Meet Jenet Dove

[00:00:00] Jenet: My next step would be to create a two year plan, which, I mean, we’ve kind of already done. That feels very safe to do. And then also think about how I can leverage that 5K to set a foundation.

[00:00:24] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:48] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with a recent Money Skills for Therapists grad. Jenet Dove is an LPC who supports overfunctioning perfectionists with managing burnout and depression. And today we get into a topic that, as we talk about a bit in the episode, we also dug into a bit during her time in Money Skills for Therapists, which is her relationship to debt and managing debt.

[00:01:15] We dig into perfectionism today, perfectionism around debt, and talk about Jenet’s aggressive debt repayment strategy that she’s using and kind of the costs for that. We explore some alternatives to that, and explore her other successfully saving in the business, like having a business financial system that is actually really working,

[00:01:35] but having some financial struggles or seeing debt grow at home and what to do about that. This is a very actionable podcast. By the end, we really get into some very specific, next steps for Jenet to make changes to her system and the way that she’s managing her money to alleviate the stress about debt.

[00:01:53] Here is my conversation with Jenet Dove.

[00:01:56] Linzy: So Jenet, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:15] Jenet: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:17] Linzy: I’m excited to have you. I was excited when I saw your name on our list of folks who had asked to come on the podcast, because as I was just saying to you off mic, it’s exciting for me to get to talk with grads because I want to know what’s happened since I saw you last a few months ago.

[00:02:33] So yeah, we were saying that you probably finished up the course about four months ago, three months ago.

[00:02:37] Jenet: Yeah, I would say maybe around October, November, of last year. Yeah. Tail end of last year.

[00:02:44] Linzy: Okay. So it’s been like a quarter at this time of recording. So what do you want to focus on, on our time together today?

[00:02:51] Jenet: think overall just kind of the bigger picture with confidence and finances, specifically,having grace for not knowing what we don’t know, but then holding ourselves accountable for what we do know, like once you know, you have to do better. And I think that that piece can be very challenging to balance as well.

[00:03:14] Linzy: Yes. Okay. Okay. So tell me what things are looking like then. Like, what is coming up around this tension between grace and holding yourself to what you know? Where’s the pain?

[00:03:26] Jenet: You know, I took the course and I’m feeling, uh, there’s were a lot of big insights from that course for me in terms of not only just managing the money, but also in terms of some foundational pieces like you and your business are two separate entities.

[00:03:42] And while my practice might be generating six figures, it doesn’t mean I’m paying myself six figures and like keeping those two things very separate. But even within that, the budgeting piece and the cash flow management, all of that, that’s a lot for, for practice owners, especially given that

[00:03:59] That’s really not our forte, you know? And so the grace is knowing that mistakes are going to happen. And I’m sure there’s some type of timeline for, finally getting to where you want to be. in terms of being able to manage your finances, but also, being responsible and accountable for, like I said, when you do know better, you do really have to start being intentional and doing better.

[00:04:24] And that’s a lot of effort.

[00:04:26] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I feel like what you’re talking about is almost like a bigger philosophical tension that we all kind of grapple with in life, which is like, when are you kind to yourself? When do you give yourself a break? When do you push yourself or hold yourself to a boundary that you’ve set? So zooming in, tell me right now, what are things looking like in your financial management?

[00:04:45] Jenet: So I am kind of at a place now where I’m, I’m kind of expanding my team with this. And so, I’m very big about not necessarily practicing within my scope cause that’s my practice, but like focusing on what’s passionate for me. And that really is just the work within my clients and disseminating information and outside of my practice in any ways that I can as well. But the financial piece is one of those things that I’ve realized… now that I kind of have a better grasp on what it actually is going to take to manage it and get to where I want to go with it… you know, I’m outsourcing. I’m hiring an accountant.

[00:05:25] Linzy: Great.

[00:05:26] Jenet: To just really help me kind of manage my cash flow And really helped me get on top of that, outside of what I’ve been able to do with You Need a Budget, and the software, and obviously the skills that I learned within your course, I just think that it’s going to take, some more initiative and steps and what that is acknowledging that.

[00:05:50] I’m not going to be able to do this on my own and that’s okay. That’s part of like where I give myself grace, because if I keep going through it as if I’m on my own, as I am doing now, I think that’s where I struggle with the grace and the accountability.

[00:06:04] It’s like, I’m trying to hold myself accountable for something that I’m just having so much difficulty with.

[00:06:10] That’s where the realization of, okay, I need, I need more help with this.

[00:06:14] Linzy: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s a couple of pieces that stick out to me here right away. One is you’re saying that you’re expanding your team. Are you bringing in other clinicians? Tell me what

[00:06:24] that looks like when you say

[00:06:25] Jenet: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. What I meant by expanding my team was like on the back end.

[00:06:30] Linzy: Gotcha. Your support. You’re expanding your supports. Gotcha. Beautiful. Okay. Great. Great. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that’s good clarifying. Cause I was like, is your business getting a bunch more complicated? No, you’re expanding your team around you.

[00:06:42] Jenet: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:06:44] Linzy: So then the second piece, I think, of this question of, you know, you’re talking about giving yourself grace about needing support.

[00:06:52] Jenet: Hearing that reflected back to me, I can kind of see where you’re going with that. Yeah.

[00:06:58] Linzy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because when you mentioned grace at the beginning, this is a total assumption. I assumed that it was like, maybe you had forgotten to do some things or like, you know, like having to forgive yourself for making a

[00:07:08] mistake in your practice, or those kinds of things, which also is an area that we all need grace.

[00:07:12] Jenet: Absolutely.

[00:07:13] Linzy: But what you brought up right away is that, like, you’re giving yourself grace that you’re hiring an accountant and getting more support to help you solidify your skills.

