Emily Maynard [00:00:00]: 

I think a big piece of it in the US Is a huge amount of personal financial education. Happens in one specific conservative or kind of fundamentalist Christian affiliated program and it’s marketed through churches. So not only are you getting moral education around money and wealth, but often churches are offering classes in one particular system that does tend to promote one size fits all. There is one way to manage money and it’s very shame based. It’s your fault you’re not achieving advancement or success. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:36]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:15]: 

Today’s guest is Emily Maynard. Emily is an LMFT in California and she particularly focuses her work on religious trauma and high control religious backgrounds. Today, Emily and I talk about high control religion. We talk about what it is, how it impacts people’s relationship with money, its connection to money shame, how those stories can continue to show up for you even after you maybe left a high control religious context. And we also talk about how high control religion specifically impacts our relationship to private practice and being in private practice and kind of the huge gap that exists between those kind of high control religious cultural contexts and the messaging you get there in private practice and the skills and the mindset that we need to develop to be successful in private practice. Here is my conversation with Emily Maynard. So, Emily, welcome to the podcast. 

Emily Maynard [00:02:16]: 

Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:18]: 

Yes, I’m excited to chat too. I know that what you live and breathe every day, what you teach about and talk about and put out into the world is actually a topic that I have very little personal experience with. But I know a lot of students, a lot of therapists who have had come through Money Skills for therapists have come from experiences of high control religions. And that definitely shows up in our conversation. So I’m excited today to dig into, you know, kind of the overlap between our worlds of like, you know, I think you talk about money all the time you think and talk about high control religion and its impacts. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna jam today and talk about how these things come together. So let’s start by defining these terms, like, what is high control religion? 

Emily Maynard [00:02:58]: 

Yes. So high control religion doesn’t refer to any specific church or theology or religious group, but it’s a structure of relationships. And cult scholars will talk about the spectrum of high control groups where there’s certain behaviors and organizations that are healthy. And then as we go along the spectrum towards a cult or high control group, you’ll see more rigidity, more. More fear of outsiders looking down on others, authoritarian structures, total compliance with a leader’s ideas, with the authority of God or scripture backing them up. And that comes with secrecy, abuse, harm, a lot of things behind the scenes for insiders in these organizations that might be perfect and polished on the outside. So we’re not talking about any specific religion, but a type of religious harm that occurs. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:51]: 

Yeah, it’s almost like the structure of a way that a group is being run. Yeah. And as you’re talking about that, like, I’m thinking about students I’ve had who’ve had experiences that with the Christian religions, but I’m also thinking about kind of pseudo cults that are like, in the city that I live in, where you’re like, that’s, that’s weird that they would, you know, ask you to participate in something like multiple evenings a week. It seems like they’re kind of trying to control your time, like. Yeah, I think that I’m curious because cults I know a little bit about and I find quite fascinating the psychology of cults. From what you’re saying, I’m understanding there’d be quite a spectrum of how many of these kind of behaviors are being implemented or built into the system. Tell me a little bit more about how you think about this. When does something become high control, I guess is the question. 

Emily Maynard [00:04:35]: 

Yeah, that’s a really specific. That’s usually a difficult point to manage. Usually when the leader, I mean, we see it. If you watch cult documentaries, there’s usually a point where it becomes. Comes from more of a mainstream group where people are free to come and go and interact with other people, with other belief systems. There’s usually a point where there’s a sort of lockdown and a certain sect of those people, a certain segment will become more isolated and really limited in their interactions with the outside world. There’s suddenly only one way to live, and it requires you being in the group and following all Those rules. And there’s usually a lot of shame that starts forming around there if you can’t live up to those ideals or you don’t decide to follow the leader further down the road. 

Emily Maynard [00:05:22]: 

So again, this can happen in any kind of organization. Right. We work in family systems for marriage and family therapists, and it’s a little bit of the same. There’s unhealthy behaviors even in unhealthy families, and we’re there to help the system become healthier. So a lot of my work is helping people understand which parts of their experience were harmful to them and contributing to their current symptoms and which parts of those experiences or values that they were raised with they want to keep with them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:50]: 

Right, yeah. Because generally it’s not all bad. 

Emily Maynard [00:05:53]: 

There’s going to be never all or. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:54]: 

Nothing in any group. Yes, of course. So, you know, shame, like something that I have been talking about and thinking about a lot with my community in the last couple years, is money shame. Right. Like this idea that sometimes our relationship with money is, is so heavy that there really is like a shame component. How do you see high control religion impacting money shame specifically? 

Emily Maynard [00:06:17]: 

Well, I think religion or religious experiences are often some of the first moral education we get as people. So not just from our families. You know, our families all have norms around money and resources. But if you’re involved in a church as a child, that’s some of the first ideas that you get around. Is it good to have money? Is it bad to have money? What ways do you. Should you show that you have money? Is money a blessing from God? Is money a trap that could cause you to sin? Ideas like greed, ideas like poverty, where there’s this explicit moral understanding of money, I think often really gets shaped in our early religious exposures or experiences. And for high control groups, there’s always very specific rules about money. High control groups always involve financial exploitation, labor exploitation, time exploitation, whether or not that’s somebody, you know, requiring that you give most of your money to the group and the leader also lives very simply. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:17]: 

We shun money in the outside world, or whether you give money to the group and the leader gets to live very lavishly to promote, you know, the ideas of the group. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:25]: 

Right. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:25]: 

Both are pretty harmful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:27]: 

Yeah, yeah. Because I think about money and power and how money is a way of having power in the world. It’s, it’s kind of a. An embodiment of power in a certain way. When you have money, you’re able to make choices, you’re able to exchange that money for different things, access, experiences. And it makes sense to me that in a high control religion context, money would always be involved. Because if people have control over their own money, they also have control over their own lives. 

Emily Maynard [00:07:52]: 

Exactly. They have freedom. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:54]: 

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I could see how inevitably somebody, if there is that tipping point in a group that wasn’t high control before, if they’re going to switch into a high control mode, money is going to be part of that. It sounds like, I would think, almost without exception. 

Emily Maynard [00:08:09]: 

Yes. Yeah. That’s one of the markers of a high control group. Is there going to evolve exploitation in some way of resources that people have? 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:16]: 

Yes. 

Emily Maynard [00:08:17]: 

When you mentioned shame, I think what comes up for me is that high control religion always involves shame, whether that’s around sexual purity. There’s a lot of people that I work with who grew up in purity culture, and they have shame around their relationships and sexuality or whether that’s, you know, what they want, their dreams. They have a lot of shame around that. Or there’s this idea of not living up to some perfection and that brings a lot of shame that I’m bad inside or there’s something wrong with me. And that can come up around any resource that we have, you know, any tool that we use. But I think it, it often comes up around money, too. That comes up in my work with people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:56]: 

Yeah. And shame, just as a, as a tool of control, it occurs to me that, you know, shame is a very powerful tool of control because if you can convince other people that there’s something inherently wrong with them, it’s going to be hard for them to get grounded and confident and clear of like, no, this is wrong. Right. Like, it almost seems to me like, you know, there’s going to be an assignment of blame in abusive situations in general. And if you can convince the people who are being abused that they are wrong, inherently wrong, then they’re going to have a really hard time questioning what’s happening to them. Is that, is that accurate or would you think about that differently? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 

Emily Maynard [00:09:31]: 

There’s also a lot of these groups that they don’t, they don’t explicitly say a lot of these beliefs. Like the way that I grew up in very fundamentalist, conservative Christianity in the US There weren’t a lot of things that were explicitly told to me, but there were a lot of norms that I internalized just by seeing who was elevated in the group, who kind of had issues and left. That taught me a lot about how I should behave, what it meant to be a good person. What it meant to be a part of this group. And so a lot of these messages, especially around money, aren’t necessarily explicit. They’re really subtle. But this sense of shame indicates to me there’s something there that happened that made you feel like if you continued on this path, you wouldn’t be able to be a part of the group either now or, you know, eternally in heaven. If that’s part of the group’s belief, yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:20]: 

Okay, so how then can high control religion impact people’s ideas about money? Like, how do you see that kind of playing out for people’s individual relationship with money when they’ve had these experiences, like, maybe even, you know, like you’re talking about after they’ve left that community? 

Emily Maynard [00:10:37]: 

So a lot of the people that I work with are deeply feeling, deeply caring people, and they had some reason why they needed to leave the group or shift their belief systems. And often I work with people who are years out of the group intellectually, but their bodies are still responding to certain things, whether that’s relationships, sexuality, or money, purpose in life, vocation, where they’re like, I don’t know why I’m still having this problem, but I am like, why do I freak out around these conversations? You know, why do I still have this scarcity mindset, even if my needs are met and I have some savings? And that’s often the work that we do is figure out, like, well, what were you really taught about this? What did you observe? Not just what did someone teach you, but what did you learn? Which is a very different kind of question. And really focusing on what did you see elevated? What. And then how do you bring your current moral or ethical positions into those conversations too? 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:40]: 

Yeah, yeah. That trauma piece is so powerful. And I see that with therapists that I work with too, where even if, you know intellectually you’ve moved on from something, these things are still so deeply embedded in our nervous systems. And as you’ve said, sometimes they’re not words like, there aren’t necessarily explicit things that we were taught, but we know we knew what was rewarded and we knew what would get us, like, in trouble or, you know, make us belong less. And so, yeah, that. That imprinting is so, so deep, you know, with trauma in general, but certainly with money, too. And like, what do you see as some of the common. The common ideas that people are still carrying years later around? Money? What are some of maybe the themes that come out of high control religion about money for people? 

Emily Maynard [00:12:25]: 

I sort of see two tracks in this one of Them is this idea of the suffering servant. So that the right way to be moral or good is to live very simply and to continue to give to a mission, whether that’s mental health. Right. And saying like, well, people really need my services and they don’t have access to it, so I must be the one to fix that. And it would be good and right for me to take on a bigger caseload than I have or continue to work with insurances that are not respecting my time, things like that. Or I see people, there’s this idea in high control religion of this prosperity gospel. So the idea that if I do good, I will receive blessing and ease in my life and I will have all these financial resources. And when that’s not happening, that must mean that I’m failing morally or that there’s some sort of misalignment in my spirituality rather than sort of understanding. 

