Linzy Bonham [00:00:00]:
I mean, the first phrase that comes to mind for me, Kim, hearing about where you’re at is new level, new devil.
Kim Torrence [00:00:04]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:00:05]:
Have you heard that phrase before? No. No. So new level, new devil. It’s like you did all this work. You got off insurance panels, you’ve set a fee, your practice is full enough that now you have creativity and bandwidth to think about something additional. And now here’s a new set of challenges that have come up, and they are kind of the same challenges as before. But as you say, this is the 2.0. Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm clarity and confidence with their finances.
Linzy Bonham [00:00:41]:
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, check out my free on demand masterclass. You’ll find the link in the show notes or@moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. It’s the best first step to finally feeling empowered with money in your private practice. Let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Kim Torrence.
Linzy Bonham [00:01:14]:
Kim is a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists from a few years back. She’s also a trauma therapist who specializes in burnout prevention and perfectionism recovery. And today, Kim and I dig into the challenges she’s having about pricing group offers. So this is about pricing an offer within your therapy practice. So still practicing as a therapist, but going from one to many. And we dig into some of the mindset barriers that are coming up for her as she’s thinking about this pricing. We talk about the current political climate and how hard it feels to set pricing when people are having a really hard time and lots of scary things are going on. We do talk about the idea today also of New level, New Devil.
Linzy Bonham [00:01:58]:
You know, sometimes we overcome something at a certain level and then we go to do a new thing and new challenges come up. And sometimes our old challenges come up in new ways. Here is my conversation with Kim Torrence. So, Kim, welcome to the podcast.
Kim Torrence [00:02:20]:
Hi, Linzy. Great to be with you.
Linzy Bonham [00:02:22]:
Yes, I’m very excited to be with you again. We were just kind of trying to figure out how long it’s been since we’ve actually had a conversation. It feels like three years, but we have no actual data to support that roundabouts about that, about that. So, Kim what would be helpful for us to focus on today during our time together?
Kim Torrence [00:02:43]:
Well, first, I just want to thank you so much for this opportunity to be with you and have this conversation. I feel like I’m having the 2.0 version of our time three years ago where I’m in private practice. I’m out of network, which took me a lot to a lot of work to get off insurance. I had a lot come up around that. And I feel like I’m having a new iteration of those mindset things as I’m moving towards offering groups. There’s a lot of creative ideas that I have, like different support groups. It feels like really needed for this time. And I’m having some discomfort and tension coming up around the fee because just folding into the mix, the context of the times that we’re living in America right now is experiencing the autocratic coup.
Kim Torrence [00:03:33]:
Federal workers have been fired, people are. There’s a lot of job insecurity, climate crisis. So I’m just holding those things in mind and really wanting to be accessible. So even in my first offerings, they’ve been free or donation based. And now so I’m doing like these self care, somatic self care sessions for therapists. Yeah. And it’s, it’s a lot of fun and it’s, it’s fun to put together just all the things that I have found helpful. But I’m charging let’s say like $20 an hour, which feels okay because it’s a lunchtime thing.
Kim Torrence [00:04:06]:
It’s not really, it’s not really something I’m trying to. I’m just having fun with it, to be honest. But I am working towards. There’s a big offering coming up where I’m folding in Somatic experiencing IFS and ssp, the safe and sound protocol and. Yeah. And it just feels uncomfortable for me for some reason to put a fee of like $65, you know, per person or. But the thing also I want to say is that I, I want to offer a small group. Like, I really don’t want to have a lot of people.
Kim Torrence [00:04:35]:
So then when I look at the numbers. Yes. It ends up. Yeah. Kind of being, Being a factor.
Linzy Bonham [00:04:41]:
Yeah, of course, of course. The math. There’s some math there. And if it’s a group of a hundred people, the fee could look different than a group of six. So I mean, the first phrase that comes to mind for me, Kim, hearing about where you’re at is new level, new devil.
Kim Torrence [00:04:53]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:04:53]:
Have you heard that phrase before? No. No. So new level, new devil. It’s like, you know, we’ve. You did all this work, you got off insurance panels, you know, you’ve set a fee, your practice is full enough that now you have creativity and bandwidth to think about something additional. And now here’s a new set of challenges that have come up, and they are kind of the same challenges as before. But as you say, this is the 2.0. It’s the 2.0 version.
Linzy Bonham [00:05:17]:
Now you’re thinking about expanded offers and that the concerns about pricing and accessibility. And I’m hearing your attunement to this time and all the things that are happening is making you really pause on setting pricing. Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:05:32]:
And another thing, I just. If I can add one more piece to it, just the cognitive dissonance, like this strange experience of business as usual. But the. But the building’s on fire.
Linzy Bonham [00:05:42]:
Okay. Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:05:43]:
In terms of just, like, what’s going down in this country right now.
Linzy Bonham [00:05:47]:
Yes.
