[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Feelings and Finances mini series on the Money Skills for Therapists podcast.

[00:00:09] These episodes are all about me answering your questions. The wonderful therapists, health practitioners, coaches, the listeners of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And today’s question comes from Jennie Vila. Here’s her question.

[00:00:23] Jennie: Hi, Linzy. This is Jennie Vila. I graduated from Money Skills for Therapists about a year ago, and I have been continuing to improve my regular maintenance of my finances. And one of my big goals that we had discussed when I was finishing MSFT last year was to pay off my student loan by my 40th birthday, which is now about five months away.

[00:00:49] And in this time, I have had some health issues come up that have prevented me from working so hard toward that goal. And I’m feeling really frustrated and bummed out about It’s a likelihood that I’m not going to pay off that debt by my 40th birthday. And so I think that talking about the feelings and frustrations of having to readjust when life happens would be something that I could use your expertise in.

[00:01:21] And it’s so hard because the finish line, that zero dollar amount is so close, yet it feels so far away. So if this is something that you think we could discuss and help other people with, I would really appreciate it. Thanks. Bye.

[00:01:37] Linzy: Hi, Jennie. Thank you so much for your question. I feel like that was an emotional rollercoaster for me, that question, hearing and then remembering your goal and then hearing that you’ve had health issues. I’m sorry to hear that. And then to hear that that has impacted your life. likelihood of hitting that goal and like the frustration that comes with that, seeing that it’s so close.

[00:01:57] And yet at this point, you’re probably not going to kind of make it by this deadline that you set. So, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind for me is how we think about goals. My good friend, Maegan Megginson, who’s been on this podcast many times… We’ve had this conversation many times, Jennie, as things have happened in the business.

[00:02:16] I like set, say like a launch date, for instance. At one point I set a launch date for a mastermind called the Intentional Therapist Mastermind. And I was like so excited about it. And then I also had a series of health issues.

[00:02:31] I had a series of pregnancy losses. It was quite devastating and kind of the third one happened right when I was about to launch this mastermind, this goal that I’d set, right? This is going to happen now. And I launched… and when you launch a course, you know, you put it out to the world, people start responding, and people are responding.

[00:02:51] And I realized I can’t do this. I can’t do this. I don’t have this in me. Life has served up something else, right? Something that we haven’t anticipated. Lauren Selfridge, who’s another colleague of mine, she had a great podcast called This is Not What I Ordered for folks living with chronic illness.

[00:03:06] And that’s very much the experience of that kind of moment where you’re like, this is not what I ordered. This is not my plan. I was supposed to be doing X. In my case, I was supposed to be launching this wonderful mastermind. I’m supposed to be excited about all these folks, you know, applying to work with me.

[00:03:19] In your case, it’s like, I’m supposed to be paying off this debt. I had this amazing plan. I’m going to pay off my debt by the time I’m 40. It’s like such a beautiful, tidy goal. And sometimes that is not what life is. serves to us and it is frustrating and it is grief inducing. There’s grief there, right?

[00:03:35] Because not only are we grieving that we’re not going to do this certain thing on the timeline but we’re not doing that because something shitty has been happening, right? There has been issues. There’s been health issues, there’s been loss and so I think there’s a two pronged approach here. Like the frustration is probably part of grief, right?

[00:03:53] The frustration is you had this beautiful plan, you were working to this plan, and then these really hard things have been happening, right? And I’m sure there’s many losses that have gone with these health issues, Jennie, probably not just this particular goal, but part of it is being with that grief.

[00:04:08] And I know for myself, I grieved those pregnancy losses for a long time. Very long time. And I also had to not do that mastermind. I had to cancel it. I just realized like I did not have the capacity, and I had to let that go. And ultimately I actually let go of that program, period. I never ended up running that program because by the time I went to run the next program, I decided to do something different.

[00:04:28] So that just never happened. In your case, it is going to happen because you have a goal of paying something down. That debt is still there. It’s not going away. So part of it is accepting, right? It’s getting to that more like acceptance place with grief of the shitty thing has happened. It’s not what you wanted, but it is what happened instead of what you wanted.

[00:04:48] The second piece is, to go back to, as I was referencing my friend Maegan Megginson, she’s always reminded me that deadlines are arbitrary. We made them up. You made up that goal, right? It’s such a cool goal. And I remember talking with you about this goal, and it’s such an exciting goal to like hit a big milestone like that and line it up with another milestone.

[00:05:08] Like what a nice, beautiful synchronicity, a beautiful package. If that is not going to happen, you get to make up a new goal because you made up that first goal, right? Like you get to have the power over the narrative of what happens here, right? We could have the narrative of this thing never happened.

[00:05:25] It was terrible. it was a big disappointment. I’m still disappointed about it. Or we can have a narrative that’s something to the effect of this really shitty thing happened. It was hard. I worked through that, and then I made this thing happen in a different way. In my case, my story is and then I ran the Money Boss Mastermind instead the next year, and it was great, and it was awesome, and I had so much fun.

[00:05:45] And you know, it’s… The ending, you’re not there yet, but it’s like, what do you want the ending to be? Is it that you had a goal to pay down your debt by your 40th birthday? And you didn’t quite get there because you had some health problems, but you paid it down by, I don’t know, your 40th birthday and four months, right?

[00:06:00] Or your 40th birthday and six months, or some other milestone, but you paid it down by your anniversary of that year. Like you get to make it up. Goals are made up. We make them up, and we get to remake them up if life gets in the way of us hitting them in time, right? And so, this is my curiosity for you, Jennie, is like, if you can be with that grief, if you can start to think about what is the new ending? What is the different ending for this story? Is there another exciting, positive way that you could frame this?

[00:06:28] Not to fall into like a toxic positivity thing, but this makes me think about, this image of, like a gymnast going through the air and like kind of like, Oh no, like losing balance. She’s doing a flip, but she’s kind of like a little off kilter and like, Oh gosh, right? But it’s like, you can still stick the landing, right?

[00:06:45] So how do you stick the landing on this? And what would be fun for you? Is there like another milestone coming up this month? Is there like a fun number you can play with where it’s like, Yeah. You’re going to pay it off by 40 years, four months and four days. How can you reframe this goal to adjust to your life and still feel empowered and clear and still see yourself winning? Because you are winning.

[00:07:05] This is an amazing goal, and you are so close to being there, and you get to adjust it. You get to make up a new thing that still makes this a big win and success in your life because it is a big win and success in your life. And even if it doesn’t happen exactly as you planned and envisioned, it’s still going to happen.

[00:07:24] And I know it’s going to happen because I know you and I know that you’re working hard towards this. So, those are my thoughts for you, Jennie, on this. I hope that your health is improving, and I’m excited for you to know you’re going to be hitting this goal in the near future, even if it’s not exactly on the day you originally planned.

[00:07:43] If you have a question for me, like Jennie, you can leave me a question on our podcast page. I’ll put a link in the show notes here. All you need to do is go to the little box that says, Do you have a question for Linzy? Push record. Share your name, share a little bit of context, like Jennie did, if context makes sense for your question, and ask your question.

[00:08:02] And I would love to answer it on one of these Feelings and Finances episodes of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Amy-Lynn: I work with a phenomenal team of people. They are truly exceptional, and all of us genuinely care about what it is that we’re doing and the support that we give. Jane’s mission is to help the helpers, and we take that to heart, I can promise you. We believe in what it is that you as practitioners offer. And we want to support you while you are making a difference in the world.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today on the podcast, we have Amy-Lynn from Jane. I’m very excited to have Amy-Lynn on the podcast so that we could nerd out about Jane. Jane is the software that I used in my own practice when I was in private practice, and it is Canadian. So this is a little bit of a Canadian invasion, maybe, on the podcast for folks who are American, you may or may not be familiar with Jane yet.

[00:01:17] I will say that Jane is a clinic management software that in Canada is kind of the default. Like whenever I go to book with my osteopath or a massage therapist or a naturopath, they all use Jane, and it’s such a great tool, great system. It has so many wonderful features and more and more, they are like moving into the States, and they have made it now so that they have American insurance features.

[00:01:40] And so it’s a really, really nice addition to kind of the options that we have around clinic management softwares. And so today in my conversation with Amy-Lynn, we talk about Jane E. itself. We talk about the features of it. What does it do? How does it make your life easier? We talk about the places that as health practitioners, we tend to lose time, all those kinds of administrative tasks or places where there can be friction around payment collections and bookings and notes, like all these little things that add up in the course of a clinical or treatment day to suddenly make it so that you have way more work to do, either like after hours, or your day just ends up being way long, or there’s often what I find with clinical notes, often we just don’t get to them when there’s a lot of friction. When you’re spending a lot of time doing administrative tasks, we end up putting things off that need attention like clinical notes, or maybe like working on your finances, for example.

[00:02:33] So we talked today about the features that Jane has to give you back your time, let you focus on the work that you love to do and making the other parts of your work, all those admin pieces so much easier. And then we talk about what it looks like to switch to Jane, the supports that they have in place.

[00:02:49] If you are curious about checking out Jane for your clinic management software, here is my conversation with Amy-Lynn from Jane.

[00:03:12] Linzy: So Amy-Lynn, welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:15] Amy-Lynn: Thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be here, Linzy, and to talk about Jane.

[00:03:20] Linzy: Yeah, I’m so excited to have you here. I used Jane in my own practice for years, years and years. And I was such a fan of what you folks do. So it’s actually really nice now to be able to like, share you, with the world, especially we were chatting off mic about how a lot of Americans don’t know about Jane, cause it’s started in Canada and is in the States, but like is newer to the Americans, American market. If I want to talk businessy. So I’m excited to be able to talk about what you folks do today on the podcast,

[00:03:50] Amy-Lynn: That’s so exciting. I’m excited. I’m always excited to talk about Jane.

[00:03:54] Linzy: That’s a good sign. You’re in the right job.

[00:03:55] Amy-Lynn: Yeah. Yes.

[00:03:56] Linzy: So I’m curious, Amy-Lynn, about you. Can you tell me a little bit about you and your background and how you got started at Jane?

[00:04:03] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. So my background is administrative and office management. Actually before I started doing customer service more in the tech space, I actually managed an equine veterinary clinic. So I am used to the idea of scheduling and booking, and while there’s definitely some differences between animal practices and human ones,

[00:04:22] there’s a lot of things that are the same. My journey to Jane started with me as a patient. My local massage therapist uses Jane, and I was able to book an appointment online, and I was able to fill out my intake paperwork on my phone, and I was like, this is the coolest thing.

[00:04:37] I don’t have to sit there with a clipboard for 15 minutes and, you know, so I scrolled down to the bottom of the page and I saw that it was powered by Jane. And so I clicked on that link, and I learned more about Jane and their mission, and their values. And I thought, wow, this would be like a really great place to work, and here I am.

[00:04:55] Linzy: Look at that.

[00:04:56] Sometimes things just call to you. You just know.

[00:04:59] Amy-Lynn: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely felt called to it for sure.

[00:05:04] Linzy: So what is your role at Jane?

[00:05:06] Amy-Lynn: So my role at Jane, I started in support, and I am still in support, but I have recently become the manual therapy advocate at Jane. And the advocates, our role is basically because Jane is multidisciplinary… So we are the advocates for the disciplines to make sure that, you know, the voice of our practitioners is

[00:05:26] being heard. So,when we focus on, for example, in the manual therapy space, I will take feedback from chiropractors, and I go to conferences and that type of thing. And then I’m the person that takes that information back to the wider team. So to our product team, to our developers and to the support team, so that as we work to make Jane better, and we introduce new features, we know that the voice of the practitioner is being heard and considered in those changes.

[00:05:53] So. It’s an exciting role. I’m very excited to be part of it.

[00:05:57] Linzy: Yeah, and we’re going to talk about what Jane is for a sec, just for folks listening, just so you know. If you’re like, what are they talking about? Don’t worry. We are going to dig into that. But I will say, that is something that I so appreciated about Jane as a user. Like I started with a different clinic software that’s actually out of Australia.

[00:06:12] There were a few options. I used one and it had all these bumpy glitchy kind of features about it that were just so little, but they add up, right? Like when we’re using a system every single day… I remember my clinic management software had it so that You had to write your notes in the order that they happened.

[00:06:28] So I had to actually line up my note taking with the session. So if I just had a session, and I wanted to write the note, but I hadn’t written the note for the last time, I can’t write today’s note and have it be in the right order. I’d have to go back and write like the last note. Otherwise my notes show up in the order that I wrote them rather than the order the appointments happened.

[00:06:45] And it’s like such a little thing. But when you’re a little perfectionistic, which perhaps I am, recovering or not, and which folks in my audience tend to be like, we like things to be clear, organized. Just something little like that is such a headache. Like it makes a big difference, and then it interrupts your workflow.

[00:07:04] So then my, you know, response to that would be like, well, I’m just not going to do this note because I haven’t done the note before yet. And then I actually ended up literally hundreds of notes behind because we’re doing that same little thing over and over every day. Yeah. And it has these big ripple effects.

[00:07:17] So I will just say something I so appreciate about Jane is like, I know that it was developed by practitioners, right? It was developed by a physio. Do I have that right?

[00:07:25] Amy-Lynn: Yeah. Well, actually one of our co CEOs, because we have two CEOs, Allie and Trevor, and Allie opened a multidisciplinary clinic in North Vancouver. And so definitely there was that… it was like multidisciplinary, so physios and all of that wonderful stuff. And she realized really quickly that she wasn’t going to be able to find a software that was going to be attractive, first of all, and secondly, so many things were so siloed.

[00:07:49] Like if you were a chiropractor, you needed chiropractic software, and if you are a mental health professional, you need something specifically for that, and that type of thing. So she ended up going to Trevor, who is the other co CEO, and he had an independent business at the time. He was working on her website, and they just sort of like bespoke, built it in,

[00:08:08] to her website, and started using that. Because she wanted to offer online scheduling and she wanted everybody to be able to use one platform. And that was the beginning of Jane. That’s sort of how that started.

[00:08:19] Linzy: And you can feel that. Like, you can feel that it is made for practitioners, like, for folks to actually use it. Okay, so let’s dig into what Jane is. Because I’m talking about it and I said we were going to tell the people what it is, so we should do that. We should be integrity. So for people who are unfamiliar with Jane, what is it?

[00:08:36] Amy-Lynn: Jane is an online practice management platform for health and wellness professionals… or, electronic medical records, or, you know, EMR. So Jane basically will help you tackle everything from online booking through to your scheduling, all of your session notes and charting, email and text reminders.

[00:08:56] It takes care of it all, and our goal is to reduce the administrative burden of running a practice, right? Because we want to do those things for you that are so time consuming. And that’s what the focus of Jane and its features are.

[00:09:12] Linzy: So you have like the scheduling aspect, there’s like the online booking, there’s your schedule on the backend that you can control, there’s client notes. There’s payments, like it tracks payments that are outstanding to you, what you’ve collected, what is still owed, all of that kind of stuff. So it basically does most of what you need software to do.

[00:09:32] And I know you folks have also integrated video calls into it, like around the time of the pandemic.

[00:09:36] Amy-Lynn: We absolutely have integrated telehealth in Jane. We have insurance integrations. We have payment integrations, and all of that wonderful stuff as well.

[00:09:45] Linzy: There’s so many components to Jane. It’s kind of like a little universe of all the things. Can you highlight a few of the features that you think make Jane so good, that have made you want to work for Jane even?

[00:09:56] Amy-Lynn: Oh, yeah. Well, definitely, what really made me want to work for Jane was the ease of things from the client side. Like, I found the ability to be able to book an appointment online and be able to fill out my intake paperwork. So I feel that’s a really great feature of Jane because it gives you the ability to create, like, customized intake paperwork… That’s automated.

[00:10:18] So it’s going out to your clients when they’re booking. The other thing that I think is a really awesome feature is when you’re doing session notes, cause you were talking before about session notes, and the frustrations around making sure they’re in the right order.

[00:10:30] And Jane has… Like our notes are customizable, our templates are completely customizable, and if you want to build one from scratch that works just for you, you absolutely can. But probably one of the coolest features I think Jane has is just our massive template library where other professionals have created just some truly incredible templates, and you can pull them into your Jane account, you can change them and work with them and make them You know, your own is to work with a flow that works for you and saves you time, which is really fantastic.

[00:11:03] And that same template library also includes intake form templates as well. So you’re not starting from scratch when you’re building those critical forms for your clinic.

[00:11:14] Linzy: Which is so helpful. Like, I think notes are one of the more stressful parts of being a practitioner, especially a mental health therapist. And I think part of that is that folks in the mental health space, like we tend to be quite narrative and verbose. We like the words, the details. Like when somebody’s telling you a story, like I used to write literally a whole page of notes for every client.

[00:11:36] And my handwriting is tiny. Like I used to have high school teachers joke about needing a microscope to read my writing. It was a lot, but it’s like, it all feels really important, you know, and depending on the modality that you’re using, you’re catching all these different little details and you have your own, as you say, like you’re almost like having little templates in front of you and your written notes. And something that I did with Jane,

[00:11:57] as you’re referring to, is like I had my own template that I eventually made as I settled into like, okay there’s all this information, but to distill it into my

[00:12:04] formal, this is “the note” for the session, I had like, you know, those three or four boxes that would pop up automatically if I said it was a regular session, but I had a different template for like an administrative note or a different template for a call with another practitioner. And having that kind of structure in place, like I think it’s easy to underestimate how much bandwidth that eats up when we have to kind of make something fresh every time or remember how to do it, but like baking your needs into

[00:12:33] your software, and have it so that your software is just like, oh, here’s the template for this. This is how you like to do it. You’re like, oh, that is how I like to do it, just creates so much more ease in the process. And so, yeah, that’s a feature that I myself have used. I haven’t seen the template library, but that also sounds very cool.

[00:12:46] Cause I was always thinking, am I doing my notes right? Should I change how I do my notes? Like I would chat with my colleagues a lot about, how do you do your client notes? So I feel like that’s also an opportunity to even change how you do things, and see if there’s a way that you would want to do them differently by having other folks’ brilliance, having access to that.

[00:13:04] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely, because there are thousands, like literally thousands of really amazing templates in there. And, you know, other people have put in the work, and they’re just generously sharing that with you because they know the struggles. And they found something that worked for them, and put it out there and said, I hope this works for you, too.

[00:13:22] And then you can certainly take that and make it your own, which I really think is an awesome feature.

[00:13:27] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. Another feature that I’ll say that I loved as a practitioner, and as a client that I love, too… Because as a Canadian, I do find that almost all my practitioners use Jane. Like it is the default. In fact, my challenge has been remembering my Jane password for all my different practitioners, right?

