Meet Ashley Dickson-Ellison

Ashley: [00:00:00] I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not all the negative things that come up. / 

Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast. So today is a little bit of a different episode. Today my guest is Ashley Dickson-Ellison, who is our podcast editor, so this conversation kind of came about organically when we were chatting and this is mentioned a little bit in the episode about Ashley and whether or not she was like charging us enough for the work that she’s doing and maybe the work that she’s doing has grown.

And she was mentioning how anxiety inducing it is for her to think about upping her package with us and really charging us for all the work that she was doing. And we kind of made a joke on our podcast meeting of, you should come on the podcast. And it was like, no, you should come on the podcast.

So Ashley’s coming on the podcast today– she’ll also be editing this episode– to talk about her anxiety about charging for the work that she does. So in our conversation today, we dig into that anxiety that I know so many therapists and health practitioners can relate to. That fear of asking for the money that you actually need and really valuing your service.

But in our conversation with Ashley, we also got into really connecting with what she’s offering that’s different and really being able to start to recognize and articulate what is different about what she’s doing and being able to trust the bigger picture and see herself as being in an investment period.

So we talk about investment periods, what that means, how to distinguish between when you’re in an investment period and when your business is just not working, and being able to like step into really owning your expertise and trusting that you’re building something bigger and better. Some of that patience, so, so many pieces that apply to all of us in business.

Here is my conversation with Ashley Dickson-Ellison. 

 So Ashley, welcome to the podcast.

Ashley: Thank you. Thanks for having me. ​ 

Linzy: Yeah. Thank you for being here. This is a little bit of a funny, like, you’re showing up in the process earlier than usual, because you are not a therapist. You are our podcast editor. 

Ashley: Yeah. So I work with you all in that capacity, but I have found as I am a listener to the podcast that I, as a small business owner, definitely have a lot of similarities to people in private practice.

Linzy: Absolutely. And I think there’s a lot of overlap, too, in terms of just your identity and probably like your level of education. Like, You’ve got a lot in common with our listeners and also you’re a creative type. And something I was thinking about, too, as I was thinking about this episode – because we decided to record this episode kind of organically chatting through our own kind of contract negotiation that we’re doing between us right now – and like you were talking about the emotions that are coming up and we kind of made a joke with our podcast team of like, “Oh, you should come on the podcast,” and I was like, “No, you should come on the podcast!” Because I think the emotions that you are experiencing are exactly what therapists are often experiencing as well, even though you’re in a different field. So, coming into our conversation today, what do you want to focus on? What is kind of something that we can start with in terms of challenges around money? 

Ashley: Yeah. So I think what I’d love your help with, Linzy, is navigating all the emotions that come up when figuring out how to price something and then navigating that with a client. So I find that it is really hard for me to both respect what I need to live, what I need people to pay me for my services to take care of myself and my family, and to balance that with what I think they think is fair.

I try not to get too caught up in the race to the bottom situation, but there, you know, realistically, there are lots of people out there who, for many, many reasons, do it for a lot less, and so I think I kind of have to figure out how to handle that, and just in general, when I think about all the pain points in my business, the thing that is the most painful is navigating finances with clients.

Linzy: Okay. So it’s, it’s that relationship piece of the money between you and your clients. 

Ashley: I think so. I think I feel uncomfortable even talking about it, I have realized, and then figuring it out. Like, if I could pay someone, if I knew who to ask and trust and could have them write all that stuff up for me, I would want to do that because it’s that painful to me. 

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah. Okay, so tell me then about, about that pain, like what does come up when you have to have those conversations with clients?

Ashley: Well, I notice it in my body, so I think that’s where I first realized I had a problem because typically, even if I feel anxiety, it’s more like in my head than in like my gut, whereas this is definitely like in my body, I feel sweaty, I am like waking up during the night worrying about it. I feel that kind of churning feeling, so those were some indicators to me.

And then also I’ve found that I will put it off, so like there’s somebody right now that I need to… Fortunately you, Linzy, gave me a very clear like, have this done in a couple of days, and I appreciated that, and I thought, Linzy is looking out for me. 

Linzy: I made you do it. Yeah. 

Ashley: Sure. You did, you did, and I needed that.

You know, you were like, just go ahead and get it done because you knew that once I got it off my plate, I was going to feel better. And that’s true. That is true. But if somebody doesn’t have that, then I will just keep sitting on it and trying to perfect it. I mean, so I guess the perfectionism comes up.

Like I started trying to like, get it just right. I kind of agonize over the details of it because a lot of this stuff is not clear exactly how long it’s going to take, what it is worth, like all of that stuff is kind of hard to quantify. And so then I find that I have trouble figuring it out. 

Linzy: Because you’re doing project based work, right, which is a little different than most of the folks who are listening, who are doing sessions, where it’s like you’re exchanging time for money and then you have to figure out, okay, what is the value that they’re getting from it, but there’s also this hour that’s always in the mix. For you, as you’re like doing an episode. I’m going to guess there’s variability that can happen on how long it takes you to, you know, edit somebody’s episode based on a bunch of factors.

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And I do think it’s more like if there are people listening who have other offerings, it’s that kind of thing. Like, how much is a course worth? How should I charge for a program? What is it if I’m giving somebody consultation advice instead of therapy, like, you know, what does that look like?