Emily Maynard [00:13:26]: 

There are systems of power around money. There are systems, you know, capitalism has certain goals. White supremacy has certain goals about the exploitation of people and labor. And really I see people sort of stuck in these ideas that, you know, well, I should have financial ease or I should remain suffering and, and not get honest about what my family needs or what my business needs in order to be a good person. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:55]: 

Yeah. And that’s quite a gap between those two tracks. And obviously we’re talking about a whole range here of groups that have all sorts of different ways of thinking and talking. But certainly that sacrifice one I see a lot because I think already too, folks who are drawn to therapy and other forms of health care. 

Emily Maynard [00:14:18]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:18]: 

Already tend to be giving, caring, over giving types. So I can see how that trait combined with a religion that really. Or a belief system that really preaches to you that martyr role. It’s a lot to unwind there. Yeah, it’s a lot of the same message in different ways. Right. 

Emily Maynard [00:14:39]: 

I’ve met so many people who’ve left formal religious or church ministry and then they become therapists or mental health clinicians and they’re like, well, at least I’m only working six days a week instead of seven days a week. Or you know, they’re used to working till 7, 8pm and being on call in all these ways and they’re used to maybe overworking for underpay. And it’s easy to bring some of those ideas with us and be like, well, at least it’s not as bad as this other situation I’m in. Rather than figuring out like, well, what is healthy and sustainable for me and how do I build the Practices to achieve that in. In my business or in my group practice. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:17]: 

Yeah, it’s kind of funny. This is, this is a little bit of a joke, but maybe it’s not a joke. It does make me think about. There’s almost like, maybe this hierarchy is not the right word, but a scale of like high control religions, cults. You’re being exploited. Your time and energy is being exploited at all times. Agency, your time and energy is being exploited quite a lot. Private practice, we tend to start by exploiting ourselves, if that’s what we’ve known before. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:41]: 

And then eventually we have to figure, as you say, like, what is sustainable energetically and financially, what do we actually need? But yeah, there is that martyr kind of messaging is already strong in the healthcare space, even without high control religious messages. So I can also see that being quite comfortable and familiar for folks who come into this field. It’s like, oh, this aligns with what I know and is, as you say, slightly better. I have a day off or I’m not working 60 hours a week. I’m only working 40 for doing, you know, seeing clients. So yeah. And then that other side, the prosperity track, this is something that I’m not as familiar with because I think that this is. That kind of messaging tends to be more prevalent in the United States. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:23]: 

I’m Canadian and I don’t see or hear that as much here. So tell me a little bit more about that messaging and when it’s left, like, if you’re not prosperous, then. And again, these are beliefs that wouldn’t be necessarily conscious intellectual beliefs, but just like a deeply. You know, again, if this is your original kind of programming around money is the idea is that if you are not prosperous, something is wrong with you. You’re doing something wrong. Like what would be how that plays out for somebody if the money’s not. Not coming to them? 

Emily Maynard [00:16:55]: 

Yeah. So there are certainly religious groups and churches that make this very explicit. They are prosperity gospel churches. This is where you see pastors in the US Particularly, I’m sure it’s in Canada as well. But where you see people who have private jets and they’re like, God has blessed me so much. And also you need to send me a hundred dollars. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:13]: 

Of course, God will bless you too. Yes, yeah, yeah. 

Emily Maynard [00:17:18]: 

Very explicit about that. And then I think there’s a lot more subtlety. I mean, we could talk about sort of the American individualism and some of the principles that continue to shape our nation, but I think a big piece of it in the US Is a huge amount of personal financial education happens in one specific conservative or kind of fundamentalist Christian affiliated program and it’s marketed through churches. So not only are you getting moral education around money and wealth, but often churches are offering classes in one particular system that does tend to promote, you know, one size fits all. There is one way to manage money and it’s very shame based. You know, it’s your, your fault is you’re not achieving advancement or success by following these rules rather than sort of teaching people principles and helping them understand their current situation and how to apply some of those principles like high control groups or high control organizations or philosophies don’t want you to think for yourself. They’re not going to give you principles to guide you. They’re going to give you specific actions to follow and when those don’t work, they will blame you. 

Emily Maynard [00:18:33]: 

It must be your fault. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:36]: 

Right. And I do see and we will not name and I, you know the exact educational organization that you are referring to. But I certainly see a lot of shame specifically around debt, which would be kind of like the opposite of being prosperous. 

Emily Maynard [00:18:50]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:50]: 

Like having debt is a very shameful thing. And this is something that I see therapists coming into my program into money skills for therapists sometimes struggling with is they have become so focused on paying down debt that it’s so bad that they have debt. And specifically that’s usually like consumer debt, student loans. We tend, there tends to be less shame and charge around. But any kind of consumer debt folks are so focused on trying to make that go away because it must say XYZ about them. Like it’s so embarrassing and shameful that they have this debt that they do so kind of at their own financial peril today and focus so hard on paying down that debt that then they end up having to put money back on that credit card because they’re not giving themselves any breathing room. Right. Like it’s this kind of intense project to try to get out of debt and therefore get out of shame. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:36]: 

That is often at their own detriment. And is this part of kind of prosperity doctrine that like debt would be shameful like, or is this kind of a different, different school? I’m assuming these things go together. 

Emily Maynard [00:19:49]: 

Yes, it’s absolutely included in this idea that if you are following the rules, if you’re doing well morally, spiritually, that’s going to come with financial stability as well. Right. That really, if you’re doing the right things, right. You won’t have these problems like needing to use a credit card to provide for your family or have some basic resources or even a little bit of fun in your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:12]: 

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So how do you see it as, like, particularly challenging for folks to come from these high control religion contexts into, like, private practice? Right. Like, I see that we kind of. I was kind of joking earlier about this maybe path or hierarchy of, you know, control and private practice is a very different thing where we have to be making our own choices. What do you see as challenging about making the transition from this, like, high control background into being your own boss in a private practice? 

Emily Maynard [00:20:44]: 

I think even that making your own decisions is really hard for people who grew up in a system where they were told the right thing to do, always where that came through an authority structure. You know, from pastor to parents to children, they’re used to believing that there’s one right way and that somebody else is going to help them do that. Rather than starting from the ground up and developing the skills and values to be able to say, no, I can’t adjust my time schedule to fit in this client. Even when I really connect with them, I need to make sure they get to another clinician who can meet their scheduling needs. It’s really easy to, in these tiny little increments, to compromise your values. And that’s how you end up building yourself your own terrible agency. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:32]: 

Yes. 

Emily Maynard [00:21:33]: 

Because you’re waiting for somebody else to save you, when really the thing that will help you is to deal with the grief of saying, no, I can’t accommodate that fee. But let me get you to somebody who can to do the practice of the challenging relational practice of stating your fee and saying, you know, I really need to increase my fee. Let’s figure out how to do that. These are really tough decisions, and they’re constant. In private practice, they happen all the time because you’re the one doing everything. Or in a group practice, you are helping people make decisions that will help them function well in your business or not. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:13]: 

Yes. Yeah. In private practice, you are the one who’s in control. But yeah, I’m hearing for folks who’ve had these experiences that might be a very uncomfortable, unfamiliar place to be. 

Emily Maynard [00:22:23]: 

Yeah. And often we hear from people who are a little further ahead on the road who are like, yeah, my caseload’s full. You know, it’s pretty. It’s pretty great. And if you’re not in that place yet, it’s going to bring up a lot of those feelings of what’s wrong with me that I’m not there yet. Why don’t I have an Easy practice that you talk about or why is my marketing, like, so terrifying to me? Because marketing is all about being visible and telling people like, hey, I’m here and I can help with this specific thing. And that is frightening for people who grew up in communities where being singled out means you’re in trouble. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:01]: 

Yes, yes. So for folks who are listening right now who are like, yes, that is me, hands up, I came from that place. What would you suggest to them to start to heal from these experiences that they had? What are some starting places? 

Emily Maynard [00:23:16]: 

I think part of my healing and what’s helped me in, you know, personally and build my practice is that I had to get really realistic about what I can actually do. Again, I was raised with this idea, like, through Christ, I can do all things. And I had to, in building my practice, figure out how many clients can I actually see and be an ethical clinician and keep myself well back from the brink of making ethical or technical mistakes by working too much. That actually helped me make some of those decisions is I knew I didn’t want to hurt people in this work. I’ve met plenty of people who were hurt by their therapist or, you know, a spiritual leader or counselor before, and I knew I didn’t want to do that. So then I had to get really realistic about, like, well, how do I do that? That means I can’t be on the edge of burnout. That means I can’t be frustrated when a client, you know, cancels right before the window and I don’t get their fee that week. Like, I have to build a practice that doesn’t keep me needing something for my clients so I can be available to them. 

Emily Maynard [00:24:19]: 

So one thing that I think is really helpful, and it’s a little bit silly, is writing out your job description. Even if you’re in private practice, like, what tasks are you responsible for? What hours will you work, what salary will you get? And you can sort of do a before and after. Like, do that, what is it currently? And that’s going to reveal a lot about, would you accept this if somebody else was paying you this little money to work this many hours to do all these, like, high level responsibilities and deep clinical work and then figure out what job description and salary, what’s your offer that you would accept? And then figuring out with any programs like yours, how do you actually build some of those practices into your business? 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:03]: 

Yeah, I’m quite struck by that motivator of kind of not doing harm, because I’ve certainly thought and chatted with folks over the years about being honest, about the impact of overworking. You’re not showing up as your best self. And, and I talk about that because I think that’s a motivator for me is like, I always want to be doing my best. Right. Like, you know, making sure that that client at the end of the day is. Is getting as good of a session as a client at the beginning of the day as much as possible. Right. But that’s a very powerful motivator to also make sure you’re not hurting people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:30]: 

Right. That you are not, you know, as you say, making like, ethical mistakes or technical mistakes. Because I think that’s something that as a profession that’s already prone to. To martyrdom, even before this complex layer that you’re talking about, it can be easy for us to not really be honest about the impact of not holding our boundaries. Right. And so that’s very powerful. It’s kind of like it feels like it could be like a little bit of a gut punch for some people who have been hurt, you know, and don’t want to hurt. But that’s really motivating is like, you don’t want to be causing harm in the world to really be honest about. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:02]: 

Yeah, what is the cost of overworking and saying, yes, too much and yeah, having to work so many sessions a week and having that resentment. If somebody’s life comes up, there is going to be actually negative impact interpersonally from you not actually taking care of yourself. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. This was, like, very, very illuminating. It’s got my wheels turning in all sorts of ways. I’m thinking about all sorts of folks I’ve known over the years or folks that we’ve had in money skills for therapists. Can you tell us more about what you do? If people are listening and they’re like, oh, my gosh, I need to learn more. I need to be around this person. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:39]: 

Where can they find you? 

