00:00:00 – Maegan Megginson 

This is a crazy thing to say, but I’m gonna throw it out there. Being in this role has given me more compassion for like, the 1950s husbands than I ever had. It’s like, oh, say more. Yeah, it’s a different, it is a different felt experience to hold in your body the pressure to make sure that your family’s mortgage is paid right and to have that experience of like, that you’re holding. I feel as a breadwinner that I am holding in my body most of the time the energy and the emotional capacity that is needed for me to produce the money that we need to survive. 

00:00:38 – Linzy Bonham 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is the one and only Maegan Megginson, one of my biz besties. And today Maegan and I dig into the topic of being the breadwinner, specifically being the breadwinner as a female identified person, you know, in a hetero relationship, which is our own experiences. But I share in this podcast and the reason I wanted Maegan to talk about this topic on the podcast with me is I see so many therapists in Money Skills for Therapists, my six month course for therapists in solo practice. So many therapists in that course are female breadwinners or are in queer relationship and the breadwinner in their family. And Maegan and I today talk about our own experiences with being breadwinners. She shares about the negotiations that her and her partner have done over the years to make their relationship situation work in terms of her breadwinning, him being in charge of the household. We talk about my relationship and how it looks different or similar to hers and how to have a healthy relationship when the gender dynamics are not your traditional gender dynamics. But we also talk about unhealthy breadwinning when one partner is really actually carrying the relationship and there is not balance there. And the difference between these things kind of authentic breadwinning and Kind of being left carrying all the things. Here is my conversation with Maegan Megginson. Maegan, welcome back to the podcast. 

00:02:47 – Maegan Megginson 

Linz. I’m so happy to be here. 

00:02:50 – Linzy Bonham 

I’m so happy to have you here. I will say to folks listening, Maegan and I just had to have a little pep talk beforehand that we are going to keep this within a certain time frame because we’re not very good at that. 

00:03:00 – Maegan Megginson 

I’m going to be so well behaved, it’s going to blow your mind. 

00:03:04 – Linzy Bonham 

Okay, so, Maegan, I want to dig in with you today on the topic of female breadwinners. It’s a topic you and I know well. Hi. 

00:03:15 – Maegan Megginson 

Love it. 

00:03:17 – Linzy Bonham 

So I see this as a trend in the folks that I serve in Money Skills for Therapists. Many of my students who identify as female also find themselves in a breadwinner role, which I’m going to say is not probably statistically the norm in general society, that the female partner of a hetero couple is the breadwinner. But I see it a lot. You and I also both know this role well. I wanted to start by asking you to talk a little bit about your own experiences with being the breadwinner in your marriage. 

00:03:53 – Maegan Megginson 

Okay, watch this. I’m going to be so succinct. Here we go. Okay. I love this question. So I definitely did not start out as the breadwinner and my relationship with Jonathan, just to be clear. In fact, it was like, to call, like, the great bait and switch, because when we got together, he was an oil and gas engineer. He drove a BMW. You know, I was like, I could totally be into this lifestyle. Absolutely. I had this, like, teeny, tiny private practice that didn’t need to be prolific in order to provide for our lives. So there was, like, very little stress. And then we reached this point in our life together where we realized kind of simultaneously that he didn’t want to do what he was doing anymore. And I actually felt very, like, under fulfilled in what I was doing. So we started this, like, great gender role renegotiation in our lives where I had to really step into the truth that I carried more of that masculine, doer, ambitious energy in my body than he did. And that actually I wanted to be the one who was sort of leading the charge and creating a business and generating financial wealth for our family. And he really felt more called to be in the caretaker role, to be. We call him the house manager now years and years later. So we started that transition and it was really funny. Like, as we were going through that transition in our marriage, I was growing my therapy business here in Portland. So this was like, 2017, 2018, back when you and I first met, actually. And as often happens when you are a healer in a healing profession, like, the clients that come to you are just mirror images of yourself. So I started calling in all of these couples who shared this dynamic where these. In these. In the cis hetero relationships to be clear, like, that the woman was more ambitious and driven and often the primary breadwinner or, like, the sole breadwinner or the primary breadwinner. And the husbands were these, like, slightly softer personalities. Right. People who were kind of more aligned with caregiving roles. So since then, my world, I feel like I am just surrounded by women who are breadwinners. And like you said, I wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t match the actual, like, statistical bell curve of the larger population. But it is the world in which I live, and I have over the years, there’s been a lot of resistance along the way, for sure. But at this point in my journey, I feel so comfortable most of the time being in. In this position. 

