Gordon Brewer [00:00:00]: 

Now, I think there’s this unspoken stigma around money in that if you are making a lot of money or you’re doing well financially, then you’re not being generous, then you’re not being helpful because you’re keeping too much for yourself. You’re being selfish, you’re being greedy. All of those kinds of things are kind of embedded in that self talk and that self story that we tell ourselves. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:29]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapy , the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapy ists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:07]: 

Before we get into today’s episode, I wanted to share a review. The review says, Great podcast. Five stars. Linzy’s positive, competent and supportive style provides a framework to understand private practice finances and explore what holds you back for being as successful as you can be. Thank you so much Dr. M. Ivey for your review. I so appreciate you taking the time and for your kind words. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:32]: 

And I think Dr. M. Ivey, you’re going to find today’s episode also very helpful when it comes to exploring what’s holding you back from being as successful as you can be. Today’s guest is Gordon Brewer. Gordon is lmft. He is a group practice owner in Tennessee and he is also the person behind the practice of therapy, the podcast and courses. And today, Gordon and I talk about mistakes that has made along the way of building his group practice. We dig into concepts of the difference between nice and being kind. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:06]: 

We talk about stories around generosity and some of his own money stories that came into his early days of building his group practice specifically. But we also talk about how these things show up in all these different facets of our relationship with money. And we also talk about his having to change course and fix these mistakes and how he did that and what it was like to do that because we are all going to make mistakes when we are building our practices. I make mistakes all the time. Probably made some mistakes just within the last month and that is part of building a Business. So much of our success as business owners has to do with being able to stop, identify a mistake that is being made, and sometimes having to take big action to rectify it. So Gordon shares about his own experience of having to do that, what it took, how he did it. And I hope in that you will find inspiration today in being able to stop and identify maybe some of the mistakes you’re making right now and take action to actually change them, because that is what allows us to be successful in our private practices. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:11]: 

Here is my conversation with Gordon Brewer. So, Gordon, welcome to the podcast. 

Gordon Brewer [00:03:22]: 

Well, it’s good to be here. Thanks for having me, Linzy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:25]: 

Yeah, I’m very excited to have you here. I had the pleasure of being on your podcast recently, recording with you, and it was one of those lovely things to connect with somebody whose name I’ve heard for years, and then to meet you and to have you be just as lovely as, you know, like, I, you know, as the folks who I’ve met said, it’s always nice to meet other folks who are supporting therapists and, you know, find just really great people there. 

Gordon Brewer [00:03:47]: 

Right, right. Well, you’re very kind. Yes. I really enjoy this format, and I’ve just met just tons of great people just like you all over the years, and I learn a lot. I learn a lot. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:00]: 

Yeah, yeah. Which is one of the nice things about having a podcast is we just get to have great conversations that benefit us and also, you know, hundreds or thousands of other people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:08]: 

Sure, sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:09]: 

So, Gordon, for folks who have not had the pleasure yet of hearing about you and the work that you do, could you give us a bit of an introduction? 

Gordon Brewer [00:04:16]: 

Sure. So, yeah, I’m Gordon Brewer. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I own a small group practice in Northeast Tennessee in a little, small metropolitan area called the Tri Cities and Kingsport, Tennessee, specifically. But, yeah, my practice is Kingsport Counseling Associates, and I have five clinicians besides myself that work for me, plus one admin person. And I made the decision, as I’ve gone along just to kind of keep it small. There’s a lot of different touchstones along the way where you have to make decisions, which we could spend a whole day talking about those different decisions you have to make along along the way. But also, people probably might know me from my podcast, the Practice of Therapy y podcast, which I’ve been doing since 2017. So I got into the podcasting world, I guess, really when it was just really starting to take off, and people. 

Gordon Brewer [00:05:16]: 

People really got interested in podcasts, but it focuses on helping clinicians like you do, Linzy, with really focusing kind of on the clinical side. I mean, the business side of running a private practice primarily. But I’ve also been delving into different clinical topics as well because I think that there’s a lot of crossover there between that and also I have a. In 2022, I started a podcast network called the Sitecraft Network. And that’s really for people in this space, either self help people that are doing self help or psychology or whatever. And also the business side of running a private practice just to give a platform for people to find us easily, more easily, and also just some cross promotion and support mainly. That’s what I’ve been doing. My podcast, the Practice of Therapy y podcast is we’re getting ready to come out with our 400th episode as we’re recording this with you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:20]: 

But yeah, so I’m excited about. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:22]: 

That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s amazing. And I love that you also are diving into clinical topics because that’s something that I notice in myself doing this work with therapists that I think is specific and also needed is that we are doing business, you know, so some general business things do apply to us. You can read general business books and glean helpful things, but there’s also specific facets of therapy and the service of therapy and the ethics of therapy and the complexity that normal business rules do not apply to. We’ve kind of got, you know, we’ve got an extra set of considerations we need to be making as we’re making business decisions. 

Gordon Brewer [00:06:59]: 

Sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:00]: 

Because we’re also working with folks who are very vulnerable to us. 

Gordon Brewer [00:07:03]: 

Right, right. And also I think too a big topic that comes up is just self care for therapists because we deal with very heavy stuff day in and day out. And so being able to look at caring for ourselves and then also just the added stress of running a business and that kind of thing just all can create a perfect storm, so to speak, for just being able to. The need for taking care of yourself. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:28]: 

Yes. Yeah, it’s a perfect storm for burnout, I think, is what it is. And so, yeah, we need to be extra well to do this work. So you’ve walked this road for a while, you’ve built a group, you’ve got your podcast coming up to 400 episodes, you’ve got your podcast network. So you’ve done a lot, you’ve built a lot of amazing things. And something that I sometimes notice about folks who are maybe earlier in their business journey, maybe starting out in private practice or only a Couple years in is. It’s easy to look at people who are ahead of you and to assume that they have it figured out that they know what they were doing or always have known what they were doing, that they’ve walked this road perfectly. So today I want to dig in with you on the opposite of that, which is the mistakes that you’ve made as you’ve been building off the top. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:15]: 

What are some of the mistakes that come to mind for you? Financial mistakes as you’ve been building your businesses? 

Gordon Brewer [00:08:20]: 

Yeah, well, let’s get the big, long list out. But there’s. Yeah, there’s been a lot of mistakes, but I think one in particular was when I. I made the decision, and this directly relates to the money side of things. When I made the decision to bring on other therapists into my practice, I had reached that point as a kind of a solo practitioner. I had a person who was. I was supervising, and she was starting to see clients and that sort of thing, and we were kind of operating independently. But I decided, okay, well, I’m getting full. 

Gordon Brewer [00:08:58]: 

I’d like to be able to benefit from the brand that I formed and all that kind of thing. And so I brought on people, and I initially brought on the people that were working for me just as independent contractors, because I thought, okay, that’s simple. That’s what I’ve heard about. And I don’t have to worry about, for those of us in the United States, the fica, the income tax stuff, and having to pay all that, and all those complicated things. But one of the things that I did is I thought, well, I want to be generous. I want it to be worthwhile for people. So I came up with, I thought, was a good split of the. What we refer to as the split as far as they get a percentage. 

Gordon Brewer [00:09:37]: 

Of what? Of the clients that they see. And so I just kind of thought, well, this sounds like a good, good thing. And so the big mistake I made was, is I didn’t really look at my numbers well ahead of time, and I just kind of randomly picked a percentage. And what I found as I was growing and the people that were working with me, their caseloads were growing and that sort of thing. And when it came time to pay them, I thought, oh, my gosh, this is a stretch. I was having to pay them out of what I produced in the long run, that was just not sustainable. So I had to kind of regroup and figure that out. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:20]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:22]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:23]: 

Which is not fun. Right. Like, at that point, because. And I see this so Often, I don’t know. I’ve so rarely seen a group practice owner who actually sets a sustainable split from the beginning, which I think is our nature as caring people. And I think often what I see group practice owners do is they look at other situations that they perceive to be inequitable or bad or that actually were, you know, like, bad situation. They’re like, I’m not gonna do that. So they set a split that’s much more generous, is the term that you used, than what is typical without. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:56]: 

Yeah, as you say, like running the math and seeing. Because, you know, what I’m hearing is as your business was growing and there’s more and more money coming in, it was still incredibly tight to run payroll. Like, more money coming in the door didn’t mean that money was there for what it actually needed to do. 

Gordon Brewer [00:11:10]: 

Right, right. And I think a big part of. When you look at the motivation behind that, I think for a lot of us, when we got into. Got into practice, just in general, maybe we work for an agency and that sort of thing. And as you start learning and listening to the chatter, well, they’re bringing in this amount of money, but we’re only getting paid X amount of money. And that just doesn’t seem fair. And so that was kind of the story I was living with, is that I wanted to be generous with that and wanted them to keep a lot of what they were producing, which, again, is a very good thing. But it’s not sustainable. 

Gordon Brewer [00:11:51]: 

You end up losing money, and if you’re losing money, you’re not going to be able to stay in practice. You have to just kind of understand that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:59]: 

And I’m curious for you because I think there’s kind of different sometimes levels or facets to what drives us to make this kind of decision. Because I see this, this is so common. I think that this is one of our Achilles heels as therapists in business. I’m curious for you, that motivator to be generous, is that about a certain value you’re trying to live out? Is that about trying to avoid a specific negative story? Like, do you know what really drove that for you specifically to make that decision? 

Gordon Brewer [00:12:29]: 

Well, I think as much as anything is, I wanted it to. I’m a helper. And that’s part of my. Like you said, that’s part of my core values, is that I want to be helpful to people and. And I enjoy helping people connect and I enjoy helping people be successful. Any of us that go into the therapy field, that’s kind of an underlying thing. And so that translated over to the people that were working with me. The other part of it is just the whole money mindset that I think a lot of us get handed just growing up, depending on how we grew up and that sort of thing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:08]: 

And I think there’s this unspoken stigma around money, and that if you are making a lot of money or you’re doing well financially, then you’re not being generous, then you’re not being helpful because you’re keeping too much for yourself, you’re being selfish, you’re being greedy. All of those kinds of things are kind of embedded in that self talk and that self story that we tell ourselves. And so a lot of it was just really kind of getting past that, of recognizing that, okay, I’ve got to make money in order for the other people to make money, in order to stay in business, in order to help people. Because unless you got. You’re a nonprofit and you’ve got millions of dollars of grant money coming in, it can’t be sustained. So you have to make a profit in order to keep going. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:02]: 

Yeah, yeah. Because if you don’t have a profit, you. You’re going to be kind of giving it all away at the beginning and then have to close. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:08]: 

Right, right, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:10]: 

And if we think about the actual impact of that over time in terms of, like, clients served and people having stable employment, and then also you. The impact on you of having to recover from that burnout and rebuild something else, I would argue that there’s much less good that happens in the world when we kind of like, give too much and then have to stop and regroup and build something entirely new all over, all over again. Yeah. And the term generous is sticking out to me because I hear generous as a motivator for it. I’m also thinking for some folks, it’s about, like, justice or equity or even like a class identity of like, I am not a rich person. This is not who I am. I want to be. If I become that, then I’m a bad person. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:51]: 

Yeah. It just occurs to me there’s just so many, so many stories that lead to this exact same mistake, kind of depending on our specific mix of money stories that we’ve grown up with. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:01]: 

Right, right. And I think too, just looking at, even going farther back, at looking at our family of origin and just what we grew up and the message that we had about money. Growing up, I grew up in, My dad was a pastor in my family, kind of the underlying message around money was that money comes through the generosity of others. Being in business was not. That’s not what we do kind of thing. That was kind of the message. And then learning later in life, my dad was just not a great money manager. He didn’t learn that skill. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:38]: 

And so, you know, if there was something. I’m dating myself, but in that. The era that my dad was operating in is that as a pastor of a church, you were dependent on the members of the church or the members of the congregation to provide for you. And that’s. That’s how they set it up, too. I mean, they didn’t. They would have a parsonage, you know, where they provided housing and a stipend and that kind of thing. So there was not really built into that an ability to build equity, so to speak, and assets. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:11]: 

You just survived and you. You got fed and you had a roof over your head and that kind of thing. And there wasn’t a lot of extravagance built in with that. And so as you think about that, that’s a whole message about money that can. Can feed a lot of the things that. That people do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:29]: 

Yeah, absolutely. And something that strikes me about that is, is that story about generosity was true for your dad. Yes, your dad did rely on the generosity of his parishioners because they didn’t have to give him a certain amount of money. There was not actually a contractual agreement. You come this many Sundays, you pay this much for Sunday, or this is your membership fee. It’s like he had to rely on people feeling generous in order to get paid. And so for him, generosity and money were hand in hand in terms of the job that he had. And then I’m hearing, you know, that then you inherited that story and kind of took it into this different space as you became a group practice owner. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:05]: 

You’re right. Exactly. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:07]: 

So I’m hearing that that was one big mistake. You said you had a list, and I want to hear more of the list. Yeah, yeah. 

Gordon Brewer [00:17:12]: 

So, yeah. And I think. I think the other thing was, is just very few. I think there are a few graduate programs that are starting to teach business and money skills and that kind of thing. But knowing how to run a business, particularly a small business, and understanding this whole idea of knowing your numbers, the accounting, the bookkeeping, all of those kinds of things. I didn’t know those things, and so I had to learn them. But once I started learning them, there were. It really got pretty exciting then because I thought, oh, this is how this works. 

