Meet Stephanie Clairmont

[00:00:00] Stephanie: This may be shifting something there for you, and it’s challenging, But I would say it’s more powerful because over time you do repeat yourself. You do have a toolbox of like 20 things that you say to people, and when you can sort of pull that out and map that out, it actually frees you from needing it to be on you.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s podcast episode is with Stephanie Clairmont. Steph is returning to the podcast. This is her second time on the podcast with me, and Steph’s business is The Leveraged Practice, which is all about helping therapists and health practitioners build online programs.

[00:01:08] In the time that I’ve known Steph, I have seen an increase in my own students talking about wanting to expand what they do, wanting to take the one on one conversations that they’re having with clients and expand into a course, or a membership community, and Steph is always the name that I give if you want to take what you do

[00:01:29] clinically, the kind of treatment that you do with folks, if you want to turn that into a product. That is exactly what Steph teaches. But of course there is a lot to that. So today, Steph and I talk about some of the barriers that come up specifically for therapists, working with mental health therapists or folks who are more on the kind of sensitive side of the spectrum, who are in other health professions.

[00:01:50] We talk about the specific barriers that come up for folks like us as we’re stepping out and wanting to create something beyond one on one work. We talk about changes that are happening in the health space, the way that tech is starting to show up and change the way that people expect to access things, and the importance of paying attention to those changes, and being part of those changes or at least being aware of them. Claiming some of that for yourself.

[00:02:14] And then we also got into this conversation about control, and the work that we do as therapists. And the control that comes with being one on one with somebody, that attunement, and also the responsibility, and how we need to change our relationship to that when we decide to have a bigger impact and bottle up what we do to be able to help folks on a larger scale.

[00:02:36] There was lots to that conversation. I feel like that was a conversation that warrants more attention. Here is my conversation with Stephanie Clairmont. 

[00:03:00] Linzy: So Steph, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:03:03] Stephanie: Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here.

[00:03:05] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s been… has it been a couple of years since we recorded your last one? Is that true?

[00:03:10] Stephanie: I don’t know, maybe. Yeah, I was thinking this, I’ve got to get on the annual rotation, you know? Have my guests back, be back in the places.

[00:03:18] Linzy: Yes. So this is your return visit. And I know the last time you were on this podcast, some folks listening to this podcast actually ended up joining your course. So definitely what you were talking about, very relevant for the folks who are listening.

[00:03:31] And so where I wanted to start today, Steph, is I’m seeing in my own students, like in the folks who are in Money Skills for Therapists or Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, a very positive change. More and more, I’m seeing that folks who are doing one on one are realizing like, “Hey, this thing that I do, I could actually be doing this in a different way.”

[00:03:49] Like I could be teaching this. This could be a course. I could do some coaching. Like I could do this on a bigger level. But they are still busy therapists who have a full caseload. So there’s this question that I see them starting to grapple with. Which is like, where do you start? If you want to start to build something else,

[00:04:08] What is the first step of starting to move into offering what you do in a different way outside of one on ones?

[00:04:15] Stephanie: I’ll share with you what I often share as the first step. What I find is, And I… Just so you know, we have a lot of therapists in our community as well as dietitians, medical doctors, nurses, physiotherapy, all of our allied health professions and wellness professionals.

[00:04:29] That’s who we work with. I was a dietitian, I’m a retired dietitian now, but I have a lot of work with my lovely therapist clients. So in regards to where we start, for me in working with, you know, hundreds of people at this point, I find that you have to understand what it looks like and what it feels like because it’s so far out of your realm of, here’s the work I do.

[00:04:50] I work with people. Custom approach every single minute of every day where I base my education or guidelines on what they say. Very custom. That’s how it feels to you. And this feels very different. So I believe the first place you need to start with is to understand the different models of what we call online programs.

[00:05:09] So not just a course, although we could call it a program or a course, it doesn’t really matter. But the different models that you can do. And so, Linzy, the two most popular ones I would say from my clients, and especially therapists, are to start with a hybrid model, which means all the things that you repeat day to day.

[00:05:28] There are repeatable parts. I know you think it’s custom, but there are a lot of repeatable parts that you’re doing and saying over and over again. We can pull those out and put those into let’s just call it a 12 week program, or a 12 module program, and you can still offer one to ones, but maybe only once every month, or once every two weeks, if that gives you anxiety, and you’re used to weekly. So a hybrid program allows you to spread out the one to one appointments a little further apart because there’s education in between, and it allows a lot of my clients to actually shorten those appointments.

[00:06:00] So instead of a 55 minute appointment, it might be a 45 minute appointment, or even a 30 minute appointment over time. So you’re really finding freedom in the capacity to help people with less time, which is really cool. So you want to start to think about, or start to learn about these models.

[00:06:17] One is hybrid, so we still see people one to one, and then we have some group program elements. Another model would be a small group cohort. So that’s one where we take a maximum number of people. Eight people, 10 people, you know, start small and you run that group for again, eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, whatever you’d like to.

[00:06:37] And you meet with those people weekly, but it’s a small group. So I’m pulling away the layers of anxiety that might block you like, “Ah, so many people! I don’t know what I’m doing!” Or what if they aren’t getting the change, and I need to talk to them personally. Those are two great models to start out with.

[00:06:53] Another model that I think, Linzy, everybody always thinks about is just sort of that self study course.

[00:06:58] Stephanie: There’s no support, there’s no help. There’s literally not even email support. It’s just a self-study course. Those kinds of courses or programs, they sell for not very much, honestly, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks, a couple hundred dollars.

[00:07:09] So financially, it might not meet your goals, or your impact goals. Like you want to help hundreds more people or thousands of people. And you could with a smaller price point, but there’s still a lot of things that come into that. But what I want you to think about is in that product, there is no support.