Emily Maynard [00:26:40]: 

Absolutely. The best way to find me is on Instagram. I’mardlmft. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist in California. I have a private practice, but it’s full right now. So you can also find me@emilymaynardtherapy.com and I’m starting to do some more speaking and training on a lot of these topics. So when I have those opportunities available, I’ll put them on my Instagram. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:03]: 

Wonderful. Great. Thank you so much for joining me today, Emily. I really learned a lot in this conversation with Emily today. As I mentioned, this is not an area that I have Personal experience, but certainly an area that I do see come up for therapists in money skills for therapists and in different ways in which high control religion has shaped their relationship with money. And I loved Emily’s point about how the messaging we receive is not always accepted. Explicit messaging about money in general is not always explicit, you know, but we absorb the information about what is going to be approved of, what is going to get us like love and belonging and status in these kinds of groups. And we absorb what is going to get us ostracized, right, or cast aside or maybe even make us have to, to leave the group that we are part of. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:00]: 

And, and the same can be true in families too, right? Even in families, as Emily mentioned, there can be high control aspects and we internalize and understand what is going to get us in trouble, right? What is going to make us belong less. So all these imprints on our nervous systems, all these deeply, deeply held beliefs that maybe were not ever verbalized, but we’re still absorbed and received. You know, we’re all walking around with a bunch of these. So if the information that Emily shared today has got you thinking about some of the messaging that you’ve received, this is a great chance for you to just sit and be with that and be curious about some of the stories that, that you’ve absorbed and question whether or not those are stories that you still want to believe. Now, do those align with your values today? Does that align with how you think life should actually work? Because so often these imprints that we have far outlive our actual current beliefs. So there’s always a gap, you know, between what we’ve absorbed and what’s sitting in our nervous system and where we are now intellectually. So lots and lots to explore here. Do check out Emily on Instagram. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:10]: 

We will put the link for her Instagram bio in our show notes so it’s easy for you to find. And thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling calm and clear and empowered about money, my free on demand masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances totally working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or you can go to moneynutsandbolts.com and click on Masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]: 

Yeah. What do you see as the cost of hustle for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:00:03]: 

The constant needing to hustle. Yeah. The constant need. I can’t stop. I’m like the energizer bunny. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:10]: 

Yes. Yes. You can’t stop. And I’m curious. What is not happening for you while you’re focused on whatever you’re working on? While you can’t stop, what is not happening that could be happening if you were able to slow down? Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:49]: 

You’ll find the link in the show notes or at moneynutsandbolts.com under Masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Jenny Jonker. Jenny Jonker is a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Practice Owners, and she is the owner of Dragonfly Counseling and Wellness. Today, Jenny and I dig into how her immigrant story, that experience of survival and having to hustle, and continues to show up in her entrepreneurial journey. Today, Jenny shares about how hard it is for her to slow down, to get out of that hustle mode, and we dig into the roots of that, we look at the impacts of that, and we start to explore how to bring more presence into her life and her experience of her business. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:46]: 

I think this is so common for so many of us with, you know, our own variations of our past experiences keep us stuck in a place that is not the place that we are now. And that is certainly the case for Jenny. The space between where she came from and where she is now is a huge gap. So today we explore how to help her be more present in what she has built through the work that she’s done as a therapist with her group practice. Here is my coaching conversation with Jenny Jonker. So, Jenny, welcome to the podcast. 

Jenny Jonker [00:02:25]: 

Thank you so much. I’m so honored to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:28]: 

I am so excited to have you here. So, Jenny, for our time together today, what would be helpful for us to dig into? 

Jenny Jonker [00:02:36]: 

I’m starting to come to terms that my journey as a business owner and Entrepreneur is kind of being enmeshed with my immigrant story and how I was raised. And I think that that has a lot to do with my money mindset and being able to really be present of where I am and how my business is thriving and figuring out, you know, how to get past some of those, like, mindset hurdles. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:05]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:05]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:06]: 

And what are you seeing come up that, you know, is your immigrant story kind of popping up today? 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:11]: 

I feel like I. I’m constantly in the hustle. I’m really trying to be mindful and present and not getting caught up in the hustle so much, because when I do that, I lose sight of purpose. And one of the reasons why I opened up Dragonfly Counseling and Wellness was to honor my story and to be able to be present for people in a way that I wish that my family members had done so had. Had gotten that type of therapy, and also the way that I wish people had showed up for me. And so I really want to be able to honor that in a very unique way. But I find that when I’m stuck in the hustle, I lose sight of purpose. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:57]: 

Okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:03:58]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:58]: 

What happens when you’re in the hustle? What is that like for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:01]: 

I feel that I need more. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:05]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:06]: 

And I need more. I need more. And I don’t stop to see exactly how much I have built. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:13]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:13]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:14]: 

You’re always looking at the next thing that you need to get. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:16]: 

Yeah. And I think, too, you know, I come from. I’m an immigrant family. You know, we came to Canada as refugees and fleeing from war. And so survival was our top priority. We didn’t grow up talking about mental health. Our focus was staying afloat, working hard, pushing through. And I saw that through all my family had to work survival jobs, essentially. 

Jenny Jonker [00:04:40]: 

You know, like, my mom was a surgical nurse at the military hospital in Nicaragua, and when we had to leave and come to Canada, her degree wasn’t transferable here. And so they had to work survival jobs. They worked on farms, tobacco, ginseng, all that stuff. And I actually ended up having to do the same thing, too. And so for us, it was really hard, and rest wasn’t something that we understood. Hustle was our default. And I. Even though that mindset has led me to where I am today, I think that that’s also one of the things that has come as a cost. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:18]: 

Yeah. What do you see as the cost of hustle for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:21]: 

The constant needing to hustle. Yeah, the constant. Can’t stop. I can’t stop. I’m like, the Energizer Bunny. Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:29]: 

Yes. You can’t stop. And I’m curious what is not happening for you while you’re focused on whatever you’re working on, while you can’t stop what is not happening that could be happening if you were able to slow down. 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:41]: 

I’m trying to be more mindful of it. Right. Like even transitioning and opening up my own clinic and getting it started the way that it started. And just I remember you saying you built Rome in a day and now you want it to be a throbbing monopolist. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:56]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:05:57]: 

And sometimes I joke about it and tell people about that comment that you made. Sometimes it’s hard for me to really sit in it and recognize how successful it actually has become. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:09]: 

Yeah. Because your, your story for folks who don’t have the pleasure of knowing you, like, I do. Like, you just started A group practice 6 1/2 months ago. And what is that looking like right now? 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:21]: 

We’re doing really good, you know, and even being able to say like, we’re doing really good and say it with like optimistically optimistic, Right. Or hesitantly optimistic, right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:31]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:32]: 

Because that immigrant part of me is like, is that enough? Is that enough? 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:38]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:06:39]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:39]: 

I mean, if we zoom out on this a little bit, I’m curious, like I’m hearing, you know, this is your family story. This, this was, this was your parents experience of adulthood, right. Is they had to flee somewhere. They lost their status, like in terms of lost professional status, had to work these survival jobs. You also had to work some survival jobs. I think about that as a transition. Right. It’s like transitioning from one place where you did have establishment to a new place where. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:07]: 

And we could talk about that, where systems don’t recognize professionalism, which I think is a whole other fucked up thing. But this was your parents experience. What did your parents want for you? 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:18]: 

You know, I remember growing up and my mom saying, education for you is the greatest success. Right. Like that is going to get you out of poverty. And the biggest legacy that I could ever leave you is leave you with an education. And so that for me has always been my driving force. You know, I have three degrees, I have a master’s, I have all of these other certifications under my belt. And now I have a practice, a thriving practice. And so that for me is, is the legacy that I leave behind for my parents. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:54]: 

Yeah, you’ve done the thing that I wanted for you. 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:56]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:07:57]: 

Yes. You’re doing the thing. 

Jenny Jonker [00:07:58]: 

I am. I’m doing the thing. Right. And. But it’s kind of learning to slow down and recognize that you have made it. And I even say you have made it with, like, hesitation, right? Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:12]: 

Because tell me what the fear of slowing down, what would happen for the part of you that’s afraid? We know there’s, like, other perspectives on this, but for the part of you that is worried or afraid, what would happen if you slowed down a little bit? 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:26]: 

The thought that came to mind was, I’ll become complacent. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:29]: 

Okay. Okay. Tell me more about that. 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:32]: 

Like, I’ll just. I’ll get stuck. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:36]: 

Okay. And where does that idea come from that if you slowed down, you would actually get stuck? 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:41]: 

I think it’s that constant needing to hustle. Right. And so if you’re not hustling, then you’re not moving, and if you’re not moving, then you’re stuck, right? 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:50]: 

Yeah. Like, I’m hearing they’re kind of like a black and white framing. 

