Ashley: [00:00:00] I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not all the negative things that come up. / 

Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast. So today is a little bit of a different episode. Today my guest is Ashley Dickson-Ellison, who is our podcast editor, so this conversation kind of came about organically when we were chatting and this is mentioned a little bit in the episode about Ashley and whether or not she was like charging us enough for the work that she’s doing and maybe the work that she’s doing has grown.

And she was mentioning how anxiety inducing it is for her to think about upping her package with us and really charging us for all the work that she was doing. And we kind of made a joke on our podcast meeting of, you should come on the podcast. And it was like, no, you should come on the podcast.

So Ashley’s coming on the podcast today– she’ll also be editing this episode– to talk about her anxiety about charging for the work that she does. So in our conversation today, we dig into that anxiety that I know so many therapists and health practitioners can relate to. That fear of asking for the money that you actually need and really valuing your service.

But in our conversation with Ashley, we also got into really connecting with what she’s offering that’s different and really being able to start to recognize and articulate what is different about what she’s doing and being able to trust the bigger picture and see herself as being in an investment period.

So we talk about investment periods, what that means, how to distinguish between when you’re in an investment period and when your business is just not working, and being able to like step into really owning your expertise and trusting that you’re building something bigger and better. Some of that patience, so, so many pieces that apply to all of us in business.

Here is my conversation with Ashley Dickson-Ellison. 

 So Ashley, welcome to the podcast.

Ashley: Thank you. Thanks for having me. ​ 

Linzy: Yeah. Thank you for being here. This is a little bit of a funny, like, you’re showing up in the process earlier than usual, because you are not a therapist. You are our podcast editor. 

Ashley: Yeah. So I work with you all in that capacity, but I have found as I am a listener to the podcast that I, as a small business owner, definitely have a lot of similarities to people in private practice.

Linzy: Absolutely. And I think there’s a lot of overlap, too, in terms of just your identity and probably like your level of education. Like, You’ve got a lot in common with our listeners and also you’re a creative type. And something I was thinking about, too, as I was thinking about this episode – because we decided to record this episode kind of organically chatting through our own kind of contract negotiation that we’re doing between us right now – and like you were talking about the emotions that are coming up and we kind of made a joke with our podcast team of like, “Oh, you should come on the podcast,” and I was like, “No, you should come on the podcast!” Because I think the emotions that you are experiencing are exactly what therapists are often experiencing as well, even though you’re in a different field. So, coming into our conversation today, what do you want to focus on? What is kind of something that we can start with in terms of challenges around money? 

Ashley: Yeah. So I think what I’d love your help with, Linzy, is navigating all the emotions that come up when figuring out how to price something and then navigating that with a client. So I find that it is really hard for me to both respect what I need to live, what I need people to pay me for my services to take care of myself and my family, and to balance that with what I think they think is fair.

I try not to get too caught up in the race to the bottom situation, but there, you know, realistically, there are lots of people out there who, for many, many reasons, do it for a lot less, and so I think I kind of have to figure out how to handle that, and just in general, when I think about all the pain points in my business, the thing that is the most painful is navigating finances with clients.

Linzy: Okay. So it’s, it’s that relationship piece of the money between you and your clients. 

Ashley: I think so. I think I feel uncomfortable even talking about it, I have realized, and then figuring it out. Like, if I could pay someone, if I knew who to ask and trust and could have them write all that stuff up for me, I would want to do that because it’s that painful to me. 

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah. Okay, so tell me then about, about that pain, like what does come up when you have to have those conversations with clients?

Ashley: Well, I notice it in my body, so I think that’s where I first realized I had a problem because typically, even if I feel anxiety, it’s more like in my head than in like my gut, whereas this is definitely like in my body, I feel sweaty, I am like waking up during the night worrying about it. I feel that kind of churning feeling, so those were some indicators to me.

And then also I’ve found that I will put it off, so like there’s somebody right now that I need to… Fortunately you, Linzy, gave me a very clear like, have this done in a couple of days, and I appreciated that, and I thought, Linzy is looking out for me. 

Linzy: I made you do it. Yeah. 

Ashley: Sure. You did, you did, and I needed that.

You know, you were like, just go ahead and get it done because you knew that once I got it off my plate, I was going to feel better. And that’s true. That is true. But if somebody doesn’t have that, then I will just keep sitting on it and trying to perfect it. I mean, so I guess the perfectionism comes up.

Like I started trying to like, get it just right. I kind of agonize over the details of it because a lot of this stuff is not clear exactly how long it’s going to take, what it is worth, like all of that stuff is kind of hard to quantify. And so then I find that I have trouble figuring it out. 

Linzy: Because you’re doing project based work, right, which is a little different than most of the folks who are listening, who are doing sessions, where it’s like you’re exchanging time for money and then you have to figure out, okay, what is the value that they’re getting from it, but there’s also this hour that’s always in the mix. For you, as you’re like doing an episode. I’m going to guess there’s variability that can happen on how long it takes you to, you know, edit somebody’s episode based on a bunch of factors.

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And I do think it’s more like if there are people listening who have other offerings, it’s that kind of thing. Like, how much is a course worth? How should I charge for a program? What is it if I’m giving somebody consultation advice instead of therapy, like, you know, what does that look like?

So I think it’s that kind of packaging and pricing is definitely the realm that I’m in and I do have a hard time both figuring it out and then also delivering it to the person. 

Linzy: I’m hearing there’s like a lot that happens in your body, which is different. That’s like a different kind of anxiety than you’re used to. Cause you said usually anxiety’s in your head.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Like I’m, you know, I get in there, I mean like a lot of people with a similar personality, I go from productive thought that is like, Oh, I need to figure this thing out. To the stuck spiral of I’m gonna keep thinking about this even though I’ve already drawn any logical conclusions I can draw that’s already happened, but I know that and I recognize it and it doesn’t always work. But I do have things that I know to do when that happens. Whereas like I said this one I just have noticed it’s just totally different.

I mean, I was in education for 17 years prior and I never once had to talk to anyone about what I made. There’s no, I mean, it’s publicly available. There’s no negotiation. There’s no pay for extra things. So I think, like, it’s just totally different than what I am accustomed to.

Linzy: I think that’s so relevant because something that I noticed as, as a Canadian. So I’m Canadian, you’re American. This is one of the things that’s like so different about Canada and the United States is that in Canada, being a teacher is a well paid profession, 

Ashley: I have heard you say that, but I did not know that prior to working with you. 

Linzy: And this is something I’ve had to adjust to is when like my students talk about how like well I have this client and like she’s on sliding scale because she’s a teacher. Like it didn’t make sense to my brain at first because in Canada teaching is a profession where you make like 70, 80, 90… you get the summers off, like it’s a hard profession, but it’s like solid. I would say it still has maybe some of the issues with respect in terms of being like a feminized profession that people like expect everything of their teachers, but you’re getting paid well. Like it’s, you’re comfortable financially. But in the United States that is not the case. 

Ashley: Depends on the state and your experience. I will say that for me, my partner is also an educator and like we live comfortably, but we also are very careful about our budget and we’ve always just lived kind of simply, which has meant that it was fine, but absolutely like from state to state, there are differences in how well you are paid.And there are differences in level. Like I have a master’s. Like those things sometimes help, but not a lot, you know, you’re talking about a couple thousand dollars a year, maybe, for a difference. We’re not talking about 10, 000. So, you know, there are some things that you can do, but absolutely in our, in our partnership, we’ve always tried to just keep our debt low and those kinds of things so that we could live on their salaries.

But for sure, it is kind of taken for granted in the U. S. that when I say that I’m a teacher, people kind of assume a lot of things that have to do with financial stability and it’s because of that. So definitely both not super well paid and then also exactly what you said of you’re not only- that’s an expectation, but additionally, you should be staying after to give help. You should be- of course, I did English. So I always was grading at night and on the weekend. I was planning at night and on the weekend. And all of that you would never be compensated for. So I think again, I have to remind myself if I provide a service. I need to be paid for that service. And if that service is different than the thing that I originally offered, I need to say that. And that’s another financial pain point. It’s like, I would rather just let it go.

Linzy: yes, right, 

Ashley: I know this is not right, Linzy. Okay, I know, I know. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I’m here. It’s because I know I need to work through this. But basically, I would rather sit in that space than have to navigate saying, like, hey, I’m doing this thing and it’s taking this much time and I need to be compensated for it. So, like, that’s why I’m just like, okay, I need to deal with this as a business owner, or I’m going to continue to have these problems. 

Linzy: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Ashley: Because it’s kind of like the systems aren’t working for me. 

Linzy: No. Yeah and like what I’m hearing is there’s a certain amount of conditioning that, you know, would have come from your previous job. It’s not like you came from law where it’s like if you think about somebody while you’re brushing your teeth, you get to bill for that time. Right? Which is a very, very different frame around work and when you’re working and when you’re not and what’s valuable. 

Like you’re coming from a profession where it was expected that you’re doing all of this extra work beyond your work day and you couldn’t not do that. There’s no way that you could not grade people’s papers and be like, well, sorry, I wasn’t working. So that’s built in. And now you’re coming into your own business, or you’ve been in your own business, where you do need to think about charging for that time, like that, or you have the option of charging for that time.

Like, how do you think about the difference now in the work that you’re doing compared to, you know, when you were in teaching and you were on a salary?

Ashley: Yeah, I try to remind myself that I am only paid for the things I deliver. 

Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm 

Ashley: And that that means it’s okay to say, Hey, I’m delivering this, this and this. And we only originally talked about A, but now it’s A, B, and C. In my mind, I think I’m getting better at that. And then the other thing, and I mentioned this to you off mic, the other thing I’ve noticed is financially, I definitely needed to be making more. But then I feel like I don’t have any more time in my schedule. And so then I thought, okay, something is not right here. Because if I’m working full time, in a profession that again, in theory I should be able to do quite well in, and yet I’m not where I need to be financially, then something has to change. And some of that may need to be, like I may need to bring on some support, that may help me be more efficient with my time. So like there are some things that aren’t just package pricing. That would help I think, but also as I’m bringing on any new clients, I just want to be very strategic because I think based on what I’m seeing financially. I think that I probably am not pricing things the way I need to be pricing 

Linzy: Okay. Yeah. So let’s go back to that anxiety that does come up. Cause I’m hearing, like, you can see you should be able to get paid well for the work that you do. And I will say, as your client, I have said to people before, you know, cause I know that there’s podcast editors who do like $45 an episode, right? I’m aware that that’s out there. I made a very conscious choice to work with you and I’ve said this to you before, not just because you can like edit an episode and do decent audio, but because you hold the bandwidth, right? For our team, that’s extremely important that we have somebody. who can hold the bandwidth of whatever project they’re, you know, in charge of and is like, Oh, hey, this piece didn’t happen yet. Or like, hey, is this hanging around somewhere and I just haven’t seen it? Like where you’re actually managing the podcast, right? Because that’s extremely valuable for a small business owner like me, where it’s like, I have a lot of things that I’m managing. And there’s like my zones of genius where I can show up and like really shine. And that makes money that literally pays everybody else in our business, right? So I need to be putting my energy there. So you actually like running the podcast is much more valuable than kind of just somebody just editing, right. So there’s a lot of value that you’re bringing there in terms of how you do things. And so I will let you know that is like, I have recognized like I’m like I pay Ashley more and I’m very happy that I do because she’s doing so much more than somebody who’s just like oh okay I cleaned up like I took out the ums and ahs and I fixed the levels and here it is, and you do the rest, right. So there’s that value you’re definitely delivering in terms of the work that you’re doing. So, the anxiety. Let’s dig into that anxiety. It’s in your body. What do you notice happens? Like, you were saying there’s the waking in the middle of the night, the kind of like churning. Can you put more words to it?

Ashley: Yes, I find that I avoid, I mean, so it’s like the avoidance initially I will try not to have to deal with this, in fact that is a reason I am like reluctant right now to onboard more people because I’m just not looking forward to all the parts of that. And as far as the anxiety itself, I can tell myself I’m making the right decisions or that this is a necessary part. But I guess that there’s a fear of it not working out. There’s a fear that they’re going to say no. I mean, I’ve had to kind of decide that I’m not ever going to fill out the forms and stuff like that if it’s somebody who’s asking up front before even meeting us what the costs are. Because I think if they see that on a spreadsheet, again, there’s the people who will do it for 45. That is not the thing that is my special skill. I mean, I think what my special skill is, is working in a deep way with a team, and that I care about all that, and I, that is not going to change. If I’m standing with somebody, I am going to make sure that it’s polished. I’m going to make sure that it’s running on time. I’m going to make sure that the things that need to happen happen, and I’m going to help them brainstorm to figure out what to do when something goes awry. You know, all that stuff, and so that’s where I’ve realized that those are the parts that are hard to articulate when you are figuring out the pricing. But that, I think, is what is valuable. Like, that’s what I’ve noticed in testimonials I get from people. Like, that’s definitely the thing that seems to be different. And so, I know that. But I’ve still got to keep working through the discomfort, I think, that comes with talking about the money. Talking about that I’m offering a service.

Linzy: What I’m hearing is you see the value of what you do. You recognize that what you do is not what everybody does, and I think about you more as like a manager. What title do you use for yourself? How do you think about your job?

Ashley: Yeah, that’s a great question, and it is something I’ve had a hard time pinning down. I went to a conference recently, so I finally had to, this is another thing I procrastinated on, but I finally put podcast management, and what I often say is I put, like, audio and video editing also. If there’s a space to put extra things. But I have started saying podcast management for exactly that reason. And sometimes I say in post production because people know what that means, the like post production part. And sometimes people are kind of looking for that.

So I do find that it’s an area where people still are being educated about what the offerings are and what they mean. And so I try to use words that might make sense to people, but I have gotten away from just editor and have started saying management

Linzy: I’m really glad to hear you say that because I think that, too, is you owning the level of skill that you’re bringing to it, right? Like it’s one thing to be able to edit audio and that’s a specialized technical skill set, but that like people managing, relationship building, you know, as you said, like being part of a team, which you very much are part of our team, like that is a skill set that also I feel like doesn’t always overlap with the editing skills, right. It’s a little bit like my situation where it’s like, you have two distinct sets of skills that often don’t coincide, and that itself is really valuable that you offer these two very different things in one package.

Ashley: Thank you. And I do think that’s true, that I have to look at it as a strength, but it is also sometimes, I mean, it’s the emotional part of it can be really challenging for me. And that’s another thing I’ve had to realize is like if I’m working with the team and the team does not, like, they see me as kind of like I mean, it’s crude maybe to say, but kind of like a robot, you know, like that I, that I do the thing that they’re sending and that’s kind of it, that does not work for me.

And so there are partnerships that, you know, I’ve kind of been like, Oh, this is not the right fit because I’ve had to be like, I want people who care about that connection and that they value it also. And so, you know, again, like thinking about the packaging, but also how to present those things. That’s challenging. 

Linzy: Yes. Yeah, because what I’m hearing here is part of it is really owning, in therapy we would call it owning your niche, right? Like that you are offering something that’s very different and specific and also you’re a very specific kind of person, right?

So like I know when I was talking with my friend Maegan Megginson – who’s also chatting with you about podcast stuff – I’m like, she’s educated, she’s articulate, she’s kind, she’s responsible, like those kinds of things are really, really valuable. But part of it, I think, from a marketing perspective, is you owning those things to be able to like, be like, Hey, I’m educated, I’m articulate, I’m kind, I’m responsible, you know, and like owning that, cause that’s actually a big part of what you’re offering, right? Like, you’re not just doing audio editing or like giving us a spreadsheet, it’s like you are really emotionally intelligent and also technically gifted and really rooted in the podcast world.

Ashley: Well, thank you. That’s nice to hear, I really appreciate you saying that, and I think maybe that is something I really need to work on, is thinking about how to market that to people I don’t already work with, because that’s exactly it, is once I have those relationships, I feel good about them. I think that my partners feel good about them. It’s a good fit for everybody, and that part feels really good to me, and it’s satisfying. But then, you know, how do I help people see that? Because again, otherwise, I’m going to have to price in a way that is competing with people who aren’t offering any of those services. And then, I can’t sustain it, because again, I can only have a few partners. I mean, realistically, I think – you and I talked about that off mic – realistically, I can only have a few partners, because that’s the only way to do what I want to do and do it well. 

Linzy: Yes, because it’s a quality over quantity situation. Like you can’t have 10 podcasts you’re working on. 

Ashley: No. And there are people who do like 20 a week. I mean, it’s, it’s like the sessions and people talking about how many sessions can you handle a week and how do you make your numbers work, but also make your life work. And I haven’t figured that out yet, but I know that my number is very small in comparison to a lot of other people.