00:06:50 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And it has been a journey for you over time. And I know that it’s something that you two really had to work on together as well to figure out what that new version of your relationship looked like. And the bait and switch makes me laugh a little bit. I was thinking about there’s an Ali Wong comedy special, and I can’t remember what it’s called, but her whole premise in the comedy special is that she’s telling the story of meeting her husband and how he was this Yale graduate, and he was gonna make all this money, and she was gonna be kind of like a kept woman. And then by the end of the narrative, it’s, like, reversed, and she’s the one who’s, like, gotten a great TV contract, and she’s making all the money, and he’s not making anything. And she was like, you tricked me kind of thing. Totally. It’s interesting, too, because when I think about the start of my relationship now, marriage, it was the same way. Not as pronounced, probably, but certainly when Rodrigo and I got together, he was working full time in the municipality civil service position, making, like, steady good money. I was still working in agency work, getting paid pittance and, like, a pat on the head for doing the work that I was doing. So when we got together, our ratio of income, which of course I did the math, was about 60% of our household income was from him, and, like, 40 was from me. So we used to split all our bills, 60, 40 on this very complicated spreadsheet, which did not live for very long because it was so ridiculous. But that was like how we started. But as you were talking, it’s interesting because I was reflecting on how I think actually part of me moving into that breadwinner role was marrying somebody who really saw my potential and supported me to kind of grow into this bigger version of myself and has, like, let me take kind of take the wheel in a way of my own life. But also he now works for me, right. And lets me, like, be his boss in this particular capacity as well as other part time work that he does. So I almost feel like we did a little bit of a dance in terms of me actually starting to take up the space that before, I think I wasn’t really claiming, you know, when we first met, I was still starting to acknowledge that, like, maybe I could actually make things happen in this world. And maybe I was not destined to make $45,000 a year working in domestic violence for the rest of my life. 

00:09:10 – Maegan Megginson 

I love that Rodrigo’s such an awesome dude. Jonathan is such an awesome dude. So it really helps to have an awesome dude. Maybe we can say that if that’s your orientation. I feel really similarly that Jonathan has always been my biggest cheerleader. 

00:09:27 – Maegan Megginson 

For me, it was more about, which I think is similar to what you’re saying. Giving myself permission to let myself be the primary breadwinner, right? To let myself be the one who had more ambition. That was not what was modeled for me growing up in my family of origin or in my community. So I didn’t have a lot of models for what it looked like for a female identified person to be the, quote, more powerful partner in the relationship. 

00:09:57 – Maegan Megginson 

The person who kind of carries more of that, like, creation energy. And it did take this, this really intentional renegotiation, both and renegotiation inside of myself around, like, am I going to own that I have this ambition and this potential and this desire to create and to create specifically through a business? Am I going to give myself permission to make more money than my partner? All of that internal renegotiation and then, yeah, the ongoing renegotiation between us of do we feel like this is working? Is our relationship balanced in a way that feels equitable and sustainable for us long term? Does that land for you that bit about, like, how do we create? I think that’s a huge question. And it’s a question that I really learned so much about doing couples therapy with so many couples in this dynamic, which is like, how do we make this reciprocal? How do we make sure that we’re both feeling the labor that we’re putting into this relationship is mutually beneficial? I’m sure we’ll be doing that negotiation for the rest of our lives, but it has become part. Because I. Let me just name this. Personally, I’m curious about it for you two. I. I think my internalized patriarchy can often manifest as feeling resentful for doing more than my partner, even though that’s, like, literally not true. This is a crazy thing to say, but I’m gonna throw it out there. Being in this role has given me more compassion for, like, the 1950s husbands than I ever had before I was in this position, which I know there’s a lot to unpack there, but it’s like, oh, say more. 

00:11:43 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah, it’s a different. It is a different felt experience to hold in your body the pressure to make sure that your family’s mortgage is paid right, and to have that experience of, like, that you’re holding. I feel as the breadwinner that I am holding in my body most of the time, the energy and the emotional capacity that is needed for me to produce the money that we need to survive in this world. 

00:12:11 – Maegan Megginson 

And when the money is flowing, it’s no problem, Man, I feel great, you know, Like, Jonathan could just do nothing, and I would still be, like, so happy and fine. And to be clear, Jonathan both supports me at home. So he is, like, the home manager, right? He is the one doing the laundry and planning the meals and taking our dogs to the vets, and he’s also doing all of the finances of our businesses behind the scenes and some of, like, the HR duties. 

