeah, Google’s not going anywhere. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:43]: 

Yeah, I know. If I think about my own Internet usage, Google is the way into the Internet for me. And I’ve started using Google Gemini also to play especially for accounting questions. I would love to have an accountant that just lives on the couch behind me that I could just ask my questions of like, okay, wait a second, so on the balance sheet, how would this kind of transaction show? So my backup is Google Gemini. I get to ask it accounting questions, which is still Google. They certainly dominate the space and there’s a lot of money and a lot of really, really smart people who are very invested in making sure that it stays the number one search engine. So, yeah, certainly lots to be said about making Google work for you. So something Kristy, that I see a lot with group practice owners, specifically where they have to make sometimes some really big decisions around marketing, like which marketing path they’re going to go down, how much they’re going to spend as they’re trying to fill not just themselves, but many clinicians. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:42]: 

As solo practitioners, our responsibility, our need is to fill ourself. To fill one clinician as group practice owners, they may need to fill 10 clinicians or 20 clinicians. So there’s these really big decisions they have to make about marketing. As we even just think about the kind of like investment side. How much should group practice owners, group practices be investing in their marketing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:07:06]: 

Yeah, and it’s such a tough thing to think about, right, because every practice is different, every market is different. So I could never come up with an exact figure. But what I will say is I’ve noticed a cycle, I think for group practice owners that they can sometimes fall into. And, and that’s where, you know, they’ll maybe they don’t really have a ton of marketing in place. Maybe it’s their own reputation or maybe a Facebook post in a local group kind of takes off. And then they get this flurry of inquiries. Great. But they realize they need to hire someone to accommodate those people. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:07:44]: 

So they hire someone. But that flurry of inquiries just isn’t enough to fill that caseload. And so then they’ll kind of, oh, oh, shoot, I need to do some marketing here really quick to fill this person’s caseload. But a lot of times those kind of smaller ad hoc investments don’t really pan out. And so either maybe they’ll get another client or two for their employee, or maybe they’ll just kind of be out of, you know, on the investment altogether. And those things certainly add up, you know, five or ten thousand dollars here over time. That really adds up if you think about it. And then by the end of it, they, you know, start with this company, they invest however much, and then a lot of times, like, they’re not even full. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:08:29]: 

Like the clinician isn’t even full. So then the clinician has to make the tough decision, hey, I can’t do this. I have a family, I have a livelihood that I need. So they leave and then the cycle starts again. Right. So I definitely think if you want, you know, sustainable growth, thinking about. I’m not thinking about my practice surviving the next six months. I’m thinking about how this is going to be my life and my lifestyle and my business for. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:08:54]: 

For five years. I think investments should more reflect that. Could I just spread this out kind of ad hoc over time, or should I just commit to something and work with a company that I really trust and they have results that they can show me that this has worked? I’m more partial to that just because I think so much a part of owning any business, definitely a group practice, is that founder wellbeing. That’s also kind of a meter that can run very, very low. Oh, yeah, if you’re always experiencing this. Because I understand not liking marketing, believe me, I have felt that many times when people come to our doors, they’re like, I don’t want to do this. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:30]: 

But we get it. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:09:32]: 

You know, we’re not everyone’s favorite, favorite people to contact. But I think just for peace of mind and actual sustainable growth over time, it’s profitable. That’s not going to drive you crazy when you’re thinking about your business in the future. It’s better, I think, to just really commit to something. Go all in again with a company you trust that has a proven track record, and then do that instead of just 5,000 here, 5,000 here, 5,001 here. It’s probably not going to work, or it’s just going to take you a really long time to get where you want to be. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:05]: 

I mean, it sounds like the difference between a reactive approach and a proactive approach. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:10:10]: 

Exactly right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:11]: 

If you want to be in this business long term, if you’re not planning to close your doors in six months, then what is this work that has to happen ongoingly to create that ongoing demand for your services? And in a business mastermind that I’m in, somebody the other day said, whenever things are quiet now, she thinks about, what was I not doing six months ago? And I was like, that is very interesting because, yeah, there is a long game here too with marketing. Right. Like, it’s not always this fast thing. And I think with Google Ads, I’m curious your perspective on this. With Google Ads, what I do see is there can be this illusion. Maybe it’s not an illusion, but it can be more instant gratification, feeling where you’re like, I spent this. I got this. This is my results 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:52]: 

And I certainly know for us, when our Facebook ads have been working, it’s like that. It’s like, I spent 5,000, I made 20,000. Like, wow. It almost feels like a machine that you’re just like putting money in and you put $1 in, $4 comes out. That’s not very typical, though. And I’m curious, what do you tend to tell folks about setting expectations for time frames or how do you think about marketing and when we should expect to see returns from the activities that we’re doing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:20]: 

