Meet Diane Webber

[00:00:00] Diane: It’s just the relief and the opening. I use the word liberating sometimes. It’s like it just opens up so many more choices. And I think there’s a lot of I can’t do this because I can’t earn enough, or I can’t do this because I can’t… And when those things are figured out, it means you can make choices. If what you really want to do is X or Y, you’ve got the system in place that’s going to now say, go! Go do that!

[00:00:26] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:47] Linzy: Hello, and welcome to season nine of the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. I’m very excited about today’s episode because I feel like in a way today’s episode is bringing an aspect of the business of Money Nuts and Bolts forward to share with our podcast.

[00:01:03] I’m having a conversation with our coach from Money Skills for Therapists, Diane Webber. So Diane is a therapist based in Pennsylvania. She specializes in financial therapy, supporting women going through transitions. She’s a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists. She’s a graduate of the Money Boss Mastermind, which was a small mastermind I did a couple of years ago. 

[00:01:21] And now, since last year, she is the coach inside of Money Skills for Therapists. So in that course, Diane and I each do some calls, and together we coach students, and help them through building their skills and changing their relationship with money. And so I’m really excited to bring her onto the podcast today, both to introduce you to her, but also to give you all a taste of the conversations that we also have behind the scenes, like what is it like to help people inside Money Skills for Therapists. 

[00:01:44] So in my conversation with Diane today, we talk about her changing relationship with money through different chapters of her life, right? Through a first marriage, and pregnancy and solo parenting, and a second marriage, the loss of her father.

[00:02:05] We also talk about money in relationships in general, what she sees in her clinical work, how relationships with money can also change through being in a partnership. And we talk about our shared experiences with coaching inside of Money Skills for Therapists. What it’s like to work with therapists; what it’s like to support therapists with talking about something that is very stigmatized and vulnerable and difficult to talk about, which is money.

[00:02:29] Diane made some great connections between money and sex and food, in terms of the charge and stigma around all these things. Very excited to share this conversation with you. Here is my conversation with Diane Webber.

[00:02:58] So Diane, welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:00] Diane: Thank you. I’m very excited to be here.

[00:03:03] Linzy: I’m very excited to have you here. Diane, you are the coach in Money Skills for Therapists right now. I talk about having a coaching team, and Christelle does some support of students, but really it’s you and me. We are the coaching team in Money for Therapists.

[00:03:17] Diane: Yeah.

[00:03:18] Linzy: I’m really excited to have you on today so that, you know, we can talk about you and your experience with money, what you’ve learned about money, as a therapist in private practice and coming from all sorts of interesting professional backgrounds that you do, too. So before we dig in a little bit more to your story, can you tell folks a little bit about yourself?

[00:03:37] Diane: Sure. Absolutely. My name is Diane Webber and I have a small private practice in Northeastern Pennsylvania. For anyone who watches The Office on TV, I’m just north of Scranton, and we carry that with pride here. I opened a private practice in July of 2018. And before that, I spent 16 years working in one of our local universities.

[00:04:01] 11 of those years I supported college students with disabilities and provided accommodations and accessibility, any kind of services and supports that they needed. Prior to that, I worked in corporate America in the Northern Virginia and Washington, D. C. area. So I have, kind of a, a colored work background but in a lot of fun and different ways.

[00:04:22] And what I have truly found is that each of those milestones or steps along the way has informed the next one.

[00:04:29] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:04:30] Diane: And when COVID happened in 2020, I switched to a fully online telehealth platform, and I never went back.

[00:04:38] I work from home most of the time, and I meet a lot of dogs, a lot of cats, I see jammies and robes as well as, it’s a very interesting shift to move a private practice into a telehealth platform, but I really enjoy it. And it really works well with my life these days, so I’m happy about that.

[00:04:56] Linzy: The telehealth thing is interesting. It’s just making me think like I didn’t do a ton of online work like after COVID, because after COVID, I only saw like kind of a small handful of clinical clients before I finally just went, you know, 100, 100 percent into Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:05:10] But it does make you think about I remember one session I did with a client where he held the phone at this really kind of funny, weird angle as he was like, you know, doing his EMDR. And I’m like, kind of like looking up his nose. And it’s yeah, this is different than it would have been in person.

[00:05:21] Diane: Yep.

[00:05:21] Linzy: There’s something kind of very intimate about being in somebody’s home, as you say, like with pets and robes and, yeah.

[00:05:28] It has brought a different aspect to therapy work.

[00:05:31] Diane: Yes. Yes. Very much so. You actually really get to see a different aspect of people, too. You know, you see their lives beyond what they present when they bring it to your office. So it’s been, it’s been really interesting.