Kim Torrence [00:05:47]:
So, yeah. So, like, with this sense of urgency. Because I do believe that empathy is the. Is the cure. Like, empathy is the antidote to everything. And that’s exactly why Elon Musk says empathy is the woke virus.
Linzy Bonham [00:06:00]:
Right.
Kim Torrence [00:06:00]:
You know?
Linzy Bonham [00:06:01]:
Yes, yes.
Kim Torrence [00:06:02]:
So, you know, I think that there’s. There’s, like, a real need, and people are on their phones, and, like, there’s so much isolation. There’s, like, the loneliness pandemic. So that’s just adding to the, like, sense of, you know, I really want to help. I want to show up, and I want to answer to this moment. So it feels weird to, like, also raise my feet, which I haven’t done since I last worked with you and Tiffany McClain. And no shade at all. To anyone who, like, I don’t mean to say that in a way, to anyone who does have a higher fee than mine.
Kim Torrence [00:06:33]:
I’m not trying. Or people who are raising their fees. It’s no shade to them. I’m just saying for me, in me, it feels weird to be like, you know what? I’m gonna raise my fee right now.
Linzy Bonham [00:06:41]:
Okay. Yeah. Cause. And is that your individual fee that you’re thinking about that you’re not going to raise right now? Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:06:46]:
And I just haven’t raised it in a while. In addition to all this, it’s like, I could probably, should probably raise my fee, which is 225.
Linzy Bonham [00:06:54]:
Okay. So, you know, I’m hearing more of kind of those context pieces. It’s like, people are lonely. We need more empathy. Shit’s kind of on fire. And yet we still have to, like, do stuff. And it actually Makes me think about war times. If you look at how people adapt to living in, like, literal war, where it’s like, yeah, the bakery might get bombed, but I need to go get bread, so I’m still going to, like, get up and live my life.
Linzy Bonham [00:07:17]:
That’s a much more extreme version of what we have to do during times of, like, political instability or other kinds of crises. Like, Covid was kind of the same. I remember a lot of memes during COVID of, like, the world’s on fire, like, time to go to work. I don’t know. Like, yeah, like, you know, this kind of idea of business as usual while everything’s burning down around you. And, you know, this certainly feels like one of those moments, again with the political climate, but something I will also reflect to you as you’re describing what you’re offering. And the climate is like, what you’re offering right now is more valuable and impactful than ever. Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:07:53]:
In terms of, you know, your ability to meet this moment and kind of be like, an antidote to what people are suffering from. I’m hearing there’s immense value in what you’re offering. Do you feel that?
Kim Torrence [00:08:04]:
Well, first, thank you for saying that. And yes, I mean, I do. I. It’s like, it feels so valuable. Like, what we’re all doing, not just me, but, like, what therapists have to offer feels so incredibly valuable that there’s, like, no price. Like, it’s so needed. And I don’t mean that in a, like, save the world mentality type of way. It just.
Kim Torrence [00:08:23]:
It just feels like that there isn’t men suffering. So. Yeah, it does. It feels really valuable. But, like, I just struggle, too, with, like, just being like, we’re in this web, you know, this web of capitalism. I think that’s a part of it for me, too, is like, looking at someone like, how someone like Donald Trump has become so powerful. You know, it’s like this is the system that enables that. So, like, being in it just feels weird and yucky.
Linzy Bonham [00:08:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, you know, this is something that I see all of us who tend to be more kind of empathetic and also idealistic. Like, we see the world as we want it to be, as it could be. You know, like, how do we breathe this air and exist within this system and still find ways to live our values and be well?
Kim Torrence [00:09:08]:
Yeah. I feel kind of like some emotion bubbling up as you say that.
Linzy Bonham [00:09:11]:
Yeah, yeah. What emotions? Yeah. Good, you came. Came prepared. Yeah. What is that that you’re noticing?
Kim Torrence [00:09:20]:
Just like, immense caring.
Linzy Bonham [00:09:22]:
Yes.
Kim Torrence [00:09:23]:
Yeah. And there’s, like, a lot of helplessness, too. Yeah. Seeing what’s happening with ice and people being hurt and, like, the. Just the profound suffering. Yeah. And just. I think that’s part of it is like, wanting to do something in response to that, even if it’s just so small.
Linzy Bonham [00:09:41]:
Okay, so these groups that you’re looking, that you have been offering, they’re for therapists specifically.
Kim Torrence [00:09:49]:
Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:09:49]:
Okay. And I’m hearing you’ve been doing them, like, over lunchtime, which I also hear is a way, just by the way, of you dismissing their value. Okay. You’re like, they’re over lunchtime. I mean, I should be paying them for coming to see me during their lunchtime.
Kim Torrence [00:10:02]:
Yeah. I mean, it’s. Because it’s. We end up dancing, you know, like, I kind of titrate it. We start with, like, we do, like, grounding, and then we end up. Because I really do believe that play and fun is important and necessary. Sorry, I didn’t mean to talk to you, though.