Jenny Jonker [00:08:54]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:08:54]: 

It’s like you’re either, like, hustling, you’re going super hard, or you’re, like, not moving at all. 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:00]: 

Yeah. And starting my own practice wasn’t just a professional milestone for me. Like, starting my own practice was about breaking cycles. It was about breaking intergenerational trauma, the poverty, all of those things. Right. Like, it was building something of my own. And as a woman of color and being part of a marginalized community, you know, it felt like reclaiming my space, rewriting my narrative, and showing up in spaces that not a lot of people look like me, that show up. And so even though, like I said, like, our practice is going really good, we have four caseloads, we have a growing team, and I’m very proud of where it is. 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:43]: 

Sometimes the struggle feels like it’s just not enough. Right. Or sometimes the hustle feels like it’s not enough. Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:50]: 

Yeah. Yeah. Because that. The hustle, then when would that part be satisfied? Like, what? What is enough? 

Jenny Jonker [00:09:58]: 

I don’t know. And I think that that’s part of. That’s why I say it’s an ongoing thing for me. And I’m starting to really recognize that. And being an immigrant and having my own history and the way that I grew up, I think has really informed my practice and how I show up with clients and how I want to create this space with intention and be able to share my story and my experiences of hardship and poverty with clients in a way that helps them have hope. Perhaps that might be my Enough. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:33]: 

Okay. Yeah. Because if that is the enough, how close are you to that place? 

Jenny Jonker [00:10:39]: 

I think I’ve done it. Yeah. Like even yesterday I was having a, a conversation with a client and there was a lot of shame around their money story and not knowing how to use their finances. And we work primarily with indigenous populations and it was sharing some of my stories of how when I went to university and that I didn’t know how to use finances. I had no idea, you know, I racked up credit cards and did all that stuff. And so being able to share that experience of there’s no shame in it really helped to bridge that gap. And for them to also recognize that it’s okay, there’s really no shame in it. So I think being able to use my personal experiences as a place where there’s that commonality with clients has really helped. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:31]: 

Yes. So I’m gonna ask you now to slow down and sink into that experience yesterday, thinking about not just that conversation and your ability to use your own experiences, excellent use of self, by the way, but also the container that you’re doing it within. You know, you’ve created a group that is very much like your vision, your values, Serving the folks that you thrive in serving and helping them thrive. Thinking about that conversation yesterday and all the things that are built around it that made it possible. What do you notice? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:04]: 

I think that I was able to really connect with that individual in a way that not a lot of people can. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:12]: 

So I’m going to ask you to sink into that a little bit more because I’m hearing, I think is up here sinking down into your body. What is it like to be with that interaction you had yesterday? What do you notice in your body? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:24]: 

I think there’s a sense of relief and satisfaction that I’m able to, to do that and to show up in, in those spaces with people. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:33]: 

Okay, relief, satisfaction. 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:36]: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:37]: 

Are there any other emotions in the mix there? 

Jenny Jonker [00:12:40]: 

Calmness, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:43]: 

Because what I’m. What I’m noticing even in this conversation today is you’re so like head, head led when it comes to this stuff. It’s like I think this and I think that and, and you’re fucking brilliant. So the things you’re thinking are wonderful. Right. But it’s like there’s still this very much like, almost like I’m seeing like your head, like pulling your body along for the ride. Does that kind of image resonate? 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:06]: 

Oh, for sure, for sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:08]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:08]: 

Like, I have such a deep rooted scarcity mindset that it, it creeps in so many different ways and it just keeps saying, keep building, keep, keep providing, keep doing. And I think slowing down sometimes feels unsafe. Sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:25]: 

Yeah. Yeah. And what. What is unsafe about slowing down? 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:29]: 

What if it all goes away? 

Linzy Bonham [00:13:30]: 

Okay. Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:13:32]: 

And I know that even my clinic, the. Like, the Dragonfly, all of it, that there’s so much of me and my story, and the reason why I started it, to honor my nephew, is also highly linked to it, too. And so there’s so much attached to it that. That’s also. If I keep. If I stop hustling, that’s where the. What if it all goes away? But I’m already here. I’m already doing the thing that I sought out to do. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:02]: 

Yes. Yes. And it’s working. 

Jenny Jonker [00:14:04]: 

It’s working. Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:06]: 

Can you hear yourself say that? That it’s working? 

Jenny Jonker  

[00:14:09]: 

Mm. Yeah, I do 

Linzy Bonham [00:14:13]: 

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you notice hearing that again? 

Jenny Jonker [00:14:17]: 

It’s, like, hesitantly optimistic. And so I’ve started to actually just sit in the space that I have, because it is mine, and it is very. There’s parts of him everywhere in that space. You know, Like, I have his diploma, and I have. Beside his diploma, I have a sign that says, she believed she could, so she did. And so sometimes even when I come into the space before all the girls come in, I just walk around in silence, or I’ll just sit there, and I’ll be like, good morning. Right. And so I’m very intentional, and I try to, like, really slow it down so that I know that that space is mine and so that I know that I’m safe and I know that it’s okay to be in that space because it is all mine. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:06]: 

Yeah, it is. Now, this makes me curious about the rest of your life. Right. Because I know you hustle, which makes you busy, and I know you also have high capacity, which I think really needs to be acknowledged. Right. Like, I think we all have different hustle capacity. Your capacity, I would say, is quite a bit higher than my capacity, which also means, like, what we’re able to do is different. We have to do different math as we’re thinking about these things. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:29]: 

Right. But I am thinking about, you know, your. Your parents brought you here to help you get. When I hear education, I hear, like, stability. There’s, like, a class piece to education, right? Where you have access to certain professional jobs, which gives you a certain life. Tell me about how your life is feeling right now. 

Jenny Jonker [00:15:50]: 

Good. I mean, I think now I’m starting to just do things even within my own private life. Like, you know, for the longest time, it was getting a pool at our house, and always that, like, what if it. What If I don’t have enough, what if I can’t do it? Blah, blah. And now it’s just like, you know what? I’m just gonna fuck it. I’m gonna do it, and we’ll figure it out after. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:16]: 

Right? 

Jenny Jonker [00:16:17]: 

And so we’re in the process of building a deck now. We have a nice pool. Like, we’re doing the things. Because when you’ve been bereaved, when you have had a lot of loss and, you know, even from the moment that we landed on that we came to Canada and stepped foot in this country, we were bereaved because we had a loss. And so my whole entire life has been about loss and bereavement. Right. And I think that that has taught me to live life with intention and to do the things regardless of how hard the struggle is. Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:16:51]: 

And so even building the pool and doing all those things, I really started to become more present and recognize that you’ll figure it out. It will be okay. Right. Even though you’re doing this thing, scared you’re still just gonna do it? Yes. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:08]: 

Yes. And what does that represent to you, the pool and the deck? 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:12]: 

Accomplishments. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:14]: 

It’s accomplishment. It’s like a certain, like, lifestyle kind of level or something else. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:20]: 

Accomplishment. And. Yeah, I mean, it’s. It’s being able to say, like, I guess, too, having a visual representation of how hard I’ve worked and to be like, I can. I can now I’m in a place where I can afford this. Like, I don’t have to go and work in tobacco fields in order to afford this anymore. Right. Like, I could do this and I will be okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:43]: 

We can take trips and we will be okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:46]: 

Yeah, I think you’ll be more than okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:17:48]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:49]: 

What I’m thinking about as we’re talking is, like, there really is this shift that takes time, and it is hard to make between survival and living and thriving. I wouldn’t say it’s kind of like, in terms of business, you are moving into that thriving space, and you’re moving kind of at rocket speed, because that’s the speed at which you move, which I know from knowing you. Like, you know, from. From the time we started working together in money skills. Money skills for therapist, the solo course to now is not that much time. And a lot has changed for you. You’ve done a lot. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:21]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:22]: 

So you. You’re able to move quickly to build your businesses. You’re smart, you’re competent, you learn, you apply things. But it’s like your nervous system is still back in that surviving Place. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:35]: 

Yeah. I find that sometimes, like, it’s hard for my brain to recognize that, like, this is where I am, because it keeps thinking that this is where you were before. And so it hasn’t caught up yet, I guess. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:50]: 

Yes. 

Jenny Jonker [00:18:51]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:51]: 

It makes me think about, you know, time, orientation, you know, with. With trauma, and, like, actually being able to be here and sitting where you are right now, which, you know, folks who are listening can’t see this because we’re. We’re not going to do video for this episode, but Jenny has this gorgeous sunroom, which I always find very inspiring when I see you sitting here. And she showed me, before we started recording her backyard with this new pool and the deck that’s being built and all these, like, gorgeous green trees. You sitting there now. Can I ask you to take a moment, to take in the fact that this is yours? This is the life that you are building and have built. This is your place. 

Jenny Jonker [00:19:31]: 

No, that’s crazy. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:32]: 

Yeah. What do you notice taking that in and give it a second. You just moved at Jenny speed. And ask you to slow down just a little more. Slow down and take it in. You have built all this. This is yours. This is your home. 

Jenny Jonker [00:19:48]: 

The holy fuck moment. Holy crap. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:57]: 

And I’m curious, like, what parts of you are surprised by it? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:01]: 

A little immigrant girl. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:03]: 

Yeah. Yeah. Is that a part of you that you’ve done trauma work with, or emdr? Oh, yeah, for sure, it’s a part, you know. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:10]: 

Well, yeah, my younger part of self. Right. I call her little one. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:14]: 

Little one. Okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:15]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:16]: 

And does little one know about your business that you’ve built? Does she know about the group and the work that you do? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:23]: 

Oh, yeah. Right. Like, I think even doing the transition and the shift from doing, you know, having a partnership to. To now being solo practice, I mean, to. To now being group practice on my own, there’s a lot of work that I had to do with her. A lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:40]: 

You’ve definitely done a lot of the. The hard things to get to where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:44]: 

Oh, yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:45]: 

A lot of the scary things. Yeah. So what does this part of you think about this life that you’ve built? 

