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Financial Strategies for Private Practice Owners with Andrew Riesen

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 “If it looks like a business expense, smells like one, and feels like one, run it through your business bank account. Whether it’s accounting software you have on the other side or a spreadsheet, all of that is great for wherever you might be, let your account or the individual that you’re working with at the end of the year help you understand whether or not this might be a write-off, but take advantage, run those expenses through, and you can always adjust them out if it turns out that it’s not a deduction or a tax write-off at the end of the year.”

~Andrew Riesen

Meet Andrew Riesen

Andrew Riesen is the CEO and co-founder of Heard, the financial back-office for therapists. Prior to Heard, Andrew worked at PwC where he helped build an internal software incubator and co-founded a sales tax solution for small businesses.

In this Episode...

Have you wondered about when to take your business to the next level or when it’s worth it in the US to become an S-corp? Linzy talks with Andrew Riesen of Heard, an all-in-one financial solution for therapists in private practice. They discuss a vital step all private practice owners should take when it comes to their business and how to take that step.

Andrew talks specifically about what it looks like to become an S-corp and the pros and cons of making that decision. Linzy and Andrew dig into specific ballpark numbers that might indicate it’s time to consider whether it’s worth it to make a change in your business. Be sure to tune in to hear the practical tips for private practice owners.

Connect with Andrew

Find tools and resources from Andrew and his team at: joinheard.com or follow them @joinheardinc 

Want to work with Linzy?

Check out Linzy’s masterclass, The 4 Step Framework to Getting Your Business Finances Totally in Order, where you’ll learn the framework that has helped hundreds of therapists go from money confusion and shame to calm and confidence, as well as the three biggest financial mistakes that therapists make.

At the end, you’ll be invited to join Money Skills for Therapists and get Linzy’s support in getting your finances finally working for you. Click here to find a Masterclass time that works for you!

Episode Transcript

Andrew [00:00:01] If it looks like a business expense, smells like one, and feels like one, run it through your business bank account, whether it’s, you know, accounting software that you have on the other side or a spreadsheet, all of that is great for wherever you might be. Let your accountant or the individual that you’re working with at the end of the year help you understand whether or not this might be a write-off, but take advantage, run those expenses through and you can always adjust them out if it turns out that it’s not a deduction or a tax write-off at the end of the year. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Allow. And welcome back to the podcast. So today we have a conversation with Andrew Riesen. Andrew is the CEO and co-founder of Heard, which is an accounting bookkeeping software company for therapists. Prior to our conversation today, you will hear me realizing this. I didn’t realize that they had actually built their own software to make it easy for therapists to have their financial information presented to them and to share information with their team. So cool. It’s always exciting to see folks from other professions stepping up to help therapists specifically and the ways that we relate to money. So Andrew and I today get into two things. First of all, we dig into some of those best practices to get started. When you are starting your private practice and setting up your finances. And they do apply to if you’ve already been in practice for a while. So we get into a key thing that you want to have in place to have clarity with your private practice finances. And then we dig into the SCorp question. So for Canadians listening, I know SCorps are an American thing, but in the conversation about SCorp status, we really get into some of the ways to think through making decisions about your business, about your business status, how to work well with an accountant. So we address this question of when to think about becoming an SCorp for American therapists. What are some of the things that go into that decision and got into it in quite a bit of detail today. Lots of food for thought. So if you are considering switching to SCorp status, wondering if that might apply to you, and you’re an American therapist. Or you’re a Canadian therapist and you would just be interested in learning more about how do accountants’ brains work, how do we work well with accountants, how do we know if we have somebody who is a good fit to be making these collaborative decisions? There’s going to be lots in this episode today. Here is my conversation with Andrew Riesen. So, Andrew, welcome to the podcast. 

Andrew [00:03:04] Thank you for having me, Linzy. I’m very excited to be here. 

Linzy [00:03:06] Yes. So you are from Heard Accounting, which is I’m going to say Heard is a name that I started hearing like maybe six months ago, maybe a year ago, of like therapists coming into my course or just like in the space working with you folks. So folks who don’t know who you are. Can you tell us a little bit about Heard accounting? 