Linzy Bonham [00:10:16]:
No, no, no. But yeah, I did just want to reflect that. I feel like that’s part of a story as to why this would not be something valuable. That little comment that.
Kim Torrence [00:10:23]:
You totally get that. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. That’s true.
Linzy Bonham [00:10:26]:
So as we think about pricing, because, like, we need to ground, too, in what you need to be well and how to make this sustainable. Because I’m hearing this, like, immense well of giving that you. You have. Right. That you want to give. We know that none of us can give infinitely and none of us can pour from an empty cup. Right. And so I want to ground a little bit as we’re thinking about this pricing.
Linzy Bonham [00:10:51]:
And I’m hearing there’s this current offer. There’s also a bigger offer brewing inside of you of what you need to be solid and well so you can keep doing this great work in the world. Right. So if we think about financials, let’s. Let’s be with numbers a little bit. I’m hearing you’ve been charging, you said $20 an hour. $20 for the workshop.
Kim Torrence [00:11:11]:
For the workshop, yeah. And then I was offering them free up until June, I think. Okay. Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:11:18]:
So you have been doing this for free, which is always a weird thing, too, I will say, when we’ve been doing something for free, to then assign monetary value to it.
Kim Torrence [00:11:24]:
Very weird.
Linzy Bonham [00:11:25]:
It’s very weird. Yeah. Because it’s kind of like. And this is, I think, like a general problem that therapists, we have in general, is, like, often we’ve been doing this kind of emotional caretaking work for decades and then we become therapists and suddenly we’re supposed to charge for it and actually charge well. So, you know, I think that this is a common barrier that we face at multiple levels. But you’ve been doing these workshops for free and you don’t want to keep doing them for free, I assume.
Kim Torrence [00:11:48]:
Correct.
Linzy Bonham [00:11:48]:
Tell me why you don’t want to keep doing them for free.
Kim Torrence [00:11:50]:
Well, I do feel that it’s a lot of work. I mean, just in terms of putting it on your schedule, taking that time, putting a lot of. I put a lot of thought into things.
Linzy Bonham [00:12:00]:
Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:12:00]:
And then just like there is a part of me that wants to feel there’s a value to what you know, there is that wanting that the value to be assigned. Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:12:10]:
Like you’re putting value out.
Kim Torrence [00:12:12]:
Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:12:12]:
And you’re not getting direct compensation back.
Kim Torrence [00:12:16]:
Correct. Yeah, I think I started to feel that and that’s what made me move into like, you know what, let’s. It’s time to put a value and start charging. But I think the thinking was like, therapists don’t. Well, in general, either they have their own thing, their own way of self care, or it’s really hard to get them to. I even remember back when I worked in community mental health how hard it was for me to get people to go eat lunch away from their computer. Or I would do these like salsa. Lunch break.
Kim Torrence [00:12:43]:
Like lunch breaks.
Linzy Bonham [00:12:44]:
Oh, fun.
Kim Torrence [00:12:45]:
And like the only people that would come would be the support staff. None of therapist, like one therapist would come because everyone was too busy. So I guess, I guess I think like I was setting it the price based on incentivizing, trying, really trying to get people to, to participate in self care.
Linzy Bonham [00:13:01]:
Yeah. And I was that person too at the agency who was like, I’m having lunch now. Anybody want to come? Like I’ll be in the lunchroom trying to make it sound like it’s like some rager party. Yeah. Because we do know that caregivers and therapists tend to get overly absorbed in what they’re doing. They don’t stop to take a 10 minute break even though it’ll do good things for them. And I’m going to actually say, Kim, that those folks are not the target audience of what you’re doing. Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:13:24]:
So the person who is not yet at a place where they can make themselves stop and take a break and where they’ve identified that not only do they need to do something good for themselves, but they’ve decided they’re going to do it. That person, I would say, is actually back in like a pre contemplation stage and like you’re not going to be able to entice them out even for no money.
Kim Torrence [00:13:44]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:13:45]:
Price is not the barrier for them.
Kim Torrence [00:13:47]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:13:48]:
Those barriers are internal, emotional. That’s not actually the problem that you’re able to solve for them. And no amount of pricing is going to change that. Right. Hanging out with you in the lunchroom was free. People still didn’t do it.
Kim Torrence [00:14:00]:
Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:14:00]:
Same here. And we’re awesome. Right. So. So that’s the first thing I want to reflect back to you is the, the people who already have bought in to the idea of like, yes, it is worth my time to stop and take care of myself and be with myself. Price is not going to actually be the thing that free or not free or $20 or $50 is, I don’t think gonna make much of a difference to them.
Kim Torrence [00:14:26]:
Okay, good point.
Linzy Bonham [00:14:28]:
Right. Because they’re already ready to receive the value you have to offer. And again, there’s going to be all this work that they might have had to do to get there that you can’t do for them.
Kim Torrence [00:14:36]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:14:37]:
Right. So we’re going to exclude those folks who you can’t get from their desks. They are no longer the people you’re thinking about as you’re creating this offer.
