00:00:00 – Alyssa Zajdel 

A lot of the mentors I’ve talked to, both in sports py and locally, they’re kind of in the old school money mindset. I’ve had people make comments of like, oh, wow, you’re lucky people are even paying you. Or I’ve had mentors say, like, oh, I just charge my regular rate. Or oh, I have like one mentor I was recently talking to said, oh, I charge just a flat rate, 175. No matter if it’s two hours or what, you know this is my hobby, right? 

00:00:30 – Linzy Bonham 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Alyssa Zadel. She is a graduate of the Money Skills for Therapist course. And today Alyssa and I have a coaching episode about pricing your offers when you are starting to expand. So, Alyssa is a sports psychologist. She has been getting asks from her community to speak and pricing has been a big challenge. So today we talk about different ways to think about pricing your offers. We talk about how to start to get a sense of what the market is willing to pay for what you do and what not to do in terms of how you price your offers. Alyssa has so much to offer the world and it’s very exciting that she’s been getting these asks for these talks. So today we talk about how do you actually price something that is not one on one therapy but is still in your therapeutic expertise? Here is my coaching episode with Alyssa Zadel. So, Alyssa, welcome to the podcast. 

00:02:14 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. I’m an avid listener of your podcast. I think I’ve listened to literally every single episode, minus the two that I’m behind on. 

00:02:23 – Linzy Bonham 

Right. Beautiful. I’m really, really, really happy to have you here today. So, Alyssa, tell me about what you want to dig in during our time together today. 

00:02:33 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. Yeah. So I am a sports psychologist based out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I started my practice almost three years ago. It’s a solo practice, although I want to move it into group practice land, which is a whole other thing. But I feel good about my like one on one work that I do. I went through your money skills for therapist course. I feel good about the rates that I charge and I even, I was really proud of myself. Even increased my rates this year, which was hard, but I did it and nothing bad happened. 

00:03:10 – Linzy Bonham 

There you go. 

00:03:11 – Alyssa Zajdel 

So that was really great. So the thing that though has been weighing on me is I do get reach outs from groups. So like teams or I had a university reach out to me to do a keynote speaking event for their athletes. And eventually as I grow my business, I want to actually focus on marketing this, but just not quite there yet. But what has been so hard is trying to figure out pricing for these opportunities as they come up. And I think there’s two sides of that. One is just like the practicality of when I went through your course and listening to other podcasts and stuff. It’s very clear of like, okay, you take your max capacity for the week of like what you want your caseload to be, you figure out your personal expenses, you do math to figure out a number. But with these like one off situations, it’s harder to know like what’s going to be worth my time. And yeah, because you don’t know when they’re going to come up, especially because I’m not actively marketing them. And also each one is slightly different too. So it’s not like the one hour therapy container that pricing is for the one on one time. So yeah, so I think it’s just like the practical aspect but then the mindset aspect. I’ve had some bad experiences already with just trying out different numbers and talking to mentors and different things and it’s just been, it’s a lot. So yeah, this has definitely been weighing on me for sure. 

00:04:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Certainly. Yeah. And tell me a little bit about the bad experiences because I want to get partly what I want to get is a sense of kind of the market, so to speak, for you know, what you’re offering. Tell me about what’s happened so far. 

00:04:59 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, so when I first moved back, started my practice, so I’m part of the figure skating community. That’s my personal sport. I’m still involved locally and we have synchro teams and they wanted to bring me in and going into that I didn’t want to do it for free because I especially being part of the club, I was like this could easily snowball into. They’re Going to expect me to do stuff for free forever. And I also didn’t want to do it for free because a lot like the age demographic they wanted me to come speak to is not the age demographic that I see one on one. So it’s not even like there’s a potential marketing or directly, I guess marketing. So I really did think hard about this and I thought, okay, if my regular rate is 200 an hour and they. I don’t know, maybe I do. I mean, I know myself, I’m going to do way more than an hour of prep. But I’ll charge them for an hour of prep. 

00:05:57 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, yes. 

00:05:58 – Alyssa Zajdel 

And then I’ll make it kind of a package and offer a 30 minute session with the coaches either before or after to get a sense, a better sense of like, okay, either, you know, what do you want this to be? Or what can you do from here on? And they ghosted me after I gave him a number of like 550 or something. I forget the specifics, but they ghosted me. And then I heard through the grapevine that they were very disappointed and upset that I charge. Like I charged them that. Cause I, maybe they were trying to get it for free. I’m not sure. So then I had another group reach out a dance studio. And when I was talking to them, they really caught me off guard. I should have been prepared for what do you charge? But I wasn’t. And so I ended up saying something like, oh, well, my regular rate is 200 an hour, but I typically charge more for groups because of X, Y and Z. And then I sent them an email after saying, okay, here’s what a quote would be. I just kind of came up with a rate randomly, I guess. And they were like, what? I thought you said it was $200. And so then I was like, okay, well yeah, that was my bad. I’ll do it for $200. But then they like last minute canceled too. So that was a whole thing. And then one other one was I was invited to do public speaking, like at this university for 300 student athletes. They asked me what’s my rate for public speaking? I said 350. Again, not quite sure exactly where that number came from, but I was like, the 500, that was too high, the whatever. So. And then they gave me a weird look and they were like, well, okay, but we’ll do you better because you’re probably gonna have some prep and stuff. So they’re like, we’ll pay you a thousand. So I was like, oh my God. Then I’m like. And so it’s just been so hard. And I. I’ve talked to mentors, and I think a lot of the mentors I’ve talked to, both in sports, psych and locally, they’re kind of in the old school money mindset. I’ve had people make comments of like, oh, wow, you’re lucky people are even paying you. Or I’ve had mentors say, like, oh, I just charge my regular rate. Or, oh, I have like, one mentor I was recently talking to said, oh, I charge just a flat rate, 175, no matter if it’s two hours or what. You know, this is my hobby. And I’m like, okay. But like. And I’m transitioning to being the sole provider in my family, too. So I’m also just not in a place to just be giving out these services for free. I mean, eventually, as I grow my business and, you know, that could be part of the plan because I do want to serve a lot of people or like, you know, people who really need these services. But at least for now, I feel like I need to charge something that people will pay because that’s the problem I’m having. Like, people aren’t. And maybe it’s just a fact of they’re reaching out to me rather than me actually marketing and finding the people who I’m trying, like, who could pay this money. But yeah, so that’s kind of. That’s. That’s all of it. 

00:09:10 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Okay. Okay, that’s. That is great context because the first thing that sticks out to me quite a bit is there is a world of difference between these kind of, like, hobby clubs, you know, who are approaching you, and a university. Right. And so part of this is thinking about the customer, so to speak, like, who is the customer? And you would also want to think about who’s the customer you want to speak to. Right. Like, are you passionate about speaking to small clubs? And I’m, you know, I’m thinking about my own involvement. I’ve just done a Learn to row program. Right. So involved in a rowing club. And it’s like, small and there’s not a lot of money. And I’m sure, like, a lot of the members there do things for very little money or for free. Right. Like, it’s like money is not one of the currencies that’s really exchanged there. Right. Like, probably like goodwill and support, and that’s more of like the currency that’s circulating amongst that group of people. But there isn’t a lot of Money circulating universities are a different story. Right. Universities have money. At least for now they do, politics aside. Right. And so something that I’m curious about is, as you think about speaking, who do you want to speak to? Like, if you think about a speaking engagement, that would be exciting for you and that you would be really proud of, and that would really get, like, you know, your wheels turning in terms of really wanting to do a great job. Who would that audience be? 

00:10:28 – Alyssa Zajdel 

That is a good question. I mean, what first comes to mind is the, like, the big talk I did for the university. So, like, my training has been in college counseling centers, and then I was in collegiate athletics before starting my private practice. So I love working with college students. And I was actually surprised with myself that speaking to 300 people, like, that was actually really fun. And so I’d love to do more stuff like that in the future. But yeah, I guess that. And probably more. More of the elite athletes, at least when it’s me, I know I want to, like, bring on other people. I have a student coming on and like, maybe her lane could be more hobby clubs, because then she’s getting hours and I can kind of help her coach and she’ll get our name out there. But I also had. And this one went over a little bit better, I think. Although I haven’t heard back from them. A local. So I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. There is the Pettit National Ice center, which is US speed skating training site. And so some of their really elite speed skaters, that group reached out to me and I did try a different strategy with them. I did say, like, okay, I’m not gonna. Like, I don’t necessarily give a quote on the intro call because I’m trying to figure out exactly what the needs are and what’s gonna be most helpful. But then I did give a quote of 350 again. Cause who knows why? And they were like, okay, that might be doable. We’ll get back to you. So I guess those speed skaters, though, would be also like the group of people that I would like to speak to. 

00:12:05 – Linzy Bonham 

And I’m curious about the kind of economics of, you know, those kinds of elite athletes. Is there money in those training centers? Like, are they funded? Yeah. What’s the financial situation there? 

00:12:17 – Alyssa Zajdel 

That’s confusing. I’m not sure. 

00:12:19 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:12:20 – Alyssa Zajdel 

I mean, I think like, in figure skating or speed skating, they’re expensive sports, so families, the people who are attracted to them are people who tend to have more money. But then it’s interesting from the organizational level, like, when I Was talking to this, the speed skating person, head manager. I don’t know what they are, but they are kind of like, yeah, we don’t really have a budget. We’re looking into getting funding. The families haven’t said anything about too much expenses, but I don’t know because that’s the other part too is like when you’re going into teams like that, it’s like, okay, will the organization be paying, will the cost be like the, the members pay $20 or however much per thing? So it’s confusing too because there’s different payment structures as well. 

00:13:07 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. You’re not walking into a set model of how things are done. It’s like every group is going to do things a little bit differently. Okay. 

00:13:15 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. 

00:13:15 – Linzy Bonham 

So I’m hearing there is passion around college students, like the institutions. Do you also have passion around the elite athletes? 

00:13:24 – Alyssa Zajdel 

I think so, yeah. 

00:13:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:13:26 – Alyssa Zajdel 

I think so. I think so. I mean, like in some ways it’s. There just feels like there’s more pressure. 

00:13:33 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. 

00:13:33 – Alyssa Zajdel 

And that’s, I think part of the mental side of this too, or the mindset side is, you know, in one on one therapy, it’s like, okay, yes, I, and Now I charge $205 with my rate increase I was talking about earlier, but I can see like, okay, yes, I am making an impact. People’s lives are getting better. And I think what’s been harder for me with these kind of one off things is it feels like a lot of pressure to. And I know this is not what I should be doing, but it feels like I need to put a lot of pressure to prove myself or to change lives in like a 45 minute talk. But then you leave and then you don’t really know exactly the impact. So I think that’s part of like the mindset side too. Of like, Is this worth 350 or is this worth a thousand? I’m not sure. They don’t think so. It seems so that leads me to feel less confident saying what my rate is and then that’s just not good. When we’re not confident saying what our rate is. 

00:14:30 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Yeah, certainly. Yeah, yeah. Then we’re undermining ourself before they’ve even had a chance to have their own emotional reaction. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I’m hearing there is a lot of pressure that you’re putting on yourself. Something that I would think about is like, what are they looking for these different groups when they’re looking for somebody to come in, you know, like, what are their goals? Why are they paying for these talks or why are they seeking out these talks? I suspect there might be different goals or maybe not, I’m not exactly sure. But as you’re thinking about this, it is a different audience than the one to one people. Your customers are actually the organization and making sure you’re helping the organization hit their goals. That’s something that I would be curious about. Even just as you’re thinking about building out this part of your business is what are their goals when a university is bringing you in? What are they trying to accomplish? Are they trying to entertain their students? Do they have a certain problem they’re actually trying to solve? Are they just giving them a variety of perspectives and viewpoints? What is the role that you are playing? Because that I think could also help you to focus on what are you actually putting into that talk to make sure that you are helping them achieve those goals? Because the customers are not actually the listeners of the talk. The people you have to actually show that you have delivered value are whoever is organizing that, like the institution. Right? 

00:15:53 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. 

00:15:53 – Linzy Bonham 

So I’m thinking about that piece. Another curiosity that I’m having here as we’re thinking about pricing is how this fits into your business. Is this an area that you want to move towards, like being a public speaker, having big stages, being a thought leader in your space? Is that part of the goal? Is this marketing for your practice as well or just marketing for your practice? How does this fit into your bigger plans for your business? 

00:16:18 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, that’s a great question. Part of me wants me like, oh yeah, let’s do more public speaking, because I liked that. But also then a lot of imposter syndrome comes up, especially in the sports psychology niche. It sometimes feels like there’s an in group and out group. And my path was a little less traditional and I don’t know. So it just brings up like, who am I to be a thought leader in sports psychology when there’s so many other people that know way more than I do. But I think, I guess where the group services fit in is just another revenue stream, another way to get our services out there. And it really does. It can impact a lot more people than the one on one. And I think too I just one of my passions or part of my vision, I guess for the work that I do is just to normalize mental health and normalize especially emotions. Because the sport culture is very based on like Eurocentric, patriarchal, capitalistic values and this like you have to suck it up or just get over it. And so trying to help athletes and just kind of change the culture in general. Make a little dent, I guess in the culture of athletics in general that of course you’re going to have feelings and that’s okay and you can get help. You don’t have to do things on your own. And so I see the benefit of doing like either the large public speaking or the group services is working towards that mission in a larger way. And also coaches are sitting in on those talks too. Right. Because a lot of times the one on one work is like, well, you have a durable coach, but I’m not, the coach is not my client. And so how do we, you know, work through this? And I think the organizers are kind of on that page. Although I think in some ways kind of going to what you were saying of like, what are the organizers goals? I think sometimes because mental health is a scary topic in athletics for the reasons I was saying earlier, even when I was working in college, there’s kind of this like, okay, come in, talk to people and just fix it. We’re having this issue, athletes are having mental health issues, come in and fix it. And so a lot of it is doing education about like, okay, one 30 minute talk with an athlete is not going to fix their mental health issues or the performance anxiety or their lack of dedication. So I think that adds to the pressure. Cause that’s part of their, like, they are just not. They don’t know enough to know what the scope of what me coming in and doing a talk is. 

00:18:58 – Linzy Bonham 

Right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And this is where you were mentioning earlier, right? Now these have all been folks reaching out to you. They’re like, you do sports psychology. Our people have feelings, we feel weird about it. We don’t know what to do. Can you come in? And then you’re also being contacted within that by a whole range of people with a whole range of ideas of what is affordable, what is not. Totally different budgets. So you’re getting this whole kind of smorgasbord of people reaching out to you, which makes sense that it’s difficult to figure out what to sell to them and what they’re willing to pay. Because there’s almost nothing unifying between these groups except for the fact, like sports, that’s the only unifying thing here. 

00:19:33 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yep. 

00:19:33 – Linzy Bonham 

Right. So I’m thinking if you were going to sell something where you actually market it, it’s on your website. These are the talks that I offer. There’s this kind of talk, you know, or this kind of series I can do. What would you want to offer that Would really be exciting for you, worth your time and energy. Like you can charge enough that it’s not going to be detracting from what you can make seeing folks one on one because you have a great fee. So you’re at a point where you could just see folks one on one and you could see a few more folks and make some more money. But this is also calling your attention. So we want to make sure it doesn’t undermine what you can earn just doing the work you’re already great at with one on ones. What would you want to talk to folks about? If you could actually set the topic, the tone, or even just the container of what kind of talks do you want to do? Are they one hour talks? Is it an afternoon? Is it a series? 

00:20:24 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Probably what I’ve mostly done is one hour talks. So that feels like the comfortable option. And that’s the thing that I guess has I’ve been thinking about with the pricing too is I already have a bunch of workshops prepared and I thought about, okay, should I put something on my website saying like these are the options and here’s the rate for if you just want a one hour preset talk, obviously slightly tweaking it in tone or I don’t know, whatever to whatever group and then maybe having an option of like. But if you want something custom, like here’s a different pricing. Because I do like the idea of doing something a little more custom, ongoing, like really actually making change. Because I think that’s where the limit of. Not that it’s not helpful to do a one off workshop, but I think sometimes that can come off. Like organizations can be like, oh, we’re just checking the box or you know, is it really making lasting changes? But I find going in, and especially I have all these talks I do enjoy. Part of why I like sports psychology is I love teaching. So this is like a fun way of teaching people. Probably maybe a mix, I guess of just like one off things, but then also maybe having like one or two organizations that I’m more involved with for longer term. 