[00:13:43] It’s like, wait, is this the password for my naturopath? No. That’s my osteopath password. And so, especially when I was pregnant and having my son and had a lot of, you know, manual health needs. Yeah, I find like the default is Jane, but something that I loved when you folks rolled this out a few years ago when I was in practice, and I loved receiving it as a client, was that credit card on file. It’s so simple. but it felt kind of revolutionary at the time. And I noticed for myself as a client, my osteo has my credit card on file. And that means when I see him. And usually, to be honest, I’m sorry, Mark, my osteo, I only see him when I’ve already put my back out. So I already see him when I’m basically in crisis, like, I’m like, “Hello, I cannot sit. Please ease me onto the table.”

[00:14:26] And so he has my card on file. So when I go to leave that session, rather than having to pull out my wallet and give that information all over again, he’s just like, okay, I charged your card. I was like, thank you, sir. I will see you hopefully not for a long time. Again, just that like smoothness, like that removing friction as a client is great.

[00:14:44] Cause there’s no reason that I should have to give him fresh payment information every single time. And so it’s just like, it’s just an automated thing that makes the flow faster for him, but it also makes it faster for me as a client.

[00:14:54] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. And it also leaves your interaction with that practitioner, not on, oh, and by the way, here’s your bill. Right? It leaves it on that, you know, the good positive feelings that ideally you have when you’re leaving there. And it leaves you being able to like, live in the moment, even as a client being able to just walk out and know that everything’s taken care of, you know, and you don’t have to worry about standing there and giving payment and because it’s just taken care of for you.

[00:15:20] Linzy: Well, because the other piece too that I see my students, like the therapists and health practitioners who work with me in Money Skills for Therapists, what they struggle with sometimes is also billing their clients, right? So like, sometimes it’s like the session ends and you’re like, okay, great. See you next week.

[00:15:36] But like, there’s no invoicing that happens. There is no bill that’s given. And then, that can actually create a lot of tension in that relationship because then sometimes by the time the clinician gets around to being like, Hey, I finally sat down and did my billing. You owe me 500. The client is like, I don’t have 500 right now, right?

[00:15:55] And now you’ve created an issue in your relationship, right? And now you’re starting to think about payment plans, or the client is resentful because they’re like, why didn’t I just pay you as I went? I do see this happen a lot where our avoidance actually hurts our relationships with our clients.

[00:16:10] We’re trying to protect them. We’re trying to be like, Oh, I don’t want to bring money into this. I’ll just, we’ll just talk about it next week. And then next week, of course, we’ll just talk about it next week. We’re trying to create harmony, but we actually end up creating discord because we’re not

[00:16:22] withholding the boundaries of the relationship. And the boundaries are we’ve just had an exchange. I gave you skills and gifts and treatment, and you give me money. So when we haven’t billed them and when they haven’t paid us when they left the door, there’s actually this like kind of unfinishedness to that interaction, which is not good for any relationship to have kind of these loose ends hanging out.

[00:16:44] Amy-Lynn: No, absolutely. And I think the nice thing about like Jane’s process of being able to get credit cards on file, even that part of the transaction doesn’t necessarily have to be face to face or part of your session,

[00:16:55] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:16:56] Amy-Lynn: which can feel a little icky, you know. So the ability to collect that information on your intake paperwork and have like a nice little blurb about why you’re collecting it and the importance of collecting it.

[00:17:08] So expectations are set during the intake process before they even come and see you for that first session. And that can be really key to not feeling bad about it.

[00:17:19] Linzy: Yes.

[00:17:19] Amy-Lynn: Either on the practitioner side or on the client side.

[00:17:23] Linzy: And it just bakes it into that relationship from the start of like, yep, this is, we have got your credit card info. This is how I use it. Done. Finished. Yeah. Which is really nice. I’m curious. What other features would you want to highlight for us?

[00:17:39] Amy-Lynn: Oh, terrific. Well, you know, like I mean coming from my administrative background, I absolutely love an efficient process. So one of, I think, my favorite things really is a lot of the things that Jane automates. So like on, on top of things such as the intake paperwork that we’ve been talking about, there are also automated notifications, and unlimited text and email reminders, and wait lists, and all of those things that just reduce administrative lift.

[00:18:07] You know, whether you are a solo practitioner or you have people in your clinic that do the admin, everyone is going to love the fact that they don’t have to… It’s not an extra step to get these things sent out, and it’s not an extra step to use these features because so many of those things are automated in Jane.

[00:18:26] So, that’s a good one. And then, if anything else, I would say, so Jane has some insurance integrations in both Canada and the U. S. We actually have a direct relationship with a clearinghouse in the U. S. that we just were able to introduce bringing eligibility checks directly into Jane, which is exciting.

[00:18:44] So, that’s another feature that I think is really exciting.

[00:18:48] Linzy: Yes. And another thing I’ll say about Jane, and this is not inconsequential, is that it’s pretty. Jane is pretty. For folks listening, a lot of folks in my audience, I’m sure, share my like sensitivity, right? Like if something is, you know, ugly and glaring, that actually detracts from my ability to be able to focus, right?

[00:19:08] It’s just like if it’s like, or too much information, right? That kind of sensory overload that can happen when you look at something and there’s so much information that it’s like, wait, where am I supposed to look? What is this? Why am I seeing this? I don’t want to see this information. Is there a way not to?

[00:19:21] I find Jane is so streamlined and clear in your design and also the design for the booking page itself, you can make it feel very brand aligned. So when somebody goes on your website, they click over to the Jane page, and it feels like they’re still on the same website because the colors all blend. Those kinds of things make a really big difference.

[00:19:38] And I definitely notice when I’m using software that has not had that kind of thoughtful design, you notice. You notice it. Yeah. And then the other geeky thing that I want to add then now that I’ve talked about things being pretty is, I want to talk about reports. The Jane financial reports are so good.

[00:19:54] And as somebody who teaches finances, right, and teaches therapists how to have financial clarity. I do find that there are some softwares that I look at, and I am having trouble discerning what information the report is giving me, and how to get the information that I want. And Jane, I never had that experience as a practitioner.

[00:20:12] Whenever I went into Jane, and I wanted information, it was always very clear how to get that information. It’s always like, it was super clear and super easy to run a report of like how many folks I had seen that week, how much I billed, how much money is outstanding. Who are my top clients, right? Like who’s paid me the most over time.

[00:20:28] It’s just like those report features are not what we usually think of when we think about like, what tool am I going to use every day, but for the kind of skills that I’m teaching folks to use where you zoom out on your practice, and you look at what’s happening and you start to understand the trends, and you start to understand where you can make little decisions that make a big difference,

[00:20:47] having that clear report information available is essential, like that is foundational to be able to be strategic in your business.

[00:20:55] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:20:57] Linzy: So administrative tasks are kind of the bane of health practitioners and therapists because most of us do not have a love of administration, which might be strange to you as someone

[00:21:09] Linzy: who does have a love of process and operations. Right. But like, it ends up being one of those things that like you have to do in order to do what you really like to do, which is, you know, IFS or helping folks with TMJ issues or whatever it is, right, that your passion is. 

So what are some of the common pain points that you notice private practice owners struggling with when it comes to that? admin stuff. And how does Jane help to ease that? 

[00:21:22] Amy-Lynn: Yeah, you know, one of the key things I would say is definitely spending a lot of time doing follow ups. So when we talked a little bit before about things like those automated notifications and those unlimited SMS and text reminders. Also like return visit reminders. So, you know, you’re not spending that extra time with Jane, doing those follow ups. You know that your clients have those links, you know, if it’s a link to their telehealth call, you know that they have it. You know that they’ve been notified by email and by sms that their appointment is coming up. So you don’t have to kind of have that weight on your shoulders about, “Gee I need to follow up with them and make sure that they got everything they needed,” because you know that they’ve got it.

[00:22:15] Probably another key thing would be You know, managing your schedule, a lot of practitioners sometimes, you know, like you work all day doing what you love. And then you’re, when you go home, you’re not really home because now you’re thinking about, like, you’re scheduling and, you know, you’re taking calls and you’re answering emails and all of that wonderful stuff.

[00:22:32] And one of the key things that, that Jane does is that online booking piece that you were talking about before and the ability for you to have control over what you offer in your schedule online, but to just be able to sit back once you’re confident that you’ve got that time up there that you can sit back and just let people book that time.

[00:22:53] And you don’t have to worry about, you know, following up with emails and making phone calls. You can also give them the opportunity to be able to handle some of those things, on their own. Right? So with that, we have a pretty amazing client portal, and they can go on and see their upcoming appointments.

[00:23:11] If that appointment is past your late cancellation period, they can reschedule or cancel that appointment with a reason on their own. Again, not having to call and put that kind of time out of your day for dealing with scheduling.

[00:23:24] Linzy: Yeah, because scheduling can be this very painful puzzle, too, that we carry in our brain where it’s like, okay, this person can’t do Tuesday at 10 and they can do Thursday at 4, but then I also have to pick up my kids. So maybe… like, it’s a lot of bandwidth that we end up holding. And like, I do really love having a tool that lets your clients be empowered to manage their side of things, right? It’s not all on you. It’s like they get to look and they can see, Oh, okay. There’s an opening Tuesday at two, but there’s another opening Wednesday at three. And they can go through their own process of like, Oh, well I have a meeting at three, but I can easily move that meeting to one.

[00:23:57] And then I can make it. And then it’s like all of this decision making is happening, but you as a practitioner haven’t actually had to be part of it. Yeah. Because they’re an adult. And they can figure it out without having to go back and forth with you, to figure out, you know, where they can see you in the week.

[00:24:10] So I think that is also empowering for your clients to be able to handle stuff without you having to be in the middle of everything.

[00:24:16] Amy-Lynn: Yeah, absolutely. Things like, you know, the note taking process. We talked quite a bit already about, you know, session notes and charting notes and the fact that that process can sometimes be daunting, overwhelming. It can take too long. You know, you have a busy day and sometimes you’re feeling like well, you know I may have to end up going to work back to that last note, and the ability to be able to do that easily and the ability to be able to have, you know, a charting system that allows you to save yourself some time because just beyond the templates that we were talking about earlier, we also have some really cool things where you’re able to, if your device has speech to text, you can dictate into any note field.

[00:24:55] on a chart in Jane. We have something called smart narrative, where you’re actually able to build out rules around different things. So my client had pain in his right elbow and that type of thing. And it’s better or worse since the last time they came in. And as you’re answering those questions, Jane is actually building a narrative for you.

[00:25:16] So you’ve got quick little button presses, but Jane is creating a whole paragraph. Another key thing in that is that if you find yourself, you know, and I’m sure that we all do… I know in a day, I’ll be typing things out and I’ll be like, geez, you know, I think I’ve typed the same thing four times today.

[00:25:33] And, in the notes, you’re actually able to highlight it and turn it into what we call a phrase. So we have these quick phrases where you’re able to just type in a couple of key words and, boom, that entire sentence or that entire paragraph appears in your notes. So some of those things really kind of lift that administrative lift off of that fact that those session notes can take a long time.

[00:25:57] Linzy: They can. They really, really can. And what I love about that, too, is it’s starting to think about what is the same between client sessions? Like what is automatable? Cause I think, too, in the mental health field, we’re really good at seeing everybody as unique individuals and everybody’s complex.

[00:26:15] And, you know, we really notice what’s different between our clients, right? And what makes them unique. But there’s also lots of things that are the same. Right. So as you say, like, there’s going to be phrases that we write over and over again, like, it’s been a minute since I’ve written a clinical note, but as you were saying that I was thinking like, oh, yeah, I had a certain sentence that I would write something about, like, use a calm place for like grounding and containment, something like that, right?

[00:26:37] Because I was an EMDR therapist, and I probably wrote that phrase. hundreds of times over the course of my time in private practice, right? So that’s one that it sounds like that would be an example of a phrase where like I could just click into like the complex phrase and like plunk in that whole sentence in two clicks rather than writing out those words maybe three times a day because that was a common intervention that I used in my clinical sessions.

[00:27:01] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. The ability to build those and, you know, you can edit them once you’ve created them. So if your language changes or something of that nature, but they’re always there for you to just speed up that process. And there are certain things even at the template level, you can choose, if there are some key things that you know need to be a part of a specific type of session note or chart note.

[00:27:21] You can actually add them at the template level, too. So we give you lots of options to make sure that, you know, you’re as speedy as possible, but as accurate as possible at doing those notes because the, you know, the key part is the treatment and the care that you give. The note taking is a requirement.

[00:27:36] So if we can make it as easy as possible, then, you know, that’s best for everyone,

[00:27:42] Linzy: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And any other spots where you see practitioners losing time that Jane can help them with?

[00:27:49] Amy-Lynn: You know, definitely. And we did touch on this quite a bit, before was the idea of the payments, being able to… You know, doing the accounting side and the bookkeeping side and dealing with your AR, finding ways that you can improve that process, make it a little bit quicker and easier.

[00:28:07] You know, we talked about the idea of it being, you know, less transactional. But aside from that, when we step back from the, from your actual sessions or treatments, with your patients and clients. It’s the step back to look at your business and say, this is what my current AR is and how do I deal with that and how can I reduce it?

[00:28:26] And, you know, we have some things from that online booking side where you’re actually able to create payment policies. So you can… If you’re not collecting credit cards on the intake paperwork, you actually have the ability to collect them while people are booking online, so you can collect credit cards. You can charge a deposit.

[00:28:42] You can even get paid for your entire session up front. And you can also have different rules between… If it’s a very first time client, maybe that first time client is paying for your session entirely up front the first time. And then after that, they’re able to book sessions without having to pay.

[00:29:00] Right. So for those follow ups, so that we give you a lot of control around that. But those types of things, you know… Being able to make sure you’ve got those cards on file, or that you’re charging for things prior to appointments, all of those give you that little bit of financial security, you know. Being able to deal with things like no shows and late cancellations… In Jane, you’re able to put in a pretty comprehensive cancellation policy where you can tell people, you know, if you no-show, we’re charging you for the cost of the appointment, or you can do a percentage of that.

[00:29:31] Jane gives you full control over what type of no show and late cancellation fees you’d like to have. But the fact that the card is on file, again, eliminates that friction of having to reach out to them and say, Hey, you no-showed. I need a card so I can charge this.

[00:29:45] Right.

[00:29:46] Linzy: Yes. Yeah, it streamlines the processes, but it also streamlines them in a way that’s really customizable. Right? So you can really set it up to reflect the client population that you work with. What are your policies? How are you communicating? Yeah, being able to do that, that follow up, about sessions not paid, like an automatic message.

[00:30:04] Like, I remember writing that message. I had an email I used to use because I didn’t, I don’t know if this feature existed back when I was using Jane. But I used to be like, Hey, it was great to see you today. As a reminder, your payment is 150. And I would like, again, write out that email myself. I could see how handy it would be to have that

[00:30:18] language already prepared in a note that I can just send if for some reason somebody forgot to pay me, or the transfer didn’t go through. Again, just streamlining, automating, and making it very professional and boundaried, right? So there isn’t like that room for it to become messy or an issue between you and the client.

[00:30:34] And just to go back a minute, Amy-Lynn, you’re using the phrase AR, which is a business term, which for folks listening is accounts receivable, right? We want your accounts receivable, the money that is owed to you by clients. I would say we want that number to be as close to zero as possible. And I would argue the only times that it shouldn’t be zero is if you’re dealing with a third party payer, like an insurance company, or in Canada, there’s like lots of programs from the government around like victim services or like services for indigenous folks where there is somebody else paying that bill.

[00:31:04] In those cases, you are going to have an accounts receivable that adds up because of that third party. owes you money. But generally speaking, I would argue that between you and an individual client, there should be no balance that is adding up. And it sounds like Jane has so many ways to keep that from becoming an issue.

[00:31:20] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. We even have a pay balance feature on our statements and a pay balance email that can be sent from the client profile. So if you’re not charging that card on file, or you did not collect a card prior to, after the session, you’re able to send a very professional email. This is your balance for the session so that can be dealt with and they can go online and enter their information and pay it, which is really nice.

[00:31:43] Linzy: Yes. Yes. Yeah. The more that we can make these interactions professional and clear and pretty. Did I mention that it’s pretty?

[00:31:50] Amy-Lynn: Very.

[00:31:51] Linzy: That keeps you in a good relationship with your clients, right? That is a way to take care of your clients. So what other types of support does Jane offer folks who are using the program?

[00:32:01] Amy-Lynn: Yeah, that’s a terrific question. And, at Jane, we are here to support you. Like I think support is a very key part of what makes Jane, Jane. So, alongside being able to talk to a real person on the phone and over chats and by email, we also offer things such as account setup consultations.

[00:32:20] So if somebody does sign up with Jane, and they’re brand new, you are not alone. We are there to help you walk through things like getting your schedule set up, and getting those intake forms set up, and helping you navigate through the chart template library, and the template libraries for those things. And just making sure that, you know, if you’re going to offer online booking, that things are looking the way you want them to… All of that stuff, our support team is there to help you through that.

[00:32:47] We also have,like for those DIYers, and the people who don’t like to make phone calls and love to do things themselves, we have, our Jane guides are really comprehensive, and we have some absolutely amazing videos and step by step walkthroughs. There’s just a ton of information out there to support you as you’re working with Jane that way as well.

[00:33:07] We also have a really great little magazine called the Front Desk Magazine. And it is a physical magazine, but you can also see it digitally as well. And that is a focus a little bit more on clinic life. So for example, our last issue was talking about, you know, business visibility, and how to manage your no shows, and that type of thing.

[00:33:27] So not so much Jane support specific, but you know clinic life specific. And then our last thing, and probably one of the coolest things, too, is because my focus is just so much on getting that feedback from the community… Jane has an absolutely amazing Facebook community.

[00:33:43] There are like 14, 000 practitioners that are either Jane users and some are non Jane users, and they’re there not just to support each other with Jane, but they’re also there to ask advice, or give advice on things like the business of running a practice, with Jane in ways, like, “how have you worked to reduce your no shows,” and people will talk about different Jane features around how that works and how they’ve utilized it to be successful.

[00:34:11] It’s a really cool community for sure. So, a vast amount of support. 

[00:34:17] Linzy: And I mean something about my experience with Jane when I was a practitioner and like accessing support and now that I’m part of your ambassador program is Jane is so human. Like as a company, you’re a very human company. So for instance, when I was on maternity leave with my son, I did not have a subscription at that time.

[00:34:36] I had stepped away. I wasn’t practicing for a year. Because I live in Canada. And I remember midway through I got an email from a client being like, “Hey, I need my notes” for some reason. And so it’s like, I think she was maybe seeing a new practitioner or maybe it was court. I can’t even remember now, but I was just like, Oh shit, I need notes.

[00:34:53] So I was like, okay, I might just have to pay. Like I might just have to eat it, and I might just have to pay Jane for a month to get this note for practitioner. And I emailed your support team and I was like, Hey, this is a situation. I’m on mat leave. I’m not practicing, but I have a client who needs a note.

[00:35:06] You know, like, what can you do? And I remember I got an email from a human, a person, very quickly being like, Hey, no problem. I’m going to open up your account for the day, get in there, get what you want. You might also want to get this information while you’re in there. Like happy mat leave, take care.