So I think it’s that kind of packaging and pricing is definitely the realm that I’m in and I do have a hard time both figuring it out and then also delivering it to the person. 

Linzy: I’m hearing there’s like a lot that happens in your body, which is different. That’s like a different kind of anxiety than you’re used to. Cause you said usually anxiety’s in your head.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Like I’m, you know, I get in there, I mean like a lot of people with a similar personality, I go from productive thought that is like, Oh, I need to figure this thing out. To the stuck spiral of I’m gonna keep thinking about this even though I’ve already drawn any logical conclusions I can draw that’s already happened, but I know that and I recognize it and it doesn’t always work. But I do have things that I know to do when that happens. Whereas like I said this one I just have noticed it’s just totally different.

I mean, I was in education for 17 years prior and I never once had to talk to anyone about what I made. There’s no, I mean, it’s publicly available. There’s no negotiation. There’s no pay for extra things. So I think, like, it’s just totally different than what I am accustomed to.

Linzy: I think that’s so relevant because something that I noticed as, as a Canadian. So I’m Canadian, you’re American. This is one of the things that’s like so different about Canada and the United States is that in Canada, being a teacher is a well paid profession, 

Ashley: I have heard you say that, but I did not know that prior to working with you. 

Linzy: And this is something I’ve had to adjust to is when like my students talk about how like well I have this client and like she’s on sliding scale because she’s a teacher. Like it didn’t make sense to my brain at first because in Canada teaching is a profession where you make like 70, 80, 90… you get the summers off, like it’s a hard profession, but it’s like solid. I would say it still has maybe some of the issues with respect in terms of being like a feminized profession that people like expect everything of their teachers, but you’re getting paid well. Like it’s, you’re comfortable financially. But in the United States that is not the case. 

Ashley: Depends on the state and your experience. I will say that for me, my partner is also an educator and like we live comfortably, but we also are very careful about our budget and we’ve always just lived kind of simply, which has meant that it was fine, but absolutely like from state to state, there are differences in how well you are paid.And there are differences in level. Like I have a master’s. Like those things sometimes help, but not a lot, you know, you’re talking about a couple thousand dollars a year, maybe, for a difference. We’re not talking about 10, 000. So, you know, there are some things that you can do, but absolutely in our, in our partnership, we’ve always tried to just keep our debt low and those kinds of things so that we could live on their salaries.

But for sure, it is kind of taken for granted in the U. S. that when I say that I’m a teacher, people kind of assume a lot of things that have to do with financial stability and it’s because of that. So definitely both not super well paid and then also exactly what you said of you’re not only- that’s an expectation, but additionally, you should be staying after to give help. You should be- of course, I did English. So I always was grading at night and on the weekend. I was planning at night and on the weekend. And all of that you would never be compensated for. So I think again, I have to remind myself if I provide a service. I need to be paid for that service. And if that service is different than the thing that I originally offered, I need to say that. And that’s another financial pain point. It’s like, I would rather just let it go.

Linzy: yes, right, 

Ashley: I know this is not right, Linzy. Okay, I know, I know. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I’m here. It’s because I know I need to work through this. But basically, I would rather sit in that space than have to navigate saying, like, hey, I’m doing this thing and it’s taking this much time and I need to be compensated for it. So, like, that’s why I’m just like, okay, I need to deal with this as a business owner, or I’m going to continue to have these problems. 

Linzy: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Ashley: Because it’s kind of like the systems aren’t working for me. 

Linzy: No. Yeah and like what I’m hearing is there’s a certain amount of conditioning that, you know, would have come from your previous job. It’s not like you came from law where it’s like if you think about somebody while you’re brushing your teeth, you get to bill for that time. Right? Which is a very, very different frame around work and when you’re working and when you’re not and what’s valuable. 

Like you’re coming from a profession where it was expected that you’re doing all of this extra work beyond your work day and you couldn’t not do that. There’s no way that you could not grade people’s papers and be like, well, sorry, I wasn’t working. So that’s built in. And now you’re coming into your own business, or you’ve been in your own business, where you do need to think about charging for that time, like that, or you have the option of charging for that time.

Like, how do you think about the difference now in the work that you’re doing compared to, you know, when you were in teaching and you were on a salary?

Ashley: Yeah, I try to remind myself that I am only paid for the things I deliver. 

Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm 

Ashley: And that that means it’s okay to say, Hey, I’m delivering this, this and this. And we only originally talked about A, but now it’s A, B, and C. In my mind, I think I’m getting better at that. And then the other thing, and I mentioned this to you off mic, the other thing I’ve noticed is financially, I definitely needed to be making more. But then I feel like I don’t have any more time in my schedule. And so then I thought, okay, something is not right here. Because if I’m working full time, in a profession that again, in theory I should be able to do quite well in, and yet I’m not where I need to be financially, then something has to change. And some of that may need to be, like I may need to bring on some support, that may help me be more efficient with my time. So like there are some things that aren’t just package pricing. That would help I think, but also as I’m bringing on any new clients, I just want to be very strategic because I think based on what I’m seeing financially. I think that I probably am not pricing things the way I need to be pricing 

