Erin [00:00:06] I would say the very first step would be to write down that second step I laid out, which is what do you need to thrive? And it isn’t about money at that moment. It is legitimately just about what do you need to thrive? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?”. I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today I am joined by Erin Gibb. Erin Gibb is a fellow Ontarian with me, and she is a therapist, a clinical supervisor and a group practice owner, podcast host and Therapist Fulfillment coach. Fulfillment is a big part of what we talk about today. Erin and I get into this idea of a Thrive fee, understanding what it takes for you to be fulfilled and thrive in your life and looking at your practice from that lens. We talk a lot about industry conditioning as well as our own personal conditioning and social conditioning that could keep us kind of mired in struggle and in under-earning, although that’s not a word that we use. That’s the word that occurs to me now about some of what we talk about and also talk about what would happen if the therapists, if we actually agreed to take care of ourselves and to be okay and to be fulfilled and to thrive. What that could actually mean for our industry and insurance fees and all these other things. Erin, in the work that she does, talks about creating a therapist revolution, and I’m not much of a revolution woman myself, I’m more of like, read books and listen to records and be in my garden kind of person. But I got pretty excited today thinking about what would happen if we therapists actually agreed that we’re not going to take it anymore. Here’s my conversation with Erin Gibb. 

Linzy [00:02:27] So, Erin, welcome to the podcast. 

Erin [00:02:30] Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:31] So, Erin, you and I are both Ontarians. We are in the same geographical region. 

Erin [00:02:37] Yes we are. 

Linzy [00:02:38] A few hours apart, which is like kind of novel in the online, you know, like therapist consulting business, building space. You called it just before in our chat, just before we started recording the soup that we’re all in of different folks helping therapists. Usually, people are scattered far and wide, but you and I are actually both Canadians in Ontario, so it’s nice to have a kind of more local connection today. 

Erin [00:02:59] Yeah, we’re kind of like neighbours. I actually interviewed someone recently who I didn’t realize is literally a neighbour. I could probably walk to their house. And I was stunned because I’ve interviewed people from South Africa. So it’s cool to be you know, neighbour. 

Linzy [00:03:13] It’s kind of novel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the definition of neighbour becomes very generous when we’re talking about like the entirety of North America and the world. So, Erin, could you tell folks, as we dive in just a little bit about the work that you do? 

Erin [00:03:29] Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll give a little bio to tell people about myself. I’m a therapist. I am a group practice owner and a clinical supervisor, a podcaster and a Therapist Fulfillment coach. So I’m going to focus on the last part because that is the part of the soup that I’m excited about. I’m excited about all of it, but I’m jazzed the most about that. And really, when I say Therapist Fulfillment coach, my purpose there is to really focus on fulfillment. And the interesting thing is that therapists really help others with fulfillment. 

Linzy [00:04:05] Yes, all day. 

Erin [00:04:06] All day. And what I’ve seen from therapist after therapist is that actually we are really good at following rules, we’re excellent students of our culture. That helps people in our cultures be really successful. And yet success and fulfillment are not even close to the same thing. So one of the things I help people with is understanding that when you create from the conditioning of whatever was taught to you to be a therapist, most times you’re going to end up somewhere like burnout or perhaps self-sacrificing, over-responsible, these are all the things we’re taught. And so the road to fulfillment doesn’t come by moving towards the stuff we’re supposed to do. It comes from creating from what would actually be fulfilling. 

Linzy [00:04:55] You know, there was a piece there that stuck out to me that got my wheels turning. You said that we are really good at following society’s conditioning, so we’re good at helping other people succeed in society, right? Can you say a little bit more about that part? 

Erin [00:05:09] Yeah. If you look at what it takes to become a therapist, we are good at being studious. And studies, in at least the Western world at a bare minimum, are about following the information you’re given and regurgitating it and doing what you’re supposed to do. And then we’re unleashed into the world in a field where we were promised that it would be meaningful, and our work is meaningful, but meaningful kind of like success doesn’t mean fulfillment. You’ve been given these ingredients to not be well, right? So I was recently on someone else’s podcast and they were talking about therapists have this incredible difficulty charging what they’re worth, for example, all these different mindset blocks, and I see that it goes back further. So to answer your question, I hope I’m answering it. But the point here is it’s really just the conditions hijack. And so yeah, we help other people, but from this place, that’s very fascinating. What we would say to a client is often hard to live when it comes to a certain choice point. Therapists are a well bunch on some level, and we are so knowledgeable, and we really know about self-compassion and self-care. But when it comes to a choice point where it feels like we’re choosing ourselves over someone else, it becomes a really difficult thing. And I want to help therapists understand that’s normal. We were trained to do that. 

Linzy [00:06:47] Mm hmm. Right. So that conditioning then, like, you know, that training that we have, how does that show up in our practices in terms of finances and money? 

Erin [00:06:55] Oh, what a great question. Finances are what I like to focus because it’s really tangible when I do certain things. So where it shows up is how we go about setting a fee would be an example. For me, I see four different areas that people go to immediately when they set a fee. And I’m going to say before I explain this, I’ve done every single one of these, battle-tested and seen the outcome, which is we set too low of a fee and then that becomes a problem pretty quickly. But the mindset piece is here, come back to this self-sacrifice, I would say. But the first thing I see is people want to set their fee from a place of worth. 

Linzy [00:07:32] Right. 

Erin [00:07:34] And very quickly, that starts to become clear it’s about self-worth. It doesn’t take long before it becomes about: “Can I really say that out loud and feel good about it or do I want to hide?”. And so we start this kind of the wheels turning about worth, what is my service worth? And then it’s about, well what am I worth? It’s it’s a hop, skip and a jump there. And the ego gets in and gets kind of squirrely. Then we might shift to value. So what is the value of my service? What I’ve seen therapists do is say, “Well, I don’t think my service is that valuable, but it will be valuable when I get this training and this certification.”. 

Linzy [00:08:15] Yes. Yeah. Then it will be worth it. 

Erin [00:08:16]  There’s our conditioning, right? It can project the image that I’m perfect then I will be okay. But then people start setting this idea of a fee that- I will actually set a fee that will support me and I’ll get into what I call that, which is a Thrive fee – once I have all of these other boxes ticked. But that pushes the Thrive fee down the road. And actually it’s not anchored to anything, when we try to set our fee from worth or value it’s squarely, it’s a moving target and it is not anchored to anything. But then when I’ve walked people through this process, they go, okay, fine. So I get it, it’s not about my self-worth and value can’t be measured like that. But how about comparison? That’s a really, that’s the third way that’s available. Yeah, that’s available. We try to compare. And from my perspective, that’s normal or do that. And we’re excellent students of our culture, so we’re going to look around, but we have no idea how someone else set their fee. 

Linzy [00:09:20]  Mm hmm Yeah. 

Erin [00:09:21] They’ve set it from their sense of self-worth that maybe isn’t where they’d like it to be. Did they value their services as a moving target of when they get more training? Do they have a completely different financial situation than us? I can give you an example of that. I have a clinical supervisor who has been doing this for 48 years. He’s a psychologist, he’s an older gentleman. And when people in my clinic, when I coach them or people around me and I’ve done workshops and coach them, they’re like, “How could I possibly set a fee that’s higher than his?” And I said, I get that. That’s about self-worth. It’s about value, it’s about comparison. But I ask them, “Do you think he has his house paid off?”. And they’re usually like, “Probably, but I don’t know”. And I said, “Exactly, you have no idea why he’s genuinely setting his fee the way he is”. 

Linzy [00:10:14] Right. Right. 

Erin [00:10:15] Comparison doesn’t really work because most of us are choosing to set our fees in one of these ways. It is very uncomfortable to set those fees. But the fourth thing I see is the derailer a fee setting is the fantasy, what I call it. And that is where we imagine what other people can pay. 

Linzy [00:10:32] Right. Yes. 

Erin [00:10:34] Again, and just like comparison, we have no idea what a person that they’ve never met would pay. In fact, it goes as far as we probably don’t know what our existing clients woudl pay, let alone someone else. 

Linzy [00:10:46] Right. Yes. 

Erin [00:10:48] The value of the work we do, once you do a consultation with someone isn’t about the money. It becomes about can you actually hold a container where I’m seen and heard and valued and held in this caring relationship? If all we did was tell people over the phone our fee, then that would be their only marker of the value of the service. But once we go through a process to help them understand what we do, the money becomes less significant. But to me, the antidote to all this is really about setting a Thrive fee. 

Linzy [00:11:23] When I hear you say the fantasy fee, you know, I think previous to a couple of years ago, I’ve always thought about fantasy as a positive word, right? It’s like Fantasia, you know, like, I don’t know, that kind of fantasy is positive. But I have a friend, Tiffany McClain, who is, you know, in the therapist support space as well, and she’s a psychoanalyst. And through our conversations over the years, I’ve realized like, right, in psychoanalysis, like fantasy just means something that you’re imagining. And often it might be negative. So it’s kind of expanded that term for me, and when I think about what you’re talking about with a fantasy, they set their fee based on a fantasy. What I have seen is most therapists have very negative fantasies about the folks that we’re helping. Like we think that they are helpless, that they have no money, that they, you know, wouldn’t be willing to invest in themselves. Like I think often are fantasies of our clients, and I’m going to say this, this is a little bit harsh, but our fantasy is that they’re victims, right? That they can’t make empowered decisions or that they couldn’t solve problems. And so that’s the most common fantasy that I see therapists having about their clients that they’re unable or unwilling to pay X arbitrary amount that we’re thinking about. What have you noticed in terms of the nature of the fantasies that folks have about what people are willing to pay or able to pay? 

Erin [00:12:35] Yeah, completely. It’s a disempowering narrative. And what I found is if I go a little bit deeper because when one therapist realizes that they’re like, you know, totally, just why would I disempower, right? 

Linzy [00:12:46] Like that’s not what I’m going for. 

Erin [00:12:48] No, it is my gift to empower. What I find is if you just go a little bit deeper, it’s about if I take care of me, therapist, if I really look after me, the equation becomes someone else has to lose. It’s the codependent mantra of our society. And this goes deeper than just being a therapist, deeper than being a woman. I don’t, men experience codependent as well, but there’s this, there is this narrative of like, if I’m shining and I’m looking after me and I’m thriving. We know cognitively that if we’re thriving, we do better work. We can take care of ourselves and it is sustainable. And the alternative is something unsustainable, we know that. But it feels like to prioritize ourselves, it feels like someone else will lose. And it’s just the codependent battlecry. And this conditioning that’s in our culture, but also the conditioning we received at graduate school. I found it was like talking out of two sides of the mouth. So on the one side, it was like: you are not responsible for people, that’s disempowering. And on the other side of the mouth: you’re really liable, and if someone dies, like I’m taking it all the way to the end, if someone dies in your care, we’ll be held responsible if you didn’t do everything. So it’s this incredible bind that I think shows up right there where they’re basically like. But I’m responsible for the feelings and well-being of this person, even though if they were to think about it, they’re like, Wait, no, I’m not. 

Linzy [00:14:22] Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Erin [00:14:23] But it gets tied into survival. And the survival, I think fears are what that’s about, and this kind of. I found myself doing it when I sort of went along in my process and had decided to pull back from client work in order to focus on just supporting therapists in various ways. I heard myself saying out loud, I’m going to break the news to my clients. 

Linzy [00:14:46] Mm hmm. Yes. 

Erin [00:14:47] And this normal statement. But it was. It was this. It was this. Like, if I go after what I want and become skilled, then it’s going to hurt somebody. And so I actually think that that’s usually the deeper layer underneath the like, I’m disempowering through my fantasy is I’m going to be bad if I charge people what I need. 

Linzy [00:15:10] Yeah. And like with that, it’s kind of like a zero-sum game. I’m not sure if that’s the right language for it, but this idea that there’s a winner and a loser. Right? And also it makes me think about scarcity as though there’s, like, not enough. So if I have more, it must mean that somebody has less. Right? And all of these, kind of silent, implicit beliefs about, I mean almost like how energy and the universe works to, like really put it out there, that there’s idea that there’s like not enough for everybody. To me, it sounds like it is interwoven, unconsciously, into all of these, you know, we have these objections come up in different ways, but ultimately there is this belief that there’s not enough for all of us. We can’t all be okay at the same time, or we can’t all thrive at the same time. 

Erin [00:15:52] Yeah, exactly. And I think for me, when I think about the message I put out into the world with Therapist Expanded, with my podcast and my social media and all that, it is all about that mental health revolution, which I believe I have a hard time meeting anyone who is like, “Oh yeah, we need a mental health revolution”. Everybody believes that mental health could improve, the field, the system itself. But when I say “Well, but to me, mental health revolution is therapists living fully and freely”. Because we move ourselves further, we get well. We then, it takes our clients so much further. It’s fascinating what happens when we truly go for it. Yeah, we don’t have to say anything. The exchange with our clients changes. And that means we are less likely to work in broken systems when we really start taking care of ourselves. Less likely to accept insurance that we don’t want to accept. And the list goes on. And what happens is we uplevel ourselves and it changes the field in micro ways which turn into macro ways. 

Linzy [00:16:51] Hmmmm, I just had this fantasy of like therapist uprising and like just pushing insurance companies to pay more because I was also at the American Counseling Association. They had a conference in Toronto on Friday, so we went to check it out and it was like very interesting. I felt like I was going to America, but I was in Canada, because of the conversations that were happening and the folks that were there and the vibe. But a lot of people were talking a lot about reaching marginalized communities, you know, lifting people up, addressing all these gaps in care. And like all these things are really real. And sometimes I think that we only end up having to dissociate from these things in order to take care of ourselves where we’re like “but I can’t fix that, so I have to focus on me”. But when you say that, I’m like, right, But the next step is that if therapists were just unwilling to work for exploitive fees, insurance companies would have to change. 

Erin [00:17:38] Bingo, Mike. Drop of a century right there. They would because people wouldn’t accept it. The other thing is the beauty for me, and I’ll explain what I mean by Thrive Fee because it explains this. Social justice gets woven in there when we look even before insurance companies, we’re talking about the earlier conditioning. When I take on interns at our group practice, when we take them on, we find literally a workaround to pay them. We actually have to do a workaround so that we can pay them, so that their universities do not come down on them. That is insanity. Interns should not be slave labor. So that mindset of how we start having trouble really setting fees, for example, or doing certain things, remember, we were conditioned in that we were expected to work for free. Right there that excludes people who do not have as much financial means from entering this field. 

Linzy [00:18:33] Mm hmm. 

Erin [00:18:34] Because if you don’t have enough to work for free and to pay for your schooling, then you can’t even enter this field. So, that also, I believe, needs to change. But that’s an aside. So we’ll come back to that. Yeah, we were working for free and then we accept lower insurance rates perhaps. Yeah. And you were right, when we stop doing that, something changes. So when I talk about setting a Thrive Fee to put it into the most basic terms, the first thing I suggest people do is write out what you need per month on average to cover your basic needs. And basic needs will mean something a little different to everyone. But I’m going to just leave it there. Then the next thing you do is, this is not a financial numbers game yet, you write out what you need to thrive. Do you need to save for retirement? Do you need five vacations a year? I mean, no one can tell you what you need to thrive, you know. Do you need five massages a month? Whatever it is? Do you need money put away for when your kids get sick and write that all out, then apply a financial amount to it and try not to play a game. Try to be legit here, right? It’s really compelling to start fudging the numbers at this point. Try not to, make it real. Get a monthly amount then that will be what you need to take home. Once you average that out per month. For many people, it’s a little shocking but then you work out how many hours can you work in a week where you’re still thriving. 

Linzy [00:19:54] Yeah. 

Erin [00:19:55] So we’re talking Thrive again don’t watch the numbers. 

Linzy [00:19:57] Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Erin [00:19:58] Legit. Can you work? Be real with yourself. This is the fun part, although it’s a little scary at this point. Then you’re taking what you need to take home and dividing it by the hours you will work. Taking into account that there are weeks you won’t be working, average in the middle. Here’s where you want to then bring in an accountant if you need some help, which is then on top of that you need to look at what are you putting away for taxes? 

Linzy [00:20:20] Yes. 

