Maegan [00:00:03] Slow is sustainable. And I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances, and the way that you are modeling, both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach, that you can’t have one without the other. You can’t have skills without the stories. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Welcome to the season finale episode for the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And for our season finale, we decided something a little bit different, which is that my business bestie, Maegan Megginson is here. Hi, Maegan. Welcome. 

 

Maegan [00:01:18] Hi, Linzy. I’m so excited. 

 

Linzy [00:01:20] Me too. So just to, you know, mix it up a little bit, do something a little different for this episode, Maegan’s going to interview me about Money Skills for Therapists and, like, how my thinking about money has evolved over time. So, Maegan, you and I now have known each other- I wanna round up because that’s like, you know, I want to make it big. 2017 is when we met. So we’re coming up on six years now. 

 

Maegan [00:01:45] Happy anniversary.  

 

Linzy [00:01:46] Happy anniversary almost – in November – of being friends of like, watching each other’s businesses develop and grow. And like, I mean, we for a little while there, you and I, just us, we masterminded every week. Is that right? 

 

Maegan [00:01:59] Right. 

 

Linzy [00:01:59] Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:02:00] We had a lot to talk about. 

 

Linzy [00:02:01] We had a lot to talk about. So we spent a lot of time together watching each other’s businesses grow and evolve. And so it felt like really natural fit to have you come on to put me in the interviewee seat, which I’m about to occupy, and have you dig into my brain a little bit. 

 

Maegan [00:02:18] Linzy, I’m so honored to be here. It was just such a delight to receive this text from Linzy saying, Hey, do you want to interview me on my podcast? And I was like, Yeah, that’s an easy yes. So I’m so honored to be here and I’m very excited to interview you and just spotlight all of the amazing things about you and let people see- your audience see you, in maybe a way that they haven’t seen you, but that I get to see you all the time. So I feel so lucky that I get to share you with your people for a minute. 

 

Linzy [00:02:51] No pressure. Here we go. 

 

Maegan [00:02:53] Are you ready? 

 

Linzy [00:02:53] I’m ready. 

 

Maegan [00:02:54] Well, Linzy, welcome to my podcast. 

 

Linzy [00:02:57] Thank you so much for having me. 

 

Maegan [00:02:58] Oh, I’m so glad that you’re here. And I have so many questions to ask you today. I mean, first of all, this is- we’re wrapping up season what of the podcast. 

 

Linzy [00:03:07] That’s an excellent question. Maegan. I’m going to say we are wrapping up season six. 

 

Maegan [00:03:11] Oh, my gosh. 

 

Linzy [00:03:12] Well, yes, we do 12-episode seasons, right? So, yeah, I think we’re coming into I think this will be episode 72.  

 

Maegan [00:03:20] Oh, my God, 72 episodes. Okay, you know what? We don’t. We don’t need to check. 

 

Linzy [00:03:24] We don’t need to check. I just got my calculator. 

 

Maegan [00:03:26] Nobody’s going to fact check us on this. So this was episode 789 of Money Skills For Therapists. No, congratulations on six successful seasons. 

 

Linzy [00:03:35] Thank you. 

 

Maegan [00:03:37] That is such a tremendous accomplishment and it’s been such an honor for me to be behind the scenes since 2017 when we went to this coaching mastermind program together and we both started building our next level businesses at the same time. So I’ve had a backstage pass to watch the evolution of Money Skills for Therapists, and I know that Money Skills is coming up on its fourth birthday, which is pretty amazing in the online space. Not many things, courses, programs are around for four years. So congratulations.  

 

Linzy [00:04:12] Thank you. Thank you. And that’s four years with like a break. It’s like I made a course, ran it twice, and then, like, had a baby, did that for a year, and then now- yeah, like, since 2020. Since since COVID is when I launched, like, the latest version of the course. We’ve been running it constantly, nonstop. 

 

Maegan [00:04:28] Yeah. And I just. Just to brag on you. Like the fact that you came back from a maternity leave and kept investing time and energy and the same program that you created before you left, it still had legs when you got back and you know you were out for a year. Like you were- like a solid year. You were off the grid of the Internet. 

 

Linzy [00:04:47] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:04:48] And you came back and Money Skills was still so solid and people were hungry for it. They missed it. I mean, that really speaks to the strength of the program that you’ve created. 

 

Linzy [00:04:59] Thank you. You’re welcome. 

 

Maegan [00:05:01] And I guess what I’m wondering right now is, you know, what have you noticed evolving or changing around money, How you think about money, how you talk about money, in the four years that you’ve been teaching Money Skills? 

 

Linzy [00:05:17] Yeah. What I think about – the kind of image that comes to mind for me – is there’s like this like deepening and sinking in about money that I have done in the course of teaching the course, like when I first made Money Skills for Therapists. So this would have been in 2018 January was the first cohort. Right. So like you and I met and then 2018 is when I ran the very first cohort. There was actually nothing in the course specifically about mindset. So it’s like we would do it on calls, right? Like organically. And like when I first ran the course, it was six weeks. It was really like drinking out of a firehose. 

 

Maegan [00:05:51] Right? 

 

Linzy [00:05:52] So now all in, you know, folks like, you know, would be like really fully just kind of like soaking it in for six weeks. And so in those calls, naturally of course, like mindset stuff would come up or like emotions would come up and like, you know, folks would cry and like, all those pieces would happen. But like, I actually hadn’t built anything into the course curriculum specifically about, like your relationship with money, which now that I look back, I’m like, right. There was like such a- it’s not an oversight, but it was just like something that maybe it’s because I was a therapist, I was just like, obviously we’re going to dig into this in real life. But given it was such a core piece of the curriculum that wasn’t there when I started and wasn’t baked in like I was. So when I started, I was so about just like spreadsheets and like empowering therapists and this side, like giving them tools. But I feel like the mindset stuff and the relationship pieces and even the way I talk about that has deepened and changed a lot over the four years. I’ve developed language that I just did not have back when I started the course. 

 

Maegan [00:06:50] I mean, what I’m hearing is that in the first iteration of Money Skills, emotions and mindset were secondary to skills and curriculum. 

 

Linzy [00:06:59] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:06:59] And what you discovered pretty quickly in working with people through the program was like, wait a minute, like the ratio is off here. Like we need to really. 

 

Linzy [00:07:08] Exactly. 

 

Maegan [00:07:09] Prioritize emotions and mindset because, you know, I think what you and I know and talk about to each other a lot is you can’t actually do really deep work around money without a willingness to look at the relational aspect of currency. 

 

Linzy [00:07:24] Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s like the ratio was off. But even I think the order of operations, right? So like what I now understand and believe very firmly about money is that relationships actually has to come first, right? What I have learned over the course of teaching Money Skills over the last four years is it’s that relationship piece to money, right? It’s the stories that we have. It’s the trauma that we carry in our body is related to money. And like the previous negative experiences, those pieces actually make us unable to learn. Right? And so I think at the beginning I didn’t understand like, no, we really have to like, sit here and like really name this and bake this into every call and everywhere we talk about it. But also baked into the curriculum like this is first. First is understanding like, what are you carrying, what are the stories, what is the trauma, like what do you need to take to therapy and what are things that you can work out here in real time? Then it starts to create that opening, like that little bit of calming in our brains that allows us to start to learn. 

 

Maegan [00:08:23] It feels like a lot of what you’re saying right now comes directly from your experience as a trauma therapist. 

 

Linzy [00:08:29] Yes, that’s true. Which actually makes it a little bit laughable that I didn’t make it in at the beginning. I know. Like, that makes sense. 

 

Maegan [00:08:36] Well, you know, and I think this is something that we have both reflected on in the last year of how like when we originally shifted out of private practice mode and into a business kind of beyond our therapy practices, there was a part of us that had to go all the way to the other side of the spectrum. I was like, okay, this is not therapy anymore. This is something else. I am teaching something now. But as time goes on, I think we’re both kind of finding our way back to our roots. And this is that’s what this is for me. It’s like, Oh, like you needed that trauma foundation all along to really make this a very complete ecosystem. 

 

Linzy [00:09:15] Yeah. And I think too, like when I first started, like, I wanted it to just not be trauma therapy. It’s like, I want to do not trauma therapy. 

 

Maegan [00:09:22] I’m trying to get away from that. 

 

Linzy [00:09:24] Yeah, like my therapist at the time. Like therapist who did some supervisory stuff with me too. It’s like I remember talking with her about my idea, like when I came up with the idea for Money Skills for Therapists. I don’t think people necessarily knew how to respond, right? Like, I didn’t necessarily get the warmest responses from everybody. And I remember my therapist being like, Well, it’s just going to be trauma. Like you’re just going to end up talking to people about trauma. Like it felt very like squishing my idea down. I mean, it reminds me of the guy that I dated before the man I eventually married who was like, Why would you be a therapist in private practice? There’s so many of those. Like, the world doesn’t need those. It’s like, Well, he was extremely wrong. And like, my therapist was wrong too, in terms of like, it’s not just trauma. Like, I’m not just doing trauma therapy with people. Like there are concrete skills and there’s language and there’s education that we’re missing. But yeah, I think I was probably trying to get away from the trauma pieces and being like, this is going to be fine. And then ultimately, of course, it’s a deep, important part of the work to let therapists actually learn money. 

 

Maegan [00:10:20] When we’re tired of therapy. Because we’re therapists. I feel like we want to escape it and we’re really quick to discount the incredible magic that we wield as therapists. Our understanding of trauma, of the nervous system, of internalized beliefs, that this is the core of all work that you will ever do on anything in your entire life. Like you cannot separate running your business or your finances or raising your kids. You can’t separate this stuff from what’s happening at the very center of you. And I’m hearing that that is the biggest evolution that you have made inside of Money Skills is really positioning the emotional, the mindset, the understanding of the trauma story, front and center on the Money Skills journey. And I’m just curious, as you’ve made that transition, what kind of results are people getting, different from the results they were getting before that was part of the process? 

 

Linzy [00:11:18] Mm hmm. Like, what I see now is I see folks getting similar results. But what’s different is they get to do that work more inside the course in community, even making the course- the course is now a six-month course in terms of the support that they get. Folks can work through the modules at their own pace. Right. Which also I think is more flexible to the way that people learn. And some people do jump in and like do three modules in like almost never once a week, truthfully. So never as fast as I used to teach it. But some folks do jump in and like move really fast. But then when they hit a wall, the wall is almost inevitably that emotional mindset. The stories come up, it gets hard. The part that thinks that you know, that tells them that they’re stupid pops up and starts getting really loud and they disengage. But then there’s like the time to come back, right? So what I see is the way that we teach it now with really like holding emotional space. And my coach, who works for me, used to be Heather and now Diane, both amazing. Their calls have been just mindset calls like they don’t do the more practical stuff that we do in some of the other calls, like it’s just mindset. And so what I see now is like, folks get to do a lot more of that work actually inside our course and inside our community rather than I think what was happening before with my earlier students is they would get a lot of like the learning from me and we would do a little bit of that processing, but then they would take it to therapy, they would take it to their business buddies. Like they would keep working on it after the course. And so what’s also nice too, with the course being longer now, is I get to see and be with folks through that work because it does take time. Whereas like some of my earlier students, some of my students who had incredible results and like are now, you know, my testimonials. I remember one of my students like our our one on one call, which we had at the end of her six weeks. She was so anxious and overwhelmed and her computer wasn’t working and she was like nearly in tears trying to get it working so she could get the most of our call. And like, you know, I came off that call being like, Oh, I hope that she’s able to, like, solidify these things. And she did, but she had to do it later outside of the container of the course. Whereas now folks are able to do that, like settling in and that shifting and that healing and that basically like rewriting of identity inside of the course instead. 

 

Maegan [00:13:23] Wow. Rewriting your identity. 

 

Linzy [00:13:26] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:13:26] That’s pretty huge. I would say that’s a pretty huge shift in what you are offering in Money Skills than when you started. So I’m just going to share these two reflections. It isn’t just the prioritizing of the emotional experience and the trauma stories and the narratives. It’s also it’s doing that in a container that allows for a slower, more sustainable pacing. And I think this is something you and I talk a lot about in the online space in general. Is that so so much of what we’re sold is flash in the pan, really fast. You know, come in, six weeks and you’re going to have your whole life is going to be completely different. And that’s not true. Like that almost literally never happens. Yeah, slow is sustainable and I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances and the way that you are modeling both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach that you can’t have one without the other, you can’t have skills without the stories. Those two things really go together. So thank you for those reflections. I have another question. 

 

Linzy [00:14:38] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:14:39] Are you ready? 

 

Linzy [00:14:40] I’m ready. 

 

Maegan [00:14:41] I want to know. You and I talk a lot about money in our friendship. Like money as a concept, money- I mean, our conversations definitely, like, tilt philosophical most of the time. So I want to know when it comes to money, like what is one of the most common misnomers or myths or misunderstandings that clients bring into Money Skills? 

 

Linzy [00:15:01] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, to go with that identity piece, I think probably one of the most common misunderstandings about money that I see folks come in with is, like, this idea of, like, I’m not a money person, right? That there’s, like, money people and those people are just, like, good at money. And they’ve always been good at money and they’re good at math. And that therapists are not that. Right. We are something else. And I will say it is absolutely true that there is like natural ability that pops up in different areas, right? Like my brother is like brilliant with mechanics. He can look inside like and look at a van engine and like, think about how it works and figure out how to fix it. By looking at it. I look at a van engine and I’m like, That’s a lot of stuff and we’re gonna close the hood. The fact that I even just accessed the word hood, I’m pretty proud of. I have to say. 

 

Maegan [00:15:51] So some of us are naturally. 

 

Linzy [00:15:53] There’s like that natural. But I think that it’s the idea that that it can’t be learned right, that it’s. 

 

Maegan [00:15:58] Like you either have it or you don’t. 

 

Linzy [00:15:59] There’s people who do this and I can’t do this. Right. And what I reflect to folks and I was just having a conversation on a call last week with a student about this, talking about her experience of like getting kind of like overwhelmed and having trouble getting started. And I think whenever there’s, like, it’s hard to sit down and work on something or it’s hard to keep up momentum. Like, it’s a sign that there’s there’s friction there and it’s like being curious about what it is. And like when we dug in to it together, it’s like she has this story that she’s like, stupid, right? She’s stupid. And this is a story I hear a lot. I hear the stupid story a lot. And applying like the idea that therapists are stupid is like so far from reality. You know. 

 

Maegan [00:16:36] We’re literally the smartest people on the whole planet. 

 

Linzy [00:16:38] Yeah. Not. Not to be biased. 

 

Maegan [00:16:39] Literally. 

