Meg [00:00:04] That’s a big thing that I talk about my coaching clients with is like when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning?
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. We are starting a new season today. Welcome back to season six of the podcast. We do our podcasts in 12-episode chunks so that my team and I can take breaks, we can breathe. I really like doing it that way. So we’ve had a little gap between seasons and now we’re back. And today’s guest is Megan Kelly. Megan Kelly is a mental health therapist in the state of Indiana, and she’s also a business coach for therapists. She runs the popular Instagram account, @antiworktherapist. And today, Megan and I talk about embodiment and therapy and money. We talk about the relationship between embodiment and therapy in general, the relationship between embodiment and money, like being in our bodies in relation to money. We talk about how our relationship with money can interfere with being in our bodies and also how our relationship with money and how money can support being in our bodies and what it’s like to actually have an embodied relationship with money. So we kind of covered embodiment and money from a few angles today. Meg talks about her experiences with burnout and being disconnected from her body and the work that she’s done to come more back into relationship with her body. How money supported her with that, but also about having an actual embodied relationship with money and being able to actually feel our bodies and be really present with money in a profound way and the benefits of that. Here is my conversation with Meg Kelly. So Meg, welcome to the podcast.
Meg [00:02:43] Thanks for having me.
Linzy [00:02:44] Yeah, thank you for being on here. I wanted to get started. Meg, like I was mentioning to you I was taking a look at your Instagram beforehand and something really caught my eye as something that you really talk about and promote that I think gets so often missed in the therapy space, period, and in the therapy business space, which is about embodiment. So I’m curious for you, like what is your relationship to embodiment and therapy? Yeah, Tell me your thoughts on the space.
Meg [00:03:14] Yeah, absolutely. So it’s taken me quite some time as a therapist to feel more embodied. Generally speaking, I’ve definitely struggled with it, both as a professional, as a person. When I first started my practice, it was very hard to feel… I don’t want to say like a human, but to feel like a human in my own body. So because there was so much going on in my mind and there’s so many things that I was trying to pay attention to: money, policies, how to get clients, everything involved, that, you know, it just it felt really hard to be present. And when I started my practice, I was coming out of a group practice where I got a lot of really good experience. But there were a lot of aspects of that that led me to be very burnt out, very disconnected from myself, and pretty hyper-focused on how hard things were at the time, which, you know, I don’t want to stay in a negative headspace a lot. It gets really hard to be there. So there was a lot of just, I don’t want to be here. I want to go out and do something else. I don’t wanna think about it. I don’t want to feel it. But I recognized over time that just- it wasn’t working for me as a person, but it also wasn’t working for my business to be in that space of just being so disconnected from everything. Right.
Linzy [00:04:34] Yeah. Like, I mean it- and I’m sure many folks listening have experienced this- like when things are hard, for whatever reason, our work environment, it’s adaptive to tune out, right, and to become less connected to our bodies. But then I’m hearing that you also start to notice costs for that.
Meg [00:04:50] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. It came a lot in the form of physical ailment, physical pain. Right? But there’s also detachment from people outside of my work. So detachment from my spouse and my stepson and friends and family that was part of the cost as well.
Linzy [00:05:13] Mmm. Oh gosh, yes. And I’m curious like with your, with your work, were you disembodied in your work too. Like what did you notice in that therapist space?
Meg [00:05:23] What was interesting about that is I found it very easy to tune in to the client. I have a decent amount of training in trauma, so I’m trained in EMDR. I have done a lot of work with polyvagal theory, window of tolerance, really checking in with the physical self and the emotional self in those spaces. I honestly found it quite easy to be in-tune and connected to a degree. There was definitely a lot of not wanting to feel pain in my neck or the pain in my back, or if I noticed that I was becoming internally, I guess you could say dysregulated that would be something that I wouldn’t want to necessarily lean into, but notice in those spaces. So using my training, it was easier in the therapeutic space to do that. But if I felt that way outside of my work, I would almost immediately try to shut it off some way, or try to get it out because it felt so painful when it would actually come up.
Linzy [00:06:24] Yeah. And would that be kind of your own, like your basically bodily information about what’s actually happening for you?
Meg [00:06:31] Yeah.
Linzy [00:06:32] Yeah. That would be coming up.
Meg [00:06:32] Absolutely.