Linzy: Totally yeah, and and there very much is that parallel to therapy, like we talked about like there’s gonna be your specific thing that you’re doing right and like some things, like doing CBT, takes less emotional energy than doing like complex trauma, right? Like they’re just, you’re using kind of your brain a different way, you’re having to respond differently, but also then it’s just like you as a person, right? Like your energy, how much energy do you have as a person? What else in your life is happening? Like what other demands are coming up that you might have to make space for or that are just priorities to you? Like for me, this week, I mentioned to you off mic, I prioritized this week like taking a friend to the emergency room on Monday night… I left the emergency room for a bit went to a stand up comedy show, went back to be with her until she was finally admitted because that’s important to me, right. And like I could not have that be important to me and then it wouldn’t be on my schedule. But like, that’s actually a really important part of how I live my life. So I have to think about a business that’s going to let me do that. And not everything’s going to fall apart if I step out to to help a friend who, you know, needs support, right. And so that’s the other factor for you to think about too is like you’ve got your daughters and like you move a lot as a family because of your partner’s work, right. So like really owning those pieces of your life too, to think about what, how many clients could you actually work with in the way that you like to work, in the life that you like to have. And I’m curious with that, Ashley, like, is there a number that rises to the surface for you if you really think about that?

Ashley: I used to think five was doable and these days that feels like too much. So I do think it has to do with frequency of release if i’m working with everybody, if everybody’s doing podcasts and I have supported people a little bit in other things. So that makes a difference like if I did an audiobook or if I did- I’m helping somebody edit all their courses, and so that pacing is different, and I still like that relationship, but I do also like that it does not have the imminent 5 a.m. deadlines that I experience for my podcast partners. So it does make a difference as far as how frequently they release, but I would say five or less, and realistically, maybe more like three.

Linzy: Three is the number that was coming up for me. I don’t know why.

Ashley: Thank you, 

Linzy: It’s in the air. It’s in the air. Yeah. Yeah. So three. Okay. So if you think about three then, do you know what price point you need to be, you know, working out with those three partners or what the total needs to be per month for you to contribute what you need to contribute to your household?

Ashley: It’s been hard for me to say. I think my first goal was, and I started this in the spring of 2021, so I worked the academic year of 2021, and then I left that job in the summer. And I was still paid through the summer for my teaching position. So I got a little cushion there, but that’s kind of when I started was spring, summer 2021. And my initial goal was just to replace my salary, which was about like 55, 000.

Linzy: Mmhm.

Ashley: I did that. I did, over time, I did replace that, but I was, there were all the balls up in the air all the time, and I was like, oh my goodness, I kind of set this financial goal as a way to decide how many people to take on, and then I met my goal, but at a very high cost, and so then I thought, okay, I need to look at this in another way, you know, when it can’t just be about meeting the financial goal.

And then ultimately what I have realized is that I’m not sure that I’m satisfied with that amount either. And I think that’s been hard. I’ve listened to you talk with people about this, but I think we just have to be honest with ourselves about what we really need financially. And it makes me uncomfortable to realize that I think our family needs more than we thought we did, and that’s because, you know, I have a seven and a nine year old. They’re getting older, but I mean, I’m just like, I feel, people probably relate to this, I feel like we’re like burning our money in the street. I mean, sometimes I’m sort of like, where is it all going? Because I think we have relatively secure jobs and yet, It’s not enough.

So I have kind of thought, I mean, I’m not even at that number now because I did let go of a big partner. Linzy knows a little bit about this, but basically I let go of somebody because our family was going overseas for a little while. It was the right move for me. I was doing a lot of work that was not in my niche, as you said, and that was good for the short term, but it was preventing me from figuring out what my passion is and really making sure all my partnerships do that and match that passion. And so I let go of that. Well, because of that, I have a deficit and so I feel this friction between what I see and believe can happen. But have to be patient for. And then what I see right now on my bank account where I see that the money going out is a lot more than the money coming in and that is not a great feeling.

So, you know, kind of dealing with that. I mean, I don’t think we’re in crisis. We’re fortunate that we can survive that deficit for a period of time, but it doesn’t feel good.

Linzy: No, no, of course not. Okay. Okay. So right now you’re actually in the negative of where you need to be. So we’re not even talking about lifestyle improvement. We’re just talking about like your money catching up to your life. 

Ashley: Yes. And the other big factor is, we’ll have another client that they, for lots of reasons that make a lot of sense, they’re going to be dissolving probably. So like that could transition and I could work with a new partnership there, you know, like in their company. But if I lose that, it’s going to be a big loss and that could happen imminently. And so that’s kind of new for me also that again, teaching, maybe you don’t make a ton, but you have a lot of security. Like, I felt very secure in that, and so, like, learning to live with the ups and downs has been really hard. 

Linzy: Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And with the kind of work that you’re talking about too, like, it’s a little bit different than therapy work because therapy work tends to be like, I have this many spots, oh, two spots opened, but already my website’s out there. Already people have been checking me out. I’m already getting inquiries. I can fill those two spots. Like, but with you, it’s like, maybe you have three clients. We get to the point where you have three clients. If one client leaves, it’s like a third of your income is gone, right? And then you have to look around to find that other third of your income again, which is a significant, significant hit. You have all your eggs in – or many eggs – in one basket. no other baskets.

Ashley: Right. 

Linzy: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes. Yes, that’s a great analogy.

Linzy: So I’m going to bring us back to that anxiety again, because we keep circling it, but we haven’t actually gotten to it. I’m curious, like, what is the fear? Like what is the thing that you really fear happening that your body is telling you about?

Ashley: I think that it won’t work. That I will make changes that in some ways feel a little selfish, like letting go of that client, I do think was the right thing for me, but it impacts my family. It impacts my family financially and kind of immediately. And that felt like a big risk. And knowing that I’m going to have to keep doing that kind of thing causes me anxiety.

And immediately when the client, who we might dissolve here coming up, when they called me, right after that, I went on the… Greenville County is where we live. The Greenville County School Board, of course, there’s a million jobs posted. And immediately I was like, oh, I could just apply. I could apply for next year. And so there’s this idea of, and of course my partner comes home and is like, Let, let’s- 

Linzy: Yeah. 

Ashley: -take a breath and talk about all the things you could do that are not that. And I loved the classroom, but I needed to leave when I left. So, like, I needed to for myself, I needed to for my family, and I know that.

So I have to just keep reminding myself that even though there is comfort in thinking about a W2 position that has a very steady income and that doesn’t have these, like, ebbs and flows. There is comfort in that, but I know in my mind that that is not the pathway I want to be on and that I’ve worked hard to get here.

I’ve worked hard the last two and a half years to build this space and create these partnerships who, you know, and I’m very, I’m very attached to your team. I’m attached to the other teams I work with, and so while I recognize that there will be changes, and of course people will have to move on for lots of reasons, that, that I need to learn to live with.

Linzy: Hmm. Yeah, and I wonder, what makes it worth it to have to weather that?

Ashley: I think I have found that I am skilled at helping people see why a podcast is really valuable and how it can really build their community. Reach people who they would not reach otherwise. And so I really love that. I mean, I have my own that we have stayed with despite all the ups and downs for since 2018.

And it’s been hard. But I think that there have been times where we thought it would fall apart. And I realized I wasn’t ready to let it go. And so then I had to be like, what is it that I love about this so much that I am not willing to let it go. And so I think I feel passionate about the creation. I love to create also.

And so I think I love that creating. And then, you know, I work from home. And I love the flexibility I have with that. And that was a big help for our family. So before when I was working, you know, I’m in the building all day. My partner’s at a university all day. And the kids need anything. It always felt like complete chaos every time somebody’s schedule didn’t run exactly the way it was supposed to and I was just so tired of that cycle of just feeling like we’re constantly one step from total disaster.

And so I do feel like this job, even though I have this part that I got to figure out and make feel better, I feel way way more present with my kids. I feel way more flexible with my day And all of that feels really good because before I did, you know, make some changes within education, like I left the English classroom, I went into instructional technology, and I did that to try to dial down the amount of energy I was expending throughout the day.

And it did help, but I still came home running very close to empty. I mean, I’m a highly sensitive person. I love working with kids, but I also carry every bit of work, what they have going on, and that was fine before I had my own kids and then once I had them I was just like, This does not work. This does not work.

And I felt like I knew that you know – my oldest daughter is nine and a half – I knew that the moment she was born, basically, I was like something has to change.

Linzy: Yes, yeah, and I relate to that very much. I just was having a memory yesterday of a mentor of mine, who’s actually a mother of one of my friends, sent me a card after my son was born and was like, you know, having a child is going to let you understand your clients at a whole new level.

And I just remember thinking, no, I don’t, I don’t want to. That for me was like a very clear like, no, I actually don’t want to like have to be doing all of that emotional work and that intensity and rawness and like, yeah, carrying all that stuff and also like parenting this tiny human. I knew that for me, those things were not compatible and it sounds like for you, it was a similar realization. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah Yeah, yeah. And I felt like I did something and I did it for like six years that I felt like made it more containable and it taught me all these skills. I mean, this is how I got into the tech stuff was like making that change. So I felt like it was worth it. But even that I was ready, you know, the pandemic came and we really saw how hard it can be to try to keep everything afloat.

And so even though things have gotten back to normal in a lot of ways, I started to value the flexibility of being able to do what I needed to do when I needed to do it. And that was never a possibility before. You know, going to the dentist, taking a kid to the dentist, I mean stuff that, those just like basic logistical things were kind of impossible before.

And so that part is very freeing and makes it worth it for me to do the hard work of like, figuring out all the business side of this. Because that is the part that does not come easily to me. The relationships come great. The tech itself is fine. When I don’t know, it’s no problem for me to learn, those things are all very easy. But the business part is just, continues to be painful.

Linzy: Okay. As I’m listening to you, I’m hearing a couple things. First of all, I’m hearing the structure of this work is great for you, right? Like the flexibility, and like you’re not depleting yourself, you’re not coming home almost empty, right? Like you have the energy for your kids now, instead of kind of absorbing from other kids all day long. And then I’m also hearing you love being part of a team. You get to use this blend of skills that you have, this kind of emotional, relational intelligence that you have, as well as these tech pieces. I’m curious, like, when you think about all of the good stuff about your work, all of these pieces, like, what do you notice in your body?

Ashley: I mean, I think I feel proud. I think that I realized that I’ve made something and it was something I never, I mean… I never would have thought I’d be in tech. I never thought I’d be in business. And so I think I feel proud of that, and I did realize, like, when I had one partnership that was more of an employee situation, I realized I didn’t want that. Like, I actually wanted the freedom to feel like I’m in charge. I mean, I serve other people, and I enjoy serving them, but I’m in charge of my path, and that’s, like, really important to me. 

Linzy: Yeah. Okay, okay. So that being in charge of your path then, is there any kind of like image or feeling that comes with that? Let’s build that out a little bit. What do you think of when you think of being in charge of your path? 

Ashley: I think that there is a way that I can serve people that I’m not currently serving them. And so I have this like feeling, and I mean I’ve learned this in part from you and from hearing people talk about like programs and just other ways of kind of fleshing out what they do and taking their genius but offering it in a different way.

And so I have this feeling that maybe there’s a way that I can help people that’s not quite as intense as the partnerships. And I think if I could do that, I think I would enjoy it. I love to talk to people and be connected. And it’s funny because I’m like so introverted, but now that I work at home all the time, and I’m by myself all the time, I’m also like, oh gosh, like where are the people, you know?

And so, I think I would like the connection part, and I just don’t know what it looks like yet, and I think that I have some obstacles, some of them are the financial ones, you know, it’s just like pricing, navigating what are the offerings, but also it’s just some logistical things like locking down, narrowing it down, figuring out what exactly is the thing I want to offer, and then it gets into the marketing and stuff, which is a conversation for another day, but that is a huge barrier for me, because right now, I function through referral.

I have been able to do that. It’s been very comfortable, whereas this would require me to be more present in digital spaces in a way that I have very much chosen not to be 

Linzy: hmm. I understand that. I can relate to that. Yeah, because like what I’m hearing here is on one hand, I’m hearing, you know, there’s a part of you, and I’m gesturing to my chest, which I guess this is going to be a video, so some folks will actually see what I’m doing. Those of you listening, just to the audio will not see this, but I’m gesturing to my chest to all this anxiety that’s in your body, right? So like, there’s a part of you that’s really afraid of kind of sticking your neck out and taking up space. But then I’m hearing another part of you that knows that you have even more to offer than what you’re doing now. And you could reach even more people and have more impact in a way that costs you less. Than you do, like, even more than you are now. Right? Like, there’s even more potential here for, like, connection and, and getting what you know out to the people who, you know, can make great podcasts and make a difference in the world. I’m hearing kind of these two different parts there. Does that, does that feel familiar? That there’s kind of that duality to it?

Ashley: Absolutely. Yes. And it’s, I mean, and those two feel both in opposition and kind of in friction and yeah, so it’s again, cause it’s kind of like, there’s maybe an easier or faster path that’s going to feel more financially stable and that will help, you know, because again, I feel like if my family doesn’t get to do a thing because I made these choices, like there is an impact that I’m aware of, but then I also am like, I can’t go that direction and build out something that I don’t currently have if I don’t make space to do that. 

Linzy: Yeah. And it makes me wonder, like, the part of you that’s really afraid, right, this anxious part, what does that part of you need to know, the part of you that can have this, like, owning this excitement and realizing you have even more to offer the world, what, does that anxious part need to know?

Ashley: I think I need to trust that it is okay to let more money go out than come in for a period of time. Because I think I am very comfortable with always making sure that I’ve paid off everything all the time, and you know, we have a mortgage, but like, beyond that, like, we really just try to, like, always pay off our credit cards every month and things like that, and so I think I need to say, it’s okay to dip into some savings, maybe, to help cover this for a little bit, I think I’m always calculating, like, have I met my goal?

 And again, like, initially it was just, I just wanted to cover my salary because I felt like then, I guess I felt like that proved that it was okay to do this other thing because it was worth as much. And again, I mean, I know that’s kind of silly, but I think I’m stuck on that. I’ve like, I’m always like, oh, but I’m down this much from what I thought I needed to be making. And so I think maybe just giving permission for that is necessary to be able to try to go this other route. And then I feel like I need help to get some of those steps and figuring out that help is a big barrier. I mean, I think, you know, just I’m sure that a lot of people relate to this. It’s like I’m used to running my own show and it’s hard for me to find the right people who I really can trust and who I believe are going to do the level of work I want them to do. It’s just easier for me to just do it myself. So I think I need to let of a little.

Linzy: Which is a, you know, conversation for another time. But, yeah, because what I’m hearing in this is like, it’s almost like you need to trust yourself to make an investment in your business.

And part of that investment is right now making the space, maybe finding the right teacher to help you make courses, work on your marketing, own your branding and your niche, like whatever strategic step you decide is the next right step for your business, like somebody to help you do that, and part of the investment actually is going to be not making yourself just like make money right away and draw into these savings a little bit because you’re building something bigger and more solid and more in the direction of where you want to go. What do you think about that framing of this is an investment like you’re- and in fact you’re actually investing with your your buffer. Like money from the past. You’re not even going into like a debt for this, it sounds like at this moment you’re more just digging into savings to make the space to build something bigger or more in alignment with what’s actually going to make your heart sing or however you want to phrase that.

Ashley: I love that. I love that. I think that looking at it as an investment makes it feel like a strategic move instead of like a big risk or almost careless. Like it makes it feel like it is a purposeful decision instead of, you know, being lazy to not take those next steps or being careless because I think those are some of the things that come up when I’m in the anxiety space is just this like criticism of like, oh, but I could be doing ABCD and that is true but if I did those I know that there’s consequences for that and so then you know Trying to use what I’ve learned over the past several years to make a wise, long term move instead of solve the problem. But I do want to just solve the problem. Definitely my first impulse is like, just stick the band aid on there. Gaping wound? I don’t care.

Linzy: It’s fine. It’s fine. I’ve got Band Aids. Paw Patrol Band Aids. Yeah, because part of investing and like part of the difference between investing and just having a business that’s losing money continually or not supporting you continually is you need to be able to trust yourself to do the things to make this an investment. Right? That’s the difference between an investment period and just a business that isn’t working. In an investment period, the money might not look like you want it to look. You might be in the negative. You might be drawing into savings, but you’re like, I’m doing this with a plan. And my plan is, first I’m gonna do this, by the end of this quarter I’m gonna be here, I’m gonna be building these relationships, I’m gonna get help from this mentor who I really trust, and by this point I’m gonna be launching my courses, or I’m gonna have my like very specific packages with my new language that really like articulates exactly what I do that’s different, like you have a plan and you’re working a plan, rather than like, eh, it’ll be fine. Right? Or like, I’m just not going to look at that. Right? And like, that’s the big difference. And like, sometimes I talk about this when people ask me about, like, taking on business debt, too. Like, do you take on, like, a business line of credit? And it’s like, debt can be strategic if you’re being strategic. Right? And that’s what I’m hearing here. This is actually an opportunity. It sounds like a window or an opening for you to be strategic and part of what I’m hearing like, going back to this original piece we talked about, about giving some pricing to a current or a new potential partner, and like waiting to hear back from them and that like churning is part of it is trusting that you’re building something that is better and if somebody doesn’t value what you’re offering and isn’t willing to pay you what you actually need to live, then they’re not a fit for your relationship. Like, it’s not the right relationship for your business. And there will be somebody else who is, right? But that’s, that’s really like trusting in your vision and trusting yourself to work your vision until you make it happen. How does that land with you? 