Jenny Jonker [00:20:53]: 

I don’t think she ever thought she could. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:55]: 

So there’s still that, like, surprise, disbelief. What is it? Is there acceptance there and, like, ownership? 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:02]: 

I think she’s excited to get into that pool 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:04]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:07]: 

No, yeah. You know, I think it’s. I think I know that when I’m in the hustle and when I feel that I need to keep Going, I know that that’s my younger part of self that comes out because she’s the one that was held back. She’s the one that needed to prove herself in a world where she doesn’t look like the rest. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:32]: 

Right. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:33]: 

In a world where you’re the minority and you’ve got to hustle for your sense of self worth. And I think I’m at the point where my, you know, older part of self says, hey, it’s okay. We’ve made really great choices up to now. And I got you. Right. Like, I’ve got you. It’s okay. It’s okay. 

Jenny Jonker [00:21:52]: 

And sometimes I, like, stop myself and I tell myself that and I hold my heart and I say, we’re okay. We’ve got this. Right. And I think it’s taken a lot for me to get to that place. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:03]: 

And it’s. It’s a process. Right. Like, it’s like, you are your life. Up until now, so much of it was defined by this, like, survival and having to fight for your place and that immigrant legacy. Right. Like, that’s. That’s been most of your life. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:22]: 

And like, proportionally, if we think about it, what portion of your life do you feel like you’ve really started to. To have that full sense of, like, agency effectiveness? I can build what I want. What portion of your life has been that? 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:36]: 

I’d probably say that’s been something that’s recent. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:39]: 

Like how recent? 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:41]: 

Since I went on my own. Okay. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:43]: 

So that was eight months ago, six months ago. 

Jenny Jonker [00:22:47]: 

@ this point, I really started to really step into it and started to really take ownership of things because I realized I’ve worked really hard to get to where I am now, and I’m at the point in my life where I don’t need to eat it anymore. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:01]: 

Yes. Okay, so quick math. I’m just going to round. I’m going to say that that’s probably about 2% of your life that you’ve been in this place, and 98% was getting you up to that place. So it makes a lot of sense that there’s still going to be this old pattern, an old way of doing things, because statistically speaking, this is very, very new. Right. But also, it occurs to me that, you know, by that same logic, the more time that passes, the more and more and more of your life will be life spent in this place where you’ve been able to see kind of the fruits of your labor. 

Jenny Jonker [00:23:36]: 

Yeah. And I think it’s. It’s nice to be able to see the fruits of My labor and to see how hard I’ve worked to get here and to allow myself to be in those spaces, to be present. And I think that’s something that I’m really working on is to allow myself to be present. Yeah. And that’s. 

Linzy Bonham [00:23:54]: 

That’s the curiosity that I have now at this point in the conversation is like, how do you give yourself more of. Of that? Like, I’m hearing you already have developed some practices around being present, like letting yourself really be present in the morning when you go into your space. What else can be integrated into your life to give yourself more and more of those experiences of just being exactly where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:24:14]: 

It’s interesting because I use this technique with clients all the time and I tell them about. You know, there was moments where when I first moved into. To this house and my kids were playing on the playground and my husband was, like, playing around with a dog and everything, and I was like, oh, my gosh, things are good. And I was like, good job. We have this beautiful home. Everything’s great. And then all of a sudden, I had this just like, anxiety come over me. And that’s the foreboding joy of, holy shit, something bad is going to happen. 

Jenny Jonker [00:24:47]: 

And the reality is, when you have had a lot of trauma or have had a lot of bereavement in your life, that foreboding joy is very real. Right. Because you. You go into this mindset that things like this don’t happen to people like me. Right. And so a technique that I. That I. I always use is that when I am in moments of happiness and rejoice and things are great, I close my eyes and I count to three, and I say, when you open your eyes, it means that you are really here, that you deserve this, and that this is where you are. 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:28]: 

Right. And I will open my eyes. And sometimes, to be honest, it’s scary to open my eyes, but that helps me to become present and it helps my brain to recognize. No, this is actually happening to you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:40]: 

Can we do that now? 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:41]: 

Sure. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:42]: 

Okay. Do you want to coach yourself or do you want me to talk you through that? 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:45]: 

You can talk me through it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:47]: 

Okay. Okay. So close your eyes. We’re going to count to three, and when you open your eyes, you’re going to be able to really take in that this is where you are, this is yours. 

Jenny Jonker [00:25:58]: 

You’ve built this pretty cool. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:02]: 

What emotions are you noticing? 

Jenny Jonker [00:26:03]: 

I’m happy. I really am happy. I’m very grateful. I’m very grateful. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:10]: 

And I encourage you to keep giving yourselves more Experiences of that. And I think too also, as you build up the practice, starting to build the practice to make sure that you’re getting good amounts of time off, starting to look at your schedule. Cause I think that I’m also thinking about your business. There are gonna be these next level steps that you’re able to put in place as the business gets into that more of a hum where you’re like, okay, we’ve been in this place now for like a year and a half. I can breathe. You know, the buffers are there. All those practical things that we’ve worked together on in money skills for practice owners. You’re also gonna be able to build bigger sections of time where you just get to be whatever that is for you, whether that’s travel or just having some time at home or always taking Friday afternoons off. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:51]: 

Do you have a sense of what some of that could be for you as you continue to build out the business? 

Jenny Jonker [00:26:55]: 

I am starting to be more mindful of my schedule, setting certain days, especially with the summer and the kids, and setting time aside for them. I’m really trying to be more mindful of that and taking vacation. Even though in the back of your mind you’re like, should you do that? Blah, blah. It’s like, no, I have to. It’s not whether should you or not. It’s that I have to. Right? And the grounding and being like, no, it’s okay. Like, you don’t constantly need to hustle. 

Jenny Jonker [00:27:25]: 

Like, it’s, you’re okay. And I think, like I said, like, that goes back to I know where it comes from. I know that it’s my immigrant story. I know that it’s that the fear that if I don’t hustle, then it will all go away. And that’s just the foreboding joy. I know that. And it’s just slowing myself down. Slowing it down. 

Jenny Jonker [00:27:45]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:27:46]: 

Because it sounds like that is one of the antidotes to the foreboding joy that you’ve identified in your own clinical work is just like, just slowing down and being with and noticing and something else that comes to mind. Another, like, clinical phrase is the positive affect tolerance, which I know for me in my life has been something I’ve really had to work on, that it’s actually like, it’s okay to feel good and it’s okay. And like, when we’re not used to that, that’s actually a new skill to build too. Right. It’s just to be able to be with the good and not have that mean that you Know as that logic in our brain can be, it’s good. Therefore something bad is going to happen. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:20]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:20]: 

But like, this is real nervous system retraining that you’re doing now 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:24]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:25]: 

That you can do from the place that you’ve built. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:27]: 

Yeah. And it’s taken a lot of work to get to that place and slowly for surely sometimes it’s uncomfortable and I don’t like it, but I know that it’s something that I. That I have to do because I have purpose. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:42]: 

So, Jenny, coming towards the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:46]: 

That I am okay. I am okay. I’m in a really good place and I’m very grateful to say it and I shouldn’t be afraid to say that I am in a good place. 

Linzy Bonham [00:28:55]: 

And you’ve worked hard to get here. 

Jenny Jonker [00:28:57]: 

And I’ve worked really hard to get here. Very hard. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:00]: 

Yeah. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:00]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:01]: 

Right. Jenny, before we finish up, I’m curious for some folks listening, they’re going to be, you know, maybe they’ve been around in my world for a while and they’re like, one day, maybe I’ll take Money Skills for Therapists. Do you have any thoughts or anything you want to share about your experience with Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners? Maybe for somebody who really identifies with you who would be listening. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:22]: 

Honestly, like, before I took the course, I had no idea. Like, I was scared of taxes. I would, like, taxes would come around and I’d be like, oh, my God, I’m like freaking out. And it’s interesting because this is the first year that I didn’t, like, freak out about taxes. I was okay. And I was actually talking to my bookkeeper about it. And before I used to be like, oh, it’s a write off. It’s a write off. 

Jenny Jonker [00:29:47]: 

And now I’m like, okay, show me the P and L sheet. Show me this, show me that. Like, what are the metrics? All this stuff. And I’ve just grown substantial. And honestly, if it wasn’t for your courses, I don’t think I would have made the leap of faith that I did and be in the place that I am now. And I will forever be grateful for it because I think I really found myself in this course. Thank you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:10]: 

Thanks for sharing that, Jenny. And I am amazed by you always. You are a force of nature. And also I’m excited for you to develop the ability to just enjoy what you’ve built, too. 

Jenny Jonker [00:30:20]: 

Thank you. Thank you. I’m so appreciative of you. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:23]: 

Thanks, Jenny. 

Jenny Jonker [00:30:27]: 

Foreign. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:29]: 

I’m so happy that Jenny joined me on the podcast today. She is a true force of nature in the money Skills for group practice owners course. A couple times I, you know, would introduce her on calls as like the incomparable Jenny Jonker. Because Jenny is an incredibly high capacity person who can achieve a lot in a short period of time. And I, I realized in doing that, and Jenny and I were chatting about this a little bit after our recording, I am also, also kind of like feeding into that hustle side, right? So when we are in this like business building space and when we are kind of on the achiever side of things, it’s easy for us to really validate other people’s abilities to build huge things because it is awesome and amazing. But also as Jenny was talking about, it’s so important too, when you are that kind of person to actually be able to stop and be present and enjoy what you’ve built. Because otherwise kind of like, what’s the point if we can’t actually enjoy what we’ve built, if we can’t actually be present in the life that we’ve created, then to our nervous system, it’s like it’s not even really real. You know, we’re still in that past place, we’re still in that, that childhood and that survival space. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:37]: 

So I’m continually impressed by Jenny and also really excited for her to continue to develop her skills, to be able to actually sit back and enjoy that pool and take those vacations and slow down and really be in her body and take in all the benefits of the amazing things that she has built. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of money sales for therapists. If you like, Jenny are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered about money, my On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:00:00]: 

Again, I’ve run very successful Google Ads campaigns, but Google itself is a selfish and unreliable partner. They could change something like that, their policies, and they’re not going to tell you about it. It’s just going to happen. All of a sudden your ad groups are down and you’re just kind of left in the dust. And we’re not high spenders, therapists, right? We’re not like these other companies that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad spends every month, right? Maybe a couple thousand dollars. So we’re not, we’re not Google’s priority, right? So that always freaks me out a little bit when working with Google. And that’s kind of why, like SEO, we’re kind of like behind the scenes more kind of like, how are they working? Because I don’t work for them. I don’t even work with them. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:00:44]: 

I kind of work against them. 