00:21:52 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Because I’m thinking you need to sell something right now. You have people asking you for random things. They have no idea what kind of price range they’re even talking about. They probably don’t even know really what they’re asking you for. Because as you say, they’re asking you. They’re hoping you’re going to solve this huge issue in 30 minutes, which isn’t even possible. Right. And so what I’m starting to visualize as we’re talking is like a page on your website where you’re like, you know, like public speaking or like group events where you can actually lay out. These are the topics that I cover. This is the pricing for a one hour workshop. Contact me for custom ongoing support available. But also you have to sell them. Like, what do they get? You know, if I bring you in to my university to work with my athletes, what are the results I’m going to get? Right. Like, how is that going to help me as say the coordinator who’s trying to serve our athletes? How is that going to help us accomplish something? What can we accomplish by bringing you in? Right. Because otherwise you’re almost having this disconnect of like they don’t really know what they’re looking for. You don’t really know what they’re looking for. You have no idea what kind of budget that you’re working with. Do they have $5 in their bank account or 5 million? Who knows? Right. And so it makes a lot of sense that you’re having these awkward misses because there’s just no clarity between the two of you of what even a starting point would be. 

00:23:13 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, yeah, totally. 

00:23:15 – Linzy Bonham 

What do you think about that idea of actually laying out some offers that you could then use as a starting point to have conversations with people? 

00:23:22 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, I really like that idea because I think that’s. I’ve even just seen that in my solo. I’ve got my sales page, I have my numbers in many different places. 

00:23:35 – Linzy Bonham 

Totally. 

00:23:35 – Alyssa Zajdel 

And so when people are contacting me, they already have a sense of. Yeah. What they’re getting, what the price is. I don’t have to guess if it fits for them. They’ve already self selected. So I think that would be great. Like, because then if I did have random reach outs, I could direct them to a page, they could see what the options are and then that would prompt them to think a little bit more about what they want. Because you’re right. Like it is this weird conversation where they don’t know what they want. I’m trying to figure out what they want and it’s just not a helpful conversation. 

00:24:08 – Linzy Bonham 

No, no, it’s not. And you might not at all be a fit in terms of what you actually would be willing to work for and what they’re able to pay. You just might not be a fit from the very beginning and no amount of communication will change that. Right. If they, if they think they’re going to pay you $75, the conversation’s just not even worth it because your time is Worth so much more than that. Yeah. And then as we’re thinking about pricing, something that I’m thinking about is having clarity too on say group size. You know, like when you give a Talk, if there’s 300 people in the room, it makes a lot of sense that they would pay you $1,000. It’s like $30 a person. Whereas if it’s a smaller group, do you want to think about having some pricing tiers for different group sizes as a way of also laying out? Because you don’t want to say that you charge $500 for talk and show up to a room with a thousand people in it. You would be disappointed. 

00:24:55 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. 

00:24:56 – Linzy Bonham 

So getting really clear for you on even just some starting points on how you determine pricing as you’re talking to a group, where are you starting? What are the modifiers? If they want to make it a two hour talk instead of one, you probably wouldn’t charge double for that. Or maybe you would, but having that starting point because right now it’s kind of like you’re starting an empty space. So as you think about that talk you did for the university, you got paid $1,000 to talk for an hour. How did that feel in terms of the value of your time if you think about the earnings for that? 

00:25:27 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, probably not great. Okay. 

00:25:30 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, tell me about that. 

00:25:31 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Just in the sense that I spent and this is also my own perfectionism and you know, as we were saying, the pressure I put on myself and all that kind of stuff, I spent a lot of time putting that talk together. I do think it, it was a really good talk, it was very well received. So I spent a lot of time. But it’s like, but now I have this talk and I have already repurposed it in slight for slightly other things. So that also too is I guess confusing with the pricing of. It’s the first time I do a presentation, there’s going to be more prep. But if I could reuse that, do I really need to get paid for all that initial prep? Especially if I go above and beyond and spend too much time on it? 

00:26:18 – Linzy Bonham 

Well, and that’s where you can get more into value based pricing rather than commodity based pricing. Right. So commodity based pricing is what we’re used to thinking about as therapists because it’s like a clear exchange. It’s like I give you one hour of my time, you give me $205, I give you two hours of my time, you give me double that. Right. When you’re getting into speaking for groups and that kind of scaled offer, value based pricing is a far more helpful model to work with, which is just what is it worth for them? What are they willing to pay for the result they’re going to get? Right. And so it’s moving out of your time because it’s true, you could go super perfectionist and you could spend 20 hours getting ready for a one hour talk and it would be pretty much impossible for somebody to pay you enough money to make that worth it. Right. But in terms of their side of the equation, again, they’re thinking they’re gonna have certain goals in mind. Right. If you help them fulfill that goal, if you help their athletes feel far more inspired, if you open up more conversations between athletes and coaches or between the athletes themselves, if you start to like shift their culture so it becomes more supportive, athletes are able to like get the help they need. What is that worth to them? And there’s always going to be this like, what is it intangibly worth and what is their actual budget? We know with clients, if we think about clients that we’ve worked with, where we’ve profoundly changed their lives, that might be worth $100,000 to them. It doesn’t mean they have $100,000 to pay us. Right? So there’s always this middle between the value to them and then their budgetary realities. Because money is tangible, there’s a limit on it at some point. But yeah, thinking about the value, especially to a large organization like that, if you think in the scheme of their budget, of the training dollars that they have available to bring in people like this, would it be worth $2,000 for them to have 300 other athletes have a conversation that starts to really shift their culture, Right? Or if you did some ongoing work, if you did a series of talks over the course of three months, maybe that’s worth $8,000 or $10,000 to them because of the tangible results in their athletes performance, which is ultimately what their, their goal is, I think. Right. Is to have the best performing athletes that they can. How does that sit with you? The idea of basing it on value rather than your time? 

00:28:25 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, I think that is a much better way to think of it. But then I’m also like, but then how do I know what the value is? 

00:28:33 – Linzy Bonham 

Right? 

00:28:33 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Because even I guess another reason why the thousand dollars didn’t sit well is because, okay, if my kind of quote was 350 and they were like, we’ll do a thousand, I’m like, okay, well they probably have way more in their budget and they’re like, ooh, we’re getting a bargain. And then I guess it doesn’t feel good in the sense of. Because I did, like, a really job, and, like, they loved it and were really impressed, and I. Yeah, so that’s where it’s like, oh, okay. So I gave more value than they paid because I undervalued myself. You know what I mean? And that didn’t feel good. 

00:29:06 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Like, they protected you from just how much you were undervaluing yourself by being like, no, no, no, we’re not gonna pay you 350. Let us pay you a thousand. And I have personally done that with people before where I’m like, no, no, no, no. I’m not going to pay you that little. Like, it’s like, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night paying you that little. But if they paid you a thousand, they probably had 1500 or 2000 in their budget. Right. So, yeah, I’m hearing there is feelings associated with that because it’s just like, damn it, that was a missed opportunity. 

00:29:32 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. 

00:29:33 – Linzy Bonham 

Going forward, you could look at pricing at 1500 or 2000 for a large group like that part of it. Alyssa is starting to get some intel from the buyer’s perspective of what do they pay for talks like that. You know, if they have, like, an elite speaker come in, what do they pay them? What is their training budget that they have? And I do wonder if you have maybe some connections at the university or folks that, you know who could find that information for you, because that’s getting into the buyer side of things. Of, like, how are they thinking about these decisions? Which, like, there’s somebody who will tell you that information of, like, what they pay on average. 

00:30:10 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, yeah. I’m trying to think through. No one comes to mind. I can think more about it. I mean, a lot of the universities where I have more connections are in other states, so, like, South Florida. But the pricing there is going to be a lot different because it’s more expensive down there than Milwaukee, Wisconsin. But I’m even just thinking about. There’s always, like, on the listservs, like, oh, has anyone brought this person in to speak? Do you have experience with this person? I can always go on those people’s websites and see what they charge 100%. I’m sure it’s like $10,000 or something. 

00:30:43 – Linzy Bonham 

But this is where market research comes in. Right. Like, you’re moving into a new era in your business. So taking three or four hours to do a really good scan of, like, okay, those elite Speakers, what are they charging? When this university is asking for a speaker, is there a price tag they’re offering? Like when you talk to other colleagues of yours who are speaking in Florida, what are people charging in Florida to give you like a floor and a ceiling? Right, like, okay, nobody’s paying less than 500, so I’m never going to ask less than, than 500. People are paying up to 20,000. Probably not there yet, but yeah, getting that sense, because pricing is always a conversation between the person who is offering the service and the value and the buyer. So there’s always going to be this little bit of a back and forth of how these things are valued. It’s not a set in stone thing, but it’s good to get a sense of what the ballpark is so you can start that conversation on the right foot, not offer super low, but not also offer so high that you’ve just ended the conversation. There’s a negotiation there with large talks like this. And so, yeah, I think some market research coupled with really getting clear on like, yeah, what are the topics that you can offer? Selling it so that when somebody comes. How does that sit with you? That idea of getting much more clarity on your side of what you’re willing to do and for how much?

00:31:58 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, I think that is really good because the most recent talk I had, like this was with that speed skating group and that was a week or two ago. And I did notice I was selling it more and saying like, oh, yes, this is so helpful for athletes to acknowledge their performance anxiety and talk about things that will help. And so I think be more purposeful in doing that. I mean, part of it too is, yeah, going in with more confidence rather than just trying to guess what will you pay me exactly. Like, what do you think I’m worth? Yes, I think that is really helpful.

00:32:31 – Linzy Bonham 

And I’m curious if we go back to that university talk, because I feel like that was like your biggest win so far. 

00:32:36 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. Yeah. 

00:32:37 – Linzy Bonham 

What would have been a number that you would have been paid that you’d be like, yeah, that felt really good. That felt like I really was compensated for the value that I gave that group. 

00:32:45 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, I think 1500. Yeah, feels good. 

00:32:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. Okay. So I think that’s your new number that you start to work with. You’re gonna, you know, do your scan as well and see, make sure that’s in a reasonable ballpark. I think it is based on that first experience. But when you give a talk to a large group of, you know, more than 200 people, it’s $1,500 is your starting point. Yeah. Okay, so what are you noticing? Coming towards the end of our conversation? 

00:33:09 – Alyssa Zajdel 

I feel a lot calmer. And this gives me, like. Well, just. Yeah, it gives me better insight, gives me action items. And I already did have a potential action item of, like, I should probably make a sales page about this. But then I was just getting so stuck on. But, like, what number do I even put? You know? But I think from this, it kind of solidifies. We didn’t directly talk about this. Well, you kind of did, but this idea of, like, okay, just set a number and see what happens and increase or decrease as needed as I learn more. And. Yeah. And I think really thinking about, what are the benefits? Selling it, doing that market research. Like, yeah, this has been. I just feel in my body so much calmer, which is so, so nice. 

00:33:53 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And that conversation piece, like, the market is also shifting. Right. Like. And I’m talking in, like, way too economic terms. Sorry to everybody listening and to you, but, you know, we know politically feel things are feeling uncertain. I’m seeing that impact in our business. I’m hearing that from the folks that we serve is like, you know, it’s less of a boom, prosperity time right now. But when you put out your pricing, you start a conversation, and if you put out fifteen hundred dollars and somebody contacts you and is like, alyssa, we absolutely love you. We want you to come, but our budget has just been cut. Would you do it for 1200? Now you have feedback that you’re in the ballpark, but, you know, and then you can decide if that’s worth it for you. And it’s the same with us when we. Every time I sell, I get the opportunity to get feedback on the price I’ve set and where my people are at right now, and then that gets you a sense of what your people are thinking, and then you can make decisions strategically about how to serve them in this moment. 

00:34:42 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah, totally. That’s really helpful. 

00:34:45 – Linzy Bonham 

Alyssa, thank you so much for coming on today. I’m so excited for you and this work that you’re doing. I just see so much opportunity here, not just to grow yourself as a thought leader and make an impact, but also for that group practice you want to build one day.

00:34:58 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. 

00:34:58 – Linzy Bonham 

This will also be a great way for folks to know about you. So I’m really, really excited that you’re doing this work. 

00:35:03 – Alyssa Zajdel 

Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much. This has been just so helpful. 

00:35:06 – Linzy Bonham 

You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I so appreciate Alyssa coming on the podcast. Today. And this piece that we talked about, where you think about what you actually want to offer, you know, what is the value of that, so that you’re selling something rather than being asked for something is going to make a big difference for Alyssa. Right? And as I mentioned, it is a conversation. Pricing is a conversation. So it’s only when we put out our pricing that we can get feedback on how close that is to what our ideal target audience is looking and able to pay. So a lot of building expanded offers like Alyssa is doing is just putting it out there and seeing how people respond and starting to sell what you sell and think about what is the value to that person that you’re serving and seeing how they react to certain prices. Getting a sense of like, what is their budget? If you’re looking at Alyssa is like at institutions, what do institutions have? What is normal for them to pay for? A talk like this, getting a sense of all of those things is going to help Alyssa shift from just kind of shooting in the dark. Does she charge $50? Does she charge 50,000? To having a range to work with? So I’m very excited for her for those next steps she’s going to take to get that clarity in being able to set that pricing around her speaking engagements. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Lindsey Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go for money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my free on demand masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

 00:00:00 – Sara Walls 

But the thing with dishes and also the thing with money is that there’s going to be more dishes tomorrow or this afternoon. Yeah. So it’s not necessarily something that we can always kind of check off. It’s this thing that’s going to kind of keep coming. And so we have to figure out how to maybe have an ongoing relationship with it. Otherwise we get into that cycle right, where it piles up and it becomes this giant, overwhelming thing that feels terrible and we avoid it. And then we slog through it and it feels gross and horrible and we never want to do this again. 

00:00:39 – Linzy Bonham 

Exactly. Yes. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. Hi, I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free On Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Sara Walls. Sara Walls is a therapist and bookkeeper for therapists. She’s also a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists. So I had the pleasure of working with her a couple years ago, and since our work together, she has started doing this bookkeeping work for therapists, which is so exciting. So it’s so exciting to be able to have her on the podcast today and for me to hear more about what she’s built and the continued work that she’s done growing her financial skills since I last got to work with her. Today, Sara and I talk about her own journey of going from a therapist who was avoidant of money and overwhelmed and even ended up having to shut down her first version of her private practice because the money wasn’t working. Going from that to now. Being a bookkeeper for therapists, we talk about gatekeeping in the bookkeeping world and dig a little bit more into some of the dynamics in bookkeeping that can sometimes lead folks to maybe be a little bit defensive. We talk a little bit about experiencing some defensiveness and some gatekeeping from the financial world, but specifically talking about bookkeepers and some of the parallels between bookkeepers and how their work is valued and compensated and therapists and counselors and how our Work is also not always valued or well compensated. A disclaimer on this. We are talking about kind of like the, you know, a little bit of the. Maybe the dirt, the grist in the bookkeeping world. So if you’ve had an experience with a bookkeeper where bookkeepers have ever been defensive or kind of gatekeeping, not letting you really understand your numbers, we dig a little bit into some of the context that might inform those experiences. But also, of course, huge disclaimer. Many bookkeepers are not defensive and are lovely and willing to answer your questions. And that’s something for you to look for as you’re looking for financial professionals in general is people who are able to answer your questions clearly, be with you in your numbers, give you the communication that you need. So there are many great bookkeepers and accountants out there like that, Sara being one of them. But we dig into some of the context around bookkeeping and why sometimes bookkeepers, you know, it might be hard to be a bookkeeper sometimes. We also talk about what are some of the financial habits that therapists and health practitioners in private practice can develop and specifically how to make yourself work on your money if you have ADHD or are neurodivergent. So Sara herself shares a little bit about her experience and her learning from other people in the ADHD space and how that applies to money. Lots of great things that we covered today. Here is my conversation with Sara Wall. So, Sara, welcome to the podcast. 