Ashley: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think just reframing it, what I really am walking away hearing is thinking of it as an investment period makes it feel a lot better, because I think otherwise… it’s hard to justify making less when you know you could be making more right now. I mean, I could pick up stuff today, that I’m getting paid way too little for. That I could, you know, rush through and send to people.

And I know that. And so, there’s both comfort in that, because that’s nice, that there is something to do. I mean, that’s, all of that’s so new to me also, I can control what I make to a certain extent. I’ve never had that experience before. 

Linzy: Something else that this is something that I teach in like the group practice level, where you do have like this bigger business and there’s like up months and down months, is like zooming out on your business, right? Like your business is not a paycheck.

It’s not about one month at a time. It’s not about like this month I’m this much in deficit. Like we really actually want to be looking at your business from like a 12 month perspective. And it could be that when you look at the 12 months coming to the end of this year, you’re like yeah, we started slow in quarter one when I was kind of like letting go of some partners, looking for new ones, hadn’t found the right people yet, hadn’t really figured out how to articulate what I was doing, but like look at what happened in quarter three, and then we ended the year like in this place, or there was like this much extra, or I, now I’m able to pay myself this much, right?

Like having that zoomed out perspective, because anxiety tends to zoom us way in. Right? Like we’re thinking about like right now. Because anxiety is about survival. It’s about fear and survival. It’s like, there’s a tiger. What do I do right now? Right? But that’s actually not financially strategic and also what I’m hearing is like, you could “fix” this, I’m putting that in quotations, right now if you want by picking up low paying work that you don’t feel good about or going back to the school board, which you know has all these other costs, but long term that’s actually not going to get you where you want to be.

Ashley: Yes, absolutely.

Linzy: So Ashley, coming into the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Ashley: I feel a lot of clarity that it’s okay to take the long road. And I think I just appreciate, I trust you, Linzy, and I trust your financial advice. And I think it feels good to have somebody who I trust, affirm that that is a reasonable and logical pathway to follow. And that it’s purposeful and not, all the negative things that come up. And I love your ideas also about how to share what I offer and how it’s different. And I think that I really could do a lot with that because I don’t feel like anything- when I think about things I’ve sent to people before, I don’t feel like I have done that. So, you know, trying to think about- and again, that gives me a little bit of I still don’t want to do the marketing part, but it does help me think about, like, how that could be valuable just for people getting to know me. Yeah, that would be a space where I can showcase that a little bit more than like on a flat document that just kind of itemizes. 

Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you need a lot more feelings words in your marketing and a lot more adjectives about how you work, right? Because I will say, like, I’ve referred you now a couple of folks. Like, I think the, the course that you’re editing is like from one of our guests who, like, we made a joke in the podcast. Like, Oh yeah, my editor could do your course. And then afterwards you were like, were they serious? And I was like, I think they were serious. And now you’re doing that work, right?

So it’s like, I think you’re, you’re getting into, a space where there’s going to be lots of folks, like, folks that I know, and probably through other partners, too, who would really value what you do. And you being able to articulate, this is what I do, this is how it’s different, this is what really distinguishes me from the space where it’s like a lot of bros with plaid shirts doing audio editing. Like, I’m not that, and I’m all these other things, is really valuable and it’s helping, just helping folks understand why that’s so much more valuable than just having somebody edit episodes and send them back to you and be like, good luck. 

Ashley: Yes, right, maybe I need to think more about the contrast.

Linzy: Yes, the contrast. Yeah, because that’s what sets you apart, right? And it’s that whole thing of like marketing is also repelling the people who aren’t for you. So if there’s somebody who’s like, I don’t really want somebody to be part of my team and I don’t really want somebody who’s going to be like showing up and asking questions and like, you know, I just want somebody that can send stuff to and I’m not really gonna have a relationship, then you’re not for them. Right? And that’s great that you know that.

Ashley: Yes.

Linzy: So Ashley, do you want to tell people about your podcast? 

Ashley: Sure. So my own podcast is about books and I work with a teacher as my co host and it’s called Unabridged and we do a book club every month and we just talk all things bookish. So if you love books, then that’s great. And then I love working with emotionally intelligent clients in the podcast space. And my name, AshleyDicksonEllison.com is my website where you can learn more, though I will be updating my marketing to have more feeling words

Linzy: But yes, I know folks who are listening do have podcasts so if you are looking for podcast support, I am going to plug Ashley right here on this podcast that then she’s going to edit. This is all very circular. Having somebody who has the expertise to walk you through the podcast world is so, so, so, so valuable and we appreciate you. We appreciate you, Ashley. So thank you for being our podcast manager and thank you for coming on the podcast today.

Ashley: Thanks, Linzy.

Linzy: In my conversation with Ashley today, there was… in the back of my mind there was like some sort of image or metaphor that I was never able to really pull forward and articulate. But it is something about kind of stepping out on your own, right. And when you are stepping out on your own, whether it’s into private practice or into some sort of other kind of side business that maybe you’re even doing in addition to your private practice ’cause I know so many therapists have other gifts and talents… When you are stepping out of that kind of safety of having a salary, that often costs us in all these other ways, like Ashley talked about, you know, like so emotionally draining to be a teacher using up all of her energy, but it’s safe, right?

When we step outta that safety and we step into having our own businesses, it is scary. Like that is true. And I think that often we think that that’s something specific or, you know, deficient about us if we’re feeling really like anxious or scared in that process. But there really is something about stepping out on your own and taking up that space, and having to start to really own your gifts and be like, this is what I do. This is what it’s worth. You might not like it. You might say no to it or knowing what you do, but not having found your people yet. Like that building stage of really growing into, it’s kind of growing into your brand, being able to articulate what you’re offering and then having to like find your people and figure out how to price it. It is scary, and it’s hard and I kind of am getting this image in my head of like… I don’t know, like being out in the desert or a field, and you’re kinda like by yourself, but you’re also building something and that’s so powerful to build something that is yours. But also it’s kind of scary and exposing and lonely. And you know, I’m, I’m hearing that in what Ashley’s saying, like she has that spark. She knows what she offers and how it’s different from what other people are offering, and she’s like starting to be able to recognize and thinking about how to articulate that more. But it is also scary to kind of stake your ground and be like, this is me. This is what I do, this is what I’m good at. And folks might take it or leave it, and it takes time to find your people. And that’s true in all businesses, including private practice. So I’m really, I’m really excited for Ashley. She’s wonderful. So if you are looking for a podcast manager, reach out to her. I’m really excited and honored to be working with her and getting her support as she’s also building a business that is more and more her. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s super, super helpful for us if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can share what your favorite episode is or what you enjoy about the episodes. It is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of the conversation. Thanks for listening today. 

Laura Bull [00:00:00] There has to be some kind of synchronicity. There has to be certainly a clearing and repair process going on. If there’s any kind of relational tension to go into the group and imagine one can suppress that and not have it affect the system is silliness when the business needs our attention, but we’re in tension. There’s sort of this clearing the desk. Nothing productive is going to happen until you and I get back into right relatedness. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist the podcast, where we answer this question how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today on the podcast I have Steph and Laura. Steph and Laura are the founders, and they’re the clinical directions of Shoreline Counseling in British Columbia, which is a group practice. They’re also the hosts of the “A Not So Private Practice” podcast, where they share about their experiences with their business partnership, which we’re gonna be chatting about today. They talk about friendship and business and all things private practice. And they also mention including their love of budgeting. And Steph and Laura are currently in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. So I asked them to come onto the podcast, even though we’ve only been working together for a month, because they have a really impressive business partnership. And something that I mentioned in this episode and that I see over and over again. Well, two things. One is the idea that group practice is an easy way to make money. And so folks, if they’re busy and folx think, well, I guess I should just start a group practice because that’s a way to make more money. That’s not true, by the way. Group practice is actually pretty, complicated financially, to make it work. They’ll talk about that a little bit today. But number two is: I see folks forming partnerships with, you know, somebody that they work with, a friend, because they also think that that will be easier. And as Steph and Laura talk about today, business partnerships can be easier if you put in all the work to actually take care of that relationship. So today on the podcast, Steph and Laura are going to share about their own business partnership, how they have navigated conflicts, how they navigate conversations around money, and some of the challenges that still exist in their business partnership around money and how they are working on those. Here is my conversation with Steph and Laura. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:36] So, Stef and Laura, welcome to the podcast. 

Laura Bull [00:02:39] Thank you. 

Steph Davis [00:02:40] Thanks. Thanks so much for having us. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:41] Yeah, I’m really excited to have both of you on here. Something that I’m really excited about is you two have a business partnership, which I think is something that a lot of therapists, when they think about maybe expanding from solo practice into group practice or some sort of larger offering, often consider partnerships thinking that it’s kind of like it would be easier to start something with a friend. And you two have walked that path for a while now. Can you tell folks a little bit about the history of your business partnership to get us grounded and your history together? 

Steph Davis [00:03:15] Yeah, Laura, that’s a you question. Go ahead. 

Laura Bull [00:03:17] Yeah, sure. We probably have a bit of a unique beginning together because we, what’s not unique is we used to work in a different practice. I’m sure other folks have that experience, but that practice dissolved under the weight of some very serious allegations. And, Steph and I sort of became really bonded through the fire of that. Like, we became aware of a lot of the misconduct that was going on. And I became aware before she did, and she was actually the very first person I ever told. I was holding these really big secrets about someone who I had trusted for a long time, who had been, clinical supervisor to me for a long time and couldn’t quite reckon with how I had had what I thought was a meaningful clinical experience. I couldn’t reckon that with this information that was coming my way about what seemed like a totally contrary person. And so I held on to that information secretly for a while. And then, Steph, I think through a number of circumstances, I don’t know what it was. We hadn’t been friends for very long before, but we just kept having these little conversations. And something in my gut was just like, she’s the person. Like, If I’m going to tell anyone, she’s the person I’m going to tell. And it was a heavy weight. I knew that this information was going to come with lots of action. And so it wasn’t something I wanted to share lightly. It wasn’t something I really wanted to burden anyone with, to be honest. But I did tell Steph, and she and I did end up taking a lot of action, a lot of legal and movement action, to against some of these very serious things that we found out were going on. So we came together in this very dire season, certainly of my life, and she became this like very, very, very trustworthy person that, you know, she was going through her own emotional reactions, but she was doing a lot to support me as I was sort of unraveling everything that I had thought this ten year clinical career of mine had meant, what was still true, what wasn’t true. So that’s kind of we came together there and somewhere in the midst of us knowing we were fleeing, leaving this place, the last thing on my mind was starting a business. Literally the last, like probably even more, the last was being a leader, like leading other people. At that time, as I was reckoning with this leader who, just was not at all what I had thought they were. So this is sort of where Steph enters the story. 

Steph Davis [00:06:07] Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was a really awful time. And, you know, definitely more impactful emotionally for Laura than it was for me. So I had kind of the privilege of just sort of like holding a bit more of a container around, like, what does this mean for us? And there were a number of people in this practice that were affected by this. And, you know, to me, I was like, this might be a cool opportunity. Like, we have to leave here and leaving people behind that we’re in the dark about this, but would be affected by this, once it all came to light, didn’t feel right for us. And so, you know what initially started as like the pursuit of an office space for Laura and myself to maybe take on a student or two and to just kind of hide ourselves out and away from all of the unfolding drama. What started out as that, evolved into this idea that “Oh, we have to be a bit of a refuge”, like we have an opportunity here to support these other clinicians and this practice full of clients that we’re all going to be somehow impacted by this. And so that, you know, amidst all the conflicting, confusing emotion that was like what excited me, I was like, let’s do this thing. And Laura was like, oh, okay, I’m with you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:26] It kind of sounds like a I’m picturing like a couple things. I’m picturing like a phoenix rising situation. Right where it’s like this intense, what I’m heating from you, Laura, is like this intense loss and probably like betrayal and questioning of like what is real and identity, and with this relationship, with this person, who had done these things that you can’t reconcile with your experience of them. So there’s all of this pain, trauma, but then it’s also knowing that you need to get yourselves out of there. It’s like, well, we also need to take everybody else with us, which is a very therapist thing to do, by the way. 

Steph Davis [00:07:57] Yeah, totally. We were like foreseeing all the, you know, suffering. That was and that’s this thing unraveled. And it was, it was another layer of like in tolerability.

Linzy Bonham [00:08:08] Yeah, that’s really interesting because it’s you kind of stepped into leadership roles out of a crisis, really. It’s like there was a leadership. It sounds to me like there was a leadership void that was opened up by this person who, you know, had these allegations against them and was no longer going to be able to create this structure for these folks. So there was this void and it sounds like, Steph, what I’m hearing from you is like excitement to step into that void. That’s opportunity. And Laura, you were like, “okay, I guess I’ll come too”. Is that a fair summary?

Steph Davis [00:08:39] Yeah. Sort of. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:40] Okay. Sort of, sort of, yeah. What would you say was different about it? Tell me Steph. 

Steph Davis [00:08:44] I think that, I mean there was more of a power struggle than a void, for sure. At the time, you know, this person was not letting go of this lightly, like it was quite an intense time. I mean, we literally snuck out in the dead of night. We, like, went in there, took our stuff, secretly, moved all our clients over. The whole thing was really secretive. And then once we got going, I think, ok Laura, you tell me if this is right. I don’t know if it’s true, but there is more and more balance that was that we were finding with each other in this process. Where as much as it was emotional and hard and traumatic, you know, and so deeply impactful for Laura in so many ways. As the momentum for the business got going, she was the one pioneering a lot of stuff, like finding the space, getting it sorted. And there was I don’t know if it’s true to say, but it felt like we sort of kind of collided on this, like energetic path towards this future that we’re building, which is when things really started to click and take off, you know. Does that feel true Laura? I don’t know. 

Laura Bull [00:09:44] Yeah, I know it does. But I’m trying to find language actually for it, as you say it, because I had profound self-doubt around my ability to be a leader at that time because I was like, my modeling for leadership turns out to be really poor. And so I was really scared of accidentally repeating some of the really poor leadership qualities that I had been under for so long. And yeah, like once the decision was made. I mean, Linzy, you’re getting to know this part of me. I have this thing sometimes where I get excited about a new idea, and then I just don’t stop. Like when you get voice memos from me at 1:00 am because I’m like, I’m really excited about something like. That turned on whatever part of me, it clicked on. And I was like, if we’re going to do this, then we’re going to do it. Like we’re going to do it full, big, excellent. And so those little bubbles of life force, I think, started to move around my system, and I felt really sheltered. Steph was like, this is going to be great, we’re going to do it. And I was like, okay, I don’t know if it’s going to be great, but I feel you walking ahead of me. I feel a little sheltered by you, walking ahead of me. And within that shelter, now I got to be part of this. I want to see what we can do to make this possible. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:01] That’s actually a really good visual description of what I, you know, have been experienced of your dynamic. So we’ve been working together now for a month basically, you know, and you to have back pocket access. So we talk on WhatsApp by voice which is always like I find much more personal. You know, we get to know each other a lot faster. And that’s actually a really good description, Laura, because I have been trying to kind of articulate in my mind what is your dynamic? Because it isn’t just like a pure yin yang. It’s not that simple, the two of you. But yeah, I hear what you’re saying. It’s like Steph. Steph has that sturdiness and aheadness. And then in that, you can get really excited and thrive. 

Steph Davis [00:11:33] Yeah, I mean Linzy, well you’ve been on vacation over the course of the last week. I have been taken out by Laura’s intense desire to just push ahead. I’m like, I’ve been like thrown to the side. And she is now, like, officially leading the charge here. It’s up. It is reflective of what happens between us often. You know there is this constant back and forth around the vision and the logistics and the details and who’s taking the lead and who’s sheltering who. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:04] That’s so interesting. It brings to mind, to me a metaphor that a friend of mine, years ago when I was learning how to drive standard. I learned how to drive standard in my mid-20s, and I had two friends, two male friends who taught me how to drive standard, because I basically bought a standard vehicle and I did not know how to drive it. So it’s like my roommate and one of my friends who was a paramedic, they taught me how to drive standard at like 25 years old. And I remember one of my friends making this analogy about him and, and a different friend of ours, like one of them was kind of like that first gear that kind of like, gets you going and has that initial push. But then the other one was gear five, now you’re rolling. And that’s kind of what I’m hearing, you kind of shift gears between the two of you in terms of getting things going, but then keeping it going. But then, you know, maybe you slow down a little. So, there is this beautiful interplay between the two of you, which is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the podcast, even though we’ve only been working together for a month. Because I think so many folks step into business partnerships because they think it’s going to make things easier, right? That it’s kind of the easy option. But what I often see is that business partnerships are not successful and they don’t work and they fall apart. And folks who loved each other end up actually not only not in being business partners, but not being friends anymore. Right? It can be a great way to kill a friendship. And what I see in your relationship is something so much more mature than so many business relationships. So, you know, this is a podcast about money. I want to dig into that side of your relationship now that we have a sense of where you’ve come from. For the two of you, what have been some of your biggest money challenges or financial challenges of navigating being in a business partnership together and building something together, and also being these two kind of different people? 

