Meet David Frank

[00:00:00] David: By being intentional and putting these blocks of deep work in place, it’s proactive. It’s not reactive. And so I’m identifying every week: What are the most impactful things to really move my business forward, and to really improve the lives of my clients? I’m doing those things, and I’ve just noticed less mental noise about, “Oh, but you need to be thinking about this, and you need to be doing that!” It’s just like, “Okay, I have a system, and these things are moving.”

[00:00:25] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s podcast episode is with David Frank. David is a returning guest. He is a financial planner for therapists specifically. And today David and I talk about deep work, what deep work is. It might be something you’ve heard about. We dig into what it is, our own definitions of it.

[00:01:10] We talk about the value of making time to give yourself focus and be able to really dig in to do deep work. We talk about how deep work applies to private practice, what it means financially for private practice, and about our own experiences in our businesses and in our lives with using deep work practices to create space to focus on what really matters to us.

[00:01:31] I talk about my recent love affair with digital minimalism. Uncoupling with my phone. This is a really fun conversation for me to have to just nerd out about a topic that I’ve been really excited about lately, which is deep work and digital minimalism, and just really being intentional with how we use our times in our business and in our lives.

[00:01:50] Here’s my conversation with David Frank.

[00:02:08] Linzy: Hi, David, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:09] David: Thanks. It’s good to be back.

[00:02:11] Linzy: Yeah, it’s good to have you back, and I’m very excited for what we’re planning to talk about today, but before we get into our planned topic, tell folks again, who are listening a little bit about yourself, cause it’s your second time on the podcast. But yeah, remind us about who you are and what you do.

[00:02:24] David: Yeah, great. Happy to do it. So my name is David Frank, and I’m the founder and owner of Turning Point Financial, and we are a financial planning firm that focuses exclusively on serving the needs of therapists who own private practices. So I help folks navigate every essential element of their financial life from budgeting to investing to risk management, insurance, estate planning, and kind of everything in between.

[00:02:49] Linzy: Great. And our topic for today that we, you know, are planning to talk about is something that I knew that you were interested in because you have this excellent autoresponder on your email.

[00:03:00] Can you tell folks about the autoresponder on your email?

[00:03:04] David: Yeah, so the autoresponder on my email… So I have my out of office set on all the time, even when I’m in the office. And so what happens is, if you send me an email, you’ll get I think a brief… It’s a brief little email that’s just like, “Hey, thanks so much for reaching out. I aim to return client emails within 72 hours.

[00:03:24] I aim to return everyone else’s email within a week. And that probably sounds crazy to you, but let me explain to you why I’m doing that. And the reason I do that is because email is this huge distraction. And, by the way, my clients know if anything is really urgent or truly important, they can call me or text me, but if something’s urgent,

[00:03:43] don’t send me an email because I only check email a couple times a day. And the reason I do that is because I want to focus on engaging in deep work, which is super important for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is that it enables me to do really impactful work for my clients. And I don’t want to get distracted.

[00:04:01] I want to be super focused on what it is that I’m doing, what it is that I’m learning, and what it is that I’m developing to help the therapists of the world out there.”

[00:04:08] Linzy: And when I saw that autoresponder, when we, I think when we first started corresponding, you know, about six months ago, I was like, I like this guy.

[00:04:15] Because it’s so intentional. It’s so clear. It’s such a clear boundary that you’re setting of this is my boundary. This is why it’s here. And I remember you even have links in there, too.

[00:04:26] I think “if you want to read more about deep work” and,

[00:04:28] you know, you have a blog on your website that talks about it more in detail, but it’s not like you send a whole lecture out on your autoresponder. But it’s just

[00:04:35] so clear about owning the parts of your work that you do that are really valuable, and not kind of giving into this urgency of email that runs most of us most of the time.

[00:04:47] David: Yeah, absolutely. And just to be clear, this is not something that I, you know, just showed up knowing to do. This is something that I did in the beginning of 2023, so a little over a year ago as we record this, but getting my life… like reclaiming my life and moving out of my email inbox is something that yeah It’s a fairly recent development for me.

[00:05:10] Linzy: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Me, too. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about deep work first for folks who are listening, who are not familiar, who are like, what does that mean?

[00:05:20] David: Yeah.

[00:05:21] Linzy: Share your definition of deep work with me.

[00:05:24] David: Yeah, so most of my thinking is influenced by this guy by the name of Cal Newport, who is an author, and I think he’s like a computer scientist somewhere in the eastern US. I can’t remember where he works, maybe Penn or something. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. He wrote a book called Deep Work a number of years ago, and I heard about it through a business coach, I think, at some point.

[00:05:43] And the whole idea is that, I mean there’s a lot going on in that book, but the general idea is that deep work is really important, especially the way our economy is evolving and given all the changes that are happening with technology, and AI, and everything else, and yet it’s really rare. Because we’re so distracted by email and a million other things that are clamoring for our attention at all hours of the day.

[00:06:05] So the idea of deep work, for me anyway, is just to have blocks of time where I very intentionally map out over the course of my day slash week, what do I need to focus on? What are the really the most important activities, sort of proactively, like not reacting to stuff that’s coming into me, but being really intentional about what is most important for me in terms of accomplishing the big picture goals that I want to accomplish, and then protecting that time where I sit down and I just

[00:06:35] tune out all distractions, put the phone away, put it somewhere else where I don’t even see it light up if something comes in, and I just focus on the task at hand for some period of time. And that can vary. It can be a 25 minute sort of sprint or it could be sometimes a multi hour period.

[00:06:51] Linzy: And, I’m doing Cal Newport’s course right now, Life of Focus, which we chatted about a little bit beforehand, where the first month is about deep work. And so they, you know, they’re just kind of sharing the concepts that are from the book, but giving it to you in this nice implementable way, right,

[00:07:06] where you can take action on it. The second month is on Digital Minimalism, which I could talk about for a year. I’m so excited about it. And then the third part of the course is about doing something meaningful, like having a project that has a lot of meaning, which I think for therapists listening, you already have that. It’s your clinical work. You’re doing that work every day. Right? So I don’t think therapists lack for meaning, but this deep work piece, something that they mentioned in that course as well, which he teaches… It’s video recordings. I don’t actually get to have contact with Cal Newport. I think I wouldn’t know what to say.