[00:05:44] Linzy: You know Irvin Yalom, the therapy writer, I remember reading a book by him where he says, if you have not met your client’s partner or family member… If you haven’t done a family session or you haven’t seen their home, you need to do it because you get this completely different perspective, as you’re saying, Diane, of what that person’s life actually looks like. We all have our own ways of talking about our life and telling our story.

[00:06:07] But for a therapist to actually see somebody’s home or sit with them with somebody they’re in a relationship with is a totally different perspective on the folks that we’re supporting. Mhm.

[00:06:18] Diane: I couldn’t agree more. I also tend to use a lot of very everyday metaphors and analogies in the work that I do. It’s just the way my brain works. I’m all the time going, that’s like this and that’s like that. But when we’re trying to make sense of thoughts and feelings and, anxieties and decision making, it’s hard to wrap our heads around it.

[00:06:37] And so being able to use everyday analogies, it brings it way down to a much more relatable level for people. So I often will use things I see in, on screen and, and, you know, not to mention stories that, you know, I bring back stories and make connections with things. I actually have a lot of fun with that too. You know, it’s kind of a fun aspect of the work.

[00:07:00] Linzy: Yes, certainly. So, in terms of your entry into the role, we were chatting a little bit off mic before we started recording about your journey into actually becoming the coach of Money Skills for Therapists. And I feel like it actually encapsulates a lot of the stuff that we tend to talk about in our community and on this podcast. So can you tell your experience of actually applying to become the coach for Money Skills for Therapists what did that look like for you?

[00:07:26] Diane: Sure, sure, absolutely. If I can back up just a little bit, I was maybe in my second year of private practice and, you know, eager to grab all kinds of learning and resources. And some of the things I was kind of collecting talked about how it was important to have a niche. And when I first opened my practice, I had a long history of working with individuals with disabilities.

[00:07:48] And so I did pick up some of that aspect, but I realized I didn’t want to keep doing that. I wanted to shift. And a lot of the specialties that my colleagues were doing, I honestly, I wasn’t interested. I was like, nah, nah. I don’t know. What’s me? And what I found was that the common thread across so many of my clients, the ones that I was excited to work with when I said, “ooh, they’re coming,” you know, was there was some kind of transition that they were trying to make and money was a key component.

[00:08:17] So, whether they wanted to leave a relationship that was unhealthy and they didn’t think they could afford it, or they wanted to change careers, but they didn’t think they could manage that financially, or they had a loss and now they were in charge of the finances and didn’t know how to manage any of that.

[00:08:34] There was this money piece that I found really interesting and also not commonly talked about. And also not commonly talked about. And I was in a workshop and I said, I don’t know what this is, but this is what I want to do more of. And one of the colleagues said, you might like financial social work.

[00:08:51] You might like financial therapy. And I said, that’s a thing? And she said, yeah, that’s a thing, and started to give me some resources, which then led me down a rabbit hole to some different podcasters and eventually to you as well. And it was in one of your podcasts that I learned about Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:09:07] And it was at the end of 2021. And I remember signing up, and I took the program in January, February, March of 2022. And I just loved it. I love that detail and that I, you know, for those who can see, I’m just curling my fingers because I like getting into some details sometimes.

[00:09:28] And this was a kind of fun and safe place for me to do that. And, I really enjoyed that course and immediately implemented a lot of what I learned both in my private practice and in my life. And then a few months later you offered the Money Boss small group coaching which I signed up for. During that time my father also passed away very suddenly, and my father was… an accounting and finance person in his career and money was always topic of conversation in our household.

[00:10:00] So as soon as I started working after college, I had a retirement account set up. You know, talking about money was a common thing in our household. Whenever you do an exercise where someone says money is, my immediate response is, is like this precious treasure. And, which is, has its pros and cons, because I do very much regard it positively and I see it as something very important, but I also can hold it too tightly sometimes.

[00:10:26] And, so that’s been a great, you know, growth experience.

[00:10:32] Linzy: When I see that gesture from you… like the hands and, you know, folks who are watching on YouTube will see this, but the shadow side, I think, of that is it reminds me of Gollum.

[00:10:40] Diane: Yes, exactly. And you’re like, oh, this, my precious. Yeah.

[00:10:46] Linzy: Yeah. There can be a clutching or clinging, to that reverence.

[00:10:50] Diane: Yes, yes, and that, that can get in the way very much. So part of through the Money Boss small group coaching program, it inspired me to do a workshop with our local college community about financial therapy, about financial anxiety, and how that may be an important topic for college students.

[00:11:08] Personally, I have a 17 year old. So thinking about his relationship with money as he gets ready for college, my past history with college students, I thought this could be a really interesting topic and a fun way to practice speaking about it. And it was really well received from that. One of the local universities has asked me to come and do more workshops about it.

[00:11:30] And the topic was really about our relationships with money and why they’re important. Just like we have a relationship with food, we have a relationship with our loved ones. We have a relationship with ourselves and our bodies. We also have our relationship with money, and it’s not often talked about, or talked about comfortably, and it’s important.

