[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to another Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. These are our short and sweet Friday episodes where we dig into a question from listeners like you, the lovely therapists and health practitioners and coaches who listen to the Money Skills Therapist podcast.

[00:00:17] And this episode today wasn’t actually supposed to happen. We were at the end of a season and I was planning to end our season with our wonderful conversation with David Frank about debt repayment, but then the election happened, and we’re at a moment in time where everything is feeling scary and uncertain and there’s a lot of things being said about what the new administration is going to do.

[00:00:43] And I’m Canadian,which means I watch these things with a little bit of distance. But even still, I’m freaking out a little bit. I see the folks in my courses in Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Practice Owners freaking out.

[00:00:57] I know there’s lots of folks in my courses and in my community who are queer and trans and marginalized in all sorts of ways that this administration is actively threatening. So let’s talk about what money means at a time like this. How Do you manage money in uncertain times? What can money do in uncertain times, like the times that we are entering into for the next four years?

[00:01:25] So when we come into a time of political uncertainty, potentially instability, the first thing that money can do for you is it can help to create stability for yourself. There’s very much a piece here with money that is always important, which is putting on your own oxygen mask first. Right? It’s really hard to take care of others and to give and to show up when you yourself do not have stability, right?

[00:01:55] So creating financial stability for yourself as much as possible is foundational to allow you to show up in all the different ways that you’re going to want to show up. So that means starting to create some breathing room for yourself in your finances, whether it’s at home, creating a bit of a buffer, starting to try and experiment with different ways of putting money aside if that’s a challenge for you, if you find that money always disappears.

[00:02:23] What can you do to start to create more financial stability for yourself at home so you see yourself becoming more stable and more secure rather than maybe going further into debt, or seeing yourself kind of break even. Does that mean not using credit cards for a while, only paying down credit cards, not putting any new balances on credit cards.

[00:02:40] Does it mean paying off credit cards every week? Back to, you know, whatever your baseline balance is and then paying them down to see yourself having your debt reduced. Does it mean creating a savings account and putting aside money every single week, even if it’s 50 bucks a week? So you see that 200 a month build up.

[00:02:57] Some of this is very practical, you know, when we have more money, obviously we are covered when things come up and if we have less debt, then that debt costs us less money. There’s lots of practicality there, but also emotionally it feels good to see ourselves moving in the directions that we want to move, and to see ourselves becoming more stable and more secure, even if in amounts that are small enough that they’re almost symbolic, that doesn’t really matter. You’re seeing that you can make an impact on your life; you are seeing that you can build stability from yourself.

[00:03:30] That can allow you to bolster and sustain yourself through hard times. The next question to think about is how can your money support you in nurturing yourself, caring for yourself. There’s a mindfulness factor here of when things are more uncertain, more stressful, letting your money take better care of you is strategic, right?

[00:03:56] How can your money help you feel healthier? Is it that you put some money towards slightly better food, right? Is it that you prioritize time off so you have more time to rest and rejuvenate and connect with yourself and the people that you love? Money can do that for you, you know, by managing your practice finances strategically. Because ultimately when your money is in a place where you can be grounded and solid and it’s not a stressor, it’s not keeping you up at night,

[00:04:27] then you can move into the place where, I think is the place where a lot of folks are going to be for the next four years, which is, then you have the money to actually support the causes you really care about to show up powerfully, for yourself, for your community,

[00:04:42] to give to communities that are going to need additional support. When your practice is actually stable and profitable you can have pro bono spots. You can run groups at a really low cost or even free. You can volunteer in your kids school, you know, for their queer collective like there’s so much that you can do when your needs are taken care of, right? And money is so powerful. Money allows things to happen in the world, and when you have that stability around money emotionally, when you have clarity on where it needs to go, then you can choose to put your money towards the causes that really matter to you, right?

[00:05:22] And see the money that you are generating making a difference in the world.

[00:05:27] And this is really the space that many of us are going to be in for the next while, which is asking ourselves questions of where do I need to show up? How can my money help me show up? What are the fights that I need to fight? How do I make an impact in this world? And you being well and having your money supporting you so that you are solid and okay, and you’re not staying up at night worrying about your own survival,

[00:05:56] is foundational to that. And also being able to direct your money, knowing that you can give 500 to this cause, or that you can see this client for free, or that you can run this free group at this local community center, or you can take time off to go to this event or to speak at a political meeting, like a town hall or whatever…

[00:06:19] All of these things are powerful ways that you can show up in the world when times are uncertain, when your values might be under threat, money is a support that allows you to do that. So some food for thought for all of us, as we’re sitting in this uncertainty together,

[00:06:39] Right now, as we’re in this kind of limbo period before things really start happening and settling in, I really encourage you to think about how money can take care of you at this time. What do you need? How do you nurture yourself? How do you give yourself the connection and the care that is going to allow you to, uh, you know, be ready to do whatever it is that you need to do to take care of yourself and the folks that you love in the coming years.

[00:07:08] So sending all the good feelings to our American listeners and audience members, Canadians too. We’re all holding our breaths a little bit. And I look forward to connecting with you all on the next season of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast.

[00:00:00] David: I think it’s important to recognize, and I think everyone can fall victim to this in different areas of life, but when you get an answer that doesn’t make sense to you, that is not your fault. To the extent there is a fault, it’s the person who’s trying to communicate to you that is not meeting your needs in terms of how they are communicating that piece of information. And that ambiguous communication might be an intentional strategy on the part of the salesperson.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Lindsay Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today, I am excited to have Dave Frank back on the podcast. We are digging into a topic that is so relevant to so many of the students, that go through Money Skills for Therapists. and I know folks listening to this podcast, which is balancing debt repayment.

[00:01:10] How do you figure out how much to focus on paying down debt? How do you balance that with your life in needs life? We talked today about separating those emotional components, the shaming that can happen around debt, the big voices in the financial space that make debt a shameful thing, and how that impacts our relationship to debt versus the actual cost of debt, which is the literal interest cost, understanding those two things when it comes to your debt.

[00:01:36] We talk about the difference between simple interest and compound interest. So we get a little technical today. Dave gives a great, really straightforward explanation of the difference between those two things, and understanding what kind of debt you have and how that debt is going to act over time.

[00:01:50] That can help you understand how to prioritize paying down debt. And generally exploring the idea that these things are often simpler than we think that they are. And if there is complexity, if you’re being given complexity by a financial coach or professional… if they’re making something seem very confusing and opaque you just need to trust them. If you get any kind of confused vibes and something feels unclear, you should take that as good information.

[00:02:19] That’s a good red flag, especially being the communication professionals that many folks who listen to this podcast are. So lots and lots of ground covered today. Here is my conversation with Dave Frank. 

[00:02:46] Linzy: So, David, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:49] David: Thanks so much. I’m excited to be here.

[00:02:50] Linzy: I am excited to have you here. The conversation that we’re planning, to start to dig into today, one of the things we’ve talked about talking about is a topic that on reflection, I’ve covered many times in coaching conversations on this podcast, which is about debt pay down. Something that I see in my students sometimes, folks who are in Money Skills for Therapists is it can be very stressful having debt.

[00:03:15] And it can kind of hang over your head, especially types of debt that are like student debt or consumer debt, like mortgages inevitable part of being a grown-up.

[00:03:22] In fact, we see a mortgage as a symbol of success in adulthood. Like, Hey, 500,000 dollar loan.

[00:03:27] High five! You’re a grownup. But when we have other types of debt, like that, as I mentioned, the student loan I noticed has a lot of charges consumer debt, like any credit card debt or a line of credit can have a lot of weight for people.

[00:03:40] And then there can be a lot of urgency around the desire to pay it down or pay it down faster than the schedule. And so I wanted to dig in with being someone who helps therapists with the personal finance side of things on your thoughts of how do you balance this? How do you balance paying down debt and knowing what is strategic versus having money to live life, like holding both of these things at the same time?

[00:04:05] David: Yeah. It’s such a great topic, and just as you were sort of teeing up this conversation, what came to my mind is that I think sometimes what can happen is that earlier in our lives we are perhaps a little bit less focused on some of our finances. And so maybe we accrue some debt, and we develop some… I don’t even like the word bad habits, but we learned some lessons and we did some things.

[00:04:29] So we’re kind of almost at one end of the behavioral spectrum if you will. And then all of a sudden we realized, wait a minute, something’s not working here for me. And so now I’m going to fix it, and I’m going to fix all the things overnight. And we quickly go all the way to the other end of the spectrum. If we start to dive into the world of personal finance online and some of the bigger voices out there, they do

[00:04:53] like demonize debt and make it seem like it is the worst thing in the world. And so, yeah, especially consumer debt and, and student loan debt… They can be very triggering, and there’s a lot of shaming sort of around having debt as well. And so I think that can be a different type of danger, like racking up a bunch of debt without really thinking of it is a bit dangerous, but equally paying debt down aggressively and quickly without being thoughtful about it is, I would argue, equally dangerous, just sort of in a slightly different way.

[00:05:26] And so I think, as with most if not all things in life, the trick is to find the balance, is to find the middle ground or the middle path. And so that’s, in general, how I try to coach people.

[00:05:39] Linzy: Yeah. And I love your point there because this is something that certainly in my work with finances over the last few years, I’ve started to pull apart with students when they have charge around debt is there’s two different pieces here. One is the narrative around the debt. And as you say, there’s a lot of narratives around debt out there now that are very shaming.

[00:05:56] Like it’s a moral issue to have debt and I think some of the larger voices in the financial space can be rather conservative voices, Christian conservative like there is a real kind of like intense morality infused into it, even if it’s not named.

[00:06:09] It’s there, right? That it is bad. You are bad. You are not in control, is kind of the, the messaging in that. So that creates an emotional weight to the debt, and that’s part of it. But then the other part is the actual cost of debt, right, which is as you mentioned earlier in life when you don’t have so much money… you know, when I look back on some years in my 20s, I’m amazed I got through.

[00:06:28] I’m like, how did I live on 11,000?

[00:06:31] David: Amen. 

[00:06:31] Linzy: I’m not sure. I think it was probably cause my parents bought me dinner sometimes, and bought me a winter coat. You know, like that, like truly is what got me through. And so it is very normal that in our earlier years, we tend to earn less. That’s just normal for all career paths.

[00:06:43] accumulate more debt, and not necessarily think about our future. And then you, you can end up with these, these debts, right? A large student loan too. Like I think the way the student loan, industry works, if we could call it that, you know, where they’re just like, Hey, here’s a hundred thousand dollars.

[00:06:56] You’re like, what? Amazing. You know, the free money feeling that can come with that can leave us with a lot of debt and debt comes with a literal cost. It just literally costs you money. And that’s kind of the other side of when you’re talking about the danger of the debt, that’s what I would see as the danger.

[00:07:12] Is that what you’re referring to just like, it costs interest to have debt? 

[00:07:15] David: Just I mean, it’s just an expense. There’s like, it costs interest.so I, the distinction I make is, is just sort of, exactly what you said is that when we come to financial matters, there are two sides or two pieces of it. Part of the work is internal work, sort of like our emotional reaction, the stories that we’re telling ourselves about our behavior and our future and all that.

[00:07:35] And then there’s the external work off of, you know, what are the accounts and the amounts and the dollars and interest and, and all of that stuff. And the external part also includes what is the right approach and path for you. So, that’s really what a financial plan is. I mean, I’m a financial planner.

[00:07:52] I put together financial plans for folks. And that’s just a holistic approach that looks at all of the elements of your life and says, okay, given what you want to do in life, what’s important to you, how you’re working your family status, the reality of what your today looks like, including how much debt you have, what is the best way to, to move forward?

[00:08:13] We can’t change the past, but we can change how we move forward. So I think that’s just sort of like the framing. It’s just like, let’s, let’s work to sort of forgive ourselves for our past mistakes. Because guess what?

[00:08:24] Anytime you’re dealing with a new area of life in any capacity, we make mistakes because it’s new for us. So why would money and borrowing money be any different? Like, of course, it wouldn’t. So, what I always say is, hey, when I talk to a lot of my clients, they’re, they’re therapists, right?

[00:08:39] Most of them have their therapist. So stuff will come up as we’re working through it. And I’ll, you know, talk about it a little bit and I’ll be like great. So we’ve identified some amazing things for you to go out and talk to your therapist about; what we’re going to work on is the sort of external piece.

[00:08:56] And I’m always happy to have an internal conversation, but I want to be clear that I’m not the person for that, right? Like I’m not a mental health professional, and it will be our work together, our external financial work will be much more powerful if you are also doing some of the internal work with your therapist or maybe you even want to find a specific financial therapist, which is something that’s out there. But yeah, let’s like think about this thoughtfully So like let’s just look at the debt and figure out what makes sense to do.

[00:09:23] Linzy: Yeah, that holistic view. Because I think about what can happen with debt, and if I think about some of these coaching conversations that I’ve had with folks before, there are two that come to mind, I’ll just mention for folks who are listening to the podcast, there was a coaching conversation I had with Jeanette Dove, another one with Aaron Davis, a couple of previous episodes, where we dug into this question of, yeah, holistically, what does the debt mean in your life?

[00:09:44] Right? And then what is the importance of paying down the credit card super fast compared to having a bit of an emergency fund at home or your kids being able to play hockey this season or not, right? Because something that I think about, too, as a parent, and I know lots of folks who listen to this podcast are also parents, is it is this very specific season of life, this chapter, that is over fairly quickly, you know, there’s only really like a kind of like a 15, 18 year period where your kids are like with you, and they need everything and you’re like helping to shape, their growing up, their childhood years.

[00:10:16] And then that, that chapter of your life is over and you’re still a parent, but you now have adult children who are off doing their own thing. 

[00:10:22] David: Yeah, totally different. 

[00:10:23] Linzy: Money gets easier at that point, but when you’re in those years, it can feel impossible to balance the field trip with the rep hockey out of town tournament with the credit card that is going the wrong way.