Yeah. And, you know, marketers love to say it depends, especially people, you know in the SEO field. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:27]: 

Yes, of course. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:28]: 

You know, therapists like to say that too. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:29]: 

So everybody says that. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:33]: 

But, you know, I think it depends primarily on the type of marketing that you’re doing. You’re right. With kind of the advertising, whether it’s meta ads or Google Ads, it does feel a little bit like a slot machine. Kind of. You put it in and like the lever and then, ooh, it worked. Or maybe it didn’t. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:48]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:48]: 

And my only thing with Google Ads, I know some group practices. They just do Google Ads. They’re happy. They love it. No notes. My issue. Google Ads that I’ve experienced, and this isn’t to say it’s the same for everyone. Again, I’ve run very successful Google Ads campaigns, but Google itself is a selfish and unreliable partner. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:10]: 

They could change something like that, their policies. And they’re not going to tell you about it, it’s just going to happen. All of a sudden your ad groups are down and you’re just kind of left in the dust. And we’re not high spenders, therapists, right? We’re not like these other companies that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad spends every month, right? Maybe a couple thousand dollars. So we’re not, we’re not Google’s priority. Right. So that always freaks me out a little bit when working with Google. And that’s kind of why like SEO, we’re kind of like behind the scenes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:42]: 

How are they working? Because I don’t work for them, I don’t even them, I kind of work against them. Right. We’re like very scrappy people on my team. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:50]: 

So we kind of that, you know. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:52]: 

Like we like the feeling of kind of figuring it out and on Google and their wins and stuff. And we do to a certain extent because it’s our job. But I think again, especially with a group practice, because you just have so much more responsibility in terms of the livelihoods, the families that you’re supporting, thinking about something more sustainable, more long term is the way to go. SEO, traditionally, yeah, that can have a longer turnaround, but there are certainly things that at least my team does where we can, you know, get people, clients, certainly within a couple months. And sometimes that’s typical for a Google Ads campaign as well. If it takes time to kind of figure out the market, optimize the campaign, tweak the landing page, who knows. So I think timelines can actually be similar with SEO if you’re doing certain things, which is something that my team always prioritizes because we know that it’s not fun to have to wait for results and it doesn’t feel good when you’re spending money and you’re not getting that fun slot machine back. You don’t get that with SEO necessarily. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:13:57]: 

But I just always encourage practice owners to think about, let’s not think about where you want your practice to be in three months, although that can be very exciting. And there’s lots of stuff we can do during that time. But what about one year from now? Where do you want to be? So I think it’s more about perspective in terms of that. But when you’re working with a marketing company, because it really is all about results. It’s about, did I get a return on the investment that I put into this? It’s the most important thing really, when you’re working with a marketing company. A lot of times I see marketing companies do this and then of course, you know, the therapists or other clients that come to them focus on this as well. It’s kind of this deliverables focus. What deliverables am I getting? How many pieces of content am I getting? How many backlinks am I getting? Stuff like that. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:14:44]: 

More focus on, like, what is. What are you actually gonna get me in the result? Because I could create you 12 pieces of mental health content within an hour within AI. Right. Or I can make you one really, really good one. So let’s not compare deliverables because it’s more about what’s ranking, what’s working. So that’s kind of where I’m. I’m really just big on is who are you working with and what are this kind of outcomes they’ve seen for practices like yours? What are the things that they’re seeing working now? Have they updated their strategies in the last year, which is important? Like, minimum a year, we update our strategies. It feels like every three months at this point, just because of Google. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:15:22]: 

So, yeah. Not an exact idea on timelines, but I would say with Google Ads, probably within two months, and with SEO, within six months, you should be seeing traction. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:32]: 

Yeah, yeah. Which is helpful to know in terms of setting your patience and expectations appropriately. Right. Because again, I think the instant gratification has permeated our culture. We’re so used to like, oh, here’s something on Amazon. Oh, it showed up the next morning before I even got out of bed. There has been this real distortion of the idea of kind of cause and effect and marketing. I mean, an analogy that I like to use when I think about marketing is like, you’re planting seeds, and seeds don’t come up right away 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:03]: 