Kim Torrence [00:14:44]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:14:44]:
Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:14:44]:
Thank you.
Linzy Bonham [00:14:45]:
Tell me about your ideal folks who receive this offer for you. Who are they? Who’s your ideal client here?
Kim Torrence [00:14:50]:
Deep feeling, deep thinking individuals, whether therapists or. I am really enjoying working with therapists just because I, I feel a lot of compassion and camaraderie and totally. I mean, obviously I’m a therapist, so I understand some of the struggles. So deep feeling, deep thinking people who care about the world and want to show up and, and make it a better place or just that want. You know what it is, is it’s about authenticity. I mean, I really enjoy working with people who have childhood trauma, specifically come from family of origin dynamics where there was narcissism or other antagonistic relationship styles. And they are trying to be the, they want to be their full selves in their work and their relationships. And for therapists even like being able to face their fears.
Kim Torrence [00:15:39]:
I mean, kind of sounds like 80 right now, but to, to just really be their full self without fear. And yeah, that’s my ideal person. Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:15:49]:
And is that for these therapy workshops specifically? Is this like your therapist audience that you’re considering or would this be.
Kim Torrence [00:15:56]:
So for the big offer, the 10. So it’s a 10 week small group. That one I feel like, which is combining se, IFS and ssp. That one, I feel like I want to have that offer and then adapt it to therapists and adapt it to, to non therapists.
Linzy Bonham [00:16:17]:
Okay, so this could be for a couple different audiences.
Kim Torrence [00:16:19]:
Yes.
Linzy Bonham [00:16:20]:
Yeah. Modifying it. Okay, so that’s your big offer. Let’s start with your little offer. Because I feel like your little offer could be a good place for us to test out and think about pricing before you get into the bigger one. Your little offer, it has been for therapists, correct? Yes. Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:16:34]:
I’ve been calling it Somatic Self care.
Linzy Bonham [00:16:36]:
Okay. Okay. And those folks who come, I’m curious, those therapists, are they private practice folks? Are they in agencies? Who are they?
Kim Torrence [00:16:45]:
Private practice.
Linzy Bonham [00:16:46]:
Okay. Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:16:47]:
Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:16:47]:
So they’re private practice folks. They’re coming to you. What are they getting from that one hour with you? What are they taking away with them?
Kim Torrence [00:16:54]:
What I’m getting back is that it feels really good to move because there’s a lot of movement in it. One person said it really was helping them not panic because they’re really, really feeling the, the ice kidnappings. So what they’re really getting out of it is the, the connecting and the moving. Because we start, like I said, we start out with just some grounding stuff and we move towards more like joyful dancing movement, like mindful movement, AKA dancing in this context, in this group. Yeah. Like so someone told me it felt liberatory.
Linzy Bonham [00:17:34]:
So them feeling liberatory. I’m going to focus in on the fact that these folks are therapists. Right. Because what you have Here is a B2B offer. It is a business to business offer.
Kim Torrence [00:17:45]:
Oh, okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:17:45]:
Yeah. Because they are showing up on their lunch break between sessions. They are taking care of themselves. Right. And because you’re specifically targeting therapists, they are folks who are in business. And them being less panicky, more grounded, joyful in themselves is going to have positive impacts in their private practice. So tell me, what are the positive impacts in their private practice of them attending these sessions with you?
Kim Torrence [00:18:12]:
Oh, well, I think that it’s supportive to holding space for clients. I’m saying that they’re not, they’re not saying that to me, but if you ask me that, that’s what comes up.
Linzy Bonham [00:18:23]:
Yes. Yeah. If they’re not panicking themselves, they’re going to be able to be more present in their clinical work. Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:18:28]:
Okay. Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:18:29]:
Because as you’re thinking about this offer, I’m thinking about pricing, but I’m also thinking about part of pricing is also being able to help your customers, your clients, understand the value to them. B2B is a great space in which to do business because folks are almost always more willing to invest in their business and their professional aspects of themselves than they are in themselves as individuals. Yeah, Right. Which is why you can see these coaches who charge like $50,000 a year for you to be able to chat with them. Because if you make big changes in your business, your business is a machine that helps you generate money. And you could actually see that 50,000 come back if you’re working with the right person and you do the right things.
Kim Torrence [00:19:09]:
Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:19:09]:
So you are helping them not just to be more grounded as humans and be happier and healthier, but you’re also helping them to be more sustainable in their practices and serve their clients better.
Kim Torrence [00:19:22]:
Yeah, thanks. I hadn’t thought about it that way. Yeah, I’m still at the agency trying to get people to take a lunch break.
Linzy Bonham [00:19:28]:
Yes. Yeah. You haven’t caught up to yourself. Right. Because, like, if we think about you, let’s think about you as your own client here. Is client the word you use? What is the word you’re thinking with these folks? I use the word students for folks who do msft. What is your language around these people?