[00:07:22] Jenet: Yeah, because I think there’s just, you know, I’m a self proclaimed recovering perfectionist, so we really struggle with, you know, we’re just supposed to know how to do things, and do them right and perfectly. And being able to look in the mirror and say out loud, you know, this is what I want to do.

[00:07:37] This is not my forte.

[00:07:38] I’ve tried.

[00:07:39] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:07:41] Jenet: And I, I tried very hard. And I need more help.

[00:07:45] Linzy: Yes.

[00:07:45] Right. And perfectionism is also where your clinical focus is, right? Like a recovering perfectionist. Do I remember that right?

[00:07:52] Jenet: Yes.

[00:07:52] Linzy: Yes. Okay. So yeah, not surprisingly, you’re very insightful about this part of yourself, because that is what I’m hearing is part of it is coming to terms with the fact that you, you can’t do something all by yourself.

[00:08:07] Jenet: Correct.

[00:08:08] Linzy: And I’m curious, Jenet, like, what is the story that comes up when you have to confront not being able to just handle something all by yourself?

[00:08:16] Jenet: Just, oh God. Linzy, is this supposed to be a tearful session? Because I already feel it coming.

[00:08:24] Linzy: Tears are welcome. Tears are welcome. I mean, this is where it is, though, right? Like, this is the stuff feeding into this.

[00:08:29] Jenet: Yeah, it is. It’s so because… absolutely. so what comes up is Well, you, you took on more than you can handle yeah, you don’t know what you’re doing. And this is why you shouldn’t have… This is what you get for, you know, trying to branch out and, you know, start your own practice and do all these great things for yourself.

[00:08:49] And look, now you, you can’t handle your finances.

[00:08:53] Linzy: So what does this prove? For, according to this voice, this critical voice, like, what does this prove or show you?

[00:08:58] Is this about not being worthy, not being safe, not being good enough? Like what is this telling you?

[00:09:06] Jenet: This is more so, this is why you should stay small.

[00:09:12] Linzy: This is a story I know well. Yes. Okay. This is why you should stay small because you can’t handle all the complexity of being bigger and wanting more. So this is reinforcing for a part of you you got to stay small.

[00:09:26] Jenet: Yes, yes.

[00:09:27] Linzy: Okay. I have a question for you and for, for that part of you maybe. Just to flip it on somebody else, I have a team that supports me of, I don’t know, maybe like six people who do all sorts of things that are not my zone of genius.

[00:09:47] Like my marketing, my tech, I don’t know how my tech works, Right? Like managing my email inbox, all of these kinds of things.

[00:09:54] Jenet: Right.

[00:09:55] Linzy: Does that mean that I’m not equipped to run a business?

[00:10:00] Jenet: I would say no, probably that you’re more equipped because you’re able to assess your strengths and weaknesses and then outsource and fill in those gaps as needed.

[00:10:10] Linzy: So, I mean, this is not the most, you know, revelatory intervention, but doesn’t that just say the same thing about you?

[00:10:17] Jenet: Yeah. But, you know, it’s always harder to apply it to… Things don’t apply to us, Linzy.

[00:10:22] Linzy: I know. We’re the exception. We have to do it perfectly and alone, even if other people get help, right? Because Part of what I’m hearing too is like… Well, first of all, I always want you to have an accountant. Always, right? We all need accountants. I have an accountant. There’s no way I could possibly know a tenth of what my accountant knows about tax codes and things that frankly I don’t want to know about.

[00:10:44] So that’s really important. I’m really glad you’re bringing on that team member. Something else, Jenet, that we talk about in the course that I want to emphasize and dig into here is like, you can outsource tasks. You can’t outsource the leadership and the big picture decisions.

[00:11:00] I wonder how it would sit with you. If you think that you’re outsourcing the tasks to this accountant, I’m not sure exactly what your relationship with them is going to be, but you’re outsourcing the tasks, helping them share their expertise with you so that you can be more grounded as you know, a financial leader, you know, making the big picture decisions for your business.

[00:11:22] How does that kind of framing sit with you?

[00:11:24] Jenet: I think that, that feels very settling.

[00:11:27] Linzy: Because part of the… You know, Money Skills for Therapists has evolved over time. And I think when it first started, because I was a small business, because I started this course in 2018, I was teaching people to be their own bookkeeper. Because I was like, we’re little, we don’t make a lot of money. Why would you pay a bookkeeper?

[00:11:43] You could do it yourself. You know, something that has evolved and changed as the course has grown over time and as my business has grown is now, my goal for students is that you have the financial literacy and the groundedness and that like big picture to understand like, these are my goals, this is what I want my paycheck to look like.

[00:12:01] But if bookkeeping is causing you almost any friction at all, I want you to outsource it as soon as you feel like you’ve got your feet under you in terms of that financial grounding.

[00:12:10] For you, how is the bigger picture stuff feeling at this moment? Of your ability to like, think about what you want for your life.

[00:12:18] I know you were paying down some debt when we worked together. Tell me about those pieces of money right now. What’s happening there?

[00:12:25] Like, do you see yourself being able to hold that big picture stuff more and just see this as like outsourcing a task? Is that a framing

[00:12:32] Jenet: I

[00:12:32] Linzy: possible for you?

[00:12:33] Jenet: I think because… If something is not working the way it is now, you obviously need to be doing something differently, right? And so I think that’s kind of my mindset of, okay, this is me doing something differently, in, in hopes of getting a better outcome. And so I would say. Yes. I think what your course helped me do is, you know, there’s a lot of big insights within that work, but also it did give me the tools to try to manage my cashflow on my own.

[00:13:06] And, and through that, I realized I can’t manage my cash flow. I need someone else. And so, that block is still kind of there in terms of like not quite being where I want to be with that piece. I think what gives me hope is that, you know, my practice generates six plus figures. So I know the money is there.