But when you plant lots of seeds, it’s amazing how many of them do come up, you know, within like six months, a year. I have folks sometimes that are around listening to the podcast and on my email list for four years before it’s the right time for them to buy. Right. And every time that I’m putting something out to them that, like, resonates and helps them feel like, oh, yeah, this person really could help me when the time is right. I’m maintaining that connection. But if I was looking for instant results, I would be disappointed because that’s just not really how I think business works in the long term. So I love that emphasis that you have on thinking about five years, because I’ve certainly experienced that being in the business now for five years. I see so many returns on things that I did years and years ago. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:45]: 

But at that time it seemed like nothing was happening. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:16:48]: 

Yeah. And there probably was not anything happening. Exactly. Like you said, it’s a seed, it’s all underground. But I also think for people who want to even this is for solo and group practices alike. We are in a competitive market. Right. So I think luck favors the bold. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:17:09]: 

So are you going to do the kind of same cop out stuff that everybody else is doing? Who’s afraid? And I get it. But the practices that I’ve worked with, who make their marketing and probably most of their business decisions based on fear, I don’t see many of them making it, frankly. And we’ve worked with lots of people, so it’s scary to. I think just working with a marketing agency can be very vulnerable in the sense that you’re just kind of putting your trust in someone, which is always scary. You’re putting an investment, but also in something that you don’t understand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:43]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:17:43]: 

And you’re just kind of like, okay, I’m just gonna hand this off. I get it’s terrifying. Right. And so I, you know, endless empathy for that. But if you’re making all of your business and marketing decisions out of fear, I think in this market it’s not going to look good for you. Just, just from my experience, what I. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:00]: 

No, no. And I mean the thing that really matters is return on investment. Right. It’s like, do you actually get back more than you put in? How do you suggest that folks calculate return on investment when it comes to marketing? Knowing that there’s maybe like a bunch of different activities that we’re doing? How do you think about it? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:18:20]: 

Tracking. Tracking. Tracking, yeah. All about tracking. Probably most therapists can set up. It’s very cheap. There’s a tool called CallRail. It’s just like a little line of code on your site. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:18:31]: 

It’s really, you know, pretty cheap. The HIPAA compatible plan is a little bit more. But you know, I know that depends on states. And if your marketing itself needs to be more HIPAA compliant, we have a HIPAA compliant plan just to be safe with our clients. But it’s really, really advanced, essentially what’s called attribution tracking. And that’s. I got a lead. How am I attributing this essentially to what marketing channel? So it can track form submissions if you have kind of like a native form submission. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:19:01]: 

So if you have an embed, like a Jotform or maybe another HIPAA compliant one, CallRail can’t track those, but they can always track any calls. And if you have just like an embedded form, Squarespace, wix, whatever you use, you can see exactly how they found you. So whether it’s Google Ads or Google Organic or Psychology Today, or like, oh my gosh, that podcast I did two years ago, you know, that kind of thing. So then you can see, okay, I’m putting my money here. Did that, you know, I got a lead. Great. But more importantly, did that lead actually become a client? 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:33]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:19:33]: 

Right. So it’s just a lot of it is just taking the mystery out of it. And there are amazing tools that allow us to do just that. So even if you want to try it out for a couple months, I sometimes say that to my clients if they don’t really want to spend money on the tool, I’m like, just do it for three to six months. Just so at least you can get a picture of what’s going on so that it can guard or guide your future marketing decisions. But that’s really what it comes down to because there are a lot of vanity metrics as well. You know, in, in marketing. Like for example, for a lot of our newer services, we don’t even offer blogging anymore. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:20:11]: 

And that’s. It’s been a staple, a standard in SEO for so many years. You do blogging, but we just couldn’t attribute enough direct results from it. So we’re like, all right, let’s just do the content that we know gets clients instead. So it’s that sort of thing. Like, you can get lots of leads from Google Ads. Are those leads actually turning into something? And if they are, and you’re spending, you know, a couple hundred dollars to sign a private pay client, it’s like, that sounds pretty good to me. You know, Google Ads. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:20:40]: 

So it really just depends. But knowledge is absolutely what. What is going to be the best thing for you? Because you can guess all you want, but there are tools that can help anyone. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:52]: 

And even people’s self report is often not very good. Like, people will often not actually accurately remember where they found you. They’re like, oh yeah, I think I found you, like on the Internet. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:01]: 

But you’re like, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:02]: 

But was it the Google Ads you’re paying for? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:04]: 

But I clicked on Psychology Today and you’re like, well, which one last ad? 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:07]: 

Yeah, I know. So I’m hearing. Then if I understand correctly, like CallRail, what it tracks is if someone fills out your form, it will be able to tell you where that person who filled out your form came from. Do I understand that correctly as well? And phone calls. Okay, okay, how does it. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:22]: 