00:12:37 – Maegan Megginson 

So he is like, your partner, supporting the businesses and supporting the home simultaneously. But for me, when the money is flowing in more slowly, like, when the pressure to produce really intensifies, I can notice in myself, like, I start feeling resentful that I feel like I’m carrying more burden than he is, and I have to really catch myself in that and, like, recognize that, like. Hold on a second. This. This resentment isn’t actually about Jonathan and this dynamic that we very clearly negotiated together in our lives. 

00:13:13 – Maegan Megginson 

That’s not what it’s about. This resentment is my body’s way of telling me I need to ask for more support because I’m, like, drowning under the pressure of being the financial provider in this moment. I think that’s where it gets stickiest for me. Being the breadwinner. 

00:13:31 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. When the money’s not flowing, being the breadwinner gets a little more stressful. 

00:13:35 – Maegan Megginson 

It gets a little more stressful. Yeah. 

00:13:36 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And I’m thinking about that for myself too, because, like, it’s a quiet time in the economy. Let’s say things are not booming in the way that they were in our space that you and I occupy. Professionally, money is not flowing as freely as it was a few years ago, and I really feel that. And, yeah, like, sometimes I will notice myself coping with humor. Surprise, surprise, in making statements of, you know, kind of like, and I think this is maybe 1950s working husband of kind of like, I pay for all of this. This is all because of me. That kind of, like, defensive energy where you’re like, oh, it’s fine. I just. Literally every piece of Lego in this house is because of my work. Which actually is not true, to be clear, because Rodrigo does have a job that brings in probably, like, 25 to 30% from a different income source. 

00:14:23 – Maegan Megginson 

Right. But also, it’s just not true. Like, so I. So Jonathan is not generating money. And those moments when I feel that way towards him, it’s also not true because I couldn’t do what I’m doing right now without the support that he’s giving me. And that’s where the 1950s thing comes back into my mind, right? Where I’m both developing more compassion for the grumpy, demanding husband who comes home from work. In his mind, he sees his wife lollygagging around the house, and he feels resentment towards that. And he’s like, wait a minute, I just worked my ass off all day. Like, make me dinner. Like, it’s. He was trying to say, I need to feel the reciprocity. I need to feel like, where are we supporting each other? And on my more resentful days, I can look at Jonathan and be like, wow, must be nice. You just had this, like, super spacious day, and I’m freaking stressed out and feeling, like, the burden of being the financial producer or it can come out sideways sometimes. Like, what you’re saying being like, well, who do you think paid for all of this? And I’m just like, oh, my God, I’ve turned into the house husband who’s like, make me a cocktail woman. But because I am also a woman, and we’ve had the experience of being on both sides of this dynamic, I can also see and appreciate that, like, wait a minute. The labor that he’s contributing to our family, to our relationship is so valuable, and I wouldn’t be able to realize my potential as an ambitious person. Like you were saying. Like that we have these partners who are both cheerleading us and encouraging us to lean into our creative potential. And they are taking care of us in the invisible labor ways that actually allow us to have the energy and bandwidth to do the work that we’re doing. And that’s not money. Like, they’re not putting money in the bank doing that. But he’s putting fuel inside of me so that I can then put more money in the bank. I try to remind myself, like, it’s a whole ecosystem and how are we both contributing to that ecosystem? I do bristle when I hear female breadwinners going into that space. Right. Being like, oh, well, like, I pay for every Lego in this house. It’s like, I do it too. We all fall into it. It just feels to me like, ooh, we’re in pain in those moments. Like, we’re struggling and we’re doing a really bad job asking for the connection and support that we need to move through this challenging moment. 

00:16:50 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. And as I think about our two situations as two. Two illustrations of female breadwinning in a hetero relationship, there are some differences between our different situations. Right. So you and Jonathan are in a more extreme, like, the money comes through you. He does do some support in your business though. 

00:17:07 – Maegan Megginson 

Correct. 

00:17:08 – Linzy Bonham 

But yeah, Rodrigo works for me and my business. Halftime. He works as a politician. Halftime. So he’s actually not as much in a supporting role as Jonathan is. 

00:17:19 – Maegan Megginson 

Oh, okay. It’s kind of like. 

00:17:21 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. So it’s like we are both working at home. Right. So it’s like we’re both actually working full time functionally. And also he works a lot of evenings because his job, his second job, demands that he’s at these incredibly long council meetings late into the night. We finish a day of work and then he goes off to another meeting. Thankfully, with his ADD superpowers, he can do that and just like work a 16 hour day and just be like, no, that was a good day. 