[00:13:31] Right. And so that part is not… I think it would be even more daunting if the money wasn’t there. But because it is, it’s like this feels manageable, but there’s something I’m missing that I’m not able to see. And someone else needs to come in and look at this, and

[00:13:48] shed some light onto what that piece is.

[00:13:51] And I’m, I’m very hopeful that that’s what this accountant is going to be able to do for me.

[00:13:56] Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:13:57] Jenet: It feels like the puzzle piece is almost like clicking, but it’s not quite there yet.

[00:14:02] Linzy: It’s just slightly off kilter. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So tell me what does feel like it’s not working in your cash management?

[00:14:12] Jenet: So I currently have an S-corp set up and that was something that was provided as a strategy for me for tax purposes and cash flow management as well, to an extent. And so what that S-corp set up has allowed is the creation of a very tight budget. This is your set paycheck that you receive from the S corp and that is it.

[00:14:35] So it’s like a very, very tight budget for that piece. And so it has allowed me to see, okay, I can live on a lot less than I thought that I once originally needed. And also, and this is actually through your course as well, just being more mindful of spending habits.and just kind of tightening that up as well.

[00:14:56] So doing the things that are within your control. I think where I… where my frustration comes in is that, okay, I’m doing these things. I’m doing these things Yet something just feels like it’s… it’s not quite gelling, you know, I know life is going to keep like lifing in terms of like, I just had to pay, you know, almost 2, 000 yesterday for my car.

[00:15:22] We talked about this in the course, you know, the AC went out and then this happened and that happened. And so, you know, life will life. And I think some of those things also kind of contribute to this. I’m not prepared, like I am not, you know, I’m not ready, you know, I’m never, there’s never going to be a moment in life where I do not have debt.

[00:15:45] I know I’ve unpacked a lot about my relationship with debt in the course, and it’s still frustrating for me. It’s still frustrating for me that it’s there. It’s just there. And I know some of the things that have been helpful in your course is that debt provides us a way to, you know, take care of things that we need to take care of.

[00:16:05] My debt has always been manageable. But at the end of the day, it’s like it’s not stopping.

[00:16:14] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:16:15] Jenet: And that’s the cash flow piece that’s frustrating for me. It’s like I mean, it may not ever get down to zero, especially, you know, as a small business, you do need to, you know, invest in yourself.

[00:16:24] I get that.

[00:16:26] Jenet: But what is that manageable number? You know, what is, what does that look like? That is kind of the piece where I’m looking for a little bit more expertise and like more strategy around.

[00:16:37] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I will tell you, that that is more of a personal finance.

[00:16:44] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:16:44] Linzy: Just as you’re thinking about who’s going to help you kind of crack the code on this. An accountant will be helpful in helping you look at things like your systems in your business and your obligations. And they might be able to make some suggestions there.

[00:16:54] But part of what I’m hearing is like, you’re not paying down your debt at the rate you want to be. And it’s feeling hopeless. It feels like it’s always going to be

[00:17:01] Jenet: Yeah. Well, yeah. And then also

[00:17:04] Linzy:

[00:17:04] Jenet: life happening. How do you balance that? You know?

[00:17:07] Linzy: Yes, for sure. Because with that, Jenet, like something that makes me think of is building that buffer at home, because as you said, life happens, you said life, life’s right, like there’s so many ways to say this, like, you know… We can only expect the unexpected, you know, like I had a January like this where my car had 3, 000 of unexpected repairs needed.

[00:17:28] I found out that summer camps, you pay for them in January. I didn’t know that. So suddenly we had to register my son and like a few thousand dollars for summer camps. I was like, God, January, that was terrible. Next year I’ll know that, you know, summer camps happened in January, but this year I just didn’t.

[00:17:42] Right. So it was just like that suddenly this big pile of expenses just to manage life. And what I’m curious about is in your personal finances, what are you doing right now to anticipate that?

[00:17:53] Jenet: Nothing.

[00:17:55] Linzy: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:57] Jenet: And you know, other than the tightening of the budget, that has been the biggest thing I’ve been able to do. And I think that’s where a little bit more strategy is going to be helpful is everything… And I, this is something I still haven’t worked on from your course, but everything that comes in that’s extra goes to the debt.

[00:18:14] I don’t put it in savings. I’m not creating a buffer. It just goes to the debt. And so, yeah,

[00:18:22] Linzy: Yeah. Because we talked about this in the course. Like, it’s kind of like this thing where you put so much on the debt, cause you’re just trying to get the debt down as much as possible, but then there’s no buffer. So then if your fridge breaks, your car breaks,

[00:18:32] it has to go back on the debt.

[00:18:34] So you’re watching the debt shrink, grow, shrink, grow more. Yeah. And tell me like for you emotionally, what happens when you have to put more money on the debt again?

[00:18:45] Jenet: My response to it is, it’s a lot better than it was. So I think, your course for sure, has really helped me with my emotional response to stress, money stressors. And so nothing ever feels like a crisis anymore. so that has been very… Like my nervous system might go into flight for a minute, but then I’m able to like get it regulated

[00:19:10] Linzy: Yes. Okay. So I’m glad that emotionally it’s not feeling so intense anymore.

[00:19:16] Jenet: It’s more so practical now when I have to do it, it just has to get done, like you, you know, your car’s not starting, what are you going to do? It just has to get done,

[00:19:25] Linzy: Okay. So with that, then like what I’m hearing is it’s kind of like you’re, you’re still just living life normally, right? I don’t think you’re necessarily spending more because you’re putting a lot of money on the debt, but it just does mean that when those unexpected things come up, the credit card is the tool or that you have to pay it down because there isn’t this cash buffer, right?

[00:19:44] I don’t know if the issue is that you’re paying it off too aggressively and then needing it.