Kim Torrence [00:19:42]:
I hadn’t even thought of participants.
Linzy Bonham [00:19:44]:
Participants. Yeah. So let’s think about you as your own participant, because you did note earlier that some of these folks may have traits and needs that are similar to your own. Surprise, surprise. So let’s think about you. You are a therapist who charges 220 an hour.
Kim Torrence [00:20:02]:
-
Linzy Bonham [00:20:02]:
- Sorry, my bad. 225 an hour. Right. So one hour of clinical work for you brings in 225 of revenue into your practice. Right. And if you think about yourself, if you have a support in your life that allows you to be more grounded and joyful and present with your clients, how much is that worth to you?
Kim Torrence [00:20:22]:
It’s priceless.
Linzy Bonham [00:20:23]:
Yeah. Right. Like, you need that so badly. Doing the work.
Kim Torrence [00:20:27]:
It’s everything.
Linzy Bonham [00:20:28]:
It’s everything. Right. So just to, like, put these two things side by side, this support, that is everything to the folks who need it, who are serving folks during this tumultuous, stressful time in history is worth everything. So to put it beside the pricing we’ve talked about so far, is it worth more than $0?
Kim Torrence [00:20:49]:
Yes.
Linzy Bonham [00:20:50]:
Okay. Is it worth more than $20?
Kim Torrence [00:20:52]:
Yes.
Linzy Bonham [00:20:53]:
Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:20:54]:
Feels really weird to say that, though. It just does.
Linzy Bonham [00:20:57]:
Yeah. Yeah, it’s worth more than $20, they’re still having a full experience even if they’re in a group. Right. The group does not detract from their experience. In fact, the group probably actually amplifies their experience because they’re having all those beautiful parts that come with a group. Right. Like universality and that, like co creation of energy and inspiration from other people who aren’t just you. So group is not less than individual.
Linzy Bonham [00:21:18]:
Group is different. And it gives us different things that we actually can’t offer our clients or participants as individuals. So we’re going to play with pricing a little bit because I want to think about your financial needs. Knowing now that this offer is priceless, something that allows clinicians to keep doing their work. How much is that worth to them over decades? Thousands and thousands and thousands. Right. You’re not going to charge them 100,000 for this offer even if it could maybe allow them to keep doing $100,000 more of work. Because you know, the market is not going to bear that if we want to use economic terms.
Linzy Bonham [00:21:50]:
Nobody’s going to have $100,000 to pay you for this, even if it’s worth that much. Let’s think about pricing. How many folks would be in one of these midday groups? How many participants?
Kim Torrence [00:22:02]:
I mean, right now with the summer, I feel like, you know, and also because I’ll be honest, I’ve procrastinate when it comes to marketing. So it’s like maybe I’m marketing it like two weeks before. So I’ve had, when it was free, I had a lot more people and it was right when everyone was getting fired, all the federal workers were getting fired. So at that time, maybe 18 people. But now the last month I had four.
Linzy Bonham [00:22:26]:
Okay, so you have four people attending that group. So we know your clinical fee is 225 an hour.
Kim Torrence [00:22:33]:
Yes.
Linzy Bonham [00:22:33]:
Right. We do not want you getting paid less than 225 for that hour of work. How do you think about that kind of work? Do you find it more demanding than one on one? Less demanding. Do you feel it’s equal just to anchor us to the other type of service you offer?
Kim Torrence [00:22:46]:
Yeah, no, I, I, I’m coming to really enjoy it. Like I love it. It’s very different because there’s the group, the magic of the group or the power of the group to be a bear witness or just hold space? Yeah, I enjoy it. And then of course, just people’s responses after we move or sometimes we’ll chant or sing, like doing vocalizations and stuff. So it feels amazing.
Linzy Bonham [00:23:12]:
So I’m hearing that for you, it’s actually feeling like pretty light work right now because it’s so positive, right?
Kim Torrence [00:23:20]:
Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:23:20]:
Which doesn’t mean it’s less valuable, by the way. Like, it doesn’t mean we should charge less for it. But I was curious if it was like something that felt like a much heavier lift for you than a one on one. And it doesn’t.
Kim Torrence [00:23:29]:
I think the word, what comes to mind is satisfying.
Linzy Bonham [00:23:33]:
Beautiful.
Kim Torrence [00:23:33]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:23:34]:
Okay. So just as a starting anchor point then, if I take your normal hourly fee for a one on one, I divide it by four people, it would be 56, 25 per person. What do you notice with that number?
Kim Torrence [00:23:48]:
Yeah, I do, I do notice kind of like a internal act.
Linzy Bonham [00:23:53]:
What is the act about? What’s the story that goes with the act?
Kim Torrence [00:23:56]:
Yeah, it has to do with like, are people going to pay that?
Linzy Bonham [00:23:59]:
It’s a good question. So you’ll put out that pricing. You know, this, this is the scenario. You put out the pricing. People don’t sign up. Then what?
