Kelley [00:00:02] The reason that I got into this business was to have more time with my family. And so in order to do that, I had to streamline my process much more and I needed a platform that was much more automated. I needed a team that could run my website without me. And so I decided to make that investment. And it was all behind the scenes. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?” I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is Kelley Stevens. Kelley Stevens is the owner, the mastermind behind Private Practice Pro. I first came across Kelley on Instagram, which will feature heavily in our conversation because she really has built her business on Instagram. And I saw her on Instagram. She had this like big following and I was like, “Who is this?” like and so the first time I talked to her, I asked her, Where did you come from? Who have you worked with? Like, who did you learn from? And she was kind of like, I don’t know, I kind of came out of nowhere. So Kelley has in the last couple of years, three years, two years, really gotten a lot of traction on Instagram with her content as the Private Practice Pro, where she teaches therapists how to start up their private practices. She describes in one course she described to me off mic is really about taking people from the idea, the dream of starting a practice until that first session that they have. And today, Kelley and I get into the topic of investing and taking risks in your business. If you’re listening and you’re either starting off in private practice or you already have a private practice and you’re thinking about expanding beyond it. My conversation with Kelly today we get into the emotional experience of making big and financial investments how to think about financial investments when it’s the right time to make financial investments and the things that she spent money on her business versus what I spent money on in my business, which are actually quite different things and why we’ve made those decisions for ourselves. So this is a good episode to listen to if you find yourself kind of wondering when to spend money or finding it hard to spend money, if you have a hard time spending money on your business, this is going to be a good episode to get you thinking about what is really worth spending money on for you and what is not. Here’s my conversation with Kelley Stevens. 

 

[00:02:54] So, Kelley, welcome back to the podcast. 

 

Kelley [00:02:56] Thank you for having me. It’s so nice to be back. I feel like we just were together.

 

Linzy [00:03:03] It was a little while ago. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:03:05] Time is flying. And I also think, you know, things have evolved and there’s been a lot of growth for you, I think, since we last chatted as well, which is part of what we’re going to chat about today. 

 

Kelley [00:03:16] Yeah, I’m excited. 

 

Linzy [00:03:18] Yeah. So today we were going to have a chat about kind of like managing risk and growth. So can you just tell folks just to give folks a sense who are listening of your own experience, what has been like your business trajectory or growth for this business that you’re in now that we’re talking about now? 

 

Kelley [00:03:35] Okay. So first of all, I feel like, you know, in podcast land, it’s like you could go so depth there, but I’m just going to give you the kind of overview. Okay. I run a company now called Private Practice Pro, and we teach therapists how to open private practices through online resources. So that’s like online courses, primarily workbooks, live workshops, mini courses, everything online, right? We don’t have any physical products and I don’t currently do any one on one coaching. I do some, but I’m not taking anyone right now. So it’s primarily all online resources. So when I decided to launch this business, it was really different. I had launched my own private practice. I moved it to three different cities because of my husband’s job, and I had experience doing marketing for a large treatment center. So I’d always been kind of that 1 to 1 client model. And I thought, well, why not try to create online resources? And with that, that required me to take on some risk. So I think when you and I were talking, you’re like, let’s talk about risk and especially risk as it comes to money. You know, I think it’s one of those things like people don’t want to, you know, everyone wants to open online course or an online platform, but no one wants to be like, well, here’s how much money, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:04:49] Yes! 

 

Kelley [00:04:50] Let’s talk about the money, because that’s what your podcast is. 

 

Linzy [00:04:52] Yes, this Is what the podcast is about.  Yes. So the money piece, then, so what I’m hearing is like you, you had not just like had a private practice, but kind of had a private practice three times, you know, like opening in three different cities. So you have a lot of experience with starting up a private practice. Yeah, I’m curious. Like first off, what has been the difference in the let’s talk about like the emotional experience of kind of the money of private practice and starting in private practices versus this like scaled online offer that you have helping therapists with their private practices? 

 

Kelley [00:05:24] That’s a good question. So, yes, I do. So I’ve essentially opened three different private practices, even though they functioned under the same business entity. You know, it was essentially like starting over because of my husband’s job. We had to move. I wouldn’t have done it otherwise. And this was prior to COVID and prior to telehealth being so predominant. The third move that I did, I saw more virtual people, but there’s like not more virtual people, like more virtual appointments. 

 

Kelley [00:05:53] More people virtually. Yes. 

 

Kelley [00:05:54] Yeah, exactly. But prior to that, it was like starting a whole new client base of in-person clients. And then prior to that, I also did the marketing for a large private practice. There were about 12 of us. Yeah, that was a kind of its own experience because even though we functioned as a group, it was a group practice owned by owners. Everyone still needed to bring in their own clients. So, you know, I think I got to see really firsthand different personality types and bringing in different types of clients and how people could market themselves as introverts and as extroverts. And, you know, there’s no one way to do it. But what I always think of private practice, and this is what I tell a lot of the people I work with as I help them over their private practices is there’s a lot less startup than if you were going to say like open a McDonald’s, for example, or. 

 

Kelley [00:06:42] I mean, McDonald’s has a huge startup clause, right? What do they say? It’s like an average million to sort of McDonald’s or… 

 

Linzy [00:06:47] Sure, I believe it. 

 

Kelley [00:06:48] Yeah. But for private practice, you know, I think the beauty of our job is like, first of all, nowadays you could totally start just telehealth or you could start with an office too. And it’s not like you’re buying tons of dental equipment or tons of products or warehousing a ton of stuff. I mean, it’s really you are the product and you have your office, you have some malpractice insurance, you need a billing system and things, but the actual startup cost is very feasible without going in saying like getting a loan or a line of credit. You know, you’re not necessarily going to go into debt by opening a private practice. Some people may choose to, but you don’t have to. Whereas when I decided to open an online platform, I very quickly realized that there was going to be some startup cost. And what I feel like any time you have startup costs, you say to yourself, okay, I need X amount of money to do this. And then it’s like, now I need X amount of time to get to sell enough to be out of debt. And then, I’m going to start making money! Whereas in private practice you might be profitable in your first month. You might not be, but potentially I think the get out of debt, you know, card is quicker unless you have start-up money to begin with, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:08:09] Yes. Because what I’m hearing is, you know, your experience is that that online, online platform, had a lot more expenses associated. So I’m curious for you like what have some of those expenses been. Yeah. The money you had to put in before you could even start selling the thing to make your money back. 

 

Kelley [00:08:26] So, okay, so I, I thought it would be really helpful just to break down the actual numbers. Because I really wish when I had started out, actually somebody did do this for me, but I talked to plenty of people that were like, You’re going to need some money, right? 

 

Linzy [00:08:39] Some money… 

 

Kelley [00:08:39] Okay, but like, how much? You know? So my original estimate when I said to myself, okay, I’m going to create one online course, that’s it, and I’m going to market it through Instagram and a website. My original estimate when I first started was 20,000 U.S. dollars. I ended up spending about 40, but I think I could have done it for 20 had I not trained to do it so quickly. 

 

Linzy [00:09:09] Right? So yeah. 

 

Kelley [00:09:11] So when it comes to online business, there are things where you can choose to DIY or you can choose to outsource. So for example, filming an online course, right? You might choose to film your first online course on Zoom and use PowerPoint slides, or you might hire a professional video team and have them film it. There’s no one right way to do that, right? I’ve taken some online courses that are filmed on Zoom and PowerPoint and they’re great, honestly, maybe better than some of the ones I’ve seen that are professionally shot because sure, there’s less nervousness about a new online course right now from home. And I’ve had courses professionally shot and I think the one that I’m shooting from home is better. But for example, when I shot my first online course, I did choose to have it professionally shot and that alone cost me $9,000 and it turned out beautiful. And I wanted that first kind of flags to turn out beautifully. But so you’re going to make choices along the way. You know, another choice would be, am I going to hire somebody to make a professional website or a professional kind of e-commerce site, or am I going to do it on my own? Certainly it’s possible to do it on your own. Again, I chose to hire somebody. I had like a quick timeline and very quickly realized that I couldn’t do that on my own in the timeline that I wanted to do it, so I chose to invest in having somebody build me a really professional website. 

 

Kelley [00:10:36] So by the time that I launched my first course, I had spent about 40,000 and I was lucky enough that, you know, I have a private practice and I was doing well in my private practice, so I subsidized my own. I didn’t have to go out and get a loan. But that being said, I have a family, I have a mortgage, I have a child. And so my husband and I kind of sat down and I said, okay, you know, realistically I could float 20, but then I ended up floating 40. And it was like, I really need to pay this 40 back to us as a family within a year. And why I went and decided to do it so quickly, right? Because I was like, we can’t float it more than that. You know, we have other expenses in our life that we had to pay for. But that was a huge motivator. That was like, well, even if nothing works out, even if this platform does not work, I at the minimum have to make 40,000 in this next year. Doing this, even if I’m not profitable, which I did it. I mean, that happened really quickly. So … 

 

Linzy [00:11:38] Yes. Yeah, you did pay back. 

 

Kelley [00:11:39] I did pay back. And it was a fun day, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:11:41] Yeah. When you crossed that threshold. 

 

Kelley [00:11:43] Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:11:44] I mean, as you’re saying this, there’s a few things that stick out to me. First of all, I need to just say this is the nerdy money part of me, but like, I so appreciate the clarity that you had on your numbers and like, you and your husband sitting down and talking about it and agreeing on your timeline and like, because I think that that makes it very tangible, too, in terms of setting goals, right? Where it’s like the tangibility of it, I think is really motivating because what I see a lot of folks do when they’re starting either their private practice or their second thing, their launch or their scaled offer, their their course they want to build in the side, is when you don’t have clarity on those numbers, there’s just kind of this ambiguous, like “I’m spending a lot” and like “Ugh,am I going to make it back” in like, “Oh, do I have more to spend”? And that ends up making it this very emotional kind of blurry experience. And what I’m hearing that you did is you were very clear, like, this is what we can afford. Okay? I went beyond that. And by going beyond that, this is exactly the timeline that we need because this is what we can afford in terms of carrying this debt. Just like very clear, clear-minded in your relationship to these amounts. 

 

Kelley [00:12:46] Yeah. I mean, it really had to be that way. I think that tends to be how I function financially anyway. You know, I want to know. Exactly. You know how long I have to pay it back, how much it’s going to cost me. And I agree with you. And I think that I’ve seen many entrepreneurs and therapists in particular kind of continue to take on like, oh, I need this, and then I need that. And there were certainly things even within the 40,000 that I would have liked to do right away where I said, no, this is our hard and fast number. We’re not going to do that right now. That’s going to take another year. I have to be profitable before I’m willing to put more money in. 

 

Linzy [00:13:25] Yes, And that’s exactly the second thing that stuck out to me is this time-money equation. Right. And I think this is a decision that as we’re growing businesses, we’re always making these decisions. Whether or not we’re naming them as such as it’s like, for instance, I could take this course and learn how to do X, Y, Z from somebody who lives and breathes this topic, but it’s going to cost me $1,000 or $750. Or I could take the time to try to like learned it and maybe read some books and like talk to people and kind of learn this skill more organically. I won’t have spent $1,000, but it might take me like nine months or a year or even two years to really feel like I, like hammer down these skills, right? And I think that there’s endless things that we could pay people to do for us and to teach us. And any of those things, we could also try to figure out on our own or to do ourselves. And what I think I’m hearing with you, it is a lot of ways there was a priority on making it happen faster. So you made these investments to accelerate the process for yourself? 

 

Kelley [00:14:24] Yeah, definitely. And and the reason I know that to be true is now, you know, I’m a few years into this thing and I’m about to launch another two courses. And certainly since that initial course, I’ve launched a lot of other things. So workbooks and ebooks and mini courses and all sorts of other stuff. So now I’ve done it a few times and for the quality of product I like to put out, I know I can get out the door with 10,000 or below. Now take into account my first time I went through it. I spent 40. There were many reasons why that was. One, it was my first time one, you know, and I don’t know that I would have done anything differently. Now because I’ve done it a few times, there’s things I don’t have to outsource. There’s systems that I know how to use. There’s programs I now know how to use, so I don’t have to pay someone to teach me how to do it in the same way. That’s number one. 

 

Kelley [00:15:12] And then number two, I’ve given myself more time. You know, I think the first time that I launched a course, I thought from this time I started filming it until the time I launched it, I gave myself three months. This time I gave myself a year. So I’m a little smarter, you know? I’m like, No, there’s no way I’m going to do this in three months again, you know? And I think the second part to that is that I’m a mom. And so there’s always this equation of when will I have more childcare, when will I not? I’m also, I’ve told Linzy, I’m also pregnant, so it’s like I have to time out all of that. And so I think any time you balance motherhood or parenthood with business, there is that relationship too of like how much childcare do I have? I’m paying for that. How much time do I have before I’ll have another child or not or, or whatever. And all that time and money go together, you know, with the childcare element too. 

 

Linzy [00:16:02] So yeah, there’s an equation there I think that’s constantly kind of evolving. And so for you then, Kelley, like having made a larger investment because of you wanted things to happen faster, you wanted things to be a certain way, so you invested quite a bit in your first course. How did you relate to that investment emotionally? Like what emotions went with that for you? 

 

Kelley [00:16:23] You know, it was so scary and depressed. Like to me, $40,000 is not a little bit of money. That was how much I spent on my MFT degree, my master’s degree, which nowadays sounds like not a lot of student debt, you know, I mean, programs are really expensive, but back when I went to school was that was exactly how much I took out as a loan for my master’s degree. And I think I took like 39,500 or something and had a full time job during that time. So I was able to float some of it. But so to me, thinking about the number of 40,000 and just in terms of our own family and our, you know, it was a lot of money and it required just so much belief in myself. I had to have some inclination that I knew I’d be able to, at the minimum, pay it back. And I did, you know, I knew I had a lot of experience in the area that I teach in. I went ahead and just like done it once by myself and then said, okay, well now people replicate how I do it. I had done it for other companies. I’d done some consulting work for other companies. So I taught into a master’s program. So I knew I knew how to teach it, and I knew I was a good teacher. So I knew enough to say to myself, like, okay, I know I can think of myself as long as I suspend the fear long enough. As I got toward the launch, on my first launch day, I made no sales, not one. And now we have like 600 people or something in that original course. But on day one, I sold no courses and I remember thinking, God, it was like a horrible day. It makes you want to cry. I remember thinking, like, at that point, when I launched my course, I had about 11,000 Instagram followers, and I remember thinking “At least a thousand are going to buy this course”. Please. 

 

Kelley [00:18:16] I really luckily had some really wonderful mentors and other therapist friends in the online space that said to me they were like, Kelly, I think a conservative number would be 1% of your audience in the first year. And I was like, “No way, really 1%”, you know? But now at this point, my audience is about 45,000 and we’ve done about 600 courses in that original course. So we’re a little above 1%, but not much. 

 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yeah, not much. 

 

Kelley [00:18:46] A really good estimate. And now when I launch products and I make investments into different products, I use that number and I say, okay, if we were just going to sell 1%, to 1% of this audience, how much do I think, can I afford to spend on the creation of the product? 

 

Linzy [00:19:04] Right. Yeah, I’m with you for that equation. Like when you think about how much to spend on investing in something, thinking about the 1% of your audience, how much money are you trying to make above the investment to like, like what makes it worth it for you? Because it’s not just paying back the the cost of it, but also how much do you want to see yourself make to be like that was worth it. 

 

Kelley [00:19:23] Oh, 100%. Yeah. I’m not in this to like, make no money. Right? So yeah, in that initial year I thought like, okay, I want to like break a 100 in revenue, so I want to do 40,000 in debt, you know, get rid of that 40,000 debt and then take home a 100. Which I did in that first year. So that was like I launched like, like what, say January, I launched the course in March, and then I had to get to December. You know, So really in terms of billing time, that’s more like seven or eight months, you know. But yeah, you have to do all of that because it’s not just that you can get out of debt, right? I’m a mom, I have a mortgage, I have kids to put through preschool, which is like basically the cost of my mortgage. Like to break even in life is not the same thing as breaking even in just in terms of my cost. Yeah. So and then also I was I’m running, you know, I’ve run a private practice. I had to take time away from my other business to launch this business. And certainly for many weeks and months there was a floating, you know, it was a little crazy for a while. It wasn’t like super balanced for a long time. Now it’s a lot better. My schedule is better than it even was in private practice. You know, when seeing full-time 1 to 1 clients but it took a minute to get there. 

 

Linzy [00:20:37] Yeah. And you know what? I’m the way that I think about this and talk about this sometimes with students in Money Skills For Therapists is like, it’s an investment period, right? So it’s like, how do you manage an investment period emotionally? And also in terms of making those decisions. Right. And something that I think is important as we’re thinking about your course and like the money you invested, you did just say you had an Instagram audience of 11,000 people. That’s also a good reason to bet on yourself, right? Like, I think if we’re thinking strategically, it’s like, yes, mindset wise, we need to believe in ourselves. We need to commit, you know, be like, I’m going to do what it takes. But also, you had already taken strategic action beforehand that showed you like you already had a brand. 

 

Kelley [00:21:15] Yeah. And I should say that and that you’re so right. Linzy like, I think that was the best piece of advice I ever got. I had a few friends that were in the mom space, the mom influencer space who had launched like very successful courses way, you know, had just ridiculous audience sizes. And multiple people told me, well, first somebody told me you shouldn’t launch until you have 5000 followers. And I remember thinking like when I first opened my Instagram account, like, how am I going to get 5000 followers? I mean, like, like I have 2. You know? And I don’t necessarily know that that’s true, right? I think depending on the product, especially if you have a high touch consulting, I don’t think it has to be a certain number. But I knew that if I was going to take the risk, I needed some proof of concept. And for me I decided that that proof of concept was going to be an Instagram audience. And so I didn’t even start writing the course, building the course, trying to sell to my audience until I actually was at 10,000. Had I not reached 10,000, I would have waited a few months to launch. 

 

Linzy [00:22:26] Right, okay  

 

Kelley [00:22:29] At that time, part of the appeal of 10,000 and this is no longer the case on Instagram is you got that swipe up feature, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:22:36] Oh yeah, I remember that. 

 

Kelley [00:22:37] Like swipe up for this, you don’t get that anymore. So at the time I was like, Oh, I’m not going to launch until I have that feature. And then it became more so the fact that I felt like the more of a following I built, the more I knew what the audience I was actually going to sell to needed. The products that I might have designed at two followers was going to be really different than the product design at 5000. 10,000, now at 40 something thousand. I’m much more clear on what my audience wants. So we’re going to redo the course and do a lot more. And then everyone who’s already bought it will get the same updated version again, you know, included. You know, I think when therapists come to me and they say, you know, I really want to launch this online course, but I haven’t built a following yet. You know, you can build a following and not spend any money doing it. Instagram is free, you know. And so I always tell people, like, spend time really getting to know the people you’re going to sell a product to and nobody. And it also, you know, I think shows that you’re willing to stick with it because if you’re… 

 

Linzy [00:23:41] Yes. 

 

Kelley [00:23:43] … posting Reels, posting what whether it’s Instagram or TikTok or a podcast, you realize there’s like a lot of just background work that you’re not getting paid for. So if you really want to be doing that and serving the people that you want to sell to, one day you’ll continue doing it and you’ll work at building an audience prior. If you’re not willing to put in that time to build an audience, then and you spend $40,000 to launch a course and you get crickets. I mean, I had a big audience and I got crickets on day one. Now the launch went way better later on. What if I had no followers? Like, I can’t imagine. And I’ve seen people do that where they’ve launched a course and they’re like, Why isn’t anyone buying this? And then I’ll say well, who is going to buy? 

 

Linzy [00:24:26]  Yeah, who is it for? And, you know, yeah. And I, you know, that is, you know, for folks listening, I will also say Instagram is one way to do that. You, Kelley, are amazing on Instagram. You’ve built a huge audience. How what’s your what’s your follower account now? 

 

Kelley [00:24:41] 43 something. But if you ask me how many followers I have on YouTube and it’s 100. Okay. Oh. 

 

Kelley [00:24:49] Follow me on YouTube, please. 

 

Linzy [00:24:53] Together we can double your follower account if a 100 folks just jump over now, if you’re listening, go follow Kelley on YouTube. Yeah. And we all have our thing, right? So, like, you know, you mentioned like the 5000 thing, don’t sell until you. Kelley, like I hit 5000 followers, like two weeks ago. 

 

Kelley [00:25:06] Yeah, exactly. So, right. 

 

Linzy [00:25:08] So it’s like but I’ve been running an online business successfully for four years. So, you know, but, you know, I will say when I first sold my course, I sold it through email and I had an email list of 600 people. So it’s like much smaller number, but emails, higher touch. At that time too, it was easier to sell an email. There were less people in the space. But it’s like, yeah, you need someone to sell to, when you’re going to build something. You need an audience somewhere.  Even if it’s your local network and you have a really great, like, you know, high profile in your local community, you need to have a, you know, name recognition somewhere so that people know that you’re selling and they’re, you know, you’ve got their attention somewhere. And I think that’s such an important piece as we talk about financial risk, because I think sometimes there is this mentality of like. Well, there’s two mentalities. One is the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. The other one is like bootstrap it, don’t spend anything, figure it all out yourself. Don’t spend money on these. Like, you know, one of my colleagues just contacting the other day about a course that we’re both in together and she’s like, I thought it was a scam at first. Like, I wasn’t sure. I was like, it’s not a scam. Like, there’s lots of amazing courses out there, but it’s like, you know, easy to be skeptical. And I think that first school of thought, though, like, the more you spend, the more you get out of it. I’m curious your your thoughts on that mentality, given that you invested quite a bit in yours. What do you think about that kind of type of thinking about investing? 

 

Kelley [00:26:25] It’s a good question. You know, I would say I tend to be a DIY person. So, for example, when it came to my private practice, it was like I DIYed my own website. I thrifted all the furniture for my first office, you know, I mean, it was like. But I felt really confident in my ability to do so. Do you know what mean, like I knew I could make a good website for my private practice. I knew. And when I went to move into the online space, I was really aware that I wasn’t an expert. 

 

Kelley [00:26:59] And that there were questions that I didn’t even know to ask the question. Do you know what I mean, like as a therapist, starting a private practice, I’d had a ton of training. I’d spent five years as a marketing, you know, as a marketing person for another practice. I learned on the job. But I it wasn’t like I worked for an online course business or I worked for something where I learned on the job. So going from very little knowledge to a course launch in four months, I knew that there were pitfalls that I couldn’t even see, you know? And for that reason, I felt like I’m investing in the knowledge of other professionals. And I think that, that regardless of whether I’m investing my time, you know, which I think that’s one, you know, you bootstrap it and you’re investing your time in learning from people so you can do it or you’re investing your money and they’re going to help me do this. And ideally, I’m going to learn along the way. But I don’t always, you know, like I’m still my email funnels, man. I like I’m I still ask for help on those, but I think either way, it’s an investment. 

 

Linzy [00:28:02] Right, investing time or investing money. Yeah. What comes to mind for me too, with that first the first school of thought, the like, the more you invest, the more you make is it does need to be strategic investments. 

 

Kelley [00:28:13] Oh a 100% 

 

Linzy [00:28:14] And you need to be able to look and say okay based on these factors, based on my audience size, based on the interviews, like before I made Money Skills for Therapists, actually before I even started offering any financial services to therapists, like any coaching, I did like eight information interviews with people, like really like. And some of those people are like people who are my friends still today, you know, But like, I met them at like a training together. And I was like, tell me about your relationship with money. Like I really drilled into those ideal people. So that before, again what I might have made would have been different if I hadn’t had those conversations. Right? And if I hadn’t, like, put things out there, I’d been getting feedback on those things. I wouldn’t have been able to make the right thing if I had not actually kind of immersed myself in my audience. But I think what I what I want to make clear for folks listening, at least my perspective is you can’t skip that step, right? You can’t just spend money. 

 

Kelley [00:29:05] There are some steps where you can’t skip it. 

 

Linzy [00:29:07] You can’t skip it. 

 

Kelley [00:29:08] I believe if you’re not an expert in the material that you’re teaching and you don’t really know the pain points and the struggles and the solutions to the people you’re going to teach it to, you can’t just hire someone to do that. You know, especially if you’re going to base the business around your knowledge, because then you’re just going, I don’t know. You know what? Yeah, No, I agree with you on that. 

 

Linzy [00:29:29] Yeah. And so I think, you know, something that I encourage folks to think about is return on investment. Like when you are making an investment, think about first of : right thing, right time. Is this the right thing for you? Is this actually what you need? Do you actually have the bandwidth to take it on and fulfill it? Because there’s lots of amazing courses, but if you don’t actually do them, yeah, you’re not going to get the results right. 

 

Kelley [00:29:49] I have a couple of those courses. 

 

Linzy [00:29:51] Yes. Yeah, I’m sure I have some of those too you know, that were never touched, it is basically like a book on the shelf that you never read. But then the other thing is, is putting it into that context of like, is this the right thing in this stage of my business growth? Am I trying to skip steps because you can’t actually pay to skip steps. 

 

Kelley [00:30:05] You can’t. 

 

Linzy [00:30:06] In your business, whether that’s private practice growth, whether that’s, you know, online business growth, there’s some things that you just have to go through. So, Kelley, I’m curious then for you. First of all, I do really appreciate to go back just a little bit. I really appreciate you talking about how scary it was to make the investment and those early days of launching. Launching, you know, and I had Annie Schussler on the podcast last season. We chatted about launching like it is. It’s not fun, okay. 

 

Kelley [00:30:31] I hate it so much. I even hate the word. 

 

Linzy [00:30:35] I think the only folks I know who really seem to like launching are people who are like really, really high extrovert, really high like stimulation seeking because it is intense. So if like, really intense things make you feel calm, you’re going to like launching. Otherwise, like, yeah, it’s stressful, right? So there’s that. Yeah, but you’re betting on yourself and then you’re kind of waiting to see if you did it right or if you’re doing it right and if it’s going to come back. I appreciate you saying that because I think that’s a good reality check. Because sometimes, like when we watch somebody else, like when we see their business,. 

 

Kelley [00:31:04] I’ve launched and I did 300 sales on day one. 

 

Linzy [00:31:07] Yeah. Oh, yeah, there’s that too. Yeah. And I was going to say to you, from the outside, I think it always seems like somebody’s business is going well. Rarely are they going to like go on their Instagram or write an email being like, “it’s dark days here guys. I haven’t had a sale in three months.” But for you thinking about that 40,000 you spent first of all, I’m curious what was in that $40,000? 

 

Kelley [00:31:27] My two biggest expenses were number one: trademarking I hired an attorney to do and that cost me… well, actually wasn’t my biggest expense, but it was an expensive one, it was like 2500. Shooting the course ended up costing me about 9000 at the door. Part of that was because I did it in a hotel I like. I didn’t do it at home. I have a toddler and it was COVID and you know, there’s was just no way. So I did it in a really nice space. I hired a professional video team, editing team, all that. So that was one of my bigger ones. I could not use my private practice website, you know, like I was using Squarespace at the time. I switched into a platform called Kajabi, which I’ve actually switched away from, but and I liked Kajabi. That’s a whole other episode on that. So I needed to hire somebody to build me a new website. I knew I could build it Kajabi. And actually I like to joke with my website editor because I called him and I was like, Can I just pay for like three or 4 hours of your time to just teach me how to use Kajabi? And then I’ll build the website. And, you know, that was like a good idea, but in the end it wasn’t going to get done in the timeline I wanted it to get in. So I ended up hiring him to do that. And I can’t remember how much, I want to say, spent around 7000 on that and then trademarking and then shooting the course. What else? Oh, I spent a lot on ads. I bought a lot of Instagram ads. I knew, well I don’t know if I knew, but I do know now that for me I think I’m pretty good at converting people who find me into buying from me. So I was willing to spend money on ads. So I spent probably another five or 6000 on ads in the course of a year. And then I needed some gear to film. So I bought like a nice camera. Even though I’ve had it professionally filmed, there was just supplemental things that needed to be filmed, that I filmed from home. I had to start a new company. So originally I thought that I could run my consulting and online course business through my private practice. I had, had a private practice business, and very quickly, my attorney who did my trademarking was like, No. You need a separate S corp. So yeah, and I spent four or 5000 setting up a new corp doing, you know. Again, I could have done it for significantly less than I did it for. But I hired an attorney to do all the people I just like, Yeah, went through it pretty quickly to make sure it was really clean and separate from my and that includes like, you know, at that point I had to pay 2500 to pay for my taxes for that year for that S corp. 

 

Linzy [00:34:06] Yes. 

 

Kelley [00:34:06] I don’t just mean just the course, but I mean. The launch of the course, which also meant the launch of a business. 

 

Linzy [00:34:13] Yeah, you really set up everything. And also you made investments on like I’m sure the camera. Hopefully you still have it and you can still use it. And those kinds of things that are like those long-term startup costs. You paid for it then, but will continue using it. 

 

Kelley [00:34:26] Exactly like, for example, trademarking. I didn’t have to trademark at that point in time, so I could have never spent that 2500. But I very early on had heard a story about a friend of a friend who had started a company, branded, built a huge Instagram following, and then the same name was used by like an adult industry thing. And they had to but like they had to redo all their SEO. And I knew that, that 2500 would save me money down the road if I had to rebrand. I was going to spend money on my search engine optimization. I was already, I knew, at the point that I was making this investment that I was going, growing pretty quickly on Instagram and that rebranding my Instagram would cost me money. So at that point I was like, no, I need to spend the money on trademarking. Even though at this point in time do I want to spend $2500 on something that feels to me like a piece of paper which is promoting my brand. But I was like, You’ve got to be kidding me, You know, out of this precious, like investment nest egg, I’m going to spend 2500 of that to trademark something? You know, and it takes a long time, in the States. A trademark comes back in eight months to a year. 

 

Linzy [00:35:37] Oh, wow. 

 

Kelley [00:35:38] I just like, yeah, it was even slower than that. And I just finished wrapping mine up and we had some like back and forth with other companies and things which again, I had to pay my attorney for. But now I like own my brand, which is very valuable, yeah, I don’t want an adult film private practice pro to come out and then I have, you know, like a different name. Anyway. 

 

Linzy [00:36:00] It seemed like not very likely, but not impossible. 

 

Kelley [00:36:03] I know, can you believe like I have a podcast and that’s the first episode of my next season is talking is talking to the person that happened. 

 

Linzy [00:36:09] Oh, yeah. Who went through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because what I’m hearing is like that 40,000 for you. It really was foundation building. It wasn’t just making a course, it was it wasn’t making a course with polish. Like, I’m sure you know, my, my course Money Skills for Therapist, which is still my main course, I shot myself. Sometimes the camera angle is weird. Sometimes I’m like, that was a weird choice I made that day. But the content stands up and has continued to stand up and, you know, and like 450 people have gone through the course so far. So it’s like we, we make decisions. I think of like again, that time-money equation, the like what feels important at the moment where we want polish and where we’re willing to DIY. And that’s going to be different for everybody, based on like our circumstances and our energy and like what’s important to us as well. 

 

Kelley [00:36:50] 100% I don’t think I’ll ever professionally shoot a course again. I’m literally, after we hang up today, I’m going to shoot video for my next course and I will shoot it from home. Now, you know, because I realized that did I need to spend that 9000, like, could I buy a beautiful camera and pay an editor? So like, now in my next course, you know, just the filming won’t cost me anything because I’ll film it, but then I’ll pay my editor about like 2500 to edit the whole thing. It’s a lot less than 9000, so, you know, But we live and we learn. 

 

Linzy [00:37:19] And we all have our own thing, right? So like, I think I’d rather get hit by a truck than make a website. Yeah, I hate making websites passionately for some reason. Doesn’t make sense, but I really dislike it. But I like doing my own film editing, so I edit my own videos. 

