Meet Amity Cooper

[00:00:00] Amity: It’s figuring out your North Star and aiming towards that and you have all the skills and all the tools within you and now outside of you to access to do whatever you desire to do and to change the world and make it a better place.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Lindsay Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Amity Cooper. Amity is a seasoned entrepreneur with decades of experience before becoming a trained mental health professional and she’s also an entrepreneurial coach. And today Amity and I talk about tech in therapy. We dig into what are the technologies that are available to therapists.

[00:01:14] We talk about discerning which texts you want to use, but ultimately the fact that there probably is a technical solution to most problems that you are having in your therapy practice. And we ended up having a little bit of a discussion too, about techno optimism. Is tech good for us? Is it bad for us?

[00:01:33] Something that’s definitely on my mind as I’m a parent is I’m thinking about my son’s development, and his social development, and what does technology mean for us in general as humans in the world. Interesting conversation there with Amity as somebody who is very much in this space. And ultimately, we ended up talking about the importance of therapists being involved in these tech conversations.

[00:01:54] You know, these tools and these apps, they are happening no matter what. And we often underestimate our expertise that we have to bring to the table, when it comes to the development of these kinds of tools. Here is my conversation with Amity Cooper.

[00:02:10] Linzy: So Amity, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:22] Amity: Oh, thank you so much for having me here. I’m really excited about our conversation.

[00:02:27] Linzy: Me, too. you are bringing a topic today that is a topic I do not know a ton about, which is we’re planning to have a chat about technology in therapy. So I wanted to start, with kind of a, a toe dip question as we get in. For folks in private practice, therapists and health practitioners, what type of tech should they be thinking about and should they have in their private practices?

[00:02:55] Amity: I love this question. And let me just say that, for many of us, it’s going to be different. We have different type of practices. We have our different skillsets that bring to bear on any choice. Whatever technology we bring into our practices, it has to fit us first and because they’re tools , they’re not running the show.

[00:03:16] We are. So I just have to give that disclaimer to it because there is a plethora of softwares and actual physical tools that we can apply and utilize in our everyday life. Now I’m wearing multiple hats. There’s the hat that we put on to be the business owner. And we think about all of the different software programs that run our back offices seamlessly.

[00:03:43] We can use AI to kingdom come if we want for all the different tasks that make the boring things less boring because we don’t have to think about them that much anymore with these AI agents, it’s generative AI that I’m speaking about. So we have all of these integrations that are taking place where software is being able to talk to each other.

[00:04:09] So different software platforms are now interconnected and entwined so that we, as the human being, are just pushing a button and following through our particular workflow process, but we have the software and the tools to produce that 24/7. So I hope that sort of rounds that one component out.

[00:04:33] When you start to put on your clinical hat of work. There are about three, three to four things that I see on the horizon that are already being used, but we’re slow to adopt in this industry. First and foremost, let me say what the lowest hanging fruit is: video. I mean, we have multiple new generations of video and access to using social media and all of these video telehealth services at large.

[00:05:09] We have really grown in the last five years when we look back, and we couldn’t even imagine. We didn’t even know what the word Zoom was in 2020 and look at us now. I mean, this is incredible. We’re on Squadcast, and there’s numerous different products available for us. So I want to stress to the clinician out there who is really comfortable in their therapy

[00:05:35] seat, explore and sort of expand because telehealth is here, and you can run, and you can reach people at scale with video services. So I think this is a good reminder that we can take it to the next level. But that next level is going to be determined based on what you want and what you need in your desk.

[00:05:56] Okay. So then the next sort of cluster of tools that I see are these interactions with wearables. I’m wearing my aura ring. Okay, so this is a sensor-based accessory, and it can be from your glasses to your aura ring to the fabric you wear.

[00:06:18] The sensor tools that are available at our fingertips and specifically through our smartphone is a game changer because now we have diagnostics. We get real time biofeedback on a particular therapist and a client’s homeostasis. We can monitor those in real time now. Oh, the other thing I was, I couldn’t remember what it was. It’s called Muse. They look like Wonder Woman headbands, and you put them on, and it gives you biofeedback on your meditation.

