How are you investing your money for retirement? In this practical financial episode, Linzy and Kaci dig into what it looks like to wisely invest our money as private practitioners so that our money can grow for us.
“Money is an empty symbol, just like any other symbol. It’s what you decide to put into it. And I think for me, at least, money represents space. Can I have space for myself? Can I have space for the things I want?”
Jenn is a relational, psychodynamic oriented, attachment-based loving, Jungian concept adoring, and existential thinking psychotherapist based in the DC Metro area. In addition to her clinical work, Jenn partners with psychotherapists who want to market with depth, not just offer quick solutions to get people in the door. She is passionate about dismantling the obstacles that get in the way of people exploring their own psyches, of which a core one is that depth-psychotherapists struggle to market themselves in congruent, compelling ways.
In This Episode…
How can we consider the negative aspects of money and capitalism while also continuing to operate within those constraints to grow larger and to have a more positive impact?
In this discussion, Linzy and Jenn dig into what it means to do your own inner work when it comes to reaching your financial goals and growing your business. Listen in to hear the last episode of season 2 where Jenn and Linzy explore so many fascinating topics related to the work we all need to do as we grow our practices and increase our financial goals.
Get Jenn’s free guide: “Diagnosis Struggles with Marketing: Discover Five Ways Your Copy is a Symptom, not the Problem” where you’ll discover the underlying reasons marketing has failed you in the past and how to begin to recover from your marketing resistance disorder.
Visit Jenn’s website: https://therapyforthinkers.com/
And follow her on Instagram @athinkersguide
Free workshop: Setting Enough Aside for Taxes (in 5 Easy Steps)
A FREE workshop that teaches private practice therapists how to teel totally calm about your private practice finances knowing you have more than enough in the bank to make tax time a breeze!
In this pre-recorded online workshop, I teach you:
Jenn [00:00:05] Money is an empty symbol, just like any other symbol, it’s what you decide to put into it. And I think for me, at least, money represents space. Can I have space for myself? Can I have space for the things I want?
Linzy [00:00:29] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. So today is our final episode in season two. It is hard to believe, but season two is coming to an end. This is our final episode, and we’re going to take a little break over, probably a month or two, and then we’ll be back at it in a little while. I love, love, love doing this podcast, and I also appreciate having seasons so that we have space to breathe and line up all of our guests for the next season. This is very much part of my kind of sensitive nature or not having endless energy to set it up this way so that we can be nice and grounded and putting out episodes that we feel really good about in the podcast. So look for season three coming in a little while, but for now, our last episode of season two. So today’s podcast guest is Jenn Fredette. Jenn is a deep thinker, she’s a mac and cheese eater, she shared in her bio. She does depth psychotherapy, and she’s also a marketing consultant who helps therapists who longed for more in their life and practice than the status quo. Jenn is a grad of my very first time that I ran the Money Skills For Therapists course back in 2018. She was part of the beta course, which we talk about just a little bit in our interview today, and Jenn is a deep thinker above all, which is one of the things I really appreciate about her. She has a knowledge of mythology and spirituality and just an approach to information that I really appreciate. She’s very much like a bookie kind of human, which I love in this day and age when so many of us are always moving so fast all the time. I feel like she has this real depth in the way that she thinks about and approaches things. And today, we dig in to the challenge of being the default person for everything when you are a parent and a therapist and just a woman in the world. We talk about what money means for her and thinking about the meanings that we attribute to money and what it can do for us. And then we get into the importance of doing your own personal work as you’re growing your practice and maybe even expanding your practice and expanding the amount of money that you accumulate or that runs through your practice and therefore the impact that you have. The importance of doing our personal work and the negative impacts that can come when we don’t do our personal work, while we’re also growing our presence in the world through our businesses. Here’s Jenn Fredette. All right, Jenn, welcome to the podcast.
Jenn [00:03:35] Thanks for having me, Linzy, I’m so excited to talk with you today.
Linzy [00:03:38] I am excited, too. So, Jenn, to give relationship context to folks listening. We’ve known each other since 2018. I believe you were in the very first cohort of Money Skills For Therapists.
Jenn [00:03:50] I absolutely was. I’ve been around. I bought a scanner and expensed it as a business expense, and I still use that scanner and it delights me. So, thanks for helping me get a tax break on that.
Linzy [00:04:03] You mean, like from taking the course, you’ve got a scanner to scan your receipts?
Jenn [00:04:06] Oh yes. Yes, yes.