Kim Torrence [00:24:08]:
A couple therapy sessions later, I probably, I mean, I’ll be taking that one straight to therapy for sure. Yeah, I think that what comes to mind. So I, I, I love ifs and I do that in my personal work. So I have the part of me that struggles with worthiness and then I have the part of me that’s like, this is about marketing. This is not about you. And also because I’ve had people say positive things. So.
Linzy Bonham [00:24:37]:
Yes.
Kim Torrence [00:24:38]:
And if it is crap, then you just work on your game. You know, there’s. So I have that part right there to say. It’s like, this is not personal. It’s about just being practical. So that’s there too, along with the actual, the act.
Linzy Bonham [00:24:52]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is the act from that worthiness part? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And it’s really helpful to notice that. Right. Because for those vulnerable parts of us, you know, that are usually young, vulnerable, I think those parts of us can get confused about what it means if you put out an offer and people don’t buy. Right. Those parts of us do get confused and think that it’s about us and go to a shame place and like it’s some sort of, like, what would the word be? It was some sort of clear judgment on our value.
Linzy Bonham [00:25:24]:
Right. Like here it is. I’ve been looking, I’ve been looking for evidence that I’m worthless and here it is. Right. Those parts of us, we all have variations of that.
Kim Torrence [00:25:33]:
Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:25:33]:
And they’re, they’re around, but I don’t think that’s actually what it means. I’m going to go a little bit more with your marketing part on this one. If you put it out for, you know, we, we would round it, let’s say that we make it $58 an hour. If you put it out for $58 an hour and your current people don’t sign up, what can you do?
Kim Torrence [00:25:54]:
I mean I have not been on my marketing game. That is the truth. So I would work more on helping people understand. Just showing what the value is in my marketing, whether in writing or, or I guess going on podcasts or whatever feels, feels right, but just so people get a sense of it. And I think also, okay, so there’s this like other part of me that’s like coming in saying. Because the thing about mindfulness is like everyone knows, like everyone, everyone can practice self care on their own. Right. But the whole value of this is that it’s together.
Linzy Bonham [00:26:31]:
Yes.
Kim Torrence [00:26:31]:
This is about community, it’s about co regulation, it’s about not being isolated.
Linzy Bonham [00:26:36]:
And I think also it’s about the container to actually do it. Yeah, right. A lot of times when we create offers, like a lot of what I see the value of what we can offer in money skills for therapists, for instance is like, this is the time. If you show up at this time, you will either get coaching and hear other people get coaching about money and you’ll be able to be part of that kind of experience or you’ll have the space to actually work on money. That container, all folks have to do then is showing up to the container and you help them get into that space. Right. Where we know that often left to our own devices, we don’t do the things that are good for us. Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:27:07]:
For a thousand reasons. So yeah, I think there’s a marketing piece here that hasn’t happened yet, but I’m already hearing pieces of what that marketing is going to be about. Of what is this experience? What do folks take away from it? What does it mean to their practice that they have this? What are some of the things that are going to be their objections that you can speak to in it? What are the things that usually get in the way of taking care of themselves that this offer solves for them? If you lay out all of those pieces and the price at the bottom of that page is $56, I’m gonna be like, fuck, I’ll take five. You know, like that’s a no brainer.
Kim Torrence [00:27:44]:
Yeah.
Linzy Bonham [00:27:45]:
What do you notice with me saying that?
Kim Torrence [00:27:47]:
Oh, totally. Like I just as you’re saying that it’s. I haven’t done any. My marketing has been posting in local Facebook therapist groups. That’s it. And like, it’s not been. I haven’t been doing any of what.
Linzy Bonham [00:28:00]:
You just described because when I think about it too, I think about it also as idea. So I’ve been reading a book called the Personal MBA because I know how to party. And in that book.
Kim Torrence [00:28:21]:
Oh, that was great.
Linzy Bonham [00:28:22]:
They. They talk about different, different things that can be sold. And that’s been really helpful for me to clarify even just what I sell. Like, what am I selling when I sell money skills therapists or money skills group practice owners. And there’s this idea of options. And I always thought options was just a thing in trading that I didn’t understand. And I was like, oh, I don’t do that one. I do ETFs.
Linzy Bonham [00:28:41]:
I’m going to stay over here. But options, when you sell an option, what you’re selling is the opportunity for somebody to do something that they may or may not take. So, for instance, like concert tickets are options. When I buy a ticket for a concert, I’m buying a spot at that concert. It’s mine. But if I don’t show up, it was still my spot that was saved.
Kim Torrence [00:29:00]:
Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:29:00]:
I bought the option to attend the concert. And if I use it or not, what I was purchasing was a spot there. So it does make me think about this. It’s like to me, what you’re describing is not something that would just be good for somebody once. It’s something that would be good for somebody every week or every two weeks or once a month, whatever frequency makes sense. And I think if you offered me, okay, for six months, you have the opportunity to come to these workshops, like on a weekly, bi weekly, monthly basis. This is the package for you to be able to come. It’s going to be a lower price than that one off price times however many offers.
