[00:00:00] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.  ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is a returning guest, Nicole McCance, and Nicole is a psychologist turned business coach who helps folks grow their group practices. She grew her own practice to 55 clinicians and multiple seven figures while having toddlers at home and so she knows how to systematize and grow, and that is what we get into today. Nicole lays out the five steps to scaling your practice from the very beginning to the end, the five things to do to move you from being a solo practitioner, into having and retaining clients.

[00:01:26] Nicole is so clear in her thinking.Her podcast is called The Business Savvy Therapist, and you will feel that coming across today. So we dig into those five steps, with lots and lots of interesting perspectives and insights for her along the way about therapy and selling and marketing and making sure that you don’t become the CQA, the Chief Question Answerer, which is a role that probably many folks here can identify with. Here is my conversation with Nicole McCance. So Nicole, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:09] Nicole: So happy to be here. 

[00:02:10] Linzy: Yes, I am excited to have you here. I feel like since we last spoke, I’ve been spending more time in the group practice space. ‘Cause my own group Practice finances course has solidified and expanded, which has been so exciting. So I’m really excited to learn more from you today because this is a world that I’m spending more and more time in, and this is your zone: group practice. This is what you live and breathe.

[00:02:33] Nicole: Totally, yes, specifically helping people like scale their solo to a group or take their group to the next level.

[00:02:38] Linzy: Yes, and so scaling, I wanted to dig in with you today. ‘Cause scaling is something, it’s kinda like a hot buzzword too these days. We know that there’s an advantage to growing your practice beyond yourself, beyond your one-on-one time. so I know that teaching scaling is, this is what you do, this is your bread and butter.

[00:02:56] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:02:56] Linzy: Tell us about scaling. What is your approach to scaling that works well for group practices?

[00:03:01] Nicole: There’s definitely a way to do it because what happens if you do it the wrong way? You’re actually not a CEO, you’re a CQA. A Chief Question Answer, and people listening are probably like, oh my god, that’s me. I did not systemize. So I actually have a five step scaling method that I love to share that got me to seven figures in just two years with toddler twins at home.

[00:03:23] So I’ll say all five steps and then we can dig into like whatever ’cause there’s a, okay, step one, systemize your operations. You see, therapists tend to hire first. oh, just post it on indeed. Like how hard is that? But what happens is nothing is systemized. There’s no manual, and that’s why you become the CQA.

[00:03:40] So first systemize, then hire, which is step two. This is where you build your team after you have all the processes. Then step three, this is where you attract the clients with digital marketing, because I had babies at home. I wanted to leverage off of something that worked while I slept, that the marketing was happening in the background.

[00:04:01] That’s step three, step four, which a lot of people don’t do, so people think, oh, it’s, it’s, they’re obsessed with marketing, but here’s the thing, guys, there’s not your clients yet. Step four is: convert those clients with consult calls and then step five, retain them. That’s key. Otherwise, it’s a leaky bucket. With follow-ups though, this is a specific strategy. Retain with follow-ups.

[00:04:25] Linzy: Okay, so beautiful from beginning to end. So step one is systematize, which I feel like is not a very sexy place to start, which is why people don’t want to start there.

[00:04:33] Nicole: Yes. It’s boring. Super so boring. 

[00:04:35] Linzy: It’s so much funner to hire. What I find too with a lot of group practice owners is. Tell me if this is what you see as typical too. A lot of times folks also start a group practice ’cause their friend that they worked with at the hospital is looking for some part-time work. Like it happens so casually, it’s accidental. Right? And it’s always exciting and fun to be able to bring somebody that you love and respect into what you’ve built, right? And just get them going, but convince me, like why do we need to systemize first? Tell me about this Chief Question Answerer role.

[00:05:04] Nicole: Yeah, well, step one, I’ve worked with about 800 group practice owners. Now 70% are American, and if they fall into that accidentally, a lot of them overpay. That’s the biggest mistake, or they don’t have a contract at all, or it’s not a great contract, and then things fall apart and they’re not protected.

[00:05:24] That’s the biggest thing and that’s actually why I give people all my templates ’cause I’m like, here, I’ve already built the container, just take it. But systemization is basically getting everything out of your head. If it’s in your head, somebody will go to you and ask you that question and I mean everything. And so here’s the thing though, Linzy. I’m a bit of a control freak and so it was really scary to hire and put my reputation in somebody else’s hands who was kind of a stranger that I met yesterday on Indeed, right? So what was really helpful was templates. I templated every single new client email, what to say when they cancel, and that helped my control freak part because it was still my words, it was just my admin cutting and pasting and I could trust somebody cutting and pasting.

[00:06:10] Linzy: Yes, yeah and then you know, the quality ’cause you have set the quality

[00:06:14] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:06:15] Linzy: So I am curious from the systematizing perspective, what is your preferred method of having SOPs? Do you use a tool like Notion or Asana? Do you have a Word doc? What do you do?

[00:06:26] Nicole: Google Drive all day long, so there’s need to haves and nice to haves when you’re a startup and you’re scaling, personally, Asana comes later. I want every penny to be revenue generating. So get Google Suite. You can use Gmail, you can use Google Chat, put everything in the drive. All of the manuals we had, everything was in the drive live. I could see it updated by my admin. Then later when there’s cash flow, I love Asana, but I feel like it’s not something you need to invest in right away. It’s more of a nice to have.

[00:06:54] Linzy: Yeah, and I think that’s a good distinction,because sometimes it’s easy to confuse the tool with the actual activity and the activity I’m hearing you need to do is like, you need to write these things down. And you don’t actually need a fancy tool to write it down. You need a Word document.

[00:07:08] Nicole: Exactly, that’s all. Send somebody a link and put looms, like tons of videos. So it’s really easy and even onboarding. You want to systemize, streamline the onboarding. What do they get trained in? You know, when does supervision happen? Every single thing is streamlined. And that’s how I was able to build a revenue generating group practice that ran without me. Otherwise, it just would be a mess and I’d be exhausted.

[00:07:36] Linzy: Yeah, and I see this chief Question Answerer hat on many of the group practice owners that I know. Sometimes I hear folks talking about how it’s so hard to take a vacation, for instance, because it’s like you’re away and something comes up. The first thing they do is they come to you, and you get that text message that says,hey,I know your way, but just this one thing. And so that’s an interesting observation that you have where it’s well if the information lives in your head, they’re going to have to come to you.

[00:08:00] Nicole: Yes, and I actually suggest the first person you hire be an admin because they’re actually going to do the training eventually when you create the manuals that new therapists will be trained in the Jane app or whatever your practice management software is. They’re doing all that, not you, while you’re on the beach chilling.

[00:08:17] Linzy: And what is your response to folks who are scared or resistant to hire an admin? Because I do find that there’s a certain,I don’t know if it’s a subset of group practice owners, but certain folks find it really scary and hard to think about hiring help that’s not revenue generating, that’s just somebody they’re paying. What do you say to folks who are scared to hire an admin?

[00:08:36] Nicole: So two things. One is, what is your time worth and what is your freedom worth? If you’re going to pay this admin 25 bucks an hour, let’s say, but your hourly rate is 1 75, let’s say. It is a no-brainer, but it is the only way for you to focus on the business when you’re running the business and not in it. I will say this, I have a whole lot of people in my program right now. Those who hire an admin early, it’s a six month program. If they do it at the very beginning, guess what? They grow two times as fast. I track it because there’s two of them. It makes sense. There’s literally two people with the same focus and one other thing too is if you train your admin to do follow-ups, it is a revenue generating position because now those canceled clients are coming in faster, which is bringing in way more money than you’re paying that admin.

[00:09:27] Linzy: It’s so true. There is a revenue generating aspect ’cause I’m also thinking, yeah, you’re retaining folks, but also you’re going to be able to convert them faster. You can be in a session and somebody can get booked in while you’re in that session. Yeah. Okay. So

[00:09:39] Nicole: It’s a mindset shift. It’s a big

[00:09:41] Linzy: really is. It really is and I do find it’s one that is easy for some folks, probably like delegators. It’s easy. I consider myself almost an over delegator,like I’m the opposite of a micromanager sometimes, but for folks who have that belief where it’s like, only I can do this, only I can do this, of getting there, but yeah, you have to start thinking differently.

[00:10:01] Nicole: And it’s about asking for help and that it’s okay to ask for help,

[00:10:03] Linzy: So that’s step one, systematize. Step two is hire.

[00:10:08] Nicole: Yay, here we are. Hire. This is the fun part. I suggest your first therapist. Be a mini me and hire somebody that is very similar to you. I’ll share a quick story. When I was 27, I moved to Russia. I’m a quick start on the Colby. Not sure if you know what that means, but I fell in love, moved to Russia closed my practice, made the biggest mistake. I gave it to somebody who was nothing like me. I’m big energy, very direct and she was not that, guess what? Not one person stayed out of 50 people. I didn’t love the guy anymore. I moved back. I called everybody and I was able to take them back. Thank God, but what a hard lesson. Think about it, when you go to a restaurant, you expect the same vibe, the same energy, the same experience, right? So it can be a shocker when you hire somebody that is nothing like you. So really keep that in mind that whatever makes you unique and why you’re so booked, it’s important to know what that is and then find that, and have that be top of mind in the interview, and then they’ll retain them.

[00:11:15] Linzy: That’s such a good point. ’cause yeah,they’re coming looking for a certain energy and if you can’t offer yourself. It makes sense that you start with being able to offer somebody very similar to you.

[00:11:24] Nicole: Exactly. At least for your first hire, not all your hires for sure. We want to offer all the things to all the people but your very first hire,have it be a mini me.

[00:11:32] Linzy: That makes a lot of sense and with the mini me, I’m curious too, do you find that is also important? Like a similar clinical focus? What is the checklist of how I can tell if somebody is a mini me?

[00:11:41] Nicole: Yeah. So I would say a bit of personality. So are they direct, are they outgoing energy wise, you know, but also yes, focus for sure. So let’s say you do deeper subconscious work like IFS or if you’re more CBT cognitive than that’s a totally different person.

[00:12:00] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. So your first hire is that mini me. What is step three again? Remind me.

[00:12:04] Nicole: Yeah, so step three, here’s the fun part that everybody’s like, fun word marketing because you’re like, okay, but what about the clients? So now we’re going to attract the clients. There’s 16 different marketing strategies you could do. Here’s the thing, if you wanted clients yesterday, what have you got to do? The fastest way to bring in clients is to advertise. You have to pay to play, unfortunately. But if you’re like, I don’t have the effort, and I don’t have the time, then I love Google Ads because it brings in the people, but it only brings in the people if you have a website that can convert, if you don’t, it doesn’t work.

[00:12:38] Linzy: Right.Okay, so this is where you pay to get people in the door. And do you have any suggestions or tips for making sure that your ads are successful? Because this is something where I find sometimes folks get stuck when they’re thinking about things like Google Ads. Especially Google Ads, how can I tell if they’re working? Who should I hire for this?

[00:12:55] Nicole: Yeah, please do not do it yourself. You might as well flush your money right down the toilet, honestly, because if you think about it, a Google ad company takes about two or three weeks to set up the backend. That’s not our industry. You could be spending that two or three weeks on revenue generating things, building your practice, systemizing, hiring.

[00:13:13] The very first thing that’s most important is actually having a good website that converts. What that means is having messaging and certain pictures and calls to action. That should be the first goal for the therapist. So some tips are honestly, get a really good Google Ads company that works with our industry.

[00:13:30] ‘Cause we’re so regulated, there’s so much we can’t do. Be very clear on the keywords, but honestly, just trust them. The biggest thing you want to know is your ROAS, which is your return on ad spend in Toronto, to bring in one client costs about $100, but if you think about it, Linzy, that’s getting them to the website, clicking on book now, booking an appointment, showing up at the consult, booking, like that’s a lot of steps, but typically, how much money does one client bring in and if they stay, let’s say, a whole treatment plan typically you make about four times your investment, which my goodness, that’s a pretty good ROI.

[00:14:08] Linzy: Yeah, that’s very good return and that ROAS, like return on ad spend or ROI in general is I think another mindset shift that folks have to experience when you’re becoming really the financial leader of a business or a group practice specifically is like, yeah, you have to recognize that money going in now will turn into money later and you have to make sure it does turn into money. Which is a new way of thinking about money, I think for a lot of practitioners.

[00:14:32] Nicole: Oh my gosh. I’m just, today I released, The Master Your Money Mindset Masterclass specifically, because it’s like, and I used to be like this too. That spending money felt like a loss, right? Because I may not get it back and that mindset shift is everything. Once you realize the only way to make Think of the biggest conglomerates like real estate. You know, you have to invest in something. Is it scary? Yes, but if you just start really small and you track closely and you work with the right person who knows what they’re doing, there’s a really low chance you fail.

[00:15:06] Linzy: And that’s where I find, too, building up your skills to be with the numbers and being with that information is essential, right? Like you need to trust somebody, but also you need to know what to check to make sure is this working? Does this make sense? Do I want to increase this investment? Do I want to end this investment eventually, right? I think we can’t outsource that responsibility to somebody else in terms of making sure that it’s working. We have to actually be watching that.

[00:15:31] Nicole: There is a shift there and what I have found with being with those numbers every week is that they become much lighter as you get to know them. And you get to spot those things quickly if you’re like. Well, that’s kind of funny. Last week this looked a little different.

[00:15:41] Linzy: What’s happening there? you prevent fires, and when we’re used to running our businesses in these very responsive, crisis oriented ways, this can be something that falls down the list, but it absolutely should not.

[00:15:51] Nicole: Yes.

[00:15:52] Linzy: So step four I’ve marketed now.

[00:15:54] Nicole: Four. So now, okay, I’ve got the client, but now you need to convert them because they’re just a prospect. They’re not a client. I suggest converting clients with consult calls. Offer a 20 minute, not 15. There’s a reason why I’ll get to it in a sec. Free consult call and it’s a sales call, like I actually give people a script ’cause there’s certain things that you can say and your people cannot say and not convert on that call. The reason it’s 20 minutes is the last five minutes are to get their credit card, go over the cancellation policy, and most importantly, book four to six sessions and really get them committed and booked because therapy doesn’t work just with one session

[00:16:34] Linzy: No. No. It doesn’t. So, yeah, being clear that that’s a sales call, tell me more about that. ‘Cause I think sales calls are something that sometimes,the idea of sales can make therapists feel a little sweaty. They’re like, no, I don’t do sales. I help people. How do you talk to your therapist about sales?

[00:16:48] Nicole: Human beings avoid pain all day long. They’re probably avoiding going to your website and know that they’ve needed therapy for about a year. Really, this call is you taking a stand for them to actually change their life. The way to do that is to actually have them sit in their pain and agitate their pain.

[00:17:08] ‘Cause otherwise they will talk themselves out of it because they actually don’t want therapy. You know, I’m going to purchase some therapy today. No, they just want to feel better. Right. So if you see it as serving, taking a stand for this person where other people in their life may not be doing that, and for me, my own therapy has changed my whole life. So I showed up or did show up before I sold my practice with so much conviction that therapy works. It’s not sales. Now I’m just saying it as a business coach because it’s revenue generating and it’s sales and we should feel comfortable, like why is it that every other industry is comfortable with sales selling us stuff that we don’t need, but we literally change lives and we’re not comfortable.

[00:17:52] Linzy: You’re not selling somebody some cheap product that is a knockoff that’s going to break, but you’re selling somebody something of extreme value.

[00:17:58] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:17:59] Linzy: And that’s something that I used to think about sometimes when I would have to psych myself up a little bit about the value of what I was doing, likeI think about those best clients that I had and what was the feedback that they gave me. ] I remember one client that I had years ago, at the end of our work together, she was like, you have changed my life and you’ve changed the life of everybody around me. You’ve changed my husband’s life. You’ve changed my kid’s life. What is the dollar amount on that?