Linzy [00:06:33] And you know, like that’s so interesting that you say that you’re able to tune in to your clients. And that’s what I was wondering because I just had a conversation this week, kind of briefly touched in passing with Heather, who coaches for me in Money Skills for Therapists, about how I notice for me, especially when I was a therapist, if was I feeling sick or having like my own stress at home or like some sort of conflict, how I could just turn that off as a therapist, It’s like this like switch that I could flip and then immediately just be attuned to that person and like, yeah, totally like window of tolerance. I used to. I still have it, actually. I had Janine Fischer’s like, flip chart of like the window of tolerance. I had this whole thing. I would go through it. Mine’s getting very yellowed and I don’t use it anymore, but I still have it, like really helping somebody else attune to their body and like, reading their somatic cues. And sometimes I would even like, have mirror symptoms with my clients, like feel like, oh, my chest is feeling really tight. I don’t usually have that, but it’s all about connecting with that person and their body, but not actually being connected with my body, which I find really convenient when I have a cold and I feel crappy.
Meg [00:07:33] Yeah, I had an entire day one time I worked with food poisoning. I didn’t realize it, like I knew I didn’t feel great. I was in sessions. I was fine. I’m all telehealth too, so that was helpful. But at the end of the session, I was like, Well, I really- I do not feel good right now. I can’t believe I just worked all day.
Linzy [00:07:56] And, you know, I do remember I attended – just one time, but it was so good – I attended the conference for the International Society for the Study of Trauma Dissociation, and there was an Australian presenter talking about how therapists have to dissociate to do our work, right, like just the position our bodies are in, the amount of time that we have to hold still and like not be distracting to somebody else, be attuned to somebody else. Like we have to tune out those bodily cues in order to do this. It’s almost like built into the work. I’m curious, like your thoughts about that?
Meg [00:08:29] Yeah, I do find that there is a certain amount of not letting myself get in the way, so to speak. I think that’s kind of an interesting way or different way to frame it. And the more training I get in polyvagal therapy and how that can be both very helpful for the client, but also in checking in with the self. It helps me understand if I am joining or enmeshing with a client. Big difference there. It can be hard sometimes to know the difference until you get some sense of what those bodily cues are. Yeah, but even then if I notice, like, wow, I’m actually taking on anxiety. Like my heart’s racing as my client is talking. That is where I can tell I’m a little more enmeshed than I would like to be. So it’s helpful to some degree, but I don’t want to become overinvolved in that either.
Linzy [00:09:21] Yeah, of course. Of course. So, you know, you’re saying that kind of at the beginning of then stepping into practice, there was this more disembodiment, which sounds like it was kind of a leftover from your previous environment. I’m curious how did that shift or change over time?
Meg [00:09:40] In a very bumpy, roundabout, difficult way?
Linzy [00:09:45] Got it.
Meg [00:09:46] So for those who are familiar with my work, I had and I still have, although it’s been on pause for a while, a podcast called Mental Status, which is primarily about burnout within the mental health field. And so I had interview-style episodes with other therapists talking about burnout. That was, in my mind as I’m looking back, one of the biggest signs to myself, like, my goodness, maybe it’s time to like, actually pay attention to this. I knew at some level that I was burned out working where I was working, but it wasn’t until I actually got out of that environment that the remnants started showing up. A lot of scarcity, a lot of ups and downs, emotionally, a lot of fatigue. That first six months of practice, I was either on an emotional high, like I felt great, or I was so tired and so frustrated and so overwhelmed that I felt like, I don’t even want to do this anymore. I just I don’t know why I got into this career. I don’t know why I’m doing this. I need to just like, close up shop and go back to working in marketing. So it was all of that. It wasn’t until probably the fall of that first year that I really started to feel like, No, I’m intentionally making this choice to be here. I am choosing to do this practice, I’m choosing these policies, I’m choosing my schedule. I’m the one making it difficult for myself in a lot of ways, or easy, depending on how I look at it. Yes, I do. I actually want to do this because, yes, I’m the one in charge.
Linzy [00:11:23] Takes a while to catch up, eh? To ourselves. Yeah, I do. I have like noticed it’s just so easy to just replicate the environment that we were just in, even if it’s just on an emotional level of not connecting with the fact that you’re actually the boss now, you actually get to make like all the decisions and you can make it look however you need it to look. I find people have a really hard time giving themselves permission or actually stepping into that empowerment. We end up kind of acting like there is somebody else making the decisions. Not for our betterment. Some shadowy figure, I guess. I’m not sure.