Linzy Bonham [00:00:48]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm play, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:09]: 

Before we jump in, check out my. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:10]: 

Free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. 

Linzy Bonham [00:01:23]: 

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Kristie Plantinga. She is a mental health marketer who lives in Colorado. She’s the founder of Place Digital, which was formerly known as Therapy SEO and is a marketing agency that serves specifically therapists and coaches. Today, Kristie and I talk about the digital marketing space. We get into SEO and Google Ads and who are those for and how do they work? We talk about the importance of Google in terms of the way that folks access the Internet and the importance of being able to work with Google as it is. We talk about return on investment both. We talk about how soon you can expect to see a return on your investment when you are spending money on marketing, but also how do you calculate return on investment and how do you know whether somebody who’s come to you has actually come from this marketing activity or that marketing activity? And we also talked about the best forms of marketing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:17]: 

Whether you are just starting your solo practice or growing a solo practice or growing a good practice, there’s different levels of marketing that Kristie suggests, which is really helpful to hear. Here’s my conversation with Kristy Plantinga. So, Kristie, welcome to the podcast. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:02:41]: 

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:02:44]: 

I am excited for this conversation, too. I feel like I have a lot that I can learn from you, and I’m planning to learn from you during this conversation. No pressure. Just so you know about the marketing space, because this is certainly not my favorite part of business. And I’ve joked before when I go to, like, hire a marketing coordinator that I’m always like, so you like marketing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:03:04]: 

I don’t believe you. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:03:06]: 

I’m like, are you safe? Like, blink once if you need help because it’s certainly not what lights me up. I mean, I love doing this podcast, which is a certain kind of marketing activity, but that general kind of world, I think, is certainly not where my strengths are. Right. So it’s always, like, lovely to talk with folks who have just, like, different brains, different strengths, like different passions. And marketing for therapists is what you do. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:03:30]: 

Yeah, it’s all I do. You know, we work with therapy practices and rehab centers, but we’re solidly in the mental health space. As unique as it is, as ever changing it is, we specifically focus on website design, but SEO primarily. So all our wagons are hitched to the Google horse, you know, so it’s interesting to see how the healthcare industry and how people search and how Google wants people to search and how Google wants to make money, how that interacts with how my team does what we do to get our clients to grow their businesses. So it’s all very interconnected. And, yeah, I love it. So that’s why I’m here. 

Linzy Bonham [00:04:10]: 

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it really does make me think, like, it kind of is like Google’s universe and we just live in it at this point. In terms of the Internet, they really are like the gateway to the Internet. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:04:22]: 

I mean, it’s definitely, I think, the most used platform across all demographics, all ages, and it’s never going anywhere. I think there’s always a lot of panic, you know, oh, my gosh, people are using TikTok more in ChatGPT. Totally. Those things are search engines. And it’s always something that my team and I think about and how we can incorporate to the work that we do. But one reason that I think Google is always a solid investment is they are so motivated to make search work because it is at least 90% of their revenue comes from mostly Google Ads. But still, the Search engine as a whole, that’s really their money maker and they’re one of the biggest companies in the world, so they’re motivated to make it work. Right. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:05:08]: 

So I think there’s always going to be a path forward on Google for therapists. But as you know, the AI overviews come out. I think it’s called AI Mode or something that they’re experimenting with now. It’s all going to be change and different, but the core principles of how I think people will be ranked will stay similar because this is like an algorithm that’s been developing for decades. So of course they’re going to have crazy algorithm updates. In my team, we just observe and figure it out for a while. But yeah, Google’s not going anywhere. 

Linzy Bonham [00:05:43]: 

Yeah, I know. If I think about my own Internet usage, Google is the way into the Internet for me. And I’ve started using Google Gemini also to play especially for accounting questions. I would love to have an accountant that just lives on the couch behind me that I could just ask my questions of like, okay, wait a second, so on the balance sheet, how would this kind of transaction show? So my backup is Google Gemini. I get to ask it accounting questions, which is still Google. They certainly dominate the space and there’s a lot of money and a lot of really, really smart people who are very invested in making sure that it stays the number one search engine. So, yeah, certainly lots to be said about making Google work for you. So something Kristy, that I see a lot with group practice owners, specifically where they have to make sometimes some really big decisions around marketing, like which marketing path they’re going to go down, how much they’re going to spend as they’re trying to fill not just themselves, but many clinicians. 

Linzy Bonham [00:06:42]: 

As solo practitioners, our responsibility, our need is to fill ourself. To fill one clinician as group practice owners, they may need to fill 10 clinicians or 20 clinicians. So there’s these really big decisions they have to make about marketing. As we even just think about the kind of like investment side. How much should group practice owners, group practices be investing in their marketing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:07:06]: 

Yeah, and it’s such a tough thing to think about, right, because every practice is different, every market is different. So I could never come up with an exact figure. But what I will say is I’ve noticed a cycle, I think for group practice owners that they can sometimes fall into. And, and that’s where, you know, they’ll maybe they don’t really have a ton of marketing in place. Maybe it’s their own reputation or maybe a Facebook post in a local group kind of takes off. And then they get this flurry of inquiries. Great. But they realize they need to hire someone to accommodate those people. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:07:44]: 

So they hire someone. But that flurry of inquiries just isn’t enough to fill that caseload. And so then they’ll kind of, oh, oh, shoot, I need to do some marketing here really quick to fill this person’s caseload. But a lot of times those kind of smaller ad hoc investments don’t really pan out. And so either maybe they’ll get another client or two for their employee, or maybe they’ll just kind of be out of, you know, on the investment altogether. And those things certainly add up, you know, five or ten thousand dollars here over time. That really adds up if you think about it. And then by the end of it, they, you know, start with this company, they invest however much, and then a lot of times, like, they’re not even full. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:08:29]: 

Like the clinician isn’t even full. So then the clinician has to make the tough decision, hey, I can’t do this. I have a family, I have a livelihood that I need. So they leave and then the cycle starts again. Right. So I definitely think if you want, you know, sustainable growth, thinking about. I’m not thinking about my practice surviving the next six months. I’m thinking about how this is going to be my life and my lifestyle and my business for. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:08:54]: 

For five years. I think investments should more reflect that. Could I just spread this out kind of ad hoc over time, or should I just commit to something and work with a company that I really trust and they have results that they can show me that this has worked? I’m more partial to that just because I think so much a part of owning any business, definitely a group practice, is that founder wellbeing. That’s also kind of a meter that can run very, very low. Oh, yeah, if you’re always experiencing this. Because I understand not liking marketing, believe me, I have felt that many times when people come to our doors, they’re like, I don’t want to do this. 

Linzy Bonham [00:09:30]: 

But we get it. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:09:32]: 

You know, we’re not everyone’s favorite, favorite people to contact. But I think just for peace of mind and actual sustainable growth over time, it’s profitable. That’s not going to drive you crazy when you’re thinking about your business in the future. It’s better, I think, to just really commit to something. Go all in again with a company you trust that has a proven track record, and then do that instead of just 5,000 here, 5,000 here, 5,001 here. It’s probably not going to work, or it’s just going to take you a really long time to get where you want to be. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:05]: 

I mean, it sounds like the difference between a reactive approach and a proactive approach. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:10:10]: 

Exactly right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:11]: 

If you want to be in this business long term, if you’re not planning to close your doors in six months, then what is this work that has to happen ongoingly to create that ongoing demand for your services? And in a business mastermind that I’m in, somebody the other day said, whenever things are quiet now, she thinks about, what was I not doing six months ago? And I was like, that is very interesting because, yeah, there is a long game here too with marketing. Right. Like, it’s not always this fast thing. And I think with Google Ads, I’m curious your perspective on this. With Google Ads, what I do see is there can be this illusion. Maybe it’s not an illusion, but it can be more instant gratification, feeling where you’re like, I spent this. I got this. This is my results 

Linzy Bonham [00:10:52]: 

And I certainly know for us, when our Facebook ads have been working, it’s like that. It’s like, I spent 5,000, I made 20,000. Like, wow. It almost feels like a machine that you’re just like putting money in and you put $1 in, $4 comes out. That’s not very typical, though. And I’m curious, what do you tend to tell folks about setting expectations for time frames or how do you think about marketing and when we should expect to see returns from the activities that we’re doing? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:20]: 

Yeah. And, you know, marketers love to say it depends, especially people, you know in the SEO field. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:27]: 

Yes, of course. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:28]: 

You know, therapists like to say that too. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:29]: 

So everybody says that. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:33]: 

But, you know, I think it depends primarily on the type of marketing that you’re doing. You’re right. With kind of the advertising, whether it’s meta ads or Google Ads, it does feel a little bit like a slot machine. Kind of. You put it in and like the lever and then, ooh, it worked. Or maybe it didn’t. 

Linzy Bonham [00:11:48]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:11:48]: 

And my only thing with Google Ads, I know some group practices. They just do Google Ads. They’re happy. They love it. No notes. My issue. Google Ads that I’ve experienced, and this isn’t to say it’s the same for everyone. Again, I’ve run very successful Google Ads campaigns, but Google itself is a selfish and unreliable partner. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:10]: 

They could change something like that, their policies. And they’re not going to tell you about it, it’s just going to happen. All of a sudden your ad groups are down and you’re just kind of left in the dust. And we’re not high spenders, therapists, right? We’re not like these other companies that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad spends every month, right? Maybe a couple thousand dollars. So we’re not, we’re not Google’s priority. Right. So that always freaks me out a little bit when working with Google. And that’s kind of why like SEO, we’re kind of like behind the scenes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:42]: 

How are they working? Because I don’t work for them, I don’t even them, I kind of work against them. Right. We’re like very scrappy people on my team. 