Erin [00:20:20] People talk about a different percentage based on where you are. What are your general expenses in your business? You need to look at that. Then you’re going to get a realistic amount of money and you’re going to divide what you need in a month by how many hours you’re going to work, and then you’re going to prepare for that. You might be pants-scrappingly scared. And that all those those four things I talked about will start to come in rapidly. So I’ve done this with a number of people now and myself, and those four things come back in. I can’t charge that, I’m not worthy, so different things might come in. So then you get your number and then you may have your reaction and you’ll start to hear your thinking. Go back to “But only if I have more trainings, I could I charge that”. “I don’t know if other people can charge that”. And people will pay. You’re armed with the knowledge that that’s going to come up, but that’s when you decide also in this calculation of: are you going to give back in some way, so will you have some pro bono thought? Will you have some sliding fee or will those be the spots that you actually accept that really low insurance for them? Then the rest you work out, it’s probably going to be somewhat private pay. 

Linzy [00:21:29] Yeah. 

Erin [00:21:30] Where people often feel confused about value is they’re like, “But what about my market?”. And here’s what I like to say that’s a little controversial: in our current world, in our current context, look at what you need to thrive first, because anything other than that will start to become an issue soon. Then figure out your market. Honestly, your local market probably would bear a higher cost than you’d think in the fantasy. But also the world can be your oyster on some level. But for Americans, I’m thinking of our American friends, some of them have constraints around the states. But your socioeconomic pocket does not denote where everyone is at, virtually, in your entire state. So, the Thrive Fee to me comes first and then you start working out your market and it’s amazing what you can do. But most people’s market actually seems to be able to bear it in their local area, turns out. But it’s built into this, we don’t have to not serve the underprivileged. We just have to make sure we’re not doing it from a broken-down place. 

Linzy [00:22:34] Yeah, well, and, you know, it makes me think about another word that has not come up today, but now comes to mind is, is martyrdom. Right? Like, I think we, we can really deeply identify with the folks that we serve. And I do think that there can actually be this belief that we should also be suffering. Right? That like, we should kind of be in it with them. And this is something that I’ve noticed and this is one of the reasons actually that I stopped doing complex trauma work is, I think you do become kind of mired in your niche. And it becomes, I think, it can really start to distort your worldview. That you forget that there’s like all these people for whom complex trauma is not an issue or for whom eating disorders are not an issue. Right. And like but we get so into like our world and we kind of over-identify with clients. Or commonly we’re in our niche because we have experienced or are experiencing the same things that our clients are experiencing. Right? So we’re kind of like sitting in the muck, with them. And I think there can be a kind of a badge of honor that we can wear sometimes of being in the muck and like struggling and that life is of struggle. But like that is vicarious trauma or that is actually your trauma that you need to be working out with your own therapist, not just like colluding in with, you know, with your clients that things don’t get better. And I do think about that dynamic, too, of like how sometimes we are kind of repeating or keeping ourselves stuck in our own healing work by setting up practices where we are exhausted, start to feel resentful, feel used, like maybe feel all the things that we felt our whole life. How there can be other complexity to that dynamic too. 

Erin [00:24:09] 100%. For me, the blanket of conditioning, it has a lot more nuance. Which that, that’s what we’re talking about, our personal conditioning then that’s how that compounds with our professional conditioning that often says, “Oh, you were always a pleaser and people always valued how you looked after their needs and not yours”. I mean, that helped you survive with all that amazing empathy that you have, kept you safe. There are a lot of us entering this field, myself included, who use our empathic gifts, who use our ability to please and smooth social situations and be really liked and maybe martyrs and codepending in order to survive as children. Absolutely. Our client is often us at some point in our life, of course, and so we can get so mired down. Absolutely. This week for my email list, I wrote this email and it was about how the most cherished lies within ourselves, we will fight to keep. And when we talk about therapist empowerment, therapist fulfillment, it’s all of these things people want to shout from the rooftops at first of like, “No, but I have to do what I’m doing. I can’t. What about all of my poor clients? Or what about?”. But it’s amazing because it doesn’t take long or a savvy bunch to realize, “Wait, is that an empowerment?”. But at first we have to come out of the gate with our most cherished lies and the idea of giving them up, the idea of realizing we are stuck in the muck and that’s not really helping us or the client. The idea of us only taking clients as far as we’ve gone, that’s all we never do. Yes. So at first therapists often fight this. I’ve seen it many times. There’s like a, they come out of the gate like, but what about, and it’s what you’re talking about the vicarious trauma, the burnout stuff, our own history, who we’ve been surrounded by. And then luckily therapists can often go, “Oh yeah, that’s my stuff”, or “That’s their stuff influencing me”. 

Linzy [00:26:14] Yes, I love that point too, of, we can only take our clients as far as we’ve gone. And I certainly felt and experienced that, you know, in my years doing therapy as I moved forward in my own life. Like you just have so much more that you can draw on when you’re doing work with people. It’s kind of like your sense of possibilities has expanded and therefore your sense of possibilities for your clients also expands. But until you actually step into that space yourself, you can’t authentically help anybody else get into that space. 

Erin [00:26:44] Yeah, it’s not even available psychically. I’ve seen this with training interns. I will ask a question of like, that was really an interesting intevention. Yeah, I wonder why they said this, and you didn’t, you didn’t go into that area and they’re like, “Ah, it didn’t even register for me”. 

Linzy [00:26:59] Like they didn’t even hear it. 

Erin [00:27:00] Yeah, it’s not available. And then when I dig a little deeper, sometimes they’ll be like, “Yeah, actually that’s an issue for me. I couldn’t touch it. I couldn’t go there. It isn’t something I can go in myself or feel”. So all of this happened unconsciously, it was just a closed door. 

Linzy [00:27:17] Yeah, a fraction of a second. Yeah. And I mean, I think about that obviously, with money. And, you know, when we have all this closeness around money and where we’re pegging our work to our sense of self-worth or value and all of these things that we’re talking about, it also means that we’re we’re missing opportunities for financial conversations with clients. Like I mean, therapists are terrified often to talk with their clients about money, and that shows up in fee settings. That’s when we actually have to do it, right? But like I found too, when I started doing this work, back when I had my clinical practice, suddenly I started being able to have financial conversations with my clients, which before I might have, just like again, it might have just glossed right by me. But then I was like “Oh no, we could actually like look at your bank statements together if you want, and like, be present with what’s happening”. And suddenly I had this intervention available to me that wasn’t available before I started really expanding myself into this space. So I also think about that financially, like there’s just this black box that happens when we have all this stuff around money. We also cannot help our clients at all with their stuff around money. 

Erin [00:28:15] I think about this episode I did my podcast about asking clients about their sex life, but I think even harder it’s asking clients about their financial life. And I think that’s another place where this like, “I’m doing something wrong” can come up for a therapist because if then we ask if the client says they have financial issues. And it’s like, “Oh, am I my part of that?”. 

Linzy [00:28:35] Yes. 

Erin [00:28:35] Or am I helping them to better like, we can go into all that. So, yeah, sex and money are often not directly asked about but… 

[00:28:45] Which is so interesting though that we take responsibility for that. And this is not a parallel and I’m going to talk this out and maybe it won’t make sense. But when I think about it, like if you ask your client about their sex life and they’re like, actually, my husband and I haven’t have sex in three years and it’s a huge issue for us, and ta dada dada. You’re not going to feel personally responsible for that, even though you could have been helping with that in therapy, you’re not going to be like, “Oh, it’s my fault” that they haven’t had sex. Yet, if you ask them about their financial life and they’re like, “Yeah, actually we racked up this credit card debt, we don’t know what to do. I’m like, not making enough money for my life”, then we can jump to like, “Oh, I should… Am I part of their financial hardship? like, should I be offering a sliding scale?”. Like I can totally feel and remember almost from my earlier therapist days, how I could have spiraled into that spot. And it’s so interesting that we take, like we have this over responsibility in that space, and yet logically we would know that we’re not responsible for like their sex life or their ability to do art or all these other aspects of their life. 

Erin [00:29:44] So it’s deeply conditioned into us that fantasy we were talking about earlier. But why do we look at clients like they’re broke and all these different things? I really believe that that was something we were taught. Is that, for me, the biggest change here or the biggest thing I think is an asset, and I don’t know where it came from and I’m so fricking grateful, is that I resisted looking at human beings as flawed or broken or diagnosable or any of that from the beginning. I did a Masters in the States where my counterparts in the states they diagnosed, and here in Canada, as a psychotherapist, we don’t, right? There I was trying to diagnose, a lot of abnormal psych. It was a much larger focus. But the whole time I was like, okay, to me and this might be controversial, but the DSM is just the myriad symptoms of how trauma and attachment distress play out. To me they’re not, I can’t look at a person like that. Because what I see is the sun that’s behind the clouds. I’m always looking for that and to show them the sun that’s behind the clouds. So I think it helped me in this way to not disempower. But I’m so very grateful for wherever that came from. However, I saw people and I look back on my childhood growing up in Parkdale, Toronto in the nineties. For anyone who knows that very difficult place to grow up as a child, very dangerous, very scary, you know, all because of a mental health crisis. They opened the doors of an inpatient psychiatric facility one day. 

Linzy [00:31:22] Just let everybody out with. 

Erin [00:31:25] Nowhere to go. And so I learned as a child like it, it was scary. But I was so grateful that I internalized the message of people who needed help but that they weren’t broken. I don’t know where that all came from, but it felt important to tell you that that has been the thing that’s helped me because all of these different things we’re talking about, I’ve experienced them too, the moments where a client says they’re struggling and I think about my fee and I’m like, okay, you aren’t here to rescue them. They will ask. Soothe yourself, love yourself. They need it.  

Linzy [00:32:00] Yes.So for folks who are listening and who are like. Okay. I want to take a little bit of this. Some of this has resonated. This has made sense. What would you suggest as like the first baby step that someone could take towards moving more into this like thrive fee space? 

Erin [00:32:16] I would say the very first step would be right down that second step I laid out, which is what do you need to thrive? And it isn’t about money at that moment. It is legitimately just about what do you need to thrive? And you can look at that in several ways. Sometimes people get sick a lot in this work. And well, you know their body and sometimes the subconscious saying like, I need more breaks. I need way more breaks. So think outside the box. And what do you need to thrive? Do you need a day? I’m going to project here, I’m going to talk about myself I guess, I need to meditate in the morning. I need time for that. That’s really important for me. So I’m not seeing a client first thing. I’m not seeing anyone first thing, right? What I need to thrive starts there, and it isn’t about, the mind will start to talk “But that’s not possible”, open up a different place in yourself, and just, just look at what you need to thrive. Whether it feels, quote unquote, logical or not. 

Erin [00:33:13] Another piece I would add is about, it’s hard for me to say all this, and I’d be remiss to not mention fulfillment. That what I focus on is fulfillment. And actually a lot of questions can be answered only from that place, I find, of knowing what would fulfill you and what will help you thrive. It’s really interesting, I have a quiz that I’d love to put in the show notes. And it’s interesting how the different ways people answer. Like some people need predictability and security, for example. They’re who I call vanilla, and they have a lot of different vanilla varieties, but that’s cool. They need a slow light, they need predictability. And so some aspects of fee setting and business building and fulfillment, they’re genuinely going to look a little different than the people who want really value creativity, freedom and independence. So that’s going to be a little different. So I recommend that for people and that actually I think might help people understand what do I need to thrive because the results of that are pretty tailored to the individual. There may be something there. 

Linzy [00:34:19] Yeah, and I love that too. And we will link to the quiz in the show notes so folks can jump over the show notes to get that quiz. I love that idea too, of identifying that we need different things. Right? Because I think that also within, you know, broader structures that we have of like capitalism, like what I find is that often when folks think about money, they think about, like luxury, right? Because like, that’s what we’re sold is like when you’re successful, you have a yacht and it’s like, in my own life, I hate boats. I don’t really like consumerism. So a yacht is not going to ever make my life happier. Like no matter how much money I have, a yacht will never be in my plans. And I use a yacht because it’s a bit like, you know, hyperbolic, but, you know, it’s really owning your own needs and what’s really going to, you know, as you say, bring fulfillment into your life. And it’s so personal. And I, I love the idea of really owning your own fulfillment because some of those things, too, like you say, you know, those voices that are going to come up, those voices often have such a lack of imagination and something like what you mentioned of like having a spot open every morning to meditate from an outside perspective anybody else can see is completely doable and you can completely set up a schedule like that. But we’re going to parts of us that get afraid. So love this suggestion of just like getting that all down and like, folks can go and grab your quiz and dig into what this means for them. That’s a great gift. Thank you, Erin, for sharing that with the audience who are listening today. 

Erin [00:35:41] My sincere pleasure. 

Linzy [00:35:42] So, Erin, if folks want to find you, connect with you. Where can they do that? 

Erin [00:35:48] Well, the quiz is kind of a choose your own adventure. And actually, part of what I suggested is that once you fill it out, it’ll give you your personal results to you, and then it’ll give you podcast episodes that are tailored like to what is going on for you. 

Linzy [00:36:03] Beautiful. 

Erin [00:36:04] So that I find is the best way, because we are a society right now that has a lot of information coming at us. So when I thought about that, I thought about like, how could I curate something that’s like, here, if you’re interested, it’s, it’s for you. So that would be my suggestion. But other people are really big podcasters. Therapist Expanded. You could just check it all out rather than waiting for it to come to you. Yeah, that’s another place as well. 

Linzy [00:36:28] Great. Awesome. So the quizz is there gateway into kind of personalized content from you or Therapist Expanded is your podcast. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Erin, for joining us today. 

Erin [00:36:39] It was a gift. Thank you. 

Linzy [00:36:53] I so appreciate my conversation with Erin today. And I also appreciate the energy and conviction that she has about this, the presence that she has around our rights to thrive as therapists and to be fulfilled and to create lives that serve us. It’s very much an embodied feeling from her, and I think so many of us would be well-served to take on even some more of this. And, you know, it’s exciting to think about how different our lives could look and how different practices could look and how different clinical work could look if more therapists really leaned into having fulfilling lives. There’s a lot of power there. So appreciate Erin coming on the podcast today. 

Linzy [00:37:36] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts & Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. Google reviews are also welcome. I got a Google Review the other day. I was like, “Oh yeah, Google reviews are also a thing”. Google reviews and Facebook reviews are also welcome. So I should mention that if you like me, are not an Apple user and so you cannot leave reviews on Apple Podcasts, which I’ve tried and could not figure it out, leaving me a review on Google just on like our profile or on our Facebook profile is also a great way to just get more eyes on the work that we do and help people know what you find helpful and what your experience with the podcast and, and the work that I do is. Thank you so much for listening today. 

Caitlin [00:00:05] One of my challenges lately had been like, after taxes, feeling like this job is really, can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy [00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with Money Skills for Therapists grad Caitlin Walsh. Caitlin is in LPC in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She specializes in working with women who have challenges with anxiety, relationships, self-esteem and, or grief. And today in our conversation, Caitlin and I got into the question of managing fear and kind of being with the fear of having made the decision to go off insurance and taking out-of-pocket clients only. So, Caitlin has made this decision a little while ago, and so now she’s in that point of like being in the decision that she’s made. And I think we can all relate with that, where you’ve made a decision and you’re like, Okay, now I’m in it. Now I have to tolerate it and manage it. And so we talked today about managing fear and what brought her to make that decision. And of course, because this is the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, we also got into the number side of really grounding in and understanding, you know, what actually needs to happen, the numbers behind what needs to happen and what the numbers mean as she actually starts to move more towards the expansive practice that she was envisioning when she made this change. Here’s my conversation with Caitlin Walsh. 

Linzy [00:02:20] So, Caitlyn, welcome to the podcast. 

Caitlin [00:02:23] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:02:24] So I appreciate you coming on to do a coaching episode with me today. So for folks listening, just to get a little bit of context, when did you finish up Money Skills for Therapists? 

Caitlin [00:02:35] I finished just a couple months ago, I think about three months ago. 

Linzy [00:02:39] Okay. Okay. And what prompted you to join Money Skills for Therapists. What brought you into the course in the first place? 

Caitlin [00:02:45] I had dropped back down to part-time when I had my second daughter. And the year after I did that, when I had to do my taxes, I had this challenge where I had a bunch of money due that I wasn’t prepared for, and I usually am pretty prepared and I thought I had done everything. And then because of some shifts with my partner’s job and then because I worked more that year and hadn’t, I guess hadn’t checked in enough with my accountant, I had like a really big tax bill and had to use my savings. And so. 

