Maegan [00:00:03] Slow is sustainable. And I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances, and the way that you are modeling, both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach, that you can’t have one without the other. You can’t have skills without the stories. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Welcome to the season finale episode for the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And for our season finale, we decided something a little bit different, which is that my business bestie, Maegan Megginson is here. Hi, Maegan. Welcome. 

 

Maegan [00:01:18] Hi, Linzy. I’m so excited. 

 

Linzy [00:01:20] Me too. So just to, you know, mix it up a little bit, do something a little different for this episode, Maegan’s going to interview me about Money Skills for Therapists and, like, how my thinking about money has evolved over time. So, Maegan, you and I now have known each other- I wanna round up because that’s like, you know, I want to make it big. 2017 is when we met. So we’re coming up on six years now. 

 

Maegan [00:01:45] Happy anniversary.  

 

Linzy [00:01:46] Happy anniversary almost – in November – of being friends of like, watching each other’s businesses develop and grow. And like, I mean, we for a little while there, you and I, just us, we masterminded every week. Is that right? 

 

Maegan [00:01:59] Right. 

 

Linzy [00:01:59] Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:02:00] We had a lot to talk about. 

 

Linzy [00:02:01] We had a lot to talk about. So we spent a lot of time together watching each other’s businesses grow and evolve. And so it felt like really natural fit to have you come on to put me in the interviewee seat, which I’m about to occupy, and have you dig into my brain a little bit. 

 

Maegan [00:02:18] Linzy, I’m so honored to be here. It was just such a delight to receive this text from Linzy saying, Hey, do you want to interview me on my podcast? And I was like, Yeah, that’s an easy yes. So I’m so honored to be here and I’m very excited to interview you and just spotlight all of the amazing things about you and let people see- your audience see you, in maybe a way that they haven’t seen you, but that I get to see you all the time. So I feel so lucky that I get to share you with your people for a minute. 

 

Linzy [00:02:51] No pressure. Here we go. 

 

Maegan [00:02:53] Are you ready? 

 

Linzy [00:02:53] I’m ready. 

 

Maegan [00:02:54] Well, Linzy, welcome to my podcast. 

 

Linzy [00:02:57] Thank you so much for having me. 

 

Maegan [00:02:58] Oh, I’m so glad that you’re here. And I have so many questions to ask you today. I mean, first of all, this is- we’re wrapping up season what of the podcast. 

 

Linzy [00:03:07] That’s an excellent question. Maegan. I’m going to say we are wrapping up season six. 

 

Maegan [00:03:11] Oh, my gosh. 

 

Linzy [00:03:12] Well, yes, we do 12-episode seasons, right? So, yeah, I think we’re coming into I think this will be episode 72.  

 

Maegan [00:03:20] Oh, my God, 72 episodes. Okay, you know what? We don’t. We don’t need to check. 

 

Linzy [00:03:24] We don’t need to check. I just got my calculator. 

 

Maegan [00:03:26] Nobody’s going to fact check us on this. So this was episode 789 of Money Skills For Therapists. No, congratulations on six successful seasons. 

 

Linzy [00:03:35] Thank you. 

 

Maegan [00:03:37] That is such a tremendous accomplishment and it’s been such an honor for me to be behind the scenes since 2017 when we went to this coaching mastermind program together and we both started building our next level businesses at the same time. So I’ve had a backstage pass to watch the evolution of Money Skills for Therapists, and I know that Money Skills is coming up on its fourth birthday, which is pretty amazing in the online space. Not many things, courses, programs are around for four years. So congratulations.  

 

Linzy [00:04:12] Thank you. Thank you. And that’s four years with like a break. It’s like I made a course, ran it twice, and then, like, had a baby, did that for a year, and then now- yeah, like, since 2020. Since since COVID is when I launched, like, the latest version of the course. We’ve been running it constantly, nonstop. 

 

Maegan [00:04:28] Yeah. And I just. Just to brag on you. Like the fact that you came back from a maternity leave and kept investing time and energy and the same program that you created before you left, it still had legs when you got back and you know you were out for a year. Like you were- like a solid year. You were off the grid of the Internet. 

 

Linzy [00:04:47] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:04:48] And you came back and Money Skills was still so solid and people were hungry for it. They missed it. I mean, that really speaks to the strength of the program that you’ve created. 

 

Linzy [00:04:59] Thank you. You’re welcome. 

 

Maegan [00:05:01] And I guess what I’m wondering right now is, you know, what have you noticed evolving or changing around money, How you think about money, how you talk about money, in the four years that you’ve been teaching Money Skills? 

 

Linzy [00:05:17] Yeah. What I think about – the kind of image that comes to mind for me – is there’s like this like deepening and sinking in about money that I have done in the course of teaching the course, like when I first made Money Skills for Therapists. So this would have been in 2018 January was the first cohort. Right. So like you and I met and then 2018 is when I ran the very first cohort. There was actually nothing in the course specifically about mindset. So it’s like we would do it on calls, right? Like organically. And like when I first ran the course, it was six weeks. It was really like drinking out of a firehose. 

 

Maegan [00:05:51] Right? 

 

Linzy [00:05:52] So now all in, you know, folks like, you know, would be like really fully just kind of like soaking it in for six weeks. And so in those calls, naturally of course, like mindset stuff would come up or like emotions would come up and like, you know, folks would cry and like, all those pieces would happen. But like, I actually hadn’t built anything into the course curriculum specifically about, like your relationship with money, which now that I look back, I’m like, right. There was like such a- it’s not an oversight, but it was just like something that maybe it’s because I was a therapist, I was just like, obviously we’re going to dig into this in real life. But given it was such a core piece of the curriculum that wasn’t there when I started and wasn’t baked in like I was. So when I started, I was so about just like spreadsheets and like empowering therapists and this side, like giving them tools. But I feel like the mindset stuff and the relationship pieces and even the way I talk about that has deepened and changed a lot over the four years. I’ve developed language that I just did not have back when I started the course. 

 

Maegan [00:06:50] I mean, what I’m hearing is that in the first iteration of Money Skills, emotions and mindset were secondary to skills and curriculum. 

 

Linzy [00:06:59] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:06:59] And what you discovered pretty quickly in working with people through the program was like, wait a minute, like the ratio is off here. Like we need to really. 

 

Linzy [00:07:08] Exactly. 

 

Maegan [00:07:09] Prioritize emotions and mindset because, you know, I think what you and I know and talk about to each other a lot is you can’t actually do really deep work around money without a willingness to look at the relational aspect of currency. 

 

Linzy [00:07:24] Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s like the ratio was off. But even I think the order of operations, right? So like what I now understand and believe very firmly about money is that relationships actually has to come first, right? What I have learned over the course of teaching Money Skills over the last four years is it’s that relationship piece to money, right? It’s the stories that we have. It’s the trauma that we carry in our body is related to money. And like the previous negative experiences, those pieces actually make us unable to learn. Right? And so I think at the beginning I didn’t understand like, no, we really have to like, sit here and like really name this and bake this into every call and everywhere we talk about it. But also baked into the curriculum like this is first. First is understanding like, what are you carrying, what are the stories, what is the trauma, like what do you need to take to therapy and what are things that you can work out here in real time? Then it starts to create that opening, like that little bit of calming in our brains that allows us to start to learn. 

 

Maegan [00:08:23] It feels like a lot of what you’re saying right now comes directly from your experience as a trauma therapist. 

 

Linzy [00:08:29] Yes, that’s true. Which actually makes it a little bit laughable that I didn’t make it in at the beginning. I know. Like, that makes sense. 

 

Maegan [00:08:36] Well, you know, and I think this is something that we have both reflected on in the last year of how like when we originally shifted out of private practice mode and into a business kind of beyond our therapy practices, there was a part of us that had to go all the way to the other side of the spectrum. I was like, okay, this is not therapy anymore. This is something else. I am teaching something now. But as time goes on, I think we’re both kind of finding our way back to our roots. And this is that’s what this is for me. It’s like, Oh, like you needed that trauma foundation all along to really make this a very complete ecosystem. 

 

Linzy [00:09:15] Yeah. And I think too, like when I first started, like, I wanted it to just not be trauma therapy. It’s like, I want to do not trauma therapy. 

 

Maegan [00:09:22] I’m trying to get away from that. 

 

Linzy [00:09:24] Yeah, like my therapist at the time. Like therapist who did some supervisory stuff with me too. It’s like I remember talking with her about my idea, like when I came up with the idea for Money Skills for Therapists. I don’t think people necessarily knew how to respond, right? Like, I didn’t necessarily get the warmest responses from everybody. And I remember my therapist being like, Well, it’s just going to be trauma. Like you’re just going to end up talking to people about trauma. Like it felt very like squishing my idea down. I mean, it reminds me of the guy that I dated before the man I eventually married who was like, Why would you be a therapist in private practice? There’s so many of those. Like, the world doesn’t need those. It’s like, Well, he was extremely wrong. And like, my therapist was wrong too, in terms of like, it’s not just trauma. Like, I’m not just doing trauma therapy with people. Like there are concrete skills and there’s language and there’s education that we’re missing. But yeah, I think I was probably trying to get away from the trauma pieces and being like, this is going to be fine. And then ultimately, of course, it’s a deep, important part of the work to let therapists actually learn money. 

 

Maegan [00:10:20] When we’re tired of therapy. Because we’re therapists. I feel like we want to escape it and we’re really quick to discount the incredible magic that we wield as therapists. Our understanding of trauma, of the nervous system, of internalized beliefs, that this is the core of all work that you will ever do on anything in your entire life. Like you cannot separate running your business or your finances or raising your kids. You can’t separate this stuff from what’s happening at the very center of you. And I’m hearing that that is the biggest evolution that you have made inside of Money Skills is really positioning the emotional, the mindset, the understanding of the trauma story, front and center on the Money Skills journey. And I’m just curious, as you’ve made that transition, what kind of results are people getting, different from the results they were getting before that was part of the process? 

 

Linzy [00:11:18] Mm hmm. Like, what I see now is I see folks getting similar results. But what’s different is they get to do that work more inside the course in community, even making the course- the course is now a six-month course in terms of the support that they get. Folks can work through the modules at their own pace. Right. Which also I think is more flexible to the way that people learn. And some people do jump in and like do three modules in like almost never once a week, truthfully. So never as fast as I used to teach it. But some folks do jump in and like move really fast. But then when they hit a wall, the wall is almost inevitably that emotional mindset. The stories come up, it gets hard. The part that thinks that you know, that tells them that they’re stupid pops up and starts getting really loud and they disengage. But then there’s like the time to come back, right? So what I see is the way that we teach it now with really like holding emotional space. And my coach, who works for me, used to be Heather and now Diane, both amazing. Their calls have been just mindset calls like they don’t do the more practical stuff that we do in some of the other calls, like it’s just mindset. And so what I see now is like, folks get to do a lot more of that work actually inside our course and inside our community rather than I think what was happening before with my earlier students is they would get a lot of like the learning from me and we would do a little bit of that processing, but then they would take it to therapy, they would take it to their business buddies. Like they would keep working on it after the course. And so what’s also nice too, with the course being longer now, is I get to see and be with folks through that work because it does take time. Whereas like some of my earlier students, some of my students who had incredible results and like are now, you know, my testimonials. I remember one of my students like our our one on one call, which we had at the end of her six weeks. She was so anxious and overwhelmed and her computer wasn’t working and she was like nearly in tears trying to get it working so she could get the most of our call. And like, you know, I came off that call being like, Oh, I hope that she’s able to, like, solidify these things. And she did, but she had to do it later outside of the container of the course. Whereas now folks are able to do that, like settling in and that shifting and that healing and that basically like rewriting of identity inside of the course instead. 

 

Maegan [00:13:23] Wow. Rewriting your identity. 

 

Linzy [00:13:26] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:13:26] That’s pretty huge. I would say that’s a pretty huge shift in what you are offering in Money Skills than when you started. So I’m just going to share these two reflections. It isn’t just the prioritizing of the emotional experience and the trauma stories and the narratives. It’s also it’s doing that in a container that allows for a slower, more sustainable pacing. And I think this is something you and I talk a lot about in the online space in general. Is that so so much of what we’re sold is flash in the pan, really fast. You know, come in, six weeks and you’re going to have your whole life is going to be completely different. And that’s not true. Like that almost literally never happens. Yeah, slow is sustainable and I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances and the way that you are modeling both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach that you can’t have one without the other, you can’t have skills without the stories. Those two things really go together. So thank you for those reflections. I have another question. 

 

Linzy [00:14:38] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:14:39] Are you ready? 

 

Linzy [00:14:40] I’m ready. 

 

Maegan [00:14:41] I want to know. You and I talk a lot about money in our friendship. Like money as a concept, money- I mean, our conversations definitely, like, tilt philosophical most of the time. So I want to know when it comes to money, like what is one of the most common misnomers or myths or misunderstandings that clients bring into Money Skills? 

 

Linzy [00:15:01] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, to go with that identity piece, I think probably one of the most common misunderstandings about money that I see folks come in with is, like, this idea of, like, I’m not a money person, right? That there’s, like, money people and those people are just, like, good at money. And they’ve always been good at money and they’re good at math. And that therapists are not that. Right. We are something else. And I will say it is absolutely true that there is like natural ability that pops up in different areas, right? Like my brother is like brilliant with mechanics. He can look inside like and look at a van engine and like, think about how it works and figure out how to fix it. By looking at it. I look at a van engine and I’m like, That’s a lot of stuff and we’re gonna close the hood. The fact that I even just accessed the word hood, I’m pretty proud of. I have to say. 

 

Maegan [00:15:51] So some of us are naturally. 

 

Linzy [00:15:53] There’s like that natural. But I think that it’s the idea that that it can’t be learned right, that it’s. 

 

Maegan [00:15:58] Like you either have it or you don’t. 

 

Linzy [00:15:59] There’s people who do this and I can’t do this. Right. And what I reflect to folks and I was just having a conversation on a call last week with a student about this, talking about her experience of like getting kind of like overwhelmed and having trouble getting started. And I think whenever there’s, like, it’s hard to sit down and work on something or it’s hard to keep up momentum. Like, it’s a sign that there’s there’s friction there and it’s like being curious about what it is. And like when we dug in to it together, it’s like she has this story that she’s like, stupid, right? She’s stupid. And this is a story I hear a lot. I hear the stupid story a lot. And applying like the idea that therapists are stupid is like so far from reality. You know. 

 

Maegan [00:16:36] We’re literally the smartest people on the whole planet. 

 

Linzy [00:16:38] Yeah. Not. Not to be biased. 

 

Maegan [00:16:39] Literally. 

 

Linzy [00:16:41] We’re brilliant. In the coaching that I did with her on our group call was like, I just like, slowed her down and reflected on like, So there’s this part of you. It feels like you’re stupid. And usually it’s a very young part, right? Usually those are things that like, you know, I used to call my brother stupid when we were kids. I’m sure he’s got a part that I created, you know, because of that, like name calling, because he struggled in school. And we end up with these parts when we’re really little. But like as we zoomed out and like, she zoomed out more on her life experience, she has three master’s degrees, like the amount of like learning and pushing through and bending your brain and retaining new information that you have to do for three master’s degrees is phenomenal, right? And so money, it’s like it might not be your natural tuning, but like most of it is arithmetic. Truly. It’s like addition, subtraction, like maybe a little multiplication to, like, make it interesting. And therapists absolutely have the intellectual capacity to learn it. And we also have the capacity to set up good systems and make it work for us. But it’s it’s getting over that idea that you are this or you aren’t this. Like you can grow into this. It’s that growth edge, right? Like growth mindset. And I think so many therapists – and you and I, I know, have this kind of history – as people like tend to be perfectionists, tend to be people who want to be good at things right away. You know, like your- what was the award? You won the best at everything award? 

 

Maegan [00:17:56] Yes, it’s true. 

 

Linzy [00:17:57] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Maegan won that in high school. 

 

Maegan [00:18:00] Eighth grade. 

 

Linzy [00:18:00] Eighth grade. Eighth grade. Yeah. I was also the fifth grader of the year. Just to add my award to the pile. 

 

Maegan [00:18:06] These are the quote. I’m using air quotes. These are like the awards and accolades that just like, really mess us up deeply inside. 

 

Linzy [00:18:15] The only thing that I enjoyed about getting the grade five of the year award is that I beat my crush who was also a contender and I beat him and beating boys at things is something I enjoyed deeply, still to this day. Beating men at board games is one of my greatest joys. But yeah, so that story, like not being a money person or that money is not important to you. Like money’s not- you’re not a money person in the sense of like, it’s just like not something that is important. Like those are all things that really have to be, like, troubled because I just think they’re they’re just not true and they really limit us. Those kinds of stories limit us deeply in our ability to make our lives work. Truthfully. 

 

Maegan [00:18:51] I really appreciate how you’re normalizing that. We all have parts that pipe up when it comes to money in math. And you know, we all have them. No one, even people who are good at math, might have mindset struggles with money when it comes to scarcity. Right. Do I have enough? You know, so I think I have yet to meet a single human on this planet who has, you know, a perfectly clean slate when it comes to managing money and thinking about money. And I just want to take this and expand it a little bit because I feel like another thread here that you’re weaving into this conversation is the way people think about money conceptually, right? There’s all the baggage that we bring in and all the stories we tell ourselves, you know, like I’m not a math person and you’re saying so clearly right now, stop it. Like, money skills are learnable for everyone. So we’re just kind of like, you know, we’re like, that conversation is done. Yes, you can learn this is as possible for you. Yeah, but it doesn’t solve yet philosophically how people understand money and how people think about money as people and as business owners. What do you have to say about that? 

 

Linzy [00:20:03] Yeah, So, you know, this is also something that I think I’ve thought of over time and obviously had lots of conversations with folks about money. And I had this kind of revelation, you know, I’m a verbal processor, so sometimes I talk myself into an answer like I, I don’t know what’s going to come out of my mouth. And then I’m like, Oh, that sounds good. Yeah. I really summed up a lot of what’s been swirling around in my brain. So I was being interviewed recently by Dr. Liz Lasky for a summit that she’s doing, and I really enjoyed my conversation with her a lot. And she brought up this this idea. She was like, you know, a lot of my my students say that, like, money is just not a value for them, right? It’s just not important to them. It’s not something that they value. And she was like, you know, what do you say to like this idea of like money’s just not something that’s not a value for everybody. And like, I had this really strong response to it and I was like, like money is not a value. Like if we looked at the list of values, like if you put like Brené Brown’s list of values, money is not on there and it should not be on there because money is not an end unto itself. And that’s what I really like conceptually started to really deepen into. You know, as we’re talking all these mindset pieces, like money is a tool. Right. Like my dad loves woodworking, so he collects saws, but saws are not what’s important to him. Saws are not a value. He doesn’t- he isn’t like, what’s important in my life is saws. What’s important in his life is creativity, using his hands, giving gifts to people that he made from his heart, connection and family, like that’s what it’s about, right? and I think with money, we confuse the vehicle or the tool. We think that the vehicle and the tool is the end unto itself. And it’s not at all. Like money has no meaning in and of itself. I think it’s completely how we relate to it. You know, these pieces hanging about earlier. It’s what you do with it, and it’s how you use it to enact your actual values that gives it meaning and purpose and brings it to life. 

 

Maegan [00:21:58] Yeah, Because, you know, like, money isn’t real. I remind myself of this, like, once a week. Like, we literally really made it up. Like, we made it up. And we all mutually agree that it’s a thing that we can barter with. Yeah. What you’re saying is really, really powerful. Money isn’t a value. Money is a tool that can support you in getting and creating the things that you actually do value in your life. But before we talk more about that, I want to know when people say things like, well, money’s not important to me. Money’s not a value for me. What do you think they’re actually saying? 

 

Linzy [00:22:32] They’re saying they’re afraid of money. They’re saying that money is bad. They’re afraid of power. They’re afraid of being one of the bad people who has power and therefore is abusing and exploiting other people. They’re saying that they don’t feel competent or they don’t trust themselves to have it. So they’re just told themselves that they don’t want it. I think there’s a kind of a disowning there of that that power. 

 

Maegan [00:22:55] I agree. And I would say that I think some people who say money’s not important to me, money’s not a value, are also people who are in the process of like deprogramming themselves from capitalism, and they’re just not on the other side of it yet, you know, because I think when you’re at the beginning of your journey of understanding your relationship with capitalism and patriarchy and all the things, it’s really easy to be like, smash the patriarchy, down with money. You know, we go into this like, rage angry place, which actually is not helpful. Yeah. So I think sometimes when people are like, money doesn’t- it’s not important to me. It’s not a value that I have. It’s really, to me, this little beautiful little flag that says like, Oh, great, now they’re doing the real work. It’s like really starting to figure out then like, Whoa, what is it? You know, and how do I fit this into my life in a way that is aligned with my values? Yeah. So on that note, I would love to know. What advice do you have for people who are in the place where they really are ready to examine their values and connect with the things that really matter to them? 

 

Linzy [00:23:56] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think about, you know, when you’re talking about folks in that place where they are pushing against something, they’re questioning their relationship with capitalism and other systems. It makes me think about it’s easy to put yourself in opposition like this is what I’m against. But ultimately, what makes the world better is like, What are you for? Yeah, right. And your values are about what are you for, right? What feeds you? What is what makes your life worthwhile? What do you want your legacy to be? And the legacy is not money. I really- like the more that I have, like, sat with this and the more that I’ve watched the accumulation of wealth, I have seen that just passing a bucket load of money onto your kids doesn’t actually necessarily guarantee anything about their happiness or success or even their love for you. Right. Like, I think we get so confused sometimes with like, well, family is a value, so I’m going to, like, save up tons and tons of money, I mean, to make lots of money so my kids have money. And again, we’re confusing the vehicle with the actual value, right? The destination. Right. And so it’s if you’re coming to that place of starting to think about what are you for? Like something that I’ve done with my students in Money Boss, when I ran that mastermind before. And then I talk about more with my like group practice owners because they’re more in that place of like they’ve usually done some foundational pieces and they’re getting more into how do you use this powerful tool that is now at your disposal? Is even challenging yourself to think about like a top three. Like, what are your top three values? Yeah, because there’s this whole, you know, piece about priorities. And, you know, I think many of us have heard by now this concept that there didn’t used to be a concept of priorities. You had a priority, you had one. And now when we think of priorities, we have a list of like 20 things that pops into our brain. It’s hard to get it down to one, but I find three is helpful in like, modern age. 

 

Maegan [00:25:48] All right. I’ll meet you in the middle. 

 

Linzy [00:25:49] I’ll meet you in the middle. You get three priorities, three values. And I find, like, looking at, you know, Brené Brown has that list of values which I use, you know, as a great starting place with folks. Just like, peruse that list. And like, what calls to you? Like, what is most important in your life? And values, I think can be abstracted or like, you know, put into certain contexts that make them very loaded. But it’s just a question like what is actually important to you? What’s the most important to you? Right? And what does that actually look like? Right. If family is important to you, what does family actually look like? What do you mean when you say that? It is that creating memories for your kids? Is that helping them like have ease as they go through school? Like, what does it mean? Like, how do you instrumentalize that? Because it’s so powerful to be living your values. And that for me is like ultimately where you get to once you work through all this, like once you go through the murky swamp of money work, right, and like start to have that trauma setting, start to think about new identities, start to like, set up your own systems to make money work for you in the way that your brain works. On the other side, you get to ask yourself, like, what really matters to me and how do I use this tool to get more of that or create more of that in my world? And it’s really it’s a very powerful place to get to. 

 

Maegan [00:27:04] It is powerful and it is really hard work. You know, I, I feel like sometimes people don’t- like values are especially – I’m thinking back to my early days training to be a therapist. And you know, we did like core values trainings and all of these and there’s this like lightness about it. You know, core values work. Oh, just do some values, right? Here’s some worksheets. And it it really missed the mark in terms of like how deep values work is and how, like, you can’t actually do values work without processing quite a lot of grief and regret. You know, when you really look yourself in the mirror and start to get honest about what is actually important to me in my life, usually we then have to grieve how much of that we haven’t held up to this point. So I guess I just want to add into this conversation for people who are starting to really drop in to a deep exploration of their values, make sure you’re well supported in community with your therapist, with your own friends and colleagues, with people who are really having this conversation with their own selves, so that when you do hit up against something that’s heavy or hard or there some grief, like you have someone to process that with, like that is such an important part of this process. Getting clear on what you value is – if I’m hearing you right – the only way to really understand the purpose money serves in your life. 

 

Linzy [00:28:29] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:28:30] And the other thing that that popped up for me listening to you talk about values is that most of the time- I haven’t looked at Brene Brown’s list of values. I will do that. But for me, most of the time, core values are connected to time in some way. Like most core values are connected to time. I want time with my family. I want time to be creative. I want time to tend to myself. And I think that that is the thing money does for me right now in my life is like having an abundance of money makes it possible for me to have more time to explore the things that really matter to me because I’m not kind of stuck in, you know, a 40 to 60 hour workweek, you know, serving clients or serving a boss. So that’s where my mind goes when I think about like, what’s- so if I’m clear on my values, like, what can money really do for me? Well, money can buy me like free time. Spaciousness. What other things come to mind for you? 

 

Linzy [00:29:27] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:29:27] What can money do for us? 

 

Linzy [00:29:29] That is definitely yours. As someone who knows you well and has also watched your evolution and something like you and I masterminded recently with some other, you know, therapist business friends in San Francisco when we were there. And something that I said to you in that mastermind is like, I- you are now the happiest that I’ve ever seen you. Like, I think you just you keep getting happier. And so much of that, I think, for you, has been claiming that time for yourself, right. Like, that’s something that is deeply important. And I think also for who you are as a person and just your energy and like what really feeds you. Topnotch value. And you’re definitely living that. Right. And I see how that pays off for you in so many ways. You know, when I think about myself, I think that sometimes I think that I want time and I do want time. But, you know, we were talking about this when we’re traveling together. I’m like a project person. I’m a creator. And so is my spouse, you know, my partner. And so that’s something that I see for us is like we are very like generative and we like to think about how to make the world better. And my partner is a city councilor as well, so he’s deep in the like, you know, like homelessness, the opioid crisis that we have happening in Canada, you know, how do we fix this? We think about these things a lot. And so I think for us too, it’s also a family value is is kind of creativity and creation, right? So and sometimes I do I delude myself into thinking, oh, and then I’ll have time. And everyone who knows me well is like, Oh, you’re going to fill that with a project. 

 

Maegan [00:30:51] Well, but I think this is really important that you have to have time to engage in those projects. That having time doesn’t mean having time to sit around and do nothing. 

 

Linzy [00:31:03] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:31:04] Having time means having time to do whatever it is that you identified is your core value. And I think like that this is the biggest thing we stand to gain as business owners, as people who do control our own schedule, and we do control the way that we make money. We have the ability to create time in our lives, to do our values, to live our values in a way that people who are employed do not. In the way who people are, you know, not running their business in creative and sustainable ways, do not. So, yeah, I just want to make that clarification that it’s money can afford you time not to be working in your business so that you can explore your values outside of your business and whatever feels right for you. 

 

Linzy [00:31:50] I think about that too, as you were talking earlier, about how like when you really look at your values, there’s going to be grief and you’re going to have to like accept where those values have not been present. And what I think about is, is the next piece of this is you’re also going to have to be honest with yourself about making decisions, like actually prioritizing. Oh, yeah, right. I think we we do very much live in a, like, we want to have it all society where it’s like, oh, I want to have time to like, enjoy my kid while they’re young. But also, I mean, I feel really frustrated if I need to take time off to be with them because I could have been making a thousand dollars that day. Right. So it’s like really being honest with yourself of like, wait a second, what actually matters to you right now? And that’s a conversation I remember having with a coaching client at one point, like, this is a gift, right? The fact that we do work for ourselves and we can make the choice to say like, Hey, my kid was sick, I’m going to be home with her and just let her sleep on me all day. You know, when we’re so driven by this idea of what success looks like and it’s like I should be making money because I could be making money. We miss the fact of, like, you’re winning. Like your family has enough that you’re okay and you get to be home with your kid and they don’t have to be like, you know, at daycare or like with a babysitter when they’re feeling really sick and they just want their parents. Right. Like that is winning. Like that is you actually living your priorities if that is, you know, one of your priorities. But it’s like, we do have to make hard decisions ongoingly to make sure that we are actually living those values because there is always going to be this noise of like, but you could be more productive, you could be making more money, right? Like you could be getting money to buy that nice thing that the person next door has, like the keeping up with the Joneses is real. And it looks different now because now it’s social media and it’s Instagram and whatever. 

 

Maegan [00:33:30] Lifestyle creep is real. 

 

Linzy [00:33:32] Lifestyle creep is very real. 

 

Maegan [00:33:33] So to reflect, it starts with really naming what your values actually are, and you’re giving people three, three. They can have three.  

 

Linzy [00:33:44] You can have three.Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:33:44] That’s it. No more, no less. Now identify three values that- this is a question I posed to my clients a lot. It’s a little bit morbid, but, you know, like, life is not infinite. If you found out that you were going to die tomorrow, like, how would you spend your last 24 hours here? What would you look back on and regret not having done more of? Like that can be a very evocative way to begin to peel back the layers to find like, Well, what are these three core things that I really want to organize my life around. And what I want to just remind people of is that, like, your business exists to serve you and your family first and foremost. Your clients are secondary to you serving yourself. So when you identify these three core values that you really want to organize your life around, your next job as a business owner is to figure out how do I curate this business that I have so that it fuels and funds those things that I’ve identified as my core values. Yeah. And then you’re saying, Linzy, that’s when you can really answer the question, What does money mean to me and what can money do for me? Money is a thing that you make to serve the core values you’ve identified are most important to you. Am I getting that right?

 

Linzy [00:35:01] Yeah. And as we’re talking about those, too, the other word that comes up for me, which is one of my favorites, is like enough-ness. Like it’s also the root to enough-ness, because when you’re actually living your values in your life, you know, when you’re really doing the things that like feed you and that are rich and meaningful for you. And that’s different for every single one of us. When you have a lot of that in your life, the striving really quiets down, right? The illusion that like, Oh, if only this, then I’m going to feel satisfied, right? Because the truth is like you can build a life that gives you deep satisfaction. Now, I would say almost regardless of your financial situation, but by getting money working for you, you can get more of that into your world and you can be doing that without like sacrificing something else in the future, like your financial stability, your retirement, right? Like you can have both. You get to be present knowing that you have enough and you’re on track and everything’s okay, and you don’t need to be constantly pushing for more. 

 

Maegan [00:35:58] Oh, I think that is a really beautiful note for us to wrap up on this. Just this reminder that you you don’t have to spend the rest of your life pushing for more, that your worthiness as a human being is not attached to how much money you make or what your job title is or how many figures you can say your business earns every year. That that’s all nonsense. The money you’re generating through your business is a tool to fund the beautiful life that you are creating for yourself and for your family. Nothing more and nothing less. But coming full circle back to the beginning of our conversation. In order to do that, in order to be able to paint that picture, you have to have a foundational set of money skills to use so that you know how to run your business, you know how to categorize your finances and how to pay yourself appropriately, that those skills are really non-negotiable. If you want to create a sustainable business that funds your life. So it’s all of these pieces together, the emotional skills, the emotional stories, the processing of the trauma that comes for you around money. Balancing that all out with like actual strategic spreadsheet skills and understanding of like banking and like how to move money from one place to another. Moving that into how do I use this money that I now know how to organize the fund, the values that I have for my life? Am I getting that right? 

 

Linzy [00:37:37] You are. Yeah. I think the money is a you know, the skills I think of as a foundation. Right. To to bring a new metaphor into the mix. That’s your foundation upon which you’re stable, you’re secure. And then you can reach and expand and be present because you are. Right. Like, you do have everything covered. There is enough-ness. Like, true enough-ness. Your life is covered. There’s money going towards the future and you can just really sink into being in your life in the way that is actually going to feed you the most. 

 

Maegan [00:38:09] Linzy, this is really big stuff. And I just feel like if all business owners could hear this and really let it in, I’m not saying this to be dramatic. I literally mean, like the whole world would be such a better place, a kinder, gentler, more loving place, a happier place that like it starts here. And I’m so grateful that you exist and that you are here to share this wisdom and knowledge with people through this podcast. And it was such an honor and a privilege to be able to interview you today. So thank you for having me and thank you for just existing. It’s a real pleasure to know you. 

 

Linzy [00:38:47] Thank you. Maegan. This was really fun. I am so appreciative of Maegan for coming in and doing this interview with me to end what is actually season six. I did go back and check this is our final episode of season six of the Money Skills for Therapist Podcast. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. It was really fun to dig into those things with Maegan and to be the one being interviewed instead of the reverse. And if you are curious about money skills for therapists, we’ll put a link in the show notes to watch the masterclass. So there’s a masterclass that you watch, which gives you a feel for me and how I teach and what’s included in the course. It really walks through what’s included in the course. So we talk there about the six months of support that are now built into the way that we teach it and all the modules and all the content. And you can check out that masterclass to learn about Money Skills for Therapists, and also have the opportunity to join us if it calls to you. So thank you so much for joining us for the end of season six. We will be back with season seven in the fall. Gonna take a little break. And of course, you can follow us on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you have enjoyed this final episode or any of the episodes in season six of the podcast, I would so appreciate if you can go live review on Apple Podcasts so other therapists and health practitioners can find the podcast and be part of this conversation. Thanks so much for listening. 

Cynthia [00:00:01] For me, emotionally and physically, I needed something different. I would go to work and I think that’s where sometimes that security you have to question a little bit because just because it’s secure, it doesn’t mean that I’m happy going there, right? Or I feel good physically, emotionally going there. And so it wasn’t necessarily about the money, but more about I need to take care of my health. I need to feel good about the things that I’m doing. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today on the podcast we have a lovely guest who I will get to in a minute. But before I do, I wanted to share a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts. You know, I’m always asking you folks to share your reviews on Apple Podcasts. So I wanted to share one from user voluptuous coconut, which is a great screen name. They say, I’ve really enjoyed this podcast. The guests are super knowledgeable and Linzy has a lovely way of having conversations that are incredibly validating and supportive. I always look forward to a new episode because I know it’s going to be helpful, insightful, and even therapeutic. Such a wonderful little gem of a podcast. Thank you so much, voluptuous coconut, for your review. I really appreciate it. So today’s guest on the Many Skills for their Therapist podcast is Cynthia Agyeman-Anane. Cynthia is a therapist, but the way that Cynthia and I actually met is through a non-therapist presence that she has on Instagram, which is @talk_allaboutit. So it’s a channel that she has where she does not wear her therapist hat and just invites folks to have conversations about health and mental health and parenting. And I had a conversation with her a couple of months ago about money and just really enjoyed it. So I wanted to bring her on to the podcast to share her with all of you. Today, Cynthia and I talk about the different meanings that money can have. We talk about the relationship between security and freedom. We talk about the bind that folks can find themselves in when they are working for an institution like a hospital or working for someone else, and the kind of handcuffs of security and thinking about other ways that we can also think about security that might be more aligned with what’s actually best for us. And a theme throughout that you’re going to hear a lot is intention really thinking about how to bring intention into your practice and into your relationship with money to make it better, to actually make your private practice better than what you could get working for someone else in a more institutional setting. Here’s my conversation with Cynthia. So, Cynthia, welcome to the podcast. 

Cynthia [00:03:11] Thank you so much for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:13] Yeah, I’m so glad to have you. So we connected on Instagram, which I feel like is a sentence I’m saying more and more often these days. 

Cynthia [00:03:22] We definitely did, yes. 

Linzy [00:03:24] Can you tell folks who are listening about like what you do? 

Cynthia [00:03:28] Sure. So, hi, everybody. My name is Cynthia Agyeman-Anane and I’m a licensed therapist in the state of Maryland and D.C. And I have a private practice called Conversations Create Change, where we see individuals, families, couples, we deal with all sorts of issues from anxiety all the way to trauma. A lot of my individual work has to do with couples, so I’m a Gottman level three trained therapist. My passion project right now is definitely couples and working with couples. We met through my IG @talk_allaboutit where I get to kind of have a little bit of a creative space for myself away from work. So yeah. That’s where you can find me.  

Linzy [00:04:14] Yes. Talk all about it. Yeah. And you host conversations there with a variety of- 

Cynthia [00:04:19] I do host conversations there. 

Linzy [00:04:21] Yeah. 

Cynthia [00:04:22] Yeah. You know anything from you know, with you I talk to about money and private practice, but I also talk to other individuals around health care. Anything related to healing. I try to talk all about it because I honestly do believe, like, my business name is Conversations Create Change. I like to talk all about it. So anything, anything and everything. I feel like as long as we’re talking we’re healing and we’re learning something new. 

Linzy [00:04:49] Yes. And we’re going to do it now in this space talking about money. We’re planning to have a conversation and just digging into money because I think money is so. Well, I don’t think – I know – money is so personal. Right. And what drives us and the meaning of it, it varies so much from person. So let’s dig into what money has meant for you and its role in your private practice. So that’s my first question for you, which is very kind of open. But like for you, Cynthia, what does money mean to you? 

Cynthia [00:05:17] You know, that’s a really good question, Linzy, because for me, money means a few things. The first one that comes to mind is security, right? To some degree, because even going into private practice, part of the reason that I was a little bit hesitant at first is because I was working full time for a great company, great salary, great benefits. And out of all the the workings that we look for, right, when we’re going into our careers. And so going into private practice, there was a lot of unknowns around will I be secure in terms of when clients don’t show up? What if you get cancellations? What if, you know, people don’t show up in general? If you don’t see your client, you don’t get paid, right. So that’s the mindset going into it. So there was a lot of hesitation initially because again, for me, money is really a security and that’s one of the first things. The second one, for me, money’s freedom, right? Because it allows you to also have access to things that you normally wouldn’t have access to. And so for going into private practice, one of the things that money has allowed me in terms of freedom is the freedom to do what I want to do, right? So I know I’m not necessarily beholden to anybody if my own company is my own stuff with my own time. So it definitely allows me the opportunity to have a lot of freedoms around certain things that- even doing this, right, like I’m able to come talk with you right after this, I have a client, right? Yeah. Yes. I’m able to kind of schedule my schedule the way that I want to. And so that sense of freedom definitely, I think is something that money can buy for you, but it can give you the opportunities to create. 

Linzy [00:07:04] That’s a good distinction because I think sometimes that we do think that money automatically means a certain thing, like a certain amount of money equals happiness, or a certain amount of money equals financial security. So yeah, can you dig into that distinction a little bit? 

Cynthia [00:07:18] Yeah. So I think there’s a- it’s about how your intentions with it, right, because I used to have this family member, she passed away, she was like 99 years old, so she lived a really good life and she would always have this phrase that she would use. If you have $1,000,000 and you spend 1,000,001, you’re broke. Right? That phrase has always stuck with me because you’re going to have as much access as you want to money, but if you’re not using it wisely or you’re not being intentional with it, it definitely can create some stressors for you, right? Sure. Oh, I think, you know, it’s up to you to determine how you move with money or how you use money to benefit the lifestyle that you want to live or the choices that you want to make for business, personal life, and so forth and so on. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:08:09] Well, and that’s an interesting too, like thinking about money and security, because security is one of my words too, that I often think of, like what is money to me, Like it’s security. But as you say, it’s very much about how you use money that actually creates security. And it makes me think about like when you were talking about moving out of, you know, what can be considered like a golden handcuffs space where you have a job that has all the benefits and it has the pension and it has the guaranteed salary, and like it can feel like that’s very safe. But something that occurs to me is like even in that situation, if you’re not using your money strategically to create like other buffers for yourself, like emergency funds and investments, retirement savings, even that could go away because that’s not actually yours. Like the job isn’t yours. It doesn’t belong to you. Somebody can take it from you because it’s not actually something that you’ve created. You don’t own it. 