Linzy Bonham [00:12:50]: 

So we kind of that, you know. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:12:52]: 

Like we like the feeling of kind of figuring it out and on Google and their wins and stuff. And we do to a certain extent because it’s our job. But I think again, especially with a group practice, because you just have so much more responsibility in terms of the livelihoods, the families that you’re supporting, thinking about something more sustainable, more long term is the way to go. SEO, traditionally, yeah, that can have a longer turnaround, but there are certainly things that at least my team does where we can, you know, get people, clients, certainly within a couple months. And sometimes that’s typical for a Google Ads campaign as well. If it takes time to kind of figure out the market, optimize the campaign, tweak the landing page, who knows. So I think timelines can actually be similar with SEO if you’re doing certain things, which is something that my team always prioritizes because we know that it’s not fun to have to wait for results and it doesn’t feel good when you’re spending money and you’re not getting that fun slot machine back. You don’t get that with SEO necessarily. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:13:57]: 

But I just always encourage practice owners to think about, let’s not think about where you want your practice to be in three months, although that can be very exciting. And there’s lots of stuff we can do during that time. But what about one year from now? Where do you want to be? So I think it’s more about perspective in terms of that. But when you’re working with a marketing company, because it really is all about results. It’s about, did I get a return on the investment that I put into this? It’s the most important thing really, when you’re working with a marketing company. A lot of times I see marketing companies do this and then of course, you know, the therapists or other clients that come to them focus on this as well. It’s kind of this deliverables focus. What deliverables am I getting? How many pieces of content am I getting? How many backlinks am I getting? Stuff like that. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:14:44]: 

More focus on, like, what is. What are you actually gonna get me in the result? Because I could create you 12 pieces of mental health content within an hour within AI. Right. Or I can make you one really, really good one. So let’s not compare deliverables because it’s more about what’s ranking, what’s working. So that’s kind of where I’m. I’m really just big on is who are you working with and what are this kind of outcomes they’ve seen for practices like yours? What are the things that they’re seeing working now? Have they updated their strategies in the last year, which is important? Like, minimum a year, we update our strategies. It feels like every three months at this point, just because of Google. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:15:22]: 

So, yeah. Not an exact idea on timelines, but I would say with Google Ads, probably within two months, and with SEO, within six months, you should be seeing traction. 

Linzy Bonham [00:15:32]: 

Yeah, yeah. Which is helpful to know in terms of setting your patience and expectations appropriately. Right. Because again, I think the instant gratification has permeated our culture. We’re so used to like, oh, here’s something on Amazon. Oh, it showed up the next morning before I even got out of bed. There has been this real distortion of the idea of kind of cause and effect and marketing. I mean, an analogy that I like to use when I think about marketing is like, you’re planting seeds, and seeds don’t come up right away 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:03]: 

But when you plant lots of seeds, it’s amazing how many of them do come up, you know, within like six months, a year. I have folks sometimes that are around listening to the podcast and on my email list for four years before it’s the right time for them to buy. Right. And every time that I’m putting something out to them that, like, resonates and helps them feel like, oh, yeah, this person really could help me when the time is right. I’m maintaining that connection. But if I was looking for instant results, I would be disappointed because that’s just not really how I think business works in the long term. So I love that emphasis that you have on thinking about five years, because I’ve certainly experienced that being in the business now for five years. I see so many returns on things that I did years and years ago. 

Linzy Bonham [00:16:45]: 

But at that time it seemed like nothing was happening. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:16:48]: 

Yeah. And there probably was not anything happening. Exactly. Like you said, it’s a seed, it’s all underground. But I also think for people who want to even this is for solo and group practices alike. We are in a competitive market. Right. So I think luck favors the bold. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:17:09]: 

So are you going to do the kind of same cop out stuff that everybody else is doing? Who’s afraid? And I get it. But the practices that I’ve worked with, who make their marketing and probably most of their business decisions based on fear, I don’t see many of them making it, frankly. And we’ve worked with lots of people, so it’s scary to. I think just working with a marketing agency can be very vulnerable in the sense that you’re just kind of putting your trust in someone, which is always scary. You’re putting an investment, but also in something that you don’t understand. 

Linzy Bonham [00:17:43]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:17:43]: 

And you’re just kind of like, okay, I’m just gonna hand this off. I get it’s terrifying. Right. And so I, you know, endless empathy for that. But if you’re making all of your business and marketing decisions out of fear, I think in this market it’s not going to look good for you. Just, just from my experience, what I. 

Linzy Bonham [00:18:00]: 

No, no. And I mean the thing that really matters is return on investment. Right. It’s like, do you actually get back more than you put in? How do you suggest that folks calculate return on investment when it comes to marketing? Knowing that there’s maybe like a bunch of different activities that we’re doing? How do you think about it? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:18:20]: 

Tracking. Tracking. Tracking, yeah. All about tracking. Probably most therapists can set up. It’s very cheap. There’s a tool called CallRail. It’s just like a little line of code on your site. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:18:31]: 

It’s really, you know, pretty cheap. The HIPAA compatible plan is a little bit more. But you know, I know that depends on states. And if your marketing itself needs to be more HIPAA compliant, we have a HIPAA compliant plan just to be safe with our clients. But it’s really, really advanced, essentially what’s called attribution tracking. And that’s. I got a lead. How am I attributing this essentially to what marketing channel? So it can track form submissions if you have kind of like a native form submission. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:19:01]: 

So if you have an embed, like a Jotform or maybe another HIPAA compliant one, CallRail can’t track those, but they can always track any calls. And if you have just like an embedded form, Squarespace, wix, whatever you use, you can see exactly how they found you. So whether it’s Google Ads or Google Organic or Psychology Today, or like, oh my gosh, that podcast I did two years ago, you know, that kind of thing. So then you can see, okay, I’m putting my money here. Did that, you know, I got a lead. Great. But more importantly, did that lead actually become a client? 

Linzy Bonham [00:19:33]: 

Yes. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:19:33]: 

Right. So it’s just a lot of it is just taking the mystery out of it. And there are amazing tools that allow us to do just that. So even if you want to try it out for a couple months, I sometimes say that to my clients if they don’t really want to spend money on the tool, I’m like, just do it for three to six months. Just so at least you can get a picture of what’s going on so that it can guard or guide your future marketing decisions. But that’s really what it comes down to because there are a lot of vanity metrics as well. You know, in, in marketing. Like for example, for a lot of our newer services, we don’t even offer blogging anymore. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:20:11]: 

And that’s. It’s been a staple, a standard in SEO for so many years. You do blogging, but we just couldn’t attribute enough direct results from it. So we’re like, all right, let’s just do the content that we know gets clients instead. So it’s that sort of thing. Like, you can get lots of leads from Google Ads. Are those leads actually turning into something? And if they are, and you’re spending, you know, a couple hundred dollars to sign a private pay client, it’s like, that sounds pretty good to me. You know, Google Ads. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:20:40]: 

So it really just depends. But knowledge is absolutely what. What is going to be the best thing for you? Because you can guess all you want, but there are tools that can help anyone. 

Linzy Bonham [00:20:52]: 

And even people’s self report is often not very good. Like, people will often not actually accurately remember where they found you. They’re like, oh yeah, I think I found you, like on the Internet. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:01]: 

But you’re like, right. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:02]: 

But was it the Google Ads you’re paying for? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:04]: 

But I clicked on Psychology Today and you’re like, well, which one last ad? 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:07]: 

Yeah, I know. So I’m hearing. Then if I understand correctly, like CallRail, what it tracks is if someone fills out your form, it will be able to tell you where that person who filled out your form came from. Do I understand that correctly as well? And phone calls. Okay, okay, how does it. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:22]: 

And you can do texts too as well. But then you need to get like a legal texting number and there’s a whole bunch of, you know. 

Linzy Bonham [00:21:30]: 

Okay, right. So is that if somebody like is on. I’m going to ask you some, some beginner questions. So when you say calls, is that because somebody’s on their phone looking at your website and then they click the call button from their phone? So it wouldn’t work. Like if I’m looking at a desktop. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:21:46]: 

It doesn’t psychically know call on desktops, at least mine. So I have a MacBook and I can click to call and it’ll open FaceTime and I can call someone. Got it. So it’s not going to work in every scenario, I don’t think. But it does also track. It originally started as call tracking. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:03]: 

Okay. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:22:04]: 

So a lot of times it’s used, you know, I’ve experienced in the legal marketing industry you’d get intakes, you know, record the intake so you can go back and assess the lead. It’s, it’s very, it’s pretty amazing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:22:15]: 

All the stuff do and what I’m hearing, you know, in terms of that return on investment piece is then you can know where somebody actually came from. So then you can look at how much are you spending on that particular marketing channel that they came from. And then I’m curious like when with your clients do you have a kind of guideline on how many months a client is worth? Like do you have your group practice owners look at like their average sessions per client? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:22:44]: 

We don’t always know the answers. So we kind of like we’re almost kind of helping them adjust how they think about this, this stuff. Because I think a lot of times business owners and definitely have seen this in therapists marketing is just kind of this like this checklist item. Yeah, it’s like I have to do this. And it’s like no, let’s, let’s really think about this and see how it’s benefiting you and how you’re thinking about your business in light of marketing because they’re, they’re, they’re like this, you know, they’re, they’re very, very connected. So I typically recommend your average hourly rate. A lot of times like a group practice owner’s own rate will pro would be significantly higher. So I would just like remove them because they’re not trying to fill their own caseloads anyways. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:23:24]: 

Yes, that’s true. I remove your rate. Take the average of your, your employees rates and then just calculate average sessions. I typically recommend just because for the most part the clients that I work with do more depth work. They’re usually working with their clients for about at least a year, let’s say. So I’ll say, okay, maybe four sessions were missed, sickness, vacation, whatever. So 11 months weekly sessions, times like 150 or something. So then, you know, your average client value could be 6,000, 8,000. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:23:56]: 

I have some clients where the average client, you know, value is 12,000 or something. And this is before like costs and all that. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:04]: 

Yes, yes, it’s just, but just you. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:24:05]: 

Have a sense of the value of someone that you sign. Generally you can just like track this in a little CRM and be like, ooh, I signed someone, that’s $8,000 headed my way this year. That’s so exciting. And I only spent a thousand dollars on Google Ads, you know, in the past few months or however it is. So yeah, that’s typically the, the formula there. It’s very simple. 