00:17:46 – Maegan Megginson 

Honestly, I think he’s a robot. 

00:17:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Is that your theory? That’s my theory. But then I have that man do everything he does. That’s the only plausible explanation. But then I have to, like, solo parent, right? So then I’m like solo parenting into the evening. And I think that we’ve kind of silently contracted that we’re just going to kind of sometimes let our house fall apart around us, and that’s fine. And when I say house falls apart around me, it’s not that bad. But we have deprioritized certain things. There’s just Certain things that aren’t going to happen because we’re both in a full time working role and I’m holding more of the financial responsibility for our household. And we have a kiddo who he’s just always there every day. He’s just so weird. I know. Take a kid, get out of here. So I do find Rodrigo and I kind of take turns being more in that almost like domestically supportive role of being like, oh, hey, I made you a sandwich or like bring you a drink or whatever. But sometimes both of us are just like head down doing work. It’s just that the work that I’m doing has a much larger financial impact for our house. And something that he’s expressed to me many times is like, he’ll say something to the effect of like, I’m so glad that like you can make money so I can just like engage in my hobby. Because being a part time politicking is his hobby. Yeah, right. It pays so little for the like, magnitude of responsibility and like the hate mail that he has to contend with. And like we got like hate on Reddit and had to get security cameras because people think that like politicians are fat cats. I’m like, I wish. Yeah, truly, for the amount of headache you get. So it’s like he does this very hard, very demanding work, but it doesn’t financially compensate him. But it’s very much his vocation, it’s his passion. Right. And so we kind of have this contract between us that thankfully my passion allows us to pay our bills. He will continue to engage in that passion being a city councilor for as long as he possibly can, till retirement if he can. But he will never be well compensated for that work. So there’s still a lot of work going out from him into the world, not into our household. But the compensation doesn’t come back. The reward he gets financially is definitely not commiserate with the work. 

00:19:49 – Maegan Megginson 

I have two questions for you, please. Well, one’s a reflection and one’s a question. The reflection is really appreciate the way you support his air quotes hobby. Because I feel like it is so easy for primary breadwinners, regardless of gender identification, to project judgment onto the partner who’s doing something that doesn’t earn money. And that’s just a byproduct of living in late stage capitalism. We have internalized that we should value the money producing activities more than the things that don’t make money. And I really appreciate anytime you see someone modeling, I so deeply value what my partner does with their time, even if it doesn’t put money in the bank. And like Jonathan is, he’s a philosopher. He is constantly reading philosophy, studying philosophy. And he’s a very unlike Rodrigo who goes out into the world. Jonathan is a very solitary person. But what he does is like, he is able to bring to me and to my life and to my work so much richness and thoughts and ideas. And when I am puzzling out really big systemic questions, questions and philosophical questions in my work, he’s able to add so much richness and nuance to that work and to my just lived experience in the world. And I value so much what he does with his time. But I see all the time, I see people, primary breadwinners, who really don’t value or respect the things that their partners are doing with their time. And I think that is just a really sticky spot. And no good comes when you don’t respect what the other people in your household care about and do with their time. So that’s a very long winded. Oh, I’m not meeting the brief. Supposed to be brief. The brief is to be brief. That’s cute. I love how you support Rodrigo and how you really champion him. And my question is, do you guys negotiate the household labor? Do you have explicit conversations about what you’re each gonna carry or you really just let it flow organically? 

00:22:02 – Linzy Bonham 

We let it flow. And that’s an interesting thing about us as a couple is I think that we both just. If we see something that needs to be done, we do it. So there are certain places where we naturally kind of divide. Like he. He pays more attention to the laundry. So he does laundry more. But I do laundry sometimes. But he’s just more attuned. When the laundry hamper’s full, he’ll throw it in. Dishes, he tends to do more. Cause he stays up very late at night watching movies. Cause he needs almost no sleep. Your robot feed ro might hold some water, but he doesn’t always. Like last night, he stayed up late and he didn’t do dishes. He was, you know, playing a video game instead. So later, probably after a recording, when I go to make my lunch, I’ll do some dishes at that time. So we’re both very project oriented people. Where we see a project, we do the project. So far, I think it works fairly well in that we both have fairly equal energy that we contribute to the household. And each of us just kinds of spots. A problem solves the problem. Spots a problem solves the problem. But I will also say we have brought in external help. So we have a cleaner who comes twice a month. Right. And like, every time she comes, we’re like, we’re in love with her. This is amazing. Right. So she certainly is kind of keeping our home at a much nicer level of cleanliness than we would achieve on our own. And also we have a family member who folds our laundry every week, which there’s like multiple layers in that relationship and the decision to have that happen. But that also takes a couple of the big domestic tasks off of both of our plates, which allows us to have more time to do the things that we really love to do, which is not actually cleaning and folding laundry. 