 

Linzy [00:16:41] We’re brilliant. In the coaching that I did with her on our group call was like, I just like, slowed her down and reflected on like, So there’s this part of you. It feels like you’re stupid. And usually it’s a very young part, right? Usually those are things that like, you know, I used to call my brother stupid when we were kids. I’m sure he’s got a part that I created, you know, because of that, like name calling, because he struggled in school. And we end up with these parts when we’re really little. But like as we zoomed out and like, she zoomed out more on her life experience, she has three master’s degrees, like the amount of like learning and pushing through and bending your brain and retaining new information that you have to do for three master’s degrees is phenomenal, right? And so money, it’s like it might not be your natural tuning, but like most of it is arithmetic. Truly. It’s like addition, subtraction, like maybe a little multiplication to, like, make it interesting. And therapists absolutely have the intellectual capacity to learn it. And we also have the capacity to set up good systems and make it work for us. But it’s it’s getting over that idea that you are this or you aren’t this. Like you can grow into this. It’s that growth edge, right? Like growth mindset. And I think so many therapists – and you and I, I know, have this kind of history – as people like tend to be perfectionists, tend to be people who want to be good at things right away. You know, like your- what was the award? You won the best at everything award? 

 

Maegan [00:17:56] Yes, it’s true. 

 

Linzy [00:17:57] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Maegan won that in high school. 

 

Maegan [00:18:00] Eighth grade. 

 

Linzy [00:18:00] Eighth grade. Eighth grade. Yeah. I was also the fifth grader of the year. Just to add my award to the pile. 

 

Maegan [00:18:06] These are the quote. I’m using air quotes. These are like the awards and accolades that just like, really mess us up deeply inside. 

 

Linzy [00:18:15] The only thing that I enjoyed about getting the grade five of the year award is that I beat my crush who was also a contender and I beat him and beating boys at things is something I enjoyed deeply, still to this day. Beating men at board games is one of my greatest joys. But yeah, so that story, like not being a money person or that money is not important to you. Like money’s not- you’re not a money person in the sense of like, it’s just like not something that is important. Like those are all things that really have to be, like, troubled because I just think they’re they’re just not true and they really limit us. Those kinds of stories limit us deeply in our ability to make our lives work. Truthfully. 

 

Maegan [00:18:51] I really appreciate how you’re normalizing that. We all have parts that pipe up when it comes to money in math. And you know, we all have them. No one, even people who are good at math, might have mindset struggles with money when it comes to scarcity. Right. Do I have enough? You know, so I think I have yet to meet a single human on this planet who has, you know, a perfectly clean slate when it comes to managing money and thinking about money. And I just want to take this and expand it a little bit because I feel like another thread here that you’re weaving into this conversation is the way people think about money conceptually, right? There’s all the baggage that we bring in and all the stories we tell ourselves, you know, like I’m not a math person and you’re saying so clearly right now, stop it. Like, money skills are learnable for everyone. So we’re just kind of like, you know, we’re like, that conversation is done. Yes, you can learn this is as possible for you. Yeah, but it doesn’t solve yet philosophically how people understand money and how people think about money as people and as business owners. What do you have to say about that? 

 

Linzy [00:20:03] Yeah, So, you know, this is also something that I think I’ve thought of over time and obviously had lots of conversations with folks about money. And I had this kind of revelation, you know, I’m a verbal processor, so sometimes I talk myself into an answer like I, I don’t know what’s going to come out of my mouth. And then I’m like, Oh, that sounds good. Yeah. I really summed up a lot of what’s been swirling around in my brain. So I was being interviewed recently by Dr. Liz Lasky for a summit that she’s doing, and I really enjoyed my conversation with her a lot. And she brought up this this idea. She was like, you know, a lot of my my students say that, like, money is just not a value for them, right? It’s just not important to them. It’s not something that they value. And she was like, you know, what do you say to like this idea of like money’s just not something that’s not a value for everybody. And like, I had this really strong response to it and I was like, like money is not a value. Like if we looked at the list of values, like if you put like Brené Brown’s list of values, money is not on there and it should not be on there because money is not an end unto itself. And that’s what I really like conceptually started to really deepen into. You know, as we’re talking all these mindset pieces, like money is a tool. Right. Like my dad loves woodworking, so he collects saws, but saws are not what’s important to him. Saws are not a value. He doesn’t- he isn’t like, what’s important in my life is saws. What’s important in his life is creativity, using his hands, giving gifts to people that he made from his heart, connection and family, like that’s what it’s about, right? and I think with money, we confuse the vehicle or the tool. We think that the vehicle and the tool is the end unto itself. And it’s not at all. Like money has no meaning in and of itself. I think it’s completely how we relate to it. You know, these pieces hanging about earlier. It’s what you do with it, and it’s how you use it to enact your actual values that gives it meaning and purpose and brings it to life. 

 

Maegan [00:21:58] Yeah, Because, you know, like, money isn’t real. I remind myself of this, like, once a week. Like, we literally really made it up. Like, we made it up. And we all mutually agree that it’s a thing that we can barter with. Yeah. What you’re saying is really, really powerful. Money isn’t a value. Money is a tool that can support you in getting and creating the things that you actually do value in your life. But before we talk more about that, I want to know when people say things like, well, money’s not important to me. Money’s not a value for me. What do you think they’re actually saying? 

 

Linzy [00:22:32] They’re saying they’re afraid of money. They’re saying that money is bad. They’re afraid of power. They’re afraid of being one of the bad people who has power and therefore is abusing and exploiting other people. They’re saying that they don’t feel competent or they don’t trust themselves to have it. So they’re just told themselves that they don’t want it. I think there’s a kind of a disowning there of that that power. 

 

Maegan [00:22:55] I agree. And I would say that I think some people who say money’s not important to me, money’s not a value, are also people who are in the process of like deprogramming themselves from capitalism, and they’re just not on the other side of it yet, you know, because I think when you’re at the beginning of your journey of understanding your relationship with capitalism and patriarchy and all the things, it’s really easy to be like, smash the patriarchy, down with money. You know, we go into this like, rage angry place, which actually is not helpful. Yeah. So I think sometimes when people are like, money doesn’t- it’s not important to me. It’s not a value that I have. It’s really, to me, this little beautiful little flag that says like, Oh, great, now they’re doing the real work. It’s like really starting to figure out then like, Whoa, what is it? You know, and how do I fit this into my life in a way that is aligned with my values? Yeah. So on that note, I would love to know. What advice do you have for people who are in the place where they really are ready to examine their values and connect with the things that really matter to them? 

 

Linzy [00:23:56] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think about, you know, when you’re talking about folks in that place where they are pushing against something, they’re questioning their relationship with capitalism and other systems. It makes me think about it’s easy to put yourself in opposition like this is what I’m against. But ultimately, what makes the world better is like, What are you for? Yeah, right. And your values are about what are you for, right? What feeds you? What is what makes your life worthwhile? What do you want your legacy to be? And the legacy is not money. I really- like the more that I have, like, sat with this and the more that I’ve watched the accumulation of wealth, I have seen that just passing a bucket load of money onto your kids doesn’t actually necessarily guarantee anything about their happiness or success or even their love for you. Right. Like, I think we get so confused sometimes with like, well, family is a value, so I’m going to, like, save up tons and tons of money, I mean, to make lots of money so my kids have money. And again, we’re confusing the vehicle with the actual value, right? The destination. Right. And so it’s if you’re coming to that place of starting to think about what are you for? Like something that I’ve done with my students in Money Boss, when I ran that mastermind before. And then I talk about more with my like group practice owners because they’re more in that place of like they’ve usually done some foundational pieces and they’re getting more into how do you use this powerful tool that is now at your disposal? Is even challenging yourself to think about like a top three. Like, what are your top three values? Yeah, because there’s this whole, you know, piece about priorities. And, you know, I think many of us have heard by now this concept that there didn’t used to be a concept of priorities. You had a priority, you had one. And now when we think of priorities, we have a list of like 20 things that pops into our brain. It’s hard to get it down to one, but I find three is helpful in like, modern age. 

 

Maegan [00:25:48] All right. I’ll meet you in the middle. 

 

Linzy [00:25:49] I’ll meet you in the middle. You get three priorities, three values. And I find, like, looking at, you know, Brené Brown has that list of values which I use, you know, as a great starting place with folks. Just like, peruse that list. And like, what calls to you? Like, what is most important in your life? And values, I think can be abstracted or like, you know, put into certain contexts that make them very loaded. But it’s just a question like what is actually important to you? What’s the most important to you? Right? And what does that actually look like? Right. If family is important to you, what does family actually look like? What do you mean when you say that? It is that creating memories for your kids? Is that helping them like have ease as they go through school? Like, what does it mean? Like, how do you instrumentalize that? Because it’s so powerful to be living your values. And that for me is like ultimately where you get to once you work through all this, like once you go through the murky swamp of money work, right, and like start to have that trauma setting, start to think about new identities, start to like, set up your own systems to make money work for you in the way that your brain works. On the other side, you get to ask yourself, like, what really matters to me and how do I use this tool to get more of that or create more of that in my world? And it’s really it’s a very powerful place to get to. 

 

Maegan [00:27:04] It is powerful and it is really hard work. You know, I, I feel like sometimes people don’t- like values are especially – I’m thinking back to my early days training to be a therapist. And you know, we did like core values trainings and all of these and there’s this like lightness about it. You know, core values work. Oh, just do some values, right? Here’s some worksheets. And it it really missed the mark in terms of like how deep values work is and how, like, you can’t actually do values work without processing quite a lot of grief and regret. You know, when you really look yourself in the mirror and start to get honest about what is actually important to me in my life, usually we then have to grieve how much of that we haven’t held up to this point. So I guess I just want to add into this conversation for people who are starting to really drop in to a deep exploration of their values, make sure you’re well supported in community with your therapist, with your own friends and colleagues, with people who are really having this conversation with their own selves, so that when you do hit up against something that’s heavy or hard or there some grief, like you have someone to process that with, like that is such an important part of this process. Getting clear on what you value is – if I’m hearing you right – the only way to really understand the purpose money serves in your life. 

 

Linzy [00:28:29] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:28:30] And the other thing that that popped up for me listening to you talk about values is that most of the time- I haven’t looked at Brene Brown’s list of values. I will do that. But for me, most of the time, core values are connected to time in some way. Like most core values are connected to time. I want time with my family. I want time to be creative. I want time to tend to myself. And I think that that is the thing money does for me right now in my life is like having an abundance of money makes it possible for me to have more time to explore the things that really matter to me because I’m not kind of stuck in, you know, a 40 to 60 hour workweek, you know, serving clients or serving a boss. So that’s where my mind goes when I think about like, what’s- so if I’m clear on my values, like, what can money really do for me? Well, money can buy me like free time. Spaciousness. What other things come to mind for you? 

 

Linzy [00:29:27] Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:29:27] What can money do for us? 

 

Linzy [00:29:29] That is definitely yours. As someone who knows you well and has also watched your evolution and something like you and I masterminded recently with some other, you know, therapist business friends in San Francisco when we were there. And something that I said to you in that mastermind is like, I- you are now the happiest that I’ve ever seen you. Like, I think you just you keep getting happier. And so much of that, I think, for you, has been claiming that time for yourself, right. Like, that’s something that is deeply important. And I think also for who you are as a person and just your energy and like what really feeds you. Topnotch value. And you’re definitely living that. Right. And I see how that pays off for you in so many ways. You know, when I think about myself, I think that sometimes I think that I want time and I do want time. But, you know, we were talking about this when we’re traveling together. I’m like a project person. I’m a creator. And so is my spouse, you know, my partner. And so that’s something that I see for us is like we are very like generative and we like to think about how to make the world better. And my partner is a city councilor as well, so he’s deep in the like, you know, like homelessness, the opioid crisis that we have happening in Canada, you know, how do we fix this? We think about these things a lot. And so I think for us too, it’s also a family value is is kind of creativity and creation, right? So and sometimes I do I delude myself into thinking, oh, and then I’ll have time. And everyone who knows me well is like, Oh, you’re going to fill that with a project. 

 

Maegan [00:30:51] Well, but I think this is really important that you have to have time to engage in those projects. That having time doesn’t mean having time to sit around and do nothing. 

 

Linzy [00:31:03] Yes. 

 

Maegan [00:31:04] Having time means having time to do whatever it is that you identified is your core value. And I think like that this is the biggest thing we stand to gain as business owners, as people who do control our own schedule, and we do control the way that we make money. We have the ability to create time in our lives, to do our values, to live our values in a way that people who are employed do not. In the way who people are, you know, not running their business in creative and sustainable ways, do not. So, yeah, I just want to make that clarification that it’s money can afford you time not to be working in your business so that you can explore your values outside of your business and whatever feels right for you. 

 

Linzy [00:31:50] I think about that too, as you were talking earlier, about how like when you really look at your values, there’s going to be grief and you’re going to have to like accept where those values have not been present. And what I think about is, is the next piece of this is you’re also going to have to be honest with yourself about making decisions, like actually prioritizing. Oh, yeah, right. I think we we do very much live in a, like, we want to have it all society where it’s like, oh, I want to have time to like, enjoy my kid while they’re young. But also, I mean, I feel really frustrated if I need to take time off to be with them because I could have been making a thousand dollars that day. Right. So it’s like really being honest with yourself of like, wait a second, what actually matters to you right now? And that’s a conversation I remember having with a coaching client at one point, like, this is a gift, right? The fact that we do work for ourselves and we can make the choice to say like, Hey, my kid was sick, I’m going to be home with her and just let her sleep on me all day. You know, when we’re so driven by this idea of what success looks like and it’s like I should be making money because I could be making money. We miss the fact of, like, you’re winning. Like your family has enough that you’re okay and you get to be home with your kid and they don’t have to be like, you know, at daycare or like with a babysitter when they’re feeling really sick and they just want their parents. Right. Like that is winning. Like that is you actually living your priorities if that is, you know, one of your priorities. But it’s like, we do have to make hard decisions ongoingly to make sure that we are actually living those values because there is always going to be this noise of like, but you could be more productive, you could be making more money, right? Like you could be getting money to buy that nice thing that the person next door has, like the keeping up with the Joneses is real. And it looks different now because now it’s social media and it’s Instagram and whatever. 

 

Maegan [00:33:30] Lifestyle creep is real. 

 

Linzy [00:33:32] Lifestyle creep is very real. 

 

Maegan [00:33:33] So to reflect, it starts with really naming what your values actually are, and you’re giving people three, three. They can have three.  

 

Linzy [00:33:44] You can have three.Yeah. 

 

Maegan [00:33:44] That’s it. No more, no less. Now identify three values that- this is a question I posed to my clients a lot. It’s a little bit morbid, but, you know, like, life is not infinite. If you found out that you were going to die tomorrow, like, how would you spend your last 24 hours here? What would you look back on and regret not having done more of? Like that can be a very evocative way to begin to peel back the layers to find like, Well, what are these three core things that I really want to organize my life around. And what I want to just remind people of is that, like, your business exists to serve you and your family first and foremost. Your clients are secondary to you serving yourself. So when you identify these three core values that you really want to organize your life around, your next job as a business owner is to figure out how do I curate this business that I have so that it fuels and funds those things that I’ve identified as my core values. Yeah. And then you’re saying, Linzy, that’s when you can really answer the question, What does money mean to me and what can money do for me? Money is a thing that you make to serve the core values you’ve identified are most important to you. Am I getting that right?