And you can do texts too as well. But then you need to get like a legal texting number and there’s a whole bunch of, you know. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:30]: 

Okay, right. So is that if somebody like is on. I’m going to ask you some, some beginner questions. So when you say calls, is that because somebody’s on their phone looking at your website and then they click the call button from their phone? So it wouldn’t work. Like if I’m looking at a desktop. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:46]: 

It doesn’t psychically know call on desktops, at least mine. So I have a MacBook and I can click to call and it’ll open FaceTime and I can call someone. Got it. So it’s not going to work in every scenario, I don’t think. But it does also track. It originally started as call tracking. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:03]: 

Okay. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:22:04]: 

So a lot of times it’s used, you know, I’ve experienced in the legal marketing industry you’d get intakes, you know, record the intake so you can go back and assess the lead. It’s, it’s very, it’s pretty amazing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:15]: 

All the stuff do and what I’m hearing, you know, in terms of that return on investment piece is then you can know where somebody actually came from. So then you can look at how much are you spending on that particular marketing channel that they came from. And then I’m curious like when with your clients do you have a kind of guideline on how many months a client is worth? Like do you have your group practice owners look at like their average sessions per client? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:22:44]: 

We don’t always know the answers. So we kind of like we’re almost kind of helping them adjust how they think about this, this stuff. Because I think a lot of times business owners and definitely have seen this in therapists marketing is just kind of this like this checklist item. Yeah, it’s like I have to do this. And it’s like no, let’s, let’s really think about this and see how it’s benefiting you and how you’re thinking about your business in light of marketing because they’re, they’re, they’re like this, you know, they’re, they’re very, very connected. So I typically recommend your average hourly rate. A lot of times like a group practice owner’s own rate will pro would be significantly higher. So I would just like remove them because they’re not trying to fill their own caseloads anyways. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:23:24]: 

Yes, that’s true. I remove your rate. Take the average of your, your employees rates and then just calculate average sessions. I typically recommend just because for the most part the clients that I work with do more depth work. They’re usually working with their clients for about at least a year, let’s say. So I’ll say, okay, maybe four sessions were missed, sickness, vacation, whatever. So 11 months weekly sessions, times like 150 or something. So then, you know, your average client value could be 6,000, 8,000. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:23:56]: 

I have some clients where the average client, you know, value is 12,000 or something. And this is before like costs and all that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:04]: 

Yes, yes, it’s just, but just you. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:24:05]: 

Have a sense of the value of someone that you sign. Generally you can just like track this in a little CRM and be like, ooh, I signed someone, that’s $8,000 headed my way this year. That’s so exciting. And I only spent a thousand dollars on Google Ads, you know, in the past few months or however it is. So yeah, that’s typically the, the formula there. It’s very simple. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:26]: 

And that’s, yeah, that’s how I think about it too. And that’s something that I talk to my group practice owners about. So maybe your group practice owners just send them to me. I’ll help them understand their numbers and develop their financial literacy and confidence. Yeah, but like looking at those averages and in terms of return on investment, what do you personally see as a good return on investment when it comes to marketing spend. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:24:48]: 

Yeah. And it’s tough to do a percentage and actually should think about a good percentage. But I think something that at least like, I mean, because ideally, well, at least with the work that I do, we’re not just thinking about your return like in the slot machine sense. It’s like, what’s your return over years? So I would say double, triple, more like it should be. And the bigger the investment, the bigger that return needs to be. Like, those things need to be very, very separate. So it depends on like how long you’re investing for how much you’re investing. But yeah, big, big numbers, big returns is really, you know, what, what you should be going for. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:25:29]: 

But again, those little ad hoc kind of marketing investments that I was referring to before, those are just gonna be smaller returns because they’re just not as transformational. You know, it’s kind of like a little bit of a band aid approach, a little bit of a slot machine approach. Less of, I’m investing in this really long term thing that I know is going to continue to unfold for me for years to come. That’s, that’s gotta be a big, big fun number. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:55]: 

Yes. By fun number, you mean for many therapists, nausea inducing, like a really large number. And I know for us, as we’ve run ads over the years, we want to see at least double, like at least a two times return on ad spend. Because also in that number is your team’s time and energy and bandwidth. Like, there’s all these costs that are in there, right? Like, it’s not like I actually put a dollar in a slot machine and I got two because my team members are working on that instead of something else. And yeah, so there’s, there’s other ways. So at least double is. Is worthwhile. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:24]: 

But I’m hearing more is better, obviously, in terms of return for more. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:26:28]: 

And it’s the type of marketing. Some are just higher investment. Again, I think higher risk, higher reward, the bolder you are in a competitive environment, you will get the returns again if you’re working with someone that is trusted and has proven results and are very confident, you know, backing that stuff up. But yeah, it depends. But at least, at least double, right? Yeah, across the board. 