Linzy [00:03:27] Right. 

Caitlin [00:03:28] Just felt like I maybe had done something wrong or wanted more of a system to figure out, like if there were shifts and changes like that took off a bit. So yeah, that’s kind of what prompted me. 

Linzy [00:03:42] Okay. Yeah. You had, you ended up undersaving for taxes, even though, even though you thought you were doing well and are usually very on top of things because of those shifts, those changes that had happened. 

Caitlin [00:03:51] Right. And so I was just sort of frustrated with the process and just sort of thinking I needed a little bit more information and maybe a little more of like I started like a system that kind of made sense to me. 

Linzy [00:04:05] Awesome. Okay, so for our time together today for this coaching session, what would you like to focus on today? 

Caitlin [00:04:14] Well, I just made the shift from insurance panel to just private pay. Okay. And that’s been kind of a long process. I was with an insurance company that it took six months to get out of. 

Linzy [00:04:28] Oh, wow. Okay. 

Caitlin [00:04:30] I was preparing and preparing and preparing with my clients and we talked a lot about it. And so what I’m noticing now is I kept a bunch of my clients, but a lot of them have dropped from weekly or biweekly appointments down to, like, less than that. 

Linzy [00:04:48] Okay. 

Caitlin [00:04:48] And I I’m trying to stay as calm as I can about just the shifting and changing of that and needing to do more promotion and marketing and maybe that not being like my first skill set. 

Linzy [00:05:02] Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:05:05] Not my best skillset, so I’m trying. I’m doing my best. So just kind of noticing how that feels and. 

Linzy [00:05:13] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess my, my first question is, what are you noticing is happening with this transition and like, having some clients drop-down in frequency? So I’m hearing you’ve kept a lot of your clients, but they’re many. Is it many are seeing you less or some are seeing you less? Like what has happened to your numbers? 

Caitlin [00:05:28] Yeah, I’d say most, most are probably seeing me less. Like they want to stay. But, you know, they’re used to the insurance model. And so, yeah, I think that’s how they were managing that increase and was till like dropped down their sections. And then I have gotten some new, some new clients, but like less inquiries than I was used to, you know? So insurance companies are sending you quite a few. I had a really big insurance company that sent me a lot, so weekly I probably have at least a couple inquiries. And now I’d say maybe one a week or one every two weeks and not necessarily always the best fit. And so I’ve gotten some new people. I, I’ve worked super hard on my website. I also just recently now I had been referred to a person who does SEO, and she had to wait to work with them. And so just now they’re working on it. So I do think that, that will help. 

Linzy [00:06:23] Mm hmm. 

Caitlin [00:06:24] I do feel like I’ve put a lot of effort into the spaces that I can. 

Linzy [00:06:28] Yeah. Like, I’m hearing you definitely have been taking action around it and trying different solutions. 

Caitlin [00:06:33] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:34] So I am curious then, Caitlin, like, first of all, what’s been hardest about this transition for you or what is hardest I guess is actually probably more important. What is hardest? 

Caitlin [00:06:43] Yeah, I think just the drop in clients, like so I’m probably closer to 16, 12 to 16 a week and I’ve been closer probably to 8 to 10. 

Linzy [00:06:55] Right now you’re getting 8 to 10. 

Caitlin [00:06:57] Okay, So just holding. 

Linzy [00:07:00] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:07:00] Like reminding myself that like, it’ll be all right and it’ll get better and that I’m building. I think that for me right now has been the hardest to sort of continue to remind myself and not to feel like I made a mistake or, you know. 

Linzy [00:07:15] Yes. Ok, yeah. Cause there’s, there’s two pieces that I’m holding here. And we can, we can decide which way to go first. My first is curiosity about what that emotional experience, what’s happening for you emotionally around this transition and seeing your numbers drop? And my, my second question, of course, is financially, what’s happening with this transition? What road do you want to walk first together? 

Caitlin [00:07:35] I suppose we could do emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:07:38] So, yeah. So tell me some of the, the stories or emotions that I have been coming up with this transition. 

Caitlin [00:07:44] Yeah. Just kind of feeling. I suppose the biggest one is probably just fear. Fear, and then also, yeah, I think that’s probably the main one is, is like just fear around whether this is the right path or whether I’m going to be able to figure out how to do it. It’s a lot of it’s new. You know, I think one of the positives about being on insurance panels is you don’t really have to worry or at least I didn’t have to worry too much about getting clients. I guess that’s how they like, right? That’s the point of the benefit. 

Linzy [00:08:15] Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:08:16] So it’s just new. I am committed to like, you know, I have a niche and like, it feels really right for me and I think that’s all great. But yeah, I think it’s just a fear that like, it’s not going to work or it’s not going to go or I’m not going to have enough. 

Linzy [00:08:31] And you had said earlier to like the fear that you made a mistake, like the thought that you’ve made a mistake. Okay. Okay. So yeah, so the fear that it’s not going to get better, like you’re not going to feel okay. And how is that fear been showing up for you? What has that been looking like? 

Caitlin [00:08:45] Just kind of ruminating about it. Maybe second guessing myself at time. I don’t know, needing to like, I meditate in the morning. So, like, be solid with that or trying to knowing that that’s helpful and so trying to use my, my coping skills that I lean towards. Yeah. So trying those things, it doesn’t always, you know, I still notice just sort of this like level of anxiety about it or no nervousness about it. So just kind of holding space for that. And just as I’m, I work on my own, I don’t have that many people to like knock over like, that many people to tell me, you know, positively reinforce my decisions. And so I do have some colleagues that I occasionally see, but nobody like intimately, every day. I’ve been reaching out a little bit more to some friends like, you know, when this email about this podcast came, I thought, well, maybe that could be helpful to give me a little perspective. So trying to put myself out there a little bit differently. 

Linzy [00:09:46] Yeah, like I’m hearing part of what makes the fear harder is that you’re isolated or at least alone. Yeah, right. It’s like you and the fear, during the work day. 

Caitlin [00:09:56] Right? Right. 

Linzy [00:09:57] Which, which does make it, of course, difficult to take perspective. Like I’m hearing you identifying things that you are missing, which is colleagues to reinforce. Like, yeah, yeah, it’s like that or it was like that for me. Or like, you’re making the right move. Remember we talked about da da da da da. I’m not hearing necessarily that you have like those daily or like easy supports to access to help you stay connected with why you made this decision or help you put it in perspective. 

Caitlin [00:10:22] Yeah, right. Correct. Seek it out online a little bit. Yeah. Okay. You know, have different like Facebook groups that are focused on like therapists and things like that. And like I said, I do have colleagues that are friends of mine, so I have started out a bit. But yeah, day to day it isn’t like face to face available. 

Linzy [00:10:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am curious, your colleagues, have they made similar decisions? 

Caitlin [00:10:46] Yeah. So I do have like actually I’m supposed to meet with them this Friday. Okay. Two women who’ve done very similar things, who are a little further along in their career than me, who I can bounce ideas off of and are wonderful supports. So I do have that and I do seek it out and I am also I have some ideas about getting that in sort of adjoining industries, you know, like people who have like naturopaths or like somebody who might have a very similar sort of client base, I am sort of putting myself out there in that way. 

Linzy [00:11:16] Ok. And when you say putting stuff out there, do you mean like you’re networking with adjoining folks like, yeah, as part of your strategy? Okay. Yes. Gotcha. So I am hearing that you are, you’re managing the fear with your coping mechanisms. You, you do have positive supports who maybe you don’t connect with often, but you are going to be connecting with soon. And they’re not just like positive supports of like go Caitlin but they’re also supportive of like, I’ve been there. This is what it was like for me, this is how long it took, which is awesome. So those are all very positive things that you have in place Now. I’m curious, Caitlin, why did you make this decision to switch from insurance to out-of-pocket? 

Caitlin [00:11:50] I was getting frustrated with the way that the insurance companies were trying to sort of dictate care. I had several situations where it took up a lot of time and energy. I was needing to like, justify certain treatment or amounts of treatment. I also have small children and wanted to really make a little bit more money and felt that like the reimbursement rates that I was getting, were really, really low from certain, certain companies. And so those two things kind of put together. I wanted to just spend a little less time with the kind of bureaucracy of the insurance companies and focus on, you know, my patients and patient care and grow into maybe doing making enough that maybe I could do some other things like, I don’t know, offering a course or, you know, some sort of similar like maybe what you do. I was inspired by you and other women I’ve seen that have, that seems to me like sort of diversify their offerings, or not just like 1 to 1 therapy. Yes. And I just feel like I have a lot to offer. So it felt like a good step towards that. I was like very unclear as to what that might mean, but sort of just allowing that to be there.  

Linzy [00:13:10] Sure. It’s like you’re, you’re opening up space for possibility. Even if you don’t have a clear idea. It’s still part of what I’m hearing. There’s just like reclaiming some bandwidth. 

Caitlin [00:13:17] Yeah. You know, when you’re in the insurance model, you kind of know. I felt sort of like I was in a box right in this amount of clients, and there wasn’t much room to just do there. And at least this. It does feel really scary. But there is also a lot of movement, you know, like there’s a lot of yes, my goal is to be in fear and allow for like the other end of it, like, oh, what if it really works well? I’ll go the other way. Like, Oh gosh.

Linzy [00:13:43] Yeah, yeah. 

Caitlin [00:13:44] There’s more movement on the “Oh, it could really go well” as what you know. 

Linzy [00:13:48] Yes, absolutely. And that’s something and I’m trying to think of, you know, the right analogy for it and it’s not coming to mind. But yeah, before for you were drawing in the air, you know, this, this podcast so folks couldn’t see it but you were drawing in there a box, right? Like for you, the experience of, of the insurance work you were doing particularly felt like being in a box and boxes are limiting, but they’re also safe. 

Caitlin [00:14:08] Yeah, right. Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:14:09] You know that the insurance companies just can keep giving you people and there’s going to be this amount of session fee is where you’re capped. And if you have this many clients, life is going to look like this. You know, small can be safe. What I’m hearing is your experience now of having stepped out of the box is it’s scary and your brain can quickly go to all of the things that might not work and all the ways that the risk might not pay off. But also with that risk, there’s this possibility and, and room for expansiveness that you didn’t have in the box. 

Caitlin [00:14:36] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:14:37] With that. Like when you think about, you having made that move, you don’t strike me as impulsive as a person. That’s not the vibe I’m getting. I don’t know you super well, but, you know, and I’m hearing it took you six months to get off this one panel, right? It’s not like you were like, I’m out, and two weeks later, you know. So this has been quite a process when you think about the transition that you’ve made, like what did it take for you to make that decision? What qualities or what did it take inside of you for you to, to take that leap and step out of that safety you had? 

Caitlin [00:15:06] Yeah, I have come. I’ve realized that I’ve come to all these steps in my career where I knew I needed to shift. I would wait and have to keep reminding myself that it’s never going to feel comfortable. I think I’ll wait a little bit and want it to be comfortable until I was finally ready. And then something happens and I would, I would just do it right? Where I got a call from my professor, the first job I got that was like in private practice when I had no idea what I was doing a long time ago. It was like this opportunity and my daughter was literally two weeks old, my first daughter too.  

Linzy [00:15:50] Oh gosh. 

Caitlin [00:15:50] So I, I was mess. 

Linzy [00:15:51] Oh, yeah, Oh yeah. 

Caitlin [00:15:53] Sleeping And yes, even in that sleep-deprived state, knew I had to do it because like, it was such an opportunity. Right. But so uncomfortable. So I remember that and I just, I just kept remembering like, okay, I know I need to do this right. It’s like the next step and it’s not going to be comfortable. 

Linzy [00:16:12] Right? And what did it take for you to make that uncomfortable step or what allowed you to take that step maybe? 

Caitlin [00:16:18] One thing that happened, my mom died. And part of that, you know, it’s like the worst thing I could ever imagine happening in my life. 

Linzy [00:16:18] Absolutely yeah. 

Caitlin [00:16:18] Besides something happening to my children. 

Linzy [00:16:27] Yes. My brain also goes there immediately. Yes. 

Caitlin [00:16:29] Right. I think one of the things about that is it, it obviously gives you perspective on things in this like insane way. And so after that happened, I obviously couldn’t do it right then. Like that was like right in the middle, right before COVID and then COVID. So all of that, I was just like processing, processing, like recalibrating, trying to figure out what I was doing. And then like once I sort of feel like I came up for air. So then my daughter also was a little bit older. It wasn’t so intense. I like came up for air. And then I was like, okay, like this is never going to feel comfortable. You know, I had this perspective with my mom passing away and like, sort of had this idea of like, you got to just go for it. Like not allowing the fear to kind of drive me. Even though it still comes back. You know, I kind of like, I don’t know, talk it down or something. But I do think that, that perspective of like you only get one shot at life. And at least for me, I lead kind of heart centered, you know, even if it’s a theory or I’m not sure about it. I’m not sure what it’s going to look like, but I am sure that, like, I have to move. So, yes, I’m willing to, if something’s not working, obviously I’m willing to like then shift. So I think that perspective also, I think I used to be really concerned, much more concerned like everything being like sort of perfect. And now I’m totally okay with things being like, good enough. 

Linzy [00:18:07] Yes. Okay. Okay. So I’m curious, like telling that story, what’s happening in your body? Like what emotions go with that story for you. 

Caitlin [00:18:13] Of me, like being able to shift? 

Linzy [00:18:15] Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:18:16] I do notice more energy. And, like, I do notice I wouldn’t say excitement, but, like, there is more movement or like, you’re. 

Linzy [00:18:24] Animated. 

Caitlin [00:18:25] Yeah, more flow, like. Yeah. So I guess just more energy, a higher, maybe more positive, more like a hopeful, things like that. Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:34] Yeah. Yeah. And there’s two phrases that came to mind for me. One is something that I used to say a lot myself. I feel like when I was a teenager, I don’t know if I made it up. I probably didn’t. But it was. Life is for the living. 

Caitlin [00:18:47] Sure. 

Linzy [00:18:48] Right. Like, I think when we have perfectionistic tendencies or like, you know, when we have been in a safe space and we have to think about taking a step or taking a risk, it’s like it feels scary, but it’s like, isn’t that what life is about? Like, aren’t we supposed to be living life and, you know, talking about your mom and losing your mom, like I know for me, when I have experiences with mortality close to me, like my mind always goes to that. Like, it’s always that chance to, like, reassess your life and like, am I living the life I want? Like if that was my funeral in two weeks, would I be like, Yep, people are going to have great things to say because I’m really living my true, authentic life, whatever that means, right? So that comes to mind. But the second thing that I think of is a phrase that was an email subject line from a feminist marketer that I get emails from. Kelly Diels to give credit where credit is due, which is “Fear is rocket fuel”. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Right. And it’s making me think about your fear right now. And it’s like when we take risks and we are making big moves. Fear is part of the picture. But I do wonder how you could be framing fear or how you can be using this fear to get you where you want to go because you’ve stepped out of this box. What I’m hearing is you are 8 to 10 a week, right? You’re not you don’t have 2 clients a week. 

Caitlin [00:19:57] No, right. 

Linzy [00:19:58] You’ve retained 8 to 10 a week out of the 12 to 16. So you’re kind of like half to like three-quarters of where you were before. Maybe more than half, actually. You’re at more than a half to three-quarters of where you were before. But there’s still this gap of like where you actually want to be, which is like, which is a good question. Where do you want to be? What is the amount of sessions you’re looking for per week at this out-of-pocket rate? 

Caitlin [00:20:19] I feel really good at like 16. 

Linzy [00:20:22] Okay, So 16 is your sweet spot. 

Caitlin [00:20:24] Yeah, I would do like 16 to 18 would feel good. I tend to sort of flow with the natural dip down in summer. So in the summer I usually see closer to 12 and that’s fine. 

Linzy [00:20:37] Yeah, it is nice to be able to flow with the seasons. 