Linzy [00:04:08] And Jenn, your space that you occupy and I feel like are like carving out and evolving is you’re a depth psychotherapist. You are a deep thinker of all kinds. You have an awesome podcast of your own, A Thinkers Guide. And I’m very excited to have you on the show because when I think about just kind of like thoughtful, informed, someone who knows mythology, which I could not claim to know, I think of Jenn Fredette. And also as a bonus, you also teach marketing to therapists, which we’ll talk about. So you kind of I feel like you’ve got your finger in a few metaphorical pots.
Jenn [00:04:41] I love that idea. The image that just came to mind is like having a really generous spice cabinet of like, where there’s like lots of things I can pull from. It just depends on what dish do I want to cook up today?
Linzy [00:04:54] Yes. Absolutely, yes. So with that, I’m curious, Jenn, coming from like the schools that you are, schools of deep thoughts. What have you been thinking about lately when it comes to therapists and money?
Jenn [00:05:08] You know, it’s interesting. I have – we were talking about how I have a young daughter and we still don’t have child care yet. And I just getting over the stomach flu. It was like celebrating last night by catching up on work. Just, I don’t know something I should be celebrating. But it was like, Oh, this is amazing, I get to stay up. And I stayed up till midnight, which was a terrible idea because the baby wakes up at like 6:30 and at like 6:45, where I’m like, All right, she’s up. I have to get up with her. I’m like, dragging myself to the bathroom to wash my hands, put in my contacts. I thought, You know, it really fucking sucks to be the default. There’s so much in my life and I have an amazing partner who if I said to him, like, dude, I stayed up very unwisely till the night last night writing emails to my list. Could you please get up the baby? He still would, but I still need to breastfeed her. I’m still going to be awake for some portion. Becoming a parent has really showed me in how many ways I operate as default in business, as therapist, as a partner, as a woman in all of these ways. And I’ve been thinking a lot about the things I hear from the healers that I work with who also operate as default, right? That I got to do this, I got to do that. Like, How am I going to fit all of these things into an – I don’t know, like, what should I do? There’s not a sense that there’s a lot of help or ease of like, who can you rely on?
Linzy [00:06:35] Right, and when you say default, you mean it’s you? You’re the one who’s going to be taking care of x y z?
Jenn [00:06:40] Yes.
Linzy [00:06:41] And wearing this hat in so many different areas of your life, being the default person?
Jenn [00:06:46] Right, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t have help, but the default means you have to then opt for somebody else to give you help.
Linzy [00:06:54] Yeah.
Jenn [00:06:55] Does that make sense?
Linzy [00:06:56] It does. It does, yes. Like the work is yours to disperse. It’s on your plate unless you do the work of putting it on somebody else’s plate.
Jenn [00:07:04] Yes. Which is sometimes more work than actually just doing the work. And so then people are like, Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I certainly do that. Like to go back to this Morning example, my husband absolutely would have gotten up with the baby. He would have taken that on, and he does some mornings. But mornings are not his jam. And so often the way we’ve worked it out is I don’t have to worry about the 5 to 6:30 piece, that’s always his time. And I can just sit and do whatever I’m going to do. That’s not my default. That’s his default. All the other times, though, I have to ask and he’s like, Well, what does she do? Like, how do I do this? And like, Where’s this and where’s that? And do I have to feed the cats? I don’t really want to keep the cats today. Can you feed the cats when you get up? But there’s all these other pieces that end up stacking that it’s just easier to do. It’s just easier to do, for me. And I’ve been thinking about this – you asked specifically about like therapist and money, that there are times that I see therapists not investing in themselves and that it might actually be that they’re spending a lot of money to try to learn, to try to like, do it themselves, like do it yourself to success without necessarily investing in the help to literally like take things out of their brain and like, let it live with somebody else.
Linzy [00:08:28] Right. Yeah. Yeah, and that’s an interesting thing because when you were saying how, that for you personally it can sometimes be a struggle to, like, outsource. I feel like this is something I’ve very been consciously working on over the last few years. I was just talking about this with a friend this week and I had the the pleasure of using my money to have a spa getaway with a very good friend, going to like the water baths, the Scandinavian spa, like hot pools, cold pools, sauna. It was wonderful and I was telling her how something that I’ve definitely overcome in the last few years is two things. One is the idea that I can do it better than other people. Mostly, I can’t. What I’ve learned is like, I figured out the things where it’s like, This is my gift. This is my own genius. This is where I shine. And like in my business, these are the areas where I am – it’s my business. Like, I make these decisions, these strategic like top level vision decisions about who we are, what our values are, what are our general strategies for going for. But in terms of actually carrying out the work, I have consciously built a team of people who are way better than me at the things that I have outsourced to them, like things that I would struggle with are things that they do with ease. That’s one piece that comes to mind for me is like, I think that sometimes and I’m curious, like your thoughts on where some this comes from for us, like is it conditioning? Is it patriarchy? Is it perfectionism? Like why we often find it so hard? Because I know it’s something I’ve worked very hard to unlearn and shift. And so it’s been kind of like, Oh, do to realize I think I did it. Outsourcing is actually now my natural way of going to which, of course, we need some amount of money to be able to outsource. And that’s always something that, like I talk about with with students and therapists, is like that return on investment. Being able to think through where your money is going to serve you well to outsource because it’s not like we always have like a $20000 outsource pot, just sitting there every month, we have to make choices. But then the other thing that I think about and this might be getting like a little bit too close to the bone, but you know, the concept of weaponizing competence.