[00:11:46] So, that was a really neat experience that started to bolster my confidence in that area. 

[00:11:51] And I just kept kind of coming back to this piece because I really enjoy that education component, and I like the community component that private practice, and especially at telehealth private practice, lacks. And I kept thinking if you want this you have to go out and find it. You have to create it. You’ll have to get it because your job isn’t giving it to you right now, and that’s okay. You just need to find it somewhere else. And it was June of 2023, and you posted an announcement that you were hiring a new coach.

[00:12:23] My family and I were getting ready to go on vacation. We had saved up to go on a trip to Italy, and my mom had decided to go with us as a really neat thing to kind of feel connected to our family despite my dad’s passing. And when I submitted the application, it was really great. really fun and I have a lot of pride in being able to say, I, as I write this, I’m about to go on vacation.

[00:12:47] And through this course, I have money set aside for vacation. I have money set aside for my operating expenses. I can lighten my workload for the next two weeks while I travel. And, um, so this is that work in action.

[00:13:03] Diane: That was really fun to be able to do, to just, you know, crank it out, which is not my style. I am a very methodical person and I was like, if you want this, you’re going to focus on it over the next three days and get it submitted. And, yeah, which was also fun and a bit of a stretch for me as well. But, as we see, it worked out. I’m just loving the work and loving watching the transformations happen as people join the course and work through it.

[00:13:29] And, the lessons that they learn and feel comfortable sharing at the end are, are really fun. I’m sad when some of the folks graduate. I’m sad. I’m like, Oh, I’m going to miss them.

[00:13:39] Linzy: Ha ha ha ha ha! The course used to be cohorted, right? So it used to be that there was like a group that would move through together, and it was much shorter, right? So now the container right now for Money Skills for Therapists for folks listening is a six month container, right?

[00:13:50] So it’s kind of like folks have lots of time to access as much support as they need, and like Diane and I really get to know people in that time because if folks decide to show up a bunch, like if you show up to every call, you’re going to see Diane and I each 12 times, right? And so it’s like we really build those relationships.

[00:14:05] But before, when I first built the course, it was only six weeks long, not six months. And so it would be very intense, getting to know everybody over six weeks and then having to say goodbye to everybody all at once. And one of my decisions that I made when I really leaned into this business is I was like, I can’t

[00:14:22] actually do that emotionally. I can’t be saying goodbye to a group of people all at once every, you know, three months to have to say goodbye to a group of people that I’ve gotten attached to, like the emotional kind of ugh that was so much because yeah, we do really get to know students.

[00:14:39] And this is what I say to folks. If you show up, like we will know you, we will support you. We will love you. Because we do really get to see folks progress and grow and understand what makes folks tick over our six months together.

[00:14:52] Diane: Yes. And there is often life that happens in six months, and that is also what happens in our businesses. So we’re constantly adjusting and recalibrating. And so for us to be able to experience that with them, and help present options can also be really useful for now and well into their futures.

[00:15:15] Linzy: Absolutely. As you were telling your story of going through Money Skills and then going through Money Boss, and stepping up to, basically like putting yourself out there, right. In your own community and starting to do this financial education. I mean, I remember supporting you through that process, and the other amazing therapists in that group supporting you through that process.

[00:15:32] And something that I remember noticing towards the end of Money Boss, which I would say is still very much alive now, is like you’ve developed so much more of a sparkle.

[00:15:42] You sparkle so much more.

[00:15:44] You and I, similarly, are people who tend towards a kind of safety and we can be probably overly safe of weighing out, does this make sense? Right. And more on the probably staying small side of things rather than the… you know?

[00:15:56] Diane: Yep.

[00:15:56] Linzy: That is something seen in you over the last a couple years that we’ve known each other is like you have really… and for you it is sparkle. I don’t know how else to say it.

[00:16:04] Diane: Thank you. Ha, ha.

[00:16:06] Linzy: You sparkle so much more in the work that you’ve done and in putting yourself out there and realizing oh people want to hear more of this, like they’re asking me for more in your community and then like through coaching in like Money Skills you’re just so much more yourself. So much more open than you were a couple years ago when we first started working together. Like I can see that work that you have been doing on that, that aspect of your life. Yeah.

[00:16:31] Diane: Thank you. First of all, I really appreciate that, and I’ll say it doesn’t come without being terrified. My first coaching call, I had a very detailed outline of what I was going to do, and I had a PowerPoint, and you know, I was like, and, and then I realized everyone in the room is human, and they were so enthusiastic and excited, and, yesterday’s coaching call, we did takeaways at the end, and it was really powerful to hear each of the students say what they were taking away, and I was like, wow, okay, that’s awesome.