 

Kelley [00:37:33] Really? I’m the exact opposite! I would make a website any day of the week. Yeah, I hate editing. I hate like sitting down and working the camera. Oh my God, that’s so funny. 

 

Linzy [00:37:44] Yeah. So we all have our thing, right? But yeah, yeah, we would. We would be a good team. I am curious. I have one more question for you about investing. What is the best investment you’ve made in your business financially? 

 

Kelley [00:37:56] This is a good question. You know. Okay, so this is apart from the launch initially, and I should say, you know, caveat to the launch thing, I actually don’t do live launches now anymore. I felt like it didn’t align with my values. And even though I think I could sell more if I did it in that model, it’s not who I am as a person. So that could be a whole another episode about launching. Anyway, in about a year into my course, we were cranking, we had, you know, about 500 or so people in the course, and I was still at the point where I was running the company by myself. Meaning handling like all, you know, when you run a course, there’s questions, there’s Facebook groups, there’s emails, there’s technical, “I can’t log into this. I need help with this”, all of that kind of stuff I was doing. And I was still in my original platform. And at that point I decided to bring on a subcontractor to do a few things. One to help me rebrand my website, and two, to help me move platforms to a different. I decided to move to Thrive Cart. And that decision was not something at the time that I needed to do. I could have very easily stayed in the platform I was in, stayed with the website. It was beautiful and I’d really been open less than a year. And so at the time, you know, I had just like had a profitable year. And I was like, oh no, like, I’m going to I’m going to make another investment? But I was aware this was about a year ago now. Number one, that I wanted to have another baby. And number two, that the reason that I got into this business was to have more time with my family. And so in order to do that, I had to streamline my process much more. And I needed a platform that was much more automated. I needed a team that could run my website without me. And so I decided to make that investment. And it was all behind the scenes. Like, none of it made new profit, we’ve subsequently made new product, it’s been great and I love that. But at the beginning, the decision to hire a couple of team members was terrifying because I knew I could do it all technically, but I couldn’t do it all and stay within my values of being the mom I wanted to be. And so that was the best investment. And since bringing them on, we’ve been where I’m convinced that we have been more profitable than had I, had I continued to DIY it. I wouldn’t have created new products. They wouldn’t because I didn’t have the time. So you have to be more creative. 

 

Linzy [00:40:35] Yeah. And that’s I think that’s great for folks who are listening, who are thinking about making a hire to hear. Because, you know, sometimes I’ll, you know, often actually I’ll hear therapists even hesitating around like hiring a VA for a couple of hours a week. And it’s like, because I could do that, I could, I can answer the emails like I can, you know, whatever little tasks we want to do, post my blogs to my website. But what you’re saying, I think, really gets to the core of the value of having help is like: you are reclaiming your time and your bandwidth. You know, you’re allowing yourself to use that however you want, whether that’s making new things, you know, offering new things in your business or whether it’s reclaiming time for your life and time is very, very valuable. 

 

Kelley [00:41:15] I think for myself as a young mom in my thirties, with young kids being pregnant, having a toddler, time is my absolute most valuable, most limited commodity. And so I am willing to pay more to get that and make less. Now, that obviously comes with a certain amount of privilege because I am willing to make less. But it also means that I make some financial decisions where I’m like, Yeah, we could have more money, but I wouldn’t be able to pick my son up from school or that he still goes in, let’s be really clear. 

 

Linzy [00:41:56] Yeah, yeah. 

 

Kelley [00:41:56] But I mean, like, I’m done by 2:00 every day. 

 

Linzy [00:41:59] Oh, nice. 

 

Kelley [00:42:00] And in my previous life of full time private practice where I was seeing 20 to 30 clients a week, I was never done by I mean, I was done by seven or eight every night. 

 

Linzy [00:42:12] And I love that. And then I’ve made the same decision in my own business. I’ve been reflecting recently about how I could really get paid like a lot more in my business, like a lot more than I get paid. But every time I think about taking the tasks that different team members do on my own plate, I’m like: first of all, hell no! I don’t want to do their job. But secondly, it’s like for me, I think about I like to distinguish to even be on time, it’s like bandwidth. Like how much are we frying ourself during the day? Because it’s also for me about like how I am able to show up with my son or the other people in my life that I love. And I could cram some more tasks into my actual day and maybe still finish at the same time. But I’m going to be tired, right? I’m not going to be like I’m not going to have that energy to like this morning, by some miracle, my son and I both got amazing sleep and woke up at 630 and great moods and had this great morning together. 

 

Kelley [00:43:02] That is a miracle. 

 

Linzy [00:43:03] It was, it was a true miracle. And he was talking about breakdancing. So I was like, well, I’ll show you a breakdancing video. So we watch a breakdancing video. And then he wanted to have a breakdancing pad. So went under the basement. I set up like there was like a little pad down there that we already had. And like, he did some breakdancing moves and like that, for me, like, that’s about quality of time spent because I’m rested. I’m attentive. Like I’m not distracted or stressed by something. And like that to me, I know is my top priority, and my top value. And if my business is interfering with that, then like we have a problem. 

 

Kelley [00:43:34] Oh a 100%. And I, you know, one day, I got to see, you got to take up breakdancing. I think we need like a viral Instagram reel of you breakdancing. 

 

Linzy [00:43:43] That is so far from what is possible in this dimension. But thank you so much. I would do probably 100 thing before I would do breakdancing. But my son, on the other hand, does a lot of breakdancing moves already, which is why I was like: you’re breakdancing. He was like: what’s breakdancing? Like, he kind of like, does like the worm and stuff. So anyways, he must have learned at preschool. It’s super cute. Well, yeah. Kelley, thank you so much for coming back to the podcast today, talking about your experiences with investing and risk. If folks want to get further into your world, where can they find you and follow you? 

 

Kelley [00:44:16] Yeah. So obviously on Instagram at the Private Practice Pro. Same thing for our website, the Private Practice Pro dot com. I’m venturing my feet into all the other platforms and TikTok and YouTube follow me on there. All the same name, the Private Practice Pro. So. Yeah. Thank you, that was awesome. 

 

Linzy [00:44:36] Yeah. Thanks so much, Kelley. 

 

Linzy [00:44:50] From my conversation with Kelley, something that I really took away and that really stuck out is what we each spend money on in our businesses, and what’s worth it for us at certain times is going to be different for everybody. I think it would be hard to argue that there’s very many things that everybody needs to make a major investment to have it happen. I guess there are certain things like lawyers that you can’t really DIY, your own trademarking or whatever, but even when Kelley is talking about trademarking, I don’t have a trademark on what I do. I should actually go out and do that. I haven’t done that yet. Right. And I’m so far, knock on wood, doing just fine. Right? And so we’re all going to have different things that feel important or that given our circumstances, are important to spend money on. And those are going to look different for each of us depending on where we are in our business, what our needs are, what we’re good at, and what we like. Like I was saying, I like video editing. Kelly hates it. She’s going to make her own websites. I’m never going to do that. I have somebody on my team who does that for us. So really connecting with yourself and thinking about what is worth it for you to spend money on, either because of where you are strategically in your business or things that you’re just never going to do yourself and you’re never going to be good at. And the emotional pain of it is worth spending money on versus what is worth taking the time to do yourself either because like we talked about some things you can’t rush. Like you can’t rush, for instance, your audience research as you’re trying to figure out a niche and figure out your language. Like that is a process that has to happen through like communicating with the people you want to serve, gleaning things from a client that you’re seeing to start to understand who’s your niche. Those are things that take time. I don’t think you can really pay to cut corners on those kinds of things. But other things you certainly can do yourself. And it’s up to each of us to make strategic decisions as to where we want to spend our money in our businesses and where we would rather do things with our time instead, which is also a valuable resource. I really appreciate Kelley coming on the podcast today. 

 

Linzy [00:46:45] If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can follow me at Money Nuts and Bolts. Like I shared with Kelley, we’ve just passed 5000 followers, which is a very cute little number compared to her followers, but we’re very happy to have 5000 folks joining us on Instagram to have these conversations. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts. Leave me a review. I’ve said it before because it’s true. It is the best way for people to find the podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Meg [00:00:04] That’s a big thing that I talk about my coaching clients with is like when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning? 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. We are starting a new season today. Welcome back to season six of the podcast. We do our podcasts in 12-episode chunks so that my team and I can take breaks, we can breathe. I really like doing it that way. So we’ve had a little gap between seasons and now we’re back. And today’s guest is Megan Kelly. Megan Kelly is a mental health therapist in the state of Indiana, and she’s also a business coach for therapists. She runs the popular Instagram account, @antiworktherapist. And today, Megan and I talk about embodiment and therapy and money. We talk about the relationship between embodiment and therapy in general, the relationship between embodiment and money, like being in our bodies in relation to money. We talk about how our relationship with money can interfere with being in our bodies and also how our relationship with money and how money can support being in our bodies and what it’s like to actually have an embodied relationship with money. So we kind of covered embodiment and money from a few angles today. Meg talks about her experiences with burnout and being disconnected from her body and the work that she’s done to come more back into relationship with her body. How money supported her with that, but also about having an actual embodied relationship with money and being able to actually feel our bodies and be really present with money in a profound way and the benefits of that. Here is my conversation with Meg Kelly. So Meg, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Meg [00:02:43] Thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:02:44] Yeah, thank you for being on here. I wanted to get started. Meg, like I was mentioning to you I was taking a look at your Instagram beforehand and something really caught my eye as something that you really talk about and promote that I think gets so often missed in the therapy space, period, and in the therapy business space, which is about embodiment. So I’m curious for you, like what is your relationship to embodiment and therapy? Yeah, Tell me your thoughts on the space. 

 

Meg [00:03:14] Yeah, absolutely. So it’s taken me quite some time as a therapist to feel more embodied. Generally speaking, I’ve definitely struggled with it, both as a professional, as a person. When I first started my practice, it was very hard to feel… I don’t want to say like a human, but to feel like a human in my own body. So because there was so much going on in my mind and there’s so many things that I was trying to pay attention to: money, policies, how to get clients, everything involved, that, you know, it just it felt really hard to be present. And when I started my practice, I was coming out of a group practice where I got a lot of really good experience. But there were a lot of aspects of that that led me to be very burnt out, very disconnected from myself, and pretty hyper-focused on how hard things were at the time, which, you know, I don’t want to stay in a negative headspace a lot. It gets really hard to be there. So there was a lot of just, I don’t want to be here. I want to go out and do something else. I don’t wanna think about it. I don’t want to feel it. But I recognized over time that just- it wasn’t working for me as a person, but it also wasn’t working for my business to be in that space of just being so disconnected from everything. Right. 

 

Linzy [00:04:34] Yeah. Like, I mean it- and I’m sure many folks listening have experienced this- like when things are hard, for whatever reason, our work environment, it’s adaptive to tune out, right, and to become less connected to our bodies. But then I’m hearing that you also start to notice costs for that. 

 

Meg [00:04:50] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. It came a lot in the form of physical ailment, physical pain. Right? But there’s also detachment from people outside of my work. So detachment from my spouse and my stepson and friends and family that was part of the cost as well.  

 

Linzy [00:05:13] Mmm. Oh gosh, yes. And I’m curious like with your, with your work, were you disembodied in your work too. Like what did you notice in that therapist space? 

 

Meg [00:05:23] What was interesting about that is I found it very easy to tune in to the client. I have a decent amount of training in trauma, so I’m trained in EMDR. I have done a lot of work with polyvagal theory, window of tolerance, really checking in with the physical self and the emotional self in those spaces. I honestly found it quite easy to be in-tune and connected to a degree. There was definitely a lot of not wanting to feel pain in my neck or the pain in my back, or if I noticed that I was becoming internally, I guess you could say dysregulated that would be something that I wouldn’t want to necessarily lean into, but notice in those spaces. So using my training, it was easier in the therapeutic space to do that. But if I felt that way outside of my work, I would almost immediately try to shut it off some way, or try to get it out because it felt so painful when it would actually come up. 

 

Linzy [00:06:24] Yeah. And would that be kind of your own, like your basically bodily information about what’s actually happening for you? 

 

Meg [00:06:31] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:06:32] Yeah. That would be coming up. 

 

Meg [00:06:32] Absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:06:33] And you know, like that’s so interesting that you say that you’re able to tune in to your clients. And that’s what I was wondering because I just had a conversation this week, kind of briefly touched in passing with Heather, who coaches for me in Money Skills for Therapists, about how I notice for me, especially when I was a therapist, if was I feeling sick or having like my own stress at home or like some sort of conflict, how I could just turn that off as a therapist, It’s like this like switch that I could flip and then immediately just be attuned to that person and like, yeah, totally like window of tolerance. I used to. I still have it, actually. I had Janine Fischer’s like, flip chart of like the window of tolerance. I had this whole thing. I would go through it. Mine’s getting very yellowed and I don’t use it anymore, but I still have it, like really helping somebody else attune to their body and like, reading their somatic cues. And sometimes I would even like, have mirror symptoms with my clients, like feel like, oh, my chest is feeling really tight. I don’t usually have that, but it’s all about connecting with that person and their body, but not actually being connected with my body, which I find really convenient when I have a cold and I feel crappy. 

 

Meg [00:07:33] Yeah, I had an entire day one time I worked with food poisoning. I didn’t realize it, like I knew I didn’t feel great. I was in sessions. I was fine. I’m all telehealth too, so that was helpful. But at the end of the session, I was like, Well, I really- I do not feel good right now. I can’t believe I just worked all day. 

 

Linzy [00:07:56] And, you know, I do remember I attended – just one time, but it was so good – I attended the conference for the International Society for the Study of Trauma Dissociation, and there was an Australian presenter talking about how therapists have to dissociate to do our work, right, like just the position our bodies are in, the amount of time that we have to hold still and like not be distracting to somebody else, be attuned to somebody else. Like we have to tune out those bodily cues in order to do this. It’s almost like built into the work. I’m curious, like your thoughts about that? 

 

Meg [00:08:29] Yeah, I do find that there is a certain amount of not letting myself get in the way, so to speak. I think that’s kind of an interesting way or different way to frame it. And the more training I get in polyvagal therapy and how that can be both very helpful for the client, but also in checking in with the self. It helps me understand if I am joining or enmeshing with a client. Big difference there. It can be hard sometimes to know the difference until you get some sense of what those bodily cues are. Yeah, but even then if I notice, like, wow, I’m actually taking on anxiety. Like my heart’s racing as my client is talking. That is where I can tell I’m a little more enmeshed than I would like to be. So it’s helpful to some degree, but I don’t want to become overinvolved in that either. 

 

Linzy [00:09:21] Yeah, of course. Of course. So, you know, you’re saying that kind of at the beginning of then stepping into practice, there was this more disembodiment, which sounds like it was kind of a leftover from your previous environment. I’m curious how did that shift or change over time? 

 

Meg [00:09:40] In a very bumpy, roundabout, difficult way? 

 

Linzy [00:09:45] Got it. 

 

Meg [00:09:46] So for those who are familiar with my work, I had and I still have, although it’s been on pause for a while, a podcast called Mental Status, which is primarily about burnout within the mental health field. And so I had interview-style episodes with other therapists talking about burnout. That was, in my mind as I’m looking back, one of the biggest signs to myself, like, my goodness, maybe it’s time to like, actually pay attention to this. I knew at some level that I was burned out working where I was working, but it wasn’t until I actually got out of that environment that the remnants started showing up. A lot of scarcity, a lot of ups and downs, emotionally, a lot of fatigue. That first six months of practice, I was either on an emotional high, like I felt great, or I was so tired and so frustrated and so overwhelmed that I felt like, I don’t even want to do this anymore. I just I don’t know why I got into this career. I don’t know why I’m doing this. I need to just like, close up shop and go back to working in marketing. So it was all of that. It wasn’t until probably the fall of that first year that I really started to feel like, No, I’m intentionally making this choice to be here. I am choosing to do this practice, I’m choosing these policies, I’m choosing my schedule. I’m the one making it difficult for myself in a lot of ways, or easy, depending on how I look at it. Yes, I do. I actually want to do this because, yes, I’m the one in charge. 

 

Linzy [00:11:23] Takes a while to catch up, eh? To ourselves. Yeah, I do. I have like noticed it’s just so easy to just replicate the environment that we were just in, even if it’s just on an emotional level of not connecting with the fact that you’re actually the boss now, you actually get to make like all the decisions and you can make it look however you need it to look. I find people have a really hard time giving themselves permission or actually stepping into that empowerment. We end up kind of acting like there is somebody else making the decisions. Not for our betterment. Some shadowy figure, I guess. I’m not sure. 

 

Meg [00:11:55] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:11:56] But it’s definitely like this repetition that happens. 

 

Meg [00:11:58] And what I noticed too is both sort of feeling like there should be somebody else in charge. That’s kind of how I felt at times, like, I don’t want this. Somebody else should be in charge. Take it away from me. And also a little bit in handing that off to clients, which fortunately in my first year of practice I was in a coaching container actually with a former podcast guest of yours, Felicia Keller Boyle. 

 

Linzy [00:12:22] Oh lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Meg [00:12:24] So I was in her year-long coaching container and one of the things that she always talked about is you don’t ask other people for permission to run your business the way you need to run it. And that just really stuck with me. And eventually I caught up with myself and finally, like, embodied that part of my practice as well. 

 

Linzy [00:12:47] Let’s get to where you are today. 

 

Meg [00:12:49] Mm hmm. 

 

Linzy [00:12:50] Today, how do you relate to your own embodiment and how do you think embodiment and therapy go together? 

 

Meg [00:12:59] Mm hmm. Well, outside of work now, I currently, for the most part, love to be in my body. I found a lot of ways that work for me to either gently or more vigorously get back into myself once I get out of the therapy space. So one thing that I’ve mentioned and some of the stuff that I’ve published is CrossFit. Now, I know a lot of people have a lot of ideas about CrossFit. I personally feel like it came into my life at the perfect time. It was the right gym for me. It was the right people, the right type of movement. Doing something like that helps me feel very viscerally alive after being very much in my head all day as part of the work. It’s very cerebral, unless you’re doing really specific somatic work. Yeah, there’s a lot of talking, a lot of thinking. And so going into those spaces helps me reconnect. And even in the therapy space, as I’m learning more, I’m starting to connect more with my physical self in the space. I’ve started to learn that, like, I have this thing right here, I have fidgets with me, right? Like, and this is something that helps. And I felt weird about that for a very long time. And I’m just like, now I pick this up and show my clients. I’m like, Look, I’m squeezing this fidget ball underneath my desk. Like, this helps me too. Yes, you can do the same. 

 

Linzy [00:14:22] Yes. 

 

Meg [00:14:23] Yes. So it feels much more natural and less strenuous, I’d say, overall, the way that I’m practicing today.

 

Linzy [00:14:33] And as you know, this is a money podcast. So we’re going to bring in the money piece now. 

 

Meg [00:14:38] Absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:14:39] What have you noticed about how money and the way that people relate to money? Like I’m going to say, people’s relationship with money, how can that interfere with embodiment? 

 

Meg [00:14:50] I can talk about myself in that regard. When I first started my practice, there was a lot of content that I was consuming from a lot of really cool therapists online who were talking about your six-figure practice. And that, in my mind, was sort of set forth as like, that is the goal. That’s where I’m headed. That’s what I need. Because that’s just like. That’s what people do, right? Like, that’s where we’re going. And the way it showed up for me was even when I was having other types of success in my practice, even if I was having success with clients, finding clients, retaining clients, really good therapeutic work, or if I was connecting with other therapists or put in a policy that I felt really supported me. Yeah, if something wasn’t reflected in the dollar signs, I’d be like, It’s not working right? Which is not true. And I say that with the the second or third month that I was in practice, I made the most money in one month that I had ever made in my life. And I still felt like I was back in that group practice where I was making a quarter of that amount. It felt like that to me. I was like, This doesn’t feel stable or safe. That number doesn’t seem real. So it can be a very just like. You don’t quite know how to step into that space. Initially, it feels, for me, it felt very unreal, almost, that I was making that type of money. 

 

Linzy [00:16:23] Yeah. Like there’s there’s a disconnection there. Or like, a lack of presence or trust. Right. Like you didn’t trust the numbers were real. 

 

Meg [00:16:31] No. 

 

Linzy [00:16:32] And this is what I noticed, I think, with a lot of therapists also, I think tend to skew towards perfectionism and like being goal oriented. And I have noticed, like, it can be hard for us to connect with success, like actually viscerally physically connect to success and feel excited or feel proud or feel accomplished or empowered like, I did that, like physically, like owning it. There can be this real disconnection for good numbers. 

 

Meg [00:17:04] Oh, absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:17:04] Of course we own the failure immediately. That’s me. Like, that’s obviously reflective of me as a human and my value. But those good numbers can be actually harder to connect with and to own as real. And I do see that as like a lack of presence, a lack of presence. And and as I’m talking, I’m putting my hand on my chest. This is a podcast. You cannot see this, but that real embodied presence of being with. We have a hard time being with. 

 

Meg [00:17:31] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was a lot that I had learned to be with constriction and feeling like I was lacking and that there was not enough. I think that’s a feeling and an attitude and a belief that is quite pervasive, not just in the therapeutic areas, but all over the place. Right. And for a lot of very valid reasons. And it felt so unnatural for me, both professionally, even though I was well into my thirties at that point, based on where I am in my career, what makes sense? Good money. But it didn’t feel like it was actually for me or that it was real or that I was with it. And it seemed like the numbers just- I didn’t know what was happening with them for quite some time and actually some evidence of that, as well, within Felicia’s coaching container, every month she would send out a form for us to fill out. How many clients did you see? How much did you earn this month? And I avoided it. If she listens to this, she will recognize like Meg almost never sent those in. And I recognize alone that I didn’t send them in. Part of it was just like, I can’t. I can’t look at this. I can’t feel it. I don’t know what to do with this. It was at the time, almost a feeling of shame, which is a little strange. Even though I was well out of a space where I felt ashamed of how much I was making. It’s just a very interesting time. 

 

Linzy [00:19:01] Yeah. And and I’m curious, like, do you think at that time, would there have been any number that would have you would have been like, okay, now we’re here? Or was it very much about like your own headspace and where your emotions were at? 

 

Meg [00:19:16] I think it was more about the headspace and being early in my practice too. I think there was some element of still feeling like I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah. So that even feeling like a fluke, like, well, sure. And made that much this month, but like next month. No way. Yeah. Even though the next month I didn’t make quite as much, but it was still good enough. It was enough money.  So definitely a lot of the headspace there was, That’s what was going on for me.  

 

Linzy [00:19:45] And so since then, I’m curious, what has been your experience with money supporting embodiment? We just talked about like disconnection and like not being able to connect and and also chasing something, like chasing- when I hear like six-figure practice, it’s like you’re chasing this thing on paper, this intellectual thing that might not even make sense for your life or for your needs, but you’re chasing from your head, not from your body. I’m curious now, like, how has money been able to support you in embodiment? 

 

Meg [00:20:14] Well, go back to that physical health aspect. It allows me to afford these gym memberships where I find a lot of value in the work that I do there in the community that I have. Being more intimately familiar with the money that’s coming in and out every month, which I am now, and looking at it quite frequently, it helps me not hide from myself in terms of my money, and it really encourages me to be mindful about how I’m setting myself up. So last year I didn’t have a retirement account set up – well, I did, but I hadn’t started contributions for it. I hadn’t really set up a savings for myself. I was saving for tax, so I at least had that. But the rest was just kind of like, I don’t know if I can afford to use, I guess we’ll see. But in getting working with my own nervous system around money. Becoming more familiar with those numbers, becoming more comfortable with what I was charging, led me to more comfort with looking at the numbers, more comfort with committing to a monthly contribution to my retirement funds, which in an interesting way, I had this mindset of I don’t want to start that if I can’t guarantee that I can always pay that amount into my retirement account, which is like if I need to stop that for a month or two to pay other things, I can pause it and then restart it like it’s not- 

 

Linzy [00:21:39] Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

 

Meg [00:21:40] So it’s a much deeper familiarity. And that has allowed me to now have savings in my business that affords me seven weeks of paid time off. In addition, it has allowed me to joyfully participate and not, like, begrudgingly participate, in a two-week vacation for my stepson, who’s graduating from high school, and say, like, Yes, we can do that. So it’s lending itself to experience. And it also it’s given me more time to create free or lower-cost content for the people that I’m trying to help. I’m not so caught up in trying to make money that I can actually provide content to people who need it and can’t afford, you know, consultation sessions with me. 

 

Linzy [00:22:26] Yes, And that’s such an excellent point. And I think people who are listening will appreciate that piece of it is what I’m hearing is like by you being able to be with more, you’ve been able to make money work for you better, which means also you’re not just constantly chasing more. So you can actually put your time and your bandwidth towards creating those accessible things for folks to reach who may not be able to afford working with you, I would assume it could be part of that too. Yeah. Like it’s giving you- this is something I’ve been thinking about a little bit is the distinction, too, between like time and bandwidth. You know, we can buy back time and time is valuable, but even more valuable in time is bandwidth, where we’ve actually left ourselves with the energy at the end of the day to, like, enjoy life, have hobbies, have a community, and like be able to be creative, which when we’re working as hard as we can, whether it’s towards a real goal that makes sense or an arbitrary goal, somebody else’s set that doesn’t even suit us, we don’t have that left at the end of the day. 

 

Meg [00:23:24] We don’t. 

 

Linzy [00:23:25] Like it’s yeah, it’s like try to recuperate, start over the next day. 

 

Meg [00:23:28] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that was a big part of the cycle that I was caught in for quite some time, was sitting at my desk from 8:30 until 6:30 or seven, and then not having enough energy to do anything other than watch TV and eat dinner. Yes. Not. It wasn’t fun. It’s not like my whole life. No. Yes. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:23:51] And sometimes, too, I think about like, what is the life that our clients imagine us having? You know, And it’s like, that’s probably not it. Probably like, Oh, And then my therapist lies on the couch and stares blankly at the TV until she finally musters up the will to go to bed. That’s what I’m going for. And that’s why I’m working with this person. Yeah. No, it’s those expanding possibilities. And I’m curious too, Meg, like, thinking about having a more embodied relationship with money now, like, I’m hearing, first of all, money supports you in doing the stuff that takes care of your body, but also having that more embodied relationship where you can be with what emotions go with money for you, now. 

 

Meg [00:24:25] I still experience some anxiety. I’m hoping that at some point that will lessen or go away. But I’m also realistic enough to know that anxiety is normal. So that still occurs, but I think a little bit more what’s peaking out is the sense of possibility. And I don’t want to say full-on security, but a little bit more of a sense of security and knowing that I’ve made it work for myself. So far, I have not ever been in a place where I mean, I’ve had some very, very financially stressful times, but I have supports and I’m very lucky for that and privileged for that. And so recognizing the supports that I have in place, recognizing that I don’t need to be the only one in my family unit keeping an eye on this, like my spouse is in this with me, it brings a greater sense of just being able to trust that. Just a little bit more trust. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:25:20] So I’m hearing anxiety, trust. Are there – I’m going to therapist you just a little bit – are there other feelings in the mix? 

 

Meg [00:25:26] Probably. I haven’t mentioned- so a bit of excitement. There’s definitely excitement around knowing that with the money that I have earned through my consulting business, I was able to pay upfront for the tickets to go to Europe with my stepson this summer. Like that was something that was supported. And so it feels supported, exciting. It’s lending itself to opportunity and excitement, a little bit more stability and security. I’m still working on that. And there’s still mixed in just a little bit of a sense of like, I wish it didn’t have to be this way. Like part of me wishes money wasn’t a factor. But yeah, I live in a society- in reality, so. Yeah, it is. It has. 

 

Linzy [00:26:10] It is. It is. Yeah. And I just did a workshop today for the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy Association. They heard that this like, wellness event. And in it I was thinking about like, right, like money and wellness. And I had the slide where I was just like a long time ago, our society decided money would be used as a way of exchanging, you know, goods and services. I was like easing that transition. It’s like that is what it is. It’s like I do therapy or I’m, you know, I teach somebody a course and my money allows me to turn that into groceries. Yeah. Otherwise it’d be very complicated to get groceries, if I needed to rely on the person, the grocery store wanting, you know, a consultation about therapy, that wouldn’t really work. And so it’s like but it helps me zoom out a little bit, even just to be like, right, this is just a means of exchange that we’ve agreed on and therefore it’s unavoidable. But for me, it, it helped to deepen the neutrality of it a little bit more. For me too. I was just it’s just a way of treating shit, basically. Yeah. And there are ways that we can trade things directly if we happen to have something somebody wants and they have something we want, we can make a direct trade. But a lot of times there needs to be an intermediary symbol. 

 

Meg [00:27:13] Yeah. One of the things that was most helpful in neutralizing for me, I don’t quite recall where I heard this. It might have been in conversation with my husband or maybe on a podcast at some point, but the framing of things cost money. That is things cost money. That’s the reality. And so learning to sit with that, too, which can bring up frustration and uncertainty and this is unfair, shouldn’t be this way. And it currently is. So that’s what we have to work with. Yes, absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:27:44] I do want to just touch back on the emotions that you described, unlike the excitement of being able to, you know, pay for this trip upfront, you know, from the work that you’ve done. And that to me is one of the greatest wins of having an embodied relationship with money. Right. It’s like you actually get to feel the good stuff, right? Because like, theoretically, you actually had opportunity to be very excited that like second month in practice or whatever, where you made like more money than ever before, that could have been exciting if embodiment was available to you at that time, because that’s incredible. 

 

Meg [00:28:19] Right. 

 

Linzy [00:28:20] But I think when we don’t have that presence, it’s hard. You don’t get as much as the negative. That’s although it’s waiting for you, of course, later, in the form of like a headache or stomach ache. But you also do get to feel the good stuff and like the pride and excitement and accomplishment of what you’ve done with your energy and your gifts. 

 

Meg [00:28:38] And I would agree, I enjoy the fact that I can enjoy it more now than I did before. And that I’m able to take the good with the bad and the neutral and apply that money to things that I want and need. That’s a big thing when I talk about my coaching clients with, say, when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning? Absolutely. 

 

Linzy [00:29:12] Yeah. Like, let’s go for more than living and getting by. 

 

Meg [00:29:15] Yeah. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:29:19] So, Meg, can you tell folks a little bit more about the work that you do? 

 

Meg [00:29:23] Yeah. So in my private practice, I have an all-telehealth private practice in Indiana, where I specialize in – surprise, surprise – burnout for mental health therapists. And I also do EMDR work and nontraditional relationship structures. So polyamory, things like that. And then I have a consulting business consulting and coaching where I work with other therapists who are starting a practice and looking for support. So doing what I do, trying to get support right out of the gate to make that first year as good as possible. Also, working with folks who’ve been in practice for a while and just want to up little things for themselves. And as part of that consultation business, I don’t have a date set yet, but one thing I did this spring was a group coaching experience for therapists who are leaving the therapy field, which was actually a very wonderful space and I was really glad to be able to facilitate that. So that will likely be coming up again in the fall of 2023. And in addition to that, I’ve got the @antiworktherapist Instagram page, which is kind of where a lot of this started. It sort of built out of the podcast that I had in 2021, whenever that was. And that’s basically an advocacy page for therapists talking about, I guess, work-life balance practitioner-first policies, making this work work for you and a lot of things of that sort. Great. 

 

Linzy [00:30:54] So if folks want to learn more about you and maybe work with you, there’s the @antiworktherapist Instagram. Is that the best place for them to follow you or are there other places they should also check you out? 

 

Meg [00:31:04] Yeah. So @antiworktherapist is great. You can also find me at informercoaching.com. So on Instagram, it’s just @informercoaching. That is where you find more of the coaching and consulting content and my website and information is on there if you want to schedule a consultation. 