00:04:18 – Sara Walls 

Thank you. I’m excited to be here. 

00:04:20 – Linzy Bonham 

I am very excited to have you here. I think that this is maybe the first time, maybe the first time on the podcast or in general that we’ve had, like, someone who I’ve got to see at the beginning of the journey and then has come back and been like, oh, hey, I built a financial business, which is like, so cool. So for folks listening, can you tell them just a little bit about yourself and what you do? 

00:04:44 – Sara Walls 

Yeah. Yeah. So my name is Sara Walls. I am a clinical social worker in Houston, Texas. I have a solo practice and I’m a grad of money skills for therapists. And about a year ago, well, given the timing of when this will come out. A year and a half ago, Sure. I started a bookkeeping business to support other therapists, other small business owners with getting their money in order and feeling better. 

00:05:16 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:05:16 – Sara Walls 

About their money. 

00:05:17 – Linzy Bonham 

And you’re currently both ending. Do I understand that you have clinical clients and you also have bookkeeping clients who are other therapists? 

00:05:24 – Sara Walls 

Yes. 

00:05:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. Okay. So you have, like, walked the journey and been in the same position as so many other therapists. Like, trying to figure out money, making mistakes, feeling overwhelmed. Can you share a little bit about that journey and, like, what finally shifted things for you with money? 

00:05:43 – Sara Walls 

Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of have like a part A and part B of my journey. Really. The first part was right after I got my provisional license. I was working for a group practice as a 1099 contractor and so set up my own LLC to run everything through that and thought I was doing okay. I kind of had a system to track my income and my expenses and those kinds of. Of things. It would pile up, I would avoid it here and there, but I’d kind of eventually catch up. But it became clear the more I got into it that what I didn’t know was how much I could actually afford to pay myself, when I could pay myself, how consistently I could pay myself, exactly how much I should be saving for taxes. And I also really fell into the, like, it’s a write off trap. Right. Like, I thought I was doing all of these good things by taking these trainings, and I even went on, like, conference trip across the country. I was like, I can write all this off. This is great. And while that was true and I did pay less in taxes, I also didn’t have money to, like, pay my bills and all of those things. 

00:07:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes, yes. 

00:07:06 – Sara Walls 

So, yeah, it eventually got to the point where I just decided I needed to go get a W2 paycheck agency job and just kind of, just kind of call it so that I could have some predictability on the personal side. 

00:07:23 – Linzy Bonham 

And I think a lot of therapists go through that journey. Like, I was recently at the aca, the American Counseling association with Diane, who coaches with us, and we were chatting with folks coming through the booth, and sometimes we’d be like, do you have a private practice? They’re like, I used to. Used to have a private practice. So, yeah, I think there is a segment of therapists who go into private practice and they’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then like, back. Back out into. Into the W2 or the employee world again. 

00:07:50 – Sara Walls 

Yeah. Because it’s so much. 

00:07:52 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:07:52 – Sara Walls 

There’s so much to learn. And we don’t really have. We don’t get a lot of that education, as you know, and as I’m sure has been talked about a lot on this podcast. But also it’s hard to know where to go sometimes, too. 

00:08:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Okay, so you got back into W2 land. 

00:08:08 – Sara Walls 

Yes. And then, long story short, a few years later, started to get an inkling to kind of give it a try again. And I can’t remember exactly how or why or when I ran across it, but I ran across your work and I ran across the Profit first book by Mike Michalowicz. And that was a game changer for me because it gave me a starting place, it gave me a structure on like, hey, maybe like about this much is how you should focus on paying yourself. About this much is what’s reasonable to spend on expenses. And so just having that kind of not like rigidity but just kind of a guideline, a place to start was really, really helpful for me and definitely shifted the success of the second go round. 

00:09:00 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Yeah. Having a framework. Because I think too, I think about how you were tracking. There’s certain things that are figureoutable in terms of the tracking is the details. So it’s like, okay, we can capture the details. I made this much and I spent this much. But this is how I remember feeling too. When I started in private practice, I was like, and then what is the grand picture? What is the bigger picture? And I felt that way too when I came across Profit first, which was actually right around the time I was starting this business is when I also came across profit first. I did a training with Tiffany McLean and Allison Perior in San Francisco. That was one of my, it’s a write off things. That was actually an excellent, excellent investment working with them, being like, my private practice is full. I can’t do more clinical work than I’m doing. I kind of want to help therapists with money. Ended up reaching out. Tiffany McLean ended up in their program and at their retreat they had like a financial person to like sit with. And a lot of people sat with the financial person and they were like, oh no, I have to do everything. But I was like, little Achiever went and sat with like the financial coach who’s like so lovely. And she went through her checklist and I was like, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. My little, like a student. It’s a certain vibe. It’s not a great vibe. But then at the end she was like, okay, then you want to check out Profit First. She’s like, if you got all this stuff sorted out, you’re really going to want to read Profit First. And that’s when the book was quite new. Like it had only been around for maybe a year or two. And yeah, for me, when I, when I discovered Profit first, it also was like, okay, here’s the thing that I’ve been looking for which is that that broader logic to how money can and should move. And as you say, like, it’s a starting point. Right. It’s not. It’s not rigid. It doesn’t have to be rigid. Some people, I think, misunderstand that about profit first, but it gives you boundaries and guidance. 

00:10:51 – Sara Walls 

Yes. 

00:10:52 – Linzy Bonham 

Which is nice. We need that. 

00:10:53 – Sara Walls 

It is nice. Yes, it is nice.

00:10:55 – Linzy Bonham 

So the second go around, you were more successful. I’m hearing, like, my work, profit first. And I’m curious, like, where did you end up in that work that you ended up actually moving towards your own bookkeeping business? Because this is something that’s evolved, like since you and I worked together. So there’s a whole part of the story that I don’t know at all. 

00:11:13 – Sara Walls 

I’ll be honest. I think it’s always kind of been something in the back of my mind because even that first go round, I’ve always been kind of curious about this stuff and interested in this stuff. I’ve used YNAB, the you need a budget software for over 10 years and follow personal finance stuff on Instagram. So friends and colleagues have always kind of. I get questions. I get questions and I’ve enjoyed answering them and talking to them about it, right? 

00:11:42 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:11:43 – Sara Walls 

But I think the turning point for me or the thing that really kind of kicked me in the butt, I guess, to really pursue this was in a networking community that I’m a part of. I got the opportunity to run a workshop. Basically. We had had some CPAs come talk, one of which Julie Harris, the Prophet first for therapist author. And my task was to kind of say, like, hey, we got all this great information from these CPAs. Now let’s maybe figure out what we can actually do with that or how we can actually put that into practice in our businesses. So I put together a little walkthrough of some profit first stuff and just had so much fun. My little, you know, socially anxious introvert self was not excited about, like giving a workshop about money stuff and talking to all these people, and I had a blast. 

00:12:40 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:12:40 – Sara Walls 

So, yeah, decided like, maybe I need to look into this more and figure things out. So I took some bookkeeping classes, some accounting classes, got some certifications, and really loved debits and credits, which I feel like makes me really weird. 

00:13:02 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, you’re a unique breed of therapist, you know. Welcome to our little club. 

00:13:07 – Sara Walls 

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Weird in the therapy world and also weird in the finance world. 

00:13:12 – Linzy Bonham 

True story. 

00:13:12 – Sara Walls 

Yeah, it’s fun. So, yeah, when I was like, if I’m liking This. And I’ve heard a lot of people hate debits and credits. It’s probably a sign I need to, like, lean into this. 

00:13:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Totally. Yeah. I think in business, that’s often an area of opportunity when you’re like, what? You guys hate this? 

00:13:30 – Sara Walls 

Really? 

00:13:31 – Linzy Bonham 

This is so fun. Like, okay, all right, you want me to talk about this? I feel like that with the work that I do all the time at this point where it’s like, I get to do a call and we just get to talk about money. You’re paying me for this. This is so great. So, yeah, it’s a sign of opportunity in business. So thinking about your clients that you work with, like, I’m curious, what have you seen change for them when they get the right booking keeping support? Because I also know sometimes folks have maybe worked with financial professionals who aren’t a great fit. That’s actually something that comes up a lot in both money skills for therapists and money skills for group practice owners. Is sometimes folks having to reassess, like, oh, my bookkeeper never replies to me, or I asked her this question and she just got really defensive and gave me this evasive answer. And sometimes there is this kind of come to Jesus that ends up having to happen about that relationship of like, oh, is this actually the right fit for me? And if it’s not having to find somebody else for the folks that are working with you, where it is a right fit and obviously you get what they do. Being a therapist, what do you see change for people when they find the right bookkeeper? 

00:14:39 – Sara Walls 

I think a few things. One is just kind of. I mean, very broadly, just how they feel about their books and about their money and their business finances. There’s. There can be this kind of. I’m reluctant to really paint this in broad strokes, but I guess a flavor of gatekeepiness sometimes from some folks in the accounting world. 

00:15:01 – Linzy Bonham 

Don’t be reluctant. It’s the truth speak truth to power. 

00:15:03 – Sara Walls 

All right. Yeah, yeah. Some gatekeepiness, right? 

00:15:06 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah.

00:15:08 – Sara Walls 

A lot of jargon or just a. I don’t know, it may not feel great to ask questions. And so once folks feel like they can ask those questions, I don’t know, it just kind of unlocks something. It unlocks that empowerment or just confidence that, like, oh, okay, I can understand this. This is not a super complicated thing that I’m not smart enough to understand.

00:15:34 – Linzy Bonham 

And I do see that get activated a lot in folks when they do encounter gatekeeping and jargon. Sometimes, like, I think about this more with, like, Financial advisors. But I think about, like, you know, the, like, old white dude behind the big oak desk, which, like, let’s be fair, it’s a nice desk. But it’s like that, like, this is the space between you and I, you know? And, like, people who, like, end up working with their father’s financial advisor, there’s a certain, like, kind of archetypical story. There’s. But where it’s just almost like they want to pat you in the head and be like, don’t worry about that little girl. 

00:16:02 – Sara Walls 

I got this.

00:16:03 – Linzy Bonham 

Which is such fucking bullshit. And I do think that shows up in other spaces in different ways. That’s not what I’ve experienced as more of the flavor in accounting and bookkeeping. But what I do see. And let’s dig into the gatekeeping. I know you were reluctant, but I really want to talk about the gatekeeping. What I do see is this kind of. Other people couldn’t possibly understand this. You can’t understand this or this. Like, almost like. Like it’s a science that is complex. But I would say that bookkeeping is more of an art. Controversial statement, I’m sure, for bookkeepers, none of whom listen to this podcast, except a couple of lovely ones that I can think of who do, like, therapists and bookkeeping combo. But a little bit of this defensiveness around their work that then by putting up a gatekeeper, like the slamming down the gate, they don’t have to answer questions. I’m curious for you, like, what do you think that is? Where does that come from? Because we experience the slamming of the gate and the feeling of like, oh, I must not be smart enough to understand this. What do you think is happening on the other side, as somebody who has a foot in each world. 

00:17:11 – Sara Walls 

Oh, that’s a really good question. That’s a really good question. And that’s one that I’m gonna have to think about for a second. I do think in some ways, bookkeepers maybe are similar to therapists in that I say we. I guess I’m part of both worlds. Sometimes feel a little devalued by clients sometimes. Or by CPAs and tax preparers and people kind of higher up on the ladder in the accounting world. 

00:17:40 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

00:17:41 – Sara Walls 

And so there can be this kind of. Yeah. Defensiveness or protectiveness or like, I need to prove myself or justify my worth or my knowledge or something. Right. 

00:17:51 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And I totally see that. Like. And I’ve sometimes talked to my students about bookkeepers. I think bookkeepers are. They’re used to being ignored by their clients, which also can’t be a good feeling. Right. To be like, you know, you reach out to a client to be like, hey, I’m like missing this thing, or da, da, da, hey. And they just like, they see your email and they’re like, so I can also see you there. Where there would be like, that’s not a fun position to be in as a professional who’s trying to help, because again, you’re helping somebody with something that they don’t enjoy and they find stressful, which is often why they have outsource that task in the first place. But I can also see how relationally that would be a hard position to be in as a bookkeeper, where you’re chasing people and your clients are kind of resentful, or resentful is not the right word. They’re a bit scared of you. You make them do hard things. It kind of makes me think of dentists, right? Where it’s like, nobody is like, yeah, I’m going to the dentist today. Although my dentist has a really nice office and they give you hand massages. Although the hand massages have deteriorated in quality over time, I do have to say. But most people fear going to the dentist. And it’s the same thing. Like, dentists are depressed because nobody’s happy to see you and you’re doing things that are hard. And like, I do wonder if there’s a dentist bookkeeper overlap in that sense. Although dentists get paid way more than you folks, so at least they have like their BMW to drive around to feel better. 

00:19:10 – Sara Walls 

But. 

00:19:10 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, exactly. I would argue that. I think, like, bookkeeping is an underpaid profession. 

00:19:14 – Sara Walls 

Yeah. 

00:19:15 – Linzy Bonham 

I think it’s kind of like the counseling of the accounting world. 

00:19:19 – Sara Walls 

100%. 100%. There’s a lot of talk in bookkeeping groups, too, about is your fee really supporting you and your business. 

00:19:26 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, sometimes the math seems really bad to me. If I even think about my bookkeepers and what I pay them, which is a pretty typical rate. It’s not a low rate, it’s not a high rate. I’m like, wow, how many clients do they have to have to make the numbers of their business work? And it must be a ton for their particular business that I’m thinking about where you have the head bookkeeper, the owner of the company, and then there’s like three different people I talk to. So that’s a lot of humans. And so, yeah, it seems to be a business where, generally speaking, those services are not highly valued and therefore there’s not A lot of compensation for those services, which I’m sure. Yeah. Also contributes to defensiveness or a lack of goodwill maybe, on the part of bookkeepers. Is that fair to say? 

00:20:09 – Sara Walls 

I think that is fair to say. And I also think, too, there is maybe, I don’t know, feeling misunderstood or feeling sometimes there maybe clients are oversimplifying their understanding just a little bit. Right. Like, I’m not trying to make bookkeeping out to be this complicated thing, but when I did kind of lean in and take some of those accounting classes, I was like, oh, okay. There are some more complex things that I didn’t know. I didn’t know. 

00:20:37 – Linzy Bonham 

That’s it. Yeah, certainly. And I think also as soon as you get into any kind of scale in your business or more complicated incorporation statuses. 

00:20:46 – Sara Walls 

Yeah. 

00:20:46 – Linzy Bonham 

There are some more complicated pieces where. Exactly. Like, you don’t know what you don’t know. And so, yeah, I could see clients not necessarily understanding what you’re doing for them because they don’t speak that language. 

00:20:56 – Sara Walls 

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

00:20:58 – Linzy Bonham 

So for therapists who are listening, first of all, takeaway message. Bookkeepers are people, too. Yeah. And thinking maybe, you know, there’s. Yeah. That piece of just, you know, just appreciating what your bookkeeper does for you. They’re doing things that you don’t like to do. What are some financial habits that you would suggest for folks listening, whether or not they’re considering working with a bookkeeper? What do you see as some good financial habits for therapists to put in place to bring down some of the stress around money? 

00:21:27 – Sara Walls 

Really just finding a way to regularly approach your money in some way, whether that’s opening your bank app and looking at it or attending to your spreadsheet or your QuickBooks or whatever. I think having that routine or that consistency does a couple of things. I mean, they’re like little exposures. Right. To kind of help with the anxiety. And also, too, when we do it more, we know what we’re doing. For example, there’s this great decluttering person that I follow. Her name is Dana K. White, and she’s kind of in the ADHD world, and she talks about neurodivergent folks tendency to maybe let the dishes pile up here and there until they become this, like, giant project. And then we have this big festival where we clean all the dishes and spend all day, like, I’m gonna do the thing. 

00:22:25 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes, totally. Totally. 

00:22:26 – Sara Walls 

Yeah. And it’s kind of clunky because we’re like, oh, we’re out of dish soap. Or, like, where did I put the dish wand again? 