[00:17:04] Christelle and I joked about it not long ago. I said, I’m starting to use more GIFs. I’m getting a little pizzazz in the mighty networks. And, it’s like, it’s in there. it’s in there, but I am a very methodical person. I tend to be more on the reserve side. I grew up, I was born in 1975.

[00:17:20] So I grew up very much in the eighties and nineties when the societal pressures were to stay small. No fat, low fat, be tiny, you know, and I’m a petite person also. And so it was like every message I got was just be very, very, you know, under the radar, and don’t make a lot of waves. And, so it’s been interesting to really think about if you’re in a service profession in your own business, it’s important to be seen and heard, and people can’t know about you unless they know about you.

[00:17:51] And that’s been a real kind of back and forth. interplay or I don’t want to say struggle, but it’s been a really interesting conversation in my own head about, no, no. And then yeah, people don’t know you’re out there unless they know you’re out there. And that’s an important message for us and all of our students as well, you know, in the work that they’re doing.

[00:18:09] Linzy: Yeah. And this is what I see in the therapists that we support: folks are so talented, and they’re so capable, and they’re so brilliant in whatever niche they’ve carved out for themselves. They know so much about the thing that they know, whether that is mental health or folks who are, you know, SLPs or OTs, like they just have such brilliance.

[00:18:27] But when you keep your brilliance privately in your own little home office.And then, you know, wonder why folks aren’t finding you. It’s well, they’re not going to wander through your house.

[00:18:37] Diane: No one else gets to enjoy it.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:41] Be like, where is this person? Haha, yeah.

[00:18:46] Linzy: For me, being in the online space and being like the face of, of Money Skills for Therapists and like trying to get folks in the door to like work with us so we can help them with all these pieces that we support them with, you know… There is this phrase, which is like selling is helping.

[00:18:59] And it can feel super uncomfortable to sell and be like, I’ve got this thing. This is what the thing does. This is the results we see. I’m not making this up. You know, and the things that you and I see in the program every day, it can feel extremely uncomfortable. And sometimes people get… They’re not happy that you’re selling.

[00:19:12] They try to tell you to be quieter. But if we don’t let ourselves be seen, if we don’t help people understand, this is how I can actually help you, then we can’t actually help them. They’re not getting the full support that we’ve already created a container to do. And so that’s true of therapists and like the therapy work that they do, but it’s also true of courses and the kind of work that we’re doing. Like you need to kind of toot your own horn and be like, this is really great.

[00:19:36] I’m over here. Otherwise, nobody knows what you’re doing, and they’re not going to get the benefit of what you do.

[00:19:42] Diane: Yeah, I fully agree. I think it’s worth pointing out, too, especially for those in the United States, there was a cyber security breach and, to just point out that even those of us who’ve had a lot of experience and would like to think our money skills are fine tuned or fine tuning, still experience fear, you know, still are like, Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?

[00:20:06] How’s this going to work? And, myself included, My practice is 100 percent insurance reimbursed and, the EHR system that I use for my records management uses Change Healthcare significantly. And so there’s been a huge delay in any kind of reimbursements coming in. And for me, even though I’m in this all the time, every day, to go, Oh my gosh, what is this going to mean?

[00:20:34] And then to be able to kind of pause and say, okay, you have your systems, you know, you know what you do. You just go back to those basics and look at what you have. And you can move things. That’s what it’s for, you know… And so I try to be very real throughout as, as a human and, and someone experiencing all, all kinds of things as well as someone who has done the work and seen the results.

[00:20:58] Because that’s also really important that there is no arriving, there is no, you like, we keep reviewing, revisiting as our businesses change, as life circumstances like this, that are completely out of our control happen, to be able to kind of pause and regroup is an important thing also.

[00:21:16] Linzy: It is. And you know, it makes me think about a podcast that I recorded recently with Jenet Dove, who’s one of our grads, I did a coaching episode with her and she used this phrase of “life lifes,” right? You know?

[00:21:27] Diane: Here it comes. Yep.

[00:21:28] Linzy: You make plans; you’re like, oh, I’m actually going to die.

[00:21:31] So figure that out, right?

[00:21:33] And so that’s the only thing that we can anticipate is that unexpected things are going to come up, right? So how do we build systems to help us navigate that without, without the opposite of what you and I are talking about in the place that you and I have both come from, which is like making yourself too small or like controlled, trying to control everything about life.

[00:21:49] How do you make systems that are robust and that will take care of you, but also give you flexibility to live? And still be present and enjoy life… You know, it’s not about, building up your 100, 000 emergency fund, which, you know, we can do, and those of us with kind of hoarding tendencies can do, but it’s the robustness of having a buffer here, and a buffer there, and a bit of savings here.

[00:22:10] And, those things make a really big difference when things like, you know, the Change Healthcare, cyber attack happen.

[00:22:16] Diane: It happens. Yeah.