Andrew [00:03:25] Yeah, absolutely. So Heard is a software and services business. And the way that I would describe us very quickly in a sentence is we are the accounting and compliance solution for therapists that are operating an independent practice. And what that means is we have built software that makes it really easy to set up a new business, track your income and expenses, figure out how to pay yourself on a monthly basis, handle things like quarterly taxes and annual taxes, and we recently launched payroll embedded in our service as well. And the benefit of working with us is, of course, you have a whole slew of accountants on the back end that are able to support you throughout the year, whether it’s a tax advisory question or a bookkeeping-oriented question or a tax planning question. 

Linzy [00:04:14] Okay. I did not know this. This is illuminating for me. So. So you folks actually have a specific software that you’ve created for therapists or like, tell me more about that, that piece, the software. 

Andrew [00:04:24] Yeah, exactly. So we built so basically like the quick tldr here is we decided that we wanted to rebuild our own accounting software after in the early days setting up a bunch of folks on QuickBooks and quickly learning that QuickBooks is an overly cumbersome, very challenging piece of software to use. 

Linzy [00:04:48] Yes. 

Andrew [00:04:49] Challenging enough for accountants to use as-is. And so when the clinicians jumped in there, they were like too much going on, don’t know what to do, don’t know how to process. And so we decided that we were going to rebuild the accounting software. And so getting ultra nerdy here, we rebuilt the kind of general ledger, income statement, the balance sheet, profit and loss, all of the fun stuff that is in the reporting, to really be able to drive more specific insights to therapists to simplify the way that they use it and to just start building a more kind of industry-specific solution for them that’s going to be tailor-fit to their needs at a better price. 

Linzy [00:05:27] Okay. Okay. You took my ten-year project off my plate, so I maybe I don’t have to do that now. 

Andrew [00:05:31] Well, we can collaborate. 

Linzy [00:05:32] Which is great. Which is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a few years, I’ve been like, one day I’ll make software that’s not QuickBooks, but that’s also not a spreadsheet that, like, speaks to therapists because it’s true. Like therapists look at QuickBooks, many therapists, certainly folks who are listening this podcast, I’m sure can relate. They look at QuickBooks and their brains explode because as you say, it is cumbersome, right? Like it’s full-suite accounting software. It’s like all the bells, all the whistles, and therapists need so few of the bells and none of the whistles for what we do. But it is a real barrier to folks getting clarity on their numbers when they’re trying to use QuickBooks and it’s just not clicking for them. So I’m excited to hear you folks have tackled that, that problem. 

Andrew [00:06:10] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:10] So if, thinking about like for folks listening, then, you know, some of the people listening might be closer to the beginning of their practices, like either like pre-practice or like just starting out, which like, by the way, people who are listening in that situation, I’m very happy you’re here. These are great things to think about at the beginning, like you’re saving yourself a lot of pain by thinking about like your systems and your relationship with money early. So from an accountant perspective, for those folks who are listening or people who are even just like a little bit of the ways in, but they’re like, I don’t think this is it. What are some of the best practices for getting set up with your private practice finances? 