[00:07:35] Cause I’m a little starstruck by him at this point. I’m a bit of a fan girl, but… it’s also work that takes focus and skill where you’re going to need to be in it for a while. Right? So it’s not necessarily like these little tasks that like you could train, you know, a 19 year old to do in half an hour, but it’s these tasks that actually like really call on your skills and expertise that you’ve honed over a long period of time and require you to get in the zone, which doesn’t mean it’s always easy to

[00:07:59] get there. It doesn’t mean you start in the zone, but things that you have to sink into, and you’re like, Oh, this was kind of hard, but now I’m in it. Now I could keep going. Now I’m getting somewhere with this book that I’m writing, this like new lesson that I’m creating, this like opt-in, you know, for folks in the online space, this blog article, like those are all

[00:08:17] things that would be examples of deep work because they require our skills and gifts, and they really benefit from a good chunk of time. Not like working on something five minutes at a time.

[00:08:26] David: Right. Yeah. And he also makes this distinction between deep work and shallow work. And so I think that can be helpful to think about, too. Shallow work is kind of exactly what it sounds like. It’s processing just a bunch of different emails that have shown up in your inbox.

[00:08:40] Shallow work is probably dealing with invoicing of clients or dealing with insurance billing, whatever it is… That type of stuff where it’s not really taxing your mental faculties. It requires some degree of concentration perhaps, but it’s not really very deeply thoughtful work.

[00:08:57] Linzy: Yeah. For private practice owners, it’s going to be a lot of your admin work. That is shallow work, right?

[00:09:02] Checking your inbox, seeing what’s there; checking your phone messages, doing your notes. Although I would actually probably argue that notes could be integrated into your deep work.

[00:09:10] And we’ll talk about this in a minute… 

[00:09:12] David: I was just thinking about that.

[00:09:13] Linzy: Yeah,I do think in some ways though, I will say, I think private practice owners, we tend to treat notes as kind of like that later on the side, shallow administrative work. But really once you’re in flow, they’re probably easier.

[00:09:26] But yeah… And what they talk about is it’s not that these shallow tasks are not important. Because I think the word shallow has negative connotations. Like you don’t want to be a shallow

[00:09:33] person. That’s not great. You want to be a deep person, but they’re the tasks that don’t require really accessing all these different parts of your brain at once, and they’re also things that once you move into focusing on them, it’s hard to get back into those deeper tasks, right?

[00:09:47] Like they take your attention away. So if you try to intersperse them every 10 minutes in some deeper task, you’re actually… you know, they talk about residual attention. You’re kind of leaving some of your attention with that task when you stop to check your phone, and you send a few texts, and five minutes later, you go back to work. It takes your brain energy to try to get back on track with whatever you were just creating. You get out of the flow. Yeah.

[00:10:09] David: The concept you mentioned about residual attention, I think, is really interesting. I was reviewing some of my highlights from the book before we jumped on this call, and what I thought was interesting about residual attention specifically is that… And so the concept here, and there’s been studies done on this, psychological studies, where the idea is that when you switch from one task to another you might believe, or you attempt to fully direct your attention toward the new task, but despite our best intentions, there’s some residual attention that’s still going on in our heads that’s focused on the old tasks. So there’s like a real cost of switching too frequently. And what I thought was particularly fascinating is that that residual attention…that impact like it degrades your ability to perform well on the new task. But interestingly, that residual effect is more strongly pronounced when the previous task you were engaged with was shallow work rather than deep work. I thought that was really intriguing.

[00:11:06] I think intuitively I might have assumed the opposite would be the case. But it’s just really interesting… And I think that just highlights, at least for me, anyway, just the importance of trying to be really intentional, and disciplined, to the extent possible, to sort of batch shallow work and put it almost at the margins of my day, if possible, so that the negative effects of that shallow work aren’t creeping into sort of the middle of my day, or at least the portions of my day where I find I can be the most productive and focused.

[00:11:38] Linzy: Right, like kind of your best energy and time should go towards that deeper work. Yes.

[00:11:43] Yeah. And I do really like that idea of residual attention because that to me gives me like an image where it’s like my attention was here. There’s this like purple, say my attention is purple. It’s like I’ve got this nice concentration of purple.

[00:11:52] I go over here to do something quickly, which seems like a little easy side quest, but I leave some of my attention behind. So when I come back, there’s a little bit less of that intensity. There’s a little bit less focus left. And the more that I do that, I’m just like, kind of like spreading that attention thin until when I come back, I don’t have a lot left.

[00:12:10] And I think cognitively, I know what that feels like when I get to that point where I’m like,

[00:12:14] Whoa, I’m like, my brain is so full. I can’t really sink into this thing anymore because my brain is actually thinking about like 12 things right now.

[00:12:22] David: Yeah, exactly. I think this is a fascinating topic, but like it’s difficult. It’s not like you can just be like, “Hey, I’m going to be a deep worker now.” And I’m like, great. I’m totally sold. I’m just going to go do it. You know, I’m even thinking back on today. You know, I’ve been thinking a lot more about deep work lately because I’ve been thinking about getting ready to have this conversation with you.

[00:12:42] And so it’s been very top of mind. And yet, there’s been times today where I have gotten distracted by checking the news, or checking my email, or what have you. It’s one of the many areas of life, I think, where you focus on progress rather than trying to get anything perfect. Progress rather than perfection.

[00:12:59] Linzy: Always. Always. Always. So for folks who are listening, you know, you and I, David, do work that’s a little bit different than what they do, right? Just because we’re not necessarily doing the same amount of like service outward facing every day in the same way that clinicians are. So thinking about deep work in private practice, as someone who works with therapists, how can you see deep work applying to therapists and health practitioners in private practice?

[00:13:24] David: Yeah, I’m biased because, well, like you, I’m thinking a lot about the financial world and the financial side, both of being a practice owner, and how that translates into your personal financial stuff. And so the first thing that comes to mind for me… One thing that I talked with

[00:13:39] practice owners about a lot is, especially when you might be newer to private practice, remembering that there are so many tasks that are non clinical in nature that are really your responsibility from marketing to managing the finances of your practice, and there’s just going to be a lot of learning that you have to do.