Cynthia [00:08:58] Mm hmm. And I you know, that’s so interesting because I feel like there’s sometimes, like a false sense of security, right, when we work for certain companies. So if we’re not careful that security, like you said, can handcuff us. Right. And kind of make us stuck and not unwilling to kind of move and be creative and challenge ourselves outside of our comfort zones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:09:22] Something else that sticks out to me is I think about your two words is they are two words that are almost like two different ends of a spectrum in a way they could be thought about. But I can also see how they layer. So I’m curious for you, like, why do you think, like, security and freedom are your two things or how those things relate for you? 

Cynthia [00:09:38] You know, I am learning more and more about myself, that I’m a more of a free spirit. And I, I don’t know, I guess, you know, after a while you start owning where you are and you just start, you know, becoming very comfortable and say, this is who I am. And so for me, the free spirit part comes in in terms of going into private practice. The thought was I would have more time and more, you know, access to with the family and other things that I wanted to do. And so I think it definitely it just security felt grounding in a way, right? Because I am a free spirit. I feel like, yes, I can have freedom and security grounds me in some way. Yeah, right. So I feel like those bookends of the other. But it works together, you know what I mean? 

Linzy [00:10:28] Yeah, Well, and like, okay, so here’s the imagery I have for it, because this is something that, as I said it, I was like, wait a second. No, no, I have a metaphor literally about this. So when I talk about it the way that I see some therapists talk about it when they are in that position, right, Like they are in that secure hospital job and they’re like, If I just stay for 15 more years, I get my pension payout. You’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s a long time to be committed, right? So it’s like for those folks, I think that they see like the security that they have in that job is right and the freedom of private practice is not safe because what makes it free is also the fact that it’s like less reliable, less predictable. Right. Like it’s not guaranteed. But the way that I’ve come to experience these things and I think it aligns with what you’re saying too, is like I see it more as like a tree where it’s like the security that we can create for ourselves is the roots. 

Cynthia [00:11:12] Is the foundation, right? 

Linzy [00:11:13] It gives us foundation. It’s foundation, right? And so it gives us stability and we can build that like our own tree. Can have that security, like the tree that we build with our spouse and our- that we have for our family. And from having strong roots and security, you can reach and expand, right? Like the bigger the roots, the bigger the branches. Right. And so but you need that secure foundation. And what we see sometimes is the folks like take big financial risks or big business risks and they don’t build in security. Then there’s the opportunity of bankruptcy and loss. And like all the things that we fear, right? Like losing everything when you don’t have the roots, then reaching really far doesn’t mean that you can topple. But I see this, like, beautiful kind of interaction, almost like a mirroring between those two things. 

Cynthia [00:11:59] I love that. 

Linzy [00:12:00] That makes both of them. Yeah, they’re the same thing. Yeah, that resonates. 

Cynthia [00:12:04] It does. And I love that. It’s such a beautiful imagery. Right. But yeah, and again, if the foundation is not firm and strong, right, you can branch out as much as you want to. And I feel like that’s- and going into private practice has definitely allowed me in a lot of ways to be intentional. Right? And not always. I don’t always get it right, but definitely being how far I want to reach and how, you know, how much freedom I want to kind of give myself. Right. There’s a beauty in that too. 

Linzy [00:12:37] Yeah. So I’m curious then, like thinking about your step into private practice. I’m hearing you were in this kind of like, traditional secure job and you stepped into private practice. What was the role of money in you deciding to take that step?  

Cynthia [00:12:49] You know. I don’t know if money was necessarily a factor in terms of like what I make more or what I make less. Right. It was more, again, going back to that sense of freedom in a sense for me emotionally and physically, I needed something different, right? I would go to work. And I think that’s where sometimes, that security, you have to question a little bit, right? Because just because it’s secure, it doesn’t mean that I’m happy going there. Right. Or I feel good physically, emotionally going there. And so it wasn’t necessarily about the money, but more about I need to take care of my health and I need to feel good about the thing that I’m doing. And it also allows me, again, back to the freedom of being able to spend time with family and, you know, do our routines and our schedules the way we wanted to do it. So, yeah, money was in I mean, obviously it was a factor. Yes. Yes. I want to be able to have some sense of, you know, security and financial means coming in. But I think for me, it was really just reflecting on what I needed physically and emotionally. Right. And then realizing that, oh, I can do it through private practice. Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:14:00] And what have you found financially has happened for you since you made that step into private practice, I guess. How long ago did you start your practice? 

Cynthia [00:14:09] So my practice, I guess, is like four years old now. Yeah. But before that, I was working for someone else who had their own private practice. I kind of. Kind of saw that a little bit. So it was a transition where I wasn’t like, I just quit my job and I was just kind of like, transitioned that in the way that made sense for me. But to be honest, I found out quickly that you can make as much money as you want or as little money as you want. Right. It’s definitely up to you and what your needs are, what your family budget and income and all of that ratio kind of stuff. So it’s been money-wise, it’s been a better decision for me going into private practice than when I wasn’t. There’s been some growing pains, I think, right? Realizing that you can overwork yourself in private practice if you’re not careful. Oh, yes. Yeah. So I feel like year three, right? Last year. I have to be very mindful about, hey, you need to find a balance, right? Hence kind of figuring out what is it that I want to do? How how do I want to help my clients the most, but also how can I take care of myself in the meantime? So I’ve had to scale back a little bit, but I’ve had to do that because it was, again, right, thinking about what’s best for me. I was kind of prioritizing my health and my physical and emotional health, I think has definitely been helpful for me. 

Linzy [00:15:35] Yeah, And it makes you think about costs, right? Like, I think, as you say, like when you work for yourself, you were the factor. Like, if you say yes more, if you push more, if you market more, you will see more clients. If you modulate or if you don’t put yourself out there as much, you’re going to see less clients. Right. But if you do go to that point of seeing a lot of clients, you’re going to hit limits that are different types of limits, right? That are emotional limits and physical limits. 

Cynthia [00:15:59] And you have to figure that out for yourself really quickly or you’re going to be like private practice because sucks, its not for me. And then that’s not the problem. The problem is that you’re not finding that balance or you’re not figuring out where your happy space is, right. Like, you definitely have to find that. I don’t know the term I’m looking for like your soft spot, right? You have to find that for yourself. 

Linzy [00:16:21] Yeah, like you’re like, sweet spot. I like using the term sweet spot when I talk to folks, because what I find too, Cynthia, and I’m curious about your experience of this coming out of a place where working in, like, more of, like an institution, you know, or an agency setting and then maybe working in a group practice, too, where there might be minimums that you need to hit. What I noticed with lots of folks is when they go into solo practice and they really just are their own boss, they still treat themself the way that those institutions or other businesses treated them, right? So it’s like it’s almost like wherever you go, there you are. Except that now where you are, you’ve like internalized all these ideas of how much you have to work and like not really valuing your emotional well-being as much as it could be the money, or could just be thinking like, this is what a full day looks like. And so with that sweet spot conversation, like a conversation I had with folks a lot in Money Skills for Therapists is like, I see that come up where I’ll say like, okay, so let’s just think about in a week, like, what is your sweet spot of sessions? They’re like, Well, I can do 25. It’s like, That’s not what I asked you. Right? But we’re so conditioned to think about what is my max. Like I say, sweet spot people here. What is the maximum at which you’re not technically dying, but you will enjoy it for years. Right. That like, to the max. I’m curious about your own experiences with any of those kinds of, like, internalized pieces.  

Cynthia [00:17:33] Well, I think I was lucky in the sense that transitioning into private practice, I was very mindful of what I wanted to do. And so those core beliefs or conditioned behaviors around the clientele and different things like that. I think I was very mindful not to get caught up in it. And I think obviously I did the first year because I was like, Well, I’m only one person, right? But they all are these clients and be providing them the service that I want to provide them. And so I had to again, scale back. But I think I was lucky in the sense that I had a community of other first-time private practice owners. Right. So I feel like we did a good job of supporting one another in terms of, Oh, you’re seeing how many clients. Right. And kind of talking around like self-care and balancing and, you know, family expectations and different things like that. So I think that was helpful for me and then for me as well. I think when you have a family, right, you also have to be thoughtful around those things, too. So I think that also forced me because again, the intention was I was supposed to find a balance right, between work and family. So I think that also forced me to be very mindful about, okay, I can see clients up to this time, but I had to transition because the kids have activities or, you know, they have to have dinner or bedtime or all of that stuff. And so I think there were a lot of different factors that helped me to not get caught up in those and institutionalized core beliefs around numbers and client base and all of that stuff. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:19:11] Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, coming back to a word you’ve used a few times, it sounds like you’re very intentional. 

Cynthia [00:19:17] You have to be. 

Linzy [00:19:18] Like, you know why you went into this. You kept that. You didn’t lose that as soon as you got into private practice, but you kept that like family in balance and your health as a center. 

Cynthia [00:19:28] I want to say I- you know, I got caught up in it the first year because it was just exciting, right? Like the endorphins. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Like, Yeah, yeah, there’s that. 

Cynthia [00:19:36] All over the place. But I think, yeah, after the first year, it was like, okay, I cannot sustain this, right? I will burn out. I will- you start getting resentful, right? And that’s not a healthy place to be when you’re doing anything but especially private practice because you are like literally the one. 

Linzy [00:19:57] Yeah, yeah. Yes. You’re supposed to be holding neutral emotional space for folks and resentment is not really conducive to that. 

Cynthia [00:20:04] So yeah. So luckily for me, I have a group practice too. And so I think I also had to model that for, you know, some of my staff as well. And they actually did a really good job modeling for me because I had one clinician who only saw a certain amount of clients, you know, every- a certain amount of days just because that’s what she could sustain. And I admire that about her. It was like, oh, okay. 

Linzy [00:20:30] Yes, yes. 

Cynthia [00:20:32] I get to do that too. People around you definitely can be helpful with some of those. 

Linzy [00:20:39] Yeah. Yeah. I’m hearing lots of like positive influences. Yeah. From peers and even from the folks working for you. 

Cynthia [00:20:45] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:46] In your private practice. I’m curious, like, what are some of the best money moves you’ve made since going into private practice? 

Cynthia [00:20:53] Well, you know what? I guess it’s, it’s really initially, you know, we’ve had conversations around insurance versus self-pay versus, you know, some other things. And I think for me, one of the reasons I wanted to, you know, offer Conversations Create Change to people was really making it accessible. Right. And so I’ve really had to be careful not to, like, only go self-pay only. And so I think for me, the best money move, I guess, is like working through the insurance companies for me. Because it just allows me to have more access to clientele. And so that’s been very helpful for me. But I think the other thing that I’m learning as well is one of the things that personally for me that I want to kind of, you know, shift into is doing like more couple work or doing like workshops and different things like that for couples. Yeah, not only does it allow me then to have more access to clients in a short period of time, right, But it also allows me to kind of like do the work that I want to do effectively in a short period of time without like going months and months and months and months and session after session after session. I think that’s the transition that I want to get to, and I’m hoping that that’s my next money move. I go back to that word intentional, about servicing clients and then also limiting burnout and, you know, balancing family and work schedules and things like that. You know. 

Linzy [00:22:26] What I hear in that that I really appreciate is like a both/and. Yeah, because I think often those things are seen as kind of opposites where it’s like you either do insurance and you just kind of take whatever the insurance companies give you and like this is, you know, your financial and potentially emotional suffering because they’re not always their work is like the cost of being accessible and it’s the cost of justice. Yeah, that’s kind of one end of the spectrum. And then the other end is like totally out of pocket or like only like one-to-many services where there’s like no individual access and it’s trying to maximize as much as possible. And what I hear here is a finding like a balance or a mix that suits. 

Cynthia [00:23:04] Your insurer. I think so. The other. Another thing to that, if I can make this as a money move, is hiring the right people for certain things. Right. And I think for me, one of the things I learned very quickly with that billing and dealing with the insurance company was that I wanted to outsource. And so I tried for, you know, the first year or so. And again, it added to my burnout and added. So I feel like there was that and just like not liking this at all. And so it was definitely- bringing somebody on board to help with that definitely was a good money move, I think on my part. 

Linzy [00:23:45] Yeah. And, you know, I think that that speaks to self-awareness, right? Like, I you know, in terms of the question of, like, what is the right first hire, I think one of the questions is like, what do you hate the most? 

Cynthia [00:23:56] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:23:57] And you can’t outsource everything. There’s certain things that like where you do have to show up and like be your own brand and like, you can’t have people network on your behalf or things like that. But like, I know for me, for instance, like website stuff and tech stuff. 

Cynthia [00:24:10] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:24:11] Right. And so like that was one of the first hires that I made, right, is like outsourcing my website like paid a chunk of change for somebody to both write my website because – we were chatting before this call – I don’t really love writing. It doesn’t come naturally to me. I can be good at it when I’m in the flow, but I’m rarely in the flow and websites. Right. So those were like some of the first big investments I made in my practice and didn’t build it myself because I knew for me the pain of it, like the emotional pain and frustration literally wasn’t worth it when I could turn around and see clients and do the work that I loved instead and turn that into, you know, a paycheck for a consultant. So, yeah, being aware of your own personality, I think goes a long way. 

Cynthia [00:24:51] And it makes the private practice a lot more enjoyable, right? If you’re not careful, you can get caught up in like it’s so difficult and, and yeah, not everybody wants to deal with insurance companies. I get it right. But there are people who that’s our jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and so. Yeah, yeah. Have that limit you know from working with. 

Linzy [00:25:11] Totally. I think it’s remembering that there’s people out there who like have totally different brains than you. They like things that you don’t like and things that you might find totally overwhelming or defeating they think is a delicious challenge to dig into. Yeah. So, like, get those folks on your team. 

Cynthia [00:25:27] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:25:28] Yeah, absolutely. Well, Cynthia, thank you so much for joining me today. For folks who are listening, if they want to get further into your world, can you tell them more about where they can find you and follow her? 

Cynthia [00:25:39] Again, my private practice is called Conversations Create Change, and that’s the same name on the website. Conversations Create Change dot com. You can also find me if you’re interested in couples work or couples workshops and different things like that. On Create Change with Cynthia dot com. It’s all one word Create Change with Cynthia dot com, and that’s where you can find information on the Gottman level. Gottman method therapy, as well as some of the workshops that I provide on there. And yeah, if you want to do just have a consultation or whatever about couples work. Hit me up on there. And then if you want to kind of see my fun side, @talk_allaboutit. And that’s the IG. 

Linzy [00:26:30] And we’ll put that in the footnotes, too, so folks can just click the link from the footnotes to go follow Cynthia for these conversations. And I do really so appreciate that you have your like serious brand, your like therapy brand. You’re like, this is where I have letters over here and this is where I just talk about stuff that’s important and interesting. And again, so I think that’s a great. 

Cynthia [00:26:48] That’s self awareness, learning I need to take care of myself. And this is one of the ways that I do that. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:26:55] Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Cynthia. 

Cynthia [00:26:57] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:27:12] In this conversation with Cynthia. I really love her emphasis on it’s about what you do with money. Right. And it’s something that I’ve been thinking about more and more these days is the fact that money is a tool. Money doesn’t actually do anything on its own. Money literally just sits there unless you do something with it. And so it’s really about your intention with money and the actions that you take with it, the way that you actually manage your money and direct your money and turn your money into other things, that is actually what money brings into your life. And any given dollar amount is not going to give you any specific experience of money because it’s really how you manage that money, relate to that money, handle that money that gives you the actual experience of money, that gives money meaning. So I loved her emphasis on that today, really thought-provoking and just loved talking with Cynthia. She has a really lovely presence. So definitely check out her Instagram channel to get more of her in your world. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can do that @moneynutsandbolts. And if you want to be like a voluptuous coconut at the beginning and leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, I would really appreciate that. It’s a really helpful way for folks to find this podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Danielle [00:00:01] That’s why I signed up, because I knew that was something that was missing, was really understanding what these members of reports are saying. I know I have the data now. I just need to actually pull it and understand it. And then all of the things that I have kind of crunched and looked at is still helpful, but I need to do more time nurturing that leader of this organization. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today we have a coaching episode with Danielle Ritsema. Danielle is group practice owner in Sault St. Marie, Ontario. She’s lovely. You’re going to hear that she’s a grad of Money Skills for Therapists and she’s also actually currently in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which at the time of this recording is just like we’re just at the beginning of that course together. I just kind of like rolled out the first two modules so far. So in our conversation today, Danielle and I get into dealing with overwhelm, like feeling overwhelmed by all the things to do in the business, talking about how it’s hard to make time to work on the money, even though you should, just feeling like you never get to it. And ultimately we start to dig into some beliefs about identity and being a business owner and kind of the ick that can come with that. So if you’re someone who struggles to prioritize your money, especially if you’re a group practice owner and you have folks working for you. But even as a solo practice owner, if you struggle to prioritize actually getting to your money, and if you find that you struggle with the idea of like being a business owner, like that doesn’t feel good for you, then this is going to be a great episode for you. Here is my coaching session with Danielle Ritsema. So, Danielle, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Danielle [00:02:19] Thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:02:20] I am so glad that you are here. We were joking earlier that we’ve been trying to record this podcast for no joke like six months and every time we go to record, somebody’s kids are sick. So this is really nice that this is lined up for us. 

 

Danielle [00:02:31] Yes, it’s the post-COVID plague season. 

 

Linzy [00:02:34] Yes. Yes. So thinking about our time together today, tell me what’s coming up for you that you could use some support with today? 

 

Danielle [00:02:42] I think there’s been a lot of change. It’s hard with private practice when you’re one on one. So I have a group practice. And when I was one on one, I think I did a lot of work to be very intentional with how I chose my schedule. And I listened to great people like you and Allison Puryear and other people. And did all the things, did all the research, and was so intentional in setting up the foundation and was really happy with that. And I always thought I might want to add people down the road. I had supervised students in the past, but I didn’t expect to do it early on and I just happened to open my clinic just before COVID hit. So in March of 2020, it was when I was sort of getting ready to move into an office in April. And then everything kind of changed. So that threw things off too. But shortly after that, when we were back in office, I had a student reach out and it made sense for me to take her on because she was just so fabulous and she reached out to me. So I wasn’t looking for it. But a lot of the things that have happened over the last year and a half to two years since I started growing a group practice have felt really organic and people have come along the path at times when it just made sense to offer a different specialty. Space became available in the same building where my office was. And so it just it felt fairly easy to bring in amazing people and to be able to offer great services to my clients and to our greater community. At the same time, I didn’t realize when I first opened my private practice how much I was going to miss having people around. But it was those in-between things and the team meetings that I really, I really did miss. And I went through a whole grieving process around that. And so I got really comfortable in my private practice, my one on one, like just myself, my solo practice. But there was a little piece there that was like, Oh, it would be nice to have these bigger things and be growing something and have more community outreach and just I was looking for more. But I think part of what motivated me early on was I’m going to do all of this work upfront and then I’m going to get to a point where the systems are in place, people are settled and then I’ll be able to settle again like I did in my solo practice, will be able to schedule my day with these nice lunch breaks, schedule in my self-case and going to work out when my kids are in school, and having more of that autonomy and freedom. I think I thought I’d be there already. And I also thought that the payoff would be better in terms of like all this time that I’m pouring into it and then not necessarily getting that back financially. It gives me more stability. So when my kids are sick and I have to cancel my full clinical day, I’m not left with no income because I’ve got a team. And that was a huge benefit. But I think I also thought I’ll be able to do a little bit less clinical time and be doing more of the business things which uses these different parts of my brain, which I enjoy, I’m curious about. The problem is now that’s just unpaid time. So I’m finding like, Oh, I almost need to work the same number of clinical hours. But now I also have all this work to do because the settling isn’t happening. 

 

Linzy [00:06:09] And what I’m hearing is you wanted more, you got more, but it wasn’t necessarily the more that you were envisioning. 

 

Danielle [00:06:17] Be careful what you ask for. 

 

Linzy [00:06:17] Or like, Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay. You’re still working almost the same amount of clinical hours that you were before. And how many hours a week is that right now? 

 

Danielle [00:06:26] Actually, I would say it is a little bit less. It’s less maybe because I’m squeezing more people into less time clinically. It’s about like 10 hours per week.  I think when I did Money Nuts and Bolts with you, I was like averaging closer to eight and you were like, Oh, like you might need to go up based on my goals then. So I was working four days a week. Keeping my Fridays or my Mondays – one day a week – as like an admin day? 

 

Linzy [00:06:52] Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:06:52] One of my therapists needed office space. I gave up my office for them so that I could work from home. And I made another day, a second day more of an admin day. And that was an attempt to get a little more balance back in my life. But then I found that that’s not enough clients, so now I’m actually adding an extra clients. So the other three days – so that they’re fuller days. 

 

Linzy [00:07:14] So you’re at about ten clients a week, but I’m hearing that it sounds like there’s a lot of admin. Tell me what that’s looking like in your week. Like what? What is your week looking like? 

 

Danielle [00:07:23] So my Mondays, I always have to review contractor invoices and the payroll for my admin, and then I do that on Mondays. So I did hire a bookkeeper. I had been debating it for a long time and was just drowning more and more in bookkeeping. So I hired a bookkeeper as part of with my accountants firm. And so that has been very helpful. I wouldn’t say it’s offloaded a whole lot of time per say, but it’s cleaning things up and it’s things that I wasn’t getting to that would have been a mess down the road on top of. And they’re really good at emailing me anything that’s missing. So that has been helpful in that sense. And they are the ones that process the payroll. So after I’ve checked it and made sure all the numbers are right, which often there’s a- there’s always a mistake. Everybody’s always late and I’m having to remind them to send me their invoices and then tracking them down and then they send me and then somebody has made a mistake so then I’ve got to go back and forth and I’m waiting for them to send it again. And then, you know, maybe half an hour, 45 minutes on Monday like that that takes then there’s just the emails back and forth. And my admin is fabulous. But there’s a lot of things that is my call so then on Wednesdays I often will have a chat with her at some point in the day about new clients coming in, different situations, what she’s doing. And then I have somebody helping me with my social media, which is one of those things that I’ve really debated. But for me, a lot of my clients are in the age range that it makes sense for me to make sure that that’s a consistent presence. And I’ve had a number of clients come through social media, so I try to stay up on it. When I was doing it my own, it just didn’t happen. So having a social media manager. 

 

Linzy [00:09:04] Yes. 

 

Danielle [00:09:05] Yeah. Is really helpful in the sense that it also forces me to do things. She’s fabulous, but then she’ll send me the things and then I have to review everything and make my edits. And then she does it. And it’s weird, right? Because it’s again, it’s like more work than before I had her. But it’s also keeps me accountable to do the work that I should do that I want to do. 

 

Linzy [00:09:28] Yeah. Yeah. It’s harder to slack off when you, first of all, are paying someone, so like, you’re trying to fill your whole practice now, not just yourself. 

 

Danielle [00:09:35] Yeah. So it’s kind of same with the bookkeeper, like I outsource, but also it didn’t really take things off. Yeah, it kind of added some things. 

 

Linzy [00:09:43] Yes, because that was being done probably more thoroughly. 

 

Danielle [00:09:46] Because it’s just better. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:09:49] Right. Yeah. Okay. What is really not working for you about the way that things are looking right now? 

 

Danielle [00:09:55] I think it’s not making progress. Just really thought that I would be further ahead. I racked up some debt when I furnished a second office and that’s just kind of sat on a credit card because I didn’t have anything else. And I haven’t been able to chip away at it like I thought I would. I haven’t been able to pay myself the amount that I thought I would have been able to buy now, like, I really thought, okay, it’ll take a couple of months to start filling them up, but now they are a little more full and still I’m not getting to that level that I thought I would. I brought on a student in January who is a virtual student, and I have had the hardest time. I can’t- which I have somebody helping me with Google Analytics and Google ads. And they said like no one clicks on the keyword virtual. So that is a huge loss that like she’s now extending her placement because she hasn’t had enough clients, which I feel bad. I’ve been putting money into Google ads trying to get her clients. It’s not been working. So that’s a loss there too. 

 

Linzy [00:11:00] This is like a slight aside, but is there a reason she needs to be working with folks who are in Sault Ste. Marie if she’s virtual? 

 

Danielle [00:11:06] No. So we also have a second ad in the Ottawa area where she is because although people might be more apt to do virtual, but then we are fighting with Better Help and large corporations, you have way more money to spend on your ads so we don’t show up so much. 

 

Linzy [00:11:23] Okay, so you’re competing. Yeah, because that’s that’s a thought there and that’s for your Google Analytics person. But like, what are the places- because she could be serving anywhere in Ontario. So as we think about your numbers, like I’m hearing you’re talking about your own sessions, right? Like that you need to keep your own numbers at ten a week. How many sessions a week are being done right now by your team? 

 

Danielle [00:11:41] I think close to 40. 

 

Linzy [00:11:42]  40 sessions week. 

 

Danielle [00:11:44] Yes. I have one therapist that consistently does like 14, one that does about probably closer to that too, 14, but she’s the one that’s leaving. And I have another that does closer to 10 to 12. Then another that’s also a winding down that only does about four. And then my student who has been doing two or three a week. 

 

Linzy [00:12:04] So where does that put us then? What were those numbers? 

 

Danielle [00:12:06] Yeah, so 46, maybe? 

 

Linzy [00:12:08] Okay. Okay. So 46 sessions a week. 

 

Danielle [00:12:10] Which is a lot like that’s a lot of sessions. 

 

Linzy [00:12:13] Yeah, it is. Right. I’m hearing that your brain goes to or has been focused on how many sessions you need to work. Because as we’re thinking about this, like what I am noticing, you know, it’s helpful to know that these are the numbers of your team, what your team is doing. And I’m hearing there’s some flux in your team, but also there’s there’s folks leaving, but there’s also folks coming. And some of those folks are students. And so these numbers are going to shift. But, you know, what I’m hearing is your brain, you know, is noticing how many sessions you need to work or you need to get up those extra three sessions. You need to be at ten or whatever. But this variable is a really big important variable, which is your team, right? And like how many sessions your team is bringing. Because what I’m hearing is something right now in your group practice machine, the money is not working in such a way that there’s really profit, there’s not extra. You know, I think sometimes people only hear, they hear profit. They think like extra like extravagance. In this case, by profit, I mean extra money that you could be putting down on these debts – is not there in the way that the numbers are working right now. Thinking about your group practice, the way I visualize it is kind of like this machine with all these different cogs, right? And each one is like a variable that we have control over, right? Like there’s your operating expenses, how much you’re paying for rent and like your systems that people are using. There’s how much your team is charging, like the fees that they’re charging, which might be consistent across your clinicians or they might vary. There’s the wages that they get paid for those fees, which determines how much goes to them, how much goes back to your business. There’s your administrator and how much you’re paying for that non-income-generating employee. But they help you run the machine, right? Like there’s all these variables. And thinking about those, I’m curious like, do you have a gut hunch of where those numbers might not be working? 

 

Danielle [00:13:56] I think I’ve really questioned the operating expenses. Like some of that- the Google ads has worked really well for us to get people, but it does not work well for me to get clients for my virtual student. So that’s a piece where it just feels like the money is just going and it’s not going anywhere, which is frustrating. Yeah, the social media too. It’s like helpful for me to have a presence, but I don’t know how much it’s really bringing in clients, but it’s also it’s not really that much money per month. It works out to be just over 600. It’s like 590 plus tax or whatever. So it’s like a 150 per week or something like that that I budget. And I’m like, that’s not that much money. 

 

Linzy [00:14:40] No. 

 

Danielle [00:14:40] When I think about how much content she helps me put out, that’s high quality, way better than anything I ever did before. 

 

Linzy [00:14:47] And if that gets you one client who’s coming weekly, then it’s being covered. 

 

Danielle [00:14:51] When I think about the numbers that are ongoing and something that pops up that I chew on and I question, but then I go like, I think that’s pretty good. I don’t know that there’s a whole lot of wiggle room in terms of people’s fees. Like I feel pretty good about that. I don’t see that. I think it’s like making sure people are full. I have one clinician that for whatever reason isn’t consistently full. There’s a little bit less follow up. So my admin is contacting their clients to follow up and rebook and things like that. 

 

Linzy [00:15:19] There’s a suspicion that it might be OpEx, but I’m not hearing anything that’s glaring at this moment. But I do know there’s been big OpEx in the past, right? Like there’s those large investments that you’ve made. And I know you’ve mentioned one that that we’ve talked about previously that didn’t really pay off like you made a big outlay and didn’t see direct return. Do you know right now, Danielle, like what your monthly profit and losses looking like? 

 

Danielle [00:15:42] I have a report from QuickBooks. I don’t know really what it means. I don’t understand it because I don’t see that profit. Yeah, like I don’t have the money in the bank. 

 

Linzy [00:15:57] As we think about this, like, I guess one question is: would you want to look at your profit and losses together? 

 

Danielle [00:16:03] Do you think that I- 

 

Linzy [00:16:05] I know that you don’t. 

 

Danielle [00:16:05] Download it, cross my mind. I’m like, Oh, maybe I should have her help me understand what this even means. 

 

Linzy [00:16:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Contextually, in terms of like this work that ongoingly, this is in module two of Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which I just released. So- which is coming your way as you work through the materials. There are lessons on like learning how to read your profit and loss and your balance sheet because I’m hearing here there’s a disconnect right now. It’s like the numbers you see aren’t making sense for what you’re actually experiencing in the bank, because something that I’m hearing, you know, as we’re talking, the reason that I’ve steered us this way is I’m hearing like kind of like overwhelm and fogginess and like, you’re not where you want to be. It’s like something’s not working, but it’s not clear what is not working. And that information, at least some of it, is going to be in here, right. We’re going to start to see where the numbers are not doing what we would want them to do. So we are looking at your profit and loss now. We’ve got two months side by side, which is nice. It’s like a little bit of a snippet. We’re looking for patterns. I’m going to grab some numbers. So in terms of income, if we look here, your income is is pretty very close between the two months. So April, it was like 30,467 and May it was 30,288, which is super close. So do you have a sense, Danielle, is that a pretty normal looking number to you as far as you know? 

 

Danielle [00:17:24] I guess so. I was doing a good job every month, like kind of checking and yeah, and making goals. And then that just disappeared after, I think, January. So, yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:17:37] I think you you built your systems really well for solo practice and then you grew a lot faster than you planned. Kind of like an accidental group practice I remember is what I kind of called it at first. But you enjoyed it and you’re called to it. It’s not like it’s like I never wanted to do this, right, but it’s happened quickly. Like there’s been a lot of flow to it, but maybe like flow, like being pulled down a river. So a little overwhelming and chaotic. And then I see here, there’s your contractor fees, which vary- are very different between those two months. 

 

Danielle [00:18:05] Yeah. I don’t know why that is. 

 

Linzy [00:18:07] That’s a point of curiosity. Right. Whenever we’re looking at a financial statement and there’s something that’s like, Huh, then that’s an opportunity. Like if you were in QuickBooks right now, we could actually like click on those numbers and be like, Why are these so different? Why? Like, because what we’re seeing here is that in April it was like $7500 for contractors, and in May it was only $3800, which is really different number. 

 

Danielle [00:18:26] I think that that’s because we switched from me paying by E-transfer. We switched to adding them on direct deposit like payroll so that they look like employees now. Okay, So they may show up here. They may show up in wages. 

 

Linzy [00:18:43] Oh, there you go.  

 

Danielle [00:18:45] I think. 

 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yeah. And if I look at these numbers, when I add your contractor numbers and your employee numbers together, they’re actually- it’s just the money is kind of allocated differently. That’s I’m just like recording these numbers roughly. So if we look at your contractors, it was like 75, 75. And if we go down to the employees total wages and payroll, 71, 72 and I’m just going to add these numbers together so we can see like what was your total payroll run regardless of whether they were employees or contractors? In April, it was 14,647 and in May it was 13,208. So like a 1500 dollars difference. I’m curious, what is it like for you right now looking at these numbers? 

 

Danielle [00:19:27] It’s a lot of money that I paid there. 

 

Linzy [00:19:29] Okay, so you’re noticing money going out. 

 

Danielle [00:19:31] That makes up a huge amount of my expenses, which isn’t what I would expect. 

 

Linzy [00:19:34] Yeah. And this is why it’s good to look at these numbers, right? Because, like, now we’re starting to understand, like, Oh, okay. But that makes sense. If we just look at these numbers. Danielle, it’s like, okay, you’re April was 14,647. So what I’m going to do is see like what percentage of your revenue did it cost you to pay your team? So in April it was 48% of what you made went to pay your team. And are you included in these payroll numbers or are you somewhere else? 

 

Danielle [00:19:57] I think I would be somewhere else, but I am included in the service total. 

 

Linzy [00:20:03] So we’re not seeing your paycheck come out of there. If we scroll down to the bottom, okay, there’s your profit. 

 

Danielle [00:20:07] There’s compensation. 

 

Linzy [00:20:08] Right? So they put it aside. 

 

Danielle [00:20:09] This looks really sad. I’m like, Oh, that’s not what I want to be making. 

 

Linzy [00:20:12] It’s not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that puts your owners compensation for May is about 10%. So it’s like for every dollar that came in the door, you got paid $0.10. And for April it’s like a little more than that, it’s probably more like 15%. So you are on here. So yeah, I do see that there is profit showing at the bottom after your owner’s compensation, which is something. So tell me about these numbers we’re seeing at the bottom. 

 

Danielle [00:20:35] And I’m wondering if there’s some things not being accounted for in this report because I usually do the profit first system and I actually have a separate account for retirement and for time off. Yes, those things are not being accounted for here, which I do then sometimes draw from. 

 

Linzy [00:20:54] And that’s something to look at too, because when you make those draws, depending on how your accountant or bookkeeper classifies them, they’re probably not on your profit and loss here. They’re probably on your balance sheet. What I’m noticing as we’re looking at these numbers is it’s like you don’t have like a real handle on these numbers right now. Right. Like these are not familiar numbers that you’re like, Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s typical. This is the percentages I aim for, right? I’m curious right now, like, what is your relationship to your numbers as a group practice owner? 

 

Danielle [00:21:19] Avoidance. 

 

Linzy [00:21:20] Okay. 

 

Danielle [00:21:21] So I do, on a weekly basis because I do payroll weekly and I do my disbursements weekly, I pull the payments from that week and I look at those numbers every single week so that I see exactly how much money came in, what went out in terms of like the fees, what do I need to set aside for HST taxes? And then I do my disbursements that way. So I have a bit of an idea of like, ooh, like this contractor only saw this many that week or I only saw this many that week. 

 

Linzy [00:21:50] You got your eyes on case loads. 

 

Danielle [00:21:52] I have my eye on the number of clients and like on a weekly basis that they have money that’s coming in and out. But not the monthly. Yeah. No, I’m really not looking at the monthly numbers. And even before like it was a very surface-level number that I would pull out of my platform and just see like, oh okay, what’s the total number of sessions? And that was more like, okay, I don’t really know what that really means. I’m just looking at this number like, okay, well, that’s bigger than the month before or whatever. So that’s good, I guess. 

 

Linzy [00:22:21] Yeah. Part of what I’m hearing here and I mean, this is why you’ve joined Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which we’re just starting. I’m not hearing yet like a real kind of ethos of like being the financial boss, right? Like being the financial leader and being like, these are my numbers. I’m in charge of these numbers. I understand these numbers. When I see these numbers, this is what I know to do. And then I do it. 

 

Danielle [00:22:41] I feel like I’m chasing fires.  

 

Linzy [00:22:45] Yeah. And that chasing fires, like, where does that leave you personally and professionally? What does that do for you? 

 

Danielle [00:22:52] Tired. 

 

Linzy [00:22:53] Yeah, for sure. Yes. Because it is tiring. Right. And I think, too, when you’re used to chasing fires, everything looks like a fire because your feet aren’t really on the ground. Does that ring true or does that feel not true? What do you notice with me saying that? 

 

Danielle [00:23:07] Like I feel like I go from just total avoidance to chasing fire to total avoidance, like I go in and out. 

 

Linzy [00:23:14] Yes, and want that makes me think of like from a therapy perspective, right. Is like dysregulation on both sides of the window of tolerance. Right. It’s like swinging into like, ah, fires, emergency, urgent, down into like shut down, avoid, don’t look. 

 

Danielle [00:23:30] Or just distraction, like I would say like because there’s so many other things to do that I’ll just kind of like I’m just going to shelve that and I’ll just focus on this thing and making this new post about this new person or ordering some new brochure. 

 

Linzy [00:23:45] There’s always things to do, you know, thinking about, about this piece of your business, like the financial leadership, financial management, understanding your numbers, being able to make empowered decisions with your numbers. I’m curious like what would be different for you if you really owned that part of your role, which is a role that only you can do. What would it be like if you stepped more into that space? 

 

Danielle [00:24:06] I would really, really like to. I think my struggle is I still haven’t booked CFO time and that was a month ago, you know, that we talked about it. I feel this hole between like I need to see as many clients. I don’t want to block my schedule. I know that I avoid when I don’t know what I’m doing. And I think with the profit and loss, I was like, I don’t know how to make sense of these numbers, so I’ll avoid it. And also, it’s a lot of time I find it takes to, you know, to even punch out. Like I spent an hour last week just budgeting and planning the expenses for this other office, which part of me is like, Well I just want to buy the things like and then it’s done. Doing the planning sometimes can feel like twice the amount of work than just doing the thing, make better decisions maybe when I’m planned. 

 

Linzy [00:24:58] And I think another piece is when you do do that kind of planning, you’re basically kind of building out infrastructure. You’re building SOPs, right? Which means the next time you go to furnish an office, you don’t have to do that thinking again. You pull up the spreadsheet and you’re like, okay, this is what we budgeted last time. And then based on how it actually worked out, this is where the numbers landed. So this is how much it costs me to furnish an office. And I know it’s real because these are numbers that have been tested and now I can make a financial plan, right? It’s thinking that you have to do well once and then you get to reuse it. It’s like you plan for those like emergency situations, like we just got hate mail. I was like, Oh, I just came back from a day of the spa. I was like, so chill, was like, Oh, I’ve been on the Scandinave, I feel amazing. And then I like open my email when I shouldn’t have. And I saw hate mail and I was like, Oh, And I was like, All right, we don’t have an SOP for hate mail, so we just need to make one, right? And then when hate mail happens, instead of being surprised and it being a fire, you’re like, okay, hate mail happened. Activate step one, which by the way, step one, if anybody listening ever wants to send me hate mail, step one is that I do not read it. And I have my partner who’s a politician, who works for me, read it, because he has very thick skin and then he deals with it and he doesn’t tell me what’s in it because I don’t need to see that. 

 

Danielle [00:26:04] We have a complaint process too, that I just created last week. 

 

Linzy [00:26:08] Yeah, that’s right. So it’s like once you make it, then it’s not a fire anymore. It’s just something that it’s like, okay, here’s the situation that arises and we’re going to now activate this SRP that we’ve created previously that we know works. And working out your numbers is the same thing, right? It takes a lot at first because you’re building new neural pathways. You’re having to think of new things, right? You’re having to learn new things in this case, right? Because this is not how your brain actually works. But once you build that in place and you have a process, you’re just repeating the process. You’re not having to learn it and build the process over and over. 