Jenn [00:10:18] Yes.
Linzy [00:10:19] It just came to me as you were talking about your partner asking you, like, what do I have to do this to have to do this? Like, sometimes we do get pushback from people at our lives because it’s easy for them, easier for them if we are the default. That actually does benefit them unconsciously or consciously. It’s easier for them if we just do the things that we’ve always done.
Jenn [00:10:36] Well and it’s interesting too, we actually, he and I had this conversation maybe about six months ago, and one of the things I valued was that he was able to like, Yeah, there are some places where I do play that out. But also recognizing places where I also sometimes weaponize my own competence against myself. And he didn’t put it that way. He’s this much more gentle. But there is a place that he will say, but Jenn, if you would just say, like, just come, let me know you want me to take the baby and like, Oh, but I don’t. But I don’t want to. I need to. But I don’t want to, because there’s something. And I do think that for me, it’s a lot of internalized stuff that I picked up in childhood. I mean, not just in terms of the patriarchy and white supremacy and how they teach us that we ought to be in the roles we have to play. But I grew up in a community that amplified those messages that there was really a sense that I was not meant to have a job outside of the home, that I was meant to be a full time stay at home parent who attended the harth. It actually comes up sometimes and I will go for a walk. Not so much with the baby now, but before we would be walking and he’s taller than I am. But he would slow his pace down to crawl and I would still fall a couple paces behind him because there was something ingrained in me when I was younger. You let the men go before you, literally and metaphorically. So yes, I think some is his stuff, but some of it is mine as well. I think sometimes, at least in our dynamic, what can happen is I end up playing victim. Look at all the things that I have to hold, look at all the things I’m doing, l’m so burned out.
Linzy [00:12:23] Yes.
Jenn [00:12:23] And I’m the one making this decision. There’s plenty of shit that also happens that it’s like, that’s not on me. Like, that happened, it’s hard. Like, we have to figure out how. To drive us back, you were asking like where some of this comes from? I do think at least in mental health training, I would imagine in other caregiving, especially like more hands on female dominated spaces, that there is a sense of, you’re supposed to be the giving tree.
Linzy [00:12:52] Yes.
Jenn [00:12:53] And like, Just just keep giving more of yourself. And wow doesn’t that feel good?
Linzy [00:12:58] Right, Giving is a gift in itself.
Jenn [00:13:00] Yes. And here’s what’s so tricky, though, because then it’s like, no, it’s not like it’s terrible. Like, Hold yourself and like, I don’t know, be more like the men?
Linzy [00:13:09] Right. Yes, right. We can get that backlash. Opposite messaging. Yeah.
Jenn [00:13:14] But giving does feel good. And so like, how do you then walk that balance of OK, I don’t actually have to be the default in everything, which in and of itself is its own kind of power and control. And you’re asking about perfectionism. I think perfectionism is just, the move to control what you can when everything around you feels uncontrollable. What are you thinking about on this, Linzy?
Linzy [00:13:39] Yeah, I mean, that’s an interesting thing because it makes me think too about martyrdom, right? And like that – and also just this narrative busy, we’re all busy, we’re all so busy, right. That is in the water now. It’s like as a culture. And I notice myself using that sometimes as a reason that I’m not getting back to a certain person or whatever. Although I know obviously we prioritize things. But there is this culture and narrative of busyness, and I see this, especially for therapists who like ourselves, are also parents where it’s like you’re busy all day. Usually you’ve overpacked your schedule because most therapists that I work with, unless they’ve actually made really specific choices, you default into working a little bit too much or a lot too much all the time. So you’re busy at work. There’s this outlay you’re giving, giving, giving and then you get home. And then there’s this like family waiting for your attention and then you give whatever’s left. Sometimes resentful because you’re already kind of done for the day, but your day is not done and then you go to bed. If you’re me, you scroll and tick tock for far too long and then you go to bed and you start all over. Right. And so I think there is this way in which it’s in the culture. And I think because it’s in the culture and we’re in a caring profession, the way that it looks for us is through this like giving, caring, taking care of all the time, right? And like not just being responsible for like tasks or things that need to get done, but being responsible for emotional caregiving. People’s wellness, right? Like thinking through that client session you just had and going and doing some reading to like better serve that client the next time. It’s like constantly this, like outward facing. Yeah, I think it is tricky for people to find that balance without, as you say, shifting to the exact black and white opposite, which is like, no, it’s all for me, which also, I think is, it’s out of balance.