 

Linzy [00:31:20] So thank you for coming on the podcast today. 

 

Meg [00:31:22] Of course. Thanks for having me. This is great. 

 

Linzy [00:31:38] This conversation with Meg today has me thinking a little bit about how some of the struggles that therapists have with money, whether it’s avoiding money or overspending, have to do with a lack of embodiment around money, right? Of not really being able to be with or sometimes not being able to tolerate, you know, the feelings that we have with money. And so we take fast action. We use money as a way to try to get away from the feelings that we’re having in our body, like feeling inadequate. Feel like you’re not a good therapist. You see this clinical training come up and you’re like, That’ll make me a better therapist. That’ll make my microservices worth the money to my clients. And you split second by something to try to make the feeling in your body go away rather than being able to be with it and notice it and name it for what it is. And you know, I loved Meg’s points about having an embodied relationship with money and how that looks different now and being able to start to connect with pride. Well, she talked more about excitement. I was thinking about pride as well. That is something that I’ve noticed with many of the therapists who’ve gone through many skills for therapists is they get excited, right? So rather than when you work through money and you learn how to use it and have a relationship with it, then you can actually feel excitement and pride and empowerment and expansiveness around money. But we can’t access those things if we’re cut off from our body and if we’re not able to really be with what’s happening, we don’t get the good if we cut off the bad, which of course the therapist we know. But it applies to money just like it applies to everything else. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find us at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please take a minute to jump over and review it on Apple podcast. It is the best way for therapists to find us and be part of this conversation. Thanks for listening today. 

[00:00:02] It is a lot of work to run a group. Like, a lot of work. There’s so many moving parts between all the admin that has to get done, managing other therapists and practitioners with their various personalities and their needs, insurance money not showing up, grumpy clients complaining to you about the services that they’re getting, clinical notes not getting done. Sometimes it can feel like you’re working harder than ever, and it’s definitely not the passive income that you dreamt about when you started your practice. 

 

Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. 

 

Hello and welcome to our special mini podcast, Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. This podcast is appearing in my normal Money Skills For Therapists podcast feed, as you probably noticed, but the next few episodes that are coming out are going to be focusing on group practice only. Group practice owners, these next couple episodes are for you. We all know that solo practice finances can be emotionally daunting. I mean, I built Money Skills For Therapists on that premise, and hundreds of therapists coming through the course and accessing our support have definitely proven that point over and over again. But there’s a reason that group practice is even more difficult. 

 

Today we’re going to talk about why group practice feels so much harder than solo practice. First of all, let’s start with what it’s like to be a group practice owner from the dozens of group practice owners that I’ve talked to while I was putting together this course. I know that you love being a group practice owner some days. When group practice is good, we all know that it’s really, really good. You got to build something bigger than yourself. You can see it meeting the needs of your community, filling a gap in what’s available in your community. By having folks working for you, they’re offering specialized services that otherwise just wouldn’t be available in the way that you folks are providing them. You get to make a bigger impact than you ever could by yourself. You get to feel proud when you think about all of the lives that are impacted every week by your team, which is way more people than you can reach on your own. You get to enjoy the community that you built. You don’t have to work alone anymore. You get to mentor other therapists and practitioners. You get to have a team who share your vision and your values. And generally, you just have colleagues so that you’re not working alone anymore. That isolation that is such a hard part of solo practice goes away in a certain sense when you have a group practice. Now you actually have people that you’re working with all the time. You also get to wear different hats. You get variety. You get to be a leader, a mentor. You get to be an administrator if you want to. You can also hire that out, of course. And you don’t have to be a full-time therapist anymore. You get to use diverse talents and enjoy that variety. Plus, you don’t have to rely on seeing clients to get paid, which can get really tiresome. You have built something bigger than a 1 to 1 business by building your group practice, and you get to see the fruits of your labor and feel pride in all of that. 

 

But we also know that when it’s bad, it’s bad. Some days, I know many, many, many group practice owners are unsure if they made the right decision by starting a group practice. It’s heavy, carrying the weight of not just paying your own paycheck, which can sometimes be stressful enough in solo practice, but having to pay a whole team. You might worry about money a lot. You might hold your breath when you go to run payroll. Kind of that white-knuckled experience of being unsure if the money’s going to be there. It is a lot of work to run a group. Like, a lot of work. There’s so many moving parts between all the admin that has to get done, managing other therapists and practitioners with their various personalities and their needs, having to chase people and put out fires like insurance money not showing up, grumpy clients complaining to you about, you know, the services that they’re getting, clinical notes not getting done. Sometimes it can feel like you’re working harder than ever, and it’s definitely not the passive income that you dreamt about when you started your group practice. 

 

A note about passive income in general. That’s a term that I wish that we would just kind of cancel. If we could just take a vote on that and get rid of that term. But we do know that group practice is scalable. And when we build something bigger than ourselves, we imagine it getting easier. And yet group practice can actually end up feeling a lot harder than solo practice. Also, and I’ve heard this over and over and over again, the revolving door of employees is exhausting. I’ve seen this with my own group-practice-owning friends, when they have a therapist leave, but it can really feel like just when everything is going well, when everything’s coming together, you have a cohesive team, the money is working, you get a resignation letter or two and your stomach just drops. Thinking about that big hit to your revenue, all the resources that you spent on these therapists going down the drain, all of the time and energy it’s going to take to find and train someone new, not to mention actually filling their caseload after that. It’s also hard to take an actual break and set boundaries around your work. Sometimes your practice and your personal life can feel all bound up together. You think about your business all the time. You find yourself working evenings and weekends. You can’t imagine being able to take a vacation and really walk away from it because you know that something would come up and you’d have to jump back into your group. Your business is deeply part of you and that can be lovely. But also sometimes it’s a bit much. And finally, to top it all off – and on your worst days, this can really feel like insult to injury for all of this work you’re doing – you are definitely not being paid like a boss or CEO. You might still be relying on your own client income in order to be paid well, or you might be getting paid last and making even less money than you used to make when you worked full-time in client-facing work. 

 

Either way, when you think about all the work you do and the hours you put in, you shudder to think of how much you’re being paid an hour to run your group practice. These are numbers you’d rather not know. And I will say I’ve met several group practice owners where the answer to that is actually zero. They’re not being paid at all. So they’re being paid from the client income that they’re generating, but they’re not actually getting paid for all of that other work that we just talked about. Basically, they’re doing that in a volunteer role functionally, and the ups and downs of group practice, like those days that you feel good and proud and everything’s amazing, and then the resignation letter and the type money and the like, exhaustion. They can just come one after another. The good moments and the good days can be immediately followed by something bad happening. 

 

Your practice can often feel like an emotional and financial rollercoaster, which is not at all what you were going for when you set out building it. So I think many of us can agree, but maybe not all of us, that roller coasters are fun for an afternoon once or twice a year, but they’re not for your business and livelihood. I personally enjoy centrifugal force rides, which is a bit of a controversial opinion. The rides that spin you and, you know, like use the force. So flying saucers were on the outside, spinning cups, that kind of thing. And that is fun for a little bit, but I definitely wouldn’t want to do that for more than like 2 hours once a year. Rather than a roller coaster, what you’re looking for in your group practice, would be more like a luxury train car – if we want to keep going with the vehicle metaphors – a train car rolling steadily along the tracks, confidently headed to all the right places at the right pace, and also with a nice dining car and fancy drinks and snacks. Obviously, I know that you want to feel a sense of stability and safety in your group practice, knowing that the money’s going to be there. You want to feel proud of running a group that really reflects your values, takes care of your team members, and has a positive lasting impact on your community. You want to feel less like you’re playing a game of whack-a-mole all the time. Moving from one crisis to the next, and more like you’re competently steering your group practice ship. Weathering the natural ebbs and flows of business, including therapist resignations, with confidence and with ease. You want to be the empowered CEO of your group practice with a confidence and the paycheck to reflect the leadership and the vision that you’re bringing to the table every day. 

 

This practice was born out of your brilliance and your vision, and I want you to really connect with that. This wouldn’t be here if not for you dreaming it and making it happen. And you want to enjoy that rather than dipping in and out of owner’s remorse. And you can have all of this by strategically setting up your group practice finances so that your practice is healthy and sustainable and allows you and your team to thrive. When you started a group practice, you stepped into a higher level of business complexity than you had when you were a solo practitioner. There are so many moving parts that will make or break the financial health of your group practice. But so often, those decisions that you make on the fly while you’re building your group are the key elements that are determining if your practice finances work or if they don’t. I like to think of a group practice like a machine, and it’s one that you’ve built, but you might not have realized all the different parts and how they worked when you were building it. All the moving parts of group practice come together to shape the end results. How much money will be there at the end of the month, how much you and your team can get paid, whether you can afford employee benefits to take care of and retain your team, whether you can save up for your group practice, visions, and dreams. 

 

You’ve built your practice in a certain way and it’s going to give you certain financial results because of that. Things like the fees you set for your therapists’ sessions, your income splits or wages that you’ve set up with them, the operating expenses that you’ve taken on, your admin team wages, your client policies and how well they’re enforced, your training policies, the benefits that you offer. All of these things come together to create financial results. And if you’re like most group practice owners, you don’t fully understand that machine yet or how to fix it to make it give you the results that you want. In fact, if you set your machine up wrong, no matter how many clients your therapists see, you will never have the financial stability that you’re looking for. Which I know is like ugh. 

 

This is why, despite what we tend to think – and the solution that good practice owners tend to go for when they’re thinking about this problem – hiring more therapists is not the solution. It’s easy to just think – and I’ve seen group practice owners do this time and time again – I’ll just hire a couple more therapists and then everything’s going to be okay. And it might be true in your case. But also, unless you know that you’ve set your numbers up so your practice is actually designed to work and designed to be profitable for you and have money going to all the right places, then you’re actually just guessing at what the solution is. It’s our tendency, and we’ve talked about this many times on the Money Skills for Therapy podcast. It’s our tendency to always think that more is better. But having taught finances to hundreds of therapists, now I can tell you that more is more, but when we don’t have our businesses set up properly, more money coming in the door doesn’t mean it’s going to stick around or do what you need it to do for you. You need to fix your machine for that to happen. 

 

The good news is your machine is totally fixable and you can learn how to make it into a financially stable practice that pays you well, that practice that you were dreaming of when you started out. And I would love to help you do that. Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is about taking you from feeling like an overworked, stressed, underpaid group practice owner to being the confident and empowered financial leader of your group practice. 

 

The application window is open right now for Money Skills for Group Practice Owners for our January 2024 cohort. If you are hearing this, it means that this is your chance to apply to join me in January to work together for six months to help you become the empowered financial leader of your group practice. Click on the link in the show notes to learn more and to apply today.  

 

Thanks for listening today. 

[00:00:07] Again, these are numbers that sometimes we might want to avoid because it’s like, Ooh, that sounds like a number I don’t want to know. But if you’re looking at finding your ideal numbers and making things better, you need to understand what is happening now. 

 

Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. 

 

Hello and welcome back to our special mini podcast, Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is a six month course that’s all about helping group practice owners become the empowered financial leaders of their practice. And today’s podcast episode, and the next one that’s going to come out as well, are completely focused on group practice. So you’re welcome to listen in, if that’s not you there’s still lots of things here that are going to be relevant for solo practice, but we are really going to be getting into that next level of complexity for group practice that is part of running group practice and what can make group practice so much more challenging than solo practice. 

 

So last time we talked about the idea of your group practice as a machine. That idea that your group practice is a machine with all these different parts and components and you might not have thought about that as you were building it. Often the decisions that we make on the fly as we’re building things, it’s like somebody comes in and they ask for a certain fee split and you’re like, I don’t know, that sounds good. Ends up becoming your default fee split. And there’s a part of your machine that you’ve just built without necessarily intentionally making it a certain way. Now, one part of your machine is in place, and there are many, many parts like that, that come together to give you certain financial results from your group practice. If you have built your group practice machine wrong, no matter how many clients your practitioners see, you’re never going to see the financial sustainability that you’re looking for. 

 

So today I want to talk about finding your ideal numbers for your group practice. Every group practice has its own set of ideal numbers, and those ideal numbers are not just about like what’s going to make the most money. That’s not the purpose of business. I want to say that maybe that’s the purpose of business in a very like capitalistic view, but I don’t think that’s why you’re in group practice. I know that’s certainly not why I’m in business. The purpose of business is to help you to generate money from doing what you love in a way that aligns with your needs and your values. And that is this beautiful opportunity that you have with your practice by figuring out your ideal numbers and how to hit all the right sweet spots. So group practice leadership is actually a role that you want to stay in long term, not something that you’re waiting to get out of as soon as possible, waiting to sell your group practice. So let’s talk about what figuring out those ideal numbers for your group practice actually looks like. 

 

The first thing that you need to do is understand the current state of your numbers. We need to start where you are. How much does it cost to run your group practice? Getting into your numbers and deeply understanding what’s happening in your group practice is so important and it can be a step that people want to skip. When I’ve worked one on one with folks, this is like really the step that I start at if I can see that they don’t know their numbers. The first thing you need to do is really get acquainted with these numbers and understand how are things working now. That’s really going to help you start to see what is not working. So how much does it cost to run your group practice would be one piece. How much are you paying in overhead? How much is your rent? How much is your admin team? How much are you paying your practitioners? How much does each employee cost you? Not just in terms of those wages that you’re paying to the folks, your income-generating folks, the therapists who are working with you, or health practitioners, but also in terms of the benefits that you pay for them, the trainings that you offer to them through their work with you, how much is each employee costing you and how much they’re making you is that second really important part of the puzzle. Sometimes that number can be really surprising for folks, and sometimes that number immediately shows you why it might feel like your machine is broken and your group practice is not working is how those numbers are shaking out of what folks are bringing in the door and then what it’s costing you to employ them and manage them and take care of them. 

 

The next piece – and this is one that a lot of group practice owners want to skip and ignore – is how much are you getting paid for your leadership work? With this, I am not talking about your clinical time. I’m not talking about the clients that you’re still seeing and that revenue that it’s bringing in and that part of your paycheck. But I’m talking about how much you’re getting paid for the time you spend managing your staff, hiring and training them, setting a marketing strategy for your practice, networking and promoting your practice in your community, making big picture decisions about your business. I’m talking about your leadership. How much are you being paid for that time that you spend doing leadership work? Sometimes the answer to this is $0 or very, very little. Sometimes you might do the math on this and realize you’re getting paid $10 an hour or $50 an hour. And that’s really helpful information. Again, these are numbers that sometimes we might want to avoid because it’s like, ooh, that sounds like a number I don’t want to know. But if you’re looking at finding your ideal numbers and making things better, you need to understand what is happening now. 

 

Finally, how much do you need to be setting aside for taxes? You can look at, you know, your taxes you paid for the last few years. Understand what is the obligation, that tax obligation that your business has and make sure that you understand that number as another part of your responsibilities. So those pieces, again, were: how much is it costing you to run your practice in terms of operating expenses? How much employees are costing you and how much are they bringing in? How much are you getting paid for your leadership work? And how much needs to be set aside for taxes? All of these pieces come together to create your financial picture and determine how much money is in those bank accounts and whether things feel spacious or whether things feel tight. Then once you understand where you are and some of those financial obligations that you have and the way that things are currently set up, because you can’t just snap your fingers and change your practice overnight, right? 

 

We need to understand where you are. Once you’re grounded in that, then you can start to move into understanding what’s possible and how you want things to be. Start to set a vision for where you want your group practice to go financially. Part of that is thinking about how much of your time is going into running the group practice and what your time is worth. What do you want to actually be paid for that leadership work? What is your salary or wage when it comes to being the leader of your group practice, not just a clinician working within it. But if you’re spending 10 hours a week running the group and then another 15 hours seeing your own clients and taking care of your own clinical work, how much are you going to be paid for that? Ten or probably it’s more like 15 or 20 hours a week that you’re doing of that work. What is that portion of your pay need to be? And that leads into your leadership paycheck, right? What is the paycheck that you need to be seeing coming home between that leadership work that you’re doing – and if you’re still seeing clients, part of that paycheck will also be your client paycheck – what do you need to be paid ultimately to make this worth it for you? 

 

I’ve heard from so many group practice owners that say that they’re actually getting paid less now than they did as a solo practitioner. That can be an okay place to be if you’re like in an investment stage and you’re going somewhere and there’s a vision, but that is not a good place to live. Right. We don’t want you to basically be exploiting yourself for the work that you’re doing, leading other folks by having you get paid way less than you would get paid to see a client yourself or to do some other kind of work. Next, you want to think about how much money needs to be left over at the end of the month to allow you to build buffers. Right. We don’t want money to just go down to zero every month and start over. Part of building a sustainable business – and this applies to all types of business – is having extra money that builds up. Having those buffers so that if you have a down month, if some of your clinicians have to go on leave like maternity leave or sick leave or caregiver leave, there’s still money in the bank accounts to pay everything, right? You’re not going to be in trouble if suddenly sessions drop for a couple of weeks. And with many businesses, the reality is that is where they are. They’re at a place where if they didn’t make sales for a couple of weeks, they would be done. They’d have to close their doors. And we don’t want you to be there. Right. So part of it is starting to set your goals. 

 

When you’re looking at those ideal numbers, what are the buffers you want to see in all those different bank accounts? How much money do you want to see in that payroll bank account so that you don’t have to like white knuckle it every time you run payroll? How much money do you want to see in your operating expenses? And there are guidelines for this, but it’s also personal. Again, we’re talking about your needs and your values. What are the amounts in those accounts that could be serving you really well, giving you that financial stability that most group practices do not have right now? Finally, what are your hopes and your dreams for your practice? Where do you want to go with it? Are there other things that could be requiring money that your practice should be saving for every month? Things like maybe buying a professional suite or being able to offer retreats and having money that you can put down to deposit for, you know, a retreat space to do these retreats that you’ve been dreaming of doing. Those are the things that can really feel exciting and expansive. And I know most entrepreneurs that I know – most group practice owners and many, many solo practitioners, too, you know – we don’t want to get bored. We like to do different stuff. Right. And so what is that Dream Fund look like for you and your group practice? That is money that can be put aside to move towards new and exciting and expansive things beyond what your group practice looks like today. 

 

Once you have point A, which is where you are, and point B, which is where you want to be, all of the things we just talked about in terms of your ideal paycheck, those buffers that money to be scared of in the business, then you can work with your numbers and see what needs to happen to get where you want to go. Using a cash flow projection tool can be a great way to do this, and we have a beautiful one that we’ve built that we use for this in our own business and that we use in next level work, like Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. This is going to be included. You can start to play and be curious about your numbers to see what changes, even gradual or small changes can be made to get you where you want to go. You can play with the number of clinicians that you have on staff and how many clients they see. Would you have more part time clinicians? Would you have full time clinicians? How many sessions at a minimum are you going to require as an employer? And this is also a space where you have the opportunity to be a great employer by setting an expectation for your team that’s reasonable and sustainable for them as practitioners, rather than trying to squeeze as much money out of them as you can. And this is something that I see in group practices that are not in alignment and that don’t have financial health, is they can exploit their employees. And I don’t think that’s who you want to be. I don’t think you want to be a group practice owner that’s trying to squeeze as much money out of your clinicians as you can before they burn out and leave. 

 

You have an opportunity when you really have control over your numbers, to set sustainable expectations that make people want to stay with you. So seize that opportunity. You’re also going to want to be curious about the fees that your clinicians are charging. Are they insurance based? Is there maybe an insurance company that you realize you prefer working with and that pays better and you can get off the other panels? Or do you look at switching your clinicians to be out-of-pocket and then get really curious about what their fees could be and what that could do for overall numbers, how that can get you to those ideal numbers you want to see. 

 

Policies are another piece you can be curious about if you actually started having your clinicians enforce the policies that you already have in place. And often that’s the first step. What would that do to your numbers? Or do you start charging cancellation fees because you’re not doing that at this time. And with a tool when you have different cancellation fee numbers, you can see like, okay, well, what if we charged half the cancellation fee? What would that do to our numbers? What if we had a 48-hour cancellation policy and we charge the full fee because that’s appropriate for the folks that we work with? What would that do financially? Those are all places that you can play with and that will have impact ultimately on how your machine works. 

 

You can look at your operating expenses. Is there something that you can cut? Are there places you could do things differently? Are there investments now or things that you’re paying for by default that you could cancel for now? Or things that you were planning on buying next month that you could defer till later until your numbers really support them? You can think about other offers, too. And this is something we also have built into our cash flow projection tool. Playing with questions of like, what if your clinician started running a group? What if you had workshops and what is that money coming in the door do to your overall picture? And how close does it get you to your ideal numbers? All of these things together give you the ultimate financial results of your practice on the tool. We have all of the these factors at the top: fees and number of clinicians and how many people they see and your operating expenses. This all goes into the top end, and at the bottom you see the financial results. 

 

How much money ends up being left there at the end of the month? How much money is building up for tax payments? Is that going to meet your tax obligations? How much money is available for your paycheck? Is that getting you to that ideal leadership paycheck that you need to make this work worthwhile? Are there leftover operating expense money so you can see buffers building up? Is it hitting the goals that you want to see in your buffers? Being able to play with your numbers and put them all together and be curious about them lets you really see and understand how your group practice machine works and what is possible. I love doing this work with group practice owners because it lays bare the workings of that machine. Once you can see it all come together, you can find those sustainable numbers and understand exactly what needs to happen to make your practice work. 

 

Would you like my support in making your practice sustainable, paying you and your team well for the work that you do? Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is about taking you from feeling like an overworked, stressed, and underpaid group practice owner to being the confident and empowered financial leader of your group practice. 

 

The application window is open right now for Money Skills for Group Practice Owners for our January 2024 cohort. If you are hearing this, it means that this is your chance to apply to join me in January to work together for six months to help you become the empowered financial leader of your group practice. Click on the link in the show notes to learn more and to apply today. 

 

Thanks for listening today. 

[00:00:01] When you started your group practice, you did so with a vision. Maybe you seized an opportunity without planning to by saying yes to someone who wanted to intern or work for you. Maybe you’ve always known, though, you wanted to have a group practice and you couldn’t wait to start building out your team and moving into that leadership role. Either way, you are the leader of your group practice and no one else can replace you in that role. This is also true when it comes to your financial leadership. 

 

Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. 

 

Hello and welcome back to our special mini podcast, Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. Today I’m going to talk about financial leadership in your group practice. I want to start this episode with a really simple idea. You can delegate tasks, but you can’t delegate out your leadership. When you started your group practice, you did so with a vision. Maybe you seized an opportunity without planning to by saying yes to someone who wanted to intern or work for you. Maybe you’ve always known, though, you wanted to have a group practice and you couldn’t wait to start building out your team and moving into that leadership role. Either way, you are the leader of your group practice and no one else can replace you in that role. This is also true when it comes to your financial leadership. 

 

I know that money is probably not your favorite part of your group practice. A love of finances is usually not why we go into school to become therapists. I see so many group practice owners happily digging into mentoring their employees or trying their hand at marketing and networking, but wanting to pretty much ignore the financial side, thinking that if they make those other things work, then the money is going to work itself out. But the bad news is, it won’t. So what many therapists do is hire a full service bookkeeper or an accounting service. And then they feel like they did what they were supposed to do. The finances are taken care of. But that is also not true. 

 

Going back to my first point, you can delegate tasks, but you can’t delegate out your leadership. And this is what I see happens when we try to think of bookkeeping as a substitute for us stepping up and learning money. You get all sorts of reports from your bookkeeper each month, and maybe they even explain them to you sometimes, but you still have no idea what they mean. Sure, all the information is in one place now. That is a good thing. The task of bookkeeping is done. But you’re still as confused and disempowered as ever about your group practice finances. 

 

I know several successful business owners, including group practice owners, who, despite having built large businesses, feel like a total hot mess financially. They have bookkeepers and accountants who give them reports, but without having the knowledge and the confidence to understand what they’re seeing and to do something with the information in front of them, they can’t really make money work for them. They can’t even connect with their own success. Because when you look at the numbers, the numbers are meaningless to them. Are these good numbers? Is there money here to hire someone? Am I paying myself too much? Am I paying myself too little? This is why I don’t believe that group practice owners just need to be the CEOs of the group practices. They need to be the CFOs. What is a CFO? The CFO is a Chief Financial Officer. That’s the person who looks at the numbers deeply, understands the information in front of them, and can make strategic moves needed to reach their business goals. 

 

So what are those goals for you? Is it buffers in all of your bank accounts? So you don’t need to hold your breath when you run payroll? Is it finally being paid well? Is it having the big picture perspective on your numbers that means you don’t privately burst into tears after one of your best clinicians gives notice because you know that financially things are actually going to be okay? Those things are all possible when you build your CFO skills and confidently step into the financial leadership role that is already yours, but that you may not be fully claiming yet. So what does real financial leadership look like in group practice? It looks like many things, and that includes being able to read financial statements and understand exactly what they mean. Because we still want you to delegate tasks, and bookkeeping is a task. 

 

So I’m all for therapists trying their hand at bookkeeping to start and in Money Skills For Therapists, which focuses on solo practice. That’s very, very important. So I want you to have some knowledge of how to do bookkeeping. But as the group practice leader, quickly that’s going to be a task that you delegate to somebody else, even internally. But you need to be the one who can make meaning out of the numbers, even if you’re not doing the task of putting the numbers together. You’re the one who looks at it and understands what it is telling you. That is part of what looking like a CFO looks like. It also looks like running your practice with a vision and a plan because you know where you’re going and why. You know how many therapists you ultimately want to have on your team. You know what their fees are going to be. You know the wages or the fee split that you’re going to have with them. You know how many clients you want them to be seeing each week. You know what your monthly overhead is going to look like. And you know what you can start spending money on when you hit different milestones. 

 

When you have that perspective of where you’re going, you understand, okay, when I get to this point, I’m going to give myself this raise. When I get to this point, we’re going to be able to have that second office location that we want. You can actually see where you’re going and what can happen when you hit those different points. It looks like having buffers in all the right places so you can weather the natural ups and downs of business without worrying about running out of money. And this is really, really important. And it’s a step that a lot of people like to skip, but that is part of being the CFO is having those beautiful buffers to alleviate your anxiety. It looks like having a good regular CEO and CFO paycheck, so you’re paid well for the work that you do and know that you can keep receiving that paycheck even if client sessions are down for a couple of weeks or during the summer or during the winter holidays, because you’ve set up money to make sure that that paycheck keeps coming. It means having the ability to zoom out and see the big picture in your business so you don’t get stuck in the weeds with your numbers. 

 

You understand what numbers are important. You understand how to put them in perspective, and you don’t get caught up in the little decisions or the little details anymore. All of this together will give you a sense of safety and stability. It will let you feel proud of running a group that really reflects your values. You’re going to feel less like you’re playing a game of whack a mole and more like the empowered CEO and CFO, that financial leader of your group practice, with a confidence and a paycheck to reflect the leadership and vision you bring to the table every day. This practice was born out of your brilliance and your vision, and you want to enjoy it rather than dipping in and out of owner’s remorse, wondering if you made a huge mistake. 

 

You could forevermore pay a full service accounting firm 600 to 800 bucks a month, which is 7200 or 9600 a year, or a fractional CFO for those of you with bigger practices, fractional CFOs, people who can come in and try to bring this financial expertise to you, charge 3000 to $5000 a month. Seriously. And even with that, you can still feel confused and disempowered about your group practice finances. Or you can join me in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners and do the work that’s going to allow you to deeply understand your numbers. So when your just-does-your-books bookkeeper or team member shows you a report, you know exactly what you’re looking at, what the numbers are telling you, and what strategic actions need to happen to keep you on track with your financial and your practice goals. It’s your business and your vision. 

 

No one can steer the ship better than you can. So it’s time to learn the skills to step confidently into your CFO role and lead your practice with intention and clarity. Would you like my support in confidently owning your financial leadership role? The Money Skills for Group Practice Owners course is about taking you from feeling like an overworked, stressed, and underpaid group practice owner to being the confident and empowered financial leader of your group practice. You can click on the links in the show notes to learn more or to book a discovery call with me to chat about whether the course is right for you. I’d love to connect with you about it. 

 

The application window is open right now for Money Skills for Group Practice Owners for our January 2024 cohort. If you are hearing this, it means that this is your chance to apply to join me in January to work together for six months to help you become the empowered financial leader of your group practice. Click on the link in the show notes to learn more and to apply today.  

 

Thanks for listening today.

Tiffany [00:00:04] It’s not just about raising your fees and earning more money. It’s about showing up as a different human in the world, a different clinician, but also a different mom, a different spouse, a different friend, a different son or daughter. You have to be different to do this work. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have our final episode of Season five. That time has come and I’m really excited that my guest for today is Tiffany McLain. You may know Tiffany as a clinical strategist for therapists in private practice. Her mantra is “Full fees are the new black”. Through her program, Lean In Make Bank Academy, she helps therapists ethically earn significantly more per month while seeing fewer clients and doing better clinical work. Tiffany I think of her as the the fee person in our space, like she really owns this space and she’s been teaching Lean In Make Bank since 2016? 17? Is back when I first connected with her. Today, Tiffany and I get into why fees and money can be such a conflicted kind of a sometimes a tortured area for therapists, something that can be really hard for us to talk about. We talk about people literally fighting on her ads and arguing and winning each other over on her Facebook ads. If you see her Facebook ads go by, you can click on the comments, it’s the most dramatic comment section I’ve seen on Facebook ads in our space, in like the therapy health practitioner space. And I think the reason of that is fees are just such a loaded, loaded topic and people, you know, get so entrenched in to our beliefs about fees and what is fair and what is ethical and what is right and like what the role of therapy supposed to be. You know, folks have a lot to say. And I think, you know, Tiffany and I get in to today where a lot of that messaging has come from for us, we talk about being helpers and how that contributes to our role. And we also actually get into the topic of staying small, having folks in our life wanting us to be small, but also how sometimes maybe we can be invested in our clients staying small when we don’t do our own work around setting boundaries. Really enjoyable conversation with Tiffany. I always love talking with her. Here is Tiffany McLain. So, Tiffany, welcome back to the podcast. 

Tiffany [00:03:14] Thank you. I am happy to be here. And folks who are listening, Linzy and I talk all the time. So this is going to be like, kind of podcast, kind of Linzy and I talking all the time. 

Linzy [00:03:23] But we did just like stop talking. We were like, okay, we okay, well you have to like, do the thing. So this is this is not a conversation about our children. This is not a conversation about interior decorating. We’re going to talk about money. Okay. 

Tiffany [00:03:35] Good. I’m ready. 

Linzy [00:03:36] So, Tiffany, as I just mentioned, no pressure, but this is our season ender. Season closer. For whatever season I’m on. I think it’s season five now. And so I’m really excited to have you here and have you back because you are on season one and it’s been a minute. 

Tiffany [00:03:48] I can’t believe it was so long ago that I was here. 

Linzy [00:03:51] The seasons are pretty short. 

Tiffany [00:03:53] This is good, consistent work. Way to go on your podcast. 

Linzy [00:03:56] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s actually I’m loving it. I’m loving it. I should have done this years ago. So Tiffany, folks probably know who you are, but do you want to, like, tell them a little bit, if they haven’t heard from you or heard of you somehow, what would be your like your quick intro? Who’s Tiffany McLain? What do you do? Who are you? 

Tiffany [00:04:13] Holy mackerel. I help therapists ethically raise their fees so they can have more money while seeing fewer clients and doing better clinical work. This is controversial. Therapist, if you’re listening, you might be freaking out, but that’s what I do. I really advocate on behalf of the therapists, while you therapists and clinicians are advocating on behalf of your client. That’s my job. 