[00:06:57] Okay. Now you can take that data on a professional level and you can track somebody’s progress on their mindfulness practice. So I think there’s all these ways in which digital therapeutics are infiltrating and coming into the therapy room in a way that really adds value and interest and care and attention that clinicians… We’ve been limited.

[00:07:25] We’ve been limited by what we observe. We listen to the intonation. We listen to the voice. We can look at affect. We see if somebody is depressed or anxious or manic, whatever that may be. But now we have the data to back it and to validate it in a way that we’ve never had before. So that is an exciting entry point into these exponential technologies.

[00:07:53] Linzy: Yes.

[00:07:57]  Amity: We’re seeing that there is an economical step up for you as a clinician. If you were unsure about what you should be trying.

[00:08:07] Linzy: Cause as I think about, the folks who, I work with in Money Skills for Therapists, and probably many of the folks who listened to this podcast, those first two pieces of tech are almost, just, part of the air we breathe right now, right? Like your clinic management system, be it like Jane or, or Simple Practice or Therapy Notes.

[00:08:23] There’s many, many out there. They’re so helpful, and they automate so many things that can be a total pain in the butt. And I think, my observation is, most therapists are using something like that. There’s still folks who are not into it. There’s still folks who, want to do, more of, like, the handwritten notes, and those are folks who I find tend to either have low confidence with technology, like, they’re like, I don’t know how to do that, I don’t how to learn that, but also folks who have low trust in technology.

[00:08:49] Amity: It’s just this is… this is my system, and I’m good with that. Don’t mess with me.

[00:08:54] Linzy: Yeah. So, but I do find the default is that most folks are using a tool like that. And then the second type of tool you mentioned, the video, as you say, has like exploded onto the scene. I remember offering Zoom sessions as a backup if folks couldn’t make sessions, and this would have been in 2018 and that was like, weird, like that was a very strange, unusual thing to be doing. And I remember meeting a therapist who worked only online in 2018 and being like, what do you mean?

[00:09:18] Like you, you only see them on the internet? It was so, so strange and like little did I know that two years later that would be All of us, that would be everybody, for so much time. So yeah, that video piece certainly has also become quite ubiquitous. Most folks at least used it for a while with their clients, if they’re not still doing some of that now.

[00:09:37] But this third piece you’re talking about… This is new. This is something that yeah, like I stopped practicing therapy. So I feel like I left the therapy space before this was even remotely around, which is yeah, this biofeedback, bio monitoring. Yeah. Yeah. and you’re talking about Muse.

[00:09:53] Amity: Actually, somebody that I went to high school with was part of the Muse development team. How cool is that?

[00:09:57] Linzy: Isn’t that interesting? Yeah.

[00:09:59] Um, Yes. But this information, because what I’m hearing you say is, before we’ve had to rely on our clients self reports of like, how anxious were you this week?

[00:10:08] How is your sleep? But now there’s actually information that they can choose to have tracked that actually creates data. We’re not just basing on somebody’s self report and their impression of how things went, which might vary, because we all are very subjective.

[00:10:22] Amity: Subjective, right? We don’t know. We don’t know. Now we have the backup. We have data. We have the information, we have the algorithms, we have everything. And there, there’s a wonderful, there’s a couple of new tools just off the cuff that I, then I’m thinking. One there’s a lot of new services, SaaS services, out there for note taking.

[00:10:43] So it’s transcription services, things like that, that are specifically applicable to our industry. So that’s something if note taking is just the thing you hate to do. Try this out. I mean, just the podcast world has exploded, and you think about how you’re creating all of this content.

[00:11:07] Now you can record or video record. You could get permission from your clients. And you can do transcription services. Now, that is a tricky situation. That’s not going to be for everybody. And of course, there are all ethical rules and regulations for this. And I’m not saying just go out there willy nilly doing this.

[00:11:27] But if this is a curiosity for you, there’s a tool for that.

[00:11:31] Linzy: Yes.

[00:11:32] Amity: You know, I think that’s what I think we both need to stress. there’s a tool for that.

[00:11:36] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:11:38] Amity: There’s a way to make your life simpler.

[00:11:40] Linzy: Hmm.

[00:11:41] Amity: Or easier and more efficient. So you’re not constantly on top of these things. These things are supposed to alleviate the busyness so that you can be with your clients up close and personal and knee to knee the way you want to be.