[00:13:57] And so I think it’s really important just to say, okay, when I think about what my ideal caseload looks like, when I think about what my ideal week kind of looks like, and when I think about, you know, when I want to be scheduling client or patient appointments, and when I want to be doing the other tasks of the business, just getting really clear, just like keeping in mind, and just know,

[00:14:17] oh, yeah, you really have to set aside some significant chunks of time to work on the business and to be learning how to work on the business. So I think yeah, it’s just really important to know that from the outset, maybe even when you’re just thinking about the financial plan for your business in terms of how many folks you can see in any given week. Just keeping in mind there’s so much that needs to be done in addition to just the actual clinical work.

[00:14:43] So just being actually very proactive and intentional about protecting your time to focus on that type of stuff.

[00:14:50] Linzy: Yeah, because I think that piece about all those other parts of the business, all the non client facing parts of the business, sometimes those can feel almost like a little bit of a burden for folks in private practice. It’s like,

[00:15:01] Oh God, and now I have to learn about marketing, too. And now I have to learn about bookkeeping, and find an accountant.

[00:15:07] What I do love about bringing some of the deep work concepts to it is it’s okay, you have learning to do. And learning takes focus, right? And learning, like

[00:15:15] we really benefit when we can really dig into something and come out the other side and be like, now I know this thing that I didn’t know 45 minutes ago.

[00:15:21] Cause I gave myself time just to learn and solve it. And I could see that setting yourself up at the beginning of practice to say, this is my marketing time, and half that time I’m going to be learning some marketing strategies, and then some of that time I’ll start actually implementing and building my own website, or like really giving those tasks the credit that they’re due, and like you are building new neural pathways. You are learning

[00:15:43] whole new concepts and theories like to market your practice, or to do the finances, like you’re learning things you’ve truly just never learned before. And learning is a deep work task. It takes a lot of our

[00:15:55] cognition. And if you stop and check your phone 15 times, or answer a random email that just came in immediately because it just came in, again, you’re leaving some of your attention behind. When you go back to learn that thing again, your brain is having to be like, Wait, what were we reading?

[00:16:08] What are we talking about? Oh Yeah.

[00:16:10] But that email that I just sent, are they going to reply again? You know, I think that there’s such opportunity there to kind of take that part, the learning part of building those skills, seriously.

[00:16:19] David: Yeah. I understand the feeling… Like anyone who runs a business, and I put myself in the same bucket, there’s just certain things that I’m not super excited about. I just don’t love it all. But learning how to do those things, it’s really important. It is a growth activity.

[00:16:35] Just like another way to think about it is that, you know, it, it really is an opportunity to become more… It’s like personal development, right? It’s like getting better at things, and learning, and just I’ve had to do this myself, just trying to frame things… Like sometimes when I have to learn something new,

[00:16:49] and we always have to be learning something new… That’s just the world we live in. Things are constantly changing, especially as business owners. There are new tools, there are new trends, you know, like SEO changes, you know, the way to engage on social media can sometimes change.

[00:17:03] There’s just, I think, protecting time and reframing what it means to be working, like learning is such an important part of actually working.

[00:17:14] But it doesn’t feel productive a lot of times, you know, like just, you know, and that can be frustrating.

[00:17:19] Linzy: Yeah, and I have noticed myself,  I took this attitude towards learning when I was building out Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which is a course that I built out last year from June till December. And Fridays was my deep work day to build that course.

[00:17:34] So Fridays, depending on where I was kind of in the cycle of do I have to do a video drop? Do I have videos due next week or do I have a little bit of time? Sometimes I would be making videos. And filming the lesson, making the tool, you know, uploading the lesson, editing it, just in the flow.

[00:17:48] But sometimes I would be like, I’m just going to sit and read this book today, and that’ll be part of it. And it felt really, I don’t know, respectful of my students, for me to be really just like I’m just going to… Friday is for this and I’m going to give my all to this and there’s no distractions because my team doesn’t work on Fridays. So I’m the only one working. Nobody’s going to send me messages. Nobody needs literally anything. I don’t coach on

[00:18:09] Fridays. But also it just felt almost like going back to being a student where it’s like learning is a valuable activity.

[00:18:15] David: Absolutely.

[00:18:16] Linzy: Learning has value. It’s not something that I should have to do in the evening on top of my full time work week.

[00:18:22] David: Right. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that gets back to just kind of like being intentional and creating sort of a sustainable schedule for yourself, and not just thinking I’m going to see eight clients every day, Monday through Friday, and then I’m going to do everything else sort of nights and weekends.

[00:18:40] There can be seasons where that has to be what happens, right? Like things get out of balance occasionally, but your business, your practice, can’t be built like that long term. I have conversations with clients like this all the time. You know, the work you’re doing is super important.

[00:18:54] You’re helping people. Sometimes, you might be helping people in crisis that are actually like relatively high need, and there can be a lot of, even kind of guilt about not being responsive to their needs, but I think just finding boundaries and protecting your own personal time as well as your own deep work time…

[00:19:12] I mean, it’s really just so essential to sort of prevent burnout as opposed to sort of managing burnout once it shows up. Not that it’s ever… You know, you can’t do this stuff perfectly, right? Like burnout, it could be a thing that just happens, but just sort of learning and getting better over time, I think is really important.

[00:19:29] Linzy: Yeah, I mean, something that I’m quite sure is in Life of Focus, the course, the Cal Newport and Scott H. Young course, that he talks about is the distinction between work that is like cognitively challenging, but it’s like your zone, you know, and therapists, I think about this, like when I was practicing trauma therapy, if I’m in the middle of an EMDR session and I’m doing parts work with somebody and there’s 12 parts that I’m aware of at any time that I’m kind of listening to and

[00:19:53] aware of, right? That’s very much a great example of deep work. And I will be very clear, therapy is deep work, right?

[00:20:00] David: Oh, sure.

[00:20:01] Linzy: Whether you’re doing manual therapy, like massage or physio, you are very much engaged. In a deep way, accessing all of these skills and all of this knowledge that you have, it all has to be kind of pulled up and present so that you can assess and intervene and read the moment and know when to say something and when not to, or when an intervention makes sense and when it doesn’t, right?

[00:20:20] That is very much deep work, but

[00:20:22] there’s a distinction between that deep work and hard work, and I think what we do in private practice and in business is if you set yourself up for hard work, so it’s work that you’re doing late into the night, it’s work that you’re doing on a Saturday morning so that you’re not having time with your kids, right?

