How can you get your numbers working for you as a group practice owner? In this episode, Linzy dives into the steps group practice owners need to take to make your numbers start working for you.
Overcoming Our Money Stories with Catherine Quiring
“Getting through your program helped me get through money feeling overwhelming to ‘I can do this.’ That enabled me to get through the battle with insurance companies, and changing my EIN, and getting off of some insurance companies and dropping clients out of the blue. I was able to feel like, ‘I don’t have to feel overwhelmed by this. I can do this. That experience [gained] through your program is what enabled me to do that in other settings, too, which has been really huge.”
Catherine is a Mental Health Counselor with a private practice in Pensacola, FL. She specializes in helping people come home to themselves, trust themselves, and live fulfilling lives. Catherine has 2 little kids and a wonderful husband. She loves paddleboarding, kayaking, and doing Zumba in her spare time.
In This Episode…
Do practical and emotional obstacles around money prevent you from taking the next steps to level up your private practice? In this episode, Catherine and Linzy dig into how working through those money stories and obstacles has opened up so many opportunities within Catherine’s practice and in her life.
Listen in to hear how the opportunities to expand started coming together for Catherine once she gained practical and emotional control over her finances. Catherine shares about the transformation she has experienced and about the new challenges she faces now that she’s leveling up her professional offerings.
For more from Catherine, or to learn about her new coaching program “Helping Exvangelicals Learn to Trust Their Desires and Reconnect to their Inner Wisdom,” check out her website: cqcounseling.com.
Are you a group practice owner who’s tired of feeling overwhelmed and stressed about your finances? – Do you feel like you’re doing all the work for none of the money and are tired of constantly worrying about your bank account?- Do you want to create a group practice that is financially stable, reflects your values, and takes good care of you and your team?
If you answered yes to any of these questions, you’re going to want to hear all about my brand new course Money Skills for Group Practice Owners! This six-month course will take you from feeling like an overworked, stressed and underpaid group practice owner, to being the confident and empowered financial leader of your group practice.
To learn more about Money Skills for Group Practice Owners click here.
And to book a call with Linzy to talk about whether the course is right for you, click here to get in her calendar now. She looks forward to chatting with you about it!
Catherine [00:00:01] Getting through your program helped me get through money feeling overwhelming to like I can do this. That enabled me to get through the battle with insurance companies and changing my EIN and getting off some external companies. And I’m just like dropping clients out of the blue. And I was able to feel like I don’t have to feel overwhelmed by this. I can do this. That experience, and experiencing that through your program, is what helped me be able to do that in other settings too, which has been really, really huge.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast. So today’s podcast episode in all transparency was supposed to be a coaching episode, but when graduate Catherine Quiring came on and we started talking about where she’s at and kind of her next steps and the things that she wants to dig into, it quickly shifted it into a conversation about her transformation and what has happened with her about money that has enabled her to get to where she is now. So today’s podcast is actually a Money Stories interview with therapist Catherine Quiring. Catherine is a mental health counselor in Pensacola, Florida. She specializes in helping people come home to themselves, trust themselves, and live fulfilling lives. And that is very much what we start to talk about today and what I got from Catherine as we were interviewing her about her experience with going from feeling really tight and guilty and scarce around money to where she is now of feeling grounded and starting to expand. She talks about how doing her money work allowed her to make more in her practice, expand the time that she has with her kids and the time that she has for herself, and now has actually created the grounding for her to expand beyond therapy into coaching exvangelical to come home to themselves, as she has. It’s a very rich conversation exploring what money means for us emotionally as therapists and the way that we show up in the room, but also as people in our lives and what doing our work around money starts to open up in terms of possibilities about who we are and what is possible for us. Here is my interview with Catherine Quiring. Catherine, welcome to the podcast.
Catherine [00:02:53] Hi, Linzy. Nice to be here.
Linzy [00:02:55] So, Catherine, you are a grad of Money Skills For Therapists and you did the program. How long ago now did we work together.
Catherine [00:03:02] I don’t even remember. The days roll together. I have little kids.
Linzy [00:03:06] I get it. I get it.
Catherine [00:03:07] Two years ago? A year and a half ago?
Linzy [00:03:08] I’d say two years ago, I think it was like January. It’s like a year and a half.
Catherine [00:03:11] It was ’21, right? January 2021.
Linzy [00:03:14] I remember. Yeah. Okay. So we worked together back at that time and I’m curious, before we did that work together, what were kind of the stories that you were carrying about money? What did you believe about money going back to January 2021?