Linzy [00:04:36] Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. And I will say you might have seen Tiffany’s ads go by because I feel like your your ads are everywhere. We were just talking about your ads. Christelle, my operations manager, actually, she’s come up with a very bold International Women’s Day. And I was like, This is really bold. She was like, Well, I was looking at what Tiffany does, and I was like, Well, Tiffany is Tiffany. You’ve got some really great ads out there. So folks have probably seen those go by. And always interesting discussion on your ads, too. I feel like you have ads where people fight on your ads. 

Tiffany [00:05:05] People really fight and people attack each other, they attack my appearance, but also therapists come on and advocate for each other, too. There are really thoughtful conversations, even transformations happening in the comments of the ads, which I have never seen before in other people’s ads. So I feel really excited, and proud of that. 

Linzy [00:05:24] So so with this, like, what do you think that’s about? Like, what is it about this topic that is so, I mean, specifically around fees, because like I also I teach – we’re both in the money space – but I’m teaching like skills and mindset and like but you are talking directly about fees and there’s something that is so- can be so activating about that for people. What do you think this is about? Why is this so loaded for us? 

Tiffany [00:05:49] I have spent, as you know, a lot of time thinking about this. And over the years I have found that there are three factors that contribute to it being so hard for us therapists to charge fees or look at fees or even talk about the exchange of money between us and our clients. There was actually a psychologist, her name was Ella Lasky back in the 1980s, and she did a survey of psychoanalysts actually, and she was looking at this difficulty with money. And one of the things she found, especially for women and I would also say people of color or people from marginalized communities. But all therapists, regardless of that, number one, serve as the helper, the role of helper in their family of origin. She found that they are more likely than their siblings to have been the one to mediate arguments. We are highly attuned to what was happening with the other family members and make sure that everybody was being taken care of, often to the neglect of their own emotional needs, wants, and desires. So if you’re a therapist, that was likely the role you served. You’re nodding, Linzy, Is this familiar to you in your business? 

Linzy [00:06:52] Absolutely, yes. I think most therapists were therapists long before we actually became trained and licensed. That’s right. That’s that’s the role that we often played, you know, in some capacity, like whether it’s peacemaker or attuner or, you know, we already had that read on everybody’s emotions and we’re making sure that everybody was okay long before we actually went into the field. 

Tiffany [00:07:14] That, okay, so then we take that right now and then we go into a wider society again, back to especially if you’re from a marginalized background, but even if you’re from a working class background for generations. So first in your family of origin, you’re the helper who’s putting aside her needs for other people. Then you go into a wider society that’s telling you you don’t actually deserve to make as much money as that person over there, Right? Like the quintessential person who is allowed to make money in our society is not going to likely be you, who’s ever listening to this podcast. And so we’re told that we need to be giving back first, making sure everything is- everybody’s taking care of, making sure that we’re helping our community, being accessible. Society is telling us then that we need to be putting our needs second again and making sure everyone else is taken care of so we get it in our family of origin. Then it’s reinforced by a wider society. And then of course we go into the field of psychology or social work. Yeah, well then it’s the echo chamber reinforcing these very same ideas. So again, you’ll hear from professors or colleagues, supervisors, things like, I didn’t enter this field to make money. Your job is to be accessible. It’s unethical to be charging fees that so that some people in the world can’t afford you. So you get in your family of origin, larger society, and then you go to the field of psychology where it’s just battered at you. And so, of course it’s hard! Therapists come out of this condition to not want to think about money and not want to talk about money. Not not even allowed to have the desire for money. And then they say, Now do I say charge premium fees at all? 

Linzy [00:08:43] Yeah. So there’s like three layers of conditioning right there. You know, family origin, societal position, and then the actual field itself. That just weighs down on us. 

Tiffany [00:08:58] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:08:59] Right. Yes. Yeah, that absolutely resonates with me. As you were talking, I was like, I have definitely talked about all these things. So I think you and I like we are we’re preaching from the same songbook, you know, for people who are listening. Then it’s like if they’ve gotten past the point of, you know, because we’re talking with this hurdle of being able to even say, I need money, I want money, like, I want to be okay. When people have started to do some of that work and they’re starting to think about like, okay, maybe my fee does need to be different than what it is. Often I think people know when it’s not working right, and that’s what I see in money skills so often. It’s like it’s like if you are having a hard time paying your bills at home, there’s no savings for the future. We often know that pain point of like, it’s not working, right? So when we’re starting to think about how to make it work and we’re starting to think about a fee, how do we actually figure out what a fair fee even is, trying to balance our values and our needs? 

Tiffany [00:09:54] Yeah, I love that. So I love also that you highlighted this pain point. So therapists, I spoke a few weeks ago with a social media manager who works with therapists who’s not in the field, and she was telling me about what she did and she said- What did she say- I said, I asked her, why did you choose to work with therapists, given that this is not you know, you’re not a therapist? And she said something like, All the reasons she loved working with therapists, but then she said therapists something like They take more than any other professional I’ve ever met. They just put up they put up with more. And I was like, Oh, what do you mean? And she’s like, The therapist will just scrimp and save and take. They’ll take so much shit. Folks, before they realize like, Oh, maybe something needs to change now. Opened my eyes because I’m a therapist and I know that. But then again, to hear it from an outside professional was like, Wow, that’s right. And so I love, Linzy, that you pointed out. It takes a lot for a therapist to start recognizing, Oh, something needs to change with money. Like, I’m not able to save anything for the future or I can’t even pay my bills. Like when it gets that extreme, then sometimes therapists start having some alerts go off. Oh oh. So when that happens, the first thing I recommend, I recommend three steps. The first thing I recommend is they make space for the feelings. Because when you’re in a space where you’re really trying to help people and you’ve done everything right according to what you’ve been told, and then you’re still not even able to pay your bills or you’re not taking lunch breaks because you’re just sitting back to back to back clients. Once you start acknowledging that, it can be very shameful. Yeah, there might be guilt or anxiety about recognizing that you might want to do something different. It’s just- there’s so many feelings involved. And so before we do anything, I encourage therapists to acknowledge and make space for all of the feelings that arise in this situation. 

Linzy [00:11:45] Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:11:45] The second thing, the feelings don’t go away, folks, also keep doing that for the rest of these two or three steps, right? Number two, therapists have to get into reality and therapists, when it comes to money – you know this because you work with therapists around money – they avoid it. You’ve got to get real about what you need. We have a calculator. We can link to that in the show. People can go to Lean In Make Bank dot com forward slash fee calculator and we actually walk therapists through, step by step, their monthly expenses, their dream expenses. So not just like, here’s what I need to get by and suffer, but also what I need for clinical supervision. What do I need to be able to have enough time to write that book I want to write? What do I need to take a vacation every quarter for a week, right, the dream along with the needs. And then we also have therapists go through: in your ideal world where you have energy to show up, where you’re excited to do the work you want to do, how many people are you actually seeing a day? How many days are you actually working a week? So we have people do all of that work in this calculator and then we spit out: here is the fee you need to be charging if you want to have a life that really allows you to show up fully for yourself and your clients and whatever relationships you value. That’s number two. The third step. Once you do that, it’s phone a friend, you gotta phone a friend because if you do that calculator right, you’re going to have a large discrepancy likely between what you’re currently charging. Maybe that’s a $70 you’re taking from an insurance panel or you’re doing 125 or maybe even charge like 180. But that’s like one person and the rest pay like 110. Right. There is likely going to be a large discrepancy between what you need and where you’re currently at. And in that moment, I encourage you to call someone. It doesn’t have to be a therapist. Maybe even I’d encourage it not to be a therapist. 

Linzy [00:13:31] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:13:34] Someone who wants you to do well, someone who is excited by the possibility of you earning more, and have more luxury, and having more joy and more financial freedom. Call that person and walk through the results of your calculator and what the fee came out to be and let them know how you’re feeling at this point. 

Linzy [00:13:52] You know, it’s so interesting, Tiffany, when you say that, and I don’t know if this is like if our listeners are going to have this response, too, but I was thinking about I don’t know if everybody has that person. Like, I think when you’ve been the helper, I mean, you should have that person. That’s the next step: if you don’t know that person, go make that friend. Go to a café and find that friend. Because I think when you have played that helper role, so like when you’re really entrenched in it, like when you really live and breathe it and when that’s who you are in your family and that’s who you are in your work, that’s often also who you are in your friend group. And I think you and I have both, you know, I know we have because we’ve talked about this over the years, had, you know, these experiences where we do have to kind of shift and find those people because we have actually built relationships where people are like, well, unconsciously, I actually feel more comfortable when you stay small. And so I am actually going to probably not validate these things and not want you to have luxury because there’s something about that that’s serving me. And so I’m just thinking about that, just like how much this conditioning generalizes into our life and makes it hard to make these changes because, you know, it makes you think about kind of like family of origin, like there’s a metaphor kind of about family therapy. I do not do family therapy, by the way, if people listening, you’re going to be like, Oh, she’s butchering it. But there’s kind of a metaphor of like a family, like a mobile, and when one person tries to move, everybody else also shifts and tries to keep you in that fixed position because it’s like, no, no, no, this is your role, this is who you are. And I think that happens, too, in the other relationships that we build, right? Like folks try to keep us in place. So just curious what your thoughts about that. Like what what do folks do if they realize that that’s a case? Or like, what are your thoughts on all of this, these relationships that we build in these patterns sometimes? 

Tiffany [00:15:36]  I love that you bring that up. It’s super on point. You’ve talked- we’ve talked about it amongst each other. I’ll say two things. I think the lack of community is one of the things that motivated me to start my program because I was wanting to talk about fees, understand what was going on interpersonally. And I looked around and the messaging I got was, don’t charge, it’s scary. Don’t talk about money. From even my supervisors. Everywhere I looked, I got that. 

Linzy [00:16:03] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:16:03] And so, you know, being a helper, I’m like, I’m just going help myself. I’m going to create a whole entire business where therapists do not have to be alone with these kinds of conversations. 

Linzy [00:16:12] Yes, yes, yes. 

Tiffany [00:16:13] I think that’s the first thing. So if if this is something, if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re like, I don’t have anyone, come to work with us because we have a whole lot of people who have to learn to have these conversations in an honest, powerful, clinically appropriate way. The second thing that came to mind is, you know, sometimes in the comments – talking about the ads I put out there for the business or the program – sometimes therapists say, well, just raise your fees. What’s the problem? Hmm. Because the exact thing you’re talking about, Linzy, that’s the problem. Our fees are a projection. I like to talk about money as a canvas. Right? So we can we can project all of our thoughts, feelings, anxieties, and all of our existing patterns. We play out in money. So raising our fee often isn’t just about raising our fee, it’s about addressing these relationships. You’re talking about, Linzy, where we are the caretakers, we sacrifice ourselves. Other people have come to rely and depend on us for that. And if we shift, whether it’s with our clients or our spouses or our family, it’s disruptive to everyone around us. And without having a clear community, step by step system, a place with people and a container – we have a yearlong container. So a container where, as you make these shifts, you can come back for help as other people and things in your life start to shift. Yeah, it’s not just about raising your fees and earning more money. It’s about showing up as a different human in the world, a different clinician, but also a different mom, a different spouse, a different friend, a different son or daughter. You have to be different to do this work.  

Linzy [00:17:50] That’s so true. And that’s so profound. And I mean, it makes me think about when I found you, going back, where are we now? We’re in 2023. Would have been in 2017 that I found you. I was so hungry for that community. And to be with people who are like, Let’s be therapists. Also, let’s open our gifts and take up space and like, talk about, you know, for me, I’m like, let’s talk about money. Yeah, that’s something you and I shared back then. I flew across the continent to go be with those people. And that’s still my community of peers, like, you know, I’m planning a trip to San Francisco this year because it’s like you’re in San Francisco, Annie Wright’s in San Francisco, like, Megan’s just a little bit north. Meagan Megginson. Like these people that I connected with, through being connected with you, have become my peers who have cheered me on and like, taken up space with me, right? Because I think a lot of my – literally all of my peers – couldn’t come with me on that journey. It’s like I picked a different road and like, I think that is the power of that community. So, you know, if you’re listening and you’re hungry for this, like Tiffany’s program provides that. You know, if you’re looking more for the skill side of things. My program provides that, like, get with your people because it does take months and months and years of work to undo, you know, this conditioning that that we’ve received family of origin, society, and in our, you know, professional training. Like it really is deep ongoing work that is so much easier when you’re walking alongside people who are doing it as well. 

Tiffany [00:19:16] Yeah, I haven’t felt – I don’t know if you felt that – I felt a little grief as you were talking because there was a lot of grief as well. To say goodbye to these patterns often means saying goodbye to relationships because we’re changing and it’s intolerable to other people. So even those kinds of things. This is why – back to the original question of why is it so hard to talk about? Because often shifting the way as we relate to money and our desire and ourselves taking up space, like you said, means there are people who no longer want to be in relationship with us. And that’s that’s a big change. And it’s often there’s often a lot of mourning involved, for sure. 

Linzy [00:19:51] Yeah. And I will say too, there’s people that we no longer want to be in relationship with either because they don’t want us to be this new version of ourselves. 

Tiffany [00:19:59] Correct. 

Linzy [00:19:59] And I’ve I’ve had those kinds of discords over the last few years where it’s like every time I hang out with this person, I feel small again, right? Or I feel bad or I feel like I should be hiding my success. And then it’s like, right, I actually I don’t feel that way. So I need to make a choice. Yes. So no longer. And yeah, there is a lot of grief there. Absolutely. So thinking about fees, like I know some some folks listened to this podcast and it may be you listen to struggle with scarcity and this feeling like there isn’t enough- there aren’t enough clients, like maybe their caseload is not full and they see those empty spaces on their caseload. I’m reading their thought bubble right now, and I think one of the thoughts in that thought bubble would be like, Why would I even think about raising my fee if I can’t fill my caseload at the more affordable fee that I have right now? Like, isn’t that kind of putting like the carriage before the horse? Why would they think about raising their fee if they’re still trying to fill their practice or get the referrals that they haven’t been able to get yet? 

Tiffany [00:20:57] Yeah, it’s so counterintuitive. It’s so counterintuitive to be charging $150 per session and then have someone come tell you, actually, you should be charging based on your own calculations. Yeah, $180 per session. So let’s work on raising those fees with your current clients and then a new client to call. What, Like, it’s just. It’s almost unthinkable. And on the other side of things, and the years I’ve been running this program, one of the most difficult things that I see therapists going through is when they did the marketing first and got an entire caseload of people at a fee that was too low. And now they’re realizing, Oh, I’m seeing – I really hope it’s not 40, but it could be – 40 people a week. But let’s say it’s even 25 or 30 people a week, and they’re still overwhelmed. More overwhelmed. Are totally burned out, resentful, feel so relieved when a client cancels. They aren’t enforcing the cancellation policy. Aren’t going on vacation. They’re now in a place where they feel trapped by the caseload they worked so hard to build, and they’re still nowhere near being able to pay their bills or pay off their loans or save for retirement, life insurance. And heaven forbid, you know, sometimes therapists, often, if they’re in a romantic relationship, married, let’s say, they kind of put off the reality of these things because they have a spouse. 

Linzy [00:22:17] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:22:17] We’ve had people in our program for whom their spouse has passed away or a health condition has happened and suddenly they’re the primary breadwinner. So really, it’s- therapists are avoiding taking these things seriously. It can put us in a difficult position. So therapists will come to us and say, I really- I realize I need to raise my fees. I can’t do this anymore. I just get goose bumps. But I don’t know how to raise fees now with these 25 people who I’m already working with, I wish I could just start with new fees, but I don’t even have room to take anyone new, much less market, much less do anything else I need to do to take care of myself, so I- we can help people. Those are those are most of the people come into our program. The people who are sometimes luckier are the folks who join the program. Maybe. Maybe they only have five or ten folks. Then they can raise their fees with those five or ten folks. And guess what? They’re now maybe they are only seeing five folks, but they’re charging 200 per hour, which gives them enough income to then have time to understand how to really market to clients who can afford the premium fees and also who they have to be as a therapist to have a conversation with somebody such that that client is confident to say, Yeah, I want to pay this therapist, I’m going to make a sacrifice to pay this therapist $200 because I truly believe they can help me. 

Linzy [00:23:33] Mm hmm. 

Tiffany [00:23:34] If a therapist is seeing 28 clients, burnt out, overwhelmed, frustrated, stressed, financially insecure, and someone calls them on the phone. All of that is conveyed. 

Linzy [00:23:44] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:23:44] All of that comes through in those no matter what marketing you’re doing. Yeah. You’re unconsciously communicating. Please, I can’t take anymore. That’s a new client. And the clients are even saying right now they feel it. 

Linzy [00:23:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I mean, part of what I’m hearing here is, like, if you can build a machine that works in the first place, like build a practice that’s actually going to meet your needs. Because when we do build those practices at like super low fees. And I remember those days. I don’t remember – I don’t know if you ever went through this when you were building your practice – but I remember those days where it’s like, Will you be my client? Or You’ll be my client? Okay, you have a problem I’ve never dealt with before. That’s fine. I can learn how to do, you know, like I’ll look up how to do gender affirmation. Like, I’m, like, looking up stuff that is, like, so not in my, like, clinical realm because it’s just like this- there’s desperation that can happen there, right? And that’s when we’re setting our fees from that place. We can build a practice where the math will never work, the math will never work. And when you’re saying, like you said, 40 and then you said only 20 or 30, I’m like, even that makes you want to lie on the floor and cry like, that’s so, so much emotional labor. Like, it’s so much profound work that you are doing. I think it’s- there’s very few therapists who can thrive at that level of caseload. And those who do tend to be people who have super superhuman levels of energy. And maybe you could like take up rowing or something instead, you know, like they could possibly channel some of that energy to a hobby. But yeah, when you build it so it doesn’t work, you’re never going to be okay. I love this piece and I feel like this is a piece that I’ve heard you talk about more and more over the last few years of like the clinical excellence part of like when you charge a fee that makes you have to show up differently, like you’re actually a better clinician. Can you speak more to that or talk about some examples of what that has looked like for your students? 

Tiffany [00:25:32] I certainly can. I’m going to just be talking about our Facebook ads all day long because there’s so much learning that happens there. There was a therapist who came on, This is disgraceful, he said about the ads and he said, I make 400,000 and I take insurance. First of all, someone checked. They’re like, there’s no way that math adds up. 

Linzy [00:25:47] Awful math. Okay. Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:25:49] But so when asked how many people are you seeing. So this conversation is going back and forth. And he said something like 40 clients a week. So and I think and someone added up like you, you saw 40 clients a week for 52 weeks. With this insurance rate, you’re still not making enough, so you take no time off. So we can all see in those egregious examples. Yeah, if you are seeing 25 or 30 people a week, you’re not making enough money yourself. You’re not examining your own needs, the boundaries that you would have to take on to be able to have those conversations to actually make sure you’re advocating for your needs. As much as you want to believe you’re helping your clients do that in their own life, I assert that you actually are missing something and you can’t fully help your client do a thing that you’ve never been willing or able to do in your own life. As therapists start taking the risk to see what they really need to be charging, feel all – I’m getting goose bumps again – feel all the loss and mourning and fear that comes with making that change in their own life. They start shifting in their clinical work, are being able to challenge their own clients more, really being able to go to emotionally vulnerable places when their clients are struggling with setting boundaries or making changes, they’re able to show up more fully in a way that they’re never able to do. Therapist Listening, you’re not actually able to show up fully when you’re cutting out this whole part of your own unconscious process and saying, I’m not going to look at those boundaries for my own needs in this fundamental way. 

Linzy [00:27:26] Totally. Yeah. And it makes me think about how even just on a very almost obvious level, when we’re working in such a way that we can go home and have the energy to have like a great date with our partner or have some great sex or go away to a spa with friends. Like we show up the next day with a spark, right? Like that lights us up as humans, and then we’re actually maybe practicing what we preach a little bit, right? And like those days where it’s just like you have actually, like, lived life and you’re actually sometimes able to clinically even bring that in and like, talk about something that suddenly has real meaning because you have been applying it in your life, right? Or you have had, you know, an experience. You’re not telling somebody what to do. Well, you know, like working eight clinical hours a day, going home, bingeing on Cheetos. Yeah, passing out, right, like that never feels good when we’re out of alignment. And so even from that direct level, like, we all know that we do better clinical work when we’re happy. 

Tiffany [00:28:26] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:28:27] Right. And when we’re actually living life like there’s so much integrity there. But I also love this whole piece, you know, and being friends with you. Over the years, I’ve become more acquainted with psychoanalytic language because you and I live – we’re in different therapy. towers – I live in the like trauma EMDR parts work tower, and you’re in the psychoanalytic tower. But, like, yeah, all of these disowned things, right? Like, if we’re not even willing to think about taking a risk and think about our own needs and have hard conversations, yeah, how can we really be authentically helping our clients do that work? And how can we really actually understand what we’re asking them to do when we are coaching them to do those same things? 

Tiffany [00:29:03] And absolutely 100%. There’s also something about the projections, Speaking of the kind of the psychoanalytic world and other modalities as well. When therapists say – I’m in a conversation, I have email conversations. If you will email me, I’ll probably email you back. So I’m having this along, over the period of a week, conversation with a therapist who’s saying she’s not in the program. She’s like, I could never raise fees with existing clients and we’re going back and forth about it. And even that, I haven’t asked her this yet. I may or may not. But the assertion, if you’re out there listening to this podcast and you said I can, you’re thinking I can never do it, I can never raise fees more than five or $10. My hunch is there’s a lot of your own over-identification, your own projections. You’re basing that on your own life, not the actual lived experience of the person sitting across from you. And even the even in that statement, I could never raise fees or I have to be accessible. You’re already cutting off the potential of a person across from you. You’re cutting off the possibility that they could find other ways to make money, that they may already have money somewhere, that they can actually grow and change and make a different professional choice so that they can afford to pay more in therapy where we’re limiting them because of our own fears, anxieties, and projections lately about relationships, where we’re playing in our own family avoidance. Now we’ve brought them here and we’re playing them out with our clients as well. 

Linzy [00:30:34] Spot on. Spot on, Tiffany McLain. As usual. Like I- the thing that that makes you think about too. An adjacent piece to that is like we really are in that way treating our clients like victims. 

Tiffany [00:30:46] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:46] It’s like do you actually believe that your clients can solve problems, grow, change? And I’ve talked about this with my students before because I’ll even see this come up in money skills where people are like, well, I can’t come to calls ever because I have a client on Tuesday at 1:00 and I’m like, okay, well, the client, have you asked them about changing times? Like, you know. But it’s like in that, here’s the belief, the belief is my client is so inflexible, they have no other availability. They’re so tied to this specific time with me that it would be damaging to our relationship for them to realize that I have other things that I do that might come into this time. Like it’s such a limited view of your client. And like, what I try to remind my students of is like, your client actually might be relieved. They might actually have been hoping to see you at four, but they think that one’s the only time you have available, right? There might be a different day that works better for them anyways. Right. We make such limited stories and I think so much of that is as therapists we sit with our clients, like in their vulnerability, in their trauma, in their shame, like we are experiencing such specific parts of them and we don’t see them when they’re like kicking ass and getting a raise at work or when they’re like really good at board games, or when they tell a really funny joke and everybody at the table laughs. Like, we don’t see those moments in their life where they’re like shining and feeling strong because that’s not what generally the content that we’re talking to them about. But they have those parts. And if we don’t acknowledge that our clients can solve problems and grow and change and as you say, even make like big career shifts and take up more space in their own life, there’s an inherent limitation to the work that we’re doing with them because maybe, maybe Tiffany, part of us wants them to stay small. 

Tiffany [00:32:25] Yeah, wholly. Okay, let’s stop. Let’s pause on this for a minute. Wow. How can you wax philosophical about that for another second? 

Linzy [00:32:36] Well, I think, you know, okay, this is a new idea. So we’re going to talk it out. But I do think that when we. When we’re really married to this idea of like, people really need me. They need me to solve these problems. We are invested in them not changing and growing, right? Like, you know, another language around it I think would be codependency. want to be needed. And unconsciously we might be committed to the idea that they shouldn’t change and grow, that we you know, this is what makes us feel comfortable. This is the role we’re comfortable playing. And if our role is helper, then, and if we can’t imagine ourselves being in any other role, I think unconsciously we’re going to put other people in our life into the role of being helped. Right? The dependent we are. And if We are so committed to that role of helper and we cannot do the work to step outside of it and to expand and be excited about being other things in our world. I do wonder if that is going to contribute to relationships where we don’t want our clients to go away and we don’t want our clients to have a breakthrough and graduate from therapy and maybe even do work that we haven’t been willing to do on ourselves yet. 

Tiffany [00:33:46] Wow. As you’re talking, this is fascinating. This is wild. You’re making me think about the students who come into our program. Often when therapists come into our program, they are seeing their own therapist on a sliding scale. Yes. Yes. And one of the changes that a lot of them are making to their sometimes a lot of a lot of grief around it, sometimes relief, is they end up finding a new therapist who charges more. And when therapists start talking to their own sliding scale therapist about the changes they’re making in their own practice, often their therapists, sometimes they’re encouraging. And that’s great. Often they’re encouraging them to keep their fees low, stay at their agency jobs, don’t go into private practice. So this phenomenon you’re talking about, I was, as you’re talking, I was thinking, is that really true? What therapist would- yes, therapists literally, to each other, discourage them from making changes in their life that would improve their own financial situation. I would encourage our listeners to really take some time to think clearly about whether this dynamic may be going on, whether this is going on with your own clients and patients, folks. Yes. 

Linzy [00:34:55] Yeah, absolutely. Because I think too, you know, an adjacent piece here is scarcity, right? So when we have fear of like, I won’t find more clients, there is going to be parts of us that are invested in our clients just sticking around for years. Right. And as a clinician, something I used to say to my clients, it’s like my job is to get you out the door. Mm hmm. I want you to leave. I like you a lot. And also, I’m successful when you don’t need me anymore. Right. And I think I would have that conversation openly because I wanted to make sure that we were not fostering a dependance. Right? That, like, we had the goal of them going. And I do. You know, that’s also a value that I have. And I don’t know how you feel about the work you do, but I actually have that value too, in the work, the money skills work that I do. Right. Like, this is why I don’t offer endless coaching and like recurring programs, even though I have folks that I love to work with and I know who would like to work with me on a repeating basis, like I want to give you the skills that you jump out of the nest and you saw a way and I’m like, buh bye! Right? Like, I want other people to also be big. But I think it’s too, doing the work on myself and being okay with myself, taking up space and doing continued work to keep pushing those growing edges out further and further. That allows me to want my students to even grow beyond what I have accomplished. Yeah, but it’s, you know, there’s there’s work that has happened there. I’m curious, like, how do you do you have a relationship to that piece? 

Tiffany [00:36:20] I’m the opposite cause I’m psychoanalytic. So I’m like, I want to see my analyst two times a week at $325 for the rest of my life or hers, rest of her life, when she’s much older than me and not the rest of my life. Yeah, you’re going to have a problem. And that may change, actually. I’m sure as things change, I will leave her, but I don’t want even imagine it. So it’s definitely a different modality. 

Linzy [00:36:41] Just a different modality, Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:36:42] Thinking about even like currently I offer I don’t offer a forever program. Yeah, but seeing I’m thinking about offering something that goes on until I’m ready, like you said, to grow and change because it’s so hard to find continued community that is doing this work in this deep way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I often have therapists say this: in this program was the only place I found a community that is doing this. And in fact, I went into the limb community today. It’s in the mighty network. And I saw Texas live meet up, California zoom meeting. It was even seeing them. They are continuing on their own. And if there’s a way that I can continue to create a container that folks can continue to do this work, I haven’t come up with it. I don’t know if I can, but if I could, I would. 

Linzy [00:37:26] Well, and that is one of your superpowers for sure, is community building, like creating the space where folks can build community. I think like you are. You’re the best, Tiffany, I think in our space, I think that you are the best of that. So I think I also to give credit where credit is very, very due. I know you’re very, very good at that, at fostering those spaces for folks to make those connections. 

Tiffany [00:37:48] Thank you for saying that. And I think I’ve still, you know, this, Linzy, I have a son in preschool now and I’m like, I don’t know how to bust into this community. How do I make friends? So really, I do think that there’s a a creating a- continuing to create a space that I want and I can do it here and help other people do it as well. And therapists, it’s very difficult for us to have a space where we can not only feel supported and seen, but give and take critical feedback to help us grow. That’s a that is a thing that I really emphasize and that I’ve really worked on cultivating. Just like I want my therapist to do with your clients, folks, I want to be able to do it with each other. Colleagues.

Linzy [00:38:28] Have hard conversations.

Tiffany [00:38:29] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:38:32] Tiffany, Tiffany, this has been really wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me again on the podcast today. If folks want to find you, if they haven’t already, where is the best place for them to connect with you? 

Tiffany [00:38:46] I’ll get folks to places because you’re listening to a podcast right now. I encourage you to search the money sessions wherever you listen to podcasts. I no longer create that podcast, but there are something like 80 episodes where you can hear therapists literally having these conversations that Linzy and I are talking about how they implemented these things in their own practices and the difficulty of it and the challenge and the other side of it. You can go hear those stories today, and if you are in the place, we’re saying, I hear you where you are saying, I think I want to take the step, but I’m not sure. I encourage folks to check out our free workshop. You can go to Lean In Make Bank dot com forward slash workshop, and you can check out that workshop there. 

Linzy [00:39:33] Awesome. Thank you, Tiffany. 

Tiffany [00:39:36] Thanks. 

Linzy [00:39:50] Something that I appreciate so much about Tiffany. And I was thinking about it, you know, before we recorded it. You know, as Tiffany and I talked about, Christelle, my operations and marketing coordinator and I were talking about her just before Tiffany recorded, like, she’s so bold and unapologetic in her assertion that therapists deserve to be more than okay. And that does bring up kind of this conflict around her. I just really admire and love how she doesn’t waver. Like she’s just really – she’s on your side. Therapists and health practitioners who are listening, like she wants you to be more than okay. And I know that internally we can have parts of us that, you know, really get caught up and worried and guilty and unsure about what we deserve or what’s okay and accessibility. And like these are things where I think there’s lots of space to have nuanced conversation. But I just always appreciate how Tiffany, at the end of the day is just so clear that therapists deserve to be paid well for this work that we do, and then it’s valuable work, and that when we do step into a feature that meets our needs, it actually allows us to do the work better. Just so, so grateful to Tiffany for the work that she’s done in our space. And it’s, you know, you get to decide what you need, like she said, like there is no fee. You can go check out her fee calculator. It’s it’s a really great tool I think it was lean in make bank dot com slash fee calculator. Check out that tool. The number that you get is going to give you some idea of what it’s going to tell you what you need and that’s going to look different for everybody. Some people may find that that number is $300 an hour. Other folks, if you’re living in a more affordable place or if you have, you know, a joint income situation where you are not the main breadwinner in her family, it might be a much lower number and it might be a number that’s quite close to where you are. But getting clear about that number and taking those steps to actually have your needs met, it’s very powerful work. So I appreciate Tiffany coming on the podcast today. If you’d like to follow me on Instagram, you can find me @moneynutsandbolts. We post practical and emotional money content on there on the regular. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, you can use the gap between seasons now to take 3 minutes to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. You’re probably going to have several weeks to do this, but it only is going to take 3 minutes. So take 3 minutes now and leave a review of the podcast. Let folks know what episode you enjoyed or what you like about the podcast. That helps other therapists to find the podcast and be part of these conversations. Thank you so much for listening and making the podcast just the wonderful thing that it is. I love making it and I love hearing from you folks about the impact that it’s having for you. And we’ll be together soon again when Season six comes out. 

Brittany [00:00:02] I’m going to tell them during the consultation calls or whatever, like, my fee is 150. And leave it at that. 