[00:18:20] Nicole: Exactly. No car or nice outfit or even vacation can do that for somebody, but therapy can do that for somebody. So being grounded in that when we’re having these conversations. Yeah, so to me, I’m hearing the word, like your energy showing up or that resonance that you’re showing up with that belief, you know, like psyching yourself up because I find that if, because I work with only group practices, if you have somebody who has a low conversion rate, they’re probably showing up to the call with doubt and then those mirror neurons kick in and all of a sudden. That client feels doubt and doesn’t book. So tapping into that before the call is important.

[00:19:00] Linzy: And I’ve had consult calls myself when I’ve been looking for a therapist where I can feel that the therapist is not totally convinced. Like you feel that you’re so right. Those mirror neurons come on and you’re like, um, I’ll call you back. Whereas before the call I was like, psyched. I was reading their specialty. It’s exactly what I need. I’m like, thank goodness I found this person, but yeah, that energy does really come across. If you are not convinced that you can help somebody, or if you are feeling bad about the prospect of them paying you money,that is going to come across in your voice.

[00:19:28] Nicole: Exactly. You need to value it first.

[00:19:30] Linzy: Yeah, so for conversion, I’m curious, what do you see as a typical conversion rate on a call like that? What is a benchmark that folks should be looking for on those calls?

[00:19:39] Nicole: 70%. Yeah, at least 70. There are some people who say, I think of yourself or when you were in practice, they were close to 90 and great I hired and they’re only 70. With training you can get them up to 80. Now this is on the call with a follow up, which is actually going into step five. You can move that conversion up. But I find couples are lower because they have to get a babysitter to talk to each other.

[00:20:06] Linzy: You have to have two people buy in. There’s extra complexity. So a good benchmark is about 70%. It’s normal that your admin will probably convert less than you at first.

[00:20:15] Nicole: Okay. So your admin’s not doing the consult call. I teach people to remove the bottleneck, remove the admin. The show up rate is higher when people book online and book their own appointment rather than admin. This is proven and so we tested both at my clinic. We actually said, well, let’s try to have an admin do it. And guess what happened? They wanted to talk to the therapist. So now I’m paying an admin Yeah. And having the

[00:20:37] Linzy: Right. Yeah.

[00:20:38] Nicole: So they’re just going to convert higher.

[00:20:40] Linzy: So you’re creating a bottleneck or friction if you’re putting your admin in the way. They just want to talk to the therapist. That’s a great point because I think folks do it both ways, right? So I do hear people where their admin’s doing it, but you’re very strongly suggesting it should be the therapist who does that call.

[00:20:52] Nicole: And test both. I do say a lot of people come into my program, they’re like, well, I’m doing something and I’m like, if it’s working and not broken, then don’t fix it. You know what I mean? But if you’re like, ooh, I’m not sure if it’s working, I would test out your therapist doing it.

[00:21:04] Linzy: Yes, which testing is I think another great mindset shift for business owners. This is something that I found I really had to overcome in myself when I first started building this business, was getting out of any feelings of If it doesn’t go the way you want, that you failed or that it says something about you, I think when we’re sensitive creatures, it’s easy to spiral into whatever little darkness we carry inside, you know, when something goes wrong. But if we think about it as testing where it’s okay, that was helpful information.

[00:21:29] Nicole: Exactly. It’s how we grow.

[00:21:31] Linzy: Yeah, it is such a helpful way to grow your business and I had a coach back in the beginning of this business who was like, it’s all data. It’s all data and that was so helpful when I was first starting just to be like, it’s data. Okay. I made this change in my sales funnel and everything stopped. What great information. Yeah, I get to fix it. So yes. Okay, beautiful. And then number five?

[00:21:49] Nicole: Lastly, follow up exactly. Retain clients. So the key to success is not actually how many new clients you have. This is a big mindset shift that I hope everyone gets. It’s the retention because otherwise you’re constantly like trying to invest, go to the networking, you know, it’s exhausting and costly on Google ads. If you can retain them, which is a long-term value, LTV of the client, you’re golden because now you have stability, but how we actually retain them as follow up and I mean, having your admin send an email every time they no show or cancel when they don’t book on the consult and when they ghost like they’re doing well and then all of a sudden they go on vacation. You never hear from ’em. And that’s just an email. It’s not solicitation, it’s just hey, we’re thinking of you. We noticed you didn’t book. And also was it a good fit? This is a chance where the admin gets to say, hey, and the person might be honest and be like, you know what? It wasn’t a good fit. Okay, great. We’ll move you to somebody

[00:22:47] Linzy: Yeah, and I’m thinking about one of my students who I know did your course, and she does this, I’m sure she learned it from you, where her admin follows up and is like, oh, hey, I noticed you had a first call with this person, or a first appointment, and you didn’t rebook. Was it not a fit? And sometimes it’s such a beautiful opportunity for the client to say, you know what? It wasn’t really a fit like I thought it was going to be, but the vibe wasn’t there. And then you’re like, wonderful. Let’s set you up with this other person. I’m hearing you’re looking for somebody more direct. Great, it’s so good that we know that now. So it’s like you’re actually, what I think for many therapists see sometimes as the end of the road is really just a fork. It’s just an opportunity to send them down another path if you have this in place.

[00:23:23] Nicole: And this is where you need the admin, and where it’s revenue generating. Research says that if you follow up, your sales go up by 20%, and so many people miss this step. It’s the most important.

[00:23:34] Linzy: My dad was a salesperson. When I was growing up, I was not pleased about that as an angsty lefty teenager. I was like, Ugh, sales are terrible. but I’ve come around to a different perspective, and something that my dad firmly believes and talks about is: it’s about going back. You go back again and again. So in our industry, that looks a little different. You can’t just show up at somebody’s house. But for him, like he sold tools and he tells the story of going by this guy’s shop every time he would be in this certain town and the guy would be like, wow, what are you doing here?

[00:24:02] I don’t want your tools. Get out of here. This real curmudgeonly mechanic but on the sixth or seventh time that my dad showed up to be like, hey, just checking to see if you need anything. He’s like, fine. I’ll buy something from you ’cause you won’t go away. Different exchange. We wouldn’t have an exchange like that with our therapeutic clients, but it illustrates a principle, which is if you just remind them that you’re there, put yourself top of mind again, it gives them the opportunity to make a different choice. And it could remind them, yeah, actually I do want to keep seeing that person and we are talking about something hard in therapy and it is easy to avoid, but I should actually keep going back.

[00:24:34] Nicole: Yes, and sometimes you just forget. Yeah. Have you ever really done something consistently, stopped for the summer and then forgotten? And if they would’ve reached out in September, you literally would’ve started again months before. 

[00:24:47] Linzy: Totally, Totally, Yes. Like you are also helping them to get back in a good habit that is serving them. Okay. So helpful. So, great. Thank you Nicole, for laying this all out. There’s so much in this. For folks who are interested in learning more about what you offer, all the help that you give, where can they find you?

[00:25:04] Nicole: If you’re a podcast person, I have a podcast. It’s called The Business Savvy Therapist, where I teach you everything about business. And if you love live events, I do have a weekly live event called How to Build A Seven Figure Group Practice, which is exactly what this is called today. So we go into the nitty and the gritty, and I live, answer your questions.

[00:25:23] Linzy: Amazing. Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Nicole.

[00:25:26] Nicole: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:25:38] Linzy: Something that stuck out to me in my conversation with Nicole is just how many mindset shifts we need to undergo as we move from more of a therapist mentality into a business owner mentality, whether that’s in your own private practice to make it sustainable in a solo practice, or whether you do want to scale into a group practice.

[00:25:57] There are so many ways of thinking that we need to shift around, selling and what it means and systems and getting help. There’s a lot of personal growth that we end up doing in order to be able to grow something that is beyond us, in order to be able to scale. And that’s certainly been my own experience of creating a more scaled business is there has been a lot that I’ve had to shift and change and overcome and identify and grieve and move on from, all of those things, as I have built something that can serve more people than I would’ve been able to just individually one-on-one sitting in an office. Lots of great insights from Nicole today. You can check out all the great things that she does if you are interested in also scaling your group practice.

[00:26:43] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts, and if you are enjoying the podcast, leaving a review is also a really nice way to get more eyes on this podcast. You can click on the link in our show notes. It will take you to a beautiful little page that will give you compatible apps or websites, based on the device that you’re using. So you can leave a review, share what you appreciate about the podcast, maybe share your favorite episode, and that just helps other therapists and health practitioners find us and also benefit from these conversations. Thanks for joining me today.

[00:00:02] Ed: Many therapists have experienced financial trauma amongst other forms of trauma. And this is not just about folks that maybe grew up in poverty, that’s one piece. But there are people, clients I’ve worked with that have grown up in great affluence that have just as much financial trauma. And so it’s expanding our paradigm to say it doesn’t matter where you land on the SES you’re going to have faced financial adversity.

[00:00:19] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Ed Coambs. Ed Coambs is a trailblazer when it comes to financial therapy. He shares today about his journey from firefighter to financial planner, to couples therapist, to now being able to practice this real blend of all these different skills, doing therapy, informed financial planning with couples.

[00:01:12] Today, Ed and I talk about financial intimacy. We talk about all of the pieces, all of our humanness and all the relational aspects that are bound up in money, and all of those pieces that we end up bringing together, with our partner when they also have their own stuff about money. We talk about why financial intimacy is so important for therapists to be able to develop our own ability to be with money, both with our clients, and in our own lives.

[00:01:38] We really unpack today all of these different facets that go into our relationships with money that make it so complex and nuanced and how that, then comes together with our partners stuff, to make money one of the most difficult things for couples to talk about. I so enjoyed this conversation with Ed today. You can really feel his blend of his therapy skills, and his knowledge of attachment styles and family systems, and how he brings that into finances and working with people and couples around money. Here is my conversation with Ed Coambs.

[00:02:24] So Ed, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:28] Ed: Thanks, Linzy. Thrilled to be here.

[00:02:29] Linzy: Yeah, I’m very excited to have you here. We share a similar passion and interest, for finances and therapists. So tell folks a little bit about your story and the work that you do. ’cause I think you have an interesting kind of mix of things that you’re bringing to the table.

[00:02:43] Ed: Yeah, it’s been a colorful and meandering journey, there’s a number of therapists, right, that don’t go straight into therapy like undergrad, graduate. And so for me, I started as a professional firefighter and I heard the guys complain about their wives and money and what stood out to me, I was actually being interviewed recently by a PhD doc student on financial infidelity, which will tie into where we’re going today is part of that impression is, I knew I didn’t want to have the problems the guys had at the firehouse, but part of it was financial infidelity because they would talk about not telling their spouse how much money they were making,

[00:03:17] Linzy: Oh, wow

[00:03:17] Ed: Especially in their side hustles, or if they worked overtime, you know, how much extra money was coming into the check would kind of get taken to the side. And so I was like, that doesn’t feel right. I mean, you know, 19, 20, 21 years old, but I also had the guy doing 4 0 3 B accounts, which are the retirement accounts. And he explained to me how investing worked in a pretty nice, simple way and I was like, I like this. This is cool. So I was like, oh, what is this field of financial planning, and I was working on a business degree because I thought I might be the fire chief.

[00:03:51] Linzy: Yep.

[00:03:52] Ed: Right, and so as life evolved, I met my wife. She was finishing dental school. I no longer wanted to be a firefighter ’cause I was burned out, pun intended.

[00:04:00] Linzy: Truly.

[00:04:01] Ed: I mean, that’s a whole other podcast episode on mental health issues in the first responder world. But I had this brilliant idea. I was going to be a financial planner and I was going to make all this money and I was going to be fantastic ’cause I was going to help people and then I realized that it took more than just being a nice guy to be a good financial planner and that some of the ethics of financial advising in certain segments was more about selling products than it was about actually helping people. So that wasn’t so hot, but I did end up working at Vanguard Mutual Funds, got my MBA, kind of all with this like if I just know more, everything will be okay. Get married, get my MBA, get my certified financial planner designation and guess what? My wife doesn’t like all my financial ideas.

[00:04:42] Linzy: What?

[00:04:43] Ed: What? Man, wait, when my mom asked me to talk with my dad about his small business. He’s not like wanting to implement everything that I offer him. Wait, there’s some other gnarly stuff happening with her parents and divorce and money, and I’m like, wait, we didn’t talk about any of this stuff MBA land CFP land.

[00:05:04] Linzy: Truly.

[00:05:05] Ed: So I was also feeling out of sorts in corporate America from having run into burning buildings to sitting in cubicles. So, I went back to school to become a therapist because they air quotes “help people.” I was pretty naive too. No, I had been to therapy, but I didn’t really get therapy and ended up in a seminary because I also had questions about God and people. And so of course, where do you go?

[00:05:29] And I was like, surely these therapist-people will know how money works and will be able to help me figure this out. How to use therapy, naive again. Yes, by your response. I was woefully disappointed. ‘Cause every time I tried to bring up the topic of money,they were neutral to not welcoming by and large and this will really tie very specifically into the work that you’re doing and advocating for. Fortunately, one of my supervisors was running and growing a successful group practice. He was very interested in what I was saying, what I was trying to figure out, how it applied, and how I could use it with my clients. I think he was also benefiting, which is fine. That’s great, but it was because he had that business mindset also that I felt this sense of resonance that he was open to like, how do these worlds intersect?

[00:06:17] Linzy: Yes.

[00:06:17] Ed: And so, you know, I got out of grad school really confused because now wait, I have a sense of self and there’s this trauma thing and like addictions and what? Oh my God. So I spent eight years as a full-time couples therapist digging deeper and deeper into what does it mean to heal yourself and help other people heal and help couples connect. And somehow I thought we would start to talk about their money, but like we could never quite get to the money conversation, right. Because when they come to couples therapy, they’re in deep distress, like comprehensive financial planning, investment management, not really their concern.

[00:06:54] Linzy: I would say those are like higher up, you know, the Maslow’s hierarchy than where they might be.

[00:06:58] Ed: Like if I’m worried… If you just cheated on me and I’m worried whether we’re going to be together three months from now, what my retirement account looks like is not that much of a concern.

[00:07:06] Linzy: No, not not feeling so important right now.

[00:07:08] Ed: No, so, along the way though, I’d also found the Financial Therapy Association, which is a group of financial planners, therapists, and academics that are saying, how do we bring these worlds together? Got very deeply involved, including being the past president, helping with the certification development, and so I’ve just been slowly weaving and diving and trying to integrate financial planning and therapy together with couples for, I don’t know, 15 years.

[00:07:34] Linzy: Yeah, and it is such a new space,a financial therapy. I am curious, being that you’re the past president of the association. When did financial therapy in your mind really become like a thing? When was there enough of it that it actually became a field of practice for therapists?

[00:07:51] Ed: Yeah, I think that’s a great question. So, I am not huge on dates and times like real well. So these are subjective boundaries, so don’t pin me to these, So I would say 14 years ago, like that first group, The Professional Organization of Financial Therapy. Now you just interviewed Barry Tesler, who’s phenomenal, who’s one of the people that I found when I first came out and I was like, oh. But professionally, 14 years ago at Kansas State Marriage and Family Therapist and financial planner, academics met each other and they got really interested in each other’s topics. Then they held some conferences at the universities to figure out what’s here. Is there something here?  They formed an organization, the Financial Therapy Association, 12 years ago. I got in contact with them three or four or five years ago. We’re trying to form a membership group, an organization, to create academic literature.