 Linzy Bonham [00:26:52]: 

So for folks who are looking to grow their group practices and they’re thinking about marketing, what forms of marketing do you find are best? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:26:59]: 

It’s interesting. I’m actually kind of working on this, this thing right now where if I were to, you know, I. Someone sits down two minutes, gives me the lowdown, here’s where they’re at in practice. What would I actually recommend for them? Cause I don’t always recommend SEO. I really don’t. Like, I don’t think it’s for everyone, especially not just with how rapidly things are changing. You need to be pretty adaptable. And I think a lot of therapists are just kind of like, I want to do my marketing and then I’ll have done it and then it’s. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:27:28]: 

And then everything’s fine forever. Did it. Yeah, I did it. Marketing check. All done. So I think if, if that’s kind of where you’re at with marketing, like, honestly, SEO is not a good, a good thing for you, right? So I think it depends. I think if you’re just starting out, solo practitioner, doing all of kind of like the basic small stuff, getting on all the directories that you can, again, you can track if you are getting a return on those. Now that everyone knows about CallRail track, if that’s working. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:27:59]: 

I just think, you know, standard networking and that can also be online. If you want to do more like Instagram stuff, being on the list serves the Facebook groups. That’s kind of like a little like base. So anyone who’s like, I’m starting my practice tomorrow or I started in the last three months, I’m like, okay, cover your bases. Solo practitioners, I do think Google Ads is a really good spot to be because you do get more of that money in money back. Is it more expensive per lead probably than something like SEO. Like we have a practice, they get like 150 leads a month from SEO or something. Right. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:28:32]: 

And they don’t spend anything on Google Ads. So it’s a lot cheaper to get ads or through SEO for them. But with solo practitioners, especially when you’re just starting out, I think Google Ads is a good approach because you can really scale the investment to where you are. So with SEO, for example, you kind of just have to go all in. You can’t like dip your toes in SEO. It’s like you either have to do it or it’s just not going to take. Like Google just won’t pick up on you if you’re not really doing enough and doing the right things. Google Ads, it’s like you’re pay, you’re basically like paying them to be your friend, you know, and they’re like, yeah, I’ll be your friend for 500amonth. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:11]: 

Yeah, they’re like, she’s great. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:29:12]: 

Yeah, she did. She said, great, we’ll do that. Yeah. You know, SEO is like. Sorry, did you say something? You know, like you, you have to be a little bit more aggressive with SEO. So I think if you’re just starting out, solo practitioner, trying Google Ads is a great thing. I wouldn’t put like a ton of money behind it just to try it out again. Work with a company that knows what they’re doing, has worked with therapists. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:29:37]: 

That’s super, super important in Google Ads. And then I think when you’re ready to scale and you’re ready to grow, you’re ready for sustainable growth that’s gonna serve you for years to come. You’re ready to take on more of that, just the, the bolder kind of bigger moves. Then I think SEO is a really good thing. And especially if you’re in a really competitive market. Toronto, Louisiana, New York City, Vancouver, these are very competitive markets. So you just kind of have to be ready for more of that kind of thing. But again, how many practices can say, oh, I got 150 leads just from Google this month. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:13]: 

Yeah, it’s wild. Yeah, yeah. Like, I’m hearing that SEO is kind of the. I’m trying to think of the right analogy for it. Like, I kind of have a vague visual of it, but it’s like you’re really kind of like reorganizing the whole house. When you do SEO, you can’t just do like a little. It’s like you really have to go in. So I’m hearing that if you’re a practice that’s new, it’s not going to make sense for you to make that kind of huge investment. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:34]: 

But if you’re a group that’s scaling and looking to be around, that’s a good long term investment that you can make because you’ll just keep showing up on those search engines. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:30:43]: 

If you’re in less competitive, I think you can get away with less. Even as a solo practitioner, you can just do less. But you know, if we have someone coming to us again in one of these hyper competitive markets, it’s like this is the minimum, you know, of what we have to be be doing just to make a dent. So I think it depends on where you’re located. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:02]: 

Yeah. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:31:02]: 

As well. I will say that’s an important contextual factor. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:06]: 

Sure. Of course. Like how, how many hundreds of therapists are within a couple miles and how. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:31:11]: 