 

Danielle [00:26:40] I think my fear is I’m going to look at these numbers, spend all this time understanding it, and they’re not going to change. There’s not going to be any new money somewhere, because I’ve thought about the OpEx and I thought about, OK do I really need this? No, I really do feel like I need it. So I think there’s just like that weird nagging on me where I’m like, Is it going to make any difference if I sit down and spend hours looking through all this stuff, punching out all the numbers? Am I still going to be making a lot more clients? Like, I don’t know. 

 

Linzy [00:27:07] If you look at the numbers then and you find there’s not like a fast solution, chances are like when we look at our numbers, there’s not a magical solution. But there will be some solutions. If you look at the numbers and you don’t like what you see, and there isn’t like a fast fix, what does that mean? 

 

Danielle [00:27:21] I just can’t accept it. Like, I feel like I have to find a way because there are things that I keep putting off that I can’t put off anymore. Like, I can’t put off the credit card bills. Personally and professionally. Like, I can’t keep putting them off. So I have to find a way somehow to make more. 

 

Linzy [00:27:42] And what I want to reflect to you is, until you actually understand your numbers and dig in and do the work, which we are going to be doing together in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. So in this case, I’m not like, Go do it, Danielle, it’s like we’re going to be doing this over the next four months. Let’s be real. But once you dig in and you do that work, you are going to see where things need to happen and you are going to understand those numbers. But until you do that, it’s like a black box. 

 

Danielle [00:28:04] Yeah, it’s a blind shot in the dark. 

 

Linzy [00:28:07] And when we’re shooting blind, we tend to go for like, either the things that we like to do the best or the things that are emotionally stressing us the most. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re strategic. How strategic do you feel like you’re able to be in this moment, like with kind of this strategy of not really looking at this stuff and just trying to- 

 

Danielle [00:28:24] Yeah, no, you know, it’s not strategic. I feel like it’s a little strategic, but not really. I look at, okay, how many are they seeing and how many is this one thing and when this one leaves. So I have an idea of like, okay, that should give me this amount of profit. I have that amount of strategy. I know how much weekly I need to be going to OpEx, so I have that kind of nailed down. But that’s like my- and I know that that’s not going to be the exact number, which that’s where like a report like this is helpful because I can see the actual numbers that I’m spending on expenses, not planned. 

 

Linzy [00:29:01] Yeah, the real story. You know, taking the time to do this work would give you a six-month perspective to start because that’s what you’re about to find out in the Money Skills for Group Practice Owners videos that I’m going to coach you to do six months of this and also looking at like what’s on your profit and loss but also what’s not on your profit or loss. Because right now even this record is a bit of a black box for us until we dig into your balance sheet to see, okay, you’re telling me that there’s not been $9,000 of profit that you can see. So it’s like, where’s that $9,000 going? You know, is that profit draws for you? It could also be going to furniture because that also shows up on your balance sheet like going into assets. So if you buy big things for your business, it goes onto your balance sheet. It doesn’t show up here, right? So that’s another place where there’s like some information that once it’s gathered together, you’re going to have like tangible information to work with. So thinking about this then, like we’re talking about how, you know, that there is strategic value to really understanding these numbers. It’s also not fun and it’s not where you want to be putting your energy. So let’s talk about this resistance to CFO time, which for folks listening, CFO time is Chief Financial Officer time. It’s time to like specifically put aside for group practice owners because it is more complicated, like the level you’re at is more complicated and there is learning to do at this point. It’s kind of like you learned what you needed to do to run a great solo practice. You were doing that and then you added a whole bunch of stuff on top. So tell me about what’s coming up that’s making it hard to actually get to your CFO time. 

 

Danielle [00:30:24] I think the fear of giving up client time, clinical time, loss of income there, that risk because that’s 100%. 

 

Linzy [00:30:33] Goes right to the business. 

 

Danielle [00:30:34] Also being afraid of getting in there and not like not knowing where to start. Right. I got that email from my accountants and was like, okay, great. I don’t know what any of this means and save the email. I don’t like to do things if I can’t do it well and if I don’t understand, then I’m like, Oh, I don’t like this. I can be tunnel vision. If I am digging into a topic, there’s like no stopping me. Blinders go on and I’m like, All in. I’m going to learn this and I’m going to figure it out if I feel like I know how to figure it out. But when it comes to some of this stuff, which I had with accounting in the past, I’m like, I don’t know what to do. And that makes me a little dysregulated and spiraling. So I’d rather just avoid it because I don’t know how to figure it out. Yeah, and I know there’s a lot of money stories for me in terms of my dad owns a business. My parents had a lot of messiness around finances, and so it was something that then I was left really to kind of build things on my own more independence before I was really ready and then took on a lot of debt in school and just it was just up to me to figure it out and dig my way out. And so when I dig into my money stories, I think there’s a lot of fear around. Like there’s never enough money is messy. I’d be really careful. So I diligently use You Need A Budget and I track everything. And I had tracked things with a spreadsheet for years all through my undergrad, for decades. I tracked that because I had to, because I had to be careful. And also. I didn’t want it to kind of get away from me. So I think I have this fear of like, money is just going to get away from me and I’m not going to be able to. And now I feel like with the credit cards kind of going, like setting up and fees, I’m like, Oh, okay, this is getting away from me. You don’t know what to do to get it down. And nothing I seem to be doing is helping. So that’s where I think a lot of the overwhelm kind of comes from. 

 

Linzy [00:32:38] You know, I’m curious hearing about these stories like and it makes a lot of sense, you know, coming from a family of origin situation where you didn’t get help with these things and then you did really like you were on your own. I’m curious, like, if that part of you that really holds that story strongly. Has that part integrated yet that you’re in a course, that’s like guiding you through how to learn these things like that there’s a process that you can do. 

 

Danielle [00:33:02] Maybe. But also I’m avoiding the time like I, I it’s on my brain is like, okay, I’ve got to find the time. I’m going to do that today. But then something else, another fire pops up and I’m like, okay, after this fire, then I never get to it. 

 

Linzy [00:33:16] Yes. Yeah. So you haven’t got to the course yet, Really. Like you haven’t-. 

 

Danielle [00:33:21] Done some. 

 

Linzy [00:33:21] Yeah. Because something that I’m noticing as we’re talking is like the stuff that you’re talking about. I’m like, Danielle, I just made a video for you about this last week. 

 

Danielle [00:33:29] Like, I need to get to it. 

 

Linzy [00:33:31] Yeah, like, it’s hard to get to the support that you’ve already enrolled in because, you know, you want to work on these skills. How can you maybe bring more support into this experience for these parts of you that like, feel alone or think it’s going to be so overwhelming to be with these things Because, you know, you have purchased support, right, to like walk you through this process and like those videos are waiting for you. And also like our coaching calls in our community. How can you integrate more of that experience of having support? 

 

Danielle [00:33:57] I need to set aside the time and actually do it. Time is just always feels like it’s too tight. There’s just not enough time. It’s just how it feels in my life, which is really hard. But I need to find the time. And I did do a big chunk of module one just before our very first coaching call because there was like, okay, I’ve paid for this and this has been available now for a week or two. Like I need to do some stuff because other people are probably going to be further. And then, and then it was fine, right? So now I’m like, okay, now the pressure’s off, which is not so good. 

 

Linzy [00:34:28] Yes. 

 

Danielle [00:34:31] I have so many other things that have deadlines and pressure. And I think the only option is blocking out the time on my schedule, not seeing a client, which I have a hard time doing. I had some time blocked today. Yeah, an hour before we were going to meet. And then I was like, I’ve got some other gaps in my week. I need somebody to fill that if that’s their ideal time. And I cleared it. Now I do have some other gaps in my schedule for whatever reason this week’s. 

 

Linzy [00:34:57] Yeah, what I am still hearing is like, it’s almost like you haven’t caught up to yourself. You’re now a financial leader. You have folks in your business who are doing like 46 sessions a week. They also get paid for that time, right? So it’s true that your one hour brings in relatively more than their one hour, but you have these folks who are here to receive your support and your leadership so they can be seeing clients and like doing that clinical facing work. But it’s kind of like, you know, when you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But I think you might not be noticing other tools that you have available to fix this problem. Because when I hear this problem, I’m hearing there’s like deeper things about your numbers that are not working, that we don’t know what they are yet. Right. But like, you’re the person who will be able to figure them out, but your problem-solving brain goes to you just like seeing more clients rather than working on this deeper problem. 

 

Danielle [00:35:44] Yeah. Also something I’m wrestling with, which we’ve kind of talked on is just even like taking that on. I feel like as soon as you’re like, you’re the leader, I’m like, oh, like I get like the icks around like, oh, you’re the finance or you own a business or like, I don’t want to be like a business owner making money off of their, I don’t know, like, it’s a whole thing. 

 

Linzy [00:36:07] Okay. Oh, there, there it is. Okay. Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:36:11] Oh, it’s really hard. 

 

Linzy [00:36:12] Yeah. So there’s negative beliefs there about being a business owner. Now you’re shrinking. You’re literally shrinking in front of me. 

 

Danielle [00:36:20] I’m just gonna go hide. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:36:23] There’s negative beliefs about being a business owner. It’s like you are a business owner, but you don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing. Or part of you has a lot of judgments about that. 

 

Danielle [00:36:31] I’ve always been so like socially justice wired. I am a social worker at my core. I was a social worker when I was five and would watch World Vision commercials. I have that in my core and I can’t. That’s a good thing, right? But there’s also someone who just has made choices that I really disagree with at an ethical level, knowing that I’m like, I don’t want to be that. I don’t want to be this person that like, takes advantage and just like, reaps all the benefits to live this life of luxury on the backs of my clients and my contractors like that is just like not okay. So it’s hard to find this balance place between. I’m a business owner and also and a good friend of mine was just challenging me on this this weekend because she works in health care and was like, you built such an amazing thing. And look at all these partnerships you have in all of the work you’re doing. And I was like, Yes. And so I have to remind myself of like that outreach piece and the ripple effects of those choices, that it’s not just about making money, but I have to make money in order to be able to do those things. So yes. 

 

Linzy [00:37:41] Yeah. Part of what I think I’m hearing is you’re not owning your power. Maybe because power is bad or you’ve seen other people abuse power. Right. But by not owning your power, you know, not owning everything you build and the fact that you do, you have created this brand and this presence and folks want to work for you like folks are coming to you to say like, I want to be part of what you’ve built. By not owning the power of that, you’re also not owning the responsibility of that. Yeah, you’re not claiming the fact that, like you’re the leader, you’re the CFO. Nobody else can do that. Even your bookkeeper can’t do that for you. There is a problem here that only you can solve, but you’re over here being a clinician because that’s where you’re comfortable and that’s what you know, and that’s where you’ve always been. Rather than claiming this role that you’ve grown into because you’re a badass who’s like, built this beautiful presence that like the people want to be part of, right? There is an ownership of that. Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:38:27] When you say badass, I’m like, Oh, I’m like, I have a hard time owning that, but I do want to be that. But I also really want to be warm and really like- so it’s so hard to find that balance between the two. But I think you’re right. Like that is a real struggle for me to be like, No, I am a leader. I am. 

 

Linzy [00:38:45] Yeah, yeah. I think this is an identity issue coming out in all these different ways. It’s like if you have a really hard time owning that leader role, then like, Yeah, why is it important for you to look at these things? Like you’re unconventional in many ways, although it sounds like there’s a belief you wouldn’t be able to solve those problems. Right? And so like, why look at them. But you are a leader. You’re already a leader. So for you, like, I’m hearing that there’s this image, this Brené Brown image of I think of like soft heart, soft front, strong back. What would it look like if you embodied that a little bit more? 

 

Danielle [00:39:13] Yeah, I think it’s that vulnerability, right. But in a lot of ways I’m good at leadership type thing. It’s public speaking. Yeah. It’s like stepping out and being okay to be in that bright space, not hiding in the shadows. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:39:29] Yeah. And when you say that, it’s like I kind of get this image, like you’re already in the spotlight. You’re like, hanging off the edge of that. You’re like, This isn’t me. This isn’t my spotlight. But you’re already there. People know who you are, right? Like you’ve built a reputation. 

 

Danielle [00:39:41] Yeah. And there’s been really funny instances of that where I’ve been like, Oh, like I own this. And then people are like, Oh, yeah, I know who you are. I know that you own that. And I’m like, Oh, oh, okay. 

 

Linzy [00:39:53] They see you. 

 

Danielle [00:39:53]  But then there’s enough other people where I say what I do and what I own, and they’re like, I have no idea what that is. So yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:40:01] So coming to the end of our our time together, I feel we’ve crossed many valleys and mountains today to arrive at this place. What do you see as your next steps coming out of this conversation? 

 

Danielle [00:40:11] Booking CFO time, taking ownership of that, digging into the content in the group practice Money Buts and Bolts program. That’s why I signed up, because I knew that was something that was missing, was really understanding what these members and reports are saying. I know I have the data now. I just need to actually pull it and understand it. And then all of the things that I have kind of crunched and looked at is so helpful. But I need to do more time nurturing that leader of this organization, knowing like instead of functioning out of fear or like, Oh, like this is happening for now, but who knows if that’s going to last. Like, I think I have this idea of like, well, next year it might just all be gone. Like, you know, really owning that. No, this isn’t going anywhere. I need to have a better idea of where it’s going and making better informed decisions moving forward. And that’s just going to take time, which means maybe not having the initial payoff that I want right now. 

 

Linzy [00:41:11] Yeah, business is a long game. I think that especially with like, I mean, I’m in the online business space, which is like so much worse in this way. But like, I think there is still in some ways this like get rich quick narrative around, like you’re good at business and then you make $1,000,000 in a year. And for most folks, that’s not how it works. Or if you make $1,000,000, you usually spend 950,000. So this is a long game. But two other things occur to me coming to the end of our time. Like one is, I know how deeply you care about people, right? And how much you want to do well by them. And the best thing you can do for your team and for the clients that you serve is to show up and own that leadership role. Right? They’re looking to you for that. And by doing that, you can make the business sustainable and healthy and you can move into a place of offering them better wages and better splits or better opportunities because you actually know what you can afford and you can plan those things strategically over time and make it a really great place that folks want to stick around. Right? Or that they cherish the time that they’ve had with you. The last thing is I would really encourage you to dig into these stories about business leaders. What would it say about you if you really were like a business leader or business owner or whatever, wherever the ick is? Follow the ick because there’s something there. Right. And I think that that identity story is going to trickle into all these different places and it’s going to show up in all these different ways of having trouble prioritizing or other things being important or wanting to see clients. It’s going to have like, you know, 100 different faces. But I think that that is so important to help you shift your relationship to this part of your work. Thank you, Danielle. I appreciate you coming on the podcast. 

 

Danielle [00:42:43] I appreciate you having me. This was helpful, even if it was painful. 

 

Linzy [00:43:01] In this conversation with Danielle, I think we kind of took a winding path to get to where it really felt like, oh, that’s it for me, that oh, that’s it, which you would have heard, is around the identity of being a business owner. If the idea of like being a business owner, especially like being a boss or an employer, if we have a lot of charge or ick around that, if that’s something that we don’t want to own, then we’re not going to own it, right? And that’s going to show up in all these different ways around not doing the things that we know we should be doing, shirking those responsibilities and avoiding the parts of the job that really show us that we are in charge. But whether or not we own that part of our business, whether you’re a group practice owner or solo practice owner, regardless of whether or not you own that part of your practice, it’s still yours. Like nobody else is taking care of that for you. Being curious about what that is for you like, what are the stories? Who do you think of when you think of a business owner? You know, like, is it somebody who, you know, buys yachts while all of their employees are on minimum wage and needing to go to a food bank, then it’s like, interrogate that story, be curious about it. Think about where that came from. What are some exceptions to that? Like, you know, folks who are listening, who do mental health work or coaching work are going to you know, we know some good questions to ask ourselves, to interrogate stories. It’s a real barrier, right, when we’re not owning that role. And as Danielle and I talked about, like there’s a power that comes with that role, which you have whether or not you’re owning it, right. Whether or not you own the power that you have even as a therapist, but also as a business owner or a boss? Even if you don’t own that power, you still have it. And if you don’t own it, then you’re not able to use that power in really thoughtful ways to really reflect your values, right? So by avoiding it, we can actually end up doing the opposite of what we’re trying to do is like we’re trying to be a good boss. So we don’t really want to think about the fact that we’re a boss or a business owner, but by not really owning it and like looking at the numbers and making the numbers work, we can end up building practices that are unsustainable or we can be outside of our own needs and boundaries and start having things like resentment come up towards our team or towards our clients. And then, you know, we end up with the opposite of what we want. We end up having negative impacts in our businesses by avoiding that power and that responsibility rather than the positive ones that we’re looking at. So because I’m working on going with Danielle, I’m very excited to hear how this unfolds for her in our next- we have four and a half months together, still in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. Leaving those questions with any of you that are struggling with these kinds of things today, to be curious about your own stories about being a business owner. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would super appreciate if you’d leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way for new folks to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Wendy [00:00:03] I like to delineate. Guilt has a remedy and shame has a spiral. And when we look at it that way, then we’re seeing that spiral. By knowing it’s shame, then you can use your shame-coping tools. Guilt has a remedy. Let’s say you double-charge someone. You ran their card twice and you’re like, I’m so sorry. So you credit one. That’s a remedy. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today I have with me Wendy Wright. Wendy Wright is a financial therapist and today we get into looking at money and money stories on both sides of the therapeutic relationship. So what does it look like when, a therapist, when our money stories are coming up and impacting the therapeutic relationship? What can that look like? What does it look like when money stories are coming up for our clients and how do we sometimes maybe miss those cues? What are the cues to look for? To show you that your client is maybe trying to talk to you about money or there’s something that bears slowing down and paying attention to an opportunity to support your client with money. And then Wendy also shares some of the principles of financial therapy to be able to start to have these therapeutic conversations with our clients. She points out that in the United States, there’s only a thousand financial therapists in the whole of the United States. So if you’re listening and you’re a mental health counselor or doing other kinds of like coaching and support with folks, the more that we can be, you know, supporting our clients with having some of these financial conversations, the better for everybody because this is a resource that is lacking. So if you find yourself uncomfortable when clients bring up money or if you think maybe you’re skipping over money in your therapeutic conversations, or if you know your own money stuff might be showing up in your therapeutic relationships, there’s going to be lots for you in this episode. Here’s my conversation with Wendy Wright. So, Wendy, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Wendy [00:02:35] Thanks Linzy. I’m happy to be here. 

 

Linzy [00:02:36] Yeah, I’m happy to have you. So, Wendy, before we kind of like, you know, dig in to all the great financial therapy stuff we’re going to talk about today. I’d love it if you could tell folks a little bit about financial therapy and what you do. 

 

Wendy [00:02:50] Yeah, absolutely. Because I kind of stumbled upon it, to be honest, years ago. It’s probably almost been a decade now, believe it or not. But I was working in eating disorders. I’ve been a therapist for over 20 years. And what I began to see- because before I was a therapist, I was in mortgage banking. I have a business undergrad, so and I’ve been a realtor. So I had like this money is comfortable to me to talk about. So I started noticing people with struggling with food issues that they would symptom-substitute to money issues, but they were using the same language like if I buy this shirt, I will look thin versus, you know – and I’m completely oversimplifying for the sake of time – eating disorders. So please, everyone hear that. But so I started to see this parallel relationship. I’ve actually got a workbook, found on my website, called The Intersection of Money and Milkshakes, and that’s a presentation I’ve done where there’s some specific, really cool parallels. And then I began to do this work and really began to uncover the power of sitting in a therapeutic session or setting and talking about money in a way that is different than any other sort of place that you can typically talk about money because there is absolutely no judgment. So my practice is financial therapy solutions because we do both consulting and therapy and sort of different different types of ways of bringing in this therapeutic approach. And that is kind of how I stumbled into it.  

 

Linzy [00:04:18] Okay. So, you know, thinking about money then, and the therapeutic relationship, and thinking about kind of two sides, right? Because like, I usually- I’m working with folks who are on the therapist side of the chair, right. Or the health practitioner side of the relationship. And like how our money stuff shows up. But you’re also thinking about like serving folks from a client perspective, right? Like clients coming specifically to talk about money. So I’m curious, Wendy, from your observations and experience, how does money stuff come up and show up on both sides of those therapeutic or treatment relationships that we have with our clients, both with us and with them? 

 

Wendy [00:04:56] Yeah, it really does. And it’s so helpful to pause and recognize this because we are, as therapists – and I have therapists as clients and clients that are clients – but we are as therapists – that was great scientific – in a business, as you know. And that is one of the things that’s really hard now. You know, I have an undergrad in business, so for me the business part was easy. I wanted to read The E-Myth, which is a business book. You know, I like doing spreadsheets, but most of my clients crawl under the desk when I say the word spreadsheet, you know? So it’s important to know that. But with therapists, too, one of the most important things that we want to start with is knowing your money story. And that can be, you know, spending six months diving into every detail or maybe 6 hours just journaling about it, just getting to know – I use the money timeline – and then kind of like look at the key moments where we can see that. Because when we are working with people who we are giving them a service and we are collecting money for it, the higher level of discomfort is often shown, especially for therapists in the number of uncollected bills, you know, uncollected receipts. Yeah. And I’m working with a therapist, like whatever kind of platform they use sometimes in session, we will go in, we’ll share a screen because I work all virtually. We’ll share a screen, will go into that pay now or that button that they click to actually collect their – either whether it’s a co-pay or. 

 

Linzy [00:06:25] Yes. Yeah,. 

 

Wendy [00:06:26] Yeah. And sometimes it can take a whole session just to push that button, you know? Right. So if we’re scared to take the money, then we’re also scared to ask for the money. But what that does on the flip of that is that it’s kind of transferring all that fear and avoidance to your client. But it leaves your client- you don’t know their money story yet because, for one, you’re probably not going to ask if you have some money, you know, fears and stuff. Or also they haven’t come to me to talk about it and come in to you and say, Here’s my money story, you know, but you don’t know it. So coming into it, getting a little separation from it, where you can say if you went to a restaurant and bought some food and they said, Here’s your food, I’ll get around to- I’ll charge you at some point. Right? Then you’re sitting there looking at your bank balance week after week after week going, “When is that $58 charge gonna hit?”, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:07:19] Yes. Yes. 

 

Wendy [00:07:20] So we want to create a comfort in looking at- I encourage therapists to look at the fee agreement as a kind promise. I don’t want to create a lot of shame around promise because sometimes promise can bring up that. But the kind agreement where that is part of the deal, that’s part of the way you’re building trust is you’re saying this is going to be X number of dollars and then it’s collected that day. Or if you’re- a lot of therapists are really scared to raise their rates or really scared to say their rate out loud. Maybe we practice just saying their rate out loud, too, especially if they’re going from insurance to private pay. I will do that with them, too, because that fear and anxiety can keep them from doing it. Or they’ll spend- I’ve had therapists spend hours and hours and hours writing up a disclosure explaining why their fee is what it is and all this kind of stuff. So that is kind of putting this pressure on the client to understand, Oh my gosh, this is a very big deal or whatever. Because you don’t know their story well. 

 

Linzy [00:08:21] And like, what I’m really thinking about and hearing here is like on this side, because we think about the clinician side right now, a lot of what you’re talking about is making our problem their problem. Yeah, right. Like if I’m scared of collecting fees and so I’m avoiding it. I’m also, you know, either creating a situation where my client is like, what’s happening? Is that money coming out or I do finally collect and now I’ve suddenly collected 500 bucks at once and they have like, totally forgotten that they owe me for those sessions. So now I’ve created like a financial hiccup or stressor for them because I was avoiding money. And it’s the same as, you know, you’re talking about raising fees too, it’s right- if I’m making a big emotional deal out of it, if I’m over-explaining and telling them about my kid’s need for special therapy because I’m so like, so don’t want them to think that I’m trying to take money from them. I’m putting like an emotional weight on this interaction and I’m kind of like oversharing or there’s like a boundary piece there that we can be crossing of asking our clients to, like, emotionally understand us or forgive us. That, I’m going to say, is not therapeutic. 

 

Wendy [00:09:29] Right, right, right. For the therapist either. Because usually this is- if this is what’s happening, they’re losing sleep. You therapists, you know what we’re talking about. Raise your hands. Raise your hand. You’re probably driving while you’re listening to us. But you know what? Like the more you’re losing sleep over it, the more you are perseverating over it, you know, the more- And so here’s one of the things that I like to really bring up with money, too, because that’s usually an indicator we have some shame involved. So I like to delineate, guilt has a remedy, and shame has a spiral. When we look at it that way, then we’re seeing that spiral, that perseveration, that like writing about it over and over again, and all this kind of stuff that kind of tells you. By knowing it’s shame, then you can use your shame-coping tools such as maybe some meditation, some self-compassion – love self-compassion – all that. Guilt has a remedy. Yes. Let’s say you double-charge someone. You ran their car twice and you’re like, I’m so sorry. And so you credit one. That’s a remedy. And so looking at the difference between the two. But if you let’s say you double-charge someone and then go into the I’m a bad therapist spiral. You know, then you want to pull in whatever healing or, you know, kind of what you need to do to heal from that, too. That makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:10:47] Yeah, it does. It does. And I think it’s a really helpful distinction to make. You know, when we are having reactions, to ask ourselves, like, wait, which one is this? Right? Because with guilt too, I think about times where I was late for a client session, for instance, like I remember one client session where I had this client who was just like very quiet and kind of shy, and I went out to the waiting room to, like, get myself some tea. I’m like, do, do, do, do, do. But all this time she’s sitting in the waiting room, I think, Oh, she’s so early. I go back to my office. Do, do, do, do, do I like, go work on some notes, and then I realize, oh my God, our appointment was earlier today. We had changed the time, and she was so shy and like, didn’t want to impose. She just sat there and just waited for me until I came out. And like, that’s a situation of guilt where I didn’t go into the shame spiral of like, I’m the worst therapist in the world. I was just like, Oh, that’s not it. So at the end of our session, I, like immediately remedied it. And even though I still met her for the full time, I credited her back that amount and I said, Your time is valuable. That was my mistake. I’m crediting you back that time. And I think about how me being able to take action because it was guilt, not shame. Being able to take immediate action can actually be very therapeutic for people, right? Like that was actually a very healing experience for her. And she emailed me afterwards to thank me for like the respect that I showed in being able to fix it. And so that’s like, you know, when we can fix it. But when we go into that shame place, we get paralyzed and then it becomes what started as a problem becomes more of a problem if we don’t realize that’s what we’re doing and we stay in that spiral. So what I’m hearing there is like this is a great illustration of how our stuff can become therapeutic stuff. I’m also curious, when do you- like when we’re sitting in our therapist’s chair and we’re talking to our clients, what are some of the clues that we can tell their money stuff is present and there’s maybe opportunity there to dig into that with our clients. 

 

Wendy [00:12:37] Yeah. Hmm. So where I would like to take this is to a couple of things. One, as I’m training therapists to be financial therapists, in putting this together, I created ten principles of financial therapy. And the first one, it has to be first. The rest, I don’t care what order they go in, but the first one is abundant compassionate curiosity and zero judgment. And so whenever- to me that is sort of like the tool to have in your pocket. Most of us already have that tool as a therapist about a lot of things. People can talk about sex, they can talk about trauma, they can talk about childrearing, all these kind of things. And we are attuned to quickly not judge mostly. But when it comes to money, if we’re not aware of our money keywords and our money story, then we may transfer those over. So if someone says, for instance, that they went to buy something and it was expensive or it was cheap, we’ll just kind of mess around those two keywords. So what I encourage therapists to do is to have a very smart kind of play therapy approach. I still remember in play therapy, they were like, Hey, if a kid picks up a dinosaur and says it’s an airplane, you’re like, It’s an airplane. You know, like, you just go with it because it’s the meaning. And if someone says something is expensive and they say, Oh, well, I got these shoes and they were really expensive. And then they say, well, they were, you know, and you find out later they were under your threshold of expensive, let’s just do that. So we’re not applying numbers here. Sure. Then your initial response may be, oh, that wasn’t expensive, because you want to let them off the hook. Because it wasn’t expensive, because it didn’t meet your threshold. But what is important is that they saw it as expensive. 

 

Linzy [00:14:17] Right. 

 

Wendy [00:14:18] So really recognizing that, asking them not being afraid to say what feels expensive to you, they’re like, oh, anything over $20 is expensive. You’re like, okay. Then you’ve got their reference point. Whereas if everybody’s a little bit different, the next person may come in and say, Yeah, I got these tickets and they were really cheap. And you want to say, what’s cheap to you? $20, you know, same dollars. But in therapy, it’s relative. You really want to know what’s relative Because what happens, for instance, you know, if you notice, your client is often saying, I went and got so-and-so, but I had a coupon or it was on sale or something like that, they’re telling you something. They’re not giving you shopping tips. But if you don’t- if you haven’t worked through this yourself, you may look at this and you may be like, What’s that website? I want to write that down. I want that sale, you know, because you have a belief that everything has to be on sale. So then you want to see it. So you don’t want to transfer that, but you want to say, what do you notice? You know, just they’re repeating a pattern to you. What do you notice? That everything has to be marked down. And then there’s some beauty there, you know, that’s therapeutic. Again, you’re approaching it with that compassionate curiosity, no judgment, so that they can have that and you’re not transferring your belief or your threshold. I talk a lot about thresholds, but I’ll pause and see if that makes sense before I go into thresholds. 

 

Linzy [00:15:44] Yes, yes, yes, it does make sense. And I do think that is a really helpful reminder, because I think many therapists have not worked through our own money stuff. Right. And so that is an interesting observation that you make that somebody says something and we want to move on from it. Like we’ve missed the fact that there’s richness there. Right. There’s something, there’s a reason they’re telling us this or like there’s beliefs there that warrants exploration. But if we are not comfortable with money, we’re going to want to skip over it. Right. And find a way to be like this isn’t relevant to the clinical information. Where’s the clinical information? And so I love pointing that out, that there there’s something there to be explored. And so, you know, pay attention if your clients are talking about how much things cost, what is that. 

 

Wendy [00:16:31] Or any kind of repeated words about it. Okay. So many things. So I want to talk about thresholds, but that also kind of brings up well, let me talk about thresholds, because this is important to really recognizing a lot of people have mental price marks or thresholds and they don’t even realize they do. And this is where, for therapists, from where you are, sitting in the chair, looking at your price point. So just doing a meditation, just doing a journaling exercise will help you bump into what is your threshold. Or it could also be called a block. It could be, you know, this invisible ceiling of, what if I charge 100 an hour? Or what if I charge 125 an hour? What if I charge 150 an hour? You know, like really going through and writing down each of those and you’ll hit the one of. Well, I’m not worth that. Right? That’s a block. It’s a threshold. It’s like I can’t charge stacks. I’m not worth it. And so it’s helpful to see that or if someone is- a lot of times now financial therapy, just parenthetically, it’s not it’s not coaching or advice giving. So somebody may say, I just can’t get my money together. That is not an invitation to come in and give them a budget. In fact, as you might imagine, one of the principles of financial therapy is kind of that idea of budget is to money, what diet is to food. So we want to move away from any sort of boxing in any way. But I know some therapists will feel compelled to come in and show them or if they say, I can’t figure out how to pay for my session. You know, some therapists will go in and say, well, let’s write down all your expenses and let’s write down all your bills. And then what you’re going to see is, well, no, they can’t afford to pay, you know. Then what are you going to do? But also, that’s not therapy. That’s not financial therapy. It’s coming in, going, What do you notice? How does this feel? How do you work towards solving this? You know, that kind of stuff, too. So looking at that, looking at not giving me a problem solving and also recognizing a lot of people spend under their- I’m allowed to spend under 50, anything that’s under $50 is fair game. Anything that’s under $100 is fair game. That’s a threshold. In other words, it’s like anything under $100 I get to ignore and avoid. And everybody’s a little different. 

 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yes. Yes. And those threshold pieces, you know, when you notice threshold, like, for instance, talking about fee threshold, because that’s obviously something that therapists think about a lot. Yes. If you are doing that journaling and you notice like, I’m allowed to charge 150 an hour, that’s fine. But if I go up to 190. That’s too much. That’s too much. What is the next step for a therapist once they’ve identified where a threshold is? 

 

Wendy [00:19:12] Yeah, a couple of different things that I encourage them to do first. Just sit with it. So that’s a big part. You know, this is therapeutically we’re slowing the process down, so sit with it. Then the next part might be to do the math on an annual basis and see how that number hits you. So maybe 190 an hour equals, you know, whatever. I cannot do math while I talk. But really recognizing, okay, what does that mean? And then also what they’re not asking- where I help therapists, where I encourage them to start is before you think about the clients, just sort of close that curtain a little bit and let’s look at your home. What is the money you want to bring home? What is the money you’re wanting to contribute to your family? And sometimes they can’t even touch that yet. So until we can touch that, we can’t set a fee. You know, so we’re setting a fee based on some beliefs. But, you know, and mindset is a belief that may or may not be a truth. So we’re setting a fee based on that, based on what we’ve read or what we’ve seen or whatever. But I really want you to come back and say, what does your family need to make the family work? Often that’s been hugely avoided and they’re just using their therapy as a stopgap for solving problems and surviving at home. Right. And that’s painful. And then you’re always on edge. And then a client doesn’t pay. And it- you know, it’s a Jenga game at home, and you’re just like, boom, there it goes. So we want to start with that. Then we want to come back into also look at your story. Where did that become too much money or something like that? 

 

Linzy [00:20:52] Yes. Yeah. And, you know, with that piece at home, something else that I noticed with that piece is like also when you don’t know how much you need at home, the tendency can be that nothing is enough, right? Because you’re like, I probably need more at home, right? And so, you know, when we’re just like pulling – like lots of folks who come into Money Skills, and I’m sure you see this behavior, too, in the folks that you support – they’re just pulling money from the business whenever they need to pay a bill at home. So there’s no clarity on how much is actually needed at home. But also there’s just this kind of like urgent, almost like vortex nature to the home finances where it’s like I just feed the monster as much as I can, which means and you know, clinically what that means is like you are probably saying yes to folks when you’re too tired, you’re overbooking your week, you’re agreeing to times that really aren’t great times for you to work because you don’t want to say no to the money because it’s like more and more and more. And it’s such a losing game, right? Like it’s it’s so unsustainable to not have that clarity. But I do agree, like it is kind of almost like a black box for some folks of just like home finances can feel very scary to look at, to like, get real about their numbers. Even folks who’ve done quite a bit of work and thinking in the business, home can still feel very loaded and heavy. 

 

Wendy [00:22:06] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because so often we’re split. We have sort of I mean, I will confess I have a business mind. And then I have a home mind. They don’t always talk to each other. 

 

Linzy [00:22:16] No, absolutely. Yeah. And like, something that I encourage folks to do, which is kind of a- it’s a bit of a stopgap measure, but it does help, is like if you do have the business stuff working, like use that to power up your personal goals while you’re still working on the home finance skills. Like pay for your retirement from your business. As if your business self is super good with money, but home self it’s still blurry or there’s issues because partner has different ideas about money because there’s all those dynamics too. At least use that machine to take care of you financially while you’re working on like the personal finance stuff. Because it takes a minute. Right. Like there’s a lot of pieces to untangle there. Yeah. So, Wendy, I want to hear one more. Can you give me one more of the principles of having these conversations with clients? 

 

Wendy [00:22:57] The principles of financial therapy, well, yes. So, gosh, I love them all. They’re like my little children. Although-. 

 

Linzy [00:23:06] I know there’s ten, so I’m like, let’s be selective. I know you love them all, but what’s your favorite? 

 

Wendy [00:23:09] Well, I really like this one because this is where I often wind up starting with people is a plan is only as good as the adjustment process. And this comes out of how many times- and again, people listening, don’t raise your hand, I know you’re driving because I was driving earlier today and listening to you, so. How many times you’ve started a pretty multicolored budget, quote unquote, air quotes, budget. And we want to look at where did it dissolve? Because usually it dissolves in the first 30 to 90 days. So we want to come back to that. Typically, what I have found is it dissolves because there’s not an adjustment process. So it looks really pretty. Yes. But we’ve got to know how to adjust it, whether it be for ourselves, our partner, life partners or business partners, whatever. And so the adjustment process is what I work with clients on a lot before we even get to a plan. And, you know, I know this frustrates the hell out of them. They’re just like, Can we get to the numbers, get us some homework, you know? And I’m like, Yes, we’ll get there. Trust the process, which I know is horrible for us to say no. So it’s so true. So but really understanding and the adjustment process is a lot about, in short, communication skills. So we’ll just say that because we want to use good communication skills and also about knowing where we want to go. So a lot of money is done by looking in the rearview mirror and going, What the hell just happened? You know? But we want to look out. We want to look out at least 12 months. And this can be done. It can be done. It feels daunting, but it can be done. And so we start with that kind of idea and begin to create something that’s more mindful and meditative. 

 

Linzy [00:24:51] Yeah, I like that. Yeah. With that adjustment piece, too, when do you like, I’m curious if you also see this. Like, I see so much perfectionism and rigidity come into our relationship with money and then with a budget, because I know folks will have, you know, this question as they’re working on budgeting methods in Money Skills for Therapists. It’s like, But what do I do if it changes? And as it will, it is going to change. They will change, right? Yes. So it’s like, that’s not a failure. If your budget doesn’t look to plan, it’s that like being with and being flexible and yeah, the adjusting that actually makes something sustainable, right? Because we’re humans living human lives. 

 

Wendy [00:25:31] Yeah. I think normalizing that is a huge part of what you and I are doing. We’re just saying yes, absolutely. It’s probably one of the most frustrating things that we say to professionals because I will say right off the bat, money work is never done. It’s never done. Yeah. So we’re building you know, think of it in terms of a framework. That’s why I like percentages instead of like- and also we want to look at how many times the word “should” comes up. So if they’re building their budget off of what Google says a family of three or whatever should be spending, yes, we already are going to have a problem. So look at that. We want to spend some time and yeah, first with our own spaghetti on the wall, see what sticks. Okay, so maybe we thought X number of dollars was a good target and then we found out that it’s really more like this, taking that shame out and also taking that image, that idea that there was some malicious intent somewhere because there just wasn’t. We’re all just trying to figure it out as we go. So really softening that compassion can make a big difference too.  

 

Linzy [00:26:35] Mm hmm. Beautiful. Wendy, I’m so glad you came on the podcast today. It’s been wonderful having you. For folks who are listening, where can they find you? They want to get further into your world. 

 

Wendy [00:26:44] Absolutely. So Financial Therapy Solutions dot com is the website and there are currently a couple of workbooks on there if they want to dive into this a little bit. And then also I’m working- they’ll be links by the time this comes out. Awesome links for a foundational course to begin that process because I stay full most- there’s like there’s, I think less than 100 financial therapists. We need more. So hopefully this has at least helped more therapists just begin to open up some money dialogs at least. So I’m working on a course that will help with some of the foundational, some of these things, some exercises and worksheets and things like that, that will take this to the next level. 

 

Linzy [00:27:24] Wonderful. Okay, so folks, go to Wendy’s website, get her freebies, watch out for her course. Thank you so much for joining me today, Wendy. 