Steph Davis [00:13:43] Yeah, I can kind of segue in just from what you were saying. I mean, I work with a lot of therapists in a coaching capacity, and my takeaway is that being a partnership is easier in a lot of ways. And the amount of work that Laura and I do on our relationship and on our partnership is almost as much as we do on our business. Because as you say, it won’t work otherwise. And our relationship is actually the thing that’s most important to us. And so when we’re out of sync or when we’re not working, things are kind of just like a fray, you know? And so, I think we have these two ways that we navigate. Kind of like two codes essentially, that we use to like navigate our relationship. And when it comes to our conversations about money, the first one is the thing that we live by, which is essentially that we refuse to hold resentment towards each other. We’re just going to have those hard conversations all the time. Whenever there’s resentment, we are going to sit down and we’re going to do that work with each other, because our friendship depends on it and our business depends on it. Laura, you want to frame it a little differently? 

Laura Bull [00:14:55] Yeah. I mean, I lead a lot of groups. I got a lot of training from a lot of brilliant group therapists early in my career. And one of the things I sort of live by is that if I always co-lead, I rarely lead on my own. But if the two group leaders are in relational tension, the group will be in tension. It’s a systems approach, essentially. And so what I was taught from the get go is the leaders have to be, there has to be some kind of synchronicity. There has to be certainly a clearing and repair process going on if there’s any kind of relational tension, because to go into the group and imagine one can suppress that and not have it affect the system is silliness. And so Steph and I, we know that, when the business needs our attention but we’re in tension. There’s sort of this clearing the desk, just shove all the papers off the desk because nothing productive is going to happen until you and I get back into right relatedness. So I think we prioritize that mostly because we really like each other and because the thing that would be the most soul-crushing is if our friendship breaks down here. And we sort of joke that we’re more legally bound than we are to our spouses. That’s actually not a joke. That’s actually true. 

Steph Davis [00:16:12] Yeah, yeah. 

Laura Bull [00:16:13] It’d be harder to get out of our arrangement than the spousal arrangements. So there’s a lot of good reason to work on it, but also, like, she’s just so important to me. I don’t care as much about the business breaking down as this friendship breaking down. And I think the business benefits greatly from that.

Steph Davis [00:16:34] Yeah. We care so deeply about each other that we’re always working on that. First and foremost, you know. 

Laura Bull [00:16:41] So, money though. The hardest thing for sure is resentment, which Steph has already spoken to. And resentment shows up the most because we’re equal partners in terms of our corporation documentations, but we don’t do equal amounts of work. And so reckoning that over the years, I think you’d agree, Steph has been definitely the most challenging. And I have spent many nights over the last five years talking to my husband, being like, oh my God, I know it’s not fair. What if she resents me? And really I’m saying, like, what if our friendship ends then we never make it back? But that’s the thing that feels the most scary to me is what if we can’t work it out? What if this resentment grows? What if she walks away feeling bitter at me? And I would hate that. And so that really fuels these: what are we going to do? What are we going to do about the inequalities in our partnership? 

Steph Davis [00:17:35] Yeah, I mean, the most glaring example. So I had said, there are two codes that we live by. And the second one is that we promised each other that we would not allow the business to stop us from doing what we need to do in our lives. And that we would be, you know, on board to support each other with however our lives unfolded and wouldn’t let the business stand in the way. This is the best example of how this inequity has shown up over the years. Was it two years ago? Three years ago? Two years ago, Laura decided to have another baby and we were three years into the practice or two years into the practice, and we were in the midst of opening a second location. I generally carry more of the administrative burden of the practice to start with, and that just became tenfold when Laura went on maternity leave. And we’re renovating and opening a second office and trying to keep this office afloat. And it was it was a lot. And there were a lot of resentment conversations and a lot of money conversations around how we were going to make this equitable, financially so that we could reckon some of the resentment and repair what needed to be repaired. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:47] And with that, did you figure it out? Have you figured out how to address that inequity or make it equitable, make it fair? Laura’s not just had a maternity leave, but also as a mother to three kiddos, right? So lots of family demands there. What have you figured out? 

Laura Bull [00:19:06] Okay. We didn’t figure it out. I think is the honest truth on my mat leave. We had lots of plans about how we could make it equitable and they didn’t come to fruition. Lots of plans about how we could pay Steph differently than me during that time. Then we had a great idea and we felt we couldn’t see it through because we couldn’t figure out how to make the money work at the time. And that was, I mean, it was terrible for us. I would have loved nothing more than for Steph to be paid and for it to be like, “okay, great, phew, we found a way to manage this”. And then she didn’t get paid for that time, not for the extra time she was doing. That was terrible between us. It has been a hard topic for years between us. As many times as we’ve circled back around and given space to air our different feelings about it. It’s more in the present that we have some irons in the fire around how we’re going to resolve this sort of unequal sweat equity in our past. We have some pretty good ideas about it now  I think. But, truth be told, it’s been a couple of years of that not really being resolved, it being a painful point in our business history. 

Steph Davis [00:20:25] Yeah, and I mean, I think that though it hasn’t been resolved, it also hasn’t been ignored, which is, I think, what makes part of our partnership so unique and special in that way is that we have talked this thing to death. We are both very aware of the impact that this has had on me, the impact that it’s having on Laura, this sort of like dark, kind of cloud that hangs around sometimes when this topic comes up and we’re trying to figure out how to make things equitable. And though we haven’t arrived at a solution, I think that the way that we address it, and the way that we hold space for it, and the way that we don’t avoid it or dismiss it makes it more tolerable. It doesn’t create this barrier in our relationship where we can’t move forward on anything because we’re so stuck in this place. It’s like our hope kind of has always been that there’ll be some sort of way that this will end up being more clear and coming to a resolution. And whenever we think we have an idea, we bat it around and recently it’s gotten a lot more traction. But I think that is a really unique part of what makes our relationship work so well and is so special is that we don’t shy away from those conversations, even if we can’t resolve them. We just tolerate how uncomfortable that is and table it and move on. 

Laura Bull [00:21:40] Yeah, I mean, I think I was hearing Doctor Becky. You know her? She’s a great parenting… 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:45] I do know her, not personally, to be clear, I do not know Doctor Becky personally. I listen to her content. Yes. 

Laura Bull [00:21:51] She was describing rapture as when two people are fully in their experiences and neither of them can put it aside to hear. Whereas repair is when someone can put their experience aside and say, okay, I really want to understand what was going on for you there, tell me more. And I think Steph and I do that well, even when we can’t resolve it practically, I think we have the benefit of our therapist skills, and with relative ease you’re able to say, just tell me how this is for you. Tell me how bad, tell me how painful, tell me how bitter, tell me how used you feel. And, with relative ease can sort of hold that without interrupting with, but this or explanations or all those tempting things to do when things get difficult. So I know that has been the good enough that’s carried us through until we could find practical solutions. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:43] Yeah. Well, and listening to you, something that strikes me is you are both so brave, first of all. Having these hard conversations all the fucking time by the sounds of it, right? And that takes bravery because like, I know for myself as somebody who comes from a history of kind of people pleasing, fear of conflict. What you are doing can be really scary. It can be scary to voice things that you fear might hurt the relationship or create conflict. And what I’m hearing is these are skills that you’ve really used with each other. I don’t know if you’ve honed them with each other, if there’s been growth in this, or if these are skills that you both already had. But it sounds like they really are a foundational part of your relationship. And as you say, just talking about it, which makes you think about marriage. I remember hearing a friend say that her parents talked about how in marriage, sometimes you have a bad decade, right? And we don’t necessarily think about that when you’re young. You don’t think that a relationship can be that long and you can be like, oh, yeah, the 70s were kind of hard for us. That was kind of a bad time. But the 80s were great. But that’s what I’m hearing from you two. There is this kind of, still a bit of a cloud, we still haven’t figured this thing out, but there’s also this hope of like, but we are going to, or we are working on it and we are like keeping it on the table. It’s not being buried or avoided. 

Laura Bull [00:23:53] Yes. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:54] Which is so again, the word that comes to mind for me is mature. But what I’m also hearing is like, you two have so honed your emotional skills and your emotional intelligence around your business partnership, being leaders, how your relationship impacts your team. And now I know some of the work that you’re doing is figuring out this practical part, right? By like digging into the numbers in a different way to see how can you actually practically solve this problem. And, you know, it strikes me that in financial leadership, you need both, right?  You have the first thing in spades. And now as a team together, you’re working on the second thing, which is actually figuring out the numbers and how do we make the numbers work so there can be some compensation, reparation, recognition of the inequity that’s been there. 

Steph Davis [00:24:39] Totally. I mean, Laura, gosh, when we get that solved, what are we going to talk about?

Laura Bull [00:24:46] Maybe not work stuff. 

Steph Davis [00:24:48] Oh yeah, maybe not work stuff. That is the part of our relationship that’s probably fallen off the most. We get it in intense 20 or 30-minute to two-hour windows where we’re like, it’s only personal time right now, go! Than we go right back to it. Six weeks later, it’s like how did that things play out that we talked about for 20 minutes? 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:10] Yeah. You’ll open up more space to be friends. And then also I think too, to just expand and think about what are those next level things for the both of you. Right? Like how can the business be supporting and nurturing you in other ways? Now you’ll have different problems, but they’ll hopefully be funnier Problems. Then this kind of like past peace that is yet to be reconciled. 

Laura Bull [00:25:28] Yes. Totally.

Linzy Bonham [00:25:30] So for folks who are listening, who might be considering starting a business partnership, maybe they’re in a similar situation with you where they’re in like a group practice where it’s like this, ugh, I don’t want to be here. I want to run something better. And I have this friend who I want to run it with. Or maybe people who’ve already started into a business partnership because often these things kind of start accidentally, as we know, what would be your advice to people to have a functional partnership like you do?

Laura Bull [00:25:54] To begin with, I would say , you’re a therapist and you’re equipped with tons of helpful communication and listening skills, and they are direly needed in a business partnership. This is not a different kind of relationship. This is another human relationship. So use all the great skills that you already have, and it has served us well to make this commitment to each other, if there’s resentment that we will bring it up relatively quickly. I know I do a background process around my resentment first. I am usually triggered initially and have big reactions, and so I do a hold sorting to kind of get my adult voice online and sort out, okay, what young part of me might be reacting here. And what’s the fear? And can I soothe and meet that fear internally first and sort of get stabilized in my adult self, and then go to Steph and say, here’s the thing that I think has felt scary or icky or concerning to me. And so I would say, don’t put your therapeutic skills to the side thinking this is a different kind of relationship. It’s really important to do really excellent communication. And don’t ignore resentment. It is like the poison that will take the whole thing down if it doesn’t get addressed in a very timely way. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:17] Absolutely. Yeah, and Steph? 

Steph Davis [00:27:19] Yeah, I mean I haven’t been in therapy as long as Laura has. I was a teacher prior to. So when we started this, I was a lot younger in my career and in my kind of development of all of these skills as she was. It was a steep learning curve for me at first. We were dealing with so much intensity and working on those skills myself was such an important part of this process for me in therapy and even in my other relationships and in different ways. Because it felt it was sort of just like, oh, you got to like shit or get off the pot here. You got to figure this out and speed up the learning process in terms of communication and the things that you’re learning about relationships. So that I could develop this kind of background process so I could get more clear on what was going on for me also. And then I’ve always had a harder time communicating where I’m at to Laura than she’s had to me. It’s just not as natural for me. And so it takes a lot of work on my end. And I can’t, I think early on in our relationship, I saw her skills as so much more advanced than mine that I relied a lot more on her to do that work. And now, I’ve come to learn over the years that that’s not equitable to our relationship. And so I spent a lot of time doing a lot of the work on my own so that I can show up in this relationship in the way that we’ve committed to. So that we can have this dynamic, that we have that, really when we are both in connection it just hums. It’s great. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:51] Yeah. And I think there’s so much wisdom there. Steph in terms of how much of our own growth we have to do to really show up as leaders. Right. And to really show up as our best selves, like in these business relationships. And I know for a year or two, I saw a therapist who also had a business background, and he would charge me for executive coaching because like, so much of what was coming up was all of these kinds of things about my business. Your business brings it all to the surface, right? Like having to show up, having hard conversations, having to let people go, having people be mean to you, like all of these things. There’s just endless opportunity. And again, I think there’s so much maturity there, in just owning, okay, I gotta spend a lot of time in therapy to figure out how to how to show up the way that I want to show up. I think it’s easy to want to skip that work, and be like, no, no, this is business. It is uncomfortable

Steph Davis [00:29:42] For sure, it is uncomfortable. And yeah, oh, I just want to focus on the business. And the truth is that the way, I mean, we lead a team of 26 people. So we don’t have a choice but to be in sync with each other. And that just involves more work than, to your point, I think that people really probably are consciously aware of when they imagine going into a partnership. It is the same kind of work I do in my marriage. Right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:07] Exactly. And that’s why I say, earlier, Steph, you made a comment that business partnerships are easier and I think they’re easier when they work. Right? I saw a newspaper headline the other day from Jessica Grose, who writes for The New York Times. I read her column every week and she said, basically, good marriages are good. Bad marriages are, well, bad. Right? Like I was talking about this kind of trend, this idea that people aren’t getting married anymore. And it’s like people get married if they can find a great person and build a great relationship. But if you’re in a bad marriage, it’s worse than being on your own, right? And so what I’m hearing is you two have managed to put in the work to make it so that it’s an easier, better option through all the work that you’ve been doing. 

Laura Bull [00:30:42] Yeah, I think that’s probably very true, that it would be much harder if it was a bad relationship. 

Steph Davis [00:30:48] That’s right. I don’t know if I would have survived, you know? 

Laura Bull [00:30:52] Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:55] So Steph and Laura, if folks want to hear more from you, which I suspect they do, because I know I do, whenever I talk to you. I’m so impressed by the two of you. Can you tell folks where to find you? Tell them about your podcast. 

Steph Davis [00:31:08] Yeah, we have a podcast. You can listen anywhere you listen to your podcast. It’s called “A not so private practice”. You can find us on social at “A not so private practice”. And, the group practice, we run Shoreline Counseling. You can find us at shorelinecounselling.ca or at Shoreline Counseling on Social. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:25] Thank you so much Steph and Laura, for coming on the podcast today. 

Steph Davis [00:31:28] Awesome. Thanks for having us Linzy.

Linzy Bonham [00:31:43] I so appreciate Steph and Laura coming on the podcast today. I am consistently impressed by both of them. They’re just very thoughtful, insightful, emotionally intelligent women. And as you could hear during the conversation as they described and you can even hear it happening in real time, is like they are not afraid to have hard conversations. And, you know, as somebody who is personally a conflict adverse, I so admire and appreciate that. But also as business partners, it’s so invaluable to them to have those skills and to be able to navigate it. As we talked about today, they’re such a shining example of what happens when you bring your emotional intelligence and all those therapeutic skills, that we’re teaching other people all the time, those of us who are mental health therapists. When you bring those skills into your business partnership, this is what’s possible, right? Is you can actually have a healthy, sturdy relationship that allows both of you to thrive. You can use your complementary skill sets. But also, as they talked about today, there’s those practical pieces which now they’re working on and we’re working on together, and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners to figure out how to make the money work, to actually address the financial inequity between the two of them. And make sure that they actually resolve this issue not just by talking about it, but financially addressing it. So I’m so excited for them that they are bringing this solid foundation, these skills that they have, this love for each other, their love and respect for each other, so apparent and now they’re bringing that skill set into learning about the actual practicalities of how the money is working in their group practice. So that they can make the money flow in a way that supports both of them and recognizes the sweat equity that they’ve each put in, which is not an equal amount. So I’m so appreciative to Steph and Laura for coming on the podcast today. And as they mentioned, you can check out their podcast, A not so Private Practice podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you are a group practice owner and you want some resources on how to start making money working for you and your group practice, I have a free guide called How to Stop Feeling Overworked and Underpaid in Your Group Practice. This is a guide that’s all about empowering group practice owners to feel calm and in control of their finances. In the guide, you’re going to learn about your money story and how it’s showing up in the relationship you have with money, as an individual, as a clinician, and as a group practice owner. You’re going to learn the four keys to becoming the empowered financial leader of your group practice, and you’re going to learn about the CFO, those chief financial officer skills that you need to create a healthy, sustainable private practice that will support you, your team and your community for years to come. So the link for that guide is in the show notes. It’s How to Stop Feeling Overworked and Underpaid in your Group Practice. You can grab that guide, group practice owners and get started on the same path that Steph and Laura are walking. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Carly [00:00:02] And the imposter syndrome kicks in. So I always say it’s a really good sign if what you’re doing already exists and nobody can do what you do, how you do it, everybody does it differently, everybody has their own story. Like 90% of us are our own ideal clients, which is why self-disclosure in coaching is such a beautiful thing, because people are like, wow, she gets it.  