[00:07:26] So if that gives you… I’m just talking a lot about anxiety today. But if that doesn’t make you feel good that you’re just going to put this thing out on the internet and hopefully people get results from it, then don’t do that. Don’t do self study. If you are a fine-tuned, revised version of your services, and you know that program can be an awesome self-study, which is rare in the very beginning, then that could still be an awesome option for you.

[00:07:52] It’s just what you’re doing with clients, but at a really affordable price point, 100, 200, you want to put that in the market. Maybe you have a wait list, or you have a lot of people that want to work with you. That can be a cool option.

[00:08:02] Stephanie: It does require some refinement over time. It’s a different type of service.

[00:08:06] So that’s sort of where we start is, you know, what direction do you want to go in? Also, just thinking about getting started. What you start doing in the next six to 12 months isn’t necessarily where your business lands five years from now, or even three years from now. So if you could start thinking about what you could do, the length of time could be shorter and just getting out there that’s sort of the beginning for me is the models and then it would be sort of that brainstorming stage.

[00:08:31] What are all those repeatable parts like I mentioned earlier? Just start writing them down every day. What did I repeat 10 times today? And that helps you start to create the online education component.

[00:08:42] Linzy: And I think the models make so much sense, because… I mean, and when you’re saying models, I’m thinking of the word container, too. it’s like, okay, what is the container that feels good for you, that doesn’t cause as much anxiety, to go to your anxiety word, right? And what I love about what you’re describing with, say, the hybrid model, is I can see how that still gives those of us who are used to having a lot of attunement, a lot of that. As you said, when you’re doing a session, it’s like every session is custom.

[00:09:06] Every session, you know, you’re sharing information and you are repeating information. You said it a lot of times, but you’re also getting the chance to read their response. Is this too fast? Is this too slow? Do they understand my language? Do I need to re-explain another concept that maybe they missed?

[00:09:18] Right. You’re getting to really customize and really attune to that person, whereas if you go all the way to what you’re talking about of the self study pre-recorded, which is, yeah, I think what we think of because that’s what we see from the people who we know. The really big people, they have self study, right?

[00:09:33] But they’ve also been doing this work for five years, 10 years, 15 years, and they have things that they know work. There is all this space in between where we can be bottling up some of it, but still having those human interactions that let us know that like people are getting it, like they’re getting the value.

[00:09:48] I could see that being reassuring for folks to start that way.

[00:09:52] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s why I said small cohort, too. if you really don’t because some people are like, “No thank you. I want to get out of one to one. I don’t have the capacity for this.” Then a small group like eight weeks, 12 weeks. You can even do six weeks if you want. It’s like ripping off that band aid. I always tell people at once you get Over this hump and you have run an online program, even if it’s for six weeks with four people,

[00:10:14] you will be a different version of yourself. You will have more confidence. You’ll be more excited about it. And that helps, Linzy. The length of time helps as well as what you mentioned there, where we make it a small group, or we add a couple of one to ones in there so we can connect with those people and really make sure that we’re learning along the way and helping.

[00:10:32] Linzy: Yeah. And then I think the next piece that I noticed coming up with my students is when they are starting to decide, okay, I want to build a course. I want to build a group. I want to build a membership site. They’ve got more of a sense of the container. What I see folks struggle with so much, Steph, is like investing the time.

[00:10:51] Right? Like actually putting the time. Because they have maybe a full caseload already. Usually by the time we start thinking about doing these things, it’s ’cause what we’re doing is working. Your practice is full, you’ve got clients galore, maybe coming out of your ears, endless wait list. And then it’s like you have to build this thing, but how do you fit it in?

So what do you suggest for folks with that piece of the puzzle? Once you decide, okay, I want the rubber to hit the road, how do you actually make it happen?

[00:11:07] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s great. And I’m really blunt when it comes to this. Just for any of you who have not met me before. I’m very honest about this, and I don’t think a lot of people do because it’s different from what you know, right? There’s a technology piece there, there’s a marketing piece there, and there’s the discomfort of teaching in a different way.

[00:11:33] And for some recording yourself on a camera, there are some uncomfortable moments that you will need to push through or work through if this is something you want to do. And that is totally cool. We all know like discomfort helps us grow, like I’m sure you’ve got literally a mantra on your wall right now about discomfort. So like we all know that. Do we want to do it or not is the question?

[00:11:58] So there are those moments. And so when I look at The time piece, just so you know, I’ve been launching online programs since 2013. That was my first online program. So I’ve created more than a hundred programs at this point, and worked with over 500 clients in launching theirs. So when you hear my advice, which you can agree or disagree with, that’s where it’s coming from.

[00:12:19] It’s not necessarily my opinion, but it’s like seeing what has actually worked for people. So number one is that you can pay money. You can keep working your full time job, you’re nine to five seeing all your patients, making that money that you’re making. You can take some of that money, and you can say, Hey, go build my course. Like hire a technician, like our company does tech, but whoever, like hire someone to technically build the course. Hire someone to create the web pages, like all of the pieces that need to be built around this, which is the technical aspect and web pages, you could pay for that. Take that off of your desk.

[00:12:52] That’s amazing. And that costs money. Okay. I’m going to start with money because you might actually prefer that. Because the other one is time. And in order to get the time, to me, there are two options. And Linzy, you can tell me if you have another option that you’ve seen work. But to me, there are really two options.

[00:13:09] One, you overwork yourself. So you do your normal job, you see all your patients, you make your money, you run your practice, you manage your people, and whatever hours that is in a week, let’s say it’s 40 hours a week, you are working evenings and weekends. And sacrificing friendship, party, basketball practice, all the things. Because it takes time, and you don’t want to take that time from your working hours.