00:22:34 – Linzy Bonham 

And also, there’s so many dishes. Where do you stack them all? And you have to start. Yeah, it’s a process. Not a process. It’s a massive project by that project. 

00:22:42 – Sara Walls 

Yes, exactly. Yeah. It’s a project. And sometimes it can be really satisfying to check off the project and complete it and get it off our list. But the thing with dishes and also the thing with money is that there’s gonna be more dishes tomorrow. 

00:22:57 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Yes. 

00:22:58 – Sara Walls 

Or this afternoon. Yeah. So it’s not necessarily something that we can always kind of check off. It’s this thing that’s going to kind of keep coming. And so we have to figure out how to maybe have an ongoing relationship with it. Otherwise, we get into that cycle, right. Where it, like, piles up and it becomes this, like, giant, overwhelming thing that feels terrible and we avoid it, and then we slog through it, and it feels gross and horrible. We never want to do this again. 

00:23:30 – Linzy Bonham 

Exactly. Yes. Which is often tax time for therapists. 

00:23:33 – Sara Walls 

Yes. 

00:23:34 – Linzy Bonham 

That’s when that happens. 

00:23:35 – Sara Walls 

Exactly. 

00:23:36 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. 

00:23:36 – Sara Walls 

And then we’ve done all this work, so we’ve earned a break from it. 

00:23:40 – Linzy Bonham 

True. Yes, totally.

00:23:43 – Sara Walls 

We’ll deal with it later.

00:23:44 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:23:44 – Sara Walls 

You’ll be fine. 

00:23:45 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:23:45 – Sara Walls 

And it repeats. Right, so. Right. 

00:23:47 – Linzy Bonham 

So breaking it down into those little, little steps. And I am curious. You mentioned ADHD neurodivergence. I have found over the last, I’m gonna say, two years of money skills for therapists, maybe three. We have so, so, so many folks coming to the course with new ADHD diagnoses. Women in their 30s and 40s. So for them, not only is it they’re in the course because they want to attend to their money, but there’s also this, like. Okay, now how do I work with this? As somebody with adhd, my brain is wired in a specific way that makes these kinds of tasks hard to get to. So I think, especially thinking of folks with neurodivergence, what do you suggest as a way to actually sit down and do the thing? Because I’m not neurodivergent. And so this is something that I’m surrounded by ADHD folks. They’re my peeps. But because I’m like, the grounded, anchored one who’s less spontaneous and creative. So I am curious. What do you suggest for folks who maybe are getting to know themselves in this new way? How do you make yourself do the thing that you don’t want to do? Specifically talking about money?

00:24:52 – Sara Walls 

In this case, I’ll just share something that’s been Helpful for me is actually one of the things that I started doing in your program. Just kind of getting with somebody else to work on it together, having that little bit of accountability, some co regulation, too, and just kind of a designated time to focus on it. Notes is my huge nemesis. And so I have actually, after this, a designated time with a colleague of mine to focus on notes. And if you can find a therapist friend to focus on money with and do it together, that can really be a game changer. That’s kind of part of what I try to offer through my services, too, is after I complete someone’s books, I send them information. I make a little video with, hey, here’s your numbers and here’s what’s going on. And also, here’s my calendar. Let’s see if we can get some time to look at this together. 

00:25:50 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Because I hear their connection, coagulation. I also think about shame reduction. Right. Of just like, also, you know, when. When the dishes pile up and you’re working it on your own, it’s also kind of this thing where you’re trying to, like, reset, hide the evidence. Whereas when you work on things with somebody else, then it takes some of the charge out of it. I think when you’re just like, okay, I’m working on my thing, you’re working on your thing. Because this is a thing that we all have to do and making that progress. We have an accountability buddy duo finishing up money skills for therapist right now, who. They both took time off in the program, actually, and they’ve both come back at the same time. And they are, like, possibly the cutest accountability partnership I have imagined. And there are two people. Christelle matched them. I can’t claim any of the glory here, but I was just saying to one of them yesterday, I was like, you two are the best accountability partnership I think I’ve ever seen. They meet twice a week. I know they meet for, like, half an hour on Tuesdays to, like, be connected. And then they meet longer later in the week, I think to actually do money stuff together, but. And they’re two people from, like, different walks of life. Different again, they’re not people I would have guessed. But when you find that person who you’re just like, yeah, let’s cheer each other on. Let’s be there for each other. And, hey, you were gonna work on that scary tax form. How’s that going? Or, like, did you call your bookkeeper like you said, it’s so powerful to get you out of. I think that frozen shame kind of Space that we can all get into with different things. So, yeah, I’m hearing the power of CO regulation. Body doubling is the phrase I hear a lot in the ADHD space. That’s a great tip. Sarah Walls, I have one more question for you. 

00:27:25 – Sara Walls 

Yes. 

00:27:25 – Linzy Bonham 

Your business is called Little Frog Bookkeeping, which is the cutest name. Tell me why. Why is it called that? 

00:27:32 – Sara Walls 

Yes, yes, yes. So it actually is a nickname I’ve had for my son. Yeah, I just, whenever I think of it, I have this image. There’s this picture of him just kind of laying on my chest with his little legs tucked under him, his little arms tucked in like a little tree frog. Yeah, yeah. And it was when he showed up that I started feeling like maybe I should start to look into this, this more. And. Cause growing up, I was always a big math and science nerd, and so that kind of pulled toward that younger side of myself. 

00:28:05 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Bringing it around again. 

00:28:07 – Sara Walls 

Yeah, I love that. 

00:28:08 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, so for folks who are interested in learning more about you, learning about your services, where can they find you?

00:28:14 – Sara Walls 

Yeah, so my website is littlefrogfinancial.com I also spend some time on Instagram and LinkedIn here and there. Arawallslcsw. Yeah, those are probably the best places to find me. 

00:28:29 – Linzy Bonham 

Thank you, Sarah, for coming on the podcast. It was lovely to see you again today.

00:28:33 – Sara Walls 

Yeah, you too, Linzy. Thanks so much for having me. 

00:28:44 – Linzy Bonham 

Reflecting on the conversation with Sara, something that sticks out to me is both in our conversation of having a bookkeeper and getting that help and her talking about her experience of therapists becoming more confident in their numbers when they have the right person helping them, but also thinking about our conversation about co regulation, about working on your finances with somebody else, like finding an accountability buddy, a business buddy that you can work with.

00:29:10 – Linzy Bonham 

Both of these things make me think about just the importance of connection around money. You know, money can often be this overly personal, kind of like siloed experience where we each feel like we’re alone trying to figure out how to make money work. But we’re all doing that. Every single one of us has to manage money and figure out how to make it worked for us. So bringing other folks that you like and trust into your financial world, getting their. Whether it’s their. Their literal help with, you know, your bookkeeping, getting your. Your finances organized so that, you know, tax time is easier, whether it’s having somebody sit with you as you look at your numbers, make decisions around them, learn about money breaking down, that. 

00:29:50 – Linzy Bonham 

That shame and isolation around money is so. So so important and something that so few of us actually do. So I think that’s a really valuable takeaway from this conversation with Sarah, which is just think about how you can bring more support and connection into your relationship with money. Whether that’s hiring the right professional, maybe looking around for a different professional if you find that yours does not give you that sense of like being supported. And also think about who are people in your life that you can bring into your relationship with money more, who can support support you in you working on that relationship, whether that’s a business buddy or a partner or spouse or a friend, even just like maybe sitting and doing your taxes together at your dining room table with some fun music playing rather than it being this kind of dark, lonely experience. 

00:30:37 – Linzy Bonham 

So, Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go. From any confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, My Free On Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four-step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

00:00:00 – Linzy Bonham 

This is what I see happen is women in their 30s and 40s, sometimes 50s, realizing that, you know, this and this and this in their life. All these disparate challenges that seemed unconnected all come back to symptoms of add. So let’s talk about why ADD makes money so much harder. All of it really comes back to the fact that ADD is a challenge with executive finance functioning. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances. 

00:00:38 – Linzy Bonham 

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on Demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today I am recording a solo episode for you about ADD and money. We’re gonna talk about how ADD impacts managing money and what you can do about it if you’re somebody who has identified that you have ADD or suspects that you have add. And we’ll talk about that in a moment in Money Skills for Therapists and Money Skills for Group Practice Owners. 

00:01:28 – Linzy Bonham 

In the last couple years, I have had this surge of students who have had recent ADD diagnoses. These are usually women, usually being diagnosed in their late 30s or in their 40s. I can think of a few students, too, who were therapists I worked with way back at the beginning of Running Money Skills for therapists back in 2018, who, in the intervening time, you know, before we worked together again more recently in a group practice course, had been diagnosed with add. 

00:01:56 – Linzy Bonham 

So a lot of folks, I think, who are looking for support around money may have ADD as part of the picture. Right? Because ADD makes money hard. There’s also this missed generation of women who weren’t identified as having ADD going through school. Adhd, of course, is the actual clinical diagnosis. I’m going to use the term ADD here because that’s how I generally see it presenting for folks. There’s this MIS generation of women with ADD who were not identified back when schools started to identify young boys with add in the 90s. And I remember, you know, my brother was part of that kind of wave of them being able to start to identify and, and support Kids with these behaviors. We know that girls with ADD don’t tend to show that hyperactivity. They are like low H or no H, which means that they’re not acting out in the classroom, they’re not identified by teachers, and a lot of what they’re experiencing is internal. And you can end up going through decades of your life before you realize that ADD is what’s happening for you. And this is what I see happen is women in their 30s and 40s, sometimes 50s, realizing that, you know, this and this and this in their life. 

00:03:12 – Linzy Bonham 

All these disparate challenges that seemed unconnected all come back to symptoms of add. So let’s talk about why ADD makes money so much harder. All of it really comes back to the fact that ADD is a challenge with executive functioning. So all of the main hallmarks of add, and I’m not an ADD expert, to be clear, but all the main hallmarks that I’m aware of impact your ability to manage money. 

00:03:41 – Linzy Bonham 

So, for instance, like that difficulty with focus and being able to keep your attention on something that’s not particularly interesting to you, that’s really difficult when it comes to money, because working on our finances and learning about money requires focus. You know, we need to be able to sit with that thing for a while, and that’s going to be more challenging if your brain already has trouble focusing on things that you know are not that interesting to you. Challenges with organization are another part that makes money much harder. Having an organized system when it comes to money really helps to ease and clarify what’s happening. And creating that kind of organization is more challenging, right, with the ADD brain. So there’s another point where it can be more challenging. Forgetfulness with add, you know, like getting absorbed into a task and forgetting what you’re doing, forgetting to do a daily task, missing things also relevant when it comes to money. You know, with money, we have these points that come up where things need to happen, you know, like quarterly remittances need to be made, bills need to be paid. 

00:04:41 – Linzy Bonham 

And having forgetfulness as part of your experience of your daily life is going to make money more challenging. Being easily distracted, of course, makes money harder. Especially, again, if money is not something that you find interesting, if it’s not the most interesting thing going on and something more interesting comes across, your attention, you know, your attention is probably going to easily go to that more interesting thing also, because money’s not always fun, and sometimes it’s uncomfortable and hard to sit with. 

00:05:08 – Linzy Bonham 

And we’ll talk about that in a moment. Then there’s the piece of avoiding tasks that require mental effort. Especially when we are first learning about money and finances, it can be challenging. There is learning there to do. You are learning a new language. And learning a new language is always hardest at the beginning, where you’re starting to forge those brand new neuropathways that were not there before and understand okay, when I look at this, because of how this is organized, this is what this is telling me. The beginning of learning about money is so difficult. That kind of building your literacy when it comes to money takes time and it’s hard. 

00:05:46 – Linzy Bonham 

It requires mental effort. So that’s another point where one of those hallmark symptoms of ADD can get in your way when it comes to learning about money and getting to that place of being able to manage it. Well, the hyperactivity part of ADHD can also make it, of course, hard to sit still and do the work right. Like, money often requires actually, like sitting in one place. If you have a body that has a lot of energy in it and wants to move around, that’s gonna be challenging too. 

00:06:15 – Linzy Bonham 

And then impulsivity could lead to challenges in making grounded financial decisions. Since, you know, you make decisions on the fly without ever stopping to think about, like, does this make sense for you? Does this fit your bigger goals and values and plans? You know, that might be your intention, but if you have an impulsive part of you that comes with your add, overspending and impulsivity tend to go hand in hand. Right. We make fast decisions because something is interesting or fun or it feels like it’s going to fix something. And often those decisions in retrospect don’t actually turn out the way that we want. But that can really lead us to overspend and be spending money in ways that we don’t feel good about, which actually could then lead to this cycle of you don’t really want to look at your numbers because you don’t want to see what’s going on, because you’re not going to like what you see, which feeds into the need to avoid, which feeds into more anxiety. 

00:07:00 – Linzy Bonham 

So there’s a loop that forms there as well, which can also happen with folks who don’t have add, but can be that much more intense when you have maybe some impulsiveness in the mix and it’s already hard to sit down. Now you have a recipe for just like, avoiding it for the rest of time might feel quite tempting. So what can help you when it comes to ADD and money? I’m going to share what I have seen work for the therapists who have worked with me inside of Money skills for therapists and money Skills for group practice owners. And there are four things that I’m going to talk about. There is body doubling and CO regulation. 

00:07:34 – Linzy Bonham 

That’s one thing. Creating set times to do the work, automation and delegation. So let’s get into each of those things. First of all, body doubling and CO regulation, it can be very challenging to make yourself do something that you don’t really want to do, right? Especially something that’s going to require that mental effort that we were just talking about that is going to possibly bring up emotions that are gonna be unpleasant to sit with, maybe like guilt or shame or fear. You know, like these are emotions that none of us wants to just like willingly dive into on a daily basis. 

00:08:07 – Linzy Bonham 

And it’s gonna be that much more tempting to avoid them because of all the pieces we just talked about. So using that power of CO regulation can be huge to make you do things that you’d otherwise avoid. The way that I tend to see this work really well with folks is either by being part of a group where there is the, the group atmosphere, like there’s a group co working. So for instance, in money skills for therapists we have group co working calls where it’s like you can go and you can plug yourself into that group. You know that you’re going to go at this certain time and during that time you’re going to be able to do the work. You’re going to be with other people who are also doing the work, you’re going to see them, your nervous system is going to be able to attune into their nervous system to keep you focused and on track. 

00:08:48 – Linzy Bonham 

And in that group context, with a set period of time, you know, there’s a container there, you can plug yourself in to that to get yourself going on doing the work. The other thing that I’ve seen work really well is accountability buddies for body doubling and co regulation. So having a good friend, a good colleague who you can be accountable to in terms of specifically finances. And this is something that we do for folks both in money Skills for therapists and money skills circuit practice owners as we offer accountability buddy matching. 

00:09:18 – Linzy Bonham 

Because having that more intimate personal relationship with somebody you know and being able to share with them why it’s worth it for you to learn these skills, why it’s worth it for you to be doing this work, getting to know them, getting to know each other’s goals, cheering each other on, and then also being able to sit down and cowork and check in and be like, hey, you know, how did that hard conversation at the bank go? Did you do it? What is your decision? What are you doing next? Or, you know, did you have that hard conversation with a team member? If you’re a group practice owner, having somebody to check in with to help you keep doing the work and help you keep doing the things you don’t want to do and even just to sit down and do your regular finances with can be a way to make something happen that otherwise, left to your own devices, might feel absolutely impossible. 

00:10:01 – Linzy Bonham 

Another piece that fits with that, but is a slightly different aspect of it is creating set times to do the work right? If you don’t make working on your finances and working on your group practice finances something you don’t want to make working on your group practice finances something that you’re going to have to just find time to fit in somewhere, because if it’s not compelling to you, if it’s not interesting, it’s likely never going to rise to the top of your to do list until there’s some sort of crisis, right? Until the situation is dire, until you’re right down to the wire and it’s like tax time and now you have 10 months of stuff to catch up on or 12 months of stuff to catch up on. 

00:10:36 – Linzy Bonham 

Add generally, and I see this in my own relationship with my spouse who has addicted to is, it can often be very hard to make yourself do something until it’s absolutely. 