 

Wendy [00:27:31] You bet. I loved it. 

 

Linzy [00:27:46] In my conversation with Wendy, something that really sticks out is just this piece about how, as therapists, we can kind of skip over opportunities to talk with our clients about money. Right. We avoid things if we haven’t done the work. Which means, conversely, if we do our own work and if we are digging into our own money stories and basically building up our own tolerance to be curious about money and be with money in our own lives, that can also translate into our therapeutic relationships. Right. And we know, I hope, you know, listening to this podcast, that money is such an important part of our lives and such an unavoidable part of our lives that can be so loaded and so stressful. So I get excited thinking about, you know, folks listening today, this week, when you’re in sessions with your own clients and just having an ear out for opportunities where somebody might be giving you some clues that talking about money would be helpful for them and working on your own tolerance to sit with and be curious about. And like Wendy said, not trying to skip over it, you know, matching it with your own thoughts about money or putting your own money stories into that. But having that kind of open curiosity that we would have if a client mentioned something about a relationship or food or their sexual relationship with their partner, just have that like openness to give your client a chance to maybe tell you something that they really need to talk about, but they don’t know how to tell you that they really need to talk about it. I like that idea of a bit more financial therapy happening in the world because of this conversation with Wendy. So so I appreciate her joining me today. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And you know what I’m going to say. If you’re enjoying the podcast, I would so appreciate if you jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to listen in and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Peter [00:00:04] It feels lighter. I have more choices. I have more freedom. I think that’s really the thing about wealth is that it gives me freedom and flexibility. Like, I don’t care about buying things. I just want the flexibility to like work or not work or go somewhere or outsource something. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. So today’s podcast is a coaching episode with Peter H. Addy. Peter is a grad of Money Skills For Therapists. He finished up the program about 18 months ago. We were talking about on the interview and Peter is an educator and a trainer who helps compassionate healthcare professionals who want to become psychedelic-informed or psychedelic affirming. He’s also a therapist who helps psychedelic curious adults with chronic health issues who want to find purpose and courage through transformation. And he’s also a faculty at an Oregon-approved psilocybin facilitator training program. And he used to be a research scientist at Yale. So today, Peter and I get into the complexities of having two separate businesses. He’s got that educator business and also his therapy business, two separate businesses that are both growing and trying to do profit first, kind of with both of them. And you’ll hear in our conversation, we kind of start with the numbers, trying to figure out the numbers and the profit first system. But our conversation switches gear fairly quickly towards bigger picture. You’ll hear that kind of shift in the conversation. If you find yourself kind of struggling with numbers that are not the numbers you want to see, or the complexity of kind of having like two businesses and how do you make things work, this episode will be great for you to help you take perspective on what are the things that really matter and where should we be putting our energy and our focus as we’re growing businesses? And what are the things that can be kind of set aside to dig into later once our businesses are where we want them to be? Here is my coaching session with Peter H. Addy. So Peter, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Peter [00:02:49] Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:02:51] So getting into what we want to talk about today, Peter, you were a student in Money Skills For Therapists a couple years ago, is that correct? Am I timing that correctly? 

 

Peter [00:03:00] Yeah, I started two years ago. 

 

Linzy [00:03:03] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:03:03] So what was that? It’s a six-month thing. 

 

Linzy [00:03:06] Yeah. So it’s been like about 18 months since we would have worked together. So coming into our podcast recording today, our coaching session, what would be most helpful for us to focus on today? 

 

Peter [00:03:17] Yeah, well, I recently started a second business, so I have my therapy business and then I do some training. The next level therapist course, Maegan Megginson, and she really laid out kind of the in a detailed, easy-to-understand way, when it’s appropriate to have two businesses or not and like how to do that in an ethical way. And I started realizing I’ve been running two businesses for years, but they were just all under one umbrella. I do therapy, I do supervision, and I also do like professional education for continuing education and training for health care professionals. So I’ve spun that out into a second business. It’s its own legal entity and bank accounts and website and email address. So they’re like totally separate things now. And that’s great. In a lot of ways, it helps me just be clear about my audience. I realized, you know, I’ve been collecting email addresses for a mailing list for years, but I’ve sent out like two emails ever because like, who am I writing this to? Am I writing this to potential clients or am I writing this to professional colleagues? 

 

Linzy [00:04:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Peter [00:04:27] Same with blogs or social media or anything. Like I don’t know who I’m writing for, but now, now I have two different audiences. And so there’s just it’s really great to be clear about that and to know, like depending on what email address the message has coming to me, it still goes to the same box on the same device. But like it’s it automatically filters like, what does this person want to talk to me about? 

 

Linzy [00:04:49] Yes, you you’ve segmented your audience now for those two different businesses. 

 

Peter [00:04:54] Exactly. So it’s really great for that. But now I have twice as many bank accounts too. I use profit first. So that’s a lot of bank accounts. 

 

Linzy [00:05:03] Yes. That’s a lot of bank accounts. Yes. Okay. 

 

Peter [00:05:05] Yeah. And trying to figure out what are my like, what are my caps or taps or like, we don’t have to go into like that level of detail maybe. I mean, we could we could not. But like just sort of in general, like, how much money do I need in a month? Like, I have a general idea, Like overall, here’s how much money I would like to see, but it’s coming from two different sources now. And for education, business is very sporadic. I did a training just last week which went very well, kind of a two-hour intro to psychedelics for health care providers. My next one’s in September. So, you know, like every like maybe 3 to- 3 months or something if I get money, like, that’s really weird. That’s hard. 

 

Linzy [00:05:47] Yeah. And that, that is- Yeah, my first kind of wondering is with the second business. So let’s say the first business is therapy, supervision, clinical work. The second business is your education training business. What is the income looking like in that second business right now? 

 

Peter [00:06:03] So I have some trainings for another company and I get a percentage of sales for that recording and that could be- lately that’s been averaging like $100 a month. No, it’s not a huge deal. And then if I have a training, like a live thing that they sell tickets to, maybe this one I got a percentage of sales, which was really nice. The next one, it’s a flat fee and they’re usually a flat fee and that’s pretty sporadic. Like, So I had June and then I got September, probably October. That one’s not finalized yet, but so. And that’s it for the year. 

 

Linzy [00:06:37] Yeah. It sounds almost like quarterly for those it’s kind of like every three months there’s like a training. 

 

Peter [00:06:42] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:06:42] If we average it out for the year so like four trainings a year. But wondering that I have is how, how much do you want that business to grow. 

 

Peter [00:06:50] Ideally, I would like that to be most of my business like maybe- and that could be 51%. You know, like I enjoy being a therapist. Like I get something out of that that helps fill my cup in a way, but I don’t want that to be everything. And it’s really important to me to move away from one on one services for two reasons. First of all, because then I can reach more people on a good week. Like there’s a pretty low ceiling for how many, how many like hours. I can be seeing people. 

 

Linzy [00:07:22] Of course. 

 

Peter [00:07:23] So like I’m- if I want to affect more people, I have to do one too many offerings. And two, I really like doing education stuff like I could just do groups, but I like the education because it’s a lot of it is asynchronous and that’s really important to me. I have chronic health issues that I’m constantly working on and that’s unpredictable. Maybe this week I could see 20 clients if I wanted to, but next week, maybe not. 

 

Linzy [00:07:45] Yeah. 

 

Peter [00:07:45] No, I can’t- I need flexibility and being able to just create educational content whenever I feel like it.  That works really well for me. 

 

Linzy [00:07:58] Yeah. I’m speaking as someone who’s kind of on that other side where I have flipped, in my case, fully into education. It is much more flexible and demands less of us on a weekly basis. It’s kind of like you can show up and create something amazing when you’re feeling great and when you’re not. There’s much less demand on your energy, period. So I certainly see a lot of wisdom in that path for you. So then thinking about where you’re at now, what I’m hearing is lots of bank accounts between the two and also how to think about these pots of money or what to maybe expect from these pots of money. Tell me more about what’s not clear right now of how to manage these two different pools of money. 

 

Peter [00:08:37] Two things come to my mind. One is, for both businesses, my income is unpredictable. That is the single most difficult and uncomfortable thing about being a therapist. I talk to family and friends who work for a company and I don’t want to go back to working for a company. I don’t think I could do that. But like man, to just like, know what’s going to be in your bank every two weeks. That sounds nice. 

 

Linzy [00:09:04] Yes, absolutely. Okay. 

 

Peter [00:09:05] So that’s hard in general. And now if you have like two kinds of inconsistent income. So one item is like how much? You know, I’m trying to to come to a certain number. And some of that is coming from clients and some of that is coming from training. So it’s harder for me to like, know what to reach for, you know, what are my targets, and then, too, thinking about business expenses. This training business that I just made, there really aren’t any. Like I bought a year of Canva. Like, what am I going to do? Like, maybe like, I’ll buy a nice microphone or write something, but like, that’s a very low cost business. And so, yes, maybe that’s fine. Like, maybe just I mean, they’re both LLC, so it all just goes into the same pot for taxes anyway. So anyway, doesn’t really matter. But just like for the government, it doesn’t really matter where the expense goes. But for me personally, like, yeah, like just maybe it’s okay to just have a business with like $100 of expenses a year. Like, is that okay? I guess that’s okay. 

 

Linzy [00:10:10] Yes. Yes. Yeah. And with this, like, what I’m hearing is that right now, too, the way things look, gradually you’d like to kind of shift gears, right? And this is a podcast and nobody can see me, but I’ve got like kind of two levers and they’re switching position so that eventually it’s that more of your income is coming from this like this teaching work and less of it relatively is coming from therapy right now it’s very much the other way where it sounds like right now the vast majority of your income, the way that things are set up now, will be coming from therapy or is coming from therapy. And the teaching stuff is just kind of starting, right? Like you’re really establishing that business. And so with that, like there’s a couple of things that come to mind with me. Partly what I’m thinking about is what you’re looking for in terms of that stability. That is something that you can create, right? Part of your puzzle is deciding how you want to create it. So right now, the language that one of my business colleagues uses for her therapy is her bread and butter, right? So she’s got a teaching business and has gotten some traction with it, but it’s nothing compared to what she can build or earn because of her clinical work, because she’s built a reputation for years. It’s the work that she usually does. Right now, therapy is your bread and butter. So one curiosity that I have is like, how quickly do you want to start to make this transition where you can rely less on therapy and start to rely more on that teaching work? 

 

Peter [00:11:32] Yeah, it’s a good question. A year maybe, you know, 9 months, 12 months, that would be pretty good. I guess. There’s definitely some things that will be going on in my life about nine months in the future. It’d be nice to be kind of like settled by then. If that’s realistic, I don’t know. 

 

Linzy [00:11:51] Sure. Yeah, because something that I am thinking about here is making a stepped plan for yourself in these numbers, because part of the puzzle is figuring out how you want the money to flow so that you have that regular paycheck, which, you know, I’m very passionate about stability and that is something that is can add a lot of value to your life, especially when health can go up and down knowing that there’s enough stability built into your numbers, that you’re still going to get paid the same amount. Whether it’s been a good week or a bad week is very valuable, right? So there’s that piece. But then also it’s thinking about the second variable of like shifting gears. So more money’s starting to come in from teaching and less money is coming in from therapy and that teaching business can start to take care of you more. There’s less reliance on the therapy work, more on the teaching. So that’s almost like it’s two different pieces, but it’s here and I’m saying like kind of like a there’s a path there that can be laid out that solves both of those problems together. 

 

Peter [00:12:42] Okay. 

 

Linzy [00:12:43] My first question with where you are right now is, do you know how much you need to earn to bring home the paycheck that you need to take care of your household? 

 

Peter [00:12:52] Yeah, I. I ran those numbers and I don’t remember. I do remember that ten clients a week would meet the minimum. You know, I’m not going to be, like, saving for fancy trips to Europe or anything, but ten clients a week consistently will like, be just enough. 

 

Linzy [00:13:10] So covers your needs. That’s not your wants. 

 

Peter [00:13:13] And that was also, I remember, ten clients a week assuming my full rate. I’m on a few insurance panels. I’m selective. You know, just the ones that like pay well and don’t want lots of things from me. 

 

Linzy [00:13:25] Yes. Don’t make life too difficult. 

 

Peter [00:13:27] Yeah, but so if we assume a full rate, which is 180 an hour. Yeah. What did I say, ten clients a week. Yeah. So it’s just under 8000 a month of revenue. 

 

Linzy [00:13:37] And you know what your assumed business expenses would have been without your operating expenses that come out of it? 

 

Peter [00:13:42] Let’s see. My target right now is I think like 25%. It’s higher now, but that’s what I want to like move towards. 

 

Linzy [00:13:49] So if it’s 25%, so $2,000 month is towards operating expenses. And so that would leave $6,000 as kind of what’s left for you. Some of that is taxes. So some of that is paycheck. So $6,000 a month thinking about that now. So if we did $6,000 a month, if we take out your tax rate, do you have clarity on what your effective tax rate is, how much we should be assuming you need to put aside?  

 

Peter [00:14:15] My old accountant- I just switched so my old tax preparer was saying 25% of net. 

 

Linzy [00:14:19] Of net. 

 

Peter [00:14:19] My new tax preparer saying 30% of net. 

 

Linzy [00:14:23] Little higher. 

 

Peter [00:14:24] So I’ve been doing split the difference. 27.5. 

 

Linzy [00:14:28] I had a feeling you were going to say that. 

 

Peter [00:14:29] 10% of whatever’s left after. 

 

Linzy [00:14:33] Okay. Yeah. So in this case it would be like $6,000 times 0.275. So you’re putting aside $1650 for taxes. And then are there any other things with your profit first that you try to save for in the business? So are there any of the profit first buckets you have right now? 

 

Peter [00:14:51] Right now I’m just at the minimum so I have- I’m doing 1% per for profit and I’ve also created a have a retirement and that’s also just the minimum 1%. 

 

Linzy [00:15:00] And we’re holding space for those, which is great. So profit 1%, retirement is 1%, taxes- to clarify, Peter, that’s 27.5% of your revenue coming in like that’s your profit first number or is that that’s your take home. 

 

Peter [00:15:14] Revenue minus OpEx. 

 

Linzy [00:15:16] Okay, so it’s off your net. Okay. So do you know how that fits into your profit calculator right now. 

 

Peter [00:15:20] Yeah, it’s about the number that you came up with. I think it was like 16 or 17% of gross. 

 

Linzy [00:15:25] Okay. Okay. So with this now, like thinking about these numbers, how close are you now to seeing these numbers of like the 8000 off the top and then being able to distribute all the money to these percentages? 

 

Peter [00:15:38] I’m like halfway there- this week is a holiday week. So it’s weird. But last week, last few weeks, I’ve been averaging about five clients a week. 

 

Linzy [00:15:46] Okay. 

 

Peter [00:15:46] Like half of what I would like. 

 

Linzy [00:15:49] Yeah. Okay. So you’re halfway there. Looking at your business growth because you just reopened your doors two months ago. Right. To put this in context, looking at your growth, how long do you think it’s going to take you to get up to that 8000? That’s the base that you like to see? 

 

Peter [00:16:03] I don’t know. That’s a really hard thing. In my own business. I’ve never been full, like I’ve never had enough. I had my own business. And then for a while I worked at a group practice and then I went back to just having my own business. In the group practice, I was full, but then I was not making much because I was in a group practice. But in my own business, I’ve never really, like gotten enough people. So I know, like in your training, you know, you had this great idea of put money into an owner’s comp account and then if it’s more than I actually need. 

 

Linzy [00:16:35] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:16:36] Leave the extra there. 

 

Linzy [00:16:37] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:16:38] With a low month. But I’ve never really consistently I don’t want to say never, but I’ve never consistently. 

 

Linzy [00:16:43] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:16:43] made what I need. 

 

Linzy [00:16:45] Had that experience. Yes. 

 

Peter [00:16:46] Yeah. Which is another reason to try a different business because this first business has not been consistently getting me what I need. 

 

Linzy [00:16:53] Yes. And we also know that it comes with risks for you because it’s so reliant on having to show up in a certain way that takes a lot of energy. So this is where I’m thinking about that shift towards the other business, too, right? Because we can think about these two businesses as almost two pieces of the puzzle that together will support you. Yeah, right. And I’m hearing that so far and that’s the past. So it doesn’t mean it’s the future, but so far you have not had the experience of being able to get the clients that you want to have the amount from your private practice that you want to see with this. Like my curiosity then goes to what is possible in that second business to get those numbers working so that you are being taken care of without having to push to see probably more clients than you might be wanting to see anyways in terms of your health. Because right now I know part of your question when you had submitted it before we chatted today was like working with numbers when you’re building and it’s not really there. Right. And so right now, as you said, like your upgrade expenses are relatively higher because those expenses don’t go down just because you’re not seeing the clients you want to see. Yeah, but, you know, I could see from the outside knowing you, I’m like, I think you can get up to that eight that you want to see, and then that’s going to change your optics. But it’s also like, what is your long term plan, right? And how can you start thinking about that long term well-being and long term business sustainability, which sounds like it’s leaning more towards teaching, right, getting that teaching work. And so I’m curious, Peter, from an energetic perspective, how much energy each week do you give to each of these businesses? 

 

Peter [00:18:28] I’d say like my target energy percentages. I rent an office and I see clients two days a week. So I try to just think about my therapy business two days a week, and then I try to think about my training business two days a week, and then Fridays, maybe I do a little extra work if there’s a deadline or something. Or I could just not. So Friday is kind of an optional day. I’m trying to do like an even split. Doesn’t always happen that way. But that’s the goal. 

 

Linzy [00:18:55] Yes. And with the work that you’re putting in on those two days a week for the teaching business, what have you been working on to bring up the revenue in that business? 

 

Peter [00:19:05] Yeah, well, lately it’s just been preparing for this training that was just, you know a week ago. Wow. What a long week. That was just a week ago. There’s, you know, creating material for training for other people. I also really want to try my hand at hosting my own training, you know, doing my own webinar or a masterclass or something that’s entirely, you know, self-hosted. Creating material. That’s number one, just like making content and reading papers and stuff, staying up to date on content and other people’s content, making my own content. That’s definitely the bulk of it. But also doing kind of some relationship marketing and just seeing who else is there. I got a list of some podcasts to reach out to, I haven’t reached out to anyone else yet, but get the word out there. And it’s mostly been local relationship marketing that I’ve been doing, not as much in online spheres, but I’m sure I’ll get to that eventually.  

 

Linzy [00:20:02] Yeah. Because thinking about that and like, I like your framing, your target percentages for your energetic distribution, that one-to-many business model has so much more potential to bring revenue. Right? And it’s like you you can build it when you’re feeling good, right? You create material you feel really good about and literally thousands of people can consume that material individually on their own pace, as you mentioned, asynchronously, and get great value from it, right? Even if you recorded it five years ago, that can be the case. And so as you’re thinking about your business energy, I am curious about what would happen if you made a specific plan to actually get revenue really going in the teaching business. I’d like actually thought about, okay, I’m going to do my own workshop for the first time in October. This is an example. Obviously you do whatever you want. And on those days, really work towards like building that list, right? Like getting those partnerships in place, booking a venue and really working towards like a large revenue-generating event that then can be replicated, right? Like making a signature training that you gave or a signature kind of experience. What do you notice thinking about bringing that kind of energy in like kind of really revenue informed and revenue focused business building activities? 

 

Peter [00:21:19] Yeah, I noticed two things. One is kind of excitement. I had begun doing some of that work in Next Level Therapist, and so I have kind of a skeleton of, of an idea that I’m working towards. And so I had been kind of putting that on the backburner because I had this deadline for this, you know, a training for this other company, and that’s over. So now I can reallocate that time to my own thing. Yes. So I’m excited to like, make that happen and like, build that thing. And also there’s some fear, there’s some unease because I’m you know, I’m really putting myself out there and it’s nice to make content for another company because they do all of the marketing, like should take a big chunk of the ticket sales, but they do all the marketing, they have their social media accounts, they handle payment processing and refunds and the like. They do everything. They do all the tech support, like it’s all on them. And I do my own thing that’s on me and I’ve never done this before. And like, what if, you know, what if I put myself out there and no one comes or people come, but then there’s a bunch of technical glitches or they don’t- What if they don’t like me? You know, that’s always that’s always part of the story. What if they don’t like me? Years of experience suggesting that that people will like me. 

 

Linzy [00:22:34] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:22:34] That’s that’s a story. That’s a voice in there. 

 

Linzy [00:22:37] Sure, Of course. Of course. Yeah. And I think if you think about the function of that voice, like, what is that voice trying to do for you? 

 

Peter [00:22:44] Keep me safe. 

 

Linzy [00:22:45] Yeah, Keep you safe. Keep you small. 

 

Peter [00:22:47] Yeah. Small is safe, quiet and invisible is safe. 

 

Linzy [00:22:51] I’m curious, Peter, when you have done trainings and you have put yourself out there and like I might be projecting, but I know for me when I have these moments where I’m like teaching and I’m in the group and you’re just like, I’m in it. Like, this is good. I’m in my space. I’m curious like, what is it like when you really are in that teaching space? 

 

Peter [00:23:07] Yeah, it’s exciting. This one I did last week, like I finished it and I was like, I was feeling high, you know? And I wasn’t. I wasn’t high, but I was, you know, we were talking about drugs for 2 hours. 

 

Linzy [00:23:17] To clarify. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Peter [00:23:18] But I was. Yeah, just really I was up, you know, I was just energized. I think it’s probably the best training I’ve ever done. Yeah. No, it’s my first time trying making it in Canva instead of Google slides. Just like it just looks prettier. The way that I kind of paced myself went really well. I had the Q&A was like, there were too many questions. Like, there wasn’t enough time. 

 

Linzy [00:23:43] Yes. 

 

Peter [00:23:43] I’ve done this training before and it’s like crickets. And that’s that’s the worst. Yeah. I mean, I can ramble on if no one has any questions for me, but I can fill space. But it’s it’s just it felt good that they were like people wanted to talk to me more than I had room for. 

 

Linzy [00:23:58] So, yes, it felt good. Yeah. And talking about this now what do you notice? 

 

Peter [00:24:02] Yeah, I’m just. I’m feeling more kind of up. More like lighter. 

 

Linzy [00:24:05] Mm hmm. When I think about where you’re at and you’ve got these two streams of income, neither one is where you want them to be. And there’s lots of complexity we can add to that, right? Like, we could totally spend an hour digging into your exact profit first percentages and exactly how to manage the, like, not enough money yet. I think that’s in the weeds. Does that phrase make sense to you when I say that? Being in the weeds? 

 

Peter [00:24:29] Yeah, I think so. 

 

Linzy [00:24:30] Yeah. And being in the weeds can feel safe in a way. It’s like when you have this little math problem to work on, you get to get nice and small and mathy and try to figure it out and make it perfect. And what I’m noticing is when you actually talk about this teaching work and the actual experience of being in it, there’s this expanding, right? There’s this up that happens this lift in your energy, right? And that is what’s actually going to bring in the money, then you can divide up. That is what I would suggest you follow, right? If that’s where the inspiration is, because people can feel that from you. Right. And when you’ve really, like, owned your own excitement and passion and you’ve done all this work that you’re doing to be very informed and bring in all the research and you’re able to educate people about something that you are genuinely excited about and knowledgeable about. They feel that from you and they’re going to tell their colleagues like, Oh, Peter does this great training, the next time you’re doing an event, or you know, for other folks who are wondering about psychedelics. And so I’m wondering like if you shifted your gears to really focus on like doing something bigger than you’ve ever done before and inviting in the idea that you might actually not be able to just get by but make like good money doing this work that you love, what is that like? 

 

Peter [00:25:48] Oh, it’s there’s a whole complicated thing there. That’s a lot. I feel excited and I have in the past been in a good place financially. I used to be a research scientist and I made more money than I knew what to do with. And yeah, when I- even working at the group practice, like they were taking a percent. So, you know, it wasn’t- I wasn’t making great money, but it was more than I needed. It was more than the minimum. Yeah. And I felt good. Like it feels, it feels lighter. I have more choices. I have more freedom. I think that’s really the thing about wealth is that it gives me freedom and flexibility. Like, I don’t care about buying things. I just want the flexibility to like work or not work or go somewhere or outsource something. 

 

Linzy [00:26:35] Yeah, And with that, then I’m curious about what would be the good numbers that you want to see between these two businesses, right? Like when I ask you your numbers, you know, your like getting by number, right? If it was more than the getting by number and let’s think about your salary right now. Let’s just think about your life, your take home paycheck, just cash in hand each month. What is the number for you that does give you that freedom and flexibility and like more than the minimum that brings, like, good things into your life? 

 

Peter [00:27:07] Mm hmm. Yeah. I’m not sure. I haven’t really done, like, dummies analysis on my personal expenses. Just have been focusing on the business. But to be able to see, like, whatever the minimum is and then, I don’t know, just a little bit more or a lot more. Yeah, I don’t have a specific number right now. 

 

Linzy [00:27:25] Yeah, And it could be a lot more. Right. Because my experience of your energy during this conversation and from working with you before is like, I know that you know how to get by and be, like, restrained or judicious or like, you know, like you don’t, you don’t ask for a lot. You don’t ask for a lot of space, you know. But I also see this like other part of you today that is sparky and- sparky is too strong a word. But that up I can feel that up energy and go right. And I’ll be curious what an up version of your life would look like. Not just your work, but actually your life. If you had a more inspired, energized version of your world, like what would be part of it? What would make life rich or meaningful? Like what do you want more of in your world? And that’s actually a question I’m asking you. What would you want more of in your world? 

 

Peter [00:28:14] Yeah, in my personal life, as well as my business life, I’d really love to be able to outsource things. Doing physically strenuous tasks for me is difficult. So like hiring someone to, like, clean my house and that’s not a considerable expense, like I’ve priced it, like that’s not like- I don’t have to be a millionaire to hire a housekeeper. So like outsourcing, that would be great. Outsourcing meals, you know, like it’s cheap. I make all my own meals because it’s cheap. And I know what the ingredients are. It’s healthy. I can fit all my, you know, sensitivities and allergens and stuff. But to be able to have someone do that for me, that would be great. So, yeah, it’s kind of like just outsourcing tasks and energy expenditure that I would rather expend that energy on something else. 

 

Linzy [00:28:58] Yes. Yes. Yeah. And the other piece, you know, that maybe somewhere else to get support is in that teaching business, right? So you mentioned like maybe have $100 a year expenses and that is a version of business, right? That’s like the bootstrapped like super simple because you do it all yourself. But I would be curious about what would become possible for you if you brought on a VA who is like really good at tech or like loves marketing or who can help you stay organized, like fill in any gaps that you have where you know, you tend to fall down because we all have them and have a team member to like be excited with you about some big training or event or like finally recording your signature course, but then you can just have for sale, right? Like what would it be like to bring more support into that business? 

 

Peter [00:29:43] Yeah, that would be wonderful. Just someone to, you know, to kind of the- definitely the marketing stuff and some of the organizational things like some parts of organization I’m good at and kind of come naturally. I used to be a research scientist, so like I’m, I’m all about spreadsheets and like procedures, but there’s other parts of like organizing content and workflows that I just, I don’t know, and maybe I could learn or I could just pay someone who’s already learned. 

 

Linzy [00:30:12] Yeah. And there are certain things I think, too, that we, we will enjoy learning and would be a satisfaction there. And there are certain things like, like I hate doing websites, I just hate it. It’s irrational, you know, like how much I dislike it, but I don’t do my own websites and I don’t do my own tech. There’s just certain things that I’ve outsourced from the very beginning, and it means that I haven’t had to give bandwidth over to learning something difficult, that it’s just never going to be enjoyable for me. Yeah. And then can channel that energy towards the things I am good at or the things that I would enjoy learning. The challenges that I want. Right? So coming towards the end of our conversation today, Peter, I’m curious, what are you taking away? What sticks out for you in our conversation today? 

 

Peter [00:30:50] Let’s see. Yes, focusing on- or not focusing, but allowing more space for the big picture and kind of the feelings and like, here’s what I want things to look like. It’s also important to think about like the details and percentages, but it doesn’t have to be the focus. So just kind of having a balance of the the big picture in the small picture space isn’t quite the right word, but some sort of like belief or, you know, I I’m following the hypothesis that I can do this, so I’ll figure it out maybe in nine months or I don’t know when, but probably this’ll work. I mean, it might work, right? 

 

Linzy [00:31:30] Yeah. And I’m curious, like if it was even stronger than that, if it was like, I am figuring this out. 

 

Peter [00:31:36] Hmm. 

 

Linzy [00:31:37] Or even the belief of I’m going to figure this out and make this really cool thing happen at this time, what would it be like to have even a little bit more? 

 

Peter [00:31:46] I am in the process of making this work. Yeah, I don’t. I’m not there yet, but I’m on that path. I have, like, things in place that I’m doing. 

 

Linzy [00:31:53] Yes. And I would be really excited and I really do encourage you to think about doing something that scares you, right? Because I’m familiar with the small, the staying small and staying safe. But I’m also hearing you already have lots of evidence that people like and not just appreciate what you do, but as you said, like have so many questions and want so much of you that there literally wasn’t time for you to answer all the questions that I’m sure you would have loved to answer and had great things to say to them. That shows you that there’s appetite and demand and there is this kind of marketing saying that like, if you’re not making yourself accessible, if people can’t find you, you are denying them the gift that you would be giving them by having the chance to learn from you. And right now there’s probably lots of folks who want more from you even coming out of that training that they can’t find you. There’s nothing else that they can do with you. Right. How does that idea sit with you? But. It’s a little bit of like, I don’t know, a stick idea rather than a carrot, but that like you’re kind of denying people this great experience with you by not really showing up and being like, Here I am. Come over here for more with me. 

 

Peter [00:32:57] Yeah, that’s the mindset I’ve been working on. It is definitely the opposite of what I learned from, you know, childhood and earlier on, but all the more reason to challenge that. But it’s something I have to consciously try on, but it’s becoming easier to get to wear that. 

 

Linzy [00:33:13] I can perceive this different version of you emerging from this work, which is very exciting. And I will be very interested and curious to hear what a more expanded version of your work and your life looks like as you step into this space. Thank you so much, Peter, for joining me today. 

 

Peter [00:33:28] Yeah, thank you. 

 

Linzy [00:33:43] In my conversation with Peter today, you heard that kind of shift midway where I could really feel that it was really the big picture that we needed to get into when we are working on something and it’s not where we want it to be yet. You know, Peter’s like two months into being back in practice. The numbers aren’t where he wants them to be yet. Eventually he wants that training business, that education business, to be most of his income. That’s not where he is right now. When we’re in that place, it can be easy to focus in on the numbers and try to like, make them work and like work them and rework them or rework them. But the reality is, is that counting money does not generate more money. Right. So if you’re in that place where there actually isn’t enough money, you know, you know that you need revenue growth in your business, trying to make your profit percentages perfect or looking at your numbers from 15 different angles is not going to make more money. What is going to make a difference to your business is channeling your energy towards those strategic, expansive, generative activities to like find your people and call them in, whether it’s clients or, in Peter’s case, building out that teaching business and making more resources, making himself easier to find, to serve those folks who want to learn about psychedelics, that is going to be far more impactful on your business than kind of reorganizing your pennies when there just isn’t enough of them. So it can be very tempting to get into that like small space and that can feel safe. But ultimately, what many of us have to do is that expansive work of being seen and putting ourselves out there and risking finding people who aren’t our people or risking crickets. But by doing that, that’s how we actually let the clients or audience that are for us, we let them find us and we start to be able to create the space where we can actually serve them or make the things to serve them. It’s that big picture work that actually makes the biggest difference in your business at the end of the day. And then you have money that you can purposely direct and set up those beautiful profit first percentages and all of that. But making money ultimately is going to get you much closer to where you want to be, than kind of tweaking percentages on numbers that you know are not working for you yet. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can also check me out on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And also if you’re enjoying the podcast, if you leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, it’s a help to have other folks who would be interested in hearing these conversations about therapy and money. It helps them find us if you leave an Apple podcast review. So if you have 5 minutes right now or you’re not doing anything, I would sincerely appreciate if you would go and leave us a podcast review. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Jenn [00:00:03] And that is the gift that therapists have, that marketers in general and copywriters in general really have to work to hone, is we know what it’s like to see another person. And what scares us, I think, is often in seeing the other we are also seen. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?”. I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is a return guest, Jenn Fredette. But before I get into introducing her and telling you about what we’re going to dive into today, I wanted to share a review of this love for the podcast on Apple Podcasts. The review says “Crucial for Money Blocks. I love this podcast and look forward to listening every week! I’m learning how to work smarter, not harder, and addressing my money blocks. Linzy Bonham does a great job helping listeners really look at deeper layers of innate worthiness and all the parts that come up around this stuff”. Thank you so much, dh145 for leaving this review. I so appreciate these reviews. It’s nice to get the feedback and it’s also so helpful, as I always say at the end of the podcast, for other therapists to find us, other therapists and practitioners. Apple Podcast reviews is a great way for people to know if a podcast is for them or not. So today’s guest, as I mentioned, is Jenn Fredette, she’s a returning guest. Jenn is, she’s actually a Money Skills for Therapist Grad going back to my very first beta cohort that I did in 2018. So I’ve known Jenn a long time and she helps therapists with their marketing. She helps therapists market with depth and authenticity. And today in our conversation we get into talking about why marketing can be so hard for therapists. This idea of being under-resourced and what that means for us as people and therapists and how that shows up in our marketing. We talk a little bit about how we end up kind of telling on ourselves in our marketing and showing sometimes more than we intend to about the things that we’re struggling with through the way that we’re marketing. And also how to tell if you are under-resourced in your marketing and what to do if you discover that you are not having the resources that you need to do the marketing that you want to do to really attune and call in your people. As always, the conversation with Jenn today is depthful and takes lots of fun twists and turns and is always about so much more than marketing, which as the Apple Podcast review that I read just said, you know, there’s always the deeper layers that I love exploring around money and Jenn loves exploring marketing, and you’re going to get a lot of that today. Here’s my conversation with Jenn Fredette. 

 

Linzy [00:03:23] So Jenn, welcome back to the podcast. 

 

Jenn [00:03:25] Thanks for having me, Linzy. I really appreciate it. 

 

Linzy [00:03:28] It’s nice to have you here again. And I have told you this before, but your last episode that we did about like doing your inner work in order to work on your money stuff is our top listened episode ever. 

 

Jenn [00:03:42] Well, hello, repeat listeners who come back for a second round. It’s so fun. I joked with you before we started recording was like, I didn’t even remember what I talked about. So thank you for reminding me.

 

Linzy [00:03:54] That’s what it was. That’s what it was. Yes. And it makes sense to me because I think that I fancy myself a bit of a depth seeker and like, you know, the meaning stuff. And so I think folks who listen, you know, also probably at the very least have a tolerance for that. But I would say based on the listing statistics, they have an appetite for that because we know that there’s always stuff, stuff under the stuff. That also makes life like, and our work, rich and meaningful but can be ignored in the business world related to therapy. 

 

Jenn [00:04:24] Yeah. Makes me so sad. So I might be jumping ahead a little bit, Linzy, but I feel like that’s what actually makes therapists better than like the average person. So I like depth. I’m glad you like depth. And everybody who’s listening, it sounds like you also like depth. So you’re my kind of people. 

 

Linzy [00:04:45] In the right place. So, Jenn, you teach marketing for therapists, which is an area of my own kind of like business and work that’s never been my favorite. So I love that you love it. I’m always grateful that there’s people who love marketing. 

 

Jenn [00:05:00] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:05:01] Thank you for existing. First of all, that’s my first piece. So I’m curious, like just to get us, you know, kind of started wading into the topic. Why do you think marketing can be so challenging for therapists? 

 

Jenn [00:05:16] That’s a really good question, Linzy. And I just realized, like, oh, maybe we should start a whole separate podcast where we just talk about that every single week, oh, my gosh, please, please, let’s stop. 

 

Linzy [00:05:29] As long as we get to talk about money, too, I will be there. 

 

Jenn [00:05:31] I think actually marketing and money go hand in hand. I had a call with somebody who’s joining a team at distilled earlier today and she’s like, Can you explain to me, like, what is actually a sales funnel? I was like, Yeah, it’s the process of somebody going from not knowing you to being willing to invest resources in you, right? Whether it’s time, money or I think we don’t always talk about this, but like the vulnerability of somebody coming on as client or somebody coming on as a student, whether it’s in Money Nuts and Bolts or in your fabulous new program. Or for me, in my marketing programs, it’s a vulnerable thing and you’ve got to make sure you can trust somebody. So to come back to why is it so hard for therapists? I think there’s like a lot of different threads to it, but it really comes down to people aren’t well-resourced, and I think that shows up in our marketing if we’re not getting our needs met. And really, I would say also getting some of our wants met too. Like this isn’t just about trying to survive in the world, but to enjoy living. To enjoy being alive.  

 

Linzy [00:06:42] Yeah. Like, I’m curious if you could. You could unpack that a little bit, Jenn, to use a very therapist term. When you say under-resourced, tell me more about what you mean by that. 

 

Jenn [00:06:50] Here’s a great example. In my own life, I am currently therapy-less because my therapist went to Thailand with her daughter, which I kind of love. That’s nice, but they’re gone for like three weeks, right? What am I going to do? I normally have 3 hours of therapy every week. 

 

Linzy [00:07:07] Do you? 

 

Jenn [00:07:10] I do. 

 

Linzy [00:07:10] So it’s a psychoanalysis of you? 

 

Jenn [00:07:12] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, only one hour of individual and 2 hours of group. Yeah. So I guess technically, it’s 2 hours and 50 minutes, but same difference. 

 

Linzy [00:07:23] Thank you for clarifying, because three sounded like a lot, but 2 hours and 50 minutes is very typical. 

 

Jenn [00:07:29] Yes, obviously so. So, yeah, I’m like a little rudderless without my therapist. And I was thinking as I was talking to again, another student earlier this week about how my therapist, who does like almost no marketing, just called me the fuck out when I first started to experience some success in my private practice. You and I had worked together. You taught me how to, like, keep my bookkeeping in order until I could make enough money that I could outsource that to somebody else, which is still one of my favorite business expenses. And I was doing really well. I had brought in a lot of people. I’m pretty good at marketing, and I was bringing in a lot of people who traumatized me, like not on purpose, but they weren’t. They weren’t bad clients, but they hit all of my stuff, but it was making a lot of money and I was like, Surely I’m great. Like, I have a full caseload now, right? Everything is amazing. And she looked at me. She said, You’re not well-resourced. You’re not doing great. I was like, I don’t know what the fuck that means. It’s like therapy speak. What are you talking about? Like, I have money in my savings account. And she said, Jenn, you so often reduce being well-resourced to money. And money is a symbol of being able to be resource. But it’s not the whole of it. 

 

Linzy [00:08:50] Mm hmm. 

 

Jenn [00:08:51] Can we talk more about what’s actually getting played out and where you’re actually burning yourself out? You’re stretching yourself in unhealthy ways because you’re not well-resourced in these other areas. And so I know that’s how she talked me into starting process group. I was like, Fine, okay, you think the focus group would be really helpful? And I do want to be well-resourced. I don’t know what it means. I’ll go to this group even though I think it’s going to be really hard. 

 

Linzy [00:09:15] Yes. 