Catherine [00:03:28] I definitely thought it was something you shouldn’t talk about. The whole weird place to feel guilty if you have too much. But also don’t be in a place of scarcity because that’s really painful and hard. So you’re kind of bouncing back in like in the middle. And how do you achieve that and how do you find enough space for yourself to exist? So, I mean, in my career I was in social service, right? I was in like really low paying jobs, extremely low paying jobs, really high pressure, lots of hours. And I loved it. And I was able to do a lot at that point but I was able to do that right out of college because my parents had saved money for my college education. So I didn’t have to have the loan, right? So I was able to be like, It’s okay if I only make a little bit of money in a year and I’m going to be okay. So that helped me. My parents have done a good job of saving money and prioritized education. I don’t know that we talked about money a whole lot growing up other than getting an allowance and saving money and that kind of thing. And I tended to be a hoarder. So as far as like I like I remember I would save all my stickers or save all my Halloween candy and I wouldn’t eat it because then it was going to be gone. So yes, but all of my like everything else was provided for. And it was so hard when I went when I was out of college. And I think mostly when I went back to grad school because I didn’t have like an even well-paying job. Right. You’re like it was not much at all during grad school and like working at Starbucks for like a few hours a week. And I had all sorts of health complications at that point, like 15 years of like trying to figure out what was going on. And so there was just a lot of desperation and scarcity feeling then. Like I knew I had a safety net. Like my parents were like, you know, if something bad happened, I had a safety net. And I’ve always felt that way. And honestly, I think that’s part of what’s enabled me to like launch into new things because I’ve always felt like it’s okay, I have a safety net.
Linzy [00:05:27] Totally. I mean, that that privilege is huge.
Catherine [00:05:30] Yes. Yes, it is huge. Yes. Right. Because I’ve always felt like I have a sense I have a safety net. If something doesn’t work, it’s okay, even though there’s a lot of stress around it. But yeah, I was definitely in this place of I don’t want to make too much, like you can’t be those people, right? And but like, I can’t just keep scraping by. I mean, things changed for me as careerwise when I had kids because I had just come out of an agency that I didn’t like working with and we were moving and it was just like, okay, it’s time for a change. And I was so like, I was on board, like I’m doing private practice. This is great. My husband was like concerned because he was the primary breadwinner and it took a while to build it up. Right? So that was a lot to ask of him. And he’s been really grateful now because my private practice is doing really, really well. But yeah, I because I’m a therapist, I love working through money stories. That’s a lot easier than working through the actual, like, nitty gritty of finances. That’s a lot more fun.
Linzy [00:06:26] Yeah, right.
Catherine [00:06:29] You know, I’m like Ben Stein on Tiffany McLain’s podcast. Right? So like all of the the money stories, the money mindset kind of stuff and just eat that up. And that’s the first thing that got me thinking about my rates. Because I started out just doing the thing most people do and like what is everybody here charging?
Linzy [00:06:46] Yeah, look around.
Catherine [00:06:47] Okay, that’s going to charge. And so I set it at 100 to start and then everybody tried to talk me down like would always want sliding scale. And when I changed it, from listening to Tiffany’s podcast, to 125, nobody tried to talk me down anymore.
Linzy [00:07:00] Interesting.
Catherine [00:07:01] That’s good! Great.
Linzy [00:07:03] So you crossed a line out of, like the bargain hunters kind of like.
Catherine [00:07:07] I did. Right? Exactly.
Linzy [00:07:08] Yeah, that’s interesting.
Catherine [00:07:09] Part of that may have also been because I was renting space from a nonprofit, right. So that the people who were already like around that space that I was renting would have needed lower income support. So I mean that complicated that. But yes, it made a big difference. There was something about that 125. And so like I think psychologically the way that money comes across to people is really important, right? And like, it just felt like that was such a big difference, even though it was only a minor difference for me pay wise at that point because I was still building. Yeah, it was such a huge difference. Me being an expert, that’s worth that money, right?
Linzy [00:07:45] So I’m hearing like with that mindset, like you binged Tiffany McLain’s The Money Sessions, which – recommend we we love – so I’m hearing that helped with mindset shift but there was still this like actual you mentioned like the actual financial, right. Gritty financial.
Catherine [00:08:02] Yes.
Linzy [00:08:03] What was happening with those at that time when you had like already raised your fee? What was happening with your actual financial systems or management?
Catherine [00:08:10] So I feel like across the board in my life, that was not as great as I had been in the past, once I had a child.
Linzy [00:08:17] Oh, yes.