[00:35:19] And I was like, what? Like for a tech experience, that is exceptional, right? Because so many companies, like so many tech experiences that we have are faceless. It’s like a chatbot that I’m like, that’s not the question I asked, chatbot. But the chatbot is like, I’m sorry, you don’t qualify for support.

[00:35:37] Like I got that message recently from Zoom. I was like, how much money do I need to give Zoom to be able to talk to a human? I don’t know. Infinite amount of… I don’t know. I’m not there apparently. and

[00:35:44] Amy-Lynn: My goodness.

[00:35:45] Linzy: That human element of Jane is so helpful, so helpful when we’re navigating tech and setting things up and accessing things and learning how to use it.

[00:35:57] And you folks do that so, so well. Like I really commend you on your lovely humanness that you’ve managed to maintain despite being a company that serves lots of folks.

[00:36:06] Amy-Lynn: Yeah, I, you know, I’m so glad to hear that. And I absolutely love that. It makes me preen a little because I’m a member of the support team. I just love hearing when people praise… I work with a phenomenal team of people. They are truly exceptional and all of us genuinely care about what it is that we’re doing, and the support that we give. You know, Jane’s mission is help the helpers and we take that to heart I can promise you And you know, I think all of us really want to genuinely be helpful, and I’m so glad that translates into how you feel when you call us because we are a group of humans, and we’re a group of some pretty great humans, and we believe in what it is that you as practitioners offer.

[00:36:51] And we want to support you while you are making a difference in the world.

[00:36:57] Linzy: Yes. Yeah, I think when you work with a team, you can feel if they work in a good workplace. Like you can feel if you’re working with a happy team.

[00:37:04] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely.

[00:37:06] Linzy: You can also feel when you’re working with an unhappy team. and there’s definitely some companies that we’ve worked with where I’m like, Oh, they… I would never suggest anybody work there.

[00:37:13] You know, where there’s like massive turnover all the time. you’re always talking to a new person cause nobody seems to stick around, but like, yeah, you folks seem to really have locked down to like being a company that is doing great things and also taking great care of yourselves as well as your clients, which is a beautiful balance to strike.

[00:37:31] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. And that’s amazing because definitely like even going back to my journey with Jane, it was reading about their values and their mission and then becoming a part of Jane, which I’ve been for almost two years now and realizing they genuinely do live that vision and mission every single day.

[00:37:47] We all do. And yeah. We’re happy to help.

[00:37:51] Linzy: The love fest is almost over…

[00:37:52] Amy-Lynn: It is!

[00:37:53] Linzy: For those who would be interested in learning more about Jane or who are thinking about switching from their current EMR to Jane, can you explain what that process looks like?

[00:38:02] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely. Well, one of the first things I would definitely recommend if you’re thinking that Jane might be a good EMR for you is please do one of our free demos with a support team member. So you would get somebody like me on the other line. You give us a little bit of information about your practice. You know how many clinicians you have if you’re a solo practitioner, what type of disciplines that you are going to offer and all of that wonderful stuff.

[00:38:26] And we will customize a little demo for you and walk you through how Jane could work for your business. I always suggest that everybody starts there because it is really key to get a good idea of how Jane could function for you. We want happy people coming to Jane. If you’re switching from another platform, that process will include getting some data out of your current platform, and Jane does have a dedicated imports team of our own, and we also have some wonderful guides as well that talk about, you know… we try to help you get the data from your current systems and give you an idea of what to expect from what you can get out of the current systems that you have.

[00:39:05] And then our import team, you upload that information into a secure area, they hop in and they work really hard and they get all of that information into Jane for you. And that process is also included. It is part of you becoming a Jane customer. That import side of things is taken care of for you.

[00:39:23] And then after the import, you have unlimited support. So you can phone us, book those accounts, set up consultations to help get you up and running, and phone us whenever you need us, send us emails, chat with us. We are there to support you while you get started with Jane.

[00:39:41] Linzy: And that’s at every subscription level, to be clear.

[00:39:43] Amy-Lynn: That is at every subscription level.

[00:39:45] Linzy: Not only the super premium subscription level. So that’s for everybody. Beautiful. And for folks who are interested in signing up for Jane, we do have a code, uh, Money, Nuts and Bolts, which is M N B 1 M O. And that gets you a one month grace period.

[00:40:02] So you can always do a demo. And if you decide, yep, this is it. When you go to sign up, there’s going to be a spot for you to put the code. So you can do the code after the demo. Or if you know, you’re interested now, that’s a way for you to try Jane for free. And Jane is month to month, right? So folks could try it for that month.

[00:40:15] It’s not like they’re signing up for a year and getting a month off. that’s your one month grace period to like check it out and play with it. And then if it’s not for you, you’re not like locking in for a long period of time.

[00:40:25] Amy-Lynn: Absolutely.

[00:40:26] Linzy: Yeah, because sometimes that’s the trick, right?

[00:40:28] Amy-Lynn: Yeah.

[00:40:28] Linzy: It’s good to be clear about that because I recently got locked into a subscription.

[00:40:31] And I was like, what? I’m paying monthly, but if I try to cancel, I have to pay out the rest of the year? Like, this is insane. This is not like that. This is month to month. So that code MNB1MO is a way to try it. And what I always encourage, Amy-Lynn, is curiosity. Just like being curious, just trying it out and poking around and seeing.

[00:40:47] So if you’re curious, I encourage you to try it out and get in there and poke around and see how you like it, see how it works for your brain. Yeah, because there… I have literally nothing bad to say about you folks, which says a lot. Cause I used Jane in my practice for many years. So there was lots of opportunity for bad things to happen, and nothing ever did.

[00:41:04] So I’m very, very appreciative of you being here today.

[00:41:07] Amy-Lynn: Oh, that is so amazing. It was absolutely my pleasure. It was my pleasure to meet with you. It was my pleasure to talk with you about Jane and how it can help your listeners. And I am very excited, and hope to be able to talk with some of them. If they do sign up, that’d be awesome.

[00:41:21] Linzy: We’ll put the links in the show notes, to be able to book those demos. We’ll put a link to the signup page. If folks know they’re ready to jump in, we’ll put the code there. It’s all going to be in the show notes. So check out the show notes, so that you can go explore Jane. And thank you so much, Amy-Lynn, for joining me today.

[00:41:35] Amy-Lynn: You’re so welcome. You have an amazing rest of your day, and thanks for having me.

[00:41:53] Linzy: Thanks so much to Amy-Lynn for coming on the podcast. Today, I got super excited. I know it was a love fest, but I hope that folks feel the genuineness of the love fest, because having a tool that works for you, especially like our clinic management software that we use every single day, so much of our time is spent interfacing with that software.

[00:42:15] And if it works, life is easy. And if it doesn’t, life is hard. So I’m a real fan of things being smooth and easy and stable. I’m just a real fan of things working. And so, if you are curious about Jane, I definitely suggest checking it out. Again, you can use my code M N B 1 M O, to get a one month grace period to check it out for free.

[00:42:37] And then if you decide that you don’t like it, you can just cancel. So, I would suggest… This is what I do when I’m doing something free. I sign up and then I put a reminder in my calendar to say, okay, 26 days from now, a little reminder to be like, Hey, do you still want to keep this thing?

[00:42:50] So if you’re curious about Jane, there’s a little tip for how you can set it up so that you can explore it for a month, play with it. I think you’re really going to like it.

[00:42:59] So if you have any kind of headaches at all with your current EMR, I would suggest checking out Jane, and see if that’ll work better for you. You can follow me on Instagram at money, nuts and bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, it’s so helpful for me if you mention it to your colleagues, your friends, your office mate across the hall, to let them also be part of these conversations about money and feelings and admin work and software.

[00:43:27] Some of the things that might not be very sexy, but definitely make our life better when they are working. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to a Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. These are the episodes where I answer your questions, the lovely therapists, health practitioners, coaches, the listeners of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And today’s question is from Sara Walls.

[00:00:19] Here is Sara’s question.

[00:00:21] Sara: Hey, Linzy, this is Sara. Thanks so much for the opportunity to ask these questions. My question is regarding having multiple businesses. So maybe a therapy practice and a coaching practice or some other kind of business. What are some good things to keep in mind regarding the financial management of two businesses?

[00:00:43] Linzy: And within that, one of the questions that came up for me is, how do you handle business expense that might apply to both businesses. So something like a business lunch where you talk about both businesses. Any thoughts you have would be really helpful. Thanks so much. Okay, this is a great question. Thank you, Sara, for submitting this question. I know this is something that is on lots of therapists’ minds. I’m finding more and more therapists, especially, and health practitioners, are building, or thinking about building, that second thing, that coaching practice or that course.

[00:01:16] And the very first thing that comes to mind for me, Sara, the word that like, boop, pops up in my mind right away, always is separation. It’s all about separation and boundaries, right? Good boundaries are good for everybody, and they’re good for your businesses. And especially if you are practicing therapy, you want to make sure that your other work that you’re doing, your coaching work, your teaching work is legally distinct.

[00:01:41] So that’s the first thing is making it legally distinct. So if you’re in Canada, like I am, you know, I had my therapy business as a sole proprietor. I just practiced under my own name. I just filed it as part of my own taxes. But once I started doing this teaching business and actually realized I was going to keep doing this, I made a corporation, right?

[00:02:00] I created a corporation. So there’s a separate legal body. And in the United States, depending on where you are, your state, you’re going to be looking at creating an LLC, a PLLC. You want to make sure that there’s a different container that your second business is in so that it’s super, super clear to anybody who’s even remotely curious that your business as a therapist, what you’re practicing using your license, is not connected to this other work that you’re doing, this coaching work, this teaching work.

[00:02:28] For instance, with my license in Ontario, I am a social worker, and as a social worker in Ontario, you can’t use testimonials from clients. You can’t sell packages, right? And in my course business, in teaching, I do that all the time, right? Like I’m always using testimonials from students who talk about their experience in the course.

[00:02:47] I use those on my sales page. I use them in my masterclass, you know, where I talk about the course, and I sell things as a course. It’s a bundle; it’s a bulk. I’m not allowed to do that as a social worker, right? So I have to be super clear that what I’m doing over here is not me practicing social work as a registered social worker.

[00:03:05] Otherwise, I could be imperiling my license. So that’s the first thing. That’s the legal piece. So if you have any questions about that, if you have any concerns, definitely talk to your accountant, talk to a lawyer, do research for your province and state. Just make sure that you set up the container properly from the beginning.

[00:03:18] So there’s no possibility later for blurriness or questions about whether or not you’re properly using your license. The second piece, now we’re getting into more of the practical money pieces, is you want to create financial clarity between those two businesses without getting in the weeds, right?

[00:03:35] So we want to create enough separation that it’s clear what is what, right? You, those legal boundaries are being aligned with financial boundaries. So you’ve got different bank accounts for those different businesses, ideally at different institutions, just super clear, super separate. That allows you to see financially how each business is doing as well.

[00:03:52] Right? So like if the coaching business is new and it’s just starting at first, there might not be much happening in that bank account. Maybe you’ll get a couple hundred bucks here and there. Maybe the expenses for it are higher, but you can track your finances in such a way that you know, okay, so far this year, I’ve actually spent 500 more on running the coaching business than I have made. That lets you know how the coaching business is doing, right?

[00:04:13] Having those financial distinctions, those two separate bank accounts and two separate sets of records. Also, it helps you be clear on what’s happening in each business so that one business isn’t propping up the other. You might choose to have one business prop up the other for a while. You know, like while a course is getting off the ground, it’s fine that it’s not making that much money, but if this is something you’re going to do longterm, you want to make sure that there’s financial sustainability in both businesses, right?

[00:04:36] One is not leaning on the other one. So, that’s the one piece. But when we get to the second piece, like, as you mentioned, the great example of what if you go out for lunch and you have a conversation with a colleague about your therapy business and your coaching business, how do you write that off? I would suggest that that’s one of those, like, moments where it’s better to be practical than to get into the weeds.

[00:04:58] By getting into the weeds, I mean, you could, if you wanted to, write off half of that lunch to each business. But I don’t think that’s a great use of your time, right? So probably what I would think about instead, Sara, is like stay more zoomed out, more big picture. And it’s like, okay, this lunch, I talked to this colleague about both practices.

[00:05:16] I’ll write that off to the therapy business. But next time I go out for lunch with a colleague and we talk about both businesses, I’ll write it off to the coaching business. Like I’ll put it as a coaching business expense. That just keeps things simpler. There’s always the possibility of getting lost in the weeds, just getting into too much detail where you’re not really getting a lot of return.

[00:05:33] Frankly, the IRS or the CRA is probably not going to care whether you write off the 30 lunch here or there, right? But you can spend a lot of time and energy and waste a lot of bandwidth getting too into the details. So it’s like create enough clarity and separation that it’s clear how each business is doing.

[00:05:51] You can look at each business’s financial performance with clarity, but we don’t want to get into kind of splitting hairs to the point that you’re just creating a big headache for yourself. So you can ask your accountant when you come to filing, how they would suggest writing off certain things that you might share, like a home office, for instance, you can ask your accountant, how they would suggest you writing that off.

[00:06:09] Do you write it off just for the one business? Do you write it off split? There’s things like that, that are bigger that you can chat with your accountant about, but little things like that, I would suggest making your life simple. Because ultimately you’re going to get more return on your energy on focusing on getting some new clients, having another networking lunch with somebody else, doing some great marketing, figuring out a new way to talk about what you do, or to like package up a coaching offer.

[00:06:33] That is going to be a much better use of your energy and bandwidth ultimately than getting into kind of like very small details, like splitting a 50 expense into two and then having on both businesses and having to remember that you did that. I think that that’s not a great use of your time.

[00:06:46] So I would think about evenness and splitting, but in a more general, light way that allows you to focus your energy where it really needs to go, which is going to be on building that second business. Cause I’m going to guess that the second business, which is exciting to hear that you’re talking about having a second business, that second business I’m sure could use more of that growth focus and energy, than you need to be in the weeds with the finances on that.

[00:07:07] So thank you so much, Sara, for your question. For listeners, if you also have a question, you can do exactly like Sara did and leave a question. We’ll put a link in the show notes. You will just go onto our podcast website. You’re going to see a link there to record. All you need to do is literally press record, and record your question.

[00:07:24] Just introduce yourself. If you have a little bit of context that’s

[00:07:27] important, you’re welcome to give that context. And then ask your question. And then I can answer your question on one of these feelings and finances episodes of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:00] Jenet: My next step would be to create a two year plan, which, I mean, we’ve kind of already done. That feels very safe to do. And then also think about how I can leverage that 5K to set a foundation.

[00:00:24] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:48] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with a recent Money Skills for Therapists grad. Jenet Dove is an LPC who supports overfunctioning perfectionists with managing burnout and depression. And today we get into a topic that, as we talk about a bit in the episode, we also dug into a bit during her time in Money Skills for Therapists, which is her relationship to debt and managing debt.

[00:01:15] We dig into perfectionism today, perfectionism around debt, and talk about Jenet’s aggressive debt repayment strategy that she’s using and kind of the costs for that. We explore some alternatives to that, and explore her other successfully saving in the business, like having a business financial system that is actually really working,

[00:01:35] but having some financial struggles or seeing debt grow at home and what to do about that. This is a very actionable podcast. By the end, we really get into some very specific, next steps for Jenet to make changes to her system and the way that she’s managing her money to alleviate the stress about debt.

[00:01:53] Here is my conversation with Jenet Dove.

[00:01:56] Linzy: So Jenet, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:15] Jenet: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:17] Linzy: I’m excited to have you. I was excited when I saw your name on our list of folks who had asked to come on the podcast, because as I was just saying to you off mic, it’s exciting for me to get to talk with grads because I want to know what’s happened since I saw you last a few months ago.

[00:02:33] So yeah, we were saying that you probably finished up the course about four months ago, three months ago.

[00:02:37] Jenet: Yeah, I would say maybe around October, November, of last year. Yeah. Tail end of last year.

[00:02:44] Linzy: Okay. So it’s been like a quarter at this time of recording. So what do you want to focus on, on our time together today?

[00:02:51] Jenet: think overall just kind of the bigger picture with confidence and finances, specifically,having grace for not knowing what we don’t know, but then holding ourselves accountable for what we do know, like once you know, you have to do better. And I think that that piece can be very challenging to balance as well.

[00:03:14] Linzy: Yes. Okay. Okay. So tell me what things are looking like then. Like, what is coming up around this tension between grace and holding yourself to what you know? Where’s the pain?

[00:03:26] Jenet: You know, I took the course and I’m feeling, uh, there’s were a lot of big insights from that course for me in terms of not only just managing the money, but also in terms of some foundational pieces like you and your business are two separate entities.

[00:03:42] And while my practice might be generating six figures, it doesn’t mean I’m paying myself six figures and like keeping those two things very separate. But even within that, the budgeting piece and the cash flow management, all of that, that’s a lot for, for practice owners, especially given that

[00:03:59] That’s really not our forte, you know? And so the grace is knowing that mistakes are going to happen. And I’m sure there’s some type of timeline for, finally getting to where you want to be. in terms of being able to manage your finances, but also, being responsible and accountable for, like I said, when you do know better, you do really have to start being intentional and doing better.

[00:04:24] And that’s a lot of effort.

[00:04:26] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I feel like what you’re talking about is almost like a bigger philosophical tension that we all kind of grapple with in life, which is like, when are you kind to yourself? When do you give yourself a break? When do you push yourself or hold yourself to a boundary that you’ve set? So zooming in, tell me right now, what are things looking like in your financial management?

[00:04:45] Jenet: So I am kind of at a place now where I’m, I’m kind of expanding my team with this. And so, I’m very big about not necessarily practicing within my scope cause that’s my practice, but like focusing on what’s passionate for me. And that really is just the work within my clients and disseminating information and outside of my practice in any ways that I can as well. But the financial piece is one of those things that I’ve realized… now that I kind of have a better grasp on what it actually is going to take to manage it and get to where I want to go with it… you know, I’m outsourcing. I’m hiring an accountant.

[00:05:25] Linzy: Great.

[00:05:26] Jenet: To just really help me kind of manage my cash flow And really helped me get on top of that, outside of what I’ve been able to do with You Need a Budget, and the software, and obviously the skills that I learned within your course, I just think that it’s going to take, some more initiative and steps and what that is acknowledging that.

[00:05:50] I’m not going to be able to do this on my own and that’s okay. That’s part of like where I give myself grace, because if I keep going through it as if I’m on my own, as I am doing now, I think that’s where I struggle with the grace and the accountability.

[00:06:04] It’s like, I’m trying to hold myself accountable for something that I’m just having so much difficulty with.

[00:06:10] That’s where the realization of, okay, I need, I need more help with this.