[00:10:37] It’s getting bigger, not smaller. It can feel like this impossible bind for folks. And when you do have that intense charge around debt of like, I’m failing because I have this debt, right? This says bad things about me. I think it can make it, become more of a priority than maybe it ought to be for many folks when they think about what matters to them.

[00:10:58] David: Yeah. Yeah. So, let me just share sort of like, the approach that I kind of walk through with, with debt for people. So, you know, again, I work with therapists, so big surprise most folks show up, with debt, especially student loan debt. So there are lots of different sort of flavors of debt, I guess I would say, but I’ll put them in three kinds of general buckets.

[00:11:17] There’s a mortgage, which most folks have, if you’re a homeowner, you probably have a mortgage. Then there’s student loan debt, which, yeah, that’s that. And then there’s what I call consumer or revolving debt. So that would be credit card debt principally, but it could be, also maybe a home equity line of credit or something that you had to, had to draw on.

[00:11:36] So, I kind of say, in general, the mortgage, I kind of set it to the side, and I’m just like, you know, it is probably just okay. We’re not going to focus a lot on paying this down. And there are a lot of reasons for that. We will focus on paying it down, but just by what’s called an amortization schedule, which is just, it’s just a fancy table that determines what you pay every month and you’re sort of, every month making a flat payment.

[00:12:00] Part of that payment is going to pay down the principal, what you borrowed. That’s the other part of the payment is going to pay the bank for lending you money. That’s paying interest. So usually we just set that aside and say like, we don’t need to worry about that. And, in most cases, paying down your mortgage more quickly than that amortization schedule dictates, which 

[00:12:20] typically 30 years, is usually probably not the smartest financial move. And we can talk more about that in a little bit. But so like, let’s set that aside. The only time it makes sense to look at a mortgage is, you know, sometimes we just find there is what I might call sort of a structural issue in, in a financial plan, or in your financial life, where your income just can’t support the mortgage that you’ve got and like that’s not a fun conversation or spot to be in. But if you find yourself just doing a lot of work around your budget and debt pay down And you just can’t seem to stop racking up debt. Probably there’s either a structural financial issue, so that’s an external issue also, or there is an internal financial issue that’s kind of sabotaging you.

[00:13:03] So that’s a time to do a little bit more work. I think sometimes in that situation, there’s a desire to find a magic bullet solution. It’s like, I just have to find the right product or the right strategy to solve this problem. When in fact, it’s just a simple problem. Not simple to solve, not comfortable to confront necessarily, but it’s a more basic problem.

[00:13:23] You don’t need to find a fancy strategy to solve it. So I kind of went off on a tangent but like mortgage debt is generally not so bad student loan debt is equally generally not so bad. There are a lot of alternatives and complex alternatives to deal with student loan debt. For student loan debt, it’s just like I just want folks to be looking at it and let’s think about it I mean, then there’s the last piece that consumer revolving debt or credit card debt.

[00:13:47] And that is certainly the most expensive form of debt, by which I mean, the interest rate is going to be the highest. So that means it’s expensive to have. That high interest rate makes it even more difficult to pay off. So I think if there is consumer or revolving debt with higher interest rates, that’s what I’d like to focus on first.

[00:14:05] Those other categories, student loans, mortgages, let’s just pay those by the terms that the lender has given us. Let’s focus on consumer debt or credit card debt, and then let’s be balanced about it. Because debt, as you said, Linzy, there are moral judgments around it, but at the end of the day, debt isn’t good or bad.

[00:14:22] It’s just a tool. It’s an available tool out there. And there are some circumstances in which it makes a lot of sense and can be very helpful. And I am a huge fan of the sort of when you’re working to pay down that type of debt to split your goals. Yes, be paying down the credit card debt. And yes, also be building up an emergency fund. Because if you’re paying down debt as aggressively as you can and not putting any money towards an emergency fund, well, guess what?

[00:14:49] Something’s just going to happen again and you’re going to end up back in debt like that. I’ve seen that happen so many times. It’s not necessarily bad. It’s just sort of what’s happening. You’re kind of learning, but I think building up liquidity and by with that, I mean, kind of having an emergency fund is important for everyone. It’s particularly important for those of us who are self-employed and any therapist and private practice, whether you’re a group practice owner or a solo practitioner,

[00:15:16] You’re a small business person like you’re in business for yourself, and having personal liquidity funds in addition to potential business emergency funds really can make a big difference and help reduce stress overall.

[00:15:28] Linzy: Absolutely, and what I see as the biggest cost for folks who are doing the aggressive debt pay down and then end up needing to put money back into debt because their stove breaks or their car needs to be repaired, is that it’s demoralizing. It’s just so defeating when you’ve been working so hard, and you’ve been sacrificing so much, you’re like not going out for that coffee, and you’re not buying the groceries you want to try to hit this goal, and then you see yourself get knocked back a few pegs.

[00:15:55] Like, that, I think, is the cost of it, is when we become so stubborn or single-minded about something, and we make it, I would argue, more important than it really ought to be in the context, you know… in the holistic view of our life, that it sucks to be defeated,

[00:16:11]  and then, and then you’re like, are you going to go back to being as tight again?

[00:16:16] Like, do you get back on the horse and keep being like, this is the most important thing in my life? This is my top priority paying down this debt. Yeah. So that, that’s what I see is that, and then eventually I think folks end up just kind of giving up when you go all or nothing. Eventually, you go with nothing, and you’re like, I, that I just can’t pay down this debt. Whereas with that middle road, you know… And I think this is where you and I, vibe in a lot of ways is we’re both kind of, I think, balanced middle road people, allows you to still see yourself making progress.

[00:16:43] But as you said, you’re building this financial stability in this other way, which means that if your stove breaks, you’ll still end up spending money to buy a new stove, but you won’t see your debt going up again, right? In some ways, the cash is the same. The numbers might be the same, but the emotional experience is very different when you don’t feel like you’ve just lost, been defeated, or failed again, right?

[00:17:05] This I think is the narrative that comes up for folks.

[00:17:08] David: Yeah, and as you mentioned that… it’s just such a human experience, right, of trying something new, and it fails, and it being difficult, and getting discouraged, and then going back to your quote-unquote old ways, and then feeling bad about that. I think one of the most important tools or powerful interventions that folks can employ for themselves is just bringing someone else. 

[00:17:31] into this relationship between you and money, whether that’s, you know… some good financial planners and advisors do some work like this, although not all of them. There’s also a lot of financial sort of coaches, out there, Just bringing someone that you can trust… and that is a little bit of a trick is finding someone that you can trust. Bringing someone in this conversation, so you can be just like, help me stay on track here. Help me figure out when, I mean, I say to clients all the time. You inevitably hit road bumps here. That’s just the nature of the work; it’s the nature of life, right?

[00:18:03] It’s just like, you will just get discouraged. It’s almost kind of like the stages of change or what is it? 

[00:18:08] I think that traditionally that like didn’t have a stage for relapse. But I think that typically relapse, sort of like just backtracking a bit, is just part of it, and it’s not that you’re broken, or that you’re somehow wrong or incapable.

[00:18:23] You’re just going through that particular stage of change. And it’s just like, Oh, okay. What can I learn here? Like, what am I learning about what’s happening?

[00:18:31] Linzy: And I’ve seen versions of the stages of change. I’m thinking about, you know, some handout that I saw 10 years ago where it’s, it’s not relapse, it’s recycle, where you’re recycling old.

[00:18:38] behaviors, which is extra therapist y. Let’s take out all the weight. 

[00:18:42] David: I like that. 

[00:18:42] Linzy: You’re just recycling old behaviors.

[00:18:44] You’re going back to what you know best. And I think that’s so true. When you can recognize that that’s part of the process, you can make peace…

[00:18:52] David: Yes,

[00:18:52] Linzy: Right? And get back to what you were, the bigger goal in mind. And as we’re talking about debt pay down, something else that I think is helpful for us to think about and talk about is, Simple interest, compound interest, like when you’re paying down debt, does it make sense to still put money into your investments?

[00:19:11] What is your thinking on that? Because I’ve noticed myself, as I’ve, I’ve taken on, a debt related to a backyard cottage that we built. Construction is its special beast when it comes to cost overages, right?

[00:19:22] David: Sure. 

[00:19:22] Linzy: And so we built this backyard cottage a couple of years ago, it’s supposed to cost 200, 000.

[00:19:27] It cost us 265, 000, obviously that 65, 000 had to come from somewhere. So we had a HELOC. And I remember when we went to sign our first HELOC, the mortgage, I should say the woman at the bank who is some sort of bank professional, partially sales, let me tell you. She was like, well, yeah, you can have this HELOC, but also there’s this extra line of credit for 30, 000.

[00:19:51] And I was like, no, no way. We’re not doing this. But my partner was like, well, you never know, like we might need it. And we did, we did need it because our project went 65, 000 over. So I have this HELOC that is not insignificant. It has no emotional weight for me, but I have a plan to pay it down.

[00:20:07] But something that I’ve decided to do is to simultaneously still put money into our investments. So I’m walking this middle road again, both and. And part of my rationale around that is because of simple interest versus compound interest. I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on balancing not just debt pay down with life, but debt pay down with saving for your future, like retirement savings.

[00:20:29] How do you think about these two things side by side?

[00:20:32] David: Yeah. It’s a great question. Maybe I’ll just start with sort of, a hopefully understandable explanation of the difference between simple interest and compound interest. So simple interest, perhaps ironically named, I’m not sure how simple it is, but like, Yeah. It says the interest is only accruing on the principal.

[00:20:52] So let me explain what that means. So let’s say we make an investment of 100 into the stock market. That 100 is the principal. So then let’s say you earn 10 percent interest on that investment in the first year. So 10 percent of 100 is 10. So your principal was 100. The first year’s worth of interest growth that you’ve experienced is the 10.

[00:21:15] So that’s 10 percent of that original principle So if we were living in a simple interest world, in the subsequent year, you would earn just another ten dollars interest because you’re earning interest on that original principle or the original investment. So year one ten percent, ten dollars. Year two, ten percent, 10.

[00:21:37] That’s simple interest because it’s just looking at the principle and it’s ignoring the interest that’s building up over time. In contrast, compound interest means that you are, something is compounding; it’s multiplying; it’s becoming sort of geometric in growth. And what that means is that you are not only earning interest on that principle, But you are also earning interest on the past interest that you have gained.

[00:22:03] So in this simple a hundred-dollar investment example, in year one, we get 10 percent of the initial principal because we’re just getting started. So that’s 10 bucks at the end of year one, we have 110 now sitting in that account. Over year two, yes, we are earning that 10 percent on the initial principle of 100, and we are earning interest on the 10 of interest we earned in the previous year.

[00:22:29] And so that just continues to happen at all the interest that you’ve earned in subsequent years, in future years is also earning interest. And that’s what’s compounding. That’s compound interest, and that’s what can be so powerful and counterintuitive about long-term investing. You can’t believe how quickly compound interest will build up, but it takes quite a few years for that to kick into gear, for the power of compound interest to show. 

[00:22:59] Linzy: It’s kind of like a snowball, right? It starts small, but the bigger it is, the more that it accumulates, and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But yeah, it’s a slow-roll, slow-rolling snowball to start. It’s not always obvious at the beginning just how powerful that is.

[00:23:13] David: Yeah, and so that’s one of the reasons why it does… Compound interest, I mean, is typically one of the reasons why we say that starting to invest for your long-term goals like retirement earlier is always better because it gives you more time for that compound interest to start working.

[00:23:31] And so that, that is one of the reasons why I think it does make sense, in most cases, to balance things between paying down debt and building up retirement savings. Though the one caveat that I give to that is that, retirement accounts or retirement plans that you can put money into are great, and they have a lot of advantages.

[00:23:51] One of the disadvantages is that it is typically pretty difficult to get your money back out, so putting a lot of money into a retirement plan or any other spot where it is very difficult and or costly to get your investment back out when you have a lot of expenses like younger kids, or kids in college when you’ve got a lot of debt that you need to be taking care of, it’s not that you shouldn’t be putting any money into those types of investments.

[00:24:17] It’s that you do need to be very cautious and mindful.

[00:24:21] Linzy: Yeah, and I know in Canada, we have the TFSAs, tax-free savings accounts, and RRSPs. And RRSPs are the ones that are locked, where it’s like, you can’t take that out unless you’re retiring, or you’re like a first-time homebuyer. I think those are the only exceptions. Whereas a TFSA has different tax benefits.

[00:24:38] You don’t have to pay taxes on the money you earn in that investment, but you can also take it out. There’s a lot more flexibility there. And what I generally hear from Canadian financial advisors. Advising people is to start with your TFSAs first anyway like max those out first unless you’re earning at a high-income bracket, which is not most folks listening to this podcast.

[00:24:58] That’s usually not a problem therapists have where we’re like, Oh, but I make 300, 000 a year. There are some for sure, but that’s not most of us.

[00:25:04] David: For sure. 

[00:25:05] Linzy: But, so starting with those TFSAs first is usually the most strategic. And also you do have that flexibility because what I’m hearing is like, don’t lock that money up too tightly if you’re going to need it. 

[00:25:15] David: Right.

[00:25:16] Linzy: If you do put it into a 401k, my understanding, would be an equivalent. 

[00:25:18] David: That’s right.

[00:25:20] Linzy: Not easy to get it back out.

[00:25:23] David: Yeah, I’m not familiar with the different structures available in Canada, but it sounds a little bit like the TFSA is similar to like a Roth retirement account.

[00:25:32] Linzy: That would be the equivalent.

[00:25:33] David: And yeah, the other one would be a traditional retirement account. Although the TFSA sounds like it’s a little bit more flexible than a Roth account.

[00:25:41] So the Roth is reasonably flexible like you can get your contributions back out, but you can’t take your earnings until later in life.