[00:20:38] It’s like those extra sessions that you’re doing at the end of the day when you’re already beyond your capacity. That is what causes burnout. I don’t actually

[00:20:46] think that it’s often like the actual work that folks are doing that causes the burnout. If it’s your zone of genius and you love it, chances are it’s

[00:20:54] feeding you, but if you’re setting it up, so you’re seeing too many clients, right,

[00:20:59] or you’re working hours that don’t work for you, that is what causes burnout. And that’s hard work. That’s making hard work conditions. It’s not actually the work itself that is causing the burnout.

[00:21:10] David: Yeah. I think that’s a really good point. I love that.

[00:21:13] Linzy: So another piece that occurred to me as we were talking earlier, as I mentioned about notes, right? Like how notes fit in…

[00:21:17] David: right. Yeah.

[00:21:20] Linzy: As we were talking about it, this has not occurred to me before, but notes are a real pain point for therapists. They hate notes. I hated notes when I was a therapist. I’ve had my own notes trauma where, you know, I have a hundred notes built up, and I’m like, “I’m never going to be done typing up these notes!” Right? And I have my own handwritten

[00:21:35] notes that are kind of like this like indecipherable, you know, scrawl and

[00:21:39] random words like dog that like only I know what that means. You know, but then you actually have to type them up and put them into a format that somebody else could understand. And something that I’m thinking about is I think that therapists tend to make notes, treat them like shallow work. We treat them like this admin work that is just like taking care of our duty, and it’s an afterthought. But if we did actually batch our notes at the end of a session where we’re still in the flow and that client

[00:22:04] is still top of mind, and all of those parts of you that were like on board to deliver treatment are still up, I think that is when notes can become deep work instead of

[00:22:16] hard work because we’re actually using our kind of full capacity that we’ve put online for that. Just type up what you did, finish it off. And then you’ve deferred yourself pain for later. This is what’s occurring to me because

[00:22:27] you do have flow when you’re in deep work. What do you think about that idea?

[00:22:31] David: Yeah, no, I really like that, which… So a couple thoughts. So many things kind of jumped to mind. But as you’re describing that, I’m almost like, wow, you know,does it make sense to almost reframe notes as not just some sort of administrative burden that you have to do, but like an opportunity for you like to really view it as this is part of

[00:22:50] the service I’m doing to the client… like a processing of it, and like creating something of value I think that’s, yeah, that’s just really interesting to think about. And oh, by the way, just as an aside, therapists aren’t like the only ones that don’t like notes. Like financial planners also have to compile notes after meetings, right?

[00:23:07] That’s you just… You need to memorialize the stuff…

[00:23:09] Linzy: Yes. Yes.

[00:23:10] David: To better serve the clients, and like I’ve actually spent a lot of time trying to figure out a way to make note taking both efficient and impactful, and i’m definitely not done… I think it’s a really actually rich area for development, but like the other thing that I think about is like, again, the concept of boundaries and balance because if you’re doing a 50 minute session, and you’ve got back to back sessions at the top of every hour… and I know this is can be so challenging because sometimes I struggle with it, too, but boundaries around when the session has to end, right? Because like you protect that 10 minutes of time to give you, you know, give you time to do the notes and maybe have a bio break and all

[00:23:50] these things, or maybe, you know, it just doesn’t really work for you to have sessions starting at the top of every hour, hour after hour, again. And so obviously there’s some implications to how you run your practice, or run your business that way, and then there’s financial implications to these decisions as well, but yeah, it’s really interesting and I think… Yeah, I always hate to see that happen to people like when they’ve got weeks worth of notes building up because I know a similar stressor, and it’s just like this overhang on your life, and it’s not fun at all.

[00:24:22] Linzy: Note pain is a special kind of pain, and I can tell it’s a pain because I’ve seen a few folks in the therapist, coach space offer different supports for note writing, so I’m like, yeah, people are trying to, offer supports here because it is something that happens so much, but yeah, that boundary piece is so important.

[00:24:36] And you know, when I think about the work that therapists and health practitioners do, something that I think about is if they really valued the work that they were doing, kind of in the way that it sounds like you’ve developed valuing your own expertise and skills, like where you have that autoresponder, where you’re like, these are some really important things that I do to let me do my work

[00:24:53] well; therefore, I’m not going to spend all my time on email. If a therapist can really realize wow, it takes a lot of cognitive and emotional energy to be able to do what I do. Like it’s really like a flow state that I get into, and I need to

[00:25:06] be able to take care of myself and ground between sessions, and if I can do my note at the end of the session, it flows. Cause I know that for myself, it was always true. there’s always that little interruption where you’re like ending the session with somebody. And for me, I would always like… when I was doing in person sessions, have the person walk over to my desk, you know, do the payment transaction, say okay, next Tuesday at 2 is still good.

[00:25:25] Great. See you then. But if I can just stay at my desk and finish that note, then I’ve closed it off, but I always gave myself 15 minute breaks between sessions. So it’s like, if I have a session from 10 till, you know, 11, it’s actually only from 10 till 10:50. That last 10 minutes is that little admin exchange, some time for notes.

[00:25:47] And there’s a 15 minute buffer before my next session. So my next session is at 11:15. It wouldn’t actually be at 11:15 because lunch is sacred, but I’m just using this as an example.

[00:25:54] David: Right. Yeah.

[00:25:56] Linzy: But I think part of it is that I was able to recognize like, Shit, this is like really crazy work that I do, and it takes so much bandwidth.

[00:26:04] And if you think about your work in a quality over quantity way, and if you can set up your fee to support you in actually doing the quantity that you can sustain so you can give the quality that you want, then both you and your client benefit immensely from you really valuing your service.

[00:26:20] David: Well said. Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:22] Linzy: Thank you. Yes. So let’s talk a little bit about our own practices of deep work, because I know this is something that you’ve integrated into your work. You were mentioning that today, sometimes it doesn’t always look exactly how you want to.

[00:26:33] But tell me about what you’ve really found works for you in terms of having a deep work practice.

[00:26:38] David: Yeah, so for me,I’m a morning person. So, you know, early to bed, early to rise is just sort of the way that I’m hardwired and just like fully accepting that has made life a lot easier. And what I used to do is I’d sort of wake up, roll over, grab the phone. Look at like the New York Times, check the email…

[00:26:55] Linzy: Same, same, same.