[00:06:14] Linzy: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s a couple of pieces that stick out to me here right away. One is you’re saying that you’re expanding your team. Are you bringing in other clinicians? Tell me what

[00:06:24] that looks like when you say

[00:06:25] Jenet: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. What I meant by expanding my team was like on the back end.

[00:06:30] Linzy: Gotcha. Your support. You’re expanding your supports. Gotcha. Beautiful. Okay. Great. Great. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that’s good clarifying. Cause I was like, is your business getting a bunch more complicated? No, you’re expanding your team around you.

[00:06:42] Jenet: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:06:44] Linzy: So then the second piece, I think, of this question of, you know, you’re talking about giving yourself grace about needing support.

[00:06:52] Jenet: Hearing that reflected back to me, I can kind of see where you’re going with that. Yeah.

[00:06:58] Linzy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because when you mentioned grace at the beginning, this is a total assumption. I assumed that it was like, maybe you had forgotten to do some things or like, you know, like having to forgive yourself for making a

[00:07:08] mistake in your practice, or those kinds of things, which also is an area that we all need grace.

[00:07:12] Jenet: Absolutely.

[00:07:13] Linzy: But what you brought up right away is that, like, you’re giving yourself grace that you’re hiring an accountant and getting more support to help you solidify your skills.

[00:07:22] Jenet: Yeah, because I think there’s just, you know, I’m a self proclaimed recovering perfectionist, so we really struggle with, you know, we’re just supposed to know how to do things, and do them right and perfectly. And being able to look in the mirror and say out loud, you know, this is what I want to do.

[00:07:37] This is not my forte.

[00:07:38] I’ve tried.

[00:07:39] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:07:41] Jenet: And I, I tried very hard. And I need more help.

[00:07:45] Linzy: Yes.

[00:07:45] Right. And perfectionism is also where your clinical focus is, right? Like a recovering perfectionist. Do I remember that right?

[00:07:52] Jenet: Yes.

[00:07:52] Linzy: Yes. Okay. So yeah, not surprisingly, you’re very insightful about this part of yourself, because that is what I’m hearing is part of it is coming to terms with the fact that you, you can’t do something all by yourself.

[00:08:07] Jenet: Correct.

[00:08:08] Linzy: And I’m curious, Jenet, like, what is the story that comes up when you have to confront not being able to just handle something all by yourself?

[00:08:16] Jenet: Just, oh God. Linzy, is this supposed to be a tearful session? Because I already feel it coming.

[00:08:24] Linzy: Tears are welcome. Tears are welcome. I mean, this is where it is, though, right? Like, this is the stuff feeding into this.

[00:08:29] Jenet: Yeah, it is. It’s so because… absolutely. so what comes up is Well, you, you took on more than you can handle yeah, you don’t know what you’re doing. And this is why you shouldn’t have… This is what you get for, you know, trying to branch out and, you know, start your own practice and do all these great things for yourself.

[00:08:49] And look, now you, you can’t handle your finances.

[00:08:53] Linzy: So what does this prove? For, according to this voice, this critical voice, like, what does this prove or show you?

[00:08:58] Is this about not being worthy, not being safe, not being good enough? Like what is this telling you?

[00:09:06] Jenet: This is more so, this is why you should stay small.

[00:09:12] Linzy: This is a story I know well. Yes. Okay. This is why you should stay small because you can’t handle all the complexity of being bigger and wanting more. So this is reinforcing for a part of you you got to stay small.

[00:09:26] Jenet: Yes, yes.

[00:09:27] Linzy: Okay. I have a question for you and for, for that part of you maybe. Just to flip it on somebody else, I have a team that supports me of, I don’t know, maybe like six people who do all sorts of things that are not my zone of genius.

[00:09:47] Like my marketing, my tech, I don’t know how my tech works, Right? Like managing my email inbox, all of these kinds of things.

[00:09:54] Jenet: Right.

[00:09:55] Linzy: Does that mean that I’m not equipped to run a business?

[00:10:00] Jenet: I would say no, probably that you’re more equipped because you’re able to assess your strengths and weaknesses and then outsource and fill in those gaps as needed.

[00:10:10] Linzy: So, I mean, this is not the most, you know, revelatory intervention, but doesn’t that just say the same thing about you?

[00:10:17] Jenet: Yeah. But, you know, it’s always harder to apply it to… Things don’t apply to us, Linzy.

[00:10:22] Linzy: I know. We’re the exception. We have to do it perfectly and alone, even if other people get help, right? Because Part of what I’m hearing too is like… Well, first of all, I always want you to have an accountant. Always, right? We all need accountants. I have an accountant. There’s no way I could possibly know a tenth of what my accountant knows about tax codes and things that frankly I don’t want to know about.

[00:10:44] So that’s really important. I’m really glad you’re bringing on that team member. Something else, Jenet, that we talk about in the course that I want to emphasize and dig into here is like, you can outsource tasks. You can’t outsource the leadership and the big picture decisions.

[00:11:00] I wonder how it would sit with you. If you think that you’re outsourcing the tasks to this accountant, I’m not sure exactly what your relationship with them is going to be, but you’re outsourcing the tasks, helping them share their expertise with you so that you can be more grounded as you know, a financial leader, you know, making the big picture decisions for your business.

[00:11:22] How does that kind of framing sit with you?

[00:11:24] Jenet: I think that, that feels very settling.

[00:11:27] Linzy: Because part of the… You know, Money Skills for Therapists has evolved over time. And I think when it first started, because I was a small business, because I started this course in 2018, I was teaching people to be their own bookkeeper. Because I was like, we’re little, we don’t make a lot of money. Why would you pay a bookkeeper?

[00:11:43] You could do it yourself. You know, something that has evolved and changed as the course has grown over time and as my business has grown is now, my goal for students is that you have the financial literacy and the groundedness and that like big picture to understand like, these are my goals, this is what I want my paycheck to look like.

[00:12:01] But if bookkeeping is causing you almost any friction at all, I want you to outsource it as soon as you feel like you’ve got your feet under you in terms of that financial grounding.

[00:12:10] For you, how is the bigger picture stuff feeling at this moment? Of your ability to like, think about what you want for your life.

[00:12:18] I know you were paying down some debt when we worked together. Tell me about those pieces of money right now. What’s happening there?

[00:12:25] Like, do you see yourself being able to hold that big picture stuff more and just see this as like outsourcing a task? Is that a framing

[00:12:32] Jenet: I

[00:12:32] Linzy: possible for you?

[00:12:33] Jenet: I think because… If something is not working the way it is now, you obviously need to be doing something differently, right? And so I think that’s kind of my mindset of, okay, this is me doing something differently, in, in hopes of getting a better outcome. And so I would say. Yes. I think what your course helped me do is, you know, there’s a lot of big insights within that work, but also it did give me the tools to try to manage my cashflow on my own.

[00:13:06] And, and through that, I realized I can’t manage my cash flow. I need someone else. And so, that block is still kind of there in terms of like not quite being where I want to be with that piece. I think what gives me hope is that, you know, my practice generates six plus figures. So I know the money is there.

[00:13:31] Right. And so that part is not… I think it would be even more daunting if the money wasn’t there. But because it is, it’s like this feels manageable, but there’s something I’m missing that I’m not able to see. And someone else needs to come in and look at this, and

[00:13:48] shed some light onto what that piece is.

[00:13:51] And I’m, I’m very hopeful that that’s what this accountant is going to be able to do for me.

[00:13:56] Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:13:57] Jenet: It feels like the puzzle piece is almost like clicking, but it’s not quite there yet.

[00:14:02] Linzy: It’s just slightly off kilter. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So tell me what does feel like it’s not working in your cash management?

[00:14:12] Jenet: So I currently have an S-corp set up and that was something that was provided as a strategy for me for tax purposes and cash flow management as well, to an extent. And so what that S-corp set up has allowed is the creation of a very tight budget. This is your set paycheck that you receive from the S corp and that is it.

[00:14:35] So it’s like a very, very tight budget for that piece. And so it has allowed me to see, okay, I can live on a lot less than I thought that I once originally needed. And also, and this is actually through your course as well, just being more mindful of spending habits.and just kind of tightening that up as well.

[00:14:56] So doing the things that are within your control. I think where I… where my frustration comes in is that, okay, I’m doing these things. I’m doing these things Yet something just feels like it’s… it’s not quite gelling, you know, I know life is going to keep like lifing in terms of like, I just had to pay, you know, almost 2, 000 yesterday for my car.

[00:15:22] We talked about this in the course, you know, the AC went out and then this happened and that happened. And so, you know, life will life. And I think some of those things also kind of contribute to this. I’m not prepared, like I am not, you know, I’m not ready, you know, I’m never, there’s never going to be a moment in life where I do not have debt.

[00:15:45] I know I’ve unpacked a lot about my relationship with debt in the course, and it’s still frustrating for me. It’s still frustrating for me that it’s there. It’s just there. And I know some of the things that have been helpful in your course is that debt provides us a way to, you know, take care of things that we need to take care of.

[00:16:05] My debt has always been manageable. But at the end of the day, it’s like it’s not stopping.

[00:16:14] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:16:15] Jenet: And that’s the cash flow piece that’s frustrating for me. It’s like I mean, it may not ever get down to zero, especially, you know, as a small business, you do need to, you know, invest in yourself.

[00:16:24] I get that.

[00:16:26] Jenet: But what is that manageable number? You know, what is, what does that look like? That is kind of the piece where I’m looking for a little bit more expertise and like more strategy around.

[00:16:37] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I will tell you, that that is more of a personal finance.

[00:16:44] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:16:44] Linzy: Just as you’re thinking about who’s going to help you kind of crack the code on this. An accountant will be helpful in helping you look at things like your systems in your business and your obligations. And they might be able to make some suggestions there.

[00:16:54] But part of what I’m hearing is like, you’re not paying down your debt at the rate you want to be. And it’s feeling hopeless. It feels like it’s always going to be

[00:17:01] Jenet: Yeah. Well, yeah. And then also

[00:17:04] Linzy:

[00:17:04] Jenet: life happening. How do you balance that? You know?

[00:17:07] Linzy: Yes, for sure. Because with that, Jenet, like something that makes me think of is building that buffer at home, because as you said, life happens, you said life, life’s right, like there’s so many ways to say this, like, you know… We can only expect the unexpected, you know, like I had a January like this where my car had 3, 000 of unexpected repairs needed.

[00:17:28] I found out that summer camps, you pay for them in January. I didn’t know that. So suddenly we had to register my son and like a few thousand dollars for summer camps. I was like, God, January, that was terrible. Next year I’ll know that, you know, summer camps happened in January, but this year I just didn’t.

[00:17:42] Right. So it was just like that suddenly this big pile of expenses just to manage life. And what I’m curious about is in your personal finances, what are you doing right now to anticipate that?

[00:17:53] Jenet: Nothing.

[00:17:55] Linzy: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:57] Jenet: And you know, other than the tightening of the budget, that has been the biggest thing I’ve been able to do. And I think that’s where a little bit more strategy is going to be helpful is everything… And I, this is something I still haven’t worked on from your course, but everything that comes in that’s extra goes to the debt.

[00:18:14] I don’t put it in savings. I’m not creating a buffer. It just goes to the debt. And so, yeah,

[00:18:22] Linzy: Yeah. Because we talked about this in the course. Like, it’s kind of like this thing where you put so much on the debt, cause you’re just trying to get the debt down as much as possible, but then there’s no buffer. So then if your fridge breaks, your car breaks,

[00:18:32] it has to go back on the debt.

[00:18:34] So you’re watching the debt shrink, grow, shrink, grow more. Yeah. And tell me like for you emotionally, what happens when you have to put more money on the debt again?

[00:18:45] Jenet: My response to it is, it’s a lot better than it was. So I think, your course for sure, has really helped me with my emotional response to stress, money stressors. And so nothing ever feels like a crisis anymore. so that has been very… Like my nervous system might go into flight for a minute, but then I’m able to like get it regulated

[00:19:10] Linzy: Yes. Okay. So I’m glad that emotionally it’s not feeling so intense anymore.

[00:19:16] Jenet: It’s more so practical now when I have to do it, it just has to get done, like you, you know, your car’s not starting, what are you going to do? It just has to get done,

[00:19:25] Linzy: Okay. So with that, then like what I’m hearing is it’s kind of like you’re, you’re still just living life normally, right? I don’t think you’re necessarily spending more because you’re putting a lot of money on the debt, but it just does mean that when those unexpected things come up, the credit card is the tool or that you have to pay it down because there isn’t this cash buffer, right?

[00:19:44] I don’t know if the issue is that you’re paying it off too aggressively and then needing it.

[00:19:52] It sounds to me like that causes the emotional duress which used to be much worse. Now it’s just kind of like, ugh, okay, I got to use the credit card again because I need my car to start. So, but it doesn’t sound to me like it’s actually costing you more financially.

[00:20:03] Right? It’s not kind of like when people go into the like the restrict and purge with money where by restricting you actually end up spending more because you’re denying yourself. To me it just sounds like where the money is, if you’re putting it on the credit card, and you’re putting money on the credit card more and you’re taking money off the credit card more.

[00:20:18] You’re just using the credit card more.

[00:20:19] Jenet: Yeah,

[00:20:19] Linzy: But what I’m hearing overall is this debt is not going away as fast as you want it to, which is more a question of having extra money that you’re not going to need, right? Like that extra money in your household budget that isn’t going to be called on to take care of your life.

[00:20:32] Jenet: yeah, I think what’s, what’s coming up for me is, you know, I still use the Profit First, structure.but as I’m talking this through, I realized that my profit line, anything that comes up in that, whatever that number is, it goes to my debt. I’m not putting it away for profit. part of this might be, Talking it through, part of this might be a man made problem…

[00:20:56] Might be, you know, very self-inflicted. But it’s also, I kind of hear one of my clients’ voices now, you know. It’s like, so what am I supposed to do? I’m just supposed to, you know, stay in debt forever?

[00:21:07] Linzy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And the answer is no. Definitely not. Right? What it makes me wonder is where’s the actual problem and where’s the actual spot where an intervention can happen to make the solution? Right? Because, I know that your practice… You said you have a six figure practice, which is awesome.

[00:21:24] You’re also, if I remember, like a solo earner, right? And you have a child.

[00:21:29] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:21:30] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. I’m just going to say, as a starting place, that makes life harder. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. But it’s like, there isn’t that second income to like, share the groceries. It’s like, it’s all on you.

[00:21:42] Are you still using your profit first calculator?

[00:21:44] Jenet: I do. I do. And so, the S-corp pays me two times a month and then everything that is remaining from that month, from my business gets put into the profit first calculator and then distributed accordingly.

[00:21:58] Linzy: Okay. Yeah So you’re getting those distributions after your set paycheck, then everything else gets divided. Okay, great.

[00:22:04] Jenet: That set paycheck that you’re getting home, how much is that per month?

[00:22:08] Yeah, so I’m only paying myself 2,600 two times a month.

[00:22:12] Linzy: Yeah, okay, yeah. And

[00:22:13] Are you taking extra money out of the business then, like that profit money that we’re talking about?

[00:22:17] Jenet: Yeah, and so there’s taxes that are on the 2, 600. And then I put away for taxes for the profit as well. So taxes are another line item. Even though my accountant pulls taxes for the 2, 600, I have a line item for taxes for the profit.

[00:22:33] Linzy: Yes, which is great. And how much is that? That profit money that you get to take out?

[00:22:38] Jenet: So let’s say about, there’s an extra 5,000 after payroll, right, remaining, in the business for the month. And so that will come out to about 1,250 in profit.

[00:22:49] Linzy: So what I’m adding up is 5,200, like two 2,600 dollar paychecks, plus an extra 1,250 is 6,450.

[00:22:58] And I’m curious, like, how much is your basic cost of living? Like for rent or mortgage,

[00:23:04] Jenet: Yeah. I would say the 52 pretty much covers my cost of living, including my daughter, grocery, mortgage, et cetera.and

[00:23:19] Linzy: base living.

[00:23:20] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:23:21] Linzy: And then the 1250?

[00:23:22] Jenet: The 1250 is typically going to debt.

[00:23:24] Linzy: Debt. Right. That goes onto your debt. But then something else comes up and then you end up taking out the debt to pay for something else. Okay. So, with this, two things that I’m thinking about. One is, with money as it is,

[00:23:37] can you look at putting more towards the debt, right, and keeping that money on the debt, right, like basically reducing your living expenses so that, you know, your life is costing you a lot less than 6,450. Because what I’m hearing is the 5,200 covers like your normal living expenses, but of course there’s these annual expenses that come up, these one time expenses, the emergency expenses, right?

[00:23:59] And so that’s, that would be one angle on this, Jenet, right? Is like, how do you bring down your living expenses more so that the 6,450 is like more than enough. And even if your car breaks,

[00:24:11] you can still pay for that and leave money like the pay down on the debt is still going steadily. That’s one thing.

[00:24:18] Do you see spots for wiggle in your personal living expenses?

[00:24:21] Jenet: I’m not going to say no. Because when I started your course, I felt the same way. Like there’s no room for wiggle. And then somehow I’m living off of 5, 200, you know? And

[00:24:32] Linzy: 5,200. Yes.

[00:24:33] Jenet: Yeah. So I will never say never. I’m pretty sure it’s possible. I just don’t know what that looks like.

[00:24:40] Linzy: Okay. Okay. So there’s a maybe there. There’s some possibility, some curiosity. Maybe there’s something, a few things that you could eliminate because something we talked about in the course is like this kind of slow and steady with debt, right? Like, how do you set a slow, steady pace with a goal?

[00:24:56] Which is like starting to look at my debt is 8, 000. I want to pay it down in two years. I’m going to slowly pay it down and

[00:25:04] Jenet: Okay, see I’m glad you said that. Because when I hear paying down 8, 000 in two years… we’re taking two years to do that?! Thank you.

[00:25:15] Linzy: Maybe, I don’t know. Tell me what was that? What just came up?

[00:25:17] Jenet: Yeah. So that’s, I mean, I’m curious about that. Like, where do we get the two years number from? And I think that is the problem where I… I have probably just such a poor relationship with debt that even though I can acknowledge that it gets us to a place to be able to do certain things temporarily within our lives that we weren’t able to, it’s still like, you need to pay, you shouldn’t have it.

[00:25:40] You know, like it shouldn’t be there. And so when I hear like a two year goal, honestly, when I hear the two year goal, I’m like, okay, there’s, that’s relief. That’s the relief I needed to hear, but I’m also, there’s that part of me. That’s like two years. Linzy, no! There’s eight months left in this year.

[00:25:57] We need to use those eight months to pay off the rest.

[00:25:59] Linzy: You gotta like, get her done. And part of where I’m suggesting this, Jenet, is the get her done strategy is not working for you.

[00:26:06] Jenet: it’s not, it’s

[00:26:08] Linzy: It’s not. For some people it works. I have known people before who can be very self sacrificing, eat very simply, not buy any new clothes, wear stretched out old clothes, you know, cause they don’t care.