[00:11:59] Amity: So, I think that’s the disclaimer to all of this.

[00:12:02] Linzy: Yes. Yeah. There are options out there. It’s not for everybody, but like the notes is a great example. like I was just chatting with a student in my course this morning about how she’s having trouble getting to her notes, and getting to the other administrative pieces of the business.

[00:12:15] Amity: And she’s got ADHD in the mix, which I find many, many folks, who I work with in my course are women who’ve discovered at 40 that they’re like, Oh, shoot, I have ADHD. This explains so much about my life. That’s a whole nother topic, right? I mean, diagnosis in adulthood, my goodness,

[00:12:33] Linzy: So, like where something like notes can become a massive stressor and hang over your head and make you feel very ineffective, and just be this constant area that you’re, your critic, your inner critic is going to tell you you’re failing in your practice…

[00:12:45] There are tools that can facilitate that. And, so there are options, right? We, we don’t necessarily have to do all the grunt work anymore. And if there’s an area of real pain that’s undermining your professional confidence, there might be an option for something to, to help to ease that.

[00:13:03] Amity: that. Absolutely. And this is what is so amazing about today. The world that we’re living in. I’m a cautious optimist, but, I have to say as an innovator… I’m entrepreneurial. Okay? And that entrepreneurial mindset is always scanning and looking for openings and opportunities.

[00:13:24] And the world that we’re in right now, we’re unlimited in all our potential and our services, and this is why I feel so thrilled and purposeful about talking about exponential tech because it’s disrupting our industry. We have a technological and clinical gap in our world that we’re facing. The world is speeding ahead, and all of these companies and technologies are advancing and our industry is so slow to catch up, and I want to bridge that digital divide And I encourage

[00:14:07] everybody that I talked to really looked at this as just an amazing frontier to step into. And to scan across the landscape and really take in the view because it’s changing, and we can be part of that conversation. Traditionally, and I think you’re probably aware of this. I mean, traditionally, the institutional powers that be really just have told us how it’s going to be.

[00:14:33] They set the certifications. They set the course, and the pace. Well, technology doesn’t work that way. It is, they have an idea and they figure it out and it’s a minimal viable product

[00:14:47] Linzy: So your job, I see this as our job as clinicians, is that we have to be in alignment with all of these new tech companies because the digital therapeutic space is exploding and they’re coming to us in arrears… They’re coming…

[00:15:07] Amity: After the fact, after the product has already been developed, and they go, Oh, we should fact check this.

[00:15:12] Amity: This is a perfect case of hallucinations that AI has. When you start to input data into a large learning language model,

[00:15:23] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:15:24] Amity: they’re just pulling in and taking in the data that’s inputted into them, processing it, and regurgitating it back.

[00:15:32] It’s a process response structure, and that’s a loose description of it, right? I might not be perfect on that, just give me grace.

[00:15:42] Linzy: Sure. Sure.

[00:15:43] Amity: But they have found with the studies is that there’s biases that are built into these algorithms

[00:15:50] Linzy: Of course. Yeah.

[00:15:51] Amity: My point is, how do you correct those? how do you change the way this algorithm regurgitates the information that it

[00:16:02] experiences? And that means that we have to have the experts, the people that understand these nuances, involved in the research and the development.

[00:16:13] Linzy: Yes. Yes.

[00:16:15] Amity: I think that’s where I’m going. It’s like we have a responsibility here to be co creators with this new tech.

[00:16:20] Linzy: Because, the norm that I see more is that, as you say, they come to us later. They’re like, Hey, there’s this thing. Is this good? Does this make sense? Because yeah, there isn’t the same sense of ethics in that world. That’s not what they’re there for. Whereas what I find with the therapy space, and I’m thinking specifically about the mental health therapy space, we can be so almost paralyzed by questions of ethics, right?

[00:16:43] We’re like, is this okay? I don’t know. Yeah, I, I see a lot of stuckness that can happen with us because we are so, so, so focused on being ethical. But what I’m hearing you say is, basically, we’re getting left behind, right? All these technologies are being created, and if we’re not in there being part of these conversations, like if we don’t have a seat at the table, these technologies are going to happen anyways,

[00:17:04] and we’re still going to be beating our brows over whether it’s okay to use a tool to make this part of our practice a little bit easier, and what all the implications of that could possibly be.