Meg [00:11:55] Yeah.
Linzy [00:11:56] But it’s definitely like this repetition that happens.
Meg [00:11:58] And what I noticed too is both sort of feeling like there should be somebody else in charge. That’s kind of how I felt at times, like, I don’t want this. Somebody else should be in charge. Take it away from me. And also a little bit in handing that off to clients, which fortunately in my first year of practice I was in a coaching container actually with a former podcast guest of yours, Felicia Keller Boyle.
Linzy [00:12:22] Oh lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Meg [00:12:24] So I was in her year-long coaching container and one of the things that she always talked about is you don’t ask other people for permission to run your business the way you need to run it. And that just really stuck with me. And eventually I caught up with myself and finally, like, embodied that part of my practice as well.
Linzy [00:12:47] Let’s get to where you are today.
Meg [00:12:49] Mm hmm.
Linzy [00:12:50] Today, how do you relate to your own embodiment and how do you think embodiment and therapy go together?
Meg [00:12:59] Mm hmm. Well, outside of work now, I currently, for the most part, love to be in my body. I found a lot of ways that work for me to either gently or more vigorously get back into myself once I get out of the therapy space. So one thing that I’ve mentioned and some of the stuff that I’ve published is CrossFit. Now, I know a lot of people have a lot of ideas about CrossFit. I personally feel like it came into my life at the perfect time. It was the right gym for me. It was the right people, the right type of movement. Doing something like that helps me feel very viscerally alive after being very much in my head all day as part of the work. It’s very cerebral, unless you’re doing really specific somatic work. Yeah, there’s a lot of talking, a lot of thinking. And so going into those spaces helps me reconnect. And even in the therapy space, as I’m learning more, I’m starting to connect more with my physical self in the space. I’ve started to learn that, like, I have this thing right here, I have fidgets with me, right? Like, and this is something that helps. And I felt weird about that for a very long time. And I’m just like, now I pick this up and show my clients. I’m like, Look, I’m squeezing this fidget ball underneath my desk. Like, this helps me too. Yes, you can do the same.
Linzy [00:14:22] Yes.
Meg [00:14:23] Yes. So it feels much more natural and less strenuous, I’d say, overall, the way that I’m practicing today.
Linzy [00:14:33] And as you know, this is a money podcast. So we’re going to bring in the money piece now.
Meg [00:14:38] Absolutely.
Linzy [00:14:39] What have you noticed about how money and the way that people relate to money? Like I’m going to say, people’s relationship with money, how can that interfere with embodiment?
Meg [00:14:50] I can talk about myself in that regard. When I first started my practice, there was a lot of content that I was consuming from a lot of really cool therapists online who were talking about your six-figure practice. And that, in my mind, was sort of set forth as like, that is the goal. That’s where I’m headed. That’s what I need. Because that’s just like. That’s what people do, right? Like, that’s where we’re going. And the way it showed up for me was even when I was having other types of success in my practice, even if I was having success with clients, finding clients, retaining clients, really good therapeutic work, or if I was connecting with other therapists or put in a policy that I felt really supported me. Yeah, if something wasn’t reflected in the dollar signs, I’d be like, It’s not working right? Which is not true. And I say that with the the second or third month that I was in practice, I made the most money in one month that I had ever made in my life. And I still felt like I was back in that group practice where I was making a quarter of that amount. It felt like that to me. I was like, This doesn’t feel stable or safe. That number doesn’t seem real. So it can be a very just like. You don’t quite know how to step into that space. Initially, it feels, for me, it felt very unreal, almost, that I was making that type of money.
Linzy [00:16:23] Yeah. Like there’s there’s a disconnection there. Or like, a lack of presence or trust. Right. Like you didn’t trust the numbers were real.
Meg [00:16:31] No.
Linzy [00:16:32] And this is what I noticed, I think, with a lot of therapists also, I think tend to skew towards perfectionism and like being goal oriented. And I have noticed, like, it can be hard for us to connect with success, like actually viscerally physically connect to success and feel excited or feel proud or feel accomplished or empowered like, I did that, like physically, like owning it. There can be this real disconnection for good numbers.
Meg [00:17:04] Oh, absolutely.