Much are they spending and how much are they trying. Right. So and that’s how we get into like the competitive market. It’s not just about how competitive Google might be. How much are other therapists around you also doing this? And that’s really where the competition comes from. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:26]: 

Yeah. And I find that in the meta ad space, which is where we’ve hung out, you also end up with that competition in the market because there’s just limited ad space. So it’s like when it comes to be like Black Friday now I’m competing with like Walmart and Amazon and it’s like we’re just going to stop our ads because like we can’t outspend massive multibillion dollar companies. But yeah, there’s kind of only so much billboard space on the Internet. Right. There’s only so many things can be at the top. So depending on how competitive it is, where you are, or if in the case of like meta ads, there’s only limited spaces, like you’re reaching people all over North America that is also going to determine what your spend is going to have to look like. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:05]: 

100%. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:06]: 

Yeah. Kristie, this has been so informative. Thank you so much. For folks who are interested in learning more about you and the work that you folks do with therapists. Where can they find you? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:16]: 

Yeah, they can head over to our website@therapyseo.com and actually, probably when this episode comes out, we will be under our new name, which is place digital. So placedigital.com that’ll take you to where you need to be, reach out. We’d be happy to, you know, take a look at what you have going on and make that recommendation. We’re very honest. We often refer to ourselves as the Bad News Bears because we might tell you what other marketing consultants wouldn’t. So we’ll, we’ll always recommend what we think is actually going to, to work for you. Then in some cases it might not be our services and we’re happy to connect you with other people that we think that can help you out. But yeah, I hope this was, this was helpful. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:58]: 

My Bad News Bears approach, you know, some of you gotta do it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:03]: 

Well, we are grateful that you are taking that, falling on that sword for us. Thank you so much, Kristie, for joining me today. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:17]: 

I really appreciate Kristie bringing her marketing expert expertise onto the podcast today. Marketing is not always our favorite thing to do as therapists, but is a non negotiable. And as she said, sometimes we might be riding the benefit of certain things that we have in place already, like our, our reputation or, or some piece of marketing that we did that had a big impact. We might be benefiting from it, but eventually, you know, everything that we do kind of runs out of steam. And so we need to be thinking continually about how we are putting ourselves out there in, in the world and getting found, you know, through SEO, through ads. There’s so many other marketing activities we can do. And I love her point about just saying zoomed out and thinking about where do I want to be in five years. Right? Marketing should not be a reactive thing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:07]: 

It should not be the thing that we’re doing and we’re like, oh no. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:09]: 

We have no clients. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:11]: 

It should be, you know, to use the analogy that I mentioned, planting seeds continually and seeing what comes up. Right. But putting regular effort into putting ourselves out there, putting a regular investment into putting ourselves out there to keep our name top of mind for those people who really need to find us and. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:30]: 

Really need to work with us and. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:32]: 

Especially for group practices, to keep your group practice top of mind for, for everybody, not just you, but your group practice so that you have that continual stream of folks coming in the door to, you know, keep your clinicians full month after month after month. And these things do take continual, sustained effort. So I so appreciate Kristie’s perspective on us taking perspective on our businesses and thinking big picture, not just what do we need to do now to make the next month a good month. But what are the marks marketing activities we need to do now to make the next few years good years? So thank you to Kristie for joining us today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show Notes notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:32]: 

I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

What do you do in your private practice and what do you do with your finances when you are not feeling like you used to, when you are no longer having the health and the vitality that you used to? And we know that after menopause you are going to feel better, feel different, but a lot of these symptoms will recede. But it might be again many years that you have these symptoms. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Lindsey Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:55]: 

Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a solo episode where I’m going to be digging into perimenopause and private practice finances. I’m going to be talking today about perimenopause in general, which is something that is showing up a lot in the folks that I serve in Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills Group practice owners, who, many of whom are women in their late 30s, early mid-40s. Perimenopause becoming very, very common experience. I’m going to talk about perimenopause, what the symptoms are. I’m going to talk about how they impact us in our private practice, how they impact our finances and our ability to work on our finances. And then what you can do if you find yourself in this place where perimenopause is popping up and changing the way that you can show up in your private practice and changing how money is looking in your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:52]: 

So I think it goes without saying, but I’m going to say it. This is not a medical podcast. I am extremely not a doctor. I am smart in other ways, but there is no way I would ever get through med school. So as you’re listening to this episode today, I’m going to be talking about some of the symptoms of perimenopause. But if you are experiencing these things, of course talk to your doctor about these symptoms. I will say myself that I went to a healthcare professional thinking, thinking I had perimenopause and I actually had Something else. So it’s always good to get a second opinion when you do have symptoms like the ones that we’re going to be chatting about today coming up to make sure that you actually know what the problem is and you can get the appropriate treatment for your actual medical condition. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:31]: 

