Meet Chioma Janelle Efejedia

[00:00:00] Chioma: Start talking about it. There are a lot of us not talking about money or not feeling comfortable enough to talk about money because of, again, a lot of shame and stigma. So having that normalization of the conversation around money is going to be helpful.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Today’s guest is Chioma Janelle Efejedia. Chioma is a therapist who works with folks in tech, people of color, and tech. She is local to me. She’s in Kitchener, Ontario. I’m in Guelph, Ontario, so just down the road. And I had the pleasure of meeting her in person at an event recently.

[00:01:11] And we got talking about the idea for this episode today. Today, Chioma and I talk about racialized folks and money. We talk about culture and ethnicity and its impact on people’s money stories. We jam a little bit and brainstorm a little bit about systemic oppression, and just being in a white, Eurocentric culture, more individualistic, that impact of that

[00:01:33] on racialized people and their relationship with money. She talks about susu or partner, which is a collectivist model of finance. Lots of rich pieces here today. Here’s my conversation with Chioma Janelle Efejedia. 

[00:02:02] Linzy: So Chioma, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:04] Chioma: Thank you for having me here.

[00:02:06] Linzy: I’m excited to have you here. I think you might be the first person that I’ve had on the podcast because we met in person and you were like, I want to be on your podcast and talk about this thing. I was like, yes. So it’s exciting to be having this conversation with you. Cause I don’t get to meet a lot of people in person, working in the online space.

[00:02:24] But we’re both in the Guelph, Kitchener, Waterloo area in Ontario.

[00:02:29] Chioma: Yeah, we are and I think that’s so cool to have proximity to say, hey, you’re on the online space, we can connect in person, and we can also be virtual. 

[00:02:37] Linzy: It’s cool because I spoke at a local event for our OASW, Ontario Association of Social Workers. And then I remember you came up after and you were like, you are all over my Instagram, which is like always weird for me but that’s how Facebook advertising works. And you pitched this conversation today, which I’m excited to have.

[00:02:52] So can you tell folks a little bit about yourself before we dig into it?

[00:02:56] Chioma: My name is Chioma Janelle Effigenia. I am the founder of Intercompass Wellbeing, and I work a lot with diversity.

[00:03:02] I work from a culturally relatable, lens and responsive lens to make sure that the needs of racialized individuals are being met.

[00:03:09] Linzy: Great!And the topic that you suggested for today that I’m excited to start to dig into is racialization and money. Let’s start with kind of the bigger zoom-out, like how culture ethnicity, and race impact people’s money stories.?

[00:03:27] Chioma: That’s a great question. When it comes to our money stories from our family of origin, we all pick up and we all have a relationship of how we’ve seen our parents, our grandparents, and our culture deal with money. And the status that we’ve put on money or the status that money plays in our lives, right?

[00:03:48] We all know that money can be a tool and a resource, but based on where our cultural backgrounds are, based on what the norms are around money and how we are using money, there’s a story there. And when I work with Everest people, when I work with Black people, when I work with South Asian communities, they all have their money story.

[00:04:06] And I realized from the onset, even within my own experience, it’s different. It’s different from what a Eurocentric money story might be. It’s different from what the capitalistic ideology of money would look like. Not to say that influence doesn’t play a role. It does, but that relationship changes based on what part of the continent or what part of the world you’re in.

[00:04:32] Linzy: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there is this, it’s getting me thinking also about, about history and place and time, where you’re from, where your ancestors are from, like there’s very specific, there’s culture, but there’s also historical events that happen that are going to impact generations to come.

[00:04:47] Chioma: Absolutely

[00:04:49] Linzy: Yeah, and what are some specific examples of the kind of ethnicity, and culture showing up in folks’ money?

[00:04:56] Chioma: So, one of the ways that shows up is how people save money so for the black community, Jamaicans, Africans, they have this thing called partner susu. And, what it is, it’s a community way of saving. So, Western society, it’s big on credit. It’s big on debt and I like leveraging that to, be successful.

[00:05:15] Especially as business owners, we might take out a loan to start our business. But in a lot of other parts of the world, again, Jamaica, Nigeria, parts of Africa, they might say, okay, let’s communal save, right? So you have a monthly contribution of like, maybe it’s a hundred dollars equivalent to like a hundred dollars a month.