00:23:29 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. And it reminds me, I mean, it’s been a while since I lived this life, but back when we were both employed and we had two incomes coming in, yeah, we had someone coming in to clean our house every week. We had someone coming to walk the dogs. We don’t need that now. But I do feel like it was so necessary at the time for us to be able to stay connected and sort of in flow with each other in our relationship. But I know many people can’t afford that. And I also know that a lot of people just deeply resist it, Paying for support in these, like, domestic ways. Especially when the breadwinner is carrying the belief that the partner who’s making less money, like, well, you’re making less money, so you should be doing more of this. You should be cleaning the house more. 

00:24:18 – Linzy Bonham 

It’s. 

00:24:19 – Maegan Megginson 

It’s just like there’s so like you’re saying there’s so many layers and it gets. It can get so sticky. But I love the way that you and Rodrigo are able to sort of organically negotiate day to day. We’re not like, Jonathan and I aren’t like that. So we, in our friendship, we laugh that you’re doers, you’re project people. Jonathan and I, we’re not project people. Like, I. I have to stop pretending like we’re project people. We’re sit and have big thought people with a cup of tea, you know, like, I could spend hours just sitting right here staring out the window. There’s like so many things that need to be done and I’m like, I’m just going to sit here and have my thoughts, and that’s what’s happening today. And we’re both like that. So, like, we have to. We have to have really clear negotiation with each other about, okay, dude, here. So we’re dealing. We’re dealing with huge house issue right now. My basement, our basement flooded last month. And to finished basement. My. My office was downstairs. 

00:25:19 – Linzy Bonham 

Just. 

00:25:19 – Maegan Megginson 

It’s a disaster. It’s a very expensive disaster. And the doer in me wanted to, like, jump in and, like, be in control of getting it fixed. But I could not do that and continue being the breadwinner because, hey, here’s a moment where resentment can really show up. As the breadwinner, we’re like, all of a sudden, we’re going to need tens of thousands of dollars to fix this thing. That it happened totally unexpectedly. And I’m carrying, as the business owner, as the breadwinner, like, I am carrying the responsibility for bringing in that money. And I figured out really quickly I was. I cannot hold the responsibility for making this extra money that we need and be, like, the project manager. Because I’m just trauma responding to the situation and taking action and being controlling. At the same time. I really have to intentionally hand this over to my partner and very intentionally step back because I was getting activated into taking action, which is my. It’s my trauma stuff. So that’s just been, like. It’s a very recent example of where he and I have to sit down. And we do have to very clearly say, okay, while we’re in this chaotic season in our home, are you going to be doing the dishes? Are you doing the laundry? Can I expect that my clothes are going to be clean on this day? And, like, how can I support you in, like, project managing this thing? And so just as an example, like, we do have to get really specific about that or things will fall through the cracks while we’re sitting and having our big thoughts. And that’s something where we’ll probably always be learning how to do together. Because it doesn’t come naturally to us. 

00:26:58 – Linzy Bonham 

No, no. You. You’ve had to develop a system and a process to manage those things actively. Because. Yeah. When you’re describing sitting, having big thoughts, like, I think about when I sit on the front porch sometimes I’ll, like, sit and look at the birds and, like, na, na, na. And then I’ll, like, look and be like, I really need to paint that thing. Oh, the door’s not done. And suddenly I’m, like, doing a project. 

00:27:17 – Maegan Megginson 

Love that for you. 

00:27:17 – Linzy Bonham 

And it’s not that I completely cannot relax. Cause in other circumstances, it’s, like, relaxing for you. It is. 

00:27:24 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. 

00:27:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Like, I do have, like, a generative part of me that just looks to be creating. So, yeah. It is funny because I’m thinking about, you know, how long you and I could, like, sit in that same circumstance and not get up and do something, you would beat me big time before I’m up and moving. 