 

Jenn [00:09:15] And it was really hard and also has been really transformative for me. So to stretch it out a little bit more, although I had a full caseload, right, like I had money in the bank, I have pretty good policies that things were working really well. I was not getting my relational needs met in my practice and frankly in the rest of my life. But practice was a place where it got amplified. And I also, in a lot of ways wasn’t getting my attachment needs met. Right. And so not only was I being triggered by clients. And again, truly, truly, like not the clients fault. It was, in some ways, my own marketing got in my way that I just brought in a lot of people. I was like this great. Like they’re willing to pay my fee, therefore they’re a good fit for me and they really weren’t. And so it’s being triggered there. And then it was harder to be like, okay, but I got a- I got to move things around because this isn’t a full life, right? Like that I am stretching myself logistically in terms of scheduling time. I feel kind of guilty that I’m charging so much and so let me do extra for them. Like let me keep over-delivering. Which is often marketing advice people get in general, like over-deliver, surprise them.

 

Linzy [00:10:38] Surprise and delight. Yes. Yes. 

 

Jenn [00:10:42] Which is like some patriarchal bullshit of just trying to get people to do more than what is actually on offer. 

 

Linzy [00:10:50] Right. Right. More than they even sold to that person. 

 

Jenn [00:10:53] Yes. Yes. Which this is a side show. But in another conversation with a client recently – not a therapy client, a student – and they were like, Yeah, when I first heard about you, I thought you were a scam. I was like, Seriously? Like, I- nobody in my personal life would say I’m a scam. Like, that’s not really how I come across is like, Yeah, you were offering so much. It just did not seem like be realistic. Like nobody could offer that much. And he was like, And Jenn you actually offer more now and like, I don’t- but at least I know you now and I know it’s not fake, which was comforting, but yes, coming back to well-resourced. So I was in a place where I actually had the resources that most people starting their private practice journey want. They had the fancy full caseload. I had a really nice website. I had all of these things, but it was empty because I wasn’t able to actually fill what I needed, which also meant I couldn’t show up for my clients in the ways I think that they deserve. Wasn’t doing that work. I wasn’t doing harmful work, but I wasn’t able to attend with the depth that I want to be able to. For any client who sits across from me, I see consistently this part show up in marketing, where people are so focused on getting their logistical needs met that they don’t pay attention to the attachment or the relational piece. 

 

Linzy [00:12:17] Right. Yeah. And by logistical needs, do you mean like, full caseload, like that kind of stuff? Like the things that are success on paper. Yes. Let’s say like full bank account. Good paycheck. Full caseload. You are successful. Congratulations. You have arrived. 

 

Jenn [00:12:34] Yes. And especially since COVID. I think the other thing that has happened with some of these metrics is somehow branding like so you have the clients filling up your rosters maybe or you have money in the bank account maybe, but also you have like a fancy Internet presence where people look at you and like Linzy really has it together. Have you seen her website? Oh my gosh. I just love how she did her website. Like, I’ve got to have a really good website too. I’m always seeing in these Facebook groups like, Don’t be too critical of my website, I know it’s not good enough. Like I go on their website and it’s fine. Like the copy could be stronger from a marketing perspective, but branding wise it’s fine. But there is sort of a sense of you got to keep up with the Joneses in your branding, like your logistical business stuff has to be on point. Does it make sense? 

 

Linzy [00:13:32] You were speaking to me. I was just thinking how I have a couple colleagues who I love, you know, like some of my biz besties who’ve done major website overhauls, like $20,000 projects. And like, it’s been really interesting for me to see them do that and be like, That’s really pretty and that’s really nice and I don’t want that. Like it’s just not worth it. But yeah, but it is this real appearance of success, right? And like, polish. 

 

Jenn [00:13:57] Yes. And it’s interesting because I felt this conversation a couple times with a mutual friend of ours, Tiffany, and I’m like, but I want my sales pages to be beautiful. Like, I might not be making enough money on the sales page yet, but I know it will be beautiful. I will not do it myself. And what I have learned over the past few years, is part of it isn’t about keeping up with the Joneses, although there’s a piece of that and some even wanting to trick the viewer. But because I want copy and design to be friends and I want to understand because I’m never going to be a designer, but I’m like, I want to understand how to write more for a designer. So it looks the way I want it to. Like, I want people to have a full body experience. And I don’t know that that’s often how people think about websites. It’s sort of like, Let’s make sure it looks good. And I’m like, I want to feel like a Dave Matthews concert. After you’ve had like a really long week of clients that were really hard, I want it to feel-. 

 

Linzy [00:14:59] That’s very specific. 

 

Jenn [00:15:00] Yeah, I mean, that’s my in Distilled that was the direction I gave my designers like Dave Matthews concert, but they’ve been stuck inside for a really long time. I was like, Cool, Got it. Go. I’ll send you after, like, your headshot on it, too, looks like a poster, like a like a touring musician poster. 

 

Linzy [00:15:17] My headshot. 

 

Jenn [00:15:18] Your headshot. 

 

Linzy [00:15:19] I have not seen this. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Send it to me after. It sounds glorious and artistic. Knowing you, though, Jenn, like to come back to this piece about being resourced, like I- you and I had a WhatsApp exchange before and we have been talking on WhatsApp recently and you had described kind of like some things that you’re thinking up and some cool stuff that we’re going to be doing together. And I just reply to you like my observation is like you are a creative being like to your core. So to me that actually, when we talk about being resourced and like needs, that to me actually speaks very much to like you and a need that you have to like have this artistic harmony happening in what you create. So that makes a lot of sense that that is a need that the for you or for you that is a need, where for other folks that might not be a need. 

 

Jenn [00:16:03] Yes I am with you and even bringing it back to like everybody who’s still listening, sometimes when we’re talking about what it means to be well-resourced, therapists have a way that we can see when somebody is not well-resourced and they’re like acting stuff out, then like this feels like a really telling on myself that I’ve been very obsessed with all of this Taylor Swift drama that is going on. Like there’s something in the psychic material that I’m like, There’s something about this that hooks me. You’re looking at me like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. 

 

Linzy [00:16:35] I don’t know. No, I feel like I’m very much in, like, the middle-aged mom camp of life now. 

 

Jenn [00:16:41] That is okay. 

 

Linzy [00:16:42] Isn’t she young? Taylor Swift. That’s the old person part of me responding. But I do know that you’re a Taylor Swift fan. 

 

Jenn [00:16:48] And like new Taylor Swift fan. So long story short, Taylor Swift broke up with her longtime boyfriend. My fanfiction is he broke up with her and she’s been, like, spiraling out of control ever since she broke up. And she acted as if, like, I’m fine. Like I broke up with him. Like, that was all of the PR statements. Right? And I from day one told my husband was like, I’m pretty sure Joe broke up with her. He’s like, I have no idea who you’re talking about. He was like, Jenn, I do not care. I’m like, She is posturing. She’s over it. Like she’s really trying to show the town the breakup. He’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, I wouldn’t be surprised if she cheated. She has so many songs about her cheating. Like, I think that might have been what happened in, like, the way it’s just played out. I’m like, I was right. I read it correctly and I feel like that feels like a therapist thing. And it doesn’t matter if it’s I don’t know, like your sister-in-law or your best friend’s cousin’s brother or whatever. Like, there’s still this sense of like, Ooh, I think I see. That’s what’s going on. And what I have loved about marketing is it feels to me I can look at somebody’s marketing and be like, I think I know something about you that you did not intend to tell me. What I often see in therapist marketing is how scared they are to be seen. And how scared they are that they’re not actually – not just them as people, but like us as a profession – is worth the time, energy, money invested in it. But there’s a kind of reduction of like, let’s play small because therapy’s you know, it’s not really that big of a deal. And since COVID, when therapy has become more like a trending topic, I see a lot more inflation of like, look at me like I’m an amazing therapist or therapy influencer or whoever it might be. I’m a big deal. And then they’re the people who get stuck in the middle of that, don’t want to play small, but they’re wary of feeling inflated, of being inflated, actually. Right. Like to be dangerous. Yeah. What are you thinking? 

 

Linzy [00:19:01] I was thinking about, like, the under-resourced piece and. Yeah. So can you tell me, like, bring. Bring me back around. Tell me how this connects with being under-resourced. 

 

Jenn [00:19:11] So part of what we’ve already talked about is, like, logistically, people are under-resourced. They might be desperate, need to pay their bills. We’ve also talked to them about the relational piece of just like, how do people see me that I might feel ashamed, I might feel all these other pieces, but this other part feels like the attachment is right of what happens when you haven’t had attunement, not just in family of origin, but in your marketing, in your business building, where somebody is able to support you and like attention to like where you are and say, okay, like here’s part of the way you can navigate it this way. Here’s some pitfalls to watch out for. And to do actually what you just did a few minutes ago with me is like, This is something I know about you, Jenn, you’re a deeply creative person. Of course. That makes sense. That design copy is going to be a place where you want to spend more of your energy. And let’s make- not that you’re my coach, but like, a good coach, a good consultant will be like, okay, let’s make sure that we make time, space, energy for you to invest in that, because there’s plenty of things that I don’t invest in. So I can have a beautiful sales pitch because that really matters to me, right? That’s the piece that’s often missing in marketing is people go to a place of like, I have to do all of the things in order to succeed or I’m going to do nothing because it’s all very scary to me. And there’s not guidance of, okay, let me attend to who you are. And I think this mixture of things would work for you. Have you thought about this? Here are some of the pitfalls with this. But like, here’s the ways that you can continue to navigate so it makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:20:54] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, I guess my question would be what happens or what do you see happen in therapist marketing when we haven’t had that? Like, what could that actually look like? How could somebody identify when maybe they’re under-resourced in these deeper ways we’re talking about and how that’s going to be showing up in their marketing? 

 

Jenn [00:21:11] So think of how to say this succinctly because there’s so many different ways that people can be under-resourced. Often what I see when people are under-resourced and they are under-resourced in a logistical area, right? They don’t have enough time or they don’t have enough money, which often translates to they don’t have enough clients or enough clients paying them enough that they can have a livable wage. And people tend to either pack up and quit, which happens occasionally, or it’s like one last ditch effort. I will do all of the things I have to make this work. I’m going to survive. I will have 3 Psych Today profiles. I will be on Instagram. Should I be doing a SEO, I’m doing Google My Business, how many websites should I have? I think I should have like probably 18 different blogs ready to go before I even turn my website on. And sometimes you see this like in Facebook communities, like somebody will say something that was like, look at the numbers. And like, I felt like 20% of people are like, yes, I know that feeling. Like I am also feeling that urgency. And so whenever there’s urgency in people’s marketing. A lot of like, I’ve started this, but I didn’t go through with it. I started this. I didn’t go through with that. And it doesn’t feel playful in the same way because like some people are like, Let me go try this. It didn’t really work for me. I’ll go try this other thing. But if it’s all there at once, I’m often thinking like, Ooh, I really need to get you just like two or three clients. It would be really helpful for you. I think the other thing I see a lot is this sense that people are not allowed to be themselves. I used to think of it when I was still like in residence, still in training, that I’m like, Oh, I’m so glad I don’t have to do tapes anymore because who knows what the fuck I’m doing in session? I’m not following the rules. I never give people worksheets like I’m not like evidence based in stuff because I’m not doing it. Like my perfectionist would come out.  And so it could sort of like gloss over and be sort of vague in supervision like, Oh, we did this, we did that. And then I took the diary card and then I didn’t tell my supervisor, but really we spent like 45 minutes talking about what an asshole this person’s been dating. Like, I wasn’t saying that because I didn’t think I was allowed to. And so I learned to mimic my voice, to sound like the supervisors and the nurses and clinicians around me. 

 

Linzy [00:23:44] Right. 

 

Jenn [00:23:44] Like even did this beautiful, like, Let’s unpack that. But like, that’s such therapy that just gets embedded in you. I see that so often in marketing that I’m like, I don’t know who you are. You’re a therapist. And there’s a kind of almost hiding behind the chair in their marketing. 

 

Linzy [00:24:04] Yeah, of course. 

 

Jenn [00:24:06] Which actually often says to me that you haven’t integrated what it means to be human and therapist and how those are not the same thing. And therapist is a role, not a persona. And I have found over time I feel much more comfortable with therapists who can recognize like, Hey, I’m stepping into therapist persona and here’s who I am as human. And it doesn’t mean they’re wildly different pieces, that this is a role I play, but it’s not who I am, right? That makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:24:36] Yeah, that makes sense. So I’m thinking then, you know, in terms of marketing, how do we balance that? Like you’re playing a role as a therapist. You’re not like, Hey, come hang out with me and play video games, like I do every Friday night. But you also want to be yourself, right? So you’re like, you’re marketing the role that you play for them, but you also are you unique? What does that look like? Bringing those two things together when we’re trying to attract our people? 

 

Jenn [00:25:01] So it’s twofold, probably more. I’m having many thoughts. The first is this is actually the ultimate secret. If you want to know somebody, pay attention to the content that they focus on and the content that they focus on, the person that they – especially if they’ve niched down – is who they are or who there’s some part of them that’s still trying to heal from their relationship. You’re like, our psyche just drives us either to parcels or just people that we’re trying to work something out with. So there’s that piece. But I think sometimes when people hear, okay, I gotta market, it either becomes I have to make it all about me or I have to be very, very generic so nobody feels excluded and that’s just not effective marketing. I was telling you before we got on, I was like, Oh, I like read your new sales page, which is very long. I did not read all of it, but I read a lot of it and I was like, I think this might be me. Linzy, it’s not me. I just hired an associate sort of casually this morning. I don’t have a group practice. 

 

Linzy [00:26:07] And well, that’s not true. Just to be clear, you are a brand new group practice owner as of 5 hours ago. 

 

Jenn [00:26:12] Yes, that’s true. 5 hours. I’ve been a group practice owner and I’m not like if I read the sales page yesterday, I would not be the ICA. I would not be the niche. Right. And as I read it, I could feel seen by you because you were seeing somebody with a lot of depth. You weren’t purposely self-disclosing. There wasn’t a lot of focus on you. I think there’s like a small About You section yeah that like maybe 200 words I don’t know like not a lot. 

 

Linzy [00:26:45] Yeah I was going to say maybe it’s like 7% of the page. 5%. 

 

Jenn [00:26:49] Very small. But I could still feel you. And part of this is also I know you, but I could feel you as I read down the page as you focused on the other. Mm. And that is the gift that therapists have that marketers in general like and copywriters in general really have to work to home. Is we know what it’s like to see another person. And what scares us I think is often in seeing the other we are also seen. And it’s not necessarily about let me show you who I am. But it is showing up in being able to say, I see that in you because I have experience. That’s it. And when we’re talking about advertising therapy, often we’re talking about I have experience of what it means to be deeply anxious or very depressed or marked by trauma, marked by grief. All of these pieces, I know what it’s like to be human and in some ways and focusing your attention on the other. In your copywriting, in your marketing reveals something of you. I felt a little esoteric. Did it make sense to you know. 

 

Linzy [00:28:01] It did make sense, you know, because I’m thinking too, I’m thinking a little bit too of like the distinction between that and a- thank you, by the way, for speaking kindly of my copy. You know, of that distinction of like, yes. Through really being able to speak to the person that you’re attracting, you’re showing- I think you’re also showing basically your approach and your language and how you hold these things. Right. Like we’re showing, though, our ways of holding and thinking about and being with the issues, working out by how we talk about them. Right. Because, you know, we could call in someone who has anxiety and we could talk about it literally a thousand different ways. Yes. And that’s going to show our relationship to it, our vibe. But I’m thinking about that, and I’m distinguishing that in my mind from therapists. I’m thinking of one therapist I worked with myself years ago as a client whose About Me page felt like this was about him. I don’t know how to explain the difference, but it’s like that this was about him and his journey and his healing, and I got to be part of that as a client rather than feeling like it was going to be about me as a client. And that was ultimately, ultimately, my client experience of him was that he was very into doing what he was doing and being himself. There’s, you know, we could have a four hour conversation about that, I’m sure. But the distinction between that and someone who is like well-resourced and able to like, hold and show who they are while still being appropriately in their role, it feels like to me there is- those are different things. 

 

Jenn [00:29:25] Yeah. And I also just want to highlight you just did this thing that I said we’re able to do. That you read in his marketing who he was. And he, when he wrote that, probably was not thinking, oh, my gosh, my clients are going to be able to pick up some shadow piece of me. And you did. I was talking to my clinical consultant a couple weeks ago, I- we talk about it not infrequently because, like, I really think becoming a parent has just made me better before having a kid. Being a therapist, like doing all this work on myself will make me a better parent. I don’t know is true or not true, and I can very clearly feel a correlation to being with somebody very, very small and watching them like they can figure out the world. That sort of like take it in and marinate on it and figure it out has made me more attuned to how that shows up with all people that I sit with. And one of the things that’s really magical about parenting, at least in my experience so far, is I get to be present with her and I’m there and there are parts of me that I hold back. There’s parts that it would not be helpful for her if I explained to her the fine nuance between frustration and volcanic rage when she’s having a meltdown. It’s just not helpful for her. Maybe someday she might have language for that. And in our marketing, it’s not that we are dumbing anything down, but there are parts of us that we hold back because that’s not what clients need, right? And if we’ve had a healing journey like this person who actually now I’m thinking about is also like really working hard to prove to everybody that he had a healing journey where maybe he hadn’t had a healing journey as much to say. 

 

Linzy [00:31:17] I’m gonna say he was midway. 

 

Jenn [00:31:18] Okay, I like the answer to that posturing thing that we all deal in different ways. If I’m not concerned with having to prove to you that I’m really good or I’m this or that, and I can just be like, Yeah, I’m good, and let me show you how I’m good, Yeah, I’m going to see you so much that you’re going to end up reading the sales page. Like, this is the person I have to work with. Right. And ideally, that’s all good marketing. It’s not therapy that it is about being seen. And in being seen, you do. People do see you. 

 

Linzy [00:31:55] Yes. Which is so true. And like, just being in the middle of a launch right now myself, this is all very, very at the surface for me, very much like what’s occupying my time and something we chatted about a little bit before we start recording is Money Skills for Good Practice Owners, which at the time that I’m recording this is the doors open for it right now. First time offer, so I’ve got the sales page and the funnel is from sales page to a call with me, right? So it’s like a big jump, right, for someone to make. But what also tells me that I did a good job with the copy is everybody that I talk to I fucking love. They’re amazing. They’re amazing. Including one person who literally found me through an Instagram or Facebook ad, registered for a call with me at 9 p.m. at night her time for 6 a.m. the next morning her time, we got on a call immediately. We’re like, Oh my God, you grew up there. I went to school there. Oh my God. She was like, Oh, I’ve got this cottage on this lake, I was like, I grew up on a resort on that lake at this cottage. She was like, you know, it was just like, brought together by the Facebook algorithm and the universe, because I was able to, like, call in my people through that copy. And like, she already was like exactly who I meant to support, even though we- that was literally her first exposure and she ended up joining the course. And so it’s like, yeah, that you do- you can really call in those folks I think when you strike that balance. So for folks listening then this is not actually a podcast about how great my sales pitch is. But I do appreciate your feedback because I worked on it for a long time in terms of like getting resourced. If people are listening and they’re like, Yeah, I’m probably under-resourced, I’m doing all the things and I feel like I’m getting none. The results are I’m calling in people or have a caseload full of people who are triggering me. So I’m making a lot of money, but every night I die a small death and start again. What can they do? Like, how do you become resourced or like, how do you bring this into your marketing? 

 

Jenn [00:33:38] So two things. My first piece and I, it’s almost like I want to answer two questions at once. One thing which. 

 

Linzy [00:33:45] Probably cuz I asked you two questions at once. Was there another one there too? 

 

Jenn [00:33:49] Oh, yeah, I’m making up questions. The first is I want to highlight because you’re using beautiful marketing jargon, but marketing jargon that non-trained clinicians came up with Call in your people. You’re doing that at some of your top-of-funnel content, like whether it’s ads or reels or whatever it might be doing your ad tuning to people. That’s why I read your sales page and I was like, Oh, I want to work with Linzy for six months. I don’t have a group practice idea of a group practice. I work on that with my individual coach. Like, I got to like reframe how I see myself that you were tuning to where people are at. It is like a fine distinction, but I think it’s important because often people settle for something less than attunement because they don’t know that there are other options. And when it really comes down to, okay, you’re under-resourced, what do you need? You need to be attuned to. And that’s not something you typically can just do on your own. It’d be very cool if we could do it yourself attunement just for yourself and all the inner child parenting, self-parenting work like work in isolation. But until you have an experience of somebody else who can attune to you that way, you’re pretty likely going to repeat old patterns, right? And so when we’re talking specifically about full caseloads, whether you have one or you have one that isn’t actually full, it just looks full, most of what has been modeled for people is burning themselves out and not having good boundaries. And not like in a everybody’s listening has bad boundaries. But like it wasn’t modeled, there weren’t guardrails for how do you do this in a way that feels really good. And so that is kind of the secret for everything I do and why I like marketing so much is can we move from, I don’t know, just like surface level sympathy to deep empathetic attunement that the person who is selling is going to show up as the grounded resource and say, Here’s where I see you are at and here’s the potential of what could be, here’s a different thing, right? Because your sales pitch could have said and probably still done pretty well metrics-wise, but it could have said, I’m just going to teach you how to manage your finances. It’s really hard to be a good practice owner. I’m really good at it. I teach you about it. You just come work with me. But that’s not what your sales pitch is. And in fact, is probably so long, because it’s really complicated to be a group practice owner. And there’s a lot of people that you’re holding and like, there’s a lot of people which simple and relational and attachment things that come up and you needed space to be able to lay that out for them, that you were matching them where they are. 

 

Linzy [00:36:45] Yes. 

 

Jenn [00:36:46] And so that’s not a super strategic like go Google kind of get attunement. I should probably write an article on SEO-optimizing websites like how to get a team in. But that’s the answer to this. And there’s a variety of ways that people can get it. I think everybody should be in therapy. My clients don’t go to me like, I know you think everybody should be in therapy and like, Yeah, I think everybody should be in therapy. But if you don’t have a therapist, I think that is the best place to start. And not just any old therapist, but somebody who can really hold you as you go through the transformation of being an entrepreneur. After that, I think it’s about investing in people that you can feel seen by in their marketing. And then it’s about having a community that feels good. Who gets it? Who- I said this to somebody recently as trying to explain to my therapist how my email list works, because I got some email responses for people who are really triggered by some of the material. Their stuff I think more than mine, but I was like, Yeah, this is how it works. And she was like, I don’t see your and your emailing them all individually is like, No, that’s not exactly how it works. Which I love her and she’s attuned to me in so many ways, but she does not understand sometimes. Whereas I could go to my business coach and be like, Oh my gosh, this is what’s going on. The email list is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she gets it because she’s had some lived experience with that. And I think particularly for people who are building up caseloads, you need people who are doing it the way you want to do it or close approximation. Right. Because you don’t want to be like, I’m really struggling to build up a private pay. And everybody’s like, well, just take insurance. Have you heard about Alma? Like, you should take Alma, but that’s not actually a solution. That’s them wanting you to do it more the way they do it. 

 

Linzy [00:38:43] Right. Yeah. So having our own. Yeah. Being attuned to, allows us to tune to others. 

 

Jenn [00:38:52] Yes. You’re also a parent. I’m pretty sure that’s how parenting ultimately works. If we were attuned to our kids and our kids would be able to attend to others at some point.  

 

Linzy [00:39:02] True story. That’s the hope, at least, right, once those brains get a little bigger. 

 

Jenn [00:39:07] Gentle parenting. Tik tok is like, okay, just hang in there, everybody. 

 

Linzy [00:39:12] I used to be on gentle parenting tik tok when I was on Tik tok for sure. Awesome. Thank you, Jenn. And for folks who want more from you, tell us about what you’ve got. 

 

Jenn [00:39:23] I have so much. I’m actually. I made myself notes, so I remember to say all of the things that I have. Okay. So, I mean, I’m also where I talk fairly fast, so try to slow myself down. Now, if you’re listening, I want to say like I’m recognizing I did not give you, I don’t know, like the Post-it note of like three concrete steps, like, go do these things and your life will magically be transformed. And I do actually have three magical Post-it do these three things and you’ll have your life transformed. But I’m not going to give it to you for free. You have to trade your email address to me. So I have this great workshop. If you are a therapist who knows that you want to have more, whether it’s people on your schedule, money in the bank, or just joy in life, I really want to invite you to come watch Full Caseload Unlocked. I was talking to somebody the other day and they’re like this workshop is bananas. Like, there’s so much information in it, so it’s really hard to summarize what exactly happens. It’s like, well, it is that you give them the three secrets of full caseload. Therapists know how to have a life that feels good, to market with ease and efficiency I was like yeah, but it has a little business in this. You can’t put that all in a call to action. Just one thing. So I do guide you through the three secrets that literally my students, my marketing students know, colleagues of mine know, I know, that help you move from a business that has some emptiness or some overfilled notes to a life that feels really good. While you’re still funding your retirement, you’re still doing all the things that Linzy teaches you how to do in Money Nuts and Bolts, and you’re not having to jam-pack yourself to get there. The other thing I sweet talk to Linzy over WhatsApp into doing this fun new thing that I’m going to start. I don’t know totally decided on the name I’m playing with behind the marketer is kind of fun because we talked about your marketing today. 

 

Linzy [00:41:31] We did. We did. Yeah. 

 

Jenn [00:41:33] And so it’s a private podcast for only generally for my students, but because I like you so much, Linzy, and it sounds like your listeners also like me. 

 

Linzy [00:41:44] Mm hmm. Evidence shows. 

 

Jenn [00:41:46] So if you follow the link thinkersguide.com/Linzy. And that’s Linzy with a Z. You will get a chance to not only watch Full Caseload Unlocked, but I’m also going to put you in the private podcast, not the listener. Linzy’s in the private podcast, but everybody else will get a chance to listen to the private podcast with you and some of my other favorite marketing friends in the private practice space. And actually, I know a lot of people. So even if you don’t watch the workshop, like you should come because I’m going to ask Linzy all the personal questions you wish you could ask. But you guys are too polite to do so. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:42:24] Well, I look forward to that, Jenn. Thank you. 

 

Jenn [00:42:26] Thank you. 

 

Linzy [00:42:28] Thank you so much for joining us today. Jenn. It was lovely to have you back. 

 

Jenn [00:42:31] Thanks. 

 

Linzy [00:42:46] In my conversation with Jenn. You know, something that sticks out for me is just that importance of really recognizing our own depth as people as people who are also therapists. As she mentioned, there’s the role of therapist, but then there’s also who we are as individuals and all the things we’re bringing to the table and the importance of letting ourselves be those humans and making sure we’re taking care of all parts of ourselves through therapy and having great supports and really, I think giving ourselves the resourcing and support and attention and nurturing that we need while we’re doing that work for other people. As therapists, it’s so easy to hide in that therapist role and like, this is who we are and put so much of our energy there throughout the week that it’s easy to be neglecting ourselves and all of these complex and multilayered parts and facets of us that not only are important and need attention, but also by attending to them, we become happier people. Like Jenn said, you know, we can bring joy into our life, but it also makes us better therapists. So if that’s a motivator, if it’s hard to think about doing work for yourself and the richness of your own life, this work also helps us be better therapists when we do get the resources that we need. So I’m just so, so appreciative of Jenn for coming onto the podcast today. And yes, I do go to the show notes for that link to the conversation, that private conversation that you can get to through the links that Jen and I will be having around marketing, where, as she said, she’s going to ask me a whole bunch of questions. Who knows what they’ll be? I’m excited. So check out that link to see that conversation with Jenn and I about marketing as therapists. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts and, like 145 users on Apple Podcasts, you are welcome to leave a review. It’s really helpful. Allows other therapists and health practitioners to find us and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Maegan [00:00:03] It’s an act of revolution in many ways to be a woman, to be a therapist, to be a healer who says, “You know what? I’m going to push against what, honestly, the patriarchy has taught me – it means to be, quote, professional. And instead, I’m going to show up as who I am, who I genuinely, honestly am.”

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?” I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s episode is with Maegan Megginson. If you have listened to this podcast in the past, or if you are a Money Skills for Therapists student, you’re probably going to know that Maegan Megginson is one of my business besties. We have been friends in business for six years now and I’m really excited to have her back on the podcast today. Maegan is a licensed therapist. She’s a seven-figure entrepreneur, and she’s also a business coach who helps therapists take their careers to the next level. She’s the founder of the Rest & Success Code, which is a charity fundraising event that inspires therapists to become deeply rested and wildly successful. And today, Maegan and I get into the value, both the emotional value and financial value, of creating a personal brand. This is really deeply what Maegan teaches, which is how to create a brand that really reflects you and who you are, how to step out of that blank slate conditioning that we get, you know, that we learn as therapists to be like tucked away and make sure that we don’t personally disclose and all of these things that can make it very difficult if we decide we want to expand and do things differently. So Maegan and I dig into that. We talk about what it can look like, with some examples of a personal brand, an expanded offer can look like. And then we talk to you about the financial value of creating a personal brand or the financial potential, I should say, but also other ways that a personal brand can pay you besides money. It’s always so lovely to be able to talk with Maegan, period, and especially to have her on the podcast. Here is my conversation with Maegan, Maegan said. 

 

Linzy [00:02:43] So, Maegan, welcome back to the podcast. 

 

Maegan [00:02:46] Linzy, thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:02:48] It is always a pleasure. It’s always a pleasure. 

 

Maegan [00:02:50] Always a pleasure. 

 

Linzy [00:02:51] And I’m excited to have you today because I think that since you were on the podcast last – well I know this because we speak all the time, because we are biz besties – I think you evolved a lot, I think in turn and like finessed like in the work that you’re doing and the way that you’re messaging and I think really honing in on like your specific offer that you have for us therapists. And I’m really excited to get into those things today. Would you agree with that? Is that accurate, do you feel like? I think you were last here, like maybe two years ago or. 

 

Maegan [00:03:20] Yeah, it’s it’s been a hot minute. I mean, things change fast. I mean, and we are growing and evolving. Yeah, I would say that, like, my evolution continues in who I am and, and the work that I want to do in the world. And yeah, I’m really excited to talk with you about that today. 

 

Linzy [00:03:38] Yes, yes. Yeah. I think you really have a, I mean we’re going to talk about some personal brand stuff today, to me, you really have like an ever a real, like living, breathing brand because the work that you do is so, like, tied to like what you’re able to offer with your own growth as you grow. I feel like you’re very quickly able to turn and like help other people up that level right behind you. 

 

Maegan [00:03:58] And I mean, it is we’re going to talk about this, but it is one of my favourite things about having a personal brand is that it does pivot and grow with you. And I think if you’re the kind of person who is really invested in personal growth and is always looking for like, looking in how to move closer to what you’re passionate about or what you want to do with your work on this planet. Having a personal brand is a beautiful vehicle that helps you do that pretty seamlessly. 

 

Linzy [00:04:23] Right! So something that you and I have talked about a lot in our time together as friends going through evolutions is how as therapist, you have to kind of have to like tuck yourself back, right? This like blank slate persona that we need to have, you know, in clinical work or that we’ve been taught to have in clinical work. We don’t really share a lot of ourselves. We try to be inoffensive, neutral. And I think for so many of us that become so second nature and like so part of how we experience ourselves professionally. So as therapists are like starting to think about doing the kind of work that that you’ve done and step more into like being themselves and putting themselves out there, how do they shed that kind of blank slate costume that we’ve all been taught to wear for so many years? 

 

Maegan [00:05:09] Yeah, you know, and I think it’s important to name that we receive this message both explicitly and implicitly as therapists, that many people are trained in graduate school programs that literally say “You need to be a blank slate”, you’re not allowed to share who you are. It is unethical to self-disclose. It is unethical to, quote, “Make the work about you”. It’s selfish to want to share your personality and weave yourself into the work that you’re doing. These messages are, they’re oppressive. They are deeply internalized. And for many of us, they actually started way before graduate school. Many, many therapists received very similar messages from their own families. You know, “Don’t be too smart, don’t be too successful, don’t be too loud, don’t be too shiny”. You know, just be a little less of everything that you are so that you fit in better to, you know, this family system of which you are a member by default. 

 

Linzy [00:06:04] Right. 

 

Maegan [00:06:05] So we come about this blank slate conditioning naturally, and we have years and years of conditioning that tell us it’s not okay to be who we are. And many therapists get to the point in their practices and in their lives where they just can’t live that way anymore. And this was certainly something that I experienced of, I just like I can feel myself is begging to come out, and I want to be more self-expressed. I want to be more authentic and honest. And I have to do that in my life. You know, I have to do it in my life personally. And as I do it more in my life, I then have to do it more in my practice and in my business. So it’s a big question how do I start to become more self-expressed, more authentically, who I am in my private practice? And I think the first way that we start to do that is to weave elements of our personality into our business, into our branding and into our work with clients. 

 

Linzy [00:06:59] Mmm right. And can you give some examples of what that could look like? 

 

Maegan [00:07:03] Yeah, I can give some examples and I’m going to give your listeners a whole guide about it at the end of this conversation. So listeners are going to be well supported in this process. The first place I like to start is like, let’s just think about adjectives that describe who you are. This is, this is where I begin with folks in my coaching program Next Level Therapist is, you know, what are some adjectives you would use to describe yourself? And people will say things like, you know, funny, I’m funny or I’m sensitive or I’m chill or I, you know, fill in the blank. I’m charismatic, you know, I’m adventurous, I’m eccentric. Whatever the adjectives that you might use to describe who you are. And then we say, okay, let’s take a look at your business as it is right now. Let’s take a look at your website. Let’s take a look at your copyrighting. Let’s take a look at your intake paperwork. Let’s take a look at, you know, how you engage with clients. And I want to know, are those adjectives present in your business? Are they present in the way that you’re working with clients? And let’s just examine that and let’s look at how can we weave more of the way you want to show up in the world into what you’re actually doing. And just starting with some exploration around your adjectives can be a really evocative and telling process. 

 

Linzy [00:08:19] Hmm. Yeah, that is really interesting because something that I think about is even if I think about like, forms, usually it’s like we have a form that we got from somebody else and we feel like, okay, this is how the form has to be because this is right. And often it has very kind of like dry language or like aspirationally legal language that isn’t really but like this very kind of like stuffy nature of some of those kinds of things. And yeah, I am thinking about like what your client’s experiences would be like if the forms actually reflected your vibe rather than feeling like, Oh, this is like a generic form that could be at a hospital or could be at a vet clinic. But instead I’m at, you know, a therapist’s office, right? 

 

Maegan [00:08:57] It’s such a small place to make a tweak, but it does have a powerful impact on how the client is experiencing you as the provider. And it’s also going to call in more of the right clients, right? Because if you are, if let’s say you’re sassy, you know, like if sassy is one of your adjectives and your website, home page is super sassy, very conversational, it sounds like the way you would talk to your friends and family, you know, but in a professional setting. And then a client looks at your paperwork and your paperwork while being clear and covering, you know, all of the bases that it needs to cover also has that element of sassiness about it. The client’s either going to know in that moment, you are not the person for me. No, thank you. Or holy shit, I want to hang out with you like, okay. You know, like, I like I’m so excited to talk to you. I like you are going to be the person for me. So in addition to making you feel better as the practitioner that you actually get to be who you are and you get to show up as yourself. You have the secondary gain of pulling in the people who want to hang out with the real you and repelling the people who are not going to like who you are. And those aren’t our dream clients. So those are not people that you need to be working with anyways. So I think it’s just a win-win in every direction. 

 

Linzy [00:10:14] I, yeah, I agree. And it’s interesting, like it’s reminding me of something. Yesterday I was having a conversation with someone who wants to join the course and that had run out of time to join the course and came back in and said like, “Oh, I didn’t realize there was a deadline. Like, Can I join today?” And so I replied to her and said, “Yeah, absolutely, I’d love to help you in”. And I shared a, you know, a sales pitch that has a deadline on it. And I shared with her, “We use deadlines in our business because we’ve learned that the therapist that we serve will avoid money if they can until approximately the end of time”. And that’s what I wrote in the email and I thought it was very funny and clever. I was obviously having a bit of a sassy day, but I did notice afterwards there was like this policing voice that came into me like and was like “You don’t know this person yet, like, that can be very off-putting to her, that could be offensive to her”. Like, you could have struck the wrong tone. But then I had a counter thought of like, “Well, yeah, but if she doesn’t like my little jokes, she’s probably not going to like working with me”. 

 

Maegan [00:11:06] Exactly. 

 

Linzy [00:11:07] Because I use humour and the work that I do, right? But like I did notice this, like back and forth that happened in me almost immediately of like doubting that infusion of like more of my kind of like lighter personality right away. And then also reminding myself, like, yeah, she doesn’t like that little joke. She’s probably not going to like the hundred other little jokes that I like to tell when I’m doing coaching calls to keep things light. 

 

Maegan [00:11:28] Such a good example. And it’s so true. It’s an act of revolution in many ways. To be a woman, to be a therapist, to be a healer who says, “You know what, I’m going to push against what, honestly, the patriarchy has taught me it means to be, quote, ‘professional’. And instead, I’m going to show up as who I am, who I genuinely, honestly am”. And it is really hard. And what you’re describing is just a great example of that internalized conditioning. It just bubbles. It automatically bubbles right up to the surface. 

 

Linzy [00:12:00] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:12:00] I’m like, “Oh, was that appropriate? Are you going to upset her?” Like we all walk around with these little critics that are really concerned about upsetting people and really concerned about stepping out of line? And when my clients are really struggling with that, I will often say like, “The only thing that you shouldn’t do is be an asshole”. Really. Like, don’t be an asshole, you know? And if you are not being an asshole, then there’s not many things you can do wrong. You know it’s, be yourself if you’re being kind, if you’re leading with love always and you’re being yourself and someone doesn’t like the way that you presented, great! What a beautiful opportunity for the two of you to decide that you were not the right fit to work together. 

 

Linzy [00:12:41] Right. 

 

Maegan [00:12:41] But it is like, every day, every moment that you are taking off the blank slate costume. It is a reconditioning process and we as therapists know how hard that is. So you have to be really gentle with yourself to be kind, and you need to be in a community of therapists who are doing that work as well. Because if you’re trying to do this in isolation and you have nobody to talk to you when you have one of those challenging days or you’re doubting yourself, you’re going to go right back into the tiny little box that you’ve been stuffed into for so long. Like being connected to community as you are coming out as your true self is a really important part of this process. 

 

Linzy [00:13:19] Mm hmm. Yeah. And that makes all the sense in the world to me. And I think that, you know, if I think about our business relationship, I feel like that’s part of the work that we’ve helped each other do over the last six years or whatever that we’ve been friends,  it’s like when you are forging this new path and you’re sticking your neck out and you’re, yeah, being yourself and experimenting with how to do that, it is hard. And it’s very tempting to be like, nevermind, I was joking. I’m going to go back and like, be small and little and good again where like, nobody can criticize me or yeah, it’s, I mean small feels safe. And so it makes total sense that having that community around us to help us take risks and also I think like absorb wins when it goes well, right? Process when it doesn’t go well would be essential. 

 

[00:14:04] Yeah. Totally agree. 

 

Linzy [00:14:05] So therapists then, who are listening, what makes it beneficial for them or like why do therapists especially, are they in the position to be able to step out and build these personal brands? Because I know this is kind of the center of the work that you do, right? Is that that you know, that therapists like we are uniquely positioned. So tell me more about that. 

