[00:00:00] Amber: People with ADHD don’t love structure, but we absolutely need it, which is why people like me who were so successful in the corporate world, why we also feel like what’s wrong with me, because the corporate world had this structure and then you go and start your own business and you can’t possibly do everything like you have to prioritize. So I think number one it’s not having this rigid schedule.
[00:00:23] Linzy: It’s really understanding your energy. Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Lindsay Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.
[00:00:50] Linzy: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Amber Hawley. Amber is a therapist turned consultant who supports entrepreneurs with what she calls neurospicy brains, so ADD particularly is what we get into today. Her business is called The Easily Distracted Entrepreneur, which I love. Such a good title.
[00:01:13] Linzy: Today we talk about ADD and the wave of women being diagnosed with ADD in their 30s and 40s and 50s, and why that has happened. Amber talks a little bit about the different types of ADD, and why it can be missed, and so often was missed in women of a certain age, my age and her age. We also talk about how ADD impacts your ability to do entrepreneurship, to manage money, how ADD and money particularly intersect, and then how you can set yourself up as somebody with ADD, or who is otherwise neurospicy, to succeed in your business, and to just generally allow yourself the success you need to sleep at night, right?
[00:01:44] Linzy: How do you actually get shit done when you have ADD or a neurospicy brain? Here is my conversation with Amber Hawley.
[00:02:18] Linzy: Amber, welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:22] Amber: Thank you for having me.
[00:02:23] Linzy: I am very excited to have you. because we were just chatting off mic about how I’ve noticed both in my course, in the therapists who take money skills for therapists and money skills to group practice owners, but also in my own friends, people around me, specifically women around me, I’m noticing there is this wave of women being diagnosed with ADHD in their like 30s and 40s.
[00:02:48] Linzy: They’re often already successful professionals, they’re probably therapists and health practitioners if they’re in my course. and they’re just now learning that their brain fits an ADHD diagnosis and it seems to me like this, it’s something happening in the culture. Like it’s a big deal
[00:03:04] Amber: and I’m curious about your observations, your thoughts on this, on people being diagnosed so late in life with ADHD. Yes, Well, and I’m one of those people. I got diagnosed at 40 and yeah, I mean, I work with ADHD coaching as well as my main business serving entrepreneurs who are neuro spicy, as I like to say. I have people who are in their sixties that I’ve just found out, and so it is this thing.
[00:03:31] Amber: And why we’re seeing that is one, the way that everybody’s ADHD shows up is different, right? So I actually studied with Dr. Amon and he talks about there being seven types of ADD, ADHD, same, you know, like we just changed the lettering for the new DSM. But he talks about the seven types, and when you really look at it that way, you understand like it shows up different,
[00:03:55] Amber: and what tends to happen in school is that girls are more of like the, they would say like the dreamer, spacey, super talkative type, and they don’t usually like act out as much. And so, there’s a lot that goes into that, of course. And so it’s the boys that are acting out that are getting diagnosed, and so girls are often missed.
[00:04:17] Amber: Right? And so what’s happening is we’re seeing women in their thirties and forties. Usually either they have kids and then their kid gets diagnosed and they’re like, oh my gosh, like that’s me. You know? Or like in my instance, I was in extreme burnout, and I had three kids in four and a half years.
[00:04:37] Amber: I was running a group therapy practice, and, you know, I’d been very successful in my career. I was a dot-commer before becoming a therapist. And I think with all the hormonal shifts as well, like all of a sudden all my coping mechanisms stopped working.
[00:04:51] Amber: And then actually I met a friend who was also a fellow therapist, Dr. Melissa McCaffrey. And she went and she got diagnosed after going to couples therapy, and then she said to me, I think you might have ADHD. So I was like, Oh, I better go get this checked out.
[00:05:08] Linzy: Right, so you had done all of these things in your life, like, all this success not knowing. Right, and it was just like a friend who reflected to you that prompted you to get diagnosed.
[00:05:19] Amber: I mean, it was. Yeah, exactly. Luckily she had this amazing couples therapist. Because we see the statistics that most couples will go to, I believe it’s six different therapists before the undiagnosed person, in both men and women, it doesn’t matter…will get the understanding, and they’ll understand what’s happening with them and they get the diagnosis.
[00:05:35] Amber: So luckily she had somebody who was like spot on. And then of course, once I mentioned it, all of my friends are like, well, duh? And I’m like, well, what do you mean? Duh?
[00:05:49] Amber: Like, why… Who never told me all of this? I have all these therapists, friends, and no one said anything.
[00:05:56] Linzy: Well, and that’s a funny thing. Sometimes it’s just having someone who comes into your world who has the awareness or it’s on their own mind at that time. Like when I met my partner now spouse, I was like, well, and you have ADD, right? And he was like, what do you mean? What are you talking about?
[00:06:10] Linzy: And I was like, uh… But, as you say, there’s different types of ADD, but in my mind, this is certainly an ADD trait. So he went and took three different tests in one day, cause why wouldn’t you? I think one of them was just a self diagnosis thing on the internet, but he got like 95 out of a hundred.
[00:06:27] Linzy: It was like, huh, maybe! But same thing with him where his co worker was like, yeah, duh, of course you do. And she used to call him Two Feet because she would say he would jump into everything two feet first. Like he has this very…when he’s in something, he’s in something and it’s a joke between the two of us because I’m a very kind of moderate, balanced person, and he’s always like to the max.