Linzy [00:00:30] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is Carly Hill. Carly Hill is a business mentor for therapists, helping them outgrow the office and add online coaching for added revenue stream. This is obviously a topic that I know well, having lived it myself. So it’s great to today having Carly on. She helps clinicians make more money, earn back their freedom and flexibility, all while protecting their license. So today we got into that topic of license. How do you make sure that you protect your license? That’s something I hear again and again, and that I know I always have a little bit of hypervigilance come up when I hear folks starting to talk about offering coaching. Making sure you get the right things in place to protect your license. We talked about perfectionism, how to actually just get stuff out into the world. We talk about some of the barriers to moving into coaching for therapists, and importantly, the difference between therapy and coaching. How do we distinguish between these things? How do we know when we’re doing one or doing the other? So much to talk about here. Great conversation with Carly today. We’ve definitely walked the same road in terms of moving from therapy into the coaching space and just like putting things out into the world. There’s lots of gems here for people who are considering adding coaching to the way that you support the folks who you love to serve. Here’s Carly Hill. So, Carly, welcome to the podcast. 

Carly [00:02:23] Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:02:24] Yeah, I’m excited to have you. You know, what you teach and talk about is something that I think is on many therapists’ minds, like something that I find with therapists that I support is once they get kind of their financial stuff in order, and they’re less stressed about therapy and money in their private practice. What folks often very quickly want to do is like, expand beyond like, what else is there? And that is where you come in. So can you talk a little bit about what you do and how you help therapists? 

Carly [00:02:54] Yeah, and I love that you said that because me personally, as a therapist, when I started my private practice like that was me. It’s like I got a glimpse and a taste of freedom and I’m like, well, what else is here for me? 

Linzy [00:03:05] Yeah, freedom is pretty great. Yeah. 

Carly [00:03:06] Yeah. So it’s all about right. Freedom. Flexibility. Security. So my M.O. is helping therapists add coaching. We do it ethically, legally. So we really focus on protecting your license because there’s a lot that goes into that. And it’s all about really kind of moving out of the 1 to 1 business model. It’s tapping into the group model, like how can we work smarter and leverage our time. So at this point, you know, especially if you have a private practice, you’ve been in the field for many, many years. You’re good at what you do and maybe you’re sick of repeating yourself. You want to impact more lives and, unapologetically, you want to make more money. So there’s many avenues to do that. But I have definitely found through my own experience that coaching is one of the many avenues that you can expand your revenue as a therapist. 

Linzy [00:04:00] Yes. Yeah. And something about therapists. I’ve been reflecting on this on my own relationship, from shifting from being a therapist to a coach. And, like, coming into this new year, I feel like I’m kind of fresh. I’m seeing my work with fresh eyes where I’m like, yeah, these are the conversations I used to have in private to some extent. Like, not the interventions, because I don’t use therapy interventions with my coaching clients, but like some of the ideas or the way that I talk or just my general skills, this is what I was doing behind closed doors before, one on one, and now I’m doing it in front of hundreds or thousands of people. Yeah, right. So it’s like that, like coming kind of like coming out of the therapy room and into the world is something that I think a lot of therapists are really curious about. And I’m curious, like you mentioned, that piece about protecting licensure, and I’d love to start there, because that’s always something when folks talk to me about coaching is I’m like, make sure you understand your license restrictions in your state. From me, like from the financial perspective, I’m like set up two different bank accounts if there needs to be any separation and make sure it’s really legally distinct. What is like the general guideline for therapists, because something that I see therapists have anxiety about, and understandably so, is are they going to be accidentally practicing therapy as coaching? And can they hurt their license? So like speak to that fear because it’s, I think, a legitimate fear that therapists have about switching or stepping into some coaching on the side. 

Carly [00:05:20] Yeah, it definitely is. So the best advice I can give is separate everything. Separate, separate, separate. So you want to have a separate business entity. So if you have your private practice and it’s an LLC, separate coaching LLC, separate bank accounts, we don’t want to be taking in revenue in our private practice, where we’re only licensed in X state. When you can see clients nationwide, worldwide, and you will, that’s going to be a red flag, right? Even for accounting purposes and doing taxes, it’s just going to be a messy headache if you have everything in the same place anyways. Right. So separate LLC, separate bank account, separate paperwork. So your coaching contract is very, very important. And you are still held to your ethics. So mandated reporting, informed consent, that needs to be on your coaching contract that you’re providing to clients. So those are the main things where people get caught up is like marketing. Right. And do I need to have two Instagram handles and two websites and two Facebooks and all of these things. Right. And so that’s not black and white. It’s not illegal to have both coaching and therapy on one website, but we don’t want our clients to be confused. Our clients still get to choose whether they want therapy or coaching. I mean, ultimately they can, but we need to use our clinical discernment on what are they needing? Like are they needing to be treated for medical necessity or is it this more situational, non-clinical, less severe problem? So although the stigma has gotten better, I feel like with therapy, some people could only fathom getting help under the umbrella of coaching when in reality they really need therapy. So you kind of have like a segway on your therapy website that goes to your coaching, or you have a disclaimer that, like, although, you know, coaching is similar in nature to psychotherapy, these are the differences. And hopefully you would get them on a consult call before they go one way or another anyways. And you can use your clinical discernment. 

Linzy [00:07:40] Yeah. And that’s a really good point to be aware of. I haven’t completely thought about that of like that path. Right. Like if you have, even if you have a couple different brands that you’re working under, when somebody comes to you, making sure that they’re going in the right door, right. Also for just your ethical obligation, as you say, like if someone is suffering from severe depression or like there’s very active trauma symptomology, you don’t want to be selling them this like beautiful coaching package where, you know, mostly you’re just going to be doing like fun, surface, future-oriented, like planning kind of stuff when what they really need is like deep therapy, right? And like trauma reprocessing. And this is somewhere where I do see like some blurriness in the coaching world. Do you, do you see that too? 

Carly [00:08:22] Like it gets confusing and there’s so many nuances to it because- and this is why I always say the easiest definition really is like therapy is treating medical necessity. Coaching is working with that more situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. It’s about the severity of the issue that you’re treating at hand. Like there’s all these definitions. Like if you Google it, you’re probably going to be more confused on what the the actual differences between the coaching. And some definitions I really don’t agree with. Like such as like, you know, coaching is working on the future and therapy is working on the past. It’s like as a therapist and a coach, I know that you work on the past, present, and the future, whether you’re in a therapeutic relationship or you’re in a coaching relationship. And somebody could be meeting criteria, textbook, DSM and still be a fit for your coaching program. For example, I had a therapist term coach who had a coaching program to help women who have come out of DV relationships get back into the dating world and have confidence. So a lot of them actually were meeting criteria for PTSD. They had their own therapist and they had worked on or currently working on that, but her coaching program was very specific to confidence in the dating world. It was that situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. Does that make sense? 

Linzy [00:09:47] That makes so much sense. I mean, it’s a really good discernment. Like, this is a conversation that I actually had a lot with one of my coaches who worked for me in my course, Money Skills for Therapists, a couple of years ago. And, you know, she’s got all this rich clinical toolbox. She’s a psychologist, but also doing some coaching for me in the course. And like we had a lot of conversations kind of like philosophical and practical of like what is coaching and what is therapy and how do you know when you’re doing each. And like my answer for her, and I’m curious about your answer for yourself. I was a trauma therapist, so that was my specialty. I don’t practice therapy anymore. I now just fully do this, you know, financial coaching and business coaching. But for me, there’s a very specific way that my brain is working when I’m doing therapy. I’m really like, I’m going into the pain. That’s really the work I was mostly doing with folks, right? As I was doing trauma reprocessing. So it’s like we, you know, hear that there’s a negative experience and we’re going right into that experience and we’re doing all of the resourcing to stay with that. And like everything is about getting to the root and resolving the root. And that’s very specific for me in my body. I know what that feels like when I’m in that space with somebody and when I’m doing that, and there’s this huge toolbox that I used to do that work, right, in this huge filing cabinet of trainings that my brain is like, you know, going through to, like, pull out all the information you got. It’s very like complex work. It feels very different than the coaching work that I do. Right? Coaching work I find for me is very light in my body. It’s fun. It’s very- I’m very quick to use, like personal disclosure, which I never, ever, ever did as a therapist. As a therapist, I was so boundary, so aware of like my own story, having, you know, no place in the clinical room the vast majority of the time. In coaching, I’m aware that folks want to know what I do and what I’ve done because they want to get the results that I’ve gotten, right. So and when I see pain now in one of my students, which of course everybody has trauma, it’s like, that’s a great thing for you to take to your therapist. Like, I don’t even like, you know, like we look at it from like 15ft away and we’re like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you feel this way because of this experience you had, you know, are you working with a therapist? That’s great. Right. Yeah. Like it just like, I’m having a very different relationship to like, where I’m focusing energy and attention. I’m curious like, yeah, your reflections on that as a, you know, discerning between the two and what your own relationship is, playing these two different roles: coaching and therapy. 

Carly [00:12:14] There’s so much that I can say. So I feel like we get weird sometimes about like, what am I doing? Like am I, quote-unquote, doing therapy, or am I doing coaching, right? And again, it goes back to, you know, are you treating medical necessity or not. But we think that like, we can’t use all of our clinical modalities and training and schooling and background when we all of a sudden put on our bonus identity of being a coach. And the reality is you can use CBT, DBT, EMDR, literally we have trainings every letter of the alphabet. Right. So like and there is like you could Google like CBT coaching certification. When we hear these things we think therapy especially EMDR as a trauma therapist. Right. But you’re probably thinking that in your head like now how the hell would you use EMDR. 

Linzy [00:13:10] I am I am. 

Carly [00:13:11] I had a client who did peak performance coaching with athletes to help them out, beat their competition, and she was doing EMDR with them. It was that very situational, non-clinical, less severe problem. So again, it’s just like what is the the issue at hand that you’re treating? You can absolutely use all of your clinical modalities in the coaching setting. And also I think we get tied up with the word coach sometimes. And even just because we work so hard for our license, why do we want to call ourselves a coach? It could feel like a downgrade. It’s like, I don’t want to be like all those other coaches on the internet. This is the whole thing, right? 

Linzy [00:13:56] Oh yeah. 

Carly [00:13:57] But as a coach, it’s kind of like you’re a teacher, like you’re doing psychoeducation that you already do in therapy. Anyways, so I had a massive realization when I had my private practice that I was actually coaching the whole entire time. I wasn’t even doing therapy. I just thought I was because I was therapist by trade. But when I really started studying, like, what is the difference between therapy and coaching? I recognized that I was doing coaching. I was helping women who were not meeting medical necessity. It was like those that I would give adjustment disorder or anxiety unspecified, and I was doing a lot of psychoeducation with them. I was teaching them. So I find that often times therapists are doing that too, but they’re limiting themselves. It’s really hard to go into treating medical necessity, even if you tried. When you’re creating a curriculum like a recorded course anyways, to help them get from A to B, problem to solution, and you’re taking them through like the 6 to 8 milestones to get from problem to solution. It’s like you’re a teacher. 

Linzy [00:15:05] Yeah, that language really resonates with me a lot. Yeah, a lot of what you’re saying it’s pinging. I have many thoughts about the coaching world, kind of having stepped into it in a way, kind of accidentally, you know, like just wanting to do certain work. You’re like, oh, I guess this is what I am. Yeah. But that educator distinction is something that I’ve noticed myself is like I identify largely as a teacher and an educator, like a financial educator. I’m doing like, popular education around finances, right? I’m taking something that can be very difficult to understand and intimidating and making it accessible. Right. But also clicking it into this specific space of this niche that I serve, which is therapists. So folks who are very emotionally intelligent and need that mixed in with their information, right. Like we need that relational and emotional aspect. But that’s such a helpful piece to pull out because I know for me that’s when I like, really know I’m coaching like I’m teaching, right? Like I don’t have the space in my programs or even my one on ones to, like, really do any kind of medical treatment. Right? Like the container is not set up to support that, like actual medical treatment that I used to do for folks took months and months and months or years and years and years of focused work together, of coming back to the same thing and getting stuck with that thing and looking at it from a different angle and like there was some amount of psychoeducation that I was doing, but really I was doing trauma processing. I was like, looks very different now. Education is such a big part of what I do, and I love you pointing that out, because I think that that’s often missed in terms of coaching, that that is a lot of we do is we are teaching, right, like we’re teaching the framework that we’ve developed, but we’re also just teaching general information in a way that’s going to get somebody a certain result. 

Carly [00:16:39] Yeah. Or even like a faster result. Like I think there’s such a beauty in coaching, not only for the therapist but for the client. It’s truly a win when like, you know, you get to leverage your time and your skills and your knowledge and technology as a therapist, which is a beautiful thing, but also not everybody needs therapy. And if they’re not needing to be treated for medical necessity, they could come into your very specific three month educational curriculum program and get faster, easier results with this proven step by step system, even on their own time, because everything’s recorded and they can listen to it when they’re doing other things. It’s such a win for them. Like it can save them years of their life, thousands of dollars. It’s just a win win. 

Linzy [00:17:32] Yeah, absolutely. Certainly. That’s been my experience with it. And what I found too, is the impact that I can have by packaging up the process that I’ve developed. Right. And by like building in these specific supports means that I’ve had like 500 folks go through my program. Yeah. And some of them I know because they show up to a lot of calls and I know exactly who they are. Some of them showed up to literally no calls and just did the work on their own. But there’s no way that I could have helped 500 clients individually in that same timeframe, right? Like it’s just such a bigger impact that you’re able to have. What do you see are some of the biggest barriers that therapists have to the idea of stepping into coaching or owning the fact that they might want to step into coaching? 

Carly [00:18:13] Well, definitely the protecting licensing that we already covered, because therapists just think it’s like too daunting. I always joke like they’re afraid, like the ethical gods are going to come after them. Like it’s not an excuse to not add coaching. There’s steps that you need to take. It’s not that difficult to keep everything separate. If you have a blueprint in front of you, somebody is giving you the paperwork that you need. Like your gut. Nicheing is the second biggest barrier. I think we’re used to solving every problem under the sun and morphing into whoever’s in front of us. That when you go to create a curriculum for a very specific population with a very specific problem, you’re like, whoa, what do I even choose? And something that’s marketable and viable as well, not just like a nice to have or an addition to somebody’s life, or you’re going to fall on deaf ears, right? Like you want to sell something that’s going to sell like hotcakes, right? If this is really going to be an additional sustainable revenue stream. 

Linzy [00:19:15] Yes. And that is a helpful thing for folks to think about is, like with business, you know, you need to sell something that people want or need, right? So like really taking the time to identify, am I selling something that people are asking for? Or if they’re not asking for it, how do I help to educate them so they do ask for it? Because that’s something about my course and my audience is they don’t know what their problem is, but they know what their pain is. So a lot of the marketing that we have to do is around educating folks. You feel this way because of this and like, this is the solution, right? But we’re actually having to do a lot of education with folks before they understand, like, oh, the problem is that I don’t know a financial system and that I have a bad relationship with money and that can be fixed, and Linzy can help me fix it, like we’re walking them all the way along the marketing process. Whereas for other types of niches, people might know that they have the problem and they’re going to come looking for the solution, right? But you do need to be selling something that people want and need, asking people to figure out what that is, because that is something that I do sometimes see a mistake that therapists make. And I’m curious what mistakes you see them make as they try to step into coaching. As I see folks spend so much time building something, but they haven’t really validated it or built an audience, and then there’s nobody to sell it to. And they’ve done all this work, but there’s no appetite for it. 

Carly [00:20:28] Yeah. So good. Well-spoken. The level of buyer’s awareness, you know, what you’re speaking to, is incredibly important, which is why market research is important. When most people go to do market research and they’re googling, you know, other coaches that exist or they’re assessing their needs from potential clients and prospects, if they get scared that, well, if this already exists and all of these coaches are already doing this, why me? Who am I to do this? Why wouldn’t they just go read X, Y, and Z book or go to Sally GuruPants, you know, mentor who is already killing it, and then they don’t do it. And the imposter syndrome kicks in. So I always say it’s a really good sign if what you’re doing already exists and nobody can do what you do, how you do it, everybody does it differently. Everybody has their own story. Like 90% of us are our own ideal clients, which is why self-disclosure in coaching is such a beautiful thing, because people are like, wow, she gets it. Yes, right. 

Linzy [00:21:32] And I really love you saying that because I’ve sometimes heard from my own students who again, it’s like they go through the course and then at the end they’re like, I actually have this dream to like, do something else, right? You can start to own I want more. But what I have folks say to me sometimes is they’re like, but I don’t have something like super unique to do, like, like you do. And I’m like, no, no, no, don’t do what I did. Like the fact that for my business, I built something that didn’t exist before, that I don’t have a direct competitor, is really rare and like, not actually what you want. What you actually want is exactly what you’re talking about. Where like there is already an audience for it. There’s already other people doing it because there’s demand for it. Right? Like my business is harder because I don’t have competition, because, as I said, I have to educate everybody about what their problem is before they can even think about think about working with me at some point. Right. And so, yeah, and seeing other people doing what you do is a good sign. 

Carly [00:22:27] Yeah. And it works. So just to get to your point and then your business being sustainable, right. Educating them on the different level of buyer’s awareness. So it may be a longer process from when they come into your world and become a paying client. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work right. But you are willing to take the chance and you are willing to try. If I could take a guess, probably because of your own story, right? And maybe lacking what you basically created and had to learn the hard way yourself, which is typically like why 90% of us are our own ideal clients, right? Exactly. 