Jenn [00:15:23] Neither space actually gives you space, right? I was thinking, as you’re talking about how busy things are. I don’t know that I always think about myself being very busy, although I am. But it’s all the space has gotten filled out a lot of space for me. And so then it’s sort of like, do I sleep or do I stay up and have fun writing emails like, there doesn’t end up being a lot of space for us. It was just thinking about like when people like shift into that place that it’s like quite climbing the ladder, but it’s sort of like trying to reach the pinnacle of success and actually let me back up a little bit. We have known each other for a while, and I’ve hung out in this space of like watching therapists go from, Oh my gosh, I can only make like %50000 a year and that would be like, really like making it, to like I want to run like a seven figure business and like, I’m going to do all these things and like, here’s how I’m going to scale. I have a lot of social anxiety, and so I just have mostly hung out lurking, watching everybody do their stuff, the past few years. And then finally, like with the help of my coach, like, OK, I can like, come hang out with maybe some of them. It’s a really interesting I don’t deserve anything. Therefore, I just have to like, take what I get to, actually, I can have something. I’m worth this amount, I’m worth this amount, I’m worth this amount. This is something I just, I’m always hearing people talk about charging what they’re worth, which drives me crazy because I don’t know how one can quantify that. Like, I charge two fifty an hour for my therapy clients, I charge way more for consulting now. But that has nothing to do with my worth. It has to do with the expertise that I might be able to offer. It has to do with the space that I’m going to hold. And then I watch people transmit this, I’m going to charge what I’m worth, I’m going to make what I’m worth. Then there’s this sense of those who don’t make as much, are not worth as much. And then there’s this dignity piece. It doesn’t actually matter how much money you have or how much money you’re charging. There’s not dignity for you or the people that you’re working with. Does that make?
Linzy [00:17:44] For sure. Yeah. First of all, I mean, it’s not about what your words. I think the way I think of it is you’re selling a service. What is the worth of your service and the worth of your service is like what somebody is willing to pay you for that service. And there’s a lot of factors that go into what somebody is willing to pay you for a service, right? And part of that is about the learning that you’ve done, the natural skills you’re bringing to it, the experience you’re able to share with them. But also part of it is just how much you’ve been able to convey to them the value of it. How do you set up the structure so that they get maximum value out of that time together? You know, there’s so many components into what you can charge for a service that people will pay sustainably. Yeah, what I hear and what I noticed myself is that I do think that we end up accidentally falling into like capitalist logic, where it’s like more money equals better. If you have more money, therefore you’re also better and if you have less money, therefore you’re worse. Right? And I think that if we actually spelled it out that clearly people would be like, No, no, no, that’s not what I think, that’s not how I feel, but I do think that we could end up slipping into that sometimes when we get so focused on our fees and what we charge and what we’re making and like, I’m always very suspicious of that. That top line number, the seven figure business being a numbers person, I know that that actually really means nothing about how much you’re actually getting paid, how much your team is getting paid. Is it a quality work place? Is the quality of work still the same? Are your clients getting quality of experience? That means that your business is sustainable, like there’s so many other things in that mix that get missed when we go for that kind of like a vanity metric off the top. But I do think that, yeah, we end up accidentally buying into the things that we were suspicious of. Rightly so, which is that money determines your worth.
Jenn [00:19:20] I love actually hearing you talk about it as a vanity metric. I’m showing all my vulnerabilities with you today, but I sit on a couch about a year ago. I was like, I just want to rent a seven figure business. I think that would be fun and interesting to try to figure out how to do. And she’s like, ok cool like, let’s talk about it. And so I’ve had it in the back of my mind of like, wouldn’t this be cool? Interesting to do? And I am – I’ve done a lot of school. There’s like, Oh, that’s right, this is like trying to get the A-plus, the best all around student.
Linzy [00:19:51] A-plus in business world.