Linzy Bonham [00:29:35]:
But I know that I have this anchor point and if I just put it in my schedule and if I show up, you are going to guide me in sinking into myself and doing these things that are good for me but are hard and I’m not going to do them by myself, that is immensely valuable. You are creating there the container and the energy for me to take care of myself in a way that I’m probably not going to be able to motivate myself all alone, sitting in my office with an inbox in front of me and a few phone calls to return.
Kim Torrence [00:30:01]:
Right? Yeah, that’s super helpful.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:03]:
Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:30:04]:
To think of it that way.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:05]:
Yeah. Part of it, too, is thinking about. Yeah. How do you. How do you position this to people in a way that helps them understand the value, that makes it easy for them to say yes. And you’re setting them up to succeed. You’re helping them understand. Almost like the appropriate clinical dosage.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:20]:
One therapy session. Not gonna do it. Weekly therapy. Better. Right. So I think about this too. It’s like, as people start to hear about your offer, I think it also makes sense that you do have an option that is like the larger commitment that is gonna help them do the thing that’s good for them, even when they’re busy and distracted.
Kim Torrence [00:30:37]:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know what? This is landing for me as like, oh, yeah, this is sales.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:45]:
It is sales.
Kim Torrence [00:30:46]:
This is sales.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:47]:
Surprise.
Kim Torrence [00:30:51]:
Oh, my gosh.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:52]:
Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:30:52]:
And I just don’t even have that. Those neurons, if they ever existed, are like fr. They’re not active.
Linzy Bonham [00:30:59]:
Yeah.
Kim Torrence [00:30:59]:
In my brain.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:00]:
Maybe they’re baby neurons. They need to be nurtured.
Kim Torrence [00:31:03]:
And there is such a thing as plasticity. So.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:05]:
Yes, A hundred percent. So. Yes. So I think here, my thinking is pricing. Do not price it less than you would get for a clinical hour. That’s your floor. I think 56 is like your floor. Right.
Kim Torrence [00:31:17]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:18]:
But spending some time yourself with really laying out the value. That’s your marketing materials have, like, a beautiful description. Help me understand what it means for me. Not just for me, but for my business. Speak to my objections, but also speak to the things that I know are true. Like, let’s be real, you’re not going to get to this on your own because you have on your plate. Let us help you connect with your deeper self, whatever it is. Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:42]:
Lay out that value and then that number at the bottom, I think is not going to be a shock to anybody who is nodding along with your copy.
Kim Torrence [00:31:51]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:51]:
What are you noticing?
Kim Torrence [00:31:53]:
No, it just feels very. Makes so much sense, everything you’re saying.
Linzy Bonham [00:31:57]:
Yeah. I think you haven’t given this offer the credit that it deserves yet, but taking the time to stop and just write down what already you know about it. And also, I would say, solicit some testimonials. Talk to some of your people who’ve come many times about. Okay, what is their experience with it? How do they feel different before and after? What does this mean for their practice? They haven’t said it to you, but if you ask them, they’re going to have things to say about it. Get some testimonials and I’m thinking like a little just like Word document sales page. I know you’ve also worked with Meganson. I say also worked.
Linzy Bonham [00:32:30]:
We’re just buddies. I hang out with her for free. I’m very lucky. She sent me her sales page that she had for her retreat that she’s running in the fall because I’m also going to be running a retreat for group practice owners in the fall. So she shared her sales page with me and it’s just a Google document, but somehow she’s just made the background a pretty color. I’m going to ask ChatGPT how I do that shortly. And she’s just written the description. So it’s not even a website that’s hosted.
Linzy Bonham [00:32:53]:
It’s just a link to a Google Doc, but it looks like a website so it’d be super simple to make. And it’s maybe like three pages, four pages long. And off the bottom of that, the price at the bottom, you’re like obviously worth it.
Kim Torrence [00:33:05]:
Right?
Linzy Bonham [00:33:06]:
This is sales. It’s sales. It’s helping them really understand the value and by the time you get to that price at the bottom, it’s going to be a no brainer for them.
Kim Torrence [00:33:15]:
Okay. Yeah, that’s awesome. That makes a lot of sense. If I’m not saying anything, it’s because I’m just absorbing and also thinking like the tech stuff is another. I don’t even. Yeah, I need to get, I need to get help.
Linzy Bonham [00:33:31]:
Maybe, maybe. Or you can just make a Word document.
Kim Torrence [00:33:34]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:33:34]:
Like a, like a Google.
Kim Torrence [00:33:35]:
Yeah, I want to do exactly what you just said. That sounds so, so simple.
Linzy Bonham [00:33:39]:
So simple. Maybe throw in an image or two.
Kim Torrence [00:33:41]:
Okay, that’s it.