 

Maegan [00:14:26] Okay. I’m so excited because this is like I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about this sometimes and I’m just like, filled with joy and excitement, you know, like, I’m so glad that I have moved past the era of my life where I wake up in the middle of the night like stressed with and wracked with fear and anxiety. 

 

[00:14:42] So much worse,. 

 

[00:14:42] Yeah, it’s so much worse. This is way better. Ten out of ten recommend waking up feeling just like so excited to talk about a thing. So first, maybe let’s define what a personal brand is because it is kind of ambiguous a little, it’s a little difficult to understand. In its simplest form, a personal brand is a business that’s based on you, your personality, your values, and most importantly, your subject matter expertise or your specialty area. So when I say you should have a personal brand, I’m not saying you should be an influencer on Instagram, right? Influencers, they do have personal brands that, that is true, but they don’t have subject matter expertise, right? They really are just known for their personality and their values and that’s it. What makes this different, what you and I are talking about is that we get to lead with who we are and we get to back that up with our subject matter expertise. And there are few people on the planet who are as specialized, as intelligent and as human, as psychotherapists, like we have spent years getting specialized training and whatever it is that we do, we have spent hours and tens of thousands of dollars getting supervised by people who have been doing this work for longer than we have. We are experts and yet therapists, we are some of the people who are the quickest to dismiss our expertise, to discount ourselves. You know, we are the, we stay in little tiny private practice offices with the doors closed, you know, where we maybe talk to 20 people a week and that’s it. No one else gets into our mind. No one else gets to know what we know or hear what we have to say. And I just feel like it’s such a travesty because, like if more therapists were out there in the spotlight sharing what they know and what they believe and how they help people heal and transform their lives, I genuinely think the whole world would be a much better place than it is right now. So anyways, yes. 

 

Linzy [00:16:38] Yeah. It makes me think about the more you know, the more you know, you don’t know rightly kind of that like Dunning-Kruger effect.  I think about all the coaches out there who know this much and have confidence just like through the roof and take up so much space like teaching this like, you know, tiny area that they figured out with full confidence, not understanding all of the adjacent areas that they know nothing about that, you know, can be really important. And then I think about therapists who have hundreds of hours of training and know so deeply what they know and what they don’t know and what they specialize in and what they don’t, and like the complexities of what they do. And yet they doubt themselves and think that they should only be like making a small impact when these folks who know way less than you think that they deserve to be making a huge impact. 

 

Maegan [00:17:24] And again, we have to ask ourselves, why is that the case? Well, it’s the case because the way we’re trained as therapists, you know that we are trained in a paradigm in graduate school programs, in a culture of psychotherapy that has deep roots in white supremacy and patriarchy and these systems that have profited overtime on keeping people like us small and quiet. And so that’s why I come back to like this is an act of revolution to say no more. I’m not going to be small. I’m not going to be quiet. I’m actually I’m going to step out. I’m going to open the door of my private practice office. I’m going to, like, step into the street. I’m going to look both ways first, of course, and I’m going to say, “Folks, I have something to say”. You know, I know something that will make your lives better. I believe something so deeply that I want more people to have access to this work that I, and therapists say this all the time right there, like I want to expand my impact, you know? I don’t want only to be limited to the work that I’m doing in the therapy room, which is great. It’s great to say, but now we need to take that to the next level. So if that’s how you feel, if you feel called to expand your impact beyond the therapy room, then do it. You know, it’s then do it. And I think the easiest way to do that in the most joyful and creative way to do that is by creating a personal brand. And eventually, when the time is right, creating a business separate from your private practice where you can start showing up in a different way and selling things to your people, to your community in a different way as well. 

 

Linzy [00:19:00] Right. And, you know, for folks listening, you know, I think that we’ve been taught many roads to that right to expand an impact like some people will say, like you need to make a course based off of what you’re doing in your practice or you need to speak like you need to do this. Tell me, you know, Maegan, your perspective, why is a personal brand the thing to do first rather than jumping into one of those other things? 

 

Maegan [00:19:26] Yeah. When you jump into another thing before laying the foundation for your business, inevitably you are not going to be very successful, right? And I see this all the time. People invest big money in programs that say… Okay, okay, let’s use the online course as an example. There’s a therapist in private practice and they’re like, I really want to make a course. So they pay 3000, $4,000 to take a course to learn how to make a course. And then they make a course and then nobody buys the course. And then they say, “Oh, I just wasted all of that money. I’m not meant to be successful. This isn’t going to work for me”. But the problem is an analogy I often use is, you hired the contractor before you got the blueprints from the architect. 

 

Linzy [00:20:12] Hmm. Right. 

 

Maegan [00:20:14] Like you know, you jumped in and you made a thing. But there’s actually a lot that goes into setting a business up for success before you sell something. And I think that’s where the personal branding piece is really important. You know, slow down. First, let’s get really clear on what parts of you do you want to weave into your business? What is it that you really want to say? How do you want this business to serve you? This is what we do in Next Level Therapist is we first start with the personal exploration, then we turn our attention to who, who are we here to serve? Who are we here to serve? What do we want to say to them? How are we going to serve them? And then let’s put the infrastructure in place to support our ability to sell things. Let’s make sure we have a marketing plan. Let’s make sure we have an email list. Let’s learn what it means to build an audience. Let’s learn how to sell with integrity. And when we do all of these things upfront and then we go to make the course, bam! You’re going to be so much more successful because you have the infrastructure to support you in doing the thing, selling the thing that you want to do that you want to sell. And the personal brand infrastructure also allows you to pivot. That’s what we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation, that if you can do a course and then maybe you’re like, “That was boring”, I want to do a group program. And then you do that and you’re like, “That was too stressful”, I just want to do a retreat and then you can do a retreat. And I think the ability to play and to experiment with different ways of offering things to your people is a really important element in creating a business beyond private practice. 

 

Linzy [00:21:50] Right? Because with the personal brand, if I understand properly or correctly, people learn to like and trust you, they like you and what you do. So if you’re doing a course and they like and trust you and the content is relevant to them, they’re going to jump in and take the course. But then if you say, I’m going to do this retreat instead, they’re gonna be like, “Oh my God, I would love to have time with … Claire” and they’re going to interest do the retreat because they have a personal connection to you. 

 

Maegan [00:22:13] Yeah, that’s right. You are always leading with your personality and your values. I say there are three things that you need for a profitable personal brand. You need courageous authenticity, right? You have to be courageously yourself. You have to be honest. That doesn’t mean you have to show people everything about you or your life, but the parts of you that you do show need to be courageously authentic. People are drawn to authenticity. Two, we need genuine relationships, right? Successful personal brands are built on relationships, genuine relationships. My friendship with you, Linzy, is genuine. My relationship with the people in my audience, on my email list, those are genuine relationships. I am really talking and connecting with those people in real ways. And three, we need to be compelling storytellers, right? To have a successful personal brand, you do have to be able to tell stories. And this is one of the most fundamental elements of being human is being able to tell a story. Our brains are hardwired to receive story, to tell story. So when you’re being yourself, when you are open to genuine relationships and when you are telling stories in your business in a way that brings people in and makes them curious about you and what you do, then what you just described, it happens. You know that people start to trust you. People are interested in what you have to say and they’re willing to kind of follow you around as you experiment with different offerings. And just because you know, you’re the, you’re the money person, I will also say that, like, this is the path that leads to a scalable income. 

 

Linzy [00:23:44] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:23:45] For you as a therapist, right? When you get out of the therapy room and you start experimenting with offers that aren’t just an hour of your time with one person at a time, you can begin to see the pathway to increasing your income and your revenue in a way that you’ll never be able to see with a traditional private practice business model. 

 

Linzy [00:24:05] Yes. Yeah. And, you know, just to help folks understand, like, would there be any kind of an examples or numbers that you could share to help them wrap around what’s possible with a personal brand? 

 

Maegan [00:24:15] Sure. Well, let’s brainstorm this together. I mean, let’s say maybe we can start with the online course example. 

 

Linzy [00:24:20] Sure. 

 

Maegan [00:24:21] Okay. So let’s say. 

 

Linzy [00:24:22] We’ll my calculator? I’ll get my calculator. 

 

Maegan [00:24:23] Yeah, maybe get your calculator. Because, you know, Linzy knows me in numbers we’re …. we’re not the closest friends. 

 

Linzy [00:24:29] You’re acquaintances. 

 

Maegan [00:24:31] We’re acquaintances. I have mad respect for numbers, but we don’t get each other, you know? 

 

Linzy [00:24:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:24:36] Okay, so let’s say you create an online course. Now you create an online course after you do all of those other things that I mentioned, you know, building the infrastructure, creating an audience so that there are people who want to buy an online course from you. So I don’t know, Linzy, let’s say that someone specializes in anxiety and they create an online course about managing your anxiety and work meetings. So you’re getting anxiety at work meetings. You’re not able to speak up for yourself and you want to overcome that. So you create a kind of self-study course that guides people through, let’s say, a 4 to 5 step process for managing anxiety and speaking up at work. You package that up and I don’t know, what do you think someone would sell for Linzy? 

 

Linzy [00:25:16] MM Four or five lessons, anxiety work and on-target audience. We’re talking about like really big corporate people or?

 

Maegan [00:25:25] Let’s say like middle managers. 

 

Linzy [00:25:27] Sure. Middle managers. Okay. I would say that’s at least 500 bucks. I would say if I’m a middle manager and like it’s impacting my work performance. Yeah, it easily would be that much.  

 

Maegan [00:25:39] And let’s say that includes like a little bit of one on one support too, you know? So there’s like a group coaching call or something like that. So great. So we have this course anxiety management for middle managers looks like that needs some copy work. 

 

Linzy [00:25:51] So inspiring. 

 

Maegan [00:25:52] Yeah. Okay. So $500. So let’s say, I don’t know, let’s say you sell 20. What’s that? 

 

Linzy [00:25:57] $10,000. 

 

Maegan [00:25:58] $10,000. So and let’s say you how many group coaching calls do you show up for? Let’s say five. 

 

Linzy [00:26:05] Mm hmm. 

 

Maegan [00:26:06] Okay, so there’s five group coaching calls. And so really, this is an online course that became a group program. And in the course of this brainstorming an online course became a hybrid. 

 

Linzy [00:26:15] A hybrid, yeah, this how it works.

 

Maegan [00:26:17] Yep. That’s that works Great. So you just made ten grand. You showed up live for 5 hours and 20 people get a pretty huge transformation, right? And now it’s, it’s not fair. I don’t want to be someone who’s like, “You got paid ten grand for 5 hours of work” because a lot of work when into creating that course, right? A lot of hours went into making it. A lot of hours, you know, you probably had to pay people to help you with the tech. But what you now have is something you can rinse and repeat. So you made $10,000 the first time that you did it. Well, the next time that you do it, maybe you increase the price to $700 and instead of 20 people, you do 40 people and you actually don’t have to redo any of the work you did the first time because it’s all already created. So the only thing you do the next time is show up for those five coaching calls. So I don’t know, Let’s and let’s let’s say 30 people. 30 people, $700 each. What’s that one’s?

 

Linzy [00:27:10] $21,000. 

 

Maegan [00:27:11] Okay, great. So the second time you did it, you grossed $21,000 and so on and so forth. As things evolve and change in your business and now you can begin to see the pathway out of, well, how many one on one therapy hours did it take you to generate $21,000? 

 

Linzy [00:27:28] Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:27:30] And when you were focused on delivering those 21 or however many therapy hours for that $21,000, you also didn’t have the time to create something that you could scale and share with more people in this new way. What do you think? 

 

Linzy [00:27:46] I think the math is good. And I was going to say, you know, to put it into you know, since this is a financial podcast, $21,000, if we’re using like your kind of standard profit first rate that applies to most businesses are paying yourself about 50%. That’s like $10,000 in pocket that you could take home from doing that work. Yeah, it is. You really are, when you’re doing this kind of work, I think not just increasing your impact, but also in our practice, like when we’re doing one on one sessions, it’s like you might say the same thing 100 times and like one time you might say it really, really well and the next time you’re like, “Ah, that was okay, I think, I think I got it across. But I actually forgot to mention this part”. Like, what I think about too, is when you make a course and like when you package and create something like that you do get to know that it’s like your best take, right? Like you’re going to you’re going to use the version that you really like, yes, nailed it. Also added this piece that I often forget. And so you also know that there’s this certain consistency of quality that those folks who are taking the course are getting because they’ve got, you know, your best version of that spiel. 

 

Maegan [00:28:43] Mmmm I love that. 

 

Linzy [00:28:44] I think when we do therapy work, there’s beauty that comes from it, obviously, like being in person and like the relational aspect, whatever. But like if you’re having a bad day because you took too many cold meds and you’re like, woohoo, I’m a little bit loopy in the middle of the session. Speaking from personal experience, that happened to me once and I was like, “Oh dear”, you know, you’re probably doing good work, but you’re not doing your best work. And so that’s also something that I think about is like you when you take that energy to create it once, as you say, you get to that people benefit it from time, time and time again, like over and over. And also you really know that you’ve like nailed you’ve nailed it and you’re happy with the product. 

 

Maegan [00:29:18] I think that is so spot on. It’s better for everybody, I think and you and I are the first people to say like, this doesn’t happen overnight. No, we don’t want to sell you like flash in the pan. Linzy and I have been working at this for years now, and we’re still growing. We’re still learning. But what’s so exciting is that you do get to experience more freedom in your own life because you’re not committed, you know, every hour of every day to a client, you get to be more creative and more playful and you get to fine tune what you know into these courses or these programs. I do allow you to show up in the best way possible, and the people who are participating in those programs are paying a whole lot less than they would pay if they were doing long term one on one therapy with you or long term one on one coaching with you. It just kind of, it’s so expansive when you get to this place and you start it’s expansive personally, when you become more self expressed, when you start showing up as who you are and saying what you actually feel and you actually believe. Like there is a personal expansiveness that is so beautiful and healing for many of us who have been hiding our entire lives. And then there’s a professional expansiveness, right? That we’re getting to reach more people. We’re sharing what we know with more people. We’re helping more people create this powerful transformation in their lives. And yeah, there are stressors and there are learning curves and there are growing pains. But what makes it worth it for me is that expansiveness, like once you get a taste of the expansiveness, it’s really hard to go back. 

 

Linzy [00:30:50] Yes. Yes. And I would add to that to financial expansiveness as well. Right. Like I think as you know, before we started recording, you and I were chatting about kind of our own numbers and some, you know, numbers that we’re looking to meet and settle into and what becomes possible. And we were just reflecting on how a few years ago, there’s no way we would have thought we were having these conversations about, you know, like settling into consistent 30K months, 40K months, like 50K months, being the kind of, you know, level that we’re at now. That would have been a total pipe dream years ago when we started doing this work. 

 

Maegan [00:31:24] And now that we’re at that point, it’s like, oh, okay, it’s not that big a deal. You know, It’s like, okay, like we see like, yeah, you need that much money at the stage that we’re at now. We’re like, “Oh, you need 50K a month to be able to do what you want to do and pay your team well and pay yourself well”. And I think it’s really important to name too on the personal brand path. You can be as big or as small as you want. 

 

Linzy [00:31:44] Mhm. Right. 

 

Maegan [00:31:46] Like you can be a powerful company of one where you generate, you know, 150K a year and that’s a sweet spot for you and you’re living your best life. Or you can have a personal brand and say I want to make $1,000,000. Great. Make you can work your way up to making $1,000,000 or you can say, I want to make $300,000. Like there is a pathway for you financially through the personal brand roadmap that will help you meet your personal needs. And I love the flexibility of that model. 

 

Linzy [00:32:16] Yes. Yeah. Because the other thing that I think about, too, is I think about money as I also think about being able to buy back our time. You know, and as I reflect on, you know, my own decisions around how I use money in my business, it’s very much reflected for me in last few years, having time flexibility. Right? And like I have a son, he brings home every disease under the sun and like being able to just have that be okay and it’s like, I don’t have to, I don’t lose a day of revenue. Nothing is ruined, you know, like, maybe I have to, like, show up and do a coaching call because it happens on that certain day. But then I only need somebody to cover me for an hour and a half. Like, for me, I know that looking at my values in my business over the last couple of years, it’s very clear to me that I have valued my time, right? And so more money goes to pay other people. So I have lots of support. So I have lots of time. And you get to, like, play with those variables too, in your business and decide trading money for time or you work more and you make more money, but you get to play with those levers. 

 

Maegan [00:33:15] I think that is such an important lesson, but it’s something that I talk about a lot as well. It’s I think I call them creative profits, like, let’s get creative here. Like, profits aren’t always money in the bank. 

 

Linzy [00:33:28] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:33:28] How else are you profiting from your business? You’re profiting in time. Flexibility, right? You’re profiting and rest. You’re profiting in space for personal development. For me, a big one is creativity, right? That in this path I get to be creative and expressive in ways that I couldn’t be as a private practice therapist, right? That I am experimenting with a workshop or a group or an in-person event. And like that kind of playfulness and creativity is worth its weight in gold for me because it brings me joy. So I think, I want everyone who’s listening to this who feels excited about moving beyond the traditional private practice, who wants to be more self-expressed to also ask yourself, what do you need your business to do for you? Something I often say is that your business should serve you first in your clients second. So if you really are putting yourself first as the business owner, what do you need to get paid in? Time flexibility? X amount of money per year? Creative expression? More space for rest? What? I mean, the sky’s the limit. Make it whatever you want, but be really clear about what’s most important for you so you don’t get swept up in the business building space, which will just tell you to do more and more and more all the time until you, you know, grind yourself into the ground. Avoid that trap. Be clear about who you are and what you actually need. 

 

Linzy [00:34:52] And it will tell you, too, that money is the metric of success. And that’s not true. 

 

Maegan [00:34:56] Sure isn’t. 

 

Linzy [00:34:57] Especially not revenue. You make that money that comes in the top. That is not what is going to make you feel fulfilled. Yeah, that doesn’t make it worth it, frankly, especially if the money’s not working. But sometimes even when the money is working, it’s still not worth it. 

 

Maegan [00:35:11] Yeah. If you if you’re making a shit ton of money, but you have no time. Not worth it. I mean, depending on your values. But for people like me and you, it would not be worth it. Again, this is why you have to name what’s most important for you. Because maybe time flexibility is not important to you in this season of your life and what is important to you is generating as much money in the bank as possible. And if that’s true for you, great, more power to you. But be clear about it so that you don’t get swept up in other people’s expectations. 

 

Linzy [00:35:39] Hmm. So, Maegan, if folks want to get further into your world and also get that great resource you mentioned at the beginning. Where can they find you? 

 

Maegan [00:35:49] Thanks for asking Linz, yes! If you’re feeling really drawn to this conversation about self-expression and weaving more of your personality into your private practice, because that’s where it begins, right? We don’t start by creating a course or launching a high-ticket program that comes way later. It starts by first weaving more of who you are into your private practice. I would love for you to download my Personality Powerpack, which is a lesson pulled straight from Next Level Therapist and it’s a five-step guide to help you discover your authentic personality and learn how to weave that personality unapologetically into your private practice. And you can download that at Personality Power Pack dot com. And the second invitation I would love to extend Linzy, you’ve joined me in the space before. I have a weekly writing studio called Express Yourself. It is free. You can come and go as it is convenient for you. We gather with the sole intention of getting our hands dirty and practicing, expressing ourselves on the page. I give a prompt. We write together for 30 minutes and then we spend about 20 minutes at the end sharing and reflecting as a community. Do you want to read more about that and register to join us? You can do so at Express Yourself Studio dot com. 

 

Linzy [00:37:05] Great. Thank you so much Maegan for joining us today. 

 

Maegan [00:37:08] Thanks for having me back, Linz. 

 

Linzy [00:37:22] Something that stuck out from my conversation with Maegan that I think is so important is just how much therapists, and I want to say mental health therapists for sure but I also feel like I could probably say for some other health practitioners as well, how much we doubt ourselves, don’t value what we know, as I mentioned, how much we’re aware of, what we don’t know. You know, when it comes to stepping out and kind of staking our claim and sharing what we know with the world, I think it’s really easy to undervalue your expertise, you know, that you’ve gained through not just training like formal education, but also through often your own life experience. Usually, we specialize in a certain area because it has some personal relevance to us. And then the hundreds and thousands of clinical hours that we’ve spent working with people around, whatever the topic is, you know, that we focus on and that that we love to work with. I just love her point about how uniquely positioned therapists are to build these brands because we just know what we know so deeply. So if you have an area of content that you love and work that you love to do, I’d really encourage you to think about and be curious about if you ever would want to expand beyond one on one work. And, you know, think about how much you know, and how much you have to share and how much information you’re able to share with your clients every week. Both like knowledge that you have, but also ways of dealing with, you know, whatever it is that they’re struggling with. I just love Maegan’s point about how uniquely positioned we are to be able to help people on a broad scale and build these brands because of all the expertise that we amass every single week in the work that we do. I’m grateful to Maegan for coming on the podcast today. 

 

Linzy [00:39:02] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please hop over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. I’ve said it before because it’s true. It is the best way for other therapists, new therapists to find the podcast and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Celeste [00:00:01] Having a conversation about the higher fees or what someone can afford to pay is difficult. When someone’s coming in saying, I’m looking for help here and I’m paying for therapy. And how do you have that money conversation as part of the initial clinical conversation and continue to work with that in the relationship? 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?” I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is a Money Skills graduate, Dr. Celeste Pietrusza, who is a licensed clinical psychologist in private practice and a supervisor at the Green Clinic in Brooklyn, New York. Today, Celeste and I talk about class and we talk about her experience of being first generation, being the first one in her family, her working-class family to get a Ph.D. We talked about her experiences with going through that Ph.D. program, having working-class background. We talked about what challenges come up for the supervisees that she has now, where they really struggle around money and about just this pervasive lack of education, even in higher learning around money, the taboo around money and who that serves. If you are first generation or if you’re like me and you’re kind of second generation, like working-class family one or one and a half generations ago, I think you’re going to really appreciate this conversation. Today we get into some of the gaps that can exist when we have working-class backgrounds and then move into more of this kind of emotional labor and academic spaces and how some of the things that our parents teach us that worked for them and their situations don’t work for us anymore. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Celeste Pietrusza. 

 

Linzy [00:02:21] So, Celeste, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Celeste [00:02:24] Hi, it’s great to be here with you, Linzy. 

 

Linzy [00:02:25] Yeah, it’s great to be with you too. So, Celeste, you took Money Skills… what’s our timeline now? Like one year or two years ago? 

 

Celeste [00:02:35] Yes. I mean, I believe I began in 2020 and then completed in 2021. 

 

Linzy [00:02:42] Okay, so even longer than that. Okay. And you took Money Skills right at the beginning of kind of stepping into practice. Am I correct about that? 

 

Celeste [00:02:50] As I was finishing up my postdoc and moving into private practice, I was at doing my post-doc at a group practice where I supervise now. And feeling a lot of anxiety, actually, even with all of the training and preparation they had about making this move from being pre-licensed as a psychologist in New York State to getting everything together, passing the licensing exam and making this transition. And so Money Skills for Therapists laid the groundwork that got all my bank accounts set up. It felt really good to have that in place. Like even when I was like, I’m not sure how this is going to work, if this is going to work, but just trusting the process and the steps. 

 

Linzy [00:03:32] Mm hmm. Yes. And I feel when you’re talking like, I see you very much as like a student, like you’re somebody who’s really like a learner. And it sounds to me like you kind of just, like, put Money Skills, like, into your educational process as part of, like, stepping into practice. You added it to your curriculum. 

 

Celeste [00:03:49] Mm hmm. Yes. I mean, I wish I had something like this along the way in graduate school. 

 

Linzy [00:03:53] In actual graduate school, Yes. 

 

Celeste [00:03:55] I think about it as yeah, as a class that I, that I needed for licensure. 

 

Linzy [00:04:01] Right. Right. So going back then, like thinking kind of before your time and Money Skills, like you’ve done a lot of work on this. But I’m curious, Celeste, thinking about your, your background, how did that influence your relationship with money before you took Money Skills and became a supervisor as you are now? 

 

Celeste [00:04:18] So neither of my parents, neither my mom or nor my dad went to college. And so my dad was a union sheet metal worker and my mother helped run his business of contracting, too. And so they were really detail oriented about money. And yet in terms of me going to college and having very different challenges that they did too, and especially with a graduate education too going to PhD level student debt too, it was a new kind of structure. I mean, whereas in the union, once you get to journeyman start making a wage, you can make a specific wage and begin at 21. The training process with undergraduate is over ten years really to get Ph.D. level. And I was coming out as an adult and yet at the same time feeling what do I do now too, and made it this way and feeling like a very unique set of challenges as a generation college student. 

 

Linzy [00:05:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That first-generation experience. Because you were experiencing how to navigate something financially that your parents had never done before. And I’m curious, Celeste, like, did they want that for you? Like, was that part of the narrative growing up? Okay, so they wanted you to get that post-secondary education? 

 

Celeste [00:05:37] Yeah, I feel really fortunate. It was something that they encouraged my brother and sibling and I, and we all did get terminal degrees in our respective fields too as well. And so it was something I mean, the idea was you go to school and get an education so you don’t have to work as hard as we did. And there’s something about that on the one hand, in that investment of their time and labor and energy, that’s very empowering. And also at the same time, and we also have to work hard in a in a different way to lead in expected mental lives. 

 

Linzy [00:06:14] Yeah, like I’m, your Ph.D I’m guessing was not like super laid back and it was not a life of leisure, I would guess.

 

Celeste [00:06:20]  I was talking with someone who was not familiar with the process that you did an externship and then you did an internship, a full-year internship before your Ph.D. and then, only then you had to write a dissertation and that’s how the training process went. And so it did feel like there were constant deadlines and things to meet on a small stipend, too as well.

 

Linzy [00:06:48]  Right. Yeah. Like it’s a different type of labor that you’re having to do. And so I’m curious, and Celeste, like coming from that experience of being first generation, what was your relationship with money like, going back a few years ago before you really started working on this? Or maybe you’d already done some work at that time? I’m not sure. 

 

Celeste [00:07:06] Oh, I would start, well, I had to dig in. I mean, like I had gotten to the point where it was really time. I mean, I kind of money avoidance is what I would call it, had come to a crisis point. Like my idea was, okay, I will work to make sure I have enough for what I need and for what I want too. And yet at the same time, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I mean, maybe we don’t ever, I wasn’t thinking and planning for this future too in private practice, because everywhere it went along the way in the Ph.D. program, we were told, don’t think about that stuff until you get there. There’s enough to think about now. Or sometimes we’d be told things that were for far later, really early when they didn’t quite stick. One of the first presentations in graduate school was about how to file your dissertation with the library on day one in orientation. 

 

Linzy [00:08:01] They’re like, This is important. File this away for several years in your brain, but don’t think about how you’re actually going to make money when you’re out of here. That’s too much to think about. 

 

Celeste [00:08:09] Right? That was yeah, that was not addressed. I mean, I think there was maybe a panel once along the way, a colloquium of people in private practice. But it was also very early, like maybe first or second year of graduate school. And so it was nice to see that it was possible and see some role models and people to identify with. And yet at the same time, the absorption and capacity to say, okay, here’s what you do, here’s the like your course, the money nuts and bolts to what was not there to at least in any kind of formalized structured way.  

 

Linzy [00:08:44] Right. Yeah. So Celeste, then I’m curious for you emotionally, what was your relationship with money like? Like I’m hearing there was avoidance. What was in the mix there? 

 

Celeste [00:08:54] Oh, overwhelm. Kind of putting, an ostrich putting my head in the sand is the image that comes to mind. Like it’ll be okay, just and sometimes, and maybe this was part of the working class background in my family, was just work more. Like in when in doubt, add more work to the problem. You know, it’s what I saw my father doing it. It worked out in many ways for our family. And yet I learned that is not always the answer. Work harder. Working smarter was not something I really understood how to do, and I’m still learning along the way too what that means. Particularly in the psychology profession too, where I do feel a pull and a call to this one sometimes do want to do more and yet have had to also have the process of learning my own limits too. 

 

Linzy [00:09:45] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because when you mentioned like that work harder narrative, it occurs to me like that that is often the solution when you are working class, unless you actually have some sort of, you know, pathway up, you know, unless you can make it into management or whatever. But that’s such a small group compared to the folks who are doing the actual work. That’s the tool you have, right, is you can work more because even if you get a raise, it’s not going to be the kind of raise that we can get as therapists, right? Like, it’s just a totally different, like wage metric that we’re talking about there or scale. And so that occurs to me is like you’re given the advice or you’ve absorbed the strategy. That was the strategy that was available to your dad, and it did work for your dad, but it doesn’t actually apply to the work that you do in the same way. 

 

Celeste [00:10:32] No, I mean, people often think this an exaggeration, but my father would wake up sometimes 4 a.m. and I mean he’d stop back in to eat quickly. But when I mean, it would be ten, 11, midnight some nights as well. And there wasn’t this concept of the weekend either, because as he said, there’s always more work, right? You know, there’s more work to be done, right? Like and something he told me once and I’ve learned this now is a positive lesson, but at the time as a kid, I felt this pang, he said “Life is maintenance and maintenance is life”. 

 

Linzy [00:11:11] Yeah, I could see that. 

 

Celeste [00:11:13] And on the one hand, it is important for the daily actions and things you have to do. And yet it also as a kid as I heard this “Really is that all there is, like can there be a vacation?”.

 

Linzy [00:11:25] Well and like that’s so interesting. I mean, it makes me think about this summer. My partner and I had a backyard cottage built in our backyard, and sometimes I’ll say, “Oh, yeah, we built a backyard cottage”. Things like, Oh, no, no, we didn’t build it, we didn’t build it. We looked out the window at people working exceptionally hard, working to build it with their hands with skills that I 0% have. And something that I thought about sometimes as I walked, especially when we had to like, hire a heavy road crew of like guys with like literal jackhammers, you know, like experiencing like what is really a terrible workplace from a health perspective, like absorbing these fumes and just, like, rattling their organs. Like, sometimes I would look at them and just like, visualize their organs shaking in their bodies from the physical work they were doing to, like, destroy something on my property so they could fix it. And it just gave me this deeper appreciation for how much, when you are really working with your body, which is what a lot of folks are working class, that’s what you’re told to do with what you have to do. You have to put your emotions and physical sensations aside. You have to dissociate. There’s no way that those guys are not dissociating in order to be able to physically do what they do. And from like, if I think about an IFS perspective, like a parts perspective like that is managers. They have manager parts galore that are like making it. So it’s like, “Nope, you do the work” and like “Yep, your knee hurts and it’s been hurting for three weeks, but you can’t go to the doctor right now because you’ve got this contract to finish”. And so you just like you put it down, you manage, you manage, you manage, you manage and like some of those things that I think we might be able to have more access to in the kind of work that we do, of just like being present and slowing down and feeling it. It’s just like that kind of manual working class work is not conducive to really being like present, in like the more emotional parts of life. Like, I’m curious about your thoughts about that. 

 

Celeste [00:13:09] I really appreciate how you described and phrased that, because that does describe in this very empathic way the ethos that I grew up with too. There isn’t time for emotions too and I realize I began, my Psychology Today profile begins with the sentence that sounds similar to ” There may not feel like there’s time in my life to voice complex feelings and emotions” and that aspect too, of pushing it aside to continue really deeply resonates to me. My father had a lot of trauma and work was a way of it helped him heal, I believe, in some ways. And it also put aside and what are some other forms of intergenerational healing too, as well. 

 

Linzy [00:13:55] Totally, yeah. I mean, it makes me think about my grandfathers. I feel like my family, actually, that’s not true, my father is not college educated. My mother is community college educated, like, went into professional programs. But you’re, what you’re describing is very much how my grandfathers both live their lives. It’s like you work hard. Work is good when you are working. It is good. You are providing for your family, that is good. But like my one grandfather would like work hard and then like, go drink with the boys all night because he had like, done what he supposed to do. He had provided, and so he wasn’t going to, like, show up and hang out with his family. Like he needed to go drink, and he had a lot of trauma that I’m sure he was also avoiding at the end of the day. And so, yeah, there is it’s a different ethos than I think what has obviously been the kind of work that we’ve moved into and the kind of lives that we’re able to live. 

 

Celeste [00:14:40] And at the same time being mostly now seeing clients one on one and supervising too, I do run some groups as well and a little bit of teaching. But most of my work is one on one with clients. I do feel things and have the experiences emotionally in my body and how the experiences with my clients are things that do take time too to process and make space for, with myself and other relationships in my life too and what I’ve learned through all of self-compassion work and things that I do with my clients too, is how to give those grace. Because I think what growing up and seeing the men in my family work that way and the women in my family too, took on a lot of hard physical labor task too. My mother is around 70 years old and she chainsaws things and the things that she does just four pull ups every morning.  

 

Linzy [00:15:39] It’s amazing. I could do zero pull ups at this moment, I’m quite sure. 

 

Celeste [00:15:42] Oh, I think I’ve even at my fittest and youngest, I couldn’t do the flexed arm hang. I’ll do it. I’ll hold on to it. 

 

Linzy [00:15:49] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can cling but not pulling up. Yeah. 

 

Celeste [00:15:54] And so I this is the people I grew up with too. And there are some ways to have the sensitivity to, how to be mindful of my own sensitivities and gifts and value them equally and definitely too is something that I work on too. And I think that has been something that my family more broadly has come to recognize as an asset too, because it was so different. I mean, I don’t think I was thinking about this the other day, and I didn’t know anyone when I was growing up who volunteered or elected to go to therapy or and if so, they didn’t speak about it. 

 

Linzy [00:16:36] MmMmm Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I think about my family, which again I think is one generation removed but still has a lot of this trickle-down stuff, that’s still the case in my family, I think I’m the only one. Yeah, No, I shouldn’t say that if I go extended, but certainly it is amazing how much that mindset can persevere generation to generation. Of just kind of like well, I think I think now the ethos in my family is more like, “Well, it’s good that other people do it, but like, I don’t need it”. It’s good that other people have it. Even when my grandmother went for therapy because my grandfather was basically failing and going to die and she had all this stress and she was carrying so much stuff. So she saw the therapist once and she was like, “Well, that’s good”. Like, And the therapist wanted her to come back and she was very surprised. Because she was like, “Well, what is there to talk about? We just talked.” you know. So just like this idea of like, well, I did therapy. I did this. I talked about it. Now I’m going to go back and like, you know. You know, my grandmother, a similar program is going on like this very, even when she was retired, this very rigid, like chore routine and like things would happen annually at certain times, like work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work. Like even every day was work well into retirement. 

 

Celeste [00:17:37] And I’m thinking, as you say that about your grandmother, putting it on this checklist and checking it off too, and how much of acculturation there is and to do with and to therapy too what it means to be in a culture of therapy as well, and having a sense of its rhythms, a sense of even the routine, self-care routine too. I’m thinking about how clients too may come in unaware of what is this. People who are in therapy for the first time, who haven’t known anyone in therapy, like, I have to do this every week. Why? Then here we are saying just, just trust us, right? 

 

Linzy [00:18:18] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:18:19] And they’re like, Who are you? I like to start. I mean, and like, you don’t have to immediately trust me just because I’m a therapist. I mean, I know that that’s a message too that people get. It may take time to build that relationship and that groundwork. How we frame and talk about it too as well. And I’m thinking too, about even the culture of training as a therapist, which is something that I had an earlier career before. I’m going back to graduate school too. And so that was different for me to come into psychology, graduate school of training. I guess after we experience some things and really grapple with a lot of differences or things that I didn’t know too. 

 

Linzy [00:19:08] Hmm. Can you say more about what those looked like or some examples of that? 

 

Celeste [00:19:13] There’s a lot of discussion of like “We as therapists know this” and I’m like, this is my first year in a graduate program. I did not study psychology and I was this before this, I’d done a lot of crisis work and community crisis work too. And so asking for clarification on those things too, and like how to not know without any kind of judgment, because there was an idea being raised and going to school and going to public school, you get that there are “right ways to do things”, quote – unquote, and answers like that’s how you are a good student along the way. And even it comes almost naturally now to say, “Oh, there’s no right or wrong here” to that those embedded idea, I mean, when you are coming from a trades and crafts person-type background, right my mom would say, “Wait, what do you mean there’s no right or wrong? If you put the table on wrong, it’s going to fall down”. 

 

Linzy [00:20:12] Like, yeah, there is a right and wrong in the real world. If you build the bridge wrong, it’s going to be wrong. It’s going to fall apart. That’s very wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, that makes me curious to just like in your experience, do you think were you encountering in that any kind of like, I don’t even know the language for this, but some sort of like class disconnect or an assumption about who you were and what you had experienced before getting to this point that was not accurate in your case? 

 

Celeste [00:20:40] Yes. And they had the fortunate experience of having some other graduate students and colleagues to connect with about that, too. I mean, another one was the idea with money issues is don’t worry about it, you’re going to be fine. Which maybe reinforced this feeling I already had too, that was out of this place of unknown fear. I was already stretching it a bit. And then this was being felt like mis validated in a way too, thinking that wasn’t the message that I grew up with. And definitely, I mean, sometimes I had done that was much younger “Do not worry about it would be fine” and it wasn’t, it really wasn’t.  

 

Linzy [00:21:20] Right. Yes. Yeah. Because the assumption that “Don’t worry about it, it will be fine”, the unspoken part I think there is that there are safety nets like your parents can swoop in and help, or you can get a job through this connection. Like there’s a lot of, I think, assumptions there. That would make someone fine that are not accurate if you’re not actually in like a connected middle-class, upper-class situation. 

 

Celeste [00:21:43] I remember one colleague, a graduate student along with me, saying that “your parents don’t give you an allowance?”, right? And I was thinking, “I’m 30 years old… No!”. And also “What?”, right. And, and they did, I mean, they did when I was a kid. She was, like, not even, like, $500 a month. And my mind at that moment, I was just, I just realized, because I didn’t see her as someone particularly wealthy even, and yet it was a that felt like a market class difference there. 

 

Linzy [00:22:15] Sure. 

 

Celeste [00:22:15] It was like the idea even, and it’s common, and usual parents can support and help and children and adult children that they they will and do. And that wasn’t an idea. It was if you needed it, of course we’ll be there. The sense of like really making sure that we took care of ourselves and knew how to do that was so ingrained in me and at a very young age. 

 

Linzy [00:22:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now, Celeste, as a supervisor, you know, working with clinicians who are pre-licensed folks coming into the field, I’m curious like, what do you see your supervisees struggling with as they’re, you know, building their practices and working with clients when it comes to, you know, these pieces that we’re talking about? 

 

Celeste [00:23:02]  The first one is the fee setting and discussions around money and the emotions that they bring up for clinicians too as well. And so in my training experience, I first worked at the Duquesne University Psychology Clinic, and it was a community clinic that had a sliding scale. And at the time I believed the most that we had ever charged for the fee was $40. Then at the Green Clinic, we’re in Brooklyn, where I did my postdoc. The sliding scale ranges with the high end to $225, which is the usual and customary for the zip codes the clinic is in. And so the supervisor trainees, I mean, people would come in at a 40 or $60 sliding scale, 150 or 225 and those are very different situations too as well, and how to have those discussions and take that into account. How the Green work is the higher fees help subsidize and make it possible for trainees to see people in the community that don’t have insurance or out-of-network benefits. And there and yet having a conversation about the higher fees or what someone can’t afford to pay is difficult when someone’s coming in saying I’m looking for help here and I’m paying for therapy. And how do you have that money conversation as part of the initial clinical conversation and continue to work with that in the relationship, especially if you haven’t had that experience or that discussion. And I feel really fortunate we have didactic agreement and a lot of support and process around that aspect of training too. And yet, you know, it’s something that this point, you know, I still have work to do around the emotions that come up with it. 