Linzy Bonham [00:24:26]: 

And that’s, yeah, that’s how I think about it too. And that’s something that I talk to my group practice owners about. So maybe your group practice owners just send them to me. I’ll help them understand their numbers and develop their financial literacy and confidence. Yeah, but like looking at those averages and in terms of return on investment, what do you personally see as a good return on investment when it comes to marketing spend. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:24:48]: 

Yeah. And it’s tough to do a percentage and actually should think about a good percentage. But I think something that at least like, I mean, because ideally, well, at least with the work that I do, we’re not just thinking about your return like in the slot machine sense. It’s like, what’s your return over years? So I would say double, triple, more like it should be. And the bigger the investment, the bigger that return needs to be. Like, those things need to be very, very separate. So it depends on like how long you’re investing for how much you’re investing. But yeah, big, big numbers, big returns is really, you know, what, what you should be going for. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:25:29]: 

But again, those little ad hoc kind of marketing investments that I was referring to before, those are just gonna be smaller returns because they’re just not as transformational. You know, it’s kind of like a little bit of a band aid approach, a little bit of a slot machine approach. Less of, I’m investing in this really long term thing that I know is going to continue to unfold for me for years to come. That’s, that’s gotta be a big, big fun number. 

Linzy Bonham [00:25:55]: 

Yes. By fun number, you mean for many therapists, nausea inducing, like a really large number. And I know for us, as we’ve run ads over the years, we want to see at least double, like at least a two times return on ad spend. Because also in that number is your team’s time and energy and bandwidth. Like, there’s all these costs that are in there, right? Like, it’s not like I actually put a dollar in a slot machine and I got two because my team members are working on that instead of something else. And yeah, so there’s, there’s other ways. So at least double is. Is worthwhile. 

Linzy Bonham [00:26:24]: 

But I’m hearing more is better, obviously, in terms of return for more. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:26:28]: 

And it’s the type of marketing. Some are just higher investment. Again, I think higher risk, higher reward, the bolder you are in a competitive environment, you will get the returns again if you’re working with someone that is trusted and has proven results and are very confident, you know, backing that stuff up. But yeah, it depends. But at least, at least double, right? Yeah, across the board. 

 Linzy Bonham [00:26:52]: 

So for folks who are looking to grow their group practices and they’re thinking about marketing, what forms of marketing do you find are best? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:26:59]: 

It’s interesting. I’m actually kind of working on this, this thing right now where if I were to, you know, I. Someone sits down two minutes, gives me the lowdown, here’s where they’re at in practice. What would I actually recommend for them? Cause I don’t always recommend SEO. I really don’t. Like, I don’t think it’s for everyone, especially not just with how rapidly things are changing. You need to be pretty adaptable. And I think a lot of therapists are just kind of like, I want to do my marketing and then I’ll have done it and then it’s. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:27:28]: 

And then everything’s fine forever. Did it. Yeah, I did it. Marketing check. All done. So I think if, if that’s kind of where you’re at with marketing, like, honestly, SEO is not a good, a good thing for you, right? So I think it depends. I think if you’re just starting out, solo practitioner, doing all of kind of like the basic small stuff, getting on all the directories that you can, again, you can track if you are getting a return on those. Now that everyone knows about CallRail track, if that’s working. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:27:59]: 

I just think, you know, standard networking and that can also be online. If you want to do more like Instagram stuff, being on the list serves the Facebook groups. That’s kind of like a little like base. So anyone who’s like, I’m starting my practice tomorrow or I started in the last three months, I’m like, okay, cover your bases. Solo practitioners, I do think Google Ads is a really good spot to be because you do get more of that money in money back. Is it more expensive per lead probably than something like SEO. Like we have a practice, they get like 150 leads a month from SEO or something. Right. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:28:32]: 

And they don’t spend anything on Google Ads. So it’s a lot cheaper to get ads or through SEO for them. But with solo practitioners, especially when you’re just starting out, I think Google Ads is a good approach because you can really scale the investment to where you are. So with SEO, for example, you kind of just have to go all in. You can’t like dip your toes in SEO. It’s like you either have to do it or it’s just not going to take. Like Google just won’t pick up on you if you’re not really doing enough and doing the right things. Google Ads, it’s like you’re pay, you’re basically like paying them to be your friend, you know, and they’re like, yeah, I’ll be your friend for 500amonth. 

Linzy Bonham [00:29:11]: 

Yeah, they’re like, she’s great. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:29:12]: 

Yeah, she did. She said, great, we’ll do that. Yeah. You know, SEO is like. Sorry, did you say something? You know, like you, you have to be a little bit more aggressive with SEO. So I think if you’re just starting out, solo practitioner, trying Google Ads is a great thing. I wouldn’t put like a ton of money behind it just to try it out again. Work with a company that knows what they’re doing, has worked with therapists. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:29:37]: 

That’s super, super important in Google Ads. And then I think when you’re ready to scale and you’re ready to grow, you’re ready for sustainable growth that’s gonna serve you for years to come. You’re ready to take on more of that, just the, the bolder kind of bigger moves. Then I think SEO is a really good thing. And especially if you’re in a really competitive market. Toronto, Louisiana, New York City, Vancouver, these are very competitive markets. So you just kind of have to be ready for more of that kind of thing. But again, how many practices can say, oh, I got 150 leads just from Google this month. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:13]: 

Yeah, it’s wild. Yeah, yeah. Like, I’m hearing that SEO is kind of the. I’m trying to think of the right analogy for it. Like, I kind of have a vague visual of it, but it’s like you’re really kind of like reorganizing the whole house. When you do SEO, you can’t just do like a little. It’s like you really have to go in. So I’m hearing that if you’re a practice that’s new, it’s not going to make sense for you to make that kind of huge investment. 

Linzy Bonham [00:30:34]: 

But if you’re a group that’s scaling and looking to be around, that’s a good long term investment that you can make because you’ll just keep showing up on those search engines. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:30:43]: 

If you’re in less competitive, I think you can get away with less. Even as a solo practitioner, you can just do less. But you know, if we have someone coming to us again in one of these hyper competitive markets, it’s like this is the minimum, you know, of what we have to be be doing just to make a dent. So I think it depends on where you’re located. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:02]: 

Yeah. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:31:02]: 

As well. I will say that’s an important contextual factor. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:06]: 

Sure. Of course. Like how, how many hundreds of therapists are within a couple miles and how. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:31:11]: 

Much are they spending and how much are they trying. Right. So and that’s how we get into like the competitive market. It’s not just about how competitive Google might be. How much are other therapists around you also doing this? And that’s really where the competition comes from. 

Linzy Bonham [00:31:26]: 

Yeah. And I find that in the meta ad space, which is where we’ve hung out, you also end up with that competition in the market because there’s just limited ad space. So it’s like when it comes to be like Black Friday now I’m competing with like Walmart and Amazon and it’s like we’re just going to stop our ads because like we can’t outspend massive multibillion dollar companies. But yeah, there’s kind of only so much billboard space on the Internet. Right. There’s only so many things can be at the top. So depending on how competitive it is, where you are, or if in the case of like meta ads, there’s only limited spaces, like you’re reaching people all over North America that is also going to determine what your spend is going to have to look like. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:05]: 

100%. 

Linzy Bonham [00:32:06]: 

Yeah. Kristie, this has been so informative. Thank you so much. For folks who are interested in learning more about you and the work that you folks do with therapists. Where can they find you? 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:16]: 

Yeah, they can head over to our website@therapyseo.com and actually, probably when this episode comes out, we will be under our new name, which is place digital. So placedigital.com that’ll take you to where you need to be, reach out. We’d be happy to, you know, take a look at what you have going on and make that recommendation. We’re very honest. We often refer to ourselves as the Bad News Bears because we might tell you what other marketing consultants wouldn’t. So we’ll, we’ll always recommend what we think is actually going to, to work for you. Then in some cases it might not be our services and we’re happy to connect you with other people that we think that can help you out. But yeah, I hope this was, this was helpful. 

Kristie Plantinga [00:32:58]: 

My Bad News Bears approach, you know, some of you gotta do it. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:03]: 

Well, we are grateful that you are taking that, falling on that sword for us. Thank you so much, Kristie, for joining me today. 

Linzy Bonham [00:33:17]: 

I really appreciate Kristie bringing her marketing expert expertise onto the podcast today. Marketing is not always our favorite thing to do as therapists, but is a non negotiable. And as she said, sometimes we might be riding the benefit of certain things that we have in place already, like our, our reputation or, or some piece of marketing that we did that had a big impact. We might be benefiting from it, but eventually, you know, everything that we do kind of runs out of steam. And so we need to be thinking continually about how we are putting ourselves out there in, in the world and getting found, you know, through SEO, through ads. There’s so many other marketing activities we can do. And I love her point about just saying zoomed out and thinking about where do I want to be in five years. Right? Marketing should not be a reactive thing. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:07]: 

It should not be the thing that we’re doing and we’re like, oh no. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:09]: 

We have no clients. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:11]: 

It should be, you know, to use the analogy that I mentioned, planting seeds continually and seeing what comes up. Right. But putting regular effort into putting ourselves out there, putting a regular investment into putting ourselves out there to keep our name top of mind for those people who really need to find us and. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:30]: 

Really need to work with us and. 

Linzy Bonham [00:34:32]: 

Especially for group practices, to keep your group practice top of mind for, for everybody, not just you, but your group practice so that you have that continual stream of folks coming in the door to, you know, keep your clinicians full month after month after month. And these things do take continual, sustained effort. So I so appreciate Kristie’s perspective on us taking perspective on our businesses and thinking big picture, not just what do we need to do now to make the next month a good month. But what are the marks marketing activities we need to do now to make the next few years good years? So thank you to Kristie for joining us today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show Notes notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. 

Linzy Bonham [00:35:32]: 

I look forward to supporting you.