[00:26:56] David: Yeah. And it’s just Oh, but that’s I’m just waking up, like I’m trying to ease myself into the day, but I just felt like that was reactive, right? I wasn’t controlling what was coming into me. So, and I just felt like that could put me in a bad mood or a good mood, but it just… it was haphazard.

[00:27:11] Like it was just kind of out of control. And so eventually what I started doing is every day when I wake up and I do a lot on my phone, which, you know, maybe isn’t the best, but it works for me for right now. I don’t do this every morning, but most mornings I’ll wake up and the first thing that I read is I just have a list of daily reminders.

[00:27:28] And they’re just like little inspirational quotes that I’ve picked up. It’s not necessarily focus on what tasks I need to accomplish but it’s more kind of mindset and just like reminding myself of the importance of deep work and just like the importance of resilience and just stuff like that, so just like that’s the first thing I want entering sort of my psyche for the day of kind of putting me in a good mind space.

[00:27:47] And then, you know, I have some coffee, like I get up, but like the first thing I do is just like, I don’t check email at all. Like I get up and then the night before I’ve identified, you know, what is the most… I pick one of the most impactful pieces of deep work that I need to do, and then I usually have three a day or something like that’s a general…

[00:28:07] And then I pick the one that I least want to do, or that I feel the most resistance around, and I try to do that one first.

[00:28:13] I don’t always do this, but when I do, I find that it makes my whole day go so much better, because I’ve done the difficult thing. And what I usually…

[00:28:22] Linzy: That’s the eat a frog strategy, right?

[00:28:24] David: Yes, exactly right. Eat the frog. Yeah, I don’t know where that comes from. It was just like, I think the idea was like, if you eat a frog first thing in the day, you’ve already done the worst possible thing.

[00:28:32] Linzy: Everything else is easier.

[00:28:34] Yeah, unless you’re French. Christelle, who works for us, is French. She’s from France. So she calls it eating the toad, because they do eat frogs in France.

[00:28:42] David: Fair enough.

[00:28:42] Linzy: got to eat the toad. Do the thing you don’t want to do first. Same is true, I think, for folks who ice plunge.

[00:28:47] I’ve heard of people who, you do that first thing in the day, and you’re like, everything else after this, easy peasy. Already did the hard thing.

[00:28:52] David: Yeah, exactly. But that’s what I try to do. And then after that, so like after I’ve kind of accomplished that win… And by the way, I usually discover that the task that I wanted to avoid, or I found intimidating, or whatever, like it actually wasn’t that big of a deal. Like usually that’s the discovery.

[00:29:10] And that’s empowering as well. It’s just kind of like, oh, well that’s good to know. I can do anything now! But then I have very dedicated times where I check email, you know. So I have my morning sort of deep work session. Then I’ll go exercise, or take the dog for a walk, or do something like that, so like I’m taking care of my physical body as well. And giving myself a break, by the way. And then I come back and then it’s okay to check email, but when I check the email… As I say this, some of this is aspirational.

[00:29:37] I’m so grateful to be having this conversation because I’m reminding myself of what my intentions are and there’s a little bit of… Yeah, there’s a little bit of deviation in my current reality from what the ideal is, but that just happens, right? That’s what it means to be human. So, at any rate, at the beginning of the day and right at the end of the day.

[00:29:54] So that’s shallow work, sort of like at the margins of the day, or at least during normal kind of business hours after I’ve had that morning deep work session. And then the rest of… the middle of the day, it can be client meetings. it can be deep work for clients. and of course it also has to, you know, for me too, has to be deep work around marketing and learning marketing and figuring all that type of stuff out.

[00:30:13] Because that’s also… You know, it’s important, but it can be difficult.

[00:30:16] Linzy: Nice. And I’m curious, what have you found that is different for you since you’ve been implementing these strategies, even if not to perfection, since you have these intentions and you’ve created these blocks? What have you noticed has changed for you?

[00:30:28] David: A number of things, but one of the biggest is that my levels of stress and anxiety have gone down because it’s, I’ve developed a practice of doing that eat the frog work. So it’s just like I’m building that habit, or like the muscle memory almost, of doing hard things, and just like that internal confidence of just yeah, I can do hard things.

[00:30:48] I do it all the time. But also just by being intentional and putting these blocks of deep work in place, you know, it’s proactive. It’s not reactive. And so I’m identifying, every week, what are the most impactful things to really move my business forward, and to really improve the lives of my clients? So I’m doing those things and there’s just like… I’ve just noticed less mental noise about: “Oh, but you need to be thinking about this, and you need to be doing that!” It’s just “Okay, I have a system, and these things are moving.” And I think the other thing that I’ve noticed, and I think this is a pretty universal experience is that Sometimes things take longer, well often things take longer than you think they are going to or maybe they should.

[00:31:27] But also I’m discovering that when I look back on the week or the month or the quarter, it’s like, actually, some of this stuff doesn’t take as much time and effort as I thought it would to get the results that I want. it’s really interesting to be like, oh, that was a big scary thing that I had to figure out.

[00:31:45] It actually wasn’t that bad when I just sort of broke it up into manageable chunks.

[00:31:50] Linzy: Yes. Yeah. And I think that’s true. It’s almost like that thing of the days are long, but life is short…

[00:31:55] The individual tasks can take longer than we plan. But if you’re actually doing those tasks and like doing the top priority things and getting them done,

[00:32:03] David: Yeah.

[00:32:04] Linzy: The impact that they have can come a lot faster than you might anticipate.

[00:32:07] David: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You said it better than I did, but yeah, exactly, the impact. It’s oh, wow, look at these things that are actually happening now! That’s so cool.”

[00:32:15] Linzy: Yes. So I want to share about my practices as well because they’re not as

[00:32:20] intentional of yours because I have a five year old, too. So different life

[00:32:23] scenario, right? So I am also early to bed, early rise because my son thinks that five o’clock is a reasonable time to get up in the morning. And some mornings he sleeps until seven, and that’s a beautiful gift. But this morning he woke up at… maybe today was 5:20. Yesterday at 5:08, he decided to wake me up to tell me that if I was… I’ll never be lost because he’ll always be there for me. I was like, that’s very sweet. Thank you so much.

[00:32:44] David: That is sweet.