Linzy: Okay. Yeah. So let’s go back to that anxiety that does come up. Cause I’m hearing, like, you can see you should be able to get paid well for the work that you do. And I will say, as your client, I have said to people before, you know, cause I know that there’s podcast editors who do like $45 an episode, right? I’m aware that that’s out there. I made a very conscious choice to work with you and I’ve said this to you before, not just because you can like edit an episode and do decent audio, but because you hold the bandwidth, right? For our team, that’s extremely important that we have somebody. who can hold the bandwidth of whatever project they’re, you know, in charge of and is like, Oh, hey, this piece didn’t happen yet. Or like, hey, is this hanging around somewhere and I just haven’t seen it? Like where you’re actually managing the podcast, right? Because that’s extremely valuable for a small business owner like me, where it’s like, I have a lot of things that I’m managing. And there’s like my zones of genius where I can show up and like really shine. And that makes money that literally pays everybody else in our business, right? So I need to be putting my energy there. So you actually like running the podcast is much more valuable than kind of just somebody just editing, right. So there’s a lot of value that you’re bringing there in terms of how you do things. And so I will let you know that is like, I have recognized like I’m like I pay Ashley more and I’m very happy that I do because she’s doing so much more than somebody who’s just like oh okay I cleaned up like I took out the ums and ahs and I fixed the levels and here it is, and you do the rest, right. So there’s that value you’re definitely delivering in terms of the work that you’re doing. So, the anxiety. Let’s dig into that anxiety. It’s in your body. What do you notice happens? Like, you were saying there’s the waking in the middle of the night, the kind of like churning. Can you put more words to it?

Ashley: Yes, I find that I avoid, I mean, so it’s like the avoidance initially I will try not to have to deal with this, in fact that is a reason I am like reluctant right now to onboard more people because I’m just not looking forward to all the parts of that. And as far as the anxiety itself, I can tell myself I’m making the right decisions or that this is a necessary part. But I guess that there’s a fear of it not working out. There’s a fear that they’re going to say no. I mean, I’ve had to kind of decide that I’m not ever going to fill out the forms and stuff like that if it’s somebody who’s asking up front before even meeting us what the costs are. Because I think if they see that on a spreadsheet, again, there’s the people who will do it for 45. That is not the thing that is my special skill. I mean, I think what my special skill is, is working in a deep way with a team, and that I care about all that, and I, that is not going to change. If I’m standing with somebody, I am going to make sure that it’s polished. I’m going to make sure that it’s running on time. I’m going to make sure that the things that need to happen happen, and I’m going to help them brainstorm to figure out what to do when something goes awry. You know, all that stuff, and so that’s where I’ve realized that those are the parts that are hard to articulate when you are figuring out the pricing. But that, I think, is what is valuable. Like, that’s what I’ve noticed in testimonials I get from people. Like, that’s definitely the thing that seems to be different. And so, I know that. But I’ve still got to keep working through the discomfort, I think, that comes with talking about the money. Talking about that I’m offering a service.

Linzy: What I’m hearing is you see the value of what you do. You recognize that what you do is not what everybody does, and I think about you more as like a manager. What title do you use for yourself? How do you think about your job?

Ashley: Yeah, that’s a great question, and it is something I’ve had a hard time pinning down. I went to a conference recently, so I finally had to, this is another thing I procrastinated on, but I finally put podcast management, and what I often say is I put, like, audio and video editing also. If there’s a space to put extra things. But I have started saying podcast management for exactly that reason. And sometimes I say in post production because people know what that means, the like post production part. And sometimes people are kind of looking for that.

So I do find that it’s an area where people still are being educated about what the offerings are and what they mean. And so I try to use words that might make sense to people, but I have gotten away from just editor and have started saying management

Linzy: I’m really glad to hear you say that because I think that, too, is you owning the level of skill that you’re bringing to it, right? Like it’s one thing to be able to edit audio and that’s a specialized technical skill set, but that like people managing, relationship building, you know, as you said, like being part of a team, which you very much are part of our team, like that is a skill set that also I feel like doesn’t always overlap with the editing skills, right. It’s a little bit like my situation where it’s like, you have two distinct sets of skills that often don’t coincide, and that itself is really valuable that you offer these two very different things in one package.

Ashley: Thank you. And I do think that’s true, that I have to look at it as a strength, but it is also sometimes, I mean, it’s the emotional part of it can be really challenging for me. And that’s another thing I’ve had to realize is like if I’m working with the team and the team does not, like, they see me as kind of like I mean, it’s crude maybe to say, but kind of like a robot, you know, like that I, that I do the thing that they’re sending and that’s kind of it, that does not work for me.

And so there are partnerships that, you know, I’ve kind of been like, Oh, this is not the right fit because I’ve had to be like, I want people who care about that connection and that they value it also. And so, you know, again, like thinking about the packaging, but also how to present those things. That’s challenging. 

Linzy: Yes. Yeah, because what I’m hearing here is part of it is really owning, in therapy we would call it owning your niche, right? Like that you are offering something that’s very different and specific and also you’re a very specific kind of person, right?