[00:06:46] Linzy: And between the two of us, there’s some sort of balance. He overdoes things. Between us, we’re a reasonable human. We’re a good pair. Right?
[00:06:54] Amber: Exactly.
[00:06:57] Linzy: But it is similar to what you were saying; his coworker was like, of course you are.
[00:07:00] Linzy: I know that about you, but nobody had ever mentioned it to him until I mentioned it. And partially why I mentioned it is, as I was joking to you beforehand, I’m always surrounded by folks who would fit into that ADD category, and in fact, I probably have never dated a man who wouldn’t be ADD diagnosable, which is interesting.
[00:07:19] Linzy: So, yeah, so I think that, you know, there’s an energy there for me, obviously, that is a good complement to my nervous system and my personality. but it’s almost like a joke, if you’re dating me, you probably have to have ADHD.
[00:07:30] Amber: I am married now, so less people will get this test administered, but yeah, it’s a funny thing because, what you’re mentioning, too, really brings me back to remembering my own family’s experience with ADD because just like you described, when my brother was diagnosed with ADD in the second grade, which would have been in the 90s then my dad was like, oh, that’s my whole life, right?
[00:07:51] Linzy: And he would have been in his 40s. Right? But what we’re seeing now I think is this other wave of women, as you say, because in women it often presents differently. So tell me a little bit more about these seven types of ADD. I’m not familiar with this. What are some of the different ways that ADD can look that often mean that women get missed?
[00:08:09] Linzy: Yeah, and like you’re saying with your husband and your dad, men do get missed, too. Typically though, of the seven types, there’s one that’s called a classic ADD. And the reason he uses ADD and some other experts do as well as, because most people either grow out of, or don’t have the hyperactivity.
[00:08:29] Amber: So it’s like, attention deficit hyperactive disorder with or without hyperactivity, which is so double negative or something. I don’t know. It’s so ridiculous, but… So usually it’s the classic ADHD kids who get the diagnosis.
[00:08:43] Amber: And so for women, yes, it can show up very differently. What we see is like that inattentiveness. So that’s kind of that dreamer who’s off daydreaming about other things or in another world, or, you know, as I say, easily distracted, right? Like so many of us are. My particular combination is like three different types and one of them is called over-focused where I actually might have a little OCPD, I mean, I probably fall into that camp.
[00:09:00] Amber: And that’s actually probably one of the reasons why I wouldn’t have got diagnosed because I had developed these obsessive ways of managing things like lists and just being overly organized.
[00:09:22] Amber: So weirdly, right, because most people with ADHD struggle with organization. They struggle with that… And now I want to be honest that everything will be obsessively organized, labeled, color coded everything and then I will have like a room or a closet or a big giant pile that is just like a shit show. There’s always going to be that thing, you know, because the executive functioning is a struggle.
[00:09:45] Amber: And I’m not saying men don’t do this, but we see it a lot more with women developing these coping mechanisms that actually allow them to function. And so we would, you know, call that masking, of course, but it is this way of coping and over functioning. Then there’s another one called temporal lobe and there’s a high association with head injuries.
[00:10:05] Amber: There can be a lot of angry outburst stuff. There’s another one called limbic. Then there’s anxious and then there’s one called “ring of fire.” Which, you know, I feel like you can kind of probably… that’s that high emotionality, right? Like that, which is something we have with…
[00:10:21] Linzy: I was like, is that the one where you really like Johnny Cash? Nope. Nope. That’s not it. Okay. Okay. High emotionality.
[00:10:26] Amber: It’s where you go down in a ring of fire at all times. You melt down, you know? You know, and again, we have that hyper emotionality where the emotional regulation is more difficult. Right? So you can have a combination. You can have one; you could have a combination.
[00:10:41] Amber: I too married a guy with ADHD and he is classic. But he was born in 65. So when he grew up and they gave him, I think it was probably Ritalin or something… As soon as he took it, he was kind of like slow, and just like spacey and like lethargic and his mother like freaked out and flushed all the pills down the toilet and that was the end of that.
[00:11:00] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, Ritalin also did not last long in our household. My brother was prescribed it in second grade. That was kind of what was out there at that time and he just lost his appetite, didn’t feel like himself, like it basically kind of put him into a depressive coma, something like that.
[00:11:15] Amber: Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:16] Linzy: Yeah, it also did not last long, and he and my father have found other ways to manage their ADHD. Although I will say, ADD, it seems to me like the drugs are getting better. Is that true?
[00:11:27] Linzy: Yeah, that’s my impression.
[00:11:29] Amber: And the thing is, like we know with psychotropic medication, it’s very much that individual, like how our biology responds to things. So, yeah, I personally take, for my ADHD, I take Welbutrin, because what we have found is that a certain level of Welbutrin is actually helping with a lot of the ADHD symptoms.
[00:11:52] Amber: And also if you have like the anxious or the limbic type of ADD, addressing those underlying mood disorders that can be there.
[00:12:01] Amber: That’s also part of it, but it really is separate from that, where it does give a little bit of that boost and that focus so that our brain can actually focus on something.
[00:12:11] Linzy: And I do see that overlap a lot. If I think about it, I would say my partner’s style of ADD is ADD without anxiety or depression. There’s things that have to be done around focus, but he can also hyper focus.