[00:05:33] So you have X amount and then that’s your seed, money to get your thing going. Right? And I think that communal lens of how we’re saving and how we’re using money is really important, but then. Also, when you bring it into the Canadian context it becomes credit. A lot of people don’t trust credit or a lot of racialized people are like, I don’t want to get into debt because that’s not a part of their cultural story.

[00:05:55] That’s not a part of the norm. So being able to take on credit debt or loans. Especially as business owners, becomes scary, right? It becomes something that it’s like, I wasn’t taught to do that. Even talking from my own experience, I wasn’t taught to do that. I was looked at like, you need to make sure your debt is as clean as possible.

[00:06:14] Like don’t get as much credit. Right. And I think that’s important, but also realizing that sometimes when you’re in Canada, you don’t have that ability to have that communal sharing of money. Right. So that’s how it can look different.

[00:06:30] Linzy: Yeah, and that like partner or susu, like the brain of my system, is so curious now… Tell me more about what that model looks like, like folks put in a hundred bucks a month, like say that’s your contribution. And then how does the community determine who takes out money? How much money do you take out?

[00:06:46] Chioma: So, I do Susu all the time. I do it here, too, so the way how it looks is what you put in is what you get out, right? So it’s usually a duration, so maybe 10 people get together, and they’re each putting 100, so you’ll have a list of when is your time, so maybe someone’s like, I need this money right now, so then they’ll get over, if it’s over 10 weeks, 100 times 10, They’ll get that amount and then it will kind of just filter. 

[00:07:11] So whoever’s the last person might get the bulk amount, right? So it just requires everybody to contribute and work together. And it is based on an honor system, right? Because you do have to have that level of communal trust. So that’s the logistics of how, like, Susu, or partner, would work.

[00:07:29] Linzy: Right, so folks can get out what they put in. So tell me then, this is my super individualistic brain that’s like, huh, I don’t get it. So tell me then the benefit of having everybody’s money together. If folks are entitled to their own, like, what is the real benefit, of folks pooling their money together then?

[00:07:46] Chioma: When you say faster if you have an expense coming up quicker. So, for example, maybe in a month or like in four weeks, you’re going to need bulk money and you’re not going to have that for, let’s say, the next, it’s going to take you longer to do it individually. You know that you can have this bulk money.

[00:08:05] Whatever that dollar, like, if that dollar amount is like 5, 000. I’m doing bad math right now. So, like, it doesn’t equate. You can have it sooner. And if you’re like, okay, I need to save for, like, a bigger expense, it’s, it’s a way to just help you save and have that accountability.

[00:08:20] Linzy: Yes, so folks can get basically like in advance is what you’re saying? Like you can get $5,000 sooner, but you’re committed to continue to put money in so the money, will replenish and be there when somebody else needs money.

[00:08:33] Chioma: Exactly.

[00:08:35] Linzy: Yeah, I am hearing there is a lot, of trust that would be between a group of people, because something that I think about even with, more individualistic Western Eurocentric society is sometimes even couples don’t share money, because there’s this fear that the other person could, like, spend all the money, right, and, like, take it away from you.

[00:08:56] And so that is a much more trusting way to be benefiting together. But yeah, there’s a real community aspect there that sounds like it would be central to making that work.

[00:09:08] Chioma: And absolutely. And that’s the part where, when you look at the culture and the ethnic differences, it’s based on the communal way of how money is used and shared versus the individualistic way, right? You hear the stats when it comes to, how, like, the dollar circulates in different communities, so, like, in terms of the Black community, it might circle, like, once or twice.

[00:09:29] If you look at the South Asian community, I think it’s a little bit more. I don’t have the numbers for that. When you look at, like, the white community, it’s, like, 20, it circles 20 times before it leaves that community. So, there’s that shift. There’s that shift when you look at what that communal sense is and how we’ve historically dealt with money and spending versus now you’re in a Western world, and it’s individualistic, and it’s breaking away from some of those cultural norms that were beneficial, still are beneficial.

[00:09:58] Linzy: Yeah, for sure. Because when you’re not doing that, I think we have to put our trust instead in systems, right? Like we put our trust in insurance, which, you know, for the Americans listening, who have to use insurance a lot, like sometimes insurance is on your side, and they do what they say what they’re going to do, but sometimes they fight you to do the thing that they promised they were going to do.

[00:10:17] Because it’s not people who care about you, right? It’s, it’s a system that’s based on profits, right? And I think the same about loans and banks we end up instead having to trust these large systems, but they are for-profit systems. They are there to make money. And they don’t care about the impact on you if you get in over your head or, yeah, they will even sell you things that maybe you can’t afford because they know they’re going to make more money off of you.