So like I know when I was talking with my friend Maegan Megginson – who’s also chatting with you about podcast stuff – I’m like, she’s educated, she’s articulate, she’s kind, she’s responsible, like those kinds of things are really, really valuable. But part of it, I think, from a marketing perspective, is you owning those things to be able to like, be like, Hey, I’m educated, I’m articulate, I’m kind, I’m responsible, you know, and like owning that, cause that’s actually a big part of what you’re offering, right? Like, you’re not just doing audio editing or like giving us a spreadsheet, it’s like you are really emotionally intelligent and also technically gifted and really rooted in the podcast world.

Ashley: Well, thank you. That’s nice to hear, I really appreciate you saying that, and I think maybe that is something I really need to work on, is thinking about how to market that to people I don’t already work with, because that’s exactly it, is once I have those relationships, I feel good about them. I think that my partners feel good about them. It’s a good fit for everybody, and that part feels really good to me, and it’s satisfying. But then, you know, how do I help people see that? Because again, otherwise, I’m going to have to price in a way that is competing with people who aren’t offering any of those services. And then, I can’t sustain it, because again, I can only have a few partners. I mean, realistically, I think – you and I talked about that off mic – realistically, I can only have a few partners, because that’s the only way to do what I want to do and do it well. 

Linzy: Yes, because it’s a quality over quantity situation. Like you can’t have 10 podcasts you’re working on. 

Ashley: No. And there are people who do like 20 a week. I mean, it’s, it’s like the sessions and people talking about how many sessions can you handle a week and how do you make your numbers work, but also make your life work. And I haven’t figured that out yet, but I know that my number is very small in comparison to a lot of other people.

Linzy: Totally yeah, and and there very much is that parallel to therapy, like we talked about like there’s gonna be your specific thing that you’re doing right and like some things, like doing CBT, takes less emotional energy than doing like complex trauma, right? Like they’re just, you’re using kind of your brain a different way, you’re having to respond differently, but also then it’s just like you as a person, right? Like your energy, how much energy do you have as a person? What else in your life is happening? Like what other demands are coming up that you might have to make space for or that are just priorities to you? Like for me, this week, I mentioned to you off mic, I prioritized this week like taking a friend to the emergency room on Monday night… I left the emergency room for a bit went to a stand up comedy show, went back to be with her until she was finally admitted because that’s important to me, right. And like I could not have that be important to me and then it wouldn’t be on my schedule. But like, that’s actually a really important part of how I live my life. So I have to think about a business that’s going to let me do that. And not everything’s going to fall apart if I step out to to help a friend who, you know, needs support, right. And so that’s the other factor for you to think about too is like you’ve got your daughters and like you move a lot as a family because of your partner’s work, right. So like really owning those pieces of your life too, to think about what, how many clients could you actually work with in the way that you like to work, in the life that you like to have. And I’m curious with that, Ashley, like, is there a number that rises to the surface for you if you really think about that?

Ashley: I used to think five was doable and these days that feels like too much. So I do think it has to do with frequency of release if i’m working with everybody, if everybody’s doing podcasts and I have supported people a little bit in other things. So that makes a difference like if I did an audiobook or if I did- I’m helping somebody edit all their courses, and so that pacing is different, and I still like that relationship, but I do also like that it does not have the imminent 5 a.m. deadlines that I experience for my podcast partners. So it does make a difference as far as how frequently they release, but I would say five or less, and realistically, maybe more like three.

Linzy: Three is the number that was coming up for me. I don’t know why.

Ashley: Thank you, 

Linzy: It’s in the air. It’s in the air. Yeah. Yeah. So three. Okay. So if you think about three then, do you know what price point you need to be, you know, working out with those three partners or what the total needs to be per month for you to contribute what you need to contribute to your household?

Ashley: It’s been hard for me to say. I think my first goal was, and I started this in the spring of 2021, so I worked the academic year of 2021, and then I left that job in the summer. And I was still paid through the summer for my teaching position. So I got a little cushion there, but that’s kind of when I started was spring, summer 2021. And my initial goal was just to replace my salary, which was about like 55, 000.

Linzy: Mmhm.

Ashley: I did that. I did, over time, I did replace that, but I was, there were all the balls up in the air all the time, and I was like, oh my goodness, I kind of set this financial goal as a way to decide how many people to take on, and then I met my goal, but at a very high cost, and so then I thought, okay, I need to look at this in another way, you know, when it can’t just be about meeting the financial goal.

And then ultimately what I have realized is that I’m not sure that I’m satisfied with that amount either. And I think that’s been hard. I’ve listened to you talk with people about this, but I think we just have to be honest with ourselves about what we really need financially. And it makes me uncomfortable to realize that I think our family needs more than we thought we did, and that’s because, you know, I have a seven and a nine year old. They’re getting older, but I mean, I’m just like, I feel, people probably relate to this, I feel like we’re like burning our money in the street. I mean, sometimes I’m sort of like, where is it all going? Because I think we have relatively secure jobs and yet, It’s not enough.

So I have kind of thought, I mean, I’m not even at that number now because I did let go of a big partner. Linzy knows a little bit about this, but basically I let go of somebody because our family was going overseas for a little while. It was the right move for me. I was doing a lot of work that was not in my niche, as you said, and that was good for the short term, but it was preventing me from figuring out what my passion is and really making sure all my partnerships do that and match that passion. And so I let go of that. Well, because of that, I have a deficit and so I feel this friction between what I see and believe can happen. But have to be patient for. And then what I see right now on my bank account where I see that the money going out is a lot more than the money coming in and that is not a great feeling.