Andrew [00:06:48] Yeah, and I’ll talk about this on a spectrum because I think everybody has a different place where they’re starting. And there’s also probably folks that are a little bit later on in practice that may be looking to evolve their practice or processes as well. From a financial standpoint, much of what you help them with as well. But really when you are getting started, there’s a couple of simple things that I would broadly recommend you taking into consideration, and many of them will be oriented around American practices, acknowledging your Canadian audience as well. But the first thing that I would say is a separation of church and state financially between your business and your personal. So whether you are a sole proprietor or whether you’ve set up a formal business entity to where legally you would want to have that separation of church and state to have that liability protection. Separating your personal finances from your business is incredibly important. And so let’s say that I am a clinician, I work a W2 job, I work in a hospital, and I’ve decided to just take some clients on on the side. And so I’m starting to see five clients on the side. And so I’m simply a sole proprietor in the eyes of the IRS. I haven’t set up a business entity, I haven’t done any of that fun stuff to really build structure around the practice. My recommendation: just set up a separate checking account within your personal checking account, set up a separate savings account. And I know Linzy goes deeper into the profit first methodology, which is definitely something to explore, but by doing that, you’ll be able to start tracking that income that’s coming in from your practice or your self-employment in one place. You’ll be able to centralize those expenses. So things like simple practice, your continuing education, all of your malpractice insurance, all that good stuff, and then on a monthly basis or whatever cadence is appropriate for you, setting aside money to pay into taxes throughout the year. In America, it’s on a quarterly basis. And so paying into taxes throughout the year is going to be really helpful. The reason that separating personal and business is really helpful is then when you get to the end of the year, you’re not going to be scrambling through your drawers to figure out where those receipts are. And my recommendation around this specifically is like, if it looks like a business expense, smells like one, and feels like one, run it through your business bank account, whether it’s, you know, accounting software that you have on the side or a spreadsheet, all of that is great for wherever you might be. Let your accountant or let the individual that you’re working with at the end of the year help you understand whether or not this might be a write-off, but take advantage, run those expenses through and you can always adjust them out if it turns out that it’s not a deduction or a tax write-off at the end of the year. And so that would be my broad, sweeping recommendation as to how to really kind of set up that financial infrastructure at the beginning. 

Linzy [00:09:24] Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, it’s something that I talk about when I talk about this too, is like if that’s literally the only thing you do, it’s still going to get you so far because as you say, like I think so many folks listening can relate to that experience of like, it’s the end of the year and you’re like, Oh shit. And then you have to gather things from everywhere. And like for people who have already anxiety and stress around money, all that does is reinforce the stressful, awful experience around money, because now you are trying to basically do like an archeological reconstruction of what happened over the last 12 months. Right. So at least if you’ve got it running through that account and I like that suggestion of if you think it might be business, run it through because then you captured it there. And like your accountant can always tell you if it’s not right, like it doesn’t need to be perfect. And I think people also need to hear that it doesn’t need to be perfect. If it might be a business expense, run it through. And if it’s not, then that’s something that can be, you know, taken out of your statements when your accountant, but that at least earmarks it so you can have that conversation with them. 

Andrew [00:10:21] Yeah, that’s exactly right. And setting up that business bank account or the personal checking account, whatever might be appropriate for you with where you are on the journey, that gives you that next step in the process of being able to start setting up your accounting system. So whether you’re that individual, like me in this case, that’s working a small part-time private practice on the side and setting up a simple spreadsheet where you’re tracking the income items, tracking your expenses, and looking at how much you’re making after expenses on a monthly basis to understand how much you might need to set aside or starting to think about setting up accounting software. Having that separation will enable you to very easily go through on a monthly basis, review income and expenses, and understand what that breakout looks like. Understand how to set aside money for taxes, understand what you can take from an owner-draw perspective, and start to build towards more of a regular process of looking at your money and making decisions around your money. 

Linzy [00:11:17] Yeah, and for people who are listening, who have not done that, who have not yet created a separate bank account, and what I’m hearing here, and I think it’s helpful for people to hear this, too, if you’re just a sole proprietor, if you haven’t incorporated it like as a separate legal entity, if it’s not an LLC or PLC in the States and in Canada, if it’s not a corporation, it’s just you. It can be a personal checking account. Yeah, it doesn’t need to be a separate business checking account, which are more expensive. They make certain things easier, but you certainly pay for that. It can just be another account, even in your personal accounts, you’re saying. 

Andrew [00:11:49] 100%. Because the reason you’ll set up a separate business entity is there’s a liability protection, or the word that they use is the corporate veil that protects the assets that are included in the business entity. But then again, like as a clinician, you have liability insurance and malpractice insurance. So like the normal protections for an LLC, you don’t always protect a clinician or a license in the same way, but there are benefits to having that separation. But if you are just a sole proprietor, just having a separate personal checking and personal savings or just a personal checking, if you want to keep it simple. Perfect and a great first step. 