[00:13:35] And so you just work your buns off evenings and weekends for, let’s say, two to three months to create the product you’re going to sell. Once you create a product, which is our program or our course, you have that baby forever. And you might refine it or tweak it or add to it or change it, but creating something that you can sell over and over again is so powerful.

[00:13:57] I think we could all have that, every single health professional, no matter what kind of thing you do, you could have that different way to serve people. So… But it does take, in my opinion, somewhere between eight to 12 weeks to actually create that of dedicated working time. So that’s another option. And the third option for time is…

[00:14:15] And I’ve done this, honestly, multiple times and it sucks, but to take time away from your working hours. So if you’re working 40 hours a week, if you’re seeing what would be an average caseload, Linzy, like maybe 30 people a week, is that a lot?

[00:14:30] Linzy: Yeah, mental health. It’s probably like 25 is more towards max. Yeah, maybe 20 to 25.

[00:14:37] Stephanie: So, let’s say we’re doing 25. Then if you’re doing 25, again, we could put those in four days, and then maybe you have one day, but you’re probably doing admin or other stuff there.

[00:14:47] So you’ve got to kind of look at your working hours, and you may cut back. You may cut back a whole day and work one day a week on this and literally take a pay cut.

[00:14:56] Take a full out pay cut, or another way that I really see successful is that you don’t actually take a whole day. A lot of people think they need that, but you take two to three hours a couple of days a week.

[00:15:06] Stephanie: And so again, you could work those longer hours, or you could take away, you know, let’s say four clients on a weekly basis. So you go from 25 to 21. And instead, during those, you know, two and a half, let’s call it, time blocks, you’re actually working on this. And again, it’s a pay cut. So you’re spending money hiring other people to do the work for you as much as you can, or you’re overworking yourself, which in my opinion is totally fine.

[00:15:31] You live your life. I have no judgment. If you’re going to pay money, overwork yourself, or take a pay cut, like it doesn’t matter, right? It’s your life. Nothing’s right or wrong. So you’re overworking yourself for a period of time. Cool. Lots of people do that. That’s how they push through. Or number three is we actually take a pay cut.

[00:15:47] And when I launched my membership, Linzy, I launched an IBS membership in 2017. This was like my big program that I grew and grew. We sold a hundred spots in the weekend when we launched it. I didn’t take a client, a one to one client, for three months while I built that membership. I created the courses.

[00:16:03] I did the tech myself. I graphically designed all the pages. Like I did so much of the work. I didn’t really hire a lot of people to help me, a little bit, but not too much. But it took me three months. Okay. And I was already pretty techie. And I want you to understand that because if you think about how much you’re making on a monthly basis… Let’s see, you’re making 10, 10 grand.

[00:16:23] I don’t know. Maybe you’re making more. Maybe you’re making less, but that’s 30 grand

[00:16:26] you will lose, which is fine, if you do it like all on your own, which I do think there’s a combination of hiring technical people to help us build stuff, you know, taking some time to create ourselves and whatnot.

[00:16:38] Stephanie: So I think there’s a blend there, but I have done that where I literally shut everything down, and I was like, I’m launching this product. And that product brought me to multiple six figures in my business, completely passive income every month. Like that sacrifice that I made there,

[00:16:53] I will, I just, I think it’s completely worth it.

[00:16:56] If you are doing something that people need help with, there are different ways we can serve our people these days, and online programs, courses, memberships, hybrid programs, all of it is just such a beautiful way to add to your practice.

[00:17:08] Linzy: And the word that comes to mind for me when you think about all three of those ways, you know, whether you pay somebody else, whether you basically use your free time, you invest your free time, or you give up money is like there is an investment, right? So it’s a cost in a certain sense, but it’s an investment if you actually get the return, right?

[00:17:27] And like what I see folks struggle with sometimes, Steph, and I’m wondering if you see this is I think a lot of times people struggle with like really buying in. And so where I see folks sometimes struggle is I guess probably part of it is that they’re so good at the other thing that they’re doing.

[00:17:42] And that thing, they’re experts. And it comes second nature and they could do it in their sleep, you know, they could counsel folks about eating disorders at three in the morning when they’re unconscious, right? They’re so good at it. But that’s all very familiar and comfortable. But all of these things, like you said, like tech and stuff, like there’s a huge learning curve and it’s not comfortable, and it’s not easy.

[00:18:02] And it’s a slog at first. The word that comes to mind for me is really it is a slog to learn all of these things, or even to have somebody else do them. Cause even if you’re having somebody else do them, you still have to make decisions, right? You still like… You’re still the boss of it. I think that creates a lot of friction for folks.

[00:18:17] Is that your, do you see that? Or do you think about that differently?

[00:18:20] Stephanie: Absolutely.

[00:18:21] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Stephanie: A hundred percent. I think that’s just a fact. I think you’re like, this is the truth, everybody. If this sounds exciting or fun or curious, like Linzy, I meet people… We just signed a new client, and she’s been thinking about this for over two years. Right? oh, I’ve had an idea for this course, this program.

[00:18:38] I want to help more people. I’d love to make a bit more money that’s highly profitable, high profit margins. it’s taken her two years, so if you’re listening, this is going to happen to me, too, a couple of years. That’s okay. That’s alright. A couple of things I would think about is one, if we could put our entrepreneur hats on.

[00:18:54] For practitioners, starting a business is a little different than other business owners, right? You’re using yourself. You’re leveraging your own skills, and what you learned, and a license, you know, a credential after your name, and you’re saying, I’m going to go serve people. I’m going to see people. I’m going to trade one hour for a dollar amount.