So, you know, kind of dealing with that. I mean, I don’t think we’re in crisis. We’re fortunate that we can survive that deficit for a period of time, but it doesn’t feel good.

Linzy: No, no, of course not. Okay. Okay. So right now you’re actually in the negative of where you need to be. So we’re not even talking about lifestyle improvement. We’re just talking about like your money catching up to your life. 

Ashley: Yes. And the other big factor is, we’ll have another client that they, for lots of reasons that make a lot of sense, they’re going to be dissolving probably. So like that could transition and I could work with a new partnership there, you know, like in their company. But if I lose that, it’s going to be a big loss and that could happen imminently. And so that’s kind of new for me also that again, teaching, maybe you don’t make a ton, but you have a lot of security. Like, I felt very secure in that, and so, like, learning to live with the ups and downs has been really hard. 

Linzy: Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And with the kind of work that you’re talking about too, like, it’s a little bit different than therapy work because therapy work tends to be like, I have this many spots, oh, two spots opened, but already my website’s out there. Already people have been checking me out. I’m already getting inquiries. I can fill those two spots. Like, but with you, it’s like, maybe you have three clients. We get to the point where you have three clients. If one client leaves, it’s like a third of your income is gone, right? And then you have to look around to find that other third of your income again, which is a significant, significant hit. You have all your eggs in – or many eggs – in one basket. no other baskets.

Ashley: Right. 

Linzy: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes. Yes, that’s a great analogy.

Linzy: So I’m going to bring us back to that anxiety again, because we keep circling it, but we haven’t actually gotten to it. I’m curious, like, what is the fear? Like what is the thing that you really fear happening that your body is telling you about?

Ashley: I think that it won’t work. That I will make changes that in some ways feel a little selfish, like letting go of that client, I do think was the right thing for me, but it impacts my family. It impacts my family financially and kind of immediately. And that felt like a big risk. And knowing that I’m going to have to keep doing that kind of thing causes me anxiety.

And immediately when the client, who we might dissolve here coming up, when they called me, right after that, I went on the… Greenville County is where we live. The Greenville County School Board, of course, there’s a million jobs posted. And immediately I was like, oh, I could just apply. I could apply for next year. And so there’s this idea of, and of course my partner comes home and is like, Let, let’s- 

Linzy: Yeah. 

Ashley: -take a breath and talk about all the things you could do that are not that. And I loved the classroom, but I needed to leave when I left. So, like, I needed to for myself, I needed to for my family, and I know that.

So I have to just keep reminding myself that even though there is comfort in thinking about a W2 position that has a very steady income and that doesn’t have these, like, ebbs and flows. There is comfort in that, but I know in my mind that that is not the pathway I want to be on and that I’ve worked hard to get here.

I’ve worked hard the last two and a half years to build this space and create these partnerships who, you know, and I’m very, I’m very attached to your team. I’m attached to the other teams I work with, and so while I recognize that there will be changes, and of course people will have to move on for lots of reasons, that, that I need to learn to live with.

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah, and I wonder, what makes it worth it to have to weather that?

Ashley: I think I have found that I am skilled at helping people see why a podcast is really valuable and how it can really build their community. Reach people who they would not reach otherwise. And so I really love that. I mean, I have my own that we have stayed with despite all the ups and downs for since 2018.

And it’s been hard. But I think that there have been times where we thought it would fall apart. And I realized I wasn’t ready to let it go. And so then I had to be like, what is it that I love about this so much that I am not willing to let it go. And so I think I feel passionate about the creation. I love to create also.

And so I think I love that creating. And then, you know, I work from home. And I love the flexibility I have with that. And that was a big help for our family. So before when I was working, you know, I’m in the building all day. My partner’s at a university all day. And the kids need anything. It always felt like complete chaos every time somebody’s schedule didn’t run exactly the way it was supposed to and I was just so tired of that cycle of just feeling like we’re constantly one step from total disaster.

And so I do feel like this job, even though I have this part that I got to figure out and make feel better, I feel way way more present with my kids. I feel way more flexible with my day And all of that feels really good because before I did, you know, make some changes within education, like I left the English classroom, I went into instructional technology, and I did that to try to dial down the amount of energy I was expending throughout the day.

And it did help, but I still came home running very close to empty. I mean, I’m a highly sensitive person. I love working with kids, but I also carry every bit of work, what they have going on, and that was fine before I had my own kids and then once I had them I was just like, This does not work. This does not work.

And I felt like I knew that you know – my oldest daughter is nine and a half – I knew that the moment she was born, basically, I was like something has to change.

Linzy: Yes, yeah, and I relate to that very much. I just was having a memory yesterday of a mentor of mine, who’s actually a mother of one of my friends, sent me a card after my son was born and was like, you know, having a child is going to let you understand your clients at a whole new level.