[00:25:50] Linzy: Okay, I think the TFSA is more flexible, but similar I think these things are analogous enough conceptually.

[00:25:57] David: Oh, yeah. 

[00:25:58] Linzy: Starting with that more flexible investment is the place to start, again, because of that compounding. And what I noticed for myself too, emotionally, if we want to talk about the emotional stories with debt is the nice thing about paying down the debt.

[00:26:10] In a sustainable way, like paying down this HELOC sustainably and saving for retirement, I get to see myself saving for retirement. 

[00:26:17] I could be like, this HELOC is the most important thing in my life, and we’re not going on vacation, and we’re not saving for retirement until it’s gone. Like, if I had a more shame-based narrative around it, I could make it painful.

[00:26:29] Like that, that HELOC could hang over my head every day and every night. But it just doesn’t because I’ve run the numbers on how long it’s going to take to pay it off. I have a monthly payment we make that’s very sustainable. And I’m seeing my partner and I saving for retirement. And I’m running the rule of 72 in my head,

[00:26:44] which helps you understand how long it’s going to take your money to double. And so I’m thinking about, okay, this 750 that I put away a month is going to double in 10 years, and that’s a much better use of my money than paying down this other debt as fast as I can. Right? I think it’s taken me a minute to get there,

[00:27:04] but I do find it gives me enormous peace to be able to hold both of these things simultaneously.

[00:27:09] David: Yeah, well said.  I want to touch back to something just regarding compound and simple interest. So the way we were talking about compound interest is in the area of, investing or savings, the other area where interest rates show up, or interest shows, is on the debt side when you’re borrowing.

[00:27:28] The idea of compound interest isn’t so much a thing in debt. And let me explain, what I mean by that. If you take the mortgage interest, just like the, the most kind of basic debt that we’re more perhaps more familiar with, or kind of basic sort of kind of quote-unquote, good debt or more sustainable debt, you’re borrowing a certain amount of money, and then you’re paying interest on that principle.

[00:27:49] It’s like that initial balance. So that amortization schedule that I mentioned the bankers come up with They’re just like great over the next 30 years, you’re every month going to make a payment. The payment is going to be the same It is going to pay down both principal and interest. In the beginning, you’re paying a lot of interest and not paying down very much principal toward the end of those 30 years Each payment is kind of reversed in terms of where the money is going. It’s paying just a little bit of interest and a lot down in payment.

[00:28:18] And the reason that happens is because as you pay things down, there is less interest. You’re just paying interest on that principal amount. And every month you’re whittling down that balance. So each month your interest expense goes down a little bit. So we can just think of that as simple interest, again, meaning you’re just paying interest on that initial principal amount, the initial amount borrowed. The only time that compound interest works to your disadvantage in the debt world is when you’re not able to fully pay enough money for interest. I’ll explain what I mean by that in a second. That most commonly happens in the world of credit cards.

[00:28:58] So if you’ve got like ten thousand dollars on a credit card, that might have a 26 percent interest rate like that’s not unheard of. So like there’s a huge amount of interest. And you will have a minimum payment that the lender dictates you make in some cases a lot of cases actually that minimum payment is not going to fully pay for the interest that you’ve incurred during that month.

[00:29:20] So the balance grows. So you haven’t earned interest. You have sort of been hit with some interest. And so at the beginning of the month, your balance was 10, 000. Let’s say just to keep things simple over the month, you were charged a thousand dollars in interest. And you only paid 500 for example. Well, there’s an additional 500 of interest that you were charged that you didn’t pay off.

[00:29:46] So now that’s part of the principal balance, and so now that’s bad compounding. So it is out there but for student loans, for mortgages, compound interest isn’t… It isn’t a thing. 

[00:29:58] Linzy: Yeah, and I was wondering that in the world of student loans because the student loan landscape for Americans is fairly different than it is for Canadians. But something that I’ve heard of for Americans that I’m curious what is, is I have heard of folks where their loan payment is low enough that their student loan is growing, not shrinking.

[00:30:18] What is at work there? 

[00:30:22] David: The student loan landscape is so, so, so complicated. But yeah, so what’s happening there, there’s exactly what I was just describing. In the U S, there’s something known as income-driven repayment plans or IDR plans, which an IDR is not an actual plan, it is a category of plan.

[00:30:40] So there are different types of IDR. So if you just say I have an IDR, I’m like, okay, well, which one? That doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but at any rate, the idea is that we are not going to force you to pay back the student loan according to an amortization schedule like a mortgage. Instead, we’re going to allow you to make a lower payment based on how much money you’re making.

[00:31:00] So, in some cases, yes, the interest will be more than the payment you’re making, so the balance does grow, just like a credit card might grow in the example I was using before, but the interest is simple, so you do not pay interest on the interest that’s been accrued but not paid. 

[00:31:20] Linzy: Right. 

[00:31:21] David: But there is an exception to that. When you consolidate your loan, or sometimes when you change the income-driven repayment plan that you are on, sometimes that interest will be what they call capitalization.

[00:31:32] And once the unpaid interest capitalizes, then and only then does it become part of the principal balance that is dictating how much interest you are paying. 

[00:31:42] Linzy: Right. So it can get turned into principal if you consolidate your debt and Turn it into a different type of debt. 

[00:31:46] David: That’s right. But if you are on one of those plans and you see your balance growing, yes, I get that that’s disheartening. 

[00:31:56] David: And Biden’s new plan that’s being challenged in the court would, would eliminate some of that. It would eliminate all of it. We’ll see if it happens. We’ll see what happens. But, even though your balance is growing, your interest burden isn’t getting bigger. So it’s not as bad as it might seem. 

[00:32:11] Linzy: Okay. Okay. That’s helpful to hear. Because I think like, you know, it’s helpful to hear that although it’s growing, it is different than that credit card rate growing.

[00:32:19] David: It is. That’s right. 

[00:32:20] Linzy: Yeah, So it looks the same, but there are different things at play. And I think that’s where folks being able to have conversations with people like yourself who speak policy and bureaucracy cause these things they don’t make them transparent.

[00:32:34] And, I would say to some extent, they’re not transparent on purpose, right? Like in complexity, there are a lot of things that can be hidden, which makes it hard for consumers to make good choices. Or maybe you just don’t even have good choices you can make, you know, you have to take what is available.

[00:32:47] David: Yeah. Sometimes that is the case.

[00:32:48] Linzy: Yeah, but I think that’s where, for folks who have debt, taking some time to understand what is your debt and how it works. Is it simple? Is it compound? Your student loan is growing, but what does that mean financially?

[00:32:59] David: That’s not the worst.

[00:33:00] Linzy: Can help you make those balanced decisions we talked about earlier.

[00:33:03] David: Yeah, and complexity is a great point. Complexity is typically not your friend. There are a lot of financial products and investments out there that are so confusing, that is just generally in the complexity, there’s almost always something hidden. The student loan world.

[00:33:20] I think there’s, there’s a lot of kind of like governmental reasons for that. I mean, it’s just a mess. We’ll see what happens, but you reminded me of something, just in general, like when anyone is working with a financial professional or considering working with a financial professional, I always encourage you to ask two sorts of interrelated questions.

[00:33:37] Number one is how do I pay you and how much, like, how much are you going to charge me? And then you’ll get a piece of information. That’s an important question to ask, but the second question is maybe a more important one. And that is, tell me all the other ways you will earn money in our relationship.

[00:33:55] So that will help you understand what commissions are they going to get, what conflicts of interest they have in terms of the advice that they’re offering you. And that’s an important piece to understand because anytime a service is offered for a very low price, or something feels too good to be true, you know what happens when things are seemingly too good to be true.

[00:34:16] Linzy: Yes.

[00:34:16] David: They almost always are.

[00:34:17] Linzy: Absolutely. I saw an email from, Julie Herres, a colleague of both of us, last week where she used the example of her friend’s toddler as a good reminder to all of us.

[00:34:26] David: Yeah, I saw that. 

[00:34:27] Linzy: Always ask why? I thought that was such a sweet phrase.

[00:34:28] David: Yes! That’s so great.

[00:34:30] Linzy: Just keep asking your questions like, how do you get paid?

[00:34:32] And are there other ways you get paid? And like, just really letting yourself ask every and all questions of financial professionals because something that could happen, and I recorded feelings and finances like short answer episode recently about this is like, we can sometimes fall back into this teacher-student kind of relationship or like where there’s like an authoritarian relationship where we’re afraid to ask questions.

[00:34:54] We don’t want to look dumb. We’re like, okay, they seem to know what they’re doing. They have a nice desk, so clearly they’ve, you know, figured things out in life. But remember that you are the consumer, like you are the customer and you get to ask questions. And if you don’t like the answers to those questions, or if you don’t like the fact that they’re not answering your questions, and you’re getting a feeling, I don’t know if I trust this person.

[00:35:13] You can walk, right? Like you are the person who holds the power in that relationship.

[00:35:18] David: Yeah, .. I think it’s important to recognize, and I think everyone can fall victim to this in different areas of life, but when you get an answer that doesn’t make sense to you, that is not your fault. To the extent there is a fault, it’s the person who’s trying to communicate you to you. 

[00:35:32] is not meeting your needs in terms of how they are communicating that piece of information. And that ambiguous communication might be an intentional strategy on the part of the salesperson. So it is okay just to be like, that doesn’t make sense to me. You’re going to have to explain again. 

[00:35:46] Linzy: Totally. Well, you know, and for all the generalizations I would make about therapists, one I would never make is that therapists are dumb. Therapists are not dumb people.

[00:35:55] David: That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely.

[00:35:58] Linzy: We are bright people who tend to be able to be very perceptive and pull together complex information in fractions of seconds to be able to do the work that we do.

[00:36:05] So if somebody’s communicating, and it’s feeling unclear, you are a professional communicator. Something is wrong. Right? So like trust your skills and instincts and your gut, more than what somebody is telling you if it doesn’t feel right. So David, thank you. I so appreciate you coming back on the podcast today.

[00:36:22] I so appreciate you having this conversation with me. For folks who are interested in hearing more about you and what you do, where can they find you?

[00:36:31] David: Yeah. So, I am a financial planner for therapists. So my mission in life is helping therapists understand, the external financial world while sort of honoring their internal experiences around it and just putting in place solid, smart financial plans that allow them to realize their goals in life.

[00:36:48] And if you want to learn more about me or just see it. A ton of free resources that I put together, visit my website. That website is turningpointhq. com. So that’s the name of my firm turning point. So it’s turning point HQ, like the abbreviation for headquarters. com.

[00:37:03] Linzy: Love that. Thanks, David.

[00:37:05] David: Absolutely. Thank you. 

[00:37:21] Linzy: One of the key points that I’m certainly taking away from this conversation today is perhaps an affirmation that I received from Dave. Often the middle road is the right road to walk when it comes to balancing your financial goals and your well-being. So for folks who are listening, if you have any debt, and you’re feeling driven to pay down that debt,

[00:37:43] Take some time to do the math and think about what would be the actual financial benefit of paying down that debt faster, especially if it’s simple debt, right? If it’s not debt, that’s going to be growing, if you’re not having to pay interest on interest, as Dave talked about, what is the actual number, the financial benefit, of paying down that debt faster compared to putting money in your investments where it’s compounding, right, where you’re earning interest on interest and that money is growing.

[00:38:09] I certainly in my own life have made the decision that I like to have my foot in a little bit of both. That’s very much my personality, my style, but also it is more strategic, certainly in my case, to be putting money in my investments and know that I’m getting that compound interest and knowing, you know, 20 years from now when I retire that that money is going to grow much, much more than the positive impact I would get from paying down debt.

[00:38:34] So take the time to understand your numbers, think about your own needs, your emotional needs, and the actual numbers, and decide how you want to balance these things in your own life. You were giving yourself such a gift of clarity when you take time to understand your numbers and interrogate some of your stories, right?

[00:38:52] Don’t make decisions simply to try to decrease your anxiety or shift out of a story that you’re bad or that you’re failing, but interrogate those stories. Don’t let those stories run you, alongside making informed financial decisions that have to do with real numbers. It is a huge gift to yourself, and especially to your future self who, you know, will be living off the money that you put aside now in the future for you to take time and be with these things.

[00:39:17] So I appreciated Dave’s perspective on this today. If you are enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. If you’re interested in working with me and getting my support in a community of lovely, supported, as I mentioned, smart therapists who are also working on building a better relationship with their money and developing calm and clarity around their private practice business finances, you can check out my masterclass.

[00:39:46] You can think about that as my intake for the course. It’s your chance to learn about my approach, learn about how I teach, and learn about everything in the course. And it’s also your invitation to join us in Money Skills for Therapists, which is my foundational course, where we do all this work with folks.

[00:40:02] So if you are interested in working with me, you can click on the link in the show notes to check out my masterclass and learn more about how to develop common confidence with your money and learn more about my course Money Skills for Therapists. Thank you so much for joining me this season. It’s been another great season of the podcast and we will see you next season. Thanks for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello, and welcome back to another Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. These are our short and sweet Friday episodes, where I answer questions from you lovely folks, the listeners of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And today’s question is from our very own operations and student care coordinator, Christelle Manke.

[00:00:21] Here’s Christelle’s question.

[00:00:22] Christelle: Hi, Linzy, and listeners of Money Scale for Therapists. This is Christelle, and I have a question that I hear often from people that are interested in taking the course Money Scale for Therapists but are not quite ready yet. And most of them don’t have yet a private practice and they’re working in agencies or for group practices, and they wonder how hard it’s going to be to start a private practice, and if it will make sense for them

[00:00:58] financially to make that shift. Because they don’t know what it looks like, they don’t jump, and make that decision. And so I wonder if you could give us some guidance on what to look for to know if your current situation is not working and it is time to start a private practice that will take care of you financially.