[00:19:12] It’s an interesting business because you can just whip it up out of thin air. You can do it from your own home. Now you can do it online and Zoom from your own home. You literally have barely any overhead. And so that’s really interesting. And I think that for many, you may not have actually felt like you crossed the line to entrepreneurship, to business ownership, because you’re doing your work just for yourself and it, you’ve really created a job for yourself.

[00:19:40] You have clients. I mean, I’ve met people, Linzy, that have no website and no software, but a very full six figure practice. And there’s… and I’m like sweating ’cause I’m like, you don’t… you, how do you chart? You don’t have a charting system? Like I a heart attack. I mean, I’ve been highly technical since I started my entrepreneurship journey because I like to leverage, and I want to be efficient with my time.

[00:20:04] I’ve always loved that and been curious about it. But so, you know, you may straddle between practitioner and entrepreneur, not really even feeling like you’re really like that business owner. And that can be really challenging because that’s what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about putting your business hat on, you’re a business owner.

[00:20:20] And what decision do you need to make for your business? And if we could just do that for a moment, my thought process is that we are in an age of technical. Oh my goodness. With AI, with the, if you look up e-learning, like the online education environment, and what it’s worth right now and how it’s growing, that’s online learning.

[00:20:42] If we look up the health and wellness industry, I actually just looked it up, Linzy, and posted a post on my Instagram, and it’s like trillions. Trillions. Health and wellness is worth trillions as an industry. Okay?, Online learning is worth billions as an industry. Am I doing that right? Trillions, billions, millions.

[00:20:57] Okay. I just did this to my kids last weekend too. I was like, what’s after billions, mom? Trillions. What’s after trillions? I don’t know.

[00:21:05] Can we Google? Can we Google it? So, yeah. We are in an industry where there’s a lot of need and a lot of opportunity. And so I do think it’s important that if you’re an expert and you love working with people and you see yourself doing this work over the next five to 10 years, that you critically think as a business, what do you need to be doing?

[00:21:24] Do you need to be online? Do you need to have. Some sort of online education or programs. So I think we have to sort of think critically as entrepreneurs and make smart business decisions. And like I said, that may work really smoothly for you. You feel like an entrepreneur, you feel like a business owner, or that itself may be difficult to make business decisions becauseI don’t think I felt like a business owner in the beginning.

[00:21:47] I was just a dietician seeing patients, trying to get by, trying to make some money, you know, and then I was like, “Oh wait, I actually want to make more money than this, and I want to work differently.” So then I became a business owner, an entrepreneur, and that kind of mindset, you know? Yeah. I’m curious what you think about that.

[00:22:02] Linzy: Yeah. Well, I’m, you know, I’m thinking about the entrepreneur hat and it’s I think for some folks, they may not really realize they have that hat yet. Or it’s I don’t know. to extend the hat metaphor, it’s like a small hat that’s kind of like teetering at the edge of their head, but they’re not like really wearing it, but it’s kind of there.

[00:22:19] And it protects them from the sun or the rain, but not really. That was a terrible analogy… Teetering hats, not really a thing. But it does make you think about that. Cause I, I noticed that with some of my students sometimes where it’s okay, sink into that space of that, like big picture thinking like that’s strategic.

[00:22:32] And folks are kind of like, Oh, this is like new, right? It’s like, there’s a new neural pathway that has to be formed there. And as you say, I think so many folks do think about themselves as a practitioner who just helps people. Right. I’m just a practitioner and I do my practitioner thing.

[00:22:46] And I do this thing that I’m super, super good at. But yeah, they’re running a business, but not owning that they’re running a business. Or maybe they even have feelings about the word business or like feelings about money. And so they’re making money because they have to pay bills. But for some folks, there’s still that ownership piece.

[00:23:00] Then for other folks, what I see is when people get settled in, you do get to that place of being like, okay, this is now working well enough. But it could be working better. And that’s where you start to be able to get into that place of developing actual business skills and strategy. And part of it is like owning what you’re doing.

[00:23:17] Like you’re running a business, whether you own that or not, that is exactly what you’re doing. In the eyes of the government, that is what you were doing. You will pay taxes on it, whether you think it’s a business or not. That can be almost like the step before all these other steps is owning that.

[00:23:32] Stephanie: Yeah. And I’m a worrier. And so I’m a little worried. Okay. And here’s what I’m worried about. And you can just take this as not a worry and just think of it as a business strategy as well, if I wasn’t worried. Here’s what I’m worried about. Tell me what you see, Linzy, but in our culture of health and wellness, what we’re seeing is a lot of big companies coming out with technical solutions, apps and whatnot, pain.

[00:23:57] Under pain: experts. Therapists with years of experience, dieticians with years of experience,and like credentials, and education, and fricking master’s degrees. And it’s 30 bucks an hour, whatever it is, right? We are seeing what I already explained about the opportunity, other companies coming up and creating this opportunity.

[00:24:16] And what I see, Linzy, is that the industries are not happy about that. In the Facebook groups, on the Instagram, like people are complaining about that. And so, well, okay, just don’t take that job and see what happens to that company. But if that company continues to grow, that’s because somebody is taking those jobs, right?

[00:24:34] And so we see that growing. We see the trend. We see the millions of dollars. We see that. And so what’s going to happen to our professions if we don’t stay up with the way that people are learning, with the way people are accessing care, with the way that people are healing or going through their journey of wellness?

[00:24:55] If we don’t stay up at the practitioner level… You are an entrepreneur, you own a business.At that level, if we don’t move with the times, I worry that brilliant life changing experts that I have met who don’t go there are, I don’t know what’s going to happen in five years. Now, right now, I think there’s a lot of practices that are full, that are busy, and it may not even feel that urgent.

[00:25:20] You know? I think there is a sense of for some of you, you may be like, oh man, I got to do this right now. I’ve been thinking about it for years, but others, I think there’s still a sense of well, my practice is full. And I can’t predict the future. Who knows, maybe it’ll be full forever and ever and ever.