And I just remember thinking, no, I don’t, I don’t want to. That for me was like a very clear like, no, I actually don’t want to like have to be doing all of that emotional work and that intensity and rawness and like, yeah, carrying all that stuff and also like parenting this tiny human. I knew that for me, those things were not compatible and it sounds like for you, it was a similar realization. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah Yeah, yeah. And I felt like I did something and I did it for like six years that I felt like made it more containable and it taught me all these skills. I mean, this is how I got into the tech stuff was like making that change. So I felt like it was worth it. But even that I was ready, you know, the pandemic came and we really saw how hard it can be to try to keep everything afloat.

And so even though things have gotten back to normal in a lot of ways, I started to value the flexibility of being able to do what I needed to do when I needed to do it. And that was never a possibility before. You know, going to the dentist, taking a kid to the dentist, I mean stuff that, those just like basic logistical things were kind of impossible before.

And so that part is very freeing and makes it worth it for me to do the hard work of like, figuring out all the business side of this. Because that is the part that does not come easily to me. The relationships come great. The tech itself is fine. When I don’t know, it’s no problem for me to learn, those things are all very easy. But the business part is just, continues to be painful.

Linzy: Okay. As I’m listening to you, I’m hearing a couple things. First of all, I’m hearing the structure of this work is great for you, right? Like the flexibility, and like you’re not depleting yourself, you’re not coming home almost empty, right? Like you have the energy for your kids now, instead of kind of absorbing from other kids all day long. And then I’m also hearing you love being part of a team. You get to use this blend of skills that you have, this kind of emotional, relational intelligence that you have, as well as these tech pieces. I’m curious, like, when you think about all of the good stuff about your work, all of these pieces, like, what do you notice in your body?

Ashley: I mean, I think I feel proud. I think that I realized that I’ve made something and it was something I never, I mean… I never would have thought I’d be in tech. I never thought I’d be in business. And so I think I feel proud of that, and I did realize, like, when I had one partnership that was more of an employee situation, I realized I didn’t want that. Like, I actually wanted the freedom to feel like I’m in charge. I mean, I serve other people, and I enjoy serving them, but I’m in charge of my path, and that’s, like, really important to me. 

Linzy: Yeah. Okay, okay. So that being in charge of your path then, is there any kind of like image or feeling that comes with that? Let’s build that out a little bit. What do you think of when you think of being in charge of your path? 

Ashley: I think that there is a way that I can serve people that I’m not currently serving them. And so I have this like feeling, and I mean I’ve learned this in part from you and from hearing people talk about like programs and just other ways of kind of fleshing out what they do and taking their genius but offering it in a different way.

And so I have this feeling that maybe there’s a way that I can help people that’s not quite as intense as the partnerships. And I think if I could do that, I think I would enjoy it. I love to talk to people and be connected. And it’s funny because I’m like so introverted, but now that I work at home all the time, and I’m by myself all the time, I’m also like, oh gosh, like where are the people, you know?

And so, I think I would like the connection part, and I just don’t know what it looks like yet, and I think that I have some obstacles, some of them are the financial ones, you know, it’s just like pricing, navigating what are the offerings, but also it’s just some logistical things like locking down, narrowing it down, figuring out what exactly is the thing I want to offer, and then it gets into the marketing and stuff, which is a conversation for another day, but that is a huge barrier for me, because right now, I function through referral.

I have been able to do that. It’s been very comfortable, whereas this would require me to be more present in digital spaces in a way that I have very much chosen not to be 

Linzy: hmm. I understand that. I can relate to that. Yeah, because like what I’m hearing here is on one hand, I’m hearing, you know, there’s a part of you, and I’m gesturing to my chest, which I guess this is going to be a video, so some folks will actually see what I’m doing. Those of you listening, just to the audio will not see this, but I’m gesturing to my chest to all this anxiety that’s in your body, right? So like, there’s a part of you that’s really afraid of kind of sticking your neck out and taking up space. But then I’m hearing another part of you that knows that you have even more to offer than what you’re doing now. And you could reach even more people and have more impact in a way that costs you less. Than you do, like, even more than you are now. Right? Like, there’s even more potential here for, like, connection and, and getting what you know out to the people who, you know, can make great podcasts and make a difference in the world. I’m hearing kind of these two different parts there. Does that, does that feel familiar? That there’s kind of that duality to it?

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And it’s, I mean, and those two feel both in opposition and kind of in friction and yeah, so it’s again, cause it’s kind of like, there’s maybe an easier or faster path that’s going to feel more financially stable and that will help, you know, because again, I feel like if my family doesn’t get to do a thing because I made these choices, like there is an impact that I’m aware of, but then I also am like, I can’t go that direction and build out something that I don’t currently have if I don’t make space to do that. 

Linzy: Yeah. And it makes me wonder, like, the part of you that’s really afraid, right, this anxious part, what does that part of you need to know, the part of you that can have this, like, owning this excitement and realizing you have even more to offer the world, what, does that anxious part need to know?

Ashley: I think I need to trust that it is okay to let more money go out than come in for a period of time. Because I think I am very comfortable with always making sure that I’ve paid off everything all the time, and you know, we have a mortgage, but like, beyond that, like, we really just try to, like, always pay off our credit cards every month and things like that, and so I think I need to say, it’s okay to dip into some savings, maybe, to help cover this for a little bit, I think I’m always calculating, like, have I met my goal?

