Tiffany [00:00:04] It’s not just about raising your fees and earning more money. It’s about showing up as a different human in the world, a different clinician, but also a different mom, a different spouse, a different friend, a different son or daughter. You have to be different to do this work. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have our final episode of Season five. That time has come and I’m really excited that my guest for today is Tiffany McLain. You may know Tiffany as a clinical strategist for therapists in private practice. Her mantra is “Full fees are the new black”. Through her program, Lean In Make Bank Academy, she helps therapists ethically earn significantly more per month while seeing fewer clients and doing better clinical work. Tiffany I think of her as the the fee person in our space, like she really owns this space and she’s been teaching Lean In Make Bank since 2016? 17? Is back when I first connected with her. Today, Tiffany and I get into why fees and money can be such a conflicted kind of a sometimes a tortured area for therapists, something that can be really hard for us to talk about. We talk about people literally fighting on her ads and arguing and winning each other over on her Facebook ads. If you see her Facebook ads go by, you can click on the comments, it’s the most dramatic comment section I’ve seen on Facebook ads in our space, in like the therapy health practitioner space. And I think the reason of that is fees are just such a loaded, loaded topic and people, you know, get so entrenched in to our beliefs about fees and what is fair and what is ethical and what is right and like what the role of therapy supposed to be. You know, folks have a lot to say. And I think, you know, Tiffany and I get in to today where a lot of that messaging has come from for us, we talk about being helpers and how that contributes to our role. And we also actually get into the topic of staying small, having folks in our life wanting us to be small, but also how sometimes maybe we can be invested in our clients staying small when we don’t do our own work around setting boundaries. Really enjoyable conversation with Tiffany. I always love talking with her. Here is Tiffany McLain. So, Tiffany, welcome back to the podcast. 

Tiffany [00:03:14] Thank you. I am happy to be here. And folks who are listening, Linzy and I talk all the time. So this is going to be like, kind of podcast, kind of Linzy and I talking all the time. 

Linzy [00:03:23] But we did just like stop talking. We were like, okay, we okay, well you have to like, do the thing. So this is this is not a conversation about our children. This is not a conversation about interior decorating. We’re going to talk about money. Okay. 

Tiffany [00:03:35] Good. I’m ready. 

Linzy [00:03:36] So, Tiffany, as I just mentioned, no pressure, but this is our season ender. Season closer. For whatever season I’m on. I think it’s season five now. And so I’m really excited to have you here and have you back because you are on season one and it’s been a minute. 

Tiffany [00:03:48] I can’t believe it was so long ago that I was here. 

Linzy [00:03:51] The seasons are pretty short. 

Tiffany [00:03:53] This is good, consistent work. Way to go on your podcast. 

Linzy [00:03:56] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s actually I’m loving it. I’m loving it. I should have done this years ago. So Tiffany, folks probably know who you are, but do you want to, like, tell them a little bit, if they haven’t heard from you or heard of you somehow, what would be your like your quick intro? Who’s Tiffany McLain? What do you do? Who are you? 

Tiffany [00:04:13] Holy mackerel. I help therapists ethically raise their fees so they can have more money while seeing fewer clients and doing better clinical work. This is controversial. Therapist, if you’re listening, you might be freaking out, but that’s what I do. I really advocate on behalf of the therapists, while you therapists and clinicians are advocating on behalf of your client. That’s my job. 

Linzy [00:04:36] Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. And I will say you might have seen Tiffany’s ads go by because I feel like your your ads are everywhere. We were just talking about your ads. Christelle, my operations manager, actually, she’s come up with a very bold International Women’s Day. And I was like, This is really bold. She was like, Well, I was looking at what Tiffany does, and I was like, Well, Tiffany is Tiffany. You’ve got some really great ads out there. So folks have probably seen those go by. And always interesting discussion on your ads, too. I feel like you have ads where people fight on your ads. 

Tiffany [00:05:05] People really fight and people attack each other, they attack my appearance, but also therapists come on and advocate for each other, too. There are really thoughtful conversations, even transformations happening in the comments of the ads, which I have never seen before in other people’s ads. So I feel really excited, and proud of that. 

Linzy [00:05:24] So so with this, like, what do you think that’s about? Like, what is it about this topic that is so, I mean, specifically around fees, because like I also I teach – we’re both in the money space – but I’m teaching like skills and mindset and like but you are talking directly about fees and there’s something that is so- can be so activating about that for people. What do you think this is about? Why is this so loaded for us? 

Tiffany [00:05:49] I have spent, as you know, a lot of time thinking about this. And over the years I have found that there are three factors that contribute to it being so hard for us therapists to charge fees or look at fees or even talk about the exchange of money between us and our clients. There was actually a psychologist, her name was Ella Lasky back in the 1980s, and she did a survey of psychoanalysts actually, and she was looking at this difficulty with money. And one of the things she found, especially for women and I would also say people of color or people from marginalized communities. But all therapists, regardless of that, number one, serve as the helper, the role of helper in their family of origin. She found that they are more likely than their siblings to have been the one to mediate arguments. We are highly attuned to what was happening with the other family members and make sure that everybody was being taken care of, often to the neglect of their own emotional needs, wants, and desires. So if you’re a therapist, that was likely the role you served. You’re nodding, Linzy, Is this familiar to you in your business? 

Linzy [00:06:52] Absolutely, yes. I think most therapists were therapists long before we actually became trained and licensed. That’s right. That’s that’s the role that we often played, you know, in some capacity, like whether it’s peacemaker or attuner or, you know, we already had that read on everybody’s emotions and we’re making sure that everybody was okay long before we actually went into the field. 

Tiffany [00:07:14] That, okay, so then we take that right now and then we go into a wider society again, back to especially if you’re from a marginalized background, but even if you’re from a working class background for generations. So first in your family of origin, you’re the helper who’s putting aside her needs for other people. Then you go into a wider society that’s telling you you don’t actually deserve to make as much money as that person over there, Right? Like the quintessential person who is allowed to make money in our society is not going to likely be you, who’s ever listening to this podcast. And so we’re told that we need to be giving back first, making sure everything is- everybody’s taking care of, making sure that we’re helping our community, being accessible. Society is telling us then that we need to be putting our needs second again and making sure everyone else is taken care of so we get it in our family of origin. Then it’s reinforced by a wider society. And then of course we go into the field of psychology or social work. Yeah, well then it’s the echo chamber reinforcing these very same ideas. So again, you’ll hear from professors or colleagues, supervisors, things like, I didn’t enter this field to make money. Your job is to be accessible. It’s unethical to be charging fees that so that some people in the world can’t afford you. So you get in your family of origin, larger society, and then you go to the field of psychology where it’s just battered at you. And so, of course it’s hard! Therapists come out of this condition to not want to think about money and not want to talk about money. Not not even allowed to have the desire for money. And then they say, Now do I say charge premium fees at all? 

Linzy [00:08:43] Yeah. So there’s like three layers of conditioning right there. You know, family origin, societal position, and then the actual field itself. That just weighs down on us. 

Tiffany [00:08:58] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:08:59] Right. Yes. Yeah, that absolutely resonates with me. As you were talking, I was like, I have definitely talked about all these things. So I think you and I like we are we’re preaching from the same songbook, you know, for people who are listening. Then it’s like if they’ve gotten past the point of, you know, because we’re talking with this hurdle of being able to even say, I need money, I want money, like, I want to be okay. When people have started to do some of that work and they’re starting to think about like, okay, maybe my fee does need to be different than what it is. Often I think people know when it’s not working right, and that’s what I see in money skills so often. It’s like it’s like if you are having a hard time paying your bills at home, there’s no savings for the future. We often know that pain point of like, it’s not working, right? So when we’re starting to think about how to make it work and we’re starting to think about a fee, how do we actually figure out what a fair fee even is, trying to balance our values and our needs? 

Tiffany [00:09:54] Yeah, I love that. So I love also that you highlighted this pain point. So therapists, I spoke a few weeks ago with a social media manager who works with therapists who’s not in the field, and she was telling me about what she did and she said- What did she say- I said, I asked her, why did you choose to work with therapists, given that this is not you know, you’re not a therapist? And she said something like, All the reasons she loved working with therapists, but then she said therapists something like They take more than any other professional I’ve ever met. They just put up they put up with more. And I was like, Oh, what do you mean? And she’s like, The therapist will just scrimp and save and take. They’ll take so much shit. Folks, before they realize like, Oh, maybe something needs to change now. Opened my eyes because I’m a therapist and I know that. But then again, to hear it from an outside professional was like, Wow, that’s right. And so I love, Linzy, that you pointed out. It takes a lot for a therapist to start recognizing, Oh, something needs to change with money. Like, I’m not able to save anything for the future or I can’t even pay my bills. Like when it gets that extreme, then sometimes therapists start having some alerts go off. Oh oh. So when that happens, the first thing I recommend, I recommend three steps. The first thing I recommend is they make space for the feelings. Because when you’re in a space where you’re really trying to help people and you’ve done everything right according to what you’ve been told, and then you’re still not even able to pay your bills or you’re not taking lunch breaks because you’re just sitting back to back to back clients. Once you start acknowledging that, it can be very shameful. Yeah, there might be guilt or anxiety about recognizing that you might want to do something different. It’s just- there’s so many feelings involved. And so before we do anything, I encourage therapists to acknowledge and make space for all of the feelings that arise in this situation. 

Linzy [00:11:45] Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:11:45] The second thing, the feelings don’t go away, folks, also keep doing that for the rest of these two or three steps, right? Number two, therapists have to get into reality and therapists, when it comes to money – you know this because you work with therapists around money – they avoid it. You’ve got to get real about what you need. We have a calculator. We can link to that in the show. People can go to Lean In Make Bank dot com forward slash fee calculator and we actually walk therapists through, step by step, their monthly expenses, their dream expenses. So not just like, here’s what I need to get by and suffer, but also what I need for clinical supervision. What do I need to be able to have enough time to write that book I want to write? What do I need to take a vacation every quarter for a week, right, the dream along with the needs. And then we also have therapists go through: in your ideal world where you have energy to show up, where you’re excited to do the work you want to do, how many people are you actually seeing a day? How many days are you actually working a week? So we have people do all of that work in this calculator and then we spit out: here is the fee you need to be charging if you want to have a life that really allows you to show up fully for yourself and your clients and whatever relationships you value. That’s number two. The third step. Once you do that, it’s phone a friend, you gotta phone a friend because if you do that calculator right, you’re going to have a large discrepancy likely between what you’re currently charging. Maybe that’s a $70 you’re taking from an insurance panel or you’re doing 125 or maybe even charge like 180. But that’s like one person and the rest pay like 110. Right. There is likely going to be a large discrepancy between what you need and where you’re currently at. And in that moment, I encourage you to call someone. It doesn’t have to be a therapist. Maybe even I’d encourage it not to be a therapist. 

Linzy [00:13:31] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:13:34] Someone who wants you to do well, someone who is excited by the possibility of you earning more, and have more luxury, and having more joy and more financial freedom. Call that person and walk through the results of your calculator and what the fee came out to be and let them know how you’re feeling at this point. 

Linzy [00:13:52] You know, it’s so interesting, Tiffany, when you say that, and I don’t know if this is like if our listeners are going to have this response, too, but I was thinking about I don’t know if everybody has that person. Like, I think when you’ve been the helper, I mean, you should have that person. That’s the next step: if you don’t know that person, go make that friend. Go to a café and find that friend. Because I think when you have played that helper role, so like when you’re really entrenched in it, like when you really live and breathe it and when that’s who you are in your family and that’s who you are in your work, that’s often also who you are in your friend group. And I think you and I have both, you know, I know we have because we’ve talked about this over the years, had, you know, these experiences where we do have to kind of shift and find those people because we have actually built relationships where people are like, well, unconsciously, I actually feel more comfortable when you stay small. And so I am actually going to probably not validate these things and not want you to have luxury because there’s something about that that’s serving me. And so I’m just thinking about that, just like how much this conditioning generalizes into our life and makes it hard to make these changes because, you know, it makes you think about kind of like family of origin, like there’s a metaphor kind of about family therapy. I do not do family therapy, by the way, if people listening, you’re going to be like, Oh, she’s butchering it. But there’s kind of a metaphor of like a family, like a mobile, and when one person tries to move, everybody else also shifts and tries to keep you in that fixed position because it’s like, no, no, no, this is your role, this is who you are. And I think that happens, too, in the other relationships that we build, right? Like folks try to keep us in place. So just curious what your thoughts about that. Like what what do folks do if they realize that that’s a case? Or like, what are your thoughts on all of this, these relationships that we build in these patterns sometimes? 

Tiffany [00:15:36]  I love that you bring that up. It’s super on point. You’ve talked- we’ve talked about it amongst each other. I’ll say two things. I think the lack of community is one of the things that motivated me to start my program because I was wanting to talk about fees, understand what was going on interpersonally. And I looked around and the messaging I got was, don’t charge, it’s scary. Don’t talk about money. From even my supervisors. Everywhere I looked, I got that. 

Linzy [00:16:03] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:16:03] And so, you know, being a helper, I’m like, I’m just going help myself. I’m going to create a whole entire business where therapists do not have to be alone with these kinds of conversations. 

Linzy [00:16:12] Yes, yes, yes. 

Tiffany [00:16:13] I think that’s the first thing. So if if this is something, if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re like, I don’t have anyone, come to work with us because we have a whole lot of people who have to learn to have these conversations in an honest, powerful, clinically appropriate way. The second thing that came to mind is, you know, sometimes in the comments – talking about the ads I put out there for the business or the program – sometimes therapists say, well, just raise your fees. What’s the problem? Hmm. Because the exact thing you’re talking about, Linzy, that’s the problem. Our fees are a projection. I like to talk about money as a canvas. Right? So we can we can project all of our thoughts, feelings, anxieties, and all of our existing patterns. We play out in money. So raising our fee often isn’t just about raising our fee, it’s about addressing these relationships. You’re talking about, Linzy, where we are the caretakers, we sacrifice ourselves. Other people have come to rely and depend on us for that. And if we shift, whether it’s with our clients or our spouses or our family, it’s disruptive to everyone around us. And without having a clear community, step by step system, a place with people and a container – we have a yearlong container. So a container where, as you make these shifts, you can come back for help as other people and things in your life start to shift. Yeah, it’s not just about raising your fees and earning more money. It’s about showing up as a different human in the world, a different clinician, but also a different mom, a different spouse, a different friend, a different son or daughter. You have to be different to do this work.  

Linzy [00:17:50] That’s so true. And that’s so profound. And I mean, it makes me think about when I found you, going back, where are we now? We’re in 2023. Would have been in 2017 that I found you. I was so hungry for that community. And to be with people who are like, Let’s be therapists. Also, let’s open our gifts and take up space and like, talk about, you know, for me, I’m like, let’s talk about money. Yeah, that’s something you and I shared back then. I flew across the continent to go be with those people. And that’s still my community of peers, like, you know, I’m planning a trip to San Francisco this year because it’s like you’re in San Francisco, Annie Wright’s in San Francisco, like, Megan’s just a little bit north. Meagan Megginson. Like these people that I connected with, through being connected with you, have become my peers who have cheered me on and like, taken up space with me, right? Because I think a lot of my – literally all of my peers – couldn’t come with me on that journey. It’s like I picked a different road and like, I think that is the power of that community. So, you know, if you’re listening and you’re hungry for this, like Tiffany’s program provides that. You know, if you’re looking more for the skill side of things. My program provides that, like, get with your people because it does take months and months and years of work to undo, you know, this conditioning that that we’ve received family of origin, society, and in our, you know, professional training. Like it really is deep ongoing work that is so much easier when you’re walking alongside people who are doing it as well. 

Tiffany [00:19:16] Yeah, I haven’t felt – I don’t know if you felt that – I felt a little grief as you were talking because there was a lot of grief as well. To say goodbye to these patterns often means saying goodbye to relationships because we’re changing and it’s intolerable to other people. So even those kinds of things. This is why – back to the original question of why is it so hard to talk about? Because often shifting the way as we relate to money and our desire and ourselves taking up space, like you said, means there are people who no longer want to be in relationship with us. And that’s that’s a big change. And it’s often there’s often a lot of mourning involved, for sure. 

Linzy [00:19:51] Yeah. And I will say too, there’s people that we no longer want to be in relationship with either because they don’t want us to be this new version of ourselves. 

Tiffany [00:19:59] Correct. 

Linzy [00:19:59] And I’ve I’ve had those kinds of discords over the last few years where it’s like every time I hang out with this person, I feel small again, right? Or I feel bad or I feel like I should be hiding my success. And then it’s like, right, I actually I don’t feel that way. So I need to make a choice. Yes. So no longer. And yeah, there is a lot of grief there. Absolutely. So thinking about fees, like I know some some folks listened to this podcast and it may be you listen to struggle with scarcity and this feeling like there isn’t enough- there aren’t enough clients, like maybe their caseload is not full and they see those empty spaces on their caseload. I’m reading their thought bubble right now, and I think one of the thoughts in that thought bubble would be like, Why would I even think about raising my fee if I can’t fill my caseload at the more affordable fee that I have right now? Like, isn’t that kind of putting like the carriage before the horse? Why would they think about raising their fee if they’re still trying to fill their practice or get the referrals that they haven’t been able to get yet? 

Tiffany [00:20:57] Yeah, it’s so counterintuitive. It’s so counterintuitive to be charging $150 per session and then have someone come tell you, actually, you should be charging based on your own calculations. Yeah, $180 per session. So let’s work on raising those fees with your current clients and then a new client to call. What, Like, it’s just. It’s almost unthinkable. And on the other side of things, and the years I’ve been running this program, one of the most difficult things that I see therapists going through is when they did the marketing first and got an entire caseload of people at a fee that was too low. And now they’re realizing, Oh, I’m seeing – I really hope it’s not 40, but it could be – 40 people a week. But let’s say it’s even 25 or 30 people a week, and they’re still overwhelmed. More overwhelmed. Are totally burned out, resentful, feel so relieved when a client cancels. They aren’t enforcing the cancellation policy. Aren’t going on vacation. They’re now in a place where they feel trapped by the caseload they worked so hard to build, and they’re still nowhere near being able to pay their bills or pay off their loans or save for retirement, life insurance. And heaven forbid, you know, sometimes therapists, often, if they’re in a romantic relationship, married, let’s say, they kind of put off the reality of these things because they have a spouse. 

Linzy [00:22:17] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:22:17] We’ve had people in our program for whom their spouse has passed away or a health condition has happened and suddenly they’re the primary breadwinner. So really, it’s- therapists are avoiding taking these things seriously. It can put us in a difficult position. So therapists will come to us and say, I really- I realize I need to raise my fees. I can’t do this anymore. I just get goose bumps. But I don’t know how to raise fees now with these 25 people who I’m already working with, I wish I could just start with new fees, but I don’t even have room to take anyone new, much less market, much less do anything else I need to do to take care of myself, so I- we can help people. Those are those are most of the people come into our program. The people who are sometimes luckier are the folks who join the program. Maybe. Maybe they only have five or ten folks. Then they can raise their fees with those five or ten folks. And guess what? They’re now maybe they are only seeing five folks, but they’re charging 200 per hour, which gives them enough income to then have time to understand how to really market to clients who can afford the premium fees and also who they have to be as a therapist to have a conversation with somebody such that that client is confident to say, Yeah, I want to pay this therapist, I’m going to make a sacrifice to pay this therapist $200 because I truly believe they can help me. 

Linzy [00:23:33] Mm hmm. 

Tiffany [00:23:34] If a therapist is seeing 28 clients, burnt out, overwhelmed, frustrated, stressed, financially insecure, and someone calls them on the phone. All of that is conveyed. 

Linzy [00:23:44] Yes. 

Tiffany [00:23:44] All of that comes through in those no matter what marketing you’re doing. Yeah. You’re unconsciously communicating. Please, I can’t take anymore. That’s a new client. And the clients are even saying right now they feel it. 

Linzy [00:23:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I mean, part of what I’m hearing here is, like, if you can build a machine that works in the first place, like build a practice that’s actually going to meet your needs. Because when we do build those practices at like super low fees. And I remember those days. I don’t remember – I don’t know if you ever went through this when you were building your practice – but I remember those days where it’s like, Will you be my client? Or You’ll be my client? Okay, you have a problem I’ve never dealt with before. That’s fine. I can learn how to do, you know, like I’ll look up how to do gender affirmation. Like, I’m, like, looking up stuff that is, like, so not in my, like, clinical realm because it’s just like this- there’s desperation that can happen there, right? And that’s when we’re setting our fees from that place. We can build a practice where the math will never work, the math will never work. And when you’re saying, like you said, 40 and then you said only 20 or 30, I’m like, even that makes you want to lie on the floor and cry like, that’s so, so much emotional labor. Like, it’s so much profound work that you are doing. I think it’s- there’s very few therapists who can thrive at that level of caseload. And those who do tend to be people who have super superhuman levels of energy. And maybe you could like take up rowing or something instead, you know, like they could possibly channel some of that energy to a hobby. But yeah, when you build it so it doesn’t work, you’re never going to be okay. I love this piece and I feel like this is a piece that I’ve heard you talk about more and more over the last few years of like the clinical excellence part of like when you charge a fee that makes you have to show up differently, like you’re actually a better clinician. Can you speak more to that or talk about some examples of what that has looked like for your students? 

Tiffany [00:25:32] I certainly can. I’m going to just be talking about our Facebook ads all day long because there’s so much learning that happens there. There was a therapist who came on, This is disgraceful, he said about the ads and he said, I make 400,000 and I take insurance. First of all, someone checked. They’re like, there’s no way that math adds up. 

Linzy [00:25:47] Awful math. Okay. Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:25:49] But so when asked how many people are you seeing. So this conversation is going back and forth. And he said something like 40 clients a week. So and I think and someone added up like you, you saw 40 clients a week for 52 weeks. With this insurance rate, you’re still not making enough, so you take no time off. So we can all see in those egregious examples. Yeah, if you are seeing 25 or 30 people a week, you’re not making enough money yourself. You’re not examining your own needs, the boundaries that you would have to take on to be able to have those conversations to actually make sure you’re advocating for your needs. As much as you want to believe you’re helping your clients do that in their own life, I assert that you actually are missing something and you can’t fully help your client do a thing that you’ve never been willing or able to do in your own life. As therapists start taking the risk to see what they really need to be charging, feel all – I’m getting goose bumps again – feel all the loss and mourning and fear that comes with making that change in their own life. They start shifting in their clinical work, are being able to challenge their own clients more, really being able to go to emotionally vulnerable places when their clients are struggling with setting boundaries or making changes, they’re able to show up more fully in a way that they’re never able to do. Therapist Listening, you’re not actually able to show up fully when you’re cutting out this whole part of your own unconscious process and saying, I’m not going to look at those boundaries for my own needs in this fundamental way. 

Linzy [00:27:26] Totally. Yeah. And it makes me think about how even just on a very almost obvious level, when we’re working in such a way that we can go home and have the energy to have like a great date with our partner or have some great sex or go away to a spa with friends. Like we show up the next day with a spark, right? Like that lights us up as humans, and then we’re actually maybe practicing what we preach a little bit, right? And like those days where it’s just like you have actually, like, lived life and you’re actually sometimes able to clinically even bring that in and like, talk about something that suddenly has real meaning because you have been applying it in your life, right? Or you have had, you know, an experience. You’re not telling somebody what to do. Well, you know, like working eight clinical hours a day, going home, bingeing on Cheetos. Yeah, passing out, right, like that never feels good when we’re out of alignment. And so even from that direct level, like, we all know that we do better clinical work when we’re happy. 

Tiffany [00:28:26] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:28:27] Right. And when we’re actually living life like there’s so much integrity there. But I also love this whole piece, you know, and being friends with you. Over the years, I’ve become more acquainted with psychoanalytic language because you and I live – we’re in different therapy. towers – I live in the like trauma EMDR parts work tower, and you’re in the psychoanalytic tower. But, like, yeah, all of these disowned things, right? Like, if we’re not even willing to think about taking a risk and think about our own needs and have hard conversations, yeah, how can we really be authentically helping our clients do that work? And how can we really actually understand what we’re asking them to do when we are coaching them to do those same things? 

Tiffany [00:29:03] And absolutely 100%. There’s also something about the projections, Speaking of the kind of the psychoanalytic world and other modalities as well. When therapists say – I’m in a conversation, I have email conversations. If you will email me, I’ll probably email you back. So I’m having this along, over the period of a week, conversation with a therapist who’s saying she’s not in the program. She’s like, I could never raise fees with existing clients and we’re going back and forth about it. And even that, I haven’t asked her this yet. I may or may not. But the assertion, if you’re out there listening to this podcast and you said I can, you’re thinking I can never do it, I can never raise fees more than five or $10. My hunch is there’s a lot of your own over-identification, your own projections. You’re basing that on your own life, not the actual lived experience of the person sitting across from you. And even the even in that statement, I could never raise fees or I have to be accessible. You’re already cutting off the potential of a person across from you. You’re cutting off the possibility that they could find other ways to make money, that they may already have money somewhere, that they can actually grow and change and make a different professional choice so that they can afford to pay more in therapy where we’re limiting them because of our own fears, anxieties, and projections lately about relationships, where we’re playing in our own family avoidance. Now we’ve brought them here and we’re playing them out with our clients as well. 

Linzy [00:30:34] Spot on. Spot on, Tiffany McLain. As usual. Like I- the thing that that makes you think about too. An adjacent piece to that is like we really are in that way treating our clients like victims. 

Tiffany [00:30:46] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:46] It’s like do you actually believe that your clients can solve problems, grow, change? And I’ve talked about this with my students before because I’ll even see this come up in money skills where people are like, well, I can’t come to calls ever because I have a client on Tuesday at 1:00 and I’m like, okay, well, the client, have you asked them about changing times? Like, you know. But it’s like in that, here’s the belief, the belief is my client is so inflexible, they have no other availability. They’re so tied to this specific time with me that it would be damaging to our relationship for them to realize that I have other things that I do that might come into this time. Like it’s such a limited view of your client. And like, what I try to remind my students of is like, your client actually might be relieved. They might actually have been hoping to see you at four, but they think that one’s the only time you have available, right? There might be a different day that works better for them anyways. Right. We make such limited stories and I think so much of that is as therapists we sit with our clients, like in their vulnerability, in their trauma, in their shame, like we are experiencing such specific parts of them and we don’t see them when they’re like kicking ass and getting a raise at work or when they’re like really good at board games, or when they tell a really funny joke and everybody at the table laughs. Like, we don’t see those moments in their life where they’re like shining and feeling strong because that’s not what generally the content that we’re talking to them about. But they have those parts. And if we don’t acknowledge that our clients can solve problems and grow and change and as you say, even make like big career shifts and take up more space in their own life, there’s an inherent limitation to the work that we’re doing with them because maybe, maybe Tiffany, part of us wants them to stay small. 

Tiffany [00:32:25] Yeah, wholly. Okay, let’s stop. Let’s pause on this for a minute. Wow. How can you wax philosophical about that for another second? 

Linzy [00:32:36] Well, I think, you know, okay, this is a new idea. So we’re going to talk it out. But I do think that when we. When we’re really married to this idea of like, people really need me. They need me to solve these problems. We are invested in them not changing and growing, right? Like, you know, another language around it I think would be codependency. want to be needed. And unconsciously we might be committed to the idea that they shouldn’t change and grow, that we you know, this is what makes us feel comfortable. This is the role we’re comfortable playing. And if our role is helper, then, and if we can’t imagine ourselves being in any other role, I think unconsciously we’re going to put other people in our life into the role of being helped. Right? The dependent we are. And if We are so committed to that role of helper and we cannot do the work to step outside of it and to expand and be excited about being other things in our world. I do wonder if that is going to contribute to relationships where we don’t want our clients to go away and we don’t want our clients to have a breakthrough and graduate from therapy and maybe even do work that we haven’t been willing to do on ourselves yet. 

Tiffany [00:33:46] Wow. As you’re talking, this is fascinating. This is wild. You’re making me think about the students who come into our program. Often when therapists come into our program, they are seeing their own therapist on a sliding scale. Yes. Yes. And one of the changes that a lot of them are making to their sometimes a lot of a lot of grief around it, sometimes relief, is they end up finding a new therapist who charges more. And when therapists start talking to their own sliding scale therapist about the changes they’re making in their own practice, often their therapists, sometimes they’re encouraging. And that’s great. Often they’re encouraging them to keep their fees low, stay at their agency jobs, don’t go into private practice. So this phenomenon you’re talking about, I was, as you’re talking, I was thinking, is that really true? What therapist would- yes, therapists literally, to each other, discourage them from making changes in their life that would improve their own financial situation. I would encourage our listeners to really take some time to think clearly about whether this dynamic may be going on, whether this is going on with your own clients and patients, folks. Yes. 

Linzy [00:34:55] Yeah, absolutely. Because I think too, you know, an adjacent piece here is scarcity, right? So when we have fear of like, I won’t find more clients, there is going to be parts of us that are invested in our clients just sticking around for years. Right. And as a clinician, something I used to say to my clients, it’s like my job is to get you out the door. Mm hmm. I want you to leave. I like you a lot. And also, I’m successful when you don’t need me anymore. Right. And I think I would have that conversation openly because I wanted to make sure that we were not fostering a dependance. Right? That, like, we had the goal of them going. And I do. You know, that’s also a value that I have. And I don’t know how you feel about the work you do, but I actually have that value too, in the work, the money skills work that I do. Right. Like, this is why I don’t offer endless coaching and like recurring programs, even though I have folks that I love to work with and I know who would like to work with me on a repeating basis, like I want to give you the skills that you jump out of the nest and you saw a way and I’m like, buh bye! Right? Like, I want other people to also be big. But I think it’s too, doing the work on myself and being okay with myself, taking up space and doing continued work to keep pushing those growing edges out further and further. That allows me to want my students to even grow beyond what I have accomplished. Yeah, but it’s, you know, there’s there’s work that has happened there. I’m curious, like, how do you do you have a relationship to that piece? 

Tiffany [00:36:20] I’m the opposite cause I’m psychoanalytic. So I’m like, I want to see my analyst two times a week at $325 for the rest of my life or hers, rest of her life, when she’s much older than me and not the rest of my life. Yeah, you’re going to have a problem. And that may change, actually. I’m sure as things change, I will leave her, but I don’t want even imagine it. So it’s definitely a different modality. 

Linzy [00:36:41] Just a different modality, Yeah. 

Tiffany [00:36:42] Thinking about even like currently I offer I don’t offer a forever program. Yeah, but seeing I’m thinking about offering something that goes on until I’m ready, like you said, to grow and change because it’s so hard to find continued community that is doing this work in this deep way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I often have therapists say this: in this program was the only place I found a community that is doing this. And in fact, I went into the limb community today. It’s in the mighty network. And I saw Texas live meet up, California zoom meeting. It was even seeing them. They are continuing on their own. And if there’s a way that I can continue to create a container that folks can continue to do this work, I haven’t come up with it. I don’t know if I can, but if I could, I would. 

Linzy [00:37:26] Well, and that is one of your superpowers for sure, is community building, like creating the space where folks can build community. I think like you are. You’re the best, Tiffany, I think in our space, I think that you are the best of that. So I think I also to give credit where credit is very, very due. I know you’re very, very good at that, at fostering those spaces for folks to make those connections. 

Tiffany [00:37:48] Thank you for saying that. And I think I’ve still, you know, this, Linzy, I have a son in preschool now and I’m like, I don’t know how to bust into this community. How do I make friends? So really, I do think that there’s a a creating a- continuing to create a space that I want and I can do it here and help other people do it as well. And therapists, it’s very difficult for us to have a space where we can not only feel supported and seen, but give and take critical feedback to help us grow. That’s a that is a thing that I really emphasize and that I’ve really worked on cultivating. Just like I want my therapist to do with your clients, folks, I want to be able to do it with each other. Colleagues.

Linzy [00:38:28] Have hard conversations.

Tiffany [00:38:29] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:38:32] Tiffany, Tiffany, this has been really wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me again on the podcast today. If folks want to find you, if they haven’t already, where is the best place for them to connect with you? 

Tiffany [00:38:46] I’ll get folks to places because you’re listening to a podcast right now. I encourage you to search the money sessions wherever you listen to podcasts. I no longer create that podcast, but there are something like 80 episodes where you can hear therapists literally having these conversations that Linzy and I are talking about how they implemented these things in their own practices and the difficulty of it and the challenge and the other side of it. You can go hear those stories today, and if you are in the place, we’re saying, I hear you where you are saying, I think I want to take the step, but I’m not sure. I encourage folks to check out our free workshop. You can go to Lean In Make Bank dot com forward slash workshop, and you can check out that workshop there. 

Linzy [00:39:33] Awesome. Thank you, Tiffany. 

Tiffany [00:39:36] Thanks. 

Linzy [00:39:50] Something that I appreciate so much about Tiffany. And I was thinking about it, you know, before we recorded it. You know, as Tiffany and I talked about, Christelle, my operations and marketing coordinator and I were talking about her just before Tiffany recorded, like, she’s so bold and unapologetic in her assertion that therapists deserve to be more than okay. And that does bring up kind of this conflict around her. I just really admire and love how she doesn’t waver. Like she’s just really – she’s on your side. Therapists and health practitioners who are listening, like she wants you to be more than okay. And I know that internally we can have parts of us that, you know, really get caught up and worried and guilty and unsure about what we deserve or what’s okay and accessibility. And like these are things where I think there’s lots of space to have nuanced conversation. But I just always appreciate how Tiffany, at the end of the day is just so clear that therapists deserve to be paid well for this work that we do, and then it’s valuable work, and that when we do step into a feature that meets our needs, it actually allows us to do the work better. Just so, so grateful to Tiffany for the work that she’s done in our space. And it’s, you know, you get to decide what you need, like she said, like there is no fee. You can go check out her fee calculator. It’s it’s a really great tool I think it was lean in make bank dot com slash fee calculator. Check out that tool. The number that you get is going to give you some idea of what it’s going to tell you what you need and that’s going to look different for everybody. Some people may find that that number is $300 an hour. Other folks, if you’re living in a more affordable place or if you have, you know, a joint income situation where you are not the main breadwinner in her family, it might be a much lower number and it might be a number that’s quite close to where you are. But getting clear about that number and taking those steps to actually have your needs met, it’s very powerful work. So I appreciate Tiffany coming on the podcast today. If you’d like to follow me on Instagram, you can find me @moneynutsandbolts. We post practical and emotional money content on there on the regular. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, you can use the gap between seasons now to take 3 minutes to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. You’re probably going to have several weeks to do this, but it only is going to take 3 minutes. So take 3 minutes now and leave a review of the podcast. Let folks know what episode you enjoyed or what you like about the podcast. That helps other therapists to find the podcast and be part of these conversations. Thank you so much for listening and making the podcast just the wonderful thing that it is. I love making it and I love hearing from you folks about the impact that it’s having for you. And we’ll be together soon again when Season six comes out. 

Brittany [00:00:02] I’m going to tell them during the consultation calls or whatever, like, my fee is 150. And leave it at that. 

Linzy [00:00:13] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today on the podcast, we have a coaching episode with Brittany. Brittany is a student of Money Skills. She’s about halfway through the course lessons and she is the owner and therapist behind Reflect to Grow Counseling. She loves to help her clients organize their thoughts, develop strategies to accomplish their goals, and she’s currently taking a postgrad class for fertility counseling with the intention of specializing in that field. And we do get into that in this episode. She has lots of experience working with people struggling with anxiety, LGBTQIA+ exploration, and perfectionism. And today in our conversation, Brittany and I got into a topic that I think so many therapists can relate to, which is feeling guilt at her fee. So Brittany and I talk about how she feels guilt charging her full fee, which is she’s aiming to charge a fee of 150 and all the obstacles that come up to that. And Brittany has identified that she needs to have at least half of her caseload on out of pocket at 150. She’s able to keep the other half at insurance and sliding scale, which is important to her. But is finding it’s very difficult to actually command that fee and and set that fee with people. And so we get today into some of the money stories underneath, that are some pieces about, you know, valuing our work. And if you’re a therapist who struggles to charge a fee or has struggled, there’s lots in this episode today, we kind of take a few different paths over the course of the episode. As the conversation unfolds, we end up in a nice, practical place. Here is my coaching episode with Brittany. So, Brittany, welcome to the podcast. 

Brittany [00:02:29] Thank you. It’s great to be here. 

Linzy [00:02:31] Yeah, it’s great to have you here. So you Brittany, you’ve worked kind of through like half way of Money Skills at this point, is that- just to give folks a sense of where you’re at? 

Brittany [00:02:40] Yes, I’m still working my way through. 

Linzy [00:02:43] Yes. Okay. So you’ve got some like you’ve done some kind of mindset work already, a little bit with the course, but you’re still building out systems and stuff like that. 

Brittany [00:02:52] Yes, exactly.  

Linzy [00:02:54] Okay. So for our time together today, Brittany, what did you want to get support on? 

Brittany [00:03:01] I would like to talk some more about the idea of charging full private pay fees and the guilt that I feel around that. And I know that’s a big topic in private practice industry these days. I see it a lot. 

Linzy [00:03:20] Oh, yes. 

Brittany [00:03:20] But it doesn’t do anything- I still feel immense guilt. So I kind of wanted to kind of explore that with you a little bit and see it ways to overcome it. 

Linzy [00:03:29] Okay. Okay. So to give me and the folks listening a sense like what is your full fee that you’re trying to charge. 

Brittany [00:03:36] 150 for 45 minutes sessions. 

Linzy [00:03:39] 150 for 45 minutes. Okay. And where are you at in terms of what most folks are paying? 

Brittany [00:03:45] So I take insurance. So it’s a majority of my caseload is insurance pays. And then I do have a few who are sliding scale for different reasons. And I have very few. Like the vast majority minority of my caseload is full fee.  

Linzy [00:04:07] Yeah. And with this, like, I’m curious about your vision and where you want to go. What do you want? Your kind of composition of your caseload to eventually look like when it comes to this stuff? 

Brittany [00:04:18] Oh, I would love to have over half my caseload be private pay full fee. And then the other less than half be insurance based plus sliding scale. 

Linzy [00:04:34] Okay. Okay. So you’re aiming for half private pay at that 150, and then the other half will still be insurance sliding scale. 

Brittany [00:04:42] Yeah, because I was doing the math and I would be in a much better place if that was the situation. 

Linzy [00:04:47] Right. Okay. Okay, great. And I love to hear the phrase, “I was doing the math”. That’s good. So, I mean, do you have a grounding, right? Like you understand what these numbers will actually mean for you? And this is the target you’re setting for yourself, which is great. Right. Okay. So tell me then about the guilt at the thought of charging your full fee. What is that like? 

Brittany [00:05:06] Okay, so I come from a more, let’s say, modest financial background. Growing up, I was very fortunate in the sense that therapy was always encouraged in my household and was just seen as a reality. So that is very, very fortunate. But at the same time, it was always insurance, like the idea of paying a mental health professional. Their full price is for the rich and for people with disposable income. And all of that kind of stuff was like it was never even a notion for things. I’ve heard about therapy kind of growing up and even in like early adulthood. So that’s kind of where I come from with all of it, where it’s like insurance covers mental health for a reason. And all of that kind of stuff. 

Linzy [00:06:00] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, first of all, it’s nice to hear you grew up in a pro therapy environment. That’s cool. But the idea is like, yeah, therapy is is should be covered by insurance. And let’s dig a little bit more into those stories about paying full fee for insurance. You said it’s for the rich. Tell me more about it. 

Brittany [00:06:18] Which I don’t believe currently, but I was kind of like. 

Linzy [00:06:20] Okay, but this is the story. 

Brittany [00:06:21] Yeah, yeah. That was kind of the message I would get because, you know, you would watch TV and it would be like the rich, the rich person paying for the fancy schmancy psychiatrist and the office kind of thing. And people I knew who would go to therapists, it would always be at a nonprofit clinic or something like that. I really didn’t become familiar with private pay therapists till I got into private practice myself. 

Linzy [00:06:49] Right. Okay. Okay. Yes. So you you said there that this isn’t quite what you believe now. Like you don’t believe now that therapy is for like that private pay is for the rich? 

Brittany [00:06:59] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:07:00] What do you believe now about private pay therapy? 

Brittany [00:07:03] I believe that it’s an investment. 

Linzy [00:07:05] Right? Okay. Yeah. So I’m hearing you have some positive beliefs about what private therapy can do. An investment means that there’s, like, value there. Right. There’s something that comes out of it. So tell me then, when you are going to thinking about moving to this space of charging full fee to half of your caseload or what comes up. 

Brittany [00:07:26] Because then. So it’s one of those things where looking at a big picture, just looking at the numbers, it sounds beautiful and it’s all perfect. And yes, it’s an investment and all that stuff. But then you look at the individual stories, and that’s where I get stuck. Because people are struggling out there. It’s a hard world out there. And even when I’ve had discussions with some sliding scale folks, it’s it’s been difficult conversations. It’s like some of my sliding scale folks are people whose insurance I did take initially. And then the insurance got changed for whatever reason and then they didn’t. Like, there are so many different stories out there. So I get stuck with the individual. I even find- even for when someone does have to go private pay, I’ll find myself volunteering a sliding scale. I mean, like, but where you don’t have to be the full 150 like whole job because I feel terrible myself. But yeah, I mean, let’s go from a $10 co-pay to now a 150. 

Linzy [00:08:28] Right. So you’re not even giving them the chance to express how they feel or to react or to even agree. You’re jumping in there and saying, but obviously you can’t afford that. That’s the message, right? Like. 

Brittany [00:08:40] But obviously, that’s insane. So. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:08:43] Right, right, right, right. Okay. Okay. And I am curious, like, where are the folks that are working for who are paying full fee? And I know it’s a very small number. What is that like for you and for them to be paying full fee? What do you notice? 

Brittany [00:08:57] Yeah, so actually initially for them too, I started doing a new system where my sliding scale fee is temporary and it and it last three months and then every three months we reassess. 

Linzy [00:09:08] Yes, yes, yes. 

Brittany [00:09:10] So I’ve noticed that typically everyone starts out with sliding scale because it’s just my system. It’s in my own- it’s amazing. I’ve noticed, even when starting off with sliding scale, like the clients who do pay full fee were okay with paying full fee, right? Like, yeah, that’s your fee. Yeah. And I even had one person say, like, it’s worth it to me. Yes. And I was like, Oh, like, that took me a back. 

Linzy [00:09:42] Right. Right. And can you take that in, like hearing one of your clients, like, not a hypothetical person, but like someone you really work with saying to you, it’s worth it? 

Brittany [00:09:54] It’s my initial response that even is like, That’s not true. That can’t be. It just me talking, which I think is a problem. 

Linzy [00:10:01] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. So what is your perception then, of the value of your work? 

Brittany [00:10:06] I have a very difficult time believing that sessions with me are worth over $100, even though they’re- like most of my clients are long term clients. I haven’t had openings in my caseload for months at this point, and even then I still have people emailing me, asking for openings. So like I have proof that people come back for one reason or another. But I still have a very difficult time believing that like I’m doing something good here and that I’m doing something valuable here. And that’s a me thing, and I recognize that. But all the same, it still affects my business. 

Linzy [00:10:42] Well, of course it’s a you thing. That’s why we’re here, right? We’re working on like, these deep stories that because this is really shaping how your practice looks at in turn, it’s shaping how your financial life looks. You know, you’re telling me if you can get to the point where half your caseload is at full fee and we’re not even talking about like your whole caseload and we’re not talking about a premium fee or all of these kind of other things, you know, we’re talking about half your caseload being full fee would dramatically change your financial picture. Right. But what’s in the way here is, by the sounds of it, you really owning the value of what you do. 

Brittany [00:11:16] Absolutely. And I’m also at a point to where I hope and plan to hire a therapist to work under me. But I really need to work through my own stuff first before I could be a leader for others. 

Linzy [00:11:29] Yes. Yeah. If you want to be able to model somebody owning the value of their work and it’s very wise, I’m glad to hear you say that you want to do this work before you start mentoring, you know, somebody else in such a close way. So with this, then I’m curious. And you know, we’re going to be really vague here because we don’t want to give to anything that could be identifying, obviously. Yes. But I’m curious, like, can you think about a moment where you really felt the impact of the work that you were doing with someone like one of those like, magical sessions? Can you think of any of those, like magical sessions where you’re just like, sometimes I know from for me, when I was practicing therapy, there was sometimes be an eye outside of myself being like, Whoa, this is like, profound. Yeah, the part that’s watching the work. Do you have any kind of memories like that that you can connect with? 

Brittany [00:12:16] It’s very hard to think of, like on the spot. Yeah, but I get those moments a lot where I’ll just be like, Where the hell did that come from? Right? A moment. 

Linzy [00:12:27] So, yes, when you say, Where the hell did that come from, do you mean something that you’ve done or said? 

Brittany [00:12:32] That has been something that I said that I would never say to myself with my own problem. Right. Of course. It’s like magically came out of my mouth. 

Linzy [00:12:38] You’re like, Oh, she’s good, right? And so those moments then, like, if we can connect to one of them for you, like what is the emotion that goes with those moments that I’m hearing happen? 

Brittany [00:12:51] Often it feels like elation, like I’m so proud of myself in that moment of like, Oh my God, I did choose the right career path and I am doing what I’m supposed to do, but it doesn’t last long. The feeling. But like it’s there temporarily. 

Linzy [00:13:05] Yeah. Yeah. So that elation – and if we can just stay with that elation for a minute, you know, like what’s happening in your body when you are elated. 

Brittany [00:13:13] It’s like the opposite of the dread you feel and stomach. It’s like instead of, like, the heavy feeling in the stomach, it’s like a little lightness in the stomach. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s kind of just like an absolutely just like, lightness that just feels feels wonderful. 

Linzy [00:13:27] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:13:28] I never realized that before. Thank you for asking it. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:13:32] So, you know, with that lightness, you know, that elation that like, well, I’m like, I’m in the right place. I’m doing the right work. From that place. Brittany, how much would you say a session with you is worth? 

Brittany [00:13:47] Guess at least 100. 

Linzy [00:13:49] So you dropped right away. Your energy was totally changed. What just happened? 

Brittany [00:13:54] I don’t know. I think a lot of it, I think, has to do with the whole notion of, like, helping people and, like, the whole notion of like, I heard recently from – I don’t know where – the concept of like pink collar, instead of blue collar, where pink collar like women aren’t. Yeah, I yeah, there are so many new terms coming out that start with. 

Linzy [00:14:15] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:14:16] But that’s when I heard was like teaching and helping professions and counseling was like, well, we should be helping if we have that demeanor and especially for females and whatnot. And I’m always stuck with like, well, of course I should be helping people if I have that skill. But then it’s like, but why shouldn’t I be able to make a good living off of it and like own a house one day, kind of live off of it. Right. 

Linzy [00:14:42] Yeah. And it’s a good question. Why shouldn’t you be able to make a good living and buy a house one day off of this? I would dare to say this gift that you have on top of all the training that you do, right. Because I will say, like, the work that we do, Brittany, it’s like there’s lots of training that goes into it. We spend lots of money to get here, you know, there’s all the little things then we’ve also made. But I will say, I do think that the best therapists have a natural gift that others couldn’t learn, right? It’s like if you have that that attunement and that natural empathy and just that like immense intuition, I think most people come into the work because they have that and it’s not something that somebody else could learn in school right now. 

Brittany [00:15:24] I mean, it’s true. 

Linzy [00:15:24] Yeah. You know, so, so thinking about all of that together, like, why shouldn’t you be able to make a good living off of the work you do? 

Brittany [00:15:33] I guess there is no reason ultimately. 

Linzy [00:15:36] Well, is there a reason inside? There’s some sort of objection here internally. And I know logically it might not make sense, but I’m wondering, like, what is maybe the illogical objection inside that makes it hard to even say that you should be getting paid $100 for this, like life changing work. 

Brittany [00:15:53] Because then I keep thinking, I don’t know, like the economy is so rough out there, the world is freaking hard out there. And so then I keep thinking of like, Wow, what about people who can’t afford it? But then again, like I do offer a sliding scale for people who can’t afford it. I’m not taking that away completely. I’m just talking about for people who can’t afford it. And there are people who could afford it. 

Linzy [00:16:17] Yeah. And you know, something that I think about too, Brittany and I’ve noticed in some clinicians there’s like less flexibility around this than I certainly used to have when I was practicing, is you can set your price and your clients can determine what they can afford, which could also look like a weekly client goes down to biweekly. Or like I remember I had this client who did not make very much money and they worked, you know, like as a kind of educational assistant role. And that’s an underpaid role. Pink collar. If we want to have a pink collar, that’s another one. And they had been doing therapy for a long time, but knew that they needed like EMDR processing. And I believe my fee at that time would have been 150. Same fee you’re talking about. And so they would come once a month for therapy. That’s what was in their budget. But when they came that once a month, they worked so frickin hard and they came ready being like, okay, this is what I know. It’s the month, this is what I want to work on. I want to keep doing this work that we did or I want to pick up on this new thing that came up, or I need to talk about this experience that’s happening. And they worked so hard and used that time with such intention and empowerment that in some ways it was like in that one session we would get done what someone else might get done in a whole month because they really owned the work? I wasn’t holding the responsibility for the work. They were responsible for the work and like they knew my skill set and what there was to do. But it was like this real like shared ownership of I was bringing my best to the table, but they were also bringing their best to the table, right, in this shared project that we had of like healing from trauma. And I’m curious like, how does that kind of idea sit with you that your clients can also like step up and take responsibility and solve problems when you set your boundary around what you’re able to? We’re able to charge, and I’m saying in your case, what you’re able to because I know that you’re talking about just getting to like a reasonable standard of living, right? Like we’re not talking at this point – and that could be a whole other conversation – we’re not talking about like luxury and travel and expansiveness or any of those kinds of things. Like we’re talking about being able to buy a house one day. 

Brittany [00:18:21] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:18:22] Okay. So if that’s a boundary for you, I’m curious, what do you think about the idea that your clients could rise to meet that boundary? 

Brittany [00:18:29] Yeah. That does make sense. I think it’s going to be one of those things where it’s going to be really difficult in the moment. I think it will be easier to try with new clients in the future that I get, to kind of just start like off the board like this. This is the-. 

Linzy [00:18:46] Like starting off on the right foot. Yeah. Mm hmm. 

Brittany [00:18:49] Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:50] Mm hmm. 

Brittany [00:18:51] With current clients, I really just don’t feel so comfortable with most of them doing that. And also, I’m not so sure that that’s a bad thing. Like, right now, I’m at the lowest. The amount of sliding scale clients I have right now is the lowest it’s been since I started my private practice. And I foresee that going further down, depending on whether insurance situations change and whatnot. So my thought process as of now is kind of having my sliding scale list closed. Right. Like, no more, no more spots. 

Linzy [00:19:25] No more sliding scale. Yeah. 

Brittany [00:19:26] Which is true, because I literally don’t have any more spots left in my client list.  And then just insurance clients I get. I have a lot of struggle with insurance clients who then change to an insurance they don’t take. But that’s a different thing to kind of be even in that situation. Like this is my new fee and I could help you find a therapist who does take your new insurance if that’s an issue. Which which will- is so hard to do. 

Linzy [00:19:51] But yeah. And what is hard about that. 

Brittany [00:19:54] Is that my clients, I don’t know, I feel like I work with people long term and I feel like I know them as well as one could know another person for the most part. And I enjoy- I genuinely enjoy working with my people. So that’s always hard when it’s like, well, let’s talk about maybe switching to a different therapist, but I think I’m going to try that in the future for those kinds of for those kinds of situations. 

Linzy [00:20:19] Yeah. You know, with that Brittany, I wonder to kind of turn over that coin and look at the other side. What can be good about somebody starting to work with a new therapist? 

Brittany [00:20:30] Oh, there are a lot of positives about it, but a lot of times too, it’s that the client is is hesitant to do that for whatever reason. 

Linzy [00:20:38] Yeah, they’re meeting somebody new. Stranger danger. Starting over. 

Brittany [00:20:41] Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, it’s not something I’ve really done in the past, but I’m open to trying. Going forward. 

Linzy [00:20:48] You know, it makes me wonder, then, in terms of beliefs, too, do you believe that other people can be as helpful to your clients as you can? 

Brittany [00:20:55] Oh, totally. Completely. Even better. 

Linzy [00:20:58] Okay. So that’s also something to, I think, connect with, you know, when these kinds of scenarios come up of like, you don’t take their insurance anymore, you’re not going be putting them on your sliding scale. And so it’s going to be a discussion of this is my fee or I’m happy to help you find someone else, is remembering there might be someone else who has a totally different angle than you get into something that is just not territory that you’re interested in or would have naturally taken them. The good things that can come from folks seeing multiple therapists over time. 

Brittany [00:21:26] Right. Yeah, that’s a good point. I could bring that up with with clients. A lot of times clients are just, like, hesitant to change. 

Linzy [00:21:34] Yeah. 

Brittany [00:21:35] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:36] Yeah. And, you know, I’ve closed my practice a couple of times. I closed my practice when I went on my maternity leave. And then I, like, closed my practice more full stop when I came back and was seeing a handful of clients. And I remember one of my clients saying to me, like, you know, that her family member said, like, well, maybe you’ll find someone even better. And she was like, I don’t know if I can. And I said, You might. Like, you’re going to find someone different. Right? And like, there’s always going to be therapists out there who work differently than we work and like, yeah, open like a new chapter in that person’s healing. But again, it’s just not work we would have done with them. And so that is something that I certainly talk to my clients about with closing things down is, you know, there’s going to be things that you and I have missed working on for years because I have a blind spot. Right. Or like you haven’t felt comfortable telling me or whatever. Right. Or it’s not a type of work that I do, that someone else is going to be able to get into with you. So the opportunities that come when somebody switches to a new therapist are also I find helpful for having those conversations. Obviously, not to dismiss the grief and all of those things that also. But of course. 

Brittany [00:22:35] Yeah, but that makes sense though. Like I think- 

Linzy [00:22:38] With endings come new beginnings. So coming back then to your work, like I’m hearing a decision to not add more folks to your sliding scale, your sliding scale is full. But also we started this conversation by talking about how you want to get to the point of getting to half your caseload being full fee. So let’s talk about that, what that road can look like for you. How do you actually want to start to make the changes to get to that place in your practice? 

Brittany [00:23:04] That’s where I get stuck because I have all these grand ideas. But actually like getting there is a whole thing in itself ultimately right now. I mean, my caseload is closed. I anticipate probably reopening it in like a couple of months or so based on just like for summaries and closures and all that. I’m working on improving my marketing to get clients who aren’t looking specifically for insurance based therapy. I’m I’m actually on a postgrad course now trying to work toward a specialty. So I need to kind of up my marketing around that specialty. So I’m working on a specialization in infertility and loss, perinatal mental health, maternal mental health, maternal mental health. That whole realm. 

Linzy [00:23:53] Yes. 

Brittany [00:23:54] Yes, yes. Specializing in infertility and loss. So I’m in a postgrad course for that now. And for that I feel like that is worth more like a more premium fee. So that is something that’s a specific specialization that I would like to be studying. 

Linzy [00:24:09] Yes, absolutely. 

Brittany [00:24:11] I need to work on really improving my marketing to reflect that specialization because I am like at it. I’ve done like a maybe a handful of people in the population. 

Linzy [00:24:21] Yeah, they can’t find you yet. 

Brittany [00:24:23] Oh, they’re not. Yes. Okay. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:24:25] So attracting those folks in and owning this is a specialization. And I will say as someone who has sought those services before, they’re very hard to find and it’s hard to find someone good. And so folks who are looking for you and who find you and you both do the work that they do and it feels like a personal fit are going to highly value what you do, right? It’s such it’s such a specialized niche. So I would say that you’re kind of on the horizon is like you’re going to have this specialty, you’re going to be marketing towards those folks. What about, I guess, what is the timeline on that, Brittany? 

Brittany [00:24:54] So my course will be ending in May. And I mean, it’s more of an ongoing thing where something I’m just continually educating myself. Yes, but I feel like I’ll have the confidence to say, like, I studied this in a postgraduate course. 

Linzy [00:25:07] You’ll be ready. Ta-da. Yes. Okay. 

Brittany [00:25:10] After May, I’ll be like, magically, like. 

Linzy [00:25:12] Roll out the carpet. 

Brittany [00:25:13] Yes, Yes. 

Linzy [00:25:14] Okay. And that’s not very long from now. So that actually sounds like I was thinking you were talking something like kind of far off. But no, that’s actually in the next. It’s in a month in a bit. So with that in mind, then. What I’d like you to think about is what is your goal to get to that half of your caseload being full fee and then reverse engineering? Here’s what the steps I’m going to take, because what I- what I’m feeling in you as we’re talking is I am feeling this like, yeah, that’s good. Kind of like I’m not I’m not feeling action yet. Right. I’m still kind of feeling a contemplation energy from you. Is that accurate? 

Brittany [00:25:50] Accurate. Yes, totally. Well, you’re on that. You’re you’re on point. 

Linzy [00:25:53] Yeah. Okay. So I’m curious then, like, what do you think you need to get you connected- keep you connected to the value of the work that you’re doing, that kind of like elation and also owning this new niche. How do you actually take these things so they help you make the changes you want to make to get your practice to where you need it to be financially? 

Brittany [00:26:15] I think kind of thing that comes to mind is that I’m going to need to change my referral source completely because all of my referral sources are insurance based or all of them are like, the first question is like, whatever. They’re very intertwined with insurance. So that’s kind of like if you see the kind of like contemplation on my face, which like I could kind of feel it’s between us like, well, how on earth do I find how on earth do I find new clients then? But that’s something that comes with more experience, more marketing that that realm of things. 

Linzy [00:26:50] Yes. And that networking piece, I mean, I, I really like humans, so I get really excited about networking because I’m like, oh, to meet new people. But it makes me think about, you know, who in your community is interfacing with those folks that you want to be serving that you can grab a tea with, take out for lunch, you know, like connect with this, start to build those referral sources, right. Like other folks who are supporting one of them, fertility naturopaths, like fertility clinics themselves. I know like I went through IVF with my son and since then, and so I know my clinic actually had a therapist that they was associated with the clinic who didn’t work for them but who they made referrals to. And she- 

Brittany [00:27:34] Oh wow. 

Linzy [00:27:34] -Was not good. 

Brittany [00:27:35] Oh. 

Linzy [00:27:36] So it’s like it makes you think about all the folks who would have, like, seen her like I did for one session. I was like, Well, that was an experience. I never went back. If you could be associated with a fertility clinic, as just- if you’re like, Hey, if you have folks who are like, you know, walking this road and having a hard time, send them to me. They they have literally hundreds of clients going through that process like every week, you know? So it’s like my brain goes to like all these places, you know, that I’ve been and that women that I know who have, you know, walked this road have been that with women. Women would be so excited to get your name and know about your services. 

Brittany [00:28:14] Yeah. And I even spoke with an acupuncturist recently who does infertility acupuncture, and she doesn’t take insurance and she’s like, Oh, I have tons of clients. You’re right. So I think just more networking. 

Linzy [00:28:23] Those are the people to talk to. Yes, right. And so, yeah, it is, you know, in a sense, Brittany, like what you’re talking about is rebranding your practice. Right? And when I say that, I don’t mean that you have to do like a fancy, beautiful, multi-thousand dollar website overhaul or anything like that. But like, you are changing your what you’re doing, right, and you’re going to have to change in that, how you talk about what you’re doing, who you’re connecting with, and like, to me it sounds like that work needs to be done because I also- but here’s the thing. Mm hmm. How do we make sure that when those women come to you, that you you offer them your full fee? 

Brittany [00:28:58] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:28:59] That you don’t talk yourself down, right? How can you commit to making sure that your full fee is actually what those women hear about? And you don’t take away the opportunity for them to pay you that? 

Brittany [00:29:11] That’s something I don’t have an answer for. I’m going to try my best to stay strong on that and keep a picture of the overall goal. 

Linzy [00:29:21] Yes. Part of this, Brittany, I think, is like, this is a fake it till you make it piece. Right. We need to give them the chance to show you that they value what you do. And so there’s just a behavioral piece here where I wonder what would happen is when a new woman calls you and she says, Hey, my acupuncturist told me about you. I’d really like to see you. You just say, Yeah, I would love to work with you. My fee is 150 an hour. Stop talking. Can you imagine yourself being able to do that? 

Brittany [00:29:47] Yeah. Yeah, I can. 

Linzy [00:29:50] Because when we stop talking, we give them a chance to actually respond, and most of the time they’re going to take a half a breath and say, okay, that sounds good. When are you available? We let them be in charge of the conversation, like, we like, we give them empowerment in that way, right? Rather than us deciding what they can afford to pay. 

Brittany [00:30:08] Right. 

Linzy [00:30:09] Right. Well, what do you notice in your body thinking about just doing that when when people start to call you because you’re going to make some great connections. Yeah. And just stating your fee and just ending the sentence there. 

Brittany [00:30:19] It’s totally against my nature because I just tend to try to fill up the silence, which is a clinical thing that I’m trying to work on anyway. But at the same time, like it makes sense that that’s a really solid idea, a really solid plan of action to just kind of shut myself up. 

Linzy [00:30:40] To stop talking. 

Brittany [00:30:41] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah. And then with that too, you know, you can also keep your eye on your sliding scale list and you will know if you have a spot available or not. Like what I’m hearing with a lot of this is what I get from you is like, you’re very caring, you’re really empathetic, you really like, feel your client’s hardships. Right? But sometimes with that, we can underestimate our client’s abilities to solve problems. Like there’s there’s almost like a little bit of like a codependence piece that can happen there where we like. We want to prevent any kind of discomfort from them or any kind of friction. But like you are working with adults and if you’re moving into, you know, as you continue moving this, like work with infertility, like you’re working with adults who’ve, like solved a lot of problems, navigating a lot of systems, and like, yeah, you know, I think there’s a lot that comes from just believing that our clients are competent. 

Brittany [00:31:31] Yeah, you’re right. 

Linzy [00:31:33] So with this, then, you know, we’ve kind of we’ve walked a couple paths in this conversation. So what is your action plan? What’s happening next after our conversation? 

Brittany [00:31:43] I think next steps are. To work on my networking more decide which local institutions, professionals, whatnot. I would like to get in contact with. And that also includes, like, working on marketing, boring marketing stuff like making business cards that are physical and go with a QR code that goes to my website and kind of- I don’t know, I’m sorry, you’re like, hitting right on my issue. Like I’m good at seeing the big picture where I want to be. I struggle so much between like getting there. 

Linzy [00:32:26] So yes. Yeah. And these are great steps. So you’re going to create a new referral network. And what I would suggest Brittany is, if this is an area where you’re just like gah, like, you know, you’re kind of like holding your head a little bit right now. It’s break it down, then, into those walkable steps. Right? So, like, what is the first step? Maybe the first step is generate a list of like ten people that, you know, work with folks that you want to be supporting more and reach out to five of them to start. And then you reach out to five the following week, making an ask of, Can I connect with you? I’d be happy to connect over coffee or tea or lunch. I’d be happy to come to your space. You know, like think about, you know, with the folks that you’re connecting with, what’s going to be an easy, natural way for them to want to connect, letting them know the value of I serve, you know, families who are going through these things. I’m perinatal mental health, I’m doing continued specialization, and I’m opening more and more space to serve these folks at my practice. And I would love to support the folks that you support with the emotional side of of the path that they’re walking. Right? You’re letting them know the value, right? If their clients are getting emotional support and aren’t crying in their office and are able to, like, think clearly and make good decisions and show up for their appointments and all that stuff, everybody’s better off for it, right? So it’s part of it is thinking about that. So I’m hearing that. And then you were mentioning a second step of like making business cards, so it’s easy for folks to access you. I would say that that’s something that’s like helpful but not essential in today’s day and age. I think it’s more helpful that you make good relationship with someone who’s going to be like, I know the perfect person for you. It’s Brittany, I’m going to give you her name. Here’s her website. And those people are just going to happen over their phone or like save a note in their phone and go online when they get home. And so I think in terms of like the most important tasks, it’s making those referral relationships right now. 

Brittany [00:34:16] That’s a good point. And yeah, that’s absolutely doable. 

Linzy [00:34:19] Yeah. And then after that, when people call to book, what are you going to do? 

Brittany [00:34:26] Well, I actually have a virtual assistant I started working with, so I’ll let her know as well which life changer. But aside from that, I’m going to tell them during the consultation calls or whatever, like my fee is 150, leave it at that. 

Linzy [00:34:42] Great. Good. And how does that feel to say that? 

Brittany [00:34:46] Immediately I start having questions come up like what if? What if they do have an insurance that I actually do take? What if they are all these things? 

Linzy [00:34:57] Yeah. And you also take insurance. So, you know, it could be a phrase of I take the following insurances or my out-of-pocket fee is 150. End of sentence. Right. And let that sit like I think part of what it sounds like the work that you have to do is letting people show you that they’re actually happy to pay your fee. And if they’re not happy to pay your fee at 150 and they’re not on the insurances that you take, then you know it’s not a right fit. Right. And they’ll find someone else who is the right fit. 

Brittany [00:35:23] Right. 

Linzy [00:35:24] Right. So with this Brittany, I can feel there’s more digging into to do. But we do have like this action steps for you. 

Brittany [00:35:31] Absolutely. 

Linzy [00:35:32] What are you taking away from our conversation today? 

Brittany [00:35:34] A lot of confidence, actually. I was so nervous going into this as, you know, like the first thing when you were like, how are you? I was like, I’m so nervous. I’m actually feeling really confident now. I’m I’m grateful for this coaching call. Like, maybe my sessions are worth that price and maybe people will pay that money and maybe, maybe we will own a house one day. Like, I don’t know, it gives me, like, kind of hopeful energy. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:36:04] Yeah. And if there’s a part of you that’s able to, like, collect evidence, I’m going to ask that part of you to, like, collect those moments when you’re just like, in the flow in session and you’re just like, Whoa, I’m in the right place doing the right work. Like, collect that evidence and like, let the words sink in. When you do have clients, say things like, of course your fee is worth it. I think there’s a lot more evidence there than you’re probably taking into your body, but as much as possible trying to actually absorb that because I think it’s plentiful of evidence that people are very happy to pay you 150. 

Brittany [00:36:38] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:36:39] Well, thank you so much, Brittany, for coming on the podcast today. 

Brittany [00:36:42] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

Linzy [00:36:57] In my conversation with Brittany today, a familiar piece, you know, that I’ve seen in myself and so many therapists is how in a certain sense, we can underestimate our clients. Right. That like jumping too quickly, you know, saying our fee and then jumping to quickly offer the sliding scale. I know it’s something that lots of therapists do. We can really sometimes in seeing their struggles and in knowing what’s hard and sitting in that with them or knowing that we’re about to or knowing a bit of their story when we’re having those first conversations of setting the fee, It’s easy to underestimate that someone who struggles and is going through maybe a hard journey or has had losses or trauma also is someone who can solve their own problems and show up and make good decisions for their life and decide how to spend their money. Those things can coexist. And I think as therapists, because we sit so much with the vulnerability of our clients, it’s easy to forget that they also have jobs that they might be really good at and they can earn money, or they have family who can help, like they can solve problems. And when we jump in and try to solve problems for them, especially around fear, before they even name that as a problem, or you can express that they can’t solve the problem. Not only are we undercutting ourselves because this is somebody that might happily pay you your full fee and now instead you’ve negotiated a lower fee with them. But also we’re not letting them function as adults and and let us know what is possible for them and let them make an empowered decision or have a, you know, grounded conversation with us about their needs to see if we can find some sort of center point. So it’s you know, it’s a challenge I think we have as therapist because of the role that we play. But I always find it helpful to think about the resilience of our clients, think about the stories that they tell us of things that are going well, and remember that we only see such a small slice of their life and we see generally the hardest emotions and we hear the hardest stories and we don’t see all those other parts of them that sometimes are like kicking butt at life or figuring things out, you know, with great competency at the same time as they also have something that they’re they’re working through with us. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I say it all the time. I know, but I want you to hear it. If you enjoy the podcast, I would super appreciate if you could jump over to Apple Podcasts for I think it would take you literally 90 seconds and leave a review for the podcast. It is the best way for other therapists to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Julie [00:00:02] I don’t want business owners to live on leftovers because business ownership is a lot of work. It is so much work. And you deserve more than than leftovers. 

 

Linzy [00:00:13] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today I have a returning guest, but she’s returning with a book under her belt. Julie Herres has written the book Profit First for Therapists, and she’s here to talk to us about it today. She is an expert in profit. First as an accountant, she uses it with her clients who are, I think, exclusively, if not mostly therapists. She’s the founder of Green Oak Accounting, which is the country’s largest firm serving the mental health industry. She’s an accountant, she’s a consultant, she’s a speaker and now an author of Profit First for Therapists. And she’s also the host of the Therapy for Your Money podcast. So today, Julia and I got into profit first. So if you’ve heard about profit first but have been like, what is that? Or if you’re already doing profit first. Either way, there’s lots here for you. Julian I get into taxes and profit first and how that can be confusing. She goes over the basic principles of profit first, which, like really do connect to human behavior and what tends to drive us and make us tick and how we tend to respond to certain situations. She really explains why profit first works with people as they are, and we get into what to do if your numbers are not where you want them to be, where can you start to actually start to get your numbers in your business? The amount that’s going towards your paycheck and operating expenses and you’re pretty aside for taxes. How do you get from where you are now, which is maybe a place that is not working to the numbers that are actually going to work for your business? Here’s my conversation with Julie Herres. So, Julie, welcome back to the podcast. 

 

Julie [00:02:22] Hey, how are you? 

 

Linzy [00:02:23] I’m good. How are you? 

 

Julie [00:02:24] Good, good. 

 

Linzy [00:02:25] So since we spoke last, you have been a little bit busy. 

 

Julie [00:02:31] A lot of a lot of fun things in the work. 

 

Linzy [00:02:34] A lot of fun things. And one of those things is that you’ve written the book, I would say the profit first book for therapists, a profit first for therapists is coming out May 2nd. Do I have that right? 

 

Julie [00:02:46] Yeah, May 2nd it will be out. It is available for pre-sale today, but it it will be out in the world, what I call affectionately my fourth child. Profit first for for therapists. The book. 

 

Linzy [00:02:58] Yes, a very cute name for that fourth child, I have to say. Very sweet. So I’m really excited about this book because you and I are both profit first fans. We both like use it and teach it and teach therapists how to use it. And now you’ve actually put your knowledge and expertise like into a book that folks will just be able to buy and read and absorb it all, even if they never, you know, work with either of us. Yeah. Which is a beautiful gift to the world. 

 

Julie [00:03:25] I’m so excited to get this out into the world. This book was for sure a labor of love. But I. I kept going back before I started writing to Why me? Why should we want to write this book? Like, why would I? And then. But the answer was like, It has to be me. That was my answer to myself. Like I have so much knowledge from implementing over and over again. Like I want to get this information out into the world because it’s so transformational for so many practices. It gave me changing completely. 

 

Linzy [00:03:56] So, yes, yes, I love that because you as an accountant, you really like get the rules and the system. But you specialize in working with therapists. So you also really see how this applies to like our business model and who therapists tend to be as people. 

 

Julie [00:04:10] Yeah, definitely. And obviously I’m an accountant based in the US, but I, I also knew, you know, this book is so important. I need to put all the basics of profit first. I need you to put like the very therapy-specific items in there. But I also knew that most practitioners needed other stuff too. Yeah. So I talk about scaling, I talk about hiring admin team member, clinical team members, leadership. I talk about the emotional side of profit first and kind of that journey that people go through. But I also included some tax basics because these are the things that I feel like people need. Yeah, So whether they’re ready for them right now or later, like you kind of have everything you need for the financial side of your practice within that one book. 

 

Linzy [00:04:49] So exciting. Okay, so which I take two steps back because we’re nerding it about something we’re excited about, but what is profit first for folks who are listening, who are not familiar with it? 

 

Julie [00:04:59] Yes, so profit first. The original book was written in 2016/17 by Mike Michalowitz. It’s the the premise of profit first that the whole system. Right. It’s ultimately a financial system for cash management. What profit first does is it turns the accounting equation upside down. So if anyone has ever looked at a profit and loss or an income statement, which hopefully listener if you own a business, you have you have hopefully looked at the accounting equation on the profit and losses. Income minus expenses equals profit, right? That is the basic accounting equation. What profit first does is it turns that equation upside down where we look at income minus profit equals your expenses. And so that one shift right there, carving out the profit first, as the name implies, means that then instead of taking the profit at the end, as the left over whatever’s left, that’s going to be the profit. You’re being intentional about allocating funds to profit and then whatever’s left, that’s where you have to run your business. And so for most practitioners, if you can run your business on $1,000, you probably can run your business on $950, right? If we carve it out at the front. But if you just wait for that to be left, that’s not always the case. 

 

Linzy [00:06:17] Yes. Yeah. And I love that the flipping of the equation, you know, and this is Mike’s kind of this is the idea he introduced into accounting because I have I’ve noticed as a business owner and maybe even experience this to Julie like it is so easy to spend money in your business. So there’s just something about our business. It’s like something about, well, you’re spending to make money. Like I will think about buying things in my business that I would really pause or never buy out of my personal household. There is something just very easy about spending money in a business, which means if we don’t have boundaries around it, we can end up spending so much that we end up taking very little home like the profit we end up getting like the crumbs. Yes. 

 

Julie [00:07:00] Yeah. And that’s why I like the term leftovers where it’s kind of because it’s not intent. The flipped over is not intentional. It just happens to be there. Right? Right. It’s kind of an accident. Like, oh, we made too much soup today. Now we have leftovers. Like, it’s not that. That’s not- I don’t want business owners to live on leftovers because this ownership is a lot of work. It is all it is so much work. And you deserve more than than leftovers. I like to tell the story of my my mother was a serial entrepreneur, loved just the starting of a business. And so what I know now as an adult is when she would say like, Oh, you know, Julie, you’ve got to spend money to make money. She was about to buy something she could not afford. That typically was kind of the the Q in our household. So whenever I find myself like, oh saying that where you got to spend money to make money, I kind of go back and think to myself, Am I just saying that to justify this expense or is this actually going to have an ROI, a return on investment? Like, does this actually make sense? Because I agree it’s easy. It’s easy in the business to justify like you do have to make investments, but not every investment is worth your money. 

 

Linzy [00:08:05] Absolutely. Yes. So okay, so profit first, then flips that equation. 

 

Julie [00:08:10] Right? 

 

Linzy [00:08:10] We’re no longer profits, no longer the leftover. Now, expenses are the thing that is more boundary metered. I don’t know how to describe that. 

 

Julie [00:08:18] Boundary does- is a good is a good way to put it so that there are four core principles within profit first and I think if I go over those that then the leftover piece will make a little bit more sense. But core principle number one is you use a small plate. And so I will be the first to say I’m not a nutrition expert, I’m a financial. But there are a lot of similarities in the way that humans make decisions about money and about food, Right? Because it’s not about like the big sweeping decision of, you know, I’m going to spend less than I make. Right. That’s easy to say. But the proof is in the pudding. Of all the hundreds of micro-decisions that you make every single day. So that’s ultimately how people make decisions about money. And so I know for me, I was born in the generation of finish your plate. So whether I eat from a large play or a small plate, I’m most likely going to finish my plate unless I spend a whole lot of mental energy thinking about it, right? Deciding like, am I finishing the vegetable or that or the protein or What am I leaving? How much do they have? One more bite that takes a lot of mental energy for me. And so I just know when I eat from a smaller plate, I’m naturally going to eat less. And so within profit, first those smaller plates are bank accounts. We use multiple bank accounts to create smaller plates for ourselves. Yeah. So those bank accounts are going to be, for example, an income account where all the money comes into the business, coming into the business, goes into that income account, then we have a profit account, as you can imagine, right? That where there’s money earmarked for profit, then we have an account for operating expenses. That’s all the things like liability insurance, dues and subscriptions, software. Then we have an account earmarked for owner’s pay. That’s how much the owner pays themselves, right? That’s super important. Then we have an account earmarked for tax as well, where the business is able to pay taxes on your behalf. And then last but not least, an account for payroll as well. So I’m a firm believer if you have a team, that you should have a separate payroll account. So whether that’s contractors or employees, admin, clinical, whatever, a payroll account can be really helpful. So by separating that money onto those smaller plates, that really helps us see the how much is actually available for you to spend. So you’re not accidentally spending next quarter’s tax payment or you’re spending the money that’s actually earmarked for payroll next week. Right. So you know what actually is available to you. 

 

Linzy [00:10:46] Yes. Yeah. And the word for me for profit first, always with those separate accounts is clarifying. Yes. It’s just so clarifying. And even if you don’t like what you see, at first, it’s just very clear what money is actually for what. And even if you want to steal from yourself or do it differently, you’re it’s very clear that that is what you are doing when you do have your money actually separated like this. 

 

Julie [00:11:08] Absolutely. Like you can- because most humans will will look at their bank app on their phone right. Like or log in on the computer. That’s how most people do things, including me. Right? I’m an accountant and I don’t look at the profit and loss of balance sheet, the statement of cash flow, before I decide if I can spend something right. So you’re taking a natural human behavior and you’re just leveraging that instead of trying to change it. 

 

Linzy [00:11:29] Yes. 

 

Julie [00:11:29] So principle number two is you serve sequentially, right? So you have all of those bank accounts on a regular basis. You’re going to move money from that income account to the other bank accounts. And you’re doing that in a way that is sequential. We tend to attribute importance to things that happen first. So. The profit allocation comes first when you’re making transfers to those accounts without necessarily looking at your bills or what is due. So that because your bank is going to your bank accounts are going to tell you something, they’re going to give you information when you go to pay those bills. Principle number three. So we remove temptation. And this one, I feel like is really important. They’re all important. But this one, this one is. I can’t tell you as as an accountant, like, how many times I’ve encountered a client who cannot pay their tax bill. Right. Where they- we get to April. And it’s just not it’s just not doable. They maybe someone that just started their business just came to us like maybe in February or March, like the year is already over and we’re doing their tax prop 8, and they owe, you know, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on the size of a business. Yeah. And it is always I always have a pit in my stomach when I see someone who just is blindsided by that because it just doesn’t have to be that way. Right. And and so by moving that money over, by having allocation, by having a separate bank account, it’s really, really hard to accidentally spend that money. Right. It’s there. It’s allocated. I know some of our clients will call that bank account, like Uncle Sam’s money or, you know, something just funny. But you clearly know when you’re looking at your bank. Yeah, there’s money in there that is not yours, that is already someone else’s who you cannot and should not spend it. And it’s such an anchoring thought, but there’s also so much relief when you get to that time of the year and you already have enough money to pay everything like that. That’s the the opposite end of that, where we remove the temptation to accidentally spend that money accidentally or on purpose. But and it’s there to take care of you. And I love that piece of, of profit first as well. 

 

Linzy [00:13:46] Yeah. 

 

Julie [00:13:47] And then last but not least, principle number four is you enforce a rhythm, right? So kind of like going back to nutrition. You do have to eat on a regular basis or you’re going to be starving. You might not make the best food choices, or at least that that’s how I operate. Yes. And so on a regular basis. Right. Your money, your business needs money to survive. It’s like the nutrition for your business. And so on a regular basis, you have to feed it and give it money. And so on a regular basis, you’re moving money from your income account to your other accounts. And for a lot of our clients, we recommend starting with a weekly transfer. And that’s not part of the core profit first principles, right? That that in the in the original book that was twice a month on the 10th and the 25th and I think that can work really well. But what I kept seeing over and over again in implementation is unless you have enough money to really fund those accounts upfront, it’s really hard to make it to four weeks without making a transfer. It’s already hard to do one week sometimes when you’re starting from a tight cash flow. So I find that that weekly allocation is really helpful from a… Ease of implementation, right? Really, it’s just a little easier to implement. I also think there’s something really amazing about making transfers on a weekly basis, because if you do it, for example, every Friday, you get a really good sense of the ebb and flow of money in your business, right? You know, every Friday I’m expecting to see this dollar amount. Yeah. If that’s not there, you can start troubleshooting right away instead of if it’s buried in, you know, your credit card payment and your rent and this and that. Like, it could take weeks longer for you to figure out that there is a problem. Whereas if you’re making a transfer every week, you really get to see that. And then after a while, like once you really have a sense of the ebb and flow, then you can sometimes move to every other week or twice a month, right? Like that is a natural progression where you don’t need to be looking quite as closely, but by doing it weekly, I feel like it really gives practitioners a true sense of comfort with their money. And it’s really not a time-consuming process. It usually takes ten, 10 to 15 minutes is generous. Like, yeah, I think five for most people in. 

 

Linzy [00:15:53] Mine is five, five for sure. 

 

Julie [00:15:55] I would say mine is five also. I see 15 just to give like, oh yeah, yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:15:58] Let’s just, you know, give a buffer. 

 

Julie [00:16:00] But I would agree five, five of the time. 

 

Linzy [00:16:03] I’m right with you in the weekly. I also like first is one of the options we give in Money Skills For Therapists in terms of budgeting systems and I find most therapists do choose it because it is so powerful but also simple at the same time. But I also recommend weekly and for additional reasons to what you’re saying. What I also find is if folks have a very kind of unbalanced relationship with money where they either avoid it or they want to touch it all the time, a week is like a nice middle ground amount. Like it’s it’s close enough together that like if you did your- because you know, I also suggested folks like preference allocations might go with general money time too of just like looking at your numbers getting in touch if you do it every week it’s like recent enough that you remember what happened last week. If you’re building new skills, they’re available enough that you can make to build your confidence. But it’s not so long that you start to build up like avoidance or fear. Because what I do find is sometimes when folks are like, Oh, I just do it like once a month, then that can build up into this big phobia and it’s like, you can’t remember how to do it. It’s like, Wait, do I pull from this bank or do I get this in for. And here like I just saw and there’s something in about once a week that’s a really nice rhythm to just keep you in touch with your money. Just enough on top of all those other great reasons that you just gave for weekly disbursements. 

 

Julie [00:17:17] And weekly is often enough that you shouldn’t have to move money in between with monthly. Like if something comes up, you have a bigger than usual credit card bill or something. You might have to go in and then off cycle. And that that kind of has a trickle down effect too. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:17:33] Yes. Yeah. Great. So principles do we. Let’s summarize them.  

 

Julie [00:17:37] We covered all four. Yeah. So use a small plate- principle number one. Serve sequentially is number two. Number three is remove temptation. Yes. And then number four, enforce a rhythm. 

 

Linzy [00:17:48] Yes. Beautiful. Okay. So you know something that I see Julie, with profit first and you probably see this with your clients, too, is taxes can be a really confusing part of profit first for multiple reasons. So what are your thoughts on taxes and profit first for folks who are listening? 

 

Julie [00:18:07] Yeah, so that’s probably where we get the most questions, like in an open Q&A type of forum. So taxes within, you know, within the book, profit first for therapist. We do have tax applications for various stages of private practice. And I want to be super clear that taxes do change as the practice grows. So I go over four stages or four sizes of private practice, and that’s based on just the data that we’ve accumulated over the years. So we have different ratios for solo practices where it’s just obviously just a single clinician. Yeah, then a small group practice and that’s where there is perhaps a very small team, but the owner is typically doing 50% or more of the clinical work in that small group. Okay. That’s right. That’s kind of the that’s a defining. That’s a defining period. Okay. Yeah. So usually maybe one full-timer, two or three part-timers. Right. Something along those lines that we go to, medium group practice where that’s that happens right around that switch rate of more than 50% of the work is being done by other people to raise the ratios shift at that point. And then for a large group practice, which usually happens around $1,000,000 or more, the main defining piece at that point is the addition of leadership. Mm hmm. Usually by the time you get there, there’s 8 to 10 clinicians. Getting just too much for one single owner to manage. So there’s addition of leadership role. So those are kind of the that’s the 10,000 foot view of of the size of private practice. And so as the practice grows naturally, the profit margin gets smaller, right? And sometimes I see that people are like, Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Why? 

 

Linzy [00:19:42] That’s not what I want. 

 

Julie [00:19:43] That’s not- yeah, I wanted to get a bigger. Dollar amount gets bigger, but the profit margin gets smaller because more and more people other than you, the owner, are doing the work in the business. So as a solo practice owner, for example, you’re the only one doing the work we can reasonably expect. Your owners pay to be 30 to 60% of everything you bring in, right? That’s reasonable. So then there’s tax, then there’s profit operating expenses. But as you get to, let’s say, large group practice, over million dollars in revenue, we usually assign between five and 10% to owners pay. So much, much lower because there’s probably ten clinicians. You have to pay those ten clinicians to do the work, right, andn the piece of the- so it’s just a bigger pie, it’s a smaller piece of a bigger pie is how that happens. So for a solo practice, for example, we usually look for a tax allocation somewhere between five and 35%. It’s a really big range. 

 

Linzy [00:20:38] A big range. 

 

Julie [00:20:39] That’s a really big range because people have very different tax situations. We often see someone starting a solo practice as a side gig where they also already have, for example, full time job and then they’re starting as a side gig. So they may not be making a whole lot of money. Their profit margin may not be huge. So sometimes 5% can be can be enough. There are other cases where you do need a full 35% because you’re the only breadwinner in the household. You have to account for federal tax, state tax, self-employment tax in the U.S.. Right. All three of those. So that’s kind of why we see that that range. There are some fringe cases where you might even need more if you’re in a high income household, for example, where you know, you have a spouse already bringing up the household into a high tax bracket that could create a need for more. So so the ratios I’m talking about are kind of what most people will fall under. Then as you move to a small group that might move to 5 to 25% rates already, that got lower because the- you’re again you’re paying clinicians, right. You’re doing 50% of the work but like there’s clinicians to pay and then as we move to a medium and a large group, usually we see allocation tax allocations between five and 15%. For both of those, that typically is going to be enough. And again, because you’re getting just a smaller piece of that bigger pie, right? In a large group practice, usually at least 50% of the money that comes in is going right back out to clinician wages and sometimes even more. So once we allocate for all of those items, there’s just a lot less left. Right. 

 

Linzy [00:22:14] And because in this case, like when you’re talking about taxes here, you’re talking about just the owners taxes. Is that correct? Yes. 

 

Julie [00:22:23] Yes, that’s correct. So we’re talking we’re not talking about like employee payroll taxes. Right. So when I talk about employee the payroll allocation in that, for me, I include wages, payroll tax and benefits in. Yes. Yes. Right. So wages, payroll tax and benefits. So when we talk about tax in the U.S., again, like most private practices are pass through entities. And so that means that the the business itself does not pay tax at the federal level, rather, the profit flows through to the personal tax return where it is then taxed. Right. So so technically, the business does not pay tax, but it pays tax on behalf of the owner. And so then there’s always federal tax depending on the situation and the tax entity, self-employment tax as well. And then depending on the state again, state tax. Right. So just like you in Canada have provincial tax, I think all provinces have tax rate. 

 

Linzy [00:23:16] I believe so, yes. 

 

Julie [00:23:17] Yeah. So most states in the United States have have a state tax as well with some, some do not. And so that you know, in that case, there’s no tax. 

 

Linzy [00:23:24] It’s a wide range. 

 

Julie [00:23:25] It’s a very wide range. Yes. 

 

Linzy [00:23:27] And something with the with taxes and profit first. And this is a mistake that I see folks make. And I wonder if you see people making this like with profit first, you’re getting your tax percentage based on all the money coming in the door. Yes. Right. Not just what you’re getting paid in terms of what you said in your like your allocation percentages. Could you speak to that a little more? Because I think folks can get really confused of like what number are they’re getting? Are they applying their tax number to or where does their tax number come from? 

 

Julie [00:23:53] Yeah, that’s a really good point. So when you implement profit first, all the money coming into the business goes into that income account. Right. So that is ultimately your your gross income or close to it. All right. GROSS income is that income before you take out expenses. So then on your profit and loss or your tax return, your net income – your profit – that is ultimately what gets taxed, right? So you’re going to pay a percentage of that. So when we do a profit first allocation, we look at all the dollars coming in and then we’re going to allocate some to each category, each bank account, basically. Right? So of all the dollars coming in for solo practice, 5 to 35% of that is going to get allocated to tax. Some of that is going to get allocated to owners pay. Some of it is going to be allocated to operating expenses. And so just because you’re you’re saving, for example, 20% of your gross income for taxes doesn’t mean that your tax bracket is 20% rate is probably higher than that. But you have deductions that are legally allowed. You’re not taxed on your gross income, you’re taxed on your profit. And so that’s where it gets a little bit. That’s where it gets a little bit confusing. So we’re saving based on the gross income, and that’s why that number might be a lower than your actual tax bracket. 

 

Linzy [00:25:12] And that like when I first read Profit First years ago, that was the equation that for some reason took so long to get into my head. Like whenever I went to do it, I was like, Wait, what is that equation again? Like to turn your tax rate, like your effective tax rate, Like, let’s say I talk to my accountant, they’re like, okay, well, you know, because of what you make, you should be saving 28% for taxes. You don’t put 28% though, into your profit first calculator or allocations. Right. It’s a lower number. And I know for me that equation, which now I have in the course as a lesson, took a long time to like click into place. But this is where I see folks like sometimes on therapist Facebook groups and stuff, Julie, like this is a mistake that I see them making sometimes where they’re like, Well, my tax rate is 30%, and so I save 30% of everything coming in the door. Can you just clarify and speak to like why that is? Yeah, what what doesn’t work about that? 

 

Julie [00:26:02] If I mean, if that’s the case, then great. Right. You’re probably saving too much. And I think that’s a better problem than the opposite of saving not enough. 

 

Linzy [00:26:09] True story. 

 

Julie [00:26:10] But like, okay, let’s just use round number. So if $100,000 is coming in and you’re saving 30%, that means you’ll have $30,000 saved for taxes, right? Yes. But let’s say you have 25,000 in operating expenses, which is very doable. Right? Very reasonable to expect. So that means your actual your taxable income is not a hundred thousand. It’s hundred -$25,000 of expenses. 75,000. Yeah. So now you’ve saved almost 50% of your actual taxable income. So good problem to have. But that’s why I can feel like this is really hard. Yeah, it’s hard because it’s so. It’s more than you actually need. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:26:45] Yeah, it’s hard because you’re over saving. 

 

Julie [00:26:47] You’re over saving. Yeah. When someone asks about tax, that is our client that we’re we’re working directly in their books, I would say number one, like, obviously your accountant was always going to have the most accurate answer. Right. Because they can look at your whole tax situation. They can look at your tax return, your credits, you have rental income. We like all the all the pieces that come through and take that into account. So that’s number one. But if you’re not able to do that in the U.S., we have a form called the 1040 ES that’s for estimate. So you can use that form to estimate your quarterly estimate in terms of the seven-page form. Most people look at it in like, oh, no or no, no, I might not be doing that. So that is kind of your next best option. Then after that, if you’re not willing to quote, go, go down that road. You can also take your pull out your tax return to the 1040. Look at the first two pages. Look at the total tax that’s usually on the second page. And divide that by your gross income adjusted – AGI, adjusted gross income. And that’s going to say like, okay, this is your ultimately your tax rate. You can also. So that’s going to give you a piece of information, right, That if you saved that of your gross income, that’s going to be too much like we just talked about. But it still gives you a data point. Yeah. Or you can also look at your total tax if you’re making a very similar amount this year. Like, you can that can be the number that you plug in to your profit first instant assessment, right? Like that’s the dollar amount that you need ultimately to pay in taxes. And so you can look at that. Then your total tax as a percentage of all the income that you bring in and calculate it that way. Great. 

 

Linzy [00:28:22] Yeah. Yeah. So so helpful tips there. If folks, if you’re feeling unsure about your tax bracket, Julie just gave us some good information there. Seven-page form, if you like forms, that form is out there for you. Which form is that again? Julie,  1040ES. Okay. Yes. Or you can look at your tax return. Calculate those numbers. Look at how much you paid in tax. Divide that by your annual gross income, AGI. 

 

Julie [00:28:45] Adjusted gross income. 

 

Linzy [00:28:46] Adjusted gross income. There you go. Or talk to your accountant. Yeah, because accountants, you know, they love us. And especially we were talking about this a little bit before we start recording. Like in Canada, you don’t file based on your spouse’s income, like you pay taxes separately. So that’s not in the picture. But in the U.S., if you are married and if you’re filing jointly, like your spouse’s income is also in the picture, you and your accountant would be able to like actually look at all of that context and give you probably the most accurate number, I would guess. 

 

Julie [00:29:13] Yeah, they’ll they’ll get you pretty pretty darn close. 

 

Linzy [00:29:16] Usually I’m pretty darn close is all you need to be. 

 

Julie [00:29:18] Yeah, it doesn’t have to be. Done is better than perfect in this case, right? When you’re paying or saving for taxes, I’d rather you have a little bit of money left over in your tax account if possible. Than nothing. But close is better than nothing. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:29:32] So when would you say is the best time to start using profit versus like, if folks are listening? People listening are going to be at different stages of business. Some of them maybe haven’t even started yet, but they’re thinking about starting or some have started, but maybe they’re making like a few hundred bucks, you know, a week with their first few clients, whereas other folks are more established. Like, what do you think is the right time to actually roll out profit first in your business? 

 

Julie [00:29:52] So I would say May 2nd is a good time because the book will be available to you. 

 

Linzy [00:30:01] That’s the moment. 

 

Julie [00:30:02] So I joke about that, but there’s a Chinese proverb that says the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. So I think starting where you are today is always a good idea. I get asked all the time like, can I start profit first as I start my business? And the answer is absolutely yes, right after your initial investment. You can you can start profit first. So let’s say you’re starting your practice and saying like I have a $2500 budget, right? Like I’m contributing personal funds to start this practice that you would not put your profit first with because that’s not income. You just put all of that in your operating expenses account. But then as dollars as the first dollar starts coming into the practice, you absolutely can start allocating to all of those. And then as an established business, in most cases you can you can start it at any point. It doesn’t have to be the end of the year or the end of the quarter. Like there’s it’s always a good time to take control of your money, in my opinion. There’s actually a handful of times that I think you should not start profit first. And I think I may be a little controversial there, but I think if you are not ready to actually spend some time looking at your money, you should not start it because having five accounts is not going to help. Five or six accounts. If money is so tight in your business that you’re regularly bouncing payments. Yeah, I personally think this is not the time to start splitting your money into five. Yeah, it’s just going to make that harder. I still think there’s a lot to be benefited from the book because we do talk about paying down debt, for example, and then getting your expenses under control. But I think that needs to happen before you actually start implementing right before you start moving 1% to profit. Yeah, you need to get that under control where you’re not bouncing payments, Right. So something structurally needs to change there. Yeah. 

 

Linzy [00:31:50] Okay. And so and for folks who do feel ready to tackle and they’re like, yeah, no, I do want to actually try to apply this, but things have been really tight in their practice or, you know, they they’re maybe their numbers they’re going to find that they’re out of. Islands that they’re like paying themselves too much or not saving enough for taxes. What about those cases where you go to look at people first and you’re like, Oh, no, these numbers that I’m supposed to be is like not even close to where I am. What do you suggest to folks in those situations? 

 

Julie [00:32:18] Yeah, well, so I think one of the beauties of profit first is that it actually encourages you to start where you are today. Right. So when you do the instant assessment and anyone who’s either pre-ordering the book or ordering it will have access to that on, you know, on our website at the instant assessment. You actually start your first quarter, you start implementing profit first at your current locations exactly where you are today, because just the act of moving your money from one big account to five or six bank accounts, that’s enough. Change now is going to just allow you to see the ebb and flow of the money and start making changes, right. To say, Oh, well, maybe I don’t need this anymore, let’s cut that piece. So that actually is encouraged to not make huge amounts of change right away, because if you try to go from 0% profit to 10% profit overnight, I think you basically need to change everything in your business. That’s really, really hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so even if you’re not where you want to be, that’s okay, because profit first will give you the kind of the map to get there. 

 

Linzy [00:33:17] And I like that. And I think, you know, that spirit is in the original profit first book and I love that you carry that and I’m sure that’s that’s in your book as well, because I think that something that therapists experience often is, you know, it’s like you’ll talk to a financial person or go listen to a finance podcast. They’re like, Just do it this way. This is the right way. So you just need to do this. Like I saw a financial advisor once and she was just like, You just need to spend a lot less money. I’m like, Okay, Oh, like, how can you figure out how to make this work better? But it’s like, there’s no how do I say this? Like it’s such a hard way to approach money. And like, often people end up doing it just like throw their hands up in the air and be like, okay, well, apparently I just suck at this and I can’t do it. Whereas like that softness of being like, okay, start where you are now and then start to slowly move towards where you want to be is so much more human and so much more compassionate and also just is much more likely to actually give you success. Right. Because as you say, like in your business, if you find your numbers aren’t where they want them to be, you’re going to need to change a lot of things. And you can’t change those things overnight. But if you let it be a gradual process of moving your numbers towards where you want them to be, you know, then you’re moving at a pace of actually being able to like make changes that make sense, integrate those changes, feel out what’s right, and then, you know, you’ll still get there. But you’re maybe moving things like what do you suggest like 1% of the time, 2% of the time each month? Yeah. What’s the piece that you find works for people? 

 

Julie [00:34:43] So I recommend either a four-quarter or eight-quarter rollout. So depending on how far you have to go, once in a blue moon, we have a client who just really wants to kick it into high gear and they instead of four quarters, they do four months. But still you have a clear sense of like this is this is, what I- the change I need to make this month. So usually based on that, it’s plus 1%/ -1%, right. Because they all your allocations ultimately have to equal 100%. Yes. Because because math you know so you’re making small one, one and a half percent change each quarter ultimately, because that gives you it’s kind of a, you know, a little stepping stool where you get to like, okay, this is our new place. Like, so now we have to tighten our belts a little bit more. Where does that come from? Right, right. I want to pay myself more. So something has to come right down here. Right? 

 

Linzy [00:35:31] So it’s like operating expenses go down 1%, your paycheck goes up 1%. And like, there’s that that dance that happens. 

 

Julie [00:35:38] Yeah. And really profit is is not an event. It’s a habit. It’s not just something that happens on paper at the end of the year. And so this is a little bit like, going back to nutrition, it’s like you’re trying to change everything all at once. It’s like a crash diet. Yes. You’re just trying it. You’re so far off from where you are in a way that’s sustainable long term that it doesn’t often doesn’t last. But if you’re just making those small incremental changes like walking 20 minutes or eating a little bit less. Right. Like those are the changes that long term can be sustained. So that is the goal with profit first, like you’re not trying to change everything all at once. It’s really hard. It’s not doable in many businesses. So you’re just making small incremental changes and they become habits. 

 

Linzy [00:36:22] Yeah, I love that. That’s a very a very human, very human way. I’m approaching these numbers. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited about this book. I’m so excited that you wrote this book that you have your fourth child coming out in the world. So if folks are wanting to preorder the book and just wanting to be able to follow along and be more in your world, tell it. Tell them where to find you. 

 

Julie [00:36:48] Absolutely. Well, and we do have a special giveaway for your listeners if they go to profit first for therapist dot com slash linzy, they will be able to find our calculator to reverse engineer your practice. Your. So this is a we haven’t really we didn’t talk about this today. But when you want your practice to give you a certain amount, like how how do you get there so you can get that calculator there. You can also preorder the book depending on when you’re you’re listening. I’ll get access to the tools as well. And if you’re listening, after May 2nd, you can just order it and you’ll get it within a couple of days. 

 

Linzy [00:37:27] Wonderful. And as a fan of tools and calculators, I’m very excited to see that tool. So thank you. So. And so it’s profit versus for therapist dot com slash linzy. And Linzy – for folks listening – is L I N Z Y. Because my name often confuses people’s brains like just a little bit. Julie thank you. Thank you. And congratulations. I’m so, so happy to have had you here today. 

 

Julie [00:37:52] Thanks for having me. 

 

Linzy [00:38:07] I so appreciate Julie coming on the podcast today and it was really nice to to get like that refresher in private first in the principles that make it work. You know, like there’s just so much human nature that I think a system like profit first and you don’t have to follow it to the tee by any means. But there’s so much human nature that having a system like that addresses. I’m a big fan of this idea of build systems that are smarter than you are. And that’s not to say that we’re dum dums because we are definitely not. But as humans we have natural vulnerabilities and then as people we have our own additional vulnerabilities or behaviors that we need to set up systems that are going to stop us from doing the things that ultimately hurt us. So, for instance, if you’re someone who tends to steal from yourself, you tend to look at money and be like, That’s probably fine. I’m just going to take this and buy the shiny thing or sign up for this course when I’m already in five other courses and have no bandwidth. But this is exciting looking, you know, if you have that tendency to overspend, then the principle of profit first, where it’s like you have those smaller plates, you can actually see what money there is to use for operating expenses. When you’re going to make those kinds of decisions tends to make us just more thoughtful in how we spend. And I like that plate analogy, but I also like the analogy that’s in the original profit first book of tube of toothpaste. Like when we first get a tube of toothpaste, we’re like, we go nuts with toothpaste and you can put like an inch of toothpaste on your brush because you have so much toothpaste. And we tend to be very liberal. But when you get to the bottom of that tube of toothpaste, you’re like squeezing super hard to get out just like the smallest little, you know, pea sized drop of toothpaste and like, that’s enough. And you make it work and you still brush your teeth and everything still works, but you’re using much less. And that is natural human nature. So when we create those natural boundaries around our money, we tend to use it better, use it smarter because we’re giving ourselves boundaries. People do well with boundaries. So I loved going over that with Julie today, so excited about her book. If you do want to pre buy her book or buy her book, depending on when you’re listing and also get that great freebie, that reverse engineering tool for our listeners. It’s profit first for therapist dot com slash linzy. Linzy is L I N Z Y. You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for people to find the podcast and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today. 

Annie [00:00:01] I’m hanging out still with people who share my values. My friends are still asking the same questions. I think that’s a good question for us to ask themselves is what would those values be that we would be afraid that we would step into? And are we living in a community with people who would question us if we were starting to shift into values that are like really inauthentic to us? 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. Today’s guest is Annie Schuessler. Annie’s a business coach and she’s also the host of the Rebel Therapist podcast. With her rebel therapist programs, she’s all about helping therapists, healers, and coaches make an impact beyond traditional private practice. Today, Annie and I got into investing in your business, what it feels like to launch and like, put yourself out there and be in the middle of something. We talked about money and her increased ability to earn because of like the big work that she does now, the scaled business that she’s built, how her relationship to money has changed and not changed. If you’re curious about building something beyond private practice, this is going to be a great episode for you. Annie and I have some pretty honest conversations during this episode about what it feels like to have a bigger brand and to not be a therapist anymore and have a brand that is based more on like launching and bringing people into your program at certain times and being seen and money coming in in chunks like these are kind of some of the maybe more challenging parts of having a business that is beyond private practice, but also is, I think, an amplification in a lot of ways of what all of us struggle with at all stages of business, whether it’s just starting out in private practice or having a larger private practice. What we talking about today in terms of the challenges around those negative stories that can come up and the fears about money happen at every level. They just kind of get bigger. When your business gets bigger, those fears can also get bigger. Great conversation today. Here is my conversation with Annie Schuessler. So Annie, welcome to the podcast. 

Annie [00:02:44] Thanks, Linzy. 

Linzy [00:02:45] We were just talking before we start recording that. It’s nice to see each other again because we connected for a chat last year at some point. Yeah, and we’ve been wanting to do it again and now we’re doing it and recording at the same time. So this is like a treat for us as well as a podcast episode. 

Annie [00:03:01] I just get excited to talk to you and, you know, connect with your brain. It’s so fun. Thank you. 

Linzy [00:03:08] I was just saying to you, like we’ve not had on the podcast yet, too much discussion about like the real nitty gritty of like expanding and scaling and going beyond therapy, which I know is something that lots of therapists think about. And certainly lots of folks that I work with or listen to the podcast, I’m sure have had at least a fantasy of, you know, expanding, growing, doing something beyond therapy. And so I’m excited to have you here because this is the space that you live in now. Am I correct about that? 

Annie [00:03:40] Yeah, that’s completely my jam is helping people create their programs beyond private practice, so not really within their therapy license, but in addition or sometimes even a replacement of having a private practice. 

Linzy [00:03:59] Now, you no longer practice as a clinician, is that correct? 

Annie [00:04:03] That’s right. 

Linzy [00:04:03] Yes. And I am in the same boat. I am curious, do you still have your license now? 

Annie [00:04:09] No, I let it go. 

Linzy [00:04:12] You don’t. Okay! Nice! 

Annie [00:04:12] Yeah, that was a moment. 

Linzy [00:04:13] Yeah, I bet it. 

Annie [00:04:15] Because it was time to either renew or let it go. And I really thought about. Hmm. What part of me wants to renew this or keep this? And what part of me is ready or wanting to let it go? Yeah. And so I took that leap of faith and just recycled it. 

Linzy [00:04:40] You didn’t just let it go. 

Annie [00:04:42] How about you? 

Linzy [00:04:43] I do still have my license. Only because it’s also only $300. Yeah. And so there is like, there is an equation there for me of, like, the $300 to just be like, Yeah, fine. Here’s my renewal money versus the energy and bandwidth to investigate what happens if I do let it lapse? And what would be the process of like getting it again. And so for me, it’s been completely just based on like a time, you know, time for money equation. Yeah. It just hasn’t made sense yet to let it go because I’m like, I’m not sure if I really understand the full implications of letting this go yet, but yeah, I haven’t practiced in a couple of years. I just, I’m like an MSW in name, but not in practice at this point. So I’m just like, Yeah, yeah, sure. I’m doing professional development. Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap. Renew. Yeah, that’s where I am at this point. But I- you’re inspiring me a little bit because I do feel like that’s a- it’s a statement. It’s a move, right? To say like, I’m actually just going to let go of this piece of paper that has defined me and bound me in certain ways for so long and just pursue something different, like outside of those bounds. 

Annie [00:05:50] Yeah. And feeling sure that I really wouldn’t want to go back. 

Linzy [00:05:57] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so for folks who are who are listening, I mean, I know for me, part of growing my practice beyond therapy or going, I should say, part of growing my business beyond my practice. Starting to move out of that space did involve having to make some big moves. Right. And making some investments. And I know that’s something that folks – especially if folks already have anxiety around money or lack of confidence around money – can really struggle with to know when and where do you invest as you are thinking about building out these things. What are your thoughts on how do you figure out what to invest in as you’re thinking about growing your business? 

Annie [00:06:38] So for me, it’s been in stages. At different stages, different investments made a lot of sense. Yeah. So right now, like I just re-upped with a business coach who has a $9,000 package that works really well for me. And it wasn’t a very big deal to make that decision. I know that I’m going to get at least $9000 back from what I do with her, and I wouldn’t sign up if I thought I was just going to get $9000 back. 

Linzy [00:07:12] Right. Yes. 

Annie [00:07:15] But I’m confident. I’m completely confident I’ll make that $9000 back. And I feel like, considering what I want to put into it, I’m going to probably get ten times that. Back, and that’s really important to me. Yeah, but in the beginning I would not. It would have been a terrible idea to start with that coach. Right. Like the stages have really been different for me and I feel like for me and I think for a lot of folks in the first stages, it’s really important to first just get clear on what do you want to create and who do you want to create it for and to start there. And so if business coaching, like working with a business coach, is going to help you get really clear on those things: who is this for and what do I want to create and how can I get out of my own way to really make those things happen? Then that can be well worth the investment. And sometimes I see people wanting to invest in things where I’m like, Oh, I don’t think it’s the right time for that. Yeah. So things like branding. Sometimes people start with branding first. 

Linzy [00:08:33] Yes. 

Annie [00:08:34] And I’m like, Oh my God, that money you’re spending, it will be so much better spent once you have the, like, what and who stuff really figured out, Right? Then you’ll be able to do some really magical branding work with someone.  

Linzy [00:08:50] So true. It’s right thing, right time. Yeah. Like, there’s so many. At some point, almost everything is important, but it’s like, is it important right now? And what do you think it is about branding? Because this is a common one I hear folks who support people who are helping to scale and grow talk about is like there is something very compelling about branding or that like beautiful website, you know, the $15,000 or $20,000 website. What do you think it is about that that like pulls folks in at the very beginning of this work that they’re doing? 

Annie [00:09:19] I wonder if it’s partly because it’s what we can see so easily. So we can see what someone’s website looks like. We can see how many followers someone has on Instagram. So some of these more visible things might kind of pull us in first because we think, Well, that’s what a successful business looks like. And actually, a lot of successful businesses have sales pages on Google Docs actually like run through mostly referrals, and they’re not very visibly glamorous and they’re making a really good living behind the scenes. So I think it’s partly just that misconception that started. 

Linzy [00:10:02] Like this is what success looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly something that I have experienced is like a lot of the work of building something is this kind of like behind the scenes unglamorous working through building something, feeling it out, information, interviews, all of these things that are not very sexy and don’t have a nice color scheme. But those are the things that actually allow you to answer the questions you were just talking about there. Right. Like the who and the what. There’s a lot of kind of sorting through that has to happen there before you can even start to think about what your brand might be. And I will say too, I think also at the beginning, like there’s also a good chance you’re going to pivot and you’re going to serve those people and be like, Oh, actually, never mind, that was a mistake and end up doing something different. So when we do all this like branding around something that isn’t solid yet, there’s also the risk that we’re going to end up having a completely different business in two years and the branding is not going to be relevant anymore. 

Annie [00:11:03] That’s really likely. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:11:05] Yeah. 

Annie [00:11:06] That also makes me think of the when we think about branding – and this probably isn’t really even true of branding – but when we think about branding, it feels like it’s going to be easier to do. It’s not going to hit our visibility and our vulnerability buttons as much as doing something like what you mentioned, like getting on Zoom with the kind of person who you want to serve and asking them questions. Talking to our colleagues, really just putting ourselves out there and asking for help, those things can feel really disgusting and they’re really worth it and useful. 

Linzy [00:11:46] That was a very surprising word choice, I have to say. Disgusting was not the word I was expecting. Tell me what you mean when you say disgusting. 

Annie [00:11:55] Like vulnerable. 

Linzy [00:11:56] Vulnerable. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yeah. 

Annie [00:11:58] Feeling like- so many times when I’m working with folks, they would rather do anything than, like, get on Zoom with somebody and get into a conversation and put themselves out there when they don’t feel, quote-unquote, ready yet. 

Linzy [00:12:15] Right. Which also actually, it makes me think about kind of like the branding in the website. That’s the cloak that we want to put on to make it look like we have it figured out. Yeah. When it actually takes a long time to figure it out. And even when you figure it out, sometimes it changes because something else changes beyond your control or the culture changes or the market changes. So yeah, I, I do wonder if it’s like unconsciously folks are trying to skip that messy, vulnerable part and go right to the like, Ta-da! Yeah, here’s my beautiful color scheme, here’s my beautiful graphic design. But without all that, that initial work that you’re talking about, the who and the what and the like, getting on Zoom and talking to your people and realizing your assumptions were wrong and being surprised by something and then hearing it over and over and over. Without that, you can’t build something of substance. 

Annie [00:13:05] Absolutely. Yeah. Did your niche change beyond private practice, or did you always know it was going to be around money? 

Linzy [00:13:13] Oh, I always knew it was going to be around money. 

Annie [00:13:15] Love it. 

Linzy [00:13:16] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was like. That was the thing. That I identified as like, Huh? I have this thing that I love that everybody else hates. And I have not even grown remotely tired of it. In fact, I have to almost fight to stay in the space because I think- I will get advice from folks like or my students will give me the feedback of like I want- if you were teaching, like, how to, like, scale and like, build a new brand, I would do that. I’m like, Yeah, that’s cool. Annie does that. This person does it. This person does that. Like, that’s not what I do and it’s not what I want to do. And I don’t feel compelled in that direction. It’s like I want to- I’ll be the person who will help you learn how to do cash flow projection so you can make strategic decisions about what you’re going to build and how many folks are going to serve and when you’re going to roll out your courses and how much your operating expense ratio is going to be like, I will stay in that nerdy space with you, like this is where I want to to live. And so I’ve had to like really just commit to this space over and over because I think there could have been a lot of shiny object pull had I not felt so clear like, no, this is my zone of genius and other folks are really brilliant at marketing and that’s never going to be me. And that’s totally fine. What about you? Has your focus shifted over time, the folks that you serve? 

Annie [00:14:28] It did. In the beginning, I was serving therapists in private practice and therapists who wanted to create private practices, and it was all about practice building. 

Linzy [00:14:38] Yes. 

Annie [00:14:39] Yeah. Okay. And I wish I had switched sooner and listened to that inner voice like you’re talking about sooner, if anything, because this work always kind of pulled me a little bit more like what’s beyond private practice and what are people doing and how can I help them do it faster? Yeah. So beyond private practice. 

Linzy [00:15:03] Yes. Like, yeah, that, that spark and like, you know, this is something I talk about with students and this is what you guide folks in doing for their next level thing is like find that area either within your practice, the folks you love to serve within your practice or the way you love to work. Whether it’s like intensives or hour-and-a-half sessions or whatever. Find that area where there’s that like spark and pull and follow it, because the work that we love is easy to do. The other stuff can be really hard. 

Annie [00:15:29] Yes. 

Linzy [00:15:30] So you and I now live in a in a similar kind of space, this online space where we have to sell and show up and launch and all of these kinds of things. And I think that this is something that often terrifies therapists. Yeah, this is like something that they’re like, Oh gosh, I have to do all this sticking my neck out and not knowing what’s going to happen. I’m curious for you, how do you handle and how do you manage and probably what do you teach your folks about that work of like having to launch and open your doors to your course and show up and be seen and all of that stuff? How do you handle being in the middle of a launch? 

Annie [00:16:12] I am finding that I’m finally having less of a trauma response when I’m in the middle of the launch. So- and I say finally, like I’ve launched dozens of times. 

Linzy [00:16:24] Yes. 

Annie [00:16:24] So this is hard work for me. And I know for a lot of my clients, it’s really hard to, like, put ourselves out there, know that our money, our income really depends on launches doing well. Along with, like, all the feelings that I have about myself when I’m launching, like, all of that is a lot to manage and to feel like, you know, my friends have pointed out that there’s kind of been launch Annie and then rest-of-the-time Annie and launch Annie is just more anxious or insecure, more kind of fragile than rest-of-the-time Annie. 

Linzy [00:17:07] Right. 

Annie [00:17:09] And I feel like that’s finally shifting to where I feel like there’s a just a stable Annie that gets through all of it. And then I can kind of, like, talk myself down more easily. Yeah, but that’s like, that’s after dozens of launches. So I really feel for people, especially when they’re starting out with launching. And part of what I want to help people do is set realistic expectations based on what they already have going on. So knowing what their audience size is, who’s in their audience, how many people they’ve asked for help, how many conversations they’ve been having, so that they really know, okay, I’ve got this set up for myself. And so. Here’s what’s likely to happen with this launch. Like, here are my numbers going in and then my expectations so we can like, set that together and think it through. Because otherwise I think you’re looking at what other people’s lunches look like from the outside. Which might be total bullshit depending on who it is and how honest they are. 

Linzy [00:18:26] Yeah, right. Yeah. 

Annie [00:18:28] And. It’s also like you’re not getting the behind-the-scenes look at what they’re going through during their lunch. So, you know, I also, I really like to help people choose a less risky way to launch the first time to look at do I want to maybe just launch a one-on-one program as my first offering so that if I got one person, I’ve actually had a successful one like running my program. And that doing that for a period of time while you build your audience and then go into a group launch. 

Linzy [00:19:06] Right. 

Annie [00:19:07] So like, I’m working with someone right now who’s planning on starting a group, no doubt, and this program is going to be so valuable for a group. And it’s, you know, it’s a group of people who tend – like so many – it’s a group of people who tend to feel isolated and need each other. So she’s going to run it as a group. Probably in the fall. And in the spring she’s going to launch it as a one-on-one program and then just run it enough times until she hits critical mass and can see. All right. I have enough people knocking on my door that this can be a great program. 

Linzy [00:19:46] I love that. You know, you’re letting I think that that’s a very strategic way to start because you’re toe dipping. You’re still getting the experience of what it’s like to run a launch, like to put it out there, open your doors, have a deadline, all of the things. But you’re making it much more likely that you’re going to succeed. Yeah. And it’s nice to have an experience of success at the start rate and like set a goal that means that you can be like, Oh, I did it. I got my one person or my two people. Then you also, I’m sure, got to work through and refine your program by going through it individually with these people. Yeah. Which is going to also make it that much better as you do grow your audience and bring more people in the next time. That’s very strategic. I love that you do that with people. 

Annie [00:20:34] I really like it too, because then she’s going to have testimonials when she launches it as a group program in the fall. And otherwise, she could just put- but I mean, there’s nothing wrong with doing it this way either. But she could put just a ton of energy into audience building from now till fall and not be making a dime in all that time. And so I would rather she make back the investment that she put in my program and the other things she’s doing and then go into the fall and start bringing in real money. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:07] And it’s nice to actually be able to do the work that you’re wanting to do and like run the program that you’re building and actually get that experience. 

Annie [00:21:14] You’re so excited about it. 

Linzy [00:21:15] Witnessing the transformation and helping people. And, you know, I think what you’re talking about here, you’re talking about like “launch Annie”, “rest-of-the-time Annie” coming closer together. I’m sure so many therapists have experienced this even when they’re just marketing their private practices. But when you have a scaled offer, when you have something like a course where you’re really like putting it out there and trying to call in, you know, a certain amount of people at the same time to share an experience, you know, a scaled model. It really is multiplied, right? Like, I think there’s just so much invitation for so many parts of us. And we all have our special blend, you know, of like activation to come up. Like, I was joking to you before we started recording, joking, not joking. Like I just did a launch in January. I do challenge launches twice a year. So the money momentum challenge, which folks listening have probably heard me talk about or maybe have participated in, that’s an example of a type of launch that’s very intense. Right? It’s like it involves me showing up every day. There’s teaching, there’s lives every night. There’s engaging all throughout the day. It’s this like really intense burst of energy, which is like fun but like not where I live on a regular basis. So it’s kind of like I’m, like, partying hard for a week. Yeah. And then after you’ve kind of done your thing and you’ve shown people like, This is how I work, this is what the experience is, this is what I’m offering, there’s this five-day period, you know, where folks have the opportunity to join the course where you’re just like, have to wait and you continue. Like, I continue showing up and the emails are going out and everything’s happening. But, you know, I think for me, you know, what it brings up is this The part of me that can come up is the like. Well, just shut it down. This is fine. We can just burn it to the ground. It’s okay. That kind of, you know, thing where it’s like all this effort and, like, again, we’re all going to have those parts, but just noticing, like, Oh, there’s the burn it down part. Hello burn it down part. Welcome back. I’m doing a launch. 

Annie [00:23:11] For you, what triggers burn-it-down? Is it like a day of cricket or like, what is it that comes in and makes you say. 

Linzy [00:23:19] Here’s the incredible thing, and this shows that it’s trauma, right? It’s like it’s very black and white. I’m very numbers oriented. Obviously, this is what I teach. So I have my percentage that I want to see my conversion percentage like of the folks who are in the challenge, who aren’t students or grads already, because also some of those folks are participating. Of the people who haven’t joined me in money skills and who might be considering they would be eligible to be new students. There’s a percentage that you know, based on past launches, we want to see join. And the last time our goal was 4% and I landed at 3.6. Failure. Right? 

Annie [00:23:54] Wow. 

Linzy [00:23:54] That’s what the voice says. Right. So that is that like, you know, and that’s very black and white thinking, which, you know, is always a cue that you’re not in your balanced wise mind where it’s like four would be success, 3.6 not success. And that’s not how it works at all. That’s not how life works. But I noticed that in myself and to the point that I almost have to like, you know, when I’m venting to business friends. I have to almost like, walk it back after like, you know, I’ll have friends after who were like, Well, okay, let’s think of how you do this differently because you’re never hitting the number you want. I was like, Well, to be fair, we are talking about 0.4% difference. You know, it’s like I have to almost like add-  

Annie [00:24:33] You have to remind them how to be- yeah- how to be the voice of reason for you. 

Linzy [00:24:36] I wasn’t, I wasn’t being reasonable when I said that. And now I am being reasonable again. And reasonable me sees that, that was great and I really had fun and lots of amazing people joined the course and others now have had an experience that might help them decide to join the course later if it’s the right thing. So it’s like, that’s my like post-launch. I’ve had a weekend. I’m like, you know, everything’s back online again, but- and I’m sure there’s many, many other responses that I’m not even thinking of right now that I have, You know, when launches are are going on or when launches aren’t going well, when there is crickets, you know, that’s always a moment, too. But I do agree like it is getting easier over time, partially just because now I’m at the point where it’s like, okay, it’s launch feelings. 

Annie [00:25:18] Here they are. It’s launch feelings. 

Linzy [00:25:20] Feelings. We’ve been here. 

Annie [00:25:21] Hi Launch. Hi launch Linzy or launch Annie. Like, we’ve met. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:25:26] Yeah, exactly. I’m like, you know, like launch feelings will require some sushi and cinnamon buns from, you know, the overpriced store downtown. Yeah, Like, that’s really the best thing that we can do for them. But, yeah, it is. I think, you know, this is just such an example of how business and especially when we start to build brands where we have our faces out there and our voices out there and we are trying to call in our people, it’s really vulnerable. It can bring up a lot of vulnerable parts of us. 

Annie [00:25:54] Yes, there’s so much stirred up at once because there’s that vulnerability piece about like our value or our worthiness. And then there’s the money piece that can feel so panicky, right? Like if somebody is- if, well, I’ll just keep it to me- if I’m not hitting a number that I had hoped and I’m in the middle of a launch and I’m doing all this predicting, which is not really a good use of my energy. But no, no, no, I’ll do it anyway. That’s a time when I can get into just money fears big time. 

Linzy [00:26:30] Sure. Yeah. I like. And I’m curious, would you be up for talking more about that? Like, what do you think your specific stories or fears are that surface in those moments? 

Annie [00:26:40] It’s a little bit like burn it all down, but it’s the language that comes up for me is, oh, never mind, Oh, never mind. This whole program and this whole business that I actually really love and get a ton out of. Yeah. It’s just sort of this like shrinking. 

Linzy [00:26:59] Yeah, I was going to say like a part of like defeat or something like. 

Annie [00:27:01] Yeah, yeah. And going invisible like, Oh, never mind. Yeah, that’s what feels tempting to me. 

Linzy [00:27:07] Sure. Yeah, I can see that. And I think, you know, the thing about businesses like this and folks who are listening, like, if, if you are, you know, thinking about building an expanded brand like Annie has and like I have, this is something that’s very different from private practice is that the money does come in in chunks. 

Annie [00:27:25] Yes. 

Linzy [00:27:25] Or it doesn’t come, you know, like when you’re selling a course, you know, depending on the ratio you get, like folks are pay in full to like payment plans. You know, obviously, depending on the structure of your business, sometimes like, you know, it’s feast or famine the way the money comes in. And I think that’s such an invitation, again, to like all the parts of us, like all the scarcity, all the money fears can easily come out in that model because it feels like so much is at stake when you’re in those times, when you’re like, okay, now this is the time when all my work is going to pay off. And it’s like, Oh, well, maybe it’s not okay, that’s fine.  

Annie [00:27:59] What if it doesn’t? 

Linzy [00:27:59] It’s okay. 

Annie [00:28:01] Yes. 

Linzy [00:28:01] Yeah. Yeah, it is this like next level I think of money mindset work that you have to do. And then also, of course, I would argue, of systems that you need to put in place so that you are not actually, you know, relying on this one launch to make the money work. Like I think in businesses where you have feast or famine and this is true in private practice, too, for folks who are listening, who are never going to build businesses like this. This is also true in private practice – just not as extreme. You know, we need to have the systems in place to give ourselves stability. Yeah. Even if the money comes in in ebbs and flows, we need to have that stability of like a regular paycheck and a certain amount of money in the bank. Otherwise, emotionally, I think there’s just so much at stake and financially so much at stake. Most of us, I don’t think, are doing our best work when we are stressed. Stress to the nines. 

Annie [00:28:49] That has really helped me. Having- yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Having my actual salary not dependent on what’s about to happen with a current launch is so helpful. Absolutely, so helpful. So I can look ahead to worst case scenario. Yes, it could happen. It hasn’t actually ever happened for me, but it could totally happen. But like, worst case scenario, I wait till the next launch and that would totally work out. Yeah. Another thing that I do to kind of hack myself is I like to come up with, like early in the launch the worst case scenario and find a part of me that would love that outcome. Hmm. So like, let’s say the worst case scenario is: my program has room for 20 people, but the worst case scenario is I guess I could just say no one signs up, because if I can find a way to fall in love with this scenario, then I’m going to be doing great. 

Linzy [00:29:55] So then you can’t lose. 

Annie [00:29:57] Right. 

Linzy [00:29:57] Interesting. 

Annie [00:29:59] To really, like, dream into it until I can find, Yeah, that isn’t my first choice but if that were to happen. 

Linzy [00:30:06] Yeah. I mean I think it’s kind of like that CBT intervention of like what’s the worst that can happen. 

Annie [00:30:11] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:12] Which I’m always surprised that that doesn’t just like send people into like pure catastrophe, but somehow it does seem to work where you’re like, oh okay, well if that happened, then I will reopen my private practice and launch it again next week with a different branding. Like, you know, it’s like then you realize like, Oh, that I could even solve that problem. 

Annie [00:30:28] Yes. 

Linzy [00:30:29] Yeah. Which is powerful because the black and white tells us that it’s like success or doom. 

Annie [00:30:35] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:30:36] And actually there’s a huge spectrum in the middle that we can manage. 

Annie [00:30:39] It does usually surprise my clients when I ask them to go into that a little bit. Like what might be great about that happening? Yeah. And at first they’re like, That’s what I’m telling you. I really don’t want to have happen. Like, Yeah, no, I got that. 

Linzy [00:30:55] I am listening. Yeah, but I can see that you’re kind of, you’re inoculating yourself against that. Yeah. And so, I mean, I am curious, Annie, with where you are and then like, what you’ve built, you know, you’ve come through private practice, you start practicing, you’ve now built this, like, coaching business around helping, you know, therapists expand beyond therapy. How do you think differently about money now than you did, you know, when you first started off, let’s even say back in private practice, what do you notice different about how you think about money now compared to when you were just starting out? 

Annie [00:31:32] Yeah, One thing is that my expectation of my income is a lot higher. So like now I really expect to make- like to gross in my business, like over 300 K and my goals are a lot higher than that moving forward. And as a person in private practice, I just had a much smaller range of where I could see my goals. And I wasn’t unhappy with that. That was okay. But I just noticed when I look back at like, my old goal setting documents, I’m like, Oh, wow, I really like could see my income ceiling is a lot lower. So that’s one thing is just like I’m, not really linking hours to income anymore. Yeah, I’m much more linking like the value of my program, the value of the outcomes. How I can make my programs better and better. I think about that tied to income rather than how many hours can I work. 

Linzy [00:32:40] Right. Because that is scalable. Right. Like the value and like the transformation deliver in the way that you find ways to have more folks have success, you know, with you doing a similar amount of work or working differently like those, there’s just so much more potential there than your time, which is like obviously got a finite limit of how much direct service you could ever do in a week and probably how much you could charge for an hour of direct service with an individual person also has a limit that’s going to look different. That’s interesting. So that makes me curious then, like has your lifestyle has your life changed a lot now, having built a business that has such higher capacity or such higher potential for the money that you bring in. 

Annie [00:33:25] Some things I’ve noticed changing are I feel more ease with being generous. Like I feel like it doesn’t feel like a big deal to make decisions about like donating more. Or just little, little things with, you know, treating a friend to something. Those things don’t feel like as big of a deal. And then with what my kids get to do, yeah, they get a lot more options than they did- not into- I mean, they would be surprised to hear me say that because they don’t get a lot of presents or things like that. And we don’t go out to eat a lot. But in terms of the activities that we pay for, yeah, they’ve got a lot more options. So those are some things I just notice a lot of ease around. Yeah, but if you look in on my life it doesn’t look that different. It’s more like those kinds of things and being able to put a lot into retirement. 

Linzy [00:34:24] Right. Yeah.  

Annie [00:34:25] Which is a big deal. 

Linzy [00:34:26] Yeah. That is a big deal. That’s a big, big deal. And that’s something I’ve just been thinking about this week – a couple of times I’ve thought and talked about it this week with people – where it’s like when you’re not earning a lot, you can still kind of like get by while you’re actively earning, but it’s in retirement that we’re really going to see the impact because that’s when that little stream of money starts coming in. You’re like, Oh shit, now I’m on this small fixed income. Yeah. Then it’s like the reality of it really is going to settle. So, yeah, having the more you would put away for retirement, you’re dramatically changing the last few decades of your life. Yes. At this point. Right. Because our retirement now is a long chapter of our life. 

Annie [00:35:02] Yeah. And I don’t know how long. Like I’m 51. Yeah. I’m not feeling any pull to retire. 

Linzy [00:35:08] Yes. 

Annie [00:35:09] But you never know what’s going to happen. We don’t have a safety net in the U.S., so. Yeah, yeah. 

Linzy [00:35:17] Yeah, absolutely. And I think about like my mother-in-law who retired earlier than planned because she had an injury and that was kind of like, oh, well, that’s the end of her working life. She needed her body to work. She now has this injury, like, she’s retired. The end. It’s not always the time or the way that we think it’s going to be. 

Annie [00:35:34] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:35:35] But something that I’m hearing and that may be helpful for people here is: it does not sound to me like earning more has like fundamentally changed you as a person or you’re like, I’m hearing more ease. You know, your kids have more activities, there’s more security in the future. But I’m not necessarily hearing. Did you buy a yacht? Anything like that. 

Annie [00:35:58] No, and what’s funny- but although we did go to Italy last year. Yeah. So that- I find that thing of spending more on experiences than things I know that’s not black and white. Like, what exactly is an experience? What exactly is a thing? But I do find that I want to invest in those things more. And I drive a clunker. And like I would have thought, like my sort of dream vehicle would have been like a really adorable, like Fiat or Mini Cooper. And like, when it comes into real life that just keeps not being what we want to spend money on. So we just keep buying used cars that will get us from A to B and that’s it. For example.

Linzy [00:36:43] We are the same. We are the same. Yeah. 

Annie [00:36:45] And like, I don’t wear expensive clothes. Like, I also would have thought that, like, maybe I would have upgraded my wardrobe and like, I just keep not wanting to. 

Linzy [00:36:55] Yeah. And so what does that tell you or show you? What have you taken from that? 

Annie [00:37:00] I think it’s about like what truly gives me joy and pleasure and matters to me. Yeah. And, like, really comfortable t-shirts, it turns out, are what I want to be wearing. 

Linzy [00:37:12] But it’s not just what you could afford. It’s actually what you like. 

Annie [00:37:15] Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:37:16] And I’m asking this Annie, in part because, you know, I do think that sometimes therapists like have a fear that if they make more, they’re going to change in bad ways. They’re going to become more materialistic or they’re going to forget about what really matters to them, or they’re not going to share the money. They’re going to become greedy and more, more conservative. And these kinds of things, which I think are cultural narratives. But I think also, you know, therapists are we tend to be very invested in like we want to be good people. We want to be doing good things in the world. And so I’m pulling this out partially because it’s like, yeah, seems really clear that that has not happened to you. 

Annie [00:37:51] It has not. I don’t think- and I think maybe part of that fear because I’ve had that fear, too. I wonder if part of it comes from we’ve seen rich assholes, right? And like, we don’t want to be a rich asshole, but I feel like that might be partly that we’ve seen that when people have surrounded themselves with other people who will not question what they’re doing with their money or with their, you know, with their resources in general. And like, I’m hanging out still with people who share my values, some of them with more money than me, some of them with less. But like my friends are still asking the same questions. I’m still hanging out with the same people and some new wonderful people. So I think that’s a good question for us to ask themselves is like, what would that- what would those values be that we would be afraid that we would step into? And are we living in a community with people who would question us if we were starting to shift into values that are like really inauthentic to us? 

Linzy [00:39:00] Right. Yeah. Like I think having authentic connection with your people, whoever that is, is going to keep you grounded and keep you connected with what actually matters. Because I’m sure there are folks where you do get pulled in. They do get pulled into things that in retrospect are like, Well, that was a dumb way to spend my money, or that was a dumb way to spend my time. And I do think there is a level of class and I’m not going to adjust to too much because this is kind of beyond the scope of this podcast generally. But, you know, I think there is a level of wealth where it does really start to change your life in ways that could be seen as negative. Like it’s hard to trust people if you have a lot of money. Do they like you for you? Are there to try to get access to your resources and what you have? You know, and you know, there are people who have written and talked about this, but that’s so far from where we are, most of us, that I don’t think that that’s something that is really going to be a concern if you’re making 100 K or 200 K or even 300 a year, especially if you’re living in a city, like you are like, you know, San Francisco. All right, that money doesn’t go super far. There’s not a ton of disposable income. We’re living in more expensive places. But yeah, I do think that there is a fear that folks have that I will if I expand, if I build a bigger brand, if I start taking up space and if I’m successful, I’m actually going to lose myself or lose my values. 

Annie [00:40:18] Yeah, Makes us scared to make more money, even though that’s what a lot of us really want. Yes. So yeah, I mean, the reasons. Yeah. And me. Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I like to talk about how much money I make and I like to be honest about the numbers because it feels like I could never. I remember when I was first becoming an entrepreneur, I felt like I couldn’t get anybody to tell me the real numbers. And that made it so difficult. 

Linzy [00:40:44] Yes. Yes. That transparency is so valuable. Annie, thank you. Thank you for joining me today. It’s been really wonderful. Have you on the podcast. And if folks want to get further into your world, where can they find you? 

Annie [00:40:59] A great place to start would be Rebel Therapist dot me. That’s where all my stuff lives. And speaking of transparency, thank you so much for the honesty and the amazing stuff that you bring us. 

Linzy [00:41:15] Oh, thank you. 

Annie [00:41:16] So appreciate you. 

Linzy [00:41:16] Thanks, Annie. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Annie [00:41:20] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:41:34] I really appreciated Annie’s honesty today. I know she thanked me at the end for my honesty. I think her honesty was also so, so valuable because Annie- I would say Annie is probably a little bit ahead of me of where I am, you know, with the numbers she’s talking about. She’s kind of two or three steps ahead of me. And it’s always interesting to, like, talk to someone who’s 2 to 3 steps ahead of where you are, wherever you are in business, and hear about what’s happening there. And, you know, hearing Annie’s experience of like, yeah, she has her goals are so much bigger now, her income is so much bigger and this is what has changed, but also this is what has stayed the same. I think sometimes we can have fantasies about – with our businesses and with our income when we earn more. This is what is going to change about me, for better or for worse. We can have the fantasy of Everything’s gonna be fine. I’m never going to feel anxious ever again. That’s usually not true. But we can also have that negative fantasy of I’m going to lose sight of myself. I’m not going to be a compassionate person anymore. I’m going to lose sight of my values. Right. And I you know, I so appreciate Annie sharing about her experiences with what it’s been like to build a large, sustainable, successful business beyond private practice and what has changed and what hasn’t. And just to summarize, the core of it is she hasn’t really changed a lot, but she does have more money to do great things with her kids, save for retirement, and create memories, which sounds pretty great. So I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. If you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, I would so appreciate if you could give me a review on Apple Podcasts. I know you hear me say it every time, but I say it because I mean it. If you could take 2 minutes to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it’s incredibly helpful so that other therapists can find us. Thanks for listening today.