[00:25:32] But when we look at the trends, we look at the industry, and we look at consumer behavior, and we look at our generations moving up, I would love for everyone to stay up on the times. And how do we do that? We find the time. We learn, again, we can hire people like when I started my business, we didn’t have Canva.

[00:25:48] We didn’t have things. I couldn’t do anything by myself. I had to hire graphic designers. I had to hire a web developer. Like I couldn’t do it by myself. Now there’s this huge pressure, I think, to figure out Canva, and make your own posts for the Instagram. Like you guys all have this pressure on you to do that.

[00:26:05] I don’t feel that pressure because I hired for 20 bucks an hour over 10 years ago because I literally couldn’t design a recipe card for my clients. You know, I put a lead magnet up on my website. I needed to hire someone to do it. So all the things. And so that’s okay. We can invest back in our business.

[00:26:23] But, that’s sort of my thought and my concern and my… What I want everyone to think about is how long are you going to have your practice? Where do you want your practice to go in five to 10 years? Who are you serving? How will that change? And then what do we need to do? It doesn’t have to be drastic.

[00:26:37] You know, we can make it as simple as possible, but I don’t know, that’s my worry around that. I don’t know if you have that worry or if you have any thoughts around where the industry is going as a whole.

[00:26:47] Linzy: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t have that worry, but maybe I do now. Thanks, Steph. I mean, part of what I think about is I can see the argument where it’s well, but folks still want connection. They still want that one on one. And that is true. You will always have people who are looking for these kind of like older school ways of connecting.

[00:27:07] Like I bought a record player. I like listening to it. It gives me a sense of the passage of time. I get up and change a record. That’s a very conscious choice that I’m making. But I think that you are right that generally speaking, the way that folks access information has really changed. How trustworthy we think those sources are has also changed.

[00:27:23] Like I remember, you know, remember when the internet started and you shouldn’t put your name online because, you know, somebody will come and snatch you from a schoolyard. Like it’s changed a lot in terms of just how much credibility these spaces have. And as you say, if we aren’t actually actively stepping in and claiming some of that space, there’s lots of tech bros from California who want to come take your job.

[00:27:42] They have no problem with that. They will come take your job and they will hire somebody for 30 bucks an hour to service your clients for a very poor wage, but flexible working conditions. Like they will Uberify therapy until the end of time. And there’s more and more of those companies all the time, right?

[00:27:58] So if we are not actively claiming space, and claiming our expertise, and also owning like no, I’m not going to make 45 an hour, like I’m going to make a really good wage, and I’m actually going to make a scalable wage, and I’m going to reach lots of folks even beyond one on one, then that is at this point that is us like pushing back against the tide, and it’s also us just like claiming that power. Because if we don’t like, it’s true,

[00:28:22] there are all these like tech solutions, quote unquote, that are going to be… we’re going to be competing with them.

[00:28:31] Stephanie: Yeah, and I mean, so we’ve talked about like, that’s sort of a negative lens on it, right? We share… I shared my worry because I really am worried, but we also talked about the opportunity, right? We talked about the opportunity in online learning, the opportunity in health and wellness as an industry, and you have to find your road.

[00:28:47] You have to find your why. You have to find where you want to sit. In this industry and how you want to help people. And it honestly can be anything. I think in this episode, Linzy, we are talking specifically to those of you who are curious about online programs. You are curious about getting louder in your community, about having a voice online.

[00:29:05] Maybe you’re seeing some of the things I’ve brought up, like, yeah, I want to claim a part of this space online and help people. And if that’s you, then you can be aware of the trends and then focus on the opportunity, focus on the people out there who are looking, who want to watch videos, who want to listen to audio, who want to learn that way.

[00:29:30] They may still be in one to ones, but I really early on when I launched online programs in like 2013, 2014, I learned that there are some people that can have the condition I help them with that will get results from a book..

[00:29:46] Stephanie: All they want is a 30 book and they healed their IBS. All they want is a 500 eight week course and they’re good.

[00:29:55] You know, I have learned that there… For the last decade, there are so many people out there that are actually looking, I want to say for like less of a solution than in person, you know, weekly, you know, sessions for a year or six months. There are a whole bunch of other people out there who are like, this is bothering me.

[00:30:16] Is there another way? How can I solve this problem? And I want to see the experts, like those of you were talking to now, claim a part of that market, claim your voice and go out there and help those people. Because you can, and you can right now. And they’re looking for what you said, real people, real connections, you know, real support.

[00:30:36] And there’s just some really cool ways that you can do that online learning.

[00:30:40] Linzy: Absolutely. And I mean, as you say that, it’s interesting. It brings up this thought that I haven’t entirely had before, but I do think with mental health therapists, especially, and also other health practitioners that listen to this podcast who tend to be more of the like sensitive emotionally attuned.

[00:30:54] We walk into a room. It’s full of information. You know, like we’re always picking up on everything. I think for those folks, it can be hard to think that what they do can be packaged up. And also I think sometimes, it’s like we want to be part of it, right? Like I noticed this with my own course, right?

[00:31:10] With Money Skills for Therapists, I will have students who join and they show up to every call, and I know them, and I get to be part of the journey, and I get to cheer them on, and I get to see the lows and the highs and They’re taking the course, but I also feel like I’m like, kind of like cheerleading them on, like I’m part of the journey.

[00:31:22] And then I’ll have other students who take the course, and they all get a one on one with me, and they’ll show up to the one on one. I’ve never met them before. And they’re just like, this course has changed my life. Thank you so much. And they’ll just list off all these results that they got.