Gordon Brewer [00:17:51]: 

This is how this all fits together. And I think a pivotal moment for me on just the money side of things was when I read the book Profit first by Mike Michalowicz, just thinking about, oh, okay, if I structure things this way, this is going to make my life much easier and take so much stress out of making sure there’s enough money there for the things that needed to be there for taxes, for paying your employees, for reserves, for slow times. And all of those kinds of things were kind of built into that system. And so I think that was a big learning curve for me because other than that, like I said, I was paying my people too much, number one. And so I was struggling to kind of make payroll every month as far as covering that for people. The other thing, too, and this is kind of a little bit of a not so much a money thing, but it does relate to money, is knowing how to hire the right people in a group practice. Because I made some hiring mistakes and also not setting expectations early on for people. And so I had a therapist that I had hired that I kept on too long. 

Gordon Brewer [00:19:11]: 

They were not following through on things. They weren’t getting their session notes done, and they were not collecting from clients and just all kinds of stuff like that. And I tended to bury my head in the sand about that because I wanted to be nice. So a mistake I made was being too nice about things and also not setting expectations on the front end and then holding people accountable for that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:39]: 

Yes. This is a bit of a theory that I’ve developed just recently. It’s an observation of myself and also my students, my therapists, who I work with is, I think, many therapists. The first struggle that we experience in terms of boundaries and being nice in private practice is with our clients. Right? We want to be nice. We don’t want them to have to pay more than they can afford. And so we make assumptions or we let them set a very low sliding scale price with us. That’s usually a very early in practice mistake. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:05]: 

Right. And then, yeah, we maybe, like, don’t set a lot of boundaries and clarity around your treatment plan. You really do need to come every two weeks or every week of creating those boundaries. And then what I do find is once we work through those things, which take time to work through that first level of being able to hold boundaries and be clear with our clients. For therapists who then get to the place where they want to build a group practice, then we repeat those same mistakes in a new way with our team. Because now we want to be a good boss, and now we have to work through these stories about what A good boss is. 

Gordon Brewer [00:20:41]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:42]: 

Right. And not wanting to be like a mean, demanding boss. But then we end up, I think, in these poor boundary situations with our team quite easily. I see this pattern all the time. I see it in myself, as I said, too, and I see it in my students. 

Gordon Brewer [00:20:58]: 

Yeah. As I tell my own therapist, I’m a recovering people pleaser. And so, you know, one of the great greatest things you can learn with that is the word no. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:08]: 

Yes. Yes. 

Gordon Brewer [00:21:09]: 

And you talked about setting boundaries with clients. I think one mistake, too, that people will do is they will, even when it comes to scheduling, is they won’t stick to their schedule. Can you not see me at such and such a time? Well, okay. And then that just creates a precedent that just can lead to a lot of burnout and a lot of. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:32]: 

Yeah. Because in those small decisions, I believe we often think we’re being kind. You know, we think that this is the kind thing to do. Like, oh, they can’t come that day. They want to see me at 6. Sure. Like, it’s only once or it’s fine. I don’t want them to miss their session. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:46]: 

So we think we’re being kind. But so quickly that leads to resentment and exhaustion. And I’m thinking with our team members, too, when you’re mentioning of not holding them accountable to expectations, also very quickly, you know, your feelings about that person are not gonna be very positive. It’s not gonna be a positive relationship for you anymore. And so, like, is that actually kind? You know, I think that that narrative falls apart quite quickly with the immediate impacts of not having clear communication with our team. 

Gordon Brewer [00:22:18]: 

Yeah. And one thing I’ve heard is the difference between being nice and. And the different. And being kind. You know, being kind to someone, you set expectations and they know what to expect from you and they know what the boundary is and they’re not hit with any surprises. Whereas being nice just. People can tend to run over you and can just have no boundaries whatsoever. I mean, it’s not a great comparison, but it’s much like being a parent. 

Gordon Brewer [00:22:49]: 

You can be nice to your kids and be friendly to your kids and never say no. But guess what’s going to happen? You know, it’s not going to. It’s not going to turn out well in the long run, but you can. But if you’re kind and you set boundaries and you treat people with dignity and all of that sort of thing, that’s a much better outcome. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:09]: 

Absolutely. And, you know, again, not the best comparison because obviously other therapists are not children we know that. Just thinking about another example of clear communication where there’s a power imbalance. Right. That’s another similarity between parenting and being a boss is like, you’re having communication, but ultimately one of you actually has the majority of the power. I just got some resources from my own therapist who my partner and I are seeing for some parent coaching around parenting our child. And she gave me a list of. I think it was basically ineffective communication and effective communication. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:39]: 

And something that especially millennial parents, which I fall into that bucket that we tend to do, is we don’t want to tell somebody what to do. So we ask a question, but the question is really a command. But we stated as a question like, hey, hey, hey, Auggie, do you want to put on your shoes? I’m not asking if he wants to put on his shoes. Really, I need him to put on his shoes. We need to get out the door. Right. But because I’m not actually holding that and I say, do you want to put on your shoes? If he says no, what am I going to do next? Now I’m frustrated because I want to put on his shoes, but I didn’t actually tell him he needs to put on his shoes. I made it seem like he had a choice, but he doesn’t have a choice. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:15]: 

Right. So there’s a disservice there that we’re doing that creates confusion and friction and then all sorts of residual emotion when we’re not actually being directive, but we really need to give directions. It’s not a question of, like, well, do you think you could see 10 clients a week? The actual statement there is, I need you to see 10 clients a week. Can you make that happen? How do we make that happen? If you can’t make that happen? We need to talk about what that means. But I think, again, in our efforts to be nice, being nice can actually be quite unkind in the end. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:45]: 

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:47]: 

Yeah. And I love that distinction there. So, you know, I am curious, Gordon, thinking about these two examples that you’ve given us, these two mistakes, you know, of first of all, the kind of overly generous around compensation and then trying to be nice and not setting clear expectations for your team. How did you turn these things around and what did it take for you to turn these things around? Because I’m sure there’s many things, therapists listening right now who either applying this to their clients or who are group practice owners who are thinking like, oh, no, I’m doing those things right now. How did you fix this? 

Gordon Brewer [00:25:20]: 

Yeah, yeah. So one thing is, with what I was paying my therapist is I made the shift from having just contractors to having all employees. And so what I did to make that shift is I had to do a lot of prep for that. Because if you’re, if you’re paying employees, you do need to make sure you’ve got a reserve there. And so I did a deep dive into the numbers of looking at, okay, what is my practice is an insurance based practice. And so what we get paid per session varies. So I had to figure out what the average per session we were bringing in actually was. And so then I looked at that, and then I looked at what I would need to pay out as far as taxes and all that kind of thing. 

Gordon Brewer [00:26:11]: 

And I came up with a number. And so I knew when I was going to make the shift that I was going to probably lose some people. And I just had to accept that. But that also gave me the chance to kind of start over a little bit. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:30]: 

And that is a transition that I find some group practice owners have a huge amount of fear around. Is switching from that contractor to employee model partially, I think it’s because folks kind of overestimate what is required to be an employer versus a contractor. They think that contractor, it’s kind of like we were just talking about the nice versus kind. They think that it’s nice to have contractors because then the contractors can do what they want and they don’t have to worry about taxes and whatever. But there’s all these clear benefits to having employees instead. What have you noticed is the difference for you now that your team is made up of employees rather than contractors? 

Gordon Brewer [00:27:03]: 

Well, for one thing, I’m able to offer them more. As far as we now have, we have health insurance, we have all these benefits. And so that was basically how I presented it to people. Is that, okay, I know you would probably want some health insurance, you would want to have a retirement plan and you’d want to. And so I just did a comparison sheet. You’re making this as a contractor on average, and this is what you’d make as an employee. But out of what you’re making as a contractor, you’re also having to pay this much self employment tax and this much of this and that. And it actually, when it all came down to it, they came out better in the long run and that they were getting more for what they were doing than they were before. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:50]: 

Right. 

Gordon Brewer [00:27:50]: 

And also just switching from a contractor model to an employee model, you have much more control over what they do. Because as A contractor, at least here in the United States, you can’t really dictate how they do their job. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:05]: 

Yes. Which I do see is a struggle with group practice owners that I work with and money skills. Group practice owners, once we start to do that, deep dive into their numbers and they realize like, oh, wow, this person is seeing, seeing two clients a week. It’s costing me this much money in overhead and admin team and my own time to employ them, but they’re only seeing two people. With a contractor, you don’t have actually a lot of ability to enforce how many folks they see. And so again now you end up in this situation where they have this flexibility and yet it’s not sustainable. What you’re doing here is. Cannot go forward. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:41]: 

But as employees, you’re able to say, these are the expectations. This is when I need you to work. This is what the work needs to look like. Because it makes me think too, about quality of service. When you are an employer, when you’re the boss and they’re your employee, it’s very clear that you have a say over kind of how they work and the quality of their work, which is important because this is your brand and you want to make sure clients are getting good care. 

Gordon Brewer [00:29:02]: 

Right. And so I think as much as anything, it was also just being. I was just somewhat transparent with people saying, okay, look, the way we’re doing it now, we can’t sustain this. I’m not. We’ll have to close the doors in a year if we keep doing it this way. And I think a big thing was, is that I was able to keep some of the aspects of being a contractor in terms of flexibility of schedule. You decide what you. How many clients you want to see. 

Gordon Brewer [00:29:32]: 

But in order to be get the benefits, the health insurance, you need to see a minimum of 20 clients a week. You know, just being able to be transparent about the numbers and kind of show them how all that works to some degree and educate them on that. And so in the long run, it worked out all right. I lost. I’ve got one of the people that originally started with me, Krista. She’s a rock star and she just, she stuck it out and. But also she’s the kind of person that is. Which again, in thinking about your hiring, not to get too far off on a tangent, there are people out there that would really just want to see clients and not worry about the business side of things. 

Gordon Brewer [00:30:14]: 

And so that’s where Krista is. She doesn’t care about the business side of things. She’s not interested in that. But I love seeing clients and I love seeing, doing the clinical work. And so I’m just going to focus on that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:26]: 

Yes. Yeah. And that is as a group practice owner, I think your ideal kind of hire, Right. Somebody who just loves the clinical work, is so happy that you’re taking care of all these other parts that they have no interest in. You can take great care of them, give them benefits, create a great positive work environment, and it’s a very mutually beneficial relationship, Right? Yeah, exactly. I am curious, Gordon, thinking about the switch that it took. I’m hearing you were transparent with your team, which you kind of laid it out. How was it for you personally to have to lay out these numbers for your team, make this announcement? I assume it was kind of a bit of an announcement. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:05]: 

Do you remember what that process was like? 

Gordon Brewer [00:31:07]: 

Well, I think when I recognize that, okay, I’m not going to be able to sustain this if I keep doing what I’m doing and being very realistic about that. One of the things, fortunately, that I did early on and had the foresight to do, which was a good thing, was as I made sure I had put a lot of money in reserve. When I first went into private practice, I was really doing it very part time in that I was still working for an agency. Also, when I left the agency, I had another kind of part time administrative job that I was doing. And so I had income coming in, so I knew I had a steady state source of income. And so I devoted my first year in private practice as a solo practitioner of just taking that money and setting it aside. And so with just kind of that plan of, okay, at some point I’m going to go into this full time, but I want to make sure that I’ve got a reserve there. So that if I had struggled with getting clients or people didn’t call or for whatever disaster might happen, I was ready for that. 

Gordon Brewer [00:32:18]: 

So that was a big part of how I made the transition is I knew I had that in reserve. And also, like I said earlier, is accepting the fact that, okay, if I make these changes, I might need to literally start over from scratch as far as building the practice. But I also knew that, okay, I can build the practice, I’ve done it. And I knew that we have the client base and the fact that we, we were insurance based was gonna, it was gonna kind of work. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:49]: 

And so, yeah, and I, I have seen this happen. I’m thinking in a couple of my group practice owners, my students in money skills, group practice owners, who basically end up actively or the end result is that their practice kind of burns to the ground and then they have to rebuild it. And that is a scary moment as a business owner, seeing like your team say, like, no, actually I’d rather go work for, for Alma, or no, I don’t want to see more than two clients a week. But it gives you the chance to rebuild something that’s actually sustainable. And what I’ve observed with them too is the new team members who come in, they don’t know about the bad boundaries before and the other split that existed. You do get this fresh start when you have a big turnover because you get to build the practice. Right. Knowing all that you’ve learned along the way. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:35]: 

So a bit of a rebuild. And I’m curious for you, was it kind of like an exodus that happened at that time or did many folks stay on when you made that transition? 