00:10:47 – Linzy Bonham 

There’s no time to hesitate anymore. You’re down to like the last minute. And that’s a really stressful way to engage with money because then you’re only ever touching your money at a time where basically now things are kind of on fire or about to fall apart, which of course is not going to give you a positive relationship, not going to make you want to work on it. Going to be a great reason to avoid again until a year from now when it’s tax time again. And then you’re in this terrible cycle, right? So getting those set times into your calendar. You know, in money skills for therapists, we call this money time. In the group practice course, we call this CFO time chief Financial officer. Because in a group practice, you’re going to have other large financial decisions that you’re going to be making and other pieces that are going to be part of this work with a more complex business, having that set in your calendar so you don’t have to make the active decision on any given day that it’s time to work on your money, but it’s already there. Takes away that need to make a decision and then it’s about making sure that you actually have the supports to follow the plan. 

00:11:44 – Linzy Bonham 

So probably a combination of having set times to do the work and some body doubling, co regulation, accountability is what I see most helpful for most people with ADD is that combo, right? We don’t want you to have to make fresh decisions all the time. When it comes to money, decision fatigue with money is huge. You shouldn’t have to decide what day you’re gonna work on money. It should be a default that you work on it every Tuesday from 2 to 3, right? And then your accountability buddy can also be there. Or if you can check in with them afterwards, or if you can plug yourself into a co working call with a bunch of people, that’s going to make it that much easier to go follow through on what you’ve actually promised to yourself because it feels good to seeing yourself also do the things that you’ve told yourself you’re going to do. 

00:12:24 – Linzy Bonham 

The last two pieces here, automation and delegation certainly go hand in hand. They’re two ways to kind of solve the same problem. Talk about automation. First, this is where I sometimes see the perfectionism of therapists and maybe a little bit of like the shame based idea that people like need to be doing this all themselves to like atone for lost time can really get in their way, right? We can really get this idea in our head that we need to be doing it manually, we need to be touching everything. 

00:12:54 – Linzy Bonham 

We need to understand how every little thing works. And it is important to understand how money works. But automation is also your friend, right? Let the robots help you. Since executive functioning, that ability to stop and organize yourself, to focus on the things that you’re not really that interested in is a challenge. Creating automation in your financial systems as much as possible is a gift to yourself, right? Like using a banking system like Relay, for instance, that allows you to have those profit first accounts. And this is only for Americans, unfortunately. But for Americans, you know, using a bank like Relay that has those automatic profit first accounts, if that’s a system you’re using and lets you automate the transfers. 

00:13:31 – Linzy Bonham 

And I’ve helped people set this up before where it’s like, okay, Every Tuesday at 10am the money’s gonna be divided up along these percentages and then it’s just being done. And you don’t have to stop on Tuesday and remember that you have to go and do your transfers because between like forgetfulness and the challenge with Focusing, you’re kind of setting yourself up for a challenge that doesn’t need to be there if it could be automated instead. So finding automations in your systems, having it so that bills are paid automatically. For instance, you’ve got your credit card on file with all your major bills. You are as much as possible taking that need to sit down and remember to do a task off your plate. It’s not making your life better for you to do that yourself. So automating those pieces is just going to save you so much bandwidth that really is way better serving you somewhere else. Delegation is automation’s cousin that involves humans, right? So you are never going to be the king or queen of executive functioning, right? Nor should you be. 

00:14:30 – Linzy Bonham 

This is not how your brain works. So bring someone onto your team who just loves this shit. Like you never have to do this alone. A good VA in your business is worth their weight in gold. And asking someone to help you in your solo practice or in your group practice with some key financial tasks or having a bookkeeper doing your monthly finances, it allows someone who loves order and loves making things like tidy bring their magic to your business and make that happen in your business while you focus on doing your own magic in the other areas of the business that you thrive. 

00:15:03 – Linzy Bonham 

Your therapeutic magic, your leadership, all the other cool shit that you’re making using your creativity and your vision. That is where your energy is best served to not in doing a bunch of tasks that you hate. Now. You can never give away the financial leadership part of your business. 

00:15:19 – Linzy Bonham 

You are always going to have to be that person who looks at the big picture, decides what his values aligned for the business, makes the big decisions, maybe makes the hard decisions. You can never give away the financial leadership of your business that is yours. But you can give away these menial little tasks that to you are going to feel boring and maybe meaningless that somebody else is actually gonna really enjoy doing. There’s people who really thrive on creating order out of chaos. They just like love it. And pairing with one of those people, bringing one of those people into your business is a gift for both of you because they get to do what they love to do and create order. And you get to benefit from that without trying to bend your brain into a bunch of shapes that are just really not how your brain works. 

00:16:09 – Linzy Bonham 

You’re always going to be responsible for those big picture decisions, but you can leave those little financial tasks to someone else. So to do a quick review of those four pieces that I found helpful for folks with ADD to help them with money. The first one was that body doubling and co regulation. The second one was that creating that set time to do the work. 

00:16:29 – Linzy Bonham 

The third was automation. And the fourth was delegation. And when you get the right combination of those things working in your private practice, helping you with your finances, this thing that can feel overwhelming and kind of the opposite of what your brain wants to do can become much more neutral or even positive, right? The more that you can take away the tasks that make it feel like your brain doesn’t work well because you’re asking your brain to do something that is just not what it’s naturally good at, the more you can take those away, the more you can build systems and supports and bring in help to take care of those things, the more you can show up and shine and in your business and in your life in the ways that your gifts allow you to do right? And with add, I will say I spend my life surrounded by folks with add. 

00:17:16 – Linzy Bonham 

It is a great counter to my kind of personality, which tends to be more maybe overly grounded, maybe a little overly serious. Maybe sometimes I get a little sad if left to my own devices. So I tend to be surrounded in my life with folks with ADD because they’re sparky and smart and spontaneous. They make really cool shit happen that I would never think to do. And so lean into those strengths in yourself. Don’t feel like you have to be somebody else. Don’t feel like you have to make your brain do things that it can’t do. It’s putting the right supports in place so that you can take care of the money, so the money can take care of you while you do the amazing things that you do in this world. 

00:17:56 – Linzy Bonham 

Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

00:00:00 – Linzy Bonham 

What are the fears that come up about the idea of, let’s, let’s say next month you take a month off. What are the fears about what would happen? 

00:00:10 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I just, like, notice in my body when you asked that question, like, it almost felt like, wow, will my clients be there when I get back? 

00:00:18 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:00:19 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

And, yeah, like, kind of wondering that question. And also in the same way as an artist, too, like, will people forget me? Right. Will people not know that I’m around and available for work? You know? And so, yeah, there is this feeling of, like, do I have to start over again? Or like, yeah. 

00:00:35 – Linzy Bonham 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching episode with Edgar Fabien Frias. Edgar is a graduate of many Skills for Therapists. They are in podcast speak, a friend of the pod. Edgar has submitted a couple questions over the years for Feelings and Finances episodes. They are a lovely human therapist based in California, as well as a visual artist. And today, Edgar and I dig into the challenges of taking time off. How do you take time away from your business? How do you trust that what you’ve built is still going to be there, that your clients are still going to be there? We get into the questions and obstacles that are coming up for Edgar as they consider taking some significant time away from their practice. So if you are someone who finds it hard to take time off, if you know you need a break but find that you keep putting that off into the future, this is a great episode for you to listen to. Here is my conversation with Edgar Fabian Frias. So, Edgar, welcome to the podcast. 

00:02:24 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s such a dream to be on this podcast. 

00:02:29 – Linzy Bonham 

Well, we were just chatting about how it almost feels like you have been on the podcast because I’ve featured your questions a couple times. And also you and I have just been able to have so much face to Face time. That I’m like, oh, we haven’t recorded a podcast episode together, but emotionally, it. 

00:02:44 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Feels like we’ve definitely been in conversation. 

00:02:45 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes, absolutely. So, Edgar, for our conversation today, what would be helpful for us to dig into? 

00:02:52 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I feel like I have two questions, like, one of them being, I’ve been in private practice now for a little over two years, and I’ve made a lot of changes and feel really good about where it’s at. Like, it feels really stable, and it feels really almost like it’s like running itself, even though I definitely still have to put energy into it for it to keep going. And because of that, I am in a place where I’m both feeling like I need to take time off. I need to, like, give myself permission to do that. And I’m definitely coming up against resistance. And at the same time, I’m also, like, wanting to create more, and I’m, like, feeling inspired to, like, expand my business and expand myself, and I feel like there’s a connection here, and so I kind of just want to explore these two things. 

00:03:39 – Linzy Bonham 

Absolutely. Yeah. So tell me about that. Wanting to take a break and the resistance. What’s happening with that? 

00:03:46 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, so just a little bit of background of myself. I come from a family of folks who never had businesses, and so I never really thought I would be a business owner. I kind of came into this almost, like, unintentionally, like, really feeling like, I guess I’m a business owner now. Right. And because of that, I really worked hard in learning about business and finance and, like, getting myself to a place where I feel like I understand my businesses well. And I have two businesses. I’m both a therapist in private practice. I also am a visual artist and do exhibitions and, like, I do artist lectures and events and stuff. And so I’ve kind of gotten myself to a place where, like, I’m like, I understand what it means to be a business owner. I’m, like, kind of putting my ducks in a row and getting myself financially stable. But it’s still something that feels. I guess there’s a part of me that feels, like, afraid or feels like I’m still so new at this or I still don’t know enough about this to, in a sense, have that comfort and ease when I feel like as a worker, I’d be very joyous and very liberal with my pto. Right. Like, I’m gonna take time because I know it’s there, but there’s still a part of me that’s like, does that exist in My businesses, Is that allowed? Will things fall apart? And so I think that is where some of that fear comes up. 

00:05:08 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. The word that’s coming up for me is trust. Like, trusting what you’ve built, that it’s actually solid. Because I’m hearing that this is something you’ve had to figure out on your own. Right. Like accessing resources, like, you know, the work that we’ve done together and other resources. You’ve had to work hard because you never had the role model of what being a business owner could look like. Right. You didn’t grow up with that. So you’ve built it. You’ve built it through your own learning and your own work. But now it’s like, can you trust it? Will it still be there if you step away for a minute? 

00:05:40 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yes. 

00:05:40 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Yeah. Because I am curious, what is the narrative that comes up? What are the fears that come up about the idea of, let’s. Let’s say next month you take a month off? What are the fears about what would happen? 

00:05:55 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I just, like, notice in my body when you ask that question, like, it almost felt like, wow, will my clients be there when I get back? 

00:06:02 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:06:04 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

And, yeah, like, kind of wondering that question. And also, in the same way, as an artist, too, like, will people forget me? Right. Will people not know that I’m around and available for work? You know? And so, yeah, there is this feeling of, like, do I have to start over again? Or, like. 

00:06:17 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, okay. Okay. Because what I’m noticing is it the fear seems specifically around being forgotten, like, losing connection. But, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about the content of that? Like, how would your clients forget you or not be there? What would happen? What’s the story? 

00:06:36 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Well, I think, you know, part of it is that thinking that my clients, they expect to see me and, you know, they’re getting something out of our work together. And as I said, have been in practice for a little over two years, and I have not taken, really, a break. I have taken maybe, like, a week or two off, but I haven’t really taken, like, a whole month, you know, And I think even, like two weeks, maybe total, I don’t think I’ve taken. And I think there is this feeling that because I’ve made, like, an agreement with my clients that I need to be there for them. And if I’m not there for, like, a month, let’s say they’re gonna, like, need to get their support somewhere else. Right. And so. And even though, like, I. As I’m saying this, I’M like, also remembering that I have some clients that I’m working with that I’ve seen for those entire two years and have had their own time off, you know, and so they have come back. They’ve had not forgotten me. But there is that, I guess, that feeling in me of like they’re. They need me and so I need to be there, you know? 

00:07:31 – Linzy Bonham 

Right, right. And I am curious about the clients you work with. Do they need you every week? You know, I don’t know the profile of the folks you work with. Right. Tell me about your typical client. How urgent is the work? Is this suicide prevention? Tell me about the work you’re doing. 

00:07:51 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I would say most of my clients are pretty stable. And I work with different folks. Like, I work with folks who are like, highly sensitive neurodiverse. I work with queer and trans folks. And I also work with people who are either artists. And I do have some folks who are in, like, the poly E and M and kink community. And we’re working on relationship stuff. We’re working on family interpersonal dynamics and also roles as an artist or as a person. Right. And so none of it is like, emergency work. 

00:08:21 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, I’m hearing that. 

00:08:22 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

So I don’t feel like. Yeah, they don’t. Like they would be okay if I took a little bit of time off. 

00:08:26 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes, yes. Yeah. Because there are certain circumstances where we certainly would want to think about continuation of care. Like, if somebody’s doing an intensive DBT program, you don’t just leave for a month. But I am hearing that the things that people are working on, they’re going to be folks who are generally stable and higher. Higher functioning. I would assume so. Yeah. Like, when you notice that. That your clients are. They’re adults. They would be okay without you. They’re okay without you. I wish I knew how many hours there were in a week. Do you know how many hours there are in a week? I want to do the math of, like, you see them one hour a week, they are without you every other hour of that week. And they’re okay. What do you. What do you notice with the. That information being more present? 

00:09:08 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I definitely noticed, like, a softening and I feel like a. A little bit less weight and kind of an understanding of like, yeah, it’s. It’s okay if you take time off. Like, they’ll be okay and they’ll be able to continue when you get back. 

00:09:23 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. On the flip side, I’m curious about what could actually be positive or helpful from your client’s perspective. About you taking, let’s say, a month off for a little sabbatical. 

00:09:33 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. I would say it could give people time to integrate. It could give people time to explore other things. And I have noticed that when clients take time off on their own, that they do sometimes come back with either, like, new insights or they feel reinvigorated or they’ve made progress on some goals that we have together. And so I have noticed how it’s been helpful for them to take time off. 

00:09:55 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. A little bit of integration time can be a good thing. 

00:09:58 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. 

00:09:58 – Linzy Bonham 

Because it’s also a chance for them to practice skills and make observations without you being there all the time. Right. Like, there can be this little bit of a dependency that we develop as therapists just because of the regularity of the work. So it’s actually, like, a little bit of them getting to use their skills. Yeah. And what do you notice thinking about that, that it could actually be beneficial to your clients? 

00:10:21 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I definitely noticed a little bit of excitement of, like, oh, my gosh, like, yeah, this. It could be really great for us to do this and actually could be really supportive in the work that we’re doing. And so it’s. I feel like the therapist. Hat part of me is like, oh, wow. Like, I would be interested in this as a therapist to see what would happen. 

00:10:40 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then I’m curious now if we come back to the idea again of you taking a month off, what rises up now? 

00:10:49 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I definitely still feel like the. It’s not fear, but more of the unknown there. But it doesn’t feel scary. It’s feeling more, like, potential. And so, like, I feel, like, a little bit excited and both potential in terms of my clients, but also potential in terms of myself of, like, what could happen for me, you know, too. 

00:11:08 – Linzy Bonham 

Because I am curious. Are there any parts of you that have objections about you deserving time off or time off being a good thing? Like, have you gotten to the place where you know that time off is good and you deserve it? And. Or is there any objections inside about that? 

00:11:24 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I definitely have, like, capitalist conditioning, you know, And I think a lot, like, a lot of us do, where it’s, like, it does feel hard to rest and to not take time off. And I definitely know that there are parts of me that get really upset if I’m not working on projects. Like, I’m someone who’s kind of. I feel like I historically have overloaded myself as a person because there are. There is a part of me that loves that, like, especially as like in my art practice, for example, a lot of people comment to me like, how do you do so much stuff? And it is a. There is a part of me that loves having lots of things to work on. And so I think that part also gets maybe uncomfortable. But I also, like, I think theoretically and also even values wise, I do understand how important it is to not work and to rest and to let your mind wander and play. Those are also big values of mine. So kind of in between, I would. 

00:12:22 – Linzy Bonham 

Say, because I’m hearing there would actually be a strong values alignment to you taking a good amount of time off. Right. And something that occurs to me as I think about that part of you that loves projects and is maybe a little bit anxious about that idea. It’s not to say you can’t do any projects while you’re off. You’re not going to be working in your business. Right. So let’s go to that second piece then that you mentioned about wanting to grow and expand the business. I’m curious, could taking more time off support that? Can these things actually dovetail together? Tell me about how you see those things being related. 