Linzy Bonham [00:33:42]:
Like don’t get in your own way. Right. I think as therapists, like we tend to be perfectionistic people and we get in our own way. We’re like, oh, I’ve got to like build a website for it and I need to get branding done. And it’s like you don’t need any of that. Like literally none. I’ve experimented with selling like some of my biggest offers off of Google Docs and it works if people already have a sense of who you are or they hear a great thing about you from someone else. They don’t need like flashy.
Linzy Bonham [00:34:06]:
They just need to like know the actual information and be able to say yes.
Kim Torrence [00:34:11]:
Okay. Right.
Linzy Bonham [00:34:11]:
You can always make it complicated and beautiful later. But I don’t think that’s actually what’s important right now.
Kim Torrence [00:34:16]:
Okay. That’s helpful to hear. I mean that’s how I even was paralyzed with perfectionism before I even started launching these things. And I was like, I don’t have a sales pin. And I had someone just encourage me to just start. Just do it. And yeah, you’re. You’re right.
Kim Torrence [00:34:31]:
I mean, it’s kind of amazing when you think about it.
Linzy Bonham [00:34:34]:
Yes.
Kim Torrence [00:34:35]:
It’s like, oh, you can actually just do a Google Doc.
Linzy Bonham [00:34:37]:
You can and you should. Yep. So, Kim, coming to the end of our time together today, what are you taking away?
Kim Torrence [00:34:46]:
Well, I feel less anxious. I feel less, like, conflicted about the price. I feel encouraged to. To really honor the value of these offerings, and especially this one that I was, like, not even talking about you. You really helped me to see the value of these. What I was calling lunchtime hour.
Linzy Bonham [00:35:08]:
Yeah. By the way, we’re gonna get rid of that. That’s not in the marketing material. Okay.
Kim Torrence [00:35:12]:
Okay.
Linzy Bonham [00:35:13]:
Thank you.
Kim Torrence [00:35:14]:
Thank you so much. Yeah, I. So, yeah, like, I didn’t even think I would come into this call. Walking away with thinking about that the somatic self care offering as something to really focus on and build up. So that. Yeah, that’s. I have a lot to just, you know, going back to the marketing and just honoring the value that. That’s what I’m walking away with.
Linzy Bonham [00:35:37]:
Yeah. And I think working out some of these pieces with a smaller offer and is going to then help you work on that bigger offer, and it’s also going to help you grow your list and your audience for folks who will be totally ready for that bigger offer from you.
Kim Torrence [00:35:52]:
Okay. This was so helpful. Thank you so much.
Linzy Bonham [00:35:56]:
You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Kim, it’s lovely to see you again. Thank you for coming on the podcast and letting other folks learn with you and be in these conversations with you. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you. This conversation with Kim today reminds me of how easy it is for us to dismiss our own talents and the value of what we do, even with Kim starting to talk about it as, like, just like this. This thing that’s just over the lunch hour, you know, which we.
Linzy Bonham [00:36:24]:
We talked about and kind of joked about as a way to dismiss its value, you know, as though something that happens over lunchtime is inherently not valuable. As therapists and health practitioners, we are so skilled and so knowledgeable in our areas of expertise, you know, in our niche, and we are so good at the specific thing that we do, and it’s so easy to forget that that thing has a huge impact on other people and is a skill that most people don’t have and something that most people cannot offer or are not offering in the way that you are doing it. So if you’re listening right now, now, I encourage you to think about the parts of your talents that you are not fully owning, you know, taking for granted. Think about the value that you bring to folks. And I’m very excited that Kim is going to be sitting down and really writing out the value of what these workshops offer and the problems that it solves and objections. And as she said, this is all, this is sales. Once we have created something that works, and as therapists, it’s usually pretty easy for us to create something that works because we use these skills with our clients every day. So once you take it out of that one on one context and move it into a group and you need to sell it in a new way, just answering some of these questions that Kim and I talked about and writing out the value and the problems that it solves and thinking about what people’s objections are going to be and answering those objections, those are all sales skills.
Linzy Bonham [00:37:45]:
And when we can sell the good thing that we do, people get value from it. And that helps to improve people’s lives. So that selling and marketing piece, although it doesn’t tend to be our favorite, can also be really grounding and energizing in terms of really naming the value of what you do, helping the people that you support understand the value of what you do and in doing so, actually getting those people, getting your help. Right. If we’re not putting ourself out there, if we’re not marketing, if we’re not selling, then people aren’t actually getting the value of what we do. So I’m sorry. So excited for Kim to, to put that together and you know, I’m sure she’ll continue to play with pricing over time, but now we have a floor. There’s a number she will not go below and she can see as she gets feedback and puts the offer together, what that number ends up being.
Linzy Bonham [00:38:31]:
That makes sense for her. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for therapists. If you are ready to go from money confusion and fear to feeling clear and empowered, then my free on demand masterclass is the best place for you to start. You’re going to learn my four step framework to get your private practice finances working for you. You can register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneynutsandbolts.com under masterclass. I look forward to supporting.