[00:12:22] Linzy: This is a great example. Two weekends ago, he was working on a Facebook ads course for our business and, he’s had the Facebook ads course for maybe nine months but there was like, kind of no reason to do it cause it’s one of the things that he could always do at any time, and there was no emergency, but then it was announced that the course was closing down.
[00:12:31] Linzy: So then he had a deadline and Amber, he worked on that course for, from 9am on a Saturday morning till 5am the next morning.
[00:12:50] Linzy: He did a 20 hour work set.
[00:12:54] Amber: Yep.
[00:12:54] Linzy: Going through this course material and classifying all of our ads and filling out these spreadsheets and… We’re a spreadsheet couple; we both love spreadsheets. But I would not actually be able to do that. Like that is not in me. I do not have that cognitive capacity.
[00:13:08] Amber: Exactly, There are so many challenges because let’s face it, ADD is a disability. It is a real, real challenge. So when people, you know, will sometimes say everyone has ADD, I’m like, no. And I was like, no. Everyone’s easily distracted. Everyone’s a little overwhelmed and overcommitted, but it’s a very different thing.
[00:13:27] Amber: But then we have these saving graces, like that ability to hyper focus. Because that’s how… Like, I remember a teacher saying in college that the difference between the D or F student and the A student is that A student was willing to pull the all-nighter and I was like, hello, that’s me. That’s the only reason that I did so well.
[00:13:46] Amber: One is that I’m a great test taker, but two is I would just stay up the whole night before because there was a deadline, right? We need something that forces us into that focus.
[00:13:57] Linzy: Totally. And this is a constant thing that I am finding, as a partner of somebody with ADD is like, how do I give deadlines? As a partner of somebody who works with him, because he works in our business… Yeah, because it does seem like that urgency is so important. Let’s think then about ADHD and money, right?
[00:14:14] Linzy: Because as I said, I have lots of folks coming into Money skills for Therapists who are getting these diagnoses or just recently had, you know, a diagnosis of ADD, and money is a real struggle point for them. So how do you see ADD impacting folks’ abilities or relationship with finances and money?
[00:14:30] Amber: Yeah, and I will say, I see that as well. So, I used to have a group practice. I sold it last year. My main focus is really now serving mostly entrepreneurs, but also like corporate executives who are neurospicy. So there’s a blend of things. But what I see, because I help people a lot with systems and like operations and, you know, being able, I like to say, get shit done. So many people who are coming in are neurospicy mostly, and they’re even business owners who don’t even have budgets. They don’t have any clue, like how much they’re actually spending each month, how much they’re actually bringing in each month.
[00:15:09] Amber: Right? So there’s this chaos there, which then perpetuates, like, I don’t want to look at that because that’s overwhelming. Right, so when we feel overwhelmed, when something doesn’t feel like it’s in our wheelhouse, we can be really avoidant because, as you know, money is not just a numbers thing. Like I’m fantastic with numbers and I love spreadsheets.
[00:15:27] Amber: It’s an emotional thing and so when you add in the emotions, and then you add in certain traits in ADHD, and not everybody has this because I know people with ADHD who are like very, I don’t want to say rigid isn’t the right word, but they’re very on top of that stuff, but there’s quite a lot of us who are like very impulsive or when we’re feeling emotional, like we’ll spend something.
[00:15:50] Amber: I’ve, I jokingly say like, I think I’ve bought every course that’s ever been put out in the business world, I would go through things where if I just, you know, was having that a down day, because that’s just part of entrepreneurship, or I was just feeling really stressed out,
[00:16:05] Amber: I would buy something, like I would buy the solution, the quick fix, the whatever. And then I would never look at it. Because I bought it, it gave me that moment of relief, and then I moved on, and then I had to start my day and do my thing. Right. So yeah, there’s a lot of that. There’s a lot of that impulsivity.
[00:16:22] Amber: There’s a lot of being in such a frenzied place where you feel so overwhelmed that you’re just kind of grabbing on for things and solutions that maybe aren’t the right fix or even the right thing to be doing.
[00:16:35] Linzy: So that impulsivity then leading to spending that we could say is maybe not strategic spending. It seems like an effort to kind of quell some chaos for a moment, and it also does make me think about the talk about dopamine seeking with ADD where it’s like, you sought something, you did it, you made it happen.
[00:16:52] Linzy: That feels good in itself. But was it actually the thing you needed? Are you actually going to do it? Those are questions that remain to be seen.
[00:16:59] Amber: Well, exactly. And that’s the thing, right? Like, that’s why the impulsivity around shopping, because it does give you the dopamine, it feels good. It feels exciting. And frankly, you know, like my big places around courses, like knowledge, I love, like I’m constantly buying books or courses. I actually had to have a little intervention with myself and I was like, okay, you’re not allowed to buy a course now for a couple months. I had to stop myself because It wasn’t intentional, right? And I’m all about being more intentional in things but sometimes you’re like, I just want something shiny pretty.
[00:17:27] Amber: I like luxurious things. I like luxurious experiences and I want to do those things, but then we sabotage ourselves because what I see so many people doing, and especially therapists, is whittling away our money.
[00:17:40] Amber: So there’s no intentionality. So we think we can’t have the thing we want because we’ve been frittering it away on all these things that we don’t really care about.
[00:17:48] Linzy: Absolutely, yeah, every dollar that goes somewhere can’t go somewhere else. Yeah. And that lack of intentionality… Because if I think about words like intentionality, which, you know, that’s one of my favorite words,
[00:17:59] Linzy: It does require a stopping, a slowing down, a being with. Also, it requires sometimes a tolerance of uncomfortable emotions.