Gordon Brewer [00:33:43]: 

I went through some ups and downs. I mean, I had, like I said, I had Krista, who’s been with me the longest, she stuck through it. But looking back now at that transition, none of the people that were here then are there now. And so, but what it allowed me do is to build something that was actually more appealing to people. You know, I thought this other way was, was a good way, but actually what I came up with later on was much better. And so the people I’ve had, I have now have been fairly long term employees and so they’ve stuck it out. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:19]: 

Yeah, because it sounds like what you’ve built now too is taking care of people at a deeper level. Right. Like when you have a team of contractors, it’s like, here’s all the money, do whatever you want with it. And some folks want that. And most of those folks will eventually be solo practitioners. Let’s be real. Yeah, right. Like as soon as they start to develop the confidence and skills to build their own business, they’re going to go make as much money as they can on their own. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:39]: 

But what I’m hearing is you’ve managed to now build something that it really is taking care of your team. Right. Like with you’re mentioning like health insurance and still like having that flexibility and I’m thinking probably your team environment, other benefits you’re offering and that ultimately is much more appealing and sustainable than contractors being kind of given the maximum amount of money. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:01]: 

Exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:02]: 

Gordon, thank you. This has been so helpful to hear your learning and I think for people listening too, it’s so nice to know that somebody who’s been so successful as you are and has built so many great things, has also had to learn through some trial and error. 

Gordon Brewer [00:35:17]: 

Right. And I would say, and I tell people this, people that might be starting out in private practice, never compare your beginning point to someone else’s middle point. Because. Yeah, because this whole story we’ve been telling today has said, okay, that was my beginning point. And I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot the hard way, as I like to say. And so. And you’ll make mistakes and just I think it’s important to look at it. Okay, what am I learning from this? What can I do to change courses, to change paths and that sort of thing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:50]: 

Precisely. Yeah. But it’s only by actually doing and, you know, building that we can make the mistakes and move on from them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:56]: 

Right, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:57]: 

So, Gordon, for folks who are listening, who want to get further into your world, learn more about what you do, can you tell them where to find you, tell them about your podcast? 

Gordon Brewer [00:36:05]: 

Sure. The easiest way is just simply go to my website, practiceoftherapy.com and you’ll find the links there to get in touch with me and that sort of thing. You can email me@gordon practiceoftherapy.com and also find us on social media, on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, I think our main focus areas. And so, yeah, you can find us there. 

Linzy Bonham [00:36:32]: 

Great. Thank you so much for joining me today, Gordon. 

Gordon Brewer [00:36:34]: 

Well, thanks for having me, Linzy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:36:43]: 

I really appreciate Gordon sharing some of his own mistakes made on the podcast today. It’s always so helpful to hear folks who have figured it out talk about what they’ve had to go through, what they did wrong. And I do think that what he shared about today, you know, both that mistake of offering too much financially, which you know, you can do as a solo practitioner by setting a fee too low for your clients, you know, thinking about their financial situation before you think of your own. Or you can do it in the context that he was talking about, of offering too generous of a split. When you employ other therapists, that is just such a common mistake for us. As Gordon and I talked about, as helper types, our tendency tends to be to over give. So that’s always something to maybe stop and be mindful of before you set a fee or if you’re bringing on a team member for the first time, before you set a feature that split, stop and ask yourself, am I being overly generous here? Am I giving too much? And what would actually be the sustainable version of these numbers? Because I think that as therapist types, our tendency is going to be to over give. So maybe just assume that you’re over giving and stop and look at how you can actually make a sustainable offer, whether it’s to your clients or to team members, so you don’t have to go and change it later and have hard conversations of I need to raise your fee by $50 an hour or I need to change the way that we’re doing splits because this just isn’t working. 

Linzy Bonham [00:38:08]: 

I also love him sharing about that challenge that he had, you know, with some team members around, setting expectations and boundaries and being clear about what he actually needed from his team. I know that in my myself I have experienced that. You know, that’s certainly a growth edge for me. And I see that with so many, many of the group practice owners that I work with specifically around, you know, having to learn how to be a boss. Most of us in group practice, we are baby bosses, to put it a certain way. We’ve probably been bosses for less than five years and there is so much to learn in those early years of being a boss and so many mistakes that we’re going to make. I know that I’m certainly doing my own learning and growing in this area and I think, you know, Gordon’s so story about having to correct fees with his therapist, have that hard conversation, having folks come and go, realizing that some folks just aren’t a fit. These are all really helpful learnings that I think many of us will go through and maybe we can learn from from Gordon and make some of these adjustments even sooner than he was able to. 

Linzy Bonham [00:39:11]: 

It’s always nice to hear from folks who are just a few steps ahead of you or many steps ahead of you to see if we can adjust course a little bit sooner, get ourselves into that sustainable version of our practice that much sooner. So appreciate Gordon coming on the podcast today and you can check him out on the practice of therapy. As he said, he’s almost at 400 podcast episodes. Just such a lovely warm human. So you can check him out. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapy ists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, my free on demand masterclass is the best place for you to start. 

Linzy Bonham [00:39:50]: 

You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

I mean, the first phrase that comes to mind for me, Kim, hearing about where you’re at is new level, new devil. 

Kim Torrence [00:00:04]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:05]: 

Have you heard that phrase before? No. No. So new level, new devil. It’s like you did all this work. You got off insurance panels, you’ve set a fee, your practice is full enough that now you have creativity and bandwidth to think about something additional. And now here’s a new set of challenges that have come up, and they are kind of the same challenges as before. But as you say, this is the 2.0. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:41]: 

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Kim Torrence. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:14]: 

Kim is a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists from a few years back. She’s also a trauma therapist who specializes in burnout prevention and perfectionism recovery. And today, Kim and I dig into the challenges she’s having about pricing group offers. So this is about pricing an offer within your therapy practice. So still practicing as a therapist, but going from one to many. And we dig into some of the mindset barriers that are coming up for her as she’s thinking about this pricing. We talk about the current political climate and how hard it feels to set pricing when people are having a really hard time and lots of scary things are going on. We do talk about the idea today also of New level, New Devil. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:58]: 

You know, sometimes we overcome something at a certain level and then we go to do a new thing and new challenges come up. And sometimes our old challenges come up in new ways. Here is my conversation with Kim Torrence. So, Kim, welcome to the podcast. 

Kim Torrence [00:02:20]: 

Hi, Linzy. Great to be with you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:22]: 

Yes, I’m very excited to be with you again. We were just kind of trying to figure out how long it’s been since we’ve actually had a conversation. It feels like three years, but we have no actual data to support that roundabouts about that, about that. So, Kim what would be helpful for us to focus on today during our time together? 

Kim Torrence [00:02:43]: 

Well, first, I just want to thank you so much for this opportunity to be with you and have this conversation. I feel like I’m having the 2.0 version of our time three years ago where I’m in private practice. I’m out of network, which took me a lot to a lot of work to get off insurance. I had a lot come up around that. And I feel like I’m having a new iteration of those mindset things as I’m moving towards offering groups. There’s a lot of creative ideas that I have, like different support groups. It feels like really needed for this time. And I’m having some discomfort and tension coming up around the fee because just folding into the mix, the context of the times that we’re living in America right now is experiencing the autocratic coup. 

Kim Torrence [00:03:33]: 

Federal workers have been fired, people are. There’s a lot of job insecurity, climate crisis. So I’m just holding those things in mind and really wanting to be accessible. So even in my first offerings, they’ve been free or donation based. And now so I’m doing like these self care, somatic self care sessions for therapists. Yeah. And it’s, it’s a lot of fun and it’s, it’s fun to put together just all the things that I have found helpful. But I’m charging let’s say like $20 an hour, which feels okay because it’s a lunchtime thing. 

Kim Torrence [00:04:06]: 

It’s not really, it’s not really something I’m trying to. I’m just having fun with it, to be honest. But I am working towards. There’s a big offering coming up where I’m folding in Somatic experiencing IFS and ssp, the safe and sound protocol and. Yeah. And it just feels uncomfortable for me for some reason to put a fee of like $65, you know, per person or. But the thing also I want to say is that I, I want to offer a small group. Like, I really don’t want to have a lot of people. 

Kim Torrence [00:04:35]: 

So then when I look at the numbers. Yes. It ends up. Yeah. Kind of being, Being a factor. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:41]: 

Yeah, of course, of course. The math. There’s some math there. And if it’s a group of a hundred people, the fee could look different than a group of six. So I mean, the first phrase that comes to mind for me, Kim, hearing about where you’re at is new level, new devil. 

Kim Torrence [00:04:53]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:53]: 

Have you heard that phrase before? No. No. So new level, new devil. It’s like, you know, we’ve. You did all this work, you got off insurance panels, you know, you’ve set a fee, your practice is full enough that now you have creativity and bandwidth to think about something additional. And now here’s a new set of challenges that have come up, and they are kind of the same challenges as before. But as you say, this is the 2.0. It’s the 2.0 version. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:17]: 

Now you’re thinking about expanded offers and that the concerns about pricing and accessibility. And I’m hearing your attunement to this time and all the things that are happening is making you really pause on setting pricing. Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:05:32]: 

And another thing, I just. If I can add one more piece to it, just the cognitive dissonance, like this strange experience of business as usual. But the. But the building’s on fire. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:42]: 

Okay. Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:05:43]: 

In terms of just, like, what’s going down in this country right now. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:47]: 

Yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:05:47]: 

So, yeah. So, like, with this sense of urgency. Because I do believe that empathy is the. Is the cure. Like, empathy is the antidote to everything. And that’s exactly why Elon Musk says empathy is the woke virus. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:00]: 

Right. 

Kim Torrence [00:06:00]: 

You know? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:01]: 

Yes, yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:06:02]: 

So, you know, I think that there’s. There’s, like, a real need, and people are on their phones, and, like, there’s so much isolation. There’s, like, the loneliness pandemic. So that’s just adding to the, like, sense of, you know, I really want to help. I want to show up, and I want to answer to this moment. So it feels weird to, like, also raise my feet, which I haven’t done since I last worked with you and Tiffany McClain. And no shade at all. To anyone who, like, I don’t mean to say that in a way, to anyone who does have a higher fee than mine. 

Kim Torrence [00:06:33]: 

I’m not trying. Or people who are raising their fees. It’s no shade to them. I’m just saying for me, in me, it feels weird to be like, you know what? I’m gonna raise my fee right now. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:41]: 

Okay. Yeah. Cause. And is that your individual fee that you’re thinking about that you’re not going to raise right now? Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:06:46]: 

And I just haven’t raised it in a while. In addition to all this, it’s like, I could probably, should probably raise my fee, which is 225. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:54]: 

Okay. So, you know, I’m hearing more of kind of those context pieces. It’s like, people are lonely. We need more empathy. Shit’s kind of on fire. And yet we still have to, like, do stuff. And it actually Makes me think about war times. If you look at how people adapt to living in, like, literal war, where it’s like, yeah, the bakery might get bombed, but I need to go get bread, so I’m still going to, like, get up and live my life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:17]: 

That’s a much more extreme version of what we have to do during times of, like, political instability or other kinds of crises. Like, Covid was kind of the same. I remember a lot of memes during COVID of, like, the world’s on fire, like, time to go to work. I don’t know. Like, yeah, like, you know, this kind of idea of business as usual while everything’s burning down around you. And, you know, this certainly feels like one of those moments, again with the political climate, but something I will also reflect to you as you’re describing what you’re offering. And the climate is like, what you’re offering right now is more valuable and impactful than ever. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:53]: 

In terms of, you know, your ability to meet this moment and kind of be like, an antidote to what people are suffering from. I’m hearing there’s immense value in what you’re offering. Do you feel that? 

Kim Torrence [00:08:04]: 

Well, first, thank you for saying that. And yes, I mean, I do. I. It’s like, it feels so valuable. Like, what we’re all doing, not just me, but, like, what therapists have to offer feels so incredibly valuable that there’s, like, no price. Like, it’s so needed. And I don’t mean that in a, like, save the world mentality type of way. It just. 

Kim Torrence [00:08:23]: 

It just feels like that there isn’t men suffering. So. Yeah, it does. It feels really valuable. But, like, I just struggle, too, with, like, just being like, we’re in this web, you know, this web of capitalism. I think that’s a part of it for me, too, is like, looking at someone like, how someone like Donald Trump has become so powerful. You know, it’s like this is the system that enables that. So, like, being in it just feels weird and yucky. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:48]: 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, you know, this is something that I see all of us who tend to be more kind of empathetic and also idealistic. Like, we see the world as we want it to be, as it could be. You know, like, how do we breathe this air and exist within this system and still find ways to live our values and be well? 

Kim Torrence [00:09:08]: 

Yeah. I feel kind of like some emotion bubbling up as you say that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:11]: 

Yeah, yeah. What emotions? Yeah. Good, you came. Came prepared. Yeah. What is that that you’re noticing? 

Kim Torrence [00:09:20]: 

Just like, immense caring. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:22]: 

Yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:09:23]: 

Yeah. And there’s, like, a lot of helplessness, too. Yeah. Seeing what’s happening with ice and people being hurt and, like, the. Just the profound suffering. Yeah. And just. I think that’s part of it is like, wanting to do something in response to that, even if it’s just so small. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:41]: 

Okay, so these groups that you’re looking, that you have been offering, they’re for therapists specifically. 

Kim Torrence [00:09:49]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:49]: 

Okay. And I’m hearing you’ve been doing them, like, over lunchtime, which I also hear is a way, just by the way, of you dismissing their value. Okay. You’re like, they’re over lunchtime. I mean, I should be paying them for coming to see me during their lunchtime. 