[00:17:16] Amity: Exactly. And then we’re going to say, it’s not a sound product. And that’s our own fault.

[00:17:23] Amity: That is something that’s, the onus is on us for that. Because we were never part of the planning, or the discussion, or the integration. And so I, it’s a call out, not only to us to step up into that role. Okay, as advocate, as innovator. Okay? But it’s also a call out to these digital companies whose purpose are two things. They want to make money, but they also want to create and innovate and bring new tools to the world. So there is a, a back and forth, a titration between these things, but ultimately all we all want the same result.

[00:18:07] We want to advance humanity. We want to solve this mental health crisis. The tools that are available today will definitely help us at scale.

[00:18:17] Linzy: I’m hearing you say that you’re a reluctant optimist. Was that the phrase you used? I’m getting techno optimist vibes from you. I’m to have to say. Yeah. I feel like you might be more than a little bit reluctantly optimist because I also, I’m probably more on the techno critic side of these discussions.

[00:18:34] And, and I’m also, I’m doing a lot of active thinking right now about these things. Cause I also have a child who’s five. So it’s like, What do these technologies mean for social development, brain development? If we’re engaging in these technologies, what are we not doing? I have a lot of these questions and I’m, I’m a big fan of, of Cal Newport, who is kind of like somewhere in the centrist.

[00:18:53] He’s a centrist in all ways, but certainly has techno criticisms. And I’m reading Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation right now, which is pure tech

[00:19:01] Amity: Oh, I’ve heard of that.

[00:19:01] Linzy: criticism. Like he’s not at all optimistic or positive about the impacts on mental health of technology. So this is kind of refreshing to hear you have so much hope around this as a therapist who understands technology.

[00:19:14] Because I think there, a lot of folks would actually make the argument that in many ways, technology has created a mental health crisis, right? Has made us more lonely and isolated, and made us think that we’re connecting with people, but we’re, we’re actually more disconnected. I am curious, and we were not planning to talk about this, but I’m just so curious, as somebody who’s in this world, what is your response to that kind of…?

[00:19:35] Amity: Okay, I’m going to go all the way back to the Gutenberg Bible and the printing press. Okay? Okay. I, I look at the whole discussion around technology is, are we a lemming or not? Like this fear, a Luddite, right? A Luddite had an uprising because there was all this new tools and advancements in manufacturing and development, right?

[00:20:03] Factories. And they fought it because it was against what they knew. Okay. Now I look and then I go back and I think about the development of the Gutenberg Bible, and I think about how the majority of society at that time was illiterate. And then all of a sudden you have a book that is able to share life, and humanize the experience that we’re all having individually. And we can share it and we can access it. I look at technology as our own printing press, right? It is mission of

[00:20:43] Linzy: Yes.

[00:20:44] Amity: And it’s happening regardless.

[00:20:47] Linzy: If we like it or not.

[00:20:49] Amity: It is. We’re moving in this direction. There is singularity that is coming around. This is where A. I. All of this information is running up and meeting in the middle with humanity. Okay, It is destined to be where A. I. is going to be take on a human like form, if you will, like the sentient abilities that we have.

[00:21:19] These machines will eventually start to get there. When is that going to happen? That’s for Ray Kurzweil, the futurist to really discuss, but like we’re on this path.

[00:21:28] Linzy: Mm hmm.

[00:21:29] Amity: So we have to be engaged and part of the design build process.

[00:21:35] Linzy: Yes. Yes. And I’m curious, what could that look like? Like for folks who are listening, and they’re like, okay, yeah, it’s true. It’s happening no matter how we feel about it. This technology is being developed. There’s lots of folks who are very, very smart, in the tech space who are interested and curious and, and innovating and wanting to make these things.

[00:21:51] How do we as therapists claim a spot in these conversations? Should the folks who are listening who also have some tech vision or skills be going out and working to create apps themselves? Should we be emailing companies that we hear are developing a thing to be like, Hey, you need to talk to me because I am an expert on this area.