[00:18:09] Linzy: Right? It’s like, I really want this thing but what is that about? Like, am I comparing myself to somebody else? Is there some “compare and despair” going on here? Is there some magical thinking? Right? Am I just feeling really anxious and uncomfortable, and so I’m trying to see myself take action? What it takes to slow down and do that is a fair amount of being able to like pump the brakes, right?
[00:18:29] Amber: And kind of down regulate your nervous system and that, that can be a hard thing to do. It’s extremely hard. And when you’re neurodivergent, it almost can feel impossible because it feels like everything is urgent, everything is important. I almost think of like a whirling dervish where, we’re, they’re in this like cyclone of chaos there that is going on.
[00:18:50] Amber: To even imagine, to stop and take that step back, it feels impossible. And even though logically we know that, sometimes I’m saying, hey, for the next hour, let’s do this… I do annual, quarterly, monthly, and weekly planning with the people in my incubator course, and we’re taking that small step back, and it has a huge impact on so much.
[00:19:15] Amber: Cause you’re saying, it gives you clarity. And honestly, that’s where that effectiveness comes in, having that clarity. You have to be willing to do that. For some people, unless they have somebody supporting them to do that, it just feels impossible and I do understand that.
[00:19:29] Amber: I mean, I’ve been in those places where I feel so overwhelmed. I’m like, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t. I’m just trying to get it all done, but the reality is, it’s like you said, you have to bring it down. You have to slow everything down, and you’re like, okay, this is just one hour. You know, you can go off into chaos after that, if you need to, But we know the magic is they won’t as much, right? Like that’s the magic.
[00:19:52] Linzy: The word that comes to mind for me with that, in terms of having somebody else support you in that, is co-regulation. Or body doubling is an ADD term that I like to hear folks use. And that’s something that I do in my course as well, which is just create that container.
[00:20:07] Linzy: It’s like, just show up. If you just show up to the container, we’ll be there. Other people will be there. There’ll be like that momentum and you’ll see other people doing the thing. You won’t be alone. And it’s amazing what you can get done in an hour, or an hour and a half. We do hour and a half coworking calls.
[00:20:21] Linzy: You can get a lot done on your finances in an hour and a half.
[00:20:23] Amber: Oh, a ton done. Like that. And it is magical, right? Yeah. If you show up. All you have to do is show up. Although I do see the spectrum of having clients and friends who have joined my programs before, who have, they show up but they get off camera and they are actually on their phone.
[00:20:38] Linzy: Right, right.
[00:20:41] Amber: And I’m like,no, that’s not showing up. You actually have to, so I do encourage people… I mean, I don’t make people, but I say keeping your camera on is actually part of the accountability. Because if you’re not in person… And I love doing it in person as well. It is magical and I realized, after I, you know, got diagnosed and did a ton of training and learning about ADD, then that’s when I realized, oh, wow, I used to do that.
[00:21:06] Amber: Like when I would have giant piles of paperwork, and I would ask my husband, like, can you just come sit in the room? Like he would watch a movie. And I was like, I just need you here because it allowed me to stay centered and focused. If he left the room, it wasn’t going to happen. Right? It’s very containing, like you said. And that’s a lot of my programs, too, where it’s providing that container, providing that weekly planning container, and we do coworking like three times a week and then I do extended sessions.
[00:21:34] Amber: Right, there are people who come on Monday and one person stands out in particular, even though everyone will kind of chime in about this. But Patty works, she calls it Money Monday because we talked about like having that ritual and she’s like, when I don’t come, I don’t do it and it’s not because she isn’t smart enough.
[00:21:52] Amber: It’s not because she’s not amazing. It’s because we have so many things pulling us in so many directions and we’re just, you know, most of us are a little crispy as well. So we’re just a little burnt out. But yeah, it’s that thing that just having that ritual or having that container that helps you, like, okay, I’m going to take this deep breath and we’re going to do this with intentionality for the next hour.
[00:22:14] Amber: And like you said, it’s amazing what can be accomplished.
[00:22:17] Linzy: Yeah, because often our charge around these tasks, the phobia that can develop around these tasks, is so much greater than the actual pain of doing the task, right? Once you actually start doing the task, you’re like, oh, no, I actually do have this information. It’s right here. Or like, oh, the thing is done.
[00:22:32] Linzy: That’s a general human experience I will say, even as somebody without ADD. But it seems to be more pronounced for folks, with ADD, which is all of the noise around it internally is so much greater than the actual effort of the task once you get to it.
[00:22:46] Amber: Exactly, and that’s the thing because there’s so much shame. And I remember this narrative for myself until I got diagnosed: If I just did it better, I’m just not doing it good enough, or I’m being a bad business owner, or there’s something wrong with me, I’m broken. Maybe I’m not cut out for this.
[00:23:01] Amber: You know, like the things I hear a lot of my clients will talk about as well and then I got diagnosed and I was like, oh my gosh, all of these things that I thought were huge character defects were actually symptoms of ADHD. And I just didn’t understand it.
[00:23:17] Amber: And so I didn’t know how to work with it. All I knew is like everyone else could just say, oh, this is important and I’m going to do it and for me, it was like a Herculean task, but yet I could take something very complex, and I could bang it out in like a day, right?