[00:22:17] Linzy: Right now I’m sure the folks who have the buffers, are feeling, you know, that security and safety much more than the folks who, who haven’t. Because we’re also reliant on these big systems that we can’t control.

[00:22:29] Diane: Right. Right. And to be able to look at accounts and say, okay, I think I could float for about a month. I think I could float for about six weeks. It is nice and concrete. You know, as opposed to what am I going to do? How are we going to do this? Well, let’s see, we’ve got six weeks. If we get to four and we’re still not there, then we look at, do I pick up a part time job?

[00:22:51] Do we get a loan from the bank? You know, but to have those concrete pieces of information reduces the fear quite a bit.

[00:22:58] Linzy: It’s clarity that we’re all about.

[00:23:00] Diane: Yes. And to circle back to the preciousness, you know, it’s that idea, I’d look at my operating expenses account and say, see, you have a buffer in there.

[00:23:10] And I’d be like, but that’s the… And that’s what it’s for. It’ll sink. It’ll shrink. And then you’ll rebuild it. And that’s fine. And so this is your opportunity to actually see it in action. And use it.

[00:23:21] Linzy: Use it for what it’s there for, which is moments like this. So, I mean, speaking of this idea of, kind of, “life life-ing,” and things happening to you, you know, one of the things that I so expect appreciate about you, Diane, and, you’ve already talked about some of your professional experience, which gives you this kind of diversity of experiences that you bring to your coaching.

[00:23:39] But also, you’re someone who has experienced some distinct chapters of life that I think give you a maturity and wisdom around money, having gone through certain things. So I’m curious,

[00:23:50] Diane: Yeah.

[00:23:51] Linzy: Can you tell us a little bit more about what you have learned about money? How has your money relationship changed through some of the different chapters of your life?

[00:23:58] Off mic, you mentioned divorce and remarrying. And you mentioned in this recording about your father passing away unexpectedly. What have those things taught you about money? 

[00:24:08] Diane: It’s been really interesting. and I like using the word interesting because I tend to be an emotional person. And so I can get very tearful very quickly. And so when I use words like curious and interesting, it keeps me in a different space. Not that I’m not comfortable being emotional because I absolutely am.

[00:24:29] Very early on I knew I wanted to be a working mom, and I graduated from college during the dot com startup phase that was huge. So, we had all these little college graduates going into corporate jobs and our little suits and our little bonuses and our, and, you know, now that I think of it, I’m like, Oh my gosh, I was so young.

[00:24:50] And so I worked in management consulting and government contract work in the Washington DC area. And I saw a lot of working moms there, and I knew that was important to me, but I did not like what I saw. You know, and so I thought I wanted to be a working mom, but not that kind. And that was a really powerful observation for me to hold.

[00:25:14] And, which then made me think, okay, so then this isn’t it for me forever… I need to find something else. And my mom worked in a college library her whole career. So she kept pushing, you know, you might want to work in a school or work in a university where your schedule is a little more family friendly and it’s a fun environment and, and so on and so forth.

[00:25:35] I ended up getting married in DC and, and my now ex-husband was from the Pennsylvania area, which is how we ended up back here. And we were trying to decide: do I go to grad school? Does he find a different job, or do we move closer to family? And what we decided on was that we would move closer to family, and I would go to grad school, and he would find a job

[00:25:55] in this area, which is what led me into going to get my master’s locally here. I loved the counseling program. I did not want to be a therapist, but I loved the counseling program. I wanted to work in higher education and researched all the different paths that I could get to. So,one thing that was really interesting is when I went to grad school, I was not working.

[00:26:16] I had a graduate assistantship, but I wasn’t working and I really did not like not bringing in very much income. It felt very uncomfortable for me. I have a vivid memory of standing in front of a vending machine and debating over a dollar fifty for a candy bar because I was like, I didn’t earn this.

[00:26:32] I didn’t feel like I could spend it. And so that idea of having my own source of income was really important and has been throughout.I got my master’s and ended up getting a job at the university where I got my master’s and then I got pregnant with my son, and unfortunately our marriage did not survive.

[00:26:51] Fortunately we’re still very close. We do a great job raising our son together. But, so I was on my own. I was still pregnant actually, and that was really, really challenging. So that idea of I need to be able to support myself and I need… I can, you know, part of it was, I know I can. And so I, and I will, and I’m kind of figuring those things out. Forced me to grow up really quickly in a way. And my family was three hours away, and my brother’s out in Chicago. So I was, you know, pretty much on my own and trying to kind of figure things out with the local community. Which I did. And I have an amazing son, and I met my second husband, as he was a teacher at the university, and it’s really interesting. His relationship with money is very different.

[00:27:37] We both do not like debt, which is the same. I very much like to save and he’s, he supports that, but he’s an artist and an art teacher. And, one of the things that very much stands out for me when we first started dating was that he said, I earn enough money to pay for a trip to Italy, and then I go.