Jenn [00:19:52] Yeah, yeah. Like, there is something kind of meaningless about it, which actually in a lot of ways is really lovely because and if you’re willing to be conscious and be thoughtful about it, you can bring the meaning you want to bring. And if you remain unconscious, if you’re not willing to examine your own biases, the own stuff that has seeped into your bones. Audre Lorde says that you can’t rebuild the master’s house using the master’s tools. And I think that’s true, and I think sometimes we take it so literally like, Well, what does that mean? I can’t have money, that I can’t have all of this? But maybe actually what it means is you get to show up, that you show up and you choose to use your own tools that have been diminished or invalidated that instead of giving parts of yourself away, you nurture those things that are actually giving. Does that make sense?
Linzy [00:20:48] Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I mean, what it makes me think about is, how do you still strive to take up space? Don’t fall into that narrative of like, well, you need to be small because you’re a woman, because you’re a person of color, because you’re disabled, because your family historically has not had money. Therefore, stay in your spot, right? Don’t claim any power. How do we avoid that? And don’t buy into that narrative, but at the same time, be ambitious, build cool shit, you know, like build a business you’re excited about. That is a reflection of your values, right? And the things that are meaningful to you. Because I think that’s where the risk can be, that we sometimes get lost as we do start to get so focused on like those numbers or whatever that a plus that we’re striving for, now that we’re no longer being given a plus as we make up our own pluses to go for. How do you still have like a meaningful values based business or a business that reflects your values and kind of amplifies your values in the world and not fall into those traps of just kind of, money equals good?
Jenn [00:21:49] We talked before we started recording. I had offered some things that we could talk about today, and you were like reading them back to me. I was like, Wow, those are really hard questions.
Linzy [00:22:01] The questions you suggested for yourself, just for the listeners who are listening.
Jenn [00:22:04] Yes, and this is not a question. I suggest myself. I was like, Oh gosh, we should have stuck with my questions, Linzy. That’s a hard one.
Linzy [00:22:10] Mine are harder?
Jenn [00:22:12] I like it. I say this often to therapy clients and I started to say to my consulting clients to like, Ooh, I have many thoughts about that. Now let me sort through. Like, where do we go? What I often think about is how we need to do our own work of healthy entitlement, as opposed to continuing to fawn, flee, like, have trauma responses, essentially to those who take up more space than it’s necessary for them. I’ve been off and on watching the confirmation hearings for the newest Supreme Court judge. It’s like watching an abused situation play out. And, here are these people taking up so much space, so much privilege and not having boundaries. That just isn’t right, isn’t fair. And so part of – I think what we actually need to do is have some healthy entitlement for what do you actually need and want? When I sit with clients as well as my students sometimes like, well, I don’t really know what I need, like I have my basic blah blah blah blah blah needs that say, Well, what would you want for your clients? What would you want for your kids? What would you want for your partner? What is the baseline for other people? OK, that is not the baseline for you. And I think that’s the first piece was the first very random abstract response. My second thought was building a business has felt a lot like gardening to me, I think you are a gardener.
Linzy [00:23:34] I am, yes.
Jenn [00:23:35] I am not a gardener. I kill everything. I’m not allowed to touch our house plants. I have these big dreams and like, I can imagine that. And so when my partner and I talk about, like starting a vegetable garden, he’s like, How just feels really overwhelming to like do the planning? And I’m like, you know, I’ll do the planning. Like, I would love that, you do the actual like planting of things or like monitoring me because I’m great at like a big project. But maintenance is not my stack. And when I think about building a business, I think we have to go to the place of like, OK, what works for you? Like, how do you grow things in your life? Are you a big project kind of person? Are you great at maintenance? Are you somewhere in between? And then like, you’re talking about start to hire people to do the other things for you, right?