Linzy [00:12:25] Yeah, and I do want to add to that, just to complicate it slightly for people listening, because I know who’s listening. If you do tend to steal from yourself, like if you are somebody who like, you see the money, so you take the money, that’s where like that one extra step of putting it in a different bank gives you that extra boundary to be like, That’s not actually your other personal checking account, it is your business account. So some folks, it’s like not going to be a big deal putting it in the same bank. Beautiful. It’s together, but it’s separate. But I’m just going to speak to the stealers here. If you steal from yourself, putting it somewhere else also gives you that extra clarity and puts some extra space between the business and your personal finances. If you’re going to take that tax money and use it to buy something for your kid instead. And that’s just knowing yourself, right? Setting up a system that makes sense for who you are. 

Andrew [00:13:10] Yeah. That’s a really smart, thoughtful idea. I’m going to take that one. Thank you. 

Linzy [00:13:14] Thanks. Yeah. There you go. Now, let’s- I’m going to really lean on your accounting expertise here. Right? Because a question that I get that I’m like, that’s not for me, that’s an accounting question. I get questions a lot about incorporation. Right. So in in the States, it’s like that SCorp status is usually the next step. Right. In Canada, it’s just corporation, which, you know, that’s different country. We’re not going to ask for your expertise for Canadians. But there is this point where, you know, you have to think about do you want to take this next step into becoming an SCorp in the United States? And what I noticed with my students and the folks in my audience is there can be a lot of uncertainty and kind of like fear and really like distrust of accountants around is my accountant actually giving me good advice, should I actually become an SCorp, or is there something, you know, what’s in it for them? Because like they’re getting paid to do this work, everything becomes more expensive. So I find there’s a lot of confusion and trepidation around SCorp. So I would love your thoughts on when should someone consider becoming an SCorp in the United States. 

Andrew [00:14:18] Yeah, great question. So let’s first talk through a process of what it takes to become an SCorp, but then can dive into the depth of where that makes sense. And so the big thing about becoming an SCorp from a sole proprietor. So if you’ve already formed a business entity, forming an SCorp is fairly straightforward. It’s filing an election to be taxed as an SCorp. But at the end of the year – misnomer here, that’s very common that clinicians will come to us and say, Oh, I want to form an SCorp. An SCorp is a type of tax election in the eyes of the IRS. It’s not actually a formal business entity. And so in order to become an SCorp and be taxed as an SCorp and reap the benefits of being taxed as an SCorp, you must first form an LLC or a PLC, or if you’re in California professional corporation, every individual state has their own sets of rules and regulations as to what license professionals can be incorporated as. And so, work with a professional or dig into your Facebook group or memberships or communities to understand what folks in your state have been registered as. If you’re wanting to DIY and do it yourself and setting up that new business entity in terms of when it makes sense to become an SCorp and the benefits of being an SCorp. I guess why somebody would make a decision to become an SCorp is there’s a certain level of income that you cross to where you might start receiving a tax advantageous benefit from operating as an SCorp. And why that is, is because as a self-employed individual, as many of the Americans on this call have recognized, you have federal income tax, state income tax for our New York City folks, city income tax, and then you have this other thing called self-employment tax. This is you being responsible for paying into Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment taxes. Taxes that you would otherwise be paying as an employed individual on your W-2 in the form of payroll taxes. And so I look at those two things pretty synonymously. And so the benefit of becoming an S Corp is you’re building a tax entity or separating your tax entity in the context of employer versus employer-owner versus employee. And so when you elect to be taxed as an SCorp, you have the opportunity to separate yourself as the owner and also be the employee of the business. And so as the owner, you have tax-free distributions that you’re taking from the business as an employee. You pay yourself what’s called a reasonable salary. And I’ll briefly talk through that, pay yourself a reasonable salary of which you will pay payroll taxes against, which for the self-employed individual that’s listening synonymous in the amount, 15.3% that you would be paying otherwise if you’re a self-employed. So the difference here, let’s imagine Linzy went into practice and she had $100,000 that she was making. 50 that- we’ll assume she has no other business expenses besides payroll for the sake of the math. Okay. $100,000 she earned in gross income or total income. She had $50,000 that she determined was a reasonable salary. And typically where accountants land in reasonable salary is anywhere from 40 to 60% of overall gross income. Okay. Every accountant will probably provide you a different answer, but that’s typically where they will fall. Okay. So let’s imagine $50,000 of reasonable salary. So against that reasonable salary in the U.S., Linzy will pay federal income taxes, state income tax, snd let’s say she’s in New York City, city income tax, and then also payroll taxes. So that’s a lot of money. But of that $50,000, otherwise that’s left over or the net income or the profit in her practice she is taking that as a – after the taxes that she’s responsible for paying – taking that as a tax-free dividend or tax-free distribution. And so accountants will say tax-free dividend or tax-free distribution. But what it means is that they are no longer paying self-employment tax or payroll taxes on that owner’s dividend. They are just paying federal income tax, state income tax, and city income tax. And so in this example, very meta, high level, against that $50,000, there’s 15.3% that you’re not paying. So you’re potentially saving 7500. 