Linzy [00:00:13] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today on the podcast, we have a coaching episode with Brittany. Brittany is a student of Money Skills. She’s about halfway through the course lessons and she is the owner and therapist behind Reflect to Grow Counseling. She loves to help her clients organize their thoughts, develop strategies to accomplish their goals, and she’s currently taking a postgrad class for fertility counseling with the intention of specializing in that field. And we do get into that in this episode. She has lots of experience working with people struggling with anxiety, LGBTQIA+ exploration, and perfectionism. And today in our conversation, Brittany and I got into a topic that I think so many therapists can relate to, which is feeling guilt at her fee. So Brittany and I talk about how she feels guilt charging her full fee, which is she’s aiming to charge a fee of 150 and all the obstacles that come up to that. And Brittany has identified that she needs to have at least half of her caseload on out of pocket at 150. She’s able to keep the other half at insurance and sliding scale, which is important to her. But is finding it’s very difficult to actually command that fee and and set that fee with people. And so we get today into some of the money stories underneath, that are some pieces about, you know, valuing our work. And if you’re a therapist who struggles to charge a fee or has struggled, there’s lots in this episode today, we kind of take a few different paths over the course of the episode. As the conversation unfolds, we end up in a nice, practical place. Here is my coaching episode with Brittany. So, Brittany, welcome to the podcast. 

Brittany [00:02:29] Thank you. It’s great to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:31] Yeah, it’s great to have you here. So you Brittany, you’ve worked kind of through like half way of Money Skills at this point, is that- just to give folks a sense of where you’re at? 

Brittany [00:02:40] Yes, I’m still working my way through. 

Linzy [00:02:43] Yes. Okay. So you’ve got some like you’ve done some kind of mindset work already, a little bit with the course, but you’re still building out systems and stuff like that. 

Brittany [00:02:52] Yes, exactly.  

Linzy [00:02:54] Okay. So for our time together today, Brittany, what did you want to get support on? 

Brittany [00:03:01] I would like to talk some more about the idea of charging full private pay fees and the guilt that I feel around that. And I know that’s a big topic in private practice industry these days. I see it a lot. 

Linzy [00:03:20] Oh, yes. 

Brittany [00:03:20] But it doesn’t do anything- I still feel immense guilt. So I kind of wanted to kind of explore that with you a little bit and see it ways to overcome it. 

Linzy [00:03:29] Okay. Okay. So to give me and the folks listening a sense like what is your full fee that you’re trying to charge. 

Brittany [00:03:36] 150 for 45 minutes sessions. 

Linzy [00:03:39] 150 for 45 minutes. Okay. And where are you at in terms of what most folks are paying? 

Brittany [00:03:45] So I take insurance. So it’s a majority of my caseload is insurance pays. And then I do have a few who are sliding scale for different reasons. And I have very few. Like the vast majority minority of my caseload is full fee.  

Linzy [00:04:07] Yeah. And with this, like, I’m curious about your vision and where you want to go. What do you want? Your kind of composition of your caseload to eventually look like when it comes to this stuff? 

Brittany [00:04:18] Oh, I would love to have over half my caseload be private pay full fee. And then the other less than half be insurance based plus sliding scale. 

Linzy [00:04:34] Okay. Okay. So you’re aiming for half private pay at that 150, and then the other half will still be insurance sliding scale. 

Brittany [00:04:42] Yeah, because I was doing the math and I would be in a much better place if that was the situation. 

Linzy [00:04:47] Right. Okay. Okay, great. And I love to hear the phrase, “I was doing the math”. That’s good. So, I mean, do you have a grounding, right? Like you understand what these numbers will actually mean for you? And this is the target you’re setting for yourself, which is great. Right. Okay. So tell me then about the guilt at the thought of charging your full fee. What is that like? 

Brittany [00:05:06] Okay, so I come from a more, let’s say, modest financial background. Growing up, I was very fortunate in the sense that therapy was always encouraged in my household and was just seen as a reality. So that is very, very fortunate. But at the same time, it was always insurance, like the idea of paying a mental health professional. Their full price is for the rich and for people with disposable income. And all of that kind of stuff was like it was never even a notion for things. I’ve heard about therapy kind of growing up and even in like early adulthood. So that’s kind of where I come from with all of it, where it’s like insurance covers mental health for a reason. And all of that kind of stuff. 

Linzy [00:06:00] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, first of all, it’s nice to hear you grew up in a pro therapy environment. That’s cool. But the idea is like, yeah, therapy is is should be covered by insurance. And let’s dig a little bit more into those stories about paying full fee for insurance. You said it’s for the rich. Tell me more about it. 

Brittany [00:06:18] Which I don’t believe currently, but I was kind of like. 

Linzy [00:06:20] Okay, but this is the story. 

Brittany [00:06:21] Yeah, yeah. That was kind of the message I would get because, you know, you would watch TV and it would be like the rich, the rich person paying for the fancy schmancy psychiatrist and the office kind of thing. And people I knew who would go to therapists, it would always be at a nonprofit clinic or something like that. I really didn’t become familiar with private pay therapists till I got into private practice myself. 

Linzy [00:06:49] Right. Okay. Okay. Yes. So you you said there that this isn’t quite what you believe now. Like you don’t believe now that therapy is for like that private pay is for the rich? 

Brittany [00:06:59] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:07:00] What do you believe now about private pay therapy? 

Brittany [00:07:03] I believe that it’s an investment. 

Linzy [00:07:05] Right? Okay. Yeah. So I’m hearing you have some positive beliefs about what private therapy can do. An investment means that there’s, like, value there. Right. There’s something that comes out of it. So tell me then, when you are going to thinking about moving to this space of charging full fee to half of your caseload or what comes up. 

Brittany [00:07:26] Because then. So it’s one of those things where looking at a big picture, just looking at the numbers, it sounds beautiful and it’s all perfect. And yes, it’s an investment and all that stuff. But then you look at the individual stories, and that’s where I get stuck. Because people are struggling out there. It’s a hard world out there. And even when I’ve had discussions with some sliding scale folks, it’s it’s been difficult conversations. It’s like some of my sliding scale folks are people whose insurance I did take initially. And then the insurance got changed for whatever reason and then they didn’t. Like, there are so many different stories out there. So I get stuck with the individual. I even find- even for when someone does have to go private pay, I’ll find myself volunteering a sliding scale. I mean, like, but where you don’t have to be the full 150 like whole job because I feel terrible myself. But yeah, I mean, let’s go from a $10 co-pay to now a 150. 

Linzy [00:08:28] Right. So you’re not even giving them the chance to express how they feel or to react or to even agree. You’re jumping in there and saying, but obviously you can’t afford that. That’s the message, right? Like. 

Brittany [00:08:40] But obviously, that’s insane. So. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:08:43] Right, right, right, right. Okay. Okay. And I am curious, like, where are the folks that are working for who are paying full fee? And I know it’s a very small number. What is that like for you and for them to be paying full fee? What do you notice? 

Brittany [00:08:57] Yeah, so actually initially for them too, I started doing a new system where my sliding scale fee is temporary and it and it last three months and then every three months we reassess. 

Linzy [00:09:08] Yes, yes, yes. 

Brittany [00:09:10] So I’ve noticed that typically everyone starts out with sliding scale because it’s just my system. It’s in my own- it’s amazing. I’ve noticed, even when starting off with sliding scale, like the clients who do pay full fee were okay with paying full fee, right? Like, yeah, that’s your fee. Yeah. And I even had one person say, like, it’s worth it to me. Yes. And I was like, Oh, like, that took me a back. 

Linzy [00:09:42] Right. Right. And can you take that in, like hearing one of your clients, like, not a hypothetical person, but like someone you really work with saying to you, it’s worth it? 

Brittany [00:09:54] It’s my initial response that even is like, That’s not true. That can’t be. It just me talking, which I think is a problem. 

Linzy [00:10:01] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. So what is your perception then, of the value of your work? 

Brittany [00:10:06] I have a very difficult time believing that sessions with me are worth over $100, even though they’re- like most of my clients are long term clients. I haven’t had openings in my caseload for months at this point, and even then I still have people emailing me, asking for openings. So like I have proof that people come back for one reason or another. But I still have a very difficult time believing that like I’m doing something good here and that I’m doing something valuable here. And that’s a me thing, and I recognize that. But all the same, it still affects my business. 

Linzy [00:10:42] Well, of course it’s a you thing. That’s why we’re here, right? We’re working on like, these deep stories that because this is really shaping how your practice looks at in turn, it’s shaping how your financial life looks. You know, you’re telling me if you can get to the point where half your caseload is at full fee and we’re not even talking about like your whole caseload and we’re not talking about a premium fee or all of these kind of other things, you know, we’re talking about half your caseload being full fee would dramatically change your financial picture. Right. But what’s in the way here is, by the sounds of it, you really owning the value of what you do. 

Brittany [00:11:16] Absolutely. And I’m also at a point to where I hope and plan to hire a therapist to work under me. But I really need to work through my own stuff first before I could be a leader for others. 

Linzy [00:11:29] Yes. Yeah. If you want to be able to model somebody owning the value of their work and it’s very wise, I’m glad to hear you say that you want to do this work before you start mentoring, you know, somebody else in such a close way. So with this, then I’m curious. And you know, we’re going to be really vague here because we don’t want to give to anything that could be identifying, obviously. Yes. But I’m curious, like, can you think about a moment where you really felt the impact of the work that you were doing with someone like one of those like, magical sessions? Can you think of any of those, like magical sessions where you’re just like, sometimes I know from for me, when I was practicing therapy, there was sometimes be an eye outside of myself being like, Whoa, this is like, profound. Yeah, the part that’s watching the work. Do you have any kind of memories like that that you can connect with? 

Brittany [00:12:16] It’s very hard to think of, like on the spot. Yeah, but I get those moments a lot where I’ll just be like, Where the hell did that come from? Right? A moment. 

Linzy [00:12:27] So, yes, when you say, Where the hell did that come from, do you mean something that you’ve done or said? 

Brittany [00:12:32] That has been something that I said that I would never say to myself with my own problem. Right. Of course. It’s like magically came out of my mouth. 

Linzy [00:12:38] You’re like, Oh, she’s good, right? And so those moments then, like, if we can connect to one of them for you, like what is the emotion that goes with those moments that I’m hearing happen? 

Brittany [00:12:51] Often it feels like elation, like I’m so proud of myself in that moment of like, Oh my God, I did choose the right career path and I am doing what I’m supposed to do, but it doesn’t last long. The feeling. But like it’s there temporarily. 

Linzy [00:13:05] Yeah. Yeah. So that elation – and if we can just stay with that elation for a minute, you know, like what’s happening in your body when you are elated. 

Brittany [00:13:13] It’s like the opposite of the dread you feel and stomach. It’s like instead of, like, the heavy feeling in the stomach, it’s like a little lightness in the stomach. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s kind of just like an absolutely just like, lightness that just feels feels wonderful. 

Linzy [00:13:27] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:13:28] I never realized that before. Thank you for asking it. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:13:32] So, you know, with that lightness, you know, that elation that like, well, I’m like, I’m in the right place. I’m doing the right work. From that place. Brittany, how much would you say a session with you is worth? 

Brittany [00:13:47] Guess at least 100. 

Linzy [00:13:49] So you dropped right away. Your energy was totally changed. What just happened? 

Brittany [00:13:54] I don’t know. I think a lot of it, I think, has to do with the whole notion of, like, helping people and, like, the whole notion of like, I heard recently from – I don’t know where – the concept of like pink collar, instead of blue collar, where pink collar like women aren’t. Yeah, I yeah, there are so many new terms coming out that start with. 

Linzy [00:14:15] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:14:16] But that’s when I heard was like teaching and helping professions and counseling was like, well, we should be helping if we have that demeanor and especially for females and whatnot. And I’m always stuck with like, well, of course I should be helping people if I have that skill. But then it’s like, but why shouldn’t I be able to make a good living off of it and like own a house one day, kind of live off of it. Right. 

Linzy [00:14:42] Yeah. And it’s a good question. Why shouldn’t you be able to make a good living and buy a house one day off of this? I would dare to say this gift that you have on top of all the training that you do, right. Because I will say, like, the work that we do, Brittany, it’s like there’s lots of training that goes into it. We spend lots of money to get here, you know, there’s all the little things then we’ve also made. But I will say, I do think that the best therapists have a natural gift that others couldn’t learn, right? It’s like if you have that that attunement and that natural empathy and just that like immense intuition, I think most people come into the work because they have that and it’s not something that somebody else could learn in school right now. 

Brittany [00:15:24] I mean, it’s true. 

Linzy [00:15:24] Yeah. You know, so, so thinking about all of that together, like, why shouldn’t you be able to make a good living off of the work you do? 

Brittany [00:15:33] I guess there is no reason ultimately. 

Linzy [00:15:36] Well, is there a reason inside? There’s some sort of objection here internally. And I know logically it might not make sense, but I’m wondering, like, what is maybe the illogical objection inside that makes it hard to even say that you should be getting paid $100 for this, like life changing work. 

Brittany [00:15:53] Because then I keep thinking, I don’t know, like the economy is so rough out there, the world is freaking hard out there. And so then I keep thinking of like, Wow, what about people who can’t afford it? But then again, like I do offer a sliding scale for people who can’t afford it. I’m not taking that away completely. I’m just talking about for people who can’t afford it. And there are people who could afford it. 

Linzy [00:16:17] Yeah. And you know, something that I think about too, Brittany and I’ve noticed in some clinicians there’s like less flexibility around this than I certainly used to have when I was practicing, is you can set your price and your clients can determine what they can afford, which could also look like a weekly client goes down to biweekly. Or like I remember I had this client who did not make very much money and they worked, you know, like as a kind of educational assistant role. And that’s an underpaid role. Pink collar. If we want to have a pink collar, that’s another one. And they had been doing therapy for a long time, but knew that they needed like EMDR processing. And I believe my fee at that time would have been 150. Same fee you’re talking about. And so they would come once a month for therapy. That’s what was in their budget. But when they came that once a month, they worked so frickin hard and they came ready being like, okay, this is what I know. It’s the month, this is what I want to work on. I want to keep doing this work that we did or I want to pick up on this new thing that came up, or I need to talk about this experience that’s happening. And they worked so hard and used that time with such intention and empowerment that in some ways it was like in that one session we would get done what someone else might get done in a whole month because they really owned the work? I wasn’t holding the responsibility for the work. They were responsible for the work and like they knew my skill set and what there was to do. But it was like this real like shared ownership of I was bringing my best to the table, but they were also bringing their best to the table, right, in this shared project that we had of like healing from trauma. And I’m curious like, how does that kind of idea sit with you that your clients can also like step up and take responsibility and solve problems when you set your boundary around what you’re able to? We’re able to charge, and I’m saying in your case, what you’re able to because I know that you’re talking about just getting to like a reasonable standard of living, right? Like we’re not talking at this point – and that could be a whole other conversation – we’re not talking about like luxury and travel and expansiveness or any of those kinds of things. Like we’re talking about being able to buy a house one day. 

Brittany [00:18:21] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:18:22] Okay. So if that’s a boundary for you, I’m curious, what do you think about the idea that your clients could rise to meet that boundary? 

Brittany [00:18:29] Yeah. That does make sense. I think it’s going to be one of those things where it’s going to be really difficult in the moment. I think it will be easier to try with new clients in the future that I get, to kind of just start like off the board like this. This is the-. 

Linzy [00:18:46] Like starting off on the right foot. Yeah. Mm hmm. 

Brittany [00:18:49] Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:50] Mm hmm. 

Brittany [00:18:51] With current clients, I really just don’t feel so comfortable with most of them doing that. And also, I’m not so sure that that’s a bad thing. Like, right now, I’m at the lowest. The amount of sliding scale clients I have right now is the lowest it’s been since I started my private practice. And I foresee that going further down, depending on whether insurance situations change and whatnot. So my thought process as of now is kind of having my sliding scale list closed. Right. Like, no more, no more spots. 

Linzy [00:19:25] No more sliding scale. Yeah. 

Brittany [00:19:26] Which is true, because I literally don’t have any more spots left in my client list.  And then just insurance clients I get. I have a lot of struggle with insurance clients who then change to an insurance they don’t take. But that’s a different thing to kind of be even in that situation. Like this is my new fee and I could help you find a therapist who does take your new insurance if that’s an issue. Which which will- is so hard to do. 

Linzy [00:19:51] But yeah. And what is hard about that. 

Brittany [00:19:54] Is that my clients, I don’t know, I feel like I work with people long term and I feel like I know them as well as one could know another person for the most part. And I enjoy- I genuinely enjoy working with my people. So that’s always hard when it’s like, well, let’s talk about maybe switching to a different therapist, but I think I’m going to try that in the future for those kinds of for those kinds of situations. 

Linzy [00:20:19] Yeah. You know, with that Brittany, I wonder to kind of turn over that coin and look at the other side. What can be good about somebody starting to work with a new therapist? 

Brittany [00:20:30] Oh, there are a lot of positives about it, but a lot of times too, it’s that the client is is hesitant to do that for whatever reason. 

Linzy [00:20:38] Yeah, they’re meeting somebody new. Stranger danger. Starting over. 

Brittany [00:20:41] Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, it’s not something I’ve really done in the past, but I’m open to trying. Going forward. 

Linzy [00:20:48] You know, it makes me wonder, then, in terms of beliefs, too, do you believe that other people can be as helpful to your clients as you can? 

Brittany [00:20:55] Oh, totally. Completely. Even better. 

Linzy [00:20:58] Okay. So that’s also something to, I think, connect with, you know, when these kinds of scenarios come up of like, you don’t take their insurance anymore, you’re not going be putting them on your sliding scale. And so it’s going to be a discussion of this is my fee or I’m happy to help you find someone else, is remembering there might be someone else who has a totally different angle than you get into something that is just not territory that you’re interested in or would have naturally taken them. The good things that can come from folks seeing multiple therapists over time. 

Brittany [00:21:26] Right. Yeah, that’s a good point. I could bring that up with with clients. A lot of times clients are just, like, hesitant to change. 

Linzy [00:21:34] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:21:35] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:36] Yeah. And, you know, I’ve closed my practice a couple of times. I closed my practice when I went on my maternity leave. And then I, like, closed my practice more full stop when I came back and was seeing a handful of clients. And I remember one of my clients saying to me, like, you know, that her family member said, like, well, maybe you’ll find someone even better. And she was like, I don’t know if I can. And I said, You might. Like, you’re going to find someone different. Right? And like, there’s always going to be therapists out there who work differently than we work and like, yeah, open like a new chapter in that person’s healing. But again, it’s just not work we would have done with them. And so that is something that I certainly talk to my clients about with closing things down is, you know, there’s going to be things that you and I have missed working on for years because I have a blind spot. Right. Or like you haven’t felt comfortable telling me or whatever. Right. Or it’s not a type of work that I do, that someone else is going to be able to get into with you. So the opportunities that come when somebody switches to a new therapist are also I find helpful for having those conversations. Obviously, not to dismiss the grief and all of those things that also. But of course. 

Brittany [00:22:35] Yeah, but that makes sense though. Like I think- 

Linzy [00:22:38] With endings come new beginnings. So coming back then to your work, like I’m hearing a decision to not add more folks to your sliding scale, your sliding scale is full. But also we started this conversation by talking about how you want to get to the point of getting to half your caseload being full fee. So let’s talk about that, what that road can look like for you. How do you actually want to start to make the changes to get to that place in your practice? 

Brittany [00:23:04] That’s where I get stuck because I have all these grand ideas. But actually like getting there is a whole thing in itself ultimately right now. I mean, my caseload is closed. I anticipate probably reopening it in like a couple of months or so based on just like for summaries and closures and all that. I’m working on improving my marketing to get clients who aren’t looking specifically for insurance based therapy. I’m I’m actually on a postgrad course now trying to work toward a specialty. So I need to kind of up my marketing around that specialty. So I’m working on a specialization in infertility and loss, perinatal mental health, maternal mental health, maternal mental health. That whole realm. 

Linzy [00:23:53] Yes. 

Brittany [00:23:54] Yes, yes. Specializing in infertility and loss. So I’m in a postgrad course for that now. And for that I feel like that is worth more like a more premium fee. So that is something that’s a specific specialization that I would like to be studying. 

Linzy [00:24:09] Yes, absolutely. 

Brittany [00:24:11] I need to work on really improving my marketing to reflect that specialization because I am like at it. I’ve done like a maybe a handful of people in the population. 

Linzy [00:24:21] Yeah, they can’t find you yet. 

Brittany [00:24:23] Oh, they’re not. Yes. Okay. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:24:25] So attracting those folks in and owning this is a specialization. And I will say as someone who has sought those services before, they’re very hard to find and it’s hard to find someone good. And so folks who are looking for you and who find you and you both do the work that they do and it feels like a personal fit are going to highly value what you do, right? It’s such it’s such a specialized niche. So I would say that you’re kind of on the horizon is like you’re going to have this specialty, you’re going to be marketing towards those folks. What about, I guess, what is the timeline on that, Brittany? 

Brittany [00:24:54] So my course will be ending in May. And I mean, it’s more of an ongoing thing where something I’m just continually educating myself. Yes, but I feel like I’ll have the confidence to say, like, I studied this in a postgraduate course. 

Linzy [00:25:07] You’ll be ready. Ta-da. Yes. Okay. 

Brittany [00:25:10] After May, I’ll be like, magically, like. 

Linzy [00:25:12] Roll out the carpet. 

Brittany [00:25:13] Yes, Yes. 

Linzy [00:25:14] Okay. And that’s not very long from now. So that actually sounds like I was thinking you were talking something like kind of far off. But no, that’s actually in the next. It’s in a month in a bit. So with that in mind, then. What I’d like you to think about is what is your goal to get to that half of your caseload being full fee and then reverse engineering? Here’s what the steps I’m going to take, because what I- what I’m feeling in you as we’re talking is I am feeling this like, yeah, that’s good. Kind of like I’m not I’m not feeling action yet. Right. I’m still kind of feeling a contemplation energy from you. Is that accurate? 

Brittany [00:25:50] Accurate. Yes, totally. Well, you’re on that. You’re you’re on point. 

Linzy [00:25:53] Yeah. Okay. So I’m curious then, like, what do you think you need to get you connected- keep you connected to the value of the work that you’re doing, that kind of like elation and also owning this new niche. How do you actually take these things so they help you make the changes you want to make to get your practice to where you need it to be financially? 

Brittany [00:26:15] I think kind of thing that comes to mind is that I’m going to need to change my referral source completely because all of my referral sources are insurance based or all of them are like, the first question is like, whatever. They’re very intertwined with insurance. So that’s kind of like if you see the kind of like contemplation on my face, which like I could kind of feel it’s between us like, well, how on earth do I find how on earth do I find new clients then? But that’s something that comes with more experience, more marketing that that realm of things. 

Linzy [00:26:50] Yes. And that networking piece, I mean, I, I really like humans, so I get really excited about networking because I’m like, oh, to meet new people. But it makes me think about, you know, who in your community is interfacing with those folks that you want to be serving that you can grab a tea with, take out for lunch, you know, like connect with this, start to build those referral sources, right. Like other folks who are supporting one of them, fertility naturopaths, like fertility clinics themselves. I know like I went through IVF with my son and since then, and so I know my clinic actually had a therapist that they was associated with the clinic who didn’t work for them but who they made referrals to. And she- 

Brittany [00:27:34] Oh wow. 

Linzy [00:27:34] -Was not good. 

Brittany [00:27:35] Oh. 

Linzy [00:27:36] So it’s like it makes you think about all the folks who would have, like, seen her like I did for one session. I was like, Well, that was an experience. I never went back. If you could be associated with a fertility clinic, as just- if you’re like, Hey, if you have folks who are like, you know, walking this road and having a hard time, send them to me. They they have literally hundreds of clients going through that process like every week, you know? So it’s like my brain goes to like all these places, you know, that I’ve been and that women that I know who have, you know, walked this road have been that with women. Women would be so excited to get your name and know about your services. 

Brittany [00:28:14] Yeah. And I even spoke with an acupuncturist recently who does infertility acupuncture, and she doesn’t take insurance and she’s like, Oh, I have tons of clients. You’re right. So I think just more networking. 

Linzy [00:28:23] Those are the people to talk to. Yes, right. And so, yeah, it is, you know, in a sense, Brittany, like what you’re talking about is rebranding your practice. Right? And when I say that, I don’t mean that you have to do like a fancy, beautiful, multi-thousand dollar website overhaul or anything like that. But like, you are changing your what you’re doing, right, and you’re going to have to change in that, how you talk about what you’re doing, who you’re connecting with, and like, to me it sounds like that work needs to be done because I also- but here’s the thing. Mm hmm. How do we make sure that when those women come to you, that you you offer them your full fee? 

Brittany [00:28:58] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:28:59] That you don’t talk yourself down, right? How can you commit to making sure that your full fee is actually what those women hear about? And you don’t take away the opportunity for them to pay you that? 

Brittany [00:29:11] That’s something I don’t have an answer for. I’m going to try my best to stay strong on that and keep a picture of the overall goal. 

Linzy [00:29:21] Yes. Part of this, Brittany, I think, is like, this is a fake it till you make it piece. Right. We need to give them the chance to show you that they value what you do. And so there’s just a behavioral piece here where I wonder what would happen is when a new woman calls you and she says, Hey, my acupuncturist told me about you. I’d really like to see you. You just say, Yeah, I would love to work with you. My fee is 150 an hour. Stop talking. Can you imagine yourself being able to do that? 

Brittany [00:29:47] Yeah. Yeah, I can. 

Linzy [00:29:50] Because when we stop talking, we give them a chance to actually respond, and most of the time they’re going to take a half a breath and say, okay, that sounds good. When are you available? We let them be in charge of the conversation, like, we like, we give them empowerment in that way, right? Rather than us deciding what they can afford to pay. 

Brittany [00:30:08] Right. 

Linzy [00:30:09] Right. Well, what do you notice in your body thinking about just doing that when when people start to call you because you’re going to make some great connections. Yeah. And just stating your fee and just ending the sentence there. 

Brittany [00:30:19] It’s totally against my nature because I just tend to try to fill up the silence, which is a clinical thing that I’m trying to work on anyway. But at the same time, like it makes sense that that’s a really solid idea, a really solid plan of action to just kind of shut myself up. 

Linzy [00:30:40] To stop talking. 

Brittany [00:30:41] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah. And then with that too, you know, you can also keep your eye on your sliding scale list and you will know if you have a spot available or not. Like what I’m hearing with a lot of this is what I get from you is like, you’re very caring, you’re really empathetic, you really like, feel your client’s hardships. Right? But sometimes with that, we can underestimate our client’s abilities to solve problems. Like there’s there’s almost like a little bit of like a codependence piece that can happen there where we like. We want to prevent any kind of discomfort from them or any kind of friction. But like you are working with adults and if you’re moving into, you know, as you continue moving this, like work with infertility, like you’re working with adults who’ve, like solved a lot of problems, navigating a lot of systems, and like, yeah, you know, I think there’s a lot that comes from just believing that our clients are competent. 

Brittany [00:31:31] Yeah, you’re right. 

Linzy [00:31:33] So with this, then, you know, we’ve kind of we’ve walked a couple paths in this conversation. So what is your action plan? What’s happening next after our conversation? 

Brittany [00:31:43] I think next steps are. To work on my networking more decide which local institutions, professionals, whatnot. I would like to get in contact with. And that also includes, like, working on marketing, boring marketing stuff like making business cards that are physical and go with a QR code that goes to my website and kind of- I don’t know, I’m sorry, you’re like, hitting right on my issue. Like I’m good at seeing the big picture where I want to be. I struggle so much between like getting there. 

Linzy [00:32:26] So yes. Yeah. And these are great steps. So you’re going to create a new referral network. And what I would suggest Brittany is, if this is an area where you’re just like gah, like, you know, you’re kind of like holding your head a little bit right now. It’s break it down, then, into those walkable steps. Right? So, like, what is the first step? Maybe the first step is generate a list of like ten people that, you know, work with folks that you want to be supporting more and reach out to five of them to start. And then you reach out to five the following week, making an ask of, Can I connect with you? I’d be happy to connect over coffee or tea or lunch. I’d be happy to come to your space. You know, like think about, you know, with the folks that you’re connecting with, what’s going to be an easy, natural way for them to want to connect, letting them know the value of I serve, you know, families who are going through these things. I’m perinatal mental health, I’m doing continued specialization, and I’m opening more and more space to serve these folks at my practice. And I would love to support the folks that you support with the emotional side of of the path that they’re walking. Right? You’re letting them know the value, right? If their clients are getting emotional support and aren’t crying in their office and are able to, like, think clearly and make good decisions and show up for their appointments and all that stuff, everybody’s better off for it, right? So it’s part of it is thinking about that. So I’m hearing that. And then you were mentioning a second step of like making business cards, so it’s easy for folks to access you. I would say that that’s something that’s like helpful but not essential in today’s day and age. I think it’s more helpful that you make good relationship with someone who’s going to be like, I know the perfect person for you. It’s Brittany, I’m going to give you her name. Here’s her website. And those people are just going to happen over their phone or like save a note in their phone and go online when they get home. And so I think in terms of like the most important tasks, it’s making those referral relationships right now. 

Brittany [00:34:16] That’s a good point. And yeah, that’s absolutely doable. 

Linzy [00:34:19] Yeah. And then after that, when people call to book, what are you going to do? 

Brittany [00:34:26] Well, I actually have a virtual assistant I started working with, so I’ll let her know as well which life changer. But aside from that, I’m going to tell them during the consultation calls or whatever, like my fee is 150, leave it at that. 

Linzy [00:34:42] Great. Good. And how does that feel to say that? 

Brittany [00:34:46] Immediately I start having questions come up like what if? What if they do have an insurance that I actually do take? What if they are all these things? 

Linzy [00:34:57] Yeah. And you also take insurance. So, you know, it could be a phrase of I take the following insurances or my out-of-pocket fee is 150. End of sentence. Right. And let that sit like I think part of what it sounds like the work that you have to do is letting people show you that they’re actually happy to pay your fee. And if they’re not happy to pay your fee at 150 and they’re not on the insurances that you take, then you know it’s not a right fit. Right. And they’ll find someone else who is the right fit. 

Brittany [00:35:23] Right. 

Linzy [00:35:24] Right. So with this Brittany, I can feel there’s more digging into to do. But we do have like this action steps for you. 

Brittany [00:35:31] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:35:32] What are you taking away from our conversation today? 

Brittany [00:35:34] A lot of confidence, actually. I was so nervous going into this as, you know, like the first thing when you were like, how are you? I was like, I’m so nervous. I’m actually feeling really confident now. I’m I’m grateful for this coaching call. Like, maybe my sessions are worth that price and maybe people will pay that money and maybe, maybe we will own a house one day. Like, I don’t know, it gives me, like, kind of hopeful energy. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:36:04] Yeah. And if there’s a part of you that’s able to, like, collect evidence, I’m going to ask that part of you to, like, collect those moments when you’re just like, in the flow in session and you’re just like, Whoa, I’m in the right place doing the right work. Like, collect that evidence and like, let the words sink in. When you do have clients, say things like, of course your fee is worth it. I think there’s a lot more evidence there than you’re probably taking into your body, but as much as possible trying to actually absorb that because I think it’s plentiful of evidence that people are very happy to pay you 150. 

Brittany [00:36:38] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:36:39] Well, thank you so much, Brittany, for coming on the podcast today. 