Linzy [00:24:28] Yeah. And around that piece of hiring, like something that I think about a lot Jenn, thinking about basically, like how do we do good with the power we accumulate? That’s a big part of it, right? Because money is powerful and money is power. And what I’m hearing is sometimes you’re supporting folks, and so am I, who don’t feel even kind of entitled in a healthy way to what is more than the minimum right? Like we – they’ve kind of carved out a little spot in the world for themself and like, well, this is it. And I mean, it’s fine. So I’ll just stay here, right and you with that little bit of perspective can see like, you could do better than fine. What would be good? You know, so there’s that end of the spectrum. But then I think on the other end, when we do start to build successful practices, either because we have like a premium fee and we really hone in our niche and like clients are flowing in and we’re able to start offering other offers, you know, that bring more money into our world. Or we start a group practice because we’re great at supervising people. And, you know, we start to attract more and more clients to work with these peers that we’ve hired. What I think about, too, is how in accumulating that power, that flow of energy through your business, that money. You also then get to make decisions around what kind of place is this to work? Is this a good place to work or is this just like replicating the same kind of capitalist patterns where it’s like, I don’t really care who you are. I don’t care that it’s your birthday today, happy birthday to you anyways keep working, right? Which is like, we just today we have a new administrator who started with us a few months ago and we found out that it was her birthday yesterday, and the way that her life is set up is like they’d be celebrating late at night because her boyfriend works till very late at night. And when we realize that we just like gave her a day off because like, why would we make her come into work after, like partying? Because she’s young and full of life? Good for her. I’m probably a little jealous. It kind of like blew her mind that we just proactively gave her a day off and recognition her birthday because that’s not how we’re used to being treated. I certainly was not treated like that. You know, when I was at the beginning of my career, people weren’t helping me proactively think about what would be a really nice way to spend my birthday. But we get to do that when we have accumulated the monetary power to be able to employ people and have help. And I think that’s something that is really powerful and that we can forget sometimes when we get to the other end of that spectrum and we become more entitled to now we’re going for those vanity metrics, rather than thinking about like, Oh my gosh, this workplace impacts 12 people’s lives every day. What do I want their lives to be like? How do I want to make their lives better by them working for me?
Linzy [00:26:46] I think a lot of the reason that we have people in the mental health space and perhaps in other helping professions who really are shitty bosses and exploitive businesses is because they’re not fucking doing their work. That’s what I keep coming back to again and again. It’s actually one of the things I love so much about my marketing consulting piece. I’m sort of just making it up as I go along, and I’m discovering by being really clear who I’d love to work with, work with people like you Linzy, like thoughtful, grounded, who do their inner work. They go to therapy, they engage in all of these other ways to understand themselves more and more and more. And those are the people I keep wanting to be like, yes, expand, like more entitlement. Like have more because I can trust that they’re going to show up and really treat the people they work with as partners and certainly hold, like the boundary for their boss or with their therapist, but treat them like people and tap into empathy, which is one of our greatest skills. And I think if you don’t do your work, you get calcified and it’s easier to try to meet unconscious, unmet needs through playing out old stories, just with new people.
Linzy [00:28:03] Mm hmm. That is so true. Yeah. So it’s like this combination of doing your work and then also letting yourself build and going for what you really want, that can create this beautiful impact. You’re operating from a very different space when it’s not about making up for unmet needs, right? When it’s about creating something wonderful in the world. That’s a very different space, than making up for never feeling good enough or trying to accumulate endless amounts of money because you never feel secure. Jenn, thinking about all of these things then, like from your perspective, I’m curious what is then kind of the the value of having your money game in order or having your business really working for you or or being rich or accumulating wealth? Like what is the value of these things from your perspective?
Linzy [00:28:51] When I was 13 – and my parents have very warped relationship with money, but my dad said to me, Well, if you want to have a car someday, you’re going to have to earn it. And I took him quite literally. And so I started babysitting, worked at McDonald’s, which is the best job I’ve ever had. It was so fun and like, there was always stuff to be busy and then you got to engage with people. So I worked all all through my adolescence and saved about 50 percent, which is like nobody, except the fire people are saving 50 percent of their overall income. But I saved all this money and I bought my car and I grew up in a really highly controlled community. And when I sat in that car, I thought, I can go anywhere I want. I didn’t go anywhere spectacular, went down the street and got a lobster roll and a raspberry lime Ricky. But I could go anywhere that I wanted. I remember at that moment thinking, Oh, I feel rich, like I own my own car. I have freedom. I bought freedom with all of that work, which is a narrative. I still have to unwind in myself that you don’t just have to work hard to get what you need and want. But when you ask me, like, what does it mean to be rich? I think about like, what are those things I really need right now? And I actually keep thinking like to be rich would be to have all the time I want with my kid to get to still see my clients, to still get to do this work because it’s meaningful and like rich to me, but also to go and sit in a different car that is slowly dying and I’ll have to get a new one, probably this year. But just go sit in my car and do fuckin nothing, not have to talk to anybody. Like maybe go to Arby’s and get a shake, like that would feel good and rich. And part of it is a space in life, I don’t get a lot of time to myself. There’s a lot of holding of other people. And so the idea of like, I could just be in my car, and my car could hold me for a little while, like it’s actually made me tear up a little bit like I really actually think I need to go get a shake this afternoon.
Linzy [00:30:59] Sounds like it. Yes. I encourage this behavior. Yeah, I mean, it sounds a lot like having that money, it gives possibility. In some ways, maybe a little bit of escape from whatever’s difficult at the time. Right? Like, you’re an early parenthood right now. Some time alone is just like the best thing you can imagine, right? When you were younger, being able to be not where you were and be somewhere else was the best thing you could imagine. So it gives us options.