[00:22:09] How do we insert ourselves?

[00:22:10] Amity: That’s a great question. And, yeah, we can say a lot of you should be doing this, this, this…One thing is, companies are always running pilot programs. They’re always running studies and research, and it’s government entities, too. So I think that there are ways in which you can offer up your expertise and be part of the advancement of science.

[00:22:36] So I think there’s that. I think there’s a couple of crowd sourcing platforms like Citizen Science. Citizen Science is a platform where you go and you say, Okay, I’ve done this kind of research. I’m adding to this conversation.

[00:22:52] Out to the crowd. You put it out to the community at large, and there’s feedback, and there’s engagement, and there’s this wonderful community of like minded individuals who want to just improve humanity. And so I think you can do it on a small individual level, all the way up to a massive scale, however you see fit.

[00:23:16] It’s your life. You decide.

[00:23:18] Linzy: Yes. And I think, too, something that I notice with therapists sometimes is we tend to undervalue or underestimate our expertise. You know, therapists, certainly the type of folks that I end up attracting, tend to be perfectionistic. We focus more on what we don’t know than what we do.

[00:23:33] We’re like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been doing this for 20 years. But, you know, there’s this other thing I don’t know how to do or… Part of what I’m hearing is, own your expertise, right? Own what you know. Own the fact that you’ve done possibly thousands of hours of clinical work with folks around a certain diagnosis or issue, and bring that to people who are making things that know literally very little to nothing.

[00:23:55] Cause the other thing that I think about is a lot of folks that I see in Money Skills for Therapists, and in my audience in general, it’s kind of like, sometimes you get to that point where you’re like, my private practice is full. I’ve kind of like capped out here, but I feel like I have more to offer.

[00:24:09] Maybe those folks should be actually looking to develop technology, like make apps, get into using these tools. Cause I’m thinking like the combination of I’m going to talk directly about that person, the combination of your expertise and your sense of ethics and your understanding of what doesn’t work,

[00:24:27] plus somebody who can develop technology, you can make something incredible that could really positively change people’s lives. But if we’re not inserting ourselves into these processes, then our expertise is left to the side of the road.

[00:24:40] Amity: I, yes, absolutely. And, you know, it’s interesting because when you look at our demographics, we are a group that we’re one of the most highly educated, top performing professionals in the world. We hold second degrees. We have so many unfair advantages. Really?

[00:25:08] If we’re talking from a marketing standpoint, just, I mean, we’re highly educated. We’re great listeners. Oh my gosh, our emotional IQ is like through the roof, and yet we sit there, and we’re some of the lowest earners in professional service industries. And we’re still questioning whether or not we’re good enough.

[00:25:33] Like it is unbelievable to me and I just, it doesn’t sit right with me internally. I just, I’m like, you have so much to give and share with the world. Go make an app. And who’s to say, I mean, the reality is I do most, mostly career coaching, transition coaching, and at this point in my life, I look at if I were to speak to somebody who has been a clinician for 20 years and they’re wondering about what’s next, the world’s your oyster.

[00:26:08] You can do anything you want. You can imagine and be and develop anything you want because you have skills that are desirable in the marketplace and are

[00:26:18] Linzy: Yes.

[00:26:19] Amity: So good.

[00:26:22] Linzy: That’s a really helpful perspective because I know your professional history was outside of the therapy industry for many, many years. And I think when we are inside just one industry for our whole careers, we don’t necessarily realize what we have going on as a group of people that other industries do not have going on.

[00:26:37] And this is what I’m noticing as some of my students and peers step into, say, the business space, and talk about the impacts of trauma, and they’re like blowing everybody’s minds at that table. Like all these highly successful people, look like they have their whole life figured out, are just completely baffled and amazed by the information that’s being shared with them, which is information that for that clinician is like something they talk about literally every day, multiple times a day.

[00:27:04] It’s just like, obviously everybody knows this, but anyways… But they don’t . So, yeah, I think that that, especially coming from you, is a good affirmation for folks listening. You know so much more than you think you do, and you have so many more skills than you think you have.

[00:27:18] Amity: You have so much to offer the world. And, I challenge you all to, to think about what’s holding you back for making that impact or whatever. Now, I also tend to think in grand scale. Okay. So, the work that we do is so personal. And not everybody wants to be out there making an app.