Brittany [00:36:42] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

Linzy [00:36:57] In my conversation with Brittany today, a familiar piece, you know, that I’ve seen in myself and so many therapists is how in a certain sense, we can underestimate our clients. Right. That like jumping too quickly, you know, saying our fee and then jumping to quickly offer the sliding scale. I know it’s something that lots of therapists do. We can really sometimes in seeing their struggles and in knowing what’s hard and sitting in that with them or knowing that we’re about to or knowing a bit of their story when we’re having those first conversations of setting the fee, It’s easy to underestimate that someone who struggles and is going through maybe a hard journey or has had losses or trauma also is someone who can solve their own problems and show up and make good decisions for their life and decide how to spend their money. Those things can coexist. And I think as therapists, because we sit so much with the vulnerability of our clients, it’s easy to forget that they also have jobs that they might be really good at and they can earn money, or they have family who can help, like they can solve problems. And when we jump in and try to solve problems for them, especially around fear, before they even name that as a problem, or you can express that they can’t solve the problem. Not only are we undercutting ourselves because this is somebody that might happily pay you your full fee and now instead you’ve negotiated a lower fee with them. But also we’re not letting them function as adults and and let us know what is possible for them and let them make an empowered decision or have a, you know, grounded conversation with us about their needs to see if we can find some sort of center point. So it’s you know, it’s a challenge I think we have as therapist because of the role that we play. But I always find it helpful to think about the resilience of our clients, think about the stories that they tell us of things that are going well, and remember that we only see such a small slice of their life and we see generally the hardest emotions and we hear the hardest stories and we don’t see all those other parts of them that sometimes are like kicking butt at life or figuring things out, you know, with great competency at the same time as they also have something that they’re they’re working through with us. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I say it all the time. I know, but I want you to hear it. If you enjoy the podcast, I would super appreciate if you could jump over to Apple Podcasts for I think it would take you literally 90 seconds and leave a review for the podcast. It is the best way for other therapists to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Julie [00:00:02] I don’t want business owners to live on leftovers because business ownership is a lot of work. It is so much work. And you deserve more than than leftovers. 

 

Linzy [00:00:13] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today I have a returning guest, but she’s returning with a book under her belt. Julie Herres has written the book Profit First for Therapists, and she’s here to talk to us about it today. She is an expert in profit. First as an accountant, she uses it with her clients who are, I think, exclusively, if not mostly therapists. She’s the founder of Green Oak Accounting, which is the country’s largest firm serving the mental health industry. She’s an accountant, she’s a consultant, she’s a speaker and now an author of Profit First for Therapists. And she’s also the host of the Therapy for Your Money podcast. So today, Julia and I got into profit first. So if you’ve heard about profit first but have been like, what is that? Or if you’re already doing profit first. Either way, there’s lots here for you. Julian I get into taxes and profit first and how that can be confusing. She goes over the basic principles of profit first, which, like really do connect to human behavior and what tends to drive us and make us tick and how we tend to respond to certain situations. She really explains why profit first works with people as they are, and we get into what to do if your numbers are not where you want them to be, where can you start to actually start to get your numbers in your business? The amount that’s going towards your paycheck and operating expenses and you’re pretty aside for taxes. How do you get from where you are now, which is maybe a place that is not working to the numbers that are actually going to work for your business? Here’s my conversation with Julie Herres. So, Julie, welcome back to the podcast. 

 

Julie [00:02:22] Hey, how are you? 

 

Linzy [00:02:23] I’m good. How are you? 

 

Julie [00:02:24] Good, good. 

 

Linzy [00:02:25] So since we spoke last, you have been a little bit busy. 

 

Julie [00:02:31] A lot of a lot of fun things in the work. 

 

Linzy [00:02:34] A lot of fun things. And one of those things is that you’ve written the book, I would say the profit first book for therapists, a profit first for therapists is coming out May 2nd. Do I have that right? 

 

Julie [00:02:46] Yeah, May 2nd it will be out. It is available for pre-sale today, but it it will be out in the world, what I call affectionately my fourth child. Profit first for for therapists. The book. 

 

Linzy [00:02:58] Yes, a very cute name for that fourth child, I have to say. Very sweet. So I’m really excited about this book because you and I are both profit first fans. We both like use it and teach it and teach therapists how to use it. And now you’ve actually put your knowledge and expertise like into a book that folks will just be able to buy and read and absorb it all, even if they never, you know, work with either of us. Yeah. Which is a beautiful gift to the world. 

 

Julie [00:03:25] I’m so excited to get this out into the world. This book was for sure a labor of love. But I. I kept going back before I started writing to Why me? Why should we want to write this book? Like, why would I? And then. But the answer was like, It has to be me. That was my answer to myself. Like I have so much knowledge from implementing over and over again. Like I want to get this information out into the world because it’s so transformational for so many practices. It gave me changing completely. 

 

Linzy [00:03:56] So, yes, yes, I love that because you as an accountant, you really like get the rules and the system. But you specialize in working with therapists. So you also really see how this applies to like our business model and who therapists tend to be as people. 

 

Julie [00:04:10] Yeah, definitely. And obviously I’m an accountant based in the US, but I, I also knew, you know, this book is so important. I need to put all the basics of profit first. I need you to put like the very therapy-specific items in there. But I also knew that most practitioners needed other stuff too. Yeah. So I talk about scaling, I talk about hiring admin team member, clinical team members, leadership. I talk about the emotional side of profit first and kind of that journey that people go through. But I also included some tax basics because these are the things that I feel like people need. Yeah, So whether they’re ready for them right now or later, like you kind of have everything you need for the financial side of your practice within that one book. 

 

Linzy [00:04:49] So exciting. Okay, so which I take two steps back because we’re nerding it about something we’re excited about, but what is profit first for folks who are listening, who are not familiar with it? 

 

Julie [00:04:59] Yes, so profit first. The original book was written in 2016/17 by Mike Michalowitz. It’s the the premise of profit first that the whole system. Right. It’s ultimately a financial system for cash management. What profit first does is it turns the accounting equation upside down. So if anyone has ever looked at a profit and loss or an income statement, which hopefully listener if you own a business, you have you have hopefully looked at the accounting equation on the profit and losses. Income minus expenses equals profit, right? That is the basic accounting equation. What profit first does is it turns that equation upside down where we look at income minus profit equals your expenses. And so that one shift right there, carving out the profit first, as the name implies, means that then instead of taking the profit at the end, as the left over whatever’s left, that’s going to be the profit. You’re being intentional about allocating funds to profit and then whatever’s left, that’s where you have to run your business. And so for most practitioners, if you can run your business on $1,000, you probably can run your business on $950, right? If we carve it out at the front. But if you just wait for that to be left, that’s not always the case. 

 

Linzy [00:06:17] Yes. Yeah. And I love that the flipping of the equation, you know, and this is Mike’s kind of this is the idea he introduced into accounting because I have I’ve noticed as a business owner and maybe even experience this to Julie like it is so easy to spend money in your business. So there’s just something about our business. It’s like something about, well, you’re spending to make money. Like I will think about buying things in my business that I would really pause or never buy out of my personal household. There is something just very easy about spending money in a business, which means if we don’t have boundaries around it, we can end up spending so much that we end up taking very little home like the profit we end up getting like the crumbs. Yes. 

 

Julie [00:07:00] Yeah. And that’s why I like the term leftovers where it’s kind of because it’s not intent. The flipped over is not intentional. It just happens to be there. Right? Right. It’s kind of an accident. Like, oh, we made too much soup today. Now we have leftovers. Like, it’s not that. That’s not- I don’t want business owners to live on leftovers because this ownership is a lot of work. It is all it is so much work. And you deserve more than than leftovers. I like to tell the story of my my mother was a serial entrepreneur, loved just the starting of a business. And so what I know now as an adult is when she would say like, Oh, you know, Julie, you’ve got to spend money to make money. She was about to buy something she could not afford. That typically was kind of the the Q in our household. So whenever I find myself like, oh saying that where you got to spend money to make money, I kind of go back and think to myself, Am I just saying that to justify this expense or is this actually going to have an ROI, a return on investment? Like, does this actually make sense? Because I agree it’s easy. It’s easy in the business to justify like you do have to make investments, but not every investment is worth your money. 

 

Linzy [00:08:05] Absolutely. Yes. So okay, so profit first, then flips that equation. 

 

Julie [00:08:10] Right? 

 

Linzy [00:08:10] We’re no longer profits, no longer the leftover. Now, expenses are the thing that is more boundary metered. I don’t know how to describe that. 

 

Julie [00:08:18] Boundary does- is a good is a good way to put it so that there are four core principles within profit first and I think if I go over those that then the leftover piece will make a little bit more sense. But core principle number one is you use a small plate. And so I will be the first to say I’m not a nutrition expert, I’m a financial. But there are a lot of similarities in the way that humans make decisions about money and about food, Right? Because it’s not about like the big sweeping decision of, you know, I’m going to spend less than I make. Right. That’s easy to say. But the proof is in the pudding. Of all the hundreds of micro-decisions that you make every single day. So that’s ultimately how people make decisions about money. And so I know for me, I was born in the generation of finish your plate. So whether I eat from a large play or a small plate, I’m most likely going to finish my plate unless I spend a whole lot of mental energy thinking about it, right? Deciding like, am I finishing the vegetable or that or the protein or What am I leaving? How much do they have? One more bite that takes a lot of mental energy for me. And so I just know when I eat from a smaller plate, I’m naturally going to eat less. And so within profit, first those smaller plates are bank accounts. We use multiple bank accounts to create smaller plates for ourselves. Yeah. So those bank accounts are going to be, for example, an income account where all the money comes into the business, coming into the business, goes into that income account, then we have a profit account, as you can imagine, right? That where there’s money earmarked for profit, then we have an account for operating expenses. That’s all the things like liability insurance, dues and subscriptions, software. Then we have an account earmarked for owner’s pay. That’s how much the owner pays themselves, right? That’s super important. Then we have an account earmarked for tax as well, where the business is able to pay taxes on your behalf. And then last but not least, an account for payroll as well. So I’m a firm believer if you have a team, that you should have a separate payroll account. So whether that’s contractors or employees, admin, clinical, whatever, a payroll account can be really helpful. So by separating that money onto those smaller plates, that really helps us see the how much is actually available for you to spend. So you’re not accidentally spending next quarter’s tax payment or you’re spending the money that’s actually earmarked for payroll next week. Right. So you know what actually is available to you. 

 

Linzy [00:10:46] Yes. Yeah. And the word for me for profit first, always with those separate accounts is clarifying. Yes. It’s just so clarifying. And even if you don’t like what you see, at first, it’s just very clear what money is actually for what. And even if you want to steal from yourself or do it differently, you’re it’s very clear that that is what you are doing when you do have your money actually separated like this. 

 

Julie [00:11:08] Absolutely. Like you can- because most humans will will look at their bank app on their phone right. Like or log in on the computer. That’s how most people do things, including me. Right? I’m an accountant and I don’t look at the profit and loss of balance sheet, the statement of cash flow, before I decide if I can spend something right. So you’re taking a natural human behavior and you’re just leveraging that instead of trying to change it. 

 

Linzy [00:11:29] Yes. 

 

Julie [00:11:29] So principle number two is you serve sequentially, right? So you have all of those bank accounts on a regular basis. You’re going to move money from that income account to the other bank accounts. And you’re doing that in a way that is sequential. We tend to attribute importance to things that happen first. So. The profit allocation comes first when you’re making transfers to those accounts without necessarily looking at your bills or what is due. So that because your bank is going to your bank accounts are going to tell you something, they’re going to give you information when you go to pay those bills. Principle number three. So we remove temptation. And this one, I feel like is really important. They’re all important. But this one, this one is. I can’t tell you as as an accountant, like, how many times I’ve encountered a client who cannot pay their tax bill. Right. Where they- we get to April. And it’s just not it’s just not doable. They maybe someone that just started their business just came to us like maybe in February or March, like the year is already over and we’re doing their tax prop 8, and they owe, you know, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on the size of a business. Yeah. And it is always I always have a pit in my stomach when I see someone who just is blindsided by that because it just doesn’t have to be that way. Right. And and so by moving that money over, by having allocation, by having a separate bank account, it’s really, really hard to accidentally spend that money. Right. It’s there. It’s allocated. I know some of our clients will call that bank account, like Uncle Sam’s money or, you know, something just funny. But you clearly know when you’re looking at your bank. Yeah, there’s money in there that is not yours, that is already someone else’s who you cannot and should not spend it. And it’s such an anchoring thought, but there’s also so much relief when you get to that time of the year and you already have enough money to pay everything like that. That’s the the opposite end of that, where we remove the temptation to accidentally spend that money accidentally or on purpose. But and it’s there to take care of you. And I love that piece of, of profit first as well. 

 

Linzy [00:13:46] Yeah. 

 

Julie [00:13:47] And then last but not least, principle number four is you enforce a rhythm, right? So kind of like going back to nutrition. You do have to eat on a regular basis or you’re going to be starving. You might not make the best food choices, or at least that that’s how I operate. Yes. And so on a regular basis. Right. Your money, your business needs money to survive. It’s like the nutrition for your business. And so on a regular basis, you have to feed it and give it money. And so on a regular basis, you’re moving money from your income account to your other accounts. And for a lot of our clients, we recommend starting with a weekly transfer. And that’s not part of the core profit first principles, right? That that in the in the original book that was twice a month on the 10th and the 25th and I think that can work really well. But what I kept seeing over and over again in implementation is unless you have enough money to really fund those accounts upfront, it’s really hard to make it to four weeks without making a transfer. It’s already hard to do one week sometimes when you’re starting from a tight cash flow. So I find that that weekly allocation is really helpful from a… Ease of implementation, right? Really, it’s just a little easier to implement. I also think there’s something really amazing about making transfers on a weekly basis, because if you do it, for example, every Friday, you get a really good sense of the ebb and flow of money in your business, right? You know, every Friday I’m expecting to see this dollar amount. Yeah. If that’s not there, you can start troubleshooting right away instead of if it’s buried in, you know, your credit card payment and your rent and this and that. Like, it could take weeks longer for you to figure out that there is a problem. Whereas if you’re making a transfer every week, you really get to see that. And then after a while, like once you really have a sense of the ebb and flow, then you can sometimes move to every other week or twice a month, right? Like that is a natural progression where you don’t need to be looking quite as closely, but by doing it weekly, I feel like it really gives practitioners a true sense of comfort with their money. And it’s really not a time-consuming process. It usually takes ten, 10 to 15 minutes is generous. Like, yeah, I think five for most people in. 

 

Linzy [00:15:53] Mine is five, five for sure. 

 

Julie [00:15:55] I would say mine is five also. I see 15 just to give like, oh yeah, yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:15:58] Let’s just, you know, give a buffer. 

 

Julie [00:16:00] But I would agree five, five of the time. 

 

Linzy [00:16:03] I’m right with you in the weekly. I also like first is one of the options we give in Money Skills For Therapists in terms of budgeting systems and I find most therapists do choose it because it is so powerful but also simple at the same time. But I also recommend weekly and for additional reasons to what you’re saying. What I also find is if folks have a very kind of unbalanced relationship with money where they either avoid it or they want to touch it all the time, a week is like a nice middle ground amount. Like it’s it’s close enough together that like if you did your- because you know, I also suggested folks like preference allocations might go with general money time too of just like looking at your numbers getting in touch if you do it every week it’s like recent enough that you remember what happened last week. If you’re building new skills, they’re available enough that you can make to build your confidence. But it’s not so long that you start to build up like avoidance or fear. Because what I do find is sometimes when folks are like, Oh, I just do it like once a month, then that can build up into this big phobia and it’s like, you can’t remember how to do it. It’s like, Wait, do I pull from this bank or do I get this in for. And here like I just saw and there’s something in about once a week that’s a really nice rhythm to just keep you in touch with your money. Just enough on top of all those other great reasons that you just gave for weekly disbursements. 

 

Julie [00:17:17] And weekly is often enough that you shouldn’t have to move money in between with monthly. Like if something comes up, you have a bigger than usual credit card bill or something. You might have to go in and then off cycle. And that that kind of has a trickle down effect too. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:17:33] Yes. Yeah. Great. So principles do we. Let’s summarize them.  

 

Julie [00:17:37] We covered all four. Yeah. So use a small plate- principle number one. Serve sequentially is number two. Number three is remove temptation. Yes. And then number four, enforce a rhythm. 

 

Linzy [00:17:48] Yes. Beautiful. Okay. So you know something that I see Julie, with profit first and you probably see this with your clients, too, is taxes can be a really confusing part of profit first for multiple reasons. So what are your thoughts on taxes and profit first for folks who are listening? 

 

Julie [00:18:07] Yeah, so that’s probably where we get the most questions, like in an open Q&A type of forum. So taxes within, you know, within the book, profit first for therapist. We do have tax applications for various stages of private practice. And I want to be super clear that taxes do change as the practice grows. So I go over four stages or four sizes of private practice, and that’s based on just the data that we’ve accumulated over the years. So we have different ratios for solo practices where it’s just obviously just a single clinician. Yeah, then a small group practice and that’s where there is perhaps a very small team, but the owner is typically doing 50% or more of the clinical work in that small group. Okay. That’s right. That’s kind of the that’s a defining. That’s a defining period. Okay. Yeah. So usually maybe one full-timer, two or three part-timers. Right. Something along those lines that we go to, medium group practice where that’s that happens right around that switch rate of more than 50% of the work is being done by other people to raise the ratios shift at that point. And then for a large group practice, which usually happens around $1,000,000 or more, the main defining piece at that point is the addition of leadership. Mm hmm. Usually by the time you get there, there’s 8 to 10 clinicians. Getting just too much for one single owner to manage. So there’s addition of leadership role. So those are kind of the that’s the 10,000 foot view of of the size of private practice. And so as the practice grows naturally, the profit margin gets smaller, right? And sometimes I see that people are like, Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Why? 

 

Linzy [00:19:42] That’s not what I want. 

 

Julie [00:19:43] That’s not- yeah, I wanted to get a bigger. Dollar amount gets bigger, but the profit margin gets smaller because more and more people other than you, the owner, are doing the work in the business. So as a solo practice owner, for example, you’re the only one doing the work we can reasonably expect. Your owners pay to be 30 to 60% of everything you bring in, right? That’s reasonable. So then there’s tax, then there’s profit operating expenses. But as you get to, let’s say, large group practice, over million dollars in revenue, we usually assign between five and 10% to owners pay. So much, much lower because there’s probably ten clinicians. You have to pay those ten clinicians to do the work, right, andn the piece of the- so it’s just a bigger pie, it’s a smaller piece of a bigger pie is how that happens. So for a solo practice, for example, we usually look for a tax allocation somewhere between five and 35%. It’s a really big range. 

 

Linzy [00:20:38] A big range. 

 

Julie [00:20:39] That’s a really big range because people have very different tax situations. We often see someone starting a solo practice as a side gig where they also already have, for example, full time job and then they’re starting as a side gig. So they may not be making a whole lot of money. Their profit margin may not be huge. So sometimes 5% can be can be enough. There are other cases where you do need a full 35% because you’re the only breadwinner in the household. You have to account for federal tax, state tax, self-employment tax in the U.S.. Right. All three of those. So that’s kind of why we see that that range. There are some fringe cases where you might even need more if you’re in a high income household, for example, where you know, you have a spouse already bringing up the household into a high tax bracket that could create a need for more. So so the ratios I’m talking about are kind of what most people will fall under. Then as you move to a small group that might move to 5 to 25% rates already, that got lower because the- you’re again you’re paying clinicians, right. You’re doing 50% of the work but like there’s clinicians to pay and then as we move to a medium and a large group, usually we see allocation tax allocations between five and 15%. For both of those, that typically is going to be enough. And again, because you’re getting just a smaller piece of that bigger pie, right? In a large group practice, usually at least 50% of the money that comes in is going right back out to clinician wages and sometimes even more. So once we allocate for all of those items, there’s just a lot less left. Right. 

 

Linzy [00:22:14] And because in this case, like when you’re talking about taxes here, you’re talking about just the owners taxes. Is that correct? Yes. 

 

Julie [00:22:23] Yes, that’s correct. So we’re talking we’re not talking about like employee payroll taxes. Right. So when I talk about employee the payroll allocation in that, for me, I include wages, payroll tax and benefits in. Yes. Yes. Right. So wages, payroll tax and benefits. So when we talk about tax in the U.S., again, like most private practices are pass through entities. And so that means that the the business itself does not pay tax at the federal level, rather, the profit flows through to the personal tax return where it is then taxed. Right. So so technically, the business does not pay tax, but it pays tax on behalf of the owner. And so then there’s always federal tax depending on the situation and the tax entity, self-employment tax as well. And then depending on the state again, state tax. Right. So just like you in Canada have provincial tax, I think all provinces have tax rate. 

 

Linzy [00:23:16] I believe so, yes. 

 

Julie [00:23:17] Yeah. So most states in the United States have have a state tax as well with some, some do not. And so that you know, in that case, there’s no tax. 

 

Linzy [00:23:24] It’s a wide range. 

 

Julie [00:23:25] It’s a very wide range. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:23:27] And something with the with taxes and profit first. And this is a mistake that I see folks make. And I wonder if you see people making this like with profit first, you’re getting your tax percentage based on all the money coming in the door. Yes. Right. Not just what you’re getting paid in terms of what you said in your like your allocation percentages. Could you speak to that a little more? Because I think folks can get really confused of like what number are they’re getting? Are they applying their tax number to or where does their tax number come from? 

 

Julie [00:23:53] Yeah, that’s a really good point. So when you implement profit first, all the money coming into the business goes into that income account. Right. So that is ultimately your your gross income or close to it. All right. GROSS income is that income before you take out expenses. So then on your profit and loss or your tax return, your net income – your profit – that is ultimately what gets taxed, right? So you’re going to pay a percentage of that. So when we do a profit first allocation, we look at all the dollars coming in and then we’re going to allocate some to each category, each bank account, basically. Right? So of all the dollars coming in for solo practice, 5 to 35% of that is going to get allocated to tax. Some of that is going to get allocated to owners pay. Some of it is going to be allocated to operating expenses. And so just because you’re you’re saving, for example, 20% of your gross income for taxes doesn’t mean that your tax bracket is 20% rate is probably higher than that. But you have deductions that are legally allowed. You’re not taxed on your gross income, you’re taxed on your profit. And so that’s where it gets a little bit. That’s where it gets a little bit confusing. So we’re saving based on the gross income, and that’s why that number might be a lower than your actual tax bracket. 

 

Linzy [00:25:12] And that like when I first read Profit First years ago, that was the equation that for some reason took so long to get into my head. Like whenever I went to do it, I was like, Wait, what is that equation again? Like to turn your tax rate, like your effective tax rate, Like, let’s say I talk to my accountant, they’re like, okay, well, you know, because of what you make, you should be saving 28% for taxes. You don’t put 28% though, into your profit first calculator or allocations. Right. It’s a lower number. And I know for me that equation, which now I have in the course as a lesson, took a long time to like click into place. But this is where I see folks like sometimes on therapist Facebook groups and stuff, Julie, like this is a mistake that I see them making sometimes where they’re like, Well, my tax rate is 30%, and so I save 30% of everything coming in the door. Can you just clarify and speak to like why that is? Yeah, what what doesn’t work about that? 

 

Julie [00:26:02] If I mean, if that’s the case, then great. Right. You’re probably saving too much. And I think that’s a better problem than the opposite of saving not enough. 

 

Linzy [00:26:09] True story. 

 

Julie [00:26:10] But like, okay, let’s just use round number. So if $100,000 is coming in and you’re saving 30%, that means you’ll have $30,000 saved for taxes, right? Yes. But let’s say you have 25,000 in operating expenses, which is very doable. Right? Very reasonable to expect. So that means your actual your taxable income is not a hundred thousand. It’s hundred -$25,000 of expenses. 75,000. Yeah. So now you’ve saved almost 50% of your actual taxable income. So good problem to have. But that’s why I can feel like this is really hard. Yeah, it’s hard because it’s so. It’s more than you actually need. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:26:45] Yeah, it’s hard because you’re over saving. 

 

Julie [00:26:47] You’re over saving. Yeah. When someone asks about tax, that is our client that we’re we’re working directly in their books, I would say number one, like, obviously your accountant was always going to have the most accurate answer. Right. Because they can look at your whole tax situation. They can look at your tax return, your credits, you have rental income. We like all the all the pieces that come through and take that into account. So that’s number one. But if you’re not able to do that in the U.S., we have a form called the 1040 ES that’s for estimate. So you can use that form to estimate your quarterly estimate in terms of the seven-page form. Most people look at it in like, oh, no or no, no, I might not be doing that. So that is kind of your next best option. Then after that, if you’re not willing to quote, go, go down that road. You can also take your pull out your tax return to the 1040. Look at the first two pages. Look at the total tax that’s usually on the second page. And divide that by your gross income adjusted – AGI, adjusted gross income. And that’s going to say like, okay, this is your ultimately your tax rate. You can also. So that’s going to give you a piece of information, right, That if you saved that of your gross income, that’s going to be too much like we just talked about. But it still gives you a data point. Yeah. Or you can also look at your total tax if you’re making a very similar amount this year. Like, you can that can be the number that you plug in to your profit first instant assessment, right? Like that’s the dollar amount that you need ultimately to pay in taxes. And so you can look at that. Then your total tax as a percentage of all the income that you bring in and calculate it that way. Great. 

 

Linzy [00:28:22] Yeah. Yeah. So so helpful tips there. If folks, if you’re feeling unsure about your tax bracket, Julie just gave us some good information there. Seven-page form, if you like forms, that form is out there for you. Which form is that again? Julie,  1040ES. Okay. Yes. Or you can look at your tax return. Calculate those numbers. Look at how much you paid in tax. Divide that by your annual gross income, AGI. 

 

Julie [00:28:45] Adjusted gross income. 

 

Linzy [00:28:46] Adjusted gross income. There you go. Or talk to your accountant. Yeah, because accountants, you know, they love us. And especially we were talking about this a little bit before we start recording. Like in Canada, you don’t file based on your spouse’s income, like you pay taxes separately. So that’s not in the picture. But in the U.S., if you are married and if you’re filing jointly, like your spouse’s income is also in the picture, you and your accountant would be able to like actually look at all of that context and give you probably the most accurate number, I would guess. 

 

Julie [00:29:13] Yeah, they’ll they’ll get you pretty pretty darn close. 

 

Linzy [00:29:16] Usually I’m pretty darn close is all you need to be. 

 

Julie [00:29:18] Yeah, it doesn’t have to be. Done is better than perfect in this case, right? When you’re paying or saving for taxes, I’d rather you have a little bit of money left over in your tax account if possible. Than nothing. But close is better than nothing. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:29:32] So when would you say is the best time to start using profit versus like, if folks are listening? People listening are going to be at different stages of business. Some of them maybe haven’t even started yet, but they’re thinking about starting or some have started, but maybe they’re making like a few hundred bucks, you know, a week with their first few clients, whereas other folks are more established. Like, what do you think is the right time to actually roll out profit first in your business? 

 

Julie [00:29:52] So I would say May 2nd is a good time because the book will be available to you. 

 

Linzy [00:30:01] That’s the moment. 

 

Julie [00:30:02] So I joke about that, but there’s a Chinese proverb that says the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. So I think starting where you are today is always a good idea. I get asked all the time like, can I start profit first as I start my business? And the answer is absolutely yes, right after your initial investment. You can you can start profit first. So let’s say you’re starting your practice and saying like I have a $2500 budget, right? Like I’m contributing personal funds to start this practice that you would not put your profit first with because that’s not income. You just put all of that in your operating expenses account. But then as dollars as the first dollar starts coming into the practice, you absolutely can start allocating to all of those. And then as an established business, in most cases you can you can start it at any point. It doesn’t have to be the end of the year or the end of the quarter. Like there’s it’s always a good time to take control of your money, in my opinion. There’s actually a handful of times that I think you should not start profit first. And I think I may be a little controversial there, but I think if you are not ready to actually spend some time looking at your money, you should not start it because having five accounts is not going to help. Five or six accounts. If money is so tight in your business that you’re regularly bouncing payments. Yeah, I personally think this is not the time to start splitting your money into five. Yeah, it’s just going to make that harder. I still think there’s a lot to be benefited from the book because we do talk about paying down debt, for example, and then getting your expenses under control. But I think that needs to happen before you actually start implementing right before you start moving 1% to profit. Yeah, you need to get that under control where you’re not bouncing payments, Right. So something structurally needs to change there. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:31:50] Okay. And so and for folks who do feel ready to tackle and they’re like, yeah, no, I do want to actually try to apply this, but things have been really tight in their practice or, you know, they they’re maybe their numbers they’re going to find that they’re out of. Islands that they’re like paying themselves too much or not saving enough for taxes. What about those cases where you go to look at people first and you’re like, Oh, no, these numbers that I’m supposed to be is like not even close to where I am. What do you suggest to folks in those situations? 

 

Julie [00:32:18] Yeah, well, so I think one of the beauties of profit first is that it actually encourages you to start where you are today. Right. So when you do the instant assessment and anyone who’s either pre-ordering the book or ordering it will have access to that on, you know, on our website at the instant assessment. You actually start your first quarter, you start implementing profit first at your current locations exactly where you are today, because just the act of moving your money from one big account to five or six bank accounts, that’s enough. Change now is going to just allow you to see the ebb and flow of the money and start making changes, right. To say, Oh, well, maybe I don’t need this anymore, let’s cut that piece. So that actually is encouraged to not make huge amounts of change right away, because if you try to go from 0% profit to 10% profit overnight, I think you basically need to change everything in your business. That’s really, really hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so even if you’re not where you want to be, that’s okay, because profit first will give you the kind of the map to get there. 

 

Linzy [00:33:17] And I like that. And I think, you know, that spirit is in the original profit first book and I love that you carry that and I’m sure that’s that’s in your book as well, because I think that something that therapists experience often is, you know, it’s like you’ll talk to a financial person or go listen to a finance podcast. They’re like, Just do it this way. This is the right way. So you just need to do this. Like I saw a financial advisor once and she was just like, You just need to spend a lot less money. I’m like, Okay, Oh, like, how can you figure out how to make this work better? But it’s like, there’s no how do I say this? Like it’s such a hard way to approach money. And like, often people end up doing it just like throw their hands up in the air and be like, okay, well, apparently I just suck at this and I can’t do it. Whereas like that softness of being like, okay, start where you are now and then start to slowly move towards where you want to be is so much more human and so much more compassionate and also just is much more likely to actually give you success. Right. Because as you say, like in your business, if you find your numbers aren’t where they want them to be, you’re going to need to change a lot of things. And you can’t change those things overnight. But if you let it be a gradual process of moving your numbers towards where you want them to be, you know, then you’re moving at a pace of actually being able to like make changes that make sense, integrate those changes, feel out what’s right, and then, you know, you’ll still get there. But you’re maybe moving things like what do you suggest like 1% of the time, 2% of the time each month? Yeah. What’s the piece that you find works for people? 

 

Julie [00:34:43] So I recommend either a four-quarter or eight-quarter rollout. So depending on how far you have to go, once in a blue moon, we have a client who just really wants to kick it into high gear and they instead of four quarters, they do four months. But still you have a clear sense of like this is this is, what I- the change I need to make this month. So usually based on that, it’s plus 1%/ -1%, right. Because they all your allocations ultimately have to equal 100%. Yes. Because because math you know so you’re making small one, one and a half percent change each quarter ultimately, because that gives you it’s kind of a, you know, a little stepping stool where you get to like, okay, this is our new place. Like, so now we have to tighten our belts a little bit more. Where does that come from? Right, right. I want to pay myself more. So something has to come right down here. Right? 

 

Linzy [00:35:31] So it’s like operating expenses go down 1%, your paycheck goes up 1%. And like, there’s that that dance that happens. 

 

Julie [00:35:38] Yeah. And really profit is is not an event. It’s a habit. It’s not just something that happens on paper at the end of the year. And so this is a little bit like, going back to nutrition, it’s like you’re trying to change everything all at once. It’s like a crash diet. Yes. You’re just trying it. You’re so far off from where you are in a way that’s sustainable long term that it doesn’t often doesn’t last. But if you’re just making those small incremental changes like walking 20 minutes or eating a little bit less. Right. Like those are the changes that long term can be sustained. So that is the goal with profit first, like you’re not trying to change everything all at once. It’s really hard. It’s not doable in many businesses. So you’re just making small incremental changes and they become habits. 