Caitlin [00:20:39] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:39] Yeah, yeah. And who wants to work in the summer when you could be at the park? Okay, So, so closer to 12 in summer. So to dig into the numbers side of this, Caitlin, because I’d love to get grounded in what numbers we’re actually talking about here. Because that also helps us understand the risk. What was your fee when you were on insurance? Like, how much were you bringing in a week with the 12 to 16 clients that you used to see on insurance? 

Caitlin [00:21:04] So it was like 120 or so. 

Linzy [00:21:07] 120. Okay. 

Caitlin [00:21:08] It’s kind of like the average. 

Linzy [00:21:09] So 120, and could we say your average was like 14 sessions a week between that 12 to 16? Is that accurate? Okay. So times 14 times 4.33. This is rough math. We know there’s the summer dips and everything, so it’s kind of like 7200 a month of revenue. Does that sound about right for your insurance practice? 

Caitlin [00:21:29] Yeah. Give or take. 

Linzy [00:21:30] Does that seem a little high or low? 

Caitlin [00:21:31] It seems a little high.  

Linzy [00:21:33] A little high? Okay. Okay. So maybe 7000 a month? 

Caitlin [00:21:35] Yeah. Yeah, maybe. 

Linzy [00:21:37] Let’s say 7000 a month. So tell me, what is your out-of-pocket rate? 

Caitlin [00:21:40] 150. 

Linzy [00:21:42] 150? Okay. 

Caitlin [00:21:42] Little bit of a range, but that’s the average. 

Linzy [00:21:44] Average is 150. Okay, So 150 then just to get a sense of where we are compared to where you were right now, you’re doing 150 and you’re seeing like nine clients a week? 

Caitlin [00:21:54] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:54] Does that sound about right? 8 to 10, we’ll say nine? 

Caitlin [00:21:57] Yeah. 9 

Linzy [00:22:00] So right now you’re at like 5800 a month. So there’s like a 1200-dollar shortfall. How many clients would it take you at 150 an hour to make up that gap? It’s a 1200-dollar gap. Can you do the math on that for me? Do you have a calculator? 

Caitlin [00:22:15] So eight. 

Linzy [00:22:17] So that’s eight sessions a month. So. How many clients would that be for you? If it’s eight sessions a month. 

Caitlin [00:22:23] Maybe four. 

Linzy [00:22:24] Okay. So four clients who are coming twice a month each, bi-weekly clients. 

Caitlin [00:22:28] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:22:29] Okay. Okay. So four clients. So if you notice that the gap we’re talking about is finding four more clients who come bi-weekly or I will enter the possibility that it could also be two weekly clients. 

Caitlin [00:22:43] Right, sure. 

Linzy [00:22:44] If you can target those folks who are like, oh, 150 an hour, pfff! My fee used to be 175 and my clients, like, couldn’t remember my fee, like it was like so unimportant to them. They were like, What is your fee? Well, 250, 100. Like it, yeah. So it could also be two weekly clients. What do you notice in your body thinking about having to get, like, either those four biweekly clients or like two more weekly clients would, would fill that gap, getting you back up to where you used to be? 

Caitlin [00:23:11] Yeah, it doesn’t seem like that. Like that big of a jump or that hard.

Linzy [00:23:16] Right. I was gonna say, like, how hard? How hard is that or how scary is that to find two or four more clients? Okay. 

Caitlin [00:23:24] Yeah. Doesn’t feel that hard.  

Linzy [00:23:27] Okay. So that’s helpful information to notice, right? Like the part of you, that’s been in fear. Is that part able to take in information that, what we’re talking about right now, just to get you where you were? I know it’s not where you ultimately want to be. But to get you back up to the status quo, we’re talking about 2 to 4 clients. Can the fear part of you, like take in that information? 

Caitlin [00:23:44] Yeah. That feels comforting or attainable. 

Linzy [00:23:47] Yeah. Okay. Comforting and attainable. Those are nice words. 

Caitlin [00:23:50] Yeah. Yeah, 

Linzy [00:23:52] Those are very doable words. In terms of where you will be like, did you pick this number based on kind of your family’s financial need? Or like, do you know where this number is going to get you once you do fill up to 16 again? 

Caitlin [00:24:03] Yeah, I worked all that out when I did your class. I also was taking into account, I did quite a bit of research on like what everybody around here, I live in the Midwest, was charging and so trying to keep it within. And then also what I was charging my clients to be able to scale up. So I did sort of take all of that into account. 

Linzy [00:24:26] Okay. Yeah. When you, when you said this, which which I love to hear, I love that there was math involved. That always makes me happy. So it’s a good grounded decision. So what I’m seeing here is like when you get up to 16 clients a month and I’m using rounded numbers here, just for simplicity. We’d be talking about like $10,000 a month revenue. Right?

Caitlin [00:24:43] That was like my, for some reasons I like that number and it just feels yeah, it felt like, okay, that’s different and like a good goal and like, yes, something to reach for and like after taxes still feels like, even though this job can be really challenging like that still is like solid paycheck. 

Linzy [00:25:02] Yes. Yes. It’s a paycheck that you’re like this, this compensates.

Caitlin [00:25:06] Okay. Yeah. But you know, I would yeah. My next goal would be like 20 grand more or something like that. So kind of leading up, feels like an attainable goal for now. That, that also makes me feel. One of my challenges lately had had been like after taxes, feeling like this job is really it can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way like, yes, I have to pay for all of my own stuff because I’m private, you know. So this can kind of eek away at like your sense of, is this worth it? 

Linzy [00:25:41] Absolutely. Yeah. And I do think, too, there is something about being well compensated for our work that also has the reverse effect. Like let’s you hold yourself higher, like have more kind of esteem of like I’m a professional. I get paid like a professional. I do work like a professional. I change lives. Like I, there’s that positive effect as well of giving yourself the appropriate raise. 

Caitlin [00:26:03] It’s like it’s not light-hearted work, right? It’s not like, you know, like. No. 

Linzy [00:26:08] Yes. No, I always thought that with this kind of work, there could be a lot of laughter. But it was in contrast to, like, all this darkness that’s also in the room with us, you know, depending on the work that you’re doing. So. Okay. So what I’m hearing then, is for you to get up to that 7000, we’re looking at 2 to 4 clients. And then for you to get up to that ten, you know, 10,000 revenue and we’re talking revenue here, not paycheck for folks listening. That 10,000 revenue, we would be looking at going up like some around six, 6 to 8 clients. That’s like that’s your level up that’s a level up amount that you’ve chosen. 

Caitlin [00:26:41] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:26:41] Right. And so when you think about that, that like that next step after this 2 to 4. 2 to 4 gets you back to baseline. The next step after that is a level-up step. How can you think about that in a way that will be motivating? Like I’m thinking of this like “fear as jet fuel” metaphor, which I don’t know if it’s like totally if that connects for you, that idea, but it’s like, how, how can we use this energy as interpret it positively or make it positive rather than let that fear spiral into all the negative, you’re going to live in a box kind of thoughts. 

Caitlin [00:27:12] Right? I guess I feel a little more ease around it when I give myself a little bit of grace and, like appropriate expectation in terms of time. And just how much time it might take. So, you know, even thinking like, can I give myself a year? Like to make all that happen and not get that worried in the second month that it isn’t happening? 

Linzy [00:27:33] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:27:35] That gives me a little bit of ease. And I mean, honestly, because of your course, I have quite a bit in savings and my tax situation for this year is much more… Like it’s set, you know, in my account. And then I have all my little like accounts for profit first and all that stuff. 

Linzy [00:27:54] Hmmm, beautiful. 

Caitlin [00:27:55] I just looked at it yesterday. And so even though like this week in particular, I have quite, quite a few less clients that I’m used to, you know, it’s like I still have all that money that I have saved. And I do have like, the backup systems. 

Linzy [00:28:09] Yes, right. 

Caitlin [00:28:10] And like, I like it that, you know, even if I do have a dip in revenue, like because of the calculators and the profit first stuff, like I would be appropriately still saving the amount of taxes. It’s not, you know, it can shift. And I, I know in my head like no, no, like I know how much to save now because I did all that backup work. 

Linzy [00:28:32] Yeah. You’ve done all that foundational work. 

Caitlin [00:28:34] Right. And so that kind of, I keep trying to remember that as well. And like, you know, that is helpful to use as, as fuel. And I, you know, just to keep sort of reassuring and reminding myself that is helpful. So yeah, so when I give myself more time frame and try to shift out of that, like, oh, this has to be working right now. Yes. 

Linzy [00:28:56] Yes, yeah. And this is like what I like to call big-picture thinking, right? Like you have, you have actually built the systems. You’ve done the work, that you actually do have stability in your practice, right? Like you have actually built out those foundations. So taxes are still there. Money is still there to get paid, like you’re still being well compensated even while making shifts. Right. You’re not writing this kind of like like knuckle biter, knuckle biter? That’s not the right, white knuckle. Don’t bite your knuckles! Nail biter, kind of like roller coaster situation, right? So you have given yourself that stability. And with stability can come expansiveness, right? Because you put those roots in. 

Caitlin [00:29:32] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:29:32] You know, to to use a tree metaphor, it’s like you’ve put roots in. You have that solidity. So now you actually have the foundation to reach and you’re reaching. Right. And I’m hearing that sometimes reaching is scary. Yeah, but I’m curious like, what else is reaching besides scary for you? 

Caitlin [00:29:49] I guess like growth and possibility and, you know, moving into the next level of my career and feeling grounded and solid in that. And competent, I guess that is one positive, and I mean this in the most humble way, but I work really hard at being a good therapist. And, you know, work really hard at staying in a good space myself in terms of my health and my mental health. And so I know that to be true as well. And so that’s also part of my foundation. So I’m I know that I’m good at my job and I’m certainly always working on, you know, things. But I do know that, like, I’m committed to it and I, I take it really seriously and, you know, so that’s not going to change. 

Linzy [00:30:34] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:30:34] Yeah. That like knowing my worth and my value is also in again, like, I don’t, I’m not like tooting my own horn, but just like I put a lot of work in and like, I can, you know, and I know that. 

Linzy [00:30:48] Mm hmm. Yes, I think you can toot your own horn, just in here. With job interviews, my dad always used to be like, “this is your chance to toot your own horn” and get to like and I’m to say the same thing in this conversation. And like, as you’re thinking about investing in yourself, right? Like, you are allowed to be connected with what you’ve accomplished and your competency and your commitment to being really good at what you do. I think that’s actually extremely important for us to be connected with and to own it. Because that makes this a very logical move that you’ve made. Yeah, in fact, I would say this is actually, you probably could have set your fee higher. You haven’t, you’re not doing something that doesn’t completely make sense actually, within the context of all the work you’ve done in your career and everything you’ve established. 

Caitlin [00:31:28] Right? Right. Yeah, I’ve thought of that too. 

Linzy [00:31:31] So that’s later. That’s later. So Caitlin, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you taking away from our conversation today? 

Caitlin [00:31:40] I think it’s helpful to just kind of ground myself in, you know, you’re always good at like, coming back to like, the numbers and like, just kind of be really grounded in like, well, you know, it’s 2 clients or 4 clients. 

Linzy [00:31:51]  Yeah, like, what are we actually talking about? 

Caitlin [00:31:53] You know, like, not that crazy. So that’s like really helpful because although I’m fine with numbers, it’s not necessarily always where I go, you know. I don’t know. It’s just like, well, what’s actually the core of it. Right? Yes. Help me get better at that or I’m not scared of it in any way. So that’s good to remember. And then also, I like that idea of fear, just how you orient towards the fear. I think the fear is really natural. And coming from like a mindfulness space, like, can I just walk a minute? Can I sit with it and can it be like the fuel? I’m not going to let it spiral me into like, I can’t do this or I’m not worth it or all that. Well, you know, the negative self-talk that I think all of us can have challenges with at times, both of those things. So using the fear as like maybe the fuel and also like just you kind of providing space or reiterating that like the time frame makes sense or like all the decisions I’ve made, you know, at least make sense to you. 

Linzy [00:32:54] Absolutely. 

Caitlin [00:32:54] And hearing that back is helpful too. 

Linzy [00:32:57] Yeah. And something that I did really notice too, as well. First of all, when you reconnected with why you made this decision, your body language really changed. 

Caitlin [00:33:04] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:33:04] You went from kind of this more like tight to like expressive arms moving, talking with your hands. So that’s one thing that I noticed. And then the second thing that I noticed is when you zoomed out your timeline, when you started talking about a year rather than now, there was also this calm that came over you. 

Caitlin [00:33:22] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:33:23] And I think that that’s really important. And maybe the timeline doesn’t have to be a year. Maybe it’s six months, maybe it’s four months, maybe it’s seven, right? But that I also noticed like this, like grounding that happened when you let yourself zoom out and didn’t have to make it something that happens immediately. Because what I’m hearing from you, at least as far as I understand, financially it doesn’t have to happen right away. It’s not as though your family’s in financial crisis and you’re trying to replace your income and your partner’s income and big medical bills. Like, you know, there are times when it really is like, “oh shit, like, right now I need to, like, make $20,000 appear”. That’s not your situation at this moment, which means you do have that space to like make those connections with colleagues, network. Find the ways to like, really find your people. And what you’re going to build over the next year will last for decades. 

Caitlin [00:34:09] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:34:10] Even if it doesn’t happen tomorrow, you’re building something that is, has longevity. 

Caitlin [00:34:15] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:34:15] As you figure each thing out. 

Caitlin [00:34:16] Right? Exactly. 

Linzy [00:34:18] So, Caitlin, what is your next step coming out of our conversation today? 

Caitlin [00:34:22] I think I’m going to try to just keep all of those things in mind and remember the numbers and just keep working on my networking and keep working on all the things I have kind of in play. I’m doing little social media stuff, which is not my strong suit. 

Linzy [00:34:42] Same here. Same here. 

Caitlin [00:34:43] Now, you know, I’m just kind of trying to remember my, my confidence and, and that coming from me and not just like the amount of clients that I have right now. Wonderful. 

Linzy [00:34:55] Thank you for coming on the podcast today. 

Caitlin [00:34:56] Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate your help and just the opportunity. 

Linzy [00:35:13] In the conversation with Caitlin, the fear obviously was a big part of it at the beginning and something that I didn’t say during the recording, but I did say to Caitlin afterwards as we chatted and finished up our time together is that it is scary, like it is scary to do these things. It is scary to take a risk on yourself. It is scary to step out of something that is safe and known into something that is unknown. As we talked about that metaphor of stepping outside of the box, you know, the box, you know, in some, for some folks, that box is being uninsurance or it’s working in a certain place or even seeing a certain type of client. That is something that we know and it’s something that at a certain point becomes consistent and reliable. But when we outgrow those boxes and when for whatever reason, we decide to step outside of it, whether that’s financial, whether it’s emotional, whether it’s we need a change that is scary. Right? And so I don’t think the fear goes away. And I think the fear is, is healthy. And obviously the fears are our nervous system, you know, trying to keep us safe. But it’s really learning how to manage and be with that fear that makes all the difference. We don’t want to make decisions driven out of fear. That’s not wise. And so it’s you know, as we’re talking with Caitlin, how can you shift that experience of fear to something else? Right? If if fear is fuel, then fear can also become excitement. It can be motivation. And excitement and motivation can move us into making moves that will really make a difference. And in Caitlin’s case, moves like reaching out to people, networking, putting herself out there that will help her right clients find her. Those moves are what’s going to make all the difference. And we can use that energy to make those strategic moves. Once we start moving out of kind of the, the scary stories that fear wants to tell us and just realize like, yeah, I’m energized. I’m like doing something here and I’m going to make the moves I need to make to make this decision a good one and to make it pay off. So I’m very excited for Caitlin and what’s coming in her future. Having taken this step in her practice. 

Linzy [00:37:15] You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts. You’re also welcome to jump over to Google, if, like me, you were not an Apple user or our Facebook page to leave a review of your experience with the podcast, what you like about it, you can share about what your favorite episode or conversation was. It’s a great way for other therapists who would benefit from these conversations to find us. Thanks for listening today.