[00:01:22] And like one of the questions I heard was from 1 to 10, how hard is it to start a private practice? And I know that numbers will be very different from a person to another, but I wonder if you could give us a sense, on how hard is it to start a private practice in your opinion and in your experience.

[00:01:42] Thank you for sharing that wisdom.

[00:01:44] Linzy: Okay. This is a great question, Christelle. And there’s a few thoughts floating around right away as I think about this question. So the first thing is thinking about when is it time to start a private practice? If you’re in an agency or a group practice setting and you’re not happy, how do you know that it’s time to step out, or how do you start to step out?

[00:02:04] And the way that I see it, there’s two ways to start a private practice. The first way is the toe dip. You know, starting a private practice on the side, starting to see some clients privately an evening or two a week, maybe out of pocket through connections that you already have, you know, just starting to let folks know, Hey, I’m seeing a couple of clients

[00:02:22] on Tuesdays, by maybe subletting from a colleague of yours or just seeing folks virtually online. That’s something that has made starting private practice so much easier in the last few years, now that online therapy has become the default rather than something unusual. So that’s the first way to start to get into dipping your toes into private practice is just to start to see a few clients at a time.

[00:02:44] And I would say that that relatively speaking is easier because you can build up your confidence and skills gradually as you still have your regular paycheck from your day job. Right. And what I think is really affirming often for therapists who do that is they realize, Oh, people are willing to pay me this full fee amount, or all the money could actually come to me,

[00:03:07] and this is not as hard as I think. And we’ll get into the hard question in a second. So that’s, I would say that’s an easier route to starting a private practice if where you are is tolerable enough that you can stay there for a little while, is to do that, that toe dip and just let yourself see yourself, building up a practice gradually, but not making it your all or nothing.

[00:03:28] The second way of starting a private practice is the way that I started my private practice, which is what I call the jumping off a cliff method, where you just quit your job, because you’re not okay and you’re not happy and you can see that it’s impacting you in a way that’s not worthwhile, and you force yourself to make private practice work by giving yourself no other choice.

[00:03:47] This is the jumping off the cliff method. Also a friend of mine, I’ve heard her refer to it as burning the boats. This idea that, Vikings, when they used to siege, whatever the word would be on, you know, other islands, if they want to take over the island, they land on the shore and they burn the boats.

[00:04:03] So there’s no going back. You’re not dallying. You’re not toe dipping. You are fully in it. That’s the way that I started my own private practice. And that worked really well for me.There was a few reasons that worked for me. One is I needed to get out of where I was so badly that I was willing to just do it and take the risk.

[00:04:21] There was no going halfway. I had to find a way to make it work. It gave me the time and energy to just focus on building that. But also I had enough financial stability through some savings that I had, and through my partner’s income, that we could afford to do that, right? So that’s a huge part of the equation is what is your financial situation look like, and can you set yourself up to have some time to learn?

[00:04:43] Because I would say starting a private practice, hard is one word for it, mostly it’s just a lot of learning, right? The actual delivery of the service, the therapy itself, you know how to do that. Whether it’s mental health therapy, which it is for, I know, probably most folks listening to this podcast, or whether it’s another type of health practice that you have, you know how to actually do the service if you’re already doing it somewhere else.

[00:05:07] So it’s not as though you’re starting a business where you are learning how to do a skill for the first time. The skill you have, but it’s creating that business container around it, creating your systems, clear communication with your clients, laying out policies clearly. It’s those pieces that at first it feels like a never ending to do list of things to put in place that can feel hard, but there are things that you only have to do once.

[00:05:34] You only have to build the foundation of your business once. And then after that, you can tweak and improve, but you never have to do the full thing over again. Once you’ve built the foundation, you’re just continuing to build upwards from there. And so in terms of how hard that is, I think part of it is about what your emotional relationship to that work is.

[00:05:53] Surprise, surprise. So I would say for myself, starting a private practice was not hard. It was fun. It was exciting. It was energizing. It was liberating. It was all of those things. I remember having a conversation with my brother shortly after I had started my private practice, and I had almost no clients, maybe three clients at the time and saying to him that I was the happiest I had ever been.

[00:06:15] For me, immediately working for myself was a fit for my disposition and my energy and my needs. The relief of being out of somewhere that wasn’t working for me was certainly part of that, but getting to create a culture and be really intentional about what this business was going to look like and how I was going to communicate with people, what my policies were going to be, what my brand feel was going to be, learning how to talk about what I did in a way that made sense to people, you know, getting that elevator pitch down.

[00:06:40] All of it was learning, but it was all worthwhile, which meant that it didn’t feel hard. It felt challenging and interesting, but it didn’t feel hard.

[00:06:50] In terms of that zero to 10 or one to 10 scaling, Christelle, that’s so difficult because I think the biggest indicator is what is your relationship to that learning and that challenge? I would say in terms of effort, starting a private practice for most folks, especially if you’re going to go the jumping off a cliff, burning the boats route is probably a seven out of 10 effort.

[00:07:15] It’s effortful. There’s lots to do. There’s a big list. At first it can feel like a bit of a slog. Those early days where you’re just waiting for clients to call, and trying to get some traction off your Psychology Today profile, or you’re just networking, networking, networking, and planting seeds. And they haven’t come to fruition yet.

[00:07:30] Those days can be challenging, but they can also be exciting and fruitful. So I think so much of it is about the framing that you put around this. Why are you doing this? What does this mean to you? Can you lean into your gifts? Can you lean into the part of starting a practice that makes it worth it?

[00:07:47] You know, the freedom that you have, the ability to set the culture, the ability to practice with the folks you really want to practice with, set up a schedule that really works for you. The more you can connect with the possibilities and the power that you actually have when you are starting a private practice, that you don’t have an external boss anymore.

[00:08:04] You are the boss. You get to decide what your hours are, and you get to set a schedule that works for you. And you don’t have to exhaust yourself every day. And you get to stop and think about the numbers that will sustain you in your personal life, and you get to set up a schedule that will support those numbers while also supporting you.

[00:08:23] If you can really lean into the possibilities of that, then it is really exciting and empowering and a really rich time of opportunity. Are there going to be moments that feel terrifying? For sure. Are there going to be times where you wonder if you’re making a mistake? Definitely. Are there going to be fantasies about just going to work for somebody else because it’s easier?

[00:08:44] Probably. All of those things are true. And those are all normal. Cause we all have parts of us that are about escaping and keeping us safe and making life easy. But if you are connected with your why for doing this, and if you really own the power that you have when you start a private practice, I’m going to say that it is much more exciting and beautiful,

[00:09:06] and ultimately worthwhile, than it is hard. So that would be my answer. Seven out of 10, probably effort for most of us. But the hard is going to completely depend on how you relate to all of these tasks that eventually will lead to you building a practice that you really love and that can sustain you and your family.

[00:09:26] So that would be my, my initial thoughts on starting a private practice and what that looks like for, for most of us and how to make that an empowering experience. If you have a question that you would like me to answer on one of these feelings and finances episodes, all you need to do is click on the link in the show note, or go to our podcast page and scroll down a little bit.

[00:09:48] You will see a little record button. All you need to do is share your name, share your question. And I would be happy to answer it on one of our upcoming episodes of Feelings and Finances for the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Thanks for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Sara: I feel a sense of calm at the concept of, oh, there’s room on the team for a team member. That doesn’t mean a partner. It just means there’s sort of a next step, that would be important to take.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with a recent graduate of Money Skills for Therapists, Sara Nelson-Johns. Sara is lovely. And today we are digging into her side business that has sprung out of her main private practice. In her main private practice, she works with folks with ADHD, relationship challenges, and perfectionism, and out of that work, she has developed an adulting planner.

[00:01:21] I’m going to put a link for it in the show notes, for folks with ADHD to organize their lives in a way that works for their brains. So today, Sara and I talked about some of the dilemmas concerns, and questions she has about scaling that second business. We get into that fear of exposure, the fear of being invalidated, which is, I think, a very common thing that we therapist types experience when we start to be seen. It’s very safe to sit in a therapy room and have these very attuned, as we talked about today, basically quite controlled conversations with folks.

[00:01:52] It’s a big step, and it’s a different way of being in the world to put something out there to thousands of people, and not be able to control how they’re going to respond, or whether they find it helpful, or whether they get it or not. So we dig into that today as well. Then we started to explore and play with the idea of what scalable even means.

[00:02:11] What does Sara want her business to look like? Helping her to connect with what she wants in this chapter and season of her life. It’s so easy with scaling when we build something that is quote-unquote scalable to think that it has to be this big thing, to think we have to do it a certain way, to do it right.

[00:02:26] Sara and I dig in today to find out what the right next step for her in this business is and let herself lean into that. 

[00:02:34] You can also watch this coaching episode, if you want, on YouTube. All of our podcast episodes are now also on YouTube. So if you prefer to watch your podcasts, if you want to see Sara and I’s facial expressions, then you can also check out this episode on YouTube. Here is my coaching episode with Sara Nelson-Johns. 

[00:03:09] Linzy: So Sara, welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:11] Sara: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. 

[00:03:13] Linzy: I’m very happy to have you here. So to give folks a little bit of context, I think, on the work that you’ve done so far, before we dig into what you want to work on today, you finished Money Skills for Therapists. Where are we now in time? Was that like… 

[00:03:26] Sara: Five or six months 

[00:03:27] Linzy: I was going to say five or six months ago.

[00:03:29] Okay. So you did Money Skills for Therapists and focused on your private practice, but you also have a second business. You have, that dream kind of side hustle that many therapists want, and that’s what we’re going to focus on today.

[00:03:43] Tell me about your questions about this second business for us to dig into together today.

[00:03:48] Sara: My second business, I work with a business partner and she is the creative on it and I am the writer on it. So she handles design and artwork and software, and I handle all of the treatment interventions that we offer, which include a day planner for middle and high school students with ADHD, and an adulting planner for those that are in the adult world and don’t need semesters and things like that.

[00:04:17] And then we additionally have an emotions journal we’ve been working on that we want to release on a subscription

[00:04:22] basis. 

[00:04:23] Linzy: Okay. So this is like work that’s spun out of the clinical work that you do. 

[00:04:29] Sara: Yes

[00:04:31] Linzy: It’s a beautiful planner, by the way. 

[00:04:33] Sara: Thank you, it’s like writing down the interventions that I offer to clients.  For about seven years, I was doing ADHD interventions with schools and teachers and parents and kids, and I started to realize I was saying them all over and over again, just on one, and that didn’t feel good.

[00:04:55] But I wanted to get the Planner put together in a way that was accessible for a much wider audience but was the same interventions that I use in treatment.

[00:05:04] Linzy: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and I think this is, like, you’ve moved into that scalable space where you’ve taken that one-on-one conversation you’ve had over and over and over and over that works, and you’re turning it into something that could reach thousands of folks.

[00:05:17] Sara: Yeah, that word feels scary it just made my heart go whew.

[00:05:25] Linzy: Okay. So I think this is part of what we’re going to follow today. So tell me then about your dilemmas, or the stickiness with this second business at this point.

[00:05:35] Sara: One just very practical hitch is we need to put either money or time in, to make it big. 

[00:05:45] We can keep it small, and we can stay small. And we would be fine. But that goal of, we wanted to help more people with a very valuable and useful tool is going to involve time or money, and either one is going to impact my finances at home for a while until we either invest ourselves or get an investor.

[00:06:10] Linzy: Right. Okay. So there’s this, investment piece coming, an investment of either your time or your money to get where you want to go. And I mean, that’s a question here, Sara, is where do you want to go with this? What is your hope or your vision for it?

[00:06:26] Sara: we made it last year 

[00:06:27] Linzy: Okay. 

[00:06:28] Sara: And we sold it last year. Very small channels of marketing. Very, very small. We’d love for it to be regional or national marketing, and scale up the production of it. 

[00:06:42] Linzy: Okay.

[00:06:43] Sara: So it wouldn’t be made in my business partner’s basement. So that we’re not spending our time punching paper.

[00:06:51] Linzy: Yes, because right now you’re physically making the planners. 

[00:06:54] Sara: Yes, they’re handmade. They are artisan. 

[00:06:58] Linzy: I was going to say, yeah, beautiful. You can charge more for that, I hear. Okay. So right now, you’re making them by hand in your business partner’s basement. That’s not the long-term vision.

[00:07:08] You don’t plan to be doing that for the next 20 years. So it sounds like at the very least some, some manufacturing, right? Like getting them manufactured somewhere.

[00:07:16] Sara: Yeah. So it’s manufacturing, then there’s marketing, and then there’s the concept of this is the product, but the product is the design work and the intellectual property behind it. You receive a product, but the effort goes into all these other pieces about it. And so it’s not as simple as just being a planner.

[00:07:38] And I think I feel some confusion about how to sell a planner when it’s about treatment interventions. 

[00:07:45] I have some difficulty with it, I want to be able to sell the planner as a product, but the value is all in what you receive with the interventions and with the actual layout and design of the pages. Those are designed for people with ADHD.

[00:08:02] Linzy: Yes, and tell me what the dilemma is there. Like, what do you find difficult about this aspect?

[00:08:11] Sara: It’s overpriced for a planner. So I don’t think that we’re emphasizing enough, or effectively, that this comes out of many years of experience and that this is some very specialized content, and that we’re trying to give people the tools that if they put it into practice over the year, they’ll have better executive functioning skills.

[00:08:34] Linzy: Yes, what I’m hearing is the value of the product is really about your clinical expertise. Right? And your business partner’s creative gifts that can, can make that into something beautiful and usable. But this is about your seven-plus years of clinical interventions that you’ve done and the clinical expertise that you’re packaging up for folks to access.

[00:08:56] Sara: Yes.

[00:08:57] Linzy: Okay. And. that is an interesting piece to emphasize because as you say, like a planner itself, like I could go to the bookstore and buy a planner for 10 bucks,

[00:09:05] Sara: Yes, you can buy them on Amazon probably for seven. 