Kim Torrence [00:10:02]: 

Yeah. I mean, it’s. Because it’s. We end up dancing, you know, like, I kind of titrate it. We start with, like, we do, like, grounding, and then we end up. Because I really do believe that play and fun is important and necessary. Sorry, I didn’t mean to talk to you, though. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:16]: 

No, no, no. But yeah, I did just want to reflect that. I feel like that’s part of a story as to why this would not be something valuable. That little comment that. 

Kim Torrence [00:10:23]: 

You totally get that. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. That’s true. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:26]: 

So as we think about pricing, because, like, we need to ground, too, in what you need to be well and how to make this sustainable. Because I’m hearing this, like, immense well of giving that you. You have. Right. That you want to give. We know that none of us can give infinitely and none of us can pour from an empty cup. Right. And so I want to ground a little bit as we’re thinking about this pricing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:51]: 

And I’m hearing there’s this current offer. There’s also a bigger offer brewing inside of you of what you need to be solid and well so you can keep doing this great work in the world. Right. So if we think about financials, let’s. Let’s be with numbers a little bit. I’m hearing you’ve been charging, you said $20 an hour. $20 for the workshop. 

Kim Torrence [00:11:11]: 

For the workshop, yeah. And then I was offering them free up until June, I think. Okay. Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:18]: 

So you have been doing this for free, which is always a weird thing, too, I will say, when we’ve been doing something for free, to then assign monetary value to it. 

Kim Torrence [00:11:24]: 

Very weird. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:25]: 

It’s very weird. Yeah. Because it’s kind of like. And this is, I think, like a general problem that therapists, we have in general, is, like, often we’ve been doing this kind of emotional caretaking work for decades and then we become therapists and suddenly we’re supposed to charge for it and actually charge well. So, you know, I think that this is a common barrier that we face at multiple levels. But you’ve been doing these workshops for free and you don’t want to keep doing them for free, I assume. 

Kim Torrence [00:11:48]: 

Correct. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:48]: 

Tell me why you don’t want to keep doing them for free. 

Kim Torrence [00:11:50]: 

Well, I do feel that it’s a lot of work. I mean, just in terms of putting it on your schedule, taking that time, putting a lot of. I put a lot of thought into things. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:00]: 

Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:12:00]: 

And then just like there is a part of me that wants to feel there’s a value to what you know, there is that wanting that the value to be assigned. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:10]: 

Like you’re putting value out. 

Kim Torrence [00:12:12]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:12]: 

And you’re not getting direct compensation back. 

Kim Torrence [00:12:16]: 

Correct. Yeah, I think I started to feel that and that’s what made me move into like, you know what, let’s. It’s time to put a value and start charging. But I think the thinking was like, therapists don’t. Well, in general, either they have their own thing, their own way of self care, or it’s really hard to get them to. I even remember back when I worked in community mental health how hard it was for me to get people to go eat lunch away from their computer. Or I would do these like salsa. Lunch break. 

Kim Torrence [00:12:43]: 

Like lunch breaks. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:44]: 

Oh, fun. 

Kim Torrence [00:12:45]: 

And like the only people that would come would be the support staff. None of therapist, like one therapist would come because everyone was too busy. So I guess, I guess I think like I was setting it the price based on incentivizing, trying, really trying to get people to, to participate in self care. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:01]: 

Yeah. And I was that person too at the agency who was like, I’m having lunch now. Anybody want to come? Like I’ll be in the lunchroom trying to make it sound like it’s like some rager party. Yeah. Because we do know that caregivers and therapists tend to get overly absorbed in what they’re doing. They don’t stop to take a 10 minute break even though it’ll do good things for them. And I’m going to actually say, Kim, that those folks are not the target audience of what you’re doing. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:24]: 

So the person who is not yet at a place where they can make themselves stop and take a break and where they’ve identified that not only do they need to do something good for themselves, but they’ve decided they’re going to do it. That person, I would say, is actually back in like a pre contemplation stage and like you’re not going to be able to entice them out even for no money. 

Kim Torrence [00:13:44]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:45]: 

Price is not the barrier for them. 

Kim Torrence [00:13:47]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:48]: 

Those barriers are internal, emotional. That’s not actually the problem that you’re able to solve for them. And no amount of pricing is going to change that. Right. Hanging out with you in the lunchroom was free. People still didn’t do it. 

Kim Torrence [00:14:00]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:00]: 

Same here. And we’re awesome. Right. So. So that’s the first thing I want to reflect back to you is the, the people who already have bought in to the idea of like, yes, it is worth my time to stop and take care of myself and be with myself. Price is not going to actually be the thing that free or not free or $20 or $50 is, I don’t think gonna make much of a difference to them. 

Kim Torrence [00:14:26]: 

Okay, good point. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:28]: 

Right. Because they’re already ready to receive the value you have to offer. And again, there’s going to be all this work that they might have had to do to get there that you can’t do for them. 

Kim Torrence [00:14:36]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:37]: 

Right. So we’re going to exclude those folks who you can’t get from their desks. They are no longer the people you’re thinking about as you’re creating this offer. 

Kim Torrence [00:14:44]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:44]: 

Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:14:44]: 

Thank you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:45]: 

Tell me about your ideal folks who receive this offer for you. Who are they? Who’s your ideal client here? 

Kim Torrence [00:14:50]: 

Deep feeling, deep thinking individuals, whether therapists or. I am really enjoying working with therapists just because I, I feel a lot of compassion and camaraderie and totally. I mean, obviously I’m a therapist, so I understand some of the struggles. So deep feeling, deep thinking people who care about the world and want to show up and, and make it a better place or just that want. You know what it is, is it’s about authenticity. I mean, I really enjoy working with people who have childhood trauma, specifically come from family of origin dynamics where there was narcissism or other antagonistic relationship styles. And they are trying to be the, they want to be their full selves in their work and their relationships. And for therapists even like being able to face their fears. 

Kim Torrence [00:15:39]: 

I mean, kind of sounds like 80 right now, but to, to just really be their full self without fear. And yeah, that’s my ideal person. Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:49]: 

And is that for these therapy workshops specifically? Is this like your therapist audience that you’re considering or would this be. 

Kim Torrence [00:15:56]: 

So for the big offer, the 10. So it’s a 10 week small group. That one I feel like, which is combining se, IFS and ssp. That one, I feel like I want to have that offer and then adapt it to therapists and adapt it to, to non therapists. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:17]: 

Okay, so this could be for a couple different audiences. 

Kim Torrence [00:16:19]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:20]: 

Yeah. Modifying it. Okay, so that’s your big offer. Let’s start with your little offer. Because I feel like your little offer could be a good place for us to test out and think about pricing before you get into the bigger one. Your little offer, it has been for therapists, correct? Yes. Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:16:34]: 

I’ve been calling it Somatic Self care. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:36]: 

Okay. Okay. And those folks who come, I’m curious, those therapists, are they private practice folks? Are they in agencies? Who are they? 

Kim Torrence [00:16:45]: 

Private practice. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:46]: 

Okay. Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:16:47]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:47]: 

So they’re private practice folks. They’re coming to you. What are they getting from that one hour with you? What are they taking away with them? 

Kim Torrence [00:16:54]: 

What I’m getting back is that it feels really good to move because there’s a lot of movement in it. One person said it really was helping them not panic because they’re really, really feeling the, the ice kidnappings. So what they’re really getting out of it is the, the connecting and the moving. Because we start, like I said, we start out with just some grounding stuff and we move towards more like joyful dancing movement, like mindful movement, AKA dancing in this context, in this group. Yeah. Like so someone told me it felt liberatory. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:34]: 

So them feeling liberatory. I’m going to focus in on the fact that these folks are therapists. Right. Because what you have Here is a B2B offer. It is a business to business offer. 

Kim Torrence [00:17:45]: 

Oh, okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:45]: 

Yeah. Because they are showing up on their lunch break between sessions. They are taking care of themselves. Right. And because you’re specifically targeting therapists, they are folks who are in business. And them being less panicky, more grounded, joyful in themselves is going to have positive impacts in their private practice. So tell me, what are the positive impacts in their private practice of them attending these sessions with you? 

Kim Torrence [00:18:12]: 

Oh, well, I think that it’s supportive to holding space for clients. I’m saying that they’re not, they’re not saying that to me, but if you ask me that, that’s what comes up. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:23]: 

Yes. Yeah. If they’re not panicking themselves, they’re going to be able to be more present in their clinical work. Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:18:28]: 

Okay. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:29]: 

Because as you’re thinking about this offer, I’m thinking about pricing, but I’m also thinking about part of pricing is also being able to help your customers, your clients, understand the value to them. B2B is a great space in which to do business because folks are almost always more willing to invest in their business and their professional aspects of themselves than they are in themselves as individuals. Yeah, Right. Which is why you can see these coaches who charge like $50,000 a year for you to be able to chat with them. Because if you make big changes in your business, your business is a machine that helps you generate money. And you could actually see that 50,000 come back if you’re working with the right person and you do the right things. 

Kim Torrence [00:19:09]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:09]: 

So you are helping them not just to be more grounded as humans and be happier and healthier, but you’re also helping them to be more sustainable in their practices and serve their clients better. 

Kim Torrence [00:19:22]: 

Yeah, thanks. I hadn’t thought about it that way. Yeah, I’m still at the agency trying to get people to take a lunch break. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:28]: 

Yes. Yeah. You haven’t caught up to yourself. Right. Because, like, if we think about you, let’s think about you as your own client here. Is client the word you use? What is the word you’re thinking with these folks? I use the word students for folks who do msft. What is your language around these people? 

Kim Torrence [00:19:42]: 

I hadn’t even thought of participants. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:44]: 

Participants. Yeah. So let’s think about you as your own participant, because you did note earlier that some of these folks may have traits and needs that are similar to your own. Surprise, surprise. So let’s think about you. You are a therapist who charges 220 an hour. 

Kim Torrence [00:20:02]: 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:02]: 

225. Sorry, my bad. 225 an hour. Right. So one hour of clinical work for you brings in 225 of revenue into your practice. Right. And if you think about yourself, if you have a support in your life that allows you to be more grounded and joyful and present with your clients, how much is that worth to you?

Kim Torrence [00:20:22]: 

It’s priceless. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:23]: 

Yeah. Right. Like, you need that so badly. Doing the work. 

Kim Torrence [00:20:27]: 

It’s everything. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:28]: 

It’s everything. Right. So just to, like, put these two things side by side, this support, that is everything to the folks who need it, who are serving folks during this tumultuous, stressful time in history is worth everything. So to put it beside the pricing we’ve talked about so far, is it worth more than $0? 

Kim Torrence [00:20:49]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:50]: 

Okay. Is it worth more than $20? 

Kim Torrence [00:20:52]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:53]: 

Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:20:54]: 

Feels really weird to say that, though. It just does. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:57]: 

Yeah. Yeah, it’s worth more than $20, they’re still having a full experience even if they’re in a group. Right. The group does not detract from their experience. In fact, the group probably actually amplifies their experience because they’re having all those beautiful parts that come with a group. Right. Like universality and that, like co creation of energy and inspiration from other people who aren’t just you. So group is not less than individual. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:18]: 

Group is different. And it gives us different things that we actually can’t offer our clients or participants as individuals. So we’re going to play with pricing a little bit because I want to think about your financial needs. Knowing now that this offer is priceless, something that allows clinicians to keep doing their work. How much is that worth to them over decades? Thousands and thousands and thousands. Right. You’re not going to charge them 100,000 for this offer even if it could maybe allow them to keep doing $100,000 more of work. Because you know, the market is not going to bear that if we want to use economic terms. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:50]: 

Nobody’s going to have $100,000 to pay you for this, even if it’s worth that much. Let’s think about pricing. How many folks would be in one of these midday groups? How many participants? 

Kim Torrence [00:22:02]: 

I mean, right now with the summer, I feel like, you know, and also because I’ll be honest, I’ve procrastinate when it comes to marketing. So it’s like maybe I’m marketing it like two weeks before. So I’ve had, when it was free, I had a lot more people and it was right when everyone was getting fired, all the federal workers were getting fired. So at that time, maybe 18 people. But now the last month I had four. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:26]: 

Okay, so you have four people attending that group. So we know your clinical fee is 225 an hour. 

Kim Torrence [00:22:33]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:33]: 

Right. We do not want you getting paid less than 225 for that hour of work. How do you think about that kind of work? Do you find it more demanding than one on one? Less demanding. Do you feel it’s equal just to anchor us to the other type of service you offer? 

Kim Torrence [00:22:46]: 

Yeah, no, I, I, I’m coming to really enjoy it. Like I love it. It’s very different because there’s the group, the magic of the group or the power of the group to be a bear witness or just hold space? Yeah, I enjoy it. And then of course, just people’s responses after we move or sometimes we’ll chant or sing, like doing vocalizations and stuff. So it feels amazing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:12]: 

So I’m hearing that for you, it’s actually feeling like pretty light work right now because it’s so positive, right? 

Kim Torrence [00:23:20]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:20]: 

Which doesn’t mean it’s less valuable, by the way. Like, it doesn’t mean we should charge less for it. But I was curious if it was like something that felt like a much heavier lift for you than a one on one. And it doesn’t. 