[00:08:45] So there’s the Journal of Financial Therapy, and we’re like, okay, well, but people are asking what does it mean to be a financial therapist? How do you do it? So, six-ish years ago, I think… Probably longer than that, seven or eight years ago, we started outlining the certification to be a financial therapist, created the training and we’re now in a revision and update. What’s the core curriculum? What does it take? Job task analysis. So like the field is progressing. There’s a couple universities that have graduate certificates in financial therapy

[00:09:15] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:09:16] Ed: The conference. I don’t know when this will go live, but it’s June 9th to the 11th in Athens, Georgia at UGA, which is one of the two primary leading institutions in the field.

[00:09:25] Linzy: Yeah. Like so it really is still forming, I would say and building and,

[00:09:30] Ed: yes. Yes. I mean, I think probably the closest field that people might recognize is like the field of sex therapy, and I don’t know the full history of that field, but I feel like we’re a couple generations behind them. They’re a specialized field that I think is parallel to what financial therapy is trying to accomplish.

[00:09:49] Linzy: Well, yeah, like similarly bringing a taboo topic to like the front of the conversation rather than, as you say, kind of hoping it’s going to come up with folks and actually having the skills directly work with it rather than it being kind of like an on the side topic,as you’re working with folks.

[00:10:04] Ed: Yeah, right, because the messaging overtly and covertly in the therapy training world is, it’s not about the It’s about all these other things.

[00:10:11] Linzy: I just mentioned to you when we were chatting before this new phrase that I just learned. I just came back from the American Counseling Association Conference,and the phrase was mentioned to me. It’s about the outcome, not the income, which is just clever first of all, we will give marks for cleverness, but terrible, right? Like just this,messaging that we get as therapists about money.

[00:10:29] Ed: I think it’s well intended, but it traps us psychologically in this loop that we can’t make money or want to make money.

[00:10:36] Linzy: Yes.

[00:10:37] Ed: And that somehow, right? Because the other association that we hold is that money is evil, dirty, or bad.

[00:10:41] Linzy:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:42] Ed: It’s capitalism. And it’s capitalism and the reality is that, I think it’s even before capitalism.I mean, it’s in the system of capitalism, but it’s developmentally as children, right? We develop binary, black and white and fantastical thinking associate that with money. I think that there’s some developmental cycles that we have to work through to really see money in a complex, nuanced way. Not this black and white way.

[00:11:09] Linzy: So tell me then about this concept you have of financial intimacy. What is financial intimacy?

[00:11:16] Ed: Yeah, absolutely. So financial intimacy is the ability to sit with your partner and to be comfortable with both your own reality of money and theirs, both the hopes, dreams, aspirations, as well as the fears, anxieties, places of shame, and that we can be seen and be known by each other around those financial realities.

[00:11:40] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, as you’re mentioning this, like something that we talk about a lot in Money Skills for Therapists, like in my foundational course for solo folks, is developing that ability to be with your own feelings and stories around money, like being able to develop curiosity and maybe tolerance for some of the reactions and be able to, you know, all those therapist things of by being able to be with it, being able to start to make some distance and notice it and turn it over. And then when you are in a partnership, you have that person’s stuff too, right? It’s double suitcases, full of stuff.

[00:12:13] Ed: Kind of like reverse synergy almost, it’s breaking apart. Usually when you have your unresolved stuff and their unresolved stuff around money that’s why it becomes so conflictual. And so we’re wanting it to be one plus one equals five synergy, but more often not. It’s one plus one equals minus 20.

[00:12:33] Linzy: Right, right. It’s kind of, I’m picturing,magnets as you’re making that hand motion, like it’s more like a repelling than an attracting,

[00:12:39] Ed: Yes, yes.

[00:12:41] Linzy: Plus your stuff equals We’re not going to talk about that.I’m not going to tell you and I’m going to talk to my mom about you..

[00:12:50] Ed: Wait, I’ve never heard that before. Just kidding.

[00:12:54] Linzy: Spoiler spoiler. um, Yes, okay, so that financial intimacy then is that ability to sit with your stuff and your partner’s stuff together?

[00:13:01] Ed: Right, and so most of my work is with couples, right? But like financial intimacy, I think, is about that primary partnership, but it’s also about being able to remain relational with other people in your life, right? So when we’re raising kids and we’re having to make money decisions, that’s going to evoke all kinds of money stuff. We’re having to plan family vacations, multi-generational with our siblings and our parents. That’s going to bring up stuff.

[00:13:26] Linzy: Yes.

[00:13:27] Ed: When we’re going home for the holidays, right, when we’re in the workplace. Now, of course, like with intimacy, there’s always degrees of boundaries and vulnerability, but that’s where some of that flexibility can come into play, too, because in the workplace there’s certain boundaries that are probably more appropriate for what we talk about or not talk about. But when we come into the home space, how does that change? So that’s where we need subtlety and nuance.

[00:13:52] Linzy: That’s really interesting. You know, you mentioned families and trips. This is something that I’ve never fully thought about before, but if I think about, for instance, my brother and I have very different relationships with money. And even though at some points in our lives we have been extremely fortunate to be gifted identical amounts of money by family, you know, as inheritances or gifts, our relationship to that money has been very different, and our relationship to money continues to be very different. Part of it is that our financial reality is maybe a little bit different, but not massively. Because money is about, you know, you’re thinking about like, do you solve this problem with moneyDo you stay in hotels? Do you buy an air mattress to sleep on the floor? Are we eating out? How many things are we doing? All of those decisions you have to make as a family when you are spending time together are financial decisions.

[00:14:36] Ed: Right. And there’s so many of those decisional points right? And our base frame of reference for what we feel comfortable with can be very different from our siblings. And this is yet another place where sibling dynamics also is a huge factor. I didn’t mention this in my intro, but it really is a massive driver for why I ended up in this work because I got Dash, took on the responsibility, the role of being the financially responsible brother and my brother got Dash took on the role of being the financially irresponsible brother.

[00:15:07] Linzy: Yes.

[00:15:07] Ed: And so that sibling polarization around money is very common, you know? And the classic parental refrain is, they came from the same family, how could they end up so different? Well, you came at different times in the family developmental story. You had different experiences in the family story. You try to find your own place in the family story, right? So all of these factors are setting up your relationship with money, also, and then if we keep weaving back to like, well, my spouse also has their familial relationships and their sibling relationships, and they’re looking at how I’m managing my sibling relationships.

[00:15:41] And so this is another piece of that intimacy opportunity breakdown is, well, maybe I want to support my little brother to do this thing, my spouse doesn’t love that. We’re living in this family system while navigating our intimate relationship. And so this is why it gets so complicated, and I think why money becomes taboo is we don’t have the relational skills foundationally, and then because we don’t have those, we can’t apply them into financial decision making

[00:16:07] Linzy: Yeah, ’cause I’m thinking too you know, as you’re describing this family, my brain is like trying to come up with a visual of like, how do we even understand this? It’s just like this web of stories, right? Because your story and your partner’s story, you know, might be directly repelling as we said.

[00:16:20] Ed: Uhhuh,

[00:16:21] Linzy: But connected to that is your relationship to your sibling story and your parents and then there’s going to be all these other,individual factors that you’ve experienced around finances, like your own individual experiences, and depending what field you went into, you know, what kind of education or lack of education you get around money, what kind of messaging? It’s a very complex ecosystem that we are living within as we’re trying to navigate these, you know, financial relationships with people.

[00:16:44] Ed: When I know you just went down, I think you said the ACA conference. I was just at the Psychotherapy Networker conference. And I loved your booth. I saw that you had the nice therapy set-up. That office.

[00:16:52] Linzy: Therapy office.

[00:16:53] Ed: It was phenomenal, I loved it.

[00:16:54] Linzy: Was so comfy. I was so glad we had that couch.

[00:16:57] Ed: I’m totally going to try to steal that design. I don’t know. Make it, I’ll make it my own. I’ll make it my own, I

[00:17:01] Linzy: It’s a great idea. You’re welcome to have it.

[00:17:03] Ed: But what we did is we turned our table sideways in our little cubby booth, and then we had genograms up. And the whole setup, it was like three, you know, big post-it note things. And I drew three different family constellations with a few money symbols.

[00:17:18] Linzy: Hmm.

[00:17:19] Ed: As you’re talking about, like how do I frame and organize this information? I think we go back to one of those foundational tools that we learned, which is genogramming, right? And recognizing that we are living in a complex system and so this is part of the balance that I think most of us are navigating with finances is what am I responsible for and what am I not responsible for financially?

[00:17:39] Linzy: Totally, and I think too,thinking about a family and the genogram, there’s all these cultural factors too, right? Of like, based on, also migration like my partner’s family migrated, which means you lose a lot of career and financial status when you migrate, and then there’s sending money home to family and that sense of like responsibility, which is a very different history than my family who’ve been in one place for a long time. So it’s like, again, just all these factors that come into play. I love the idea of the genograms and I am curious, what are some of those symbols? Like, what do you find is the important information to put as you’re thinking about your own family genogram around money.

[00:18:15] Ed: Yeah, some of the most common ones that people connect with are social class issues. And so, you know, oftentimes if we say they grew up in a wealthy family, then I’ll put like three or four money

[00:18:24] Linzy: Got it.

[00:18:25] Ed: Like if they grew up with no money, then I’ll put like a money sign with a slash through it. If they talk about relationships being lost over money, then I’ll, draw lines between the two relationship and then like a cutoff with a money symbol or like controlled by money money’s used, like, then we’ll use the wavy lines to show that.Financial infidelity as a term that we’ve talked about. So I’ll just write FI between two people because financial secrets are endemic and intimate relationships. And,there is a difference between financial secret keeping and financial privacy and intimate relationships. So yeah, those are some of the most common themes. You’ve mentioned inheritance. Inheritance is a topic that comes up quite a lot.

[00:19:07] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:19:08] Ed: Another one that’s surprised me in this work that’s come up more. If I had endless energy, time, and money, I would go down so many paths. But is wrongful injury or death money?

[00:19:18] Linzy: Oh yeah.

[00:19:20] Ed: Right, and so like this is a podcast for therapists, but like I’ve worked with a number of therapists where they’ve received wrongful injury money. What has that meant, and how has that set expectations, in the context of all these other moving pieces and like, oh, my partner’s the business person, so I’m going to let them manage the taxes for my private practice, but they are more accommodating, anxious attachment style, and so I’m spending money on the family. They can’t tell me no. So they just funnel more of the tax reserve money over to keep floating it, but then when tax time shows up, there’s no money left.

[00:20:06] Linzy: Good explosion sound.

[00:20:07] Ed: Yes, and so, right, but it’s like that sense of what am I responsible for? What are you responsible for? Every couple has it around money, and a lot of times it is based on acquired cultural community expectations and so, there’s so many money layers to be unpacked or worked through in financial therapy.

[00:20:30] Linzy: Yeah, and for therapists listening, why is it important for them to work on their own financial intimacy skills. What does that mean for us as therapists?

[00:20:41] Ed: I think it’s Jung. That is, I’m coming back to this phrase, but you know, what is unconscious you will call fate or destiny. Something along, like, I’m probably distorting it, right? 

[00:20:51] Linzy: But I get the gist.

[00:20:53] Ed: I think most therapists, you’ll know where I’m going with this. So it’s like if we’re not conscious of our own relationship and experience with money and then working through it, especially if we use that trauma lens, like how is it stored in our nervous system? How is it stored in our amygdala? And then how is it stored in our prefrontal cortex? And we’ve gotta get all of those systems working and integrated together. So that we can actually feel calm and at ease when we go to talk about money, not dysregulated.

[00:21:19] Linzy: Yes.

[00:21:20] Ed: So for our own lives, the other phrase that comes to my mind is sometimes therapists get tied to the chair, right? It is because they know when their butt’s in the chair, they’re making 150 bucks an hour, 200 bucks an hour, two 50, whatever your hourly rate is and unfortunately the math gets pretty easy at that point. It’s like, okay, if I see 15 patients times my hourly rate, this is what I get for the day and if I do this, then I get this. It’s a very cause and effect kind of experience. That’s great, but it can leave you trapped if you’re not also thinking about: how do I set aside this money to build wealth. This word that many therapists are uncomfortable with having. And reviewing. The more comfortable you can get with your money, the easier it’s going to be to feel like you truly are doing the therapy ’cause you love doing it, not because you need the money, but I think many therapists are saying, I love doing the therapy and it’s not about the money, but privately, secretly they’re sitting on a lot of financial anxiety and fear.

[00:22:21] Linzy: Well, and we all need money.

[00:22:23] Ed: It’s inescapable.

[00:22:25] Linzy: You might not be in it to buy a yacht, but you do need to buy groceries and send your kids to school and pay your bills and, as you say, save for the future, right? So there is this piece of it where, kind of like food, you can’t just opt out. We all have to be engaging with it regardless of how much you actually want to,pay attention to it.

[00:22:47] Ed: Yeah, I think that is so beautifully said, and it is just interesting to think about like the literature and the people that therapists are drawn to read or admire or put on a pedestal. And some of them are ones that have taken vows of poverty

[00:23:03] Linzy: Yes.

[00:23:03] Ed: Right? As the way to kind of enlightenment or wellbeing, and so like wellbeing and poverty have sometimes been deeply associated.

[00:23:14] Linzy: Yeah, it’s this martyrdom vein that runs through a lot of the ways that we talk. And,I think too, like purity and goodness, like there’s lots and, you know, for some folks that will have a specific religious flavor, for other folks not, but yeah, it’s so easy, I think too, to fall into this, like, working hard is good. Giving is good, Right. And a lot of things that I notice about many therapist type people is that many of us have been caregivers in some way, shape or form for our whole lives and we’re pretty obsessed with being good. Good is safe.

[00:23:44] Right. Like I know for myself as a child, I learned that good is safe if I’m helpful, if I’m smart, if I can help this person over, you know, in the corner to party, maybe I don’t really fit in, but I’m, you know, giving value. I like, I can be here, you know? So I think that many of us unconsciously are driven by this need to be good and what is good and we’re troubled by the idea that we might not be good,that maybe we want more than we are allowed to have, maybe more than the minimum, more than getting by. We can be so constrained, when we don’t actually just stop and acknowledge that we’re humans who have our own needs, and maybe our own wants, and maybe our own desires and that’s actually really important that we live those things. Not just to be therapists and practice what we preach ’cause we’re not telling our clients, like, have you ever considered just sacrificing yourself and giving it all away? Like, we don’t tell them to do that, but often we’re sitting in. 

[00:24:30] Ed: Actually, we’re trying to get them to stop doing that. 

[00:24:31] Linzy: Yeah, we’re doing the opposite. Right? But not only is it like practicing what we preach, but it’s also having a life you actually enjoy. Right? Like, have the life your clients think that you have. If we’re not willing to be with the fact that money is part of our life and we need it, it’s really hard to get there, to that place where it’s actually working for you.

[00:24:49] Ed: Yes, 100% and I think the thing that comes from my mind is just acknowledging and holding space for the fact that many therapists have experienced financial trauma, amongst other forms of trauma. And this is not just about folks that maybe grew up in poverty, like that’s one piece but there are people, clients I’ve worked with that have grown up in great affluence that have just as much financial trauma.

[00:25:12] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:25:12] Ed: And so it’s expanding our paradigm to say it doesn’t matter where you land on the SES you’re going to have faced financial adversity. And like, it’s about how your nervous system has wired the story about what money feels like and what it means relationally ’cause money is inherently relational and so we’ve gotta hold space for that as well.

[00:25:36] Ed: You know, money can be used to control, to manipulate, to feel shame.

[00:25:42] Linzy: To betray.

[00:25:42] Ed: To betray, to motivate, to encourage, to create joy and bonding like money can is interwoven into every human way of being.