[00:26:21] Cause they’d rather, you know, pay down debt and have money in the bank. What I’m hearing is for you, it doesn’t seem to be giving you the results that you want, So let’s talk actual numbers. How much debt are you paying down?

[00:26:33] Jenet: Okay, I just pulled that up.

[00:26:36] It has increased. We’ve had some big expenses with my car recently. I just mentioned so… When I was with your program, it was only like, you know, 6k. No big deal. Now it’s at 9k unfortunately. Like 9. 8 is where we are. Mm hmm

[00:26:57] Linzy: Okay. So almost 10K if we’re going to be rounding.

[00:27:00] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:27:01] Linzy: Your debt is growing with this strategy. Yeah. And what emotions go with that for you?

[00:27:07] Jenet: Laughter.

[00:27:10] Linzy: Yes. Not an emotion. Probably more of a coping, but…

[00:27:14] Jenet: yeah. Because it’s, you know, I think you said it, like it’s not working for you, that you want it to work for you. I’ve sacrificed what I believe I can sacrifice to make it work for me. And, it’s growing. Like you said, it’s growing, you know?

[00:27:31] Linzy: It’s going the wrong way.

[00:27:32] With this in mind then, I think there is going to have to be a two pronged solution here. Slow and steady. What if we just give your nervous system a break? What if your goal is to pay the debt down in two years? And, and to look at that, you can look at a credit card repayment calculator online. In fact, let’s look at one together right now, because I think it’d be good for us to have actual numbers here.

[00:27:53] Okay. So here’s one from Experian.

[00:27:56] want to find one that lets you set an amount of time and tells us how quickly you can pay it down.Okay. So your debt is 9, and I’m going to share my screen with you.

[00:28:05] Jenet: I was looking to see what my interest rate is on this card.

[00:28:09] Linzy: Yeah. That’s great.

[00:28:10] Jenet: That has to be a factor in it as well.

[00:28:12] Linzy: Okay. So, yeah. What’s your interest rate?

[00:28:15] Jenet: Here it is. Okay. 22.

[00:28:17] Linzy: 22. Okay.

[00:28:18] Jenet: 22.24.

[00:28:23] Linzy: So pay it off within a certain time frame. It automatically put two years. Just saying the calculator likes that number. So if we put this in, we’re just going to be curious, Jenet, of what’s going to come up. I’m going to calculate. And it’s saying you’d have to pay 510 a month. How does that number land with you?

[00:28:39] Jenet: I mean, that’s beyond manageable.

[00:28:41] Linzy: Okay. Beyond manageable is a good thing.

[00:28:44] Jenet: Mm-Hmm.

[00:28:45] Linzy: Okay. Okay. So beyond manageable. And what do you notice it feels to make a plan that is beyond manageable?

[00:28:50] Jenet: I’m more curious now as to… I think I’m a little frustrated now because it’s like, why have I been so resistant to that? Mm-Hmm.

[00:29:02] Linzy: So let’s… we’re going to pull it apart a little bit. We’re going to say part of you is frustrated with the part of you that has been like resistant, wanting to pay it down faster. The part that wants to pay it down faster. Why? Why does that part want to pay down as fast as possible?

[00:29:18] Jenet: I think it’s more so about my messaging around debt. Even though I feel like it’s not as emotionally charged as it used to be. I think it’s just more so, I don’t know where it’s at right now. It’s in a confused spot right now. It’s very gray right now.

[00:29:35] I can’t find the words to really articulate what my relationship with debt is right now.

[00:29:40] Linzy: Yeah. Maybe it’s in transition. Maybe it’s settling into something different and you don’t know what that is yet. Because part of what it makes me wonder about is like, you’re a recovering perfectionist. You like progress, right? Like we like to see shit getting done.

[00:29:52] It makes me wonder, What if you put no more money on this particular card and you just pay down this like 520 bucks a month so you see it shrinking and you keep the rest of the money in your personal bank account, and then you see what happens in terms of your personal expenses. Does that money give you enough to pay for the car repairs?

[00:30:12] Actually start to have an emergency fund at home where it’s like every month you’re also setting aside 400 bucks for emergencies, 500 bucks for emergencies, so three months later or four months later when that 1500 car repair comes up, you’re like. I got that. If we just separate these things out so that the debt is only going down, you get to see yourself make progress and you get to start to develop this money management system at home that anticipates that life lives.

[00:30:38] How does that sit with you?

[00:30:39] Jenet: The frustration is very prominent right now, Linzy. I’m not even going to lie. Like that’s just, I…

[00:30:44] Linzy: Don’t lie.

[00:30:46] Jenet: I’m very frustrated right now.

[00:30:48] Linzy: Tell me about the frustration.

[00:30:49] Jenet: I think it’s, I don’t know. I’m upset with myself. Listen, this is one of those things where it’s like, Okay, Jenet, you should have known, you should have done better. It’s like, why was I so resistant? Maybe I’m frustrated that my aggressive strategy didn’t work, isn’t working, didn’t work, you know?

[00:31:06] Linzy: It sucks.

[00:31:07] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Linzy: It sucks. It’s like, we want to know that when we make sacrifices, that when we make life hard, we’re going to get something back for it.

[00:31:15] Right.

[00:31:16] Linzy: And it didn’t work.. So I’m hearing frustration at the strategy.Is there more frustration at yourself, too?

[00:31:22] Jenet: I think it’s more frustrating… Because I’ve heard you say this. This is not my first time hearing you say slow and steady, you know? And so it’s also frustration for like, not listening, you know, So there’s some of that coming up and, and then also frustration because like, is it really that easy?

[00:31:46] Linzy: Hmm. Mm. Right.

[00:31:49] Jenet: It’s been feeling so hard. And then When I see it this way, it’s like, yes, it’s two years, but where are you gaining? You know, what are you getting from that?

[00:32:02] Linzy: Is there a belief that money is hard? So you’ve been making it hard. And so just thinking that it could be easy, it just doesn’t fit with what you’ve believed or what you’ve learned or what you’ve experienced.

[00:32:15] Jenet: I think it’s a belief that, well, not even a belief, just my experience with it has been hard. And so that’s my reality. It’s been hard. And then to see this laid out as an…

[00:32:27] Linzy: yes.

[00:32:28] Jenet: it’s relatively simple to see that. And so that is also frustrating. Like, You’ve been, you know, like walking through quicksand by your own choice, you know, by your own choosing, you know?

[00:32:42] Linzy: Yes.

[00:32:43] I’m hearing a lot of self judgment here.

[00:32:52] Okay. So if we could soften this a little, if you can be kind, if you can be kind to Jenet of every moment in time up until three minutes ago. Because we like her.

[00:33:05] Jenet: yeah.

[00:33:06] Linzy: What would be a kinder perspective on how you’ve come to be in this place?

[00:33:11] Jenet: You’re learning how to make your money work for you.

[00:33:16] Linzy: And why did you end up where you were, where you were making things hard or being hard on yourself? Like, where did you learn that money is hard?

[00:33:23] Jenet: So part of me wants to say that I don’t know that I’ve learned money as hard. It’s just that it’s been my experience.

[00:33:31] Linzy: Which is learning.

[00:33:32] Jenet: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just through my experience,

[00:33:36] Linzy: Yeah. It’s been hard! Yes.

[00:33:39] Jenet: It’s been hard as a private practice owner, you know. I think it’s also discouraging to see all this money coming to your practice. But… So your business is thriving. I get my business savings looks amazing, you know, but it’s like, okay, on the other end, That’s where the disconnect is for me.

[00:34:04] And that’s, that’s frustrating as well.

[00:34:07] Linzy: For sure. that experience of money having been hard for so many years…

[00:34:12] it makes sense that it’s going to take you a minute to catch up to your new situation,

[00:34:16] to all that you’ve built, which I’m sure has been hard earned, right? To get to where you are, where now you can have a private practice and you can charge fees that get you paid well, right?

[00:34:27] Like all of that is decades and decades and decades in the making. So it makes sense that this becoming a possibility in the last few months that maybe this would have started to become possible that you could have the stability and connection with like, okay, I could do a slow and steady thing, and my money could serve in these other ways.

[00:34:45] That’s brand new compared to what’s happened in your life.

[00:34:49] That’s one piece that I’m thinking about here. The other piece is systems.

[00:34:53] Jenet: Mm.

[00:34:54] Linzy: You’ve built a system in your business that’s working for you,

[00:34:57] right? You’re talking about your business savings. So it also makes me curious about, you know, What are some systems that could be added in at home?

[00:35:02] So your home is getting the same kind of intentionality that your business is getting.

[00:35:08] Jenet: Absolutely. I don’t know if it’s… if there’s a way to like do like a microcosm of profit first with my personal expenses, you know,

[00:35:18] Linzy: For sure.

[00:35:19] Jenet: And a lot of my intentionality with my business has been to like. Over prepare and over save because of my former CPA, the 20K in debt. I think I told you a little bit about that. And so like making sure I have enough in savings to cover, this tax season or whatnot, which I do, which is great.

[00:35:41] I see how I am able to save, and I am able to prepare, and I’m able to pull from that. So I see that. I think it’s frustrating that it’s not translating to my personal life.

[00:35:51] Linzy: Yes. It hasn’t translated yet. Two questions. One,

[00:35:55] Linzy: you said you have lots of tax savings, like so you’ll be ready for this year. Do you think you might have some extra

[00:36:00] Linzy: that you saved last year?

[00:36:01] Jenet: Yes. I’ve saved way more than what I need.

[00:36:04] Linzy: Well, how much is way more?

[00:36:05] Jenet: I would say over 5k. Yeah. Extra.

[00:36:09] Linzy: Thinking about that 5k.

[00:36:10] If half of that 5k became your kind of emergency fund, your buffer at home, and half of it went on to your debt?

[00:36:20] Jenet: And so does that mean I’m not going to just have anything in my savings then?

[00:36:24] Linzy: You’ll be saving for this year’s taxes.

[00:36:26] Jenet: I mean, I know it’s going to regrow again, but Linzy!

[00:36:29] Linzy: Yeah, I know. But like, what I’m pointing out to you is like, first of all, there’s no reason to hold tax money from a previous tax season. Once your taxes are settled out and you know, okay, last year I over saved by five grand. I’ve already got my quarterlies like locked and loaded and started for this year.

[00:36:43] That money is not serving you sitting in your business because you’re not going to suddenly owe extra, extra next year because you’ve got a system locked in. You know that you’re saving an amount. You have an accountant keeping an eye on things with you. It’s not serving you. So what I’m hearing is your business is getting this like, super disciplined Jenet, who’s like, no, no, no, we will keep it there.

[00:37:03] And your home is getting this tightness and scarcity and like, Oh shit, I put money on the credit card again. Right. There’s a lack of integration there.

[00:37:12] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:37:13] Linzy: So part of it is a disciplined private practice owner, you know, like blossoming money boss Jenet over here. She needs to spend time at home.

[00:37:22] Jenet: Yeah.

[00:37:23] Linzy: Needs to make sure that you spread the wealth, like literally, that you’re spreading the wealth between your business, once you know those funds are available, and these personal pieces at home that have a serious impact on your daily quality of life.

[00:37:35] Jenet: Right.

[00:37:36] Linzy: What do you think about that?

[00:37:37] Jenet: I mean it, that is the goal

[00:37:39] Linzy: Yeah. Okay. Is there anything in the way of that goal?

[00:37:42] Jenet: I heard you say to disperse the remainder of the savings. I’m hearing you say like, that’s the strategy to do?

[00:37:50] Linzy: Not just savings, but your tax money that you saved from last year. Yes. So, I mean, in your business, it’s also to your benefit to have some operating expense buffer as well, right? Like, we don’t want you going down to, like, nothing. I also want you to have a bit of a buffer in your OpEx so that there’s a bit of money for next month or the next couple months.

[00:38:08] But otherwise, there’s no advantage to you just holding 5, 000 of cash in your tax account that you actually know you don’t need for last year’s taxes because you will be saving for this year.

[00:38:18] Jenet: Okay. That’s true. That’s true. That is true.

[00:38:22] Linzy: Future Jenet has this locked down, right? Like you have a system that’s working.

[00:38:26] Jenet: Okay.

[00:38:27] Linzy: If you can see that 5, 000 coming from your business, crossing the barrier into home and being dispersed between your credit card and starting to create, Like an emergency fund. How does that feel?

[00:38:41] Jenet: It feels unnerving a bit. Yeah. I don’t know why.

[00:38:44] Linzy: What’s unnerving about it?

[00:38:45] Jenet: It feels unnerving to like… I’m using the word mess up and that might not be the appropriate word, but that’s what’s coming up… Like mess up what I have over here at my business. to clean up what’s over here, you know,

[00:38:58] Linzy: I’m going to challenge you.

[00:39:00] You’re not messing up what you’ve done in your business. Your business has done exactly what it’s supposed to do, which it’s helped you to save and actually over save. And now your business’s job is to take care of you. Like you are the beating heart of your business.

[00:39:14] Linzy: You need to be well, and there’s no higher purpose that your business could serve

[00:39:18] than to help you have more ease and less stress at home so you can show up even better and even more present in the business.

[00:39:26] Jenet: Yeah. I’m a little apprehensive, Linzy, but I’m hearing you.

[00:39:31] Linzy: it. I hear it. I hear it. I hear it. Yes. Yes. So let’s think about action steps coming out of this conversation because we’ve covered a good amount of ground. Thinking about your next steps. What do you need to do coming out of this conversation to start to put some of these pieces in action?

[00:39:45] Jenet: You know, I think the other thing is a part of me, I don’t know that I trust myself anymore now. That’s the part of me is like, I don’t want to do anything until someone actually looks at my finances because like I, you know, and I hear, see you shaking your head. Okay.

[00:40:03] Linzy: And now that we have YouTube, people will see me shaking. My hair is bobbing in a funny way when I do it too. No. I mean, I hear that you’re hesitant. I want you to own your badassery. That’s not a word I use very much. But like, you have built a system in your business that works.

[00:40:16] It’s working. It’s continuing to work. Right. So like, I’m not saying like, jump right away. I’m saying once your taxes are settled out, your accountant says, there’s your tax bill. You’ve paid it. You can look back and see, okay, this is how much I put aside for last year. I’m already saving for this year.

[00:40:32] Maybe even revisit your percentages. Maybe you could bring it down a

[00:40:35] Jenet: I think I could bring it down 100%. This is very aggressive.

[00:40:38] Linzy: Because like, you should not be over saving in your business when you are hurting at home. That’s not integrated, right? We want separation, but we also want you to be okay.I wouldn’t like, actually challenge you to trust yourself and take action, right?

[00:40:57] I think you need to really settle into your power. Because part of what I’m hearing is you’re waiting for this accountant to tell you what to do.

[00:41:04] They can’t, they can’t tell you what to do,

[00:41:06] right? Like they could also make suggestions, right? But like you’re the boss, like, you know where the money is going to serve you well, you know where things are working, you know where they’re not.

[00:41:16] Linzy: Nobody, nobody can make that work except you, right? So I, part of it is I’m challenging you to own… own the skills that you have developed that I don’t think you’re really owning yet.

[00:41:29] Right? Because we started, obviously this is a coaching session, so we’re not coming just to talk about everything that’s working.

[00:41:34] But we started by talking about at home, how you feel like you’re kind of failing, falling behind, this debt is growing. Meanwhile, in your business, you have more than the extra debt that you’ve accumulated sitting in your business in cash. So both of these things are true. Both at home, this strategy has not been working and in your business, you’re kicking butt. You’re a disciplined queen of the universe. Right? Like both of these things can be true.

[00:41:56] Jenet: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:41:59] Linzy: So if you could trust yourself, what would be your next step coming out of this conversation?

[00:42:04] Jenet: My next step would be to create a two year plan. Which, I mean, we’ve kind of already done.?? That feels very safe to do. And, and then also think about how I can leverage that 5K to set a foundation.

[00:42:26] Linzy: Yes, What do you think about the idea of not using that credit card anymore?

[00:42:33] Jenet: Oh, that’s fine. I have no problem not using a credit card. 100%.

[00:42:39] Linzy: Okay, so you’re going to stop using that credit card. Let’s even say if you need to have a credit card for something, use a different credit card. Let’s almost like separate out these two bits of debt,

[00:42:51] Jenet: Okay. When you say that, tell me what you mean.

[00:42:55] Linzy: What I mean is you have been feeling this defeat because you’re not seeing progress happen on this card.

[00:43:00] What I want you to get the experience of is a card that’s just going down. You’re just seeing yourself pay it down, pay it down. It’s not growing again. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to have to use a credit card sometimes, but you could have a different credit card use at home. You put your car payment on it, you pay it off in cash.

[00:43:15] You start to develop that habit of paying down that card in cash every month. So it can still be part of how you manage cash, but it’s not a debt that’s growing. It’s just like another tool you have in your bank, but you pay it off every month while this credit card with the 9, 800 is steadily going down 500 bucks is going on it every, every month, and you’re seeing it go down, down, down over the next two years.

[00:43:36] Jenet: Okay. I think I get it. I, but tell me why I would need another credit card again.

[00:43:41] Linzy: if you need a credit card to make online purchases or… Yeah, that’s all. You might not need it. You might not need it at all. If you have a visa debit, you just might not need it. Was that a sigh of relief there?

[00:43:52] Jenet: Well, yeah, because what I don’t want to do is create the problem on another credit card.

[00:43:56] Linzy: Exactly. If you can get away with not having another card, I would say do that. Do that. Because what you are going to be doing is keeping more money in your bank account. You’re going to be starting to build a cash buffer in a savings account, which means that when the car repair comes up, you’re just going to pay in cash.

[00:44:12] So yes, I think that that is beautiful. If you can just… Your credit card is just going to go down. There’s going to be no other credit card. You’re going to be dealing in cash in the future. Okay. So that’s the next step. Stop using the credit card. So what I have here is create your two year debt repayment plan,

[00:44:27] which could be just like walking in the numbers that we just looked at or playing with them a little bit on a calculator, leverage that 5, 000 to set your foundation at home.

[00:44:35] Stop using that credit card. And just start paying with cash at home.

[00:44:39] Absolutely. So, what are you taking away from our conversation today?

[00:44:43] Jenet: You know, that aggressiveness, that professional aggressiveness is… It no longer serves… It hasn’t served me in a while in other areas of my life. And I’ve come to terms with that, but I think this is probably one of the last places where I was holding onto it.

[00:45:01] Linzy: Yeah, and part of me wonders, you know, like, from kind of like a parts of self perspective, where this is a part that’s trying to take care of you. How can you thank that part for what it’s been trying to do for you? Because that part cares about you, right? But you’re going to start going with a different strategy.

[00:45:14] Jenet: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:45:16] Linzy: What do you notice when you think about that?

[00:45:19] Jenet: Tearful. You know, I get it. It’s more about trying to keep myself safe and be proactive, but it’s not working.