 And again, like, initially it was just, I just wanted to cover my salary because I felt like then, I guess I felt like that proved that it was okay to do this other thing because it was worth as much. And again, I mean, I know that’s kind of silly, but I think I’m stuck on that. I’ve like, I’m always like, oh, but I’m down this much from what I thought I needed to be making. And so I think maybe just giving permission for that is necessary to be able to try to go this other route. And then I feel like I need help to get some of those steps and figuring out that help is a big barrier. I mean, I think, you know, just I’m sure that a lot of people relate to this. It’s like I’m used to running my own show and it’s hard for me to find the right people who I really can trust and who I believe are going to do the level of work I want them to do. It’s just easier for me to just do it myself. So I think I need to let of a little.

Linzy: Which is a, you know, conversation for another time. But, yeah, because what I’m hearing in this is like, it’s almost like you need to trust yourself to make an investment in your business.

And part of that investment is right now making the space, maybe finding the right teacher to help you make courses, work on your marketing, own your branding and your niche, like whatever strategic step you decide is the next right step for your business, like somebody to help you do that, and part of the investment actually is going to be not making yourself just like make money right away and draw into these savings a little bit because you’re building something bigger and more solid and more in the direction of where you want to go. What do you think about that framing of this is an investment like you’re- and in fact you’re actually investing with your your buffer. Like money from the past. You’re not even going into like a debt for this, it sounds like at this moment you’re more just digging into savings to make the space to build something bigger or more in alignment with what’s actually going to make your heart sing or however you want to phrase that.

Ashley: I love that. I love that. I think that looking at it as an investment makes it feel like a strategic move instead of like a big risk or almost careless. Like it makes it feel like it is a purposeful decision instead of, you know, being lazy to not take those next steps or being careless because I think those are some of the things that come up when I’m in the anxiety space is just this like criticism of like, oh, but I could be doing ABCD and that is true but if I did those I know that there’s consequences for that and so then you know Trying to use what I’ve learned over the past several years to make a wise, long term move instead of solve the problem. But I do want to just solve the problem. Definitely my first impulse is like, just stick the band aid on there. Gaping wound? I don’t care.

Linzy: It’s fine. It’s fine. I’ve got Band Aids. Paw Patrol Band Aids. Yeah, because part of investing and like part of the difference between investing and just having a business that’s losing money continually or not supporting you continually is you need to be able to trust yourself to do the things to make this an investment. Right? That’s the difference between an investment period and just a business that isn’t working. In an investment period, the money might not look like you want it to look. You might be in the negative. You might be drawing into savings, but you’re like, I’m doing this with a plan. And my plan is, first I’m gonna do this, by the end of this quarter I’m gonna be here, I’m gonna be building these relationships, I’m gonna get help from this mentor who I really trust, and by this point I’m gonna be launching my courses, or I’m gonna have my like very specific packages with my new language that really like articulates exactly what I do that’s different, like you have a plan and you’re working a plan, rather than like, eh, it’ll be fine. Right? Or like, I’m just not going to look at that. Right? And like, that’s the big difference. And like, sometimes I talk about this when people ask me about, like, taking on business debt, too. Like, do you take on, like, a business line of credit? And it’s like, debt can be strategic if you’re being strategic. Right? And that’s what I’m hearing here. This is actually an opportunity. It sounds like a window or an opening for you to be strategic and part of what I’m hearing like, going back to this original piece we talked about, about giving some pricing to a current or a new potential partner, and like waiting to hear back from them and that like churning is part of it is trusting that you’re building something that is better and if somebody doesn’t value what you’re offering and isn’t willing to pay you what you actually need to live, then they’re not a fit for your relationship. Like, it’s not the right relationship for your business. And there will be somebody else who is, right? But that’s, that’s really like trusting in your vision and trusting yourself to work your vision until you make it happen. How does that land with you? 

Ashley: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think just reframing it, what I really am walking away hearing is thinking of it as an investment period makes it feel a lot better, because I think otherwise… it’s hard to justify making less when you know you could be making more right now. I mean, I could pick up stuff today, that I’m getting paid way too little for. That I could, you know, rush through and send to people.

And I know that. And so, there’s both comfort in that, because that’s nice, that there is something to do. I mean, that’s, all of that’s so new to me also, I can control what I make to a certain extent. I’ve never had that experience before. 

Linzy: Something else that this is something that I teach in like the group practice level, where you do have like this bigger business and there’s like up months and down months, is like zooming out on your business, right? Like your business is not a paycheck.

It’s not about one month at a time. It’s not about like this month I’m this much in deficit. Like we really actually want to be looking at your business from like a 12 month perspective. And it could be that when you look at the 12 months coming to the end of this year, you’re like yeah, we started slow in quarter one when I was kind of like letting go of some partners, looking for new ones, hadn’t found the right people yet, hadn’t really figured out how to articulate what I was doing, but like look at what happened in quarter three, and then we ended the year like in this place, or there was like this much extra, or I, now I’m able to pay myself this much, right?