Linzy [00:23:02] Yeah. 

Carly [00:23:03] But you mentioned you see a lot of people, like, create this beautiful thing and then they go to market and sell it and it falls on deaf ears. So I always recommend to sell before you create. Create it as you go. And this is really daunting for the Type-A people. But this is what you want to do, right? So you need to be in integrity, selling something that you haven’t yet created. So you need to know, like what are the deliverables and what you’re offering? What are your bonuses? What are your guarantees? How long is it? What is the investment? All of that stuff. But if you’re creating a recorded course, for example, then you know you have week one, maybe week two done while they come in. They’re watching week one while you’re recording week two or recording week three. So you have your outline, again, you’re in integrity, but you’re creating it as you go. And that’s really going to allow you to make it so much better anyways. Like, what if they ask you questions that week one that you forgot to add in week two, then you just go add them in. 

Linzy [00:24:03] That’s exactly how I built all my courses. Yeah. And as you say, it is a challenge for the Type-A amongst us. And like, I consider myself a recovering perfectionist, but this is the advice that I give folks when they ask me about like building something is like, sell it first. Again, exactly as you said. You know the path, like you know the general path you’re going to walk them down, you know the general skills or, you know, kind of the order of things that need to happen, but by actually building it as you go, you’re catering it to exactly who’s in your program. And it’s going to be better than you sitting alone in your office imagining somebody going through the process. So yeah, this is how I built my core course Money Skills for Therapists. I built it. It was a six week course and I built it one week at a time. It’s like I would run the call. My partner was helping me build it. We would run- I would run the call, we’d get off the call, I’d be like, okay, now I need to make seven videos. And he’d be like, okay. And we would just like, go for it and make it and have them posted by the next day. And 80% of that content is still the core of that course, because it was good and it remained good. And now just the other day, I went and started adding some more content and like tweaking things and improving and changing. But like that foundation is still the same. And I built Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which is my second level course. I just came out of six months of building that the exact same way. Yeah, right. You have no time to get in your own way when people are expecting lessons to drop, you know, in the next week. 

Carly [00:25:27] It’s the best way. And it’s such leveraged work. Right? And it’s such a breath of fresh air. And just like a huge accomplishment when you can look at all your recordings and you’re like, damn, I did that. I created this thing, this whole thing. Right? Yeah, I love that. 

Linzy [00:25:43] Yeah, totally. And then you can sell that thing over and over again. 

Carly [00:25:46] Yes you can. Yes, yes, it’s leveraged work. Yeah it is. So it’s kind of a short term pain for the long term gain. Right. Because it does – not gonna lie – let’s talk a little bit at the beginning when you’re like, oh no, sorry, I can’t, I’ll be in my recording studio and by recording studio you mean like sitting at your desk with your microphone. Okay. But it is like blinders until it’s complete. 

Linzy [00:26:09] Yeah. And I also like for myself, and I’m curious your expense with this. For me, I do also experience it as kind of the creative process, right, where it’s like it’s a lot of work, but I’m also in the flow, like I’m living it and I’m breathing it. And like sometimes I’ll. I started using deep work sessions when I was building Money Skills for Group Practice Owners where it’s like Fridays, that’s all I’m doing. I’m not answering emails, I’m not available. I don’t coach on Fridays. I’m just doing this. And sometimes I would spend two hours building a lesson and then I’m like, no it’s too specific and I’ll scrap it. But it’s like, I’m like in that like, you know, sometimes I make the joke like I’m an artist. I’m going to go into artist mode, which is when I’m doing things not well in advance and not super strategically, but I’m just going to go in the flow. But you create great stuff from that space, like it’s flow. You’re letting yourself get into a flow state because you have to, but also you’re like making it a priority so that you have the opportunity to. I’m curious about like your own experience with building things like this. 

Carly [00:27:05] I 100% agree. And if you can get out of your head into service as soon as possible, it’s going to benefit you tremendously. Because when you are launching something like you’re so focused and you’re wearing all of the hats on doing your market research and dialing in your messaging and doing social media posts and getting on sales calls and enrolling your first few clients into your program. Like you’re just doing all of these things and you do start to question or imposter syndrome comes in and it’s like, who’s going to buy this? Is anybody going to buy this? Like, if you can just put it out there and get your first couple clients and you can get into that state that you were just talking about the flow state where you’re recording, and then you look back on what you just created or you were sent back and you’re like, whoa, that was good. What I just said, like, mic drop for a second. So it really will help you have more momentum to keep selling and advertising, and then you have more confidence and conviction and what you’re even selling because you’re in flow and you’re looking at it and you’re like, that is good. And it just- the energy pulls through to your audience. 

Linzy [00:28:18] Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I’ve been talking in a few places this week about perfectionism, right. And how much that slows us down. I just did a presentation today in the group practice exchange community about financial perfectionism. I was just talking about on a call today. And like the phrase that always comes to mind for me around it is like, perfect is the enemy of done. Right? Like when we don’t make ourselves do it, when we don’t sometimes create that container. So you’re like, I just got to do it. And like, I’m going to say stuff. And then I’m like, damn, that was good. Which I had like sparring with myself fairly regularly. If I just make myself talk, I end up saying something, then I’m like, oh yeah, that’s what I meant. But I didn’t know it until I was saying it out loud. That’s my creative process. But if I don’t make myself do it, and if I think about it and if I want to make it perfect, sometimes it just doesn’t even happen. That thing just never materializes unless I give myself a bit of pressure and a deadline to make it happen. And if it’s not perfect, it doesn’t matter because you’re teaching and you’re going to like, get that feedback from your students and you’re going to tweak it, or you’re going to, like, have a conversation where you explain it, then you’re going to go back and add that to your video. But like you have created 95% of the finished product by doing that. 

Carly [00:29:22] And it’s always better than we think it is, even when we think it’s bad. Right? We’re just really hard on ourselves because we are those Type-A people. 

Linzy [00:29:29] So true. 

Carly [00:29:30] I use the 80/20 rule. This can be applied to multiple different things in business, right? But I say be 80% sure an move on. Yes. It’s 80% good enough and then you move on because you could just come back and you can redo it. But it’s like you got to keep the momentum flowing. 

Linzy [00:29:46] Yes. Yeah. And the 80/20 rule. Can you explain that for folks who are not familiar with it. 

Carly [00:29:50] I always say with marketing like 80% value, 20% hard promoting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that’s another way. 

Linzy [00:29:59] Yeah. And there’s that like diminishing returns piece. Right where it’s like the work that you do, it’s like you have like got it to 80%. That’s a huge difference. That last like ten hours of work is only going to make it that little tiny bit better, which is not worth it. Right? It’s much better to move on with your energy and build something else, something new. The term that we’ve been using this week in our own team is Just Ship It, which I think is from Seth Godin is my understanding where like a lot like that, just ship it, you just ship it. And I even found a little mailbox emoji that I’m starting to use with my team. Just ship it. It’s great. Good enough. Just ship it. Yeah, right. And like, just get it out into the world. Because chances are that like obsessing that we do and that like extra stuckness is in actually going to make it that much better. Sometimes it even makes it worse because we end up taking out something that we think is bad, but is actually quirky, and is why your students love you in the first place. 

Carly [00:30:48] 100% agree. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:50] So, Carly, for folks who want to get further into your world, can you tell them more about where to find you, where to follow you, what you offer? 

Carly [00:30:59] Yes, absolutely. So I would say the best place is my Facebook group, The Therapist to Coach Accelerator. There is like 50 plus free trainings in there. Just this past week I brought in an attorney to speak about protecting your license. So any of the folks who are listening who that is maybe a big barrier for them. They can learn about that in there. You can also follow me on Instagram, Carly Hill coaching or my website Carly Hill coaching.com. 

Linzy [00:31:23] Wonderful. Thank you. This is great food for thought. Wonderful to also talk to another therapist turned coach. And I know there’s lots of valuable stuff here for people who are considering making this transition. Thanks, Carly. 

Carly [00:31:34] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:31:49] I appreciated Carly’s distinction today between that, you know, medical necessity, treating folks out of medical necessity or doing this more- I don’t even know how she would describe it, but like she said, future-oriented, isn’t it? But, you know, not treating folks out of medical necessity and trying to get really clear on, you know, what is therapy, what is coaching, and making sure that folks come through, you know, the right door when they find you. There’s lots to consider in this space. And I noticed myself, I still have like a little bit of vigilance about it, but I’m so glad that folks like Carly are out there helping therapists think through what they’re doing, protecting your license, setting up things in a way that protects you, make sure that you’re acting ethically, and just owning what you have to offer the world. Because that’s the other thing that I see is that, you know, therapists, we tend to undervalue our skills and undervalue just how much we know and how much we’ve learned. And there’s so much opportunity to help folks far beyond the therapy room. If you can really step into your skills and own what you do, put it out in the world. And as Carly and I talked about, just ship it. Let yourself do it imperfectly. You can always clean it up later. So I appreciated Carly coming on the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you are interested in working with me and in experiencing my course that I’ve created, my offer that’s been out in the world, as I said on the episode today, that more than 500 students – I was just looking at our Teachable today. It says 533. We’ll take off like a few team members for that. So let’s say like 527 people have gone through Money Skills for Therapists so far. And I continue to have like amazing conversations with Money Skills for Therapists students every week, watching them like kick butt. So if you are curious about Money Skills for Therapists, the way to learn about it is through my masterclass, The 4-Step Framework to Getting Your Business Finances Totally in Order. I will put the link to that masterclass, in the show notes. You can check out that masterclass, learn about my framework, learn about the biggest mistakes that therapists make while trying to get their business finances in order and learn about Money Skills for Therapists and whether it would be the right container, the right support to help you feel calm and confident about your business finances. So link for that is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Erin [00:00:04] I agree with how it can feel like oxygen, because I can imagine myself, once I am in the space where- and maybe doing this budget rework and moving my money differently will help me feel like I have that breathing room, because right now it does not feel that way. 

Linzy [00:00:30] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists Podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today on the podcast – I’m really excited – we’re doing something for the first time, which is we have a coaching episode to share with you, which is with one of our listeners. So previously on the coaching episodes on the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, I have brought on current students or past students of Money Skills for Therapists. So they’re always folks that I’ve known to some extent, already from being in the course or sometimes that I’ve known really, really well. But this is the first time that we are bringing on a guest who’s a listener of the podcast. Our guest today is Erin Davis. She’s in private practice specializing in anxiety and OCD in a small town in North Carolina. She has got a podcast about OCD called Bossing Up Overcoming OCD, which she shares she got a sponsorship for in only three sessions. And in our conversation today, we talked about figuring out how to both make your money serve you and this question of whether or not she should raise her fee. So Erin shares that she’s in a small town in North Carolina, where her fee is already kind of at the high end of what folks tend to charge. So there’s this concern about raising her fee, but she has all these stressors of a credit card debt to pay down, building a home, she’s got three young boys who are in sports. And basically, how does she make the money work? What does she need to do? So today in our conversation, we dig into that question. We end up really looking at her numbers in a tangible way and coming up with a really clear path forward for how her money can serve her. Here’s my conversation with Erin Davis. So Erin, welcome to the podcast. 

Erin [00:02:35] Thank you, Linzy, for having me. I’m so excited to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:38] Yeah, I’m really excited to have you here. We were just talking off mic about how previously for coaching episodes on the podcast, I’ve always had students or grads. So like folks I’ve already known to some extent. This is our first time recording a coaching episode for the podcast with a listener, so we have not met before now, which is exciting. 

Erin [00:02:58] Right? And I have been following you for quite some time, and I listened to your private practice summit back in the fall. Oh yeah, that was fantastic. And I got linked up with other coaches and mentors there. And Aisha Shabazz is my business coach. 

Linzy [00:03:16] Oh, nice. Yeah. She’s been on the podcast before. 

Erin [00:03:17] Yes and I went back and actually relistened to that episode. I love both of you guys. 

Linzy [00:03:23] Wonderful. Well, I’m very excited to have you here. To dig in to your question for today. So, Erin, what do you want to focus our time on today together? 

Erin [00:03:32] Yes. Well, again, thank you for letting me come on the show because it’s been quite a ride for me in my journey. And where I am now, I think it is going to be very helpful to kind of get your expertise in the financial coaching. So my story started several years ago. I was in private practice for the first time. Now, I’ve been- I’ve had my graduate degree since 2011, but about 2 or 3 years ago was when I stepped out and did private practice on my own, and that was a very eye opening experience, and I burned myself out. Worked too much. I was not a good boss to myself, but the money was there, right? And then my husband and I decided, let’s get a change of pace in our life and let’s move back home to family in North Carolina. And that’s been a great move. Now, with that experience I had with private practice, I thought, I can’t work myself to this extent anymore and decided to take a salary job with a nonprofit, and it was wonderful. It was one of the best experiences I’ve had with an agency. Now, with that being said too, not everything lasts forever. And the contract went away. And there I was with a job loss in my mid-30s. I’m the sole breadwinner for my family. 

Linzy [00:05:00] Yes. Gotcha. Yep. 

Erin [00:05:01] Yes. And I’ve got three boys are really fell into, kind of a pit and a little bit of a crisis and thinking, what do I do next? Because I enjoy counseling. I love the field. And. But a lot of time, investment and energy into this work. And I was scared to go back into private practice because of the way it went before. So I decided that I would go into private practice, but I would be more mindful and intentional with my choices. Yes. Great, yes. So I feel like I have done a great job in honoring my values and my family needs this time around. But the complication that I have run into is our small town in North Carolina. It’s not one to really be known for paying premium therapy rates. So that creates a challenge. And just to put it in perspective, our county – countywide, all of the children are on free meals. 

Linzy [00:06:09] Okay. Yeah. So you’re not in a high income area by any means? 

Erin [00:06:13] Exactly. Okay. Especially compared to where we were living before. My current rate. It does meet my needs. If I don’t have any other additional expenses or what I’m facing right now, which is the credit card debt from the job loss, because I mean that really threw our plans, because being in a salary position, you expect that it’s going to be a safe job. Yes. Now I mean we have our personal emergency savings and that’s fine. But I think one of the other lessons I’ve learned is to have a business savings. 

Linzy [00:06:49] Yes, absolutely. I completely agree with you. Yeah. Having that business buffer is great. And so that sounds like a good learning, you know, that’s come out of this that you can incorporate into your practice moving forward. It sounds like this would be one of the goals is having that buffer in your practice this time around. 

Erin [00:07:04] Yes. And it seems like – and maybe that was something that I heard from your, one of your webinars was. Well, and I love your idea of profit first. And so I’m struggling with this balance of paying myself. Plus covering our family expenses plus aggressively paying down debt because it’s very uncomfortable to carry debt. 

Linzy [00:07:30] Yes. Okay. Yeah. So. Yeah. Because what I’m hearing is there’s multiple jobs that’s needing to come out of this money, which is not as much money as you used to make because you used to live somewhere where it was a higher income area. 

Erin [00:07:41] Yes. 

Linzy [00:07:42] Now your fee is 135. 

Erin [00:07:44] Correct. 

Linzy [00:07:45] So your fee is 135. And you have these different priorities of like paying down the debt, supporting your family, living. Yeah. What are other goals that, you know, you’re trying to meet with this money? 

Erin [00:07:55] We are building a home. We do have money set aside for that. But still, it would be nice to be able to provide more improvements because we’ve got goals of like, you know, we can do this step for now and then maybe in a few years we’ll add this other addition or this. 

Linzy [00:08:13] Right. 

Erin [00:08:14] I would really like to be able to contribute. Oh, like a pool, for example. 

Linzy [00:08:18] Yes. 

Erin [00:08:19] Okay. You know. Yeah. And I know that’s first world problems, but I’ve got three boys and they would love a pool. 

Linzy [00:08:25] Absolutely. 

Erin [00:08:26] Adults by the time I can. 

Linzy [00:08:28] Yeah I know. Yeah. It’s like that. And this is one of the things about having kids. And I see this too, is it’s like you’re at a stage of your career where you’re often still building and you’re paying down debt, but it’s like, this is your kid’s childhood now, right? They’re not gonna appreciate the pool so much when they’re 25. And you’re like, well, but we paid down all the debt and now we have a pool. Come over. And they’re gonna be like, mom, I’m an adult. I’ve got a life. A pool for a seven year old is Paradise. 

Erin [00:08:49] Exactly. Yeah. Okay. 

Linzy [00:08:50] Okay, good. Okay. So with these different jobs that your money has to do, I’m hearing there’s the debt paydown. And there’s emotional weight around that debt. 

Erin [00:08:58] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:08:59] There’s just your regular living supporting your family. Are you still the sole breadwinner of your family? 

Erin [00:09:04] Yes. Okay. My husband is primarily building the house like his full time project. 

Linzy [00:09:10] Right. So his job for your family is to build this house, which I’m sure is saving you a lot of money because contractors are very expensive. Yeah. So. Yeah, but that means that kind of his contribution to the family right now is in his labor and skills. He’s not bringing money in that you can turn into something else. 

Erin [00:09:24] Sort of. I will preface that and say that he is a veteran. And so we do. 