00:27:39 – Maegan Megginson 

And I think this is the most important part of the breadwinner conversation. I think when we’re thinking in terms of our families, it’s like really, how do we create space in our families and our primary relationships to be so radically honest about who we are at our core? Who is the essence of who I am? Because the more honest I can be with myself and with my partner and the more honest he can be with me about who he is, the easier it becomes for us to navigate our relationship and to like co create a life together where we both get to be supported and doing what feels really right and aligned while also making sure that we’re like dotting our I’s and crossing our t’s and making sure life happens. I think that’s been the biggest lesson for me in becoming the breadwinner in our family is like it’s all about me owning who I am and letting him own who he is and celebrating both of those things. 

00:28:39 – Linzy Bonham 

And I think what you and I have been talking about are maybe I think you and I are like authentically breadwinners. We’re just the term. A couple of my group practice course students have used recently described me as boss bitches. You and I are the boss bitches. And we have that energy in us, right? And my mom too. I remember my mom saying once that she read Men are from Mars, women are from Venus and she was like, I think it might be a man. Because like my parents dynamic too. Despite my dad also having a career, my mom is the more driven, focused, like output oriented one of the two of them. But I’m also thinking about therapists that I’ve known and worked with in money skills for therapists or money skills group practice owners over the years where it might not be so much of like an authentic arrangement. And so this is where I’m thinking and I want to play a little bit with the idea of when is breadwinning actually like over functioning and like carrying a household in an arrangement that’s not actually sustainable or authentic or like good for both partners. Because I’m thinking about therapists I’ve known over the years where like they’re the one who has like a full time private practice, but they’re still very much the primary parent who’s also going to like run the kid to soccer practice and take them to the doctor and do all these things. And they’re also the one holding down the household. So they’re functioning at, like, a 9, and they have a partner who functions at, like, a 3 who’s maybe, like, has addiction issues or depression or just seems like he just can’t get his start in life. Or sometimes she can’t get their start in life, because I’ve seen this, too, in queer relationship. What are your thoughts on that? Is that a different scenario? Or is it that the breadwinner needs to, like, accept the things that they’re gross? Tell me how you would, like, distinguish. 

00:30:14 – Maegan Megginson 

How do you say that? 

00:30:15 – Linzy Bonham 

I’m just saying, because earlier you were saying, like, you know, it’s kind of like our work to do as breadwinners, to, like, recognize. Recognize the contributions of our partner. But I’m like, yeah, yeah, but can we always assume that they are actually contributing at an equitable level? 

00:30:26 – Maegan Megginson 

Right. Thanks for. Yeah, thanks for weaving that in lens. It’s like, I think it’s two very different conversations. What you and I are talking about is a fully consensual agreement that we have made intentionally with our partners. So even if you and Rodrigo haven’t, you don’t negotiate who does the dishes. You have negotiated that. You are creating the business and he is doing the politicking, and the money’s going to come from the business, and he supports you in realizing your vision and. And putting gas in your ambition and cheering you on. And, like, that is an explicit negotiation. And I think when two people have explicitly negotiated, here’s who’s going to make the money, and here’s what the other person’s going to be doing. That’s healthy, right? That’s strong. That’s solid. That is fortunately, the position that you and I are in. And then there’s this totally other scenario that you’re describing, which I saw all the time in my couples therapy practice, which is, yeah, this over functioning. I don’t even. I’m not even hesitant to call it over functioning because often it’s just surviving in those dynamics. Right? It’s just like, okay, so there’s one partner who is really struggling or not contributing in any way. They’re not contributing financially. They’re not contributing labor, they’re not contributing childcare. They’re not contributing household management. They’re not contributing sexually, they’re not contributing energetically. Like, they’re just not contributing for whatever reason. And then the other partner is often like, I don’t have any choice. One of us has to take care of the kids. Right? One of us has to make money. I guess it will be me. So I would call that a non consensual division of labor because you have not actually consented intentionally with each other to this being the scenario. So, I mean, the short answer is get yourself into couples therapy. This is so systemically complicated, it is not helpful at all for you, as the person who is currently the breadwinner, to continue, like holding this mantle of it’s all on me. Well, then what can you do to really make it clear that it is not sustainable, that you are not consenting to it all being on you? This now is a relationship problem, not a breadwinner contribution problem. Yeah. 

00:32:51 – Linzy Bonham 

And it makes me think about folks I’ve known over the years who have like gotten separated and made statements, something to the effect of, it’s actually easier for me to solo parent my children because now I have like one less child to take care of. 

00:33:02 – Maegan Megginson 

Totally. 

00:33:03 – Linzy Bonham 

I’ve heard so many people say that in different language, but like the relief that comes when you have been that, call it over functioning, call it surviving. Like that person who’s having to do everything to at least be able to do it just on your own terms now and not also negotiating with somebody who’s basically running interference. Yeah. And that’s a distinctly different situation. 