[00:10:43] So there’s a lot less of that, like care and community in the individualistic model.

[00:10:48] Chioma: Absolutely. And even just when you think about bank loans or you think about redlining and historically how Black communities have been marginalized from even having access to funding and access opportunities. So, shifting from that individual lens for racialized individuals, for Black individuals like me, gives me a better opportunity to say, okay, now I have the money or I can have the resource to be able to get what I need to get done.

[00:11:17] Because it is harder, it would be harder for me as a Black woman to get a loan versus yourself. Right. And that difference in terms of what it creates, and the economic movement that it comes from. So, shifting to like the system level of how money is, you know, racism and culture has such a huge impact.

[00:11:38] And when we’re able to tap into like, how do we use communal ways, of saving? How do we use, structure to make sure that we’re able to build capital? There’s a platform, called Wevo, now that kind of has that partner, Susu model of communal sharing. So, people are starting to say, okay, how do we go back to some of that narrative of communal sharing?

[00:12:03] Linzy: The phrase that comes to mind for me, which might be a newer phrase or more of like, kind of like a lefty activist phrase is like mutual aid, right? Of like communities supporting themselves. Are you familiar with the concept of mutual aid? Is that on your radar?

[00:12:18] Chioma: No, it’s not.

[00:12:20] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. I’m not sure exactly of similarities or differences, but, that mutual aid piece of, you know, there is that sense of, this is like our community like we care about each other, we trust each other, so we’re going to pool money together so that folks can access money in this more collectivist community-oriented way, and now, now I’m gonna have to like to go out of here and do a bunch of research on the these similarities or differences, between those systems, but yeah, what I’m hearing is it’s like you, historically and presently, can’t trust these, these larger systems to take care of you, which, on one hand, as for-profit systems,

[00:12:57] I think all of us can be screwed over by these large systems because they don’t care about anybody. But they don’t care about marginalized folks. And there’s all this systemic oppression baked into those systems, as you said, of like who can get a loan easily. Right? And whose loan might be recalled faster than somebody else’s.

[00:13:12] Like there’s so much history there, which also makes me think about systemic oppression, right? Cause we’re talking… The susu and partner is this cultural system, right? That exists in many places in the world. But I’m also thinking about when you come to a white supremacist culture, right? Like when you’re in a context where it is this Eurocentric white normative space, just to jam on this a little bit, how do you think that impacts folks’ money stories, right?

[00:13:42] Or yeah, how does that impact people, coming into a white supremacist culture when it comes to money?

[00:13:49] Chioma: I think it creates a lot of stigma, right? It creates a lot of stigma around money. It creates a lot of scarcity around money. It creates a disconnect between money as a resource and money as something that I need to hold tight on. Like I, you don’t know how to work it as well. So that, that usually is the, I want to say the trauma impact when it comes to

[00:14:11] Like the systematic racism that you see within institutions when it comes to money is when you have lack of, it creates this story of scarcity or this, this holding on to say my grandma used to say, you got to make every penny count. Right? And it was like saying you’re holding on to it tight, though, right?

[00:14:31] So it was can you do without or is this something that, you need right now? So it was more of a let’s fund our needs and if there is extra for our wants then cool. I can get that, but rarely. It’s not because access to those resources is harder, even when it comes to employment opportunities you find that marginalized individuals are usually underemployed, right?

[00:14:57] They might have the education, they might have the background, and they’re not. So then that money is tighter, right? And then you’re not able to access it the same way. Canada, North America. It’s expensive. Like it is expensive in this day and age. It’s expensive to live in. 

[00:15:11] So if you have an unexpected bill that comes up, it’s not like you can turn to the bank.

[00:15:16] I was talking to an adjudicator, yesterday. And, she was like, the bank has so many rules in terms of people getting access to support, and the rules get harder based on who you are, right? You would think that it’s all fair, but it’s not. And when it comes to that money story, those internalized systems that say we’re not connected to you as a human being or recognizing what your need is for right now, but we’re going to save. Sorry, you don’t have access to this, or you’re taking out payday loans, which have higher interest rates, right? It builds a sense of mistrust. It builds this thing of, Oh, I’m getting screwed over by the system again, because the alternatives are not that great. But then when you go to that communal sense, you’re like, Oh, okay, this, is more supportive.