[00:27:56] And then I earn more money to pay for the trip. And then I go, and I was like, wow. Because I was raised to save, save, save. Watch it grow. You know, and I was like, but that makes so much sense. You know, that just, that makes so much sense. So we do balance each other in very nice ways in that regard, because I have a tendency to hold it precious.

[00:28:16] He has a tendency to say, like, why?

[00:28:19] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Diane: We want life experiences. And we have a son together, and so we have really made it a goal to have really neat experiences with our kids. And we are very open to say we are saving for this trip, and then we’re going to go. And in between, we do inexpensive camping trips or things like that because I feel it’s important to be more transparent about money and its purpose and its use, and that it’s important to work for what you want.

[00:28:48] And then you go, and then you celebrate, and then you do it again, and then you do it again.

[00:28:53] Linzy: That’s interesting. Yeah, so your husband really has had quite an impact, it sounds on your relationship to money. It’s changed a lot through that marriage.

[00:29:00] Diane: Yes. Yeah, it has, and in both marriages I was the keeper of the checkbook. I was the keeper of things. And in both cases, my spouses were very fine with that, which was nice. I did not, we did not have conflict about money in either marriage.

[00:29:16] I never felt that was an issue. And I have several friends, and a lot of clients, who experience that a lot. And so I find that really interesting. And it’s one of the things I really like to explore. One of the ways I got more interested in financial therapy was the idea around control of money, literacy, awareness, knowledge, and also different comfort levels around debt.

[00:29:40] Financing things. And I just find that fascinating. You know, I’m like, wow, in a way that I don’t get tired of. You know, there are other things where I might get a little tired and this one I’m like, “Say more.”

[00:29:56] Linzy: It’s so true though. I think that compatibility, I guess it’s compatibility. I’m sure there’s other aspects to it, too, but just being able to be on. By the way, I love that you’re drinking from your Money Boss mug. I just need to say. She’s got her Money Boss mug from the Money Boss Mastermind..

[00:30:12] Diane: I love it. 

[00:30:13] Linzy: Mine broke recently, which was so sad. The handle just fell right off. 

[00:30:14] That compatibility with a partner of being able to come on to enough of the same page about money that it’s not a conflict in your relationship or marriage is a big deal. 

[00:30:26] It’s a big deal because I certainly know couples that do not agree about how money should be managed and don’t agree about what’s valuable and what’s not. Or couples that even though they’re married manage their money very separately, so it’s like one is broke and one has a lot of money, that’s a huge stressor when you can’t get on the same page about money.

[00:30:47] Because everything is money. As a couple, your project is to build a life together.

[00:30:52] Diane: I fully agree, yeah. I find it really interesting, I have some clients that have some debt that they have not shared with their spouse, and I find that really interesting, and try, you know, to gently explore but respect their reasoning, you know, and I’m like, okay, huh.

[00:31:09] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:31:11] Diane: And vice versa, clients whose spouses don’t allow them access to their finances. And I think, how can they not allow you?

[00:31:19] Your name’s on the account. How can you be limited? And, you know, but even having trouble at banks trying to get access to statements or things like that. then the whole piece of, I just don’t want to talk about it.

[00:31:29] I don’t want to… One of my very dear colleagues, you know, I personally am very modest. I don’t like talking about sex. I said, I realized one day to others who don’t like talking about money, it’s if I were to have a very frank conversation about sex, I’d be like, or about food, like those are areas that can be very complicated and, and, and I was like, again, interesting.

[00:31:54] There’s a lot of parallels, a lot of parallels in those three areas of how much do you talk about? How much is not enough? How much is too much? That also has allowed me to be much more compassionate and also curious and careful in terms of any of the conversations that happen, whether it’s with clients or in Money Skills.

[00:32:13] Linzy: Yeah, that’s an interesting parallel, money and sex. I’ve never thought about that before, but I’m definitely the kind of person who will be hanging out with friends and I’m like, yeah, well, how much do you make a year?

[00:32:21] Diane: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:32:23] Linzy: And when I do it, I know that I’m breaking the rules. I know I’m not supposed to do that.

[00:32:27] And of course I will gladly tell them everything about our own financial picture. But I’ve definitely, I’m thinking about one couple that Rodrigo, my partner and I, were friends with for a little while. They moved out of town unfortunately. They were a very cool couple, but I remember, you know, having a conversation with them and they were like, yeah.

[00:32:42] And then our accountant got us like a big tax refund. And I was like, Oh, 5,000 big? Or 10,000 big? I’m like, what are we talking about? What does this even mean? But yeah, you are like breaking the rules, and something I’ve been speaking about, what I was reflecting to you about seeing you sparkle so much more… 

[00:32:59] In myself, too, I’ve noticed myself sparkling a lot more in the last few years. And part of the question I have to ask myself now is: Am I obnoxious? Am I not reading the room? Because it’s like I’m just so excited to talk about these things. But yeah, I’m sure so many folks do maybe experience the exact same way as somebody who starts talking about, you know, sex in a very detailed, personal way at a dinner party and you’re like, I don’t really want to talk to you about this. I don’t even know you.