Linzy [00:18:35] Right. 

Andrew [00:18:36] Which sounds really awesome. Right. But there are administrative changes that you are making in your practice. You are adding a payroll software, you’re adding a separate business return. You’re having to approach accounting in a different way, more complex adjustments that you’re having to make. You’re probably at this point working with an accountant and maybe you were previously doing it yourself. And so there’s a whole host of costs. And certainly, if you’re going from a sole proprietor to an SCorp, administrative changes, compliance deadlines, a lot of changes that take place in order to get there. And from a tax saving standpoint, even once you factor in those administrative costs. And one thing that I would always recommend is applying an hourly rate to the amount of time that you might have to spend thinking about or being an SCorp. 

Linzy [00:19:25] Yes. 

Andrew [00:19:26] You start factoring in all of those deductions you might also get otherwise, just as a self-employed individual, and oftentimes you have to be at a pretty meaningful level of income for it to make sense for you to become an S corporation. That is not to discourage. We have lots of folks on Heard that become s corporation and see tax savings. Yeah. However, you know, for the folks that are right at that margin or right at that line where it starts to make sense, really take a step back and figure out, is it right for me at this point in time, Hey, accountant, can you give me a breakdown or understand both from a time perspective and a cost perspective what I might expect? 

Linzy [00:20:02] Yeah, because I think what I hear is, you know, people are informed about the potential tax savings, right? Like that self-employment tax even at 15%. And that’s a nice number. When you were like you saved $7500, I’m like, damn, I want to save $7500 in the year. Like, that’s great. That’s like a trip to Europe. Yeah, but as you say, like, there’s all these other costs that you’re incurring, right? So there’s an equation there of like, okay, so in this example, I’m saving 7500, but I’m paying now like an SCorp tax filing. You know, I’ve got payroll software that I’m using every month, which is maybe like 50 bucks a month. So it’s like actually running that. And I am curious if you could ballpark it. What do you think is like the base cost of having an S corp? If we think about all those new costs that pop up when you have that tax filing status? 

Andrew [00:20:47] Yeah, let’s do some mental math. Let’s assume $500 for payroll. That’s pretty standard across the year. $500 dollars for payroll for the year. You’re paying for an 1120, so a business income tax return, the average cost of an 1120 for a business tax return in the US is $1,000. That’s 1500. Let’s assume that you probably spend an additional 10 hours a year thinking about it and maybe, you know, at $200 an hour. So let’s say that’s another 2000, then you’re at about 3500. Yeah. And then maybe your state has additional compliance demands or franchise taxes associated with being an S corp and not state. So an additional thousand or 1500. So very quickly that 7500 goes down to 2000 or 2500. 

Linzy [00:21:40] So because that was like off the top of your head, that was like $5,000 associated expenses. And something that I do also hear like I’m hearing $1,000 for filing. I have also heard of folks having the experience of their accountant starts charging them more for bookkeeping because they’re an SCorp. There’s kind of like everything gets more serious. 

Andrew [00:22:00] 100%. Yes. 