So let us dig into the symptoms of perimenopause, which are a whole list of not fun. Basically, perimenopause in a lot of ways can be summed up by you feel crummy, you experience potentially hot flashes and night sweats, your sleep is disrupted, you’re not sleeping as well as before, it’s hard to fall asleep, it’s hard to stay asleep. You are experiencing fatigue and exhaustion, mood swings, anxiety, irritability, like low mood depression, you know, the terrible highs. The terrible lows can come with perimenopause, brain fog, which of course is really relevant when it comes to our work and our money. So having trouble with memory, having trouble with concentration, focus, word retrieval might be challenging. That’s something that I know I myself have been having challenges with lately. Despite not being in perimenopause, your PMS might get way worse. So you might be used to mood swings around certain points in your cycle, but they become much more pronounced. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:30]: 

So like way more irritable, way more tension going on. Headaches can be another part of perimenopause and a whole bunch of other physical discomfort, which is a little bit less relevant for what we’re going to talk about today, but certainly lead to, again, you feeling just a whole bunch of crummy things like heart palpitation, breast tenderness, bladder problems, low libido. So you’re having less fun. Vaginal dryness and then also changes to your body. So weight gain, you know, you might be noticing your body changing and looking ways that it has never looked before. Change in body shape, it’s a lot. And one of the things about perimenopause is it can go on for a long time before you actually go into full menopause. So I know a friend of mine was diagnosed with perimenopause. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:14]: 

She was in her early 40s and her doctor said it could be eight or 10 years of this. So it is a lot to weather for a long time in terms of how this impacts our work. Of course, when we are feeling bad, when we’re feeling sick or ill, we can’t really show up as our best selves, right? If you’re having cognitive fogginess, especially word retrieval issues, if your brain is just not feeling as sharp A lot of what we do as therapists is we sit and we work to be fully present and access all of these different aspects of our brain and draw on all of these things that we know about the person sitting in front of us, and also the things that we know about therapy and our natural intuition and skills. Being a therapist involves almost, you know, if we were going to use a computer analogy, having many, many programs pulled up at the same time in your brain to be able to be as effective as possible with the person sitting in front of you. And perimenopause is going to interfere with that, right? Fogginess, headaches, fatigue, exhaustion, all of these things are going to make it harder for you to show up feeling like really the best version of yourself as a therapist and in your life as well, but definitely in your work. You also might be way more tired and have lower capacity for clients. So not only are you not able to show up as the therapist you really want to be and know that you can be in certain times, but also you might just not be able to work like you used to. It might be way more challenging to see those like 15 to 20 clients a week that you used to when you are feeling depleted and drained and foggy and physically uncomfortable. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:50]: 

This obviously has a big impact on our money as self employed people, right? When we’re not feeling well, it is harder to push ourselves to see more clients. The capacity that you might have had to see clients when you were feeling good in your 20s and your 30s, you might have been able to see 15 or 20 clients a week, no problem. That is impacted when your health is not good. And that in private practice literally impacts our income. Right? We make less money when we see less clients. And you might not have that option of just pushing yourself harder like you used to. It’s also harder to do the big picture work in your business when you are struggling with brain fog and challenges with focus and executive functioning. That big picture thinking requires us to be grounded and really zoom out. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:37]: 

And kind of similar to the computer analogy that I just used in terms of being a therapist for big picture thinking, we also need to have multiple programs kind of pulled up in our brain at once. But those programs are going to be more about taking perspective on our numbers, having our numbers pulled up and thinking about what’s happening with our clients and what’s happening with marketing and what are the messages that you’re getting that big picture strategic thinking also takes a lot of cognitive brain power that might be hard to access when you are Experiencing symptoms of perimenopause. So what do you do? What do you do in your private practice? And what do you do with your finances when you are not feeling like you used to, when you are no longer having the health and the vitality that you used to? And we know that after menopause, you are going to feel better, feel different, but a lot of these symptoms will recede. But it might be again many years that you have these symptoms. So the first thing is to zoom out and accept your new reality. It’s really easy as humans and in business to have set a certain norm or standard for ourself of like, this is what life looks like, this is how many clients I see a week, this is how much money I make. And then make that be the norm to which you always have to be holding yourself to and striving. Sometimes we have to stop and adapt and we have to accept our new situation. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:59]: 