[00:45:29] Linzy: Yeah, and you have, some new strategies that you can try now.

[00:45:32] Jenet: Absolutely.

[00:45:33] Linzy: Awesome. Jenet, thanks for coming on the podcast.

[00:45:36] Jenet: This has been great. I appreciate it. 

[00:45:53] Linzy: At the beginning of the podcast today, Jenet mentioned this piece about grace and giving herself grace. And she started by actually talking about grace, about needing help and like more support with her finances, having to give herself grace for that, because as a recovering perfectionist, she wants to be able to do everything herself.

[00:46:10] But now that I’m reflecting back on our conversation, I think the grace that could really serve her, and all of us as we’re managing our finances, is more of that grace around your goals and debt and setting a plan that gives you breathing room, especially as a solo earner, a solo parent. There’s so much that Jenet’s money needs to do for her, and this aggressive strategy that she set, which might work very well for some folks in certain situations, was not working for her.

[00:46:39] So I think a lot of the grace that’s actually called for when we are doing something really difficult that’s not working is the grace around letting ourselves make it easier, not make it painful. Make a plan that’s actually doable so that we can be paying down that debt but still also taking care of our life.

[00:46:57] And this is something we’ve talked about before on the podcast. This episode also reminds me of the conversation that I had with Erin Davis earlier. And in both these cases, we’re also talking about parents, right? Like people with young kids and that’s such a specific period of life.

[00:47:08] There’s definitely going to be times in your life where a more aggressive debt repayment strategy can make sense. When you’re in your 20s, you know, when you’re partnered with no kids, or when you’re single, or if you’re not planning to have kids and that’s not part of the equation, or if you’re older, and you’re ready to like really power up your savings, there can definitely be times that we have the bandwidth and the ability to be more aggressive and be very single minded about our finances, if that’s something that feels helpful to you.

[00:47:34] And there’s also times when we can’t. And when we do, as Jenet was experiencing, it just causes pain. And it causes that experience of failing, right? Because it’s like she’s trying to pay down her debt so aggressively, but there’s no cash, so then she’s having to put money back on debt.

[00:47:48] And even though, as I mentioned, logically, it’s still means that she’s paying less interest by doing that, the experiences that she’s losing, right? And so what we’re setting her up for now is an experience of winning where she’s going to be able to actually see that debt disappear and see herself saving money at the same time.

[00:48:04] The cashflow might actually look very similar to how money is being spent in some ways, but her experience of it is going to be so, so, so much more positive as she sees that credit card debt shrinking and that emergency fund, that buffer at home, growing. I think that’s going to be a very different felt and lived experience for her.

[00:48:22] And as she mentioned, something we’ve had to talk about a couple of times, which is true for all of us. We all have things that we need to revisit a few times until it shifts and it sinks in. So I’m very excited for Jenet implementing this new strategy around her debt. And I’m very grateful for her coming on the podcast today.

[00:48:40] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And. If you’re enjoying the podcast, leaving a review on Apple podcast is super, super helpful for us. Just so you can share what episodes you’ve been enjoying, what you really appreciate about the podcast or any big takeaways you’ve had from the podcast.

[00:48:56] That is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today.

[00:00:00] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to another Feelings and Finances episode of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast.

[00:00:06] These episodes are the place where I answer your questions, the lovely therapists and health practitioners and listeners of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And today’s question is from Lisa. Here’s your question.

[00:00:18] Lisa: Hi, Linzy, Lisa here. Here’s my question. How do I create and sustain my interest in looking at my money, and figuring out money, and all of that stuff? I mean, that seems to be my biggest stumbling block. Right now I’m making money and there’s certainly money anxiety, but so many of your tools have been helpful in looking at that, but actually finding the sustained interest to follow through on the time, like the money time that I might put in my calendar, to actually generate the interest to do it…

[00:00:57] I’m really having a hard time with any ideas around that?

[00:01:01] Linzy: Thank you so much, Lisa, for your question. I think this is a question that many folks listening to this podcast will relate to, which is how do you keep coming back to something when maybe the pain is not atrocious, right? Like you, as you say, you’re making money. And Lisa is a local therapist in Guelph, Ontario, the same place that I live.

[00:01:23] So I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Lisa in person and chatting a bit about her business. So I know, Lisa, that you charge a good fee. I know that you’re full. So it’s not like you are. in dire straits, right? And when we’re in dire straits, the pain is greater than that fear of changing, or that pain of changing, right?

[00:01:40] But what I’m hearing is for you, things are comfortable enough that it’s hard to maintain that drive, right? That commitment. So my first thought is coming back to the very first step of the process that I lay out in Money Skills for Therapists, and that I believe is the process that therapists benefit from following when we’re working on our money, period, which is commit, clarify,

[00:02:06] adjust, implement. Right? So this is really about that commit stage. The committing is where we both emotionally and practically make money possible, make working on money in our lives possible, by really connecting with where we’re at and what we need. So the first thing that I’m thinking about is going to that more emotional part of amplifying the pain. Right? I’m hearing you’re not in atrocious pain, which is great. I love that for you. But there’s a reason that you follow me. There’s a reason that you’re consuming my content. And so my question is, what is it that’s not working? What is it that has brought this issue to your attention and has made this content that I put out in the world relevant for you?

[00:02:48] Right? Where is the pain? And taking some time to dig into that. It’s easy to avoid that, right? But that doesn’t mean that it’s not there. It’s like, I remember when I was practicing trauma therapy, folks would say Oh, well, this event doesn’t bother me because if I don’t think about it, it’s fine.

[00:03:02] And it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s not the definition of trauma. The definition of trauma is if we do you think about it, then there’s like that activation and overwhelm, whether you go into an aroused state, or whether you drop into like a shutdown state. It’s too much when you do think about it.

[00:03:16] So I would say the same thing for you, Lisa, is like approaching it. What happens when you do actually approach what isn’t working? When you think about it. What is not happening in your life because of your relationship with money, right? Are you saving enough for retirement? Are you going on the trips that you want to go on?

[00:03:32] Are you seeing yourself living the balance that you want? Are your personal goals actually happening, right? Leaning into whatever that is that’s not working to think about if you keep going, what is your life going to look like? You know, what is going to happen, but also if you keep going this way, what is not going to happen?

[00:03:50] Right? Like, do you have a dream of taking your kids to Disney? But the only way that’s going to happen right now is if you put 15, 000 of debt on your credit card, and you know that’s going to be a great pain to yourself, right? So you might just not even take that trip. Or do you want to be able to live a split life in your retirement and like spend some time in another place?

[00:04:08] But the way that your retirement savings are going right now, that’s definitely not going to happen. Whatever that is for you, lean into the pain, right? Lean into the what’s not working. And I would suggest doing this by journaling, talking to a spouse, talking with other trusted friends and colleagues about money, like really make this front and center.

[00:04:26] The second piece then, Lisa, is like leaning into the pleasure. What becomes possible if you actually spend your time on your money, right? What does it feel like to have that anxiety go away? What could you use that reclaimed time and energy for if money anxiety wasn’t in your life? What are some versions of your life that are so amazing that you almost can’t even think about wanting them because the way that money is working right now, it’s not possible, right?

[00:04:50] Is that taking the whole summer off every year to be with your kids? Is that building a beautiful reading room off the back of your house? Right? Is that working three days a week? There’s all of these versions of our lives that often we can’t even let ourselves dream about because they’re so far away

[00:05:06] that letting yourself start to be honest about what would be just so wonderful and perfect for you for this perhaps one and only human life that you are living… That’s another way to start to lean into making the work worth it. Right. The last thing that could be helpful for you to think about, I know that you are a parent, is to think about what do you want to model to your kids?

[00:05:27] Right. As we are living our financial lives, our children are. are watching us, and the young people in our lives are watching us, and we are teaching them lessons every single day, right? So are you living the financial life that you want your kids to live? Are you modeling the values and the behaviors that you want your kids to have when they get older?

[00:05:45] Because they are absorbing all of that from you, right? Like we know kids are little sponges and they are absorbing our behaviors, they’re making meaning of our behaviors, whether or not we actively explain it to them. So that’s something I think about with my own son is like, when I say things, even if I say something offhand like, oh, we don’t have money for that.

[00:06:04] He takes that to be reality, right? Even if we kind of do have money for it, but I’m actually choosing not to spend it. The way that I’m modeling how I talk about money, the way that I am making decisions around money, that is what he is inheriting as his own money scripts that he’s going to have to choose to either keep or let go of, when he does his own work as an adult.

[00:06:24] So that’s also something to think about is what is the life you want to be modeling for your kids? What is the relationship to money you want to be modeling for kids? Are you doing that now? And if not, again, making that front of center. All of this, Lisa, is about making your reasons for making money work for you

[00:06:39] front and center, right? The last thing that I think about, actually, when I think about this is the meaning of money. I’m playing way, way, way in the back of my mind with the idea of writing a book, which is kind of hilarious because I don’t like writing, but I’m starting to feel like I want to pull all my ideas together.

[00:06:53] And the phrase, The Meaning of Money has been bouncing around in my head. Probably somebody has already written that book. I haven’t looked it up yet, but that’s the last thing to think about is like, what is the meaning of money for you? What can it do for you in your life? Is money about helping you have time with like family and community?

[00:07:09] Right? What are the best parts of life that money can make more of? Is it quiet time? Is it adventure and travel? Is it connection with your community? Is it charity and giving? Is it social justice? Money is such a powerful tool, but when we’re not actually wielding it confidently, and when we’re not powerfully directing it where it needs to go, it’s not going to be reflecting our values in the way that it ultimately could.

[00:07:34] So there’s maybe my last thought for you. I’ve kind of given you a bunch of seeds, Lisa, like scattering seeds so you can see which one takes. Because I don’t think there’s one answer to this question, but the ultimate answer is you need to make that deep commitment to yourself and hook into what it is in you that is going to allow you to make that commitment.

[00:07:50] Whether that’s pain, whether that’s pleasure, whether that’s modeling to your kids, whether that’s your values and letting money bring those values into your life, letting you live your values… Whatever that motivator is, you need to make it front and center. So you can do that by journaling. Right?

[00:08:06] Spending time with these questions, bringing things that come up to your own therapy work, right? Those deeper things… You can do that by talking with your spouse. Are we living our financial values? Is this the life we actually want to live? Are we modeling to our kids what we want their money stories to be in the future?

[00:08:23] Right? So it’s that putting it out in the world. You can join courses, come to calls, you know, like Money Skills for Therapists, come to calls, where there is community and where you can show up and talk about these things, but it’s putting it in your own face because it is easy to avoid.

[00:08:39] And we all know that money is easy to avoid. So the key is to get yourself connected with it in such a way that it becomes more important than the comfort of avoiding so that you could actually make money do whatever it is that you want it to do. So those are my thoughts for you, Lisa. I’m excited for you as you keep digging into this part of the puzzle for you.

[00:08:59] Sometimes getting started and staying committed is that hardest part, and it sounds like it is for you. So this is really where the work is for you is to really spend time with these questions and this avoidance and resistance, that’s, you know, just manifesting probably as like, Oh, there’s more interesting things to do,

[00:09:16] and letting yourself actually connect with what you really want and what’s really happening for you under the surface when it comes to money. Thanks so much Lisa for your question, and for folks listening if you have a question for me, it is super super easy to leave me a question. All you need to do is head over to our podcast page.

[00:09:37] You scroll down just a little you’ll see a little box. You know, do you have a question for Linzy? You literally just press record, just introduce yourself, and ask your question, and that’s it. It’s super, super simple. And then I can answer when your questions on one of these feelings and finances episodes. We’ll also put a link in the show notes for you to do that.

[00:09:53] Putting your questions out in the world really is a gift to all of us to just have more and more conversations happening about money. This is still one of the great taboo topics. And I know that it can be scary. I know it can be intimidating, but also it is so helpful to literally thousands of people when you ask your question on this podcast.

[00:10:12] So thank you so much, Lisa, for your question. Thank you everyone for listening and joining me on the podcast today.

[00:00:00] Stephanie: This may be shifting something there for you, and it’s challenging, But I would say it’s more powerful because over time you do repeat yourself. You do have a toolbox of like 20 things that you say to people, and when you can sort of pull that out and map that out, it actually frees you from needing it to be on you.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s podcast episode is with Stephanie Clairmont. Steph is returning to the podcast. This is her second time on the podcast with me, and Steph’s business is The Leveraged Practice, which is all about helping therapists and health practitioners build online programs.

[00:01:08] In the time that I’ve known Steph, I have seen an increase in my own students talking about wanting to expand what they do, wanting to take the one on one conversations that they’re having with clients and expand into a course, or a membership community, and Steph is always the name that I give if you want to take what you do

[00:01:29] clinically, the kind of treatment that you do with folks, if you want to turn that into a product. That is exactly what Steph teaches. But of course there is a lot to that. So today, Steph and I talk about some of the barriers that come up specifically for therapists, working with mental health therapists or folks who are more on the kind of sensitive side of the spectrum, who are in other health professions.

[00:01:50] We talk about the specific barriers that come up for folks like us as we’re stepping out and wanting to create something beyond one on one work. We talk about changes that are happening in the health space, the way that tech is starting to show up and change the way that people expect to access things, and the importance of paying attention to those changes, and being part of those changes or at least being aware of them. Claiming some of that for yourself.

[00:02:14] And then we also got into this conversation about control, and the work that we do as therapists. And the control that comes with being one on one with somebody, that attunement, and also the responsibility, and how we need to change our relationship to that when we decide to have a bigger impact and bottle up what we do to be able to help folks on a larger scale.

[00:02:36] There was lots to that conversation. I feel like that was a conversation that warrants more attention. Here is my conversation with Stephanie Clairmont. 

[00:03:00] Linzy: So Steph, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:03:03] Stephanie: Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here.

[00:03:05] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s been… has it been a couple of years since we recorded your last one? Is that true?

[00:03:10] Stephanie: I don’t know, maybe. Yeah, I was thinking this, I’ve got to get on the annual rotation, you know? Have my guests back, be back in the places.

[00:03:18] Linzy: Yes. So this is your return visit. And I know the last time you were on this podcast, some folks listening to this podcast actually ended up joining your course. So definitely what you were talking about, very relevant for the folks who are listening.

[00:03:31] And so where I wanted to start today, Steph, is I’m seeing in my own students, like in the folks who are in Money Skills for Therapists or Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, a very positive change. More and more, I’m seeing that folks who are doing one on one are realizing like, “Hey, this thing that I do, I could actually be doing this in a different way.”

[00:03:49] Like I could be teaching this. This could be a course. I could do some coaching. Like I could do this on a bigger level. But they are still busy therapists who have a full caseload. So there’s this question that I see them starting to grapple with. Which is like, where do you start? If you want to start to build something else,

[00:04:08] What is the first step of starting to move into offering what you do in a different way outside of one on ones?

[00:04:15] Stephanie: I’ll share with you what I often share as the first step. What I find is, And I… Just so you know, we have a lot of therapists in our community as well as dietitians, medical doctors, nurses, physiotherapy, all of our allied health professions and wellness professionals.

[00:04:29] That’s who we work with. I was a dietitian, I’m a retired dietitian now, but I have a lot of work with my lovely therapist clients. So in regards to where we start, for me in working with, you know, hundreds of people at this point, I find that you have to understand what it looks like and what it feels like because it’s so far out of your realm of, here’s the work I do.

[00:04:50] I work with people. Custom approach every single minute of every day where I base my education or guidelines on what they say. Very custom. That’s how it feels to you. And this feels very different. So I believe the first place you need to start with is to understand the different models of what we call online programs.

[00:05:09] So not just a course, although we could call it a program or a course, it doesn’t really matter. But the different models that you can do. And so, Linzy, the two most popular ones I would say from my clients, and especially therapists, are to start with a hybrid model, which means all the things that you repeat day to day.

[00:05:28] There are repeatable parts. I know you think it’s custom, but there are a lot of repeatable parts that you’re doing and saying over and over again. We can pull those out and put those into let’s just call it a 12 week program, or a 12 module program, and you can still offer one to ones, but maybe only once every month, or once every two weeks, if that gives you anxiety, and you’re used to weekly. So a hybrid program allows you to spread out the one to one appointments a little further apart because there’s education in between, and it allows a lot of my clients to actually shorten those appointments.

[00:06:00] So instead of a 55 minute appointment, it might be a 45 minute appointment, or even a 30 minute appointment over time. So you’re really finding freedom in the capacity to help people with less time, which is really cool. So you want to start to think about, or start to learn about these models.

[00:06:17] One is hybrid, so we still see people one to one, and then we have some group program elements. Another model would be a small group cohort. So that’s one where we take a maximum number of people. Eight people, 10 people, you know, start small and you run that group for again, eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, whatever you’d like to.

[00:06:37] And you meet with those people weekly, but it’s a small group. So I’m pulling away the layers of anxiety that might block you like, “Ah, so many people! I don’t know what I’m doing!” Or what if they aren’t getting the change, and I need to talk to them personally. Those are two great models to start out with.

[00:06:53] Another model that I think, Linzy, everybody always thinks about is just sort of that self study course.

[00:06:58] Stephanie: There’s no support, there’s no help. There’s literally not even email support. It’s just a self-study course. Those kinds of courses or programs, they sell for not very much, honestly, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks, a couple hundred dollars.

[00:07:09] So financially, it might not meet your goals, or your impact goals. Like you want to help hundreds more people or thousands of people. And you could with a smaller price point, but there’s still a lot of things that come into that. But what I want you to think about is in that product, there is no support.

[00:07:26] So if that gives you… I’m just talking a lot about anxiety today. But if that doesn’t make you feel good that you’re just going to put this thing out on the internet and hopefully people get results from it, then don’t do that. Don’t do self study. If you are a fine-tuned, revised version of your services, and you know that program can be an awesome self-study, which is rare in the very beginning, then that could still be an awesome option for you.

[00:07:52] It’s just what you’re doing with clients, but at a really affordable price point, 100, 200, you want to put that in the market. Maybe you have a wait list, or you have a lot of people that want to work with you. That can be a cool option.

[00:08:02] Stephanie: It does require some refinement over time. It’s a different type of service.

[00:08:06] So that’s sort of where we start is, you know, what direction do you want to go in? Also, just thinking about getting started. What you start doing in the next six to 12 months isn’t necessarily where your business lands five years from now, or even three years from now. So if you could start thinking about what you could do, the length of time could be shorter and just getting out there that’s sort of the beginning for me is the models and then it would be sort of that brainstorming stage.

[00:08:31] What are all those repeatable parts like I mentioned earlier? Just start writing them down every day. What did I repeat 10 times today? And that helps you start to create the online education component.

[00:08:42] Linzy: And I think the models make so much sense, because… I mean, and when you’re saying models, I’m thinking of the word container, too. it’s like, okay, what is the container that feels good for you, that doesn’t cause as much anxiety, to go to your anxiety word, right? And what I love about what you’re describing with, say, the hybrid model, is I can see how that still gives those of us who are used to having a lot of attunement, a lot of that. As you said, when you’re doing a session, it’s like every session is custom.