Linzy [00:22:00] And so that could also be an expense that if you have a bookkeeper seeing like your annual cost of working with that person, if you’re in a monthly relationship with them, how much does that add up? Yeah, because right there, it’s like for all that work, now is a $2500 gain a year rather than 7500, but with a lot of extra pieces. So, you know, a question that I, I hear a lot and I know there’s no one answer, but I am curious if there’s a ballpark answer. And I think you know the question. Yeah, what is the dollar amount, like thinking about what’s left over, what you know, what somebody is getting paid, what is the amount that cues you to think like, okay, it’s something to start thinking about. Because there’s no cut and dry. But is it like when I’m bringing home 50 grand a year, Is it 75? Is it 100, Is it 150? When is it definitely worth having a conversation with your accountant about whether you should become an SCorp? 

Andrew [00:22:51] Yeah, I would say anywhere from probably 80,000 to $100,000 in business is when it really starts to make sense to have that conversation, because before then you start to play the math game and that number shrinks really quickly. And so at that point in time, I think it really makes sense to explore. And that’s not to say that there’s not people below, you know, $100,000 in business profit that aren’t really being benefits of being taxed as Scorp, that I’ve taken different strategies within the corporation acknowledging that there are different approaches to benefits and lots of things like that with an S corporation. But I would say right around that like $80,000 mark is where it starts to make sense to have that conversation and do some math. 

Linzy [00:23:31] Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then another piece to this equation is that like reasonable salary. Yeah, right. So there is, you know, yours is to determine what a reasonable salary is. And you said usually folks will land like 40 to 60. 

[00:23:45] Correct  

[00:23:46] That’s like it’s almost like a worksheet that you work through. Is that correct? I’ve seen it, I think, in passing. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about like that process of making that decision of what is reasonable? Like how much should a therapist reasonably get paid to do the work that they do? Is it purely based on dollar amounts? Would they ever consider how many hours you’re working? Like what is that process like? 

Andrew [00:24:07] Yeah, that’s a great question. So in the like IRS application, there is like an absolute minimum salary that has to be maintained and that evolves year over year. But the reality is – and we were talking about this briefly before we got on the call – the reality is, is as with everything in the IRS guidelines or applications, when you’re making decisions about how you want to approach tax filing, it is up to you as the individual to determine how aggressive versus how conservative you want to be when you approach all of these decisions, whether it’s taking a specific travel deduction or, you know, figuring out how you want to determine the allocation of your home office deduction that you’re taking all the way back to the reasonable salary that you want to set up for your business. And so as it relates to what is the appropriate reasonable salary, we have a worksheet that we work through with all of our clients when we’re calculating this out and we’ll explain out, hey, aggressive versus conservative to us, aggressive starts to feel aggressive right around that 40% mark and more conservative starts to exist in that, like 60% range. But if you were to just broadly take a step back and say, you know, what are all the things that you need to think about, where am I located? What is my licensure type? If I were to go on, you know, indeed or hiring dot com and see what other salary is for this type of role were. Basically what you’re trying to factor in and think about is what are all of the qualitative and quantitative determinants if the IRS were to come to me and say. Hey, this doesn’t feel so reasonable. Can you provide evidence as to how you got back to that decision? You’re basically working to build a story into how it makes sense for you, right? So based on licensure type or location, there’s going to be a different impact or decision to be made around reasonable salary. 

Linzy [00:25:59] Yeah, And I think, you know, that really does point to how there is there’s a bit of an art here, in a way it’s almost like an art of storytelling, right? So it’s like you need to think about what is your rationale for having a certain – like if I’m, if I’m a psychologist and I’m working full time, it’s not reasonable that I would make $45,000 because I could just make a lot more money than that. Right? But if I’m like a youth worker, maybe youth workers do make that much, right? So but really having that rationale. And I know my own Canadian accountant for my Canadian situation has said that thinking about a real estate business, that we have a rental property and she’s like, you need to have your rationale. If you’ve got your clear rationale, then in our case, the CRA needs to fight you to disprove your rationale. Right? But if you’ve really solidified your thinking and you have your evidence, then they have to fight back on you. But if you have no reason and you’re like, I don’t know, I just thought $25,000 sounded reasonable, like it’s not right. And so, yeah, and as you’re mentioning too, with accountants, it’s like I think that sometimes from the therapist perspective, it feels like accounting is a science and numbers are a science and there’s like a right and a wrong. But the more I talk to accountants, you know, the more I see like it is an art and it is an opinion and there is stories there and there’s personal values and risk tolerance. Like there’s a lot of things that go into the advice that any accountant is going to give you, which is where I also think having alignment with your accountant is really important, right? Like you have to be on the same page about what is reasonable and you have to be ready to kind of like, yeah, sure, share a story with the IRS if they disagree with you, it’s good to have somebody that can be on the same page with. 