[00:16:06] Granted as you were talking about the mutual aid, I think the difference between it is, that Susu or Partner is a group of people collecting, right? So nobody outside of that group is going to get that money. I think mutual aid is, almost like a bucket. So like, even if you were not a part of it, you can still access it.

[00:16:23] That’s, that’s kind of what it sounded like.

[00:16:26] Linzy: Now I don’t know. Somebody is listening right now who’s like, Ah, that’s not what mutual aid is! Yeah, now I’m not sure. I sense that it is within a community that folks would access and then they would be contributing back later. But yeah, I’ll have to take a look and learn more about that.

[00:16:40] That model. But yeah, like I’m hearing a couple of things. A couple of things are coming to mind as you’re talking. Like, first of all, what you’re saying with your grandmother of like you got to hold onto the pennies and I see this a lot with therapists, too, just with the type of people we are, there can be this like real like clutching and like, tightness, in us as humans for lots of different reasons.

[00:16:57] But as you say, it’s like, .. If you can’t easily access that resource. I always think about money. There are two levers, right? We can either spend less or make more. Now there are all sorts of complex pieces that go into that and some math and some strategy ultimately at the end of the day, those are the two options we have we either make more or spend less So if you can’t make more… If you don’t live in a society that values you and gives you an easy opportunity to get paid for your gifts, then what can you do?

[00:17:21] Like you can spend less, right? That’s where you have control, so of course you’re going to exert control where you have it, which makes so much sense. Something that I see in racialized folks in Money Skills for Therapists is also there can also be this sense of just low self-worth, right? Like … You haven’t seen yourself represented growing up like you didn’t grow up thinking that you could be the doctor or the president, and then you become this incredibly talented therapist and suddenly you have to face the reality that maybe you need to charge 150 or 200 an hour But you haven’t been told that you are a valuable, smart, wonderful person by the larger society your whole life.

[00:17:56] Hopefully, your parents and the folks who love you have been telling you that. But, you are in an impressive environment, which means that like, it’s a bigger step to get to that point of like, I am talented. I am giving worth. Like, I can charge this fee because I’m changing people’s lives.

[00:18:10] It’s, it’s a much bigger step, when you are racialized is what I have observed. Does that ring true to you or would you, yeah, trouble that

[00:18:17] Chioma: So true and I don’t think it’s just in like the world of therapists. I think it’s across the board. I have been in so many different rooms with business people, and entrepreneurs, who are Black where They’re more willing to give their time for free or for a discounted value versus saying, I am worth this amount and I’m going to charge accordingly, you know? And the price that we put on our service and our labor, again, from that system of you always have gotten less. Black bodies in essence have always been in this grind culture of, you need to produce, you need to keep going.

[00:18:53] And we’re not going to compensate you. So, there’s a level of this is just the norm. And breaking out of it to say you are worthy, like knowing that your labor, your gifts, and your talent are deserving to be compensated. So you’re breaking some of that scarcity mindset.

[00:19:11] The relationship with money that I like to call it because what it comes down to is how are you viewing that money, right? Like, are you viewing it as just something that you need to survive or as a tool to say, you know what, it’s going to give me the life that I need? It’s going to make my kids, and my generation happier, and more comfortable.

[00:19:32] And it is again, that complete shift, right? When I’ve seen it, when I’ve been working with racialized individuals, even for myself, it’s almost a 360 mindset shift, right? It’s breaking up from the previous narratives, the previous stories with money. It’s breaking up from what our parents might’ve seen as money as our grandparents might’ve seen the money as it is.

[00:19:55] Also going against a capitalist system, right? An oppressive system that has always at the crux of it, said, We don’t value your worth. You’re always going to be in a place where you’re underemployed. You’re not getting the resources that you need and say, nope, I’m going to change that.

[00:20:15] And honestly, being in a space when you’re changing and disturbing you when you’re a disruptor, that in itself is hard. Right. It’s hard and it comes with a toll. Right. So 

[00:20:30] It’s so much bigger than just that that money story plays such a huge role in it, but when you’re looking at the layers that come to that money story and taking a part of that layer like an onion to get to that sweet part, right?

[00:20:45] Linzy: I know. Yes, and something that I felt for a few years on the podcast, I talked about this a lot because this was part of my journey, but I’m thinking about it too, as you’re talking is like the grief that comes with that, as you do start to say like, no, I value myself. I’m going to step into this different place.