Linzy [00:17:04] Of course we own the failure immediately. That’s me. Like, that’s obviously reflective of me as a human and my value. But those good numbers can be actually harder to connect with and to own as real. And I do see that as like a lack of presence, a lack of presence. And and as I’m talking, I’m putting my hand on my chest. This is a podcast. You cannot see this, but that real embodied presence of being with. We have a hard time being with.
Meg [00:17:31] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was a lot that I had learned to be with constriction and feeling like I was lacking and that there was not enough. I think that’s a feeling and an attitude and a belief that is quite pervasive, not just in the therapeutic areas, but all over the place. Right. And for a lot of very valid reasons. And it felt so unnatural for me, both professionally, even though I was well into my thirties at that point, based on where I am in my career, what makes sense? Good money. But it didn’t feel like it was actually for me or that it was real or that I was with it. And it seemed like the numbers just- I didn’t know what was happening with them for quite some time and actually some evidence of that, as well, within Felicia’s coaching container, every month she would send out a form for us to fill out. How many clients did you see? How much did you earn this month? And I avoided it. If she listens to this, she will recognize like Meg almost never sent those in. And I recognize alone that I didn’t send them in. Part of it was just like, I can’t. I can’t look at this. I can’t feel it. I don’t know what to do with this. It was at the time, almost a feeling of shame, which is a little strange. Even though I was well out of a space where I felt ashamed of how much I was making. It’s just a very interesting time.
Linzy [00:19:01] Yeah. And and I’m curious, like, do you think at that time, would there have been any number that would have you would have been like, okay, now we’re here? Or was it very much about like your own headspace and where your emotions were at?
Meg [00:19:16] I think it was more about the headspace and being early in my practice too. I think there was some element of still feeling like I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah. So that even feeling like a fluke, like, well, sure. And made that much this month, but like next month. No way. Yeah. Even though the next month I didn’t make quite as much, but it was still good enough. It was enough money. So definitely a lot of the headspace there was, That’s what was going on for me.
Linzy [00:19:45] And so since then, I’m curious, what has been your experience with money supporting embodiment? We just talked about like disconnection and like not being able to connect and and also chasing something, like chasing- when I hear like six-figure practice, it’s like you’re chasing this thing on paper, this intellectual thing that might not even make sense for your life or for your needs, but you’re chasing from your head, not from your body. I’m curious now, like, how has money been able to support you in embodiment?
Meg [00:20:14] Well, go back to that physical health aspect. It allows me to afford these gym memberships where I find a lot of value in the work that I do there in the community that I have. Being more intimately familiar with the money that’s coming in and out every month, which I am now, and looking at it quite frequently, it helps me not hide from myself in terms of my money, and it really encourages me to be mindful about how I’m setting myself up. So last year I didn’t have a retirement account set up – well, I did, but I hadn’t started contributions for it. I hadn’t really set up a savings for myself. I was saving for tax, so I at least had that. But the rest was just kind of like, I don’t know if I can afford to use, I guess we’ll see. But in getting working with my own nervous system around money. Becoming more familiar with those numbers, becoming more comfortable with what I was charging, led me to more comfort with looking at the numbers, more comfort with committing to a monthly contribution to my retirement funds, which in an interesting way, I had this mindset of I don’t want to start that if I can’t guarantee that I can always pay that amount into my retirement account, which is like if I need to stop that for a month or two to pay other things, I can pause it and then restart it like it’s not-
Linzy [00:21:39] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Meg [00:21:40] So it’s a much deeper familiarity. And that has allowed me to now have savings in my business that affords me seven weeks of paid time off. In addition, it has allowed me to joyfully participate and not, like, begrudgingly participate, in a two-week vacation for my stepson, who’s graduating from high school, and say, like, Yes, we can do that. So it’s lending itself to experience. And it also it’s given me more time to create free or lower-cost content for the people that I’m trying to help. I’m not so caught up in trying to make money that I can actually provide content to people who need it and can’t afford, you know, consultation sessions with me.