00:33:23 – Maegan Megginson 

So different. 

00:33:24 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. 

00:33:25 – Maegan Megginson 

But I do think that, like, if you’re listening to this and you’re. And you feel like you’re in that category, you do still have the space, you can create the space inside of yourself to do a little exploration if the relationship felt equitable. Am I naturally a person who carries ambition and creativity in my body in this way? Because I also, I’ve seen like situations where that person divorces, gets into another relationship, and it’s like it becomes clear when they’re in a healthier system in their life, it becomes clear if they do have that bone in their body and they did want to be the breadwinner and now they get to do it in a healthier way. Or it becomes clear that they’re like, yeah, actually, that’s not my role. And I did it because we needed to survive. But now that I don’t have to do it anymore, I’m going to choose to show up in my life and in my family in a very different way. I think that’s always really interesting to witness. 

00:34:21 – Linzy Bonham 

Yeah. Because it could be an adaptive role that you take on because you’re like, well, somebody has to do everything, so that’s going to be who I am. And it’s interesting as you say that, because I think about relationships that I’ve been In the past, I’m thinking about one specific longer term relationship that I was in where I probably still would have turned out to be the same person. You know, I still would be a very ambitious, driven person who’s doing a lot, but that person wasn’t able to function kind of like even a day to day level sometimes. So it’s like I would still probably be kind of doing my thing, but the relationship would look extremely different if I was kind of having to carry somebody. As you say, like financially, energetically, like domestically, sexually. Like, if I’m having to try to make everything in our relationship work right, that would have been a very, very different lived experience than the relationship that I’m in now, even though I’m. I’m the same person. 

00:35:07 – Maegan Megginson 

Oh, that’s so true, Linz. And I can think of times in my relationship with Jonathan where the balance has gotten off between us, especially in the early days when we were really first negotiating this transition, that if I had to really learn what needs relationally, I needed him to prioritize for me to keep my bucket full. And for me, I really need acknowledgement. I need a lot of acknowledgement. It’s like one of my love languages, if you will, from him. Like, I need acknowledgement that I had a long work day, that I’m seeing a lot of clients right now, that I’m carrying a lot of financial pressure. I need that verbal affirmation that I see what you’re carrying and I appreciate it. And when he can pair that with trying to anticipate my needs, in some ways, when he’s like, here’s a sandwich. And I didn’t even realize it was lunchtime. 

00:36:01 – Linzy Bonham 

He always brings you sandwiches. I’m so jealous. 

00:36:03 – Maegan Megginson 

I love sandwiches. Yeah, it’s great. It, like, it really, it. It makes me feel just when he’s showing up for me in those ways, and those are things I’ve had to figure out. To be clear, there are things I’ve had to explicitly ask for when he shows up. I carry almost no resentment that I’m the one who’s like, quote, doing the work to make the money. I can do it. I can do. I can move through the hard seasons. I can go through the pressure if I feel like my partner is supporting me in the way I need to be supported. Yeah. So I think I just wanted to name that, that you need different things from Rodrigo than I need from Jonathan. But part of this process of learning to hold this ambition in a way that also feels relationally really healthy and balanced is for us to take individual responsibility for getting clear on what it is we need from our partner. I don’t need you to make the money, but I do need you to do X, Y and Z so that I feel like there’s a beautiful reciprocity in our relationship. And I know that and you know that because we’ve had times in other relationships or this relationship where that reciprocity hasn’t been there in the right ratio. And then all of a sudden you’re like, I can do this, but I don’t want to do this. 

00:37:19 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. 

00:37:19 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. It’s nuance. 

00:37:20 – Linzy Bonham 

Resentment is always a clue, right? I think resentment is always a clue that something is out of balance and. 

00:37:25 – Maegan Megginson 

That I pay for all these Legos. Yeah, that’s your red flag. I pay for these red flags. I’m mad at you, like, stomping around your house and it’s like, okay, what’s out of balance here? What’s out of balance? 

00:37:39 – Linzy Bonham 

Yes. And let’s begin stomping around, stepping on Legos that are everywhere. Just. That’s also part of the picture. 

00:37:45 – Maegan Megginson 

Right? 

00:37:46 – Linzy Bonham 

Maegan, this has been really fun. Thank you for coming to explore breadwinning with me. This is something. I feel like we should have talked about this topic years ago because it’s always been a shared experience we have. And I just see it so much in therapists who come into money skills for therapists. And again, it’s like, am I calling these folks in? Probably, maybe. But also, I do think that it’s probably quite common in the therapist helper, healer space. 