[00:33:25] Diane: Exactly.

[00:33:26] Linzy: It’s parallel in terms of intimacy, like the level of intimacy and vulnerability that comes with money. Cause we’re so used to it, but I’ve definitely met, you know, sex educators who just will talk about anything.

[00:33:36] And I also am not someone who talks a ton about sex with people that I don’t know. So I would probably feel a similar level of discomfort to what lots of folks feel about trying to, you know, talk to them about money in a really frank way. You got to kind of read the room, you know, with where folks are at.

[00:33:52] And I do notice like with Money Skills for Therapists, I’ve had moments like this on calls and I wonder if you have, too, where like I will say to somebody like, if you’re up for sharing your numbers, it would be really helpful. Sometimes like folks share no problem. They’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:04] Here’s my YNAB or here’s my QuickBooks or my bank. And it’s so educational for everybody else who’s there. Like it is this shame reducer for everybody in the space to see somebody else’s real numbers, whatever it means, whether they’re bigger or smaller or different or like totally different system, like it’s just so demystifying and that’s one of our, our values as a company to have transparency around money, and facilitate those types of open conversations, but also, you know, I’ve had students before who were like, I want to share, but I think I’m going to barf. But I want to share, but I think I’m going to barf.

[00:34:35] Like it is really… it can be really, really activating to share that. It’s kind of like taking your clothes off. You know, but then when you do it, you’re like, Oh, it’s not so bad. Like whenever I’ve gone to a women’s spa, and everybody’s naked, at first, it’s okay, okay, I can do this.

[00:34:51] Diane: Right. Right. Right.

[00:34:52] Linzy:  And then it’s: we all have bodies. We all have bodies. 

[00:34:53] Diane: Exactly.

[00:34:54] Linzy: We all have bank accounts. It’s kind of like all the same thing.

[00:34:57] Diane: Yeah. Mm hmm.

[00:34:58] Linzy: But, it definitely can be very, very charged… Lots of defenses and responses that come up, for us around these types of topics.

[00:35:05] Diane: And I have very recent experiences of it myself. When we were doing some initial training on YNAB, and you were helping me get some things set up, I vividly remember you said, you know, “Can you open your account?” And I was like, “Now?” You’re like, yeah. And I did. And then it was open for a while, and I was like we need to shut this down.

[00:35:27] Someone’s going to get at it. And you were like, I think you’ll be okay. You’re sitting at the computer. I think it’s fine. You know? And I’m like, in my mind, I’m like, you get in, you get out. Like you don’t, you don’t like, cause someone could hack your computer and get it. And so to have it there and to have it there for a long time was really interesting.

[00:35:46] And, You know, so I get it, you know, I get it from living it. An example I often use in more of my clinical work, which is also similar. I have a lot of clients that are debating medication, and they’re very nervous to have that conversation with their doctor, and I normalize it.

[00:36:03] You know, we talk about all the pros and cons and what they’re comfortable with and things like that, and then I often normalize it by saying, so for example, if you had a rash, you’d go to the dermatologist and nobody likes to talk about a rash, but they look at it and they’re like, Oh yeah. I know exactly what that is, and here you go, you know, or, and so various in very similar domains and it’s another example of how everyday analogies can kind of bring it to Oh, Oh yeah, yeah. I see how it’s really not that big of a deal.

[00:36:35] It just brings everything down so that it is not nearly so intimidating or scary and and it kind of puts us all of us on a much more human level

[00:36:44] Linzy: It does, and I think by doing that, we can address something that otherwise will just be a problem forever. Right, like it’s interesting you make that analogy with medication because I personally started on antidepressants for the first time like last year. You know, like I just turned 40, so I was 39 years old.

[00:37:03] I tried medications for the very first time. I’ve done lots of therapy, obviously, but I finally kind of had that conversation with my doctor of I think maybe it’s time I had some other stuff come up, some PMDD come up.

[00:37:13] Linzy: Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. It’s not fun for folks who are listening. And the treatment for that is antidepressants. And so I was like, sure, I’ll try antidepressants. I’ve always been kind of curious. And I will say that it has changed everything about my life. My life has become infinitely easier, right? But it was getting to that point of having the conversation, and things getting bad enough to ask for help.

[00:37:34] And now what I’m having to process is the grief that I didn’t do this 25 years ago. And this is what I see with our students around money, right? And you know, I just had that come up the other day on a Money Skills for Group Practice Owners call where somebody was talking about how just like, “Shit, for so many years, I haven’t been looking at this.”