[00:09:08] Linzy: Yes, but that’s probably not going to be a very viable business model for you unless you’re going big scale, you don’t want to be selling these for 10, right? And what is the price point at this moment?

[00:09:23] Sara: For the adulting planner, it’s 45 and for the student planner, I believe it’s 38. The adulting planner has additional technology attached to it with QR codes.

[00:09:34] Linzy: Okay, because what I’m hearing here is, another kind of business dilemma, which is how you put across the value of what it is that you’ve created, to charge what makes sense for you to charge at this moment. Right. So that’s the one piece. And then I’m hearing there’s this other question about investing, right?

[00:09:50] Like if you want this to go big, you have to invest.

[00:09:53] Sara: And I think part of the value is then, you know, being okay with occupying that space personally because that means selling ourselves and our expertise and that feels like exposure.

[00:10:10] Linzy: Okay. Yeah. Let’s talk about that. Cause when we talked about scalable, too, that was not a word that made your heart happy. 

[00:10:18] Sara: I’m worried about losing control. 

[00:10:20] Linzy: Perfect, jumped right to the right to the core. Okay, so let’s talk about losing control. This is what I’m also thinking, too, as you’re talking about the value of the planner is really about your clinical expertise and your business partner’s creative gifts.

[00:10:33] It’s selling yourselves, right? Like what you offer, right? They’re basically in a way getting an experience of working with you through this mediated form, like through this book, this workbook that they get, right? They’re not all going to see you one-on-one for a session, but thousands of folks who buy this book and get these great interventions baked into their planner.

[00:10:51] So tell me then when you think about being seen, right, like owning this expertise that you bring to this product, what comes up for you? Like I’m hearing exposure. I think the word was naked. Tell me what is, your full response. Let’s dig into that.

[00:11:12] Sara: Vulnerable, I do worry about the imposter piece. That’s in there. That I’ll get called out or criticized or that someone will say I’ve done something bad. But I also think there’s that piece of like, if I put myself out there with something that I think is great and the world doesn’t, feels, oh, that’s like an ego blow. That would hurt a lot. This is like a baby that we made.

[00:11:39] Linzy: Okay. Gotcha. So there’s also this vulnerability around the product itself like you want it to be loved.

[00:11:46] Sara: We do, we want everybody to embrace it, and I think it’s beautiful.

[00:11:50] Linzy: Yes, which like every mother thinks that their baby is the cutest in the world. The reality is there are only a few babies that are the cutest baby in the world. Just statistically speaking. So with this, like, yeah, it sounds like very, I mean, the word that comes up for me is like, it doesn’t sound like it feels safe.

[00:12:10] Sara: Yeah, it doesn’t feel emotionally safe, and I think the glory of being a therapist is that I can have and share vulnerability with people on one and share that intimacy, and if there’s a misstep, part of my job is dealing with the repair of a rupture. Like there’s all this opportunity to make right, and I love that kind of connection with people. And this is an important product to us.

[00:12:43] Like all of the ideas we’ve come up with we’re like, oh, these are really strong ideas But it does take away that intimacy of the relationship and turns it into that much more of a business transaction.

[00:12:57] Linzy: Yes, it’s no longer an individual, relational experience that you’re having with a specific person who you can, like, adjust, and read and slow down or speed up, match their language, match their humor. 

[00:13:12] Can’t do any of those things when you’re writing something down on a piece of paper.

[00:13:15] In those one-on-one conversations, to go back to the word that you used earlier, there’s a lot more control,

[00:13:22] Sara: Yes, and the ability to tweak the message. If I say something too broad and the person says, I don’t understand. Can you explain that differently? I have that opportunity. So that is very in-the-moment stuff. And I hadn’t ever thought about it as controlling, but it is, it’s very, I can be very controlling of my message.

[00:13:45] Linzy: Yeah, and I mean, I think control, you know, gets a bad rap. Control, another thing would be managed, attuned, you know, like, there’s a lot of skills. Attuned there’s the nice version.

[00:13:57] There’s a lot of skills that go into being able to meet that person where they’re at. But it is this one-on-one exchange that’s happening.

[00:14:06] Right? And as you’re moving into this space of having you, I mean, you’ve already moved into this space by having the planner, the two planners, and all the things that are baked in, you don’t get to see how folks are reacting or receiving or understanding or not understanding.

[00:14:21] Sara: That’s true. And we did receive some feedback from people who had questions or felt like, Oh, this is never going to work. And we realized like, Oh, we need to be clear to parents that they’re going to have to be involved in this with a middle or high schooler. There were some tweaks we did have to do.

[00:14:37] Linzy: And so after I processed it, I was able to take it as information and then be able to respond to it. But I practically had to go for a run to deal with my anxiety about someone saying they didn’t like our planner. Yeah. Because what does that mean if someone doesn’t like your planner? What is the anxiety about?

[00:14:55] Sara: nobody’s going to like it. That one person is the predictor of everybody else. I’ve been doing this job for 20 years and I don’t know what I’m doing anymore. 

[00:15:06] Linzy: Because of that one person.

[00:15:08] Sara: The one person took away my whole career.

[00:15:10] Linzy: Yes, of course, and that is what happened, right? Your career ended after that.

[00:15:14] Sara: Right, I was completely invalidated and I was all done.

[00:15:19] Linzy: All your clients quit. Nobody talks to you anymore.

[00:15:21] Sara: That’s it.

[00:15:22] Linzy: But yeah, this is, the scary part, right? Of exposure is like, there are going to be folks who don’t connect and don’t get it. Some folks are not going to be your target audience, who like dip in and check out your product and are like, no, that’s not what I need.

[00:15:36] Right. And so I’m curious, like, if that’s part of the game and it is, I’m gonna tell you it’s, I know.

[00:15:43] Sara: That just makes me wanna shrink.

[00:15:46] Linzy: Okay. Why?

[00:15:48] Sara: I just had a little bit of a revelation on why that makes me shrink. And the revelation was, you know, but this is a product that we’re putting out there. This isn’t me.

[00:16:01] There’s no reason I have to… I don’t have to invalidate myself. I don’t, and I’m getting caught up in this emotional thought around it, and the reality is this is going to have life cycles, too, just like a therapeutic relationship would, where there’s that introduction, and there’s that initial buy-in or initial resistance.

[00:16:24] Then there’s taking in a little bit of education and maybe really reflecting on you know, why is it that I want, you know, this Emotions Journal or the ADHD planners that we’re asking people to, to be vulnerable to for themselves. And I hadn’t thought about it in both those ways, both that it’s the product is not me and the other part of there are life cycles and relational pieces that still occur.

[00:16:56] And so that is an even a really good selling point.

[00:17:04] Linzy: Yeah, and tell me about that. How could that be a great selling point?

[00:17:08] Sara: You know, it’s as basic as saying we want a to-do list to be a living document, and then making it as big as, and so if you want to make changes, you have to be honest with yourself. And that’s part of what we do in this planner we ask people to reflect on what is your reason for wanting more organization in your life.

[00:17:29] Because the motivation has to come from the person, not from the product. We can give them tools, we can educate them, but we cannot give them the motivation. And so we ask people to do some really deep reflection on what kind of year they want to have. That’s sort of our tagline, is a different kind of year.

[00:17:48] If I’m looking at what my year could be versus just continuing on the way I have been, there are some deep truths in there for most people.

[00:17:56] Linzy: Sure, Yeah and I mean, something that I’m thinking about as you’re talking about the real work that’s involved for folks, right, of like really facing like, this is why I need to do this work. This is why it’s important on multiple levels. And then all the clinical expertise that you’re bringing to this conversation and the fact that you’re trying to bottle that up in a, in a product, which

[00:18:19] You need to make clear that the value is there. It makes me curious about how you augment this product to make it more of a maybe supportive experience for folks. 

[00:18:31] Sara: We have been playing with some background technology that when people in the adulting planner go on to use the QR codes for the individual skill-building pieces, there is the ability to comment and there is the ability, if we wanted to, to build a community. Another thing we’ve thought about doing for just people who learn a little differently is to put together videos for each of the skills.

[00:18:56] You know, two-minute videos, and that that honestly would, would be a really good one for the academic part of the planner as well. So it’s something we know we want to build out for the adults, but probably is a good idea for the younger ones.

[00:19:10] Linzy: Because I’m thinking here about the psychoeducation involved in this product. And as you mentioned, the parents need to also understand, their role, right? And what they’re trying to help their child, the skills they’re trying to help their child develop. And so yeah, like I’m… To me, that seems like a very rich area for you to start to dig into.

[00:19:29] And you mentioned like two-minute videos. I was thinking the same thing, like videos, podcast recordings, like how do you bring more of yourself?

[00:19:36] Sara: Yeah, and be present.

[00:19:36] Linzy: And by yourself, I mean your skills. I don’t mean Sara, like the vulnerable, you know, like, this is who I am, love me or reject me and my life is over, right?

[00:19:44] Like not those parts of us, but that clinical, expertise, that professional part. How do you maybe infuse even more of that into your buyer’s experience, of the planner?

[00:19:54] Sara: We’ve even talked about doing like webinars and having, you know, a launch day that we would say to people, we’re going to set up our planner today. Come join us for an accountability hour of setting up a planner for the year. 

[00:20:07] Linzy: Yeah, which your audience needs. Right? Like that’s, that’s a very valuable gift. 

[00:20:15] Sara: Plus it’s body doubling and accountability.

[00:20:16] Linzy: I was going to say it’s body doubling like it’s all you know, yeah. Like if I think of so many folks in my life who have ADHD like they know what they need to do, but it’s very hard to make themselves do it by themselves right, so it’s like, that’s, that is a beautiful addition, you don’t get that with a typical planner.

[00:20:30] To have the opportunity to have, the container to set it up, right, and the co-regulation to set it up.

[00:20:39] Sara: Ooh, that’s a, I like that selling point. That feels good and feels less about, am I good enough.

[00:20:47] Linzy: Yes, because, you know, the other thing that you mentioned is that it feels like a baby, Right? It’s not a baby.

[00:20:57] Linzy: It is an expression of some ideas that could also be expressed in many different ways, right? But it sounds like you’re hitting on an iteration that you feel really good about.

[00:21:07] But I do wonder about how you create a narrative around this business or the relationship to it that allows you to be resilient, right? And like take some risks with it and try things and, and fail and make mistakes and not have it be about you or not have it be about, you know, the most vulnerable form of life, which is a baby.

[00:21:27] Sara: Little extreme. I’m, I’m hearing it. When I first started a private practice, it was part-time and I remember being just very afraid to launch it. I had just actually had my child and was also learning how to run half marathons, and I was launching this, and I worked full time. And I remember saying out loud to a lot of people, Oh, this is my fall season of fear.

[00:21:52] I’m doing all these things and I’m very afraid of it. I’m doing it anyway.

[00:21:57] A business would fluctuate or we move to a different part of town I realized, Oh, I couldn’t make it to that office. I would like to close down that office. And then I would do it somewhere else, just part-time.

[00:22:11] And my husband asked me one time if I was upset about closing it down after, I think, the first one, I said, Oh, that’s just 1. 0. And now I would tell you I’m on like 4 or 5.0 because now I do it full time and I am, you know, half of our income for our household and that feels amazing. And so I wonder if I need to be thinking about these books.

[00:22:36] as 1.0, 2.0 and knowing that the business itself, the core part of it is always going to be me and my business partner and that we’ve got a really strong relationship and a really strong concept of how to keep our priorities in line, because we’ve always, in the last year and a half of working on this, we have been very clear and supportive of one another when parenting or life gets in the way to say that’s the goal is not to stress about this.

[00:23:12] The goal is to live life and also do this thing at the pace that works for us. We want there to be a flow. And maybe that’s part of what I’m emotionally reacting to is like, what if it interrupts the flow?

[00:23:27] It’s nice right now in life to be able to say when people are like, well, what’s going on with you?

[00:23:32] I’m like, not much. It’s great. That’s like success to me to not have a whole lot of drama happening.

[00:23:39] Linzy: For sure. And that is a season that you’re in, it’s a chapter that you’re in, maybe it’s the rest of time you’ll want it that way. Or maybe at a certain point, you will look for more challenges, right? And this is what I also think about as we’re talking about these different versions, you know like you’re at version 5.

[00:23:55] 0 of your practice and we were even chatting a little bit off-camera before about some changes you want to make, which would maybe make it your practice 6. 0 version, right? And so if we think about this business the same way, you know, something to consider as you’re thinking about what you want and investors and having it manufactured elsewhere, regional reach, statewide reach, all this stuff is what do you want in this season?

[00:24:16] Sara: I want to set this up so it’s sustainable. I don’t know if this is the year if this is when we can achieve that, and I want to be able to hand off pieces of that elsewhere like the marketing of it to bring it to that sort of level. I don’t want to do that.

[00:24:37] Linzy: Yes, So there’s going to be a certain amount of growth that you need just so you can start to delegate some of these pieces that you don’t want to be running anymore.

[00:24:49] Sara: I like learning about pitch decks and business plans. It’s interesting to learn that I’m good with the small-time parts of that. I would like to let a marketer be a marketer and let them take care of 

[00:25:03] Linzy: Highly recommend. Marketers love marketing. It’s very confusing to me, but they do. We are very grateful for them. Yeah. Okay. So bringing, it sounds like there’s room on your team for another team member. There’s a gap there to fill…

[00:25:17] Sara: I hadn’t thought about it like that.

[00:25:18] Linzy: With someone who loves marketing. And that doesn’t mean they’re a partner to be clear, there are all these tasks, these marketing tasks that like, you’re happy to dabble in, but this is not your happy place.

[00:25:29] Sara: Right. It’s not. And I find myself thinking about it in very distracted ways. Like I just avoid, like I’m resistant and I’m a little bit avoidant of it and then I try and buckle down and it’s like, I’m going to do this thing, and that doesn’t feel fantastic.