[00:23:31] Linzy: Yeah, there’s like these contradictions there that I think make it easy for someone from the outside to be like, well, why don’t you just do it? Why don’t you?
[00:23:37] Amber: Exactly, exactly. Right? And again, being a couples therapist, you see that a lot, too. You’re like, this feels purposeful. You can do all of this, but you can’t remember to bring home the milk or whatever.
[00:23:49] Linzy: Right. Well, and something else that I have been reading and thinking a little bit about too is the intersection between ADD and giftedness, right?
[00:23:57] Linzy: Because there’s also can be this special blend, of like, you might actually be exceptionally smart in certain ways, and very good at certain things, and so from the outside it can be hard for other people in your life, or for yourself to understand, how can I be so good at this thing, and so attuned, and so driven, and so focused on this thing, and yet, as you say, I cannot remember to bring home,you know, the milk, or I can’t find my keys.
[00:24:19] Amber: And it, such a contradiction internally and for the people outside of you as well.
[00:24:23] Linzy: Exactly, right.
[00:24:24] Amber: And that’s where, again, like the reinforcement, because, you know, we have neurodivergent brains. We do not fit in the neurotypical world because they’re like, well, this is how you’re supposed to show up and a lot of the time, that’s the opposite of how our brains want to do it, or how we work, or how it makes sense to us.
[00:24:43] Amber: And like you said, there’s a high amount of people that are extremely intelligent. I almost think of the absent-minded professor. That’s who’s in my programs really. It’s like, these are very ambitious people.
[00:24:56] Amber: They’re ambitious, they’re successful, they’re super smart. They’re so caring, and even like people around me in my circle as well and yet they have these things that make them feel like failures or not good enough, because it’s these things that we expect you to be good at everything.
[00:25:13] Amber: Which is such bullshit because it’s like, we don’t expect that of other people but like you said, when you Excel somewhere else, the understanding is like, well, then you should be able to do everything.
[00:25:22] Linzy: Yeah, There’s this idea, as you say, that it’s purposeful when you don’t do something well. And that’s not how brains work. So, how is it then that folks with ADD who are experiencing these traits that we’ve been talking about, how can they get things done? Like we’ve talked about body doubling, you know, as an example.
[00:25:39] Linzy: What else do you find is really effective to help folks with ADD get shit done? Because part of it too, is like what I want for folks is to also, it feels so good to see yourself doing the things that you haven’t been doing and that you’ve been beating yourself up.
[00:25:50] Linzy: What strategies do you find work the best?
[00:25:52] Amber: Yeah, so when I think about it, because, and this is like, I’ve developed my programs over the years. The big problem is like, we do get shit done. Because obviously we get degrees. We achieve things. We run businesses, make money.
[00:26:06] Amber: We’re successful. And a lot of times what the big problem is also is the consistency, right? So it’s about like, I’m setting this intention. This is what I’m going to do this week. And then we don’t achieve it, which then reinforces. I’m not good enough, I feel like shit. And I consider that like a momentum breaker.
[00:26:24] Amber: Right? And so my whole thing is like, how do we build momentum and get as much consistency as possible to be perfect? Well, we’re the wrong species, first of all, but second of all, like nobody’s ever going to finish all of the things, but it’s, how do you approach it to either, like, I say, you have to have the must do’s versus the would-be-nice-to’s, because if you’re like at the end of the week, if I achieved my most important thing, I build this momentum. You have this energy. I know I wake up with energy, and I feel excited when I don’t feel behind. And so there’s this thing. I think number one, we’re overcommitted. That’s what I see just through and through.
[00:27:02] Amber: We are over committed. And this also goes in line, especially with women with ADHD, is this over independence, like I can do it all. And even just saying yes to everything, and taking care of everybody else around you, right? So one, it’s really taking a real hard look at what are my commitments?
[00:27:21] Amber: What am I actually saying yes to and having to say no to stuff and it’s hard. People feel like they’re supposed to do all of the things. The other thing that I actually consider the foundation before that is your schedule. And we know that people with ADHD don’t love structure, but we also know we absolutely need it, which is why people like me who were so successful in the corporate world, why we also feel like what’s wrong with me, maybe I’m not built for this. Because the corporate world had this structure that supported you getting things done consistently.
[00:27:55] Amber: And then you go and start your own business, and everything’s up to you, and you can’t possibly do everything like you have to prioritize, which is something we struggle with because that’s executive functioning. So I think number one is like figuring out a schedule.
[00:28:09] Amber: And for me, it’s not having this rigid schedule. It’s really understanding your energy. So to me, it’s energy management. When I say schedule, I’m thinking about energy management and that’s what we go through it looking at, you know, what are my natural rhythms of energy? When is my brain at its peak and when is it, you know, not good.
[00:28:29] Amber: And so expecting yourself to do your financial updates or your P and L statement, when your energy is low, it’s not going to happen. But we’ll sit there and think, I have to, I’m supposed to, this is what needs to happen. And all you do is make yourself feel like shit. You completely tank your momentum and then you just, it actually makes it harder to do anything.
[00:28:50] Amber: So those are like the two first things that I have people take a look at. The other is just having a plan. So many people don’t have a plan, and they’re just responding to fires. No shame because I understand why, because, you know, we’re constantly having stuff thrown at us. But we have to, like you said, take that step back, and we have to say, why am I doing this?