 

Linzy [00:35:01] Yeah. And as we’re talking about those, too, the other word that comes up for me, which is one of my favorites, is like enough-ness. Like it’s also the root to enough-ness, because when you’re actually living your values in your life, you know, when you’re really doing the things that like feed you and that are rich and meaningful for you. And that’s different for every single one of us. When you have a lot of that in your life, the striving really quiets down, right? The illusion that like, Oh, if only this, then I’m going to feel satisfied, right? Because the truth is like you can build a life that gives you deep satisfaction. Now, I would say almost regardless of your financial situation, but by getting money working for you, you can get more of that into your world and you can be doing that without like sacrificing something else in the future, like your financial stability, your retirement, right? Like you can have both. You get to be present knowing that you have enough and you’re on track and everything’s okay, and you don’t need to be constantly pushing for more. 

 

Maegan [00:35:58] Oh, I think that is a really beautiful note for us to wrap up on this. Just this reminder that you you don’t have to spend the rest of your life pushing for more, that your worthiness as a human being is not attached to how much money you make or what your job title is or how many figures you can say your business earns every year. That that’s all nonsense. The money you’re generating through your business is a tool to fund the beautiful life that you are creating for yourself and for your family. Nothing more and nothing less. But coming full circle back to the beginning of our conversation. In order to do that, in order to be able to paint that picture, you have to have a foundational set of money skills to use so that you know how to run your business, you know how to categorize your finances and how to pay yourself appropriately, that those skills are really non-negotiable. If you want to create a sustainable business that funds your life. So it’s all of these pieces together, the emotional skills, the emotional stories, the processing of the trauma that comes for you around money. Balancing that all out with like actual strategic spreadsheet skills and understanding of like banking and like how to move money from one place to another. Moving that into how do I use this money that I now know how to organize the fund, the values that I have for my life? Am I getting that right? 

 

Linzy [00:37:37] You are. Yeah. I think the money is a you know, the skills I think of as a foundation. Right. To to bring a new metaphor into the mix. That’s your foundation upon which you’re stable, you’re secure. And then you can reach and expand and be present because you are. Right. Like, you do have everything covered. There is enough-ness. Like, true enough-ness. Your life is covered. There’s money going towards the future and you can just really sink into being in your life in the way that is actually going to feed you the most. 

 

Maegan [00:38:09] Linzy, this is really big stuff. And I just feel like if all business owners could hear this and really let it in, I’m not saying this to be dramatic. I literally mean, like the whole world would be such a better place, a kinder, gentler, more loving place, a happier place that like it starts here. And I’m so grateful that you exist and that you are here to share this wisdom and knowledge with people through this podcast. And it was such an honor and a privilege to be able to interview you today. So thank you for having me and thank you for just existing. It’s a real pleasure to know you. 

 

Linzy [00:38:47] Thank you. Maegan. This was really fun. I am so appreciative of Maegan for coming in and doing this interview with me to end what is actually season six. I did go back and check this is our final episode of season six of the Money Skills for Therapist Podcast. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. It was really fun to dig into those things with Maegan and to be the one being interviewed instead of the reverse. And if you are curious about money skills for therapists, we’ll put a link in the show notes to watch the masterclass. So there’s a masterclass that you watch, which gives you a feel for me and how I teach and what’s included in the course. It really walks through what’s included in the course. So we talk there about the six months of support that are now built into the way that we teach it and all the modules and all the content. And you can check out that masterclass to learn about Money Skills for Therapists, and also have the opportunity to join us if it calls to you. So thank you so much for joining us for the end of season six. We will be back with season seven in the fall. Gonna take a little break. And of course, you can follow us on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you have enjoyed this final episode or any of the episodes in season six of the podcast, I would so appreciate if you can go live review on Apple Podcasts so other therapists and health practitioners can find the podcast and be part of this conversation. Thanks so much for listening. 

Cynthia [00:00:01] For me, emotionally and physically, I needed something different. I would go to work and I think that’s where sometimes that security you have to question a little bit because just because it’s secure, it doesn’t mean that I’m happy going there, right? Or I feel good physically, emotionally going there. And so it wasn’t necessarily about the money, but more about I need to take care of my health. I need to feel good about the things that I’m doing. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today on the podcast we have a lovely guest who I will get to in a minute. But before I do, I wanted to share a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts. You know, I’m always asking you folks to share your reviews on Apple Podcasts. So I wanted to share one from user voluptuous coconut, which is a great screen name. They say, I’ve really enjoyed this podcast. The guests are super knowledgeable and Linzy has a lovely way of having conversations that are incredibly validating and supportive. I always look forward to a new episode because I know it’s going to be helpful, insightful, and even therapeutic. Such a wonderful little gem of a podcast. Thank you so much, voluptuous coconut, for your review. I really appreciate it. So today’s guest on the Many Skills for their Therapist podcast is Cynthia Agyeman-Anane. Cynthia is a therapist, but the way that Cynthia and I actually met is through a non-therapist presence that she has on Instagram, which is @talk_allaboutit. So it’s a channel that she has where she does not wear her therapist hat and just invites folks to have conversations about health and mental health and parenting. And I had a conversation with her a couple of months ago about money and just really enjoyed it. So I wanted to bring her on to the podcast to share her with all of you. Today, Cynthia and I talk about the different meanings that money can have. We talk about the relationship between security and freedom. We talk about the bind that folks can find themselves in when they are working for an institution like a hospital or working for someone else, and the kind of handcuffs of security and thinking about other ways that we can also think about security that might be more aligned with what’s actually best for us. And a theme throughout that you’re going to hear a lot is intention really thinking about how to bring intention into your practice and into your relationship with money to make it better, to actually make your private practice better than what you could get working for someone else in a more institutional setting. Here’s my conversation with Cynthia. So, Cynthia, welcome to the podcast. 

Cynthia [00:03:11] Thank you so much for having me. 

Linzy [00:03:13] Yeah, I’m so glad to have you. So we connected on Instagram, which I feel like is a sentence I’m saying more and more often these days. 

Cynthia [00:03:22] We definitely did, yes. 

Linzy [00:03:24] Can you tell folks who are listening about like what you do? 

Cynthia [00:03:28] Sure. So, hi, everybody. My name is Cynthia Agyeman-Anane and I’m a licensed therapist in the state of Maryland and D.C. And I have a private practice called Conversations Create Change, where we see individuals, families, couples, we deal with all sorts of issues from anxiety all the way to trauma. A lot of my individual work has to do with couples, so I’m a Gottman level three trained therapist. My passion project right now is definitely couples and working with couples. We met through my IG @talk_allaboutit where I get to kind of have a little bit of a creative space for myself away from work. So yeah. That’s where you can find me.  

Linzy [00:04:14] Yes. Talk all about it. Yeah. And you host conversations there with a variety of- 

Cynthia [00:04:19] I do host conversations there. 

Linzy [00:04:21] Yeah. 

Cynthia [00:04:22] Yeah. You know anything from you know, with you I talk to about money and private practice, but I also talk to other individuals around health care. Anything related to healing. I try to talk all about it because I honestly do believe, like, my business name is Conversations Create Change. I like to talk all about it. So anything, anything and everything. I feel like as long as we’re talking we’re healing and we’re learning something new. 

Linzy [00:04:49] Yes. And we’re going to do it now in this space talking about money. We’re planning to have a conversation and just digging into money because I think money is so. Well, I don’t think – I know – money is so personal. Right. And what drives us and the meaning of it, it varies so much from person. So let’s dig into what money has meant for you and its role in your private practice. So that’s my first question for you, which is very kind of open. But like for you, Cynthia, what does money mean to you? 

Cynthia [00:05:17] You know, that’s a really good question, Linzy, because for me, money means a few things. The first one that comes to mind is security, right? To some degree, because even going into private practice, part of the reason that I was a little bit hesitant at first is because I was working full time for a great company, great salary, great benefits. And out of all the the workings that we look for, right, when we’re going into our careers. And so going into private practice, there was a lot of unknowns around will I be secure in terms of when clients don’t show up? What if you get cancellations? What if, you know, people don’t show up in general? If you don’t see your client, you don’t get paid, right. So that’s the mindset going into it. So there was a lot of hesitation initially because again, for me, money is really a security and that’s one of the first things. The second one, for me, money’s freedom, right? Because it allows you to also have access to things that you normally wouldn’t have access to. And so for going into private practice, one of the things that money has allowed me in terms of freedom is the freedom to do what I want to do, right? So I know I’m not necessarily beholden to anybody if my own company is my own stuff with my own time. So it definitely allows me the opportunity to have a lot of freedoms around certain things that- even doing this, right, like I’m able to come talk with you right after this, I have a client, right? Yeah. Yes. I’m able to kind of schedule my schedule the way that I want to. And so that sense of freedom definitely, I think is something that money can buy for you, but it can give you the opportunities to create. 

Linzy [00:07:04] That’s a good distinction because I think sometimes that we do think that money automatically means a certain thing, like a certain amount of money equals happiness, or a certain amount of money equals financial security. So yeah, can you dig into that distinction a little bit? 

Cynthia [00:07:18] Yeah. So I think there’s a- it’s about how your intentions with it, right, because I used to have this family member, she passed away, she was like 99 years old, so she lived a really good life and she would always have this phrase that she would use. If you have $1,000,000 and you spend 1,000,001, you’re broke. Right? That phrase has always stuck with me because you’re going to have as much access as you want to money, but if you’re not using it wisely or you’re not being intentional with it, it definitely can create some stressors for you, right? Sure. Oh, I think, you know, it’s up to you to determine how you move with money or how you use money to benefit the lifestyle that you want to live or the choices that you want to make for business, personal life, and so forth and so on. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:08:09] Well, and that’s an interesting too, like thinking about money and security, because security is one of my words too, that I often think of, like what is money to me, Like it’s security. But as you say, it’s very much about how you use money that actually creates security. And it makes me think about like when you were talking about moving out of, you know, what can be considered like a golden handcuffs space where you have a job that has all the benefits and it has the pension and it has the guaranteed salary, and like it can feel like that’s very safe. But something that occurs to me is like even in that situation, if you’re not using your money strategically to create like other buffers for yourself, like emergency funds and investments, retirement savings, even that could go away because that’s not actually yours. Like the job isn’t yours. It doesn’t belong to you. Somebody can take it from you because it’s not actually something that you’ve created. You don’t own it. 

Cynthia [00:08:58] Mm hmm. And I you know, that’s so interesting because I feel like there’s sometimes, like a false sense of security, right, when we work for certain companies. So if we’re not careful that security, like you said, can handcuff us. Right. And kind of make us stuck and not unwilling to kind of move and be creative and challenge ourselves outside of our comfort zones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:09:22] Something else that sticks out to me is I think about your two words is they are two words that are almost like two different ends of a spectrum in a way they could be thought about. But I can also see how they layer. So I’m curious for you, like, why do you think, like, security and freedom are your two things or how those things relate for you? 

Cynthia [00:09:38] You know, I am learning more and more about myself, that I’m a more of a free spirit. And I, I don’t know, I guess, you know, after a while you start owning where you are and you just start, you know, becoming very comfortable and say, this is who I am. And so for me, the free spirit part comes in in terms of going into private practice. The thought was I would have more time and more, you know, access to with the family and other things that I wanted to do. And so I think it definitely it just security felt grounding in a way, right? Because I am a free spirit. I feel like, yes, I can have freedom and security grounds me in some way. Yeah, right. So I feel like those bookends of the other. But it works together, you know what I mean? 

Linzy [00:10:28] Yeah, Well, and like, okay, so here’s the imagery I have for it, because this is something that, as I said it, I was like, wait a second. No, no, I have a metaphor literally about this. So when I talk about it the way that I see some therapists talk about it when they are in that position, right, Like they are in that secure hospital job and they’re like, If I just stay for 15 more years, I get my pension payout. You’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s a long time to be committed, right? So it’s like for those folks, I think that they see like the security that they have in that job is right and the freedom of private practice is not safe because what makes it free is also the fact that it’s like less reliable, less predictable. Right. Like it’s not guaranteed. But the way that I’ve come to experience these things and I think it aligns with what you’re saying too, is like I see it more as like a tree where it’s like the security that we can create for ourselves is the roots. 

Cynthia [00:11:12] Is the foundation, right? 

Linzy [00:11:13] It gives us foundation. It’s foundation, right? And so it gives us stability and we can build that like our own tree. Can have that security, like the tree that we build with our spouse and our- that we have for our family. And from having strong roots and security, you can reach and expand, right? Like the bigger the roots, the bigger the branches. Right. And so but you need that secure foundation. And what we see sometimes is the folks like take big financial risks or big business risks and they don’t build in security. Then there’s the opportunity of bankruptcy and loss. And like all the things that we fear, right? Like losing everything when you don’t have the roots, then reaching really far doesn’t mean that you can topple. But I see this, like, beautiful kind of interaction, almost like a mirroring between those two things. 

Cynthia [00:11:59] I love that. 

Linzy [00:12:00] That makes both of them. Yeah, they’re the same thing. Yeah, that resonates. 

Cynthia [00:12:04] It does. And I love that. It’s such a beautiful imagery. Right. But yeah, and again, if the foundation is not firm and strong, right, you can branch out as much as you want to. And I feel like that’s- and going into private practice has definitely allowed me in a lot of ways to be intentional. Right? And not always. I don’t always get it right, but definitely being how far I want to reach and how, you know, how much freedom I want to kind of give myself. Right. There’s a beauty in that too. 

Linzy [00:12:37] Yeah. So I’m curious then, like thinking about your step into private practice. I’m hearing you were in this kind of like, traditional secure job and you stepped into private practice. What was the role of money in you deciding to take that step?  

Cynthia [00:12:49] You know. I don’t know if money was necessarily a factor in terms of like what I make more or what I make less. Right. It was more, again, going back to that sense of freedom in a sense for me emotionally and physically, I needed something different, right? I would go to work. And I think that’s where sometimes, that security, you have to question a little bit, right? Because just because it’s secure, it doesn’t mean that I’m happy going there. Right. Or I feel good physically, emotionally going there. And so it wasn’t necessarily about the money, but more about I need to take care of my health and I need to feel good about the thing that I’m doing. And it also allows me, again, back to the freedom of being able to spend time with family and, you know, do our routines and our schedules the way we wanted to do it. So, yeah, money was in I mean, obviously it was a factor. Yes. Yes. I want to be able to have some sense of, you know, security and financial means coming in. But I think for me, it was really just reflecting on what I needed physically and emotionally. Right. And then realizing that, oh, I can do it through private practice. Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:14:00] And what have you found financially has happened for you since you made that step into private practice, I guess. How long ago did you start your practice? 

Cynthia [00:14:09] So my practice, I guess, is like four years old now. Yeah. But before that, I was working for someone else who had their own private practice. I kind of. Kind of saw that a little bit. So it was a transition where I wasn’t like, I just quit my job and I was just kind of like, transitioned that in the way that made sense for me. But to be honest, I found out quickly that you can make as much money as you want or as little money as you want. Right. It’s definitely up to you and what your needs are, what your family budget and income and all of that ratio kind of stuff. So it’s been money-wise, it’s been a better decision for me going into private practice than when I wasn’t. There’s been some growing pains, I think, right? Realizing that you can overwork yourself in private practice if you’re not careful. Oh, yes. Yeah. So I feel like year three, right? Last year. I have to be very mindful about, hey, you need to find a balance, right? Hence kind of figuring out what is it that I want to do? How how do I want to help my clients the most, but also how can I take care of myself in the meantime? So I’ve had to scale back a little bit, but I’ve had to do that because it was, again, right, thinking about what’s best for me. I was kind of prioritizing my health and my physical and emotional health, I think has definitely been helpful for me. 