[00:32:44] Linzy: Can we please go back to sleep? He did not go back to sleep. He didn’t go back to sleep at all. He was up for the day. So I’ve had to plan my life around that reality, right? Which is if

[00:32:52] I don’t go to sleep early, I’m going to be woken up early. Even if my partner does get up with our son, or I set him up with his tablet and he watches

[00:33:00] Netflix for the first little bit. I’m still being woken up early in the morning. So I build that in, but what I used to do is exactly what you’re describing. I had the exact same routine. New York Times, email. And when I…

[00:33:11] When my email was on my phone, which it’s not anymore, is I have four different email accounts with Gmail, and I found myself compulsively… I’ll just pick up my phone and I’ll just flip between all four accounts. I check all four inboxes within a matter of seconds. There’s literally no reason for me to do that because first of all,

[00:33:30] our hello at email for hello at money nuts and bolts is not mine. I don’t manage it.

[00:33:35] It’s Christelle’s. She’s in charge of it. So even if I see something there, it’s hers to take care of. And she’ll let me know if she needs something from me. My private practice email is basically inactive. I only get marketing emails or like angry emails from my college when I forget to update my dues soon enough.

[00:33:51] My personal email, almost nothing happens. And then my business email, I’m not going to answer if I’m not in work hours anyways. But I found that I developed this compulsive almost tick of I don’t know what to do… Suddenly my phone is in my hand, and I’m flipping through my Gmails compulsively.

[00:34:05] So I used to do that in the morning, even though I’ve probably never sent an email from bed in my life. And then I would read the New York Times, which was extremely depressing. I’m not even American. I can do nothing about anything else in your country, but I developed a real news addiction, and sometimes I’d lie in bed…

[00:34:21] I have a timer on the New York Times and other news apps. Sometimes I might even read the news for 45 minutes before I got out of bed, and all I’m doing is

[00:34:28] delaying starting my day, feeding my body, spending time with my family, taking care of myself. There’s this story that it’s a break, and I’m like, easing into the day as you said. That is definitely not what it was for me. That’s not what I was actually

[00:34:42] doing. I think I was delaying getting up. And I think for me it’s a remnant from some periods of depression that I went through during COVID, and some things that happened in my personal life during COVID, I kind of developed this habit, and like, COVID, it wasn’t very exciting to get up because every day is the same.

[00:34:55] What are you going to do? And it was kind of left over. So, now, Digital Minimalism, Cal Newport’s other book, which I haven’t read, but it’s part of his course, I’ve gotten rid of… No news apps on my phone. No Gmail, no Instagram, no Facebook. And sometimes if things notify me, I’m like, “Oh, yeah. You get out of here, too.”

[00:35:13] My phone is very boring. I’ve made it very boring. And that’s been extremely helpful for me in terms of deep work, but also just my own mental space, as you say, like I now phone

[00:35:26] doesn’t have anything to give me. I also had a little game I used to play in the evening, this little scavenger hunt game.

[00:35:30] It was very cute. But I just wasted time. Because what I’ve actually found is setting myself up in the day to have periods of time. So I do deep work on Tuesday mornings and Wednesday mornings, right? I have a fairly large team at this point. So I have a lot of folks to communicate with, but those are the mornings where I have deep work time, and they’re also starting to implement deep work time.

[00:35:48] Like our new marketing coordinator. I’m like, you’re an artist. Please, don’t feel like you have to us.

[00:35:52] Go off and make gorgeous things.

[00:35:54] It feels so good to actually make time to do the important things and get them done. It just calms my whole body to see myself making progress. And it feels in some way, too, like a coming home to myself, where I’m just really honest with myself about what actually makes me feel good?

[00:36:09] What is important to me? Like where do I want to grow as a person? And actually nurturing those things rather than this constant reactive relationship with like email, and relationship with my phone, relationship with my work. Because something I’ve saying to my team, which I got from Deep Work and Digital Minimalism, is that we are not emergency workers. We do not provide emergency services.

[00:36:20] David: Yes.

[00:36:28] Linzy: If we get an email in the inbox, even for Christelle, it’s her inbox. So far, we’ve never gotten an email saying there’s an intruder in my house. Please call 9 1 1, and this is the address, Right, that’s not what we do. We’re not a crisis line, right? We’re not an emergency service.

[00:36:41] And so, there’s actually no reason that we all have to have our nervous systems primed for danger by checking our inboxes constantly. That’s

[00:36:49] not the kind of work that we do. Right? And so that has been really helpful for me to really settle into and trying to help my team settle into it too, of we actually have like much larger purposes to serve. And it’s so much better for our business, for us to be like really sinking in and like building this new course or like, finding ways for other folks to find us so they can take the course or find the podcast.

[00:37:08] That is having such a bigger impact in our life than replying to this particular email in four hours instead of 20 minutes.

[00:37:15] David: Right, yeah.

[00:37:16] Linzy: It doesn’t make any difference. It doesn’t make any difference. So those are some like big things that I have found, but certainly for me implementing like the mix of deep work with like really taking my tasks seriously and taking my own growth seriously and scheduling that week, combining that with like Digital Minimalism.

[00:37:31] And another part of that too, I will say is, Cal Newport has this phone foyer concept, which totally brings me back to my own house in the eighties when I was a child. So when I was a child,

[00:37:41] the phone was up on the wall, it had a coil phone cord. There was a stool in front of it, which now lives in my kitchen.

[00:37:49] I now have that stool. And I remember my mom sitting on the stool, talking on the phone because that’s where the phone lived. Like you go to the phone to use the phone doesn’t come with you. And one of the things that

[00:37:59] has really stuck out to me is this idea of your phone is not your companion. Like we don’t need to carry our phone all over the house. Again. I’m not on call. I’m not a first responder. My brother is a first responder. You know, he does have to do emergency rescue calls. He should have his phone nearby. That’s just not my

[00:38:13] life. And I have found leaving my phone in one spot in my house has allowed me to actually start just being present in my life.

[00:38:20] David: Yeah, so cool.

[00:38:21] Linzy: It’s been transformative for me, especially along

[00:38:25] with the deep work practices, because what it means is if I’m sitting on the couch and I don’t know what to do, I can’t just look at my phone. I actually have to decide:

[00:38:33] what do I actually want to do? Oh, my son wants to do tie dye?

[00:38:36] I had an experience where my son wanted to make tie dye. We had these leftover tie dye packets. He’s like, let’s make tie dye. And I was like, we don’t really have time. And then I was thinking, well, what else are we doing? Cause usually what I would say to him is we don’t really have time.