[00:25:52] Linzy: Mm-hmm. Agreed, and it makes me think about, you know, the money as a tool is something that some of my students come to by the time they work through maybe with trauma therapy, work through some of the trauma. They come to the point where it’s like, money’s a tool. I get to use it. But all tools can be used for good and creativity and love and joy and all tools could also be used to cause harm, right. That’s the nature of any tool.

[00:26:14] Ed: Yeah, absolutely. When I think about it, if we can even maybe use our relationship today as part of this conversation, right? It’s both. I’m really enjoying this conversation with Linzy. This is fantastic. Fun podcast. And what really motivated us both to be here. We both have businesses that we’re trying to grow. We’re trying to support other people, and we’re hoping that our lives will be enriched both relationally and financially by recording this both and

[00:26:38] Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah. And I’m just thinking of a student yesterday on a call in my course Money Skills Therapist who was talking about feeling “the ick” about networking. ‘Cause it’s like, yeah, I want to meet them and I like them, but we also both know that I’m there, you know, to get clients right. So isn’t that disingenuous? Like, isn’t that a bit deceitful, to do that? My question would be, what would be your, your response to that. Because I know what I said. But I’m curious, how would you reply to that?

[00:27:03] Ed: Yeah, well, I’m glad to be saying this and to have this conversation and I’m curious what you said because I think this is, that part of that context and subtlety is like, especially in the business context, in the professional context. It’s okay to want to meet people to advance your career and to advance theirs and to make money. That’s part of the social contract. And so I think it’s understandable you might feel that way because the purpose of family, by and large, is not about advancing your financial interests. And as I say that, paradoxically it is because every family is not designed to turn a profit, like from a peer business standpoint, right?

There’s usually a richer, fuller dynamic of what it means to be and why we’re a family,but this is part of what we’re talking about is like, and yet if we don’t tend to the financial needs of the family, the family has a very hard time functioning. And so being clear about what are the financial motives and needs, both in the family world and the business or professional realm, is okay. Let’s talk about that. Let’s normalize that we have financial needs in these different contexts. The same with friendships. It’s like you may not be making best friends with them because you know they have social status, but maybe you are.

[00:28:15] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:17] Ed: And maybe that’s okay because maybe they see something valuable in you as well. And even if you’re in that friendship context, you’re still going to have to make shared financial decisions. Whether you go to lunch together, coffee together, how often you do it. If you go on trips together, don’t go on trips together, like all the things, do you buy each other gifts? Do you not buy each other gifts?

[00:28:37] Linzy: Still, even in friendship, there’s a financial aspect to that relationship.

[00:28:41] Ed: In every relationship.

[00:28:43] Linzy: Yeah, your answer then to the student about networking would be?

[00:28:50] Ed: So this is more the blunt answer: Get over it.

[00:28:55] Linzy:  Oh, that was blunt.

[00:28:57] Ed: Yeah, that’s why I prefaced it ’cause I was like, that’s not that’s not the therapeutic approach.

[00:29:01] Linzy: Let’s soften and nuance before the thing I really want to say, 

[00:29:04] Ed: Which is just get over it, which, there’s that part of me right that just wants to be direct, but I realize it’s like. Really if I’m in a relationship with that person and let’s talk about those fears. What experiences have you had around networking? Where has networking been slimy to you in the past.

[00:29:20] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:20] Ed: Maybe it was your parents. You know, I’ve had clients talk about, they get brought to their parents’ professional meetings. They get pranced around as the cute little girl or boy. So if there’s some negative associations around networking, then let’s bring those surfaces up. Let’s work with them and acknowledge them so that you can come in as your authentic, full, competent self, not as the child self, or the wounded itself.

[00:29:45] Linzy: Absolutely, and we’ll all have so many child selves and wounded selves of various ages and stages that we carry within, right? That is going to have different reactions to different situations… And so I often find that even just identifying that is a powerful spot to start, which is like, oh, this is really bringing up that thing that happened when I was five, where my parents would parade me around,like a little prop and that felt really terrible, right? And we need to stop and be with those things. We can’t just pass it over and push it aside. We need to actually do whatever processing works for us in our nervous system to just help us ground in the fact that was terrible. and it was really uncomfortable and you didn’t have a voice to do something about it when you were five and now you’re an adult, and the circumstances have changed.

[00:30:27] Ed: I think the other thing too, right,So I just want to own and thank you for welcoming that blunt part of me that showed up out of like, hello, blunt part. Hi, whoa, where did you come from? Nice to see you. Glad you’re here for the conversation, but like, let’s bring this back around to the more real, authentic conversation that networking is about social engagement and connection and depending, for me, I look heavily through the lens of attachment theory. I know there’s plenty of different lenses to look through, but if we had problems socializing through our developmental experiences and joining in friendship groups and knowing where we stand or don’t stand,  and now we’re having to go back into social environments where we’re meeting a sea of strange faces for the first time. It can bring up a lot of those relational wounds about will they accept me? Will they think I’m valuable? Will they think I’m good enough, smart enough, what have you. And so if those are part of your pain points, then how do we work with those to help you feel more confident when you show up in the networking space? And so I think there’s a lot of opportunity there.

[00:31:30] Linzy: That’s a great answer. I like it. So I know that something that you offer too with this beautiful combination of background that you have. Thinking about that blunt part, I was like, is this a firefighter part? I was hearing that a little bit or at least firefighter adjacent. 

[00:31:41] Ed: Right. Right. Yeah. 

[00:31:45] Linzy: So I know that you have this methodology of therapy informed financial planning, which is so exciting for me to hear I love crossovers. Crossovers are so good. So tell me about what that is.

[00:31:59] Ed: Yeah so I like to think about it like a nice table, right? So across the top you have the standard financial planning topics. So the standard financial planning topics are cashflow or spending and expenses. Then it moves over to retirement planning, and then investments, and then taxes, and then insurance, and then estate planning, and if relevant, education funding. And as a financial planner, we get pretty deep knowledge in all of those areas. All the rules, the recommendations, expectations. And we’re trying to weave those things together to get them to create a coherent story and narrative about where you’re going and what opportunities you have. Okay, that’s great, but then we have humans down the column,

[00:32:44] Linzy: Yes.

[00:32:45] Ed: right? And so then we have foundational communication patterns that show up in each of these headings. For me, we have our attachment system that shows up in each of these systems. Then we have how our brain is wired, that shows up then we have our family financial system that’s all showing up in each of these topics. 

[00:33:06] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:08] Ed: Then we have our trauma histories and mental health status. That shows up in all of these places. Then we have our developmental stages that we’ve reached, and there’s different developmental models that I think through each there, and then social class is a huge piece.Now, the one that I haven’t gone into yet because I have my own anxiety about it is gender identity and money.

[00:33:34] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:33:34] Ed: Massive topic. Absolutely huge topic, but that is part of like… I’m aware of it, we do talk about it, but like those are the big headings of spaces that I’m thinking through. How do these lenses help inform how you’re moving through any one of the row headings, so you’re saving and spending or your investments or your estate planning, and so like in a very practical way, a couple that I’m working with where her family had owned land for a couple of generations. She went off, got married, lived her life, struggled for 20 years, then finally got stable into a government, decent education, but low pay. Husband also finally stabilized into their mid forties late mid fifties, mom dies. Inherit $2 million worth of land. They’ve never had that much, and now they don’t know what to do with it. What does this mean? Who am I? Who are you? I thought I would have to keep working in the government job, but maybe I don’t now.

[00:34:39] Linzy: Yeah, right.

[00:34:41] Ed: Relief, but terror.

[00:34:42] Linzy: Totally.

[00:34:43] Ed: Right? And there’s trauma stories around half siblings that are no longer alive, that aren’t benefiting from this land. So it’s all mine. And so there’s guilt about that. And so like the traditional financial planner might look at this scenario and be like, oh, okay, well, so you could retire. We could sell this land. We could convert it into this much income flow for you, and this is what you could live on. What do you think? Okay, you only need half of that? Cool, then we’ll sell half the land. Bada bing bada boom; we’re done. Well for my clients that’s not a sufficient answer.

[00:35:15] Linzy: There’s much deeper questions happening here and a piece that I’m hearing there too is identity, right? You said that like, who am I? Right? If I was kind of a stable but low paid government worker and that’s been who I am, and now I have $2 million, like who am I? Am I still that person? You know, was I ever that person? Yeah, I can just see so much that would get stirred up by, you know, that kind of financial, I’m going to call it an upheaval. We know it’s probably the best kind of upheaval, but still for your nervous system and your life, it is a huge disruption to what was normal.

[00:35:51] Ed: From an identity continuity perspective, it’s a massive shock. Now, and this is where the real shame often happens is because most people would say, well, congratulations. Like, not, congratulations, your mom died, but like, aren’t you excited to have this. 

[00:36:05] Linzy: Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

[00:36:07] Ed: Positive thing. There’s a lot of identity issues complicated by the meaning around this land and assets because, oh by the way, they lived on the land.

[00:36:15] Linzy: Yes.

[00:36:16] Ed: And so the memories associated with it are one set, and then their partner who came to the land as an adult and met them has a whole totally different set of associations of meaning.

[00:36:26] Linzy: Sure.

[00:36:27] Ed: And so they’re advocating, for one, for keeping the land and the other feels ambivalent. Conflict. What do we do? And so how do we help them work through and come to a place together where they feel, and this circles back to that financial intimacy is like, how do we get to a place where you both feel good about how you decide to do with this land? And we don’t have to rush this decision.

[00:36:48] Linzy: Totally. Yeah, and that work that you do, is that financial planning? Like is it in the financial planning bucket? Is it therapy? Like what is that?

[00:36:59] Ed: Yeah, so this is a great question, right? It’s an open and ongoing process and conversation. So for me, I want practice integratively, right? I want to bring the therapy skills and knowledge right into the planning process. And so when I’m doing that in the therapy informed financial planning process, I charge a retainer of $600 a month for that and then if it can go up from there if there’s money to be managed, but that’s because I’m spending the in session time with folks and I’m usually out of the session doing analysis research, right? And so I find that the retainer model works really well for that. For some clients, as the firm is growing and I’m bringing on other practitioners, have Dr. Christine Hargrove, who has her PhD from UGA is a specialist in ADHD and money, and she’s a therapist. And so she stays in the financial therapy lane. She’s not getting into tax planning, she’s not figuring out how’s your investment allocation? Is it accurate for you? She will get into cash flow.

Like that’s just basic stuff. So some of the more technical financial planning topics, not even part of her purview. But she’s really about how are you navigating money for yourself? What feelings, identity stuff comes up, emotions, behaviors. And she stays in that lane and helps people get more confident. Now on the other side, I have a financial planner that I’ve hired who’s 15 years of wealth management experience, knows all the ins and outs of wealth management, and she’s developing some of the therapy skills, but she’s really focused on helping people walk through the planning process. She’s not as deeply focused on understanding. She’s learning about how humans learn, heal, and grow, but that’s not her super strength. 

[00:38:42] Ed: So I’m fostering that piece for her, but also knowing there’s going to be limits on what she’s able to do in the context of financial planning.

[00:38:50] Linzy: Sure.

[00:38:50] Ed: So the reality is, Linzy, there’s just not going to be many people that want to be a full financial planner and a full therapist integrated. And I’m like, but I’m going to change that. We’ll, we will change that. We’re going to…

[00:39:01] Linzy: For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:03] Ed: You know, and like that’s where the field of financial therapy and the association is so helpful. I was listening to another industry podcast, and this guy’s been a financial planner for 15 years and went back, and got his marriage and family therapy degree. And so what people don’t realize is in the field of therapists, though, there are a number of us that have business backgrounds and finance backgrounds but they’ve never been invited to integrate that knowledge and experience into their therapy practice. So that’s why I love, love the work you’re doing. Sorry, I just have to say like, I’m so excited that you’re bringing them together.

[00:39:34] Linzy: Yes, yeah, I’m also one of those crossover kids. We’ve, even in our marketing used a Venn diagram where it’s like people who are like passionate about money and finance and like people who are really into feelings and like the overlap between those two, and there’s this very small slice that like you and I occupy, and I’ve met some other folks out there who often go on to become like financial therapists or have that background and then switch careers like…

There’s not a huge overlap, because I think it’s two different types of intelligence, really. Like it’s two different areas to get really fired up and it just happens to be, do you have a brain that really enjoys both of those things? And I did a lot of learning last year about giftedness and the one definition of giftedness that I ascribe to is when you have multiple kinds of intelligence so you can bring together these very distinct ways of thinking or skill sets in this new, unique way. And that’s what I really hear that you’re doing here, right? If you’re bringing together these two things that often are siloed and you’re integrating them because they’re so connected that it’s better to have those conversations just at the same time.

[00:40:36] Ed: In an integrated way, and I think it is possible. I think we don’t have the learning environments to do it yet. I think that’s what the field of financial therapy is helping to change is, you know, like structurally, the business school is a completely different college than the School of Humanities most of the time.

[00:40:54] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:40:55] Ed: And so maybe as an undergraduate you get a little bit of overlap in classes, but like not often and usually at that developmental stage, you’re maybe not so interested in the other side of things.

[00:41:04] Linzy: No, I remember even leaning very hard towards the end of high school, I took the minimum amount of math classes required. As soon as I was done, I was like, see ya.

[00:41:13] Ed: Bye.

[00:41:15] Linzy: I even had this amazing math teacher,Mr. Aero who, when I told him I wasn’t taking any more mathematics, he said in some, I can’t remember the exact wording. It was a while ago. but something like, like, that was a great tragedy to like mathematics, that I wouldn’t be there.

[00:41:28] Ed: Oh, ouch. No.

[00:41:30] Linzy: But again, similar to what you’re saying, like I was just, at that point in my life, I was really leaning into my arts side and writing and being able to do as much of that as possible. It can be hard to cultivate those skill sets at the same time.

[00:41:43] Ed: Yeah, I for me at least, right. Part of our developmental journey is usually we have to split off parts of ourself to become more focused on one part and part of the big art of adult development from my perspective, is to be able to become whole again and integrate all these pieces that we have the capacity to actually be interested in, but we shut them down by usually a lot of relational, cultural conditioning, and so reclaiming our full humanity and capacity to engage with all of these pieces is part of the process, too.

[00:42:16] Linzy: I’m going to make that your mic drop quote. We’re going to wrap up there. That was good. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. This has been such a treat, such a great conversation. If folks want to get further into your world, learn more about you, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:42:29] Ed: Yeah, all the best things are at Healthy Love and money.com. There’s an active blog, there’s an active podcast, and then of course the professional services are listed there as well.

[00:42:38] Linzy: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[00:42:41] Ed: Linzy, it’s been a delight. Thank you.

[00:42:54] Linzy: I so appreciate Ed bringing his specific kind of backpack full of different knowledge and perspectives onto the podcast today. I was chatting with him after the podcast about how I do feel like we’re both kind of financial pioneers, in these spaces, bringing our own blends of skills and also our interests. And I so appreciate Ed really bringing his crossover skills as a therapist and a financial planner to couples around money. I know so many therapists that I work with in Money Skills for Therapists or Money Skills for Group Practice Owners have their own world of stuff happening with their partner around money.

[00:43:30] So it’s so important and foundational that we work on our own relationships with money, that we’re able to be with money, as Ed was talking about, be able to notice all the different aspects of our lives that have impacted our relationship with money start to shift and change how we feel about money and what I teach is helping you have those systems in your business to then make money really work and make sure that it goes where you want it to go. You’re getting paid well, all those foundational, practical things. But then there’s this whole other aspect to money around your intimate relationship. And as Ed mentioned, even your intimate relationships, relationships with siblings and parents and friends where money also comes into play. So just such rich, rich territory here to explore. A very loaded territory, of course, for all of us, but I so appreciate Ed bringing this topic today and starting to help us like understand just all the nuance that goes into money and why money can be so hard, but that also helps us see all the spots where we can intervene and change how we talk about money, with the people that we love. So thank you to Ed for coming on the podcast.