00:38:09 – Maegan Megginson 

I think so. 

00:38:10 – Linzy Bonham 

Because we tend to be high functioning people who just, you know, want to take care of all the things. 

00:38:13 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah. Yeah. And good for us. It’s really fun. Like, when you get that balance right and you feel supported in the right ways. Having the agency and the autonomy and the power to create businesses and lives that we want is so. It’s such a gift. It’s such a gift to. To be in this position. So I’m really excited for more people who are in this space to find you and to find money skills and to strengthen those money muscles so that we can feel even more empowered and being women in the world who are doing really incredible work through our businesses. 

00:38:48 – Linzy Bonham 

Amen to that. Maegan Megginson. For folks who are listening and they want to get further into your world and why would they not? Pretty awesome find you. 

00:38:58 – Maegan Megginson 

Yeah, well, you can. Since you’re already listening to a podcast, pop over to the deeply rested podcast and pick an episode, Give it a listen see what you think. If you like it, listen to some more, Join the newsletter. Truly do whatever you want. You can also just visit my website@deeply rested.com Beautiful. 

00:39:20 – Linzy Bonham 

Thank you Maegan. 

00:39:21 – Maegan Megginson 

Thanks Linzy. 

00:39:26 – Linzy Bonham 

One piece that really sticks out out for me in this conversation with Maegan is that there is a big difference between the kind of situations that Maegan and I are in where we are just authentically motivated, ambitious humans who kind of would be no matter what, no matter what circumstances, and that kind of situation where you have negotiated with your partner or you’ve both fallen into comfortable natural roles around woman. Being a breadwinner in a hetero relationship is very different than situations that I’ve seen so many therapists in over the years, in many skills for therapists where they are the breadwinner not by choice and would not choose to be that way and are also carrying other aspects of the family. 

00:40:11 – Linzy Bonham 

So there’s a big difference between those negotiated, balanced relationships where there’s communication around money and tasks and how contributions to the relationship are valued. Big difference between that kind of situation and the situation where one partner is really just carrying the family in every possible sense. And for folks who are in that latter kind of situation, it really helps to name and notice that that is what is happening for you. Obviously there’s going to be so much there in terms of complexity of digging into that with your partner, with the people around you, you seeing how that situation can be improved. And I’ve seen folks in that situation for all sorts of reasons, whether a partner has, you know, mental health issues, addictions issues, has lost a job and just has struggled to find something else, but hasn’t necessarily stepped up in other ways within the family. 

00:41:01 – Linzy Bonham 

But I think like so many things, having clear communication in your partnership around contributions and how money is one kind of contribution to a relationship, but all the other labor and all the other tasks that both partners do are also contributions to the relationship. And making sure that you’re both feeling appreciated and that it’s balanced is important. And then also if it’s not a tenable situation for you having those conversations on what needs to change and what needs to improve, and not letting yourself stay in a situation that is absolutely, absolutely sucking you dry forever and ever more so lots to this topic. 

00:41:39 – Linzy Bonham 

So appreciate Maegan coming in and talking about it today. And I will say that becoming the breadwinner is one of the common themes I tend to see amongst students in Money Skills for Therapists. There’s several themes I’ve observed over the last few years of folks who tend to come into the course. And being the main breadwinner in the family is one of those themes. I think one of the reasons, of course, is that when you become the maid breadwinner in your family, especially if you weren’t before, suddenly you need to learn skills. 

00:42:08 – Linzy Bonham 

And sometimes that’s you’re the breadwinner in a partnership, sometimes it’s that you have become the solo earner in your household because of separation or the loss of a spouse and suddenly it’s all on you. And I know for me that was part of my impetus to learn skills when I had to become the breadwinner. That’s when I actually had to learn how to really make money work. And I see that being the case for so many other folks. 

00:42:27 – Linzy Bonham 

So just know that their skills are learnable. You can figure out how to do this and I so appreciate you joining Maegan and I for this conversation today. I am Linzy Bonham, therapist turned Money Coach and I’m the creator of many skills for therapists. If you are ready to get my support in going from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, then my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place for you to start. 

00:42:49 – Linzy Bonham 

You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances really working for you. Register today using the link in the show Notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you. Thanks so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned Money Coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you’re ready to go from money confusion and shame to feeling clear and empowered, my Free On Demand Masterclass is the best place to start. You’ll learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances finally working for you. Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting you.