00:12:56 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I do feel like I’m needing that type of space where I’m kind of at the precipice of wanting to create either new offerings or new ways to connect with people. And I do feel like I have the seedlings of those things. But I do need space to let them develop and grow. And I also have. One of the reasons I’ve been thinking about really wanting to take time off is I was offered a book deal by someone and so I need to spend time working on my book. And I’ve just noticed that when I am working as a therapist or working on my art practice and having both of those kind of take up my time, it’s hard to make the space to really work on writing. And writing takes so much time. And so I’ve really been thinking, like I could really benefit from having time off both in terms of working on this project and also just dreaming or having time to explore things and getting inspired. And it feels important because I, as I said, I do feel like my businesses are in a place where they’re wanting to mutate and grow. And I really feel like they deserve that time and space to really honor what they’re wanting to. To be or how they’re wanting to emerge. 

00:14:06 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And there is such a power to stepping away from being in the everyday and letting those things that haven’t had space. You know, those seedlings in Your mind, see which ones start to take shape. And I worked with a therapist a few years ago when I was starting this business full time. I had a lot of anxiety. There was, you know, all the feelings. And something that he would talk about is letting the programs run in the background. Like, sometimes you can’t force it. Like, you can’t sit down and do it. You can’t work all the time. But you’re out for a walk and the program’s kind of running in the background and suddenly an idea floats up or a connection you haven’t made before because your mind is still working on it. But we can’t be always actively working. Right. We can’t always be using that frontal part of our brain. There’s a finite capacity there. And especially in terms of creativity. It makes me think about emdr, which I used to practice. When we allow our brain to free, associate and get out of our normal ways of thinking. All these new connections are possible. But we can’t do that when we’re in our normal thinking, working mode all the time. So, yeah, I see this as twofold. But also something that’s come up for me as you’re mentioning the book is I’m like, you gotta write a book, too. Is that time off, Edgar? 

00:15:15 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I feel like it’s time off in my world where it’s like, if I’m working on one project that does feel very relaxed. But also, maybe I need both a sabbatical to enjoy myself and also some time to work on this book, too. 

00:15:28 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Because I could see those also being two very different types of energy. Right. And I have not written a book. I’m considering writing a book. But all I know from writers and what I hear about writing is I think about kind of you and I are both Cal Newport fans. So thinking about Cal Newport and this idea of deep work and really being kind of having all those files open in your brain that you need to do to do creative, generative kind of work. And that’s a very specific space to be. Which is actually not the kind of restful space we were just talking about with the programs running in the background. That’s very much like a fully online space. And so, yeah, it does make me curious about the different things we’re talking about. Maybe is the writing the book a different chunk of time away from your business or the time is allocated to that in a very specific way that supports that. That’s actually separate from maybe having another two weeks to just hang out with the people that you love and Go for walks or go to a great gallery you haven’t been to in a long time, whatever that is. What do you think about that idea of those maybe being different needs? 

00:16:28 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. I completely would understand the importance of that. And I feel like that feels really exciting to, like, imagine what it could be to have actual time to. Yeah. Just rest and explore and get inspired. I do feel like that is so important. And I think what’s coming up is I’m remembering in terms of, like, building and working on my business. Like, when I first got that idea of there’s working in your business and working on your business and really starting to prioritize and, like, make space for working on my business and witnessing, like, how that has transformed my business. 

00:17:06 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:17:06 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I’m feeling that connection where, like, it’s something I didn’t even think about before. Right. And when it emerged and came into my life, it really shifted things. And so in a similar way, like. Yeah, I’m imagining just, like, giving myself space to wander and to play and to explore could be so generative for me. Yes. For my businesses. 

00:17:27 – Linzy Bonham 

So if we think about now moving towards more of an action space, because I know that this is something that intellectually, some parts of you were already on board with this conversation. 

00:17:36 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Totally. 

00:17:37 – Linzy Bonham 

But there’s a big gap between us knowing something could be good and actually doing it. If we think practically. Let’s break out the writing space from the restful space. How much time do you want to set aside to focus on the book project? How much time off knowing yourself and how you work? What would be a nice block of time to put aside for that project? Project. 

00:17:59 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. I feel like I like the two weeks. Two weeks does feel good. 

00:18:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. 

00:18:04 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Knowing what I have to do. Yeah. I feel like two weeks feels good. 

00:18:09 – Linzy Bonham 

So two weeks for writing your book. That is not time off, to be clear. That is author time. You’re going to take two weeks of your author time, and then what about for that restful, playful time? How much time do you need for that? 

00:18:24 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I, like, I immediately heard, like, at least two weeks. 

00:18:27 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Okay. Minimum. Minimum two. Okay. 

00:18:31 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. 

00:18:32 – Linzy Bonham 

And do these things happen one after the other, or are these two things that happen in separate time periods? 

00:18:39 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I feel like they could happen in separate time periods. 

00:18:41 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:18:42 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I’m feeling like I know one with writing. I do, because of, like, you know, being inspired by Cal Newport. I do want to, like, go somewhere different, you know, like, put myself in a different environment. Like, I really. I have some ideas around that. And I feel like two weeks was Like a good kind of chunk of time. And for the other time, I would like for it to be maybe have a little bit of travel but also have some restful at home time too. 

00:19:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, so which of these needs to happen first? 

00:19:07 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

The book, I feel. 

00:19:08 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. Yeah. I was wondering if you have maybe some deadlines with the book. 

00:19:12 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

They’re very loose, but. Yeah, but they exist. Yeah. Whereas my playtime doesn’t have deadlines. 

00:19:19 – Linzy Bonham 

But also we know that there’s parts of you that are needing it. Right. So we don’t want to put that off too far. But I’m hearing okay, so two weeks to work on the book comes first, which I could also see it is going to be restful in a different way. Right. Because you’re going to be out of your normal day to day. It’s going to be exciting and rich. And you know, I’m a project person too, so I understand the yum of projects. So when does that need to happen? How soon does your book time need to happen? 

00:19:44 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

You know, soonish. Like I was already like in my head kind of planning for like late August, early September as like a kind of time that I could potentially do that, take those two weeks off. And I was already kind of planning in my mind with my clients too. And so I was at some point going to bring it up once I like decided, you know, like when I’m going to do this. 

00:20:05 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. 

00:20:05 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. And yeah, that feels good. 

00:20:09 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, so that’ll be end of the summer. And you know, with where we are right now with recording, you’d be able to give folks more than a month’s notice, which is lots of time I think, for the caseload that you have. I will also say this probably isn’t relevant for you, but I took a six week honeymoon when I got married, which is almost 10 years ago now, crazy to say. And I did have some clients where six weeks was not an amount of time that they could go without support. And so in that case I did connect them with colleagues of mine and my highest needs clients saw other people while I was away, which was also interesting and helpful too because then my colleagues, we were able to consult afterwards with the client’s consent and get a colleague’s perspective on a client, which is also really valuable and doesn’t really happen. So that was an unseen bonus of it. But I will just say that’s always an option too. Right. We are always able to set somebody up. Or maybe your clients might have other work that they’ve been wanting to do that they’re not doing because they’re seeing you that they could do during some time that you’re away. So sometimes that’s clinically indicated. I’m saying that too, for folks listening in case you have, you know, higher needs clients who are less high functioning or stable. But I’m hearing book August, September, and then what about your playful wander time? When does that happen? 

00:21:26 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, I have been feeling like towards the end of the year, maybe in like November. I feel like November feels okay to take some time. My partner and I have both been wanting to travel. I’m going to New York in October. I know that, but that’s like, more work. But I was thinking in November of us taking time to actually, like, go somewhere for fun. My partner’s sister lives abroad in England, and so we’ve been thinking about going to London and maybe spending some time in Europe. And so that would be a nice time to. Yeah, I would love to, like, not be working and just like, be able to enjoy myself on a trip like that. 

00:22:06 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. So November. Ish. Heading to Europe for a couple weeks. 

00:22:12 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah. 

00:22:12 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay. Okay. What do you notice thinking about that? 

00:22:14 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

It feels good, it feels exciting, and I do feel like the. I know. I’m noticing that there were parts of me that were like, kind of already planning this. And in a sense, it feels really good to feel clear about it. And I’m noticing, like, almost no hesitation, no fear, just like, okay, this. This feels right. Like, this feels good. 

00:22:35 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And then financially, is your practice already set up to cover these leaves? Are you going to have to do a little bit of rejigging your systems? How is that going to work? 

00:22:45 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Yeah, it’s interesting because I. I was building a big financial bucket in my private practice and I recently got really excited by a training, as happens, you know, and my bucket went down. And so I do feel like I’m slowly building it back up. But thankfully, because of the work that we’ve done together, I just financially feel pretty stable. 

00:23:09 – Linzy Bonham 

Right. 

00:23:09 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Because even if it’s not in my business, it’s in other places. Right. And so I feel like that is like, one of the rewards of, like, really working on my finances is that even if my business can’t handle it, it’d be amazing if my business could handle all of it. But I just know that I. I can personally handle it. 

00:23:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Great. So the money. The money will be there. You’ve built the systems to make the money be there, which is. Makes me so happy. I love this so much. I know. 

00:23:34 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

And I honestly as like, you Know someone who was so talented by money and felt so out of control with it. It’s been so amazing to be on the other side of it and be like, oh, my gosh, I’m comfortable with money. And I also feel like I have this ability to dream. This is actually something I was thinking about earlier this morning was what’s on the other side of, like, stress and anxiety of money, you know? And it is just, like, ability to dream and to imagine. And I think that’s like, also why I am in a place where I feel like even the possibility of, like, I can have more financial stability, I can have more financial success. And that is huge, too, because I think it is all, like, on the other side of that, like, fear around money, that there is also possibility with money. There’s also dreaming with money, too. 

00:24:23 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. Yeah. I think. I think the charge that can make money so fraught and stressful, like, all that energy, once it transforms, is so much possibility and potential. Like, money’s powerful, right? So it can be very powerful in the negative. And now you’re on the other side where it’s like, there’s so, so much potential there because of what you’ve managed to do. So, Edgar, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you. What are you noticing? 

00:24:50 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

I’m just noticing one, like, a feeling of gratitude just for having had this conversation and feeling clarity. And I’m also noticing, like, bubbling up this, like, noticing how excited I am around finances and, like, vocation. And it’s one of the, like, little seedlings that’s in there. Is that one of my first jobs ever as a therapist was as a vocational counselor, and I’ve left it because, like, now I do, like, somatic therapy and existential, spiritual, like, therapy, but I feel like that vocational counselor part of me is, like, very excited by the idea of work and money. And so I do feel like that’s one of the little seedlings that’s in there of, like, wanting to support other people, having noticed how much it’s improved and changed my own life and so wanting to, like, help other people be able to reach that. And so I’m noticing that, like, excitement there, too, as we were, like, finishing this conversation. 

00:25:45 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah, sparks like that should be followed. There’s always so much fun within those sparks. Edgar, thank you so much for joining me today. It is, like, such a pleasure to actually have you on the podcast as a guest, but to also, like, it’s. It’s been such a pleasure to be able to witness your growth over the couple years that I’ve gotten to know you so far. So I’m just so excited with where you are and writing a book. You’re gonna do your writer’s retreat, you’re gonna live that Cal Newport life that you and I listen to so much, but also being able to just explore and play and nurture all these seedlings. You have done immense work in this area, and it’s just so beautiful to see it paying off for you. 

00:26:27 – Edgar Fabián Frías 

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much, Linzy. And I just want to thank you for all the work that you do. And your podcast is one of the first podcasts I ever heard, when I started to dream about having a different kind of private practice. And just want to thank you for how much you’ve helped me on this journey and all the folks that you help. And I definitely am constantly recommending your work to people because I know how transformative it is. 

00:26:53 – Linzy Bonham 

Thank you. Thanks, Edgar. Thanks for coming on the podcast today. Something that sticks out to me from the conversation with Edgar is the stories that we can make about our clients, like, the narratives about them and kind of how much they need us or in what ways they need us. It’s so easy as therapists to be overly attuned to the vulnerabilities of our clients because, of course, we sit with them in the most vulnerable parts of them. You know, we hear about all the things that are hard and not working or all the things that have been really difficult in their lives. And what we forget and can forget is that they are resilient humans and, generally speaking, adults who might actually benefit from having time away from us. As Edgar eventually settled on that it could actually be great for their clients to have some time away from therapy and have time to integrate and implement and try out the skills on their own outside of that regular rhythm. But it is so easy for us to make up some stories about our clients and the terrible things that will happen if we take time away from them. And generally speaking, when we actually do take time off, we are modeling to our clients that it is important to take care of yourself. You know, our clients see what we do, they hear what we say, but more importantly, they see what we do. And when we never take time away, when we don’t show them that we’re living expansive lives, they know that on some level, you know, that we are someone who works all the time and isn’t actually out exploring and enjoying the world, as we are often supporting our clients to be able to do so. There’s also, I think a beautiful alignment piece there. When we do take actual time off and we tell our clients that we’re taking time off and maybe they know that we’re going away to Europe for a couple weeks, we’re showing them that we are also living life and that it is important to live life and it’s not just something to talk about, but it’s something to actually do. So I think there’s a lot of beautiful benefits here for Edgar’s clients when they take that time away to work on the book and to go to Europe. And so helpful just to be able to to unpack those stories and remind ourselves that our clients can actually benefit when we take time away from them. And as I mentioned in the conversation with Edgar, if they are folks who cannot be away from therapy for a few weeks, we can also arrange for them to work with somebody else. We’re not the only therapists out there. So I’m so excited for Edgar and all the amazing things that they’re going to be doing with their time in the coming months. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. 

00:00:00 – Maegan Megginson 

This is a crazy thing to say, but I’m gonna throw it out there. Being in this role has given me more compassion for like, the 1950s husbands than I ever had. It’s like, oh, say more. Yeah, it’s a different, it is a different felt experience to hold in your body the pressure to make sure that your family’s mortgage is paid right and to have that experience of like, that you’re holding. I feel as a breadwinner that I am holding in my body most of the time the energy and the emotional capacity that is needed for me to produce the money that we need to survive. 

00:00:38 – Linzy Bonham 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is the one and only Maegan Megginson, one of my biz besties. And today Maegan and I dig into the topic of being the breadwinner, specifically being the breadwinner as a female identified person, you know, in a hetero relationship, which is our own experiences. But I share in this podcast and the reason I wanted Maegan to talk about this topic on the podcast with me is I see so many therapists in Money Skills for Therapists, my six month course for therapists in solo practice. So many therapists in that course are female breadwinners or are in queer relationship and the breadwinner in their family. And Maegan and I today talk about our own experiences with being breadwinners. She shares about the negotiations that her and her partner have done over the years to make their relationship situation work in terms of her breadwinning, him being in charge of the household. We talk about my relationship and how it looks different or similar to hers and how to have a healthy relationship when the gender dynamics are not your traditional gender dynamics. But we also talk about unhealthy breadwinning when one partner is really actually carrying the relationship and there is not balance there. And the difference between these things kind of authentic breadwinning and Kind of being left carrying all the things. Here is my conversation with Maegan Megginson. Maegan, welcome back to the podcast. 

00:02:47 – Maegan Megginson 

Linz. I’m so happy to be here. 

00:02:50 – Linzy Bonham 

I’m so happy to have you here. I will say to folks listening, Maegan and I just had to have a little pep talk beforehand that we are going to keep this within a certain time frame because we’re not very good at that. 

00:03:00 – Maegan Megginson 

I’m going to be so well behaved, it’s going to blow your mind. 

00:03:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, so, Maegan, I want to dig in with you today on the topic of female breadwinners. It’s a topic you and I know well. Hi. 

00:03:15 – Maegan Megginson 

Love it. 

00:03:17 – Linzy Bonham 

So I see this as a trend in the folks that I serve in Money Skills for Therapists. Many of my students who identify as female also find themselves in a breadwinner role, which I’m going to say is not probably statistically the norm in general society, that the female partner of a hetero couple is the breadwinner. But I see it a lot. You and I also both know this role well. I wanted to start by asking you to talk a little bit about your own experiences with being the breadwinner in your marriage. 