Catherine [00:08:18] Yeah. So I started my practice four or five months before my first child because we just moved. So like, I mean, there was really nothing else I could do about that, but it gave me time to like really be able to research and start my practice even though I wasn’t making much that year. And so where I used to record everything I would buy personally as well, that kind of went out the window because there wasn’t time. You just, you’re in and out. It isn’t like put a note on your phone about what you paid. And because our finances were different with my husband, he is a money guru and- or like he just loves accounting and planning and spreadsheets and like figuring out like the best combination of things with accounts and and so it gets really overwhelming to me. So I had this kind of combination of those things happening where before, like I knew how to keep track of it for me, just for myself and without like the complication of like pressure on my time with a child or a baby at that point. So I didn’t have enough knowledge of that. I started out with a ledger, right? I started with a spreadsheet, just a ledger, of my clients. And then I ended up going to like an EHR and using simple practice and that helped me and that was like a learning curve. I don’t understand how you’re putting the numbers in here. You know, I figured that out. So it’s all been a huge learning curve. And then once it was like, okay, I’m full, but this is still not working for me at my current rate or with how much I’m working. You know, I had some miscarriages in there, that was COVID and quarantine, and then also being exhausted being pregnant. And so like there were just so many things. It was like lifestyle just kept having to change. Like, I just kept having to update things based on what I needed so that I could have a pretty good life, so that I could be present for my kids. I could have some energy. I can be present for my clients. That was one of the biggest things I got out of Tiffany’s mindset stuff was that I’m going to be a better therapist if I’m paid well and if I am present and if I really want to be there and my time is valued. And I felt like really valued in my first job working at a residential center, even though I didn’t make very much, I felt very valued. And then I was at an agency for not very long before we moved, and I didn’t feel valued. I just felt like this is all about like how much money you can make. And I was doing like 38 clients a week and it was awful. I hated it.
Linzy [00:10:42] Inconceivable. I don’t understand how that works.
Catherine [00:10:45] It was awful. So I was just in a daze. Like, there are a few clients I really felt like I connected with. I’m sure I help people, but, like, I just was, like, constantly in a daze, like, just trying to survive. I do not want that anymore. And so that’s why I decided to do private practice. And any time I start feeling like it’s too much, like I know what that feels like inside. And then I’m like, okay, something has to shift. Schedule, how much I’m charging, what insurances I’m taking, and how much they pay. So I’ve been like progressively just like shedding insurances and raising my rate, working fewer hours. Like I worked a lot more when I had my first child than I do now with two kids. Like, I take Mondays off because I know the weekends are really busy. And so like Mondays are my day to just- I need to rest and it cannot be appointment days, it cannot be take care of all the little things, it has to be Catherine rest time and like that is so huge and really protecting that or fun time. It really seems to be more fun time. So I go paddleboarding and kayaking and go to Zumba and stuff like that. And then Tuesday through Friday, at this point, I work 10 to 4/4:30. So I have time with my kids in the morning and then I can hopefully exercise or cook dinner or something in the evening. That’s shifting because my daughter is going to have to go to school earlier pretty soon. So we’re moving things around for that and I’m taking a day off to work on uplevelling now because I’m doing Maegan Megginson’s Spotlight program starting next week. So that’s shifting things too. But that’s been made possible because of these changes. Like I made the biggest change in your program when I went from charging 125 to 175, because I did the Salary Play Sheet and I was like, 150 doesn’t cut it. Like there is no dent in any of the numbers if I do 150. Like the numbers are so important and having a way to look at them that wasn’t just overwhelming of like, I’m just trying to plug in this and that and like I was trying to do that all the time with spreadsheets before that and just overwhelming because I didn’t have the right tools to do it. So like you gave me the tools and the confidence and like the way to work through that. So I have good systems.
Linzy [00:12:50] And what I love with that is, is hearing, Catherine, how like you I mean, it sounds like intuitively you were already shifting things probably before you took Money Skills. Is that fair to say?
Catherine [00:12:59] Yes, right.
Linzy [00:13:00] But now you also have like this clarity and information to make like really informed shifts.
Catherine [00:13:05] I had the numbers then, right? Like before it was just mindset shift. Just what feels right. Not like I also then had the numbers. Yeah.
Linzy [00:13:14] And what I love about that is I think so often – I see some of this in myself sometimes and I certainly see it in folks around me too – is sometimes I think we feel like we have to do it now, you know, like it has to happen now. Like I have to make my money now. But when you have like little kids at home, that’s like such a specific chapter of life. And I’m really starting to come to think about money and work and our time in terms of chapters, right? Like different things will make sense in different chapters. When you have a newborn at home, different things make sense that when that kid needs to be at school at a certain time, that’s a shift that happens, which is going to be different when they’re actually all in like public school, and then maybe they actually get out earlier than they did before. Like our schedules need to shift, you know, depending on kind of the roles that we want to play as parents. Right. But also our fees might need to shift to keep the money working within those schedule changes. Or as things become more expensive because our kids are doing X, Y, Z, that suddenly adds like, you know, in my family, my son’s preschool is 1300 dollars a month. Like, that’s significant. That’s real. I used to live on, 1300 dollars a month when I was in my twenties. Right. So, like, that’s that’s very real and that’s like a certain chapter. And at some point that chapter ends and then maybe the 1300 will be called somewhere else, or maybe that will go back into our retirement fund. But really like being attuned and something that I think is so powerful. And what you’re saying is it sounds like you’re you’ve been attuned and true to yourself in actually like building your practice and your schedule to suit your needs rather than trying to wrap your life around a practice with a rigid schedule.