Jenn [00:31:24] I worked with you 2018. I was in your beta, which is like this big, beautiful, amazing course now. I was lucky because I got lots of access to you. And one of the things I remember really sold me, you talked about. Yeah. And like, you can make sure that you save for maternity leave. I was like, one can do that in private practice? Like that is an option? Like, I just thought I kind of have to pay my taxes and pay myself and like, somehow, maybe it will work out. And I joined your class because I am a straight A chaser, like I wanted to do well. I wanted my CPA to be proud of me and my bookkeeping skills. And when I realized like, Oh, actually, learning to manage my money can allow me to build the kind of life that I want. I actually don’t have to manage my money. I mean, I still manage my money in some ways, but I have a bookkeeper, I have a CPA.
Linzy [00:32:17] You don’t have to do the labor.
Jenn [00:32:18] No, I’m a financial planner who gives me suggestions of what to do. And so when it came to the place that I was pregnant, I had a maternity leave fund and I got to take as long as I wanted. And I got to come back part time and I got to come back because I missed my clients, not because I was like, I’ve gotta make money. Money is an empty symbol, just like any other symbol. It’s what you decide to put into it. And I think for me, at least, money represents space. Can I have space for myself? Can I have space for the things I want?
Linzy [00:32:55] I hear that and I think what I’m hearing for you, is like that space is not just like, I don’t want to work anymore. I want space from work. Because I think that sometimes the fantasy that we can have to when we’re like kind of more of the burnout side of things like, I just won’t be a therapist anymore, I’ll just cook all day. We kind of fantasize what this escape is, but I’m hearing for you. Part of that is like, there is a real balance like, you love the work that you do that nurtures a part of you. And then also, it gives you the opportunity to spend as much time with your daughter as you want, right? So you get both of those things. It’s not an either or, but it allows you to get the right mix of kind of stimulation into your world. I love that. I love that. So, Jenn, I know marketing is your jam, which I so appreciate because it’s so not my jam. So I’m so glad that for people like you out there helping us with marketing. What do you see as the connection between marketing and money?
Jenn [00:33:47] If money is what holds the space, in fact, let’s say money is maybe the container like the consult room that allows you to do the work, there’s enough safety there. Marketing is message. Marketing is the communication. Marketing is the relationship.
Linzy [00:34:01] Yeah. And so when you’re marketing, then are you kind of creating those right fit relationships or are you putting it out in the world? Spell it out for me a little more.
Jenn [00:34:11] So I think marketing is really – it’s sort of like money, like we can come up with lots of like, I got to do all these things, and therefore now I can make money or have money or money can do these things for me. Marketing is really just about relationship. You can’t have a relationship with people if you stay hidden away in your room and nobody ever gets to know you like, that’s going to be really hard to form a relationship. And you get to show up in different ways. You get to choose who you want to be, in some ways. We can all have ways that we feel comfortable, like the social personas that we wear and very much, I mean, that’s what marketing is, is being able to show up in your persona as authentically as you can manage. If you asked me earlier, like, ooh, would this cut too close to the bone? And I was like, no, literally I just show up sometimes, maybe too naked when I’m doing kind of like, this is sort of a marketing activity for me. I get to come hang out with you, share with people who I am, what I do. I’m not here to sell people on doing anything one way or the other. I’m here to show people like, Hey, this is who I am, and I don’t want to call people to action like, you must do all of these things in order to be successful, but to offer like, Hey, if you want to do some healing, marketing is a really good path that you can start to really get to know yourself and what keeps you blocked from really showing up and being visible.
Linzy [00:35:41] So there’s a lot of self-worth that can happen.
Jenn [00:35:43] Always.
Linzy [00:35:43] As you’re working on your marketing. Yeah, that’s so interesting. And thinking about this, Jen, because I’m somebody who has, you know, I’m sure I could pay you a lot of money to help me with my own blocks with my marketing because I’m a very private person. So it’s not in my nature to really share who I am. And these are conversations that I’m having in my life. Like, literally as recently as yesterday, I sent a good friend of mine, a message about marketing and kind of my blocks, the things that make it hard for me. But something that I do think about, we chatted a little bit before we went on mic about swearing. You asked me if this was a swearing friendly space and I said, Yes, it absolutely is. And that’s actually something, I recently got some feedback from somebody that they didn’t like my cussing, which is like, funny. I remember Laura Long talking about this so long ago, and my response was the similar to what I remember, I saw Laura Long say. Which is kind of like, I’m probably actually not the right person for you then. You know, because something that if I think about myself and I was reflecting this this morning, I do swear, I don’t swear excessively. I don’t just pepper sentences with swear words. But even as a clinician, I would swear with my clients if my clients swear, I’m going to swear back with them to join them in that space, right? And so that’s actually kind of part of my authenticity. And if I did try to hide that and never put myself out there swearing in things that could be marketing activities, I’m kind of not really giving them the full picture of what the experience of working with me is like. Right. So it’s actually in a way, it’s part of my marketing. Is swearing and letting people know I do kind of authentically express myself like this from time to time.