 

Linzy [00:36:22] Yeah, I love that. That’s a very a very human, very human way. I’m approaching these numbers. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited about this book. I’m so excited that you wrote this book that you have your fourth child coming out in the world. So if folks are wanting to preorder the book and just wanting to be able to follow along and be more in your world, tell it. Tell them where to find you. 

 

Julie [00:36:48] Absolutely. Well, and we do have a special giveaway for your listeners if they go to profit first for therapist dot com slash linzy, they will be able to find our calculator to reverse engineer your practice. Your. So this is a we haven’t really we didn’t talk about this today. But when you want your practice to give you a certain amount, like how how do you get there so you can get that calculator there. You can also preorder the book depending on when you’re you’re listening. I’ll get access to the tools as well. And if you’re listening, after May 2nd, you can just order it and you’ll get it within a couple of days. 

 

Linzy [00:37:27] Wonderful. And as a fan of tools and calculators, I’m very excited to see that tool. So thank you. So. And so it’s profit versus for therapist dot com slash linzy. And Linzy – for folks listening – is L I N Z Y. Because my name often confuses people’s brains like just a little bit. Julie thank you. Thank you. And congratulations. I’m so, so happy to have had you here today. 

 

Julie [00:37:52] Thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:38:07] I so appreciate Julie coming on the podcast today and it was really nice to to get like that refresher in private first in the principles that make it work. You know, like there’s just so much human nature that I think a system like profit first and you don’t have to follow it to the tee by any means. But there’s so much human nature that having a system like that addresses. I’m a big fan of this idea of build systems that are smarter than you are. And that’s not to say that we’re dum dums because we are definitely not. But as humans we have natural vulnerabilities and then as people we have our own additional vulnerabilities or behaviors that we need to set up systems that are going to stop us from doing the things that ultimately hurt us. So, for instance, if you’re someone who tends to steal from yourself, you tend to look at money and be like, That’s probably fine. I’m just going to take this and buy the shiny thing or sign up for this course when I’m already in five other courses and have no bandwidth. But this is exciting looking, you know, if you have that tendency to overspend, then the principle of profit first, where it’s like you have those smaller plates, you can actually see what money there is to use for operating expenses. When you’re going to make those kinds of decisions tends to make us just more thoughtful in how we spend. And I like that plate analogy, but I also like the analogy that’s in the original profit first book of tube of toothpaste. Like when we first get a tube of toothpaste, we’re like, we go nuts with toothpaste and you can put like an inch of toothpaste on your brush because you have so much toothpaste. And we tend to be very liberal. But when you get to the bottom of that tube of toothpaste, you’re like squeezing super hard to get out just like the smallest little, you know, pea sized drop of toothpaste and like, that’s enough. And you make it work and you still brush your teeth and everything still works, but you’re using much less. And that is natural human nature. So when we create those natural boundaries around our money, we tend to use it better, use it smarter because we’re giving ourselves boundaries. People do well with boundaries. So I loved going over that with Julie today, so excited about her book. If you do want to pre buy her book or buy her book, depending on when you’re listing and also get that great freebie, that reverse engineering tool for our listeners. It’s profit first for therapist dot com slash linzy. Linzy is L I N Z Y. You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for people to find the podcast and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Annie [00:00:01] I’m hanging out still with people who share my values. My friends are still asking the same questions. I think that’s a good question for us to ask themselves is what would those values be that we would be afraid that we would step into? And are we living in a community with people who would question us if we were starting to shift into values that are like really inauthentic to us? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. Today’s guest is Annie Schuessler. Annie’s a business coach and she’s also the host of the Rebel Therapist podcast. With her rebel therapist programs, she’s all about helping therapists, healers, and coaches make an impact beyond traditional private practice. Today, Annie and I got into investing in your business, what it feels like to launch and like, put yourself out there and be in the middle of something. We talked about money and her increased ability to earn because of like the big work that she does now, the scaled business that she’s built, how her relationship to money has changed and not changed. If you’re curious about building something beyond private practice, this is going to be a great episode for you. Annie and I have some pretty honest conversations during this episode about what it feels like to have a bigger brand and to not be a therapist anymore and have a brand that is based more on like launching and bringing people into your program at certain times and being seen and money coming in in chunks like these are kind of some of the maybe more challenging parts of having a business that is beyond private practice, but also is, I think, an amplification in a lot of ways of what all of us struggle with at all stages of business, whether it’s just starting out in private practice or having a larger private practice. What we talking about today in terms of the challenges around those negative stories that can come up and the fears about money happen at every level. They just kind of get bigger. When your business gets bigger, those fears can also get bigger. Great conversation today. Here is my conversation with Annie Schuessler. So Annie, welcome to the podcast. 

Annie [00:02:44] Thanks, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:02:45] We were just talking before we start recording that. It’s nice to see each other again because we connected for a chat last year at some point. Yeah, and we’ve been wanting to do it again and now we’re doing it and recording at the same time. So this is like a treat for us as well as a podcast episode. 

Annie [00:03:01] I just get excited to talk to you and, you know, connect with your brain. It’s so fun. Thank you. 

Linzy [00:03:08] I was just saying to you, like we’ve not had on the podcast yet, too much discussion about like the real nitty gritty of like expanding and scaling and going beyond therapy, which I know is something that lots of therapists think about. And certainly lots of folks that I work with or listen to the podcast, I’m sure have had at least a fantasy of, you know, expanding, growing, doing something beyond therapy. And so I’m excited to have you here because this is the space that you live in now. Am I correct about that? 

Annie [00:03:40] Yeah, that’s completely my jam is helping people create their programs beyond private practice, so not really within their therapy license, but in addition or sometimes even a replacement of having a private practice. 

Linzy [00:03:59] Now, you no longer practice as a clinician, is that correct? 

Annie [00:04:03] That’s right. 

Linzy [00:04:03] Yes. And I am in the same boat. I am curious, do you still have your license now? 

Annie [00:04:09] No, I let it go. 

Linzy [00:04:12] You don’t. Okay! Nice! 

Annie [00:04:12] Yeah, that was a moment. 

Linzy [00:04:13] Yeah, I bet it. 

Annie [00:04:15] Because it was time to either renew or let it go. And I really thought about. Hmm. What part of me wants to renew this or keep this? And what part of me is ready or wanting to let it go? Yeah. And so I took that leap of faith and just recycled it. 

Linzy [00:04:40] You didn’t just let it go. 

Annie [00:04:42] How about you? 

Linzy [00:04:43] I do still have my license. Only because it’s also only $300. Yeah. And so there is like, there is an equation there for me of, like, the $300 to just be like, Yeah, fine. Here’s my renewal money versus the energy and bandwidth to investigate what happens if I do let it lapse? And what would be the process of like getting it again. And so for me, it’s been completely just based on like a time, you know, time for money equation. Yeah. It just hasn’t made sense yet to let it go because I’m like, I’m not sure if I really understand the full implications of letting this go yet, but yeah, I haven’t practiced in a couple of years. I just, I’m like an MSW in name, but not in practice at this point. So I’m just like, Yeah, yeah, sure. I’m doing professional development. Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap. Renew. Yeah, that’s where I am at this point. But I- you’re inspiring me a little bit because I do feel like that’s a- it’s a statement. It’s a move, right? To say like, I’m actually just going to let go of this piece of paper that has defined me and bound me in certain ways for so long and just pursue something different, like outside of those bounds. 

Annie [00:05:50] Yeah. And feeling sure that I really wouldn’t want to go back. 

Linzy [00:05:57] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so for folks who are who are listening, I mean, I know for me, part of growing my practice beyond therapy or going, I should say, part of growing my business beyond my practice. Starting to move out of that space did involve having to make some big moves. Right. And making some investments. And I know that’s something that folks – especially if folks already have anxiety around money or lack of confidence around money – can really struggle with to know when and where do you invest as you are thinking about building out these things. What are your thoughts on how do you figure out what to invest in as you’re thinking about growing your business? 

Annie [00:06:38] So for me, it’s been in stages. At different stages, different investments made a lot of sense. Yeah. So right now, like I just re-upped with a business coach who has a $9,000 package that works really well for me. And it wasn’t a very big deal to make that decision. I know that I’m going to get at least $9000 back from what I do with her, and I wouldn’t sign up if I thought I was just going to get $9000 back. 

Linzy [00:07:12] Right. Yes. 

Annie [00:07:15] But I’m confident. I’m completely confident I’ll make that $9000 back. And I feel like, considering what I want to put into it, I’m going to probably get ten times that. Back, and that’s really important to me. Yeah, but in the beginning I would not. It would have been a terrible idea to start with that coach. Right. Like the stages have really been different for me and I feel like for me and I think for a lot of folks in the first stages, it’s really important to first just get clear on what do you want to create and who do you want to create it for and to start there. And so if business coaching, like working with a business coach, is going to help you get really clear on those things: who is this for and what do I want to create and how can I get out of my own way to really make those things happen? Then that can be well worth the investment. And sometimes I see people wanting to invest in things where I’m like, Oh, I don’t think it’s the right time for that. Yeah. So things like branding. Sometimes people start with branding first. 

Linzy [00:08:33] Yes. 

Annie [00:08:34] And I’m like, Oh my God, that money you’re spending, it will be so much better spent once you have the, like, what and who stuff really figured out, Right? Then you’ll be able to do some really magical branding work with someone.  

Linzy [00:08:50] So true. It’s right thing, right time. Yeah. Like, there’s so many. At some point, almost everything is important, but it’s like, is it important right now? And what do you think it is about branding? Because this is a common one I hear folks who support people who are helping to scale and grow talk about is like there is something very compelling about branding or that like beautiful website, you know, the $15,000 or $20,000 website. What do you think it is about that that like pulls folks in at the very beginning of this work that they’re doing? 

Annie [00:09:19] I wonder if it’s partly because it’s what we can see so easily. So we can see what someone’s website looks like. We can see how many followers someone has on Instagram. So some of these more visible things might kind of pull us in first because we think, Well, that’s what a successful business looks like. And actually, a lot of successful businesses have sales pages on Google Docs actually like run through mostly referrals, and they’re not very visibly glamorous and they’re making a really good living behind the scenes. So I think it’s partly just that misconception that started. 

Linzy [00:10:02] Like this is what success looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly something that I have experienced is like a lot of the work of building something is this kind of like behind the scenes unglamorous working through building something, feeling it out, information, interviews, all of these things that are not very sexy and don’t have a nice color scheme. But those are the things that actually allow you to answer the questions you were just talking about there. Right. Like the who and the what. There’s a lot of kind of sorting through that has to happen there before you can even start to think about what your brand might be. And I will say too, I think also at the beginning, like there’s also a good chance you’re going to pivot and you’re going to serve those people and be like, Oh, actually, never mind, that was a mistake and end up doing something different. So when we do all this like branding around something that isn’t solid yet, there’s also the risk that we’re going to end up having a completely different business in two years and the branding is not going to be relevant anymore. 

Annie [00:11:03] That’s really likely. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:05] Yeah. 

Annie [00:11:06] That also makes me think of the when we think about branding – and this probably isn’t really even true of branding – but when we think about branding, it feels like it’s going to be easier to do. It’s not going to hit our visibility and our vulnerability buttons as much as doing something like what you mentioned, like getting on Zoom with the kind of person who you want to serve and asking them questions. Talking to our colleagues, really just putting ourselves out there and asking for help, those things can feel really disgusting and they’re really worth it and useful. 

Linzy [00:11:46] That was a very surprising word choice, I have to say. Disgusting was not the word I was expecting. Tell me what you mean when you say disgusting. 

Annie [00:11:55] Like vulnerable. 

Linzy [00:11:56] Vulnerable. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yeah. 

Annie [00:11:58] Feeling like- so many times when I’m working with folks, they would rather do anything than, like, get on Zoom with somebody and get into a conversation and put themselves out there when they don’t feel, quote-unquote, ready yet. 

Linzy [00:12:15] Right. Which also actually, it makes me think about kind of like the branding in the website. That’s the cloak that we want to put on to make it look like we have it figured out. Yeah. When it actually takes a long time to figure it out. And even when you figure it out, sometimes it changes because something else changes beyond your control or the culture changes or the market changes. So yeah, I, I do wonder if it’s like unconsciously folks are trying to skip that messy, vulnerable part and go right to the like, Ta-da! Yeah, here’s my beautiful color scheme, here’s my beautiful graphic design. But without all that, that initial work that you’re talking about, the who and the what and the like, getting on Zoom and talking to your people and realizing your assumptions were wrong and being surprised by something and then hearing it over and over and over. Without that, you can’t build something of substance. 

Annie [00:13:05] Absolutely. Yeah. Did your niche change beyond private practice, or did you always know it was going to be around money? 

Linzy [00:13:13] Oh, I always knew it was going to be around money. 

Annie [00:13:15] Love it. 

Linzy [00:13:16] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was like. That was the thing. That I identified as like, Huh? I have this thing that I love that everybody else hates. And I have not even grown remotely tired of it. In fact, I have to almost fight to stay in the space because I think- I will get advice from folks like or my students will give me the feedback of like I want- if you were teaching, like, how to, like, scale and like, build a new brand, I would do that. I’m like, Yeah, that’s cool. Annie does that. This person does it. This person does that. Like, that’s not what I do and it’s not what I want to do. And I don’t feel compelled in that direction. It’s like I want to- I’ll be the person who will help you learn how to do cash flow projection so you can make strategic decisions about what you’re going to build and how many folks are going to serve and when you’re going to roll out your courses and how much your operating expense ratio is going to be like, I will stay in that nerdy space with you, like this is where I want to to live. And so I’ve had to like really just commit to this space over and over because I think there could have been a lot of shiny object pull had I not felt so clear like, no, this is my zone of genius and other folks are really brilliant at marketing and that’s never going to be me. And that’s totally fine. What about you? Has your focus shifted over time, the folks that you serve? 

Annie [00:14:28] It did. In the beginning, I was serving therapists in private practice and therapists who wanted to create private practices, and it was all about practice building. 

Linzy [00:14:38] Yes. 

Annie [00:14:39] Yeah. Okay. And I wish I had switched sooner and listened to that inner voice like you’re talking about sooner, if anything, because this work always kind of pulled me a little bit more like what’s beyond private practice and what are people doing and how can I help them do it faster? Yeah. So beyond private practice. 

Linzy [00:15:03] Yes. Like, yeah, that, that spark and like, you know, this is something I talk about with students and this is what you guide folks in doing for their next level thing is like find that area either within your practice, the folks you love to serve within your practice or the way you love to work. Whether it’s like intensives or hour-and-a-half sessions or whatever. Find that area where there’s that like spark and pull and follow it, because the work that we love is easy to do. The other stuff can be really hard. 

Annie [00:15:29] Yes. 

Linzy [00:15:30] So you and I now live in a in a similar kind of space, this online space where we have to sell and show up and launch and all of these kinds of things. And I think that this is something that often terrifies therapists. Yeah, this is like something that they’re like, Oh gosh, I have to do all this sticking my neck out and not knowing what’s going to happen. I’m curious for you, how do you handle and how do you manage and probably what do you teach your folks about that work of like having to launch and open your doors to your course and show up and be seen and all of that stuff? How do you handle being in the middle of a launch? 

Annie [00:16:12] I am finding that I’m finally having less of a trauma response when I’m in the middle of the launch. So- and I say finally, like I’ve launched dozens of times. 

Linzy [00:16:24] Yes. 

Annie [00:16:24] So this is hard work for me. And I know for a lot of my clients, it’s really hard to, like, put ourselves out there, know that our money, our income really depends on launches doing well. Along with, like, all the feelings that I have about myself when I’m launching, like, all of that is a lot to manage and to feel like, you know, my friends have pointed out that there’s kind of been launch Annie and then rest-of-the-time Annie and launch Annie is just more anxious or insecure, more kind of fragile than rest-of-the-time Annie. 

Linzy [00:17:07] Right. 

Annie [00:17:09] And I feel like that’s finally shifting to where I feel like there’s a just a stable Annie that gets through all of it. And then I can kind of, like, talk myself down more easily. Yeah, but that’s like, that’s after dozens of launches. So I really feel for people, especially when they’re starting out with launching. And part of what I want to help people do is set realistic expectations based on what they already have going on. So knowing what their audience size is, who’s in their audience, how many people they’ve asked for help, how many conversations they’ve been having, so that they really know, okay, I’ve got this set up for myself. And so. Here’s what’s likely to happen with this launch. Like, here are my numbers going in and then my expectations so we can like, set that together and think it through. Because otherwise I think you’re looking at what other people’s lunches look like from the outside. Which might be total bullshit depending on who it is and how honest they are. 

Linzy [00:18:26] Yeah, right. Yeah. 

Annie [00:18:28] And. It’s also like you’re not getting the behind-the-scenes look at what they’re going through during their lunch. So, you know, I also, I really like to help people choose a less risky way to launch the first time to look at do I want to maybe just launch a one-on-one program as my first offering so that if I got one person, I’ve actually had a successful one like running my program. And that doing that for a period of time while you build your audience and then go into a group launch. 

Linzy [00:19:06] Right. 

Annie [00:19:07] So like, I’m working with someone right now who’s planning on starting a group, no doubt, and this program is going to be so valuable for a group. And it’s, you know, it’s a group of people who tend – like so many – it’s a group of people who tend to feel isolated and need each other. So she’s going to run it as a group. Probably in the fall. And in the spring she’s going to launch it as a one-on-one program and then just run it enough times until she hits critical mass and can see. All right. I have enough people knocking on my door that this can be a great program. 

Linzy [00:19:46] I love that. You know, you’re letting I think that that’s a very strategic way to start because you’re toe dipping. You’re still getting the experience of what it’s like to run a launch, like to put it out there, open your doors, have a deadline, all of the things. But you’re making it much more likely that you’re going to succeed. Yeah. And it’s nice to have an experience of success at the start rate and like set a goal that means that you can be like, Oh, I did it. I got my one person or my two people. Then you also, I’m sure, got to work through and refine your program by going through it individually with these people. Yeah. Which is going to also make it that much better as you do grow your audience and bring more people in the next time. That’s very strategic. I love that you do that with people. 

Annie [00:20:34] I really like it too, because then she’s going to have testimonials when she launches it as a group program in the fall. And otherwise, she could just put- but I mean, there’s nothing wrong with doing it this way either. But she could put just a ton of energy into audience building from now till fall and not be making a dime in all that time. And so I would rather she make back the investment that she put in my program and the other things she’s doing and then go into the fall and start bringing in real money. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:07] And it’s nice to actually be able to do the work that you’re wanting to do and like run the program that you’re building and actually get that experience. 

Annie [00:21:14] You’re so excited about it. 

Linzy [00:21:15] Witnessing the transformation and helping people. And, you know, I think what you’re talking about here, you’re talking about like “launch Annie”, “rest-of-the-time Annie” coming closer together. I’m sure so many therapists have experienced this even when they’re just marketing their private practices. But when you have a scaled offer, when you have something like a course where you’re really like putting it out there and trying to call in, you know, a certain amount of people at the same time to share an experience, you know, a scaled model. It really is multiplied, right? Like, I think there’s just so much invitation for so many parts of us. And we all have our special blend, you know, of like activation to come up. Like, I was joking to you before we started recording, joking, not joking. Like I just did a launch in January. I do challenge launches twice a year. So the money momentum challenge, which folks listening have probably heard me talk about or maybe have participated in, that’s an example of a type of launch that’s very intense. Right? It’s like it involves me showing up every day. There’s teaching, there’s lives every night. There’s engaging all throughout the day. It’s this like really intense burst of energy, which is like fun but like not where I live on a regular basis. So it’s kind of like I’m, like, partying hard for a week. Yeah. And then after you’ve kind of done your thing and you’ve shown people like, This is how I work, this is what the experience is, this is what I’m offering, there’s this five-day period, you know, where folks have the opportunity to join the course where you’re just like, have to wait and you continue. Like, I continue showing up and the emails are going out and everything’s happening. But, you know, I think for me, you know, what it brings up is this The part of me that can come up is the like. Well, just shut it down. This is fine. We can just burn it to the ground. It’s okay. That kind of, you know, thing where it’s like all this effort and, like, again, we’re all going to have those parts, but just noticing, like, Oh, there’s the burn it down part. Hello burn it down part. Welcome back. I’m doing a launch. 

Annie [00:23:11] For you, what triggers burn-it-down? Is it like a day of cricket or like, what is it that comes in and makes you say. 

Linzy [00:23:19] Here’s the incredible thing, and this shows that it’s trauma, right? It’s like it’s very black and white. I’m very numbers oriented. Obviously, this is what I teach. So I have my percentage that I want to see my conversion percentage like of the folks who are in the challenge, who aren’t students or grads already, because also some of those folks are participating. Of the people who haven’t joined me in money skills and who might be considering they would be eligible to be new students. There’s a percentage that you know, based on past launches, we want to see join. And the last time our goal was 4% and I landed at 3.6. Failure. Right? 

Annie [00:23:54] Wow. 

Linzy [00:23:54] That’s what the voice says. Right. So that is that like, you know, and that’s very black and white thinking, which, you know, is always a cue that you’re not in your balanced wise mind where it’s like four would be success, 3.6 not success. And that’s not how it works at all. That’s not how life works. But I noticed that in myself and to the point that I almost have to like, you know, when I’m venting to business friends. I have to almost like, walk it back after like, you know, I’ll have friends after who were like, Well, okay, let’s think of how you do this differently because you’re never hitting the number you want. I was like, Well, to be fair, we are talking about 0.4% difference. You know, it’s like I have to almost like add-  

Annie [00:24:33] You have to remind them how to be- yeah- how to be the voice of reason for you. 

Linzy [00:24:36] I wasn’t, I wasn’t being reasonable when I said that. And now I am being reasonable again. And reasonable me sees that, that was great and I really had fun and lots of amazing people joined the course and others now have had an experience that might help them decide to join the course later if it’s the right thing. So it’s like, that’s my like post-launch. I’ve had a weekend. I’m like, you know, everything’s back online again, but- and I’m sure there’s many, many other responses that I’m not even thinking of right now that I have, You know, when launches are are going on or when launches aren’t going well, when there is crickets, you know, that’s always a moment, too. But I do agree like it is getting easier over time, partially just because now I’m at the point where it’s like, okay, it’s launch feelings. 

Annie [00:25:18] Here they are. It’s launch feelings. 

Linzy [00:25:20] Feelings. We’ve been here. 

Annie [00:25:21] Hi Launch. Hi launch Linzy or launch Annie. Like, we’ve met. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:25:26] Yeah, exactly. I’m like, you know, like launch feelings will require some sushi and cinnamon buns from, you know, the overpriced store downtown. Yeah, Like, that’s really the best thing that we can do for them. But, yeah, it is. I think, you know, this is just such an example of how business and especially when we start to build brands where we have our faces out there and our voices out there and we are trying to call in our people, it’s really vulnerable. It can bring up a lot of vulnerable parts of us. 

Annie [00:25:54] Yes, there’s so much stirred up at once because there’s that vulnerability piece about like our value or our worthiness. And then there’s the money piece that can feel so panicky, right? Like if somebody is- if, well, I’ll just keep it to me- if I’m not hitting a number that I had hoped and I’m in the middle of a launch and I’m doing all this predicting, which is not really a good use of my energy. But no, no, no, I’ll do it anyway. That’s a time when I can get into just money fears big time. 

Linzy [00:26:30] Sure. Yeah. I like. And I’m curious, would you be up for talking more about that? Like, what do you think your specific stories or fears are that surface in those moments? 

Annie [00:26:40] It’s a little bit like burn it all down, but it’s the language that comes up for me is, oh, never mind, Oh, never mind. This whole program and this whole business that I actually really love and get a ton out of. Yeah. It’s just sort of this like shrinking. 

Linzy [00:26:59] Yeah, I was going to say like a part of like defeat or something like. 

Annie [00:27:01] Yeah, yeah. And going invisible like, Oh, never mind. Yeah, that’s what feels tempting to me. 

Linzy [00:27:07] Sure. Yeah, I can see that. And I think, you know, the thing about businesses like this and folks who are listening, like, if, if you are, you know, thinking about building an expanded brand like Annie has and like I have, this is something that’s very different from private practice is that the money does come in in chunks. 

Annie [00:27:25] Yes. 

Linzy [00:27:25] Or it doesn’t come, you know, like when you’re selling a course, you know, depending on the ratio you get, like folks are pay in full to like payment plans. You know, obviously, depending on the structure of your business, sometimes like, you know, it’s feast or famine the way the money comes in. And I think that’s such an invitation, again, to like all the parts of us, like all the scarcity, all the money fears can easily come out in that model because it feels like so much is at stake when you’re in those times, when you’re like, okay, now this is the time when all my work is going to pay off. And it’s like, Oh, well, maybe it’s not okay, that’s fine.  

Annie [00:27:59] What if it doesn’t? 

Linzy [00:27:59] It’s okay. 

Annie [00:28:01] Yes. 

Linzy [00:28:01] Yeah. Yeah, it is this like next level I think of money mindset work that you have to do. And then also, of course, I would argue, of systems that you need to put in place so that you are not actually, you know, relying on this one launch to make the money work. Like I think in businesses where you have feast or famine and this is true in private practice, too, for folks who are listening, who are never going to build businesses like this. This is also true in private practice – just not as extreme. You know, we need to have the systems in place to give ourselves stability. Yeah. Even if the money comes in in ebbs and flows, we need to have that stability of like a regular paycheck and a certain amount of money in the bank. Otherwise, emotionally, I think there’s just so much at stake and financially so much at stake. Most of us, I don’t think, are doing our best work when we are stressed. Stress to the nines. 

Annie [00:28:49] That has really helped me. Having- yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Having my actual salary not dependent on what’s about to happen with a current launch is so helpful. Absolutely, so helpful. So I can look ahead to worst case scenario. Yes, it could happen. It hasn’t actually ever happened for me, but it could totally happen. But like, worst case scenario, I wait till the next launch and that would totally work out. Yeah. Another thing that I do to kind of hack myself is I like to come up with, like early in the launch the worst case scenario and find a part of me that would love that outcome. Hmm. So like, let’s say the worst case scenario is: my program has room for 20 people, but the worst case scenario is I guess I could just say no one signs up, because if I can find a way to fall in love with this scenario, then I’m going to be doing great. 

Linzy [00:29:55] So then you can’t lose. 

Annie [00:29:57] Right. 

Linzy [00:29:57] Interesting. 

Annie [00:29:59] To really, like, dream into it until I can find, Yeah, that isn’t my first choice but if that were to happen. 

Linzy [00:30:06] Yeah. I mean I think it’s kind of like that CBT intervention of like what’s the worst that can happen. 

Annie [00:30:11] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:12] Which I’m always surprised that that doesn’t just like send people into like pure catastrophe, but somehow it does seem to work where you’re like, oh okay, well if that happened, then I will reopen my private practice and launch it again next week with a different branding. Like, you know, it’s like then you realize like, Oh, that I could even solve that problem. 

Annie [00:30:28] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:29] Yeah. Which is powerful because the black and white tells us that it’s like success or doom. 

Annie [00:30:35] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:36] And actually there’s a huge spectrum in the middle that we can manage. 

Annie [00:30:39] It does usually surprise my clients when I ask them to go into that a little bit. Like what might be great about that happening? Yeah. And at first they’re like, That’s what I’m telling you. I really don’t want to have happen. Like, Yeah, no, I got that. 

Linzy [00:30:55] I am listening. Yeah, but I can see that you’re kind of, you’re inoculating yourself against that. Yeah. And so, I mean, I am curious, Annie, with where you are and then like, what you’ve built, you know, you’ve come through private practice, you start practicing, you’ve now built this, like, coaching business around helping, you know, therapists expand beyond therapy. How do you think differently about money now than you did, you know, when you first started off, let’s even say back in private practice, what do you notice different about how you think about money now compared to when you were just starting out? 

Annie [00:31:32] Yeah, One thing is that my expectation of my income is a lot higher. So like now I really expect to make- like to gross in my business, like over 300 K and my goals are a lot higher than that moving forward. And as a person in private practice, I just had a much smaller range of where I could see my goals. And I wasn’t unhappy with that. That was okay. But I just noticed when I look back at like, my old goal setting documents, I’m like, Oh, wow, I really like could see my income ceiling is a lot lower. So that’s one thing is just like I’m, not really linking hours to income anymore. Yeah, I’m much more linking like the value of my program, the value of the outcomes. How I can make my programs better and better. I think about that tied to income rather than how many hours can I work. 

Linzy [00:32:40] Right. Because that is scalable. Right. Like the value and like the transformation deliver in the way that you find ways to have more folks have success, you know, with you doing a similar amount of work or working differently like those, there’s just so much more potential there than your time, which is like obviously got a finite limit of how much direct service you could ever do in a week and probably how much you could charge for an hour of direct service with an individual person also has a limit that’s going to look different. That’s interesting. So that makes me curious then, like has your lifestyle has your life changed a lot now, having built a business that has such higher capacity or such higher potential for the money that you bring in. 

Annie [00:33:25] Some things I’ve noticed changing are I feel more ease with being generous. Like I feel like it doesn’t feel like a big deal to make decisions about like donating more. Or just little, little things with, you know, treating a friend to something. Those things don’t feel like as big of a deal. And then with what my kids get to do, yeah, they get a lot more options than they did- not into- I mean, they would be surprised to hear me say that because they don’t get a lot of presents or things like that. And we don’t go out to eat a lot. But in terms of the activities that we pay for, yeah, they’ve got a lot more options. So those are some things I just notice a lot of ease around. Yeah, but if you look in on my life it doesn’t look that different. It’s more like those kinds of things and being able to put a lot into retirement. 

Linzy [00:34:24] Right. Yeah.  

Annie [00:34:25] Which is a big deal. 

Linzy [00:34:26] Yeah. That is a big deal. That’s a big, big deal. And that’s something I’ve just been thinking about this week – a couple of times I’ve thought and talked about it this week with people – where it’s like when you’re not earning a lot, you can still kind of like get by while you’re actively earning, but it’s in retirement that we’re really going to see the impact because that’s when that little stream of money starts coming in. You’re like, Oh shit, now I’m on this small fixed income. Yeah. Then it’s like the reality of it really is going to settle. So, yeah, having the more you would put away for retirement, you’re dramatically changing the last few decades of your life. Yes. At this point. Right. Because our retirement now is a long chapter of our life. 

Annie [00:35:02] Yeah. And I don’t know how long. Like I’m 51. Yeah. I’m not feeling any pull to retire. 

Linzy [00:35:08] Yes. 

Annie [00:35:09] But you never know what’s going to happen. We don’t have a safety net in the U.S., so. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:35:17] Yeah, absolutely. And I think about like my mother-in-law who retired earlier than planned because she had an injury and that was kind of like, oh, well, that’s the end of her working life. She needed her body to work. She now has this injury, like, she’s retired. The end. It’s not always the time or the way that we think it’s going to be. 

Annie [00:35:34] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:35:35] But something that I’m hearing and that may be helpful for people here is: it does not sound to me like earning more has like fundamentally changed you as a person or you’re like, I’m hearing more ease. You know, your kids have more activities, there’s more security in the future. But I’m not necessarily hearing. Did you buy a yacht? Anything like that. 

Annie [00:35:58] No, and what’s funny- but although we did go to Italy last year. Yeah. So that- I find that thing of spending more on experiences than things I know that’s not black and white. Like, what exactly is an experience? What exactly is a thing? But I do find that I want to invest in those things more. And I drive a clunker. And like I would have thought, like my sort of dream vehicle would have been like a really adorable, like Fiat or Mini Cooper. And like, when it comes into real life that just keeps not being what we want to spend money on. So we just keep buying used cars that will get us from A to B and that’s it. For example.