[00:29:11] Amber: What is the intentionality of this? Right? Like, Why is this important for me to do? Because we could justify doing anything, especially as business owners, anything. But is that really the most important thing? We have to have that clarity. So I really think it’s the clarity. So commitments, clarity, and energy management, I would say, are the big pieces.
[00:29:32] Linzy: Yeah, those big things cause yeah, like what I, I’m thinking about too, as you’re talking about, you know, is we live in a very busy, very loud world as business owners. There’s always approximately a thousand things that you could be working on and improving at any given moment. and I think, you know, as I think about myself as somebody who doesn’t have an ADD brain, that’s there, but I think it doesn’t cause as much noise as it does for somebody, right?
[00:29:52] Linzy: But it’s like there’s… I’m hearing it’s being able to start to discern what is actually important. What’s going to make a difference? It’s hard. It’s hard. You know, and it makes me think too, of the book 4,000 Weeks, by Oliver Berkman. Have you read that book?
[00:30:07] Amber: Yeah. I, well, I didn’t finish it.
[00:30:09] Linzy: Yeah, okay.
[00:30:09] Amber: Because, you know, ADHD.
[00:30:13] Linzy: I understand. I did and I will say it was a bit dissatisfying, but it was good. I like a lot of depth. So, you know, the book, it covers some big ideas in very little soundbites, but generally speaking, basically the idea of the book is you have to make priorities cause you’re only living one life and by the way, you’re going to die.
[00:30:28] Amber: Exactly.
[00:30:29] Linzy: So that’s my, you know, too long, didn’t read, summary, and it makes me think about that because there’s always more to do. There’s always more to do, and there’ll always be more to do until you’re literally dead, and then there won’t be more to do. So I guess that’s, like, success in that sense, but if we even think that we can get all the things done, we are diluting ourselves and, like, missing the basic limitation of being a human, which is that we get to have one life, and trying to do all of the things doesn’t make for a happy life or a happy brain.
[00:30:56] Amber: No, and that’s the thing, I think we also grew up in a time of like that super woman syndrome. Like that’s the other thing where it’s like, you’re supposed to, I want it all. I can have it all. It’s like, no, I think it’s Paula pant who says you can, well, she’s talking about buying it, but you can do anything, but you can’t do everything.
[00:31:12] Amber: That’s actually, The guy who wrote, get stuff done.
[00:31:14] Amber: And she says you can afford anything, but you can’t afford everything. And the thing is, this is what’s so sad and heartbreaking. And I’ve been there. I’ve been in those places where I’m so burnt out and overwhelmed and overloaded where we don’t even go and do the things we want to do because we feel like, “I should just stay home and finish my PNL instead of this.”
[00:31:34] Linzy: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:35] Amber: And so they’re saying no to social commitments. They’re feeling so stressed out. When they’re with their family, they can’t be present. And you know, sometimes I hear people talking about, oh, everyone’s addicted to business or they think it’s like a bragging right
[00:31:48] Amber: and I was like,no, not okay. For some, sure but there are people who are like. I can’t figure out how to not, like, how do I do that? And so I talk a lot about ruthless prioritization. And it is ruthless because sometimes you gotta say no to shit that you like.
[00:32:03] Linzy: Oh, for sure.
[00:32:04] Amber: But you can’t constantly let it be the things that fill you up.
[00:32:08] Amber: It can’t always come at the cost of you actually having downtime or vacations or, you know, social time with friends and family. And that’s what I see. And that’s kind of the other thing that I saw, and I experienced when I first started my business, is that there’s this notion of as a business owner, I have flexibility. Which is true, and I love it.
[00:32:30] Amber: It’s my favorite part; why I could never work for someone else again, but the problem is what I see is we think that flexibility means, oh, I’ll just do the things that are important for me or my business last and I’ll take care of everybody else first. And what ends up happening is then we’re too tired, and then we fall behind, you know, quote, unquote, behind.
[00:32:52] Amber: I try to really get away from that because I think like there’s no such thing as being caught up, but what we need to goal for is feeling on top of things, which, like you said, requires prioritization, which requires like having clarity around, this is what’s important, at least right now.
[00:33:09] Amber: Yeah,
[00:33:09] Linzy: One of the practices that we have in our business, which I learned from some coaches that I worked with, is the apocalypse list, which is that every day when we’re on the ball, which is not all the time, we post a list of like, these are my big things for today. These are the things that if I don’t do it will bring on the apocalypse.
[00:33:26] Linzy: That’s the concept of the apocalypse list, and anything else I do is bonus and that’s really helpful because often, you know, we’ll have a to-do list in our head of 10 things, right? And your brain is trying to hold on to those things because they are important, but like, are they actually urgent? Do they actually need to happen today?
[00:33:42] Linzy: Are they even that important, right? Or is it something that could be… And your brain has a really hard time, I think, in general, all brains, discerning what actually needs to happen now and what could happen next week or what could you actually somebody else do or what could actually not happen at all because it doesn’t even matter, right?
[00:33:56] Linzy: And so, yeah, we make a list, you know, of our top two or three things. And it’s like, if I get these things done, I’m winning the day and I do find it’s very satisfying to come to the end of the day and be like, I finished my apocalypse list. I think I might be a superhero because I’ve actually done the things that actually mattered. When I took the time to think about these are the things that actually matter.