[00:37:52] And for so many years, like it hasn’t been working and like the pain of that. And then when you finally start to get it working and you’re like, “Oh, I could have done this so long ago.” There is a grief that comes up.

[00:37:59] Diane: Mm hmm. Yep. Yep.

[00:38:02] Linzy: Because it’s hard and it’s scary, but once you address it, you’ve changed something fundamental about your life.

[00:38:09] So it’s worth the work, but it’s hard to get there. And, yeah, it takes many of us many, many, many, many, many years to deal with all sorts of things.

[00:38:17] Diane: All sorts. Yep. And I always say, you weren’t ready then, and you’re ready now. Right?

[00:38:21] Linzy: True. So true. So Diane, coming towards the end of our conversation today, I’m, I’m curious for you, working with students, who are therapists and health practitioners in Money Skills for Therapists. I’m going to ask you, what is your favorite part about supporting therapists with money?

[00:38:41] Diane: Mm hmm. That is a great question. And my instant response is that I genuinely get excited when they have a success. Like I, I literally, I’m like, yes. Like I, when there’s that, aha. And especially if they’ve been working at it, working at it, working at it, and they’re like, I got it. that is so much fun, because I know that feeling of relief and accomplishment when you do something that you have found to be so hard,

[00:39:11] Linzy: hmm.

[00:39:11] Diane: and then it works and the ease that comes after it is, I just get so excited about that.

[00:39:17] Linzy: Yeah. And you know what’s so funny? I don’t know if it’s just because like attracts, but I feel the exact same way in terms of excitement. and this is something that I’ve, I’ve written before about in you know, promotional emails selling the course. Like when I was a therapist, because I did complex trauma therapy and like folks had just so many defenses that were present at any moment,

[00:39:35] part of my demeanor as a therapist is I was very calm, right? Because sometimes my excitement could actually be overwhelming for somebody. If I see them doing some really great parts work, or like processing trauma, my excitement could actually run interference on this very delicate emotional work that they’re doing.

[00:39:50] So I had to really keep that zipped inside. But as a coach and as a teacher, you just get to be excited. And I find that when I’m, you know, often saying goodbye to folks, like when folks are leaving the community and they’ve been there for six months. The word that I always use and I try to find synonyms, but I just can’t. I am so excited for you.

[00:40:08] I’m so excited for what things are going to look like in the next six months. Cause we also know that this is like cumulative work, right? So like the

[00:40:13] good habits that you build add up over three months and six months and a year. And yeah, I feel like I’m just telling everybody that I’m excited all the time, but I am because like, it is such powerful work.

[00:40:23] And once you see somebody get through whatever that barrier is for them, whether it’s like an emotional barrier, like a story, some you know, childhood trauma around money or being small that they start to shift, or whether it’s like learning an actual skill that they needed that now they have forever.

[00:40:38] Like it is so exciting. The possibilities are endless.

[00:40:42] Diane: It’s limitless. Yeah, it’s just the relief and the opening like I use the word liberating sometimes It’s like it just opens up so many more choices where… and I think there’s a lot of I can’t do this because I can’t earn enough or I can’t do this because I can’t… and when that those things are figured out, it means you can. You can make choices. If what you really want to do is X or Y You’ve got the system in place

[00:41:07] that’s going to now say, go! Go do that. I’ve got this. I got this over here. You go do that. And that’s really exciting because they’re going to just add so much more value to the world. And we need that right now. So it’s yes! Go do great things out there.

[00:41:20] Linzy: Exactly. Exactly. Now that you’ve got this sorted out, all that energy can go towards all the amazing things you didn’t have the bandwidth for before.

[00:41:26] Diane: What you’re meant to do. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:28] Linzy: Well, thank you so much, Diane, for coming on the podcast.

[00:41:31] Diane: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s been really fun.

[00:41:33] Linzy: Yes. Thank you.

[00:41:49] Linzy: My conversation with Diane just really brings to mind for me the richness of money. Like we could have talked for like six hours. There’s so much to talk about, especially when you’re somebody like Diane and I, who want to dig in and get into money. There’s just so many facets in terms of money in life and different relationships to money and like building the systems that support you.

[00:42:11] Money is just like a whole universe unto itself. and I’m really happy to have Diane on the team. having those conversations with money skills for therapist students alongside me. So just really appreciative of Diane today. And I’m sure there’s lots of pieces that got folks wheels turning, about money.

[00:42:28] and life and what we want our relationships with money to look like. You can follow me on Instagram at Money, Nuts and Bolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, those podcast reviews on Apple Podcasts really are helpful. They show people that we are a real podcast that people really listen to,

[00:42:45] and that they should want to listen to. so if you can take three minutes to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, sharing about your favorite episode, what you appreciate about the podcast, that’s really helpful for us. Thank you so much for listening today.