Linzy [00:36:43] We are the same. We are the same. Yeah. 

Annie [00:36:45] And like, I don’t wear expensive clothes. Like, I also would have thought that, like, maybe I would have upgraded my wardrobe and like, I just keep not wanting to. 

Linzy [00:36:55] Yeah. And so what does that tell you or show you? What have you taken from that? 

Annie [00:37:00] I think it’s about like what truly gives me joy and pleasure and matters to me. Yeah. And, like, really comfortable t-shirts, it turns out, are what I want to be wearing. 

Linzy [00:37:12] But it’s not just what you could afford. It’s actually what you like. 

Annie [00:37:15] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:37:16] And I’m asking this Annie, in part because, you know, I do think that sometimes therapists like have a fear that if they make more, they’re going to change in bad ways. They’re going to become more materialistic or they’re going to forget about what really matters to them, or they’re not going to share the money. They’re going to become greedy and more, more conservative. And these kinds of things, which I think are cultural narratives. But I think also, you know, therapists are we tend to be very invested in like we want to be good people. We want to be doing good things in the world. And so I’m pulling this out partially because it’s like, yeah, seems really clear that that has not happened to you. 

Annie [00:37:51] It has not. I don’t think- and I think maybe part of that fear because I’ve had that fear, too. I wonder if part of it comes from we’ve seen rich assholes, right? And like, we don’t want to be a rich asshole, but I feel like that might be partly that we’ve seen that when people have surrounded themselves with other people who will not question what they’re doing with their money or with their, you know, with their resources in general. And like, I’m hanging out still with people who share my values, some of them with more money than me, some of them with less. But like my friends are still asking the same questions. I’m still hanging out with the same people and some new wonderful people. So I think that’s a good question for us to ask themselves is like, what would that- what would those values be that we would be afraid that we would step into? And are we living in a community with people who would question us if we were starting to shift into values that are like really inauthentic to us? 

Linzy [00:39:00] Right. Yeah. Like I think having authentic connection with your people, whoever that is, is going to keep you grounded and keep you connected with what actually matters. Because I’m sure there are folks where you do get pulled in. They do get pulled into things that in retrospect are like, Well, that was a dumb way to spend my money, or that was a dumb way to spend my time. And I do think there is a level of class and I’m not going to adjust to too much because this is kind of beyond the scope of this podcast generally. But, you know, I think there is a level of wealth where it does really start to change your life in ways that could be seen as negative. Like it’s hard to trust people if you have a lot of money. Do they like you for you? Are there to try to get access to your resources and what you have? You know, and you know, there are people who have written and talked about this, but that’s so far from where we are, most of us, that I don’t think that that’s something that is really going to be a concern if you’re making 100 K or 200 K or even 300 a year, especially if you’re living in a city, like you are like, you know, San Francisco. All right, that money doesn’t go super far. There’s not a ton of disposable income. We’re living in more expensive places. But yeah, I do think that there is a fear that folks have that I will if I expand, if I build a bigger brand, if I start taking up space and if I’m successful, I’m actually going to lose myself or lose my values. 

Annie [00:40:18] Yeah, Makes us scared to make more money, even though that’s what a lot of us really want. Yes. So yeah, I mean, the reasons. Yeah. And me. Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I like to talk about how much money I make and I like to be honest about the numbers because it feels like I could never. I remember when I was first becoming an entrepreneur, I felt like I couldn’t get anybody to tell me the real numbers. And that made it so difficult. 

Linzy [00:40:44] Yes. Yes. That transparency is so valuable. Annie, thank you. Thank you for joining me today. It’s been really wonderful. Have you on the podcast. And if folks want to get further into your world, where can they find you? 

Annie [00:40:59] A great place to start would be Rebel Therapist dot me. That’s where all my stuff lives. And speaking of transparency, thank you so much for the honesty and the amazing stuff that you bring us. 

Linzy [00:41:15] Oh, thank you. 

Annie [00:41:16] So appreciate you. 

Linzy [00:41:16] Thanks, Annie. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Annie [00:41:20] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:41:34] I really appreciated Annie’s honesty today. I know she thanked me at the end for my honesty. I think her honesty was also so, so valuable because Annie- I would say Annie is probably a little bit ahead of me of where I am, you know, with the numbers she’s talking about. She’s kind of two or three steps ahead of me. And it’s always interesting to, like, talk to someone who’s 2 to 3 steps ahead of where you are, wherever you are in business, and hear about what’s happening there. And, you know, hearing Annie’s experience of like, yeah, she has her goals are so much bigger now, her income is so much bigger and this is what has changed, but also this is what has stayed the same. I think sometimes we can have fantasies about – with our businesses and with our income when we earn more. This is what is going to change about me, for better or for worse. We can have the fantasy of Everything’s gonna be fine. I’m never going to feel anxious ever again. That’s usually not true. But we can also have that negative fantasy of I’m going to lose sight of myself. I’m not going to be a compassionate person anymore. I’m going to lose sight of my values. Right. And I you know, I so appreciate Annie sharing about her experiences with what it’s been like to build a large, sustainable, successful business beyond private practice and what has changed and what hasn’t. And just to summarize, the core of it is she hasn’t really changed a lot, but she does have more money to do great things with her kids, save for retirement, and create memories, which sounds pretty great. So I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would so appreciate if you could give me a review on Apple Podcasts. I know you hear me say it every time, but I say it because I mean it. If you could take 2 minutes to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it’s incredibly helpful so that other therapists can find us. Thanks for listening today. 

Silvana [00:00:07] I’d rather stay in what I know in my comfort zone. Right. Because it’s so comfy as opposed to going to my learning zone where I can realize things can be different and they can have a different relationship to, again, to money, to my practice, to everything that I do. And that gives you so much more space and it gives you so much more energy to do things and to continue thinking differently in a way that it’s not harming anybody. It’s pushing against the system as it is, but it just allows you to have so much more space and a healthier relationship with everyone and everything that you are interacting with. 

Linzy [00:00:58] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Before we get into the episode today, first of all, disclaimer, I will say that as you can hear, I’m a little bit sick, so be prepared for that today. My voice is a little bit off and I wanted to share a review from Apple Podcasts because I so appreciate when you folks leave the reviews that one of our listeners left. The review is titled Informative Podcast. They write: the podcast has been such a blessing and is so needed. The strategies have been helpful and Linzy’s eloquence, empathy, and constructive approach is so refreshing. This topic is so needed. Thank you so much to the listener who left that review. It means a lot to me. And I say this at the end of the episode a lot, but you know, you’ve probably stopped hearing it at this point. Leaving reviews is really the best way for other folks to find us on the podcast platform on Apple Podcasts. So if you are enjoying the podcast and you could take a minute to go leave even just a short little review, I really appreciate it. Today’s episode is a conversation with Silvana Espinoza Lau. She is a psychotherapist and a clinical supervisor in private practice, and she’s also an embodied liberation coach for mental health clinicians. She supports mental health professionals who want to incorporate liberation-focused and anti-oppressive values into their practices in an embodied way. And this is very much what we got into today. Silvana and I talked about specifically BIPOC and marginalized therapists, their relationships to money, some of the specific messages that folks get around money in those communities. We talked about the silence around money and how it keeps these systems in place. Like the silence is not accidental. And we also got into perfectionism and shame and not-good-enough. All these things that impact all sorts of folks, of all sorts of identities, the self included, that are actually part of these bigger systems and help to keep these bigger oppressive systems in place. It was a really interesting conversation, kind of coming to some of the topics that I feel like I explore with my students, that I’ve explored before, but in a new way. And with this lens, I really enjoyed this conversation with Silvana. Here is my conversation with Silvana Espinosa Lau. Silvana, welcome to the podcast. 

Silvana [00:03:45] Thank you for having me, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:03:47] Yeah, I’m really excited to have you. So before we dig in today, we’ve got – I’m really excited about what we’re going to chat about today. But let’s talk a little bit first about the work that you do for people who might not have heard of you yet. 

Silvana [00:03:58] Sure. Yeah. So I am a marriage and family therapist in the state of Oregon. So I have a small caseload and I do therapy with people of color in particular, and people of other marginalized identities. I am also a clinical supervisor in the state of Oregon, and I am also a consultant and a coach because of the experiences that I have had personally and professionally. I decided to expand the type of wellness services that I can offer, and I also coach other clinicians who want to incorporate social justice values in their practices. 

Linzy [00:04:38] Great. Awesome. And I think that’s often how, you know, whether you want to call it like a side hustle or like your expanded offers. Like that’s often how it grows, right, is like out of our own experiences or like identifying where the holes are for us. 

Silvana [00:04:51] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:04:52] We step in to do the work that we also have needed. 

Silvana [00:04:55] Yes. 

Linzy [00:04:55] So I’m curious then, from your experience and your perspective, what affects BIPOC or otherwise marginalized clinicians’ relationship with money specifically? 

Silvana [00:05:05] Yeah, yeah, that’s a great question. And yes, that question applies both to BIPOC clinicians and to clinicians of marginalized identities as well. And I think that’s one of the many things that affect that relationship, is the fact that for people with marginalized identities, the idea of imposter syndrome is way, way bigger. The idea of, I have to work harder than my peer who has privilege identities – whatever those privileged identities are whether it’s the fact that you are a white person, a white clinician, or the fact that you have a PhD, so you have educational privilege, or if you have financial privilege or any other of the privileges that you can have, right? You can feel that you have to work harder, that you have to work longer hours, that you have to prove your worth, that you have to prove that you know the same things and that you have to adapt and even code switch to what the norm is in our society and by our society. I am assuming we’re both talking about American society, right? With all the normative expectations that we have in culture, in our culture right now. So it’s like I subconsciously feel or I have been given this message that I have to adapt to that norm in order to succeed in that norm. And because I am not that norm, I have these extra hoops that I have to jump through and I have this extra energy that I need to spend. And that definitely impacts the relationship that a clinician can have with money. 

Linzy [00:06:48] So with that imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon affecting, you know, BIPOC and marginalized therapists so much more, what would that actually look like in the relationship to money? Like what what would actually kind of be some examples of how that’s going to be showing up for them? 

Silvana [00:07:04] I think that one very clear example – and this comes not just from the fact that some of us have more marginalized identities and others – is the messages that we have received. It’s this idea, for instance, for all of us or for most of us, I am assuming people who have been through grad school to go to mental health or, you know, some profession that has to do with serving others. It’s this idea that we are here to serve others, but we’re not here to make money. Right? And if the first example that we have right out of grad school, in practicum or in our internships, is you’re here to learn, but I’m not going to pay you what you deserve. 

Linzy [00:07:48] Yes, right, Right. 

Silvana [00:07:49] You have to have a certain productivity. You have to work certain hours. You have to meet this quota of this many clients per day. And all of these clients with all these experiences. And we are supposed to do it all. So we already learn this expectation of I have to give myself and they have to put other people first and I have to put my clients first before me. And in the case of people with marginalized identities, I am already code switching in this world where I am not the norm. And on top of that, I have to put others first. My clients. Right. Or I have received a similar message to that. My clients are very important. I need to help them if there is a crisis. I am supposed to answer that phone call even if it’s 7 p.m. at night, right? Yeah, because it’s their well-being. So it’s this idea of putting other people first and this idea of, I have to do this so that I can prove that I am worthy of this position or that I am worthy of graduating, or so that I have this experience on my resumé, on my CV, so that so-and-so agency will hire me. And of course, that expectation is bigger implicitly for people of marginalized identities. And that’s so huge. That’s some extra energy. The connections are expanding. 

Linzy [00:09:17] Yeah. When you’re saying this, I was an EMDR clinician when I used to practice, and there’s this list in EMDR of like negative cognitions, which I didn’t really use once I became a more like, experienced clinician, but like, I remember that list and as you’re saying this, like, I’m thinking about the belief, like, I am not important. Right. And the way that you know, that belief or, you know, side versions of that belief, like I’m not worthy or I don’t have worth or how those are just being reinforced over and over again for folks through marginalization in the first place and through that, you know, the messages, the subtle, systemic and overt messages that you’re getting. But then also through the training that you get that gets layered on top of that, which just reinforces like, you’re not important. But then as you’re pointing out, and what I think I’m hearing, is then you have to work even harder or accomplish more to get what the privileged person next to you, the person who has more points of privilege to you, is going to get. So it just seems like everything is- I shouldn’t say everything, that’s that’s a little bit over-encompassing, but like, it’s stacked against you. 

Silvana [00:10:19] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:10:20] Right. Like, you’re- the way that you work is so much going to be to your own self-sacrifice. 

Silvana [00:10:25] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:10:26] Because of these different pressures. Yeah. With that, you started to talk about our training. Like, what messages do you think that clinicians in general get about money and about being business owners like, you know, within the bigger systems, one of them being capitalism. 

Silvana [00:10:42] For sure. For sure. I don’t remember a single class in grad school that would generate the discussion of, Let’s talk about money. Right. Whether you are going to private practice or you’re going to work for an agency. Nobody talked about money in grad school. And for some of us, nobody talked about money in college. And for some of us, nobody talked about money in our families. So we have all these different layers of nobody ever talked about money. And how is that possible in a capitalist society? It feels like such a double bind to me. I am supposed to live in this system that is a capitalist system, whether I like it or not, whether I agree with it or not. So I am supposed to think of money day in and day out, but I cannot have those conversations and I don’t have those conversations in grad school. I guess the fact that there is not a message – that in and of itself is a message, right? Is we don’t talk about money. We talk about helping people. And we talk about – at least my experience – this is what community mental health is and this is what private practice is and this is what group practice looks like. And we highly suggest that you start with this or that you do this or that. You get this experience or, you know, these are the evidence-based practices and that is all good, but there’s not a conversation about money ever. There’s not a conversation about you should not equate your worth to how much you’re making, and you should still make a very decent salary. I never received that message in grad school or elsewhere. Therefore, that was a non-message message that I have received. And I think that most of my colleagues have also received either in grad school or as they were going through their professional development. 

Linzy [00:12:41] Yeah. To really clarify it, like what is the non-message message that you think we get through that silence? 

Silvana [00:12:47] We don’t talk about money, right? 

Linzy [00:12:49] Right. 

Silvana [00:12:50] Yeah. Just don’t talk about money.  

Linzy [00:12:53] Because what I mean, what it makes me think about too, and like, you know, capitalism as a whole thing unto itself. And I- it’s been a while since I’ve done some in-depth reading about capitalist theory, but it does make me think in a very general sense, how there’s kind of like people who, like, strive and win in capitalism by like having others who they’re pushing down and then those who are being pushed down. And I’m like, if you’re of the class that doesn’t talk about money, you’re probably the ones who are supposed to be not making money, and the ones who are supposed to be like kind of being exploited, right? If we want to be very simplistic, exploit or be exploited. Yeah, we are certainly not being set up to exploit others for sure. But in doing so, then there’s like this, as you say, like we do also need money though, to live. 

Silvana [00:13:34]  Of course. 

Linzy [00:13:35] Right. And so there’s a contradiction there. You know, it’s like, exactly. We don’t want to get into the thing where we think that we’re only worth- you only have a successful practice if you’re making six figures or if you’re, you know, heading these certain like lifestyle, these materialistic goals. But at the same time, we know that we need money to be well and to navigate the world that we live in. 

Silvana [00:13:55] For sure. For sure. And I do think that it’s so hypocritical, the fact that for some people, because of the messages that we have received, for some people, it’s okay to make money, right? We have these millionaires, billionaires, making money and investing and, you know, all the things that they do. And yeah, we can criticize them and- period. We criticize them, but they continue making money. But what about us? I think that there’s nothing wrong with changing our relationship to money and there’s nothing wrong with creating generational wealth, for instance. To me, the idea is if I am going to live in a capitalist society because I just cannot move to, you know, to my plot of land and live off the land, if that is not a possibility, if I have to live within these systems, I will try to make- I would want to make the system work in my favor. And how can I, if you will, reappropriate that system so that it benefits me and it benefits the people around me in a good way. What’s wrong with me making more money and so that I, in turn, I can be a better clinician, in my case, have more space, have more energy, to serve the people that I want to serve and serve them better, and have enough money so that I can rest, so that I can be creative, so that I can think of other ways in which I can help others and be even more creative and have more space to think of other ways in which I can invest that money still in benefit of my community, which is what I want to do. And I think it’s possible. And I know that I’m not the only one doing that. So I think that, again, it’s so hypocritical that for some people it seems to be okay that they have this money and they can continue investing and they are educated about money. But that is not our reality. Like how can that happen if we are both existing within the same system? 

Linzy [00:16:02] Yeah. And I mean, what it makes me think about too, as you’re saying, that is like I think sometimes it’s easy to get into this very simplistic narrative about like money’s bad look at like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk and like, what are they doing to make the world better? Good questions. 

Silvana [00:16:19] A very good question. 

Linzy [00:16:19] You know, but it’s like you look at a fortune like that and the money that that one person is amassed could drastically change the quality of life and the well-being of community. Of literally hundreds of thousands of people. What this one person individual has amassed. And it’s like there is so much potential in that money when it gets into the hands of people who- like making the difference between a household bringing in $40,000 a year and $100,000 a year is a massive quality of life difference. It brings down the stress in that household. It builds up the opportunity and supports for the children of that household. You know, it’s like positive ripple effects outwards. And it’s not the same as the immense amassing of wealth on the far end of somebody who could never actually possibly get more enjoyment out of money than they’ve already got because they have multi-billions. 

Silvana [00:17:10] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:17:12] At that point, the money is having no more positive impact. But if you think about all the households, that would benefit immensely from 100,000 more a year, it’s a different- it’s almost like a completely different situation. The way that that money work is going to work in those different circumstances. And yet we’re all within the same system. And it’s like we were feeling bad because we want to make $100,000 a year. 

Silvana [00:17:34] Yes. Yes. 

Linzy [00:17:35] But somebody over here is making 300 million a year or even a billion a year. So, yeah, there’s kind of almost like a different set of ethics that’s being put on people. 

Silvana [00:17:43] Completely, completely right. And we’re supposed to be the ones who are so ethical. And we have these boards and, you know, all these institutions and agencies to ensure that we are acting and behaving ethically. But again, there’s not a conversation about money really for clinicians. And I think we should have. I think the fact that there’s not a conversation is also very oppressive. It’s you know, how again, for those Jeff Bezos, as you were saying, for those Elon Musk’s, it’s okay, but why it’s not okay for us, I think that’s very oppressive. You know, we should be able to have those conversations. We should be able to make it okay that I want to, I don’t know, I want to leave my 9 to 5 and they want to go into private practice or I have enough energy to create change within my 9 to 5 job in, you know, community mental health. That should be an okay conversation to have. 

Linzy [00:18:40] Yeah. And I think, you know, as we’re talking about this, it also makes you think about how having these conversations is powerful because you are pushing against the silence. Like that silence is part of what keeps things the way that they are. 

Silvana [00:18:52] Yes, completely. Completely. Yeah. When you talk about pushing against the silence, it reminds me of even in private practice, if you’re working, if you’re a panel with insurance companies, you are not- you sign an agreement that says you are not supposed to share your rate with other clinicians, right? You’re not supposed to talk about your rate. And at some point I thought, well, yeah, that makes sense. But does it make sense? Really? Isn’t that also oppressive? Can’t I talk about what is my fee compared to your fee? 

Linzy [00:19:23] Mmhmm. 

Silvana [00:19:24] To make sure that we are being paid a fair amount. Yeah. Because if I know how much you make and it’s way less than what I make – again, doesn’t equate my worth. Right. But still, can I go to that company, to that insurance company and request for, for an increase. But if I don’t know. 

Linzy [00:19:41] Yeah, that silence is disempowering, right? Yes. It kind of keeps people apart. And it almost makes me think like, you know, because I’m thinking about capitalism right now and it makes me think almost like they’re stopping you from unionizing. 

Silvana [00:19:52] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:19:53] Right. They’re stopping the clinicians from getting together and being like, just a second, why is this person getting 87 and this person’s getting 77? That’s not fair. That doesn’t make sense. 

Silvana [00:20:00] Completely. 

Linzy [00:20:01] That silence keeps people apart. 

Silvana [00:20:03] Exactly. Exactly. Which is, again, very. Very oppressive, Right? The idea of oppression is the fact that you are over here in your world and I am over here in my world, but we’re not together in community supporting each other so that we can effect positive change, whatever that looks like. Right. And that silence really is detrimental to community and to being together and to connecting. 

Linzy [00:20:28] Absolutely. Yeah. So another piece, you know, thinking about oppressive systems is is white supremacy. And I’m curious from your perspective, like, how does capitalism and also white supremacy, how does that affect the relationships that clinicians can have to money and to being successful when they have actually done the work to build up a successful practice? 

Silvana [00:20:50] Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great question. And again, I think it’s tied to what we have, what we’ve been talking about because at least for clinicians, right, the idea of existence within a white supremacy culture, it’s the idea of we have grown up and we have received this message that there is a norm, right. For clinicians it’s the fact that we all learn, or 99% of us, if not 100% of us, we learn Western white psychology and we live in a Western white patriarchal system, right? And it’s not until someone points that out that we realize sometimes that we realize that something is wrong or it’s not until we are experiencing so many illnesses and so many stressors that we realize that something is wrong. So I think that capitalism and that white supremacy culture also affects us, affects us as clinicians and especially clinicians of marginalized identities, because it’s again, it’s this pushback of this is the norm and this is how things are supposed to be and this is how therapy is supposed to be done. And they serve the expectations and the requirements, and this is how you should conduct yourself and this is how you’re supposed to be professional. And these are the conversations that you can have and these are the conversations that you cannot have. 

Linzy [00:22:20] Right. 

Silvana [00:22:20] Right. So, again, as a clinician, maybe in the beginning, I don’t realize that I am doing this, but I am code switching to fit this norm of the – I will say it again – of the evidence-based practice and a treatment that lasts a 10 to 30 sessions or, you know, this very many hours of work. And the fact that I am not supposed to talk about money or I should not prioritize money because shame on me for thinking of money. I should be thinking about my clients and I should be thinking about the next training that I am going to take. 

Linzy [00:22:58] Right. 

Silvana [00:22:59] So that I continue my professional development. So I think it’s very tied to what we were talking about before, and it is very toxic because again, I have nothing against evidence based practices. They are very useful for certain people. Right? And I have nothing against the ten session treatment. It’s also very useful depending on the challenge that you have. And I have nothing against the fact that you may be more or less open to talking about money, but as long as you are educated around money, that’s that’s great, right? But it’s the fact that we have these expectations from the culture and from the system and from the norms. And I think that we should question those expectations. And I should have this conversation with myself of, am I okay with this or not? And if I am not okay, what can I do different that is not harming others, right? Because as long as it’s not harming others, why can’t I do things differently? Or why can’t I operate differently? Or why can’t I have a different relationship to my practice, to money, to myself, to my clients, etc., etc., etc.? 

Linzy [00:24:10] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, when you’re talking about- I’m kind of picturing as like, you know, white supremacy is like this box and it’s like, stay in the box. You can’t step outside the box because anything outside of the box is lesser-than. 

Silvana [00:24:21] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:24:22] A certain way of doing things and evidence based practice. And, you know, I remember thinking back in the day when I was practicing like, well, yeah, but who has the money to pay for evidence, right? Like, which, which modalities get the funding to gather evidence to be evidence-based design. Like who are they benefiting? Exactly. You know, like these, these bigger questions, it’s like, you know, the white supremacy is like, get in the box. Don’t think about it. Don’t talk about it. And if you are deviating from this, you’re not good. You’re not as good. You know, you’re lesser-than and like, yeah, it’s something else that I, you know, was also kind of coming into mind as you were talking about. This is- I saw a list of like the tenets of white supremacy, and one of them is perfectionism, right? Like, that’s one of the things that holds it in place. And like, that’s something I see so much. Clinicians struggle with this. It’s like needing to be perfect, needing to be good, like not even wanting to work on their relationship with money because it’s like it’s such a mess. It’s embarrassing. It’s shameful. I don’t know what I’m doing, so I’m just going to stay over here where I’m good at this thing because I need to be perfect. I need to be perfect, like the tightness that comes with that and like the lack of connection or curiosity or like, willingness to kind of like, learn and stumble and feel your way through something is also part of white supremacist culture. You’re not allowed to deviate or make mistakes. 

Silvana [00:25:38] Definitely. 

Linzy [00:25:39] Or be like a work in progress. 

Silvana [00:25:41] Oh, yes, work in progress. I love that. Yeah, I bet that many of us have Googled, you know, white supremacy culture or the what is it, the iceberg, I believe they call it, of white supremacy culture. On top you have like racism and all of this big -isms and phobias. But in the bottom or under the surface, you have things such as perfectionism, right? That some of us may think, well, of course, that sounds like a good idea. I am trying to be better day after day, but the idea of perfectionism is so unattainable, and it’s the idea of being perfect compared to this norm again. Right. And it’s a norm that not everybody fits. Right? 

Linzy [00:26:24] Exactly. Yes. 

Silvana [00:26:25] I am not white. If I am not neurotypical, if I am not sane, if I am not, you know, a citizen, etc. and so many more things, then I am not going to fit that idea of the norm. And so this perfectionism becomes so unhealthy. Right. And like you’re saying, I can feel so much shame because of the things that I don’t know and that I am assuming that others know. And yeah, I’d rather stay here in in what I know in my comfort zone. Right. Because it’s so comfy as opposed to going to my learning zone where I can realize things can be different and they can have a different relationship to again, to money, to my practice, to everything that I do. And that gives you so much more space and it gives you so much more energy to do things and to continue thinking differently in a way that it’s not harming anybody. It’s pushing against the system as it is, you know, but it just allows you to have so much more space and a healthier relationship with everyone and everything that you are interacting with. 

Linzy [00:27:33] Yeah, I mean, like a word that you’ve said multiple times during our conversation is like, like connection. And I think so much of what, you know, we’re talking about today with like capitalism and white supremacy and and even I think our lack of education around money, there’s like lack of connection, connection, lack of connection to self, to your community, maybe even to your clients, because you’re practicing in a way that’s not authentic to you or that’s not going to reach them because it’s within certain norms that don’t fit for them. And I’m curious, like, is connection an antidote for some of these systems or are there other things you think about that are like, you know what? Like what do we would have folks do instead? And I say “we” and it’s not an equal “we”, right, like as you’re talking about perfectionism, like I’m looking at my extremely pale face on our recording and it’s like as you were talking earlier about that, like imposter syndrome and like needing to strive and be more and do more, that’s not equal across the board, right? Like I as a white person start way ahead in terms of being ideal or perfect or like being able to be recognized as successful than so many other folks. Right. But I’m curious like, yeah, what do you see as, as the balance to this or what are, what are folks to do to offset living in these systems? 

Silvana [00:28:47] It may sound simple, but I think that the balance is finding connection and relationships and community. And by connection I mean connection to everyone and everything. Right. And I don’t mean I need to find a best friend and I need to find a buddy or I need to find a peer. We think of connection and we think of relationships as other people or the people around me and sometimes myself, right? I definitely need to be in connection with myself. I need to know what I need, what I want. I need to know what my boundaries are. The things that we discuss with our clients. Right? I need to apply that to myself as well. I need to be in connection with the people around me, whether those are family members or friends or my coworkers. And I am not saying befriend everyone. But the idea of being in connection is understanding who this person is, understanding what my identities are, maybe not understanding or experiencing the identities of my coworkers or peers or friends, but understanding that there’s a gap between me and them. Right. And understanding that because of that gap, I have had a certain set of experiences and they have had a certain set of experiences. Neither is better or worse than the other. It’s just a set of experiences that we’ve had, and those experiences are either more privileged or less privileged, right? But we don’t think about our relation sometimes. We don’t think about our relationship to things, right? My relationship to my practice and my relationship to the board and my relationship to this set of rules from my governing body, the ACA or the Social Worker Association or the one for LMFTs. And I don’t think of my relationship to money or to all the other things that I need in my practice, right? How am I feeling towards that and how are my paths or my different identities feeling towards that? What are the messages that I have received? How would I like to change that relationship in a way that would make me more content or more satisfied with the values that I hold? So that is something that we sometimes don’t think about, right? So again, I’m not talking about necessarily befriending everyone, but just being in connection because then I can understand better what the other person needs, what I need, what are my- again, the boundaries that I want to set and the needs that I have. And I think that’s very important to be in community, to be in connection, because then they can understand that I am not alone, that I’m not the imposter, that people around me are also dealing with perfectionism and- just like group therapy, maybe that can help decrease the shame or the guilt or the frustration or whatever other feeling that I am having. I can understand that those feelings are more universal and that it is more about the systems that I am living in. It is not about the people so much, but about the systems and how we have made that system so okay when it shouldn’t. And that would empower me to actually question the system as opposed to question myself. Right. So I start thinking maybe there’s nothing wrong with me, maybe there’s everything wrong with the system that I am living in that is asking so many things of me that don’t make sense. 

Linzy [00:32:17] Absolutely. Yeah. And it makes me think about earlier you mentioned, you know, about like, insurance companies, not you’re not supposed to communicate with a neighbor next to you, like your peers, about your fees. And it’s like, yeah. Because when we do that, we realize like, oh, there’s this weird, unfair thing happening here that’s not actually because of me. Like, I’m not only getting paid $55 an hour because I’m a bad clinician and I can’t support my family and all these things that these shame spirals that we can expect. But like, oh, there’s like this uneven kind of injust system at play. That by connecting with others, you could actually illuminate that experience rather than having you be the problem.  

Silvana [00:32:57] Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. If we are in isolation, we can start thinking that we are the problem or that there’s something wrong with us. Right. But if we are connected, we can start realizing that, oh, there are other people unfortunately having the same or a similar experience to the one that I am having. Therefore, what’s the thing that needs to change here? Is it us? Or is it the, you know, the systems in place that we’re living in? 

Linzy [00:33:23] Right. Yeah. The problem is not that you are not good enough. 

Silvana [00:33:27] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:33:27] Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Silvana, thank you so much for joining me today. Of course, if folks are listening, want to get further into your world, where’s the best place for them to find you? 

Silvana [00:33:38] Sure they can find me at WWW dot seventh self consulting dot com or they can also find me on Instagram and my handle there is Decolonize your practice. 

Linzy [00:33:54] That’s a great handle. 

Silvana [00:33:56] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:33:56] Great. Thank you. It’s been great talking with you today. 

Silvana [00:34:00] It was nice talking to you as well. 

Linzy [00:34:15] In my conversation with Silvana, something that really stuck out to me is that the double whammy that folks get when you’re marginalized in any way or, you know, multiple marginalization depending on your identity, and then also a therapist at the same time. It’s like from two different sources, you know, based on your identity, but then also based on your profession, you get the message over and over again that you’re not good enough and you need to strive and you need to be perfect and your needs are not important and other people’s needs are. And just how- what a powerful cocktail that is in the worst sense of the word, getting those messages in all these different ways and how that deeply impacts people as clinicians, as people living their lives, but also deeply impacts your financial well-being. Right? Your ability to make the money that you need to make, relate in positive ways to the money that you make, are deeply impacted by these messages that, you know, people get it from all sides. So I really appreciated this conversation today with Silvana. And if you are curious about her, definitely check her out. We’re going to put her links in the show notes so you can get further into her world. If you’re enjoying the podcast, as I mentioned at the beginning, please do leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. It’s super helpful. It means a lot to me. I’m going to be sharing more reviews this season in season five and I would love to share your review. So take a minute and jump over to Apple Podcasts, leave review. And of course, if you want to hear more from us, you can also follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. Thank you for listening today.