[00:38:46] You have to go to bed soon. I would scroll on my phone for a while. He would watch his tablet, and then I would get him ready for bed. Instead, because I don’t have this crutch of my phone anymore. I was like, let’s do tie dye. And turns out tie dye only takes 20 minutes.

[00:38:59] David: Yeah, interesting.

[00:39:00] Linzy: We did tie dye a weeknight. We had this fun experience together. He was making a mess, but I was just focusing on him, so I could just clean up. We made this cool

[00:39:08] thing. He was really happy. We had this nice experience. He went to bed. It was like such a better Tuesday evening than I would have had doing the scavenger hunt game on my phone.

[00:39:17] David: Right. Yeah. I mean, that’s so powerful. And as I hear us talking, I’m just reminded of the fact that this is such counter cultural stuff that we’re talking about. this isn’t just folks we know. It’s not just therapists, right? This is our whole culture. Like this is how everyone just sort of lives… Not everyone. But this is the dominant cultural practice of distraction, and phone as companion. And yeah, just this automatic habit of I’m bored, or I have an instant where I don’t know what to do next, and so I just open my phone and let the lights distract me.

[00:39:48] I’m just remembering that one thing my partner has recently done is you can enable the phone… I forget what it’s called, but you can turn it into sort of like black and white mode, so it’s just less engaging. Okay. 

[00:39:58] Linzy: I do that. 

[00:40:01] David: Do you?

[00:40:02] Linzy:  It looks so boring. It’s great. Thinking then about, you know, what we’re talking about, kind of deep work. Talking a little bit of digital minimalism in the mix to make room to just be present, and

[00:40:11] money. How do you see deep work intersecting with finances, and money, and the kind of stuff that we help therapists with?

[00:40:18] David: Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, money work is deep work, especially in the beginning. I mean, there’s… once you get used to it and you get your system set up, there are certain things that can become shallow work. And that’s kind of part of the goal almost. You want it to be easy to accomplish and engage with.

[00:40:36] But in the beginning, it is very much deep work because there’s so much learning that needs to take place of just familiarizing yourself, even doing exposure therapy with yourself and some of your money stuff. Because emotions do jump up when we touch money, whether it’s money in our practices or money in our personal life. And one thing that I really encourage folks to do, I call them kind of like money dates, which is a term I borrowed from someone, but just having a dedicated time every week.

[00:41:05] And I think really, at least every week, I want to say, like to develop the habit of engaging with your finances in some way, shape, or form. And that really… Those money dates are really meant to be kind of exploratory and curiosity driven, so it’s not really a time to do your bookkeeping per se. But it’s a time to learn different ways to do your bookkeeping or to learn about different software applications that you might consider using for your bookkeeping, just as an example. But there is always so much to be learned in the financial world, and I think it’s just important to dedicate time to it, and just understand that everyone has to learn this stuff.

[00:41:43] Most folks aren’t going to be taught it in any type of structured educational setting. So it’s really just upon us to kind of figure it out ourselves. And obviously there’s folks like you and me that help people navigate this. But we can’t really do the work for you. You know, like we can help guide you.

[00:42:02] But there’s always going to be some work that has to be done by yourself. That’s just for the nature of it.

[00:42:07] Linzy: Yeah, there’s like the learning work that kind of building new, you know, neuropathways, and then there’s also the emotional work of dealing with your own emotional landscape as you’re doing this

[00:42:16] work. And I was thinking the exact same thing earlier in our conversation, because I did have this little side thought of like, is money work deep work, or shallow work? And I completely agree with you. I think that when we start dealing with our finances, and we start looking at our money stories and trying to make big financial plans, and think about our goals. That is deep work for sure.

[00:42:33] That is work that is going to benefit from you taking an hour to be with it, to do some reading, and deep work can involve other people. It could be talking with your partner about what do we want, what’s important to us.

[00:42:43] You know, like what do we want our money to do for us and our family this year? You know, what experiences do we want to have? What goals? So, definitely deep work. But I have the same goal as you, which is that eventually I want there to be shallow work aspects because folks have locked in their systems, and they’ve locked in their goals, and they’ve done that deeper work and they’re like, “Oh, I just need

[00:43:03] to update my spreadsheet,” or Oh, I just need to send my money over to my investments. Like I do every, you know, 28th of the month.” And now it’s just become a little task that you do that might take literally three minutes instead of this like deep, wait, what does that mean? Well, what’s happening right now? Taking all of that weight out of it is a goal. And then of course, there’s always going to be other things for you to learn about.

[00:43:23] David: Yep.

[00:43:24] Linzy: Mostly it should become something that’s kind of more automated, and doesn’t take a lot of energy.

[00:43:29] And then, you know, then you can use your deep work time and energy to learn other things or do other projects in your life.

[00:43:34] David: Yeah, I think that’s well said.

[00:43:36] Linzy: Something else I think about with Deep Work and money is I would argue that, and this is what Cal Newport does argue in the book, right, is like folks who take the time to get really good at something, to value their own learning and become experts in their area, that will have financial returns for you in any kind of business. In private

[00:43:54] practice, in businesses like ours, you know, where we’re helping folks with money in different ways. What I can see is if you are somebody who really takes the time to value your skills, that’s going to allow you to do better therapy, which is going to allow you to charge more per session or get off insurance if that’s a goal that you have, right?

[00:44:13] Or find other ways to reach folks, do deep work to build out a course, right? So that you can reach a thousand people with your lessons. If you don’t want to do premium work, reach a thousand people who pay you, like, 200 each, right? Like that kind of work definitely creates opportunity for positive financial returns in a business.

[00:44:32] David: Absolutely. No matter whether you’re a therapist or a financial planner or any other profession in this world, it’s easy to worry about what’s happening, what’s AI going to do, is our job going to be stolen or what, you know… Who knows what’s going to happen? We can’t predict the future.

[00:44:45] But what I really believe, and I think Cal Newport argues this in the book, too, it’s just if you can get really good at deep work, which is learning how to do new things, and get really good at solving complex problems or difficult problems, the nature of your work might evolve as the world evolves, but if you are really good at learning and really good at solving complex problems, Like you’re always going to have a marketable skill, whatever that looks like. So who knows what your business evolves into who knows what the world

[00:45:14] evolves into… but if you can develop this deep work skill, I think you’re always going to be in a good spot to respond thoughtfully to the world as it is.