[00:44:33] If you’re interested in working with me, I have two courses for therapists to help you change your relationship with money, really get it working for you in your practice. Our foundational course is Money Skills for a Therapist. This is our course for solo practitioners. The gateway into that course is my masterclass, which is called the four Step Framework to Getting Your Private Practice Finances in order. You can think about that as like my intake process. That’s where I will walk you through. The biggest mistakes that therapists make in their private practice. I will walk you through my framework with how I help therapists change their relationship with money and get it working for them. And that’s also your invite to work with me and Money Skills For Therapists. So if you are curious about working with me, check out the masterclass. The link is in our show notes to learn more about money skills for therapists. Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is for folks as it says, running a group practice, that is a course that I only run once or twice a year, so if you’re interested in that course, you can click on the link in the show notes to get on the wait list to make sure you hear about it the next time the door’s open for money skills group practice owners,

[00:45:30] That is my course that helps you be the empowered financial leader of your group practice ’cause just like Ed was talking about money and families, money and group practice is just a much more complicated beast. There’s a lot more going on and we dig into all of that in Money Skills For Group Practice Owners.

[00:45:44] So thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Megan: The investors and the founders at times look into the mental health system and they see all these therapists who are working at a community mental health system and being wildly underpaid they’re seeing, the dollar signs kind of fly away. I think the mistake they make is that the therapists themselves do not also see those dollar signs flying away. Therapists are not idiots. They know exactly how much they’re worth. It’s not an inefficiency, it’s an intentional donation.

[00:00:23] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is with Megan Cornish. Megan Cornish is a social worker turned writer who works with some large, venture funded online platforms and in her work has really become aware of the way that some of these large platforms who we are not going to explicitly name in this episode, to be clear, are exploiting therapists and are a risk to therapists and the impact on the therapy industry. So today, Megan and I talk about how these companies tend to work. These are venture backed, where there’s lots of funding that’s going into these large companies, that make mental health care accessible, but don’t necessarily pay therapists.

[00:01:31] We talk about some of the risks that come with working with these companies. If you are working with these companies, how to get the most out of it, right? What are productive ways that you can work with these companies to protect yourself? How to be savvy about what companies to work with, what not to, and we talk about her online community, which is about sharing this information to make sure that therapists, we protect ourselves, from large tech that is coming into our space and isn’t interested in mental health outcomes and isn’t interested in our wellbeing but who answers to their investors? and that is what they are set up to do. So a very informative conversation today. We cover a lot of ground. Megan brings in a lot of knowledge about startups and tech and how these venture capital businesses work. That has certainly been new information to me, and I think will be new information to most folks listening helpful for us to understand who’s coming into our space and how they work and what their metrics of success are, and what we can do to work with them productively, and also protect ourselves and our industry against them.

[00:02:26] Here is my conversation with Megan Cornish. So, Megan, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:40] Megan: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:41] Linzy: I am very excited to have you here. We have had our kind of pre-chat thinking about having this conversation a long time ago and so it’s been on my mind but before we dig in, and there’s so much to dig into,

[00:02:52] Megan: Yes.

[00:02:52] Linzy: Can you tell folks a little bit about your trajectory and what you do?

[00:02:57] Megan: Yeah, absolutely. So I’m a licensed clinical social worker. I started with my bachelor’s degree in social work and worked in nursing homes and stuff, and very quickly was like, I need to go get my master’s so I can do more direct kind of care type things. So I got my master’s and I spent several years finding out where I wanted to land and landed in my social work dream job, which was embedded in a school district doing therapy with,middle schoolers and high schoolers and I was on a teacher contract so I didn’t have to deal with insurance.

[00:03:23] It was a dream and then covid happened, which is a line in most people’s stories. My husband, who was a charge nurse of an ICU in the northwest, decided that he wanted to go back to school, to increase his skillset. So we moved across the country to North Carolina, and we sold our house to fund that move and I had two kids at the time, couldn’t really find a social work job that I could just jump right into that would pay as much as I would pay in childcare. So we’re kinda like, I’m going to try and just live off this budget that we have for three years and see, I’ve always kind of had a writing side hustle just to make like coffee money and stuff. You know, it was always just like, I’ll write your blog for, you know, a hundred bucks and,so I was like, I’ll see if I can expand our budget with this. Started doing that, was writing a lot of random stuff,and was looking at all these mental health companies that were arriving on the scene and reading some of their blogs and their emails andI was pretty sure that they did not have a therapist on the team because they would make these really obvious mistakes or these statements. I’m like, a therapist would not and should not ever say that. 

[00:04:23] Linzy: Yes.

[00:04:24] Megan: I just started reaching out and said, Hey, like, I noticed you said X. Really, you should say Y. Here’s y. Can I help you? And they were like, “yes, please.” So I started getting a lot of interesting work writing blogs, just doing some research on new topics and interviewing therapists and they were presenting that view, and that’s kind of how I got my start. Now I’ve gotten to work with a lot of interesting companies like Elios and Alma, and, I’ve had like short term contracts like ULA and Grow, just mostly writing content,like blogs and or, um,occasionally I get a fun consulting job where I get to tell them everything they’re doing wrong. So I like that one.

[00:05:01] Linzy: Fun. Yeah. And all these companies, ’cause I’m actually not familiar with this whole landscape all the companies that you’re naming are, how would you describe what these companies are?

[00:05:09] Megan: So there’s a wide variety of companies. I actually have a Venn diagram hanging up here. On the left are companies that you work for. On the right are companies that work for you, and in the middle are companies that kind of work for you and you work for them. So on the left we’re going to talk about, like, Headspace. Those companies you work for, or Charlie Health, you’re going to get hired. They’re going to provide everything. You’re going to do things according to the way that they want it done. On the right are tools, like simple practice or out practice or mental health match, all these companies that are going to help you with different parts of your practice. And in the middle you’ve got Alma or Octave, where they’re going to give you some tools and you’re going to be a contractor, but also you’re going to probably have to do some marketing yourself or that

[00:05:49] Linzy: Okay.

[00:05:50] Megan: So I’ve worked with all three categories.

[00:05:52] Linzy: Yes. Okay, and all of these categories, if we were going to summarize, like they’re kind of like tech in the therapist space.

[00:06:00] Megan: Yeah. Mental health tech.

[00:06:02] Linzy: Yes. Okay. Mental health tech startups. Okay so that’s kind of the umbrella. And as you said, it’s everything from companies that create the container that you can work within. Like basically kind of almost like an online group practice to like the tools that we use to this kind of blend, this blend in the middle. There’s been a lot of discussion about these kinds of companies, which I feel like is a lot of discussion that sometimes we are emotional and confused, but not necessarily clear on what is happening with these companies.

[00:06:26] What is the story here? And so I’m curious from your perspective of having worked with many of these companies and being a therapist who’s also interfacing with kind of the business side of these companies, like why should therapists care about the fact that these tech companies are coming into the therapy space?

[00:06:45] Megan: This is a great question. Therapists should absolutely care,and pay attention to what’s happening because the more that I see what’s happening, the more I’m convinced that these companies don’t actually have to succeed for very long on their own merits. They just have to outlast private practices,because they’re putting a ton of money into marketing. So let me explain how a startup happens. Venture capital is the name, this form of investing that says we need to find the Googles.

[00:07:11] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:11] Megan: Ubers and invest in them so we can make a lot of money, but there’s a problem that there’s a lot of startups who say that they’re going to be Google and like you’re not really sure if it’s the right time or right place, or even a good idea. So they end up giving tons of money to hundreds of startups,and only one or two of them need to be the next Google to make back all that money and more. But as a rule, they have to throw only money at startups that profess to have the potential to make that kind of money. Otherwise, if you don’t think you can make that kind of money, then why would they give you investment dollars? And the amount of return that these investors want is like,they want to see that you have at least an 80% profit margin. That’s like what they’re shooting for, which is wild, especially in healthcare.

[00:07:56] The reason why venture funding has gotten any traction at all, even outside the mental health space, is there are a lot of really good ideas that only work if you have a lot of money to start. With social media being an example,no one’s going to be on Facebook if the only people on Facebook are in your neighborhood Like say, Hey, get on Facebook. They had a really good idea. They got some some traction., but to make it really explode the way it did, they had to have advertising dollars to get everybody on it, and that’s what made it valuable

[00:08:23] Megan: Or if you have a tech that’s highly expensive to produce or to design. And then you can replicate it. So, software especially is like that. Software might take a lot of money to design the first time, but then you can sell it an infinite number of times. So that’s kind of the model that they’re looking for. 

[00:08:37] Linzy: Right. So there’s this huge front end investment of money that goes into that. 

[00:08:41] Megan: Exactly. So mental health,tech especially the ones that provide therapy. I think they are just having to doubt less private practice because I know that the amount of money they’re spending on marketing is not sustainable. I mean, anyone who’s listened to a podcast these days had just heard an ad for a certain company, I won’t name because I don’t want to. 

[00:08:59] Linzy: Yeah. Me neither.

[00:09:00] Megan: They spend so much money on advertising. They’re not making that much money back. They are assuming that they’re going to get the corner on the market, drive everyone else outta business and then they won’t need to spend as much on advertising because they’re going to be the biggest or the only player in the space. 

[00:09:13] Linzy: Right. So it’s kind of a plan to become a monopoly, right? Outspend everybody at the beginning, be the last company standing and then you can do whatever. ’cause you don’t have competitors.

[00:09:21] Megan: Exactly. Exactly

[00:09:23] Linzy: Which, yeah. 

[00:09:25] Megan: I hate what’s happening because therapists deserve better. They work hard. That’s their license on the wall. I am trying to find and understand more and explain more the ways that therapists can outlast these companies instead,as well as the companies only succeed.with therapists. It’s a total moral injury situation where it’s like, okay, I have to pay my bills. So do I work with this company or do I stand on principle? I know that everyone has to decide that for themselves, but as a group collective, there’s a lot more protections, especially if we move our work towards companies that are doing it, quote unquote the right way and away from companies that are determined to just slash and burn and take profit and all that.

[00:10:05] Linzy: Yeah. ’cause like the companies that are doing it the wrong way, who we will certainly not name because we don’t need that in our lives.

[00:10:10] Megan: A lot of litigation dollars too.

[00:10:12] Linzy: So those companies, what do you see are some of the moves that they start to make that hurt therapists? Because at the beginning I’m hearing there’s tons of advertising. There’s like this big, like the party’s over here, like everybody comes here and so they’re also, I’m assuming, going to be maybe treating their therapist a little better at the beginning. It’s a bit of a honeymoon phase, right? Like they’re trying to like, get everybody into the party. How does that sometimes play out, in the life of these companies?

[00:10:35] Megan: So, they start getting some traction as they move through their series. startups have series rounds. Which is funding, and they start with seed, which is just a little bit to get started. In every round you’re supposed to get a valuation to say how much you’re worth. And based on that, the investors will say, okay, well I’ll give you, you know, million, however many dollars for however many shares.

[00:10:59] To prove their valuations, to get those higher, they have to show their profit and loss. So the further they get, the more pressure they are from previous investors and potential future investors to prove that the value is high. So that means that they’re going to start cutting wages or try to increase productivity of their therapist by increasing caseloads and that’s the biggest thing I see. I mean, I heard someone, brag that their therapist had the option to go as low as 25 clients,

[00:11:28] Linzy: Wow.

[00:11:29] Megan: And I was like, I’m not so sure. You should be so proud of that.

[00:11:32] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

[00:11:33] Megan: That’s like, hard stop, almost high end. I mean, I’ve known a few therapists who just do tons and love it and, more powerful to them, but most people I know can’t manage that.

[00:11:41] Linzy: Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, certainly when I was a therapist, 16 was my max. yeah and that was like, I am done. I am toast. 

[00:11:48] Megan: Yeah, it’s totally different they want to play, I think, by the healthcare playbook, but I can go to a cardiologist and the next week I can go to different one and the next one I can go to a different one and they’ll just glance at my chart. They can pick up right where the last person left and therapy is not like that. 

[00:12:02] Linzy: No.

[00:12:03] Megan: Your therapist needs to remember and be present and I mean, I always tell people, can you imagine if you told some of your deepest darkest secrets in the next week? They were like. Like, I can’t remember what we talked about or like, can you Yeah.

[00:12:16] Linzy: Yeah, yeah, what you, what you have to hold is huge. I remember a friend of mine,went to a therapist and had a first session and talked about her life and talked about her moms and growing up, you know, having two moms and then the next week she comes back and the therapist was like, so, like, your mom and dad, dah, dah, dah. She was like, what? Like, you didn’t listen to anything I said, and yeah, the vulnerability that our clients bring to us, there’s so much labor that goes into the work that we do outside of that hour. To, hold and retain and process and be able to open up that page again when that client comes back in to do effective therapeutic work.

[00:12:49] Megan: Yeah and not to mention that having stress lowers our ability to carry that.

[00:12:54] Linzy: True story. Okay. So. I’m really curious. This piece about the 80% profit is sticking in my brain ’cause I’m like, what? That’s my initial response. ‘Cause when I think about the work that I do, say with group practice owners,who have practices that are in the hundreds of thousands or maybe low millions,when I’m talking to them about what a sustainable business looks like, I am encouraging them to hit that 10 to 15% profit.

[00:13:18] Right, like just that sustainable, like the oxygen normal I always tell them, if you’re higher than that, something’s going to break, right? Either you’re going to break, you’re underpaid, your team is underpaid, your systems are underdeveloped. You don’t have a big enough admin team. There’s something that’s breaking, is my impression. You know, if you start to be above that, like 15% max, we’re talking about businesses that are aiming for 80% profit. How do they even do that? Like, I’m thinking about the sessions, for instance. Are there therapists getting paid less than 20%? Like, help me understand how these numbers could even possibly work.

[00:13:51] Megan: It’s a question I ask, I, I told an investor once, I was like, I think that some of these founders are just taking you guys

[00:13:57] Linzy: Yeah. 

[00:13:58] Megan:Like that’s in these pitch sessions. There’s just no way so there is some logic to it. not great logic, but some of these companies have been able to negotiate higher rates because of system effects, because they’re not having ghost networks, that kind of stuff that, originally insurers were really excited about. And so insurance payers did not want to run afoul of these,parody laws, and they saw these companies as a good way to just in one fell swoop. Let’s just pay higher rates for these companies. They’ll take care of our access issues that are making it hard. At a certain point last year, it seemed like the payers realized that people having access to healthcare meant that people were going to indeed access use healthcare

[00:14:39] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:14:41] Megan: We’re like, wait a second, we actually don’t want to pay for this and so then they started retracting their higher rates,that’s still kind of up there. Some are still getting higher. Some are like losing their higher rates. It’s a market force that is just so unpredictable right now. So that’s one of the ways that they are justifying it. There’s talk about doing outcome-based reimbursements with payers, that kind of stuff, again. I wouldn’t say it’s a complete racket. I would say,occasionally there is a business that I know is just not going to work out and that any therapist with any brains would be able to say it’s not going to work out. There are some companies that I feel like are doing a really great job, and they’re just really trying to run it like shoestring budget for support as much as possible and that’s their angle and if they can make that work, more power to them. I’ve learned that I shouldn’t publicly state a company is good because a week or two later they’ll do something and then people come after me.

[00:15:36] Linzy: Yes. You are not, you are not part of those companies, and therefore you don’t control what they do.

[00:15:40] Megan: There are, there are a few that I have seen consistently try to make good decisions. So, there’s that.