Andrew [00:27:30] Yeah, that’s exactly right. And we’ve had to either turn away clients or transition clients who have wanted to be more aggressive than we were comfortable with at our firm and our tax preparers were comfortable with. And so that relationship goes both ways. And the way that you described it was like probably the most thoughtfully described that I’ve heard how to think about that relationship as well. And so, yeah, definitely have that conversation. And I think it ultimately does come back to values more than I think. 

Linzy [00:27:55] Yes. Yeah. And ultimately, like your bookkeeper, your accountant shouldn’t go to jail for, you know, it’s just not worth it for them. So like, don’t ask them to do things that would actually jeopardize them. And, you know, and so finding that right fit of being in the same risk tolerance is really, really helpful. 

Andrew [00:28:10] Correct. 

Linzy [00:28:10] Okay, Andrew, thank you. This has been very informative. I think folks who are listening have just gotten a lot of information, not just into like the black and white, but like what what to consider. So I’m hoping that folks who are listening, who have had this SCorp question floating around might have some more to chew on and think about as they might be making that decision. So for folks who want to hear more from heard, want to learn more about what you folks do, where can they find you? Yeah. 

Andrew [00:28:36] Again, thanks so much for having me. You can find out more on joinHeard.com. And our amazing marketing and content team has put together a plethora of tools, resources, state-by-state guides that are leverageable templates that you can use if you do want to DIY out or handle a lot of this stuff yourself. We also have an awesome newsletter where we’re sharing content on a weekly basis and a growing Facebook community which we launched earlier this year, where I love to go on and answer questions, and other teammates and accountants at Heard will go in there and answer questions as well. 

Linzy [00:29:15] Right? Awesome. Thank you so much, Andrew. 

Andrew [00:29:17] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:29:32] The piece of the conversation with Andrew where he got into thinking about the costs, I think is a really helpful strategic way for us to be thinking about making these decisions as therapists. It can be very tempting with accountants to look to them as experts and to either like want to trust them fully and just do whatever they say or not trust them because you don’t understand what they’re saying. And the way that Andrew talked through that process is a really good illustration of how to think through the implications of making a decision for your business. With you being the leader of the business. Right. So that suggestion to think about, okay, for your situation, you know, you would be saving 15% in self-employment taxes. Thinking about what you earn and the actual amount of money that we’re talking about that you’re getting paid, how much would you be saving in taxes and then how much is it going to cost you to have this new status? How much is your your filing? How much is your accountant going to charge you for filing going forward or for monthly bookkeeping? How does that expense change? How much of your time is going to be going into maintaining this and that lets you actually make a grounded decision that’s informed by numbers rather than an emotional decision or decision based on like this is what they’re saying. So I have to do it. There’s just so much more information with that way of that will let you make a grounded decision. I love that Andrew’s response was to guide you through putting together information to make a grounded decision about your legal status, because ultimately your accountant is not the one who is going to like, benefit or be responsible for you being an SCorp. It’s going to be you, right? So taking the time to make an informed decision that makes sense and that you really can stand behind because you’ve run the numbers and you know that it makes sense for you is a much more empowered place to make that call than just basically deciding if you trust your accountant’s opinion or not. So really appreciate that perspective from Andrew. If you’d like to hear more from me, you can find me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And you know what I’m going to say? If you are enjoying the podcast, please take a minute to go leave us a review. It really, really helps therapists find us. It’s the best way for new folks to find us. Live review on Apple podcast and let people know what you appreciate about the podcast. It’ll take you like three or 4 minutes and it would really make a big difference for me. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Hi, I'm Linzy

Hi, I'm Linzy

I’m a therapist in private practice, and a the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. I help therapists and health practitioners in private practice feel calm and in control of their finances.

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