[00:25:44] Linzy: That’s how I feel every time I try to make an Instagram Reel. Which is why I pay people to make me do it. So as we’re thinking about this then, you know, and these, kind of your next steps, the next version of this, you know, what I would encourage you to think about is maybe what is that next sustainable point for this business where there would be enough.

[00:26:06] revenue generated that, you know, you and your business partner are getting paid what you want to get paid. There’s room to also pay a marketer to be planting these seeds for you, setting some strategy. You can think about what that position needs to look like. Is that like a project? Is it just they’re helping you launch?

[00:26:21] Is it somebody who’s around five hours a week? You know, like what does that look like? And also what level of skill are you looking for? Could that be an administrator who, you know, is implementing your ideas, or is that somebody who’s coming in with their strategic expertise, right? There is going to be an equation here, surprise, surprise, for what this next sustainable step looks like.

[00:26:41] But what I’m not hearing from you at this moment is that like, I’m not hearing explosive growth is your goal.

[00:26:48] Sara: I’d be open to it, but then, the imaginary leap that would take, you know, the investment in money would be pretty spectacular

[00:26:57] Linzy: Yes.

[00:26:57] Sara: Because it would, it would effectively mean me cutting my client load in half, and so the investment would have to come from outside.

[00:27:09] Linzy: Yes. Yeah. You would

[00:27:11] Sara: I’d be open to it.

[00:27:12] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A loan or an investor like a silent business partner or a grant. You know, there are lots of funding opportunities there. And that is a door that will continue to be open to you. Right? In the future. That doesn’t have to be a decision that you make this year or next year.

[00:27:30] Sara: But what I’m hearing from you is like, right now you’re enjoying this season of your life where there’s not a lot going on. There’s no urge to change that. You’re not bored. You don’t feel like you’re like, We’re humming along. We’ve got the flow.

[00:27:43] Linzy: You’ve got the flow. The flow is nice. Right? And right now it doesn’t sound like there’s a feeling of flow of wanting to go huge, but there is, there is some flow towards the next level. It’d be nice to get some of these things off your chest.

[00:27:53] Sara: I feel a sense of calm at the concept of, oh, there’s room on the team for a team member. That doesn’t mean a partner. Is there’s sort of a next step that that would be important to take

[00:28:09] Linzy: Yes, yes. And coming back to that, that word that we talked about at the beginning, scalable,

[00:28:15] Sara: Yes

[00:28:16] Linzy: This is a version of scale. Scale gets to be whatever size you want.

[00:28:21] Sara: Yeah. It can be 20%.

[00:28:23] Linzy: It can be 20%. So when you think about that, this is scaling, right? But it’s scaling at a pace that lands you where you want to be. How does that sit with you?

[00:28:33] Sara: Oh, that feels lovely. And it feels, you know, like just I’m going on a cruise. It’s okay. We’re just taking the next wave as it comes.

[00:28:42] I don’t have to think about the ocean voyage. We’re just taking the next wave as it comes.

[00:28:47] Linzy: Yeah, and one day you might decide you want to take the ocean voyage and like get this into national bookstores and, and you might not, right? And you get to choose that.

[00:28:57] Sara: Oh, that feels good. I’m holding onto this idea of like, oh, I want it to be a cruise.

[00:29:03] Linzy: Nice. Okay. So coming towards the end of our conversation then, Sara, what are you taking away?

[00:29:10] Sara: Well, that’s my own. Stepping back and becoming a bit more objective about what it truly is versus over-identifying, with it, is a really important concept, I think, for my brain to wrap around and one that I’m going to need to remind myself about. I also think it’s really helpful for me to think about steps as opposed to I know what the big version of this is.

[00:29:40] I just didn’t know what the scalable steps were. Each little individual step. I know Mount Everest, but I just didn’t know the base camp kind of thing.

[00:29:47] Linzy: Yes, and I am a firm believer that we can find sustainable points where we want to find them, right? By like, looking at the numbers, you know, looking at the balance of how much energy we have, what we want this to look like in our life, doing the math. And putting in the effort to get you the numbers you need to make it work. It’s not like the smallest version of the product works and the biggest version works.

[00:30:10] All these points in the middle can also work. We just need to be thoughtful about what those points look like.

[00:30:16] Sara: We have the opportunity to present, a pitch deck, but we literally have no written out business plan, but we actually could just do the pitch deck in 10 days.

[00:30:31] Almost feel like I want to do it just for the experience. Just to see what it’s like and just to see, that one of them is that you do an elevator pitch.

[00:30:41] Sara: Established business, which probably wouldn’t be us since we don’t have a business plan. And then one is for a new business. And I feel positive about just trying it without expectation. And before I was thinking I don’t even want to register for this thing because then it’ll be putting myself out there.

[00:31:01] And now I feel much more like, oh, maybe we should just try this. I’ve got the day. I can go do it.

[00:31:07] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like something you can now just be curious about. Try it out. See what happens.

[00:31:13] Sara: Yeah. And I don’t think you’d get any better at it unless you try it at some point in time. You’ve got to be an amateur. 

[00:31:20] Yes, you do. Yeah, like all of these skills we build through actually doing, right? And there’s, there’s this phrase that I heard recently that I like, which is like, a ship in motion can adjust course, right? But a ship that’s still can’t. Right? It’s like when we’re in motion, we can shift this way, we can shift that way, right?

[00:31:39] Like you have the opportunity to explore and tweak and feel into something and be like, ah, it doesn’t feel right. I’m going to go a different way. Right? But when we’re frozen trying to make the perfect decision, we’re not moving at all. We’re not experiencing anything.

[00:31:50] Sara: Yeah, I can feel like I’ve shifted forward in very positive ways today.

[00:31:56] Linzy: Beautiful. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Sara, for coming on the podcast today.

[00:32:00] Sara: Thank you. I feel great about this. 

[00:32:18] Linzy: In my conversation with Sara, I noticed how once she started to shift the narrative around exposure and what that means, right? And we, we kind of had that joking exchange about like, you know, somebody didn’t like her planner, and then obviously her whole career ended, which it didn’t, right?

[00:32:37] But once we start to make friends with that exposure and find ways to tolerate it and shift our narratives around what it means if somebody doesn’t like or get what we do… As we chatted about removing this language around something being your baby or being you, that you’re putting yourself out there and more it’s you’re putting product out there, you’re putting an approach, you’re putting something out there that could also have many, many versions and iterations.

[00:33:02] Once we move into that more distanced, curious, strategic relationship with our business and what we do, so much more becomes possible, right? We shouldn’t have the most vulnerable parts of us out there leading our business. We need to take care of those vulnerabilities.

[00:33:18] It’s the parts of us that can be resilient and creative and curious and see failure and trying things as the way to move forward and to grow and to learn. Those are the parts and aspects of us that can help us in our business and build a business that works for us, and a business that we want.

[00:33:38] And those parts of us that feel more scared or exposed, you know, we can take care of those and hold them back. They don’t need to be running the show, right? They shouldn’t be the parts that we’re putting out there to everybody. Because the reality is not everybody is going to like or get what we’re going to do.

[00:33:51] So I’m excited for Sara, moving into doing this pitch that she’s now decided she’s going to do. I’m excited to hear how that goes for her because moving forward is how we figure out where we want to go. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. I mentioned at the beginning, that all of our new podcast episodes are also on YouTube.

[00:34:11] So you’re also welcome to subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you can watch the videos, get that whole other visual aspect of the podcast experience, and see me, see our guests, our facial expressions, our backgrounds, all of that good stuff. And if you’re enjoying the podcast,

[00:34:27] It’s super helpful for me if you tell your friends and colleagues about it, tell them about an episode that was specifically impactful to them. If you’re listening to an episode and it makes you think about one of your colleagues, just send it along to them. That is a helpful way for the right folks to find this podcast and get value from it.

[00:34:45] Thank you so much for listening today.

[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to another Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapist Podcast. These are our short and sweet friday episodes Where I answer questions from you the listeners of the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast, the wonderful therapists, and coaches, and health practitioners that make up our community today.

[00:00:18] We have a question from a returning guest, so to speak, on the podcast, Dr. Charissa Pizzaro. Charissa, we had a coaching episode. And since that coaching episode, she’s also been taking the Money Skills for Therapists course. And here is her question today for our Feelings and Finances episode.

[00:00:35] Charissa: Hi Linzy, my name is Charissa Pizarro. I am submitting a question because I am struggling with my scarcity mindset. I’ve been actually taking your course and discovered a lot of insights, and one of them is that during stressful times I tend to go to that scarcity mindset. So I wanted to know if you have any feedback on how I can work on that.

[00:01:01] Thank you.

[00:01:02] Linzy: Okay, this is a great question, Charissa, and I think in your question itself, there is such a helpful insight that you have developed, you know, through doing your work on your money stories in Money Skills for Therapists, which is that when you are stressed, that trigger brings up scarcity for you, right?

[00:01:20] So that’s the first thing to notice that there’s two different things happening here, right? There’s stress in your life, and then you move into a scarcity mindset. From what I’m understanding from your question, it’s almost like the scarcity mindset is a response to the stress, right? And so the first thing that I would encourage you to explore is, is the stress that you’re experiencing.

[00:01:42] actually indicating that there will be some sort of scarcity, right? So for instance, when we have stress around job insecurity or instability, right? When you’re in an organization that’s being downsized, or maybe your private practice is going through an extremely quiet time and that’s the stressor, then there is actually a potential financial implication from that.

[00:02:00] It does mean that there could be less money if you’re laid off for, you know, some time until you, you get a new job or you grow your private practice more. Having less clients, if that’s a stress, then there is less money coming into the practice, which means there is less money to manage. So there is actually less.

[00:02:14] That doesn’t mean that scarcity needs to be our response, but it does certainly mean that, this is actually a financial stressor, right? But what I’m taking from your question is that it’s not necessarily just financial stressors that are putting you into scarcity. It’s when you are stressed, you move into scarcity.

[00:02:28] And that gives us so much space to be curious about what is that response about, right? Going into kind of the trauma therapist parts work part of my brain, my question would be, What is that scarcity part of you trying to accomplish when you are under stress, right? Is there an attempt there to gain control over an area that you feel like you can control?

[00:02:52] Because money is an area of our life where we make decisions every single day, right? We have a lot of opportunity to exert control over money just like we do over food, right? When folks are under stress, this is where, you know, disordered eating can be kicked up more, because we have a space where we are constantly making decisions and where we can exert control, sometimes control that is harmful to us, but we see ourself doing something, right?

[00:03:18] So is there some sort of mission like that, that this scarcity part has for you? Is this an attempt to control something? Is the tightness of scarcity, is the fear of not enough, and maybe the lack of spending that comes with that, is it an attempt at control? That would be a curiosity that I have. And if it’s not an attempt at control to offset the stress, what is that scarcity part of you trying to accomplish?

[00:03:42] Right? What is the goal of that part of you? So that’s the first thing that I would be curious about is: what is the function? Why is it helpful for your system that when you are stressed to put you into a scarcity space around money specifically, right? So bringing that curiosity to this circuit, you know, that’s running inside of your body. The next piece that I would encourage you to take some time with is, is there a specific trigger that’s being activated? You know, I know from our conversation in our previous podcast episode that there is a very real history in your family of scarcity and what that scarcity is about. I’m sure you’ve, you’ve explored and done more

[00:04:21] work on that since our conversation. Is there a specific trigger there that’s coming up that, you know, the scarcity is trying to keep you safe, that there’s confusion for that part about where you are in time and space, right? Is stress in general bringing you back to, you know, those certain family histories of needing to have control around money to be safe?

[00:04:40] Is that part of what’s being triggered? And if that is the case, or even regardless of what the actual trigger is, noticing that you are triggered. Right? When you are stressed, there’s a trigger there. There’s an intensity there that’s putting your system into probably a series of responses. And one of those responses is scarcity around money.

[00:05:01] When we can separate that, then it becomes more clear that it’s not about the money, The response is focusing in on the money. And I see this in my own life sometimes, Theresa. This is something that I’ve worked on over the last few years, is noticing, Hey, when I’m stressed in general, suddenly I’m checking my budget a whole bunch more.

[00:05:17] That’s weird. What is that about? And it’s like, well, this is an area of my life where I can try to exert control, right? When maybe I don’t have control over how wellmy sales launch is going to do for, you know, this round of the course, or there’s other things that are outside of my control. But you know, keeping my money organized and counting my pennies is something that I do feel like I can control.

[00:05:36] And when I can notice, oh, I’m stressed about this bigger thing that’s out of my control, so I’m trying to exert control over this smaller thing, then I can separate those and just focus on. the original stressor, right? What does my system need? So when you’re stressed, if you can even separate out the scarcity and almost let that just be a symptom of the stress, how do you actually take care of your stress?

[00:05:59] What can you do that might have nothing to do with money to take care of yourself? Is it that you take yourself to therapy, to work on the triggers that are coming up? Do you start going to yoga classes more often? Do you meditate? Do you schedule more time to go for walks with friends and just talk about what’s happening?

[00:06:16] How do you take care of your stress in a global way that’s about your well being as a person? Right? Because I think, from what I’m gathering from your question, is it’s not actually about the money. Right. It’s about the stress and it’s a system response that makes the stress about money by putting into a scarcity, but you’re just talking about stress, right?

[00:06:35] So how do you actually take care of your stress in a global way? If we didn’t buy into the story that there is actually a financial problem here that needs to be solved and managed… If this is actually about you being under emotional stress, your nervous system being in hyper arousal, how do you take care of your nervous system?