[00:15:45] Linzy: Yeah, because just when I think about even that as a goal. 80% profit. And when you mention payers, just to clarify for folks listening,payers refers to insurance companies, right? So that’s the business phrase for it. I had somebody the other day I was chatting with, he was like, and it’s all about payers. I was like, sorry, what’s payers? He’s like insurance companies. I was like, oh, okay. so there’s this level of business speak that we don’t actually speak as therapists, right? Because we’re on the other side of the business equation. Like in the service delivery. There’s this whole world of the way that money moves between these companies that therapists we are totally disconnected from. and I feel like the term payer is a great example of that, so that’s where the money is, but yeah, ’cause like, I’m just going to stick here for one more second then I promise we’ll move on. If it’s 80% profit, let’s say a payer is compensating, an insurance company is paying, I dunno, $130 for that session, right? For the service that’s rendered, does that mean that the wage that the company is setting for the clinician is less than 20% of that reimbursement? 

[00:16:49] Megan: So that stat that I got, it’s from behavioral health business and it’s a quote from an investor who says 60, like that traditional, VC funds look for 80% business margins, but they will occasionally go down to 65%, which still

[00:17:03] Linzy: It’s still crazy, right? Yeah, because it’s just a great illustration there. I think of, first of all, as you say, some of it is a racket like that’s never going to work, but also it’s so disconnected from how healthcare works, right? And how the therapy industry works, where like the heavy lift of that is on the worker, the therapist, right? And we’re not doing work that is light and repeatable and that somebody else can just step in. We’re building therapeutic relationships with people that have to last for years sometimes to have effectiveness, certainly at least months and as we mentioned earlier, you have to remember if somebody has two moms or a mom and a dad, like stuff, like, that’s really important.

[00:17:36] The compensation for that work has to be high. Like we can’t work 40 hours a week. Yeah, we can’t even work 25 hours a week, most of us, without eventually just like, literally dying. That’s how I feel about it when I think about 25 hours a week. I’m like, oh, I could not. And so it kind of feels like they’re trying to cram a square peg in a round hole. Our industry doesn’t fit these rules of these unicorn companies that end up having like a billion dollar valuation. Healthcare is not very profitable and it shouldn’t be. 

[00:18:03] Megan: Yeah,

[00:18:04] Linzy: Because it’s not something that you can just copy paste a thousand times, right? Like, it’s not, like you said, like a software that you can make and then sell a hundred thousand times. It’s very specific, every single session is different and individual and catered and takes a huge amount of energy from the therapist. So it just seems like such a mismatch.

[00:18:21] Megan: A mismatch. Yes, it really does. I was talking to someone about this concept and they were explaining that,founders they’re looking for inefficiencies in systems and to solve that problem and in some way that also is profitable and I think what happens is the investors and the founders at times look into the mental health system and they see all these therapists who are working at like community mental health system and this being like wildly underpaid they’re seeing, the dollar signs kind of fly away from that situation. I think the mistake they make is that the therapists themselves do not also see those dollar signs flying away. Therapists are not idiots. They know exactly how much they’re worth, and they are intentionally donating their value to their

[00:19:06] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:07] Megan: Like it’s not an inefficiency, it’s an intentional donation, which is why, it always cracks me up when founders are so confused at why therapists are mad. Well, because if someone is getting rich off our work, it better damn well be us.

[00:19:19] Linzy: Yes, right, exactly,and that’s, such an important distinction to make is, you know, folks will choose to work for insurance companies or work in community mental health because they want to be accessible, but they’re choosing to earn less money in order to contribute to their community.

[00:19:34] Megan: Yeah, and to live according to them. 

[00:19:35] Linzy: Yeah, but that’s very different from watching some bro in California buy a second yacht off of your work. That doesn’t give you quite the same touchy feely loveliness that you might get from, you know, being able to work pro bono or in community mental health. Interesting. Okay, yes, so as therapists that are maybe already working with some of these companies, considering working with some of these companies. I often see this as a way that people are saying, I just want to get started in my practice. It’s scary to learn how to market and do finances and all these things when I can just plug myself into this platform that already works. If people are considering working with these companies already, how can they be savvy about navigating this landscape?

[00:20:16] Megan: Yeah. I think the most important thing is that therapists need to have their parachute ready.

[00:20:20] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:20:21] Megan: These things changed so quickly. Even the people that wrote the contract that you signed today might not be employed by that company in a few months. Things are going to change. Use the companies to serve your business, but always know that it’s your business and have your backup plan. If you’re going to work with them, identify the skills that are deficient enough that you feel like you have to work with them and be intentional about increasing those skills during your time there. Just be ready to leave and not look back when it becomes clear that they’re no longer setting you and your clients up for success. Your mileage may vary on this piece of advice, but I have recently started telling therapists,when you first start meeting a client, you should have your own website, first of all. When you first start meeting a client,just say, my clients are very important to me. I want you to know if ever there’s a time where I am abruptly gone from this company, that it may not be in my control, and you can reach out to me at my website.

[00:21:12] Linzy: Yes, yes.

[00:21:14] Megan: Because they’ve got weird non-compete agreements and you may not have access to your systems and stuff like that. I’ve heard stories of therapists literally logging on to find that they don’t have access anymore and there’s been an email sent out that says,your therapist is no longer with the company, but here’s three more therapists you can meet with as if they’re just interchangeable so that’s kind of like a safeguard

[00:21:32] Linzy: Right. Just like plant that seed from the beginning

[00:21:34] Megan: Exactly. Like, come find me online. Yes.

[00:21:38] Linzy: And I’m curious, you asked if my morals vary on that. Do you see folks feel like we should have a kind of allegiance to those companies and not tell people how to find us?

[00:21:48] Megan: No, I just,the miles may vary because I don’t want to tell anyone. I don’t know what the contracts say. I don’t want to give any advice that might get someone sued, but I think there’s probably ways to do it in a non

[00:22:02] Linzy: I think so and I think that, that, um, that beautiful, just in case, just so you know, if one day planting that seed,I think is very strategic and I, I love what you’re saying about have your parachute ’cause it makes me think about in the book, Radical Candor, she talks about like kind of two types of employees. There’s rock stars who stick around. They’re very loyal, like they’re there for the long run and then there’s shooting stars who are people who are passing through and what I’m hearing is you should always be a shooting star when you’re using these services. Like be part of that platform, because as you say, you’re like, okay, marketing is really hard for me.

[00:22:32] I need to hit the ground running, so I’m going to work for this, but then I’m also going to work on my marketing skills. It’s not actually a stable environment where you know that you can stay even if you want to. Let this be your pathway towards private practice to support you on that journey, but don’t, don’t plan to live there because what I’m hearing is like the furniture might get rearranged and there might be things totally changed overnight. You don’t have control over that business at all.

[00:22:53] Megan: Yeah, and often even the founders don’t. They might start with great intentions, but once investors get involved, there’s a board and you have to abide by the decisions of the board. 

[00:23:02] Linzy: I’m thinking about that um, who was that AI guy, who got fired suddenly and then I think they brought him back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s like, it can even be like your brainchild but once you get investors involved, they’re like, I don’t know. I think we need new leadership. Like, yeah,these are such fickle creatures.

[00:23:16] Megan: They bring in their tech bro playbook, which I’m sure worked really great if you were building tech, but mental health is another beast.

[00:23:24] Linzy: So for folks who then,already have a practice or know, like, okay, I’m working with these platforms now, but yes, I do want to get into my own practice. How can we protect our businesses and our practices against this larger force at play, right? Where there is like super cheap therapy available online. So conveniently, like, we have a lot of marketing to compete with, if nothing else. What can we do to protect our practices from this?

[00:23:48] Megan: I think that’s a good question.

[00:23:50] Linzy: So I started a Facebook group. It’s called Fit Check for Therapists. It’s not a burn-the-system-to-the-ground place, even though some people want it to be. It’s a “share information so that we can be wise about the companies that we work for” place. 

[00:24:05] Megan: So if you have a question about a company you’re interviewing with or you have information you want to share, you can hop on there. Hopefully I can keep that running as long as possible. I think doing your research asking good questions is good because strategically we need to outlast companies that don’t have our best interests in mind. So continuing to move towards companies that only make decisions that we agree with, who only make concessions that we can understand. And for the sake of clients or for the sake of sustainability. Not for the sake of profit. 

[00:24:38] Linzy: If you’re going to be with these companies, be savvy, think about: what is the model here?

[00:24:43] Megan: Yes, some companies, there’s two companies in the middle that I talked about that work for you and you work for them and one of them charges Mm-hmm. And a lot of people are like, well, I go to the one that doesn’t charge because why would I pay for it? But one of the things I think is important to remember is that if you are not paying, then you’re not a customer. And it’s easier for a company to communicate, keeping you happy to investors if you are a customer. So there’s a value in paying a company,because it means that part of the business model is keeping you happy and around and not just extracting as much value as possible.

[00:25:16] Linzy: Well, and it makes me think too about the phrase about social media, where it’s like, if you’re not paying, then like you are the product.

[00:25:21] Megan: Yes,

[00:25:22] Linzy: If it’s free, then how are they making money from you if you’re not paying to be part of it?

[00:25:27] Megan: Exactly.

[00:25:28] Linzy: Yeah. It’s those hidden costs. In terms of, you know, folks who are outside of those systems who are like running a private practice and,having to compete, like what do you suggest about how therapists we should be thinking about this issue? Like, should we be talking to each other? what do we do here? When I feel like it’s like we’re on the playground and there’s some really big tech bro bullies who come on the playground. And we’re like, Who’s that? They’re so mean. I don’t even know all the words for all the ways that they’re mean. All this language that we don’t even think about. ’cause we don’t think about maximizing profit. We think about taking care of people, right? What can we do to kind of protect our industry, protect ourselves? 

[00:26:02] Megan: Yeah. I’m trying not to be defeatist. I’m not saying it’s all going down. I just wonder if we’ve gotta break the system before it will all be fixed. 

[00:26:08] Linzy: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] Megan: I was very much all for like, taking insurance, that kind of stuff. The more I see how much of a problem payers are in the system, the more I’m like, why should their business success be built on the backs of our vague sense of guilt around access? I am more and more on: go private pay if once you’ve got the pipeline of referrals and intentionally reserve two or three, either sliding scale or pro bono slots, that’s the game plan. I know that access is going to go down because of that, but hopefully that will put pressure on the system enough that they’re going to have to increase reimbursements, right?

[00:26:45] Linzy: Right, I’ve talked about this with therapists over the years, and eventually I’ve kind of come to the phrase of like, you can’t break yourself to fix the system because when we break ourselves, we’re not even fixing the system. In fact, like if you are working for, for example, an insurance company directly or through one of these platforms and you’re underpaid and exhausted, they’re profiting off of you. There is profit, it’s just you’re not seeing the profit. Like there is money that is being made,but it’s not being made by you. and so that actually is just upholding a system where people have figured out how to make money off of healthcare without paying healthcare workers well, and we’re actually just participating in that system.

[00:27:17] When folks come into money skills therapists, sometimes I think people are scared that I’m going to tell them, you have to go off insurance and you don’t. Because I believe that every private practice has its own equation of how to make the money work and for some folks. They can offer a blend of insurance or private pay, or they can offer all insurance because their mortgage is paid. They live in a low-cost area. There are so many scenarios where insurance can be part of a healthy picture, but for many folks it isn’t and when we’re sacrificing ourselves, we’re not actually changing the system at all. We are just upholding the system as it currently exists.

[00:27:50] Megan: Yeah, there’s a lot of places that have low paid at the bottom, service workers, like I think about like fast food, and I don’t think that they should be paid super low either, but in those situations, the company is providing the product but therapists show up fully equipped with everything they need to do therapy. The company is not providing anything other than occasionally like administrative assistance and occasionally a client pipeline. 

[00:28:12] Linzy: Right? Yes.

[00:28:13] Megan: So just maintain that sense of self-assurance in your license and that you’re providing the product that this company is selling, so making sure that they are reimbursing. 

[00:28:24] Linzy: You are the value. If you weren’t there, they don’t have anything without you really connecting with that power that you have. 

[00:28:30] Megan: Yes,

[00:28:30] Linzy: Yeah. That’s a great point to end on. Thank you. Thank you so much, Megan. This has been so informative. If folks are interested in getting further into your world and what you do, tell us again about the Facebook group and where else they can find you.

[00:28:43] Megan: Well, you can find me on LinkedIn, Megan Cornish. I also have a Facebook group. Let me just double check that link is front and center so that anyone who’s looking to join the Facebook group can just click on it and get

[00:28:52] Linzy: Perfect. Okay, wonderful. So yeah, you can check out The Fit Check For Therapists Facebook group where you can just get information. This is the closest that we can maybe get to unionizing at this moment. Which is at least openly talking about what you’re getting compensated for: where is it good to work, where isn’t it? Thank you so much, Megan, for doing this work and for bringing this information to therapists. ’cause this is not what we live and breathe. So it’s nice to have this information to understand kind of how folks are thinking about us outside of our space. Thank you so much.

[00:29:20] Megan: Cool. Thank you for having me.

[00:29:31] Linzy: This conversation with Megan has my wheels turning in multiple ways, but one of the things that I think about is how I often talk with therapists about how we end up reluctantly becoming business owners. Rarely do therapists go into private practice or health practitioners go into private practice because we wanted to own a business and we have an MBA, and we love business. We tend to go into a private practice because we want to serve our clients and we want to do it our way, right? And so we accidentally become business owners and the work that I do with therapists is helping us with that. Foundational financial literacy that’s what we do in my skills for therapists. Really just understanding how business finances work, working on your own relationship with money, getting your really like your feet under you. And then with the group practice course, I help folks with that financial leadership of what do strategic decisions around money look like, but all of these pieces are actually, I would say almost like a drop in the bucket compared to the kind of business knowledge and savvy and expertise that these massive companies are bringing into our space, right?

[00:30:28] Like they are operating on a very different set of rules and even a different set of ethics than we are when it comes to business and. therapists becoming educated and clear on money and how it works and our value and the value of our work, and doing the things that we can do, as Megan said, to make sure that we have our parachutes, that if you are working for a large company, that might change on a whim, that you have your private practice ready to go, that you’re working on those skills that you know are a deficit area for you.

[00:31:01] We need to do these things to be able to preserve ourselves in this landscape, right? Like we have. It feels like there’s some kind of big kids who come on the playground. They’re playing by a different playbook than we are. and we need to make sure that we have the financial literacy and the clarity about our own values and skills to hold our ground and make decisions that are good for us, and make decisions that, as Megan said, might shake up the system. By refusing to be exploited by these large companies, which include insurance companies too, that make money off of us, and hold our ground and, learn enough about business, become competent enough with business that we don’t end up basically serving these large companies at our own detriment.’Cause whenever therapists are not doing well, whenever we are tired or depleted, that is also translating into our work with our clients, right? We are not showing up as our best selves. We are not able to be fully present. We are not able to be our most creative and responsive and dynamic, when we are exhausted and tired and stressed about money.

[00:31:59] And so there’s just so many ripple effects that come from us being plugged into these larger systems that don’t care about us, but certainly. A huge part of the answer is that we need to develop the literacy and the confidence to be able to run our own businesses successfully so we don’t get swallowed up by these larger systems. And so that if we are choosing to participate in these systems, we’re doing so because we’re clear that this is actually sustainable for us and our family can be okay and our own financial health will be okay even if we’re working with some of these systems that don’t compensate us well and we’ve made a conscious decision that it’s worth it.

[00:32:29] So many pieces here. I so appreciate Megan coming and bringing this knowledge to us today and certainly check out her Facebook group. If you want to be part of conversations about where are the better places to work, what is happening in these different companies and in this industry and check her out on LinkedIn to get into her world. So thanks to Megan for coming on the podcast today. If you are enjoying the podcast, you are welcome to leave me a review. We have a beautiful link in the show notes that will take you to whatever platform makes sense for you to leave a review.