Linzy [00:09:30] Okay. 

Erin [00:09:30] There’s military benefit. 

Linzy [00:09:32] Great. Okay. So there is some income coming in for him. 

Erin [00:09:34] Yes. 

Linzy [00:09:35] Right. Okay. And then this ongoing project of building a home, you would like it to be more than, right now, the budget would allow. Like it’d be nice to add those things now. 

Erin [00:09:44] Right, right. Yes. All of my boys are in competitive sports. And so every time you turn around, they need a new bat or a uniform. 

Linzy [00:09:52] 100%, yes. My joke with my son. I have one son. And my joke, we’re Canadian, is that I just don’t want him to know that hockey exists. Like, I just want it to, like, never be on his radar. Because if he discovers hockey and if he’s good at hockey, that’s all my life and my weekends and my money for the next, like, 15 years. Yeah. So yes, it can be a big outlay. And similarly to what we’re talking about before though, like this is their one and only childhood, it sounds like this is something that’s important to you, right. Is having them have these experiences. So this is an important expense for your family right. Okay. So let’s zoom out then on numbers. And you had mentioned profit first. And I love that you mentioned that because I think that’s actually going to be a. A really good tool for us to use, to give you perspective, because what I’m hearing is there’s these competing priorities. All these things are important in their own way, right? There’s an emotional weight around the debt, which is going to have its own kind of urgency to wanting to get rid of that. But there’s only so much money coming in. Right. And you are the income earner for your family with your husband’s veteran benefits as well. 

Erin [00:10:50] Right, exactly. And I am trying to give myself grace and compassion and patience. We are as new business owners- because essentially I’m revamping this private practice. We all experience some level of expense upfront. So it’s technically like this is another do over because first time in my private practice, it was a slow transition of trading off. Let me do this warm handoff of my private practice slowly and then I’ll leave my group practice. But this time around it wasn’t. I mean, night and day like, oh no, I can’t go to work tomorrow. What am I going to do next?  

Linzy [00:11:31] There’s kind of the the parachute version of entering private practice where you’re leaving something and you have a parachute to ease you down. And then there’s the cliff diving version, which is what you’ve had to do. You got pushed off the cliff. I personally start businesses by jumping off cliffs. That’s how I make myself do things. But you got pushed off a cliff and now here you are. You have to make it work. Okay? Yes. So with your numbers, Erin, do you have some numbers that we could talk about to really ground in what’s happening right now financially? 

Erin [00:11:57] Yes. Beautiful. All right. My private practice fee calculator. And what’s funny is sometimes I’ll really go big with the numbers of like. Yes, this is what I would love to invest in our home improvement. And then I’m like, oh no, that’s going to raise my fee by $40. Like I can’t do that. 

Linzy [00:12:18] Yes. So like you look at what the implications of that would be. And it’s like no, no, no. 

Erin [00:12:21] Yes. And the scary part too, Linzy, is that what if I raise my fee and nobody comes? 

Linzy [00:12:29] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. There’s two ways to think about this. And we’re going to ground in your numbers, because I want to really start to get clear on what your money can be doing for you right now and what it is doing for you right now. Right. And then we can think about what needs to change. There is that question and there’s a couple different philosophies about, you know, fees and premium fees. The one philosophy is like if you build it, they will come, right? Like if you really own your niche and if you’re really clear about the value of what you do, and if you speak directly to your ideal client, you will find those folks even in your county, right? Because you don’t need 4000 clients, you need 15 or 20, right? 

Erin [00:13:03] Yes. 

Linzy [00:13:04] So there is that. There’s that approach, right, of just like really leaning in and owning your niche. And that’s what coaches like Tiffany McLain will teach you to do. Right? Which is just like own it, right. Be bold. You know, lots people are going to say no, but you’re going to figure out who says yes, and you’re going to be able to keep refining your messaging to find those folks who say yes, right, by owning your fee. That’s one philosophy. The other philosophy is kind of like reading the room of like, okay, I don’t live in San Francisco. You know, I live in a small town, North Carolina. You know, there isn’t tech money here. So let’s think about what is reasonable to keep a full caseload. Right. And generally speaking, I mean, my approach to life and money in general, Erin, is like, I think the truth is in the middle there somewhere, right? Of like, you probably can’t charge $500 an hour living where you are. There’s probably only 2 or 3 doctors who could, like, sustain your caseload or be part of your caseload that way. But you might be able to charge more than 135. But part of it is getting us grounded in like, what do you actually need? Right? And what’s even possible with the numbers right now? Because when we have this emotional weight around debt as well, that can make that feel really urgent and important. And sometimes we can over prioritize that because we want it to go away because of like shame and like negative stories or negative memories associated with it. We want to like close that chapter, but that’s not always strategic. So I want to think about that too, as we look at your numbers. Okay. Is like, how does that fit into this equation and how important is it compared to the pool or your kids sports or going out for dinner on Fridays? 

Erin [00:14:31] All of those points are so true, because every time I look at my credit card statement, I think, oh, I can’t wait to get rid of this. And then I go through the negative self-talk of I must not be doing enough. And then, it’s yes, a very frequent debate of what can I do now? The beautiful thing is, I started my own podcast back in December and that topic is on OCD. Aisha Shabazz has been really good with the business coaching and help helping my niche down to be an OCD specialist, and I love working with OCD and with that podcast it was amazing. After only three published episodes I got a sponsorship. 

Linzy [00:15:20] Amazing. So there’s that other stream of income then as well. 

Erin [00:15:23] Yes. With that yeah. Took a huge weight off my shoulders. 

Linzy [00:15:27] Yes. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. And I think that’s one of those things I love hearing that that is already come for you, Erin, because that’s also something that a lot of therapists, I think fantasize about or talk about, like, what else can I do besides therapy? How else do I bring in money, can I coach? And so that’s really nice that you have that extra stream of income coming in. 

Erin [00:15:45] Yes. It’s like a side hustle that aligns with the work I’m already doing. 

Linzy [00:15:49] Yes, yes. Which is beautiful. Creating that kind of ecosystem is really strategic, right. Because that side hustle is really about what you’re doing. But it’s fun and it’s different. It’s not just therapy, but then it’s also helping folks find you and get into your therapy practice. If they live in North Carolina or wherever you’re licensed. 

Erin [00:16:05] Right? 

Linzy [00:16:05] Yeah. So what I want to do together now is look at your numbers from a zoomed out perspective. Right. Because when we have all these competing priorities and all these obligations around our money, it can be really easy to get kind of caught in the weeds and overwhelmed by what we put where. What we’re going to do together now is I’m going to walk us through a profit first calculator. So this is something I often do with folks inside Money Skills for Therapists during their one on one. Actually, often this is a conversation I have with folks, is looking at your numbers and zooming out together to see, okay, with the numbers as they are right now, what is possible? Like where are the obligations and where are the possibilities? So I’m going to share my screen with you, and we’re going to look at your numbers through this lens. And this tool I will share with you after. So you will have it. 

Erin [00:16:48] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:16:49] You’re welcome. So this is your calculator and we’re going to play with it. And what this is doing here, Erin, is it’s letting us zoom out on your numbers. So I’m going to zoom in first so you can see them better. Zoom in so we can zoom out. There we go. So this is a calculator that helps you see, based on how you set your profit first percentages, based on the big picture priorities that you set for your money, what that money would look like on a monthly basis. So we’re zooming out of the weekly. We’re like getting out of like the good versus the bad weeks, those ups and downs that can be really distracting and confusing and thinking about what is normal, right. What is normal with, you had a great week, but then the next week your kids were sick and you’re off for two days, right? Like just evening those things out. So looking at your year, whether you use Simple Practice or whatever, do you have some numbers that we can look at to figure out what’s average for you? What is a normal month? I’m looking at your your income numbers for your practice. 

Erin [00:17:47] Sure. Right now I would say on average – and things are still building and growing. What I would say about the past three months, my simple practice income has shown $3,000 a month. 

Linzy [00:18:03] Okay, so $3,000 comes in the door in the top. 

Erin [00:18:07] Yes, on average. Now this month might be 4000.  

Linzy [00:18:11] Because you’re still growing. Yes, yes. And to give me a sense of like what is your caseload right now? How many folks a week are you seeing right now? 

Erin [00:18:19] I’m seeing ten a week. And my goal is 15. So I’m very proud of myself. I’m way ahead of my yeah, I thought I wouldn’t be able until a year out. And I’m since I started working with Aisha, really niche down I would say I’m still less than six months. So it’s beautiful. Great. 

Linzy [00:18:39] Yeah. You are on the right road. You see it’s working there. Is that part of the beginning where patience is part of the equation, right, of like it takes a while for people to find you. I’m sure that right now there are 5 or 6 people who have found you and they’re contemplating reaching out, or they’re talking to their partner about whether they have the money for it. But it takes some time, right, for folks to actually, like, get in the door, stay. Yes. So right now then we’re looking at 3000 and that’s with your ten a week. So if you are at 15 a week I would estimate then it’d be about 4500 right. It’d be 50% higher would be what your revenue would become. 

Erin [00:19:14] That sounds about right. 

Linzy [00:19:15] And I’m just saying that number because off the top, I know that 3000 is not going to be able to go very far for you. So. Right. We’re going to look at 3000 quickly. But I think given that you’re in this growth stage, we know that you need to grow. That’s a given. Right. Like we know that for your family’s needs, ten clients a week is not going to be enough. So we know that 15 is where you need to go or want to go and and where you need to go, right. So I want to look at 3000 really quickly just to see your current state. But I think we’ll actually play with that 15 a week because that’s a very realistic goal. And it sounds like you’re well on your way to that goal. 

Erin [00:19:49] Thank you. Yes. And with the clients too. You know, we start out meeting every week. And then as their symptoms improve we go to another week. And so that fluctuates with, you know, income and whatnot. But yeah in doing just a quick calculation, if I saw 15 people at a rate of 135 for four weeks. Yeah, that would be a little bit over 8000. 

Linzy [00:20:12] Oh okay. There you go. So we’re looking at much more then. So 8000. So if we do that math like yeah let’s play with these these possibility numbers. Because that’s really I think where we need to go for you. So 8000 a month would be if you’re seeing for a week totally full, but you don’t work 52 weeks a year. You have vacation, you have three kids. If your kids are anything like my kid, they are sick a lot. They bring home all the germs. Thinking about the big, big picture, let’s zoom out to a whole year right now. How many weeks a year do you want to work and do you actually work? There’s two weeks of of like just statutory holidays. I’ll say that just between like Christmas and MLK day and those days. So thinking about your big picture, how much time do you actually not work because of sick time, holidays and vacation. 

Erin [00:20:57] Or my ideal schedule? I would love to take six weeks off in the year because part of that too is with my boys sports. We go out of town. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:08] That travel. Yes. And that’s important. Okay, so if I put – I’m just going to kind of like zoom us out to like if you worked every single day and you saw all the clients you want to see, at your rate, you would be looking at $96,000 a year if you never took a day off. We know that we want you to work 46 weeks a year, because we want you to take six weeks off. So what I’m going to do is I’m just going to do the math to bring that down. So that brings us to 84,000 a year. 84,923 is kind of like your reasonable number. If you’re full when you’re working or you average out to full, because some weeks maybe you see 18 clients, the next week you see 13. If we average out to 15 and you take six weeks off, we’re looking at 84,923 for the year. 

Erin [00:21:50] Yes. And that matches with what I have on this spread. Awesome. 

Linzy [00:21:54] Okay. So you’ve got that projection already. Beautiful. I’m going to break that down now into month. And that’s going to be 7076. So that’s what I’m going to put in the top of your profit first calculator here as your monthly revenue would be 7076. So now we’re just going to do a gut check on these numbers Erin. So for folks who are listening they obviously can’t see you because this is a podcast. But we have a calculator we’re looking at and it’s got the different categories of profit first, which is like profit, taxes, salary, operating expenses, and then we’ve got a big goal category, which is one that I always include, which is not part of core profit first, but I think is core. So we’re going to just look at the percentages and see what they mean for your numbers in this. Okay. So these are the default numbers. And we’re going to start with operating expenses because that is a different kind of number. That’s a number that you don’t pay taxes on. So we treat it a little differently. So right now if you were bringing in $7,076 on average, and we had your expenses at 30%, which is like the standard that Mike Michalowicz suggests, you would be at $2,122 a month to run your practice. How does that number land with you? 

Erin [00:22:59] That sounds very spot on, because that’s essentially where I’m at between paying for, you know, podcasting expenses, coaching, the email newsletter, the EHR, all the things, and rent office, everything adds up so quickly. 

Linzy [00:23:15] Yes it does. Okay. Yeah. Right. So that actually is what you need. So once you get to your cruising altitude that 30% operating expenses is going to cover what you need. So that’s great. You know, I would almost suggest you might want to think about it being a little bit higher. If that’s where you are now. There might be some extra expenses that come when you’re a bit busier. But for now, we’re just going to like be like, okay, we’re just gonna accept that as a gift. 

Erin [00:23:37] But that is true because it would be lovely to hire like a virtual assistant, for example. 

Linzy [00:23:44] Yes. Let’s kind of like bookmark that and look at your other numbers first and then see later if that feels like a priority compared to your paycheck. So right now with these numbers, the way that they are, Erin, your salary at 50% gives you take home cash pay – this is cash going home to you – of about $3,500 a month. So 3538 how does that number land for you? 

Erin [00:24:06] That would be lovely. 

Linzy [00:24:07] Okay, okay. So that’s a happy number. 

Erin [00:24:09] Yes. I mean, our goal is to be living simply. So our goal is to live simply. But at the same time like of course if there is more profit coming in that’s great. But so with this salary, is this also covering personal profit or is this. Do you know what I mean? 

Linzy [00:24:31] Yeah I do, so personal profit. Do you mean like extra money coming in? Like tell me more about that.  

Erin [00:24:39] On my spreadsheet. I have a monthly budget need of about $4,900. 

Linzy [00:24:47] Okay, 4900. And that 4900. Tell me what jobs that 4900 does for your household. 

Erin [00:24:52] Okay. That will cover my business expenses plus personal expenses that I have. Guesstimate it at a minimum. Let’s say. Okay. 

Linzy [00:25:02] So that also covers your business expenses. 

Erin [00:25:04] Yes. 

Linzy [00:25:05] So that that number there actually is going to include these operating expenses then. Is that right. Because that’s the money to run your business. 

Erin [00:25:12] Oh true. 

Linzy [00:25:13] Yeah. Now we’ve separated those things out. And this is one of the nice things about profit first right. Is it’s really clarifying that it’s like 2000 is for your business. This is actually just cash going home. Taxes we’re going to talk about in a minute. So this is just cash paycheck which you could pay yourself $3,500 once a month. You could pay yourself half of that twice a month. Like you get to divvy it out how you want. But this is like a sustainable number once you get to this cruising altitude that we’re talking about. 

Erin [00:25:37] Wonderful. That’s that would absolutely cover my needs and some. 

Linzy [00:25:42] Beautiful because then the other pieces here, Erin, that we always want to look at with profit first is taxes. So the taxes here, this is kind of like a side quest for you. This is some homework I’m going to give you. Is to look at you and your husband’s combined tax rate as a couple, based on what you plan to earn and what he earns from his veterans benefits. Looking at your your city and your state, you can just find online tax calculators that will do this. If you just look up tax calculator, how much will you to owe together? And what you want to look for is your effective tax rate. So that’s your average tax rate that you’re going to owe as a couple. There’s a bit of extra taxes that you will also as a self-employed person. And I have a tool for that. There’s a workshop that I have that I can link in the show notes for this episode, which walks you through how to save for taxes, like looking at your tax rate with your self-employment taxes, because those are an extra 7.5%, and making sure that between you and your husband, you’ve got it covered, right? So that’s kind of an extra side quest that you could do. What we want to make sure is that you’re just covering the amount of taxes that you are going to owe based on you and your husband filing together, because as Americans, the default is that you file jointly and you have a shared income tax rate that you have to pay. 

Erin [00:26:50] Yes. Now his military benefits are tax exempt, which is beautiful. 

Linzy [00:26:55] That is beautiful. 

Erin [00:26:56] But still with the self-employed taxes. Yes. That’s something that has been another learning curve because I can’t afford an accountant anymore like I used to. 

Linzy [00:27:06] Okay, that puts my brain off in all other directions. I do think an accountant is a worthwhile investment. I will say that. So we’re not going to go too deep into that. But I will say like that, that language of like, I can’t afford it. A decent accountant will save you much more than their fees in tax savings. Okay? Right. Because they know the rules. They love the rules. They know the new IRS benefit that’s come out that most of us don’t know about yet. And so I would you know, I’d like to challenge that as maybe a limiting story that you can’t afford an accountant. I think an accountant, any accountant who is decent, is going to make you back their fee in savings. They’re going to find you that you would not find for yourself. Okay. And then, you know you’re compliant. Yes. And it’s all done properly. 

Erin [00:27:46] Yes, I’m definitely open to that. And that’s part of the reason why I’m here today, because I do get tunnel vision with some of these obstacles. 