[00:19:52] It sounds to me like that causes the emotional duress which used to be much worse. Now it’s just kind of like, ugh, okay, I got to use the credit card again because I need my car to start. So, but it doesn’t sound to me like it’s actually costing you more financially.

[00:20:03] Right? It’s not kind of like when people go into the like the restrict and purge with money where by restricting you actually end up spending more because you’re denying yourself. To me it just sounds like where the money is, if you’re putting it on the credit card, and you’re putting money on the credit card more and you’re taking money off the credit card more.

[00:20:18] You’re just using the credit card more.

[00:20:19] Jenet: Yeah,

[00:20:19] Linzy: But what I’m hearing overall is this debt is not going away as fast as you want it to, which is more a question of having extra money that you’re not going to need, right? Like that extra money in your household budget that isn’t going to be called on to take care of your life.

[00:20:32] Jenet: yeah, I think what’s, what’s coming up for me is, you know, I still use the Profit First, structure.but as I’m talking this through, I realized that my profit line, anything that comes up in that, whatever that number is, it goes to my debt. I’m not putting it away for profit. part of this might be, Talking it through, part of this might be a man made problem…

[00:20:56] Might be, you know, very self-inflicted. But it’s also, I kind of hear one of my clients’ voices now, you know. It’s like, so what am I supposed to do? I’m just supposed to, you know, stay in debt forever?

[00:21:07] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And the answer is no. Definitely not. Right? What it makes me wonder is where’s the actual problem and where’s the actual spot where an intervention can happen to make the solution? Right? Because, I know that your practice… You said you have a six figure practice, which is awesome.

[00:21:24] You’re also, if I remember, like a solo earner, right? And you have a child.

[00:21:29] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:21:30] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. I’m just going to say, as a starting place, that makes life harder. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. But it’s like, there isn’t that second income to like, share the groceries. It’s like, it’s all on you.

[00:21:42] Are you still using your profit first calculator?

[00:21:44] Jenet: I do. I do. And so, the S-corp pays me two times a month and then everything that is remaining from that month, from my business gets put into the profit first calculator and then distributed accordingly.

[00:21:58] Linzy: Okay. Yeah So you’re getting those distributions after your set paycheck, then everything else gets divided. Okay, great.

[00:22:04] Jenet: That set paycheck that you’re getting home, how much is that per month?

[00:22:08] Yeah, so I’m only paying myself 2,600 two times a month.

[00:22:12] Linzy: Yeah, okay, yeah. And

[00:22:13] Are you taking extra money out of the business then, like that profit money that we’re talking about?

[00:22:17] Jenet: Yeah, and so there’s taxes that are on the 2, 600. And then I put away for taxes for the profit as well. So taxes are another line item. Even though my accountant pulls taxes for the 2, 600, I have a line item for taxes for the profit.

[00:22:33] Linzy: Yes, which is great. And how much is that? That profit money that you get to take out?

[00:22:38] Jenet: So let’s say about, there’s an extra 5,000 after payroll, right, remaining, in the business for the month. And so that will come out to about 1,250 in profit.

[00:22:49] Linzy: So what I’m adding up is 5,200, like two 2,600 dollar paychecks, plus an extra 1,250 is 6,450.

[00:22:58] And I’m curious, like, how much is your basic cost of living? Like for rent or mortgage,

[00:23:04] Jenet: Yeah. I would say the 52 pretty much covers my cost of living, including my daughter, grocery, mortgage, et cetera.and

[00:23:19] Linzy: base living.

[00:23:20] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:23:21] Linzy: And then the 1250?

[00:23:22] Jenet: The 1250 is typically going to debt.

[00:23:24] Linzy: Debt. Right. That goes onto your debt. But then something else comes up and then you end up taking out the debt to pay for something else. Okay. So, with this, two things that I’m thinking about. One is, with money as it is,

[00:23:37] can you look at putting more towards the debt, right, and keeping that money on the debt, right, like basically reducing your living expenses so that, you know, your life is costing you a lot less than 6,450. Because what I’m hearing is the 5,200 covers like your normal living expenses, but of course there’s these annual expenses that come up, these one time expenses, the emergency expenses, right?

[00:23:59] And so that’s, that would be one angle on this, Jenet, right? Is like, how do you bring down your living expenses more so that the 6,450 is like more than enough. And even if your car breaks,

[00:24:11] you can still pay for that and leave money like the pay down on the debt is still going steadily. That’s one thing.

[00:24:18] Do you see spots for wiggle in your personal living expenses?

[00:24:21] Jenet: I’m not going to say no. Because when I started your course, I felt the same way. Like there’s no room for wiggle. And then somehow I’m living off of 5, 200, you know? And

[00:24:32] Linzy: 5,200. Yes.

[00:24:33] Jenet: Yeah. So I will never say never. I’m pretty sure it’s possible. I just don’t know what that looks like.

[00:24:40] Linzy: Okay. Okay. So there’s a maybe there. There’s some possibility, some curiosity. Maybe there’s something, a few things that you could eliminate because something we talked about in the course is like this kind of slow and steady with debt, right? Like, how do you set a slow, steady pace with a goal?

[00:24:56] Which is like starting to look at my debt is 8, 000. I want to pay it down in two years. I’m going to slowly pay it down and

[00:25:04] Jenet: Okay, see I’m glad you said that. Because when I hear paying down 8, 000 in two years… we’re taking two years to do that?! Thank you.

[00:25:15] Linzy: Maybe, I don’t know. Tell me what was that? What just came up?

[00:25:17] Jenet: Yeah. So that’s, I mean, I’m curious about that. Like, where do we get the two years number from? And I think that is the problem where I… I have probably just such a poor relationship with debt that even though I can acknowledge that it gets us to a place to be able to do certain things temporarily within our lives that we weren’t able to, it’s still like, you need to pay, you shouldn’t have it.