Jenn [00:37:06] There was a study several years ago that actually said that when people in positions of authority swear like, their trustworthiness goes up. Because it is seen as something that is, maybe that it is more like a private thing. And so then if you’re willing to do it on a public stage or in a public arena, it makes you more relatable. It’s interesting that you say like, Well, and I’m a very private person, which in a way is its own defense. I don’t have to do that because here I fit this archetype of, like, very private. One of the things I do with my students and actually I have a free offer that your audience might like. Really like, let’s break down those blocks of what are you actually playing out when you say, I’m a very private person or I don’t do self-disclosure because that could like rupture the therapeutic relationship in the future, blah blah blah blah blah. That there is a way that we’re trying to guard our own pain as opposed to letting it breathe, like letting it get some air. I don’t know that you always have to, like, do the most raw thing in your marketing. Sometimes if you can examine like, what is it that is holding you back? Like, what is the thing? Like, I will not do that. It’s like, Oh, what am I avoiding in myself? That play is like something I just cannot do. Like, how can I bring more play into my own life and actually be willing to show up and like, look incompetent? So I’d be curious what your privacy might actually be?
Linzy [00:38:42] I’ll take it to therapy. Don’t worry about me.
Jenn [00:38:43] Oh, good, good. Good.
Linzy [00:38:45] So, Jenn, for folks who want to find you. Where is the the best social media place for them to find you? Or are you really hanging out in a few?
Jenn [00:38:53] Tic-Tok is my – they can come follow me on Tik Tok if they want. It’s like a sandbox for me. Like it’s play therapy. Like come hang out, but I am not consistent or regular on that platform. I regularly show up on Instagram @athinkersguide. So Instagram’s probably the best place to come and connect. I aim to respond to people’s DMs, so if you’re listening, feel free to drop me a DM or come hang out with me on a live where Linzy is not here to keep me grounded. And so I just ramble about what’s in my head.
Linzy [00:39:24] And then you mentioned a free offer, so if folks want to get more in your world, what do you got for them?
Jenn [00:39:29] You talking about your privacy. I thought oh, I got to tell Linzy’s people about my Diagnosing your Struggles with Marketing, it’s a workbook. But those of you who will get to know me know that I do not do anything systematically. So it’s like a ten page, like journaling prompts, like let’s dig deep and like, really get into what is your marketing actually say about what’s going on underneath? And because I’m a therapist, I have five different interventions to help you start to work through each of those places that you really get stuck. They can check that out at a athinkersguide.com/dx.
Linzy [00:40:06] Great perfect, and we’ll put the link to that in the show notes, so it’s easy for them to get to. I love thoughtful, meaty freebies, so thank you for putting that out there. And thank you, Jenn. It’s been lovely talking you today.
Jenn [00:40:17] Same, same.
Linzy [00:40:32] In my conversation with Jenn, this piece about the importance of doing your own work that she brought up just really sticks out to me and really rings true. It makes me reflect on some of the behaviors or impulses I’ve sometimes seen in myself when there’s something that I’m trying to live out through my business that is not really about, you know, the work that I’m doing or or the money, you know, when we kind of attach other meaning to our business because of stuff that we have worked on personally. It also makes me think of behaviors of therapists and other business owners who I love, who sometimes I see that the thing that’s driving them is not really something that’s balanced, you know, it’s more about an unmet need. As Jen would put it, I think there’s so much wisdom to that. Maybe this should be a reminder to all of us to keep doing our personal work. And if we’re noticing that something in our business is feeling really anxiety producing or we’re feeling really rigid around a certain thing, it’s probably not about our business or our private practice. And it is a chance to step back and be curious about ourselves and work on things so that the impact that our businesses have in the world can be aligned with our values and can align with our politics and making the world better, rather than what can sometimes be a bit of an unbalanced force. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. That’s where we put out our practical and emotional mindset money content all the time, and that’s where you can keep in touch with us between podcast seasons as well before we’re back in season three. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. That is the best way for people to find us. I hope that you all have a wonderful month or two. If you’re at the end of season two and there’s no season three yet, I look forward to connecting with you all again when season three comes around soon.
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