[00:21:00] Like if the folks around you, if your family and friends like are still kind of living this other story, and you’re choosing a different story, as you say, there’s, I’ve personally experienced part of the complexity is you’re choosing to live differently than the folks that you love. Yeah.

[00:21:11] Right? And then there’s, yeah, you’re disrupting. It makes me think about, the image for, like, kind of the family therapy model, the family constellation system, where everybody’s on a mobile, and if you start to move, everybody shakes, like there’s this disruption that happens to everybody. Yeah, you’re, you’re rocking the boat, and sometimes you’re also, challenging or imperiling relationships that are important to you, by choosing to live a different story than the one that has been inherited by your family and your community.

[00:21:38] I do agree with the grief. But I think some of that money story is inherited, not by choice, but necessarily just by design, by designing the system. So what, what I find, like within my community, within a lot of racialized communities, when you’re able to break that mold, people are cheering behind you.

[00:21:56] Chioma: People are rooting for your success. Right now I’m gonna talk a lot about the Black community because I think the term Black Excellence. We want you to break that narrative. You have people who laid the groundwork for you to be successful, and for you to have open opportunities.

[00:22:19] So there’s more of a part of there’s a generation before us that wanted this, but they couldn’t get access to it. So now the shift is how can we access it and feel worthy to be in that, right? Like I always say it all the time. I’m my ancestors’ wildest dreams. I am their wildest dreams.

[00:22:38] Because they wanted it. Did they have access to it? Did they have the resources for it? Were they able to connect to it? No, right? Because of again, that systematic barrier, that limitation that had been placed on their income, their value, right? So, while you have, a community be like, yes, break these chains, like, you know, feel empowered, like do this, it still is a lonely journey, like it still is a very isolating to be like, okay, now I’m the first one, I have an expectation, and I have, almost the burden of carrying the weight of my ancestors, or the people that laid the foundation, and that’s heavy.

[00:23:14] Linzy: Yes, absolutely.

[00:23:17] Chioma: I think it’s less about that grief, but the more about, It’s almost the opposite. It’s almost like a celebration, right? It’s a celebration that you’re there, but in that, that impact, because again, it is a lonely journey. It’s an isolated journey. You might be the only one setting the ground, setting the stage. Now it’s like, oh, okay, can I do this? Am I doing this? What other roadblocks or hurdles are going to come? And there’s that fight, right? I wish I could say, it doesn’t come without a fight, it doesn’t come.

[00:23:52] I wish I could say, like, maybe you’re taking down another layer of a brick or a roadblock or a stumbling block that’s there.

[00:24:00] You’re like, ouch! I stepped on that. I didn’t even know that existed or was there because… 

[00:24:04] nobody was in front of you. Nobody was setting that pace. I think about the image of, you know, equity, where they’re, they’re having that race, and you can see that, when, when you have it, you have it lined up with all the different races, and you can see that for Black individuals, our start is just starting.

[00:24:26] There’s no clue what’s ahead. Like no clue what’s in front, and that is scary. 

 [00:24:33] So, you’re going along this journey, and you’re rewriting your money story, right? You’re rewriting, you know, the relationship with it. You’re accessing more resources. You’re asking for more support and you’re still like,

[00:24:44] I don’t know what’s happening. There’s uncertainty.

[00:24:47] Linzy: Yeah, I’m really happy that’s your experience because I’m thinking like, right, so how much of my own experience of that is about being a white woman, a straight woman, and being policed by other women who are like, no, no, no, there’s certain rules here.

[00:25:03], this is getting my wheels turning now about my culture that I’m talking about, right, of like, yeah. The grief that has been dominant for me. But what I’m hearing from you is, is something that I, have experienced and talked with folks about a lot is like, you do end up having to find like new people, right?

[00:25:18] Like your people. And the beautiful thing about, The online space is sometimes through being online, you might find your person who’s in like Massachusetts who you have so much in common in this incredible story to be able to be like, Hey, I just tripped over this brick. You should know that it’s there.

[00:25:34] So at least you’re walking hand in hand, in that journey. Because yeah, like I’m hearing, yeah, being out ahead is lonely. Yeah. As you say, there isn’t that guide. There isn’t that parent to be like, Oh, this is what’s coming next in this process, because you’re out ahead of them.

[00:25:47] And when you were talking about, Black Excellence and being your, your ancestor’s wildest dreams, it also made me think of standing on the shoulder of giants, right? Like just all the foundational work, that was done by these previous generations, to get as far as things have gotten, which is not far enough.