Linzy [00:27:55] Yes, yes, we all do. We all do. This is why we need other humans in our lives. Okay, so this tax amount then what I will tell you is that the default tax about for profit first is 15%. That’s like a really low number. It’s probably less than you need to say for your tax rate. But that’s because profit first taxes apply to all the money coming in the door. Right. We’re setting aside 15% of all of the 7000 that comes in the door, but you’re actually spending 2000 of that to run your business. Right. So that’s why it’s a lower number. You can look into, once you figure out your tax rate, modifying it to fit into profit first, we just like apply the tax rate to what’s left for you. So you’re going to take your tax rate. Let’s say you figure out your tax rate is 20%. And it might be quite low actually in North Carolina. I’m not sure of North Carolina’s tax situation, but I don’t consider it a high tax state. It doesn’t bring my brain that way. So what you’re going to do is you’re going to take the number that’s left. So you’re actually living off 70% of what comes in the business. You’re going to take the number 70 and multiply that by your tax rate. And that’s what we’re going to put in this profit first box. And since this is recording you can go back and listen to it when your podcast comes out later to guide you in that process to double check your numbers. But this 15% assumes a tax rate of about 20%, income tax about 20%, which for many people covers your needs. Especially since you have kids, you’re going to also qualify for certain benefits from the government, like there’s certain exemptions that we all qualify for. I’m going to just move forward right now, assuming that this 15% is like accurate enough that we can still play with these numbers. 

Erin [00:29:21] Okay. 

Linzy [00:29:21] Beautiful. So that would mean each month that Erin, you’re putting aside just over $1,000 for taxes as part of this equation. And then this top bit here is profit. Are you familiar with that concept from Profit First? 

Erin [00:29:33] Not really. So it’s very helpful to get this one on one feedback. 

Linzy [00:29:38] So the profit first, the concept of profit first is that most businesses the way that Mike Michalowicz puts it is they’re like money eating machines. It’s so easy for us to spend money in our businesses. And I see it for myself too. Like I’m so much faster to like, buy my team lunch out of the business and be like, oh, it was only $77. If I spent $77 on lunch out of my own budget, I’m like, oh, was that worth it? Right. It’s so easy to spend out of the business. And so the concept of profit first is we want to make sure that there’s always profit in the business. There’s extra money. And in a therapy world, you know, profit can be a dirty word, because we’re supposed to be serving people and whatever. But the way that I’ve really started to think about profit over, like, the last few years of working with therapists is profit is is your oxygen. And that’s Julie Herres’s phrase that I learned from Julie Herres, who wrote Profit First for Therapists, which I recommend, that just came out last spring. Profit is your oxygen. That’s that extra money we were talking about in your business, right? That’s the money that’s there if things go sideways, right, that’s that extra. Now, the way that I tend to teach is the profit in profit first, though, as long as you’re saving money in other places and you’re starting to build up some extra operating expense money, you’re building up some extra paycheck money, which is what I teach in Money Skills for Therapists. I teach systems to do that. Then you can actually just take all your profit. It’s going to be your reward money. It’s going to be your extra bonus money. Right. So in your case right now this is a monthly number. So it’s a 350 a month you could take for profit. You take it quarterly to reward yourself for taking risks and running a business. Right. And like doing all these hard things that you’re doing. How does that number land with you? 

Erin [00:31:20] That sounds amazing. 

Linzy [00:31:22] Okay, great. So that I’m seeing all these numbers are making your body happy, which I like. 

Erin [00:31:26] Yes. And I agree with how profit can feel like oxygen because I can imagine myself once I am in the space where am I doing this budget rework and moving my money differently will help me feel like I have that breathing room, because right now it does not feel that way. 

Linzy [00:31:45] Yes, yes. And this is where this perspective helps, right? Like when we zoom out, it’s like, okay, when you get where you want to be, which you’re not very far from that place. All these things are immediately possible, right? But part of it is we need to make the decision to make them happen, right? Because the human tendency is that we are going to either kind of spend blindly or we’re going to hold onto the money not knowing where to put it, or we’re going to put it where there’s pain. But that’s not actually what’s going to make our life better. Right? So this is why we’re we’re doing this big picture work now and zooming out before you’re even in this position of having this money. 

Erin [00:32:19] Yes. And I definitely fall into the category of putting too much money towards my pain. 

Linzy [00:32:24] Yes. Yeah. And we do that. We all do that as humans, right? It’s like your, the feeling lonely or sad. One night you’re scrolling through Instagram, you see something shiny, you buy it because it makes you feel better for literally three minutes. That’s what we do as humans, right? As we try to find the root out of our pain. But that doesn’t actually necessarily give us long term relief or long term joy or connection and the things that actually make life better. What I’m hearing is these numbers are sitting nicely with you. There’s one more piece, though, that’s not on this calculator yet, which is debt. Debt repayment. 

Erin [00:32:53] Right. 

Linzy [00:32:54] So thinking about debt, there’s a couple places here that you have opportunity then to service this debt. We have this profit money which is like 350 a month. And we also have your salary, your street cash coming home, which is about 3500 a month. We’re going to play now. So I’m going to add debt to your bottom line here. I’m going to change this big goals line on our calculator to credit card debt. 

Erin [00:33:15] Yes. 

Linzy [00:33:16] And now we’re just going to be curious about taking money from somewhere else. Because right now this adds up to 100%. Okay. We’re going to reassign some jobs from some of these dollars. So where could you see a number be a little bit lower, so we could put money towards your credit card debt. 

Erin [00:33:29] Well I guess it would have to either come from the profit or the salary category. 

Linzy [00:33:36] And if you think about your paycheck coming home being a little bit less, what number would still be a number that feels like enough? 

Erin [00:33:42] Could we try 45%? 

Linzy [00:33:45] Absolutely. So if we make that salary 45 now it’s 3184. 

Erin [00:33:49] Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:50] Yeah. How does that sit? 

Erin [00:33:52] That still covers me. Beautiful. Okay. 

Linzy [00:33:54] And then if we move that 5% over into credit card debt, then you’re putting 353 a month towards credit card debt. How does that sit with you?  

Erin [00:34:03] Yeah. Right now I’ve really been pouring all the extra into the credit card. 

Linzy [00:34:08] I hear that, I hear that, yeah. 

Erin [00:34:10] Yeah. And my goal is to be debt free by the end of the year. 

Linzy [00:34:14] Okay. So your goal is debt free by the end of the year. That credit card remind me the balance. 

Erin [00:34:18] Mmmmmm. 

Linzy [00:34:20] I know, it’s an icky number. 

Erin [00:34:22] Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. All the debts, the credit card debt is 20,000.  

Linzy [00:34:28] I did know that number. I had just written that number down, so 20,000. Okay. And that’s a really good number for us to know, because if you want to pay that number, I’m going to do some quick math just on the principle on that number. So just paying down the main amount without considering the fact that there’s interest every month to pay down $20,000 in 12 months, you’d have to put $1,066 a month before any interest has been added. Right. So we’re probably looking we can look at a calculator together if you want, but we’re probably looking more at like 2000 a month. 

Erin [00:35:02] Yeah. So then do I need to reconsider spacing that out more. Because again, like you were saying earlier, my kids are only young once. Yes, exactly. And they can’t. Yes. Like debt does not feel good. But my kids are not going to know the difference if that credit card is paid off or not. 

Linzy [00:35:22] Exactly. 

Erin [00:35:23] What they’re going to see is if I’m present with them, if we’re doing things together and I can’t. It has been such a struggle. The more I really think about it, because sometimes I do try to step away and I think I can’t continue to look at the balance like just transfer the money, pay it, walk away. 

Linzy [00:35:44] Exactly. So we’re going to take a quick look. Now I’ve just done a really quick search for credit card pay down calculator. There’s dozens of these. Most of them are websites that are selling you something. So they’re going to say and at the end debt consolidation or like join our bank. So that’s fine. We can ignore those parts because that’s not what we’re looking for. But this what I find is really helpful, Erin is like, let’s talk about real numbers, right? Like what is the actual cost of debt? Because debt is just an expense, right? It’s money that you took on. You had to cover this unexpected loss of income that happened. Right? You didn’t have just like $50,000 sitting around to cover your life for X amount of time. And so you took on debt. Debt can be part of a strategic way of managing our money. Okay. Right. If we take out those negative stories, if we take out or that I should have or I failed or make it a symbol of this bad time, if we can remove those things, it’s just another financial decision to make alongside all your other financial decisions around where money’s going to serve you best in your life. 

Erin [00:36:44] Right? Right. 

Linzy [00:36:45] So your credit card interest rate, do you have a guess or do you know your interest rate? 

Erin [00:36:50] It’s 18.15. 

Linzy [00:36:52] Yeah, that’s pretty standard okay. And right now, let’s put this down here. Desired months to pay off. This will give us that real number that we were just talking about. 

Erin [00:37:01] Okay. 

Linzy [00:37:01] If you want to pay it off in 12 months. So a year from now, I’m going to calculate you would have to make a monthly payment of 1835. Okay. And the total interest that you would pay is $2,000 for that whole year. Like that’s how much it would cost you to have held that debt for a year. Okay. Right. $2,000 on 20,000. So it’s kind of like each month. Then you’re paying $166 of interest on this pay down plan. Right. So that’s what we’re talking about is like we’re talking about making a plan that, you know, the kind of amount we’re talking about is $166 a month. Let’s just be curious about extending that timeline. Maybe this is not the most important thing in your life. 

Erin [00:37:43] Okay. 

Linzy [00:37:44] What would be another timeline that could sit nicely with you on how long you want to take to pay off this card? 

Erin [00:37:51] Can we try two years and do 24 months? 

Linzy [00:37:54] 24 months? Let’s do it. So now you’re looking at a payment of $1,000 a month, and you’re paying about double the interest. So your interest per month is 398 for that whole two years. If I divide that out by 24, you’re still paying 166 a month in interest. You’re just paying it for longer. 

Erin [00:38:12] Right? Well, I’m going to be making more money. Yeah, hopefully the longer I do this. 

Linzy [00:38:18] You are. Yep. So if we think about this like we are talking about $166 of interest a month that it’s costing you to hold this debt on average, that money, that number is going to get smaller and smaller as the debt goes down. But I’m just kind of averaging it. Right. So if we think about that, that over the whole life of your 24 months of credit card debt, it’s 166 a month. How heavy is the number 166 a month compared to the other things in your life? 

Erin [00:38:44] When you break it down like that, it doesn’t feel so heavy because that essentially is only one session a month. One hour. 

Linzy [00:38:52] 100%. So like one hour and like, I don’t know, maybe 20 minutes of your time using your expertise is covering the expense of carrying this debt. 

Erin [00:39:02] Wow. 

Linzy [00:39:03] What do you notice about that? 

Erin [00:39:05] I just feel a huge weight lifted off because I have just been so caught up in. I’ve got to get rid of this. I’ve got to get rid of this. And then to think, what am I doing? Like, it’s. Yes, I want to pay more than just the interest, pay down on the principle. But I just have other important things in my life that are a priority besides credit card interest. 

Linzy [00:39:27] Exactly. So, you know, if we think about this now, coming back to your profit first calculator, now you can put this in perspective with your other numbers, right, of like what is that timeline? I will I will share with you that I have debt associated with a backyard cottage, we built a cottage that’s our second business. So we built a cottage in our backyard. We rent to students. We’ve created like beautiful, safe housing in our community where housing is low. That is a big investment. When you’re talking about building earlier, like your husband building the house. The other thing comes to mind to me is there’s it’s always way more money than you think. Oh, it’s construction, right. So there was a big cost overages. And those cost overages mean that on top of the mortgage that we took out planning to, there’s an extra $35,000 of debt on a line of credit, right. That could cause me a lot of pain if I want to be like, oh, you know, like we weren’t told about the contractor, about that sewage. And this is the extra, like, money that it cost because people made mistakes. Like that could be really loaded money for me. Right? If I lean into that side of the story. But if I look at the other side of the story that it’s like we built this beautiful thing, right? It’s doing exactly what we want it to do. We have two wonderful students who are so conscientious and kind, who have a beautiful place to live. They literally are occupying a part of our backyard that we didn’t use. And now it’s productive, beautiful housing, you know, where they’re living out their their years as university students. When I talk about it like that and I think about like, okay, you know, at this rate we’re paying it down in four years. There’s no pain there. I actually feel really like my body feels light and excited by us doing that. That’s wonderful. Right. So it’s a different it’s it’s the same number. It’s still like going to take time to pay it down. It’s still costing me money. But I’m leaning into the other side of the story. So you know, as I’m, you know, we’re thinking about your debt, it’s like, yeah, what side of the story do you want to lean into? And what is important compared to paying down this debt. 

Erin [00:41:18] Right. Yeah. And what’s important is my family and using this money for my family, not just over focusing on the business credit card interest. 100%. 

Linzy [00:41:32] Yes. So when we look at this, then you know your profit first numbers. This is where now that we can put that in perspective, the debt right now with this 5% towards debt, it’d be 353 a month. So it’d be longer than that two year pay down period. This probably would put you more like a four year pay down period. 

Erin [00:41:48] Okay. 

Linzy [00:41:48] Is there anywhere else in here that you would want to see where you see wiggle that you’d like to see money go to the credit card instead? Or did these numbers feel good enough? 

Erin [00:41:59] I feel like right now where I am right now, currently in my life, the numbers work and perhaps I can be flexible. And once the home is built and we’re solid on all of the projects, then I can shift again. 

Linzy [00:42:17] Yes. Yes. Okay. So these numbers work for where you are. And they work for your current priorities in this specific chapter of life that you’re in. While your boys are young and you’re building this home for your family. 

Erin [00:42:30] Right? Right. And it will be gone one day. I don’t need to rush into it or force it at the expense of investing in my family. 

Linzy [00:42:42] Absolutely. Absolutely. So, Erin, what are you taking away from this conversation today? 

Erin [00:42:48] I feel so much better. Linzy. 

Linzy [00:42:52] Good. 

Erin [00:42:52] I sincerely appreciate this opportunity to talk to you, because you don’t get this kind of advice or expertise or perspective. It’s one of also my takeaways is that my credit card debt and interest is not the end of the world. I really need to, again, just like my values based practice, I really need to lean into my values and have my money match those values. 

Linzy [00:43:19] Absolutely. Yeah, and what I’m seeing, too, with your numbers, is you’re on track to get to a great place, even without changing your fee. Right. So this is your fee as it is. Right. And we started with that as part of the conversation is like you’re in a smaller place. Yeah. What is that emotion you’re showing on your face right now? 

Erin [00:43:35] Wow. That is incredible. I love I love that I don’t have to change my fee and that it is truly going to work for me. 

Linzy [00:43:45] Yes. Like the way that these numbers look right now, you just keep doing what you’re doing. Get up to this 15 a week, have that podcast help folks find you. We didn’t count your sponsorship money in these numbers either. 

Erin [00:43:58] That’s true. 

Linzy [00:43:58] So there’s a little extra there. So I’m going to give you this calculator. You can keep playing with it. Keep being curious. Add those sponsorship numbers see what’s possible. But what I’m seeing is like keep doing what you’re doing. You’re on a great track. 

Erin [00:44:09] This is wonderful, Linzy I really appreciate this. 

Linzy [00:44:12] Thank you so much, Erin, for coming on the podcast. I’m so grateful to Erin and to all of the therapists who come onto this podcast for coaching, for sharing their stories and their numbers. It’s so vulnerable. And I said that to Erin at the beginning of our recording. It’s such a vulnerable thing to do, to come on a podcast and talk about not only your personal anxieties and fears and where you are in your business, but your actual numbers. And so I’m so grateful to Erin for coming on and sharing her numbers fully, so we could actually really dig in and understand what’s happening. And in her case, see that she’s actually going to be fine. She’s in a good position and she just needs to keep doing exactly what she’s doing. And that piece about the debt. I’m really grateful that that came up today, because I was actually just thinking about it this morning before I recorded with Erin. Of conversations that I have with students inside Money Skills for Therapists about debt, and the stories and meanings that we attach to debt, and how much charge that can create around debt, and how that can make it feel so financially urgent when it isn’t necessarily going to actually be your top priority based on what else is happening in your life. So with Erin having her, her three boys and the age that they are and building a home and like basically, you know, managing their childhoods, creating a childhood for them, that in the end is actually more important to her than paying down that credit card debt and having clarity around that. In this case, it like, set her free. You know, like her, her body language at the end was so excited and relieved. And so it’s really important for all of us to think about debt. And how important is paying down that debt compared to the other things in your life? It’s one of many priorities. It is not the most important thing. 

If you want to get more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And I want to share about that workshop that I mentioned to Erin, which is the taxes workshop. It’s called Setting Enough Aside for taxes in five Easy Steps in this free workshop. You learn the real steps to make sure that your taxes are totally taken care of. You’re going to learn what mistakes to avoid when setting aside taxes for your private practice. And you’re going to learn how to use a simple and pretty tool that will tell you exactly how much to put aside to cover your own taxes each year. So I’m going to put a link to that workshop in the show notes. It’s a video and a tool to walk you through that process to get clear on your own taxes, making sure that you are setting enough aside that it’s never going to be a problem for you. Thank you so much for listening today.