00:03:53 – Maegan Megginson 

Okay, watch this. I’m going to be so succinct. Here we go. Okay. I love this question. So I definitely did not start out as the breadwinner and my relationship with Jonathan, just to be clear. In fact, it was like, to call, like, the great bait and switch, because when we got together, he was an oil and gas engineer. He drove a BMW. You know, I was like, I could totally be into this lifestyle. Absolutely. I had this, like, teeny, tiny private practice that didn’t need to be prolific in order to provide for our lives. So there was, like, very little stress. And then we reached this point in our life together where we realized kind of simultaneously that he didn’t want to do what he was doing anymore. And I actually felt very, like, under fulfilled in what I was doing. So we started this, like, great gender role renegotiation in our lives where I had to really step into the truth that I carried more of that masculine, doer, ambitious energy in my body than he did. And that actually I wanted to be the one who was sort of leading the charge and creating a business and generating financial wealth for our family. And he really felt more called to be in the caretaker role, to be. We call him the house manager now years and years later. So we started that transition and it was really funny. Like, as we were going through that transition in our marriage, I was growing my therapy business here in Portland. So this was like, 2017, 2018, back when you and I first met, actually. And as often happens when you are a healer in a healing profession, like, the clients that come to you are just mirror images of yourself. So I started calling in all of these couples who shared this dynamic where these. In these. In the cis hetero relationships to be clear, like, that the woman was more ambitious and driven and often the primary breadwinner or, like, the sole breadwinner or the primary breadwinner. And the husbands were these, like, slightly softer personalities. Right. People who were kind of more aligned with caregiving roles. So since then, my world, I feel like I am just surrounded by women who are breadwinners. And like you said, I wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t match the actual, like, statistical bell curve of the larger population. But it is the world in which I live, and I have over the years, there’s been a lot of resistance along the way, for sure. But at this point in my journey, I feel so comfortable most of the time being in. In this position. 

00:06:50 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And it has been a journey for you over time. And I know that it’s something that you two really had to work on together as well to figure out what that new version of your relationship looked like. And the bait and switch makes me laugh a little bit. I was thinking about there’s an Ali Wong comedy special, and I can’t remember what it’s called, but her whole premise in the comedy special is that she’s telling the story of meeting her husband and how he was this Yale graduate, and he was gonna make all this money, and she was gonna be kind of like a kept woman. And then by the end of the narrative, it’s, like, reversed, and she’s the one who’s, like, gotten a great TV contract, and she’s making all the money, and he’s not making anything. And she was like, you tricked me kind of thing. Totally. It’s interesting, too, because when I think about the start of my relationship now, marriage, it was the same way. Not as pronounced, probably, but certainly when Rodrigo and I got together, he was working full time in the municipality civil service position, making, like, steady good money. I was still working in agency work, getting paid pittance and, like, a pat on the head for doing the work that I was doing. So when we got together, our ratio of income, which of course I did the math, was about 60% of our household income was from him, and, like, 40 was from me. So we used to split all our bills, 60, 40 on this very complicated spreadsheet, which did not live for very long because it was so ridiculous. But that was like how we started. But as you were talking, it’s interesting because I was reflecting on how I think actually part of me moving into that breadwinner role was marrying somebody who really saw my potential and supported me to kind of grow into this bigger version of myself and has, like, let me take kind of take the wheel in a way of my own life. But also he now works for me, right. And lets me, like, be his boss in this particular capacity as well as other part time work that he does. So I almost feel like we did a little bit of a dance in terms of me actually starting to take up the space that before, I think I wasn’t really claiming, you know, when we first met, I was still starting to acknowledge that, like, maybe I could actually make things happen in this world. And maybe I was not destined to make $45,000 a year working in domestic violence for the rest of my life. 

00:09:10 – Maegan Megginson 

I love that Rodrigo’s such an awesome dude. Jonathan is such an awesome dude. So it really helps to have an awesome dude. Maybe we can say that if that’s your orientation. I feel really similarly that Jonathan has always been my biggest cheerleader. 

00:09:27 – Maegan Megginson 

For me, it was more about, which I think is similar to what you’re saying. Giving myself permission to let myself be the primary breadwinner, right? To let myself be the one who had more ambition. That was not what was modeled for me growing up in my family of origin or in my community. So I didn’t have a lot of models for what it looked like for a female identified person to be the, quote, more powerful partner in the relationship. 

00:09:57 – Maegan Megginson 

The person who kind of carries more of that, like, creation energy. And it did take this, this really intentional renegotiation, both and renegotiation inside of myself around, like, am I going to own that I have this ambition and this potential and this desire to create and to create specifically through a business? Am I going to give myself permission to make more money than my partner? All of that internal renegotiation and then, yeah, the ongoing renegotiation between us of do we feel like this is working? Is our relationship balanced in a way that feels equitable and sustainable for us long term? Does that land for you that bit about, like, how do we create? I think that’s a huge question. And it’s a question that I really learned so much about doing couples therapy with so many couples in this dynamic, which is like, how do we make this reciprocal? How do we make sure that we’re both feeling the labor that we’re putting into this relationship is mutually beneficial? I’m sure we’ll be doing that negotiation for the rest of our lives, but it has become part. Because I. Let me just name this. Personally, I’m curious about it for you two. I. I think my internalized patriarchy can often manifest as feeling resentful for doing more than my partner, even though that’s, like, literally not true. This is a crazy thing to say, but I’m gonna throw it out there. Being in this role has given me more compassion for, like, the 1950s husbands than I ever had before I was in this position, which I know there’s a lot to unpack there, but it’s like, oh, say more. 

00:11:43 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah, it’s a different. It is a different felt experience to hold in your body the pressure to make sure that your family’s mortgage is paid right, and to have that experience of, like, that you’re holding. I feel as the breadwinner that I am holding in my body most of the time, the energy and the emotional capacity that is needed for me to produce the money that we need to survive in this world. 

00:12:11 – Maegan Megginson 

And when the money is flowing, it’s no problem, Man, I feel great, you know, Like, Jonathan could just do nothing, and I would still be, like, so happy and fine. And to be clear, Jonathan both supports me at home. So he is, like, the home manager, right? He is the one doing the laundry and planning the meals and taking our dogs to the vets, and he’s also doing all of the finances of our businesses behind the scenes and some of, like, the HR duties. 

00:12:37 – Maegan Megginson 

So he is like, your partner, supporting the businesses and supporting the home simultaneously. But for me, when the money is flowing in more slowly, like, when the pressure to produce really intensifies, I can notice in myself, like, I start feeling resentful that I feel like I’m carrying more burden than he is, and I have to really catch myself in that and, like, recognize that, like. Hold on a second. This. This resentment isn’t actually about Jonathan and this dynamic that we very clearly negotiated together in our lives. 

00:13:13 – Maegan Megginson 

That’s not what it’s about. This resentment is my body’s way of telling me I need to ask for more support because I’m, like, drowning under the pressure of being the financial provider in this moment. I think that’s where it gets stickiest for me. Being the breadwinner. 

00:13:31 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. When the money’s not flowing, being the breadwinner gets a little more stressful. 

00:13:35 – Maegan Megginson 

It gets a little more stressful. Yeah. 

00:13:36 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And I’m thinking about that for myself too, because, like, it’s a quiet time in the economy. Let’s say things are not booming in the way that they were in our space that you and I occupy. Professionally, money is not flowing as freely as it was a few years ago, and I really feel that. And, yeah, like, sometimes I will notice myself coping with humor. Surprise, surprise, in making statements of, you know, kind of like, and I think this is maybe 1950s working husband of kind of like, I pay for all of this. This is all because of me. That kind of, like, defensive energy where you’re like, oh, it’s fine. I just. Literally every piece of Lego in this house is because of my work. Which actually is not true, to be clear, because Rodrigo does have a job that brings in probably, like, 25 to 30% from a different income source. 

00:14:23 – Maegan Megginson 

Right. But also, it’s just not true. Like, so I. So Jonathan is not generating money. And those moments when I feel that way towards him, it’s also not true because I couldn’t do what I’m doing right now without the support that he’s giving me. And that’s where the 1950s thing comes back into my mind, right? Where I’m both developing more compassion for the grumpy, demanding husband who comes home from work. In his mind, he sees his wife lollygagging around the house, and he feels resentment towards that. And he’s like, wait a minute, I just worked my ass off all day. Like, make me dinner. Like, it’s. He was trying to say, I need to feel the reciprocity. I need to feel like, where are we supporting each other? And on my more resentful days, I can look at Jonathan and be like, wow, must be nice. You just had this, like, super spacious day, and I’m freaking stressed out and feeling, like, the burden of being the financial producer or it can come out sideways sometimes. Like, what you’re saying being like, well, who do you think paid for all of this? And I’m just like, oh, my God, I’ve turned into the house husband who’s like, make me a cocktail woman. But because I am also a woman, and we’ve had the experience of being on both sides of this dynamic, I can also see and appreciate that, like, wait a minute. The labor that he’s contributing to our family, to our relationship is so valuable, and I wouldn’t be able to realize my potential as an ambitious person. Like you were saying. Like that we have these partners who are both cheerleading us and encouraging us to lean into our creative potential. And they are taking care of us in the invisible labor ways that actually allow us to have the energy and bandwidth to do the work that we’re doing. And that’s not money. Like, they’re not putting money in the bank doing that. But he’s putting fuel inside of me so that I can then put more money in the bank. I try to remind myself, like, it’s a whole ecosystem and how are we both contributing to that ecosystem? I do bristle when I hear female breadwinners going into that space. Right. Being like, oh, well, like, I pay for every Lego in this house. It’s like, I do it too. We all fall into it. It just feels to me like, ooh, we’re in pain in those moments. Like, we’re struggling and we’re doing a really bad job asking for the connection and support that we need to move through this challenging moment. 

00:16:50 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And as I think about our two situations as two. Two illustrations of female breadwinning in a hetero relationship, there are some differences between our different situations. Right. So you and Jonathan are in a more extreme, like, the money comes through you. He does do some support in your business though. 

00:17:07 – Maegan Megginson 

Correct. 

00:17:08 – Linzy Bonham 

But yeah, Rodrigo works for me and my business. Halftime. He works as a politician. Halftime. So he’s actually not as much in a supporting role as Jonathan is. 

00:17:19 – Maegan Megginson 

Oh, okay. It’s kind of like. 

00:17:21 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. So it’s like we are both working at home. Right. So it’s like we’re both actually working full time functionally. And also he works a lot of evenings because his job, his second job, demands that he’s at these incredibly long council meetings late into the night. We finish a day of work and then he goes off to another meeting. Thankfully, with his ADD superpowers, he can do that and just like work a 16 hour day and just be like, no, that was a good day. 

00:17:46 – Maegan Megginson 

Honestly, I think he’s a robot. 

00:17:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Is that your theory? That’s my theory. But then I have that man do everything he does. That’s the only plausible explanation. But then I have to, like, solo parent, right? So then I’m like solo parenting into the evening. And I think that we’ve kind of silently contracted that we’re just going to kind of sometimes let our house fall apart around us, and that’s fine. And when I say house falls apart around me, it’s not that bad. But we have deprioritized certain things. There’s just Certain things that aren’t going to happen because we’re both in a full time working role and I’m holding more of the financial responsibility for our household. And we have a kiddo who he’s just always there every day. He’s just so weird. I know. Take a kid, get out of here. So I do find Rodrigo and I kind of take turns being more in that almost like domestically supportive role of being like, oh, hey, I made you a sandwich or like bring you a drink or whatever. But sometimes both of us are just like head down doing work. It’s just that the work that I’m doing has a much larger financial impact for our house. And something that he’s expressed to me many times is like, he’ll say something to the effect of like, I’m so glad that like you can make money so I can just like engage in my hobby. Because being a part time politicking is his hobby. Yeah, right. It pays so little for the like, magnitude of responsibility and like the hate mail that he has to contend with. And like we got like hate on Reddit and had to get security cameras because people think that like politicians are fat cats. I’m like, I wish. Yeah, truly, for the amount of headache you get. So it’s like he does this very hard, very demanding work, but it doesn’t financially compensate him. But it’s very much his vocation, it’s his passion. Right. And so we kind of have this contract between us that thankfully my passion allows us to pay our bills. He will continue to engage in that passion being a city councilor for as long as he possibly can, till retirement if he can. But he will never be well compensated for that work. So there’s still a lot of work going out from him into the world, not into our household. But the compensation doesn’t come back. The reward he gets financially is definitely not commiserate with the work. 

00:19:49 – Maegan Megginson 

I have two questions for you, please. Well, one’s a reflection and one’s a question. The reflection is really appreciate the way you support his air quotes hobby. Because I feel like it is so easy for primary breadwinners, regardless of gender identification, to project judgment onto the partner who’s doing something that doesn’t earn money. And that’s just a byproduct of living in late stage capitalism. We have internalized that we should value the money producing activities more than the things that don’t make money. And I really appreciate anytime you see someone modeling, I so deeply value what my partner does with their time, even if it doesn’t put money in the bank. And like Jonathan is, he’s a philosopher. He is constantly reading philosophy, studying philosophy. And he’s a very unlike Rodrigo who goes out into the world. Jonathan is a very solitary person. But what he does is like, he is able to bring to me and to my life and to my work so much richness and thoughts and ideas. And when I am puzzling out really big systemic questions, questions and philosophical questions in my work, he’s able to add so much richness and nuance to that work and to my just lived experience in the world. And I value so much what he does with his time. But I see all the time, I see people, primary breadwinners, who really don’t value or respect the things that their partners are doing with their time. And I think that is just a really sticky spot. And no good comes when you don’t respect what the other people in your household care about and do with their time. So that’s a very long winded. Oh, I’m not meeting the brief. Supposed to be brief. The brief is to be brief. That’s cute. I love how you support Rodrigo and how you really champion him. And my question is, do you guys negotiate the household labor? Do you have explicit conversations about what you’re each gonna carry or you really just let it flow organically? 

00:22:02 – Linzy Bonham 

We let it flow. And that’s an interesting thing about us as a couple is I think that we both just. If we see something that needs to be done, we do it. So there are certain places where we naturally kind of divide. Like he. He pays more attention to the laundry. So he does laundry more. But I do laundry sometimes. But he’s just more attuned. When the laundry hamper’s full, he’ll throw it in. Dishes, he tends to do more. Cause he stays up very late at night watching movies. Cause he needs almost no sleep. Your robot feed ro might hold some water, but he doesn’t always. Like last night, he stayed up late and he didn’t do dishes. He was, you know, playing a video game instead. So later, probably after a recording, when I go to make my lunch, I’ll do some dishes at that time. So we’re both very project oriented people. Where we see a project, we do the project. So far, I think it works fairly well in that we both have fairly equal energy that we contribute to the household. And each of us just kinds of spots. A problem solves the problem. Spots a problem solves the problem. But I will also say we have brought in external help. So we have a cleaner who comes twice a month. Right. And like, every time she comes, we’re like, we’re in love with her. This is amazing. Right. So she certainly is kind of keeping our home at a much nicer level of cleanliness than we would achieve on our own. And also we have a family member who folds our laundry every week, which there’s like multiple layers in that relationship and the decision to have that happen. But that also takes a couple of the big domestic tasks off of both of our plates, which allows us to have more time to do the things that we really love to do, which is not actually cleaning and folding laundry. 

00:23:29 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. And it reminds me, I mean, it’s been a while since I lived this life, but back when we were both employed and we had two incomes coming in, yeah, we had someone coming in to clean our house every week. We had someone coming to walk the dogs. We don’t need that now. But I do feel like it was so necessary at the time for us to be able to stay connected and sort of in flow with each other in our relationship. But I know many people can’t afford that. And I also know that a lot of people just deeply resist it, Paying for support in these, like, domestic ways. Especially when the breadwinner is carrying the belief that the partner who’s making less money, like, well, you’re making less money, so you should be doing more of this. You should be cleaning the house more. 

00:24:18 – Linzy Bonham 

It’s. 