Linzy [00:22:26] Yes, And that’s such an excellent point. And I think people who are listening will appreciate that piece of it is what I’m hearing is like by you being able to be with more, you’ve been able to make money work for you better, which means also you’re not just constantly chasing more. So you can actually put your time and your bandwidth towards creating those accessible things for folks to reach who may not be able to afford working with you, I would assume it could be part of that too. Yeah. Like it’s giving you- this is something I’ve been thinking about a little bit is the distinction, too, between like time and bandwidth. You know, we can buy back time and time is valuable, but even more valuable in time is bandwidth, where we’ve actually left ourselves with the energy at the end of the day to, like, enjoy life, have hobbies, have a community, and like be able to be creative, which when we’re working as hard as we can, whether it’s towards a real goal that makes sense or an arbitrary goal, somebody else’s set that doesn’t even suit us, we don’t have that left at the end of the day.
Meg [00:23:24] We don’t.
Linzy [00:23:25] Like it’s yeah, it’s like try to recuperate, start over the next day.
Meg [00:23:28] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that was a big part of the cycle that I was caught in for quite some time, was sitting at my desk from 8:30 until 6:30 or seven, and then not having enough energy to do anything other than watch TV and eat dinner. Yes. Not. It wasn’t fun. It’s not like my whole life. No. Yes. Yes.
Linzy [00:23:51] And sometimes, too, I think about like, what is the life that our clients imagine us having? You know, And it’s like, that’s probably not it. Probably like, Oh, And then my therapist lies on the couch and stares blankly at the TV until she finally musters up the will to go to bed. That’s what I’m going for. And that’s why I’m working with this person. Yeah. No, it’s those expanding possibilities. And I’m curious too, Meg, like, thinking about having a more embodied relationship with money now, like, I’m hearing, first of all, money supports you in doing the stuff that takes care of your body, but also having that more embodied relationship where you can be with what emotions go with money for you, now.
Meg [00:24:25] I still experience some anxiety. I’m hoping that at some point that will lessen or go away. But I’m also realistic enough to know that anxiety is normal. So that still occurs, but I think a little bit more what’s peaking out is the sense of possibility. And I don’t want to say full-on security, but a little bit more of a sense of security and knowing that I’ve made it work for myself. So far, I have not ever been in a place where I mean, I’ve had some very, very financially stressful times, but I have supports and I’m very lucky for that and privileged for that. And so recognizing the supports that I have in place, recognizing that I don’t need to be the only one in my family unit keeping an eye on this, like my spouse is in this with me, it brings a greater sense of just being able to trust that. Just a little bit more trust. Yeah.
Linzy [00:25:20] So I’m hearing anxiety, trust. Are there – I’m going to therapist you just a little bit – are there other feelings in the mix?
Meg [00:25:26] Probably. I haven’t mentioned- so a bit of excitement. There’s definitely excitement around knowing that with the money that I have earned through my consulting business, I was able to pay upfront for the tickets to go to Europe with my stepson this summer. Like that was something that was supported. And so it feels supported, exciting. It’s lending itself to opportunity and excitement, a little bit more stability and security. I’m still working on that. And there’s still mixed in just a little bit of a sense of like, I wish it didn’t have to be this way. Like part of me wishes money wasn’t a factor. But yeah, I live in a society- in reality, so. Yeah, it is. It has.
Linzy [00:26:10] It is. It is. Yeah. And I just did a workshop today for the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy Association. They heard that this like, wellness event. And in it I was thinking about like, right, like money and wellness. And I had the slide where I was just like a long time ago, our society decided money would be used as a way of exchanging, you know, goods and services. I was like easing that transition. It’s like that is what it is. It’s like I do therapy or I’m, you know, I teach somebody a course and my money allows me to turn that into groceries. Yeah. Otherwise it’d be very complicated to get groceries, if I needed to rely on the person, the grocery store wanting, you know, a consultation about therapy, that wouldn’t really work. And so it’s like but it helps me zoom out a little bit, even just to be like, right, this is just a means of exchange that we’ve agreed on and therefore it’s unavoidable. But for me, it, it helped to deepen the neutrality of it a little bit more. For me too. I was just it’s just a way of treating shit, basically. Yeah. And there are ways that we can trade things directly if we happen to have something somebody wants and they have something we want, we can make a direct trade. But a lot of times there needs to be an intermediary symbol.
Meg [00:27:13] Yeah. One of the things that was most helpful in neutralizing for me, I don’t quite recall where I heard this. It might have been in conversation with my husband or maybe on a podcast at some point, but the framing of things cost money. That is things cost money. That’s the reality. And so learning to sit with that, too, which can bring up frustration and uncertainty and this is unfair, shouldn’t be this way. And it currently is. So that’s what we have to work with. Yes, absolutely.