Kelley [00:00:02] The reason that I got into this business was to have more time with my family. And so in order to do that, I had to streamline my process much more and I needed a platform that was much more automated. I needed a team that could run my website without me. And so I decided to make that investment. And it was all behind the scenes. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?” I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is Kelley Stevens. Kelley Stevens is the owner, the mastermind behind Private Practice Pro. I first came across Kelley on Instagram, which will feature heavily in our conversation because she really has built her business on Instagram. And I saw her on Instagram. She had this like big following and I was like, “Who is this?” like and so the first time I talked to her, I asked her, Where did you come from? Who have you worked with? Like, who did you learn from? And she was kind of like, I don’t know, I kind of came out of nowhere. So Kelley has in the last couple of years, three years, two years, really gotten a lot of traction on Instagram with her content as the Private Practice Pro, where she teaches therapists how to start up their private practices. She describes in one course she described to me off mic is really about taking people from the idea, the dream of starting a practice until that first session that they have. And today, Kelley and I get into the topic of investing and taking risks in your business. If you’re listening and you’re either starting off in private practice or you already have a private practice and you’re thinking about expanding beyond it. My conversation with Kelly today we get into the emotional experience of making big and financial investments how to think about financial investments when it’s the right time to make financial investments and the things that she spent money on her business versus what I spent money on in my business, which are actually quite different things and why we’ve made those decisions for ourselves. So this is a good episode to listen to if you find yourself kind of wondering when to spend money or finding it hard to spend money, if you have a hard time spending money on your business, this is going to be a good episode to get you thinking about what is really worth spending money on for you and what is not. Here’s my conversation with Kelley Stevens. 

[00:02:54] So, Kelley, welcome back to the podcast. 

Kelley [00:02:56] Thank you for having me. It’s so nice to be back. I feel like we just were together.

Linzy [00:03:03] It was a little while ago. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:03:05] Time is flying. And I also think, you know, things have evolved and there’s been a lot of growth for you, I think, since we last chatted as well, which is part of what we’re going to chat about today. 

Kelley [00:03:16] Yeah, I’m excited. 

Linzy [00:03:18] Yeah. So today we were going to have a chat about kind of like managing risk and growth. So can you just tell folks just to give folks a sense who are listening of your own experience, what has been like your business trajectory or growth for this business that you’re in now that we’re talking about now? 

Kelley [00:03:35] Okay. So first of all, I feel like, you know, in podcast land, it’s like you could go so depth there, but I’m just going to give you the kind of overview. Okay. I run a company now called Private Practice Pro, and we teach therapists how to open private practices through online resources. So that’s like online courses, primarily workbooks, live workshops, mini courses, everything online, right? We don’t have any physical products and I don’t currently do any one on one coaching. I do some, but I’m not taking anyone right now. So it’s primarily all online resources. So when I decided to launch this business, it was really different. I had launched my own private practice. I moved it to three different cities because of my husband’s job, and I had experience doing marketing for a large treatment center. So I’d always been kind of that 1 to 1 client model. And I thought, well, why not try to create online resources? And with that, that required me to take on some risk. So I think when you and I were talking, you’re like, let’s talk about risk and especially risk as it comes to money. You know, I think it’s one of those things like people don’t want to, you know, everyone wants to open online course or an online platform, but no one wants to be like, well, here’s how much money, you know. 

Linzy [00:04:49] Yes! 

Kelley [00:04:50] Let’s talk about the money, because that’s what your podcast is. 

Linzy [00:04:52] Yes, this Is what the podcast is about.  Yes. So the money piece, then, so what I’m hearing is like you, you had not just like had a private practice, but kind of had a private practice three times, you know, like opening in three different cities. So you have a lot of experience with starting up a private practice. Yeah, I’m curious. Like first off, what has been the difference in the let’s talk about like the emotional experience of kind of the money of private practice and starting in private practices versus this like scaled online offer that you have helping therapists with their private practices? 

Kelley [00:05:24] That’s a good question. So, yes, I do. So I’ve essentially opened three different private practices, even though they functioned under the same business entity. You know, it was essentially like starting over because of my husband’s job. We had to move. I wouldn’t have done it otherwise. And this was prior to COVID and prior to telehealth being so predominant. The third move that I did, I saw more virtual people, but there’s like not more virtual people, like more virtual appointments. 

Kelley [00:05:53] More people virtually. Yes. 

Kelley [00:05:54] Yeah, exactly. But prior to that, it was like starting a whole new client base of in-person clients. And then prior to that, I also did the marketing for a large private practice. There were about 12 of us. Yeah, that was a kind of its own experience because even though we functioned as a group, it was a group practice owned by owners. Everyone still needed to bring in their own clients. So, you know, I think I got to see really firsthand different personality types and bringing in different types of clients and how people could market themselves as introverts and as extroverts. And, you know, there’s no one way to do it. But what I always think of private practice, and this is what I tell a lot of the people I work with as I help them over their private practices is there’s a lot less startup than if you were going to say like open a McDonald’s, for example, or. 

Kelley [00:06:42] I mean, McDonald’s has a huge startup clause, right? What do they say? It’s like an average million to sort of McDonald’s or… 

Linzy [00:06:47] Sure, I believe it. 

Kelley [00:06:48] Yeah. But for private practice, you know, I think the beauty of our job is like, first of all, nowadays you could totally start just telehealth or you could start with an office too. And it’s not like you’re buying tons of dental equipment or tons of products or warehousing a ton of stuff. I mean, it’s really you are the product and you have your office, you have some malpractice insurance, you need a billing system and things, but the actual startup cost is very feasible without going in saying like getting a loan or a line of credit. You know, you’re not necessarily going to go into debt by opening a private practice. Some people may choose to, but you don’t have to. Whereas when I decided to open an online platform, I very quickly realized that there was going to be some startup cost. And what I feel like any time you have startup costs, you say to yourself, okay, I need X amount of money to do this. And then it’s like, now I need X amount of time to get to sell enough to be out of debt. And then, I’m going to start making money! Whereas in private practice you might be profitable in your first month. You might not be, but potentially I think the get out of debt, you know, card is quicker unless you have start-up money to begin with, you know. 

Linzy [00:08:09] Yes. Because what I’m hearing is, you know, your experience is that that online, online platform, had a lot more expenses associated. So I’m curious for you like what have some of those expenses been. Yeah. The money you had to put in before you could even start selling the thing to make your money back. 

Kelley [00:08:26] So, okay, so I, I thought it would be really helpful just to break down the actual numbers. Because I really wish when I had started out, actually somebody did do this for me, but I talked to plenty of people that were like, You’re going to need some money, right? 

Linzy [00:08:39] Some money… 

Kelley [00:08:39] Okay, but like, how much? You know? So my original estimate when I said to myself, okay, I’m going to create one online course, that’s it, and I’m going to market it through Instagram and a website. My original estimate when I first started was 20,000 U.S. dollars. I ended up spending about 40, but I think I could have done it for 20 had I not trained to do it so quickly. 

Linzy [00:09:09] Right? So yeah. 

Kelley [00:09:11] So when it comes to online business, there are things where you can choose to DIY or you can choose to outsource. So for example, filming an online course, right? You might choose to film your first online course on Zoom and use PowerPoint slides, or you might hire a professional video team and have them film it. There’s no one right way to do that, right? I’ve taken some online courses that are filmed on Zoom and PowerPoint and they’re great, honestly, maybe better than some of the ones I’ve seen that are professionally shot because sure, there’s less nervousness about a new online course right now from home. And I’ve had courses professionally shot and I think the one that I’m shooting from home is better. But for example, when I shot my first online course, I did choose to have it professionally shot and that alone cost me $9,000 and it turned out beautiful. And I wanted that first kind of flags to turn out beautifully. But so you’re going to make choices along the way. You know, another choice would be, am I going to hire somebody to make a professional website or a professional kind of e-commerce site, or am I going to do it on my own? Certainly it’s possible to do it on your own. Again, I chose to hire somebody. I had like a quick timeline and very quickly realized that I couldn’t do that on my own in the timeline that I wanted to do it, so I chose to invest in having somebody build me a really professional website. 

Kelley [00:10:36] So by the time that I launched my first course, I had spent about 40,000 and I was lucky enough that, you know, I have a private practice and I was doing well in my private practice, so I subsidized my own. I didn’t have to go out and get a loan. But that being said, I have a family, I have a mortgage, I have a child. And so my husband and I kind of sat down and I said, okay, you know, realistically I could float 20, but then I ended up floating 40. And it was like, I really need to pay this 40 back to us as a family within a year. And why I went and decided to do it so quickly, right? Because I was like, we can’t float it more than that. You know, we have other expenses in our life that we had to pay for. But that was a huge motivator. That was like, well, even if nothing works out, even if this platform does not work, I at the minimum have to make 40,000 in this next year. Doing this, even if I’m not profitable, which I did it. I mean, that happened really quickly. So … 

Linzy [00:11:38] Yes. Yeah, you did pay back. 

Kelley [00:11:39] I did pay back. And it was a fun day, you know. 

Linzy [00:11:41] Yeah. When you crossed that threshold. 

Kelley [00:11:43] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:44] I mean, as you’re saying this, there’s a few things that stick out to me. First of all, I need to just say this is the nerdy money part of me, but like, I so appreciate the clarity that you had on your numbers and like, you and your husband sitting down and talking about it and agreeing on your timeline and like, because I think that that makes it very tangible, too, in terms of setting goals, right? Where it’s like the tangibility of it, I think is really motivating because what I see a lot of folks do when they’re starting either their private practice or their second thing, their launch or their scaled offer, their their course they want to build in the side, is when you don’t have clarity on those numbers, there’s just kind of this ambiguous, like “I’m spending a lot” and like “Ugh,am I going to make it back” in like, “Oh, do I have more to spend”? And that ends up making it this very emotional kind of blurry experience. And what I’m hearing that you did is you were very clear, like, this is what we can afford. Okay? I went beyond that. And by going beyond that, this is exactly the timeline that we need because this is what we can afford in terms of carrying this debt. Just like very clear, clear-minded in your relationship to these amounts. 

Kelley [00:12:46] Yeah. I mean, it really had to be that way. I think that tends to be how I function financially anyway. You know, I want to know. Exactly. You know how long I have to pay it back, how much it’s going to cost me. And I agree with you. And I think that I’ve seen many entrepreneurs and therapists in particular kind of continue to take on like, oh, I need this, and then I need that. And there were certainly things even within the 40,000 that I would have liked to do right away where I said, no, this is our hard and fast number. We’re not going to do that right now. That’s going to take another year. I have to be profitable before I’m willing to put more money in. 

Linzy [00:13:25] Yes, And that’s exactly the second thing that stuck out to me is this time-money equation. Right. And I think this is a decision that as we’re growing businesses, we’re always making these decisions. Whether or not we’re naming them as such as it’s like, for instance, I could take this course and learn how to do X, Y, Z from somebody who lives and breathes this topic, but it’s going to cost me $1,000 or $750. Or I could take the time to try to like learned it and maybe read some books and like talk to people and kind of learn this skill more organically. I won’t have spent $1,000, but it might take me like nine months or a year or even two years to really feel like I, like hammer down these skills, right? And I think that there’s endless things that we could pay people to do for us and to teach us. And any of those things, we could also try to figure out on our own or to do ourselves. And what I think I’m hearing with you, it is a lot of ways there was a priority on making it happen faster. So you made these investments to accelerate the process for yourself? 

Kelley [00:14:24] Yeah, definitely. And and the reason I know that to be true is now, you know, I’m a few years into this thing and I’m about to launch another two courses. And certainly since that initial course, I’ve launched a lot of other things. So workbooks and ebooks and mini courses and all sorts of other stuff. So now I’ve done it a few times and for the quality of product I like to put out, I know I can get out the door with 10,000 or below. Now take into account my first time I went through it. I spent 40. There were many reasons why that was. One, it was my first time one, you know, and I don’t know that I would have done anything differently. Now because I’ve done it a few times, there’s things I don’t have to outsource. There’s systems that I know how to use. There’s programs I now know how to use, so I don’t have to pay someone to teach me how to do it in the same way. That’s number one. 

Kelley [00:15:12] And then number two, I’ve given myself more time. You know, I think the first time that I launched a course, I thought from this time I started filming it until the time I launched it, I gave myself three months. This time I gave myself a year. So I’m a little smarter, you know? I’m like, No, there’s no way I’m going to do this in three months again, you know? And I think the second part to that is that I’m a mom. And so there’s always this equation of when will I have more childcare, when will I not? I’m also, I’ve told Linzy, I’m also pregnant, so it’s like I have to time out all of that. And so I think any time you balance motherhood or parenthood with business, there is that relationship too of like how much childcare do I have? I’m paying for that. How much time do I have before I’ll have another child or not or, or whatever. And all that time and money go together, you know, with the childcare element too. 

Linzy [00:16:02] So yeah, there’s an equation there I think that’s constantly kind of evolving. And so for you then, Kelley, like having made a larger investment because of you wanted things to happen faster, you wanted things to be a certain way, so you invested quite a bit in your first course. How did you relate to that investment emotionally? Like what emotions went with that for you? 

Kelley [00:16:23] You know, it was so scary and depressed. Like to me, $40,000 is not a little bit of money. That was how much I spent on my MFT degree, my master’s degree, which nowadays sounds like not a lot of student debt, you know, I mean, programs are really expensive, but back when I went to school was that was exactly how much I took out as a loan for my master’s degree. And I think I took like 39,500 or something and had a full time job during that time. So I was able to float some of it. But so to me, thinking about the number of 40,000 and just in terms of our own family and our, you know, it was a lot of money and it required just so much belief in myself. I had to have some inclination that I knew I’d be able to, at the minimum, pay it back. And I did, you know, I knew I had a lot of experience in the area that I teach in. I went ahead and just like done it once by myself and then said, okay, well now people replicate how I do it. I had done it for other companies. I’d done some consulting work for other companies. So I taught into a master’s program. So I knew I knew how to teach it, and I knew I was a good teacher. So I knew enough to say to myself, like, okay, I know I can think of myself as long as I suspend the fear long enough. As I got toward the launch, on my first launch day, I made no sales, not one. And now we have like 600 people or something in that original course. But on day one, I sold no courses and I remember thinking, God, it was like a horrible day. It makes you want to cry. I remember thinking, like, at that point, when I launched my course, I had about 11,000 Instagram followers, and I remember thinking “At least a thousand are going to buy this course”. Please. 

Kelley [00:18:16] I really luckily had some really wonderful mentors and other therapist friends in the online space that said to me they were like, Kelly, I think a conservative number would be 1% of your audience in the first year. And I was like, “No way, really 1%”, you know? But now at this point, my audience is about 45,000 and we’ve done about 600 courses in that original course. So we’re a little above 1%, but not much. 

Linzy [00:18:46] Yeah, not much. 

Kelley [00:18:46] A really good estimate. And now when I launch products and I make investments into different products, I use that number and I say, okay, if we were just going to sell 1%, to 1% of this audience, how much do I think, can I afford to spend on the creation of the product? 

Linzy [00:19:04] Right. Yeah, I’m with you for that equation. Like when you think about how much to spend on investing in something, thinking about the 1% of your audience, how much money are you trying to make above the investment to like, like what makes it worth it for you? Because it’s not just paying back the the cost of it, but also how much do you want to see yourself make to be like that was worth it. 

Kelley [00:19:23] Oh, 100%. Yeah. I’m not in this to like, make no money. Right? So yeah, in that initial year I thought like, okay, I want to like break a 100 in revenue, so I want to do 40,000 in debt, you know, get rid of that 40,000 debt and then take home a 100. Which I did in that first year. So that was like I launched like, like what, say January, I launched the course in March, and then I had to get to December. You know, So really in terms of billing time, that’s more like seven or eight months, you know. But yeah, you have to do all of that because it’s not just that you can get out of debt, right? I’m a mom, I have a mortgage, I have kids to put through preschool, which is like basically the cost of my mortgage. Like to break even in life is not the same thing as breaking even in just in terms of my cost. Yeah. So and then also I was I’m running, you know, I’ve run a private practice. I had to take time away from my other business to launch this business. And certainly for many weeks and months there was a floating, you know, it was a little crazy for a while. It wasn’t like super balanced for a long time. Now it’s a lot better. My schedule is better than it even was in private practice. You know, when seeing full-time 1 to 1 clients but it took a minute to get there. 