 

Linzy [00:24:59] Yeah, I was going to say like, what are some of those emotions that come up for your supervisees that you still notice coming up in yourself around those conversations? 

 

Celeste [00:25:07] So supervisees, I hear of anxiety and fear, too. As well guilt, shame too, so some difficult ones. Some frustration too because when having a discussion about money can bring up so much else. And it’s hard to know, you know, what are someone’s real assets and aspects of their of their life, too, that feed into the full picture, too. And so and I really do, I mean I still feel the call and we have some class shame too around those differences and, and fears of loss or rupture too in the relationship are common. 

 

Linzy [00:25:50] Like if you do the conversation wrong, you could ruin this relationship? 

 

Celeste [00:25:54] Or lose good parts of it too? Definitely is, that the aspect that comes up too, like the how to keep money intertwined and see it as a part of social and relational exchange rather than. I mean, it can be this idea, I mean, it comes in art too, as well, other factors of life like, “Oh, here’s something that where money is separate, here’s the art, here’s the money. Here’s the therapy, here’s the money”. And I think this is in lots of cultural aspects to the idea about money being dirty in and of itself. 

 

Linzy [00:26:28] Right. Right. We don’t contaminate the relationship with money. Yeah. Yeah. And like what? I mean, I’m glad to hear that there is training, in the place that you work. But I’m thinking in general, like, what a setup in a way, right? Where it’s like, you know, when we are providing service, whether it’s within a larger framework where we have to help somebody figure out what fee, where they should land, or whether it’s if we’re in private practice and then it’s just us by ourself trying to figure out, okay, like what? What am I offering? How how do I know what to ask? Like, how do I determine what somebody with sliding scale somebody “deserves to access”? I’m putting this in quotations. Like what a loaded heavy topic to have to deal with when we have no training on it. 

 

Celeste [00:27:11] And again, to go back to we only know what we know. We can’t know what we don’t know until you come into encounter it. Too is, you know, when I moved from Pittsburgh to Brooklyn, I mean the sense of the disparity and the difference between that, I mean, I purchased a house in Pittsburgh in graduate school for $65,000, ready to move in, four bedrooms, in the city. I could walk to the campus. 

 

Linzy [00:27:38] Whaouh. 

 

Celeste [00:27:38] And that’s not the case there. You don’t. 

 

Linzy [00:27:40] No? Okay. Yeah. So I was a little while ago. 

 

Celeste [00:27:42] Well, it was ten years. 

 

Linzy [00:27:44] So it’s not that long. 

 

Celeste [00:27:45] Pittsburgh still affordable. I’ll put in a plug for Pittsburgh any day. 

 

Linzy [00:27:49] You get a house for not 65,000, but not also 6 million. 

 

Celeste [00:27:54] Yeah, under, under 300. A nice house in the city and then coming to New York to where, I mean studio apartments, a basic one-room, between 300 and $600,000 minimum for studios. Very different kind of experience and you know the kind of money that people make is a lot more and sometimes a lot less. 

 

Linzy [00:28:20] Yeah, yeah. 

 

Celeste [00:28:21] You as well. And so even just knowing that is a cultural monetary context took some time to get oriented to because my first response is I, I’m not even licensed. I can’t charge people $225. 

 

Linzy [00:28:36] I remember those conversations. 

 

Celeste [00:28:38] And now it’s very, very different. Like, I mean, that feels right, and it’s an even it’s possible to charge more than the too as well for the service and quality of service too. And yet, I mean, I had the first idea that “Oh, there’s no one who’s going to be able to afford that”. I’ll see no clients. It was kind of an all-or-nothing thinking about it, and it was coming from a place of fear and insecurity myself, too. And that’s a hard way to begin and set off on one foot when there’s now all the other training too, and all this other conversation around so many topics and some of the other hardest topics in life grief or death, sexuality, trauma, abuse too, talking about all the incarceration, talking about all these hard things. And yet somehow, I mean, in at least in graduate school, I didn’t have a class where we talked about class or money. And now at this point, I’m amazed because it’s something that people’s, people experience extreme distress over and we’re using every day in our life. I mean, they think that be hard pressed to find a clinician who hasn’t had a class about eating and food and and have problems with eating disorders, too. And yet money that’s not our area. Seems like it’s engaging in the same, it’s avoidance. 

 

Linzy [00:30:11] Yeah, totally. I mean I think that really speaks to just how powerful that taboo is around money, right? It’s like these other things, at least we know we’re supposed to talk about them. We’re like, “Well, even it’s just uncomfortable, we will like, learn how to talk about sexuality with our clients”. But it’s like money, as you say, can still be perceived as this, like dirty, separate, let’s not bring it into the therapeutic relationship, even though, as you say, every day, every day people eat and every day they need to either make money and/or spend money in order to just like survive in the world, right? It’s a non-negotiable. It’s not even like an optional interest topic that might apply. It like literally applies to every single person that we see, as well as all of us as individuals. And yet it’s not taught, not even that it’s not taught robustly. It’s just not taught, period. 

 

Celeste [00:30:59] Yeah, I mean, I wrote a dissertation on Kink in BDSM at a Catholic university which had its pledges, and yet the big money stuff in large yet has been had more silences, more gaps to in ongoing to than that experience. And and I wonder about what might be possible in terms of a new generation of clinicians in thinking forward and trying to build some of this education into our discussions and training processes in a much less abstract way too. I mean, that is maybe what I bring from my background as well. And what I really appreciated about your course too, is the nuts and bolts are also emotional pieces too, and having that foundation through the course and work allowed me to feel like a more confident, grounded clinician. Even simple things like how I set up my bank accounts. Would you run this through even when they didn’t have any money in them? 

 

Linzy [00:32:09] Right.  

 

Celeste [00:32:10] I think I just started my private practice account and I was like, okay, I’m just I trust and trust you, so I’m going to get four bank accounts, even though only one of them has a balance. And we’Il see how this goes. 

 

Linzy [00:32:24] Yes, Yes.And something about that, you know, Celeste, this is where I was saying the beginning to like you have like, you’re just such a student, right? Like, you know how to learn because I think that’s something that sometimes folks struggle with when they think about doing this work before practicing, right? Like before being in private practice. They’re like “Well, I want to wait until I’m making money. Otherwise there’s nothing to do”. But there’s so much to learn before you do, right? And if we don’t learn before we do, we end up all of this. Like, you know, there was a visual that came to me as you were talking a few minutes ago, of like, kind of like pulling through the muck. It’s like we’re like all of this money, you know, cultural messages, class messages, personal experiences, like all of it. All of it, All of it. We’re trying to kind of like, sort through and make movement. And if we don’t learn about these things early on, we are going to end up creating like practices and systems and relationships with our clients where all this money murkiness is like very much defining it. Whereas you like trusted the process, did it anyways, even though there was literally no money. And in doing so you built something that worked before it was even happening. 

 

Celeste [00:33:31] Well, I found that making those bank accounts was a doing and was a future oriented effort too in that way, that it was a, it was also an experience of seeing that I had agency in building that future too. And so and that was really that felt so empowering too is to take the actions that are possible in the moment of learning and while they’re possible and then just continue to build on it. And so I just, I don’t have the vision for this yet, but I could see a group of clinicians or people coming together in a way to say like, “how can we really keep this as a core part of curriculum in going forward?” I mean, again, outside my field of practice, but I even wonder about that. You mean how classes use come into other forms of education before we get there? In public school, there’s a lot of classes about many, many topics. And even in all of the calculus, algebra, even economics, which I think covers money stuff, economics I took did not talk about how do you invest your money or how do you structure needs  and wants. That kind of foundation could then help us prepare, is the emotional side of what it means to plan for particular goals or futures or what happens when you have a crisis or if things go awry too. How does money move between people and family members, and then what emotions come up around the ties that money binds too. And there’s ways that we could work across fields for that. 

 

Linzy [00:35:06] Yeah, like it’s just as you’re saying it, you know, it’s just really sinking to me. Like what a massive omission it is in our education because there’s so much there. And, you know, it makes me curious, Celeste, like, of your perspective, do you think there’s a reason we’re not taught it? Like, is it is the taboo the full reason, or is there a deeper reasons like or other reasons? What do you think? 

 

Celeste [00:35:27] I believe it benefits power and the, the current system to keep class divisions as well. Even if that’s never said explicitly, I believe what we leave out, you know, we can see this with race and curriculum too, how story is told and what’s not told perpetuates the things that are in the status quo in power, because then it’s not it seems like it’s less possible to say “Wait, look at that there”. 

 

Linzy [00:35:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Celeste [00:35:56] Students are empowered with knowledge. They can call it into question, engage with it, and and have an access point for change. 

 

Linzy [00:36:06] Yeah. Yeah. It’s like the system perpetuates itself through education. Yeah. Okay. So for folks who are listening and maybe folks who are listening and like relating and they’re like, this is so much like my story and my experiences. I’m curious, Celeste, or for folks who are maybe stepping into private practice, like what would you suggest as a starting point? Where do they go if they’re feeling like all of these things are? They’re ostraging. And all of these things are stacked against them, like what is a starting place to start to build a more empowered relationship with money. Get where they want to go.

 

Celeste [00:36:42]  I really feel like I started with Money Skills for Therapists, so I have to lay that out there. It was so foundational in getting to this discussion today. In addition to that too, I really start talking to others about it. I mean, like, that’s the most important aspect there is begin to have the conversations with money, with supervisors, with colleagues, with friends and family. See how it feels too and what’s possible to find that edge, I’ll say, and notice what kind of emotions come up around it. You start to bring awareness and money awareness into one’s, one’s psyche and as much as possible in a non-judgmental way, because so much judgment can come up around it or to notice the judgments too. I find that so helpful in my clinical practice, really to make that explicit, whether it’s like keeping a log and writing it down and really looking at it and saying, “Now I believe that. Does it necessarily mean that it’s true?”. 

 

Linzy [00:37:43] Yeah, right. Yeah. And like, you know, I’m, I’m hearing there like a being with, that’s starting to create some distance because these stories are running in our minds whether we’re vocalizing them or not. So if we start to externalize them, whether that’s to like a journal or talking to your best friend or having a conversation, asking your mom some questions about money, then we’re actually putting those things out loud and starting to create the opportunity for some like distance and for maybe those to start to be shifted or at least questioned or softened. Because, you know, they’re so powerful. The stories that we carry and the experiences that we have and yet so often we never fully vocalize and actually put words to the thoughts that are bouncing around our heads all the time about money. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, Celeste. It was wonderful talking to you today. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. 

 

Celeste [00:38:31] Thanks. It’s been great too. 

 

Linzy [00:38:32] And Celeste, before we finish up, is there anywhere you want to direct folks who are listening to the podcast, any resources or things you’d like to share with them? 

 

Celeste [00:38:40] So for anyone in the New York City area, I like to put out a plug for Greene clinic in Brooklyn. It’s a community based, psycho dynamically oriented training clinic and center too, that provides affordable and sliding scale psychotherapy individuals, couples, children and adolescents, as well as some options for art therapy. With a mission to help prepare clinicians and training for their future careers, as well as to provide services to the broader community. And so the website is www.greeneclinic.com. 

 

Linzy [00:39:20] Greene like the name. Great. Thank you. Celeste. 

 

Celeste [00:39:24] Thank you. 

 

Linzy [00:39:37] I really appreciated Celeste coming on the podcast today and talking about her experiences and also talking about, you know, just this pervasive lack of education about money and, you know, thinking about class and who does learn about money, who’s assumed that they’re going to have money and should know how to manage it, who doesn’t? And it just makes me feel very grateful that, you know, Celeste and I’m sure other wonderful supervisors out there are at least starting to have these conversations about money with their supervisees, you know, pre licensed. So folks are getting the support earlier in their professional journeys. I mean, the ideal, obviously, is that we would be getting financial education at home when our kids like when we’re four years old and then in grade two and in grade five and all the way through. Maybe this will be my next career will be getting financial education into public schools so that kids actually have literacy and skills around money from the very start. That would be the dream. But, you know, I think the second best is getting it into our professional education, you know, and making influence or having positive influence on the therapists who are who are coming up and who are stepping into this space and can benefit from learning the things that some of us, some of you listing have already learned and started to put into play around your relationship with money. 

 

Linzy [00:40:55] If you can impart some of those things to someone who’s newer in their journey, it’s an amazing gift. It’s going to save them a lot of headache and pain. And as Celeste mentioned, she took Money Skills before she even started her practice. And that’s something that I often suggest to folks, if it’s possible doing Money Skills before you even start your practice. As we talked about, let’s you, set yourself up for success before you even have money to manage. You get to do the learning before you actually, do the learning, but as she said, also like putting things in place, like building out a system before you’ve already had your relationship with money and your negative stories around money impact the way that you shape your practice. That’s a beautiful thing. But of course, always the second best thing is that we learn from exactly where we are today. So if you’re listening and you feel like there’s so much to learn about money and you’ve set things up wrong and you’re ostraging like Celeste, I love her suggestion of just start having conversations with folks around you. You know that Money Skills for Therapists exists and that support is there for you as well. And I would love to help you in this work. It’s powerful talking about money, that lack of education has a huge impact on us and anything we can do to start to break the silence and build skills and help the people around us build skills is powerful. 

 

Linzy [00:42:06] If you’d like to follow me on Instagram, you can find me @moneynutsandbolts And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It is the best way for folks to find us. Thanks for listening today. 

Erin [00:00:06] I would say the very first step would be to write down that second step I laid out, which is what do you need to thrive? And it isn’t about money at that moment. It is legitimately just about what do you need to thrive? 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?”. I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today I am joined by Erin Gibb. Erin Gibb is a fellow Ontarian with me, and she is a therapist, a clinical supervisor and a group practice owner, podcast host and Therapist Fulfillment coach. Fulfillment is a big part of what we talk about today. Erin and I get into this idea of a Thrive fee, understanding what it takes for you to be fulfilled and thrive in your life and looking at your practice from that lens. We talk a lot about industry conditioning as well as our own personal conditioning and social conditioning that could keep us kind of mired in struggle and in under-earning, although that’s not a word that we use. That’s the word that occurs to me now about some of what we talk about and also talk about what would happen if the therapists, if we actually agreed to take care of ourselves and to be okay and to be fulfilled and to thrive. What that could actually mean for our industry and insurance fees and all these other things. Erin, in the work that she does, talks about creating a therapist revolution, and I’m not much of a revolution woman myself, I’m more of like, read books and listen to records and be in my garden kind of person. But I got pretty excited today thinking about what would happen if we therapists actually agreed that we’re not going to take it anymore. Here’s my conversation with Erin Gibb. 

 

Linzy [00:02:27] So, Erin, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Erin [00:02:30] Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. 

 

Linzy [00:02:31] So, Erin, you and I are both Ontarians. We are in the same geographical region. 

 

Erin [00:02:37] Yes we are. 

 

Linzy [00:02:38] A few hours apart, which is like kind of novel in the online, you know, like therapist consulting business, building space. You called it just before in our chat, just before we started recording the soup that we’re all in of different folks helping therapists. Usually, people are scattered far and wide, but you and I are actually both Canadians in Ontario, so it’s nice to have a kind of more local connection today. 

 

Erin [00:02:59] Yeah, we’re kind of like neighbours. I actually interviewed someone recently who I didn’t realize is literally a neighbour. I could probably walk to their house. And I was stunned because I’ve interviewed people from South Africa. So it’s cool to be you know, neighbour. 

 

Linzy [00:03:13] It’s kind of novel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the definition of neighbour becomes very generous when we’re talking about like the entirety of North America and the world. So, Erin, could you tell folks, as we dive in just a little bit about the work that you do? 

 

Erin [00:03:29] Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll give a little bio to tell people about myself. I’m a therapist. I am a group practice owner and a clinical supervisor, a podcaster and a Therapist Fulfillment coach. So I’m going to focus on the last part because that is the part of the soup that I’m excited about. I’m excited about all of it, but I’m jazzed the most about that. And really, when I say Therapist Fulfillment coach, my purpose there is to really focus on fulfillment. And the interesting thing is that therapists really help others with fulfillment. 

 

Linzy [00:04:05] Yes, all day. 

 

Erin [00:04:06] All day. And what I’ve seen from therapist after therapist is that actually we are really good at following rules, we’re excellent students of our culture. That helps people in our cultures be really successful. And yet success and fulfillment are not even close to the same thing. So one of the things I help people with is understanding that when you create from the conditioning of whatever was taught to you to be a therapist, most times you’re going to end up somewhere like burnout or perhaps self-sacrificing, over-responsible, these are all the things we’re taught. And so the road to fulfillment doesn’t come by moving towards the stuff we’re supposed to do. It comes from creating from what would actually be fulfilling. 

 

Linzy [00:04:55] You know, there was a piece there that stuck out to me that got my wheels turning. You said that we are really good at following society’s conditioning, so we’re good at helping other people succeed in society, right? Can you say a little bit more about that part? 

 

Erin [00:05:09] Yeah. If you look at what it takes to become a therapist, we are good at being studious. And studies, in at least the Western world at a bare minimum, are about following the information you’re given and regurgitating it and doing what you’re supposed to do. And then we’re unleashed into the world in a field where we were promised that it would be meaningful, and our work is meaningful, but meaningful kind of like success doesn’t mean fulfillment. You’ve been given these ingredients to not be well, right? So I was recently on someone else’s podcast and they were talking about therapists have this incredible difficulty charging what they’re worth, for example, all these different mindset blocks, and I see that it goes back further. So to answer your question, I hope I’m answering it. But the point here is it’s really just the conditions hijack. And so yeah, we help other people, but from this place, that’s very fascinating. What we would say to a client is often hard to live when it comes to a certain choice point. Therapists are a well bunch on some level, and we are so knowledgeable, and we really know about self-compassion and self-care. But when it comes to a choice point where it feels like we’re choosing ourselves over someone else, it becomes a really difficult thing. And I want to help therapists understand that’s normal. We were trained to do that. 

 

Linzy [00:06:47] Mm hmm. Right. So that conditioning then, like, you know, that training that we have, how does that show up in our practices in terms of finances and money? 

 

Erin [00:06:55] Oh, what a great question. Finances are what I like to focus because it’s really tangible when I do certain things. So where it shows up is how we go about setting a fee would be an example. For me, I see four different areas that people go to immediately when they set a fee. And I’m going to say before I explain this, I’ve done every single one of these, battle-tested and seen the outcome, which is we set too low of a fee and then that becomes a problem pretty quickly. But the mindset piece is here, come back to this self-sacrifice, I would say. But the first thing I see is people want to set their fee from a place of worth. 

 

Linzy [00:07:32] Right. 

 

Erin [00:07:34] And very quickly, that starts to become clear it’s about self-worth. It doesn’t take long before it becomes about: “Can I really say that out loud and feel good about it or do I want to hide?”. And so we start this kind of the wheels turning about worth, what is my service worth? And then it’s about, well what am I worth? It’s it’s a hop, skip and a jump there. And the ego gets in and gets kind of squirrely. Then we might shift to value. So what is the value of my service? What I’ve seen therapists do is say, “Well, I don’t think my service is that valuable, but it will be valuable when I get this training and this certification.”. 

 

Linzy [00:08:15] Yes. Yeah. Then it will be worth it. 

 

Erin [00:08:16]  There’s our conditioning, right? It can project the image that I’m perfect then I will be okay. But then people start setting this idea of a fee that- I will actually set a fee that will support me and I’ll get into what I call that, which is a Thrive fee – once I have all of these other boxes ticked. But that pushes the Thrive fee down the road. And actually it’s not anchored to anything, when we try to set our fee from worth or value it’s squarely, it’s a moving target and it is not anchored to anything. But then when I’ve walked people through this process, they go, okay, fine. So I get it, it’s not about my self-worth and value can’t be measured like that. But how about comparison? That’s a really, that’s the third way that’s available. Yeah, that’s available. We try to compare. And from my perspective, that’s normal or do that. And we’re excellent students of our culture, so we’re going to look around, but we have no idea how someone else set their fee. 

 

Linzy [00:09:20]  Mm hmm Yeah. 

 

Erin [00:09:21] They’ve set it from their sense of self-worth that maybe isn’t where they’d like it to be. Did they value their services as a moving target of when they get more training? Do they have a completely different financial situation than us? I can give you an example of that. I have a clinical supervisor who has been doing this for 48 years. He’s a psychologist, he’s an older gentleman. And when people in my clinic, when I coach them or people around me and I’ve done workshops and coach them, they’re like, “How could I possibly set a fee that’s higher than his?” And I said, I get that. That’s about self-worth. It’s about value, it’s about comparison. But I ask them, “Do you think he has his house paid off?”. And they’re usually like, “Probably, but I don’t know”. And I said, “Exactly, you have no idea why he’s genuinely setting his fee the way he is”. 

 

Linzy [00:10:14] Right. Right. 

 

Erin [00:10:15] Comparison doesn’t really work because most of us are choosing to set our fees in one of these ways. It is very uncomfortable to set those fees. But the fourth thing I see is the derailer a fee setting is the fantasy, what I call it. And that is where we imagine what other people can pay. 

 

Linzy [00:10:32] Right. Yes. 

 

Erin [00:10:34] Again, and just like comparison, we have no idea what a person that they’ve never met would pay. In fact, it goes as far as we probably don’t know what our existing clients woudl pay, let alone someone else. 

 

Linzy [00:10:46] Right. Yes. 

 

Erin [00:10:48] The value of the work we do, once you do a consultation with someone isn’t about the money. It becomes about can you actually hold a container where I’m seen and heard and valued and held in this caring relationship? If all we did was tell people over the phone our fee, then that would be their only marker of the value of the service. But once we go through a process to help them understand what we do, the money becomes less significant. But to me, the antidote to all this is really about setting a Thrive fee. 

 

Linzy [00:11:23] When I hear you say the fantasy fee, you know, I think previous to a couple of years ago, I’ve always thought about fantasy as a positive word, right? It’s like Fantasia, you know, like, I don’t know, that kind of fantasy is positive. But I have a friend, Tiffany McClain, who is, you know, in the therapist support space as well, and she’s a psychoanalyst. And through our conversations over the years, I’ve realized like, right, in psychoanalysis, like fantasy just means something that you’re imagining. And often it might be negative. So it’s kind of expanded that term for me, and when I think about what you’re talking about with a fantasy, they set their fee based on a fantasy. What I have seen is most therapists have very negative fantasies about the folks that we’re helping. Like we think that they are helpless, that they have no money, that they, you know, wouldn’t be willing to invest in themselves. Like I think often are fantasies of our clients, and I’m going to say this, this is a little bit harsh, but our fantasy is that they’re victims, right? That they can’t make empowered decisions or that they couldn’t solve problems. And so that’s the most common fantasy that I see therapists having about their clients that they’re unable or unwilling to pay X arbitrary amount that we’re thinking about. What have you noticed in terms of the nature of the fantasies that folks have about what people are willing to pay or able to pay? 

 

Erin [00:12:35] Yeah, completely. It’s a disempowering narrative. And what I found is if I go a little bit deeper because when one therapist realizes that they’re like, you know, totally, just why would I disempower, right? 

 

Linzy [00:12:46] Like that’s not what I’m going for. 

 

Erin [00:12:48] No, it is my gift to empower. What I find is if you just go a little bit deeper, it’s about if I take care of me, therapist, if I really look after me, the equation becomes someone else has to lose. It’s the codependent mantra of our society. And this goes deeper than just being a therapist, deeper than being a woman. I don’t, men experience codependent as well, but there’s this, there is this narrative of like, if I’m shining and I’m looking after me and I’m thriving. We know cognitively that if we’re thriving, we do better work. We can take care of ourselves and it is sustainable. And the alternative is something unsustainable, we know that. But it feels like to prioritize ourselves, it feels like someone else will lose. And it’s just the codependent battlecry. And this conditioning that’s in our culture, but also the conditioning we received at graduate school. I found it was like talking out of two sides of the mouth. So on the one side, it was like: you are not responsible for people, that’s disempowering. And on the other side of the mouth: you’re really liable, and if someone dies, like I’m taking it all the way to the end, if someone dies in your care, we’ll be held responsible if you didn’t do everything. So it’s this incredible bind that I think shows up right there where they’re basically like. But I’m responsible for the feelings and well-being of this person, even though if they were to think about it, they’re like, Wait, no, I’m not. 

 

Linzy [00:14:22] Mm hmm. Yeah. 

 

Erin [00:14:23] But it gets tied into survival. And the survival, I think fears are what that’s about, and this kind of. I found myself doing it when I sort of went along in my process and had decided to pull back from client work in order to focus on just supporting therapists in various ways. I heard myself saying out loud, I’m going to break the news to my clients. 

 

Linzy [00:14:46] Mm hmm. Yes. 

 

Erin [00:14:47] And this normal statement. But it was. It was this. It was this. Like, if I go after what I want and become skilled, then it’s going to hurt somebody. And so I actually think that that’s usually the deeper layer underneath the like, I’m disempowering through my fantasy is I’m going to be bad if I charge people what I need. 

 

Linzy [00:15:10] Yeah. And like with that, it’s kind of like a zero-sum game. I’m not sure if that’s the right language for it, but this idea that there’s a winner and a loser. Right? And also it makes me think about scarcity as though there’s, like, not enough. So if I have more, it must mean that somebody has less. Right? And all of these, kind of silent, implicit beliefs about, I mean almost like how energy and the universe works to, like really put it out there, that there’s idea that there’s like not enough for everybody. To me, it sounds like it is interwoven, unconsciously, into all of these, you know, we have these objections come up in different ways, but ultimately there is this belief that there’s not enough for all of us. We can’t all be okay at the same time, or we can’t all thrive at the same time. 

 

Erin [00:15:52] Yeah, exactly. And I think for me, when I think about the message I put out into the world with Therapist Expanded, with my podcast and my social media and all that, it is all about that mental health revolution, which I believe I have a hard time meeting anyone who is like, “Oh yeah, we need a mental health revolution”. Everybody believes that mental health could improve, the field, the system itself. But when I say “Well, but to me, mental health revolution is therapists living fully and freely”. Because we move ourselves further, we get well. We then, it takes our clients so much further. It’s fascinating what happens when we truly go for it. Yeah, we don’t have to say anything. The exchange with our clients changes. And that means we are less likely to work in broken systems when we really start taking care of ourselves. Less likely to accept insurance that we don’t want to accept. And the list goes on. And what happens is we uplevel ourselves and it changes the field in micro ways which turn into macro ways. 

 

Linzy [00:16:51] Hmmmm, I just had this fantasy of like therapist uprising and like just pushing insurance companies to pay more because I was also at the American Counseling Association. They had a conference in Toronto on Friday, so we went to check it out and it was like very interesting. I felt like I was going to America, but I was in Canada, because of the conversations that were happening and the folks that were there and the vibe. But a lot of people were talking a lot about reaching marginalized communities, you know, lifting people up, addressing all these gaps in care. And like all these things are really real. And sometimes I think that we only end up having to dissociate from these things in order to take care of ourselves where we’re like “but I can’t fix that, so I have to focus on me”. But when you say that, I’m like, right, But the next step is that if therapists were just unwilling to work for exploitive fees, insurance companies would have to change. 

 

Erin [00:17:38] Bingo, Mike. Drop of a century right there. They would because people wouldn’t accept it. The other thing is the beauty for me, and I’ll explain what I mean by Thrive Fee because it explains this. Social justice gets woven in there when we look even before insurance companies, we’re talking about the earlier conditioning. When I take on interns at our group practice, when we take them on, we find literally a workaround to pay them. We actually have to do a workaround so that we can pay them, so that their universities do not come down on them. That is insanity. Interns should not be slave labor. So that mindset of how we start having trouble really setting fees, for example, or doing certain things, remember, we were conditioned in that we were expected to work for free. Right there that excludes people who do not have as much financial means from entering this field. 

 

Linzy [00:18:33] Mm hmm. 

 

Erin [00:18:34] Because if you don’t have enough to work for free and to pay for your schooling, then you can’t even enter this field. So, that also, I believe, needs to change. But that’s an aside. So we’ll come back to that. Yeah, we were working for free and then we accept lower insurance rates perhaps. Yeah. And you were right, when we stop doing that, something changes. So when I talk about setting a Thrive Fee to put it into the most basic terms, the first thing I suggest people do is write out what you need per month on average to cover your basic needs. And basic needs will mean something a little different to everyone. But I’m going to just leave it there. Then the next thing you do is, this is not a financial numbers game yet, you write out what you need to thrive. Do you need to save for retirement? Do you need five vacations a year? I mean, no one can tell you what you need to thrive, you know. Do you need five massages a month? Whatever it is? Do you need money put away for when your kids get sick and write that all out, then apply a financial amount to it and try not to play a game. Try to be legit here, right? It’s really compelling to start fudging the numbers at this point. Try not to, make it real. Get a monthly amount then that will be what you need to take home. Once you average that out per month. For many people, it’s a little shocking but then you work out how many hours can you work in a week where you’re still thriving. 

 

Linzy [00:19:54] Yeah. 

 

Erin [00:19:55] So we’re talking Thrive again don’t watch the numbers. 

 

Linzy [00:19:57] Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

 

Erin [00:19:58] Legit. Can you work? Be real with yourself. This is the fun part, although it’s a little scary at this point. Then you’re taking what you need to take home and dividing it by the hours you will work. Taking into account that there are weeks you won’t be working, average in the middle. Here’s where you want to then bring in an accountant if you need some help, which is then on top of that you need to look at what are you putting away for taxes? 

 

Linzy [00:20:20] Yes. 

 

Erin [00:20:20] People talk about a different percentage based on where you are. What are your general expenses in your business? You need to look at that. Then you’re going to get a realistic amount of money and you’re going to divide what you need in a month by how many hours you’re going to work, and then you’re going to prepare for that. You might be pants-scrappingly scared. And that all those those four things I talked about will start to come in rapidly. So I’ve done this with a number of people now and myself, and those four things come back in. I can’t charge that, I’m not worthy, so different things might come in. So then you get your number and then you may have your reaction and you’ll start to hear your thinking. Go back to “But only if I have more trainings, I could I charge that”. “I don’t know if other people can charge that”. And people will pay. You’re armed with the knowledge that that’s going to come up, but that’s when you decide also in this calculation of: are you going to give back in some way, so will you have some pro bono thought? Will you have some sliding fee or will those be the spots that you actually accept that really low insurance for them? Then the rest you work out, it’s probably going to be somewhat private pay. 

 

Linzy [00:21:29] Yeah. 

 

Erin [00:21:30] Where people often feel confused about value is they’re like, “But what about my market?”. And here’s what I like to say that’s a little controversial: in our current world, in our current context, look at what you need to thrive first, because anything other than that will start to become an issue soon. Then figure out your market. Honestly, your local market probably would bear a higher cost than you’d think in the fantasy. But also the world can be your oyster on some level. But for Americans, I’m thinking of our American friends, some of them have constraints around the states. But your socioeconomic pocket does not denote where everyone is at, virtually, in your entire state. So, the Thrive Fee to me comes first and then you start working out your market and it’s amazing what you can do. But most people’s market actually seems to be able to bear it in their local area, turns out. But it’s built into this, we don’t have to not serve the underprivileged. We just have to make sure we’re not doing it from a broken-down place. 

 

Linzy [00:22:34] Yeah, well, and, you know, it makes me think about another word that has not come up today, but now comes to mind is, is martyrdom. Right? Like, I think we, we can really deeply identify with the folks that we serve. And I do think that there can actually be this belief that we should also be suffering. Right? That like, we should kind of be in it with them. And this is something that I’ve noticed and this is one of the reasons actually that I stopped doing complex trauma work is, I think you do become kind of mired in your niche. And it becomes, I think, it can really start to distort your worldview. That you forget that there’s like all these people for whom complex trauma is not an issue or for whom eating disorders are not an issue. Right. And like but we get so into like our world and we kind of over-identify with clients. Or commonly we’re in our niche because we have experienced or are experiencing the same things that our clients are experiencing. Right? So we’re kind of like sitting in the muck, with them. And I think there can be a kind of a badge of honor that we can wear sometimes of being in the muck and like struggling and that life is of struggle. But like that is vicarious trauma or that is actually your trauma that you need to be working out with your own therapist, not just like colluding in with, you know, with your clients that things don’t get better. And I do think about that dynamic, too, of like how sometimes we are kind of repeating or keeping ourselves stuck in our own healing work by setting up practices where we are exhausted, start to feel resentful, feel used, like maybe feel all the things that we felt our whole life. How there can be other complexity to that dynamic too. 

 

Erin [00:24:09] 100%. For me, the blanket of conditioning, it has a lot more nuance. Which that, that’s what we’re talking about, our personal conditioning then that’s how that compounds with our professional conditioning that often says, “Oh, you were always a pleaser and people always valued how you looked after their needs and not yours”. I mean, that helped you survive with all that amazing empathy that you have, kept you safe. There are a lot of us entering this field, myself included, who use our empathic gifts, who use our ability to please and smooth social situations and be really liked and maybe martyrs and codepending in order to survive as children. Absolutely. Our client is often us at some point in our life, of course, and so we can get so mired down. Absolutely. This week for my email list, I wrote this email and it was about how the most cherished lies within ourselves, we will fight to keep. And when we talk about therapist empowerment, therapist fulfillment, it’s all of these things people want to shout from the rooftops at first of like, “No, but I have to do what I’m doing. I can’t. What about all of my poor clients? Or what about?”. But it’s amazing because it doesn’t take long or a savvy bunch to realize, “Wait, is that an empowerment?”. But at first we have to come out of the gate with our most cherished lies and the idea of giving them up, the idea of realizing we are stuck in the muck and that’s not really helping us or the client. The idea of us only taking clients as far as we’ve gone, that’s all we never do. Yes. So at first therapists often fight this. I’ve seen it many times. There’s like a, they come out of the gate like, but what about, and it’s what you’re talking about the vicarious trauma, the burnout stuff, our own history, who we’ve been surrounded by. And then luckily therapists can often go, “Oh yeah, that’s my stuff”, or “That’s their stuff influencing me”. 

 

Linzy [00:26:14] Yes, I love that point too, of, we can only take our clients as far as we’ve gone. And I certainly felt and experienced that, you know, in my years doing therapy as I moved forward in my own life. Like you just have so much more that you can draw on when you’re doing work with people. It’s kind of like your sense of possibilities has expanded and therefore your sense of possibilities for your clients also expands. But until you actually step into that space yourself, you can’t authentically help anybody else get into that space. 

 

Erin [00:26:44] Yeah, it’s not even available psychically. I’ve seen this with training interns. I will ask a question of like, that was really an interesting intevention. Yeah, I wonder why they said this, and you didn’t, you didn’t go into that area and they’re like, “Ah, it didn’t even register for me”. 

 

Linzy [00:26:59] Like they didn’t even hear it. 

 

Erin [00:27:00] Yeah, it’s not available. And then when I dig a little deeper, sometimes they’ll be like, “Yeah, actually that’s an issue for me. I couldn’t touch it. I couldn’t go there. It isn’t something I can go in myself or feel”. So all of this happened unconsciously, it was just a closed door. 

 

Linzy [00:27:17] Yeah, a fraction of a second. Yeah. And I mean, I think about that obviously, with money. And, you know, when we have all this closeness around money and where we’re pegging our work to our sense of self-worth or value and all of these things that we’re talking about, it also means that we’re we’re missing opportunities for financial conversations with clients. Like I mean, therapists are terrified often to talk with their clients about money, and that shows up in fee settings. That’s when we actually have to do it, right? But like I found too, when I started doing this work, back when I had my clinical practice, suddenly I started being able to have financial conversations with my clients, which before I might have, just like again, it might have just glossed right by me. But then I was like “Oh no, we could actually like look at your bank statements together if you want, and like, be present with what’s happening”. And suddenly I had this intervention available to me that wasn’t available before I started really expanding myself into this space. So I also think about that financially, like there’s just this black box that happens when we have all this stuff around money. We also cannot help our clients at all with their stuff around money. 

 

Erin [00:28:15] I think about this episode I did my podcast about asking clients about their sex life, but I think even harder it’s asking clients about their financial life. And I think that’s another place where this like, “I’m doing something wrong” can come up for a therapist because if then we ask if the client says they have financial issues. And it’s like, “Oh, am I my part of that?”. 

 

Linzy [00:28:35] Yes. 

 

Erin [00:28:35] Or am I helping them to better like, we can go into all that. So, yeah, sex and money are often not directly asked about but… 

 

[00:28:45] Which is so interesting though that we take responsibility for that. And this is not a parallel and I’m going to talk this out and maybe it won’t make sense. But when I think about it, like if you ask your client about their sex life and they’re like, actually, my husband and I haven’t have sex in three years and it’s a huge issue for us, and ta dada dada. You’re not going to feel personally responsible for that, even though you could have been helping with that in therapy, you’re not going to be like, “Oh, it’s my fault” that they haven’t had sex. Yet, if you ask them about their financial life and they’re like, “Yeah, actually we racked up this credit card debt, we don’t know what to do. I’m like, not making enough money for my life”, then we can jump to like, “Oh, I should… Am I part of their financial hardship? like, should I be offering a sliding scale?”. Like I can totally feel and remember almost from my earlier therapist days, how I could have spiraled into that spot. And it’s so interesting that we take, like we have this over responsibility in that space, and yet logically we would know that we’re not responsible for like their sex life or their ability to do art or all these other aspects of their life. 

 

Erin [00:29:44] So it’s deeply conditioned into us that fantasy we were talking about earlier. But why do we look at clients like they’re broke and all these different things? I really believe that that was something we were taught. Is that, for me, the biggest change here or the biggest thing I think is an asset, and I don’t know where it came from and I’m so fricking grateful, is that I resisted looking at human beings as flawed or broken or diagnosable or any of that from the beginning. I did a Masters in the States where my counterparts in the states they diagnosed, and here in Canada, as a psychotherapist, we don’t, right? There I was trying to diagnose, a lot of abnormal psych. It was a much larger focus. But the whole time I was like, okay, to me and this might be controversial, but the DSM is just the myriad symptoms of how trauma and attachment distress play out. To me they’re not, I can’t look at a person like that. Because what I see is the sun that’s behind the clouds. I’m always looking for that and to show them the sun that’s behind the clouds. So I think it helped me in this way to not disempower. But I’m so very grateful for wherever that came from. However, I saw people and I look back on my childhood growing up in Parkdale, Toronto in the nineties. For anyone who knows that very difficult place to grow up as a child, very dangerous, very scary, you know, all because of a mental health crisis. They opened the doors of an inpatient psychiatric facility one day. 

 

Linzy [00:31:22] Just let everybody out with. 

 

Erin [00:31:25] Nowhere to go. And so I learned as a child like it, it was scary. But I was so grateful that I internalized the message of people who needed help but that they weren’t broken. I don’t know where that all came from, but it felt important to tell you that that has been the thing that’s helped me because all of these different things we’re talking about, I’ve experienced them too, the moments where a client says they’re struggling and I think about my fee and I’m like, okay, you aren’t here to rescue them. They will ask. Soothe yourself, love yourself. They need it.  