[00:34:16] Linzy: Because I need to get this thing done to get it to this other person, or this thing is happening tomorrow, so that’s important. Or if I don’t do this thing, it’s going to create damage somewhere. When those things are done and you reflect that to yourself, it’s so satisfying that everything else you did was bonus, right?
[00:34:34] Linzy: But if you don’t pull those things out, it all feels important.
[00:34:37] Amber: And that’s the struggle. When you’re in overwhelm, how do you know what those things are? I call it the must-do’s versus the would-be-nice-to’s, right? So I actually did fully read two books, after getting diagnosed, which were, “The One Thing” and “Essentialism.” And they are kind of… They have so much in common
[00:34:58] Amber: And so those really stuck with me because that’s the thing. Like if you say it, apocalypse list, to many ADHDers, they’ll put 15 things on there.
[00:35:07] Linzy: Yes.
[00:35:07] Amber: That’s not all. This thing you are doing is setting yourself up for failure and to feel like shit at the end of the day. And so that’s the thing.
[00:35:14] Amber: The other part, I like that you mentioned it, is we should not be holding stuff in our head. So one of the first things I get my clients to do is to commit to a task management software or system. Because our brains are for having ideas, not holding onto to do lists, right? Having it written down, and I personally prefer that people use digital, again, you do you, because, especially if you’re overwhelmed, you just have to do what’s easiest for you. But the reason I don’t like the paper ones is I see people waste so much time rewriting the same damn list, and then losing the list, or having like 15,000, and it just gets so long. It’s overwhelming.
[00:35:52] Amber: But with digital, it’s so beautiful because you can update the date. Like, oh, I’m going to do this tomorrow. And then I update the date, right? But that’s why we need to have those systems supporting us. And there’s a lot, I mean, I could talk for days about this stuff, about how to structure that so that it isn’t overwhelming, so that you do get those things done.
[00:36:10] Amber: But yeah, that apocalypse list is great because of that, but you have to narrow it and so I try to get people to come to one thing. What are the things that if I finish them, I can, or if I finished this today, I can go to bed and sleep easy.
[00:36:24] Amber: Or at the end of the week, I can feel good and enjoy my weekend. Like those are the things to be thinking about and also many people, I’m pretty sure like all the listeners are therapists or practitioners of some sort. So they’re probably doing one-on-one work. Like my schedule is Tuesdays and Thursdays is when I see all of my clients.
[00:36:43] Amber: And I do not expect myself to accomplish anything on those days. Because I’m seeing clients from 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. And so there is no to-do list for that day. Yes, there might be like, oh, I have to make this phone call or something like that, something small, but I’ve never put a project or a big thing on… Those days don’t count.
[00:37:03] Amber: And so you also have to look at how many things I have on my list is really dependent on: what does the day look like? How much time do you actually have? And then your bandwidth, right? I’m 49 now. My bandwidth for… Now I have days where I can hyper focus like your husband and work like 20 hours, but most of the time I used to do a good nine hour day all the time. I just don’t want to do that anymore. I just, my brain is like, no, I don’t want to.
[00:37:33] Linzy: Very fair. Yeah. There’s, I think there’s a seasonality there, too. And I do love your point about what is actually on your schedule this day… Because I catch myself doing this. I just did this to myself on Monday. It’s like I have a day full of team meetings, and basically my whole day is calls, and yet I say that I’m going to do like a two hour video edit.
[00:37:50] Linzy: Like when was I gonna do that? Was I gonna bend time? It’s so unrealistic, but it’s helpful, I find, even, to write an apocalypse list that later I’m like, what the fuck was I thinking? Because then I can call myself out on a really unrealistic expectation, right? If I don’t write it out, then it can sit in the back of my head.
[00:38:06] Linzy: I’m like, oh, I still didn’t edit that video, right? But if I write it out, then I have to reflect to my whole team later. I didn’t even touch this because I actually had six hours of meetings. So this was obviously not the right item for today, which does give a bit of, for me, an external accountability to them and that bit more can be realistic you know. When I get it out of my head, I’m like, oh, that didn’t make sense okay, that’s okay. And then I can kind of let go of any kind of beating myself up that I would’ve done
[00:38:32] Amber: If you don’t do that reflection process… Again, it’s that stepping back. So that’s actually the first thing we do in our weekly planning is we first, we focus on what went well. Cause we’ve got to celebrate the wins. You have to, especially as business owners, all we ever see is what’s left on the list.
[00:38:47] Amber: Not all the stuff that got done, right? So we do that, but then we also look at what didn’t go well or what didn’t go as planned and just like that, usually it’s around holding boundaries that cause things to go off track, or not planning ahead. Right? So if you were to do that, then you start to notice, oh, wait, am I committing to big things on days where I have way too many meetings and stuff?
[00:39:09] Amber: Like that’s not a good choice here. Right? And, to me, the other magical thing, if you want consistency, cause I’ve had people push back on this in my memberships and I’m like, okay and I know I’m right. As I say, I like to get carefrontation sometimes, loving carefrontation, but you know, we all have our own journey.
[00:39:30] Amber: You have to know what you’re doing the next day before that day starts, because if you start the day and then make your list,you’re already going to be overwhelmed. I’m especially speaking to the neuro spicy people. You’re so overwhelmed. You’re already feeling the pressures of all these things, and you’re not going to probably choose the best, most important thing that you should be doing.