Catherine [00:14:43] Right. And you’re asking me some of the ways that the mindset shifts have impacted me. So I was just thinking about even like, I’m able to listen to my desires, not just my overwhelm, right? Not just like, Oh, no, I’m overwhelmed, I need to change something, but I can listen to my desires about my business, right? Just like I’m teaching my clients to be able to like they can listen to their desires.
Linzy [00:15:06] Isn’t it nice to practice what we preach?
Catherine [00:15:08] So great. Feels good. And then you’re like, I just want to share it. I want to share it with everybody.
Linzy [00:15:14] So, Catherine, what do you want to get more clarity on in our conversation today?
Catherine [00:15:18] Well, I feel like I got so much out of the Money Skills For Therapists program and now I’m kind of- that’s enabled me to move to the next level of my business. So I’m starting a coaching program next week and will be upleveling my business and adding coaching and programs and stuff. So that will be a whole new thing to do. Yeah. Lots more to consider there.
Linzy [00:15:41] So it sounds like you’ve built out kind of your foundation and now you’re able to, like, expand from it.
Catherine [00:15:46] Right.
Linzy [00:15:47] Okay. So tell me about what’s coming. What are some of the things you anticipate that’ll be helpful for us to think about together?
Catherine [00:15:52] So one thing is I just incorporated to be an SCorp by the end of last year, and it was a nightmare updating EINs and everything. So I’m like, Well, at least I won’t have to do that for insurance panels now. So it should be easier for a coach. Like it should be way easier. That’s something else. We don’t know – this is the first year that we’ve had the taxes from that – like how much of a tax advantage that is or how much I need to be making there for that to be a tax advantage. And I’m not sure if I end up scaling that back a little bit, how that might affect that decision or if there’s a way to change that designation or if there’s any point that I need to think about that or kind of how to keep tabs on that is something I’ll need to be.
Linzy [00:16:37] Yes. Because you’re therapy practice is now an SCorp, but you maybe you’ll be scaling back that work in order to start the coaching work.
Catherine [00:16:44] Right. And right now it’s only by a few clients, but, yeah, I don’t know if that will change more in the future.
Linzy [00:16:52] Yeah. And do you know, kind of what container like what kind of corporate structure you’re thinking of for your coaching business?
Catherine [00:16:58] I was assuming I would need to start with just LLC sole prop and then move into S Corp if it’s- when and if it’s taking enough to do that.
Linzy [00:17:06] So you’ll be running that one as a sole prop with an LLC. Okay. So- and for Canadians listening, I should say that means that there’s like some legal protection as an entity, but you still get taxed as an individual person. It sounds like there there is like some math there that could be interesting. As you’re anticipating, what is your ultimate vision with the coaching? Like, do you envision yourself being a therapist and a coach at the same time?
Catherine [00:17:27] At this point? Yes. I don’t know if at some point I will decide I like that so much more and it’s hard to do both. But at this point I love my one on one clients and doing that work. So I’m going to try to hang on to that if I can. And at this point I’m just going to try to split it and then we’ll see kind of once I get into coaching stuff, how that goes.
Linzy [00:17:46] Okay. Yeah. So right now, for the foreseeable future, you’re going to keep being a therapist.
Catherine [00:17:49] Right. And like we had talked about in Money Skills For Therapists, my goal is to be the main breadwinner for our house. So this is part- I mean, I wanted to do this anyway just because I want to do it, you know, I’m ready for the next thing. I want to reach more people. But it will also I’m keeping that in mind that I do need to be mindful of that.
Linzy [00:18:10] Yeah.
Catherine [00:18:10] You know, how much money I’m making there.
Linzy [00:18:12] This is not just like a fun little side thing for you, like, this is the money that supports your family. Okay. So thinking about your next steps with the coaching then, in terms of finances, like I’m hearing there’s this question about like the S corp and will that be an issue? So that’s one where I’m actually going to suggest that you keep in communication with your accountant about that, right. To say like there are certain lines where if I cross them – like in this way you might be crossing them going down instead of up – is there a certain point where I need to think about changing anything? Can I even change anything? Because S Corp gives you a tax advantage. S Corp is a certain type of incorporation, for Canadians. It’s like us incorporating in Canada and it gives you a tax advantage. But it also like does it cost money to maintain? I’m actually not even sure about that. Or does it just cost money to set up?
Catherine [00:18:53] It does.
Linzy [00:18:54] Okay.
Catherine [00:18:55] Yes.
Linzy [00:18:56] So it’ll be weighing out.
Catherine [00:18:57] Just a little bit. And it’s more just because it’s more work to send in your paperwork for.
Linzy [00:19:01] Yes, and I know, for me, too. Like being a corporation now, I pay more to my accountant for taxes. It’s like everything’s a little more when you have a certain structure. Okay, so that’s something to just, like, keep an eye on. But it also sounds like that’s a future problem. Like it’s not like you’re planning to halve your therapy income next week, so you’re kind of scaling one down a little so you can scale the other one up.
Catherine [00:19:20] Right.