[00:25:40] You know, like it shouldn’t be there. And so when I hear like a two year goal, honestly, when I hear the two year goal, I’m like, okay, there’s, that’s relief. That’s the relief I needed to hear, but I’m also, there’s that part of me. That’s like two years. Linzy, no! There’s eight months left in this year.

[00:25:57] We need to use those eight months to pay off the rest.

[00:25:59] Linzy: You gotta like, get her done. And part of where I’m suggesting this, Jenet, is the get her done strategy is not working for you.

[00:26:06] Jenet: it’s not, it’s

[00:26:08] Linzy: It’s not. For some people it works. I have known people before who can be very self sacrificing, eat very simply, not buy any new clothes, wear stretched out old clothes, you know, cause they don’t care.

[00:26:21] Cause they’d rather, you know, pay down debt and have money in the bank. What I’m hearing is for you, it doesn’t seem to be giving you the results that you want, So let’s talk actual numbers. How much debt are you paying down?

[00:26:33] Jenet: Okay, I just pulled that up.

[00:26:36] It has increased. We’ve had some big expenses with my car recently. I just mentioned so… When I was with your program, it was only like, you know, 6k. No big deal. Now it’s at 9k unfortunately. Like 9. 8 is where we are. Mm hmm

[00:26:57] Linzy: Okay. So almost 10K if we’re going to be rounding.

[00:27:00] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:27:01] Linzy: Your debt is growing with this strategy. Yeah. And what emotions go with that for you?

[00:27:07] Jenet: Laughter.

[00:27:10] Linzy: Yes. Not an emotion. Probably more of a coping, but…

[00:27:14] Jenet: yeah. Because it’s, you know, I think you said it, like it’s not working for you, that you want it to work for you. I’ve sacrificed what I believe I can sacrifice to make it work for me. And, it’s growing. Like you said, it’s growing, you know?

[00:27:31] Linzy: It’s going the wrong way.

[00:27:32] With this in mind then, I think there is going to have to be a two pronged solution here. Slow and steady. What if we just give your nervous system a break? What if your goal is to pay the debt down in two years? And, and to look at that, you can look at a credit card repayment calculator online. In fact, let’s look at one together right now, because I think it’d be good for us to have actual numbers here.

[00:27:53] Okay. So here’s one from Experian.

[00:27:56] want to find one that lets you set an amount of time and tells us how quickly you can pay it down.Okay. So your debt is 9, and I’m going to share my screen with you.

[00:28:05] Jenet: I was looking to see what my interest rate is on this card.

[00:28:09] Linzy: Yeah. That’s great.

[00:28:10] Jenet: That has to be a factor in it as well.

[00:28:12] Linzy: Okay. So, yeah. What’s your interest rate?

[00:28:15] Jenet: Here it is. Okay. 22.

[00:28:17] Linzy: 22. Okay.

[00:28:18] Jenet: 22.24.

[00:28:23] Linzy: So pay it off within a certain time frame. It automatically put two years. Just saying the calculator likes that number. So if we put this in, we’re just going to be curious, Jenet, of what’s going to come up. I’m going to calculate. And it’s saying you’d have to pay 510 a month. How does that number land with you?

[00:28:39] Jenet: I mean, that’s beyond manageable.

[00:28:41] Linzy: Okay. Beyond manageable is a good thing.

[00:28:44] Jenet: Mm-Hmm.

[00:28:45] Linzy: Okay. Okay. So beyond manageable. And what do you notice it feels to make a plan that is beyond manageable?

[00:28:50] Jenet: I’m more curious now as to… I think I’m a little frustrated now because it’s like, why have I been so resistant to that? Mm-Hmm.

[00:29:02] Linzy: So let’s… we’re going to pull it apart a little bit. We’re going to say part of you is frustrated with the part of you that has been like resistant, wanting to pay it down faster. The part that wants to pay it down faster. Why? Why does that part want to pay down as fast as possible?

[00:29:18] Jenet: I think it’s more so about my messaging around debt. Even though I feel like it’s not as emotionally charged as it used to be. I think it’s just more so, I don’t know where it’s at right now. It’s in a confused spot right now. It’s very gray right now.

[00:29:35] I can’t find the words to really articulate what my relationship with debt is right now.

[00:29:40] Linzy: Yeah. Maybe it’s in transition. Maybe it’s settling into something different and you don’t know what that is yet. Because part of what it makes me wonder about is like, you’re a recovering perfectionist. You like progress, right? Like we like to see shit getting done.

[00:29:52] It makes me wonder, What if you put no more money on this particular card and you just pay down this like 520 bucks a month so you see it shrinking and you keep the rest of the money in your personal bank account, and then you see what happens in terms of your personal expenses. Does that money give you enough to pay for the car repairs?

[00:30:12] Actually start to have an emergency fund at home where it’s like every month you’re also setting aside 400 bucks for emergencies, 500 bucks for emergencies, so three months later or four months later when that 1500 car repair comes up, you’re like. I got that. If we just separate these things out so that the debt is only going down, you get to see yourself make progress and you get to start to develop this money management system at home that anticipates that life lives.

[00:30:38] How does that sit with you?

[00:30:39] Jenet: The frustration is very prominent right now, Linzy. I’m not even going to lie. Like that’s just, I…

[00:30:44] Linzy: Don’t lie.

[00:30:46] Jenet: I’m very frustrated right now.

[00:30:48] Linzy: Tell me about the frustration.

[00:30:49] Jenet: I think it’s, I don’t know. I’m upset with myself. Listen, this is one of those things where it’s like, Okay, Jenet, you should have known, you should have done better. It’s like, why was I so resistant? Maybe I’m frustrated that my aggressive strategy didn’t work, isn’t working, didn’t work, you know?

[00:31:06] Linzy: It sucks.