[00:31:34] And it’s through my content, you know, like that guided them, but they didn’t need all that other stuff. And they didn’t need me. And the part of me, and I think a lot of folks listening, they’ll have this part too, that wants to be in it, wants to be the fixer, wants to be like integrally involved…

[00:31:51] That part is sometimes Oh, okay. Oh, but then I have to remember no, they got the result, but I didn’t need to put in all that one on one energy. Right. And so that’s also something that I’ve noticed. And I felt it in myself. I’ve had to sometimes almost grieve. Yeah, I’m not going to be part of all my students’ journey, intimately, but they still got exactly what they came for.

[00:32:10] And I think that might be a bit revelatory for folks who are listening, who’ve only ever done one on one.

[00:32:14] Stephanie: Yeah, it’s such a beautiful share, and it makes me think of my own stories. And for those of you listening, like that’s sort of why I say, once you get on the other side of running programs, it’s completely different. self published a book.

[00:32:25] There was no book in the world on the low FODMAP diet and IBS, which is what I did like way back in the day. So I published the first one on FODMAPs and IBS specifically. Anyways, I published this book. Because I wanted to help people. I made 1 per book. It was not a moneymaker. Okay. We’ll talk about that another day, but I wanted more people to hear what I was helping them with because I was early in a time when no one… So many people were struggling with IBS, and no one was teaching anything.

[00:32:54] There wasn’t what we have today, and so I was desperate to help more people. And from doing that book, and I also ran a really low price point membership that was about 20 a month, and we put over 300 people into that membership. So a very low price point. People go through the courses. I did have Q and A’s and stuff like that But it was in those smaller price point self study style of products that, like you said, Linzy, I had… I remember having a man whose wife emailed me and was like, you know, read your book, his IBS is gone or changed or whatever. And I was like, cool. It cost you 40 bucks, but you put effort in and you print the book and I was like, wow those kinds of I mean, it’s just you said revolutionary. It’s just, it’s incredibly powerful that you have this thing that you see every day in your practice.

[00:33:45] You’re changing lives one to one there. imagine the number of people that you could share that with who would never come into your office. They would never come to one one to one appointment. But they would buy your book, or they would buy your $20 membership, or they would buy your $200 course. And three weeks later… For me, I help people with diarrhea and constipation and gas and bloating, which is really ruining their lives.

[00:34:11] Okay. They couldn’t go out, they couldn’t go to the gym, they couldn’t travel. It felt like extremely life changing, satisfying work. So when someone buys a course for 500 and three weeks later, they’re like, I haven’t pooped my pants all day, or whatever. They’re like, cool. Oh my, I’m not bloated and I can wear normal pants, not stretchy pants.

[00:34:28] And I didn’t ever talk to them, but I took the information and the knowledge out of my brain and my heart and my soul. And I made some videos, and a workbook, and put it on the internet. That just lights my world up. And now I’m not a dietician anymore. But now our work, we continue to do the same sort of thing with our work.

[00:34:48] And I feel like you, Linzy, like I love people, and I want everyone on my Q and A calls. They all don’t come on my Q and A calls, but we sell courses where you can just take our training and not get any help. And we also help and do consulting as well. But to see a course that I have fine tuned since 2015, and someone to buy it for 900 or 1, 000, or however much they buy a course for.

[00:35:11] And then, we get a message from someone that says, I have scaled back my practice by one to two days a week, meaning they cut out one to two days a week of client care. And now they work, you know, two to three days a week and they have more time for their kids and their family. My mind is blown every single time.

[00:35:29] And that’s really hard to conceptualize or feel tangible when you’re just listening to this podcast, and you’re like, sounds cool.Like how do I do it? But that’s the truth from two people who care about human beings, who come from the healthcare world… we’re not these like business gurus who make trillions, you know, but it’s so fun to help people and it is a little bit different in a different way, but oh, it’s just so exciting anytime you get someone results and imagine you could do that without having to trade all your time, you know, and it’s totally possible and so exciting and fun.

[00:36:06] Linzy: Mhm. It is. It is. And I’m curious, Steph, as you’re working… because you work with a range of health practitioners, as I do, although I attract more mental health folks, since that’s my background, and you started on the dietetics side of things, I’m curious, with mental health therapist specifically and also this like type of… there’s a health practitioners who I work with who are like, they’re like the more sensitive, holistic OTs, right?

[00:36:28] Or like the SLPs who aren’t quite as orderly and see things in more of a systems perspective… For this kind of mental health therapist type of person. What do you see is challenging for them around what we’re talking about? what specifically do you see come up for them that make this a little bit harder?

[00:36:47] Stephanie: I just saw this quote, I think yesterday, which you have probably seen a thousand times. Have you ever read that sentence? It’s: entrepreneurship is like the deepest self development work ever.

[00:36:58] Linzy: I haven’t seen that.

[00:37:00] Stephanie: Really? Are you serious? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So like owning a business, becoming an entrepreneur, is the deepest self development work because you look

[00:37:09] your fears in the face. And so I think just entrepreneurship is, it brings up all kinds of things for mental health professionals themselves. And of course this overlaps with all kinds of beautiful people, but I see a couple of struggles. One of them is like

[00:37:29] some of their like shit comes up, you know from the dark depths of what you believe about yourself What you think about yourself? I don’t want to say imposter syndrome, but self doubt, you know. Who am I to have a course? Who am I to make money without talking to someone? You know I don’t experience what they go through but I’ve seen a handful of clients sort of go through a journey that they struggle to actually do the thing, even though they have a six month wait list.

[00:37:59] They are flipping brilliant. I can sit down with them in two hours and map out their entire course and cry. I cry sometimes when I map out courses with people, so I do a service where I sit down and I map courses out with people. It takes me about two to three hours. I swear to God every time I do it with a therapist, I cry because I’m like, Oh my God, your work is effing life changing.