Kim Torrence [00:23:29]: 

I think the word, what comes to mind is satisfying. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:33]: 

Beautiful. 

Kim Torrence [00:23:33]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:34]: 

Okay. So just as a starting anchor point then, if I take your normal hourly fee for a one on one, I divide it by four people, it would be 56, 25 per person. What do you notice with that number? 

Kim Torrence [00:23:48]: 

Yeah, I do, I do notice kind of like a internal act. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:53]: 

What is the act about? What’s the story that goes with the act? 

Kim Torrence [00:23:56]: 

Yeah, it has to do with like, are people going to pay that? 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:59]: 

It’s a good question. So you’ll put out that pricing. You know, this, this is the scenario. You put out the pricing. People don’t sign up. Then what? 

Kim Torrence [00:24:08]: 

A couple therapy sessions later, I probably, I mean, I’ll be taking that one straight to therapy for sure. Yeah, I think that what comes to mind. So I, I, I love ifs and I do that in my personal work. So I have the part of me that struggles with worthiness and then I have the part of me that’s like, this is about marketing. This is not about you. And also because I’ve had people say positive things. So. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:37]: 

Yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:24:38]: 

And if it is crap, then you just work on your game. You know, there’s. So I have that part right there to say. It’s like, this is not personal. It’s about just being practical. So that’s there too, along with the actual, the act. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:52]: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is the act from that worthiness part? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And it’s really helpful to notice that. Right. Because for those vulnerable parts of us, you know, that are usually young, vulnerable, I think those parts of us can get confused about what it means if you put out an offer and people don’t buy. Right. Those parts of us do get confused and think that it’s about us and go to a shame place and like it’s some sort of, like, what would the word be? It was some sort of clear judgment on our value. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:24]: 

Right. Like here it is. I’ve been looking, I’ve been looking for evidence that I’m worthless and here it is. Right. Those parts of us, we all have variations of that. 

Kim Torrence [00:25:33]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:33]: 

And they’re, they’re around, but I don’t think that’s actually what it means. I’m going to go a little bit more with your marketing part on this one. If you put it out for, you know, we, we would round it, let’s say that we make it $58 an hour. If you put it out for $58 an hour and your current people don’t sign up, what can you do? 

Kim Torrence [00:25:54]: 

I mean I have not been on my marketing game. That is the truth. So I would work more on helping people understand. Just showing what the value is in my marketing, whether in writing or, or I guess going on podcasts or whatever feels, feels right, but just so people get a sense of it. And I think also, okay, so there’s this like other part of me that’s like coming in saying. Because the thing about mindfulness is like everyone knows, like everyone, everyone can practice self care on their own. Right. But the whole value of this is that it’s together. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:31]: 

Yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:26:31]: 

This is about community, it’s about co regulation, it’s about not being isolated. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:36]: 

And I think also it’s about the container to actually do it. Yeah, right. A lot of times when we create offers, like a lot of what I see the value of what we can offer in money skills for therapists, for instance is like, this is the time. If you show up at this time, you will either get coaching and hear other people get coaching about money and you’ll be able to be part of that kind of experience or you’ll have the space to actually work on money. That container, all folks have to do then is showing up to the container and you help them get into that space. Right. Where we know that often left to our own devices, we don’t do the things that are good for us. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:07]: 

For a thousand reasons. So yeah, I think there’s a marketing piece here that hasn’t happened yet, but I’m already hearing pieces of what that marketing is going to be about. Of what is this experience? What do folks take away from it? What does it mean to their practice that they have this? What are some of the things that are going to be their objections that you can speak to in it? What are the things that usually get in the way of taking care of themselves that this offer solves for them? If you lay out all of those pieces and the price at the bottom of that page is $56, I’m gonna be like, fuck, I’ll take five. You know, like that’s a no brainer. 

Kim Torrence [00:27:44]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:45]: 

What do you notice with me saying that? 

Kim Torrence [00:27:47]: 

Oh, totally. Like I just as you’re saying that it’s. I haven’t done any. My marketing has been posting in local Facebook therapist groups. That’s it. And like, it’s not been. I haven’t been doing any of what. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:00]: 

You just described because when I think about it too, I think about it also as idea. So I’ve been reading a book called the Personal MBA because I know how to party. And in that book. 

Kim Torrence [00:28:21]: 

Oh, that was great. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:22]: 

They. They talk about different, different things that can be sold. And that’s been really helpful for me to clarify even just what I sell. Like, what am I selling when I sell money skills therapists or money skills group practice owners. And there’s this idea of options. And I always thought options was just a thing in trading that I didn’t understand. And I was like, oh, I don’t do that one. I do ETFs. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:41]: 

I’m going to stay over here. But options, when you sell an option, what you’re selling is the opportunity for somebody to do something that they may or may not take. So, for instance, like concert tickets are options. When I buy a ticket for a concert, I’m buying a spot at that concert. It’s mine. But if I don’t show up, it was still my spot that was saved. 

Kim Torrence [00:29:00]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:00]: 

I bought the option to attend the concert. And if I use it or not, what I was purchasing was a spot there. So it does make me think about this. It’s like to me, what you’re describing is not something that would just be good for somebody once. It’s something that would be good for somebody every week or every two weeks or once a month, whatever frequency makes sense. And I think if you offered me, okay, for six months, you have the opportunity to come to these workshops, like on a weekly, bi weekly, monthly basis. This is the package for you to be able to come. It’s going to be a lower price than that one off price times however many offers. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:35]: 

But I know that I have this anchor point and if I just put it in my schedule and if I show up, you are going to guide me in sinking into myself and doing these things that are good for me but are hard and I’m not going to do them by myself, that is immensely valuable. You are creating there the container and the energy for me to take care of myself in a way that I’m probably not going to be able to motivate myself all alone, sitting in my office with an inbox in front of me and a few phone calls to return. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:01]: 

Right? Yeah, that’s super helpful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:03]: 

Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:04]: 

To think of it that way. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:05]: 

Yeah. Part of it, too, is thinking about. Yeah. How do you. How do you position this to people in a way that helps them understand the value, that makes it easy for them to say yes. And you’re setting them up to succeed. You’re helping them understand. Almost like the appropriate clinical dosage. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:20]: 

One therapy session. Not gonna do it. Weekly therapy. Better. Right. So I think about this too. It’s like, as people start to hear about your offer, I think it also makes sense that you do have an option that is like the larger commitment that is gonna help them do the thing that’s good for them, even when they’re busy and distracted. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:37]: 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know what? This is landing for me as like, oh, yeah, this is sales. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:45]: 

It is sales. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:46]: 

This is sales. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:47]: 

Surprise. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:51]: 

Oh, my gosh. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:52]: 

Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:52]: 

And I just don’t even have that. Those neurons, if they ever existed, are like fr. They’re not active. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:59]: 

Yeah. 

Kim Torrence [00:30:59]: 

In my brain. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:00]: 

Maybe they’re baby neurons. They need to be nurtured. 

Kim Torrence [00:31:03]: 

And there is such a thing as plasticity. So. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:05]: 

Yes, A hundred percent. So. Yes. So I think here, my thinking is pricing. Do not price it less than you would get for a clinical hour. That’s your floor. I think 56 is like your floor. Right. 

Kim Torrence [00:31:17]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:18]: 

But spending some time yourself with really laying out the value. That’s your marketing materials have, like, a beautiful description. Help me understand what it means for me. Not just for me, but for my business. Speak to my objections, but also speak to the things that I know are true. Like, let’s be real, you’re not going to get to this on your own because you have on your plate. Let us help you connect with your deeper self, whatever it is. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:42]: 

Lay out that value and then that number at the bottom, I think is not going to be a shock to anybody who is nodding along with your copy. 

Kim Torrence [00:31:51]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:51]: 

What are you noticing? 

Kim Torrence [00:31:53]: 

No, it just feels very. Makes so much sense, everything you’re saying. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:57]: 

Yeah. I think you haven’t given this offer the credit that it deserves yet, but taking the time to stop and just write down what already you know about it. And also, I would say, solicit some testimonials. Talk to some of your people who’ve come many times about. Okay, what is their experience with it? How do they feel different before and after? What does this mean for their practice? They haven’t said it to you, but if you ask them, they’re going to have things to say about it. Get some testimonials and I’m thinking like a little just like Word document sales page. I know you’ve also worked with Meganson. I say also worked. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:30]: 

We’re just buddies. I hang out with her for free. I’m very lucky. She sent me her sales page that she had for her retreat that she’s running in the fall because I’m also going to be running a retreat for group practice owners in the fall. So she shared her sales page with me and it’s just a Google document, but somehow she’s just made the background a pretty color. I’m going to ask ChatGPT how I do that shortly. And she’s just written the description. So it’s not even a website that’s hosted. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:53]: 

It’s just a link to a Google Doc, but it looks like a website so it’d be super simple to make. And it’s maybe like three pages, four pages long. And off the bottom of that, the price at the bottom, you’re like obviously worth it. 

Kim Torrence [00:33:05]: 

Right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:06]: 

This is sales. It’s sales. It’s helping them really understand the value and by the time you get to that price at the bottom, it’s going to be a no brainer for them. 

Kim Torrence [00:33:15]: 

Okay. Yeah, that’s awesome. That makes a lot of sense. If I’m not saying anything, it’s because I’m just absorbing and also thinking like the tech stuff is another. I don’t even. Yeah, I need to get, I need to get help. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:31]: 

Maybe, maybe. Or you can just make a Word document. 

Kim Torrence [00:33:34]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:34]: 

Like a, like a Google. 

Kim Torrence [00:33:35]: 

Yeah, I want to do exactly what you just said. That sounds so, so simple. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:39]: 

So simple. Maybe throw in an image or two. 

Kim Torrence [00:33:41]: 

Okay, that’s it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:42]: 

Like don’t get in your own way. Right. I think as therapists, like we tend to be perfectionistic people and we get in our own way. We’re like, oh, I’ve got to like build a website for it and I need to get branding done. And it’s like you don’t need any of that. Like literally none. I’ve experimented with selling like some of my biggest offers off of Google Docs and it works if people already have a sense of who you are or they hear a great thing about you from someone else. They don’t need like flashy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:06]: 

They just need to like know the actual information and be able to say yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:34:11]: 

Okay. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:11]: 

You can always make it complicated and beautiful later. But I don’t think that’s actually what’s important right now. 

Kim Torrence [00:34:16]: 

Okay. That’s helpful to hear. I mean that’s how I even was paralyzed with perfectionism before I even started launching these things. And I was like, I don’t have a sales pin. And I had someone just encourage me to just start. Just do it. And yeah, you’re. You’re right. 

Kim Torrence [00:34:31]: 

I mean, it’s kind of amazing when you think about it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:34]: 

Yes. 

Kim Torrence [00:34:35]: 

It’s like, oh, you can actually just do a Google Doc. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:37]: 

You can and you should. Yep. So, Kim, coming to the end of our time together today, what are you taking away? 

Kim Torrence [00:34:46]: 

Well, I feel less anxious. I feel less, like, conflicted about the price. I feel encouraged to. To really honor the value of these offerings, and especially this one that I was, like, not even talking about you. You really helped me to see the value of these. What I was calling lunchtime hour. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:08]: 

Yeah. By the way, we’re gonna get rid of that. That’s not in the marketing material. Okay. 

Kim Torrence [00:35:12]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:13]: 

Thank you. 

Kim Torrence [00:35:14]: 

Thank you so much. Yeah, I. So, yeah, like, I didn’t even think I would come into this call. Walking away with thinking about that the somatic self care offering as something to really focus on and build up. So that. Yeah, that’s. I have a lot to just, you know, going back to the marketing and just honoring the value that. That’s what I’m walking away with. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:37]: 

Yeah. And I think working out some of these pieces with a smaller offer and is going to then help you work on that bigger offer, and it’s also going to help you grow your list and your audience for folks who will be totally ready for that bigger offer from you. 

Kim Torrence [00:35:52]: 

Okay. This was so helpful. Thank you so much. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:56]: 

You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Kim, it’s lovely to see you again. Thank you for coming on the podcast and letting other folks learn with you and be in these conversations with you. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you. This conversation with Kim today reminds me of how easy it is for us to dismiss our own talents and the value of what we do, even with Kim starting to talk about it as, like, just like this. This thing that’s just over the lunch hour, you know, which we. 

Linzy Bonham [00:36:24]: 

We talked about and kind of joked about as a way to dismiss its value, you know, as though something that happens over lunchtime is inherently not valuable. As therapists and health practitioners, we are so skilled and so knowledgeable in our areas of expertise, you know, in our niche, and we are so good at the specific thing that we do, and it’s so easy to forget that that thing has a huge impact on other people and is a skill that most people don’t have and something that most people cannot offer or are not offering in the way that you are doing it. So if you’re listening right now, now, I encourage you to think about the parts of your talents that you are not fully owning, you know, taking for granted. Think about the value that you bring to folks. And I’m very excited that Kim is going to be sitting down and really writing out the value of what these workshops offer and the problems that it solves and objections. And as she said, this is all, this is sales. Once we have created something that works, and as therapists, it’s usually pretty easy for us to create something that works because we use these skills with our clients every day. So once you take it out of that one on one context and move it into a group and you need to sell it in a new way, just answering some of these questions that Kim and I talked about and writing out the value and the problems that it solves and thinking about what people’s objections are going to be and answering those objections, those are all sales skills. 