Linzy [00:20:37] Yeah. And you know what? I’m the way that I think about this and talk about this sometimes with students in Money Skills For Therapists is like, it’s an investment period, right? So it’s like, how do you manage an investment period emotionally? And also in terms of making those decisions. Right. And something that I think is important as we’re thinking about your course and like the money you invested, you did just say you had an Instagram audience of 11,000 people. That’s also a good reason to bet on yourself, right? Like, I think if we’re thinking strategically, it’s like, yes, mindset wise, we need to believe in ourselves. We need to commit, you know, be like, I’m going to do what it takes. But also, you had already taken strategic action beforehand that showed you like you already had a brand. 

Kelley [00:21:15] Yeah. And I should say that and that you’re so right. Linzy like, I think that was the best piece of advice I ever got. I had a few friends that were in the mom space, the mom influencer space who had launched like very successful courses way, you know, had just ridiculous audience sizes. And multiple people told me, well, first somebody told me you shouldn’t launch until you have 5000 followers. And I remember thinking like when I first opened my Instagram account, like, how am I going to get 5000 followers? I mean, like, like I have 2. You know? And I don’t necessarily know that that’s true, right? I think depending on the product, especially if you have a high touch consulting, I don’t think it has to be a certain number. But I knew that if I was going to take the risk, I needed some proof of concept. And for me I decided that that proof of concept was going to be an Instagram audience. And so I didn’t even start writing the course, building the course, trying to sell to my audience until I actually was at 10,000. Had I not reached 10,000, I would have waited a few months to launch. 

Linzy [00:22:26] Right, okay  

Kelley [00:22:29] At that time, part of the appeal of 10,000 and this is no longer the case on Instagram is you got that swipe up feature, you know. 

Linzy [00:22:36] Oh yeah, I remember that. 

Kelley [00:22:37] Like swipe up for this, you don’t get that anymore. So at the time I was like, Oh, I’m not going to launch until I have that feature. And then it became more so the fact that I felt like the more of a following I built, the more I knew what the audience I was actually going to sell to needed. The products that I might have designed at two followers was going to be really different than the product design at 5000. 10,000, now at 40 something thousand. I’m much more clear on what my audience wants. So we’re going to redo the course and do a lot more. And then everyone who’s already bought it will get the same updated version again, you know, included. You know, I think when therapists come to me and they say, you know, I really want to launch this online course, but I haven’t built a following yet. You know, you can build a following and not spend any money doing it. Instagram is free, you know. And so I always tell people, like, spend time really getting to know the people you’re going to sell a product to and nobody. And it also, you know, I think shows that you’re willing to stick with it because if you’re… 

Linzy [00:23:41] Yes. 

Kelley [00:23:43] … posting Reels, posting what whether it’s Instagram or TikTok or a podcast, you realize there’s like a lot of just background work that you’re not getting paid for. So if you really want to be doing that and serving the people that you want to sell to, one day you’ll continue doing it and you’ll work at building an audience prior. If you’re not willing to put in that time to build an audience, then and you spend $40,000 to launch a course and you get crickets. I mean, I had a big audience and I got crickets on day one. Now the launch went way better later on. What if I had no followers? Like, I can’t imagine. And I’ve seen people do that where they’ve launched a course and they’re like, Why isn’t anyone buying this? And then I’ll say well, who is going to buy? 

Linzy [00:24:26]  Yeah, who is it for? And, you know, yeah. And I, you know, that is, you know, for folks listening, I will also say Instagram is one way to do that. You, Kelley, are amazing on Instagram. You’ve built a huge audience. How what’s your what’s your follower account now? 

Kelley [00:24:41] 43 something. But if you ask me how many followers I have on YouTube and it’s 100. Okay. Oh. 

Kelley [00:24:49] Follow me on YouTube, please. 

Linzy [00:24:53] Together we can double your follower account if a 100 folks just jump over now, if you’re listening, go follow Kelley on YouTube. Yeah. And we all have our thing, right? So, like, you know, you mentioned like the 5000 thing, don’t sell until you. Kelley, like I hit 5000 followers, like two weeks ago. 

Kelley [00:25:06] Yeah, exactly. So, right. 

Linzy [00:25:08] So it’s like but I’ve been running an online business successfully for four years. So, you know, but, you know, I will say when I first sold my course, I sold it through email and I had an email list of 600 people. So it’s like much smaller number, but emails, higher touch. At that time too, it was easier to sell an email. There were less people in the space. But it’s like, yeah, you need someone to sell to, when you’re going to build something. You need an audience somewhere.  Even if it’s your local network and you have a really great, like, you know, high profile in your local community, you need to have a, you know, name recognition somewhere so that people know that you’re selling and they’re, you know, you’ve got their attention somewhere. And I think that’s such an important piece as we talk about financial risk, because I think sometimes there is this mentality of like. Well, there’s two mentalities. One is the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. The other one is like bootstrap it, don’t spend anything, figure it all out yourself. Don’t spend money on these. Like, you know, one of my colleagues just contacting the other day about a course that we’re both in together and she’s like, I thought it was a scam at first. Like, I wasn’t sure. I was like, it’s not a scam. Like, there’s lots of amazing courses out there, but it’s like, you know, easy to be skeptical. And I think that first school of thought, though, like, the more you spend, the more you get out of it. I’m curious your your thoughts on that mentality, given that you invested quite a bit in yours. What do you think about that kind of type of thinking about investing? 

Kelley [00:26:25] It’s a good question. You know, I would say I tend to be a DIY person. So, for example, when it came to my private practice, it was like I DIYed my own website. I thrifted all the furniture for my first office, you know, I mean, it was like. But I felt really confident in my ability to do so. Do you know what mean, like I knew I could make a good website for my private practice. I knew. And when I went to move into the online space, I was really aware that I wasn’t an expert. 

Kelley [00:26:59] And that there were questions that I didn’t even know to ask the question. Do you know what I mean, like as a therapist, starting a private practice, I’d had a ton of training. I’d spent five years as a marketing, you know, as a marketing person for another practice. I learned on the job. But I it wasn’t like I worked for an online course business or I worked for something where I learned on the job. So going from very little knowledge to a course launch in four months, I knew that there were pitfalls that I couldn’t even see, you know? And for that reason, I felt like I’m investing in the knowledge of other professionals. And I think that, that regardless of whether I’m investing my time, you know, which I think that’s one, you know, you bootstrap it and you’re investing your time in learning from people so you can do it or you’re investing your money and they’re going to help me do this. And ideally, I’m going to learn along the way. But I don’t always, you know, like I’m still my email funnels, man. I like I’m I still ask for help on those, but I think either way, it’s an investment. 

Linzy [00:28:02] Right, investing time or investing money. Yeah. What comes to mind for me too, with that first the first school of thought, the like, the more you invest, the more you make is it does need to be strategic investments. 

Kelley [00:28:13] Oh a 100% 

Linzy [00:28:14] And you need to be able to look and say okay based on these factors, based on my audience size, based on the interviews, like before I made Money Skills for Therapists, actually before I even started offering any financial services to therapists, like any coaching, I did like eight information interviews with people, like really like. And some of those people are like people who are my friends still today, you know, But like, I met them at like a training together. And I was like, tell me about your relationship with money. Like I really drilled into those ideal people. So that before, again what I might have made would have been different if I hadn’t had those conversations. Right? And if I hadn’t, like, put things out there, I’d been getting feedback on those things. I wouldn’t have been able to make the right thing if I had not actually kind of immersed myself in my audience. But I think what I what I want to make clear for folks listening, at least my perspective is you can’t skip that step, right? You can’t just spend money. 

Kelley [00:29:05] There are some steps where you can’t skip it. 

Linzy [00:29:07] You can’t skip it. 

Kelley [00:29:08] I believe if you’re not an expert in the material that you’re teaching and you don’t really know the pain points and the struggles and the solutions to the people you’re going to teach it to, you can’t just hire someone to do that. You know, especially if you’re going to base the business around your knowledge, because then you’re just going, I don’t know. You know what? Yeah, No, I agree with you on that. 

Linzy [00:29:29] Yeah. And so I think, you know, something that I encourage folks to think about is return on investment. Like when you are making an investment, think about first of : right thing, right time. Is this the right thing for you? Is this actually what you need? Do you actually have the bandwidth to take it on and fulfill it? Because there’s lots of amazing courses, but if you don’t actually do them, yeah, you’re not going to get the results right. 

Kelley [00:29:49] I have a couple of those courses. 

Linzy [00:29:51] Yes. Yeah, I’m sure I have some of those too you know, that were never touched, it is basically like a book on the shelf that you never read. But then the other thing is, is putting it into that context of like, is this the right thing in this stage of my business growth? Am I trying to skip steps because you can’t actually pay to skip steps. 

Kelley [00:30:05] You can’t. 

Linzy [00:30:06] In your business, whether that’s private practice growth, whether that’s, you know, online business growth, there’s some things that you just have to go through. So, Kelley, I’m curious then for you. First of all, I do really appreciate to go back just a little bit. I really appreciate you talking about how scary it was to make the investment and those early days of launching. Launching, you know, and I had Annie Schussler on the podcast last season. We chatted about launching like it is. It’s not fun, okay. 

Kelley [00:30:31] I hate it so much. I even hate the word. 

Linzy [00:30:35] I think the only folks I know who really seem to like launching are people who are like really, really high extrovert, really high like stimulation seeking because it is intense. So if like, really intense things make you feel calm, you’re going to like launching. Otherwise, like, yeah, it’s stressful, right? So there’s that. Yeah, but you’re betting on yourself and then you’re kind of waiting to see if you did it right or if you’re doing it right and if it’s going to come back. I appreciate you saying that because I think that’s a good reality check. Because sometimes, like when we watch somebody else, like when we see their business,. 

Kelley [00:31:04] I’ve launched and I did 300 sales on day one. 

Linzy [00:31:07] Yeah. Oh, yeah, there’s that too. Yeah. And I was going to say to you, from the outside, I think it always seems like somebody’s business is going well. Rarely are they going to like go on their Instagram or write an email being like, “it’s dark days here guys. I haven’t had a sale in three months.” But for you thinking about that 40,000 you spent first of all, I’m curious what was in that $40,000? 

Kelley [00:31:27] My two biggest expenses were number one: trademarking I hired an attorney to do and that cost me… well, actually wasn’t my biggest expense, but it was an expensive one, it was like 2500. Shooting the course ended up costing me about 9000 at the door. Part of that was because I did it in a hotel I like. I didn’t do it at home. I have a toddler and it was COVID and you know, there’s was just no way. So I did it in a really nice space. I hired a professional video team, editing team, all that. So that was one of my bigger ones. I could not use my private practice website, you know, like I was using Squarespace at the time. I switched into a platform called Kajabi, which I’ve actually switched away from, but and I liked Kajabi. That’s a whole other episode on that. So I needed to hire somebody to build me a new website. I knew I could build it Kajabi. And actually I like to joke with my website editor because I called him and I was like, Can I just pay for like three or 4 hours of your time to just teach me how to use Kajabi? And then I’ll build the website. And, you know, that was like a good idea, but in the end it wasn’t going to get done in the timeline I wanted it to get in. So I ended up hiring him to do that. And I can’t remember how much, I want to say, spent around 7000 on that and then trademarking and then shooting the course. What else? Oh, I spent a lot on ads. I bought a lot of Instagram ads. I knew, well I don’t know if I knew, but I do know now that for me I think I’m pretty good at converting people who find me into buying from me. So I was willing to spend money on ads. So I spent probably another five or 6000 on ads in the course of a year. And then I needed some gear to film. So I bought like a nice camera. Even though I’ve had it professionally filmed, there was just supplemental things that needed to be filmed, that I filmed from home. I had to start a new company. So originally I thought that I could run my consulting and online course business through my private practice. I had, had a private practice business, and very quickly, my attorney who did my trademarking was like, No. You need a separate S corp. So yeah, and I spent four or 5000 setting up a new corp doing, you know. Again, I could have done it for significantly less than I did it for. But I hired an attorney to do all the people I just like, Yeah, went through it pretty quickly to make sure it was really clean and separate from my and that includes like, you know, at that point I had to pay 2500 to pay for my taxes for that year for that S corp. 

Linzy [00:34:06] Yes. 

Kelley [00:34:06] I don’t just mean just the course, but I mean. The launch of the course, which also meant the launch of a business. 

Linzy [00:34:13] Yeah, you really set up everything. And also you made investments on like I’m sure the camera. Hopefully you still have it and you can still use it. And those kinds of things that are like those long-term startup costs. You paid for it then, but will continue using it. 

Kelley [00:34:26] Exactly like, for example, trademarking. I didn’t have to trademark at that point in time, so I could have never spent that 2500. But I very early on had heard a story about a friend of a friend who had started a company, branded, built a huge Instagram following, and then the same name was used by like an adult industry thing. And they had to but like they had to redo all their SEO. And I knew that, that 2500 would save me money down the road if I had to rebrand. I was going to spend money on my search engine optimization. I was already, I knew, at the point that I was making this investment that I was going, growing pretty quickly on Instagram and that rebranding my Instagram would cost me money. So at that point I was like, no, I need to spend the money on trademarking. Even though at this point in time do I want to spend $2500 on something that feels to me like a piece of paper which is promoting my brand. But I was like, You’ve got to be kidding me, You know, out of this precious, like investment nest egg, I’m going to spend 2500 of that to trademark something? You know, and it takes a long time, in the States. A trademark comes back in eight months to a year. 

Linzy [00:35:37] Oh, wow. 

Kelley [00:35:38] I just like, yeah, it was even slower than that. And I just finished wrapping mine up and we had some like back and forth with other companies and things which again, I had to pay my attorney for. But now I like own my brand, which is very valuable, yeah, I don’t want an adult film private practice pro to come out and then I have, you know, like a different name. Anyway. 

Linzy [00:36:00] It seemed like not very likely, but not impossible. 

Kelley [00:36:03] I know, can you believe like I have a podcast and that’s the first episode of my next season is talking is talking to the person that happened. 

Linzy [00:36:09] Oh, yeah. Who went through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because what I’m hearing is like that 40,000 for you. It really was foundation building. It wasn’t just making a course, it was it wasn’t making a course with polish. Like, I’m sure you know, my, my course Money Skills for Therapist, which is still my main course, I shot myself. Sometimes the camera angle is weird. Sometimes I’m like, that was a weird choice I made that day. But the content stands up and has continued to stand up and, you know, and like 450 people have gone through the course so far. So it’s like we, we make decisions. I think of like again, that time-money equation, the like what feels important at the moment where we want polish and where we’re willing to DIY. And that’s going to be different for everybody, based on like our circumstances and our energy and like what’s important to us as well. 

Kelley [00:36:50] 100% I don’t think I’ll ever professionally shoot a course again. I’m literally, after we hang up today, I’m going to shoot video for my next course and I will shoot it from home. Now, you know, because I realized that did I need to spend that 9000, like, could I buy a beautiful camera and pay an editor? So like, now in my next course, you know, just the filming won’t cost me anything because I’ll film it, but then I’ll pay my editor about like 2500 to edit the whole thing. It’s a lot less than 9000, so, you know, But we live and we learn. 

Linzy [00:37:19] And we all have our own thing, right? So like, I think I’d rather get hit by a truck than make a website. Yeah, I hate making websites passionately for some reason. Doesn’t make sense, but I really dislike it. But I like doing my own film editing, so I edit my own videos. 

Kelley [00:37:33] Really? I’m the exact opposite! I would make a website any day of the week. Yeah, I hate editing. I hate like sitting down and working the camera. Oh my God, that’s so funny. 

Linzy [00:37:44] Yeah. So we all have our thing, right? But yeah, yeah, we would. We would be a good team. I am curious. I have one more question for you about investing. What is the best investment you’ve made in your business financially? 