[00:31:07] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Linzy: It sucks. It’s like, we want to know that when we make sacrifices, that when we make life hard, we’re going to get something back for it.

[00:31:15] Right.

[00:31:16] Linzy: And it didn’t work.. So I’m hearing frustration at the strategy.Is there more frustration at yourself, too?

[00:31:22] Jenet: I think it’s more frustrating… Because I’ve heard you say this. This is not my first time hearing you say slow and steady, you know? And so it’s also frustration for like, not listening, you know, So there’s some of that coming up and, and then also frustration because like, is it really that easy?

[00:31:46] Linzy: Hmm. Mm. Right.

[00:31:49] Jenet: It’s been feeling so hard. And then When I see it this way, it’s like, yes, it’s two years, but where are you gaining? You know, what are you getting from that?

[00:32:02] Linzy: Is there a belief that money is hard? So you’ve been making it hard. And so just thinking that it could be easy, it just doesn’t fit with what you’ve believed or what you’ve learned or what you’ve experienced.

[00:32:15] Jenet: I think it’s a belief that, well, not even a belief, just my experience with it has been hard. And so that’s my reality. It’s been hard. And then to see this laid out as an…

[00:32:27] Linzy: yes.

[00:32:28] Jenet: it’s relatively simple to see that. And so that is also frustrating. Like, You’ve been, you know, like walking through quicksand by your own choice, you know, by your own choosing, you know?

[00:32:42] Linzy: Yes.

[00:32:43] I’m hearing a lot of self judgment here.

[00:32:52] Okay. So if we could soften this a little, if you can be kind, if you can be kind to Jenet of every moment in time up until three minutes ago. Because we like her.

[00:33:05] Jenet: yeah.

[00:33:06] Linzy: What would be a kinder perspective on how you’ve come to be in this place?

[00:33:11] Jenet: You’re learning how to make your money work for you.

[00:33:16] Linzy: And why did you end up where you were, where you were making things hard or being hard on yourself? Like, where did you learn that money is hard?

[00:33:23] Jenet: So part of me wants to say that I don’t know that I’ve learned money as hard. It’s just that it’s been my experience.

[00:33:31] Linzy: Which is learning.

[00:33:32] Jenet: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just through my experience,

[00:33:36] Linzy: Yeah. It’s been hard! Yes.

[00:33:39] Jenet: It’s been hard as a private practice owner, you know. I think it’s also discouraging to see all this money coming to your practice. But… So your business is thriving. I get my business savings looks amazing, you know, but it’s like, okay, on the other end, That’s where the disconnect is for me.

[00:34:04] And that’s, that’s frustrating as well.

[00:34:07] Linzy: For sure. that experience of money having been hard for so many years…

[00:34:12] it makes sense that it’s going to take you a minute to catch up to your new situation,

[00:34:16] to all that you’ve built, which I’m sure has been hard earned, right? To get to where you are, where now you can have a private practice and you can charge fees that get you paid well, right?

[00:34:27] Like all of that is decades and decades and decades in the making. So it makes sense that this becoming a possibility in the last few months that maybe this would have started to become possible that you could have the stability and connection with like, okay, I could do a slow and steady thing, and my money could serve in these other ways.

[00:34:45] That’s brand new compared to what’s happened in your life.

[00:34:49] That’s one piece that I’m thinking about here. The other piece is systems.

[00:34:53] Jenet: Mm.

[00:34:54] Linzy: You’ve built a system in your business that’s working for you,

[00:34:57] right? You’re talking about your business savings. So it also makes me curious about, you know, What are some systems that could be added in at home?

[00:35:02] So your home is getting the same kind of intentionality that your business is getting.

[00:35:08] Jenet: Absolutely. I don’t know if it’s… if there’s a way to like do like a microcosm of profit first with my personal expenses, you know,

[00:35:18] Linzy: For sure.

[00:35:19] Jenet: And a lot of my intentionality with my business has been to like. Over prepare and over save because of my former CPA, the 20K in debt. I think I told you a little bit about that. And so like making sure I have enough in savings to cover, this tax season or whatnot, which I do, which is great.

[00:35:41] I see how I am able to save, and I am able to prepare, and I’m able to pull from that. So I see that. I think it’s frustrating that it’s not translating to my personal life.

[00:35:51] Linzy: Yes. It hasn’t translated yet. Two questions. One,

[00:35:55] Linzy: you said you have lots of tax savings, like so you’ll be ready for this year. Do you think you might have some extra

[00:36:00] Linzy: that you saved last year?

[00:36:01] Jenet: Yes. I’ve saved way more than what I need.

[00:36:04] Linzy: Well, how much is way more?

[00:36:05] Jenet: I would say over 5k. Yeah. Extra.

[00:36:09] Linzy: Thinking about that 5k.

[00:36:10] If half of that 5k became your kind of emergency fund, your buffer at home, and half of it went on to your debt?

[00:36:20] Jenet: And so does that mean I’m not going to just have anything in my savings then?

[00:36:24] Linzy: You’ll be saving for this year’s taxes.

[00:36:26] Jenet: I mean, I know it’s going to regrow again, but Linzy!

[00:36:29] Linzy: Yeah, I know. But like, what I’m pointing out to you is like, first of all, there’s no reason to hold tax money from a previous tax season. Once your taxes are settled out and you know, okay, last year I over saved by five grand. I’ve already got my quarterlies like locked and loaded and started for this year.

[00:36:43] That money is not serving you sitting in your business because you’re not going to suddenly owe extra, extra next year because you’ve got a system locked in. You know that you’re saving an amount. You have an accountant keeping an eye on things with you. It’s not serving you. So what I’m hearing is your business is getting this like, super disciplined Jenet, who’s like, no, no, no, we will keep it there.