Linzy Bonham [00:37:45]: 

And when we can sell the good thing that we do, people get value from it. And that helps to improve people’s lives. So that selling and marketing piece, although it doesn’t tend to be our favorite, can also be really grounding and energizing in terms of really naming the value of what you do, helping the people that you support understand the value of what you do and in doing so, actually getting those people, getting your help. Right. If we’re not putting ourself out there, if we’re not marketing, if we’re not selling, then people aren’t actually getting the value of what we do. So I’m sorry. So excited for Kim to, to put that together and you know, I’m sure she’ll continue to play with pricing over time, but now we have a floor. There’s a number she will not go below and she can see as she gets feedback and puts the offer together, what that number ends up being. 

Linzy Bonham [00:38:31]: 

That makes sense for her. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, then my free on demand masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:01]: 

There is a lot that sucks about friendships no longer working. And I want to name that because this in some ways is some of the least fun part of changing of growing is the things that we used to really value, the people that we used to really value, who we no longer are in step with. 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:01]: 

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is focusing on money and friendship. This was a solo episode topic that was suggested to me by Emily Maynard, who came on to speak to us about high control religion. And there are so many facets to this topic of money and friendship that I’ve almost gotten in my own way trying to figure out how to record this because there’s just so much about money and friendship. There’s so many dimensions to it. So what I’m going to focus on today is a piece that’s also very personal to me about money and friendship, which is what happens to friendships when we start to take our own financial needs seriously. So what I have found over time through my own growth as a helper, healer, self sacrificing type of human, and also watching the hundreds of therapists that I’ve gotten to support at this point is when you take your financial needs seriously, you also need to start taking yourself more seriously. Right? These things go hand in hand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:08]: 

When we’re taking our financial needs seriously, we’re acknowledging that I am a person with actual needs. My needs matter. You may be moving through a narrative of I deserve to be well, I deserve to be okay. Just because there’s suffering in the world doesn’t mean that I need to be in perpetual suffering. When we take our financial needs seriously, whether that involves you up, leveling your fee, deciding you need to change the way that you get paid for your work, whether that just means looking at your money in a more serious way and identifying these are my needs, you are taking yourself more seriously. By extension, these Things have to go together. And when we do that, that has an impact on our relationships and that has an impact on our friendships, potentially our friendships with other therapists, folks we’ve gone through school with, our colleagues, that can start to impact relationships in multiple ways because you’re valuing your gifts, you’re valuing your time, you are being more in touch with your own needs, you are changing the focus of your time and energy, and you’re also changing your mindset and your outlook. And I’m going to talk about how those four facets show up in friendship as we change our relationship with money. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:16]: 

So first, let’s talk about valuing your gifts and your time and, and how that can impact your friendships. When you start to really look at your financial needs, you are gonna have to start to acknowledge that what you do professionally has value. Right? This thing that we do, the healing work that we do, whether that’s mental health therapy, whether that is manual practice that you have, the helping and healing that we do has value, right? And the more that we get in touch with that, the more that we realize that this thing that I do, I deserve to be well compensated for it. I should not be struggling and suffering while I’m also bringing immense value into other people’s lives, means that you have to start really valuing your gifts and your time. Right? There’s a shift that starts to happen there where you realize, yeah, this thing that I do is actually valuable. Just because it’s come naturally to me or just because I am good at it doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. Right? I’m actually changing people’s lives with this gift. And, and when you start to value your gifts and your time, you’re going to start to value them in your personal life too, not just in your professional life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:21]: 

Most therapists and caretakers, I find, are prone to self sacrifice, right? So we tend to have often built relationships in our personal lives. We’ve built friendships where we are not necessarily valuing our gifts and our time. Right. Where we have been over giving, where we’ve been overly accommodating and people pleasing. Right? Right. All of these lovely things that come along with having a helping, healing kind of personality. And when we start to value our gifts and our time, that is gonna disrupt that dynamic in friendships that have been based on you giving a lot over giving, sacrificing yourself, being like, oh, it’s the end of a busy day and I’m exhausted, but I will go and have coffee with this friend who is not gonna ask me anything about myself, but I know they’re going through a hard time, so I’m gonna go sacrifice myself. Despite being exhausted, when you’ve started to value your gifts and your time, you’re going to find you’re less able to do that, right? That starts to be really inauthentic to do that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:18]: 

There’s going to be parts of you that are like, no, what I do is valuable and I’m no longer going to be in this dynamic. And that is going to be a disruption to friendships that you’ve built that are based on you sacrificing yourself. Right? Friendships that are not reciprocal or friendships where you’re giving beyond your boundaries, right? Your friendships, if they have been built on you caretaking and over giving, as you start to value your gifts and your time, they’re not going to work the same anymore, right? Like you are changing, you are changing. And the dynamic in your friendships, if it has been built on you over giving and you’re no longer doing that, you’re changing the rules, you’re changing your boundaries, and that is going to impact your friendships. The next piece that goes along, of course, with valuing your gifts and your time is, is being more in touch with your own needs. When we start to be more honest about our financial needs, and that might be realizing that you can’t actually get by on $45,000 a year, you need to be making $70,000 a year to get by in the city that you live in, right? Or that might be acknowledging that you also need to retire. You know, there’s not going to be some magical fairy that sweeps in at the end and takes care of you. You are the one who has to save your retirement. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:30]: 

When you start to really acknowledge your own needs and you’re in touch with your own needs, that’s also going to impact your friendships. There’s going to be friends who are on a similar path to you of starting to take their needs more seriously, or maybe they’ve always been in that place who are going to be able to support you and you’re going to be able to cheer each other on and, you know, help each other stay connected with your goals and what matters to you. But there’s going to be other friends who are invested, not consciously, unconsciously invested in you not being in touch with your needs, right. And in being self sacrificing. And when those friendships have been built with that dynamic in it, you are going to be changing that relationship, right? Not everybody is going to want you to change there’s going to be dynamics and friendships that you’ve built that are really based on you not being in touch with your needs, right? And overriding your own needs and being like, this is fine. This is okay. When it’s not fine and it’s not okay. And the more that you are in touch with your financial needs and take those seriously, the more that is also going to be showing up in your friendships. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:31]: 

And things that might used to be okay in a friendship for you are not okay, right? The friendship might not work as well anymore because you are changing along with valuing your time and energy and being more in touch with your own needs. When we start to change our relationship with money, it also changes the focus of our time and energy. We might be reading different books, listening to different podcasts, you know, consuming different things than we used to. There’s also going to be a change in mindset and outlooks. Often we have made friendships based on, like, similar political views, similar philosophies of life, right? Like, we. We end up in. In step with people at times in our life because we, you know, think the same, we talk the same, we’ve come from similar experiences. But as we change our relationship with money and maybe you start to think more about financial strategy, right? You want to put your energy towards that to think about, how do I get the most out of my retirement planning? Your friend who has not done this work is probably not going to be able to chat with you about that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:37]: 

They’re not going to be interested in that, right? You’re going to start to maybe be interested and talking about different things, or you might start to talk about something that is very interesting to you and realize, oh, this. This friend is not there. They are not in this place. And so we do put ourselves kind of out of step with our friendships in terms of where our focus is, what we’re thinking about, but also how we’re thinking about the world, how we understand how the world works. I have found for myself as I have changed my relationship with money over time, as I’ve taken myself more seriously, as I’ve earned more money than I ever thought I would be able to earn and earn more money individually, but also just generated more money from folks wanting to get my support and the support of my team with their money, that has changed how I think about the world. For better or for worse, right? We end up with different philosophical outlooks, right? Different ideas of what is possible when you’ve experienced something that’s possible, and your analyses might start to Change, especially if you have come from a narrative of very strongly systems oriented narrative where like everything is systems, everything happens kind of to us. More of that, kind of like strong, strong systemic analysis. When you start to make choices that have impact and you start to take things more seriously in a way that has direct impact, that’s going to change that philosophy, right? Your philosophy is going to shift. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:08]: 

And if you have a friendship that started with a similar worldview, your worldview might start to change. And that is going to put you out of step sometimes philosophically and politically. And just in terms of what’s interesting from the people that you built friendships with before you started doing this work. So sometimes you just want to talk about different stuff, or you start to talk about something that’s really interesting to you and realize, oh, this person’s not at all interested in talking about investments or how to batch time. They’ve got other focuses. And so this is also something that can happen in terms of friendship as we change our relationship with money, as we start to take ourselves more seriously again, not everybody’s gonna go with you, right? We’re all on different paths now. Something that I haven’t mentioned yet, but that is, I think, really relevant to all of this, is that it sucks. This is the part of growing and changing that also involves a lot of grief. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:03]: 

And I know that a couple years ago on the podcast, and just like in my communities, I talked about this more. Cause it was very active and present in my life at that time of having to make space or let go of relationships that used to be really important, but did have these dynamics baked into them or that we just didn’t have that much in common anymore. And those might still be friendships that I maintain in a casual way, but the people who are your people start to change when you change your focus and your way of thinking and ask for more from life and ask for more from the people around you. There’s a lot to grieve here. And this can be a really hard part of changing your relationship with money. Taking yourself more seriously is, you know, for every door that opens, there’s other doors that close. There’s loss here. And I want to acknowledge that because it’s difficult and it’s not fun. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:57]: 

And I think that friendship is an area generally in society that we don’t talk about enough. You know, of how it feels when you have somebody that you’ve loved deeply and been in touch with and been in step with for a long time. What that’s like when you start to Fall out of step or things that you used to be okay with or that you at least expressed to that person you’re okay with, you’re no longer able to tolerate. There’s a lot of loss there, and there can be conflict and tension and hurt. There is a lot that sucks about friendships no longer working. And I want to name that because this in some ways is some of the least fun part of changing, of growing is the things that we used to really value, the people that we used to really value, who we no longer are in step with. So I will say, with growth always comes grief. They go hand in hand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:49]: 

This is one of the areas where I’ve certainly felt the most grief in my own growth. But it’s also one of the areas, friendship is one of the areas that’s been the richest for me too, in terms of growth. The folks that I’ve ended up in step with and the ways that they see me and show up for me and challenge me are a type of friendship that I could not have had before I did this work. So there’s, you know, also all of the great relationships that you build on the other side as you value yourself, take yourself more seriously, ask for more from life, and maybe ask for more from the people around you if you haven’t been doing so. There’s beautiful new relationships or changed relationships on the other side, but it certainly can be a painful process to go through. So money and friendship, to sum it up, you know, as we change our relationship with money, our relationships change because, you know, we value our gifts and our time more, we’re more in touch with our own needs, and we often change the focus of our time and energy, and we change our mindset and our outlooks. Right? Our philosophies change, maybe our politics change and shift. This all has an impact on friendships. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:59]: 

So just noticing that, noticing for yourself, are these things showing up in your own life in some way? Where are the areas where maybe your growth is starting to create some tension or conflict? Where relationships that used to fit are not fitting so much anymore? And naming that and thinking about how you want to address that, are these things that you can talk about with this person? You know, is there enough love and openness and trust in this relationship that you can start to. To name where there’s discord? Or are these areas where this is life showing us that seasons change and this is a natural change that’s going to be coming as you continue to take better and better care of yourself financially and emotionally? And thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money Coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear, maybe not owning your needs to feeling clear and empowered, then my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Colleen Barrows [00:00:00]: 

I think we’ve been leaning on the math for the most part, and it’s wearing on me, and I feel pretty exhausted by that. And I think another thing that’s helped is just reflecting on a few years ago when I was with my daughter more when she was 2, and my husband did work more during that season. And I worked, but not as much as I do now. And financially, we weren’t in the place we are now. But I felt better. I felt more aligned in other ways. And so it’s, I think that’s good information, but it can feel, you know, with the things that we’ve taken on financially, I can feel a little stuck on how to get back there. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:40]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:18]: 

Today’s episode is a coaching episode with money skills for therapist graduate Colleen Barrows. Colleen is a therapist who’s been practicing for 15 years. She focuses on perinatal mental health. And today, Colleen and I dig into this challenge that so many of us face when we have young kids of balancing time with kids with the need to make money with other passion projects. In this case, a blog that Colleen is writing for moms in the early, early days of parenthood. How do you balance all of these things? Things? Today we also talk about breadwinning. Colleen is a breadwinner, so we talk about how that comes into her dynamic and basically tease apart this question of how do you balance all of these competing obligations and passions and values, especially while your kids are really young and you are the primary breadwinner? Here is my coaching conversation with Colleen Barrows. So, Colleen, welcome to the podcast. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:30]: 

Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:32]: 

I am so happy to have you here. It is such a treat to get to see you again after. I don’t know where we are now, like two years. Is that. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:40]: 

It’s been. It’s been about a year, I think a Year. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:42]: 

Okay. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:42]: 

It feels like two. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:43]: 

Apparently a lot has happened in my life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:45]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:46]: 

Okay. So a year after we worked together in Money Skills for Therapists. 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:51]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:51]: 

So what do you want to focus on during our time together today? 