Like having that zoomed out perspective, because anxiety tends to zoom us way in. Right? Like we’re thinking about like right now. Because anxiety is about survival. It’s about fear and survival. It’s like, there’s a tiger. What do I do right now? Right? But that’s actually not financially strategic and also what I’m hearing is like, you could “fix” this, I’m putting that in quotations, right now if you want by picking up low paying work that you don’t feel good about or going back to the school board, which you know has all these other costs, but long term that’s actually not going to get you where you want to be.

Ashley: Yes, absolutely.

Linzy: So Ashley, coming into the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Ashley: I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. And I think I just appreciate, I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not, all the negative things that come up. And I love your ideas also about how to share what I offer and how it’s different. And I think that I really could do a lot with that because I don’t feel like anything- when I think about things I’ve sent to people before, I don’t feel like I have done that. So, you know, trying to think about- and again, that gives me a little bit of I still don’t want to do the marketing part, but it does help me think about, like, how that could be valuable just for people getting to know me. Yeah, that would be a space where I can showcase that a little bit more than like on a flat document that just kind of itemizes. 

Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you need a lot more feelings words in your marketing and a lot more adjectives about how you work, right? Because I will say, like, I’ve referred you now a couple of folks. Like, I think the, the course that you’re editing is like from one of our guests who, like, we made a joke in the podcast. Like, Oh yeah, my editor could do your course. And then afterwards you were like, were they serious? And I was like, I think they were serious. And now you’re doing that work, right?

So it’s like, I think you’re, you’re getting into, a space where there’s going to be lots of folks, like, folks that I know, and probably through other partners, too, who would really value what you do. And you being able to articulate, this is what I do, this is how it’s different, this is what really distinguishes me from the space where it’s like a lot of bros with plaid shirts doing audio editing. Like, I’m not that, and I’m all these other things, is really valuable and it’s helping, just helping folks understand why that’s so much more valuable than just having somebody edit episodes and send them back to you and be like, good luck. 

Ashley: Yes, right, maybe I need to think more about the contrast.

Linzy: Yes, the contrast. Yeah, because that’s what sets you apart, right? And it’s that whole thing of like marketing is also repelling the people who aren’t for you. So if there’s somebody who’s like, I don’t really want somebody to be part of my team and I don’t really want somebody who’s going to be like showing up and asking questions and like, you know, I just want somebody that can send stuff to and I’m not really gonna have a relationship, then you’re not for them. Right? And that’s great that you know that.

Ashley: Yes.

Linzy: So Ashley, do you want to tell people about your podcast? 

Ashley: Sure. So my own podcast is about books and I work with a teacher as my co host and it’s called Unabridged and we do a book club every month and we just talk all things bookish. So if you love books, then that’s great. And then I love working with emotionally intelligent clients in the podcast space. And my name, AshleyDicksonEllison.com is my website where you can learn more, though I will be updating my marketing to have more feeling words

Linzy: But yes, I know folks who are listening do have podcasts so if you are looking for podcast support, I am going to plug Ashley right here on this podcast that then she’s going to edit. This is all very circular. Having somebody who has the expertise to walk you through the podcast world is so, so, so, so valuable and we appreciate you. We appreciate you, Ashley. So thank you for being our podcast manager and thank you for coming on the podcast today.

Ashley: Thanks, Linzy.

Linzy: In my conversation with Ashley today, there was… in the back of my mind there was like some sort of image or metaphor that I was never able to really pull forward and articulate. But it is something about kind of stepping out on your own, right. And when you are stepping out on your own, whether it’s into private practice or into some sort of other kind of side business that maybe you’re even doing in addition to your private practice ’cause I know so many therapists have other gifts and talents… When you are stepping out of that kind of safety of having a salary, that often costs us in all these other ways, like Ashley talked about, you know, like so emotionally draining to be a teacher using up all of her energy, but it’s safe, right?

When we step outta that safety and we step into having our own businesses, it is scary. Like that is true. And I think that often we think that that’s something specific or, you know, deficient about us if we’re feeling really like anxious or scared in that process. But there really is something about stepping out on your own and taking up that space, and having to start to really own your gifts and be like, this is what I do. This is what it’s worth. You might not like it. You might say no to it or knowing what you do, but not having found your people yet. Like that building stage of really growing into, it’s kind of growing into your brand, being able to articulate what you’re offering and then having to like find your people and figure out how to price it. It is scary, and it’s hard and I kind of am getting this image in my head of like… I don’t know, like being out in the desert or a field, and you’re kinda like by yourself, but you’re also building something and that’s so powerful to build something that is yours. But also it’s kind of scary and exposing and lonely. And you know, I’m, I’m hearing that in what Ashley’s saying, like she has that spark. She knows what she offers and how it’s different from what other people are offering, and she’s like starting to be able to recognize and thinking about how to articulate that more. But it is also scary to kind of stake your ground and be like, this is me. This is what I do, this is what I’m good at. And folks might take it or leave it, and it takes time to find your people. And that’s true in all businesses, including private practice. So I’m really, I’m really excited for Ashley. She’s wonderful. So if you are looking for a podcast manager, reach out to her. I’m really excited and honored to be working with her and getting her support as she’s also building a business that is more and more her. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s super, super helpful for us if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can share what your favorite episode is or what you enjoy about the episodes. It is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of the conversation. Thanks for listening today.