[00:45:25] Linzy: Yeah. You become indispensable.

[00:45:28] David: Exactly. Yep.

[00:45:28] Linzy: I think another Cal Newport book… Cal Newport should be here. I should have just invited him to come talk to us.

[00:45:33] David: Yeah, we should!

[00:45:33] Linzy: But it’s I think it’s, something like So Good They Can’t Deny You, or something like that…

[00:45:37] There’s another book that he has, which is basically making this argument, and it’s a quote from Steve Martin, but it’s be so good that you’re undeniable. Be undeniable. Really hone a skill so clearly that you are just known for this, in your city, in your state, in your area of expertise.

[00:45:53] If you’re a perinatal therapist, take the time to take yourself seriously and be, like, an incredible perinatal therapist, you know, that a bunch of other therapists look up to, right? And so, we all

[00:46:02] have that opportunity, but I think that’s another piece. And as we’re talking, I’m just thinking now, David, about how as I’m, you know, kind of moving into the Cal Newport world, it’s a lot of men. A lot of men are in that space.

[00:46:13] Right?

[00:46:13] David: Interesting.

[00:46:14] Linzy: I think that… I don’t think, I know that men are socialized to take their gifts more seriously and to believe that they do have gifts to share with the world. And something that I see with the folks that I support, like with women and marginalized folks and queer folks, is

[00:46:27] they’re generally socialized to believe that they don’t have gifts, right? And that they don’t have something special to offer the world.

[00:46:33] And what I want to say to folks who are listening is you know, as David was saying, like it is counter cultural to do these things, but it’s also especially counter cultural for women and marginalized folks to do these things, to take yourself seriously, and take your gifts seriously and build a schedule that actually allows you to hone your gifts.

[00:46:50] And like, where you’re really owning your learning and your gifts. That is, kind of not what you’re supposed to be doing in these marginalized positions. But I have to say,

[00:46:59] most of the therapists that I meet are brilliant. They’re brilliant people, but they don’t recognize that gift in themselves.

[00:47:05] Do you notice that working with therapists, like them not recognizing the value of what they offer?

[00:47:10] David: You know, sometimes, but I think it’s definitely out there, and I suffer from that, too, sometimes, you know, as well. I, I think, yeah, a lot of folks do. As you said that, I was like, oh yeah, like that’s so important, and what jumps out to me is just this: build your community. Get people around you to remind you of this fact because I struggle with it, too, and sometimes I’m just like, oh god, like I’m a cis white male, like I should be…

[00:47:32] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:47:32] David: Like I should have this down pat, and like in a lot of ways, like I have, there’s a lot of privilege behind that, like I am gay as well, so there is that, that The factor and so sometimes i’m like, yeah, like it’s just when you said that i’m like gosh for so long like… what like… where did that come from?

[00:47:46] Like why do I think that way? And I’ve done a lot of work recently to really shift that narrative, but like community, and having people to talk to has been so important in that. And a therapist too, by the way. A therapist, but also a community.

[00:47:59] Linzy: Also, we love therapists. Yes.

[00:48:01] Yeah, And I agree. I think for myself, I have built a network of friends who are all across North America. Nobody’s even in my province or my country,

[00:48:10] but I have found that network of folks who are all women who do recognize my brilliance. I recognize theirs.

[00:48:17] We lift each other up. We encourage each other. We just kind of reflect back the best in each other, and challenge each other, and I think that is essential is to have folks who are going to support you to be your best self,

[00:48:28] right? Not folks who might be unconsciously wanting you to just be a helper to them, or stay small for whatever relational reason you might have between you.

[00:48:35] So Yeah. That’s a very powerful point as well. So David, thank you for coming.

[00:48:41] David: Yeah. Thank you!

[00:48:41] Linzy: Thank you for nerding out about Cal Newport and Deep Work with me. For folks who are listening who want to get further into your world, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:48:50] David: Yeah, the best place is probably to visit my website, which is turningpointhq.com. So HQ, like the abbreviation for headquarters, turningpointhq.com. I’m also… one of my deep work goals for this year is getting more into social media, which also sounds… That sounds a little counterintuitive, but social media is not something that I am very familiar with.

[00:49:09] So I’m on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is my big space. So you can find me there under David W. Frank, if you want. But there’s links to all that on my website as well.

[00:49:17] Linzy: Yes. And I think, just to be fair, social media can be deep work when you’re really like getting into that creation and strategy

[00:49:24] piece of it. It’s just the checking of it that can be distracting, but you can batch that.

[00:49:27] David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Batch it.

[00:49:30] Linzy: Awesome. Thank you, David.

[00:49:32] David: Yeah. Thank you. This has been so fun.

[00:49:49] Linzy: I feel like my conversation with David could have been twice as long, and after we stopped recording we continued to talk for a little while about some of the ideas about learning and, you know, how much learning we’re capable of… There’s a lot to talk about when we start to dig into creating space in your life to do

[00:50:05] work that is meaningful and satisfying and makes a big difference. So, I really appreciate David coming on the podcast today to dig into something that I’ve been very passionate about that I’ve seen make a huge difference in my own business. And if you’re curious about Deep Work, these are not our ideas.

[00:50:19] We’re talking about Cal Newport’s ideas. You can check him out. As David mentioned, he is a computers professor, a world that I know nothing about, who’s written Deep Work, and Digital Minimalism, and several other books basically all make arguments around how we use our time and how we use our minds is important.

[00:50:38] And when we’re intentional about how we use our time and our minds, we can do really meaningful, satisfying work and make a big difference in our fields, and everybody listening, you know, you are an expert in your own focus area of your practice. If your niche, you know, you’ve got your modality, you’ve got your lived experiences, you’ve got your skills that you’ve built.

[00:50:58] And I would really encourage you to think about how you could build more time into your week to really take your own learning and growth seriously. And those deeper tasks, those things that take focus, give yourself that gift of focus to work on your business and let yourself learn and be really great at the things that you love and that you’re already really great at.

[00:51:19] You can follow me on Instagram at money, nuts and bolts. And as always, I do really appreciate your reviews on Apple Podcasts. So if you’re enjoying the podcast, if you could jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review, sharing your favorite episode, what you enjoy about the podcast, the impact that it’s had for you.

[00:51:37] It is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today.