Linzy [00:15:35] Yeah, And it makes you think about costs, right? Like, I think, as you say, like when you work for yourself, you were the factor. Like, if you say yes more, if you push more, if you market more, you will see more clients. If you modulate or if you don’t put yourself out there as much, you’re going to see less clients. Right. But if you do go to that point of seeing a lot of clients, you’re going to hit limits that are different types of limits, right? That are emotional limits and physical limits. 

Cynthia [00:15:59] And you have to figure that out for yourself really quickly or you’re going to be like private practice because sucks, its not for me. And then that’s not the problem. The problem is that you’re not finding that balance or you’re not figuring out where your happy space is, right. Like, you definitely have to find that. I don’t know the term I’m looking for like your soft spot, right? You have to find that for yourself. 

Linzy [00:16:21] Yeah, like you’re like, sweet spot. I like using the term sweet spot when I talk to folks, because what I find too, Cynthia, and I’m curious about your experience of this coming out of a place where working in, like, more of, like an institution, you know, or an agency setting and then maybe working in a group practice, too, where there might be minimums that you need to hit. What I noticed with lots of folks is when they go into solo practice and they really just are their own boss, they still treat themself the way that those institutions or other businesses treated them, right? So it’s like it’s almost like wherever you go, there you are. Except that now where you are, you’ve like internalized all these ideas of how much you have to work and like not really valuing your emotional well-being as much as it could be the money, or could just be thinking like, this is what a full day looks like. And so with that sweet spot conversation, like a conversation I had with folks a lot in Money Skills for Therapists is like, I see that come up where I’ll say like, okay, so let’s just think about in a week, like, what is your sweet spot of sessions? They’re like, Well, I can do 25. It’s like, That’s not what I asked you. Right? But we’re so conditioned to think about what is my max. Like I say, sweet spot people here. What is the maximum at which you’re not technically dying, but you will enjoy it for years. Right. That like, to the max. I’m curious about your own experiences with any of those kinds of, like, internalized pieces.  

Cynthia [00:17:33] Well, I think I was lucky in the sense that transitioning into private practice, I was very mindful of what I wanted to do. And so those core beliefs or conditioned behaviors around the clientele and different things like that. I think I was very mindful not to get caught up in it. And I think obviously I did the first year because I was like, Well, I’m only one person, right? But they all are these clients and be providing them the service that I want to provide them. And so I had to again, scale back. But I think I was lucky in the sense that I had a community of other first-time private practice owners. Right. So I feel like we did a good job of supporting one another in terms of, Oh, you’re seeing how many clients. Right. And kind of talking around like self-care and balancing and, you know, family expectations and different things like that. So I think that was helpful for me and then for me as well. I think when you have a family, right, you also have to be thoughtful around those things, too. So I think that also forced me because again, the intention was I was supposed to find a balance right, between work and family. So I think that also forced me to be very mindful about, okay, I can see clients up to this time, but I had to transition because the kids have activities or, you know, they have to have dinner or bedtime or all of that stuff. And so I think there were a lot of different factors that helped me to not get caught up in those and institutionalized core beliefs around numbers and client base and all of that stuff. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:19:11] Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, coming back to a word you’ve used a few times, it sounds like you’re very intentional. 

Cynthia [00:19:17] You have to be. 

Linzy [00:19:18] Like, you know why you went into this. You kept that. You didn’t lose that as soon as you got into private practice, but you kept that like family in balance and your health as a center. 

Cynthia [00:19:28] I want to say I- you know, I got caught up in it the first year because it was just exciting, right? Like the endorphins. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Like, Yeah, yeah, there’s that. 

Cynthia [00:19:36] All over the place. But I think, yeah, after the first year, it was like, okay, I cannot sustain this, right? I will burn out. I will- you start getting resentful, right? And that’s not a healthy place to be when you’re doing anything but especially private practice because you are like literally the one. 

Linzy [00:19:57] Yeah, yeah. Yes. You’re supposed to be holding neutral emotional space for folks and resentment is not really conducive to that. 

Cynthia [00:20:04] So yeah. So luckily for me, I have a group practice too. And so I think I also had to model that for, you know, some of my staff as well. And they actually did a really good job modeling for me because I had one clinician who only saw a certain amount of clients, you know, every- a certain amount of days just because that’s what she could sustain. And I admire that about her. It was like, oh, okay. 

Linzy [00:20:30] Yes, yes. 

Cynthia [00:20:32] I get to do that too. People around you definitely can be helpful with some of those. 

Linzy [00:20:39] Yeah. Yeah. I’m hearing lots of like positive influences. Yeah. From peers and even from the folks working for you. 

Cynthia [00:20:45] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:46] In your private practice. I’m curious, like, what are some of the best money moves you’ve made since going into private practice? 

Cynthia [00:20:53] Well, you know what? I guess it’s, it’s really initially, you know, we’ve had conversations around insurance versus self-pay versus, you know, some other things. And I think for me, one of the reasons I wanted to, you know, offer Conversations Create Change to people was really making it accessible. Right. And so I’ve really had to be careful not to, like, only go self-pay only. And so I think for me, the best money move, I guess, is like working through the insurance companies for me. Because it just allows me to have more access to clientele. And so that’s been very helpful for me. But I think the other thing that I’m learning as well is one of the things that personally for me that I want to kind of, you know, shift into is doing like more couple work or doing like workshops and different things like that for couples. Yeah, not only does it allow me then to have more access to clients in a short period of time, right, But it also allows me to kind of like do the work that I want to do effectively in a short period of time without like going months and months and months and months and session after session after session. I think that’s the transition that I want to get to, and I’m hoping that that’s my next money move. I go back to that word intentional, about servicing clients and then also limiting burnout and, you know, balancing family and work schedules and things like that. You know. 

Linzy [00:22:26] What I hear in that that I really appreciate is like a both/and. Yeah, because I think often those things are seen as kind of opposites where it’s like you either do insurance and you just kind of take whatever the insurance companies give you and like this is, you know, your financial and potentially emotional suffering because they’re not always their work is like the cost of being accessible and it’s the cost of justice. Yeah, that’s kind of one end of the spectrum. And then the other end is like totally out of pocket or like only like one-to-many services where there’s like no individual access and it’s trying to maximize as much as possible. And what I hear here is a finding like a balance or a mix that suits. 

Cynthia [00:23:04] Your insurer. I think so. The other. Another thing to that, if I can make this as a money move, is hiring the right people for certain things. Right. And I think for me, one of the things I learned very quickly with that billing and dealing with the insurance company was that I wanted to outsource. And so I tried for, you know, the first year or so. And again, it added to my burnout and added. So I feel like there was that and just like not liking this at all. And so it was definitely- bringing somebody on board to help with that definitely was a good money move, I think on my part. 

Linzy [00:23:45] Yeah. And, you know, I think that that speaks to self-awareness, right? Like, I you know, in terms of the question of, like, what is the right first hire, I think one of the questions is like, what do you hate the most? 

Cynthia [00:23:56] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:23:57] And you can’t outsource everything. There’s certain things that like where you do have to show up and like be your own brand and like, you can’t have people network on your behalf or things like that. But like, I know for me, for instance, like website stuff and tech stuff. 

Cynthia [00:24:10] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:24:11] Right. And so like that was one of the first hires that I made, right, is like outsourcing my website like paid a chunk of change for somebody to both write my website because – we were chatting before this call – I don’t really love writing. It doesn’t come naturally to me. I can be good at it when I’m in the flow, but I’m rarely in the flow and websites. Right. So those were like some of the first big investments I made in my practice and didn’t build it myself because I knew for me the pain of it, like the emotional pain and frustration literally wasn’t worth it when I could turn around and see clients and do the work that I loved instead and turn that into, you know, a paycheck for a consultant. So, yeah, being aware of your own personality, I think goes a long way. 

Cynthia [00:24:51] And it makes the private practice a lot more enjoyable, right? If you’re not careful, you can get caught up in like it’s so difficult and, and yeah, not everybody wants to deal with insurance companies. I get it right. But there are people who that’s our jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and so. Yeah, yeah. Have that limit you know from working with. 

Linzy [00:25:11] Totally. I think it’s remembering that there’s people out there who like have totally different brains than you. They like things that you don’t like and things that you might find totally overwhelming or defeating they think is a delicious challenge to dig into. Yeah. So, like, get those folks on your team. 

Cynthia [00:25:27] Exactly. 

Linzy [00:25:28] Yeah, absolutely. Well, Cynthia, thank you so much for joining me today. For folks who are listening, if they want to get further into your world, can you tell them more about where they can find you and follow her? 

Cynthia [00:25:39] Again, my private practice is called Conversations Create Change, and that’s the same name on the website. Conversations Create Change dot com. You can also find me if you’re interested in couples work or couples workshops and different things like that. On Create Change with Cynthia dot com. It’s all one word Create Change with Cynthia dot com, and that’s where you can find information on the Gottman level. Gottman method therapy, as well as some of the workshops that I provide on there. And yeah, if you want to do just have a consultation or whatever about couples work. Hit me up on there. And then if you want to kind of see my fun side, @talk_allaboutit. And that’s the IG. 

Linzy [00:26:30] And we’ll put that in the footnotes, too, so folks can just click the link from the footnotes to go follow Cynthia for these conversations. And I do really so appreciate that you have your like serious brand, your like therapy brand. You’re like, this is where I have letters over here and this is where I just talk about stuff that’s important and interesting. And again, so I think that’s a great. 

Cynthia [00:26:48] That’s self awareness, learning I need to take care of myself. And this is one of the ways that I do that. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:26:55] Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Cynthia. 

Cynthia [00:26:57] Thank you for having me. 

Linzy [00:27:12] In this conversation with Cynthia. I really love her emphasis on it’s about what you do with money. Right. And it’s something that I’ve been thinking about more and more these days is the fact that money is a tool. Money doesn’t actually do anything on its own. Money literally just sits there unless you do something with it. And so it’s really about your intention with money and the actions that you take with it, the way that you actually manage your money and direct your money and turn your money into other things, that is actually what money brings into your life. And any given dollar amount is not going to give you any specific experience of money because it’s really how you manage that money, relate to that money, handle that money that gives you the actual experience of money, that gives money meaning. So I loved her emphasis on that today, really thought-provoking and just loved talking with Cynthia. She has a really lovely presence. So definitely check out her Instagram channel to get more of her in your world. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can do that @moneynutsandbolts. And if you want to be like a voluptuous coconut at the beginning and leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, I would really appreciate that. It’s a really helpful way for folks to find this podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Danielle [00:00:01] That’s why I signed up, because I knew that was something that was missing, was really understanding what these members of reports are saying. I know I have the data now. I just need to actually pull it and understand it. And then all of the things that I have kind of crunched and looked at is still helpful, but I need to do more time nurturing that leader of this organization. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today we have a coaching episode with Danielle Ritsema. Danielle is group practice owner in Sault St. Marie, Ontario. She’s lovely. You’re going to hear that she’s a grad of Money Skills for Therapists and she’s also actually currently in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which at the time of this recording is just like we’re just at the beginning of that course together. I just kind of like rolled out the first two modules so far. So in our conversation today, Danielle and I get into dealing with overwhelm, like feeling overwhelmed by all the things to do in the business, talking about how it’s hard to make time to work on the money, even though you should, just feeling like you never get to it. And ultimately we start to dig into some beliefs about identity and being a business owner and kind of the ick that can come with that. So if you’re someone who struggles to prioritize your money, especially if you’re a group practice owner and you have folks working for you. But even as a solo practice owner, if you struggle to prioritize actually getting to your money, and if you find that you struggle with the idea of like being a business owner, like that doesn’t feel good for you, then this is going to be a great episode for you. Here is my coaching session with Danielle Ritsema. So, Danielle, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Danielle [00:02:19] Thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:02:20] I am so glad that you are here. We were joking earlier that we’ve been trying to record this podcast for no joke like six months and every time we go to record, somebody’s kids are sick. So this is really nice that this is lined up for us. 

 

Danielle [00:02:31] Yes, it’s the post-COVID plague season. 

 

Linzy [00:02:34] Yes. Yes. So thinking about our time together today, tell me what’s coming up for you that you could use some support with today? 

 

Danielle [00:02:42] I think there’s been a lot of change. It’s hard with private practice when you’re one on one. So I have a group practice. And when I was one on one, I think I did a lot of work to be very intentional with how I chose my schedule. And I listened to great people like you and Allison Puryear and other people. And did all the things, did all the research, and was so intentional in setting up the foundation and was really happy with that. And I always thought I might want to add people down the road. I had supervised students in the past, but I didn’t expect to do it early on and I just happened to open my clinic just before COVID hit. So in March of 2020, it was when I was sort of getting ready to move into an office in April. And then everything kind of changed. So that threw things off too. But shortly after that, when we were back in office, I had a student reach out and it made sense for me to take her on because she was just so fabulous and she reached out to me. So I wasn’t looking for it. But a lot of the things that have happened over the last year and a half to two years since I started growing a group practice have felt really organic and people have come along the path at times when it just made sense to offer a different specialty. Space became available in the same building where my office was. And so it just it felt fairly easy to bring in amazing people and to be able to offer great services to my clients and to our greater community. At the same time, I didn’t realize when I first opened my private practice how much I was going to miss having people around. But it was those in-between things and the team meetings that I really, I really did miss. And I went through a whole grieving process around that. And so I got really comfortable in my private practice, my one on one, like just myself, my solo practice. But there was a little piece there that was like, Oh, it would be nice to have these bigger things and be growing something and have more community outreach and just I was looking for more. But I think part of what motivated me early on was I’m going to do all of this work upfront and then I’m going to get to a point where the systems are in place, people are settled and then I’ll be able to settle again like I did in my solo practice, will be able to schedule my day with these nice lunch breaks, schedule in my self-case and going to work out when my kids are in school, and having more of that autonomy and freedom. I think I thought I’d be there already. And I also thought that the payoff would be better in terms of like all this time that I’m pouring into it and then not necessarily getting that back financially. It gives me more stability. So when my kids are sick and I have to cancel my full clinical day, I’m not left with no income because I’ve got a team. And that was a huge benefit. But I think I also thought I’ll be able to do a little bit less clinical time and be doing more of the business things which uses these different parts of my brain, which I enjoy, I’m curious about. The problem is now that’s just unpaid time. So I’m finding like, Oh, I almost need to work the same number of clinical hours. But now I also have all this work to do because the settling isn’t happening. 

 

Linzy [00:06:09] And what I’m hearing is you wanted more, you got more, but it wasn’t necessarily the more that you were envisioning. 

 

Danielle [00:06:17] Be careful what you ask for. 

 

Linzy [00:06:17] Or like, Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay. You’re still working almost the same amount of clinical hours that you were before. And how many hours a week is that right now? 