Kelley [00:37:56] This is a good question. You know. Okay, so this is apart from the launch initially, and I should say, you know, caveat to the launch thing, I actually don’t do live launches now anymore. I felt like it didn’t align with my values. And even though I think I could sell more if I did it in that model, it’s not who I am as a person. So that could be a whole another episode about launching. Anyway, in about a year into my course, we were cranking, we had, you know, about 500 or so people in the course, and I was still at the point where I was running the company by myself. Meaning handling like all, you know, when you run a course, there’s questions, there’s Facebook groups, there’s emails, there’s technical, “I can’t log into this. I need help with this”, all of that kind of stuff I was doing. And I was still in my original platform. And at that point I decided to bring on a subcontractor to do a few things. One to help me rebrand my website, and two, to help me move platforms to a different. I decided to move to Thrive Cart. And that decision was not something at the time that I needed to do. I could have very easily stayed in the platform I was in, stayed with the website. It was beautiful and I’d really been open less than a year. And so at the time, you know, I had just like had a profitable year. And I was like, oh no, like, I’m going to I’m going to make another investment? But I was aware this was about a year ago now. Number one, that I wanted to have another baby. And number two, that the reason that I got into this business was to have more time with my family. And so in order to do that, I had to streamline my process much more. And I needed a platform that was much more automated. I needed a team that could run my website without me. And so I decided to make that investment. And it was all behind the scenes. Like, none of it made new profit, we’ve subsequently made new product, it’s been great and I love that. But at the beginning, the decision to hire a couple of team members was terrifying because I knew I could do it all technically, but I couldn’t do it all and stay within my values of being the mom I wanted to be. And so that was the best investment. And since bringing them on, we’ve been where I’m convinced that we have been more profitable than had I, had I continued to DIY it. I wouldn’t have created new products. They wouldn’t because I didn’t have the time. So you have to be more creative. 

Linzy [00:40:35] Yeah. And that’s I think that’s great for folks who are listening, who are thinking about making a hire to hear. Because, you know, sometimes I’ll, you know, often actually I’ll hear therapists even hesitating around like hiring a VA for a couple of hours a week. And it’s like, because I could do that, I could, I can answer the emails like I can, you know, whatever little tasks we want to do, post my blogs to my website. But what you’re saying, I think, really gets to the core of the value of having help is like: you are reclaiming your time and your bandwidth. You know, you’re allowing yourself to use that however you want, whether that’s making new things, you know, offering new things in your business or whether it’s reclaiming time for your life and time is very, very valuable. 

Kelley [00:41:15] I think for myself as a young mom in my thirties, with young kids being pregnant, having a toddler, time is my absolute most valuable, most limited commodity. And so I am willing to pay more to get that and make less. Now, that obviously comes with a certain amount of privilege because I am willing to make less. But it also means that I make some financial decisions where I’m like, Yeah, we could have more money, but I wouldn’t be able to pick my son up from school or that he still goes in, let’s be really clear. 

Linzy [00:41:56] Yeah, yeah. 

Kelley [00:41:56] But I mean, like, I’m done by 2:00 every day. 

Linzy [00:41:59] Oh, nice. 

Kelley [00:42:00] And in my previous life of full time private practice where I was seeing 20 to 30 clients a week, I was never done by I mean, I was done by seven or eight every night. 

Linzy [00:42:12] And I love that. And then I’ve made the same decision in my own business. I’ve been reflecting recently about how I could really get paid like a lot more in my business, like a lot more than I get paid. But every time I think about taking the tasks that different team members do on my own plate, I’m like: first of all, hell no! I don’t want to do their job. But secondly, it’s like for me, I think about I like to distinguish to even be on time, it’s like bandwidth. Like how much are we frying ourself during the day? Because it’s also for me about like how I am able to show up with my son or the other people in my life that I love. And I could cram some more tasks into my actual day and maybe still finish at the same time. But I’m going to be tired, right? I’m not going to be like I’m not going to have that energy to like this morning, by some miracle, my son and I both got amazing sleep and woke up at 630 and great moods and had this great morning together. 

Kelley [00:43:02] That is a miracle. 

Linzy [00:43:03] It was, it was a true miracle. And he was talking about breakdancing. So I was like, well, I’ll show you a breakdancing video. So we watch a breakdancing video. And then he wanted to have a breakdancing pad. So went under the basement. I set up like there was like a little pad down there that we already had. And like, he did some breakdancing moves and like that, for me, like, that’s about quality of time spent because I’m rested. I’m attentive. Like I’m not distracted or stressed by something. And like that to me, I know is my top priority, and my top value. And if my business is interfering with that, then like we have a problem. 

Kelley [00:43:34] Oh a 100%. And I, you know, one day, I got to see, you got to take up breakdancing. I think we need like a viral Instagram reel of you breakdancing. 

Linzy [00:43:43] That is so far from what is possible in this dimension. But thank you so much. I would do probably 100 thing before I would do breakdancing. But my son, on the other hand, does a lot of breakdancing moves already, which is why I was like: you’re breakdancing. He was like: what’s breakdancing? Like, he kind of like, does like the worm and stuff. So anyways, he must have learned at preschool. It’s super cute. Well, yeah. Kelley, thank you so much for coming back to the podcast today, talking about your experiences with investing and risk. If folks want to get further into your world, where can they find you and follow you? 

Kelley [00:44:16] Yeah. So obviously on Instagram at the Private Practice Pro. Same thing for our website, the Private Practice Pro dot com. I’m venturing my feet into all the other platforms and TikTok and YouTube follow me on there. All the same name, the Private Practice Pro. So. Yeah. Thank you, that was awesome. 

Linzy [00:44:36] Yeah. Thanks so much, Kelley. 

Linzy [00:44:50] From my conversation with Kelley, something that I really took away and that really stuck out is what we each spend money on in our businesses, and what’s worth it for us at certain times is going to be different for everybody. I think it would be hard to argue that there’s very many things that everybody needs to make a major investment to have it happen. I guess there are certain things like lawyers that you can’t really DIY, your own trademarking or whatever, but even when Kelley is talking about trademarking, I don’t have a trademark on what I do. I should actually go out and do that. I haven’t done that yet. Right. And I’m so far, knock on wood, doing just fine. Right? And so we’re all going to have different things that feel important or that given our circumstances, are important to spend money on. And those are going to look different for each of us depending on where we are in our business, what our needs are, what we’re good at, and what we like. Like I was saying, I like video editing. Kelly hates it. She’s going to make her own websites. I’m never going to do that. I have somebody on my team who does that for us. So really connecting with yourself and thinking about what is worth it for you to spend money on, either because of where you are strategically in your business or things that you’re just never going to do yourself and you’re never going to be good at. And the emotional pain of it is worth spending money on versus what is worth taking the time to do yourself either because like we talked about some things you can’t rush. Like you can’t rush, for instance, your audience research as you’re trying to figure out a niche and figure out your language. Like that is a process that has to happen through like communicating with the people you want to serve, gleaning things from a client that you’re seeing to start to understand who’s your niche. Those are things that take time. I don’t think you can really pay to cut corners on those kinds of things. But other things you certainly can do yourself. And it’s up to each of us to make strategic decisions as to where we want to spend our money in our businesses and where we would rather do things with our time instead, which is also a valuable resource. I really appreciate Kelley coming on the podcast today. 

Linzy [00:46:45] If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can follow me at Money Nuts and Bolts. Like I shared with Kelley, we’ve just passed 5000 followers, which is a very cute little number compared to her followers, but we’re very happy to have 5000 folks joining us on Instagram to have these conversations. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts. Leave me a review. I’ve said it before because it’s true. It is the best way for people to find the podcast. Thanks for listening today. 

Meg [00:00:04] That’s a big thing that I talk about my coaching clients with is like when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. We are starting a new season today. Welcome back to season six of the podcast. We do our podcasts in 12-episode chunks so that my team and I can take breaks, we can breathe. I really like doing it that way. So we’ve had a little gap between seasons and now we’re back. And today’s guest is Megan Kelly. Megan Kelly is a mental health therapist in the state of Indiana, and she’s also a business coach for therapists. She runs the popular Instagram account, @antiworktherapist. And today, Megan and I talk about embodiment and therapy and money. We talk about the relationship between embodiment and therapy in general, the relationship between embodiment and money, like being in our bodies in relation to money. We talk about how our relationship with money can interfere with being in our bodies and also how our relationship with money and how money can support being in our bodies and what it’s like to actually have an embodied relationship with money. So we kind of covered embodiment and money from a few angles today. Meg talks about her experiences with burnout and being disconnected from her body and the work that she’s done to come more back into relationship with her body. How money supported her with that, but also about having an actual embodied relationship with money and being able to actually feel our bodies and be really present with money in a profound way and the benefits of that. Here is my conversation with Meg Kelly. So Meg, welcome to the podcast. 

Meg [00:02:43] Thanks for having me. 

Linzy [00:02:44] Yeah, thank you for being on here. I wanted to get started. Meg, like I was mentioning to you I was taking a look at your Instagram beforehand and something really caught my eye as something that you really talk about and promote that I think gets so often missed in the therapy space, period, and in the therapy business space, which is about embodiment. So I’m curious for you, like what is your relationship to embodiment and therapy? Yeah, Tell me your thoughts on the space. 

Meg [00:03:14] Yeah, absolutely. So it’s taken me quite some time as a therapist to feel more embodied. Generally speaking, I’ve definitely struggled with it, both as a professional, as a person. When I first started my practice, it was very hard to feel… I don’t want to say like a human, but to feel like a human in my own body. So because there was so much going on in my mind and there’s so many things that I was trying to pay attention to: money, policies, how to get clients, everything involved, that, you know, it just it felt really hard to be present. And when I started my practice, I was coming out of a group practice where I got a lot of really good experience. But there were a lot of aspects of that that led me to be very burnt out, very disconnected from myself, and pretty hyper-focused on how hard things were at the time, which, you know, I don’t want to stay in a negative headspace a lot. It gets really hard to be there. So there was a lot of just, I don’t want to be here. I want to go out and do something else. I don’t wanna think about it. I don’t want to feel it. But I recognized over time that just- it wasn’t working for me as a person, but it also wasn’t working for my business to be in that space of just being so disconnected from everything. Right. 

Linzy [00:04:34] Yeah. Like, I mean it- and I’m sure many folks listening have experienced this- like when things are hard, for whatever reason, our work environment, it’s adaptive to tune out, right, and to become less connected to our bodies. But then I’m hearing that you also start to notice costs for that. 

Meg [00:04:50] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. It came a lot in the form of physical ailment, physical pain. Right? But there’s also detachment from people outside of my work. So detachment from my spouse and my stepson and friends and family that was part of the cost as well.  

Linzy [00:05:13] Mmm. Oh gosh, yes. And I’m curious like with your, with your work, were you disembodied in your work too. Like what did you notice in that therapist space? 

Meg [00:05:23] What was interesting about that is I found it very easy to tune in to the client. I have a decent amount of training in trauma, so I’m trained in EMDR. I have done a lot of work with polyvagal theory, window of tolerance, really checking in with the physical self and the emotional self in those spaces. I honestly found it quite easy to be in-tune and connected to a degree. There was definitely a lot of not wanting to feel pain in my neck or the pain in my back, or if I noticed that I was becoming internally, I guess you could say dysregulated that would be something that I wouldn’t want to necessarily lean into, but notice in those spaces. So using my training, it was easier in the therapeutic space to do that. But if I felt that way outside of my work, I would almost immediately try to shut it off some way, or try to get it out because it felt so painful when it would actually come up. 

Linzy [00:06:24] Yeah. And would that be kind of your own, like your basically bodily information about what’s actually happening for you? 

Meg [00:06:31] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:32] Yeah. That would be coming up. 

Meg [00:06:32] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:06:33] And you know, like that’s so interesting that you say that you’re able to tune in to your clients. And that’s what I was wondering because I just had a conversation this week, kind of briefly touched in passing with Heather, who coaches for me in Money Skills for Therapists, about how I notice for me, especially when I was a therapist, if was I feeling sick or having like my own stress at home or like some sort of conflict, how I could just turn that off as a therapist, It’s like this like switch that I could flip and then immediately just be attuned to that person and like, yeah, totally like window of tolerance. I used to. I still have it, actually. I had Janine Fischer’s like, flip chart of like the window of tolerance. I had this whole thing. I would go through it. Mine’s getting very yellowed and I don’t use it anymore, but I still have it, like really helping somebody else attune to their body and like, reading their somatic cues. And sometimes I would even like, have mirror symptoms with my clients, like feel like, oh, my chest is feeling really tight. I don’t usually have that, but it’s all about connecting with that person and their body, but not actually being connected with my body, which I find really convenient when I have a cold and I feel crappy. 

Meg [00:07:33] Yeah, I had an entire day one time I worked with food poisoning. I didn’t realize it, like I knew I didn’t feel great. I was in sessions. I was fine. I’m all telehealth too, so that was helpful. But at the end of the session, I was like, Well, I really- I do not feel good right now. I can’t believe I just worked all day. 

Linzy [00:07:56] And, you know, I do remember I attended – just one time, but it was so good – I attended the conference for the International Society for the Study of Trauma Dissociation, and there was an Australian presenter talking about how therapists have to dissociate to do our work, right, like just the position our bodies are in, the amount of time that we have to hold still and like not be distracting to somebody else, be attuned to somebody else. Like we have to tune out those bodily cues in order to do this. It’s almost like built into the work. I’m curious, like your thoughts about that? 

Meg [00:08:29] Yeah, I do find that there is a certain amount of not letting myself get in the way, so to speak. I think that’s kind of an interesting way or different way to frame it. And the more training I get in polyvagal therapy and how that can be both very helpful for the client, but also in checking in with the self. It helps me understand if I am joining or enmeshing with a client. Big difference there. It can be hard sometimes to know the difference until you get some sense of what those bodily cues are. Yeah, but even then if I notice, like, wow, I’m actually taking on anxiety. Like my heart’s racing as my client is talking. That is where I can tell I’m a little more enmeshed than I would like to be. So it’s helpful to some degree, but I don’t want to become overinvolved in that either. 

Linzy [00:09:21] Yeah, of course. Of course. So, you know, you’re saying that kind of at the beginning of then stepping into practice, there was this more disembodiment, which sounds like it was kind of a leftover from your previous environment. I’m curious how did that shift or change over time? 

Meg [00:09:40] In a very bumpy, roundabout, difficult way? 

Linzy [00:09:45] Got it. 

Meg [00:09:46] So for those who are familiar with my work, I had and I still have, although it’s been on pause for a while, a podcast called Mental Status, which is primarily about burnout within the mental health field. And so I had interview-style episodes with other therapists talking about burnout. That was, in my mind as I’m looking back, one of the biggest signs to myself, like, my goodness, maybe it’s time to like, actually pay attention to this. I knew at some level that I was burned out working where I was working, but it wasn’t until I actually got out of that environment that the remnants started showing up. A lot of scarcity, a lot of ups and downs, emotionally, a lot of fatigue. That first six months of practice, I was either on an emotional high, like I felt great, or I was so tired and so frustrated and so overwhelmed that I felt like, I don’t even want to do this anymore. I just I don’t know why I got into this career. I don’t know why I’m doing this. I need to just like, close up shop and go back to working in marketing. So it was all of that. It wasn’t until probably the fall of that first year that I really started to feel like, No, I’m intentionally making this choice to be here. I am choosing to do this practice, I’m choosing these policies, I’m choosing my schedule. I’m the one making it difficult for myself in a lot of ways, or easy, depending on how I look at it. Yes, I do. I actually want to do this because, yes, I’m the one in charge. 

Linzy [00:11:23] Takes a while to catch up, eh? To ourselves. Yeah, I do. I have like noticed it’s just so easy to just replicate the environment that we were just in, even if it’s just on an emotional level of not connecting with the fact that you’re actually the boss now, you actually get to make like all the decisions and you can make it look however you need it to look. I find people have a really hard time giving themselves permission or actually stepping into that empowerment. We end up kind of acting like there is somebody else making the decisions. Not for our betterment. Some shadowy figure, I guess. I’m not sure. 

Meg [00:11:55] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:56] But it’s definitely like this repetition that happens. 

Meg [00:11:58] And what I noticed too is both sort of feeling like there should be somebody else in charge. That’s kind of how I felt at times, like, I don’t want this. Somebody else should be in charge. Take it away from me. And also a little bit in handing that off to clients, which fortunately in my first year of practice I was in a coaching container actually with a former podcast guest of yours, Felicia Keller Boyle. 

Linzy [00:12:22] Oh lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Meg [00:12:24] So I was in her year-long coaching container and one of the things that she always talked about is you don’t ask other people for permission to run your business the way you need to run it. And that just really stuck with me. And eventually I caught up with myself and finally, like, embodied that part of my practice as well. 