Linzy [00:19:20] What about on the coaching side of the building up? What are you noticing are some like financial questions or challenges systems pieces with that?
Catherine [00:19:27] Oh, I have not even gotten there enough. I mean, they’ll be there. How much do I charge and how much time am I putting into it for value. You’re right. Like, how much time- my time do I have to put into how frequently I’m touching base with everyone in the program. And what that looks like and everything. So that’ll be partly a financial and time calculation.
Linzy [00:19:49] Yeah. And that’s always an interesting thing when you’re building something new. Right. And especially in your case, do you have clarity on like how much you do need to be earning per month for supporting your family?
Catherine [00:20:00] Not enough. And that’s something that is better partially from going through Money Skills For Therapists is that I have less shame and I have more clarity about money so that I’m able to collaborate with my husband better, but he enjoys the money. So it’s so much more that he is the keeper of our finances and he loves it so much that he makes it unnecessarily complicated. And in my view, it’s too complicated for me. And so that’s where the collaboration comes up. Like if I have enough understanding of what I’m doing. So, like I ended up going to use the spreadsheet or I tried using YNAB at the beginning and then I was like, the spreadsheet is going to work much better for me and that is so much better. And then I can just keep track of what’s in front of me for my business, and he can keep track of where that goes for our family after.
Linzy [00:20:43] Okay. So that’s kind of how you’ve divided.
Catherine [00:20:45] And then he tells me about it. We have meetings about it, but.
Linzy [00:20:47] Yeah, yeah. Okay. You do have meetings.
Catherine [00:20:49] Exactly.
Linzy [00:20:50] You’ve divided that financial labor, because that’s, I think something to think about as you start to step into coaching. And this is like that transitional piece of what is kind of your safe number that you need to be earning for home.
Catherine [00:20:58] Right.
Linzy [00:20:58] That’s also going to give you the foundation to not have financial stress. So you can like be creative over here. It sounds like right now your husband probably has those numbers in his head and in his beautiful, complicated spreadsheets. Maybe they’re not beautiful. Complicated?
Catherine [00:21:11] No, they’re beautiful. Color coded and like like lovely and big and. Yes, they’re beautiful spreadsheets.
Linzy [00:21:20] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because that that piece, there’s a number there and there’s also an emotional piece of like what that needs to be for you to be okay. And I guess that’s a question kind of thinking about making this step. Do you feel like there’s enough money at home? Is there wiggle like emotionally? Do you have a sense of what’s happening with your money at home?
Catherine [00:21:39] There is enough money at home. It’s been a little bit deflating that inflation has happened at the same time. I’m making more so like it’s nice because I don’t feel as pressured because I am making more. But I don’t feel like I have as much wiggle room as I was hoping because of that. Right? Because everything’s just more expensive.
Linzy [00:21:57] Totally. So you’re earning more, but everything costs more, right?
Catherine [00:21:59] Exactly. But I am still making 2 to $3000 more a month than I was before.
Linzy [00:22:04] Wow.
Catherine [00:22:05] So, yeah,.
Linzy [00:22:06] That’s a big difference.
Catherine [00:22:06] It is a big difference.
Linzy [00:22:07] It is a big difference. Okay. So thinking about then maybe the financial piece of coaching and expanding, do you have a sense of what you want to be regaining by starting to move in, into coaching, away from therapy? Are you trying to earn back time? Is it about expanding your impact? Like, tell me what’s making you drawn to to expanding beyond therapy.
Catherine [00:22:28] Mostly expanding my impact. There are, I don’t know, messages or things that I want to get out there very close to my heart that I really feel so limited sometimes that like, with that part of it, it being just one by one hour by one person, you know, and that there’s more that I would like to be able to share and impact. So that is most of the impetus for that.
Linzy [00:22:49] Okay. Yeah, it’s about your reach, which I love, because I feel like that is a very creative place to come into expansion. Right. Rather than like I need to make more, which can be- I need to make more can be very motivating, but it can also be stressful. Right. This seems more like an opening for you.
Catherine [00:23:04] Yes. And I think I will appreciate the extra time that I have in my day to put into that, because that does give me more space to just be and have creative space that not just interactive all the time. So there will be more space, which is nice.
Linzy [00:23:18] Okay, so, that sounds like that’s part of the equation too, which, which you already kind of outlined before, but it’s like I’m starting to like work with groups or have a program so that it’s not just- it’s less of your individual time, more like a group impact.
Catherine [00:23:30] Right.
Linzy [00:23:30] Yeah. And I am curious, since we’re on the topic, what is your topic that’s close to your heart? Because I feel like for therapist listening, I’m sure lots of people have their topic that they love. What is yours that you’re going to be expanding into coaching?
Catherine [00:23:40] So the big picture is just coming home to yourself. My- when I’m planning for my coaching program is specifically for exvangelicals to be able to trust their desires.
Linzy [00:23:50] Oh that’s cool.