[00:32:58] That’s a really helpful way for folks to find us, whether you just want to leave a star rating or share what you appreciate about the podcast, that’s always a really lovely thing. A lovely way for you to support the podcast and if you are interested in working with me. The way to do that is through my two courses, either money skills for therapists for solo practitioners, or money skills for group practice owners, and we will put the link in the show notes, for how to get into both of those worlds. I would be happy to support you in having your business finances actually work for you and getting that grounding and financial confidence so that you can be well and you’re financially taken care of and somebody else is un-profiting off of you. So thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:04] Jessica: I think just giving the VA trust is huge, too. I know it feels so scary, but when they don’t feel micromanaged and you trust them, I feel like… there’s more purpose for them and they feel like more a part of your business and the bigger picture. It’s tough. It’s just finding the right person, really trying to have trust, but start small.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:51] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Jess Beacon. Jess is a recreational therapist turned virtual assistant who specifically supports therapists in our businesses. And I was really excited to get to talk to Jess today because I talked so much with my students in Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners about getting some help, right? Like not doing it all ourselves. and a VA is usually. The fastest, easiest way to get that help, right? VAs have businesses set up that already are offering support, VAs being virtual assistants. And Jess and I today really got into the foundation of like, what is a virtual assistant? What do they do for you?

[00:01:33] How do you interview somebody to find the right person? What is the amount of time that somebody could work for you for? How do you let go of control might be something that you’re thinking about. If you’re considering delegates, like how do you start to delegate? How do you set expectations for how long it should take for somebody to be able to do a task up to your satisfaction, Jess? shared some great insights today from the virtual assistant side of the equation of how to have a successful relationship with a virtual assistant and get that help that you need in your private practice or your group practice. Here is my conversation with Jess Beacon.

[00:02:17] So Jess, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:19] Jessica: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

[00:02:21] Linzy: Yeah, I’m excited to have you here too. We were just chatting off mic beforehand about how we both live in the same small to medium sized city in Ontario, Canada by pure coincidence.

[00:02:33] Jessica: Small world.

[00:02:34] Linzy: Well, yeah, it is a small world. I don’t think we’ve ever run into each other, but maybe we have. But it’s lovely to have you on the podcast like sometimes,being in the online space, our sense of local is really generous. Like if somebody’s in like Hamilton, which is like 45 minutes away. I’m like, we basically are next door neighbors, but with you, we really like,we really are10 minutes apart.

[00:02:53] So wonderful to have you here,to talk today about VAs. So VAs virtual assistants, this is your world. This is your zone of genius that you occupy and this is something that I talk about a lot with my students,whether they’re folks in solo practice, on their own or even with my group practice owners that I work with in my course who might have five employees, sometimes even like 10 employees,there can be a lot of confusion or lack of clarity about virtual assistants, what they can do for you, what they won’t do for you. And so I’d love to dig into today to help folks get more clarity about, you know, this kind of support. So let’s just start with the very basic, like what does a virtual assistant do?

[00:03:34] Jessica: Mm-hmm. no, that is a great question. I often think of VA as like an umbrella term ’cause there’s just so many things that we do and it varies so much between VA, like what services they offer. I would say in general, they usually provide support with admin, creative, technical, and social media. Those kinds of areas and then some VAs also specialize a little bit further, so they might provide more specialized skills in certain areas. This isn’t an inclusive list, but this kind of just might give you an idea of what they could maybe take off your plate.

[00:04:08] So in terms of admin, some tasks could be client communication,email management, updating Excel sheets, light research, keeping track of data or metrics, scheduling blogs. could be billing and invoicing, scheduling client sessions, calendar management, creating SOPs or like standard operating and then creative tasks could be, you know, creating resources for your business. So maybe that’s course creation workbooks, freebies,maybe video editing, and then in terms of social media, that could look like engagement, creating graphics or reels, scheduling posts, creating a monthly content calendar.

[00:04:47] And then, like I said, some VAs will specialize a little bit further in certain areas, so they might offer things like email marketing or podcast management, Pinterest management, web design. Some VAs even consider themselves like a tech VA, so they might do, you know, email automation systems, setting up a CRM or project management tool,creating lead pages and web support. So, I could go on and on.

[00:05:10] Linzy: It’s a big list.

[00:05:11] Jessica: There’s so many, I feel like that doesn’t even probably scratch the surface.

[00:05:13] Linzy: Sure.

[00:05:14] Jessica: Hopefully that just gives you an idea of some of the tasks that a VA could take off your plate and like I said, every VA will be very different in what they offer.

[00:05:22] Linzy: Right.

[00:05:23] Yeah, so folks will have their specific niche that they might be particularly excited or skilled in but you know, what I’m hearing in that list of tasks is,almost everything that’s not actually client facing.

[00:05:34] Jessica: Yeah, we’re very behind the scenes. Sometimes client facing, if we’re, some people have VAs that are dealing a little bit more closely with their clients, which is, I don’t personally do that, but that’s a side of it but generally, yeah, like we’re like the behind the scenes kind of specialist, I guess.

[00:05:50] Linzy: Yeah, and running the business side of things. ’cause something that I find with many of the folks that I work with is. The business side of things, usually is not why they started a private practice, right? Like people don’t start private practices ’cause they really want to have their own business. You know, we start our private practices ’cause we want to work for ourselves and have freedom and be able to maybe work for the population that, you know, there’s no other way to work with them. We want to be able to step out and work on our own terms, but I often think about it that it’s kind of like therapists accidentally go into business.

[00:06:20] Jessica: Right.

[00:06:21] Linzy: You’re like, oh, there’s all these things to do. Like that massive list that you just gave us. Which, you said, is scratching the surface. Those are all fairly standard things in the running of a typical business. Maybe some of the things at the end were a little bit more online business-oriented, like lead pages or automations, but,many of those things on that list are just things that we all have to do, to have an actual business that is a machine that is doing something to support us

[00:06:46] Jessica: Yeah, and it creeps up fast. You’re just like, oh, I have to wait. I have to post on social media. I have to do this. It’s so easy to get burnt out and just exhausted from it all. Yeah, it’s a lot.

[00:06:57] Linzy: So you know, for folks who are listening right now who might have just heard some things on that list that they’re like. I can get help with that thing.

[00:07:04] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:07:06] Linzy: When somebody is considering, like looking around for a VA right. What kind of questions should they be asking to find somebody who will be the right fit for them?

[00:07:15] Jessica: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So it’s going to depend yeah, what you’re needing from the VA first, I would say if you are a therapist that’s looking for a VA that is going to be working with your clients, so like they’re maybe dealing with personal health information and they’re

[00:07:30] scheduling,appointments or doing calls and stuff like that. I feel like there’s sort of a subset of questions you might want to ask,just to cover those bases. So for one, I would see if they’re familiar with privacy laws in your jurisdiction. I know you have a lot of, I think Canadian and American listeners, so like, see if they’re familiar with HIPAA or P HIPPA.

[00:07:48] We’re in Ontario. That would be a really good first step if that’s the kind of VA you’re looking for. I would also ask the question like what steps do they take to keep sensitive information secure, just like on their end. And then it might also be a good idea to ask if they have cyber insurance just as like a little extra protection.

[00:08:05] So that’s specifically for if your VA’s dealing with personal health information. I do not do that as a VA, but I know like there’s probably therapists that are looking for that, so I just wanted to throw that out there. Other questions you could ask? So that would be like, obviously you might want to ask what their experience is in mental health,and just to get an idea, like, do they understand your ideal client?

[00:08:24] This might depend, you know, what tasks they’re doing, if they’re doing more social media, this might be more important or obviously if they’re communicating with your client, but I think it’s just really good that they know the language and they just understand that space. So it’s just good to ask that question. Another one would be pretty basically like, what services do you offer? ‘Cause like I said, like that list is so long and VAs differ so much in what they offer. So just make sure that they do offer something that is what you need that is going to take something off your plate. Another question would be like.

[00:08:55] A lot of VAs have, they go by hour or they do packages. So just ask them like, do you charge hourly? Do you do a package? I think some VAs like if you do a certain amount of hours, it might be cheaper like in a package. So that’s a good one to ask and then also are there like minimum requirements, so some VAs because the onboarding takes like a little bit of time. They might say we have to commit for a month or like a couple weeks or something. So just good to know that for yourself, just see if they have a minimum requirement. And also, what notice do they require to cancel?

[00:09:26] So you don’t want to be stuck, like, you know, you just want to have an idea, like if you ever have to cancel for whatever reason, the contract, just good to know how many days they require. What are your preferred communication methods? So I think that’s just good to know, like how do you guys communicate?

[00:09:40] Does your VA like to email or use Slack or video call or a combination? and then what are their turnaround times too because,you know, some VAs are very quick to respond to stuff that a therapist needs help with. Like they’re, maybe they wake up one day and they’re like, oh my gosh, I need help troubleshooting this, or I need…not all VAs can do that. A lot of us have multiple clients that we’re working with, so we might have like a 48 hour turnaround for things like new projects or something that’s not already on our task list. So just good to have that in mind because I’ve definitely come across potential clients where I’m like, I don’t know if we’re a good fit ’cause I do have a little bit of a turnover time and I can’t be available constantly. So it’s just good to ask that. You could also ask about their experiences with different platforms and systems, like if you need help with Jane or something that’s really important that they’re going to be using to see if they have experience.

[00:10:27] If not, like, are you willing to kind of maybe provide a little bit of education on that? And then I threw this one in. This was one that my client asked me on a discovery call, but I thought it was really good is how do you receive feedback?I just thought that was really smart to ask that and I was like, oh, what a good question and I just felt like that gave a good idea of how I work and just like. I got a chance to share how I do receive feedback, also being highly sensitive. I was like, I really appreciate you asking that ’cause we can be more sensitive to criticism and stuff and it was just a very nice question to ask.

[00:11:01] So, and then lastly, this isn’t really a question, but I would say like, is their personality a good fit? Because I just think that’s just so important when you’re inviting someone into your business. Like do your values align? Do you get each other? Do you work well together? Luckily, like with my clients, we just, yeah, we really understand each other and I feel like it makes the process just so much better. Like, we really get each other. So, yeah, just I would, I mean, you guys know how to feel people out. I would just say like on the discovery call, see if it’s a good match. A good fit.

[00:11:30] Linzy: Yeah. Looking around a little bit, too, is something that I’m thinking of as you’re mentioning these questions, I think we’re used to the idea of looking around for certain things. like dating, it’s like you don’t marry the first person you go on a date with, maybe they’re not a fit.

[00:11:43] But sometimes when it is, I think especially for therapists and health practitioners, folks in business when maybe we’ve been putting something off for a long time. There can be a lot of charge around it like, oh, okay, I finally need to do this thing. You still need to remember that the first person to interview might not be the right person. It might not be the right fit, as you say. Right. And so, you know, interview two or three people to see who feels like the right vibe ’cause something that I’m thinking about too, as you’re mentioning these questions, is partially there are questions you would ask anybody if you’re doing a job interview, right? Like if you’re hiring somebody as an employee, you would want to ask these questions too. But also they have their own business,

[00:12:16] Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:17] Linzy: Somebody else’s business into your team. So I’m also thinking too about like, they’re not fitting into your workplace culture, you know, if they already are established, like you are, they have multiple clients, they have their way of doing things. So making sure that your businesses are compatible.

[00:12:31] Jessica: For sure. Yeah, and I would say like a lot of VAs offer free discovery calls, that’s usually the first part in the process. It’s like half an hour. So yeah, do like a few of those if you can just, it’s just so worth it to take the time to find someone. I feel like that’s just a good fit.

[00:12:45] Linzy: One of the biggest hesitations that I hear from therapists when it comes to a VA is there’s a couple things. All the work it’s going to take to train them, Right. Like there’s this hesitation and the thought that then comes up for I think a lot of therapists is like, it’s easier if I just do it myself. Like it’s going to take so long to teach them. It’s easier if I do it myself. Maybe they won’t do it as well as I do it or won’t do it the way that I like to do

[00:13:07] Jessica: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:09] Linzy: What do you suggest in terms of the onboarding process for a VA? Like How do therapists set their expectations appropriately for onboarding? What does onboarding look like? Like how much time does it usually take to kind of train somebody or come to an agreement about how things should be done?

[00:13:24] Jessica: For sure. Yeah, I would say like, so it depends like if you have a, maybe a newer VA that you’re onboarding, you may be more involved in that process. Maybe they need more education on certain systems or things you’re doing in your business. A more experienced VA, they might have a slightly better onboarding process or know, have more knowledge of certain systems that you work with but I would say, yeah, like in general, nobody knows your business or you, so whoever you onboard, it’s going to take some time, to just get to know each other and how you work and the workflows. So I would just say like, yeah, take it slow. So it’s usually a discovery call and then there’s like a kickoff call, which is like your first call when you’re like, okay, we’re working together.

[00:14:02] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Jessica: So I would just take time on that call to really get into like nitty gritty stuff of like, how do you want to do this? Do you want to, like, what project management software or platform are we going to use and how are we going to delegate tasks? Ask like, is the VA going to send you a report every week of like, what they did? Or do you not need that? Or just like, kind of create that open communication of how do we want to work together? And so kickoff calls are a really good place to do that. Yeah.

[00:14:27] Linzy: Absolutely. And you know, something that I am also curious about from your perspective as a VA is sometimes I’ve seen therapists hire somebody like say to do their social media and they’re not happy with the work that’s being done, but it’s also like just started,

[00:14:40] Jessica: Right.

[00:14:41] Linzy: Right? So like in your experience, what is a normal kind of onboarding period where it’s like, yeah, we’re still getting to know each other, you’re going to still be getting to know their brand’s voice, you know? So obviously it’s going to take you a while to be like, oh, okay, this is the color scheme you want oh, I understand now there’s going to have to, of course, be a normal amount of working things through and getting to know each other, but also sometimes it’s just ultimately not going to be a fit.

[00:15:02] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:15:02] Linzy: In your experience, how long does it take to figure out if you’re actually a right fit?

[00:15:08] Jessica: Mm-hmm, I would say it depends too, like what you’re doing. ’cause like social media would be, that takes so much longer to kind of see results and get into the hang of things and stuff. Whereas like VA work, I would say you could probably know a little bit sooner if things weren’t working. It’s tough to give a hard answer for that.

[00:15:27] But I would say like social media maybe, I don’t know I’d say sometimes it could take at least like four to six months to really see like something happening depends like how much you’re posting too and like if they’re actually like a social media manager that’s doing strategy and stuff, like it should be probably around that. Whereas, if there’s no strategy, it is kind of hard to see results sometimes. So I dunno if that’s a great answer to the question, but.

[00:15:51] Linzy: It’s a great answer because that got me thinking about something. I’m thinking about a specific student in mind for this example. And the question of results is a great one, right? Because like when we’re in business, we’re trying to accomplish something, right? It’s not just like whether or not we personally like something, it’s like, is it doing the thing that it sets out to do? And that’s a great reminder, right? Is that when we have a VA working with us, there can be metrics that we’re tracking together, right? Our goal is to gain 50 followers a month, right? Is that happening? Is what we’re doing working. Can your VA tweak and come at it a different way and you start to see that there’s results? That is a great reminder that is what a VA is there to help us do not necessarily do something exactly the way that we would’ve done it.