Linzy [00:12:47] Let’s get to where you are today. 

Meg [00:12:49] Mm hmm. 

Linzy [00:12:50] Today, how do you relate to your own embodiment and how do you think embodiment and therapy go together? 

Meg [00:12:59] Mm hmm. Well, outside of work now, I currently, for the most part, love to be in my body. I found a lot of ways that work for me to either gently or more vigorously get back into myself once I get out of the therapy space. So one thing that I’ve mentioned and some of the stuff that I’ve published is CrossFit. Now, I know a lot of people have a lot of ideas about CrossFit. I personally feel like it came into my life at the perfect time. It was the right gym for me. It was the right people, the right type of movement. Doing something like that helps me feel very viscerally alive after being very much in my head all day as part of the work. It’s very cerebral, unless you’re doing really specific somatic work. Yeah, there’s a lot of talking, a lot of thinking. And so going into those spaces helps me reconnect. And even in the therapy space, as I’m learning more, I’m starting to connect more with my physical self in the space. I’ve started to learn that, like, I have this thing right here, I have fidgets with me, right? Like, and this is something that helps. And I felt weird about that for a very long time. And I’m just like, now I pick this up and show my clients. I’m like, Look, I’m squeezing this fidget ball underneath my desk. Like, this helps me too. Yes, you can do the same. 

Linzy [00:14:22] Yes. 

Meg [00:14:23] Yes. So it feels much more natural and less strenuous, I’d say, overall, the way that I’m practicing today.

Linzy [00:14:33] And as you know, this is a money podcast. So we’re going to bring in the money piece now. 

Meg [00:14:38] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:14:39] What have you noticed about how money and the way that people relate to money? Like I’m going to say, people’s relationship with money, how can that interfere with embodiment? 

Meg [00:14:50] I can talk about myself in that regard. When I first started my practice, there was a lot of content that I was consuming from a lot of really cool therapists online who were talking about your six-figure practice. And that, in my mind, was sort of set forth as like, that is the goal. That’s where I’m headed. That’s what I need. Because that’s just like. That’s what people do, right? Like, that’s where we’re going. And the way it showed up for me was even when I was having other types of success in my practice, even if I was having success with clients, finding clients, retaining clients, really good therapeutic work, or if I was connecting with other therapists or put in a policy that I felt really supported me. Yeah, if something wasn’t reflected in the dollar signs, I’d be like, It’s not working right? Which is not true. And I say that with the the second or third month that I was in practice, I made the most money in one month that I had ever made in my life. And I still felt like I was back in that group practice where I was making a quarter of that amount. It felt like that to me. I was like, This doesn’t feel stable or safe. That number doesn’t seem real. So it can be a very just like. You don’t quite know how to step into that space. Initially, it feels, for me, it felt very unreal, almost, that I was making that type of money. 

Linzy [00:16:23] Yeah. Like there’s there’s a disconnection there. Or like, a lack of presence or trust. Right. Like you didn’t trust the numbers were real. 

Meg [00:16:31] No. 

Linzy [00:16:32] And this is what I noticed, I think, with a lot of therapists also, I think tend to skew towards perfectionism and like being goal oriented. And I have noticed, like, it can be hard for us to connect with success, like actually viscerally physically connect to success and feel excited or feel proud or feel accomplished or empowered like, I did that, like physically, like owning it. There can be this real disconnection for good numbers. 

Meg [00:17:04] Oh, absolutely. 

Linzy [00:17:04] Of course we own the failure immediately. That’s me. Like, that’s obviously reflective of me as a human and my value. But those good numbers can be actually harder to connect with and to own as real. And I do see that as like a lack of presence, a lack of presence. And and as I’m talking, I’m putting my hand on my chest. This is a podcast. You cannot see this, but that real embodied presence of being with. We have a hard time being with. 

Meg [00:17:31] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was a lot that I had learned to be with constriction and feeling like I was lacking and that there was not enough. I think that’s a feeling and an attitude and a belief that is quite pervasive, not just in the therapeutic areas, but all over the place. Right. And for a lot of very valid reasons. And it felt so unnatural for me, both professionally, even though I was well into my thirties at that point, based on where I am in my career, what makes sense? Good money. But it didn’t feel like it was actually for me or that it was real or that I was with it. And it seemed like the numbers just- I didn’t know what was happening with them for quite some time and actually some evidence of that, as well, within Felicia’s coaching container, every month she would send out a form for us to fill out. How many clients did you see? How much did you earn this month? And I avoided it. If she listens to this, she will recognize like Meg almost never sent those in. And I recognize alone that I didn’t send them in. Part of it was just like, I can’t. I can’t look at this. I can’t feel it. I don’t know what to do with this. It was at the time, almost a feeling of shame, which is a little strange. Even though I was well out of a space where I felt ashamed of how much I was making. It’s just a very interesting time. 

Linzy [00:19:01] Yeah. And and I’m curious, like, do you think at that time, would there have been any number that would have you would have been like, okay, now we’re here? Or was it very much about like your own headspace and where your emotions were at? 

Meg [00:19:16] I think it was more about the headspace and being early in my practice too. I think there was some element of still feeling like I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah. So that even feeling like a fluke, like, well, sure. And made that much this month, but like next month. No way. Yeah. Even though the next month I didn’t make quite as much, but it was still good enough. It was enough money.  So definitely a lot of the headspace there was, That’s what was going on for me.  

Linzy [00:19:45] And so since then, I’m curious, what has been your experience with money supporting embodiment? We just talked about like disconnection and like not being able to connect and and also chasing something, like chasing- when I hear like six-figure practice, it’s like you’re chasing this thing on paper, this intellectual thing that might not even make sense for your life or for your needs, but you’re chasing from your head, not from your body. I’m curious now, like, how has money been able to support you in embodiment? 

Meg [00:20:14] Well, go back to that physical health aspect. It allows me to afford these gym memberships where I find a lot of value in the work that I do there in the community that I have. Being more intimately familiar with the money that’s coming in and out every month, which I am now, and looking at it quite frequently, it helps me not hide from myself in terms of my money, and it really encourages me to be mindful about how I’m setting myself up. So last year I didn’t have a retirement account set up – well, I did, but I hadn’t started contributions for it. I hadn’t really set up a savings for myself. I was saving for tax, so I at least had that. But the rest was just kind of like, I don’t know if I can afford to use, I guess we’ll see. But in getting working with my own nervous system around money. Becoming more familiar with those numbers, becoming more comfortable with what I was charging, led me to more comfort with looking at the numbers, more comfort with committing to a monthly contribution to my retirement funds, which in an interesting way, I had this mindset of I don’t want to start that if I can’t guarantee that I can always pay that amount into my retirement account, which is like if I need to stop that for a month or two to pay other things, I can pause it and then restart it like it’s not- 

Linzy [00:21:39] Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Meg [00:21:40] So it’s a much deeper familiarity. And that has allowed me to now have savings in my business that affords me seven weeks of paid time off. In addition, it has allowed me to joyfully participate and not, like, begrudgingly participate, in a two-week vacation for my stepson, who’s graduating from high school, and say, like, Yes, we can do that. So it’s lending itself to experience. And it also it’s given me more time to create free or lower-cost content for the people that I’m trying to help. I’m not so caught up in trying to make money that I can actually provide content to people who need it and can’t afford, you know, consultation sessions with me. 

Linzy [00:22:26] Yes, And that’s such an excellent point. And I think people who are listening will appreciate that piece of it is what I’m hearing is like by you being able to be with more, you’ve been able to make money work for you better, which means also you’re not just constantly chasing more. So you can actually put your time and your bandwidth towards creating those accessible things for folks to reach who may not be able to afford working with you, I would assume it could be part of that too. Yeah. Like it’s giving you- this is something I’ve been thinking about a little bit is the distinction, too, between like time and bandwidth. You know, we can buy back time and time is valuable, but even more valuable in time is bandwidth, where we’ve actually left ourselves with the energy at the end of the day to, like, enjoy life, have hobbies, have a community, and like be able to be creative, which when we’re working as hard as we can, whether it’s towards a real goal that makes sense or an arbitrary goal, somebody else’s set that doesn’t even suit us, we don’t have that left at the end of the day. 

Meg [00:23:24] We don’t. 

Linzy [00:23:25] Like it’s yeah, it’s like try to recuperate, start over the next day. 

Meg [00:23:28] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that was a big part of the cycle that I was caught in for quite some time, was sitting at my desk from 8:30 until 6:30 or seven, and then not having enough energy to do anything other than watch TV and eat dinner. Yes. Not. It wasn’t fun. It’s not like my whole life. No. Yes. Yes. 

Linzy [00:23:51] And sometimes, too, I think about like, what is the life that our clients imagine us having? You know, And it’s like, that’s probably not it. Probably like, Oh, And then my therapist lies on the couch and stares blankly at the TV until she finally musters up the will to go to bed. That’s what I’m going for. And that’s why I’m working with this person. Yeah. No, it’s those expanding possibilities. And I’m curious too, Meg, like, thinking about having a more embodied relationship with money now, like, I’m hearing, first of all, money supports you in doing the stuff that takes care of your body, but also having that more embodied relationship where you can be with what emotions go with money for you, now. 

Meg [00:24:25] I still experience some anxiety. I’m hoping that at some point that will lessen or go away. But I’m also realistic enough to know that anxiety is normal. So that still occurs, but I think a little bit more what’s peaking out is the sense of possibility. And I don’t want to say full-on security, but a little bit more of a sense of security and knowing that I’ve made it work for myself. So far, I have not ever been in a place where I mean, I’ve had some very, very financially stressful times, but I have supports and I’m very lucky for that and privileged for that. And so recognizing the supports that I have in place, recognizing that I don’t need to be the only one in my family unit keeping an eye on this, like my spouse is in this with me, it brings a greater sense of just being able to trust that. Just a little bit more trust. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:25:20] So I’m hearing anxiety, trust. Are there – I’m going to therapist you just a little bit – are there other feelings in the mix? 

Meg [00:25:26] Probably. I haven’t mentioned- so a bit of excitement. There’s definitely excitement around knowing that with the money that I have earned through my consulting business, I was able to pay upfront for the tickets to go to Europe with my stepson this summer. Like that was something that was supported. And so it feels supported, exciting. It’s lending itself to opportunity and excitement, a little bit more stability and security. I’m still working on that. And there’s still mixed in just a little bit of a sense of like, I wish it didn’t have to be this way. Like part of me wishes money wasn’t a factor. But yeah, I live in a society- in reality, so. Yeah, it is. It has. 

Linzy [00:26:10] It is. It is. Yeah. And I just did a workshop today for the Canadian Counseling and Psychotherapy Association. They heard that this like, wellness event. And in it I was thinking about like, right, like money and wellness. And I had the slide where I was just like a long time ago, our society decided money would be used as a way of exchanging, you know, goods and services. I was like easing that transition. It’s like that is what it is. It’s like I do therapy or I’m, you know, I teach somebody a course and my money allows me to turn that into groceries. Yeah. Otherwise it’d be very complicated to get groceries, if I needed to rely on the person, the grocery store wanting, you know, a consultation about therapy, that wouldn’t really work. And so it’s like but it helps me zoom out a little bit, even just to be like, right, this is just a means of exchange that we’ve agreed on and therefore it’s unavoidable. But for me, it, it helped to deepen the neutrality of it a little bit more. For me too. I was just it’s just a way of treating shit, basically. Yeah. And there are ways that we can trade things directly if we happen to have something somebody wants and they have something we want, we can make a direct trade. But a lot of times there needs to be an intermediary symbol. 

Meg [00:27:13] Yeah. One of the things that was most helpful in neutralizing for me, I don’t quite recall where I heard this. It might have been in conversation with my husband or maybe on a podcast at some point, but the framing of things cost money. That is things cost money. That’s the reality. And so learning to sit with that, too, which can bring up frustration and uncertainty and this is unfair, shouldn’t be this way. And it currently is. So that’s what we have to work with. Yes, absolutely. 

Linzy [00:27:44] I do want to just touch back on the emotions that you described, unlike the excitement of being able to, you know, pay for this trip upfront, you know, from the work that you’ve done. And that to me is one of the greatest wins of having an embodied relationship with money. Right. It’s like you actually get to feel the good stuff, right? Because like, theoretically, you actually had opportunity to be very excited that like second month in practice or whatever, where you made like more money than ever before, that could have been exciting if embodiment was available to you at that time, because that’s incredible. 

Meg [00:28:19] Right. 

Linzy [00:28:20] But I think when we don’t have that presence, it’s hard. You don’t get as much as the negative. That’s although it’s waiting for you, of course, later, in the form of like a headache or stomach ache. But you also do get to feel the good stuff and like the pride and excitement and accomplishment of what you’ve done with your energy and your gifts. 

Meg [00:28:38] And I would agree, I enjoy the fact that I can enjoy it more now than I did before. And that I’m able to take the good with the bad and the neutral and apply that money to things that I want and need. That’s a big thing when I talk about my coaching clients with, say, when you’re setting a budget for yourself, I know most of you are just going to set the money that you think you need and nothing that you want. So like, can we add in some of the things that you actually want to be able to do with the money that you’re earning? Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:29:12] Yeah. Like, let’s go for more than living and getting by. 

Meg [00:29:15] Yeah. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:29:19] So, Meg, can you tell folks a little bit more about the work that you do? 

Meg [00:29:23] Yeah. So in my private practice, I have an all-telehealth private practice in Indiana, where I specialize in – surprise, surprise – burnout for mental health therapists. And I also do EMDR work and nontraditional relationship structures. So polyamory, things like that. And then I have a consulting business consulting and coaching where I work with other therapists who are starting a practice and looking for support. So doing what I do, trying to get support right out of the gate to make that first year as good as possible. Also, working with folks who’ve been in practice for a while and just want to up little things for themselves. And as part of that consultation business, I don’t have a date set yet, but one thing I did this spring was a group coaching experience for therapists who are leaving the therapy field, which was actually a very wonderful space and I was really glad to be able to facilitate that. So that will likely be coming up again in the fall of 2023. And in addition to that, I’ve got the @antiworktherapist Instagram page, which is kind of where a lot of this started. It sort of built out of the podcast that I had in 2021, whenever that was. And that’s basically an advocacy page for therapists talking about, I guess, work-life balance practitioner-first policies, making this work work for you and a lot of things of that sort. Great. 

Linzy [00:30:54] So if folks want to learn more about you and maybe work with you, there’s the @antiworktherapist Instagram. Is that the best place for them to follow you or are there other places they should also check you out? 

Meg [00:31:04] Yeah. So @antiworktherapist is great. You can also find me at informercoaching.com. So on Instagram, it’s just @informercoaching. That is where you find more of the coaching and consulting content and my website and information is on there if you want to schedule a consultation. 

Linzy [00:31:20] So thank you for coming on the podcast today. 

Meg [00:31:22] Of course. Thanks for having me. This is great. 

Linzy [00:31:38] This conversation with Meg today has me thinking a little bit about how some of the struggles that therapists have with money, whether it’s avoiding money or overspending, have to do with a lack of embodiment around money, right? Of not really being able to be with or sometimes not being able to tolerate, you know, the feelings that we have with money. And so we take fast action. We use money as a way to try to get away from the feelings that we’re having in our body, like feeling inadequate. Feel like you’re not a good therapist. You see this clinical training come up and you’re like, That’ll make me a better therapist. That’ll make my microservices worth the money to my clients. And you split second by something to try to make the feeling in your body go away rather than being able to be with it and notice it and name it for what it is. And you know, I loved Meg’s points about having an embodied relationship with money and how that looks different now and being able to start to connect with pride. Well, she talked more about excitement. I was thinking about pride as well. That is something that I’ve noticed with many of the therapists who’ve gone through many skills for therapists is they get excited, right? So rather than when you work through money and you learn how to use it and have a relationship with it, then you can actually feel excitement and pride and empowerment and expansiveness around money. But we can’t access those things if we’re cut off from our body and if we’re not able to really be with what’s happening, we don’t get the good if we cut off the bad, which of course the therapist we know. But it applies to money just like it applies to everything else. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find us at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please take a minute to jump over and review it on Apple podcast. It is the best way for therapists to find us and be part of this conversation. Thanks for listening today.