Catherine [00:23:54] Yeah. Yeah. But my overall counseling practice has been like helping people pleasers and victims of relational abuse to be able to come home to themselves. And then this is my like, for now, specific niche for my coaching program.
Linzy [00:24:08] So I’m curious like what has lined up to allow you to now step into making this program, doing this work?
Catherine [00:24:15] So your program is one of the big things, the Salary Play Sheet that you have for understanding, like what happens with how much you want to make and what your current rates are, what your rates need to be, and how many. You need to work on what your expenses are, all of that kind of figured in together. That’s what led me to raise my rate by $50. So I went from 125 to 175 and that was a big deal and it took some processing. And I have also recently just started only taking new self-pay clients. So I’m working my way- I got off of most insurance panels. I still have some through headway, but just to keep current clients that I really wanted to be able to keep. But any new clients have been self-pay. Only doing that then has allowed me to make more than I was even anticipating when I was going through the program and how much I wanted to make so that I can have space and be making enough to be able to start something new and have enough time for that.
Linzy [00:25:08] Right? So it’s given you like the spaciousness to build something different, right? I like that so much.
Catherine [00:25:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have two kids. They’re young, they’re toddlers. And so, yes, I feel like my work environment needs to be restful and it needs to be really manageable so that I can be really present with them too. There isn’t go home and relax and just process stuff that’s going to come during work time. So that’s been a lot of the motivation too, of like how to make this work for me and my family. Yeah.
Linzy [00:25:39] Yeah. Because that time is very precious, right? That’s something that I think about a lot lately because I have a son just a little older than yours I think. My son is three. These are very precious years that you don’t get back. I mean, we never get any time back, of course, but especially like your children’s.
Catherine [00:25:53] When they really really want to be around you.
Linzy [00:25:55] Yeah, like childhood is short. Right? Right. And something that I heard recently that really struck a chord with me is you might be living your normal adult life, but for your children, this is their only childhood, this is the only one they get. And that really, really struck home with me, just like thinking about that, like, childhood is short and it’s so it shapes us so profoundly, right? And so as parents, we have this opportunity to really make space for that. Yeah.
Catherine [00:26:21] Yeah. I mostly just wanted to say, like, how impactful your program was to make all these changes and get me to the next place. Like even just getting through your program helped me get through money feeling overwhelming, to like, I can do this. And that enabled me to get through the battle with insurance companies and changing my EIN and getting off some insurance companies and then just like dropping clients out of the blue. And I was just a whole big nightmare. I was able to feel like I don’t have to feel overwhelmed by this. I can do this. That experience of experiencing that through your program is what helped me be able to do that in other settings too, which has been really, really huge.
Linzy [00:26:59] To reflect kind of what I’ve seen of your growth from, you know, the outside, is like I remember you thought for a long time before joining Money Skill, like we were in touch like a couple of times.
Catherine [00:27:10] Right. Like a whole year!
Linzy [00:27:13] Yeah
Catherine [00:27:13] Covid had just hit when I wanted to join. It I was like, I have a little one, I’m pregnant, and it’s covid. There’s no way I can do this right now. But I wanted support.
Linzy [00:27:24] Yeah. And so you kind of touched base a couple times and then you, you joined the program and I’m curious like, having done this work, like I’m hearing it’s opened up the space for you to expand. It’s sounds like it’s increased confidence, your ability, and like maybe resilience. Stick-with-it-ness. To get through these really hard things like insurance that can be so such a headache and so discouraging.
Catherine [00:27:45] Yes, right. I got to the point of doing my finances is just like putting in my notes. It just feels like a regular part of my day. And there’s still parts of that that I want to add into, like those key indicators that you talked about with another guest, you know, some other things that I’d like to expand and more collaborative meetings with my husband so like we’re really on the same page, but there’s so much more space there and there’s the opportunity to add those things in. Yeah. Like, I feel like I have a good foundation.
Linzy [00:28:09] Absolutely. But I’m curious, like having done this work and having built these skills, how do you see yourself differently as a business owner and and as a person.
Catherine [00:28:18] I feel much more capable instead of before, I think I was leading with a part of me that just thought like, this is the only way to do it. And feeling really overwhelmed and stuck to like, No, I can be calm and capable and just think through this. I don’t have to be overwhelmed by it. I can figure this out, even if it’s really hard and it takes a long time and these people are obstructionist and like, I can still do this. Yes.
Linzy [00:28:43] That capability, like the image that I’m getting, we said, is like now you’re like solid. You’re solid in yourself. And now you’re able to use the solidness to like expand. Like it’s almost like a tree, you know, like growing out of the ground. I’m curious, what has changed in your life, even maybe things that are like we’re like a little bumpy or difficult. What’s changed around you by you making these changes and doing this work on yourself so much?
Catherine [00:29:06] But I don’t know necessarily what tangibly. I mean, just little things also from my therapy work of just being able to show up more and be myself and be able to share that with the world. So that’s like my nose ring that I got after all these years and years, I was like I’m going to get it.