Linzy [00:27:44] I do want to just touch back on the emotions that you described, unlike the excitement of being able to, you know, pay for this trip upfront, you know, from the work that you’ve done. And that to me is one of the greatest wins of having an embodied relationship with money. Right. It’s like you actually get to feel the good stuff, right? Because like, theoretically, you actually had opportunity to be very excited that like second month in practice or whatever, where you made like more money than ever before, that could have been exciting if embodiment was available to you at that time, because that’s incredible.
Meg [00:28:19] Right.
Linzy [00:28:20] But I think when we don’t have that presence, it’s hard. You don’t get as much as the negative. That’s although it’s waiting for you, of course, later, in the form of like a headache or stomach ache. But you also do get to feel the good stuff and like the pride and excitement and accomplishment of what you’ve done with your energy and your gifts.
Meg [00:28:38] And I would agree, I enjoy the fact that I can enjoy it more now than I did before. And that I’m able to take the good with the bad and the neutral and apply that money to things that I want and need. That’s a big thing when I talk about my coaching clients with, say, when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning? Absolutely.
Linzy [00:29:12] Yeah. Like, let’s go for more than living and getting by.
Meg [00:29:15] Yeah. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah. Yeah.
Linzy [00:29:19] So, Meg, can you tell folks a little bit more about the work that you do?
Meg [00:29:23] Yeah. So in my private practice, I have an all-telehealth private practice in Indiana, where I specialize in – surprise, surprise – burnout for mental health therapists. And I also do EMDR work and nontraditional relationship structures. So polyamory, things like that. And then I have a consulting business consulting and coaching where I work with other therapists who are starting a practice and looking for support. So doing what I do, trying to get support right out of the gate to make that first year as good as possible. Also, working with folks who’ve been in practice for a while and just want to up little things for themselves. And as part of that consultation business, I don’t have a date set yet, but one thing I did this spring was a group coaching experience for therapists who are leaving the therapy field, which was actually a very wonderful space and I was really glad to be able to facilitate that. So that will likely be coming up again in the fall of 2023. And in addition to that, I’ve got the @antiworktherapist Instagram page, which is kind of where a lot of this started. It sort of built out of the podcast that I had in 2021, whenever that was. And that’s basically an advocacy page for therapists talking about, I guess, work-life balance practitioner-first policies, making this work work for you and a lot of things of that sort. Great.
Linzy [00:30:54] So if folks want to learn more about you and maybe work with you, there’s the @antiworktherapist Instagram. Is that the best place for them to follow you or are there other places they should also check you out?
Meg [00:31:04] Yeah. So @antiworktherapist is great. You can also find me at informercoaching.com. So on Instagram, it’s just @informercoaching. That is where you find more of the coaching and consulting content and my website and information is on there if you want to schedule a consultation.
Linzy [00:31:20] So thank you for coming on the podcast today.
Meg [00:31:22] Of course. Thanks for having me. This is great.
Linzy [00:31:38] This conversation with Meg today has me thinking a little bit about how some of the struggles that therapists have with money, whether it’s avoiding money or overspending, have to do with a lack of embodiment around money, right? Of not really being able to be with or sometimes not being able to tolerate, you know, the feelings that we have with money. And so we take fast action. We use money as a way to try to get away from the feelings that we’re having in our body, like feeling inadequate. Feel like you’re not a good therapist. You see this clinical training come up and you’re like, That’ll make me a better therapist. That’ll make my microservices worth the money to my clients. And you split second by something to try to make the feeling in your body go away rather than being able to be with it and notice it and name it for what it is. And you know, I loved Meg’s points about having an embodied relationship with money and how that looks different now and being able to start to connect with pride. Well, she talked more about excitement. I was thinking about pride as well. That is something that I’ve noticed with many of the therapists who’ve gone through many skills for therapists is they get excited, right? So rather than when you work through money and you learn how to use it and have a relationship with it, then you can actually feel excitement and pride and empowerment and expansiveness around money. But we can’t access those things if we’re cut off from our body and if we’re not able to really be with what’s happening, we don’t get the good if we cut off the bad, which of course the therapist we know. But it applies to money just like it applies to everything else. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find us at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please take a minute to jump over and review it on Apple podcast. It is the best way for therapists to find us and be part of this conversation. Thanks for listening today.