[00:37:03] And your home is getting this tightness and scarcity and like, Oh shit, I put money on the credit card again. Right. There’s a lack of integration there.

[00:37:12] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:37:13] Linzy: So part of it is a disciplined private practice owner, you know, like blossoming money boss Jenet over here. She needs to spend time at home.

[00:37:22] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:37:23] Linzy: Needs to make sure that you spread the wealth, like literally, that you’re spreading the wealth between your business, once you know those funds are available, and these personal pieces at home that have a serious impact on your daily quality of life.

[00:37:35] Jenet: Right.

[00:37:36] Linzy: What do you think about that?

[00:37:37] Jenet: I mean it, that is the goal

[00:37:39] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. Is there anything in the way of that goal?

[00:37:42] Jenet: I heard you say to disperse the remainder of the savings. I’m hearing you say like, that’s the strategy to do?

[00:37:50] Linzy: Not just savings, but your tax money that you saved from last year. Yes. So, I mean, in your business, it’s also to your benefit to have some operating expense buffer as well, right? Like, we don’t want you going down to, like, nothing. I also want you to have a bit of a buffer in your OpEx so that there’s a bit of money for next month or the next couple months.

[00:38:08] But otherwise, there’s no advantage to you just holding 5, 000 of cash in your tax account that you actually know you don’t need for last year’s taxes because you will be saving for this year.

[00:38:18] Jenet: Okay. That’s true. That’s true. That is true.

[00:38:22] Linzy: Future Jenet has this locked down, right? Like you have a system that’s working.

[00:38:26] Jenet: Okay.

[00:38:27] Linzy: If you can see that 5, 000 coming from your business, crossing the barrier into home and being dispersed between your credit card and starting to create, Like an emergency fund. How does that feel?

[00:38:41] Jenet: It feels unnerving a bit. Yeah. I don’t know why.

[00:38:44] Linzy: What’s unnerving about it?

[00:38:45] Jenet: It feels unnerving to like… I’m using the word mess up and that might not be the appropriate word, but that’s what’s coming up… Like mess up what I have over here at my business. to clean up what’s over here, you know,

[00:38:58] Linzy: I’m going to challenge you.

[00:39:00] You’re not messing up what you’ve done in your business. Your business has done exactly what it’s supposed to do, which it’s helped you to save and actually over save. And now your business’s job is to take care of you. Like you are the beating heart of your business.

[00:39:14] Linzy: You need to be well, and there’s no higher purpose that your business could serve

[00:39:18] than to help you have more ease and less stress at home so you can show up even better and even more present in the business.

[00:39:26] Jenet: Yeah. I’m a little apprehensive, Linzy, but I’m hearing you.

[00:39:31] Linzy: it. I hear it. I hear it. I hear it. Yes. Yes. So let’s think about action steps coming out of this conversation because we’ve covered a good amount of ground. Thinking about your next steps. What do you need to do coming out of this conversation to start to put some of these pieces in action?

[00:39:45] Jenet: You know, I think the other thing is a part of me, I don’t know that I trust myself anymore now. That’s the part of me is like, I don’t want to do anything until someone actually looks at my finances because like I, you know, and I hear, see you shaking your head. Okay.

[00:40:03] Linzy: And now that we have YouTube, people will see me shaking. My hair is bobbing in a funny way when I do it too. No. I mean, I hear that you’re hesitant. I want you to own your badassery. That’s not a word I use very much. But like, you have built a system in your business that works.

[00:40:16] It’s working. It’s continuing to work. Right. So like, I’m not saying like, jump right away. I’m saying once your taxes are settled out, your accountant says, there’s your tax bill. You’ve paid it. You can look back and see, okay, this is how much I put aside for last year. I’m already saving for this year.

[00:40:32] Maybe even revisit your percentages. Maybe you could bring it down a

[00:40:35] Jenet: I think I could bring it down 100%. This is very aggressive.

[00:40:38] Linzy: Because like, you should not be over saving in your business when you are hurting at home. That’s not integrated, right? We want separation, but we also want you to be okay.I wouldn’t like, actually challenge you to trust yourself and take action, right?

[00:40:57] I think you need to really settle into your power. Because part of what I’m hearing is you’re waiting for this accountant to tell you what to do.

[00:41:04] They can’t, they can’t tell you what to do,

[00:41:06] right? Like they could also make suggestions, right? But like you’re the boss, like, you know where the money is going to serve you well, you know where things are working, you know where they’re not.

[00:41:16] Linzy: Nobody, nobody can make that work except you, right? So I, part of it is I’m challenging you to own… own the skills that you have developed that I don’t think you’re really owning yet.

[00:41:29] Right? Because we started, obviously this is a coaching session, so we’re not coming just to talk about everything that’s working.

[00:41:34] But we started by talking about at home, how you feel like you’re kind of failing, falling behind, this debt is growing. Meanwhile, in your business, you have more than the extra debt that you’ve accumulated sitting in your business in cash. So both of these things are true. Both at home, this strategy has not been working and in your business, you’re kicking butt. You’re a disciplined queen of the universe. Right? Like both of these things can be true.

[00:41:56] Jenet: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:41:59] Linzy: So if you could trust yourself, what would be your next step coming out of this conversation?

[00:42:04] Jenet: My next step would be to create a two year plan. Which, I mean, we’ve kind of already done.?? That feels very safe to do. And, and then also think about how I can leverage that 5K to set a foundation.

[00:42:26] Linzy: Yes, What do you think about the idea of not using that credit card anymore?

[00:42:33] Jenet: Oh, that’s fine. I have no problem not using a credit card. 100%.

[00:42:39] Linzy: Okay, so you’re going to stop using that credit card. Let’s even say if you need to have a credit card for something, use a different credit card. Let’s almost like separate out these two bits of debt,

[00:42:51] Jenet: Okay. When you say that, tell me what you mean.