[00:39:46] Amber:It’s like meal planning. Like if I meal plan on Sunday, and I plan out the whole week, I will eat a variety of healthy foods and I’ll cook and I’ll do this, but if I wake up and say, what do I feel like today?
[00:40:00] Amber: Every day is going to be pizza and burgers.
[00:40:03] Because we want, in that moment, especially if you’re like, oh, I didn’t sleep well, blah, blah, blah, but if you’re like, even when I have nights like last night, I stayed up till two and I don’t know why. It was stupid,
[00:40:13] Amber: But when I know exactly what’s happening the next day, I still wake up with an energy and a clarity. So, I didn’t have to make any decisions today and that’s part of it. All I do is check the things off my list. That’s all I have to do and that feels much more manageable than making a decision, which takes a different kind of energy.
[00:40:33] Linzy: Yeah, well, and it makes me think about making a decision is more of a zooming out energy, and that’s quite a demanding energy and I think for what I’m running here and talking to you and what I’m observing, especially demanding for folks who are neurospicy. And so don’t make yourself do that every day, and don’t make yourself do that while you’re tired and in the midst of it. Do that in a very intentional way to set the frame for the week is what I’m hearing. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Amber, I could talk to you forever, but
[00:41:00] Amber: I was like, I’m going to keep going, but I’ll stop because I see the time.
[00:41:05] Linzy: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been so interesting, so enlightening, and I know, so relevant to so many folks who are listening. If people want to get further into your world, learn more about you, where can they find you?
[00:41:18] Amber: Yes. Well, if they’re listening to this podcast episode, they can hop on over to The Easily Distracted Entrepreneur. And I also have a podcast… I’m calling it a capsule podcast because it’s going to be like 20, 21 episodes, called The Easily Distracted Therapist. So it’s speaking more specifically to the challenges and the unique things that therapists face.
[00:41:39] Amber: And since, you know, I work with all kinds of business owners, but a majority of the people in my programs are therapists because that is also a big part of my network. but you can always go to amberHawley. com and actually, I wanted to give like another thing that kind of impacts people’s, like you said, having that shiny object syndrome.
[00:41:57] Amber: I think you said it earlier. So I do have this thing that helps you discern. Is this an awesome opportunity or a shiny object? One of those things about helping you get clarity. So if they went to amberHawley.com/Linzy, then they would be able to download that for free.
[00:42:12] Linzy: Beautiful, love that. I think that’s a question that many of us have. So you can click on that link then in the show notes to get that tool from Amber. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming today. It’s lovely to meet you.
[00:42:25] Amber: Lovely to talk to you.
[00:42:26] Linzy: I’m just excited cause I know what you’re talking about is going to be really relevant for so many folks. So thank you for being on the podcast today.
[00:42:32] Amber: Thanks.
[00:42:45] Linzy: Something that sticks out to me in this conversation with Amber today is some of the things that are good and important for folks with ADD to do, are also good for all of us, but are especially important when you do have ADD. So, what we talked about with zooming out, on your situation, like creating a plan for the week before you’re actually in it.
[00:43:07] Linzy: I love her example of meal planning because that is something that I relate to on such a visceral level. If I put a little bit of thought on the weekend, and I don’t do a total meal plan, I don’t do day by day, but at least if I think on the weekend of three meals we can have during the week and make sure we have food around for those, it is so much easier when I’m actually in the week to make that good decision and be like,no, tonight is not popcorn for dinner. Tonight is tacos, and look at all the ingredients that I got on the weekend.
[00:43:38] Linzy: That is way, way easier to actually do the things that are good for me than
making myself make those decisions in the moment when I’m tired, and I’ve maybe had a big day, or something else has come up that is distracting me, right? Like that ability to zoom out and create a great plan that then you just have to follow is such a gift to yourself. Especially important for folks with ADD, but also helpful for folks without ADD like myself.
[00:44:00] Linzy: So a good reminder of the value of zooming out, and putting a great plan in place, for your business and for your life. So you’re not making yourself have to make these decisions on the spot all the time.
[00:44:18] Linzy: Our brains generally are too busy and tired to do that well so it’s a favor to yourself to set a bigger plan in motion. So I’m just very energized after my conversation with Amber today. She’s so lovely. So if you are at all curious about what she offers, do click on the link in the show notes where you can get that freebie on discerning: is this a shiny object? And check out all the other stuff that Amber has to offer.
[00:44:36] Linzy: Because I think there’s just a wealth of knowledge there, for folks with ADD, especially folks, as we mentioned, who maybe have just recently discovered that is how your brain works. You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts and if you are interested in working with me and using the containers that we have in the course, the coworking with that body doubling where all you got to do is show up and there’s the space to get the work done, and also the step by step guidance to change your relationship with money, get systems really working for you in your business.
[00:45:09] Linzy: The way to learn about Money Skills for Therapists, which is my signature course for solo practitioners, is by checking out my masterclass. So there’s a link in the show notes for the masterclass. It is called the four step framework to getting your private practice finances in order and that is where you will learn about what I teach, how I teach it.
[00:45:27] Linzy: You’ll learn about the course itself. And you can decide whether or not it is the right container for you to finally get working on your money and change your relationship with your finances in your private practice, and in your life. So I’ll put the link to that in the show notes. That is the four step framework to getting your private practice finances in order.
[00:45:43] Linzy: And that is the way to learn about and get an invite to Money Skills for Therapists. Thank you so much for joining me today.