 

Danielle [00:06:26] Actually, I would say it is a little bit less. It’s less maybe because I’m squeezing more people into less time clinically. It’s about like 10 hours per week.  I think when I did Money Nuts and Bolts with you, I was like averaging closer to eight and you were like, Oh, like you might need to go up based on my goals then. So I was working four days a week. Keeping my Fridays or my Mondays – one day a week – as like an admin day? 

 

Linzy [00:06:52] Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:06:52] One of my therapists needed office space. I gave up my office for them so that I could work from home. And I made another day, a second day more of an admin day. And that was an attempt to get a little more balance back in my life. But then I found that that’s not enough clients, so now I’m actually adding an extra clients. So the other three days – so that they’re fuller days. 

 

Linzy [00:07:14] So you’re at about ten clients a week, but I’m hearing that it sounds like there’s a lot of admin. Tell me what that’s looking like in your week. Like what? What is your week looking like? 

 

Danielle [00:07:23] So my Mondays, I always have to review contractor invoices and the payroll for my admin, and then I do that on Mondays. So I did hire a bookkeeper. I had been debating it for a long time and was just drowning more and more in bookkeeping. So I hired a bookkeeper as part of with my accountants firm. And so that has been very helpful. I wouldn’t say it’s offloaded a whole lot of time per say, but it’s cleaning things up and it’s things that I wasn’t getting to that would have been a mess down the road on top of. And they’re really good at emailing me anything that’s missing. So that has been helpful in that sense. And they are the ones that process the payroll. So after I’ve checked it and made sure all the numbers are right, which often there’s a- there’s always a mistake. Everybody’s always late and I’m having to remind them to send me their invoices and then tracking them down and then they send me and then somebody has made a mistake so then I’ve got to go back and forth and I’m waiting for them to send it again. And then, you know, maybe half an hour, 45 minutes on Monday like that that takes then there’s just the emails back and forth. And my admin is fabulous. But there’s a lot of things that is my call so then on Wednesdays I often will have a chat with her at some point in the day about new clients coming in, different situations, what she’s doing. And then I have somebody helping me with my social media, which is one of those things that I’ve really debated. But for me, a lot of my clients are in the age range that it makes sense for me to make sure that that’s a consistent presence. And I’ve had a number of clients come through social media, so I try to stay up on it. When I was doing it my own, it just didn’t happen. So having a social media manager. 

 

Linzy [00:09:04] Yes. 

 

Danielle [00:09:05] Yeah. Is really helpful in the sense that it also forces me to do things. She’s fabulous, but then she’ll send me the things and then I have to review everything and make my edits. And then she does it. And it’s weird, right? Because it’s again, it’s like more work than before I had her. But it’s also keeps me accountable to do the work that I should do that I want to do. 

 

Linzy [00:09:28] Yeah. Yeah. It’s harder to slack off when you, first of all, are paying someone, so like, you’re trying to fill your whole practice now, not just yourself. 

 

Danielle [00:09:35] Yeah. So it’s kind of same with the bookkeeper, like I outsource, but also it didn’t really take things off. Yeah, it kind of added some things. 

 

Linzy [00:09:43] Yes, because that was being done probably more thoroughly. 

 

Danielle [00:09:46] Because it’s just better. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:09:49] Right. Yeah. Okay. What is really not working for you about the way that things are looking right now? 

 

Danielle [00:09:55] I think it’s not making progress. Just really thought that I would be further ahead. I racked up some debt when I furnished a second office and that’s just kind of sat on a credit card because I didn’t have anything else. And I haven’t been able to chip away at it like I thought I would. I haven’t been able to pay myself the amount that I thought I would have been able to buy now, like, I really thought, okay, it’ll take a couple of months to start filling them up, but now they are a little more full and still I’m not getting to that level that I thought I would. I brought on a student in January who is a virtual student, and I have had the hardest time. I can’t- which I have somebody helping me with Google Analytics and Google ads. And they said like no one clicks on the keyword virtual. So that is a huge loss that like she’s now extending her placement because she hasn’t had enough clients, which I feel bad. I’ve been putting money into Google ads trying to get her clients. It’s not been working. So that’s a loss there too. 

 

Linzy [00:11:00] This is like a slight aside, but is there a reason she needs to be working with folks who are in Sault Ste. Marie if she’s virtual? 

 

Danielle [00:11:06] No. So we also have a second ad in the Ottawa area where she is because although people might be more apt to do virtual, but then we are fighting with Better Help and large corporations, you have way more money to spend on your ads so we don’t show up so much. 

 

Linzy [00:11:23] Okay, so you’re competing. Yeah, because that’s that’s a thought there and that’s for your Google Analytics person. But like, what are the places- because she could be serving anywhere in Ontario. So as we think about your numbers, like I’m hearing you’re talking about your own sessions, right? Like that you need to keep your own numbers at ten a week. How many sessions a week are being done right now by your team? 

 

Danielle [00:11:41] I think close to 40. 

 

Linzy [00:11:42]  40 sessions week. 

 

Danielle [00:11:44] Yes. I have one therapist that consistently does like 14, one that does about probably closer to that too, 14, but she’s the one that’s leaving. And I have another that does closer to 10 to 12. Then another that’s also a winding down that only does about four. And then my student who has been doing two or three a week. 

 

Linzy [00:12:04] So where does that put us then? What were those numbers? 

 

Danielle [00:12:06] Yeah, so 46, maybe? 

 

Linzy [00:12:08] Okay. Okay. So 46 sessions a week. 

 

Danielle [00:12:10] Which is a lot like that’s a lot of sessions. 

 

Linzy [00:12:13] Yeah, it is. Right. I’m hearing that your brain goes to or has been focused on how many sessions you need to work. Because as we’re thinking about this, like what I am noticing, you know, it’s helpful to know that these are the numbers of your team, what your team is doing. And I’m hearing there’s some flux in your team, but also there’s there’s folks leaving, but there’s also folks coming. And some of those folks are students. And so these numbers are going to shift. But, you know, what I’m hearing is your brain, you know, is noticing how many sessions you need to work or you need to get up those extra three sessions. You need to be at ten or whatever. But this variable is a really big important variable, which is your team, right? And like how many sessions your team is bringing. Because what I’m hearing is something right now in your group practice machine, the money is not working in such a way that there’s really profit, there’s not extra. You know, I think sometimes people only hear, they hear profit. They think like extra like extravagance. In this case, by profit, I mean extra money that you could be putting down on these debts – is not there in the way that the numbers are working right now. Thinking about your group practice, the way I visualize it is kind of like this machine with all these different cogs, right? And each one is like a variable that we have control over, right? Like there’s your operating expenses, how much you’re paying for rent and like your systems that people are using. There’s how much your team is charging, like the fees that they’re charging, which might be consistent across your clinicians or they might vary. There’s the wages that they get paid for those fees, which determines how much goes to them, how much goes back to your business. There’s your administrator and how much you’re paying for that non-income-generating employee. But they help you run the machine, right? Like there’s all these variables. And thinking about those, I’m curious like, do you have a gut hunch of where those numbers might not be working? 

 

Danielle [00:13:56] I think I’ve really questioned the operating expenses. Like some of that- the Google ads has worked really well for us to get people, but it does not work well for me to get clients for my virtual student. So that’s a piece where it just feels like the money is just going and it’s not going anywhere, which is frustrating. Yeah, the social media too. It’s like helpful for me to have a presence, but I don’t know how much it’s really bringing in clients, but it’s also it’s not really that much money per month. It works out to be just over 600. It’s like 590 plus tax or whatever. So it’s like a 150 per week or something like that that I budget. And I’m like, that’s not that much money. 

 

Linzy [00:14:40] No. 

 

Danielle [00:14:40] When I think about how much content she helps me put out, that’s high quality, way better than anything I ever did before. 

 

Linzy [00:14:47] And if that gets you one client who’s coming weekly, then it’s being covered. 

 

Danielle [00:14:51] When I think about the numbers that are ongoing and something that pops up that I chew on and I question, but then I go like, I think that’s pretty good. I don’t know that there’s a whole lot of wiggle room in terms of people’s fees. Like I feel pretty good about that. I don’t see that. I think it’s like making sure people are full. I have one clinician that for whatever reason isn’t consistently full. There’s a little bit less follow up. So my admin is contacting their clients to follow up and rebook and things like that. 

 

Linzy [00:15:19] There’s a suspicion that it might be OpEx, but I’m not hearing anything that’s glaring at this moment. But I do know there’s been big OpEx in the past, right? Like there’s those large investments that you’ve made. And I know you’ve mentioned one that that we’ve talked about previously that didn’t really pay off like you made a big outlay and didn’t see direct return. Do you know right now, Danielle, like what your monthly profit and losses looking like? 

 

Danielle [00:15:42] I have a report from QuickBooks. I don’t know really what it means. I don’t understand it because I don’t see that profit. Yeah, like I don’t have the money in the bank. 

 

Linzy [00:15:57] As we think about this, like, I guess one question is: would you want to look at your profit and losses together? 

 

Danielle [00:16:03] Do you think that I- 

 

Linzy [00:16:05] I know that you don’t. 

 

Danielle [00:16:05] Download it, cross my mind. I’m like, Oh, maybe I should have her help me understand what this even means. 

 

Linzy [00:16:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Contextually, in terms of like this work that ongoingly, this is in module two of Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which I just released. So- which is coming your way as you work through the materials. There are lessons on like learning how to read your profit and loss and your balance sheet because I’m hearing here there’s a disconnect right now. It’s like the numbers you see aren’t making sense for what you’re actually experiencing in the bank, because something that I’m hearing, you know, as we’re talking, the reason that I’ve steered us this way is I’m hearing like kind of like overwhelm and fogginess and like, you’re not where you want to be. It’s like something’s not working, but it’s not clear what is not working. And that information, at least some of it, is going to be in here, right. We’re going to start to see where the numbers are not doing what we would want them to do. So we are looking at your profit and loss now. We’ve got two months side by side, which is nice. It’s like a little bit of a snippet. We’re looking for patterns. I’m going to grab some numbers. So in terms of income, if we look here, your income is is pretty very close between the two months. So April, it was like 30,467 and May it was 30,288, which is super close. So do you have a sense, Danielle, is that a pretty normal looking number to you as far as you know? 

 

Danielle [00:17:24] I guess so. I was doing a good job every month, like kind of checking and yeah, and making goals. And then that just disappeared after, I think, January. So, yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:17:37] I think you you built your systems really well for solo practice and then you grew a lot faster than you planned. Kind of like an accidental group practice I remember is what I kind of called it at first. But you enjoyed it and you’re called to it. It’s not like it’s like I never wanted to do this, right, but it’s happened quickly. Like there’s been a lot of flow to it, but maybe like flow, like being pulled down a river. So a little overwhelming and chaotic. And then I see here, there’s your contractor fees, which vary- are very different between those two months. 

 

Danielle [00:18:05] Yeah. I don’t know why that is. 

 

Linzy [00:18:07] That’s a point of curiosity. Right. Whenever we’re looking at a financial statement and there’s something that’s like, Huh, then that’s an opportunity. Like if you were in QuickBooks right now, we could actually like click on those numbers and be like, Why are these so different? Why? Like, because what we’re seeing here is that in April it was like $7500 for contractors, and in May it was only $3800, which is really different number. 

 

Danielle [00:18:26] I think that that’s because we switched from me paying by E-transfer. We switched to adding them on direct deposit like payroll so that they look like employees now. Okay, So they may show up here. They may show up in wages. 

 

Linzy [00:18:43] Oh, there you go.  

 

Danielle [00:18:45] I think. 

 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yeah. And if I look at these numbers, when I add your contractor numbers and your employee numbers together, they’re actually- it’s just the money is kind of allocated differently. That’s I’m just like recording these numbers roughly. So if we look at your contractors, it was like 75, 75. And if we go down to the employees total wages and payroll, 71, 72 and I’m just going to add these numbers together so we can see like what was your total payroll run regardless of whether they were employees or contractors? In April, it was 14,647 and in May it was 13,208. So like a 1500 dollars difference. I’m curious, what is it like for you right now looking at these numbers? 

 

Danielle [00:19:27] It’s a lot of money that I paid there. 

 

Linzy [00:19:29] Okay, so you’re noticing money going out. 

 

Danielle [00:19:31] That makes up a huge amount of my expenses, which isn’t what I would expect. 

 

Linzy [00:19:34] Yeah. And this is why it’s good to look at these numbers, right? Because, like, now we’re starting to understand, like, Oh, okay. But that makes sense. If we just look at these numbers. Danielle, it’s like, okay, you’re April was 14,647. So what I’m going to do is see like what percentage of your revenue did it cost you to pay your team? So in April it was 48% of what you made went to pay your team. And are you included in these payroll numbers or are you somewhere else? 

 

Danielle [00:19:57] I think I would be somewhere else, but I am included in the service total. 

 

Linzy [00:20:03] So we’re not seeing your paycheck come out of there. If we scroll down to the bottom, okay, there’s your profit. 

 

Danielle [00:20:07] There’s compensation. 

 

Linzy [00:20:08] Right? So they put it aside. 

 

Danielle [00:20:09] This looks really sad. I’m like, Oh, that’s not what I want to be making. 

 

Linzy [00:20:12] It’s not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that puts your owners compensation for May is about 10%. So it’s like for every dollar that came in the door, you got paid $0.10. And for April it’s like a little more than that, it’s probably more like 15%. So you are on here. So yeah, I do see that there is profit showing at the bottom after your owner’s compensation, which is something. So tell me about these numbers we’re seeing at the bottom. 

 

Danielle [00:20:35] And I’m wondering if there’s some things not being accounted for in this report because I usually do the profit first system and I actually have a separate account for retirement and for time off. Yes, those things are not being accounted for here, which I do then sometimes draw from. 

 

Linzy [00:20:54] And that’s something to look at too, because when you make those draws, depending on how your accountant or bookkeeper classifies them, they’re probably not on your profit and loss here. They’re probably on your balance sheet. What I’m noticing as we’re looking at these numbers is it’s like you don’t have like a real handle on these numbers right now. Right. Like these are not familiar numbers that you’re like, Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s typical. This is the percentages I aim for, right? I’m curious right now, like, what is your relationship to your numbers as a group practice owner? 

 

Danielle [00:21:19] Avoidance. 

 

Linzy [00:21:20] Okay. 

 

Danielle [00:21:21] So I do, on a weekly basis because I do payroll weekly and I do my disbursements weekly, I pull the payments from that week and I look at those numbers every single week so that I see exactly how much money came in, what went out in terms of like the fees, what do I need to set aside for HST taxes? And then I do my disbursements that way. So I have a bit of an idea of like, ooh, like this contractor only saw this many that week or I only saw this many that week. 

 

Linzy [00:21:50] You got your eyes on case loads. 

 

Danielle [00:21:52] I have my eye on the number of clients and like on a weekly basis that they have money that’s coming in and out. But not the monthly. Yeah. No, I’m really not looking at the monthly numbers. And even before like it was a very surface-level number that I would pull out of my platform and just see like, oh okay, what’s the total number of sessions? And that was more like, okay, I don’t really know what that really means. I’m just looking at this number like, okay, well, that’s bigger than the month before or whatever. So that’s good, I guess. 