[00:42:55] Linzy: What I mean is you have been feeling this defeat because you’re not seeing progress happen on this card.

[00:43:00] What I want you to get the experience of is a card that’s just going down. You’re just seeing yourself pay it down, pay it down. It’s not growing again. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to have to use a credit card sometimes, but you could have a different credit card use at home. You put your car payment on it, you pay it off in cash.

[00:43:15] You start to develop that habit of paying down that card in cash every month. So it can still be part of how you manage cash, but it’s not a debt that’s growing. It’s just like another tool you have in your bank, but you pay it off every month while this credit card with the 9, 800 is steadily going down 500 bucks is going on it every, every month, and you’re seeing it go down, down, down over the next two years.

[00:43:36] Jenet: Okay. I think I get it. I, but tell me why I would need another credit card again.

[00:43:41] Linzy: if you need a credit card to make online purchases or… Yeah, that’s all. You might not need it. You might not need it at all. If you have a visa debit, you just might not need it. Was that a sigh of relief there?

[00:43:52] Jenet: Well, yeah, because what I don’t want to do is create the problem on another credit card.

[00:43:56] Linzy: Exactly. If you can get away with not having another card, I would say do that. Do that. Because what you are going to be doing is keeping more money in your bank account. You’re going to be starting to build a cash buffer in a savings account, which means that when the car repair comes up, you’re just going to pay in cash.

[00:44:12] So yes, I think that that is beautiful. If you can just… Your credit card is just going to go down. There’s going to be no other credit card. You’re going to be dealing in cash in the future. Okay. So that’s the next step. Stop using the credit card. So what I have here is create your two year debt repayment plan,

[00:44:27] which could be just like walking in the numbers that we just looked at or playing with them a little bit on a calculator, leverage that 5, 000 to set your foundation at home.

[00:44:35] Stop using that credit card. And just start paying with cash at home.

[00:44:39] Absolutely. So, what are you taking away from our conversation today?

[00:44:43] Jenet: You know, that aggressiveness, that professional aggressiveness is… It no longer serves… It hasn’t served me in a while in other areas of my life. And I’ve come to terms with that, but I think this is probably one of the last places where I was holding onto it.

[00:45:01] Linzy: Yeah, and part of me wonders, you know, like, from kind of like a parts of self perspective, where this is a part that’s trying to take care of you. How can you thank that part for what it’s been trying to do for you? Because that part cares about you, right? But you’re going to start going with a different strategy.

[00:45:14] Jenet: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:45:16] Linzy: What do you notice when you think about that?

[00:45:19] Jenet: Tearful. You know, I get it. It’s more about trying to keep myself safe and be proactive, but it’s not working.

[00:45:29] Linzy: Yeah, and you have, some new strategies that you can try now.

[00:45:32] Jenet: Absolutely.

[00:45:33] Linzy: Awesome. Jenet, thanks for coming on the podcast.

[00:45:36] Jenet: This has been great. I appreciate it. 

[00:45:53] Linzy: At the beginning of the podcast today, Jenet mentioned this piece about grace and giving herself grace. And she started by actually talking about grace, about needing help and like more support with her finances, having to give herself grace for that, because as a recovering perfectionist, she wants to be able to do everything herself.

[00:46:10] But now that I’m reflecting back on our conversation, I think the grace that could really serve her, and all of us as we’re managing our finances, is more of that grace around your goals and debt and setting a plan that gives you breathing room, especially as a solo earner, a solo parent. There’s so much that Jenet’s money needs to do for her, and this aggressive strategy that she set, which might work very well for some folks in certain situations, was not working for her.

[00:46:39] So I think a lot of the grace that’s actually called for when we are doing something really difficult that’s not working is the grace around letting ourselves make it easier, not make it painful. Make a plan that’s actually doable so that we can be paying down that debt but still also taking care of our life.

[00:46:57] And this is something we’ve talked about before on the podcast. This episode also reminds me of the conversation that I had with Erin Davis earlier. And in both these cases, we’re also talking about parents, right? Like people with young kids and that’s such a specific period of life.

[00:47:08] There’s definitely going to be times in your life where a more aggressive debt repayment strategy can make sense. When you’re in your 20s, you know, when you’re partnered with no kids, or when you’re single, or if you’re not planning to have kids and that’s not part of the equation, or if you’re older, and you’re ready to like really power up your savings, there can definitely be times that we have the bandwidth and the ability to be more aggressive and be very single minded about our finances, if that’s something that feels helpful to you.

[00:47:34] And there’s also times when we can’t. And when we do, as Jenet was experiencing, it just causes pain. And it causes that experience of failing, right? Because it’s like she’s trying to pay down her debt so aggressively, but there’s no cash, so then she’s having to put money back on debt.

[00:47:48] And even though, as I mentioned, logically, it’s still means that she’s paying less interest by doing that, the experiences that she’s losing, right? And so what we’re setting her up for now is an experience of winning where she’s going to be able to actually see that debt disappear and see herself saving money at the same time.

[00:48:04] The cashflow might actually look very similar to how money is being spent in some ways, but her experience of it is going to be so, so, so much more positive as she sees that credit card debt shrinking and that emergency fund, that buffer at home, growing. I think that’s going to be a very different felt and lived experience for her.

[00:48:22] And as she mentioned, something we’ve had to talk about a couple of times, which is true for all of us. We all have things that we need to revisit a few times until it shifts and it sinks in. So I’m very excited for Jenet implementing this new strategy around her debt. And I’m very grateful for her coming on the podcast today.

[00:48:40] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And. If you’re enjoying the podcast, leaving a review on Apple podcast is super, super helpful for us. Just so you can share what episodes you’ve been enjoying, what you really appreciate about the podcast or any big takeaways you’ve had from the podcast.

[00:48:56] That is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today.