Linzy [00:29:24] Yeah. Love it!
Catherine [00:29:25] And I did get some of the responses that I was like worried about but that was okay because I wanted it, right?
Linzy [00:29:32] Yes.
Catherine [00:29:33] And I had a- one of my best therapist friends told me a few months ago just that she could see the changes in me, which was really encouraging, just the difference in just my whole being. So part of it is like I’m also this this journey of coming home to myself more and more, right? And just even this past week, I had this sense of like, okay, I am, I’ve really like put online and connected my brain, my heart, my voice, my gut and my inner wisdom. And that is part of that feeling solid, right? And feeling like, okay, I have what I need and I can figure it out and I can handle whatever is in front of me, which is really amazing.
Linzy [00:30:13] Yeah. And I feel that difference in you too, just in the way that you hold yourself. And I do remember you saying very specifically at the point, because in your case, like, what part of what you identified, like you said, is you needed to raise your fee, right, which not everybody does identify that. But in your case, that was part of your picture. And I do remember you talking about how when you did raise your fee and started showing up to those sessions at that higher fee, like how much more confident you were and like clinically present by charging more money. And I’m curious if you could speak any more to that experience of like what it feels like to charge- for you, what it felt like to go from 125 to 175?
Catherine [00:30:51] Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time I just felt like as a buyer, like, I’m doing this! Great. Like I think even now just to be kind of normal at this point. But also there’s a lot of I’m a very cut to the chase person and I’m just much more like, this is what’s essential. I am going to see this type of client that really fits me and I can really help and like I am happy to charge that much because we are doing amazing work, right? Like even in a few sessions people will be like, You changed my life and I’m like, I hardly did anything. But they already, you know, it’s just that synergy and that amazing like therapy magic, right? That comes out and it’s just really incredible. So yeah, there’s a lot more satisfaction there and fulfillment and confidence, right. And that if this isn’t working, it’s not necessarily something I’m doing, it’s not a good match. And that’s okay to say that. And it’s okay to stick to what I need and make that space for myself.
Linzy [00:31:45] Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting that it’s kind of stopped you from personalizing when therapy doesn’t work, because it sounds like you really know now because you’re charging a higher fee, you know who you serve, like you’ve got clarity around who you serve and also the impact like changing somebody’s life in a couple of sessions for like, what would that be like $350, $525? Your life is changed. That’s a good deal.
Catherine [00:32:05] Right? That’s a very good deal. It is a good deal.
Linzy [00:32:08] And so that’s that’s interesting to hear because before, it makes me curious, where are you personalizing more and where are you kind of seeing folks who weren’t a fit or weren’t really in your niche?
Catherine [00:32:15] I was a little bit. I don’t- I think I was still honing my niche. Right. And then once I knew what that was or what that felt like, and then it’s like, okay, Maegan’s one of the people that is giving me permission to be myself in sessions and I’m doing that more and really that like that relationship with me in the client is so important and it’s okay for that to be important to how it feels to me as well. To talk to the client and be better for the client. Feels good to me too. Instead of I’m just enduring this. Like I’m just here to support them, this blank slate thing, right? That is part of like, I’m moving away from that for myself and I’m moving away from that for clients. It makes a big difference.
Linzy [00:32:54] Yeah. And that’s Maegan Megginson you’re referring to, I should say, for folks listening, who is a business coach and one of my business besties, who’s brilliant and encourages us to show up as ourselves.
Catherine [00:33:04] It’s her her program I’m about to start.
Linzy [00:33:06] Yes, yes. So by showing up as who you are, it sounds like that. I mean, that also sounds like it connects right back to your coaching that can be offering like coming home to yourself, like letting yourself be yourself, nose ring and all. Yeah.
Catherine [00:33:19] You know, and that’s taking a lot of courage even to say, like, I can offer something for exvangelicals in a very evangelical place. There’s a lot of people that I love that are still in that culture and I don’t want to offend them. But at the same time, I need to be able to hold that space and say, like, this is how it’s impacting me and this is impacted others and I need that space to help them heal.
Linzy [00:33:40] Yeah, right. So it sounds like you are also having to kind of maybe be a bit countercultural or go against the grain a bit doing what you’re doing, where you’re doing it when you’re living in Florida. Is that correct?
Catherine [00:33:49] Yeah, northwest Florida, southern Alabama.
Linzy [00:33:53] Yes. So, which I think when we’re in those situations as well, we need to be even more in ourselves. Right. Like to have that solidity because people might not always like what you do, right? Our family members or friends might not always be that enthusiastic or supportive. Yeah. So with this work that you’ve done on yourself, like the money work and, you know, showing up with yourself as yourself more as a therapist. And I’m assuming that coming home to yourself also expands to your life. I’m curious, Catherine, like what feels possible or is possible for you now? That wasn’t before you did this work on yourself.