 

Linzy [00:22:21] Yeah. Part of what I’m hearing here and I mean, this is why you’ve joined Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, which we’re just starting. I’m not hearing yet like a real kind of ethos of like being the financial boss, right? Like being the financial leader and being like, these are my numbers. I’m in charge of these numbers. I understand these numbers. When I see these numbers, this is what I know to do. And then I do it. 

 

Danielle [00:22:41] I feel like I’m chasing fires.  

 

Linzy [00:22:45] Yeah. And that chasing fires, like, where does that leave you personally and professionally? What does that do for you? 

 

Danielle [00:22:52] Tired. 

 

Linzy [00:22:53] Yeah, for sure. Yes. Because it is tiring. Right. And I think, too, when you’re used to chasing fires, everything looks like a fire because your feet aren’t really on the ground. Does that ring true or does that feel not true? What do you notice with me saying that? 

 

Danielle [00:23:07] Like I feel like I go from just total avoidance to chasing fire to total avoidance, like I go in and out. 

 

Linzy [00:23:14] Yes, and want that makes me think of like from a therapy perspective, right. Is like dysregulation on both sides of the window of tolerance. Right. It’s like swinging into like, ah, fires, emergency, urgent, down into like shut down, avoid, don’t look. 

 

Danielle [00:23:30] Or just distraction, like I would say like because there’s so many other things to do that I’ll just kind of like I’m just going to shelve that and I’ll just focus on this thing and making this new post about this new person or ordering some new brochure. 

 

Linzy [00:23:45] There’s always things to do, you know, thinking about, about this piece of your business, like the financial leadership, financial management, understanding your numbers, being able to make empowered decisions with your numbers. I’m curious like what would be different for you if you really owned that part of your role, which is a role that only you can do. What would it be like if you stepped more into that space? 

 

Danielle [00:24:06] I would really, really like to. I think my struggle is I still haven’t booked CFO time and that was a month ago, you know, that we talked about it. I feel this hole between like I need to see as many clients. I don’t want to block my schedule. I know that I avoid when I don’t know what I’m doing. And I think with the profit and loss, I was like, I don’t know how to make sense of these numbers, so I’ll avoid it. And also, it’s a lot of time I find it takes to, you know, to even punch out. Like I spent an hour last week just budgeting and planning the expenses for this other office, which part of me is like, Well I just want to buy the things like and then it’s done. Doing the planning sometimes can feel like twice the amount of work than just doing the thing, make better decisions maybe when I’m planned. 

 

Linzy [00:24:58] And I think another piece is when you do do that kind of planning, you’re basically kind of building out infrastructure. You’re building SOPs, right? Which means the next time you go to furnish an office, you don’t have to do that thinking again. You pull up the spreadsheet and you’re like, okay, this is what we budgeted last time. And then based on how it actually worked out, this is where the numbers landed. So this is how much it costs me to furnish an office. And I know it’s real because these are numbers that have been tested and now I can make a financial plan, right? It’s thinking that you have to do well once and then you get to reuse it. It’s like you plan for those like emergency situations, like we just got hate mail. I was like, Oh, I just came back from a day of the spa. I was like, so chill, was like, Oh, I’ve been on the Scandinave, I feel amazing. And then I like open my email when I shouldn’t have. And I saw hate mail and I was like, Oh, And I was like, All right, we don’t have an SOP for hate mail, so we just need to make one, right? And then when hate mail happens, instead of being surprised and it being a fire, you’re like, okay, hate mail happened. Activate step one, which by the way, step one, if anybody listening ever wants to send me hate mail, step one is that I do not read it. And I have my partner who’s a politician, who works for me, read it, because he has very thick skin and then he deals with it and he doesn’t tell me what’s in it because I don’t need to see that. 

 

Danielle [00:26:04] We have a complaint process too, that I just created last week. 

 

Linzy [00:26:08] Yeah, that’s right. So it’s like once you make it, then it’s not a fire anymore. It’s just something that it’s like, okay, here’s the situation that arises and we’re going to now activate this SRP that we’ve created previously that we know works. And working out your numbers is the same thing, right? It takes a lot at first because you’re building new neural pathways. You’re having to think of new things, right? You’re having to learn new things in this case, right? Because this is not how your brain actually works. But once you build that in place and you have a process, you’re just repeating the process. You’re not having to learn it and build the process over and over. 

 

Danielle [00:26:40] I think my fear is I’m going to look at these numbers, spend all this time understanding it, and they’re not going to change. There’s not going to be any new money somewhere, because I’ve thought about the OpEx and I thought about, OK do I really need this? No, I really do feel like I need it. So I think there’s just like that weird nagging on me where I’m like, Is it going to make any difference if I sit down and spend hours looking through all this stuff, punching out all the numbers? Am I still going to be making a lot more clients? Like, I don’t know. 

 

Linzy [00:27:07] If you look at the numbers then and you find there’s not like a fast solution, chances are like when we look at our numbers, there’s not a magical solution. But there will be some solutions. If you look at the numbers and you don’t like what you see, and there isn’t like a fast fix, what does that mean? 

 

Danielle [00:27:21] I just can’t accept it. Like, I feel like I have to find a way because there are things that I keep putting off that I can’t put off anymore. Like, I can’t put off the credit card bills. Personally and professionally. Like, I can’t keep putting them off. So I have to find a way somehow to make more. 

 

Linzy [00:27:42] And what I want to reflect to you is, until you actually understand your numbers and dig in and do the work, which we are going to be doing together in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. So in this case, I’m not like, Go do it, Danielle, it’s like we’re going to be doing this over the next four months. Let’s be real. But once you dig in and you do that work, you are going to see where things need to happen and you are going to understand those numbers. But until you do that, it’s like a black box. 

 

Danielle [00:28:04] Yeah, it’s a blind shot in the dark. 

 

Linzy [00:28:07] And when we’re shooting blind, we tend to go for like, either the things that we like to do the best or the things that are emotionally stressing us the most. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re strategic. How strategic do you feel like you’re able to be in this moment, like with kind of this strategy of not really looking at this stuff and just trying to- 

 

Danielle [00:28:24] Yeah, no, you know, it’s not strategic. I feel like it’s a little strategic, but not really. I look at, okay, how many are they seeing and how many is this one thing and when this one leaves. So I have an idea of like, okay, that should give me this amount of profit. I have that amount of strategy. I know how much weekly I need to be going to OpEx, so I have that kind of nailed down. But that’s like my- and I know that that’s not going to be the exact number, which that’s where like a report like this is helpful because I can see the actual numbers that I’m spending on expenses, not planned. 

 

Linzy [00:29:01] Yeah, the real story. You know, taking the time to do this work would give you a six-month perspective to start because that’s what you’re about to find out in the Money Skills for Group Practice Owners videos that I’m going to coach you to do six months of this and also looking at like what’s on your profit and loss but also what’s not on your profit or loss. Because right now even this record is a bit of a black box for us until we dig into your balance sheet to see, okay, you’re telling me that there’s not been $9,000 of profit that you can see. So it’s like, where’s that $9,000 going? You know, is that profit draws for you? It could also be going to furniture because that also shows up on your balance sheet like going into assets. So if you buy big things for your business, it goes onto your balance sheet. It doesn’t show up here, right? So that’s another place where there’s like some information that once it’s gathered together, you’re going to have like tangible information to work with. So thinking about this then, like we’re talking about how, you know, that there is strategic value to really understanding these numbers. It’s also not fun and it’s not where you want to be putting your energy. So let’s talk about this resistance to CFO time, which for folks listening, CFO time is Chief Financial Officer time. It’s time to like specifically put aside for group practice owners because it is more complicated, like the level you’re at is more complicated and there is learning to do at this point. It’s kind of like you learned what you needed to do to run a great solo practice. You were doing that and then you added a whole bunch of stuff on top. So tell me about what’s coming up that’s making it hard to actually get to your CFO time. 

 

Danielle [00:30:24] I think the fear of giving up client time, clinical time, loss of income there, that risk because that’s 100%. 

 

Linzy [00:30:33] Goes right to the business. 

 

Danielle [00:30:34] Also being afraid of getting in there and not like not knowing where to start. Right. I got that email from my accountants and was like, okay, great. I don’t know what any of this means and save the email. I don’t like to do things if I can’t do it well and if I don’t understand, then I’m like, Oh, I don’t like this. I can be tunnel vision. If I am digging into a topic, there’s like no stopping me. Blinders go on and I’m like, All in. I’m going to learn this and I’m going to figure it out if I feel like I know how to figure it out. But when it comes to some of this stuff, which I had with accounting in the past, I’m like, I don’t know what to do. And that makes me a little dysregulated and spiraling. So I’d rather just avoid it because I don’t know how to figure it out. Yeah, and I know there’s a lot of money stories for me in terms of my dad owns a business. My parents had a lot of messiness around finances, and so it was something that then I was left really to kind of build things on my own more independence before I was really ready and then took on a lot of debt in school and just it was just up to me to figure it out and dig my way out. And so when I dig into my money stories, I think there’s a lot of fear around. Like there’s never enough money is messy. I’d be really careful. So I diligently use You Need A Budget and I track everything. And I had tracked things with a spreadsheet for years all through my undergrad, for decades. I tracked that because I had to, because I had to be careful. And also. I didn’t want it to kind of get away from me. So I think I have this fear of like, money is just going to get away from me and I’m not going to be able to. And now I feel like with the credit cards kind of going, like setting up and fees, I’m like, Oh, okay, this is getting away from me. You don’t know what to do to get it down. And nothing I seem to be doing is helping. So that’s where I think a lot of the overwhelm kind of comes from. 

 

Linzy [00:32:38] You know, I’m curious hearing about these stories like and it makes a lot of sense, you know, coming from a family of origin situation where you didn’t get help with these things and then you did really like you were on your own. I’m curious, like, if that part of you that really holds that story strongly. Has that part integrated yet that you’re in a course, that’s like guiding you through how to learn these things like that there’s a process that you can do. 

 

Danielle [00:33:02] Maybe. But also I’m avoiding the time like I, I it’s on my brain is like, okay, I’ve got to find the time. I’m going to do that today. But then something else, another fire pops up and I’m like, okay, after this fire, then I never get to it. 

 

Linzy [00:33:16] Yes. Yeah. So you haven’t got to the course yet, Really. Like you haven’t-. 

 

Danielle [00:33:21] Done some. 

 

Linzy [00:33:21] Yeah. Because something that I’m noticing as we’re talking is like the stuff that you’re talking about. I’m like, Danielle, I just made a video for you about this last week. 

 

Danielle [00:33:29] Like, I need to get to it. 

 

Linzy [00:33:31] Yeah, like, it’s hard to get to the support that you’ve already enrolled in because, you know, you want to work on these skills. How can you maybe bring more support into this experience for these parts of you that like, feel alone or think it’s going to be so overwhelming to be with these things Because, you know, you have purchased support, right, to like walk you through this process and like those videos are waiting for you. And also like our coaching calls in our community. How can you integrate more of that experience of having support? 

 

Danielle [00:33:57] I need to set aside the time and actually do it. Time is just always feels like it’s too tight. There’s just not enough time. It’s just how it feels in my life, which is really hard. But I need to find the time. And I did do a big chunk of module one just before our very first coaching call because there was like, okay, I’ve paid for this and this has been available now for a week or two. Like I need to do some stuff because other people are probably going to be further. And then, and then it was fine, right? So now I’m like, okay, now the pressure’s off, which is not so good. 

 

Linzy [00:34:28] Yes. 

 

Danielle [00:34:31] I have so many other things that have deadlines and pressure. And I think the only option is blocking out the time on my schedule, not seeing a client, which I have a hard time doing. I had some time blocked today. Yeah, an hour before we were going to meet. And then I was like, I’ve got some other gaps in my week. I need somebody to fill that if that’s their ideal time. And I cleared it. Now I do have some other gaps in my schedule for whatever reason this week’s. 

 

Linzy [00:34:57] Yeah, what I am still hearing is like, it’s almost like you haven’t caught up to yourself. You’re now a financial leader. You have folks in your business who are doing like 46 sessions a week. They also get paid for that time, right? So it’s true that your one hour brings in relatively more than their one hour, but you have these folks who are here to receive your support and your leadership so they can be seeing clients and like doing that clinical facing work. But it’s kind of like, you know, when you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But I think you might not be noticing other tools that you have available to fix this problem. Because when I hear this problem, I’m hearing there’s like deeper things about your numbers that are not working, that we don’t know what they are yet. Right. But like, you’re the person who will be able to figure them out, but your problem-solving brain goes to you just like seeing more clients rather than working on this deeper problem. 

 

Danielle [00:35:44] Yeah. Also something I’m wrestling with, which we’ve kind of talked on is just even like taking that on. I feel like as soon as you’re like, you’re the leader, I’m like, oh, like I get like the icks around like, oh, you’re the finance or you own a business or like, I don’t want to be like a business owner making money off of their, I don’t know, like, it’s a whole thing. 

 

Linzy [00:36:07] Okay. Oh, there, there it is. Okay. Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:36:11] Oh, it’s really hard. 

 

Linzy [00:36:12] Yeah. So there’s negative beliefs there about being a business owner. Now you’re shrinking. You’re literally shrinking in front of me. 

 

Danielle [00:36:20] I’m just gonna go hide. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:36:23] There’s negative beliefs about being a business owner. It’s like you are a business owner, but you don’t necessarily think that’s a good thing. Or part of you has a lot of judgments about that. 

 

Danielle [00:36:31] I’ve always been so like socially justice wired. I am a social worker at my core. I was a social worker when I was five and would watch World Vision commercials. I have that in my core and I can’t. That’s a good thing, right? But there’s also someone who just has made choices that I really disagree with at an ethical level, knowing that I’m like, I don’t want to be that. I don’t want to be this person that like, takes advantage and just like, reaps all the benefits to live this life of luxury on the backs of my clients and my contractors like that is just like not okay. So it’s hard to find this balance place between. I’m a business owner and also and a good friend of mine was just challenging me on this this weekend because she works in health care and was like, you built such an amazing thing. And look at all these partnerships you have in all of the work you’re doing. And I was like, Yes. And so I have to remind myself of like that outreach piece and the ripple effects of those choices, that it’s not just about making money, but I have to make money in order to be able to do those things. So yes. 

 

Linzy [00:37:41] Yeah. Part of what I think I’m hearing is you’re not owning your power. Maybe because power is bad or you’ve seen other people abuse power. Right. But by not owning your power, you know, not owning everything you build and the fact that you do, you have created this brand and this presence and folks want to work for you like folks are coming to you to say like, I want to be part of what you’ve built. By not owning the power of that, you’re also not owning the responsibility of that. Yeah, you’re not claiming the fact that, like you’re the leader, you’re the CFO. Nobody else can do that. Even your bookkeeper can’t do that for you. There is a problem here that only you can solve, but you’re over here being a clinician because that’s where you’re comfortable and that’s what you know, and that’s where you’ve always been. Rather than claiming this role that you’ve grown into because you’re a badass who’s like, built this beautiful presence that like the people want to be part of, right? There is an ownership of that. Yeah. 