[00:09:06] Every session, you know, you’re sharing information and you are repeating information. You said it a lot of times, but you’re also getting the chance to read their response. Is this too fast? Is this too slow? Do they understand my language? Do I need to re-explain another concept that maybe they missed?

[00:09:18] Right. You’re getting to really customize and really attune to that person, whereas if you go all the way to what you’re talking about of the self study pre-recorded, which is, yeah, I think what we think of because that’s what we see from the people who we know. The really big people, they have self study, right?

[00:09:33] But they’ve also been doing this work for five years, 10 years, 15 years, and they have things that they know work. There is all this space in between where we can be bottling up some of it, but still having those human interactions that let us know that like people are getting it, like they’re getting the value.

[00:09:48] I could see that being reassuring for folks to start that way.

[00:09:52] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s why I said small cohort, too. if you really don’t because some people are like, “No thank you. I want to get out of one to one. I don’t have the capacity for this.” Then a small group like eight weeks, 12 weeks. You can even do six weeks if you want. It’s like ripping off that band aid. I always tell people at once you get Over this hump and you have run an online program, even if it’s for six weeks with four people,

[00:10:14] you will be a different version of yourself. You will have more confidence. You’ll be more excited about it. And that helps, Linzy. The length of time helps as well as what you mentioned there, where we make it a small group, or we add a couple of one to ones in there so we can connect with those people and really make sure that we’re learning along the way and helping.

[00:10:32] Linzy: Yeah. And then I think the next piece that I noticed coming up with my students is when they are starting to decide, okay, I want to build a course. I want to build a group. I want to build a membership site. They’ve got more of a sense of the container. What I see folks struggle with so much, Steph, is like investing the time.

[00:10:51] Right? Like actually putting the time. Because they have maybe a full caseload already. Usually by the time we start thinking about doing these things, it’s ’cause what we’re doing is working. Your practice is full, you’ve got clients galore, maybe coming out of your ears, endless wait list. And then it’s like you have to build this thing, but how do you fit it in?

So what do you suggest for folks with that piece of the puzzle? Once you decide, okay, I want the rubber to hit the road, how do you actually make it happen?

[00:11:07] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s great. And I’m really blunt when it comes to this. Just for any of you who have not met me before. I’m very honest about this, and I don’t think a lot of people do because it’s different from what you know, right? There’s a technology piece there, there’s a marketing piece there, and there’s the discomfort of teaching in a different way.

[00:11:33] And for some recording yourself on a camera, there are some uncomfortable moments that you will need to push through or work through if this is something you want to do. And that is totally cool. We all know like discomfort helps us grow, like I’m sure you’ve got literally a mantra on your wall right now about discomfort. So like we all know that. Do we want to do it or not is the question?

[00:11:58] So there are those moments. And so when I look at The time piece, just so you know, I’ve been launching online programs since 2013. That was my first online program. So I’ve created more than a hundred programs at this point, and worked with over 500 clients in launching theirs. So when you hear my advice, which you can agree or disagree with, that’s where it’s coming from.

[00:12:19] It’s not necessarily my opinion, but it’s like seeing what has actually worked for people. So number one is that you can pay money. You can keep working your full time job, you’re nine to five seeing all your patients, making that money that you’re making. You can take some of that money, and you can say, Hey, go build my course. Like hire a technician, like our company does tech, but whoever, like hire someone to technically build the course. Hire someone to create the web pages, like all of the pieces that need to be built around this, which is the technical aspect and web pages, you could pay for that. Take that off of your desk.

[00:12:52] That’s amazing. And that costs money. Okay. I’m going to start with money because you might actually prefer that. Because the other one is time. And in order to get the time, to me, there are two options. And Linzy, you can tell me if you have another option that you’ve seen work. But to me, there are really two options.

[00:13:09] One, you overwork yourself. So you do your normal job, you see all your patients, you make your money, you run your practice, you manage your people, and whatever hours that is in a week, let’s say it’s 40 hours a week, you are working evenings and weekends. And sacrificing friendship, party, basketball practice, all the things. Because it takes time, and you don’t want to take that time from your working hours.

[00:13:35] And so you just work your buns off evenings and weekends for, let’s say, two to three months to create the product you’re going to sell. Once you create a product, which is our program or our course, you have that baby forever. And you might refine it or tweak it or add to it or change it, but creating something that you can sell over and over again is so powerful.

[00:13:57] I think we could all have that, every single health professional, no matter what kind of thing you do, you could have that different way to serve people. So… But it does take, in my opinion, somewhere between eight to 12 weeks to actually create that of dedicated working time. So that’s another option. And the third option for time is…

[00:14:15] And I’ve done this, honestly, multiple times and it sucks, but to take time away from your working hours. So if you’re working 40 hours a week, if you’re seeing what would be an average caseload, Linzy, like maybe 30 people a week, is that a lot?

[00:14:30] Linzy: Yeah, mental health. It’s probably like 25 is more towards max. Yeah, maybe 20 to 25.

[00:14:37] Stephanie: So, let’s say we’re doing 25. Then if you’re doing 25, again, we could put those in four days, and then maybe you have one day, but you’re probably doing admin or other stuff there.

[00:14:47] So you’ve got to kind of look at your working hours, and you may cut back. You may cut back a whole day and work one day a week on this and literally take a pay cut.

[00:14:56] Take a full out pay cut, or another way that I really see successful is that you don’t actually take a whole day. A lot of people think they need that, but you take two to three hours a couple of days a week.

[00:15:06] Stephanie: And so again, you could work those longer hours, or you could take away, you know, let’s say four clients on a weekly basis. So you go from 25 to 21. And instead, during those, you know, two and a half, let’s call it, time blocks, you’re actually working on this. And again, it’s a pay cut. So you’re spending money hiring other people to do the work for you as much as you can, or you’re overworking yourself, which in my opinion is totally fine.

[00:15:31] You live your life. I have no judgment. If you’re going to pay money, overwork yourself, or take a pay cut, like it doesn’t matter, right? It’s your life. Nothing’s right or wrong. So you’re overworking yourself for a period of time. Cool. Lots of people do that. That’s how they push through. Or number three is we actually take a pay cut.

[00:15:47] And when I launched my membership, Linzy, I launched an IBS membership in 2017. This was like my big program that I grew and grew. We sold a hundred spots in the weekend when we launched it. I didn’t take a client, a one to one client, for three months while I built that membership. I created the courses.

[00:16:03] I did the tech myself. I graphically designed all the pages. Like I did so much of the work. I didn’t really hire a lot of people to help me, a little bit, but not too much. But it took me three months. Okay. And I was already pretty techie. And I want you to understand that because if you think about how much you’re making on a monthly basis… Let’s see, you’re making 10, 10 grand.

[00:16:23] I don’t know. Maybe you’re making more. Maybe you’re making less, but that’s 30 grand

[00:16:26] you will lose, which is fine, if you do it like all on your own, which I do think there’s a combination of hiring technical people to help us build stuff, you know, taking some time to create ourselves and whatnot.

[00:16:38] Stephanie: So I think there’s a blend there, but I have done that where I literally shut everything down, and I was like, I’m launching this product. And that product brought me to multiple six figures in my business, completely passive income every month. Like that sacrifice that I made there,

[00:16:53] I will, I just, I think it’s completely worth it.

[00:16:56] If you are doing something that people need help with, there are different ways we can serve our people these days, and online programs, courses, memberships, hybrid programs, all of it is just such a beautiful way to add to your practice.

[00:17:08] Linzy: And the word that comes to mind for me when you think about all three of those ways, you know, whether you pay somebody else, whether you basically use your free time, you invest your free time, or you give up money is like there is an investment, right? So it’s a cost in a certain sense, but it’s an investment if you actually get the return, right?

[00:17:27] And like what I see folks struggle with sometimes, Steph, and I’m wondering if you see this is I think a lot of times people struggle with like really buying in. And so where I see folks sometimes struggle is I guess probably part of it is that they’re so good at the other thing that they’re doing.

[00:17:42] And that thing, they’re experts. And it comes second nature and they could do it in their sleep, you know, they could counsel folks about eating disorders at three in the morning when they’re unconscious, right? They’re so good at it. But that’s all very familiar and comfortable. But all of these things, like you said, like tech and stuff, like there’s a huge learning curve and it’s not comfortable, and it’s not easy.

[00:18:02] And it’s a slog at first. The word that comes to mind for me is really it is a slog to learn all of these things, or even to have somebody else do them. Cause even if you’re having somebody else do them, you still have to make decisions, right? You still like… You’re still the boss of it. I think that creates a lot of friction for folks.

[00:18:17] Is that your, do you see that? Or do you think about that differently?

[00:18:20] Stephanie: Absolutely.

[00:18:21] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Stephanie: A hundred percent. I think that’s just a fact. I think you’re like, this is the truth, everybody. If this sounds exciting or fun or curious, like Linzy, I meet people… We just signed a new client, and she’s been thinking about this for over two years. Right? oh, I’ve had an idea for this course, this program.

[00:18:38] I want to help more people. I’d love to make a bit more money that’s highly profitable, high profit margins. it’s taken her two years, so if you’re listening, this is going to happen to me, too, a couple of years. That’s okay. That’s alright. A couple of things I would think about is one, if we could put our entrepreneur hats on.

[00:18:54] For practitioners, starting a business is a little different than other business owners, right? You’re using yourself. You’re leveraging your own skills, and what you learned, and a license, you know, a credential after your name, and you’re saying, I’m going to go serve people. I’m going to see people. I’m going to trade one hour for a dollar amount.

[00:19:12] It’s an interesting business because you can just whip it up out of thin air. You can do it from your own home. Now you can do it online and Zoom from your own home. You literally have barely any overhead. And so that’s really interesting. And I think that for many, you may not have actually felt like you crossed the line to entrepreneurship, to business ownership, because you’re doing your work just for yourself and it, you’ve really created a job for yourself.

[00:19:40] You have clients. I mean, I’ve met people, Linzy, that have no website and no software, but a very full six figure practice. And there’s… and I’m like sweating ’cause I’m like, you don’t… you, how do you chart? You don’t have a charting system? Like I a heart attack. I mean, I’ve been highly technical since I started my entrepreneurship journey because I like to leverage, and I want to be efficient with my time.

[00:20:04] I’ve always loved that and been curious about it. But so, you know, you may straddle between practitioner and entrepreneur, not really even feeling like you’re really like that business owner. And that can be really challenging because that’s what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about putting your business hat on, you’re a business owner.

[00:20:20] And what decision do you need to make for your business? And if we could just do that for a moment, my thought process is that we are in an age of technical. Oh my goodness. With AI, with the, if you look up e-learning, like the online education environment, and what it’s worth right now and how it’s growing, that’s online learning.

[00:20:42] If we look up the health and wellness industry, I actually just looked it up, Linzy, and posted a post on my Instagram, and it’s like trillions. Trillions. Health and wellness is worth trillions as an industry. Okay?, Online learning is worth billions as an industry. Am I doing that right? Trillions, billions, millions.

[00:20:57] Okay. I just did this to my kids last weekend too. I was like, what’s after billions, mom? Trillions. What’s after trillions? I don’t know.

[00:21:05] Can we Google? Can we Google it? So, yeah. We are in an industry where there’s a lot of need and a lot of opportunity. And so I do think it’s important that if you’re an expert and you love working with people and you see yourself doing this work over the next five to 10 years, that you critically think as a business, what do you need to be doing?

[00:21:24] Do you need to be online? Do you need to have. Some sort of online education or programs. So I think we have to sort of think critically as entrepreneurs and make smart business decisions. And like I said, that may work really smoothly for you. You feel like an entrepreneur, you feel like a business owner, or that itself may be difficult to make business decisions becauseI don’t think I felt like a business owner in the beginning.

[00:21:47] I was just a dietician seeing patients, trying to get by, trying to make some money, you know, and then I was like, “Oh wait, I actually want to make more money than this, and I want to work differently.” So then I became a business owner, an entrepreneur, and that kind of mindset, you know? Yeah. I’m curious what you think about that.

[00:22:02] Linzy: Yeah. Well, I’m, you know, I’m thinking about the entrepreneur hat and it’s I think for some folks, they may not really realize they have that hat yet. Or it’s I don’t know. to extend the hat metaphor, it’s like a small hat that’s kind of like teetering at the edge of their head, but they’re not like really wearing it, but it’s kind of there.

[00:22:19] And it protects them from the sun or the rain, but not really. That was a terrible analogy… Teetering hats, not really a thing. But it does make you think about that. Cause I, I noticed that with some of my students sometimes where it’s okay, sink into that space of that, like big picture thinking like that’s strategic.

[00:22:32] And folks are kind of like, Oh, this is like new, right? It’s like, there’s a new neural pathway that has to be formed there. And as you say, I think so many folks do think about themselves as a practitioner who just helps people. Right. I’m just a practitioner and I do my practitioner thing.

[00:22:46] And I do this thing that I’m super, super good at. But yeah, they’re running a business, but not owning that they’re running a business. Or maybe they even have feelings about the word business or like feelings about money. And so they’re making money because they have to pay bills. But for some folks, there’s still that ownership piece.

[00:23:00] Then for other folks, what I see is when people get settled in, you do get to that place of being like, okay, this is now working well enough. But it could be working better. And that’s where you start to be able to get into that place of developing actual business skills and strategy. And part of it is like owning what you’re doing.

[00:23:17] Like you’re running a business, whether you own that or not, that is exactly what you’re doing. In the eyes of the government, that is what you were doing. You will pay taxes on it, whether you think it’s a business or not. That can be almost like the step before all these other steps is owning that.

[00:23:32] Stephanie: Yeah. And I’m a worrier. And so I’m a little worried. Okay. And here’s what I’m worried about. And you can just take this as not a worry and just think of it as a business strategy as well, if I wasn’t worried. Here’s what I’m worried about. Tell me what you see, Linzy, but in our culture of health and wellness, what we’re seeing is a lot of big companies coming out with technical solutions, apps and whatnot, pain.

[00:23:57] Under pain: experts. Therapists with years of experience, dieticians with years of experience,and like credentials, and education, and fricking master’s degrees. And it’s 30 bucks an hour, whatever it is, right? We are seeing what I already explained about the opportunity, other companies coming up and creating this opportunity.

[00:24:16] And what I see, Linzy, is that the industries are not happy about that. In the Facebook groups, on the Instagram, like people are complaining about that. And so, well, okay, just don’t take that job and see what happens to that company. But if that company continues to grow, that’s because somebody is taking those jobs, right?

[00:24:34] And so we see that growing. We see the trend. We see the millions of dollars. We see that. And so what’s going to happen to our professions if we don’t stay up with the way that people are learning, with the way people are accessing care, with the way that people are healing or going through their journey of wellness?

[00:24:55] If we don’t stay up at the practitioner level… You are an entrepreneur, you own a business.At that level, if we don’t move with the times, I worry that brilliant life changing experts that I have met who don’t go there are, I don’t know what’s going to happen in five years. Now, right now, I think there’s a lot of practices that are full, that are busy, and it may not even feel that urgent.

[00:25:20] You know? I think there is a sense of for some of you, you may be like, oh man, I got to do this right now. I’ve been thinking about it for years, but others, I think there’s still a sense of well, my practice is full. And I can’t predict the future. Who knows, maybe it’ll be full forever and ever and ever.

[00:25:32] But when we look at the trends, we look at the industry, and we look at consumer behavior, and we look at our generations moving up, I would love for everyone to stay up on the times. And how do we do that? We find the time. We learn, again, we can hire people like when I started my business, we didn’t have Canva.

[00:25:48] We didn’t have things. I couldn’t do anything by myself. I had to hire graphic designers. I had to hire a web developer. Like I couldn’t do it by myself. Now there’s this huge pressure, I think, to figure out Canva, and make your own posts for the Instagram. Like you guys all have this pressure on you to do that.

[00:26:05] I don’t feel that pressure because I hired for 20 bucks an hour over 10 years ago because I literally couldn’t design a recipe card for my clients. You know, I put a lead magnet up on my website. I needed to hire someone to do it. So all the things. And so that’s okay. We can invest back in our business.

[00:26:23] But, that’s sort of my thought and my concern and my… What I want everyone to think about is how long are you going to have your practice? Where do you want your practice to go in five to 10 years? Who are you serving? How will that change? And then what do we need to do? It doesn’t have to be drastic.

[00:26:37] You know, we can make it as simple as possible, but I don’t know, that’s my worry around that. I don’t know if you have that worry or if you have any thoughts around where the industry is going as a whole.

[00:26:47] Linzy: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t have that worry, but maybe I do now. Thanks, Steph. I mean, part of what I think about is I can see the argument where it’s well, but folks still want connection. They still want that one on one. And that is true. You will always have people who are looking for these kind of like older school ways of connecting.

[00:27:07] Like I bought a record player. I like listening to it. It gives me a sense of the passage of time. I get up and change a record. That’s a very conscious choice that I’m making. But I think that you are right that generally speaking, the way that folks access information has really changed. How trustworthy we think those sources are has also changed.

[00:27:23] Like I remember, you know, remember when the internet started and you shouldn’t put your name online because, you know, somebody will come and snatch you from a schoolyard. Like it’s changed a lot in terms of just how much credibility these spaces have. And as you say, if we aren’t actually actively stepping in and claiming some of that space, there’s lots of tech bros from California who want to come take your job.

[00:27:42] They have no problem with that. They will come take your job and they will hire somebody for 30 bucks an hour to service your clients for a very poor wage, but flexible working conditions. Like they will Uberify therapy until the end of time. And there’s more and more of those companies all the time, right?

[00:27:58] So if we are not actively claiming space, and claiming our expertise, and also owning like no, I’m not going to make 45 an hour, like I’m going to make a really good wage, and I’m actually going to make a scalable wage, and I’m going to reach lots of folks even beyond one on one, then that is at this point that is us like pushing back against the tide, and it’s also us just like claiming that power. Because if we don’t like, it’s true,

[00:28:22] there are all these like tech solutions, quote unquote, that are going to be… we’re going to be competing with them.

[00:28:31] Stephanie: Yeah, and I mean, so we’ve talked about like, that’s sort of a negative lens on it, right? We share… I shared my worry because I really am worried, but we also talked about the opportunity, right? We talked about the opportunity in online learning, the opportunity in health and wellness as an industry, and you have to find your road.

[00:28:47] You have to find your why. You have to find where you want to sit. In this industry and how you want to help people. And it honestly can be anything. I think in this episode, Linzy, we are talking specifically to those of you who are curious about online programs. You are curious about getting louder in your community, about having a voice online.

[00:29:05] Maybe you’re seeing some of the things I’ve brought up, like, yeah, I want to claim a part of this space online and help people. And if that’s you, then you can be aware of the trends and then focus on the opportunity, focus on the people out there who are looking, who want to watch videos, who want to listen to audio, who want to learn that way.