[00:16:35] Jessica: Exactly, yeah, and also just thinking sometimes your idea of like success maybe changes over time, like if you’re not, getting followers is great, but sometimes it’s just like being seen online and like growing brand awareness. There might be things happening behind the scenes, if we’re talking about social media in particular, that are actually doing well for your business but it’s a little bit hard to see like those the hard numbers or whatever. So I would think of like all the different ways it might be helping besides just like, you know, followers or something, but it is still important to track those, like if you have certain goals, I feel like a good social media manager will be tracking like the numbers and you guys will have a goal set out at the beginning and there should be some kind of like return on investment, obviously, like at least give it some time but,after a while it’s like, okay, yes, you should be seeing something aligning with the goals that you guys set out.,

[00:17:23] Linzy: Yeah,Because I’m thinking, you know, there’s two things that adding to your team in general brings, and specifically that a VA would bring and so there’s kind of those quantitative results, where we see something in the business is getting better, right? Like more clients are converting because they’re getting responses faster than you could give as a therapist, right? Like if your VA is more available, maybe more people are converting to a first session. Or if you’re doing like,social media, you’re getting whatever metric you decide, you know, the followers is a vanity metric, but maybe you’re getting more people actually like click through to your page or you’re starting to hear from people who call, oh yeah, I found you on Instagram or like, my friend told me about your Instagram page. So there’s that quantitative piece of actually improving your business’s performance, which from a financial perspective then turns into more money that you can allow to live your life and you know, all those good things But I’m also thinking, what I see generally happens first is that qualitative change where it’s like oh, somebody else is helping,

[00:18:16] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:18:17] Linzy: Right? Like, I’m not alone in that and that I find folks tend to have that happen quickly or often it doesn’t happen. I’m thinking these are, anecdotal, but I’ve seen folks where they hire a new administrator, whether they’re a virtual administrator or in person and it’s a fit, and they’re like, oh my god, I feel like 30 pounds lighter.Just having somebody else who’s like holding the bandwidth with you and who’s like, oh, I got that. Or like, oh, here’s a better way to do that. Like the relief that brings, especially when therapists have been kind of treading water frantically for so long and that in itself has a lot of value that might be harder to quantify.

[00:18:54] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:18:55] That’s a good way to, to say Yeah, because it was like, you obviously want that quantitative data. But then it’s like, there’s also that qualitative stuff where it’s like, oh, if you can feel like lighter or you just have more capacity to be with your family or you have alone time, it’s like, that is so valuable it’s hard to like put a number on that.Or maybe it means like you start working on this project that you’ve been dying to work on, like you start creating that course or you’re writing that book and like, you’re not going to see the numbers from that right away, but that just might be an investment where you’re getting back the capacity to work on that, which maybe down the road turns into more money. Yeah, so lots of, it’s invaluable…

[00:19:29] Linzy: yeah, absolutely, and like I’m curious, like what would be your response to therapists who really have that challenge around, like, nobody can do it like I can.

[00:19:40] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:19:41] Linzy: This is a belief I see that stops people from getting help where it’s like, yeah, but nobody can do it. Like I can, like nobody can respond to client emails or I, I don’t even know. ‘Cause like, it could be literally anything, but yeah, what are your thoughts on that kind of belief?

[00:19:55] Jessica: Yeah, it’s tough because like, I totally relate to that and I feel like I’m also a perfectionist, struggling with control and letting go. So I totally understand. I think you have to find someone that’s a good fit and I think it’s so hard, but just none of this has to be long term. You can just try something, you can start small. I would say like, if you’re nervous about it and you’re like, oh my gosh, someone can’t do this as well as me. Start with a task that’s maybe you’re less involved in it in some way and doesn’t really require you as much or your voice or whatever.

[00:20:26] Start with that and just get used to dipping your toes into delegating that could be just a few hours a month or something. You can go from there. You kind of build that trust and I think just giving the VA trust is huge too. Like, which again, like I know it feels so scary, but when they don’t feel micromanaged and you trust them, I feel like they get access to just, there’s more purpose for them and they feel like more a part of your business and the bigger picture. It’s tough. It’s just finding the right person, really trying to have trust, but start small. If you’re new to delegating,start really small.

[00:20:57] Linzy: That’s a great way to frame it like new to delegating And for folks who are new to delegating, what are those nice kind of like light starter tasks that you see tend to be easiest for folks to give away?

[00:21:07] Jessica: I would say like scheduling blogs, if you do that,you could do maybe light email management, like just very, even like you could get some templates started and your VA could just like use templates to do stuff. You can also, I think a lot of therapists will have the VA sign off from the email instead of them. So it’s just like, it’s not actually you talking,if they’re worried about that. Just even tiny things like website updates or, yeah, like I know social media is just such a huge thing. So even if it’s like, maybe you don’t hire a social media manager to do your whole strategy, but maybe you’re like, I have some good ideas, but like, I don’t have time to create the carousels or edit the reels, you know, so like you’re still behind the big picture of it and you’re driving it forward, but they’re just doing like the little annoying tasks that are taking up

[00:21:56] Linzy: So it’s like, it’s like, here, I recorded this reel. Can you match it to this? Here’s the caption but they actually do the task of putting everything together.

[00:22:03] Jessica: Yeah or like scheduling takes so much time or writing captions so just those tasks that maybe don’t require you as much, like you can still do the big picture stuff, get your voice out there, and they can do the just annoying things that are taking up your time.

[00:22:15] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, those little admin tasks that sometimes take so long too and something that I try to tell my students is often VAs, you folks are actually generally much faster and more efficient at those tasks than we are for a variety of reasons.

[00:22:31] Jessica: Right.

[00:22:32] Linzy: Partially because of your natural skills, which is why you’re in this field, but also I find, too, when it’s your own business, sometimes certain things can have an emotional weight that slows you down. Like for instance, if I think about replying to client emails or letting a client know that I’m sick, it’s if I was sick and I had to like call the client, like, I would like feel bad ’cause I’m like, oh, I knew what we were probably going to talk about today. And we had that EMDR target we were working on last week and like, you know, and so like for me it’s a very heavy task to call somebody and be like, I’m sorry, I’m so sick. You know? And like I have to, I feel like I have to sound extra sick if I’m calling them. Whereas like for a VA, they’re just like, Hey, Linzy’s sick today.

[00:23:03] Yeah, okay, I’ll get you scheduled tomorrow. Great, we’ll see you then, bye. Like, it’s such an emotionally light task. And how much more efficiency that adds when somebody, it’s not them, it’s not your brand, it’s not your voice. You don’t have all these complex relationships, yeah. I think that you actually tend to be much faster

[00:23:19] Jessica: Okay. Well, thank you. I didn’t, that’s nice to know.

[00:23:21] Linzy: Yeah. Certainly. So, you know, something else that I’m thinking about, Jess, is therapists, too, like we tend to think a lot about other people’s needs. Don’t know if you know that about us… You were a rec therapist I know, in your previous life, so I know you know what I’m talking about. And something that I also see therapists struggle with is this hesitation around like how little help can I ask for? Right? Like, we feel responsible. So if you want to bring on a VA, it feels like you should be bringing them on for like,20 hours a week or like full-time, you know? What is the smallest amount of work that you can ask a VA to do?

[00:23:53] Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I’ll start most questions with this, like it will depend on the VA obviously, but I wouldn’t worry too much about even if you’re just delegating a small amount of tasks every month, even if it’s like a few hours or something. Like I said, VAs have so many, usually a lot of different clients and they’ll let you know if they’re going to work for them or not.

[00:24:12] If they have the availability to do a couple hours a month, a few hours. Yeah, I mean I feel it feels weird to just say don’t worry about it, but like I would say honestly, yeah, just like it’s part of our job to just have a few different clients and I’m sure there’s so many VAs that would be more than happy to take on a client for just a few hours a month, or however much you need, and like, you can grow, too.

[00:24:31] Maybe that could be a question for the VA. Do you have the capacity to maybe if I need more hours, they might be able to help you with that. In the future,if you start building that trust and stuff and can slowly delegate more tasks. So, yeah, I wouldn’t be afraid to start small.

[00:24:44] Linzy: Yeah, because I think, too, as you’re describing that, it’s remembering that if you’re approaching somebody who’s actually a VA like you are, you have your own business. So you’ve already got, you know, your system set up. You’ve got maybe a few clients and you can say yes or no fit. I’m Jess, can you help me for like 15 minutes?

[00:24:59] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[00:25:00] Linzy: Once a month, you’d probably be like, ah, maybe not that doesn’t quite fit what I need. But somebody else might be like, that’s perfect ’cause I have this. One hour spot in my week that I was looking to fill, and I’d be happy to put you in there. And so trusting the other person to also, you know, have set up systems, and be able to let you know what works for them and what doesn’t. I’m thinking of the therapist and just asking for what you actually want and need and as you say, you might say, can we start at like two hours a and can we start you with this task? But as trust grows and as you find that you’re a fit. Naturally their role might also grow and I’ve certainly had that, like our very first VA that we worked with,was also based here in Guelph by pure coincidence, found her online, and she started by doing just like the smallest tasks for us and eventually she became our first full-time employee But that was a natural progression, right?

[00:25:46] As we were like, oh, that was really great. Could you help with this too? Can you help with this too? You know, but we were able to toe-dip and slowly walk into the water together rather than diving into hiring a full-time administrator when we didn’t yet know how to get the help of a full-time administrator. ’cause we didn’t have SOPs in place. We didn’t know what we were doing.

[00:26:05] Jessica: Yeah,

[00:26:05] Linzy: And so it was a nice way to actually, for us to build a role,as our business grew, that position grew with our business.

[00:26:12] Jessica: Yeah, I think that’s such a great progression of how it can turn out. I remember my one client came to me just like not needing a ton of help. I think it was maybe like 10 hours a month or something. Tiny bit of social media management and like in the last over two years, like we’ve grown so much. Like she has a podcast now, and she’s writing a book, and she has a YouTube channel and now I do like 45 hours a month for her. She trusts me so much now ’cause like, it just takes time, right? You gotta like to build trust and show that you understand their business. And so she’s just been slowly been able to delegate more and it’s amazing. So we just keep kind of growing together. And I know not every VA would maybe have that capacity, but when you work so well together, I feel like you’re usually just open to being like, yeah, of course I want, I’ll take on more for you.

[00:26:55] Linzy: Yeah. And that right fit goes a long way like I know our VA turned employee, she let go of other clients

[00:27:01] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I did

[00:27:03] Linzy: more of a fit with you than I’m with these folks, so I’m going to wrap up my work over here so I can give you more hours. Right, so there, yeah, there’s a natural organic growth in that relationship. If it’s a relationship that works.

[00:27:13] Jessica: Exactly and that’s again, why it’s, yeah, so important that you’re a good fit, like in terms of personality and values and stuff.

[00:27:18] Linzy: Certainly. One more thing that I’m thinking of, ’cause this is one of the biggest hesitations I hear from therapists about VAs is like, it’s scary to spend the money, it’s scary to pay for help, right? It’s like, but I’m doing these things now and maybe the business isn’t even where they want it to be financially yet. Like what is the value of investing in some help or paying for help? How do you respond if you notice that folks are maybe hesitating to pay, or what would you say to somebody who really needs the help but is scared to spend the money on getting help from a VA?

[00:27:48] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I think I would say, “What is the cost of not delegating? It’s so easy I feel like, to be like, well, I can just do it myself. Like it takes an hour or it’s so easy to get sucked into that, but it’s like, what is the cost? Like is it actually sustainable, what you’re doing? Are you working on the weekends? Are you taking time away from your family or like you’re just putting off that project that’s going to actually help you scale and grow your business. So I would just sort of try to flip it and be like, you know, what’s the cost of not doing it? You can look at it as an investment too, right?

[00:28:18] Like you, you might not always see results right away, or maybe see, like we talked about, like the qualitative results first, and then it becomes quantitative. yeah. So I would think of it that way and like I said, yeah, just start small. Think of it as even a trial. Start with someone, see if it’s a good fit and then you might be surprised where you’re just like, why didn’t I do this sooner? Like, I have so much more capacity now. So I think that’s what I would try to frame it as is what’s the cost of not delegating?

[00:28:44] Linzy: That is a great framing. I like that framing a lot and something too that I find a framing that I often use with folks is just doing a little bit of math too, where it’s like, okay, this person, what would you pay them for an hour of their work. And then what are you collecting for an hour of your work? Like if you can see one more client a week because you freed up these four hours and you only turn that into one more hour of your work, how does the math work out? And usually the math is pretty damn good on the side of therapists, right? Because when we do have availability in our schedule and we have the energy to see one more client, therapists on it for an hourly basis bring in a lot of money for that one hour,

[00:29:19] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:20] Linzy: And so that can turn into a lot of help in your business. So if I think about that, if I think about turning one hour of my clinical time into four hours of help, it’s like, oh, that’s good math.

[00:29:30] Jessica: That’s a great way to put it. I’m paying this person this much, which I feel like most VAs are very reasonably priced to pay, and then what can you bring in. I feel like that can help as well. That’s a great way to think of it. Yeah.

[00:29:43] Linzy: Jess, thank you so much for coming in and shedding light on all things VA. If folks are interested in learning about your services and what you do,where could they find you? Because you are a VA for therapists. I will just say for people listening. So yeah, where could they find you?

[00:29:58] Jessica: yeah. So I am on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn virtually with Jess. And then I also have my website virtually with jess.com. That’s usually the best place to find me. I, at the time of this recording, I don’t have any room for clients unfortunately, but that could always change. You never know, but I do have an inquiry form at the link, my bio or my website to join a wait list if you’re interested. So, yeah.

[00:30:23] Linzy: Thank you so much, Jess, for coming on

[00:30:24] Jessica: Yeah, thank you for having me.

[00:30:36] Linzy: This conversation with Jess reminded me of my own journey and history with VAs and getting help. I got help early in my private practice when I was in solo practice, and still not even necessarily full, but was doing a transition between two clinic management softwares and was like, this is not a good use of my time. So at that time, I managed to get help from the administrator at the clinic that I was at. I was originally renting space at a clinic and it was such a relief to have that help and now in some ways I feel like I’ve gotten so much help in my business that I am not even good at admin anymore.

[00:31:12] If you can believe that. I was just saying to my team, jokingly, not jokingly this week, I should not be responsible for any administration or operations at this point because I’m spending so much of my time serving our actual students, right? Like coaching, doing our course calls, recording podcasts like this, doing presentations and workshops, doing the actual teaching, and idea generation for our business that I’ve become really bad at admin. I just don’t have the capacity or bandwidth. And that is totally fine ’cause it means that I’m actually able to show up in these spaces fully, without having to worry about some small administrative task and trying to remember if I have done it or not.

[00:31:52] So for folks who are considering getting some help, I highly recommend it. You are giving yourself the gift of not just time, but also getting back your bandwidth. And as Jess mentioned, for many folks, once they get their bandwidth back, whether it’s through, I see this when people get their relationship with money sorted, when they do, for instance, money skills for therapists and finally they’re not stressed about their business finances all the time, or when we get help with our administration, so we’re not doing our admin all the time.

[00:32:20] When we get that energy back sometimes it’s amazing what little project that was floating around your brain and felt impossible suddenly becomes possible because you have reclaimed your energy, you’ve reclaimed your bandwidth, and then you can make beautiful things happen in the world. That is probably not scheduling blog posts or scheduling social media posts or creating Instagram reels or any of those things.

[00:32:38] So appreciate Jess’s perspective today from the virtual assistant side of the relationship of how therapists can get help in doing this awesome work that we do. If you’re enjoying the podcast, it is so helpful if you leave me a review on Apple Podcast. Not only does it help people find the podcast, but lately I’ve been really getting into reading reviews as little love notes. You don’t have to leave me a love note, but if you’re enjoying the podcast and you have words that you could put to that enjoyment, it’s really nice for me to hear what the podcast means to you, and what you appreciate about the podcast. So you’re welcome to leave me a review on Apple Podcast. 

[00:33:16] And if you’d like to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Money Nuts and Bolts. Thank you so much for joining me today.