 

Danielle [00:38:27] When you say badass, I’m like, Oh, I’m like, I have a hard time owning that, but I do want to be that. But I also really want to be warm and really like- so it’s so hard to find that balance between the two. But I think you’re right. Like that is a real struggle for me to be like, No, I am a leader. I am. 

 

Linzy [00:38:45] Yeah, yeah. I think this is an identity issue coming out in all these different ways. It’s like if you have a really hard time owning that leader role, then like, Yeah, why is it important for you to look at these things? Like you’re unconventional in many ways, although it sounds like there’s a belief you wouldn’t be able to solve those problems. Right? And so like, why look at them. But you are a leader. You’re already a leader. So for you, like, I’m hearing that there’s this image, this Brené Brown image of I think of like soft heart, soft front, strong back. What would it look like if you embodied that a little bit more? 

 

Danielle [00:39:13] Yeah, I think it’s that vulnerability, right. But in a lot of ways I’m good at leadership type thing. It’s public speaking. Yeah. It’s like stepping out and being okay to be in that bright space, not hiding in the shadows. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:39:29] Yeah. And when you say that, it’s like I kind of get this image, like you’re already in the spotlight. You’re like, hanging off the edge of that. You’re like, This isn’t me. This isn’t my spotlight. But you’re already there. People know who you are, right? Like you’ve built a reputation. 

 

Danielle [00:39:41] Yeah. And there’s been really funny instances of that where I’ve been like, Oh, like I own this. And then people are like, Oh, yeah, I know who you are. I know that you own that. And I’m like, Oh, oh, okay. 

 

Linzy [00:39:53] They see you. 

 

Danielle [00:39:53]  But then there’s enough other people where I say what I do and what I own, and they’re like, I have no idea what that is. So yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:40:01] So coming to the end of our our time together, I feel we’ve crossed many valleys and mountains today to arrive at this place. What do you see as your next steps coming out of this conversation? 

 

Danielle [00:40:11] Booking CFO time, taking ownership of that, digging into the content in the group practice Money Buts and Bolts program. That’s why I signed up, because I knew that was something that was missing, was really understanding what these members and reports are saying. I know I have the data now. I just need to actually pull it and understand it. And then all of the things that I have kind of crunched and looked at is so helpful. But I need to do more time nurturing that leader of this organization, knowing like instead of functioning out of fear or like, Oh, like this is happening for now, but who knows if that’s going to last. Like, I think I have this idea of like, well, next year it might just all be gone. Like, you know, really owning that. No, this isn’t going anywhere. I need to have a better idea of where it’s going and making better informed decisions moving forward. And that’s just going to take time, which means maybe not having the initial payoff that I want right now. 

 

Linzy [00:41:11] Yeah, business is a long game. I think that especially with like, I mean, I’m in the online business space, which is like so much worse in this way. But like, I think there is still in some ways this like get rich quick narrative around, like you’re good at business and then you make $1,000,000 in a year. And for most folks, that’s not how it works. Or if you make $1,000,000, you usually spend 950,000. So this is a long game. But two other things occur to me coming to the end of our time. Like one is, I know how deeply you care about people, right? And how much you want to do well by them. And the best thing you can do for your team and for the clients that you serve is to show up and own that leadership role. Right? They’re looking to you for that. And by doing that, you can make the business sustainable and healthy and you can move into a place of offering them better wages and better splits or better opportunities because you actually know what you can afford and you can plan those things strategically over time and make it a really great place that folks want to stick around. Right? Or that they cherish the time that they’ve had with you. The last thing is I would really encourage you to dig into these stories about business leaders. What would it say about you if you really were like a business leader or business owner or whatever, wherever the ick is? Follow the ick because there’s something there. Right. And I think that that identity story is going to trickle into all these different places and it’s going to show up in all these different ways of having trouble prioritizing or other things being important or wanting to see clients. It’s going to have like, you know, 100 different faces. But I think that that is so important to help you shift your relationship to this part of your work. Thank you, Danielle. I appreciate you coming on the podcast. 

 

Danielle [00:42:43] I appreciate you having me. This was helpful, even if it was painful. 

 

Linzy [00:43:01] In this conversation with Danielle, I think we kind of took a winding path to get to where it really felt like, oh, that’s it for me, that oh, that’s it, which you would have heard, is around the identity of being a business owner. If the idea of like being a business owner, especially like being a boss or an employer, if we have a lot of charge or ick around that, if that’s something that we don’t want to own, then we’re not going to own it, right? And that’s going to show up in all these different ways around not doing the things that we know we should be doing, shirking those responsibilities and avoiding the parts of the job that really show us that we are in charge. But whether or not we own that part of our business, whether you’re a group practice owner or solo practice owner, regardless of whether or not you own that part of your practice, it’s still yours. Like nobody else is taking care of that for you. Being curious about what that is for you like, what are the stories? Who do you think of when you think of a business owner? You know, like, is it somebody who, you know, buys yachts while all of their employees are on minimum wage and needing to go to a food bank, then it’s like, interrogate that story, be curious about it. Think about where that came from. What are some exceptions to that? Like, you know, folks who are listening, who do mental health work or coaching work are going to you know, we know some good questions to ask ourselves, to interrogate stories. It’s a real barrier, right, when we’re not owning that role. And as Danielle and I talked about, like there’s a power that comes with that role, which you have whether or not you’re owning it, right. Whether or not you own the power that you have even as a therapist, but also as a business owner or a boss? Even if you don’t own that power, you still have it. And if you don’t own it, then you’re not able to use that power in really thoughtful ways to really reflect your values, right? So by avoiding it, we can actually end up doing the opposite of what we’re trying to do is like we’re trying to be a good boss. So we don’t really want to think about the fact that we’re a boss or a business owner, but by not really owning it and like looking at the numbers and making the numbers work, we can end up building practices that are unsustainable or we can be outside of our own needs and boundaries and start having things like resentment come up towards our team or towards our clients. And then, you know, we end up with the opposite of what we want. We end up having negative impacts in our businesses by avoiding that power and that responsibility rather than the positive ones that we’re looking at. So because I’m working on going with Danielle, I’m very excited to hear how this unfolds for her in our next- we have four and a half months together, still in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. Leaving those questions with any of you that are struggling with these kinds of things today, to be curious about your own stories about being a business owner. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would super appreciate if you’d leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way for new folks to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Wendy [00:00:03] I like to delineate. Guilt has a remedy and shame has a spiral. And when we look at it that way, then we’re seeing that spiral. By knowing it’s shame, then you can use your shame-coping tools. Guilt has a remedy. Let’s say you double-charge someone. You ran their card twice and you’re like, I’m so sorry. So you credit one. That’s a remedy. 

 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today I have with me Wendy Wright. Wendy Wright is a financial therapist and today we get into looking at money and money stories on both sides of the therapeutic relationship. So what does it look like when, a therapist, when our money stories are coming up and impacting the therapeutic relationship? What can that look like? What does it look like when money stories are coming up for our clients and how do we sometimes maybe miss those cues? What are the cues to look for? To show you that your client is maybe trying to talk to you about money or there’s something that bears slowing down and paying attention to an opportunity to support your client with money. And then Wendy also shares some of the principles of financial therapy to be able to start to have these therapeutic conversations with our clients. She points out that in the United States, there’s only a thousand financial therapists in the whole of the United States. So if you’re listening and you’re a mental health counselor or doing other kinds of like coaching and support with folks, the more that we can be, you know, supporting our clients with having some of these financial conversations, the better for everybody because this is a resource that is lacking. So if you find yourself uncomfortable when clients bring up money or if you think maybe you’re skipping over money in your therapeutic conversations, or if you know your own money stuff might be showing up in your therapeutic relationships, there’s going to be lots for you in this episode. Here’s my conversation with Wendy Wright. So, Wendy, welcome to the podcast. 

 

Wendy [00:02:35] Thanks Linzy. I’m happy to be here. 

 

Linzy [00:02:36] Yeah, I’m happy to have you. So, Wendy, before we kind of like, you know, dig in to all the great financial therapy stuff we’re going to talk about today. I’d love it if you could tell folks a little bit about financial therapy and what you do. 

 

Wendy [00:02:50] Yeah, absolutely. Because I kind of stumbled upon it, to be honest, years ago. It’s probably almost been a decade now, believe it or not. But I was working in eating disorders. I’ve been a therapist for over 20 years. And what I began to see- because before I was a therapist, I was in mortgage banking. I have a business undergrad, so and I’ve been a realtor. So I had like this money is comfortable to me to talk about. So I started noticing people with struggling with food issues that they would symptom-substitute to money issues, but they were using the same language like if I buy this shirt, I will look thin versus, you know – and I’m completely oversimplifying for the sake of time – eating disorders. So please, everyone hear that. But so I started to see this parallel relationship. I’ve actually got a workbook, found on my website, called The Intersection of Money and Milkshakes, and that’s a presentation I’ve done where there’s some specific, really cool parallels. And then I began to do this work and really began to uncover the power of sitting in a therapeutic session or setting and talking about money in a way that is different than any other sort of place that you can typically talk about money because there is absolutely no judgment. So my practice is financial therapy solutions because we do both consulting and therapy and sort of different different types of ways of bringing in this therapeutic approach. And that is kind of how I stumbled into it.  

 

Linzy [00:04:18] Okay. So, you know, thinking about money then, and the therapeutic relationship, and thinking about kind of two sides, right? Because like, I usually- I’m working with folks who are on the therapist side of the chair, right. Or the health practitioner side of the relationship. And like how our money stuff shows up. But you’re also thinking about like serving folks from a client perspective, right? Like clients coming specifically to talk about money. So I’m curious, Wendy, from your observations and experience, how does money stuff come up and show up on both sides of those therapeutic or treatment relationships that we have with our clients, both with us and with them? 

 

Wendy [00:04:56] Yeah, it really does. And it’s so helpful to pause and recognize this because we are, as therapists – and I have therapists as clients and clients that are clients – but we are as therapists – that was great scientific – in a business, as you know. And that is one of the things that’s really hard now. You know, I have an undergrad in business, so for me the business part was easy. I wanted to read The E-Myth, which is a business book. You know, I like doing spreadsheets, but most of my clients crawl under the desk when I say the word spreadsheet, you know? So it’s important to know that. But with therapists, too, one of the most important things that we want to start with is knowing your money story. And that can be, you know, spending six months diving into every detail or maybe 6 hours just journaling about it, just getting to know – I use the money timeline – and then kind of like look at the key moments where we can see that. Because when we are working with people who we are giving them a service and we are collecting money for it, the higher level of discomfort is often shown, especially for therapists in the number of uncollected bills, you know, uncollected receipts. Yeah. And I’m working with a therapist, like whatever kind of platform they use sometimes in session, we will go in, we’ll share a screen because I work all virtually. We’ll share a screen, will go into that pay now or that button that they click to actually collect their – either whether it’s a co-pay or. 

 

Linzy [00:06:25] Yes. Yeah,. 

 

Wendy [00:06:26] Yeah. And sometimes it can take a whole session just to push that button, you know? Right. So if we’re scared to take the money, then we’re also scared to ask for the money. But what that does on the flip of that is that it’s kind of transferring all that fear and avoidance to your client. But it leaves your client- you don’t know their money story yet because, for one, you’re probably not going to ask if you have some money, you know, fears and stuff. Or also they haven’t come to me to talk about it and come in to you and say, Here’s my money story, you know, but you don’t know it. So coming into it, getting a little separation from it, where you can say if you went to a restaurant and bought some food and they said, Here’s your food, I’ll get around to- I’ll charge you at some point. Right? Then you’re sitting there looking at your bank balance week after week after week going, “When is that $58 charge gonna hit?”, you know. 

 

Linzy [00:07:19] Yes. Yes. 

 

Wendy [00:07:20] So we want to create a comfort in looking at- I encourage therapists to look at the fee agreement as a kind promise. I don’t want to create a lot of shame around promise because sometimes promise can bring up that. But the kind agreement where that is part of the deal, that’s part of the way you’re building trust is you’re saying this is going to be X number of dollars and then it’s collected that day. Or if you’re- a lot of therapists are really scared to raise their rates or really scared to say their rate out loud. Maybe we practice just saying their rate out loud, too, especially if they’re going from insurance to private pay. I will do that with them, too, because that fear and anxiety can keep them from doing it. Or they’ll spend- I’ve had therapists spend hours and hours and hours writing up a disclosure explaining why their fee is what it is and all this kind of stuff. So that is kind of putting this pressure on the client to understand, Oh my gosh, this is a very big deal or whatever. Because you don’t know their story well. 

 

Linzy [00:08:21] And like, what I’m really thinking about and hearing here is like on this side, because we think about the clinician side right now, a lot of what you’re talking about is making our problem their problem. Yeah, right. Like if I’m scared of collecting fees and so I’m avoiding it. I’m also, you know, either creating a situation where my client is like, what’s happening? Is that money coming out or I do finally collect and now I’ve suddenly collected 500 bucks at once and they have like, totally forgotten that they owe me for those sessions. So now I’ve created like a financial hiccup or stressor for them because I was avoiding money. And it’s the same as, you know, you’re talking about raising fees too, it’s right- if I’m making a big emotional deal out of it, if I’m over-explaining and telling them about my kid’s need for special therapy because I’m so like, so don’t want them to think that I’m trying to take money from them. I’m putting like an emotional weight on this interaction and I’m kind of like oversharing or there’s like a boundary piece there that we can be crossing of asking our clients to, like, emotionally understand us or forgive us. That, I’m going to say, is not therapeutic. 

 

Wendy [00:09:29] Right, right, right. For the therapist either. Because usually this is- if this is what’s happening, they’re losing sleep. You therapists, you know what we’re talking about. Raise your hands. Raise your hand. You’re probably driving while you’re listening to us. But you know what? Like the more you’re losing sleep over it, the more you are perseverating over it, you know, the more- And so here’s one of the things that I like to really bring up with money, too, because that’s usually an indicator we have some shame involved. So I like to delineate, guilt has a remedy, and shame has a spiral. When we look at it that way, then we’re seeing that spiral, that perseveration, that like writing about it over and over again, and all this kind of stuff that kind of tells you. By knowing it’s shame, then you can use your shame-coping tools such as maybe some meditation, some self-compassion – love self-compassion – all that. Guilt has a remedy. Yes. Let’s say you double-charge someone. You ran their car twice and you’re like, I’m so sorry. And so you credit one. That’s a remedy. And so looking at the difference between the two. But if you let’s say you double-charge someone and then go into the I’m a bad therapist spiral. You know, then you want to pull in whatever healing or, you know, kind of what you need to do to heal from that, too. That makes sense. 