[00:29:30] They may still be in one to ones, but I really early on when I launched online programs in like 2013, 2014, I learned that there are some people that can have the condition I help them with that will get results from a book..

[00:29:46] Stephanie: All they want is a 30 book and they healed their IBS. All they want is a 500 eight week course and they’re good.

[00:29:55] You know, I have learned that there… For the last decade, there are so many people out there that are actually looking, I want to say for like less of a solution than in person, you know, weekly, you know, sessions for a year or six months. There are a whole bunch of other people out there who are like, this is bothering me.

[00:30:16] Is there another way? How can I solve this problem? And I want to see the experts, like those of you were talking to now, claim a part of that market, claim your voice and go out there and help those people. Because you can, and you can right now. And they’re looking for what you said, real people, real connections, you know, real support.

[00:30:36] And there’s just some really cool ways that you can do that online learning.

[00:30:40] Linzy: Absolutely. And I mean, as you say that, it’s interesting. It brings up this thought that I haven’t entirely had before, but I do think with mental health therapists, especially, and also other health practitioners that listen to this podcast who tend to be more of the like sensitive emotionally attuned.

[00:30:54] We walk into a room. It’s full of information. You know, like we’re always picking up on everything. I think for those folks, it can be hard to think that what they do can be packaged up. And also I think sometimes, it’s like we want to be part of it, right? Like I noticed this with my own course, right?

[00:31:10] With Money Skills for Therapists, I will have students who join and they show up to every call, and I know them, and I get to be part of the journey, and I get to cheer them on, and I get to see the lows and the highs and They’re taking the course, but I also feel like I’m like, kind of like cheerleading them on, like I’m part of the journey.

[00:31:22] And then I’ll have other students who take the course, and they all get a one on one with me, and they’ll show up to the one on one. I’ve never met them before. And they’re just like, this course has changed my life. Thank you so much. And they’ll just list off all these results that they got.

[00:31:34] And it’s through my content, you know, like that guided them, but they didn’t need all that other stuff. And they didn’t need me. And the part of me, and I think a lot of folks listening, they’ll have this part too, that wants to be in it, wants to be the fixer, wants to be like integrally involved…

[00:31:51] That part is sometimes Oh, okay. Oh, but then I have to remember no, they got the result, but I didn’t need to put in all that one on one energy. Right. And so that’s also something that I’ve noticed. And I felt it in myself. I’ve had to sometimes almost grieve. Yeah, I’m not going to be part of all my students’ journey, intimately, but they still got exactly what they came for.

[00:32:10] And I think that might be a bit revelatory for folks who are listening, who’ve only ever done one on one.

[00:32:14] Stephanie: Yeah, it’s such a beautiful share, and it makes me think of my own stories. And for those of you listening, like that’s sort of why I say, once you get on the other side of running programs, it’s completely different. self published a book.

[00:32:25] There was no book in the world on the low FODMAP diet and IBS, which is what I did like way back in the day. So I published the first one on FODMAPs and IBS specifically. Anyways, I published this book. Because I wanted to help people. I made 1 per book. It was not a moneymaker. Okay. We’ll talk about that another day, but I wanted more people to hear what I was helping them with because I was early in a time when no one… So many people were struggling with IBS, and no one was teaching anything.

[00:32:54] There wasn’t what we have today, and so I was desperate to help more people. And from doing that book, and I also ran a really low price point membership that was about 20 a month, and we put over 300 people into that membership. So a very low price point. People go through the courses. I did have Q and A’s and stuff like that But it was in those smaller price point self study style of products that, like you said, Linzy, I had… I remember having a man whose wife emailed me and was like, you know, read your book, his IBS is gone or changed or whatever. And I was like, cool. It cost you 40 bucks, but you put effort in and you print the book and I was like, wow those kinds of I mean, it’s just you said revolutionary. It’s just, it’s incredibly powerful that you have this thing that you see every day in your practice.

[00:33:45] You’re changing lives one to one there. imagine the number of people that you could share that with who would never come into your office. They would never come to one one to one appointment. But they would buy your book, or they would buy your $20 membership, or they would buy your $200 course. And three weeks later… For me, I help people with diarrhea and constipation and gas and bloating, which is really ruining their lives.

[00:34:11] Okay. They couldn’t go out, they couldn’t go to the gym, they couldn’t travel. It felt like extremely life changing, satisfying work. So when someone buys a course for 500 and three weeks later, they’re like, I haven’t pooped my pants all day, or whatever. They’re like, cool. Oh my, I’m not bloated and I can wear normal pants, not stretchy pants.

[00:34:28] And I didn’t ever talk to them, but I took the information and the knowledge out of my brain and my heart and my soul. And I made some videos, and a workbook, and put it on the internet. That just lights my world up. And now I’m not a dietician anymore. But now our work, we continue to do the same sort of thing with our work.

[00:34:48] And I feel like you, Linzy, like I love people, and I want everyone on my Q and A calls. They all don’t come on my Q and A calls, but we sell courses where you can just take our training and not get any help. And we also help and do consulting as well. But to see a course that I have fine tuned since 2015, and someone to buy it for 900 or 1, 000, or however much they buy a course for.

[00:35:11] And then, we get a message from someone that says, I have scaled back my practice by one to two days a week, meaning they cut out one to two days a week of client care. And now they work, you know, two to three days a week and they have more time for their kids and their family. My mind is blown every single time.

[00:35:29] And that’s really hard to conceptualize or feel tangible when you’re just listening to this podcast, and you’re like, sounds cool.Like how do I do it? But that’s the truth from two people who care about human beings, who come from the healthcare world… we’re not these like business gurus who make trillions, you know, but it’s so fun to help people and it is a little bit different in a different way, but oh, it’s just so exciting anytime you get someone results and imagine you could do that without having to trade all your time, you know, and it’s totally possible and so exciting and fun.

[00:36:06] Linzy: Mhm. It is. It is. And I’m curious, Steph, as you’re working… because you work with a range of health practitioners, as I do, although I attract more mental health folks, since that’s my background, and you started on the dietetics side of things, I’m curious, with mental health therapist specifically and also this like type of… there’s a health practitioners who I work with who are like, they’re like the more sensitive, holistic OTs, right?

[00:36:28] Or like the SLPs who aren’t quite as orderly and see things in more of a systems perspective… For this kind of mental health therapist type of person. What do you see is challenging for them around what we’re talking about? what specifically do you see come up for them that make this a little bit harder?

[00:36:47] Stephanie: I just saw this quote, I think yesterday, which you have probably seen a thousand times. Have you ever read that sentence? It’s: entrepreneurship is like the deepest self development work ever.

[00:36:58] Linzy: I haven’t seen that.

[00:37:00] Stephanie: Really? Are you serious? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So like owning a business, becoming an entrepreneur, is the deepest self development work because you look

[00:37:09] your fears in the face. And so I think just entrepreneurship is, it brings up all kinds of things for mental health professionals themselves. And of course this overlaps with all kinds of beautiful people, but I see a couple of struggles. One of them is like

[00:37:29] some of their like shit comes up, you know from the dark depths of what you believe about yourself What you think about yourself? I don’t want to say imposter syndrome, but self doubt, you know. Who am I to have a course? Who am I to make money without talking to someone? You know I don’t experience what they go through but I’ve seen a handful of clients sort of go through a journey that they struggle to actually do the thing, even though they have a six month wait list.

[00:37:59] They are flipping brilliant. I can sit down with them in two hours and map out their entire course and cry. I cry sometimes when I map out courses with people, so I do a service where I sit down and I map courses out with people. It takes me about two to three hours. I swear to God every time I do it with a therapist, I cry because I’m like, Oh my God, your work is effing life changing.

[00:38:24] Oh my gosh. Like I can’t even handle… I’m sensitive. Like I can’t even handle it. and so as someone who’s the voice of your voice, who wants your voice to be louder, who wants to help you to do that, it is a struggle for me to see those courses, to cry in them. And then it can be a challenge to get them out.

[00:38:43] And what I experienced is that it’s your own shit that comes up and it’s sort of like a self doubt, who am I kind of thing. That’s the thing. And I want to say that although maybe our therapists experience that a little differently, I’m sure most humans, if not all of us go through that journey of Oh my gosh, you know, and it’s the decision to be a voice for your community.

[00:39:07] It’s a decision to help more people that you move past that, or you don’t. And people do not. And so that’s one of the things. Get a therapist. Probably a great idea.

[00:39:18] Linzy: A good idea. Yeah.

[00:39:20] Stephanie: Yeah. We should partner with some therapists to support our clients. But you know, that kind of stuff comes up and you kind of look, have to look in the mirror at yourself, which is… Some people push through it, and some people don’t.

[00:39:34] So I think that’s really the challenging part. It’s this entrepreneurship thing of having a louder voice, being online. Making videos of your face. And it’s just… I keep calling it like it’s raising your voice. It’s taking your brilliant expertise… You’re literally… You could tell me you’re already changing lives, and you could map out your program in two and a half hours with me. I know you could. But it’s taking that, and then putting that belief behind it, that commitment behind it, that I’m going to do it behind it. Like that’s the part that I think a lot of people struggle with. I think my mental health professionals struggle with it.

[00:40:10] And those that launch might take a little longer than they thought. Instead of launching in three months, it might take them a little longer. And if you can be patient with yourself, and work through that and still launch, you can still do it.

[00:40:24] Linzy: Like it makes me think about who tends to become a therapist, you know, and usually we’ve had some sort of adverse experiences, you know, and I think also that helper type, too, when we’re so used to being like, well, I just help others. I sit in a room and I give myself away all day until I’m a husk.

[00:40:39] And then I go home and then I know it’s been a good day because I’ve emptied out my human life. Like I’m obviously being extremely hyperbolic, but when we’re so used to being self sacrificing, then yeah, that idea of switching it around and being like, I am going to share my gifts and have an impact, but not at great cost to myself.

[00:40:55] That’s a real mindset shift for folks to believe that we deserve that. 

[00:40:59] Linzy: We have to believe that it’s possible, that change can happen without self sacrifice and pain, right? And we have to own our gifts. We’re actually really good at this thing. It’s not just something that, you know… I was talking to a colleague of mine the other day, who’s quite self-effacing, in a funny way.

[00:41:15] But she was saying to me, she was sitting with a client and the client had this breakthrough and was like, wow, you’re really good. She’s like, no, no, it’s not me. It’s you. It’s all you. And it’s like, that’s not true. If that person was sitting in a room by themself, this would not be happening, which is why they’re sitting with you.

[00:41:28] Right. But I think we’re so good at focusing on other people’s gifts and that we can be self-effacing. We can forget, we’re actually really good at this thing. And also, as we’ve been talking about, this thing can actually be bottled up, and folks can get tons of value from it without you having to have an individual,

[00:41:45] you know, specific interaction with somebody. Custom conversation six hours a day every single day. There are ways to get that across without one on one.

[00:41:55] Stephanie: And there may be an attachment… I’m not a therapist, but there may be an attachment to the fact that you have a magical power where you sit down with someone and in 50 minutes, you create the advice, the recommendation, the guidance, the exercise, the thing like it’s all you, it is you. But there may be an attachment to the control of that and the power of that moment.

[00:42:21] And when you take out your brilliance and you put it into a book, a course, a program, a written document, you are now separating that power out from the power of the information. There may be something there that is holding people back. Because just listening to the way that you described that, put me in a room, I’m good.

[00:42:41] I can do that. That’s my power. This may be shifting something there for you, and it’s challenging, But I would say it’s more powerful because over time you do repeat yourself. You do have a toolbox of like 20 things that you say to people, and when you can sort of pull that out and map that out, it actually frees you from

[00:43:05] needing it to be on you. When I serve people with IBS, they… I just described diarrhea, constipation five times a day, losing friends, not being able to leave their house. Like it’s impacting their lives, right? A lot of them have therapists. So yeah, many of you know this client. And so, one of the things I found in the community in running a program, or running a membership, is that they talk to each other.

[00:43:27] They asked each other for help. They talked about stretchy pants together, and that was the first time that it removed the burden from my shoulders because I was the only one that believed them, that they trusted, that they could talk to, and in creating programs, I found that freeing because I found the burden really heavy.

[00:43:48] You know, Linzy, I only saw, I’d say eight to 10 clients a week. I couldn’t do more than 10. That was my energetic, emotional maximum. Not therapy, digestive health. But that was my, my… And I’m an extrovert, but that was my capacity. And so, I mean, I felt like I had to do, take my expertise and make it bigger, you know, maybe that’s what pushed me.

[00:44:12] But, you know, this sort of idea of, it’s all on your shoulders. When you take it off your shoulders, and you put it in a program, video content, community, whatever, those kinds of pieces, all of a sudden you are not a hundred percent responsible for the healing of that person. Whoo! It can screw with you, but it’s magical.

[00:44:37] And so I think it’s a big barrier there to work through.

[00:44:39] Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah. Cause what I’m thinking about when you said like the taking off your shoulders, it’s like you’re taking off like the burden responsibility, but you’re also letting go of some of that control. Right. And this is a conversation I had a coaching episode for the podcast that I recorded last week with one of my students who’s in this process of, she has an expanded offering, this very cool planner for folks who are neurodivergent.

[00:44:59] And we were talking about that, like the word attuned, you know, when we’re in therapy, like it’s attunement, but it’s also control, right? Like you’re also really able to modulate that interaction and go faster, go slower, change gears, check in. There’s a lot of control there, right? And when we do bottle something up, we do lose some of that control

[00:45:16] in exchange for more reach, right? And like folks being able to do it in their own time, in their own way. And there’s, I think, a very positive trade off there, but we are letting go of that piece of it’s me, I’m driving. It’s you’re not driving anymore when you package up that goodness and you let other folks work through it at their pace, in their way, accessing your support as they want to, which they might access a lot of your support in a hybrid program or they might not.

[00:45:41] Right. And that’s… it’s no longer like yours to solve.

[00:45:45] Stephanie: Oh, it’s so powerful. I’m personally energetically vibrating right now. So if you’re listening to this podcast at a different time than we’re recording, and you are energetically vibrating because we’ve cracked some stuff open, and that energy in your body is saying I want to let go of that control.

[00:46:01] I see this in me. It might not be easy or it might… I mean, honestly, for some people it is easy. They just kind of do it, and get it out there, rip off the bandaid. then this is for you. If you’re someone who’s not, that’s okay. But I know that there are people listening to this that are probably vibrating like I am where you’re like, Oh my gosh.

[00:46:18] Yes, I’m ready to let go of some of that control. I’m ready to take some of it off my shoulders. I want to see less people. That’s what I went through early on when I launched programs. I was like, I can only hold space for so many people, you know, and I know I can help more people. That was really my motivation in the beginning, you know?

[00:46:36] Linzy: So Steph, for those folks who are listening, where can they find you? Where can they follow you? How can they get more from you to step more into this direction?

[00:46:45] Stephanie: Yeah. Okay. So I’ll give you a couple of resources. All right. So one, I have a podcast, too. So if you’re a podcast listener and you want to listen to me a little bit more and see if I’m your vibe, then you can look up my podcast and all the podcast places. It’s called The Leveraged Practice podcast.

[00:46:58] Okay. So that’s number one, number two, you can find me on the Instagram, which is the leveraged practice again, at the leverage practice. And if you find me on Instagram, and send us a message with the word models will send you our models training, which is what I started to talk about today, which is the different models of online programs.

[00:47:12] That’s kind of like a great start. It’s just a short little video on that. We also have free classes and courses and workshops and all kinds of stuff like that. And no matter when you’re listening to this, If you go to leverageyourpractice.com, that URL will take you to our next free course, whether it’s live or recorded or whatever it is, but it’ll give you a little more in depth of okay, let me take these ideas in my brain and start to, you know, map out my program.

[00:47:40] So those would be a couple of great places for you to, again, gently learn more, you know, go to my podcast, just listen in for a bit, or take a step. You know, do one of those two trainings that I told you about. And we’d be happy to just sort of guide you towards this idea, and I can tell you that a lot of people are successful.

[00:47:59] Okay. We talked about a lot of the blocks and whatnot. One of my therapists just launched her first program. She put five people in the first one. I just followed up with her. She launched the second time. She’s got two in so far working on filling up that program. Like It’s working every day with the people that we work with, and we are so happy to help, you know, with our free resources, our paid programs.

[00:48:21] We do a lot of technical work as well to help take that off your plate, but, yeah, just start to explore and think about it a little bit more if it feels good to you.

[00:48:28] Linzy: Awesome. Thank you so much, Steph, for coming back on the podcast.

[00:48:32] Stephanie: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for being here and listening in.

[00:48:51] Linzy: This piece at the end of my conversation with Steph about control and attunement. Very excited about this territory and these ideas, because I do think that for so many health practitioners and therapists, this is how we’re used to relating to our work. And if you can start to think about your own relationship to your work, what needs of your own are being met by the way that you work, or how is your identity affecting the way that you’re doing this work, then we can start to ask ourselves questions about how we want to change that.

[00:49:22] If we want to change that, right? There are so many ways to help folks in the world, and we’re used to doing it a certain way. And that might be the way for you. That might be the only way that you ever want to help the folks that you help. But if you are curious about building something different, having a different impact, having a bigger impact.

[00:49:39] As Steph says too, like bottling things up, that’s my language, not hers, but you know, creating a book or like a $200 course, that self-study course that’s going to change somebody’s life without you having to actively do that work with them. But they’re still going to get all the knowledge and goodness that you’ve gained.

[00:49:54] If you are curious about that, I definitely recommend checking out Steph, check out her content, And start to think about, yeah. What is the relationship to the work that you have now? What are you getting from it? Where are you maybe boxing yourself in or limiting yourself? Where you may be costing yourself more energy than you need to?

[00:50:10] And how can you continue to support the folks that you love to serve in a way that is sustainable for you and maybe even make a bigger impact than you are making now. There’s just so many ways to be helpful to folks in the world. So, so appreciate my conversation with Steph today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at money, nuts and bolts.

[00:50:31] And I would sincerely appreciate it if you would tell folks about the podcast, tell your colleagues, tell your officemate next door, tell your friend that you did your master’s with, tell them about the podcast. We’re having conversations here that I don’t really think are happening in a lot of other spaces.

[00:50:47] And the more folks that hear about the podcast, the more that we can keep it going and start to create more and more change around the way that therapists talk and think about money. I did an event recently called, Overcoming Money Shame. It was a workshop series. And at the end, one of the participants sent me a note thanking me for being, how did she put it?

[00:51:05] At the forefront of the Therapist Financial Competency Movement. And I am all for it. If I’m ever going to lead a movement, it is going to be about financial competency. That’s so responsible and boring, but also amazing. So yes, if you share with other folks, then more and more of us can be part of these conversations and can be building these skills.

[00:51:26] Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today.