[00:06:51] How do you take care of yourself? And then once you have done that self care, once you have given yourself the space to ground and done a really good yoga class or gotten together with some old friends and had some good laughs, or, you know, taken a long bath and listened to music and let yourself be really, really quiet for a while, whatever it is for you…

[00:07:12] once you’ve actually done things to downcycle your nervous system, then how true does that scarcity feel, right? Let yourself be curious and notice: do I still feel like there isn’t enough when my stress has subsided, or is that just a secondary response to the stress? Right? So going to the actual root of the problem, whether that is a trigger that you identify or whether it’s just taking care of your body and your nervous system and your need for connection and care, as we all do as people.

[00:07:42] You know, I’m basically suggesting that be curious about the other ways to take care of this with the idea that this might not actually be about money at all. Right? I think the money, it sounds like, is a secondary effect. It’s a response, to the original stressor and stopping to take care of yourself as a whole person and dealing with that stress and not buying into the story that there’s actually less money because you’re stressed lets you take care of yourself without kind of making a new problem that might not actually be a problem.

[00:08:11] I think the real problem is that there’s a stressor that needs to be attended to, and the story that comes out of that is that there isn’t enough money, but the story is just a story. Right? So that would be my offering is to really let those two things be separate, really attend to the stress, and then see what’s left of the scarcity stories and the scarcity mindset after you let yourself truly attend to the stress.

[00:08:34] And there’s a part of me that has some grief that you’ve just finished up Money Skills for Therapists, so I’m not going to get to hear how this question lands and what happens when you explore this. But I’m excited for you to keep exploring this, Charissa, and holding it out at arm’s length and turning it over and being curious about it, and seeing how it can start to unravel and loosen as you give yourself more and more space for it.

[00:08:56] Thank you so much, Charissa, for sharing your question today. If you have your own question for me for a Feelings and Finances episode, we have only a couple spots left this season to answer your questions. So head over to the podcast page now. Just scroll down just a little.

[00:09:12] You’ll see a link that says, do you have a question for LInzy? We’ll also put a direct link to that, in the show notes. All you need to do, like Charissa, is press record, introduce yourself, introduce your question, and I will answer it on an upcoming Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast.

[00:09:26] Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Chioma: Start talking about it. There are a lot of us not talking about money or not feeling comfortable enough to talk about money because of, again, a lot of shame and stigma. So having that normalization of the conversation around money is going to be helpful.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Today’s guest is Chioma Janelle Efejedia. Chioma is a therapist who works with folks in tech, people of color, and tech. She is local to me. She’s in Kitchener, Ontario. I’m in Guelph, Ontario, so just down the road. And I had the pleasure of meeting her in person at an event recently.

[00:01:11] And we got talking about the idea for this episode today. Today, Chioma and I talk about racialized folks and money. We talk about culture and ethnicity and its impact on people’s money stories. We jam a little bit and brainstorm a little bit about systemic oppression, and just being in a white, Eurocentric culture, more individualistic, that impact of that

[00:01:33] on racialized people and their relationship with money. She talks about susu or partner, which is a collectivist model of finance. Lots of rich pieces here today. Here’s my conversation with Chioma Janelle Efejedia. 

[00:02:02] Linzy: So Chioma, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:04] Chioma: Thank you for having me here.

[00:02:06] Linzy: I’m excited to have you here. I think you might be the first person that I’ve had on the podcast because we met in person and you were like, I want to be on your podcast and talk about this thing. I was like, yes. So it’s exciting to be having this conversation with you. Cause I don’t get to meet a lot of people in person, working in the online space.

[00:02:24] But we’re both in the Guelph, Kitchener, Waterloo area in Ontario.

[00:02:29] Chioma: Yeah, we are and I think that’s so cool to have proximity to say, hey, you’re on the online space, we can connect in person, and we can also be virtual. 

[00:02:37] Linzy: It’s cool because I spoke at a local event for our OASW, Ontario Association of Social Workers. And then I remember you came up after and you were like, you are all over my Instagram, which is like always weird for me but that’s how Facebook advertising works. And you pitched this conversation today, which I’m excited to have.

[00:02:52] So can you tell folks a little bit about yourself before we dig into it?

[00:02:56] Chioma: My name is Chioma Janelle Effigenia. I am the founder of Intercompass Wellbeing, and I work a lot with diversity.

[00:03:02] I work from a culturally relatable, lens and responsive lens to make sure that the needs of racialized individuals are being met.

[00:03:09] Linzy: Great!And the topic that you suggested for today that I’m excited to start to dig into is racialization and money. Let’s start with kind of the bigger zoom-out, like how culture ethnicity, and race impact people’s money stories.?

[00:03:27] Chioma: That’s a great question. When it comes to our money stories from our family of origin, we all pick up and we all have a relationship of how we’ve seen our parents, our grandparents, and our culture deal with money. And the status that we’ve put on money or the status that money plays in our lives, right?

[00:03:48] We all know that money can be a tool and a resource, but based on where our cultural backgrounds are, based on what the norms are around money and how we are using money, there’s a story there. And when I work with Everest people, when I work with Black people, when I work with South Asian communities, they all have their money story.

[00:04:06] And I realized from the onset, even within my own experience, it’s different. It’s different from what a Eurocentric money story might be. It’s different from what the capitalistic ideology of money would look like. Not to say that influence doesn’t play a role. It does, but that relationship changes based on what part of the continent or what part of the world you’re in.

[00:04:32] Linzy: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there is this, it’s getting me thinking also about, about history and place and time, where you’re from, where your ancestors are from, like there’s very specific, there’s culture, but there’s also historical events that happen that are going to impact generations to come.

[00:04:47] Chioma: Absolutely

[00:04:49] Linzy: Yeah, and what are some specific examples of the kind of ethnicity, and culture showing up in folks’ money?

[00:04:56] Chioma: So, one of the ways that shows up is how people save money so for the black community, Jamaicans, Africans, they have this thing called partner susu. And, what it is, it’s a community way of saving. So, Western society, it’s big on credit. It’s big on debt and I like leveraging that to, be successful.

[00:05:15] Especially as business owners, we might take out a loan to start our business. But in a lot of other parts of the world, again, Jamaica, Nigeria, parts of Africa, they might say, okay, let’s communal save, right? So you have a monthly contribution of like, maybe it’s a hundred dollars equivalent to like a hundred dollars a month.

[00:05:33] So you have X amount and then that’s your seed, money to get your thing going. Right? And I think that communal lens of how we’re saving and how we’re using money is really important, but then. Also, when you bring it into the Canadian context it becomes credit. A lot of people don’t trust credit or a lot of racialized people are like, I don’t want to get into debt because that’s not a part of their cultural story.

[00:05:55] That’s not a part of the norm. So being able to take on credit debt or loans. Especially as business owners, becomes scary, right? It becomes something that it’s like, I wasn’t taught to do that. Even talking from my own experience, I wasn’t taught to do that. I was looked at like, you need to make sure your debt is as clean as possible.

[00:06:14] Like don’t get as much credit. Right. And I think that’s important, but also realizing that sometimes when you’re in Canada, you don’t have that ability to have that communal sharing of money. Right. So that’s how it can look different.

[00:06:30] Linzy: Yeah, and that like partner or susu, like the brain of my system, is so curious now… Tell me more about what that model looks like, like folks put in a hundred bucks a month, like say that’s your contribution. And then how does the community determine who takes out money? How much money do you take out?

[00:06:46] Chioma: So, I do Susu all the time. I do it here, too, so the way how it looks is what you put in is what you get out, right? So it’s usually a duration, so maybe 10 people get together, and they’re each putting 100, so you’ll have a list of when is your time, so maybe someone’s like, I need this money right now, so then they’ll get over, if it’s over 10 weeks, 100 times 10, They’ll get that amount and then it will kind of just filter. 

[00:07:11] So whoever’s the last person might get the bulk amount, right? So it just requires everybody to contribute and work together. And it is based on an honor system, right? Because you do have to have that level of communal trust. So that’s the logistics of how, like, Susu, or partner, would work.

[00:07:29] Linzy: Right, so folks can get out what they put in. So tell me then, this is my super individualistic brain that’s like, huh, I don’t get it. So tell me then the benefit of having everybody’s money together. If folks are entitled to their own, like, what is the real benefit, of folks pooling their money together then?

[00:07:46] Chioma: When you say faster if you have an expense coming up quicker. So, for example, maybe in a month or like in four weeks, you’re going to need bulk money and you’re not going to have that for, let’s say, the next, it’s going to take you longer to do it individually. You know that you can have this bulk money.

[00:08:05] Whatever that dollar, like, if that dollar amount is like 5, 000. I’m doing bad math right now. So, like, it doesn’t equate. You can have it sooner. And if you’re like, okay, I need to save for, like, a bigger expense, it’s, it’s a way to just help you save and have that accountability.

[00:08:20] Linzy: Yes, so folks can get basically like in advance is what you’re saying? Like you can get $5,000 sooner, but you’re committed to continue to put money in so the money, will replenish and be there when somebody else needs money.

[00:08:33] Chioma: Exactly.

[00:08:35] Linzy: Yeah, I am hearing there is a lot, of trust that would be between a group of people, because something that I think about even with, more individualistic Western Eurocentric society is sometimes even couples don’t share money, because there’s this fear that the other person could, like, spend all the money, right, and, like, take it away from you.

[00:08:56] And so that is a much more trusting way to be benefiting together. But yeah, there’s a real community aspect there that sounds like it would be central to making that work.

[00:09:08] Chioma: And absolutely. And that’s the part where, when you look at the culture and the ethnic differences, it’s based on the communal way of how money is used and shared versus the individualistic way, right? You hear the stats when it comes to, how, like, the dollar circulates in different communities, so, like, in terms of the Black community, it might circle, like, once or twice.

[00:09:29] If you look at the South Asian community, I think it’s a little bit more. I don’t have the numbers for that. When you look at, like, the white community, it’s, like, 20, it circles 20 times before it leaves that community. So, there’s that shift. There’s that shift when you look at what that communal sense is and how we’ve historically dealt with money and spending versus now you’re in a Western world, and it’s individualistic, and it’s breaking away from some of those cultural norms that were beneficial, still are beneficial.

[00:09:58] Linzy: Yeah, for sure. Because when you’re not doing that, I think we have to put our trust instead in systems, right? Like we put our trust in insurance, which, you know, for the Americans listening, who have to use insurance a lot, like sometimes insurance is on your side, and they do what they say what they’re going to do, but sometimes they fight you to do the thing that they promised they were going to do.

[00:10:17] Because it’s not people who care about you, right? It’s, it’s a system that’s based on profits, right? And I think the same about loans and banks we end up instead having to trust these large systems, but they are for-profit systems. They are there to make money. And they don’t care about the impact on you if you get in over your head or, yeah, they will even sell you things that maybe you can’t afford because they know they’re going to make more money off of you.

[00:10:43] So there’s a lot less of that, like care and community in the individualistic model.

[00:10:48] Chioma: Absolutely. And even just when you think about bank loans or you think about redlining and historically how Black communities have been marginalized from even having access to funding and access opportunities. So, shifting from that individual lens for racialized individuals, for Black individuals like me, gives me a better opportunity to say, okay, now I have the money or I can have the resource to be able to get what I need to get done.

[00:11:17] Because it is harder, it would be harder for me as a Black woman to get a loan versus yourself. Right. And that difference in terms of what it creates, and the economic movement that it comes from. So, shifting to like the system level of how money is, you know, racism and culture has such a huge impact.

[00:11:38] And when we’re able to tap into like, how do we use communal ways, of saving? How do we use, structure to make sure that we’re able to build capital? There’s a platform, called Wevo, now that kind of has that partner, Susu model of communal sharing. So, people are starting to say, okay, how do we go back to some of that narrative of communal sharing?

[00:12:03] Linzy: The phrase that comes to mind for me, which might be a newer phrase or more of like, kind of like a lefty activist phrase is like mutual aid, right? Of like communities supporting themselves. Are you familiar with the concept of mutual aid? Is that on your radar?

[00:12:18] Chioma: No, it’s not.

[00:12:20] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. I’m not sure exactly of similarities or differences, but, that mutual aid piece of, you know, there is that sense of, this is like our community like we care about each other, we trust each other, so we’re going to pool money together so that folks can access money in this more collectivist community-oriented way, and now, now I’m gonna have to like to go out of here and do a bunch of research on the these similarities or differences, between those systems, but yeah, what I’m hearing is it’s like you, historically and presently, can’t trust these, these larger systems to take care of you, which, on one hand, as for-profit systems,

[00:12:57] I think all of us can be screwed over by these large systems because they don’t care about anybody. But they don’t care about marginalized folks. And there’s all this systemic oppression baked into those systems, as you said, of like who can get a loan easily. Right? And whose loan might be recalled faster than somebody else’s.

[00:13:12] Like there’s so much history there, which also makes me think about systemic oppression, right? Cause we’re talking… The susu and partner is this cultural system, right? That exists in many places in the world. But I’m also thinking about when you come to a white supremacist culture, right? Like when you’re in a context where it is this Eurocentric white normative space, just to jam on this a little bit, how do you think that impacts folks’ money stories, right?

[00:13:42] Or yeah, how does that impact people, coming into a white supremacist culture when it comes to money?

[00:13:49] Chioma: I think it creates a lot of stigma, right? It creates a lot of stigma around money. It creates a lot of scarcity around money. It creates a disconnect between money as a resource and money as something that I need to hold tight on. Like I, you don’t know how to work it as well. So that, that usually is the, I want to say the trauma impact when it comes to

[00:14:11] Like the systematic racism that you see within institutions when it comes to money is when you have lack of, it creates this story of scarcity or this, this holding on to say my grandma used to say, you got to make every penny count. Right? And it was like saying you’re holding on to it tight, though, right?

[00:14:31] So it was can you do without or is this something that, you need right now? So it was more of a let’s fund our needs and if there is extra for our wants then cool. I can get that, but rarely. It’s not because access to those resources is harder, even when it comes to employment opportunities you find that marginalized individuals are usually underemployed, right?