[00:38:24] Oh my gosh. Like I can’t even handle… I’m sensitive. Like I can’t even handle it. and so as someone who’s the voice of your voice, who wants your voice to be louder, who wants to help you to do that, it is a struggle for me to see those courses, to cry in them. And then it can be a challenge to get them out.

[00:38:43] And what I experienced is that it’s your own shit that comes up and it’s sort of like a self doubt, who am I kind of thing. That’s the thing. And I want to say that although maybe our therapists experience that a little differently, I’m sure most humans, if not all of us go through that journey of Oh my gosh, you know, and it’s the decision to be a voice for your community.

[00:39:07] It’s a decision to help more people that you move past that, or you don’t. And people do not. And so that’s one of the things. Get a therapist. Probably a great idea.

[00:39:18] Linzy: A good idea. Yeah.

[00:39:20] Stephanie: Yeah. We should partner with some therapists to support our clients. But you know, that kind of stuff comes up and you kind of look, have to look in the mirror at yourself, which is… Some people push through it, and some people don’t.

[00:39:34] So I think that’s really the challenging part. It’s this entrepreneurship thing of having a louder voice, being online. Making videos of your face. And it’s just… I keep calling it like it’s raising your voice. It’s taking your brilliant expertise… You’re literally… You could tell me you’re already changing lives, and you could map out your program in two and a half hours with me. I know you could. But it’s taking that, and then putting that belief behind it, that commitment behind it, that I’m going to do it behind it. Like that’s the part that I think a lot of people struggle with. I think my mental health professionals struggle with it.

[00:40:10] And those that launch might take a little longer than they thought. Instead of launching in three months, it might take them a little longer. And if you can be patient with yourself, and work through that and still launch, you can still do it.

[00:40:24] Linzy: Like it makes me think about who tends to become a therapist, you know, and usually we’ve had some sort of adverse experiences, you know, and I think also that helper type, too, when we’re so used to being like, well, I just help others. I sit in a room and I give myself away all day until I’m a husk.

[00:40:39] And then I go home and then I know it’s been a good day because I’ve emptied out my human life. Like I’m obviously being extremely hyperbolic, but when we’re so used to being self sacrificing, then yeah, that idea of switching it around and being like, I am going to share my gifts and have an impact, but not at great cost to myself.

[00:40:55] That’s a real mindset shift for folks to believe that we deserve that. 

[00:40:59] Linzy: We have to believe that it’s possible, that change can happen without self sacrifice and pain, right? And we have to own our gifts. We’re actually really good at this thing. It’s not just something that, you know… I was talking to a colleague of mine the other day, who’s quite self-effacing, in a funny way.

[00:41:15] But she was saying to me, she was sitting with a client and the client had this breakthrough and was like, wow, you’re really good. She’s like, no, no, it’s not me. It’s you. It’s all you. And it’s like, that’s not true. If that person was sitting in a room by themself, this would not be happening, which is why they’re sitting with you.

[00:41:28] Right. But I think we’re so good at focusing on other people’s gifts and that we can be self-effacing. We can forget, we’re actually really good at this thing. And also, as we’ve been talking about, this thing can actually be bottled up, and folks can get tons of value from it without you having to have an individual,

[00:41:45] you know, specific interaction with somebody. Custom conversation six hours a day every single day. There are ways to get that across without one on one.

[00:41:55] Stephanie: And there may be an attachment… I’m not a therapist, but there may be an attachment to the fact that you have a magical power where you sit down with someone and in 50 minutes, you create the advice, the recommendation, the guidance, the exercise, the thing like it’s all you, it is you. But there may be an attachment to the control of that and the power of that moment.

[00:42:21] And when you take out your brilliance and you put it into a book, a course, a program, a written document, you are now separating that power out from the power of the information. There may be something there that is holding people back. Because just listening to the way that you described that, put me in a room, I’m good.

[00:42:41] I can do that. That’s my power. This may be shifting something there for you, and it’s challenging, But I would say it’s more powerful because over time you do repeat yourself. You do have a toolbox of like 20 things that you say to people, and when you can sort of pull that out and map that out, it actually frees you from

[00:43:05] needing it to be on you. When I serve people with IBS, they… I just described diarrhea, constipation five times a day, losing friends, not being able to leave their house. Like it’s impacting their lives, right? A lot of them have therapists. So yeah, many of you know this client. And so, one of the things I found in the community in running a program, or running a membership, is that they talk to each other.

[00:43:27] They asked each other for help. They talked about stretchy pants together, and that was the first time that it removed the burden from my shoulders because I was the only one that believed them, that they trusted, that they could talk to, and in creating programs, I found that freeing because I found the burden really heavy.

[00:43:48] You know, Linzy, I only saw, I’d say eight to 10 clients a week. I couldn’t do more than 10. That was my energetic, emotional maximum. Not therapy, digestive health. But that was my, my… And I’m an extrovert, but that was my capacity. And so, I mean, I felt like I had to do, take my expertise and make it bigger, you know, maybe that’s what pushed me.

[00:44:12] But, you know, this sort of idea of, it’s all on your shoulders. When you take it off your shoulders, and you put it in a program, video content, community, whatever, those kinds of pieces, all of a sudden you are not a hundred percent responsible for the healing of that person. Whoo! It can screw with you, but it’s magical.

[00:44:37] And so I think it’s a big barrier there to work through.

[00:44:39] Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah. Cause what I’m thinking about when you said like the taking off your shoulders, it’s like you’re taking off like the burden responsibility, but you’re also letting go of some of that control. Right. And this is a conversation I had a coaching episode for the podcast that I recorded last week with one of my students who’s in this process of, she has an expanded offering, this very cool planner for folks who are neurodivergent.