[00:26:06] But yeah, there’s a sense of connection that I’m hearing here when you’re talking about that that sounds very, very strong and very powerful.

[00:26:13] Chioma: Absolutely. And I like that we’re an online community. And I think a part of that, tapping into culture, ethnicity is going back to collective and community, right? I always say there’s so much power in the community. There’s so much power in the collective. So I’m less of an individualistic person and more of how do I work or how do I find my people?

[00:26:38] Because I’m not going to lie as a business owner, as an entrepreneur. I can’t tell how many times where I’ve been like, I need a phone call from somebody, from a friend who gets it, who understands the day in struggles, the fluctuations with, am I going to meet my money mark this month? What, else do I need to be doing?

[00:26:58] Or am I missing? And it’s been that community that has reminded me of my worth. I am here for a reason. There is value in what I’m doing. I’m going to charge what I deserve. I had a conversation with, a gentleman a few weeks ago, and he was telling me how he got his first organization and I said, okay, what did you charge for that?

[00:27:20] And he’s like, I charged very, very low. And I was like, yeah, when he told me the number, I’m not going to share it. But when he told me the number. It was maybe one-fourth of what people usually charge when working with organizations. And I was like You, you undersold yourself.

[00:27:36] I was like, who are you talking to? He’s like, I didn’t have anyone to talk to about this. And I was like, I wish I had known you before. Cause I would have been like, no, like, but again, how we’re charging, we’ll have as Black individuals, we’ll be in space where businesses, people will be coming to us and we’ll be underselling our value, underselling our worth.

[00:27:57] Right. And it’s just in those simple ways that we do that feel so innocently. We’re like, Oh my goodness, someone’s going to pay this amount and you’re worth that. And more.

[00:28:08] Linzy: So what are some tips and tricks for racialized folks to rewrite their money stories and their relationship with money?

[00:28:18] Chioma: First, start talking about it. There’s a lot of us not talking about money or not feeling comfortable enough to talk about money because of, again, a lot of the shame, a lot of the stigma that came with it. So having that normalization of the conversation around money is going to be helpful. Second, finding community.

[00:28:37] I can’t tell you how blessed it has been for me to find community, to find people that I can connect with and understand, they’ve walked the road ahead of me, right? And then also knowing that you are worthy and you are valued. I think that the last bit is so important recognizing that I’m worth this.

[00:29:02] I’m here for a reason. This, this gift is something that I can appreciate and other people will see that worth.

[00:29:09] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Chioma, if folks wanted to learn more about you, actually that’s a question. Do you have offerings for other therapists and practitioners right now? Are you doing one on one? What do you have going on?

[00:29:22] Chioma: So I don’t have offerings for other therapists and practitioners. I mainly just work with individual clients and organizations at this time. Who knows what the future will have in store?

[00:29:34] Linzy: Seriously. Yes.

[00:29:35] Chioma: I don’t know what the future will have… If somebody wants to find me, they can find me on my Instagram at, inner compass underscore well-being.

[00:29:44] So that’s where somebody can follow me and then I’m on LinkedIn, chomaephagedia.

[00:29:48] Linzy: Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[00:29:51] Chioma: No worries. Thank you. It’s been an honor to hold space with you. So thank you.

[00:29:55] Linzy: Yeah. Thank you. 

[00:30:11] I so appreciated Chioma coming on the podcast today and starting to unpack this topic, sharing about it. I was saying to her afterward she really should have offerings for therapists. So if you feel similarly, if you’re like, Oh, this person has some great things to say, for those of us in the therapy space, definitely follow her on Instagram, keep an eye on her.

[00:30:31] She was mentioning to me, that she’s only two months into private practice, so she’s busy with that. But I could see great things coming from her in the future. Afterward, we also chatted a little bit about all these other things we could have talked about, like the deprofessionalization of people when they immigrate to Canada, people who are doctors and just like lose their status automatically when they come here, end up driving Ubers, and like what that’s going to do to your, your money stories and the financial impact of that.

[00:30:53] There are so many pieces to this. I appreciate Chioma coming on the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’m going to ask you to leave a review. I’ve been asking you to tell family and friends, but let’s mix it up a little bit.

[00:31:07] If you can head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review, maybe share about which episodes you particularly enjoyed, and what you like about the podcast. That is a great way for other therapists to find us and to be part of these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.