Catherine [00:34:25] Expanding into coaching for sure, and having a practice I really love and really works for me. Yeah, the thing I’m still trying to figure out is like my schedule is not currently working for me, but that will be sorted out.
Linzy [00:34:38] That’s fixable.
Catherine [00:34:39] Yes. But other than that, like, I have the power to make it work for me however I need it to work for me.
Linzy [00:34:45] So, yeah. And what do you think might happen in your life because of this? Where do you see yourself going?
Catherine [00:34:50] Who knows? The sky’s the limit.
Linzy [00:34:54] I love that. Is that your final answer? It’s like just sky’s the limit. It could be anything.
Catherine [00:35:02] Yeah.
Linzy [00:35:03] It sounds like you’re you’re kind of stepping into this because something that I noticed, I mean, I guess part of my reason for asking that question is I think sometimes when we are small, like when we keep ourselves small, when we don’t want to offend, when we’re tight around money, I think that really connects to that smallness and centricity and not trusting ourselves. Our futures can also feel small, right? Because it’s like, this is it, this is what I know. And like what I’m hearing is for you at this point, with this work that you’ve done, anything could happen.
Catherine [00:35:29] Right. I still have to be able to step into expert status and still working on that. But I definitely don’t feel any imposter syndrome. I don’t feel any like sense of that. I am just following the next step.
Linzy [00:35:43] So, Catherine, for folks who are listening, who might be relating to you and who are thinking about taking maybe their first step of starting to work on their money, maybe joining Money Skills For Therapists. Right. What would you say to them?
Catherine [00:35:57] It’s life changing and I think you should do it. And I know I had heard a bunch of people say that, and I was like, I don’t know, will it be worth it? And I had just come off of a really bad coaching experience. And so I was more hesitant, I think, than normally. I’m just like, Sounds great, I’m going to do it. So I appreciated you took the time and space and were just present with me and just dreaming like a person, right? And saw me, even before I was in the program, and that was really helpful. Like, I knew I enjoyed working with you and that meant a lot to me. Right? So I was like, Well, even if I don’t get a whole lot out of the program, I’m going to get that. And I got so much more. So, so much more.
Linzy [00:36:37] And what enabled you, I’m curious, to take that step to kind of like get off the fence? Right. Like, I’m hearing you could tell that, personally, we’d be a fit working together, which is so important, right? Because like, coaching is like therapy. Not everybody is going to be a fit for you. Right. So in your gut, you’re going to get a sense. But I’m curious, like, what tipped you over into joining? What made you finally take that leap?
Catherine [00:36:56] I think I knew when I had the time and space to do it a little bit more because the pandemic wasn’t quite so pressing where I could actually be in the office and even have lunch to myself. And I knew that I was expanding what I was doing. And I needed support to figure that out because even at that point, like, I knew I needed to change something with my fees or clients or something like I was feeling. Any time I feel too like pressured, like there’s too much and I need to make space, I’m like, okay, that means some sort of policy change. And sometimes it’s time to change something. Yes. Right. And so that was part of.
Linzy [00:37:29] Yeah, yeah. It sounds like I mean, right thing, right time, I think is is important. Right. Like things opened up, the pressure to become enough, that you were motivated to do something, and so you jumped in and joined us. Well, thank you so much, Catherine, for joining me today. It’s been wonderful and I’m so excited to see what offers you’re going to come up with over the next year or so.
Catherine [00:37:48] Yeah, me too, thanks! It’s been so great to talk to you Linzy.
Linzy [00:38:03] In my interview with Catherine. What really stuck out for me is, even in an embodied way, how different Catherine is now from when I first met her and before she started doing kind of the more practical pieces around money, like she mentioned in the interview, she had already done some mindset work around money for sure, when she started working for me and there are certainly things that she had already done and like wonderful mindset work that she had done through, as she mentioned, listening to Tiffany McLain’s The Money Sessions podcast, which if you are not listening to, I definitely recommend. So she had already made some moves around money, but when I first met her, she was very kind of tight around money and her systems. She felt like there was one right way to do it. She didn’t feel like she could learn how to do it her way. And noticing the difference now in her body and of course also in like the things she’s talking about and saying, you know, like when I asked her, what does this make possible for you? And she was like, Sky’s the limit. It’s like, you know, the vastness of her sense of her future, but also just her groundedness and her presence and just she’s more herself than I think she was when I first met her, through this very practical work that she’s done around money and the mindset work that she’s done around money. It just makes me feel so good to talk to a grad and just see how their life has been transformed around money. And as Catherine says, if this is work that you’re thinking about doing, what you’re going to get out of it is often so much more than you think, because those practical pieces around money and how we get tight and small and unsure and how much it undermines our confidence when we don’t know how to make money work for us is often limiting what is possible for us so much more than we realize. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. We’re sharing free, practical and emotional content around money on there all the time. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is so helpful to get more therapists who want to hear these conversations connected with the podcast. Thanks for listening today.
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