[00:27:43] Not everybody wants to be the advocate and the promoter or to serve thousands of people. The intimate details about being knee to knee with somebody, or screen to screen with somebody…It’s magical and it’s a gift and it’s humbling. And I am so appreciative of that. And I know that if I can make a difference in one life, I feel really honored and part of that, a greater piece.

[00:28:12] So I guess what I’m trying to stress is it’s figuring out your North star. And aiming towards that. And you have all the skills and all the tools within you, and now outside of you, to access to do whatever you desire to do and to change the world. And make it a better place. So I think, if I could leave with that, that, that would be it.

[00:28:40] Linzy: Yeah. Beautiful takeaway. Amity, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. This was a very inspiring wrap up to a conversation about tech and therapy. For folks who are interested in learning more about you, learning how to work with you, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:28:57] Amity: Oh, please, please, please come find me at clinical career collective. I created a professional development company for us to tech up and care wide. Get out into the world. And I run an e course that is called Do This First, where you learn over the course of seven days, all about the nuts and bolts and the foundations of business, and then I throw in and I sprinkle in a bunch of this new technology that’s coming online for you.

[00:29:29] Linzy: Wonderful. Okay. So we’ll put the link to that in the show notes and thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today, Amity.

[00:29:35] Amity: Thank you for having me. Great conversation.

[00:29:38] I so appreciated Amity’s optimism and also realism, that this tech is happening, whether we like it or not, so the importance of us being at the table. And it does bring me back to something that I often come back to when it comes to all of these facets of business, which is, it is about being with.

[00:30:10] Linzy: Right? Being curious. These tools are out there. Are there tools that could be helpful to you in your practice? Are there technologies that could help your practice? Do things end up hindering instead? How can we use the tools that exist in ethical ways? Not everything is going to be for everyone. And if it’s not broken, you don’t need to fix it, right?

[00:30:27] Like if you love taking your notes by hand, and you have files in your filing cabinet full of written notes, and that works for you. There’s no reason to change it. But if you are finding that there are sticking points, problems that can be solved, you know, it gets me thinking about, in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners, we end up talking about systems and doing system audits, and talking about the questions of what could be automated, what could be delegated?

[00:30:49] How do you take certain tasks off your plate so you’re able to focus on the areas where you really have an impact? And obviously tech helps hugely with this. It helps us automate. It helps our clients book themselves online. It helps them change their own appointments. So we don’t have to email back and forth.

[00:31:03] There’s AI tools to help you write your notes. There’s all of these things, but being curious about what is helpful to you, what aligns with you, what feels good, what doesn’t? But not turning a blind eye to what’s out there, but really looking at it, with wide open eyes and discerning what could be helpful for you to practice, and what do you want to leave to the wayside.

[00:31:22] But I do also love Amity’s call to action that if you do feel called to be part of this technology and be part of these conversations, there’s lots of ways that you can do that. And you are probably sitting on a bunch of expertise that would also make a great technological tool that would help to make a great app, right, or could be integrated with some of these biofeedback tools, for instance, to really help folks in this world.

[00:31:46] So also another area there that you can have a bigger impact in the world, if that’s something that you feel called to. So lots, lots of interesting pieces to chew on from this conversation today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you might also enjoy some of my freebies. If you head over to moneynutsandbolts.Com, we have a resources page with lots of free resources. We’ve got some mini courses, we’ve got guides for almost anything private practice, finance related that might be challenging you. We have things on mindset and taxes and paychecks, giving yourself a regular salary. So head over to money, nuts and bolts.

[00:32:22] com and check out the resources tab, to grab yourself some beautiful free resources to keep yourself moving on this money journey. You can also follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts, and you can watch this episode on YouTube. I keep saying it at the end. I should say at the beginning, but I’m saying at the end of this one, so you can remember for the next episode, all of our episodes are also on YouTube.

[00:32:44] So you can always check them out on video if you want to see our facial expressions. And if you want to see me drink a bunch of tea, which I always do during podcast recordings, and all of the hours of the day, you can do that on YouTube. Thank you so much for joining me today.