 

Linzy [00:10:47] Yeah, it does. It does. And I think it’s a really helpful distinction to make. You know, when we are having reactions, to ask ourselves, like, wait, which one is this? Right? Because with guilt too, I think about times where I was late for a client session, for instance, like I remember one client session where I had this client who was just like very quiet and kind of shy, and I went out to the waiting room to, like, get myself some tea. I’m like, do, do, do, do, do. But all this time she’s sitting in the waiting room, I think, Oh, she’s so early. I go back to my office. Do, do, do, do, do I like, go work on some notes, and then I realize, oh my God, our appointment was earlier today. We had changed the time, and she was so shy and like, didn’t want to impose. She just sat there and just waited for me until I came out. And like, that’s a situation of guilt where I didn’t go into the shame spiral of like, I’m the worst therapist in the world. I was just like, Oh, that’s not it. So at the end of our session, I, like immediately remedied it. And even though I still met her for the full time, I credited her back that amount and I said, Your time is valuable. That was my mistake. I’m crediting you back that time. And I think about how me being able to take action because it was guilt, not shame. Being able to take immediate action can actually be very therapeutic for people, right? Like that was actually a very healing experience for her. And she emailed me afterwards to thank me for like the respect that I showed in being able to fix it. And so that’s like, you know, when we can fix it. But when we go into that shame place, we get paralyzed and then it becomes what started as a problem becomes more of a problem if we don’t realize that’s what we’re doing and we stay in that spiral. So what I’m hearing there is like this is a great illustration of how our stuff can become therapeutic stuff. I’m also curious, when do you- like when we’re sitting in our therapist’s chair and we’re talking to our clients, what are some of the clues that we can tell their money stuff is present and there’s maybe opportunity there to dig into that with our clients. 

 

Wendy [00:12:37] Yeah. Hmm. So where I would like to take this is to a couple of things. One, as I’m training therapists to be financial therapists, in putting this together, I created ten principles of financial therapy. And the first one, it has to be first. The rest, I don’t care what order they go in, but the first one is abundant compassionate curiosity and zero judgment. And so whenever- to me that is sort of like the tool to have in your pocket. Most of us already have that tool as a therapist about a lot of things. People can talk about sex, they can talk about trauma, they can talk about childrearing, all these kind of things. And we are attuned to quickly not judge mostly. But when it comes to money, if we’re not aware of our money keywords and our money story, then we may transfer those over. So if someone says, for instance, that they went to buy something and it was expensive or it was cheap, we’ll just kind of mess around those two keywords. So what I encourage therapists to do is to have a very smart kind of play therapy approach. I still remember in play therapy, they were like, Hey, if a kid picks up a dinosaur and says it’s an airplane, you’re like, It’s an airplane. You know, like, you just go with it because it’s the meaning. And if someone says something is expensive and they say, Oh, well, I got these shoes and they were really expensive. And then they say, well, they were, you know, and you find out later they were under your threshold of expensive, let’s just do that. So we’re not applying numbers here. Sure. Then your initial response may be, oh, that wasn’t expensive, because you want to let them off the hook. Because it wasn’t expensive, because it didn’t meet your threshold. But what is important is that they saw it as expensive. 

 

Linzy [00:14:17] Right. 

 

Wendy [00:14:18] So really recognizing that, asking them not being afraid to say what feels expensive to you, they’re like, oh, anything over $20 is expensive. You’re like, okay. Then you’ve got their reference point. Whereas if everybody’s a little bit different, the next person may come in and say, Yeah, I got these tickets and they were really cheap. And you want to say, what’s cheap to you? $20, you know, same dollars. But in therapy, it’s relative. You really want to know what’s relative Because what happens, for instance, you know, if you notice, your client is often saying, I went and got so-and-so, but I had a coupon or it was on sale or something like that, they’re telling you something. They’re not giving you shopping tips. But if you don’t- if you haven’t worked through this yourself, you may look at this and you may be like, What’s that website? I want to write that down. I want that sale, you know, because you have a belief that everything has to be on sale. So then you want to see it. So you don’t want to transfer that, but you want to say, what do you notice? You know, just they’re repeating a pattern to you. What do you notice? That everything has to be marked down. And then there’s some beauty there, you know, that’s therapeutic. Again, you’re approaching it with that compassionate curiosity, no judgment, so that they can have that and you’re not transferring your belief or your threshold. I talk a lot about thresholds, but I’ll pause and see if that makes sense before I go into thresholds. 

 

Linzy [00:15:44] Yes, yes, yes, it does make sense. And I do think that is a really helpful reminder, because I think many therapists have not worked through our own money stuff. Right. And so that is an interesting observation that you make that somebody says something and we want to move on from it. Like we’ve missed the fact that there’s richness there. Right. There’s something, there’s a reason they’re telling us this or like there’s beliefs there that warrants exploration. But if we are not comfortable with money, we’re going to want to skip over it. Right. And find a way to be like this isn’t relevant to the clinical information. Where’s the clinical information? And so I love pointing that out, that there there’s something there to be explored. And so, you know, pay attention if your clients are talking about how much things cost, what is that. 

 

Wendy [00:16:31] Or any kind of repeated words about it. Okay. So many things. So I want to talk about thresholds, but that also kind of brings up well, let me talk about thresholds, because this is important to really recognizing a lot of people have mental price marks or thresholds and they don’t even realize they do. And this is where, for therapists, from where you are, sitting in the chair, looking at your price point. So just doing a meditation, just doing a journaling exercise will help you bump into what is your threshold. Or it could also be called a block. It could be, you know, this invisible ceiling of, what if I charge 100 an hour? Or what if I charge 125 an hour? What if I charge 150 an hour? You know, like really going through and writing down each of those and you’ll hit the one of. Well, I’m not worth that. Right? That’s a block. It’s a threshold. It’s like I can’t charge stacks. I’m not worth it. And so it’s helpful to see that or if someone is- a lot of times now financial therapy, just parenthetically, it’s not it’s not coaching or advice giving. So somebody may say, I just can’t get my money together. That is not an invitation to come in and give them a budget. In fact, as you might imagine, one of the principles of financial therapy is kind of that idea of budget is to money, what diet is to food. So we want to move away from any sort of boxing in any way. But I know some therapists will feel compelled to come in and show them or if they say, I can’t figure out how to pay for my session. You know, some therapists will go in and say, well, let’s write down all your expenses and let’s write down all your bills. And then what you’re going to see is, well, no, they can’t afford to pay, you know. Then what are you going to do? But also, that’s not therapy. That’s not financial therapy. It’s coming in, going, What do you notice? How does this feel? How do you work towards solving this? You know, that kind of stuff, too. So looking at that, looking at not giving me a problem solving and also recognizing a lot of people spend under their- I’m allowed to spend under 50, anything that’s under $50 is fair game. Anything that’s under $100 is fair game. That’s a threshold. In other words, it’s like anything under $100 I get to ignore and avoid. And everybody’s a little different. 

 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yes. Yes. And those threshold pieces, you know, when you notice threshold, like, for instance, talking about fee threshold, because that’s obviously something that therapists think about a lot. Yes. If you are doing that journaling and you notice like, I’m allowed to charge 150 an hour, that’s fine. But if I go up to 190. That’s too much. That’s too much. What is the next step for a therapist once they’ve identified where a threshold is? 

 

Wendy [00:19:12] Yeah, a couple of different things that I encourage them to do first. Just sit with it. So that’s a big part. You know, this is therapeutically we’re slowing the process down, so sit with it. Then the next part might be to do the math on an annual basis and see how that number hits you. So maybe 190 an hour equals, you know, whatever. I cannot do math while I talk. But really recognizing, okay, what does that mean? And then also what they’re not asking- where I help therapists, where I encourage them to start is before you think about the clients, just sort of close that curtain a little bit and let’s look at your home. What is the money you want to bring home? What is the money you’re wanting to contribute to your family? And sometimes they can’t even touch that yet. So until we can touch that, we can’t set a fee. You know, so we’re setting a fee based on some beliefs. But, you know, and mindset is a belief that may or may not be a truth. So we’re setting a fee based on that, based on what we’ve read or what we’ve seen or whatever. But I really want you to come back and say, what does your family need to make the family work? Often that’s been hugely avoided and they’re just using their therapy as a stopgap for solving problems and surviving at home. Right. And that’s painful. And then you’re always on edge. And then a client doesn’t pay. And it- you know, it’s a Jenga game at home, and you’re just like, boom, there it goes. So we want to start with that. Then we want to come back into also look at your story. Where did that become too much money or something like that? 

 

Linzy [00:20:52] Yes. Yeah. And, you know, with that piece at home, something else that I noticed with that piece is like also when you don’t know how much you need at home, the tendency can be that nothing is enough, right? Because you’re like, I probably need more at home, right? And so, you know, when we’re just like pulling – like lots of folks who come into Money Skills, and I’m sure you see this behavior, too, in the folks that you support – they’re just pulling money from the business whenever they need to pay a bill at home. So there’s no clarity on how much is actually needed at home. But also there’s just this kind of like urgent, almost like vortex nature to the home finances where it’s like I just feed the monster as much as I can, which means and you know, clinically what that means is like you are probably saying yes to folks when you’re too tired, you’re overbooking your week, you’re agreeing to times that really aren’t great times for you to work because you don’t want to say no to the money because it’s like more and more and more. And it’s such a losing game, right? Like it’s it’s so unsustainable to not have that clarity. But I do agree, like it is kind of almost like a black box for some folks of just like home finances can feel very scary to look at, to like, get real about their numbers. Even folks who’ve done quite a bit of work and thinking in the business, home can still feel very loaded and heavy. 

 

Wendy [00:22:06] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because so often we’re split. We have sort of I mean, I will confess I have a business mind. And then I have a home mind. They don’t always talk to each other. 

 

Linzy [00:22:16] No, absolutely. Yeah. And like, something that I encourage folks to do, which is kind of a- it’s a bit of a stopgap measure, but it does help, is like if you do have the business stuff working, like use that to power up your personal goals while you’re still working on the home finance skills. Like pay for your retirement from your business. As if your business self is super good with money, but home self it’s still blurry or there’s issues because partner has different ideas about money because there’s all those dynamics too. At least use that machine to take care of you financially while you’re working on like the personal finance stuff. Because it takes a minute. Right. Like there’s a lot of pieces to untangle there. Yeah. So, Wendy, I want to hear one more. Can you give me one more of the principles of having these conversations with clients? 

 

Wendy [00:22:57] The principles of financial therapy, well, yes. So, gosh, I love them all. They’re like my little children. Although-. 

 

Linzy [00:23:06] I know there’s ten, so I’m like, let’s be selective. I know you love them all, but what’s your favorite? 

 

Wendy [00:23:09] Well, I really like this one because this is where I often wind up starting with people is a plan is only as good as the adjustment process. And this comes out of how many times- and again, people listening, don’t raise your hand, I know you’re driving because I was driving earlier today and listening to you, so. How many times you’ve started a pretty multicolored budget, quote unquote, air quotes, budget. And we want to look at where did it dissolve? Because usually it dissolves in the first 30 to 90 days. So we want to come back to that. Typically, what I have found is it dissolves because there’s not an adjustment process. So it looks really pretty. Yes. But we’ve got to know how to adjust it, whether it be for ourselves, our partner, life partners or business partners, whatever. And so the adjustment process is what I work with clients on a lot before we even get to a plan. And, you know, I know this frustrates the hell out of them. They’re just like, Can we get to the numbers, get us some homework, you know? And I’m like, Yes, we’ll get there. Trust the process, which I know is horrible for us to say no. So it’s so true. So but really understanding and the adjustment process is a lot about, in short, communication skills. So we’ll just say that because we want to use good communication skills and also about knowing where we want to go. So a lot of money is done by looking in the rearview mirror and going, What the hell just happened? You know? But we want to look out. We want to look out at least 12 months. And this can be done. It can be done. It feels daunting, but it can be done. And so we start with that kind of idea and begin to create something that’s more mindful and meditative. 

 

Linzy [00:24:51] Yeah, I like that. Yeah. With that adjustment piece, too, when do you like, I’m curious if you also see this. Like, I see so much perfectionism and rigidity come into our relationship with money and then with a budget, because I know folks will have, you know, this question as they’re working on budgeting methods in Money Skills for Therapists. It’s like, But what do I do if it changes? And as it will, it is going to change. They will change, right? Yes. So it’s like, that’s not a failure. If your budget doesn’t look to plan, it’s that like being with and being flexible and yeah, the adjusting that actually makes something sustainable, right? Because we’re humans living human lives. 

 

Wendy [00:25:31] Yeah. I think normalizing that is a huge part of what you and I are doing. We’re just saying yes, absolutely. It’s probably one of the most frustrating things that we say to professionals because I will say right off the bat, money work is never done. It’s never done. Yeah. So we’re building you know, think of it in terms of a framework. That’s why I like percentages instead of like- and also we want to look at how many times the word “should” comes up. So if they’re building their budget off of what Google says a family of three or whatever should be spending, yes, we already are going to have a problem. So look at that. We want to spend some time and yeah, first with our own spaghetti on the wall, see what sticks. Okay, so maybe we thought X number of dollars was a good target and then we found out that it’s really more like this, taking that shame out and also taking that image, that idea that there was some malicious intent somewhere because there just wasn’t. We’re all just trying to figure it out as we go. So really softening that compassion can make a big difference too.  

 

Linzy [00:26:35] Mm hmm. Beautiful. Wendy, I’m so glad you came on the podcast today. It’s been wonderful having you. For folks who are listening, where can they find you? They want to get further into your world. 

 

Wendy [00:26:44] Absolutely. So Financial Therapy Solutions dot com is the website and there are currently a couple of workbooks on there if they want to dive into this a little bit. And then also I’m working- they’ll be links by the time this comes out. Awesome links for a foundational course to begin that process because I stay full most- there’s like there’s, I think less than 100 financial therapists. We need more. So hopefully this has at least helped more therapists just begin to open up some money dialogs at least. So I’m working on a course that will help with some of the foundational, some of these things, some exercises and worksheets and things like that, that will take this to the next level. 

 

Linzy [00:27:24] Wonderful. Okay, so folks, go to Wendy’s website, get her freebies, watch out for her course. Thank you so much for joining me today, Wendy. 

 

Wendy [00:27:31] You bet. I loved it. 

 

Linzy [00:27:46] In my conversation with Wendy, something that really sticks out is just this piece about how, as therapists, we can kind of skip over opportunities to talk with our clients about money. Right. We avoid things if we haven’t done the work. Which means, conversely, if we do our own work and if we are digging into our own money stories and basically building up our own tolerance to be curious about money and be with money in our own lives, that can also translate into our therapeutic relationships. Right. And we know, I hope, you know, listening to this podcast, that money is such an important part of our lives and such an unavoidable part of our lives that can be so loaded and so stressful. So I get excited thinking about, you know, folks listening today, this week, when you’re in sessions with your own clients and just having an ear out for opportunities where somebody might be giving you some clues that talking about money would be helpful for them and working on your own tolerance to sit with and be curious about. And like Wendy said, not trying to skip over it, you know, matching it with your own thoughts about money or putting your own money stories into that. But having that kind of open curiosity that we would have if a client mentioned something about a relationship or food or their sexual relationship with their partner, just have that like openness to give your client a chance to maybe tell you something that they really need to talk about, but they don’t know how to tell you that they really need to talk about it. I like that idea of a bit more financial therapy happening in the world because of this conversation with Wendy. So so I appreciate her joining me today. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And you know what I’m going to say. If you’re enjoying the podcast, I would so appreciate if you jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review is the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to listen in and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today.