Colleen Barrows [00:02:55]: 

Yeah, I think there’s several parts to it, but I think as I’ve thought about it, I think the best way to say it is I’m just, I’m really feeling stuck and trying to figure out how to focus my energy and time right now. I’m feeling since working with you and Money Skills for Therapists, I’m feeling a lot more grounded in my practice, a lot more financially. I do feel more stable in that way. Just feeling awesome. So I’m very grateful for that. I think specifically even before we got on our call, I was doing my profit first allocation so that implementing some of those things has been really helpful. But yeah, I recently started a blog called all the Mama Therapy for Postpartum Women. Pregnant Postpartum. 

Colleen Barrows [00:03:39]: 

That’s primarily the population I work with. But I guess I’m trying to formulate this thought. I’m struggling with where to put my energy because ideally the blog and maybe some other aspects that I would add to the blog such as having some classes kind of that ideally would add some passive income, but as of right now it’s not passive and it’s also not income. I think I’m feeling discouraged with that, but I also feel a lot of energy and passion for it. So I guess I would just love some input on how to think about my time, how to think about the energy that I’m putting into these various things. Because the other aspect is I’m noticing that what I’m wanting the most right now is time, specifically with my 2 year old. My daughter just started kindergarten as we were talking about before we got on. And she is wonderful, but she’s probably neurospicy somewhere in that range and so she requires a lot. 

Colleen Barrows [00:04:47]: 

And so I’m just really craving time with my 2 year old, I guess. And it’s hard to find where to put that and where to. How to prioritize things and how to find. How to make that work. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:59]: 

So that’s a lot to fit into one human life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:02]: 

Yeah, it is. And I think you and I last year talked about how I’m, you know, the primary breadwinner and you know, that’s a whole other aspect that we maybe don’t have time to go into today. But it is, you know, a big part of this is my husband, he did start doing handyman Work on Mondays. So I stay home on Mondays. He does some work. So that is feeling energetically better to have that happening. But the breakup of the income and also our just what our life is looking like is not feeling exactly what I would want right now, so. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:39]: 

Yeah, yeah, because there’s a lot of, like, I’m hearing a lot of pressure there. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:44]: 

Yeah, yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:45]: 

Like there’s the pressure on you as, as the main breadwinner in the household. Yes, like vast, vast majority breadwinner. 

Colleen Barrows [00:05:52]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:53]: 

Then there’s, you know, the two year old is only two for so long, you know, and she’s, you know, interesting. There’s stuff going on, you know, and then there’s also, you know, wanting to create this passive income stream. I’m going to put that in hard quotations. Passive income. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:09]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:10]: 

You know, to also, you know, I’m hearing in that too, like a passion to like reach more people. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:14]: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:15]: 

Reach the folks that you love to serve. And that’s a lot to be carrying on your shoulders all at the same time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:06:21]: 

It is, it is. And I think obviously the hope is that if I could build the blog into something that it would be less on my shoulders, but right now it’s adding a lot. And I guess I’m curious. As I was preparing for this call, I was like, I wonder if I just need some kind of Tetris of scheduling magic. That’s my fantasy, I think, and I don’t think it’s that simple. But it’s like, how do I fit it all in and how do I just Tetris it just right so that I get everything? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:56]: 

And that would be the kind of productivity response. Like if this was a productivity podcast, I would say, sure, you can do it all. Let’s talk about time blocking. Let’s talk about getting up and doing the most important thing first in the morning. And how do you set yourself up for an optimal day in that kind of philosophy? That’s more about optimizing your human life. I’m sure there’s lots of hacks that could help you be more effective. I personally use time blocking. I just started using Cal Newport’s timeblock planner and I do find it’s helpful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:27]: 

It does make me more effective when I think about, okay, what’s already on my schedule today with those blocks of time in between, what are the most important things I can be doing? Just blocking. Like, okay, from this time to this time, I’m doing inbox from 11 to 12. Right. And then from 12 to 1, I’m always gonna take a lunch and a walk, because I need that. Right. And then this is my calls. And this is so certainly some of that is helpful. But also we do only have so much energy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:53]: 

Right. And something that I’m thinking about, as I’m thinking about your situation is your kiddo is two. Two is a lot. And two is also fleeting. You know, all the years are fleeting, but within, you know, three years, your youngest will be in school. Right. So this is also a very specific window. There’s a podcast I listened to a little bit when I was in the kind of like young baby days, the days that you help mothers with called the Longest, Shortest Time. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:18]: 

Are you familiar with that one? 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:20]: 

I’m not, but that’s so true. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:21]: 

Yeah. And like that’s the idea is like those early years, especially like the baby days, but I would say also the toddler days. The days can feel long, but the years fly by. 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:32]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:33]: 

Right. And they’re years that we never get back. Never again will your little one be completely obsessed with you and want you to like play in the sandbox or whatever she’s into. 

Colleen Barrows [00:08:42]: 

Yeah, it’s such a sweet time. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:43]: 

It is a sweet time. You know, and so I guess as I’m thinking about balancing these things, I’m curious, tell me what it is that is out of balance with your time with your 2 year old. What needs to look different? 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:00]: 

I think what I’ve been landing on is just craving that, like one on one time. And so I do think that with my daughter starting school, some of that will be a little bit more organic. I have Mondays with him, which is great. And I was starting to play with the idea of taking Thursday mornings off to also have with him. But I think because my daughter, my eldest, does take so much attention that oftentimes when we’re all together, I end up being pulled away to kind of attend to something with her. And so I think it’s the one on one time with him that I’m really mostly craving. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:40]: 

Sorry, and I may have misgendered. You’re younger there. I think I referred to your younger as a girl as well. So to be clear, older child is a girl, the younger one’s the boy. 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:46]: 

The two year old we’re talking about. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:48]: 

Yeah. So I’m hearing it’s really about that quality connection time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:09:52]: 

It is, yeah. And I had a lot of that with my daughter when she was this age. And so I think that’s also. I’m feeling just the difference of the kind of time I had with her. Versus the kind of time I’m getting with him. Yeah, yeah.

Linzy Bonham [00:10:05]: 

So I’m hearing Thursday morning is something that you’re playing with the idea for Thursday morning. 

Colleen Barrows [00:10:10]: 

Yes. Yeah, I actually blocked that out for next week to try it out. So I’m gonna see. And then just like anything, if I take that time, then I have to fit clients somewhere else. I have to fit other things, blog time, other places. But yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:26]: 

And thinking about that kind of optimized schedule, Tetris kind of thing, do you have a schedule worked out that helps you balance these different priorities? 

Colleen Barrows [00:10:37]: 

Yes and no. I feel like what mostly happens is I get my client schedule made week by week, and I do have a pretty somewhat set schedule for that. And then I fit in other things around that, whether it’s finances or working on the blog, things like that. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham [00:10:56]: 

So that’s like a regular client schedule or is that a moving client schedule?  

Colleen Barrows [00:11:01]: 

It’s a moving. It’s. It stays roughly within the same kind of hours of the week, though. Okay, but. Okay. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:08]: 

So there’s kind of some blocks there that, you know, are going to be client hours. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:11]: 

Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. But I find that if I get a cancellation or, you know, just have an open hour, that’s when I’m like, okay, I’m going to do my best to fill in the blank. Do 10 things.

Linzy Bonham [00:11:22]: 

Yes.

Colleen Barrows [00:11:22]: 

With that one hour. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:24]: 

Yes, yes. Yeah. Because thinking about the number side, I know that your income is essential for your household. It’s not supplementary. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:32]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:33]: 

How many clients a week do you need to see to be able to bring home the base money to keep your household running? 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:40]: 

I’ve been doing roughly 20 to 22, depending on the week. That’s more than. Honestly, I would like to see. But that is quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. But that’s what I need right now. Some weeks are 18, 17. 18. 

Colleen Barrows [00:11:56]: 

But. And I think that that feels a little better, but yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:01]: 

Okay. Yeah. So 20 to 22. It is a stretch. It’s what you’ve been doing, but 18 is nicer. Yeah. Do you know what your sweet spot number would actually be? Just as a clinician, what would be your ideal amount of sessions? 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:13]: 

I mean, in a perfect world, 16 to 18, probably. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:18]: 

Okay. So a little lower than you are now, but not massively lower. Not like half. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:22]: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:23]: 

So that’s good. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:24]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:25]: 

Because, you know, the piece that I’m thinking about too, as we’re thinking about balancing these different demands on your time, priorities, values. Right. Because obviously parenting, family is a value that you have you want to have that one on one time with your son? I’m hearing the blog, there is hope there for some passive income. So there’s some business strategy that you’re hoping will come from that. But I’m also hearing that there’s passion for it. Right. Like you have spark for it, which also kind of has its own life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:12:55]: 

Yeah, yeah. It’s a creative outlet, which is a big part of me. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:01]: 

So that’s also going to be nurturing you in kind of a different way. But then there’s also this need for you to make money, the household money. Right. This is not a couple session. Obviously your husband is not here and we’re not going to get too deep into anything. But it does make me curious about in terms of your energy, have you and your husband thought about how much he would need to be working for you to be able to start to decrease your client load a little bit? Do you have a sense of what that math will look like? 

Colleen Barrows [00:13:31]: 

To be honest, like, he and I have not thought together about that, but I have done some thinking about that. And part of the catch 22 here is that I do make more per hour. And so it just has made sense for me to increase my hours as far as financially, but time wise, not so much. But I think that is a conversation that I’ve been wanting to have with him is just, for example, if I’m not working Thursday mornings, maybe he could take on some hours. That would balance that out a little bit. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:01]: 

Yeah. Because having an actual sense of that math would be helpful because then we can actually start to understand. Okay, so if as a couple you make a goal of like you’d eventually like to get you working 18 sessions a week because that’s going to give you more energy to be present with your children. It’s going to give you time and energy to focus on the blog in a fresher way. Yeah. How many hours or how many jobs, however it’s going to work, would your husband have to take on to replace this 2 to 4 client income that we’re talking about here? We know that it’s going to be more hours than you’re going to work. You are professional offering professional services. We are very lucky to be in a field where we can command a high hourly amount more than most professions. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:41]: 

But also we can’t work 40 hours a week doing what we do. So there’s a trade off there. Right. It’s like we might be able to charge $250 or $300 for what we do even. But we can’t work 40 hours a week. You know, we’re going to cap out at 20, 25. 

Colleen Barrows [00:14:56]: 

Yep. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:57]: 

Your husband is going to be able to charge less per job or less per hour, but he’s going to be able to work more hours without becoming grizzled and burnt out. Do you have a sense right now of what that math could look like? Like, what does your husband get paid for, say like a morning of handyman work? 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:14]: 

He has been charging. I’m trying to remember what rate he just started out. So I think he’s starting a little on the low side. Maybe 70 an hour. So. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:25]: 

Which is not nothing. 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:26]: 

Yeah, it’s not nothing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:27]: 

Yeah, we, we had a handyman work with us last summer helping us build out backyard, a bunch of garden beds and stuff like that. Kind of like a generalist. And he was only $50 an hour. So 70 is. 70 is good. So it’s like if your husband can command $70 an hour and you’re saying that’s kind of low for your area, is he starting on the lower end. 

Colleen Barrows [00:15:47]: 

Of what’s normal from people he’s talked to? Yeah, it seems that that’s at least average to low. Yeah. What is your hourly rate right now? I’m about 190. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:58]: 

So it’s almost like three to one. The math is not quite perfect, but basically he would have to work three hours to replace one of your sessions. So for you to not see two clients, it’s kind of like a day of work for him. Like a six hour day. 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:12]: 

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:14]: 

What do you notice thinking about that math? 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:15]: 

I notice a mix. Like again, it feels a little stuck because it’s. Part of me feels like, well, I should just work those two hours. The logical part of me feels like that doesn’t quite add up. But the energetics of him working this one day a week and just feeling him bringing in some income has felt really good. And so I could imagine a world in which him working another day, day and a half or so would make a big difference on. On our finances in part, but also just on the. How I feel, which I’m sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:53]: 

On your relationship. 

Colleen Barrows [00:16:54]: 

Yeah. And on our relationship. Yeah. And just the pressure. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:57]: 

It’s tempting in relationships when one partner is like professionalized and can charge a lot per hour and the other can’t to kind of go all or nothing on both of them. You know, I’ve seen, I’ve seen couples do this and you know, or one, one Partner is like a lawyer. Right. And the other one can get like a decent low to mid level corporate job, but is never going to make what a lawyer makes. So the lawyer works more and more and more and the other one does more of like the home building, caretaking. And depending on who you are as people, that might be a perfect fit. But if it’s not in energetic alignment with what actually makes you happy, and if it doesn’t foster a sense of equity in the relationship, then it’s almost like a little bit of a. I’m not sure quite how to say it, but we are almost like oversimplifying the situation. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:45]: 

You’re not just dollars per hour. 

Colleen Barrows [00:17:47]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:47]: 

You’re both humans who have emotions and have finite capacity and also have a relationship between the two of you. And both need to be showing up and contributing to your family in different ways. 