And when our health has changed, when our bodies are changing and we don’t have control over that, A big part of making your business work for you and making your money work for you is working with your reality, not working against it. Unfortunately, no amount of willpower is going to change this combination of symptoms that you are experiencing. So with that view of acceptance and really being curious about where you are now, the first thing that you could ask yourself is how can you create more ease in your business? A lot of that is probably going to be around scheduling. What adjustments do you need to make to your schedule to feel as well as you can in this context? Right? Is that putting in like a midday break or nap or walk, Making a longer gap in the middle of the day to help to ground and take care of your body and take care of your mind? Is it ending your workday earlier than you used to? Is it seeing less clients in a row than you used to? Asking yourself these questions of how can my schedule support me now with my body and my mind the way that it is now? And just be curious about what changes would feel supportive, what would make your days feel easier? It might also be reducing your caseload. Right now, you might not have the capacity that you used to have. And when we fight against our capacity, we set ourselves up for burnout. And that is not what you need right now at this point in your life, given that you are in your late 30s and 40s, you probably have a bunch of other responsibilities going on too. So burnout is not going to help your situation. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:35]: 

So being realistic with yourself about what do you need your caseload to be right now? Would 12 be a better number for you in terms of sessions a week? Right. What are some tweaks that can be made to keep you from feeling as exhausted? You might have to actually look at increasing some fees to offset the reduced caseload. If you are already a therapist who is out of pocket, where clients are paying you cash and you can easily set your own rates, this would be an easier thing to do. Something else to remind yourself of is at this point in your career, you’re not new, you know what you’re doing, you’ve probably established a niche, you probably have an established caseload. And if you don’t, I’m sure that you have honed a specific clinical niche that would allow you to really establish a caseload of folks who really need what you do and really appreciate what you do and the expertise that you have, not just from having clinical experience, but having life experience. So this is always something that I think of when I speak with clinicians who are more in like middle aged or beyond is, you know, we really have to value what we’re bringing to the table as we get older. We have gained a lot of experience professionally and personally. So it might be looking at increasing your fees or if you are completely paneled with insurance and you’ve realized, I can’t keep seeing the amount of clients that I need to see, but also I can’t be making less money, then it might be a time to think about going cash, pay partially or completely, depending on what you need to do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:00]: 

And this is where it’s really always about being real about your numbers, your financial needs, and how do you set up that practice to meet your financial needs. Right. And this is what we talk about in Money Skills for therapists is having that sustainable practice that supports you with where you are now in this chapter of your life. It might also be creating more spaciousness in your schedule so you can seize on moments where you feel good and, and clear thinking. For instance, having deep work periods blocked off in your week where it’s like, okay, Tuesday morning I have blocked off and that’s a deep work period where I have the opportunity to really get into something, right? And then that time is there. And if it’s a good day, you might find that you do really dig into something and feel good and see yourself make progress thinking about your marketing plan or taking care of some other backend part of your business that really needs your attention. We have to set that time aside to be able to really get in the groove and if you set aside a good chunk of time, even if you can just get in the groove and get your brain working for you for 45 minutes or an hour, you’ve still created an impactful moment for your business where you’re able to work on something. But setting time aside to allow that to happen really helps because you’re probably not going to have quite the sharpness of mind that you might have used to to like do things between sessions. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:15]: 

You might have to be more thoughtful about batching your schedule to make sure that there’s enough time for you to work on the business, work in the business, seeing clients, and then also thinking about batching your schedule outside of work. In terms of time for exercise, time, for rest, time to be with friends, to fill up your cup, making sure that you’re really purposely putting in time to replenish yourself when your body is not feeling good, right? You’re kind of like moving against the current physically. We really need to make sure that we are offsetting that with whatever it is that you personally need to take care of yourself. The next piece is thinking about how your money can support you during this time. What do you need now that maybe you didn’t need before? Do you need to commit to doing some sort of regular self care like yoga or Tai chi? Old people love Tai Chi. We’re getting older. Maybe it’s Tai Chi time, I don’t know, right? Be curious about what would feel good now that your money can help to bring into your life, right? Is it getting more healthcare support? Is it buying better food for yourself, giving yourself better fuel? Is it medication, right? Is it looking at hormone replacement therapy? What is it that you need that your money can provide for you, that maybe your money didn’t need to provide for before, but now would really help to support you? Talking to your doctor and your healthcare providers about your support options is gonna help you better understand what your money could do to take care of you. In this chapter of your life, it’s always helpful to stop and ask ourselves, where would your money have the biggest positive impact in your life right now? And when you’re going through a change of seasons, when you’re going through a change in your health, those answers today might be very different than they were three years ago.