00:24:19 – Maegan Megginson 

It’s just like there’s so like you’re saying there’s so many layers and it gets. It can get so sticky. But I love the way that you and Rodrigo are able to sort of organically negotiate day to day. We’re not like, Jonathan and I aren’t like that. So we, in our friendship, we laugh that you’re doers, you’re project people. Jonathan and I, we’re not project people. Like, I. I have to stop pretending like we’re project people. We’re sit and have big thought people with a cup of tea, you know, like, I could spend hours just sitting right here staring out the window. There’s like so many things that need to be done and I’m like, I’m just going to sit here and have my thoughts, and that’s what’s happening today. And we’re both like that. So, like, we have to. We have to have really clear negotiation with each other about, okay, dude, here. So we’re dealing. We’re dealing with huge house issue right now. My basement, our basement flooded last month. And to finished basement. My. My office was downstairs. 

00:25:19 – Linzy Bonham 

Just. 

00:25:19 – Maegan Megginson 

It’s a disaster. It’s a very expensive disaster. And the doer in me wanted to, like, jump in and, like, be in control of getting it fixed. But I could not do that and continue being the breadwinner because, hey, here’s a moment where resentment can really show up. As the breadwinner, we’re like, all of a sudden, we’re going to need tens of thousands of dollars to fix this thing. That it happened totally unexpectedly. And I’m carrying, as the business owner, as the breadwinner, like, I am carrying the responsibility for bringing in that money. And I figured out really quickly I was. I cannot hold the responsibility for making this extra money that we need and be, like, the project manager. Because I’m just trauma responding to the situation and taking action and being controlling. At the same time. I really have to intentionally hand this over to my partner and very intentionally step back because I was getting activated into taking action, which is my. It’s my trauma stuff. So that’s just been, like. It’s a very recent example of where he and I have to sit down. And we do have to very clearly say, okay, while we’re in this chaotic season in our home, are you going to be doing the dishes? Are you doing the laundry? Can I expect that my clothes are going to be clean on this day? And, like, how can I support you in, like, project managing this thing? And so just as an example, like, we do have to get really specific about that or things will fall through the cracks while we’re sitting and having our big thoughts. And that’s something where we’ll probably always be learning how to do together. Because it doesn’t come naturally to us. 

00:26:58 – Linzy Bonham 

No, no. You. You’ve had to develop a system and a process to manage those things actively. Because. Yeah. When you’re describing sitting, having big thoughts, like, I think about when I sit on the front porch sometimes I’ll, like, sit and look at the birds and, like, na, na, na. And then I’ll, like, look and be like, I really need to paint that thing. Oh, the door’s not done. And suddenly I’m, like, doing a project. 

00:27:17 – Maegan Megginson 

Love that for you. 

00:27:17 – Linzy Bonham 

And it’s not that I completely cannot relax. Cause in other circumstances, it’s, like, relaxing for you. It is. 

00:27:24 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. 

00:27:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Like, I do have, like, a generative part of me that just looks to be creating. So, yeah. It is funny because I’m thinking about, you know, how long you and I could, like, sit in that same circumstance and not get up and do something, you would beat me big time before I’m up and moving. 

00:27:39 – Maegan Megginson 

And I think this is the most important part of the breadwinner conversation. I think when we’re thinking in terms of our families, it’s like really, how do we create space in our families and our primary relationships to be so radically honest about who we are at our core? Who is the essence of who I am? Because the more honest I can be with myself and with my partner and the more honest he can be with me about who he is, the easier it becomes for us to navigate our relationship and to like co create a life together where we both get to be supported and doing what feels really right and aligned while also making sure that we’re like dotting our I’s and crossing our t’s and making sure life happens. I think that’s been the biggest lesson for me in becoming the breadwinner in our family is like it’s all about me owning who I am and letting him own who he is and celebrating both of those things. 

00:28:39 – Linzy Bonham 

And I think what you and I have been talking about are maybe I think you and I are like authentically breadwinners. We’re just the term. A couple of my group practice course students have used recently described me as boss bitches. You and I are the boss bitches. And we have that energy in us, right? And my mom too. I remember my mom saying once that she read Men are from Mars, women are from Venus and she was like, I think it might be a man. Because like my parents dynamic too. Despite my dad also having a career, my mom is the more driven, focused, like output oriented one of the two of them. But I’m also thinking about therapists that I’ve known and worked with in money skills for therapists or money skills group practice owners over the years where it might not be so much of like an authentic arrangement. And so this is where I’m thinking and I want to play a little bit with the idea of when is breadwinning actually like over functioning and like carrying a household in an arrangement that’s not actually sustainable or authentic or like good for both partners. Because I’m thinking about therapists I’ve known over the years where like they’re the one who has like a full time private practice, but they’re still very much the primary parent who’s also going to like run the kid to soccer practice and take them to the doctor and do all these things. And they’re also the one holding down the household. So they’re functioning at, like, a 9, and they have a partner who functions at, like, a 3 who’s maybe, like, has addiction issues or depression or just seems like he just can’t get his start in life. Or sometimes she can’t get their start in life, because I’ve seen this, too, in queer relationship. What are your thoughts on that? Is that a different scenario? Or is it that the breadwinner needs to, like, accept the things that they’re gross? Tell me how you would, like, distinguish. 

00:30:14 – Maegan Megginson 

How do you say that? 

00:30:15 – Linzy Bonham 

I’m just saying, because earlier you were saying, like, you know, it’s kind of like our work to do as breadwinners, to, like, recognize. Recognize the contributions of our partner. But I’m like, yeah, yeah, but can we always assume that they are actually contributing at an equitable level? 

00:30:26 – Maegan Megginson 

Right. Thanks for. Yeah, thanks for weaving that in lens. It’s like, I think it’s two very different conversations. What you and I are talking about is a fully consensual agreement that we have made intentionally with our partners. So even if you and Rodrigo haven’t, you don’t negotiate who does the dishes. You have negotiated that. You are creating the business and he is doing the politicking, and the money’s going to come from the business, and he supports you in realizing your vision and. And putting gas in your ambition and cheering you on. And, like, that is an explicit negotiation. And I think when two people have explicitly negotiated, here’s who’s going to make the money, and here’s what the other person’s going to be doing. That’s healthy, right? That’s strong. That’s solid. That is fortunately, the position that you and I are in. And then there’s this totally other scenario that you’re describing, which I saw all the time in my couples therapy practice, which is, yeah, this over functioning. I don’t even. I’m not even hesitant to call it over functioning because often it’s just surviving in those dynamics. Right? It’s just like, okay, so there’s one partner who is really struggling or not contributing in any way. They’re not contributing financially. They’re not contributing labor, they’re not contributing childcare. They’re not contributing household management. They’re not contributing sexually, they’re not contributing energetically. Like, they’re just not contributing for whatever reason. And then the other partner is often like, I don’t have any choice. One of us has to take care of the kids. Right? One of us has to make money. I guess it will be me. So I would call that a non consensual division of labor because you have not actually consented intentionally with each other to this being the scenario. So, I mean, the short answer is get yourself into couples therapy. This is so systemically complicated, it is not helpful at all for you, as the person who is currently the breadwinner, to continue, like holding this mantle of it’s all on me. Well, then what can you do to really make it clear that it is not sustainable, that you are not consenting to it all being on you? This now is a relationship problem, not a breadwinner contribution problem. Yeah. 

00:32:51 – Linzy Bonham 

And it makes me think about folks I’ve known over the years who have like gotten separated and made statements, something to the effect of, it’s actually easier for me to solo parent my children because now I have like one less child to take care of. 

00:33:02 – Maegan Megginson 

Totally. 

00:33:03 – Linzy Bonham 

I’ve heard so many people say that in different language, but like the relief that comes when you have been that, call it over functioning, call it surviving. Like that person who’s having to do everything to at least be able to do it just on your own terms now and not also negotiating with somebody who’s basically running interference. Yeah. And that’s a distinctly different situation. 

00:33:23 – Maegan Megginson 

So different. 

00:33:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. 

00:33:25 – Maegan Megginson 

But I do think that, like, if you’re listening to this and you’re. And you feel like you’re in that category, you do still have the space, you can create the space inside of yourself to do a little exploration if the relationship felt equitable. Am I naturally a person who carries ambition and creativity in my body in this way? Because I also, I’ve seen like situations where that person divorces, gets into another relationship, and it’s like it becomes clear when they’re in a healthier system in their life, it becomes clear if they do have that bone in their body and they did want to be the breadwinner and now they get to do it in a healthier way. Or it becomes clear that they’re like, yeah, actually, that’s not my role. And I did it because we needed to survive. But now that I don’t have to do it anymore, I’m going to choose to show up in my life and in my family in a very different way. I think that’s always really interesting to witness. 

00:34:21 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Because it could be an adaptive role that you take on because you’re like, well, somebody has to do everything, so that’s going to be who I am. And it’s interesting as you say that, because I think about relationships that I’ve been In the past, I’m thinking about one specific longer term relationship that I was in where I probably still would have turned out to be the same person. You know, I still would be a very ambitious, driven person who’s doing a lot, but that person wasn’t able to function kind of like even a day to day level sometimes. So it’s like I would still probably be kind of doing my thing, but the relationship would look extremely different if I was kind of having to carry somebody. As you say, like financially, energetically, like domestically, sexually. Like, if I’m having to try to make everything in our relationship work right, that would have been a very, very different lived experience than the relationship that I’m in now, even though I’m. I’m the same person. 

00:35:07 – Maegan Megginson 

Oh, that’s so true, Linz. And I can think of times in my relationship with Jonathan where the balance has gotten off between us, especially in the early days when we were really first negotiating this transition, that if I had to really learn what needs relationally, I needed him to prioritize for me to keep my bucket full. And for me, I really need acknowledgement. I need a lot of acknowledgement. It’s like one of my love languages, if you will, from him. Like, I need acknowledgement that I had a long work day, that I’m seeing a lot of clients right now, that I’m carrying a lot of financial pressure. I need that verbal affirmation that I see what you’re carrying and I appreciate it. And when he can pair that with trying to anticipate my needs, in some ways, when he’s like, here’s a sandwich. And I didn’t even realize it was lunchtime. 

00:36:01 – Linzy Bonham 

He always brings you sandwiches. I’m so jealous. 

00:36:03 – Maegan Megginson 

I love sandwiches. Yeah, it’s great. It, like, it really, it. It makes me feel just when he’s showing up for me in those ways, and those are things I’ve had to figure out. To be clear, there are things I’ve had to explicitly ask for when he shows up. I carry almost no resentment that I’m the one who’s like, quote, doing the work to make the money. I can do it. I can do. I can move through the hard seasons. I can go through the pressure if I feel like my partner is supporting me in the way I need to be supported. Yeah. So I think I just wanted to name that, that you need different things from Rodrigo than I need from Jonathan. But part of this process of learning to hold this ambition in a way that also feels relationally really healthy and balanced is for us to take individual responsibility for getting clear on what it is we need from our partner. I don’t need you to make the money, but I do need you to do X, Y and Z so that I feel like there’s a beautiful reciprocity in our relationship. And I know that and you know that because we’ve had times in other relationships or this relationship where that reciprocity hasn’t been there in the right ratio. And then all of a sudden you’re like, I can do this, but I don’t want to do this. 

00:37:19 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:37:19 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. It’s nuance. 

00:37:20 – Linzy Bonham 

Resentment is always a clue, right? I think resentment is always a clue that something is out of balance and. 

00:37:25 – Maegan Megginson 

That I pay for all these Legos. Yeah, that’s your red flag. I pay for these red flags. I’m mad at you, like, stomping around your house and it’s like, okay, what’s out of balance here? What’s out of balance? 

00:37:39 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. And let’s begin stomping around, stepping on Legos that are everywhere. Just. That’s also part of the picture. 

00:37:45 – Maegan Megginson 

Right? 

00:37:46 – Linzy Bonham 

Maegan, this has been really fun. Thank you for coming to explore breadwinning with me. This is something. I feel like we should have talked about this topic years ago because it’s always been a shared experience we have. And I just see it so much in therapists who come into money skills for therapists. And again, it’s like, am I calling these folks in? Probably, maybe. But also, I do think that it’s probably quite common in the therapist helper, healer space. 

00:38:09 – Maegan Megginson 

I think so. 

00:38:10 – Linzy Bonham 

Because we tend to be high functioning people who just, you know, want to take care of all the things. 

00:38:13 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. Yeah. And good for us. It’s really fun. Like, when you get that balance right and you feel supported in the right ways. Having the agency and the autonomy and the power to create businesses and lives that we want is so. It’s such a gift. It’s such a gift to. To be in this position. So I’m really excited for more people who are in this space to find you and to find money skills and to strengthen those money muscles so that we can feel even more empowered and being women in the world who are doing really incredible work through our businesses. 

00:38:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Amen to that. Maegan Megginson. For folks who are listening and they want to get further into your world and why would they not? Pretty awesome find you. 

00:38:58 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah, well, you can. Since you’re already listening to a podcast, pop over to the deeply rested podcast and pick an episode, Give it a listen see what you think. If you like it, listen to some more, Join the newsletter. Truly do whatever you want. You can also just visit my website@deeply rested.com Beautiful. 

00:39:20 – Linzy Bonham 

Thank you Maegan. 

00:39:21 – Maegan Megginson 

Thanks Linzy. 

00:39:26 – Linzy Bonham 

One piece that really sticks out out for me in this conversation with Maegan is that there is a big difference between the kind of situations that Maegan and I are in where we are just authentically motivated, ambitious humans who kind of would be no matter what, no matter what circumstances, and that kind of situation where you have negotiated with your partner or you’ve both fallen into comfortable natural roles around woman. Being a breadwinner in a hetero relationship is very different than situations that I’ve seen so many therapists in over the years, in many skills for therapists where they are the breadwinner not by choice and would not choose to be that way and are also carrying other aspects of the family. 

00:40:11 – Linzy Bonham 

So there’s a big difference between those negotiated, balanced relationships where there’s communication around money and tasks and how contributions to the relationship are valued. Big difference between that kind of situation and the situation where one partner is really just carrying the family in every possible sense. And for folks who are in that latter kind of situation, it really helps to name and notice that that is what is happening for you. Obviously there’s going to be so much there in terms of complexity of digging into that with your partner, with the people around you, you seeing how that situation can be improved. And I’ve seen folks in that situation for all sorts of reasons, whether a partner has, you know, mental health issues, addictions issues, has lost a job and just has struggled to find something else, but hasn’t necessarily stepped up in other ways within the family. 

00:41:01 – Linzy Bonham 

But I think like so many things, having clear communication in your partnership around contributions and how money is one kind of contribution to a relationship, but all the other labor and all the other tasks that both partners do are also contributions to the relationship. And making sure that you’re both feeling appreciated and that it’s balanced is important. And then also if it’s not a tenable situation for you having those conversations on what needs to change and what needs to improve, and not letting yourself stay in a situation that is absolutely, absolutely sucking you dry forever and ever more so lots to this topic. 

00:41:39 – Linzy Bonham 

So appreciate Maegan coming in and talking about it today. And I will say that becoming the breadwinner is one of the common themes I tend to see amongst students in Money Skills for Therapists. There’s several themes I’ve observed over the last few years of folks who tend to come into the course. And being the main breadwinner in the family is one of those themes. I think one of the reasons, of course, is that when you become the maid breadwinner in your family, especially if you weren’t before, suddenly you need to learn skills. 

00:42:08 – Linzy Bonham 

And sometimes that’s you’re the breadwinner in a partnership, sometimes it’s that you have become the solo earner in your household because of separation or the loss of a spouse and suddenly it’s all on you. And I know for me that was part of my impetus to learn skills when I had to become the breadwinner. That’s when I actually had to learn how to really make money work. And I see that being the case for so many other folks. 

00:42:27 – Linzy Bonham 

So just know that their skills are learnable. You can figure out how to do this and I so appreciate you joining Maegan and I for this conversation today. I am Linzy Bonham, therapist turned Money Coach and I’m the creator of many skills for therapists. If you are ready to get my support in going from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, then my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. 

00:42:49 – Linzy Bonham 

You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register today using the link in the show Notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned Money Coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you.