[00:44:59] And we were talking about that, like the word attuned, you know, when we’re in therapy, like it’s attunement, but it’s also control, right? Like you’re also really able to modulate that interaction and go faster, go slower, change gears, check in. There’s a lot of control there, right? And when we do bottle something up, we do lose some of that control

[00:45:16] in exchange for more reach, right? And like folks being able to do it in their own time, in their own way. And there’s, I think, a very positive trade off there, but we are letting go of that piece of it’s me, I’m driving. It’s you’re not driving anymore when you package up that goodness and you let other folks work through it at their pace, in their way, accessing your support as they want to, which they might access a lot of your support in a hybrid program or they might not.

[00:45:41] Right. And that’s… it’s no longer like yours to solve.

[00:45:45] Stephanie: Oh, it’s so powerful. I’m personally energetically vibrating right now. So if you’re listening to this podcast at a different time than we’re recording, and you are energetically vibrating because we’ve cracked some stuff open, and that energy in your body is saying I want to let go of that control.

[00:46:01] I see this in me. It might not be easy or it might… I mean, honestly, for some people it is easy. They just kind of do it, and get it out there, rip off the bandaid. then this is for you. If you’re someone who’s not, that’s okay. But I know that there are people listening to this that are probably vibrating like I am where you’re like, Oh my gosh.

[00:46:18] Yes, I’m ready to let go of some of that control. I’m ready to take some of it off my shoulders. I want to see less people. That’s what I went through early on when I launched programs. I was like, I can only hold space for so many people, you know, and I know I can help more people. That was really my motivation in the beginning, you know?

[00:46:36] Linzy: So Steph, for those folks who are listening, where can they find you? Where can they follow you? How can they get more from you to step more into this direction?

[00:46:45] Stephanie: Yeah. Okay. So I’ll give you a couple of resources. All right. So one, I have a podcast, too. So if you’re a podcast listener and you want to listen to me a little bit more and see if I’m your vibe, then you can look up my podcast and all the podcast places. It’s called The Leveraged Practice podcast.

[00:46:58] Okay. So that’s number one, number two, you can find me on the Instagram, which is the leveraged practice again, at the leverage practice. And if you find me on Instagram, and send us a message with the word models will send you our models training, which is what I started to talk about today, which is the different models of online programs.

[00:47:12] That’s kind of like a great start. It’s just a short little video on that. We also have free classes and courses and workshops and all kinds of stuff like that. And no matter when you’re listening to this, If you go to leverageyourpractice.com, that URL will take you to our next free course, whether it’s live or recorded or whatever it is, but it’ll give you a little more in depth of okay, let me take these ideas in my brain and start to, you know, map out my program.

[00:47:40] So those would be a couple of great places for you to, again, gently learn more, you know, go to my podcast, just listen in for a bit, or take a step. You know, do one of those two trainings that I told you about. And we’d be happy to just sort of guide you towards this idea, and I can tell you that a lot of people are successful.

[00:47:59] Okay. We talked about a lot of the blocks and whatnot. One of my therapists just launched her first program. She put five people in the first one. I just followed up with her. She launched the second time. She’s got two in so far working on filling up that program. Like It’s working every day with the people that we work with, and we are so happy to help, you know, with our free resources, our paid programs.

[00:48:21] We do a lot of technical work as well to help take that off your plate, but, yeah, just start to explore and think about it a little bit more if it feels good to you.

[00:48:28] Linzy: Awesome. Thank you so much, Steph, for coming back on the podcast.

[00:48:32] Stephanie: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for being here and listening in.

[00:48:51] Linzy: This piece at the end of my conversation with Steph about control and attunement. Very excited about this territory and these ideas, because I do think that for so many health practitioners and therapists, this is how we’re used to relating to our work. And if you can start to think about your own relationship to your work, what needs of your own are being met by the way that you work, or how is your identity affecting the way that you’re doing this work, then we can start to ask ourselves questions about how we want to change that.

[00:49:22] If we want to change that, right? There are so many ways to help folks in the world, and we’re used to doing it a certain way. And that might be the way for you. That might be the only way that you ever want to help the folks that you help. But if you are curious about building something different, having a different impact, having a bigger impact.

[00:49:39] As Steph says too, like bottling things up, that’s my language, not hers, but you know, creating a book or like a $200 course, that self-study course that’s going to change somebody’s life without you having to actively do that work with them. But they’re still going to get all the knowledge and goodness that you’ve gained.

[00:49:54] If you are curious about that, I definitely recommend checking out Steph, check out her content, And start to think about, yeah. What is the relationship to the work that you have now? What are you getting from it? Where are you maybe boxing yourself in or limiting yourself? Where you may be costing yourself more energy than you need to?

[00:50:10] And how can you continue to support the folks that you love to serve in a way that is sustainable for you and maybe even make a bigger impact than you are making now. There’s just so many ways to be helpful to folks in the world. So, so appreciate my conversation with Steph today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at money, nuts and bolts.

[00:50:31] And I would sincerely appreciate it if you would tell folks about the podcast, tell your colleagues, tell your officemate next door, tell your friend that you did your master’s with, tell them about the podcast. We’re having conversations here that I don’t really think are happening in a lot of other spaces.

[00:50:47] And the more folks that hear about the podcast, the more that we can keep it going and start to create more and more change around the way that therapists talk and think about money. I did an event recently called, Overcoming Money Shame. It was a workshop series. And at the end, one of the participants sent me a note thanking me for being, how did she put it?

[00:51:05] At the forefront of the Therapist Financial Competency Movement. And I am all for it. If I’m ever going to lead a movement, it is going to be about financial competency. That’s so responsible and boring, but also amazing. So yes, if you share with other folks, then more and more of us can be part of these conversations and can be building these skills.

[00:51:26] Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today.