 

Linzy [00:32:00] Yes.So for folks who are listening and who are like. Okay. I want to take a little bit of this. Some of this has resonated. This has made sense. What would you suggest as like the first baby step that someone could take towards moving more into this like thrive fee space? 

 

Erin [00:32:16] I would say the very first step would be right down that second step I laid out, which is what do you need to thrive? And it isn’t about money at that moment. It is legitimately just about what do you need to thrive? And you can look at that in several ways. Sometimes people get sick a lot in this work. And well, you know their body and sometimes the subconscious saying like, I need more breaks. I need way more breaks. So think outside the box. And what do you need to thrive? Do you need a day? I’m going to project here, I’m going to talk about myself I guess, I need to meditate in the morning. I need time for that. That’s really important for me. So I’m not seeing a client first thing. I’m not seeing anyone first thing, right? What I need to thrive starts there, and it isn’t about, the mind will start to talk “But that’s not possible”, open up a different place in yourself, and just, just look at what you need to thrive. Whether it feels, quote unquote, logical or not. 

 

Erin [00:33:13] Another piece I would add is about, it’s hard for me to say all this, and I’d be remiss to not mention fulfillment. That what I focus on is fulfillment. And actually a lot of questions can be answered only from that place, I find, of knowing what would fulfill you and what will help you thrive. It’s really interesting, I have a quiz that I’d love to put in the show notes. And it’s interesting how the different ways people answer. Like some people need predictability and security, for example. They’re who I call vanilla, and they have a lot of different vanilla varieties, but that’s cool. They need a slow light, they need predictability. And so some aspects of fee setting and business building and fulfillment, they’re genuinely going to look a little different than the people who want really value creativity, freedom and independence. So that’s going to be a little different. So I recommend that for people and that actually I think might help people understand what do I need to thrive because the results of that are pretty tailored to the individual. There may be something there. 

 

Linzy [00:34:19] Yeah, and I love that too. And we will link to the quiz in the show notes so folks can jump over the show notes to get that quiz. I love that idea too, of identifying that we need different things. Right? Because I think that also within, you know, broader structures that we have of like capitalism, like what I find is that often when folks think about money, they think about, like luxury, right? Because like, that’s what we’re sold is like when you’re successful, you have a yacht and it’s like, in my own life, I hate boats. I don’t really like consumerism. So a yacht is not going to ever make my life happier. Like no matter how much money I have, a yacht will never be in my plans. And I use a yacht because it’s a bit like, you know, hyperbolic, but, you know, it’s really owning your own needs and what’s really going to, you know, as you say, bring fulfillment into your life. And it’s so personal. And I, I love the idea of really owning your own fulfillment because some of those things, too, like you say, you know, those voices that are going to come up, those voices often have such a lack of imagination and something like what you mentioned of like having a spot open every morning to meditate from an outside perspective anybody else can see is completely doable and you can completely set up a schedule like that. But we’re going to parts of us that get afraid. So love this suggestion of just like getting that all down and like, folks can go and grab your quiz and dig into what this means for them. That’s a great gift. Thank you, Erin, for sharing that with the audience who are listening today. 

 

Erin [00:35:41] My sincere pleasure. 

 

Linzy [00:35:42] So, Erin, if folks want to find you, connect with you. Where can they do that? 

 

Erin [00:35:48] Well, the quiz is kind of a choose your own adventure. And actually, part of what I suggested is that once you fill it out, it’ll give you your personal results to you, and then it’ll give you podcast episodes that are tailored like to what is going on for you. 

 

Linzy [00:36:03] Beautiful. 

 

Erin [00:36:04] So that I find is the best way, because we are a society right now that has a lot of information coming at us. So when I thought about that, I thought about like, how could I curate something that’s like, here, if you’re interested, it’s, it’s for you. So that would be my suggestion. But other people are really big podcasters. Therapist Expanded. You could just check it all out rather than waiting for it to come to you. Yeah, that’s another place as well. 

 

Linzy [00:36:28] Great. Awesome. So the quizz is there gateway into kind of personalized content from you or Therapist Expanded is your podcast. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Erin, for joining us today. 

 

Erin [00:36:39] It was a gift. Thank you. 

 

Linzy [00:36:53] I so appreciate my conversation with Erin today. And I also appreciate the energy and conviction that she has about this, the presence that she has around our rights to thrive as therapists and to be fulfilled and to create lives that serve us. It’s very much an embodied feeling from her, and I think so many of us would be well-served to take on even some more of this. And, you know, it’s exciting to think about how different our lives could look and how different practices could look and how different clinical work could look if more therapists really leaned into having fulfilling lives. There’s a lot of power there. So appreciate Erin coming on the podcast today. 

 

Linzy [00:37:36] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts & Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. Google reviews are also welcome. I got a Google Review the other day. I was like, “Oh yeah, Google reviews are also a thing”. Google reviews and Facebook reviews are also welcome. So I should mention that if you like me, are not an Apple user and so you cannot leave reviews on Apple Podcasts, which I’ve tried and could not figure it out, leaving me a review on Google just on like our profile or on our Facebook profile is also a great way to just get more eyes on the work that we do and help people know what you find helpful and what your experience with the podcast and, and the work that I do is. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Caitlin [00:00:05] One of my challenges lately had been like, after taxes, feeling like this job is really, can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

 

Linzy [00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with Money Skills for Therapists grad Caitlin Walsh. Caitlin is in LPC in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She specializes in working with women who have challenges with anxiety, relationships, self-esteem and, or grief. And today in our conversation, Caitlin and I got into the question of managing fear and kind of being with the fear of having made the decision to go off insurance and taking out-of-pocket clients only. So, Caitlin has made this decision a little while ago, and so now she’s in that point of like being in the decision that she’s made. And I think we can all relate with that, where you’ve made a decision and you’re like, Okay, now I’m in it. Now I have to tolerate it and manage it. And so we talked today about managing fear and what brought her to make that decision. And of course, because this is the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, we also got into the number side of really grounding in and understanding, you know, what actually needs to happen, the numbers behind what needs to happen and what the numbers mean as she actually starts to move more towards the expansive practice that she was envisioning when she made this change. Here’s my conversation with Caitlin Walsh. 

 

Linzy [00:02:20] So, Caitlyn, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Caitlin [00:02:23] Thank you. 

 

Linzy [00:02:24] So I appreciate you coming on to do a coaching episode with me today. So for folks listening, just to get a little bit of context, when did you finish up Money Skills for Therapists? 

 

Caitlin [00:02:35] I finished just a couple months ago, I think about three months ago. 

 

Linzy [00:02:39] Okay. Okay. And what prompted you to join Money Skills for Therapists. What brought you into the course in the first place? 

 

Caitlin [00:02:45] I had dropped back down to part-time when I had my second daughter. And the year after I did that, when I had to do my taxes, I had this challenge where I had a bunch of money due that I wasn’t prepared for, and I usually am pretty prepared and I thought I had done everything. And then because of some shifts with my partner’s job and then because I worked more that year and hadn’t, I guess hadn’t checked in enough with my accountant, I had like a really big tax bill and had to use my savings. And so. 

 

Linzy [00:03:27] Right. 

 

Caitlin [00:03:28] Just felt like I maybe had done something wrong or wanted more of a system to figure out, like if there were shifts and changes like that took off a bit. So yeah, that’s kind of what prompted me. 

 

Linzy [00:03:42] Okay. Yeah. You had, you ended up undersaving for taxes, even though, even though you thought you were doing well and are usually very on top of things because of those shifts, those changes that had happened. 

 

Caitlin [00:03:51] Right. And so I was just sort of frustrated with the process and just sort of thinking I needed a little bit more information and maybe a little more of like I started like a system that kind of made sense to me. 

 

Linzy [00:04:05] Awesome. Okay, so for our time together today for this coaching session, what would you like to focus on today? 

 

Caitlin [00:04:14] Well, I just made the shift from insurance panel to just private pay. Okay. And that’s been kind of a long process. I was with an insurance company that it took six months to get out of. 

 

Linzy [00:04:28] Oh, wow. Okay. 

 

Caitlin [00:04:30] I was preparing and preparing and preparing with my clients and we talked a lot about it. And so what I’m noticing now is I kept a bunch of my clients, but a lot of them have dropped from weekly or biweekly appointments down to, like, less than that. 

 

Linzy [00:04:48] Okay. 

 

Caitlin [00:04:48] And I I’m trying to stay as calm as I can about just the shifting and changing of that and needing to do more promotion and marketing and maybe that not being like my first skill set. 

 

Linzy [00:05:02] Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:05:05] Not my best skillset, so I’m trying. I’m doing my best. So just kind of noticing how that feels and. 

 

Linzy [00:05:13] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess my, my first question is, what are you noticing is happening with this transition and like, having some clients drop-down in frequency? So I’m hearing you’ve kept a lot of your clients, but they’re many. Is it many are seeing you less or some are seeing you less? Like what has happened to your numbers? 

 

Caitlin [00:05:28] Yeah, I’d say most, most are probably seeing me less. Like they want to stay. But, you know, they’re used to the insurance model. And so, yeah, I think that’s how they were managing that increase and was till like dropped down their sections. And then I have gotten some new, some new clients, but like less inquiries than I was used to, you know? So insurance companies are sending you quite a few. I had a really big insurance company that sent me a lot, so weekly I probably have at least a couple inquiries. And now I’d say maybe one a week or one every two weeks and not necessarily always the best fit. And so I’ve gotten some new people. I, I’ve worked super hard on my website. I also just recently now I had been referred to a person who does SEO, and she had to wait to work with them. And so just now they’re working on it. So I do think that, that will help. 

 

Linzy [00:06:23] Mm hmm. 

 

Caitlin [00:06:24] I do feel like I’ve put a lot of effort into the spaces that I can. 

 

Linzy [00:06:28] Yeah. Like, I’m hearing you definitely have been taking action around it and trying different solutions. 

 

Caitlin [00:06:33] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:06:34] So I am curious then, Caitlin, like, first of all, what’s been hardest about this transition for you or what is hardest I guess is actually probably more important. What is hardest? 

 

Caitlin [00:06:43] Yeah, I think just the drop in clients, like so I’m probably closer to 16, 12 to 16 a week and I’ve been closer probably to 8 to 10. 

 

Linzy [00:06:55] Right now you’re getting 8 to 10. 

 

Caitlin [00:06:57] Okay, So just holding. 

 

Linzy [00:07:00] Yes. 

 

Caitlin [00:07:00] Like reminding myself that like, it’ll be all right and it’ll get better and that I’m building. I think that for me right now has been the hardest to sort of continue to remind myself and not to feel like I made a mistake or, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:07:15] Yes. Ok, yeah. Cause there’s, there’s two pieces that I’m holding here. And we can, we can decide which way to go first. My first is curiosity about what that emotional experience, what’s happening for you emotionally around this transition and seeing your numbers drop? And my, my second question, of course, is financially, what’s happening with this transition? What road do you want to walk first together? 

 

Caitlin [00:07:35] I suppose we could do emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:07:38] So, yeah. So tell me some of the, the stories or emotions that I have been coming up with this transition. 

 

Caitlin [00:07:44] Yeah. Just kind of feeling. I suppose the biggest one is probably just fear. Fear, and then also, yeah, I think that’s probably the main one is, is like just fear around whether this is the right path or whether I’m going to be able to figure out how to do it. It’s a lot of it’s new. You know, I think one of the positives about being on insurance panels is you don’t really have to worry or at least I didn’t have to worry too much about getting clients. I guess that’s how they like, right? That’s the point of the benefit. 

 

Linzy [00:08:15] Yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:08:16] So it’s just new. I am committed to like, you know, I have a niche and like, it feels really right for me and I think that’s all great. But yeah, I think it’s just a fear that like, it’s not going to work or it’s not going to go or I’m not going to have enough. 

 

Linzy [00:08:31] And you had said earlier to like the fear that you made a mistake, like the thought that you’ve made a mistake. Okay. Okay. So yeah, so the fear that it’s not going to get better, like you’re not going to feel okay. And how is that fear been showing up for you? What has that been looking like? 

 

Caitlin [00:08:45] Just kind of ruminating about it. Maybe second guessing myself at time. I don’t know, needing to like, I meditate in the morning. So, like, be solid with that or trying to knowing that that’s helpful and so trying to use my, my coping skills that I lean towards. Yeah. So trying those things, it doesn’t always, you know, I still notice just sort of this like level of anxiety about it or no nervousness about it. So just kind of holding space for that. And just as I’m, I work on my own, I don’t have that many people to like knock over like, that many people to tell me, you know, positively reinforce my decisions. And so I do have some colleagues that I occasionally see, but nobody like intimately, every day. I’ve been reaching out a little bit more to some friends like, you know, when this email about this podcast came, I thought, well, maybe that could be helpful to give me a little perspective. So trying to put myself out there a little bit differently. 

 

Linzy [00:09:46] Yeah, like I’m hearing part of what makes the fear harder is that you’re isolated or at least alone. Yeah, right. It’s like you and the fear, during the work day. 

 

Caitlin [00:09:56] Right? Right. 

 

Linzy [00:09:57] Which, which does make it, of course, difficult to take perspective. Like I’m hearing you identifying things that you are missing, which is colleagues to reinforce. Like, yeah, yeah, it’s like that or it was like that for me. Or like, you’re making the right move. Remember we talked about da da da da da. I’m not hearing necessarily that you have like those daily or like easy supports to access to help you stay connected with why you made this decision or help you put it in perspective. 

 

Caitlin [00:10:22] Yeah, right. Correct. Seek it out online a little bit. Yeah. Okay. You know, have different like Facebook groups that are focused on like therapists and things like that. And like I said, I do have colleagues that are friends of mine, so I have started out a bit. But yeah, day to day it isn’t like face to face available. 

 

Linzy [00:10:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am curious, your colleagues, have they made similar decisions? 

 

Caitlin [00:10:46] Yeah. So I do have like actually I’m supposed to meet with them this Friday. Okay. Two women who’ve done very similar things, who are a little further along in their career than me, who I can bounce ideas off of and are wonderful supports. So I do have that and I do seek it out and I am also I have some ideas about getting that in sort of adjoining industries, you know, like people who have like naturopaths or like somebody who might have a very similar sort of client base, I am sort of putting myself out there in that way. 

 

Linzy [00:11:16] Ok. And when you say putting stuff out there, do you mean like you’re networking with adjoining folks like, yeah, as part of your strategy? Okay. Yes. Gotcha. So I am hearing that you are, you’re managing the fear with your coping mechanisms. You, you do have positive supports who maybe you don’t connect with often, but you are going to be connecting with soon. And they’re not just like positive supports of like go Caitlin but they’re also supportive of like, I’ve been there. This is what it was like for me, this is how long it took, which is awesome. So those are all very positive things that you have in place Now. I’m curious, Caitlin, why did you make this decision to switch from insurance to out-of-pocket? 

 

Caitlin [00:11:50] I was getting frustrated with the way that the insurance companies were trying to sort of dictate care. I had several situations where it took up a lot of time and energy. I was needing to like, justify certain treatment or amounts of treatment. I also have small children and wanted to really make a little bit more money and felt that like the reimbursement rates that I was getting, were really, really low from certain, certain companies. And so those two things kind of put together. I wanted to just spend a little less time with the kind of bureaucracy of the insurance companies and focus on, you know, my patients and patient care and grow into maybe doing making enough that maybe I could do some other things like, I don’t know, offering a course or, you know, some sort of similar like maybe what you do. I was inspired by you and other women I’ve seen that have, that seems to me like sort of diversify their offerings, or not just like 1 to 1 therapy. Yes. And I just feel like I have a lot to offer. So it felt like a good step towards that. I was like very unclear as to what that might mean, but sort of just allowing that to be there.  

 

Linzy [00:13:10] Sure. It’s like you’re, you’re opening up space for possibility. Even if you don’t have a clear idea. It’s still part of what I’m hearing. There’s just like reclaiming some bandwidth. 

 

Caitlin [00:13:17] Yeah. You know, when you’re in the insurance model, you kind of know. I felt sort of like I was in a box right in this amount of clients, and there wasn’t much room to just do there. And at least this. It does feel really scary. But there is also a lot of movement, you know, like there’s a lot of yes, my goal is to be in fear and allow for like the other end of it, like, oh, what if it really works well? I’ll go the other way. Like, Oh gosh.

 

Linzy [00:13:43] Yeah, yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:13:44] There’s more movement on the “Oh, it could really go well” as what you know. 

 

Linzy [00:13:48] Yes, absolutely. And that’s something and I’m trying to think of, you know, the right analogy for it and it’s not coming to mind. But yeah, before for you were drawing in the air, you know, this, this podcast so folks couldn’t see it but you were drawing in there a box, right? Like for you, the experience of, of the insurance work you were doing particularly felt like being in a box and boxes are limiting, but they’re also safe. 

 

Caitlin [00:14:08] Yeah, right. Yeah, right. 

 

Linzy [00:14:09] You know that the insurance companies just can keep giving you people and there’s going to be this amount of session fee is where you’re capped. And if you have this many clients, life is going to look like this. You know, small can be safe. What I’m hearing is your experience now of having stepped out of the box is it’s scary and your brain can quickly go to all of the things that might not work and all the ways that the risk might not pay off. But also with that risk, there’s this possibility and, and room for expansiveness that you didn’t have in the box. 

 

Caitlin [00:14:36] Yeah, right. 

 

Linzy [00:14:37] With that. Like when you think about, you having made that move, you don’t strike me as impulsive as a person. That’s not the vibe I’m getting. I don’t know you super well, but, you know, and I’m hearing it took you six months to get off this one panel, right? It’s not like you were like, I’m out, and two weeks later, you know. So this has been quite a process when you think about the transition that you’ve made, like what did it take for you to make that decision? What qualities or what did it take inside of you for you to, to take that leap and step out of that safety you had? 

 

Caitlin [00:15:06] Yeah, I have come. I’ve realized that I’ve come to all these steps in my career where I knew I needed to shift. I would wait and have to keep reminding myself that it’s never going to feel comfortable. I think I’ll wait a little bit and want it to be comfortable until I was finally ready. And then something happens and I would, I would just do it right? Where I got a call from my professor, the first job I got that was like in private practice when I had no idea what I was doing a long time ago. It was like this opportunity and my daughter was literally two weeks old, my first daughter too.  

 

Linzy [00:15:50] Oh gosh. 

 

Caitlin [00:15:50] So I, I was mess. 

 

Linzy [00:15:51] Oh, yeah, Oh yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:15:53] Sleeping And yes, even in that sleep-deprived state, knew I had to do it because like, it was such an opportunity. Right. But so uncomfortable. So I remember that and I just, I just kept remembering like, okay, I know I need to do this right. It’s like the next step and it’s not going to be comfortable. 

 

Linzy [00:16:12] Right? And what did it take for you to make that uncomfortable step or what allowed you to take that step maybe? 

 

Caitlin [00:16:18] One thing that happened, my mom died. And part of that, you know, it’s like the worst thing I could ever imagine happening in my life. 

 

Linzy [00:16:18] Absolutely yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:16:18] Besides something happening to my children. 

 

Linzy [00:16:27] Yes. My brain also goes there immediately. Yes. 

 

Caitlin [00:16:29] Right. I think one of the things about that is it, it obviously gives you perspective on things in this like insane way. And so after that happened, I obviously couldn’t do it right then. Like that was like right in the middle, right before COVID and then COVID. So all of that, I was just like processing, processing, like recalibrating, trying to figure out what I was doing. And then like once I sort of feel like I came up for air. So then my daughter also was a little bit older. It wasn’t so intense. I like came up for air. And then I was like, okay, like this is never going to feel comfortable. You know, I had this perspective with my mom passing away and like, sort of had this idea of like, you got to just go for it. Like not allowing the fear to kind of drive me. Even though it still comes back. You know, I kind of like, I don’t know, talk it down or something. But I do think that, that perspective of like you only get one shot at life. And at least for me, I lead kind of heart centered, you know, even if it’s a theory or I’m not sure about it. I’m not sure what it’s going to look like, but I am sure that, like, I have to move. So, yes, I’m willing to, if something’s not working, obviously I’m willing to like then shift. So I think that perspective also, I think I used to be really concerned, much more concerned like everything being like sort of perfect. And now I’m totally okay with things being like, good enough. 

 

Linzy [00:18:07] Yes. Okay. Okay. So I’m curious, like telling that story, what’s happening in your body? Like what emotions go with that story for you. 

 

Caitlin [00:18:13] Of me, like being able to shift? 

 

Linzy [00:18:15] Yeah. 

 

Caitlin [00:18:16] I do notice more energy. And, like, I do notice I wouldn’t say excitement, but, like, there is more movement or like, you’re. 

 

Linzy [00:18:24] Animated. 

 

Caitlin [00:18:25] Yeah, more flow, like. Yeah. So I guess just more energy, a higher, maybe more positive, more like a hopeful, things like that. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:18:34] Yeah. Yeah. And there’s two phrases that came to mind for me. One is something that I used to say a lot myself. I feel like when I was a teenager, I don’t know if I made it up. I probably didn’t. But it was. Life is for the living. 

 

Caitlin [00:18:47] Sure. 

 

Linzy [00:18:48] Right. Like, I think when we have perfectionistic tendencies or like, you know, when we have been in a safe space and we have to think about taking a step or taking a risk, it’s like it feels scary, but it’s like, isn’t that what life is about? Like, aren’t we supposed to be living life and, you know, talking about your mom and losing your mom, like I know for me, when I have experiences with mortality close to me, like my mind always goes to that. Like, it’s always that chance to, like, reassess your life and like, am I living the life I want? Like if that was my funeral in two weeks, would I be like, Yep, people are going to have great things to say because I’m really living my true, authentic life, whatever that means, right? So that comes to mind. But the second thing that I think of is a phrase that was an email subject line from a feminist marketer that I get emails from. Kelly Diels to give credit where credit is due, which is “Fear is rocket fuel”. 

 

Linzy [00:19:34] Right. And it’s making me think about your fear right now. And it’s like when we take risks and we are making big moves. Fear is part of the picture. But I do wonder how you could be framing fear or how you can be using this fear to get you where you want to go because you’ve stepped out of this box. What I’m hearing is you are 8 to 10 a week, right? You’re not you don’t have 2 clients a week. 

 

Caitlin [00:19:57] No, right. 

 

Linzy [00:19:58] You’ve retained 8 to 10 a week out of the 12 to 16. So you’re kind of like half to like three-quarters of where you were before. Maybe more than half, actually. You’re at more than a half to three-quarters of where you were before. But there’s still this gap of like where you actually want to be, which is like, which is a good question. Where do you want to be? What is the amount of sessions you’re looking for per week at this out-of-pocket rate? 

 

Caitlin [00:20:19] I feel really good at like 16. 

 

Linzy [00:20:22] Okay, So 16 is your sweet spot. 

 

Caitlin [00:20:24] Yeah, I would do like 16 to 18 would feel good. I tend to sort of flow with the natural dip down in summer. So in the summer I usually see closer to 12 and that’s fine. 

 

Linzy [00:20:37] Yeah, it is nice to be able to flow with the seasons. 

 

Caitlin [00:20:39] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:20:39] Yeah, yeah. And who wants to work in the summer when you could be at the park? Okay, So, so closer to 12 in summer. So to dig into the numbers side of this, Caitlin, because I’d love to get grounded in what numbers we’re actually talking about here. Because that also helps us understand the risk. What was your fee when you were on insurance? Like, how much were you bringing in a week with the 12 to 16 clients that you used to see on insurance? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:04] So it was like 120 or so. 

 

Linzy [00:21:07] 120. Okay. 

 

Caitlin [00:21:08] It’s kind of like the average. 

 

Linzy [00:21:09] So 120, and could we say your average was like 14 sessions a week between that 12 to 16? Is that accurate? Okay. So times 14 times 4.33. This is rough math. We know there’s the summer dips and everything, so it’s kind of like 7200 a month of revenue. Does that sound about right for your insurance practice? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:29] Yeah. Give or take. 

 

Linzy [00:21:30] Does that seem a little high or low? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:31] It seems a little high.  

 

Linzy [00:21:33] A little high? Okay. Okay. So maybe 7000 a month? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:35] Yeah. Yeah, maybe. 

 

Linzy [00:21:37] Let’s say 7000 a month. So tell me, what is your out-of-pocket rate? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:40] 150. 

 

Linzy [00:21:42] 150? Okay. 

 

Caitlin [00:21:42] Little bit of a range, but that’s the average. 

 

Linzy [00:21:44] Average is 150. Okay, So 150 then just to get a sense of where we are compared to where you were right now, you’re doing 150 and you’re seeing like nine clients a week? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:54] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:21:54] Does that sound about right? 8 to 10, we’ll say nine? 

 

Caitlin [00:21:57] Yeah. 9 

 

Linzy [00:22:00] So right now you’re at like 5800 a month. So there’s like a 1200-dollar shortfall. How many clients would it take you at 150 an hour to make up that gap? It’s a 1200-dollar gap. Can you do the math on that for me? Do you have a calculator? 

 

Caitlin [00:22:15] So eight. 

 

Linzy [00:22:17] So that’s eight sessions a month. So. How many clients would that be for you? If it’s eight sessions a month. 

 

Caitlin [00:22:23] Maybe four. 

 

Linzy [00:22:24] Okay. So four clients who are coming twice a month each, bi-weekly clients. 

 

Caitlin [00:22:28] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:22:29] Okay. Okay. So four clients. So if you notice that the gap we’re talking about is finding four more clients who come bi-weekly or I will enter the possibility that it could also be two weekly clients. 

 

Caitlin [00:22:43] Right, sure. 

 

Linzy [00:22:44] If you can target those folks who are like, oh, 150 an hour, pfff! My fee used to be 175 and my clients, like, couldn’t remember my fee, like it was like so unimportant to them. They were like, What is your fee? Well, 250, 100. Like it, yeah. So it could also be two weekly clients. What do you notice in your body thinking about having to get, like, either those four biweekly clients or like two more weekly clients would, would fill that gap, getting you back up to where you used to be? 

 

Caitlin [00:23:11] Yeah, it doesn’t seem like that. Like that big of a jump or that hard.

 

Linzy [00:23:16] Right. I was gonna say, like, how hard? How hard is that or how scary is that to find two or four more clients? Okay. 

 

Caitlin [00:23:24] Yeah. Doesn’t feel that hard.  

 

Linzy [00:23:27] Okay. So that’s helpful information to notice, right? Like the part of you, that’s been in fear. Is that part able to take in information that, what we’re talking about right now, just to get you where you were? I know it’s not where you ultimately want to be. But to get you back up to the status quo, we’re talking about 2 to 4 clients. Can the fear part of you, like take in that information? 

 

Caitlin [00:23:44] Yeah. That feels comforting or attainable. 

 

Linzy [00:23:47] Yeah. Okay. Comforting and attainable. Those are nice words. 

 

Caitlin [00:23:50] Yeah. Yeah, 

 

Linzy [00:23:52] Those are very doable words. In terms of where you will be like, did you pick this number based on kind of your family’s financial need? Or like, do you know where this number is going to get you once you do fill up to 16 again? 

 

Caitlin [00:24:03] Yeah, I worked all that out when I did your class. I also was taking into account, I did quite a bit of research on like what everybody around here, I live in the Midwest, was charging and so trying to keep it within. And then also what I was charging my clients to be able to scale up. So I did sort of take all of that into account. 

 

Linzy [00:24:26] Okay. Yeah. When you, when you said this, which which I love to hear, I love that there was math involved. That always makes me happy. So it’s a good grounded decision. So what I’m seeing here is like when you get up to 16 clients a month and I’m using rounded numbers here, just for simplicity. We’d be talking about like $10,000 a month revenue. Right?

 

Caitlin [00:24:43] That was like my, for some reasons I like that number and it just feels yeah, it felt like, okay, that’s different and like a good goal and like, yes, something to reach for and like after taxes still feels like, even though this job can be really challenging like that still is like solid paycheck. 

 

Linzy [00:25:02] Yes. Yes. It’s a paycheck that you’re like this, this compensates.

 

Caitlin [00:25:06] Okay. Yeah. But you know, I would yeah. My next goal would be like 20 grand more or something like that. So kind of leading up, feels like an attainable goal for now. That, that also makes me feel. One of my challenges lately had had been like after taxes, feeling like this job is really it can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way like, yes, I have to pay for all of my own stuff because I’m private, you know. So this can kind of eek away at like your sense of, is this worth it? 

 

Linzy [00:25:41] Absolutely. Yeah. And I do think, too, there is something about being well compensated for our work that also has the reverse effect. Like let’s you hold yourself higher, like have more kind of esteem of like I’m a professional. I get paid like a professional. I do work like a professional. I change lives. Like I, there’s that positive effect as well of giving yourself the appropriate raise. 

 

Caitlin [00:26:03] It’s like it’s not light-hearted work, right? It’s not like, you know, like. No. 

 

Linzy [00:26:08] Yes. No, I always thought that with this kind of work, there could be a lot of laughter. But it was in contrast to, like, all this darkness that’s also in the room with us, you know, depending on the work that you’re doing. So. Okay. So what I’m hearing then, is for you to get up to that 7000, we’re looking at 2 to 4 clients. And then for you to get up to that ten, you know, 10,000 revenue and we’re talking revenue here, not paycheck for folks listening. That 10,000 revenue, we would be looking at going up like some around six, 6 to 8 clients. That’s like that’s your level up that’s a level up amount that you’ve chosen. 

 

Caitlin [00:26:41] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:26:41] Right. And so when you think about that, that like that next step after this 2 to 4. 2 to 4 gets you back to baseline. The next step after that is a level-up step. How can you think about that in a way that will be motivating? Like I’m thinking of this like “fear as jet fuel” metaphor, which I don’t know if it’s like totally if that connects for you, that idea, but it’s like, how, how can we use this energy as interpret it positively or make it positive rather than let that fear spiral into all the negative, you’re going to live in a box kind of thoughts. 

 

Caitlin [00:27:12] Right? I guess I feel a little more ease around it when I give myself a little bit of grace and, like appropriate expectation in terms of time. And just how much time it might take. So, you know, even thinking like, can I give myself a year? Like to make all that happen and not get that worried in the second month that it isn’t happening? 

 

Linzy [00:27:33] Yes. 

 

Caitlin [00:27:35] That gives me a little bit of ease. And I mean, honestly, because of your course, I have quite a bit in savings and my tax situation for this year is much more… Like it’s set, you know, in my account. And then I have all my little like accounts for profit first and all that stuff. 

 

Linzy [00:27:54] Hmmm, beautiful. 

 

Caitlin [00:27:55] I just looked at it yesterday. And so even though like this week in particular, I have quite, quite a few less clients that I’m used to, you know, it’s like I still have all that money that I have saved. And I do have like, the backup systems. 

 

Linzy [00:28:09] Yes, right. 

 

Caitlin [00:28:10] And like, I like it that, you know, even if I do have a dip in revenue, like because of the calculators and the profit first stuff, like I would be appropriately still saving the amount of taxes. It’s not, you know, it can shift. And I, I know in my head like no, no, like I know how much to save now because I did all that backup work. 

 

Linzy [00:28:32] Yeah. You’ve done all that foundational work. 

 

Caitlin [00:28:34] Right. And so that kind of, I keep trying to remember that as well. And like, you know, that is helpful to use as, as fuel. And I, you know, just to keep sort of reassuring and reminding myself that is helpful. So yeah, so when I give myself more time frame and try to shift out of that, like, oh, this has to be working right now. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:28:56] Yes, yeah. And this is like what I like to call big-picture thinking, right? Like you have, you have actually built the systems. You’ve done the work, that you actually do have stability in your practice, right? Like you have actually built out those foundations. So taxes are still there. Money is still there to get paid, like you’re still being well compensated even while making shifts. Right. You’re not writing this kind of like like knuckle biter, knuckle biter? That’s not the right, white knuckle. Don’t bite your knuckles! Nail biter, kind of like roller coaster situation, right? So you have given yourself that stability. And with stability can come expansiveness, right? Because you put those roots in. 

 

Caitlin [00:29:32] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:29:32] You know, to to use a tree metaphor, it’s like you’ve put roots in. You have that solidity. So now you actually have the foundation to reach and you’re reaching. Right. And I’m hearing that sometimes reaching is scary. Yeah, but I’m curious like, what else is reaching besides scary for you? 

 

Caitlin [00:29:49] I guess like growth and possibility and, you know, moving into the next level of my career and feeling grounded and solid in that. And competent, I guess that is one positive, and I mean this in the most humble way, but I work really hard at being a good therapist. And, you know, work really hard at staying in a good space myself in terms of my health and my mental health. And so I know that to be true as well. And so that’s also part of my foundation. So I’m I know that I’m good at my job and I’m certainly always working on, you know, things. But I do know that, like, I’m committed to it and I, I take it really seriously and, you know, so that’s not going to change. 

 

Linzy [00:30:34] Yes. 

 

Caitlin [00:30:34] Yeah. That like knowing my worth and my value is also in again, like, I don’t, I’m not like tooting my own horn, but just like I put a lot of work in and like, I can, you know, and I know that. 

 

Linzy [00:30:48] Mm hmm. Yes, I think you can toot your own horn, just in here. With job interviews, my dad always used to be like, “this is your chance to toot your own horn” and get to like and I’m to say the same thing in this conversation. And like, as you’re thinking about investing in yourself, right? Like, you are allowed to be connected with what you’ve accomplished and your competency and your commitment to being really good at what you do. I think that’s actually extremely important for us to be connected with and to own it. Because that makes this a very logical move that you’ve made. Yeah, in fact, I would say this is actually, you probably could have set your fee higher. You haven’t, you’re not doing something that doesn’t completely make sense actually, within the context of all the work you’ve done in your career and everything you’ve established. 

 

Caitlin [00:31:28] Right? Right. Yeah, I’ve thought of that too. 

 

Linzy [00:31:31] So that’s later. That’s later. So Caitlin, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you taking away from our conversation today? 

 

Caitlin [00:31:40] I think it’s helpful to just kind of ground myself in, you know, you’re always good at like, coming back to like, the numbers and like, just kind of be really grounded in like, well, you know, it’s 2 clients or 4 clients. 

 

Linzy [00:31:51]  Yeah, like, what are we actually talking about? 

 

Caitlin [00:31:53] You know, like, not that crazy. So that’s like really helpful because although I’m fine with numbers, it’s not necessarily always where I go, you know. I don’t know. It’s just like, well, what’s actually the core of it. Right? Yes. Help me get better at that or I’m not scared of it in any way. So that’s good to remember. And then also, I like that idea of fear, just how you orient towards the fear. I think the fear is really natural. And coming from like a mindfulness space, like, can I just walk a minute? Can I sit with it and can it be like the fuel? I’m not going to let it spiral me into like, I can’t do this or I’m not worth it or all that. Well, you know, the negative self-talk that I think all of us can have challenges with at times, both of those things. So using the fear as like maybe the fuel and also like just you kind of providing space or reiterating that like the time frame makes sense or like all the decisions I’ve made, you know, at least make sense to you. 

 

Linzy [00:32:54] Absolutely. 

 

Caitlin [00:32:54] And hearing that back is helpful too. 

 

Linzy [00:32:57] Yeah. And something that I did really notice too, as well. First of all, when you reconnected with why you made this decision, your body language really changed. 

 

Caitlin [00:33:04] Yeah, right. 

 

Linzy [00:33:04] You went from kind of this more like tight to like expressive arms moving, talking with your hands. So that’s one thing that I noticed. And then the second thing that I noticed is when you zoomed out your timeline, when you started talking about a year rather than now, there was also this calm that came over you. 

 

Caitlin [00:33:22] Yeah, right. 

 

Linzy [00:33:23] And I think that that’s really important. And maybe the timeline doesn’t have to be a year. Maybe it’s six months, maybe it’s four months, maybe it’s seven, right? But that I also noticed like this, like grounding that happened when you let yourself zoom out and didn’t have to make it something that happens immediately. Because what I’m hearing from you, at least as far as I understand, financially it doesn’t have to happen right away. It’s not as though your family’s in financial crisis and you’re trying to replace your income and your partner’s income and big medical bills. Like, you know, there are times when it really is like, “oh shit, like, right now I need to, like, make $20,000 appear”. That’s not your situation at this moment, which means you do have that space to like make those connections with colleagues, network. Find the ways to like, really find your people. And what you’re going to build over the next year will last for decades. 

 

Caitlin [00:34:09] Yeah, right. 

 

Linzy [00:34:10] Even if it doesn’t happen tomorrow, you’re building something that is, has longevity. 

 

Caitlin [00:34:15] Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:34:15] As you figure each thing out. 

 

Caitlin [00:34:16] Right? Exactly. 

 

Linzy [00:34:18] So, Caitlin, what is your next step coming out of our conversation today? 

 

Caitlin [00:34:22] I think I’m going to try to just keep all of those things in mind and remember the numbers and just keep working on my networking and keep working on all the things I have kind of in play. I’m doing little social media stuff, which is not my strong suit. 

 

Linzy [00:34:42] Same here. Same here. 

 

Caitlin [00:34:43] Now, you know, I’m just kind of trying to remember my, my confidence and, and that coming from me and not just like the amount of clients that I have right now. Wonderful. 

 

Linzy [00:34:55] Thank you for coming on the podcast today. 

 

Caitlin [00:34:56] Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate your help and just the opportunity. 

 

Linzy [00:35:13] In the conversation with Caitlin, the fear obviously was a big part of it at the beginning and something that I didn’t say during the recording, but I did say to Caitlin afterwards as we chatted and finished up our time together is that it is scary, like it is scary to do these things. It is scary to take a risk on yourself. It is scary to step out of something that is safe and known into something that is unknown. As we talked about that metaphor of stepping outside of the box, you know, the box, you know, in some, for some folks, that box is being uninsurance or it’s working in a certain place or even seeing a certain type of client. That is something that we know and it’s something that at a certain point becomes consistent and reliable. But when we outgrow those boxes and when for whatever reason, we decide to step outside of it, whether that’s financial, whether it’s emotional, whether it’s we need a change that is scary. Right? And so I don’t think the fear goes away. And I think the fear is, is healthy. And obviously the fears are our nervous system, you know, trying to keep us safe. But it’s really learning how to manage and be with that fear that makes all the difference. We don’t want to make decisions driven out of fear. That’s not wise. And so it’s you know, as we’re talking with Caitlin, how can you shift that experience of fear to something else? Right? If if fear is fuel, then fear can also become excitement. It can be motivation. And excitement and motivation can move us into making moves that will really make a difference. And in Caitlin’s case, moves like reaching out to people, networking, putting herself out there that will help her right clients find her. Those moves are what’s going to make all the difference. And we can use that energy to make those strategic moves. Once we start moving out of kind of the, the scary stories that fear wants to tell us and just realize like, yeah, I’m energized. I’m like doing something here and I’m going to make the moves I need to make to make this decision a good one and to make it pay off. So I’m very excited for Caitlin and what’s coming in her future. Having taken this step in her practice. 

 

Linzy [00:37:15] You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts. You’re also welcome to jump over to Google, if, like me, you were not an Apple user or our Facebook page to leave a review of your experience with the podcast, what you like about it, you can share about what your favorite episode or conversation was. It’s a great way for other therapists who would benefit from these conversations to find us. Thanks for listening today.