Colleen Barrows [00:17:58]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:59]: 

So I can see by the math. By the math, it’s like, oh, you should just work all the time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:03]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:03]: 

But as a human, that’s a terrible idea. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:05]: 

Yes. And I think we’ve been leaning on the math for the most part and it’s wearing on me and I feel pretty exhausted by that. And I think another thing that’s helped is just reflecting on a few years ago when I was with my daughter more when she was 2, and my husband did work more during that season. And I worked, but not as much as I do now. And financially we weren’t in the place we are now, but I felt better. I felt more aligned in other ways. And so it’s. I think that’s good information, but it can feel with the things that we’ve taken on financially, I can feel a little stuck on how to get back there. 

Colleen Barrows [00:18:45]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:46]: 

Yeah. One thing that occurs to me as we’re talking about this in your family and the dynamics and time together, kids growing up is what if money is not the most important thing? And I’m curious if that’s true. If money is not actually the most important thing, what is the most important thing? 

Colleen Barrows [00:19:03]: 

Yeah. And that’s never been my focus, but I think with bills, it’s like there’s just things that I can’t avoid. And so I do really value time and time with my kids and time with the family and even my creative self, my husband’s creative self, he’s also a creative person. So I think those are the things that we’ve valued. But with taking on a mortgage and having two kids that it’s so easy to get misaligned with the focus. Just has to be on bringing income. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:40]: 

Yes. 

Colleen Barrows [00:19:41]: 

Yes. Yeah. It’s a stuck place, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:45]: 

Yeah. Yeah, it is a stuck place. And it’s a place that I see a lot of us get to. I think too, now that we tend to have families later in life. I had my son shortly before I turned 35. My partner was almost 40 at that time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:01]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:01]: 

So it’s like you’re. We’re also kind of coming into some of our peak earning years professionally when we’re now in these new baby days. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:07]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:08]: 

Which is not a great combo. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:09]: 

Yeah. And that’s true because of course, professionally. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:11]: 

We want to show up and like make the money that we’ve built the career capital to be able to get. And yet we have these little people who need us. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:18]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:19]: 

And are like growing up by the day, you know, I think there’s a core tension there. And I’m curious, like, when you think about that, what do you notice thinking about these kind of two things in your life, overlapping, coinciding? 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:32]: 

Yeah. It just feels very true. I mean, that’s true of me too. I think I was 36 when my daughter was born. So, yeah, it feels true. And I’m not sure what to do with that. Exactly. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:46]: 

Yes. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:46]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:48]: 

So thinking about what to do with that, then I want to. I want to zoom out on your life a little bit. I want to zoom out like a lot. Let’s say you’re 85 years old. 

Colleen Barrows [00:20:58]: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:59]: 

Okay. And you’re looking back at your life. You’re reflecting on the choices that you’ve made. You know, your kids are grown. They probably have their own kids at this time. Maybe they live in the same city as you. Maybe they’ve moved far away. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:13]: 

When you’re looking back at this time in your life 45 years from now, what will be important? What are you gonna be noticing? 

Colleen Barrows [00:21:26]: 

I feel really tender as you said that. Like, almost tearful. Just, I mean, thinking about my kids. Right. Just like that. Both of them. But particularly my 2 year old, just, you know, the season before he starts school and where. Yeah, the time with him just feels really important. 

Colleen Barrows [00:21:43]: 

And with my daughter, like, she has a lot of big needs and pouring into our home and into them, I think is. Feels like the most important. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:53]: 

And if that was the most important thing, what would look different right now about the way you’re structuring your time. 

Colleen Barrows [00:22:01]: 

I’m struggling with. Exactly. You know, I think following that thought that I’ve had about taking Thursdays off, like, I think that feels like a starting point. Or Thursday mornings, at least for now. Maybe the whole day at some point. Point. But I think having some protected time, where it feels like it’s so easy for time to get swallowed up by a lot of different things. And so having some protected time that is intentional and special with my son, with my daughter, at other times of the day. 

Colleen Barrows [00:22:32]: 

So aside from thinking about blocks of time, I’m not exactly sure what needs to change, but I think that’s a good starting point. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:41]: 

Yeah. Because I am thinking too about the kind of quality over quantity aspect too, where there is something to be said for quality and just kind of being. Or, sorry, quantity and just kind of being around and available. And that has its benefits, but also the quality, like, when we really could be intentional about having time with our kids. And, like, this is our special morning together. What are we gonna do? What are our special things we do together on Thursday morning? This is our, you know, mommy kiddo time together. That has a real impact on our kids. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:10]: 

And also I think for. I’m thinking for him too. And you have this on Mondays, and this could be something that you have to play on Mondays too. But it’s just knowing, like, Mondays is mummy day. We do these fun things together, you know, this is our special stuff that we do. Just us. Those are the resources kids call on later in therapy, you know? You know, to counter the other things that have been challenging in life is having that secure, attached relationship with their parents. And we don’t actually have to be around every day, all day to do that. 

Colleen Barrows [00:23:37]: 

Yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:39]: 

In fact, I would say some, like, stay at home parents who I can think of from my own childhood friends, parents who stayed at home didn’t actually have a better relationship with their kids than my mom did with me because they weren’t in balance. Right. If they were, like, resentful and had, like, put dreams aside to be home, then that wasn’t necessarily great energy they were bringing to their parenting relationship. Right. Like, I think we all have our own balance to strike. So it also makes me curious for you, as we’re thinking about these time blocks, what is that balance for you right now, thinking about your kiddos? You’ve got two. You want to have some individual time with each of them. What would your schedule look like if you were making sure that you got in that quality time with them that you want? 

Colleen Barrows [00:24:20]: 

I mean, I don’t think it’s so far away from what I’m currently doing, because I agree with you, there are times where I. I think I don’t necessarily want to be home with them all the time either. I enjoy the work that I do. I get a lot of meaning out of it, but I just want to do a little less of it and feel a little more well rounded. So, yeah, I do think that bringing intentionality and not letting Mondays be swallowed by tasks, it’s so easy for me to kind of just be in catch up mode and cleaning mode and maybe trying to have that intentionality around the time that I do already have built in and maybe planning to try some other time as well. I think that’s what I’m struck with, is just needing to not let it. It’s so easy for it to disappear into cleaning land or running errands land or something else like that. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:11]: 

I’m hearing you’re spending a lot of your time doing what in ifs language would be managing. You’re doing a lot of managing work. Right. Like you’re running a business, you’re managing household finances. You’re bringing the money, and then when you’re home, you. There’s still this managing mode of like cleaning errands, taking care of tasks. 

Colleen Barrows [00:25:31]: 

Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s a part of the conversation I need to have with my husband. And we have had ongoing. But I do still feel like the house manager. Absolutely. And the one holding all of that pressure too. And I can, you know, I feel the energy that my resentment, you know, it takes a lot of energy to be resentful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:49]: 

Yes, it does. 

Colleen Barrows [00:25:50]: 

And so, you know, I think there’s some things in that world that ideally I could shift my focus when I do have time with the kids, because I do have that time, but it’s often taken up by the managing of the household, I think. Often. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:06]: 

Yeah. Because as I’m looking, you know, hearing where you are now and where you want to be in terms of your kids, I feel like in terms of the time with your kids, you’re only at like a tweak place. Just need to tweak a little. It’s like, you know, add Thursday mornings into the mix maybe, or maybe Mondays adding some more intentional stuff that you do to get out of the house so that manager part of you can’t take over. 

Colleen Barrows [00:26:27]: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:28]: 

You know, having like a park that you go to or you always go to a certain bakery to have a little, you know, date, whatever that is. Right. So I’m hearing that’s all very tweakable, but in the broader context, with the stuckness, I am really wondering about the Balance with your husband and how much that is contributing to, like, a stuck feeling. Because it just seems overwhelming. The amount that you’re carrying is overwhelming. And feeling stuck is a very natural extension to overwhelm. 

Colleen Barrows [00:26:54]: 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s very true. I think that contributes a lot to the feeling I hold in my body is just like, so much falls on me. And that’s a conversation we have had and need to continue to have. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:08]: 

But yeah, because I would also say too, as you’re thinking about the household, if being the household manager is not actually something that he’s naturally skilled at, if that’s not something that he’s good at, maybe it’s not something that actually he likes. There are some folks, some men who stay home and women who love being the household manager, they’re like, I made this amazing dinner. I found this really cool cleaning thing. Some folks thrive in that role. I’m not getting that vibe in terms of taking care of that part of your life. So as I’m thinking about just all of the things that need to be taken care of your life. If your husband doesn’t have the proclivity. 

Colleen Barrows [00:27:45]: 

Is that the word, proclivity? 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:47]: 

Yeah, yeah, proclivity. Thank you. To be the household manager, then he should probably be contributing more to the household in the ways that. That he can show up, which is earning some more money in this handyman work, if that’s something he’s naturally skilled at. Right. Because what I’m thinking too, is if you have some more money coming in from his side, also, maybe a cleaner comes to your house on Mondays and you and your son leave. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:08]: 

Yeah, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:09]: 

Like when we have money coming into the household from the things that we’re naturally skilled at, we can turn that money into services from other folks who love cleaning. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:18]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:19]: 

Right. And so I don’t even know if you really should be the person cleaning your house. You know, compared to your skills and the other things like that, you can get paid good money for, you know, get paid $190 an hour to support somebody in their perinatal journey, which would cover a cleaner doing your house once a week or maybe even more. I’m not sure what the going rate. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:39]: 

Is where you are. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:41]: 

Right. So I’m also thinking it seems to me like the energy money balance is off in your relationship. 

Colleen Barrows [00:28:51]: 

Yeah, I think so. And even hearing you talk about the cleaner, I feel a sense of relief and like, yeah, we did do that once a month for a time, and that cleaner is not available anymore. But I do think that that is a place, one of maybe many that we need to invest, free up some time with, spending money on that. Because time is really what I’m craving, and I’m feeling resentful that I don’t get enough of it to spend the way that I want. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:19]: 

Yes. Because right now, your time is being prioritized into turning that into income. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:24]: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:26]: 

And that’s where the lion’s share of your energy is going to. Which, you know, on one hand is wonderful that you’re able to earn a lot for your time, but also your time is part of your one and only human life. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:36]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:37]: 

So I’m hearing there’s other things that are calling for your time and energy. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:41]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:41]: 

Beyond just earning money for your household. 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:44]: 

Yeah. I think that feels good to lean into that and think about how to have more of that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:49]: 

As we’re coming towards the end of our time. What do you see as your next steps coming out of this conversation? 

Colleen Barrows [00:29:54]: 

I do think, continuing to tweak some of the time with the kiddos and the intentionality of that, I think I’m struck by just needing to be more intentional with how I am spending the time that I do have with them. But also, there has been a growing need for this conversation with my husband to really sit down and look at the finances, look at how time is spent, and how maybe we can make some changes in our household. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:22]: 

So having that conversation. And I would really encourage you to look at the numbers to look at, like, okay, I want to get to a point where you’re working two full days a week, and that’ll mean you’re earning this much, which means we can replace this part of my income. And also, I will just reflect to you, early parenthood is a very expensive time of life. Kids just need so much from us. They need so much of our time. And there’s other expenses that come up as well, but primarily it’s just that kind of childcare piece of, like, is one of you with a child? Are you paying somebody else for childcare? So this is gonna be a tighter time financially for you. And I wanna just reflect that this is a chapter that will end, and then you’ll be into a new chapter when kiddos are in school and you’re both able to work during the days. So thinking about this as this too shall pass, this is actually kind of a fleeting time in your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:10]: 

So how do you best wanna manage this little window of time together? 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:14]: 

Yeah, I think that’s such a good reminder that it. It’s Fleeting in the hard ways, and it’s fleeting in the hopeful ways, too. It will be hard to say goodbye to this, and it will bring some relief, too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:26]: 

What are you noticing coming to the end of our conversation? 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:29]: 

I think just some hope and spaciousness to think about, refocusing my attention, refocusing that energy, and also just remembering what does matter and that this isn’t a forever decision. This is left for right now. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:43]: 

Thank you. Thank you for joining me today, Colleen. 

Colleen Barrows [00:31:45]: 

Thank you, Linzy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:52]: 

I really appreciate Colleen coming on the podcast today to share with all of us about the puzzle that she’s working out right now. That pain of breadwinning is really real, especially when in Colleen’s case, you’re still like the primary household manager when you have kids. So you’d also love to be able to have more time to be present with your children. It is a lot, a lot of pressure to be a main breadwinner in a household, especially when you’re also wearing those other hats. So, so much of that breadwinner piece, as Megan Megginson and I talked about on our breadwinning episode that started off this season, is having that clear communication with your partner, looking at the different kinds of contributions that you’re both making, making sure that you are in balance, that you are striking a certain type of equity between the two of you. And if you’re not having clear conversations about that, and I think the conversation that Colleen and her partner will be able to have will involve some numbers. You know, what is the actual math of how she can scale back a bit, do more of what she enjoys, and he can see scale up, work a bit. What does that schedule look like? What does the math look like to keep them at a place where they’re still paying their bills and meeting their obligations, but also making sure that they are building a life where Colleen can be present with her kids and, you know, not have regrets later about not being present during these precious years where your kiddos are really small and they’re years that that fly by. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:21]: 

So thank you to Colleen, to coming on the podcast today and talking about something that I know many of us feel very deeply as therapists and parents and breadwinners. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, then my free on demand masterclass is the best place to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting