Meet Julie Herres

[00:00:00] Linzy: Welcome back to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. Today we have returning guest Julie Herres, the owner of Green Oak Accounting. This accounting firm specializes in working with therapists and is also the author of Profit First for Therapists. Julie and I are talking about this phrase today: the idea of moving at the speed of cash.

[00:00:23] We explore what that means to move at the speed of cash. What are some of the risks that can come with incurring large amounts of debt? Like what has she seen happen when folks end up incurring too much debt? What does that mean? What does that look like? What’s involved and needed to move at the speed of cash in your business?

[00:00:41] This is a phrase that Julie brought to me, and I just immediately got it and, and loved it. And this conversation, too, ended up spinning off maybe a little bit too far. We’ll see what Ashley, our editor, leaves in, down a bit of a road of philosophically, you know, what is worth it, right?

[00:00:59] And, and how do we get what we want? And when is that about money? And when is it not about money? Maybe challenging this idea that taking on debt, or making big moves fast, is going to get you what you want in your practice and your life. Here is my conversation with Julie Herres.​

[00:01:22] Hi, Julie, and welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:25] Julie: Good to be here, Lindsay. I always enjoy our chitchats.

[00:01:29] Linzy: And I just noticed I had the desire there to two name you. I wanted to say Julie Herres, is not how I refer to you when we speak on one since you wrote the book and you’ve been out there, it’s like Julie Herres is like you’re a presence now.

[00:01:43] Julie: Thank you. I am here.

[00:01:46] Linzy: So I’m excited, to chat with you today about something that it’s something you had mentioned in a call that you did. Where are we now? Like six months ago with some of my students in money skills for good practice owners. I believe that I grabbed this phrase that you used, because I was like, whoa, I love that idea.

[00:02:04] I have never heard it expressed like that. Can we please like have a podcast and just jam on it? And that is this idea of moving at the speed of cash. It’s a phrase that you just threw out casually, as you do, you know while answering a question, but I think it’s such a rich idea. So can you start by explaining this concept that you have of moving at the speed of cash and, and why you generally advocate for that over folks taking on debt?

[00:02:29] Julie: Yeah. So I am generally a fan of moving at the speed of cash because it is a way to pace yourself in business, right? I think as visionaries of a business, right? The owner is that visionary, there are always ideas and there are often more ideas than you necessarily have the time or the money for, right?

[00:02:51] So there’s always this kind of culling of the ideas and saying like, Oh, I do like this, but we’re going to have to wait, right? Or yes, I could expand, right? If money was no object, you could probably expand your practice quickly. And especially in the case of a group practice, but usually there is a restriction, right?

[00:03:09] That is a reality of most humans that money is an object and you just don’t have unlimited funds. And so moving at the speed of cash is this concept of, well, we’re going to save up for things in advance and then be strategic in planning for them and then executing. And so when we do the thing, it’s a lot less scary.

[00:03:29] Because we have already done the planning, whereas debt can be exciting and it’s easy to get money now. It’s more expensive these days than it was a year ago, but it’s still pretty easy to get into debt. And then I, I just think that often it’s not thought through in the same way of like, Oh, well, let’s just, you know, take some money from the line of credit and try this out versus if you have to spend a couple of 

[00:03:52] months, or even a couple of weeks, planning and getting the things ready. You’re thinking through it and, and, and, pausing to put some plans in place. And you might do things a little bit differently. It also feels a little harder to spend your own money.

[00:04:08] Linzy: I was just thinking that, yes.

[00:04:10] Julie: Yeah. And so we’re like, Oh, it’s the bank’s money. Really? You’re going to have to pay it back later. But it feels more personal since you’re usually a little more judicious in your decision-making. And spending money a little bit differently. 

[00:04:23] Linzy: It is way less sexy.

[00:04:26] Julie: Yeah, yeah,

[00:04:27] Linzy: Yeah, I was thinking about that exact thing and I was just racking my brain. I was like, is it in Profit First that he talks about that idea of like, angel investors, and when folks have other people’s money they spend it faster? Is that Profit First that he talks about that? Or am I getting that? 

[00:04:38] Julie: I do think so. Yeah, I do think Mike Michalowicz talks about it there and I have a story there. My husband was right after college, or actually, he dropped out of college, to work for a startup that was, angel funded. Ane, the stories he tells me about the spending there, like their money was no object, right?

[00:04:59] You were going out to 500 lunches regularly. It wasn’t their money. And then many, many years later, he started his own company. Very, very different decision-making on like, what are we willing to spend money on or not when it’s our own money, right? Such a different perspective.

[00:05:16] Linzy: It’s that free money feeling and as you said, debt is easier to get now. Especially with online applications and whatever and, and credit cards. A strategy that I see American therapists use a lot, which I don’t think is so available to us in Canada, is also like the interest-free credit cards, where it’s just like, oh, I’ll just grab an interest-free credit card, put this thing on it.

[00:05:36] And sometimes I have seen people do that strategically where…I see it happen when I do my enrollments, especially for like Money Sales Group Practice Owners, where folks are thinking, okay, if I do the payment plan, it’s 10 percent more if I put it on a credit card and I pay it down.

[00:05:47] Like, And you can just get that card. Like, it’s so easy to get a card with, you know, a 15, 000 limit or something. And what I have seen is if folks are very thoughtful and intentional, they can pay it down. But also, it makes it very easy to just accumulate more and more debt, right? This easy availability of what feels like free money, even though it’s not free money.

[00:06:09] Julie: When you’re taking on debt, you are essentially spending tomorrow’s money today, right? Or tomorrow, next month, next year, but you’re spending it in advance because you’re going to have to pay it at some point, right? So that’s a little bit of the difference is the mindset shift between growing at the speed of cash we’re saving in advance and paying For tomorrow’s expenses today, right?

[00:06:32] Making sacrifices today to be able to afford next month or next year’s expansion versus the opposite of we’re spending it today and then we’re going to have to pay for it, at a later time.

[00:06:44] Linzy: Yeah, and I remember seeing an, it would have been a blog article, I remember seeing a blog article in YNAB, where they talked about how there’s now this availability, too, of so many online checkouts have this, I think Klarna is one of the brands, like, you know, where they break out the payments, and you don’t pay any more, but you pay it in four installments.

[00:07:02] The author talked about looking at like a blazer that he didn’t have money for now. It was like, let’s say a 200 blazer. And it’s like, okay, he could buy it now and pay 50 bucks and then pay 50 bucks for the next three months, but he was like, if I save the money for it, will I want the blazer by the time I save the money? Like, will I still want it? 

[00:07:22] Julie: Right. 

[00:07:22] Linzy: And, and he concluded that he actually wouldn’t. If he actually had to set aside 50 bucks a month of his own money and have that sitting in his accounts, and then had to make the decision, okay, now that I have the 200, do I still want the blazer? It’s like by then the sparkly newness.

[00:07:37] will have worn off, and that will no longer feel like the best use of that 200 bucks, once he has the 200 actually in hand, right? And it doesn’t feel like free money. Which I thought was a concrete illustration of like, yeah, when you slow down too, you get out of that like a shiny object, kind of response because you, you kind of have time to sober up on whatever idea you’re, you’re moving towards.

[00:08:00] Julie: Well, and when we’re talking about expansion specifically, right, in the context of a group practice, there’s a big difference there as well. When you are moving at the speed of cash, you are saving up in advance, and for a lot of our clients, and what I talk about in Profit First for Therapists is, you know, if you save the money in advance, then you have X dollars to go spend and you know it costs you, for example, 50 grand to go open up a new location.

[00:08:25] Okay, now we have 50 grand, or maybe 40 grand, we start looking for a new location, knowing that by the time we find it and sign the contract, all that we’ll have 50 grand. Then you can go and pay for that expansion. But then you’re in a situation where you know the income that you’re that your practice is generating on that day pays already for your expenses So you don’t need that new space to generate income from day one. But when you are using debt to finance that, really you’re saying like we know that when we borrow this money, we’re going to start having to make those monthly payments almost immediately, right, within usually 30 45 days something like that and so you immediately increase your expenses and Without necessarily having an increase of income right away.

[00:09:10] So there’s a lot of ways that this can be beneficial. But so you’re in that crunch and saying we’re hiring, right? We’re spending a lot of time energy and often money to recruit new team members for this space. We’re buying all the things that need to go in that space, the couches, then the tables and the, you know, waiting room and all of that.

[00:09:28] And at the same time, our other expenses still exist, but there’s no additional money to come in versus if you have saved up for it, you know, this is how much money we have to spend. So when you’re going out and buying those couches and chairs and all the equipment. You’re making decisions a little bit differently.

[00:09:46] but you also know the practice is still paying for its expenses. So we are okay. And so you can ramp that new space up in a way that is more intentional because you don’t need the money on day one.

[00:10:00] Linzy: Yeah, I was just thinking about the huge amount of pressure that you end up creating by trying to create ease and kind of grabbing, you know, money earlier. If you’re not intentional about it, it’s like, as you say, for this example, your new space needs to start generating maximum money right away, more money than you need to generate before, which is a huge amount of pressure to put on your business, on your team, on yourself.

[00:10:24] I could see that having a lot of costs, not just financial costs, but emotional costs to then have taken on this, this much larger debt burden, right? These payments are now going to start having to be made every single month.

[00:10:38] Julie: And even when you are planning, I think debt can always be the backup plan, right? I am a big advocate of group practices having a line of credit because emergencies will happen, right? Things will come up. And having a line of credit means that you’re not going to the payday lenders of the small business for really, really expensive money, right?

[00:10:59] Where you have kind of this buffer, like, Oh yeah, this payment didn’t come through. We still have to make payroll, right? So, the money will be here in a few days. But it’s the backup, and not the main plan because when you, use it as like, this is the plan and you’ve maxed out that line of credit if something happens, then there is nowhere else.

[.00:11:18] to go. Or… the more desperate you are when you’re looking at debt, the less those terms will be favorable for you, right? We often see emergency loans have almost a 50 percent interest rate, right? It’s loan shark-style interest rates. And once you do that very first one, it is such a hard hole to get out of.

[00:11:42] It is so hard to get out of that. I’ve seen it more times than I can count over the last, you know, several years, unfortunately. 

[00:11:49] Linzy: And I’ve seen folks in that position before, and those loans are highly predatory. They’re set up so that you can’t pay it off early, even if you do manage to find the cash, you’re not getting out. And yeah, and the amount that you are charged is, is astronomical, and I think, you know, what I, what I’m hearing here is, almost like debt is supposed to be your plan B. If you use plan B first and there’s no plan A, you become very vulnerable, right?

[00:12:11] Especially in a larger practice as you’re talking about where there’s payroll and suddenly you need 15, 000 because some, you know, insurance payer stopped, which we all saw last year. Then, you are going to people who do not care about you and are looking to wring as much money out of you as possible.

[00:12:28] So I’m hearing that that is a pitfall of folks, you know, using debt up front is in some ways it makes you even more vulnerable to worse kinds of debt because you’ve already used kind of your healthier debt as your first move and then your second move is terrible, right? Your options dry up very fast.

[00:12:48] Julie: And when you are already in a tough situation, it’s harder to get loans.

[00:12:54] So when things are not going well is usually not the time that your bank is like, Oh yeah. We would love to give you money. Right. I know, I am just going through a line of credit increase. I’ve never used my line of credit, but I still have one.

[00:13:07] And we’re increasing it because the needs of the business are just different at this point. And it has been a month-long process just for an increase of a line of credit that I already have. Right? And so we’re not in a desperate place. It’s not, it’s just more of a risk management, tactic at this point.

[00:13:22] But if I needed that money, I probably wouldn’t have a month to wait to get that loan. And that’s, that’s how, You know, practice owners can get into hot water. And I talk about it from a group practice perspective. It’s not that, solo practices will never need that or never incur debt, right?

[00:13:38] It’s not that it’s just the numbers get bigger as we are in group practice. 

[00:13:43] And there’s more moving pieces, right? So if you are in solo practice, and you didn’t get an insurance check this week, yeah, it’s a big deal, but you know, hopefully, you have a little bit of personal savings at home. Maybe you have a spouse that also works.

[00:13:57] And so it’s not just a life or death situation, but if you have 200, 000 in a monthly payroll, and a hundred thousand dollars didn’t come in, I mean, that is the livelihood of, 10 plus people on your team, right? And so they’re a little bit more extreme situations.

[00:14:16] Linzy: the principle that you’re talking about is amplified in group practice. It’s just, there’s just so much more risk that you’re taking in general as a group practice owner, more reward, but more risk, which means that, yeah, if you run into a situation like this, it’s going to be much more extreme. I’m curious, what other pitfalls have you seen private practice owners face when they start to grow their business on debt? Like I’m hearing a few costs already. Are there other things that you also see?

[00:14:41] Julie: Yeah.There’s this, this narrative sometimes that they, or the story that the business owners will tell themselves of, Oh, but we’re doing this because dot, dot, dot, right down the road. Right. So we’re incurring debt now, but it’s because we’re going to get this big contract.

[00:14:56] Linzy: Yes

[00:14:58] Julie: And the big contract will save everything and in a lot of cases that will be true, but what if you don’t get the contract, What if you were laying this foundation for something that is never coming? And then what, right? Then it starts the spiral of debtAndnd so, It can be a slippery slope, and we were chatting about that a little bit before we started recording, but I come at accounting from a place of, you know, with my family narrative, right?

[00:15:25] And I had a mom who started a lot of businesses, and her businesses, unfortunately, all failed. I saw as a child how that affects everyone around the business owner, right? It’s not just about, Oh, my business failed. It affects the children, the community, and the people who work in the business, right?

[00:15:41] There’s so, so much, downstream effect from that. And so I tend to be just a little bit cautious when I approach the money side of things because that’s how I feel comfortable with things. And so I’m not a particularly aggressive accountant. That’s just not my style. And sleep well at night, by doing things that way.

[00:16:04] Right? I would always prefer to err on the side of my client being protected and okay with ensuring the survival of their practice, rather than being a little too aggressive and taking too many risks maybe it pays off, but maybe they lose their business in the long run. That’s not a gamble worth taking for some people.

[00:16:24] It might be, but for me it’s not. 

[00:16:25] Linzy: Yeah, and I will say that narrative resonates with me as well because I also had, my dad was a business owner, who had a business that failed, as a large, business. And yeah, that knock-on effect, because You know, I’ve talked about this on the podcast a little bit before. I did an episode with Megan Megenson and Tiffany McLain talking about our dads in business and the stories you end up inheriting as a child growing up in an entrepreneurial household.

[00:16:47] And, when my dad’s business failed, it left my parents with a hundred thousand dollars of debt in the nineties. Which is a lot of money, and I do see the effects of that, not just financially, but also emotionally, the kind of resentment that can be around that. And in my family, it ended up being fine in the sense that we had other folks, in the family who had financial stability,

[00:17:11] who are my grandparents who interestingly were completely debt adverse. Like I think my grandparents had a mortgage for all of five days when there was a gap between selling the farm and the money showing up from the farm, and paying off the house in town. And my grandfather like was losing it for that whole time.

[00:17:24] He was like the opposite, like so tight, so conservative, like never opened the purse strings. But yeah, there can be a huge impact. And I think this is where there’s this balance point because the other thing that I do find myself talking to my students about is kind of the opposite perspective of this, which is that debt can be strategic, or at least it’s not bad.

[00:17:48] If you have it already, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s not shameful. You didn’t mess up. This is the financial situation you’re sitting with, and it can be managed thoughtfully. But what I’m hearing you talk about here, and what you’re pinging me into is that if we are too casual about it though, if we’re not thoughtful, if we’re like not even regarding the speed of cash, we’re just trying to move as fast as we possibly can, that we can like paint ourself into a corner when it comes to debt.

[00:18:14] And I’m curious like what you’ve seen with that where folks when it starts to kind of like spiral out of control for folks in private practice.

[00:18:21] Julie: Well, so what I have seen happen, there’s, there’s a lot of different scenarios that can happen, but one thing that I’ve seen often is like, oh, I grew my practice from zero to 1 million. Surely I can, You know, I can double it again, right? And absolutely, that’s possible. But, what often happens is in that 0 to 1 million, lifestyle has increased as well. If you’re making a lot more money in your practice, you should, et to enjoy some of that, right? Like zero shame for that. But often we see at that point is like, but they’re not willing to make any sacrifices at all on that. And when you’re growing a business, it’s very normal to make less money.

[00:19:02] And it’s something that I talk about often. And then we try to prepare our clients for like, Hey, in this, Six to 12 month period after you’re opening a new location, there’s a good chance you’re going to have less profit. And we know that, right? Let’s go in knowing that and prepare for that. So that when we’re in it, we can remind ourselves like, oh yeah, we’re in the hard part.

[00:19:22] But we’re doing this because then later we’re going to make more money. But if the practice owner is still trying to live the same life and take out every single penny they can from the practice, they can paint themselves into a corner personally and professionally in the business where they’re racking up credit cards and then coming to a meeting and say like, Hey, I have like 20, 000 in credit card debt that I need to pay off.

[00:19:45] Like, can I take more money from the business? Like, wait, wait a second. What happened? 

[00:19:49] You can’t, there is no money for you to take right now because we’re in this period, right? So then that will just keep growing and snowballing and then there’s riskier and riskier loans on the business side at that point.

[00:20:03] And so it could just make for a difficult situation, right? So it’s always okay to say, Hey, at this point of the business or in my life, I want to take as much money as I can out. And so I’m going to choose to just keep things where they are right now. That’s super valid. That’s super valid to say my home life and the expenses I have at home are more important right now.

[00:20:25] So we’re not going to make changes. But when you’re going into that period of growth, there are some sacrifices to be made generally, right? Both financially and in time. Unreasonable in most cases to think that you’re going to double your business and that you’re not going to have to work a little bit more in it, right?

[00:20:42] Like that you’re not, you’re going to, you know, work four hours a day and golf every Friday. That’s probably not the case if you’re doubling your business. So kind of, thinking about those things help you. Look at reality as well what does my life need to look like for this to be true?

[00:21:01] And am I willing to make those sacrifices?

[00:21:04] Linzy: I mean the word that’s coming to me here is a phrase that, that I use when I talk with my, especially my group practice students, but also my solo practice students is having that big picture perspective. And I think the concept of moving at the speed of cash is a big big-picture perspective. It’s like the money’s coming, but it’s not here right now.

[00:21:20] So rather than making this purchase today, I’m going to make this purchase in a year and I’m going to save, 4, 000 bucks a month. And then by the time I get there, I’m going to have. 50, 000 almost, to work with cash. So that’s a big big-picture perspective. But what I’m also hearing here, too, is having that perspective and self-restraint in terms of we’re going from A to B, and things are going to be harder in the middle, but we’re doing this for a reason, but sacrifices have to be made, right?

[00:21:45] I can’t expect everything to look the same when I’m also trying to make these huge changes in my practice. Right? And it’s like having that zoom out to, to be able to see it will be worth it. But right now. Things are going to be harder or there’s going to be, as you say, less profit available. And the numbers are not going to look the way that I want them to look.

[00:22:03] But if you’re working a plan, then they will look how you want them to look six months or a year, into that new situation. And I think that those can be hard skills to build for people to have that big-picture perspective. And think about maybe discipline and sacrifice. I don’t know. There was a part of me that wanted to say, I don’t think that those are big parts of our culture in North America. But then I also know certain folks are self-disciplined and self-sacrificing, almost to a fault if I think about like my grandfather, for instance, but he was from, you know, a different generation.

[00:22:34] They saw the depression. You know, that was a different time. But I, I am curious, like, why do you think this can be challenging for folks to have or develop these more zoomed-out perspectives? Like, why do we even have to have this conversation about moving at the speed of cash?

[00:22:49] Julie: I think we are now in an era in our culture where we want things now. We know what we want and we want it now, and we’re not often willing to wait. Right. I’m a hundred. Guilty of that. But there’s this kind of immediacy to the Amazon Prime culture, right? Like, oh, you can get it tomorrow, right?

[00:23:11] I was just telling my kids yesterday, back in my day, uh, if you wanted something, sometimes you had to wait until Christmas to get it, right? And there wasn’t like, Oh, let’s just order it and it will be here in two days. That’s that wasn’t a thing. I think we have become like that, to some extent, you know, as adults as well, right?

[00:23:30] I’m like, Oh, well, if I did that in three years, maybe I can do it in one, right? And like, let, let’s just see. And, I think there’s a very big difference between growing a practice, From one to two million over five years, and not doing that in one year, right? Everything’s going to break.

[00:23:47] Everything needs to be reinvented. So like it always is possible if you want to grow your practice, it’s always possible, but the speed at which you’re trying to do it is going to have an impact on your cash, your cash flow, your cash needs, and your personal life as well. And to, to think that’s not going to be the case, it’s not helpful because then you end up mid-project and realizing like, Oh wait, this is not what I was hoping for.

[00:24:13] Linzy: Yes. Yeah. That, that culture of, of what it would be like, uh, immediate fulfillment or whatever, I know, there’s a more succinct phrase for it, but, I do think that it’s kind of like the Amazonification of life, as you say. And we just become more and more used to the fact that you can just get things instantly.

[00:24:33] And I would be. Interested almost like zooming out and understanding this from… I think global production has a lot to do with it. Like we can just get stuff so easily now. And the availability of stuff that, just wasn’t available in previous generations that yeah, there is this, this lack of patience.

[00:24:51] We’re impatient. We want everything today. And sometimes, you know, I think there’s some good questions to ask ourselves are like, Why? Why do you need to grow your practice in a year instead of five? Like, what’s the actual benefit of that? Because part of it too is I think often that fantasy of what it’s going to be, right?

[00:25:09] Where we’re buying into the fantasy of, well, it’s worth it for me to take on this debt to have this thing today because it’s going to make my life so much better. And what I also think is true of so many things in life, including personal things that you can buy or personal experiences, but also business experiences is once you get to a new level, you just kind of get used to it and it’s your life, right? And there are certainly, I think, huge improvements that happen in our life between making 11, 000 a year, which at some point in my 20s is what I made, and 100, 000 a year, right? There’s a huge difference in quality between that range. But once you start to get kind of above those numbers, Life doesn’t get that much better once your basic needs are met. And I know there’s, there’s debate about this idea. I’ve seen other folks debate that life does get easier and easier the more money you have, but I am, I am curious, about your perspective, on this.

[00:26:02] Julie: It’s almost like more of a philosophical question of, yeah, like, Yeah,

[00:26:07] And… what is true about what makes, Life or business so much better? Yeah, I think there’s often this fantasy in, group practice. Like if I get it, if I could just get it to this bigger size, then I will finally be able to work less. And it’s not… it’s often not about the size. It’s about the systems that you have set up, right? There is a certain point where you can now afford to have admin, right?

[00:26:35] Where you’re not doing that, right? Like, so there are some milestones where, okay, that’s, it’s possible. You’re not doing that thing anymore, but you’re still doing a lot of other things. And it’s not usually about the dollar amount. It’s really about how have you set things up. Are they dependent on you or not?

[00:26:51] And this is something funny. I hear often solo practice owners, say, well, I’d like to start a group because that’s going to be passive income and I cannot help but laugh because there is nothing, nothing passive about a group practice. It is so much work, right? And, but they sometimes don’t realize that until they get in and like, oh, wait! I will also often hear from

[00:27:13] New group practice owners who say like, Oh, I have two part-time clinicians. Can I stop seeing clients? No, you cannot. Absolutely. There’s not enough revenue coming into this practice for a full-time administrative person. Right? But like, just have that expectation of what it is. What it is going, to be and what it’s going to do those things.

[00:27:41]  Linzy: Yeah and you know, it makes me think about, you know, this kind of like larger piece that I’m, I was trying to get at is it’s more about the how rather than the what is what I’m hearing. So it’s like, we have this fantasy of when this, then this, but it’s, it’s usually more about how you’re actually.

[00:27:56] Managing your schedule day to day. Are you taking the time to take care of yourself? Right, like, are you prioritizing things that matter to you that you could be prioritizing now and you don’t need to be at x, y, z point to be able to go for a walk at lunch, or like meet up with your best friend, or take the day off early to go see your kids play, like, those things are often available to us way sooner than we think, but there is this fantasy that once we get here, then it’s going to be… It’s almost like once we get here, then our behavior will magically change because that’s what needs to happen it’s, your behavior needs to change and your systems need to change or your way of relating to things needs to change.

[00:28:33] It’s not actually about the dollars or the numbers to, you know, again, once we’re past that certain point where your basic needs are met.

[00:28:41] Julie: Right. Basic needs are met. And I think there’s, definitely an opportunity at any size of practice to build in the things that are important to you, right? And it’s not like what is important to everyone else. As for me, I love it, I have school-aged children. I love going to the bus in the morning and the afternoon.

[00:29:01] I love that because my kids are very chatty at that time of day. And so that’s something that I prioritize. It’s on my schedule. It doesn’t take a whole lot of time, but most days of the week I go to the bus twice a 

[00:29:15] Day because I love it so much, right? Like I don’t that doesn’t need to be something that’s a big milestone in the future, right?

[00:29:23] And so some days I work a lot longer than I should, but I make time for that one thing that’s super important to me and then I’ve had that moment of connection with my kids and I go back to work and I do the things and like That has been my win. Right. So like, it’s not a specific dollar amount that magically changed all of that.

[00:29:44] It’s just, how I organize my day in a way that I can make that.

[00:29:47] Linzy: Yeah. And I think it’s owning that that’s important to you and prioritizing it. Not letting it fall to the wayside because somebody else wants to, some random person wants to have a meeting with you to network at that time, which is not more important than your kids.

[00:30:00] Julie: Guess what? It’s blocked.

[00:30:01] Linzy: Yeah

[00:30:01] Julie: It’s not available.

[00:30:02] Linzy: Yes, you’ve defaulted toward what matters to you. And I think there’s so much wisdom in that. And I think that applies to private practice. It applies to our lives. Like make sure that you’re, even if it can only be incremental, you’re incrementally bringing the things that matter to you now.

[00:30:18] And not thinking that some magical point on the horizon is where you’re going to start living the life that you want. Because a lot of living the life that we want is about, you know, habits and, and discipline and like sticking with it. And those things don’t just show up when you have a certain net worth.

[00:30:33] Julie: Yeah, and it does take some money in some cases, right? Some of it takes money. But if the, if the goal is, I want to take a vacation once a year with my kids, like, okay, I think that’s great. Or my, my family or my spouse or my best friend, That doesn’t require millions of dollars to do that, right? They might be, for now, more modest vacations.

[00:30:55] And then later fancier vacation, right? But like, there’s, it’s not if we don’t do a 20,000 vacation, it’s not worth it, right? Like, it is, is worth it. Like, how can we make this happen now? We digressed so far from our topic.

[00:31:12] Linzy: Okay. Let’s come back. Let’s come back. Coming back to this moving at the speed of cash, you know, like managing money effectively. What, what are some strategies that therapists can use to not fall into these debt traps, and to avoid taking on so much debt that they do create a problem? What do you suggest?

[00:31:29] Julie: Yeah, I think planning is, the big one. So just by planning, even if you’re going to use debt, I would still encourage planning. Like, okay, if we’re going to take out a 5,000 loan. How are we going to use this money wisely so that we can? Make our money back, right? Plan it in a way, that is going to generate income for the practice.

[00:31:52] And then what’s the plan for paying it back? How are we going to make those things happen? If there’s no plan to pay it back, then why are we doing this? And if it’s not going to help us generate more money, then why are we doing this? Right. And so there’s a big difference between getting a loan of 5, 000 to hire a really.

[00:32:09]Keyy person on the team versus tbuyingnew furniture, right? The furniture is not generating income. A person generally is, right? So just sit down and look at what other alternatives are there as well. Is there another way for us to do it? Can I wait two three or six months? Is there a payment plan, right?

[00:32:27] Maybe you’re thinking about making a big investment in your business, mand aybe that is working with a coach like you, Lin Zy. That absolutely can have a huge return on investment for your practice. But if you can’t afford the full payment today, can you do a three or

[00:32:46] Maybe that makes sense. And then you are at that point, moving at the speed of cash. Yeah, it’s going to be a little more expensive typically, but you are, you are doing it in a way that makes sense for you and then it’s not putting you in a difficult

[00:32:57] Linzy: Yes

[00:32:59] Julie: So that’s kind of how I like to, to think about it.

[00:33:02] And, the third piece would be, do I need to do this now? Is this a decision where if we don’t make it today, it will never come back again? Is it truly or will there be another opportunity in the future that we should wait to be more financially prepared for?

[00:33:20] I just think my philosophy is that as a business owner, your primary responsibility is ensuring the, continued success of the practice, that the practice survives.

[00:33:35] And so a lot of the decisions that you have to make are in the spirit of, is this in service of is the practice surviving or not?

[00:33:43] And so that applies to so many different decisions, right? If you are paying someone more than you can afford, is this in service to the practice long-term or not? Right? No, it’s, it’s putting us in this hole that we’re going to have to dig out of. We’re better off not making this decision.

[00:34:00] Because the goal is for the practice to continue to operate successfully and profitably that means it keeps serving the people that it serves.

[00:34:10] It is in service to you. It is in service to you, your clinicians, your clients, your community, to everyone around you.

[00:34:16] Linzy: Yes, that big-picture perspective.

[00:34:18] Julie: Yeah, exactly. That takes a zoom-out again, right? I’m like, it’s not just about this one decision of really want to hire this clinician, or I want this new office…

[00:34:26] Linzy: Yes

[00:34:28] Julie: Does it support the survival of the practice? Yes or no?

[00:34:32] Linzy: Great. Beautiful. Julie, for folks who want to get further into your world, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:34:39] Julie: Yes. I have a podcast called Therapy for Your Money, where all I do is talk about, money topics for therapists in private practice. And so that’s a great place to start. I also have an entire accounting firm. We serve practice owners across the United States, and you can find us, including a whole lot of resources,

[00:35:00] Our blog, we have some courses and our monthly accounting services. You can find that at greenoakeccounting. com.

[00:35:07] Linzy: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Julie, for joining me today.

[00:35:10] Julie: Thank you, Linzy. 

[00:35:11] Linzy: There are so many pieces to this conversation today that I would love to just like, keep jamming on, but I am not going to record a 15-minute outro. But what Julie is talking about here with this moving at the speed of cash relates so much as we were talking to being able to zoom out and take perspective on your business and your life.

[00:35:30] And this can be so hard in the culture that we live in, this instant gratification culture, and also with the fantasy that more is always better. It can be very tempting to just go for what we want right away, to take on big debt, to do what we want right away, but it is often so much more strategic to slow down.

[00:35:52] And whether it’s slowing down and waiting to take that course, the next time that it comes around, rather than this time, or as Julie said, saving up the money to do a build-out on a new space before you move into that space. Slowing down also lets you double-check that this is actually what you want and actually what is good for your business.

[00:36:15] And by the time that opportunity comes around, or by the time the money’s saved, maybe it’s not going to be what makes sense for you anymore. But by slowing down, you give yourself the gift of being deliberate and thoughtful, which is moving against the current of capitalism and this idea of endless growth, and bigger is better.

[00:36:32] But also as we mentioned, this kind of like Amazonification, which is way too long of a word, but you know what I mean, of our culture and this, this desire for instant gratification. So, so much here. And I love Julie’s suggestion of, you know, these budgeting skills of like deferring the purchase. I’m always a fan of the idea of the right thing at the right time, and I have that conversation with folks a lot when they’re considering joining me in Money Skills for Therapists or Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, is it the right thing at the right time?

[00:36:58] Just because something is right for you doesn’t mean it’s the right time, and sometimes something not being the right time is because the money’s not available and you’re going to put yourself into financial duress to try to make it happen now. But the money will be available in six months or a year when this opportunity comes around again.

[00:37:13] So lots and lots to think about here. I always love talking with Julie. You missed the part before we recorded and after where we just loved on each other for a while because I have so much respect for her. And, and likewise. She’s a wonderful person in this very specific little pool that I’m in of helping therapists with money.

[00:37:31] And so appreciate her coming onto the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please tell other therapists about it, other health practitioners, or coach friends that you have. We are having such specific conversations here. And it is so helpful for us when you tell the folks that you know will benefit from these conversations about the podcast.

[00:37:56] It’s the best way for other folks to hear about us and be part of these conversations. Thanks so much for joining me today.