[00:14:57] They might have the education, they might have the background, and they’re not. So then that money is tighter, right? And then you’re not able to access it the same way. Canada, North America. It’s expensive. Like it is expensive in this day and age. It’s expensive to live in. 

[00:15:11] So if you have an unexpected bill that comes up, it’s not like you can turn to the bank.

[00:15:16] I was talking to an adjudicator, yesterday. And, she was like, the bank has so many rules in terms of people getting access to support, and the rules get harder based on who you are, right? You would think that it’s all fair, but it’s not. And when it comes to that money story, those internalized systems that say we’re not connected to you as a human being or recognizing what your need is for right now, but we’re going to save. Sorry, you don’t have access to this, or you’re taking out payday loans, which have higher interest rates, right? It builds a sense of mistrust. It builds this thing of, Oh, I’m getting screwed over by the system again, because the alternatives are not that great. But then when you go to that communal sense, you’re like, Oh, okay, this, is more supportive.

[00:16:06] Granted as you were talking about the mutual aid, I think the difference between it is, that Susu or Partner is a group of people collecting, right? So nobody outside of that group is going to get that money. I think mutual aid is, almost like a bucket. So like, even if you were not a part of it, you can still access it.

[00:16:23] That’s, that’s kind of what it sounded like.

[00:16:26] Linzy: Now I don’t know. Somebody is listening right now who’s like, Ah, that’s not what mutual aid is! Yeah, now I’m not sure. I sense that it is within a community that folks would access and then they would be contributing back later. But yeah, I’ll have to take a look and learn more about that.

[00:16:40] That model. But yeah, like I’m hearing a couple of things. A couple of things are coming to mind as you’re talking. Like, first of all, what you’re saying with your grandmother of like you got to hold onto the pennies and I see this a lot with therapists, too, just with the type of people we are, there can be this like real like clutching and like, tightness, in us as humans for lots of different reasons.

[00:16:57] But as you say, it’s like, .. If you can’t easily access that resource. I always think about money. There are two levers, right? We can either spend less or make more. Now there are all sorts of complex pieces that go into that and some math and some strategy ultimately at the end of the day, those are the two options we have we either make more or spend less So if you can’t make more… If you don’t live in a society that values you and gives you an easy opportunity to get paid for your gifts, then what can you do?

[00:17:21] Like you can spend less, right? That’s where you have control, so of course you’re going to exert control where you have it, which makes so much sense. Something that I see in racialized folks in Money Skills for Therapists is also there can also be this sense of just low self-worth, right? Like … You haven’t seen yourself represented growing up like you didn’t grow up thinking that you could be the doctor or the president, and then you become this incredibly talented therapist and suddenly you have to face the reality that maybe you need to charge 150 or 200 an hour But you haven’t been told that you are a valuable, smart, wonderful person by the larger society your whole life.

[00:17:56] Hopefully, your parents and the folks who love you have been telling you that. But, you are in an impressive environment, which means that like, it’s a bigger step to get to that point of like, I am talented. I am giving worth. Like, I can charge this fee because I’m changing people’s lives.

[00:18:10] It’s, it’s a much bigger step, when you are racialized is what I have observed. Does that ring true to you or would you, yeah, trouble that

[00:18:17] Chioma: So true and I don’t think it’s just in like the world of therapists. I think it’s across the board. I have been in so many different rooms with business people, and entrepreneurs, who are Black where They’re more willing to give their time for free or for a discounted value versus saying, I am worth this amount and I’m going to charge accordingly, you know? And the price that we put on our service and our labor, again, from that system of you always have gotten less. Black bodies in essence have always been in this grind culture of, you need to produce, you need to keep going.

[00:18:53] And we’re not going to compensate you. So, there’s a level of this is just the norm. And breaking out of it to say you are worthy, like knowing that your labor, your gifts, and your talent are deserving to be compensated. So you’re breaking some of that scarcity mindset.

[00:19:11] The relationship with money that I like to call it because what it comes down to is how are you viewing that money, right? Like, are you viewing it as just something that you need to survive or as a tool to say, you know what, it’s going to give me the life that I need? It’s going to make my kids, and my generation happier, and more comfortable.

[00:19:32] And it is again, that complete shift, right? When I’ve seen it, when I’ve been working with racialized individuals, even for myself, it’s almost a 360 mindset shift, right? It’s breaking up from the previous narratives, the previous stories with money. It’s breaking up from what our parents might’ve seen as money as our grandparents might’ve seen the money as it is.

[00:19:55] Also going against a capitalist system, right? An oppressive system that has always at the crux of it, said, We don’t value your worth. You’re always going to be in a place where you’re underemployed. You’re not getting the resources that you need and say, nope, I’m going to change that.

[00:20:15] And honestly, being in a space when you’re changing and disturbing you when you’re a disruptor, that in itself is hard. Right. It’s hard and it comes with a toll. Right. So 

[00:20:30] It’s so much bigger than just that that money story plays such a huge role in it, but when you’re looking at the layers that come to that money story and taking a part of that layer like an onion to get to that sweet part, right?

[00:20:45] Linzy: I know. Yes, and something that I felt for a few years on the podcast, I talked about this a lot because this was part of my journey, but I’m thinking about it too, as you’re talking is like the grief that comes with that, as you do start to say like, no, I value myself. I’m going to step into this different place.

[00:21:00] Like if the folks around you, if your family and friends like are still kind of living this other story, and you’re choosing a different story, as you say, there’s, I’ve personally experienced part of the complexity is you’re choosing to live differently than the folks that you love. Yeah.

[00:21:11] Right? And then there’s, yeah, you’re disrupting. It makes me think about, the image for, like, kind of the family therapy model, the family constellation system, where everybody’s on a mobile, and if you start to move, everybody shakes, like there’s this disruption that happens to everybody. Yeah, you’re, you’re rocking the boat, and sometimes you’re also, challenging or imperiling relationships that are important to you, by choosing to live a different story than the one that has been inherited by your family and your community.

[00:21:38] I do agree with the grief. But I think some of that money story is inherited, not by choice, but necessarily just by design, by designing the system. So what, what I find, like within my community, within a lot of racialized communities, when you’re able to break that mold, people are cheering behind you.

[00:21:56] Chioma: People are rooting for your success. Right now I’m gonna talk a lot about the Black community because I think the term Black Excellence. We want you to break that narrative. You have people who laid the groundwork for you to be successful, and for you to have open opportunities.

[00:22:19] So there’s more of a part of there’s a generation before us that wanted this, but they couldn’t get access to it. So now the shift is how can we access it and feel worthy to be in that, right? Like I always say it all the time. I’m my ancestors’ wildest dreams. I am their wildest dreams.

[00:22:38] Because they wanted it. Did they have access to it? Did they have the resources for it? Were they able to connect to it? No, right? Because of again, that systematic barrier, that limitation that had been placed on their income, their value, right? So, while you have, a community be like, yes, break these chains, like, you know, feel empowered, like do this, it still is a lonely journey, like it still is a very isolating to be like, okay, now I’m the first one, I have an expectation, and I have, almost the burden of carrying the weight of my ancestors, or the people that laid the foundation, and that’s heavy.

[00:23:14] Linzy: Yes, absolutely.

[00:23:17] Chioma: I think it’s less about that grief, but the more about, It’s almost the opposite. It’s almost like a celebration, right? It’s a celebration that you’re there, but in that, that impact, because again, it is a lonely journey. It’s an isolated journey. You might be the only one setting the ground, setting the stage. Now it’s like, oh, okay, can I do this? Am I doing this? What other roadblocks or hurdles are going to come? And there’s that fight, right? I wish I could say, it doesn’t come without a fight, it doesn’t come.

[00:23:52] I wish I could say, like, maybe you’re taking down another layer of a brick or a roadblock or a stumbling block that’s there.

[00:24:00] You’re like, ouch! I stepped on that. I didn’t even know that existed or was there because… 

[00:24:04] nobody was in front of you. Nobody was setting that pace. I think about the image of, you know, equity, where they’re, they’re having that race, and you can see that, when, when you have it, you have it lined up with all the different races, and you can see that for Black individuals, our start is just starting.

[00:24:26] There’s no clue what’s ahead. Like no clue what’s in front, and that is scary. 

 [00:24:33] So, you’re going along this journey, and you’re rewriting your money story, right? You’re rewriting, you know, the relationship with it. You’re accessing more resources. You’re asking for more support and you’re still like,

[00:24:44] I don’t know what’s happening. There’s uncertainty.

[00:24:47] Linzy: Yeah, I’m really happy that’s your experience because I’m thinking like, right, so how much of my own experience of that is about being a white woman, a straight woman, and being policed by other women who are like, no, no, no, there’s certain rules here.

[00:25:03], this is getting my wheels turning now about my culture that I’m talking about, right, of like, yeah. The grief that has been dominant for me. But what I’m hearing from you is, is something that I, have experienced and talked with folks about a lot is like, you do end up having to find like new people, right?

[00:25:18] Like your people. And the beautiful thing about, The online space is sometimes through being online, you might find your person who’s in like Massachusetts who you have so much in common in this incredible story to be able to be like, Hey, I just tripped over this brick. You should know that it’s there.

[00:25:34] So at least you’re walking hand in hand, in that journey. Because yeah, like I’m hearing, yeah, being out ahead is lonely. Yeah. As you say, there isn’t that guide. There isn’t that parent to be like, Oh, this is what’s coming next in this process, because you’re out ahead of them.

[00:25:47] And when you were talking about, Black Excellence and being your, your ancestor’s wildest dreams, it also made me think of standing on the shoulder of giants, right? Like just all the foundational work, that was done by these previous generations, to get as far as things have gotten, which is not far enough.

[00:26:06] But yeah, there’s a sense of connection that I’m hearing here when you’re talking about that that sounds very, very strong and very powerful.

[00:26:13] Chioma: Absolutely. And I like that we’re an online community. And I think a part of that, tapping into culture, ethnicity is going back to collective and community, right? I always say there’s so much power in the community. There’s so much power in the collective. So I’m less of an individualistic person and more of how do I work or how do I find my people?

[00:26:38] Because I’m not going to lie as a business owner, as an entrepreneur. I can’t tell how many times where I’ve been like, I need a phone call from somebody, from a friend who gets it, who understands the day in struggles, the fluctuations with, am I going to meet my money mark this month? What, else do I need to be doing?

[00:26:58] Or am I missing? And it’s been that community that has reminded me of my worth. I am here for a reason. There is value in what I’m doing. I’m going to charge what I deserve. I had a conversation with, a gentleman a few weeks ago, and he was telling me how he got his first organization and I said, okay, what did you charge for that?

[00:27:20] And he’s like, I charged very, very low. And I was like, yeah, when he told me the number, I’m not going to share it. But when he told me the number. It was maybe one-fourth of what people usually charge when working with organizations. And I was like You, you undersold yourself.

[00:27:36] I was like, who are you talking to? He’s like, I didn’t have anyone to talk to about this. And I was like, I wish I had known you before. Cause I would have been like, no, like, but again, how we’re charging, we’ll have as Black individuals, we’ll be in space where businesses, people will be coming to us and we’ll be underselling our value, underselling our worth.

[00:27:57] Right. And it’s just in those simple ways that we do that feel so innocently. We’re like, Oh my goodness, someone’s going to pay this amount and you’re worth that. And more.

[00:28:08] Linzy: So what are some tips and tricks for racialized folks to rewrite their money stories and their relationship with money?

[00:28:18] Chioma: First, start talking about it. There’s a lot of us not talking about money or not feeling comfortable enough to talk about money because of, again, a lot of the shame, a lot of the stigma that came with it. So having that normalization of the conversation around money is going to be helpful. Second, finding community.

[00:28:37] I can’t tell you how blessed it has been for me to find community, to find people that I can connect with and understand, they’ve walked the road ahead of me, right? And then also knowing that you are worthy and you are valued. I think that the last bit is so important recognizing that I’m worth this.

[00:29:02] I’m here for a reason. This, this gift is something that I can appreciate and other people will see that worth.

[00:29:09] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Chioma, if folks wanted to learn more about you, actually that’s a question. Do you have offerings for other therapists and practitioners right now? Are you doing one on one? What do you have going on?

[00:29:22] Chioma: So I don’t have offerings for other therapists and practitioners. I mainly just work with individual clients and organizations at this time. Who knows what the future will have in store?

[00:29:34] Linzy: Seriously. Yes.

[00:29:35] Chioma: I don’t know what the future will have… If somebody wants to find me, they can find me on my Instagram at, inner compass underscore well-being.

[00:29:44] So that’s where somebody can follow me and then I’m on LinkedIn, chomaephagedia.

[00:29:48] Linzy: Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[00:29:51] Chioma: No worries. Thank you. It’s been an honor to hold space with you. So thank you.

[00:29:55] Linzy: Yeah. Thank you. 

[00:30:11] I so appreciated Chioma coming on the podcast today and starting to unpack this topic, sharing about it. I was saying to her afterward she really should have offerings for therapists. So if you feel similarly, if you’re like, Oh, this person has some great things to say, for those of us in the therapy space, definitely follow her on Instagram, keep an eye on her.

[00:30:31] She was mentioning to me, that she’s only two months into private practice, so she’s busy with that. But I could see great things coming from her in the future. Afterward, we also chatted a little bit about all these other things we could have talked about, like the deprofessionalization of people when they immigrate to Canada, people who are doctors and just like lose their status automatically when they come here, end up driving Ubers, and like what that’s going to do to your, your money stories and the financial impact of that.

[00:30:53] There are so many pieces to this. I appreciate Chioma coming on the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’m going to ask you to leave a review. I’ve been asking you to tell family and friends, but let’s mix it up a little bit.

[00:31:07] If you can head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review, maybe share about which episodes you particularly enjoyed, and what you like about the podcast. That is a great way for other therapists to find us and to be part of these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.