Meet Felicia Keller Boyle

 [00:00:00] Felicia: Rather than pretending as if there’s not a power dynamic, where can we engage with the power that we have in a way that is helpful and not harmful? You know, the reality is that we do have responsibilities in our practices as the owners, whether it’s solo or group practice, that are our responsibilities.

[00:00:22] And in my opinion, we should not be trying to make those other people’s responsibilities.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question. How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Felicia Keller Boyle. This is Felicia’s second appearance on the podcast, and today we dig into group practice. So Felicia is a coach and mentor to solo therapists but we talk on the podcast about how we’ve both increasingly been doing more and more work and giving more and more support to group practice owners.

[00:01:13] Today we talk about marketing: when you have a group practice, how do you have to market differently than when you have a solo practice? We talk about some of the ways group practice owners can get in their own way when it comes to filling up their clinicians, and how to start actually getting it so folks will want to work with somebody who is not you in your group practice.The idea of group practice owners charging more than their clinicians who work with them and, we had a little bit of a discussion slash debate, about it cause we have different thoughts about it, but I think she might have convinced me.

[00:01:44] So, you can stick around until the end to hear that part of our conversation. I so enjoy speaking with Felicia. It was a treat to be able to connect with her again today, under the guise of recording a podcast. She had lots of interesting things to say, on the marketing side of private practice.

[00:02:00] Even if you’re not a group practice owner, there’s so much in this today about the importance of clear marketing, creating clear boundaries and containers for clients. Lots here that also applies to solo practice. Here is my conversation with Felicia Keller Boyle.

[00:02:14] So Felicia, welcome back to the podcast.

[00:02:25] Felicia: Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

[00:02:28] Linzy: Yeah, one of the great things about having a podcast is it just gives me an excuse to talk to people that I like. We were just talking off mic about how it’s probably been two years since we talked last, which was not my plan at all. so it’s nice to have an excuse to just be able to chat with you and chat about the things that we’ve been working on.

[00:02:44] I think we have a lot of overlap. We’ve kind of grown in similar directions. but yeah, this is just one of the selfish reasons that I have a podcast is to talk to people like you. Yes.

[00:02:53] Felicia: I’m on the same page. I feel like I’m about to do something in my podcast coming up that is very similar, like having more guests on. It’s been so many solo episodes, but I’m also like, okay, how can I have more fun and use this as an excuse to have interesting people and I think it’s great for listeners too, because it’s sort of like you get two thought leaders in a space, two people you’re interested in hearing from, and they, you just get to eavesdrop on their coffee chat. That is just so incredibly valuable.

[00:03:22] Linzy: Yeah. It’s like conversations that we would have anyways.

[00:03:25] Felicia: Yeah!

[00:03:26] Linzy: But we’re recording them, and maybe a little bit more polished and maybe slightly less swearing. Maybe.

[00:03:30] Felicia: Mmm, yeah, maybe slightly, yeah,

[00:03:32] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:03:33] Felicia: To be seen.

[00:03:35] Linzy: Time will tell.

[00:03:36] Felicia: You’re so right, because we have been growing in similar ways. We want to talk about group practices today, because we’ve both been working more with group practice owners. I’ve been finding it super interesting.

[00:03:47] I feel like the business model is obviously way more complicated than solo practice. There’s a completely different set of problems to solve. And I’ve just been having so much fun working with group practice owners. And I know you have, too.

[00:03:59] Linzy: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And I was saying to you off mic that I wasn’t planning necessarily to work with group practice owners. It kind of evolved organically, but I’m so glad that I am. am because I find that the folks who we attract, who are group practice owners tend to be not just smart and confident and accomplished and all the things that you need to have figured out to get to the point of being able to build a group, but also are very thoughtful, and kind, and trying to solve the big problems in business, which is, how do you take care of other people while taking care of yourself?

[00:04:30] How do you build something sustainable? How do you understand which numbers matter? Which is, of course, like what I’m helping folks to understand. And it’s just such impactful work because of the ripple effect that you have when you own a business and you’re supporting a team and then those team members are supporting dozens and dozens of people is it just has such a huge impact on your community, the way that you run your group, and the decisions that you make in that space.

[00:04:55] Felicia: Absolutely. The impact is huge and the sense of responsibility and also leadership. That’s something that I talk about a lot with my group practice owners: that it’s just not the same conversation with solo practice owners, but with group practice owners, there’s this whole other element of leadership and responsibility that can be really confusing for group practice owners.

[00:05:17] I’ll be really curious to hear some of the problems that you’ve encountered in working with your clients, but yeah, group practice owners are just grappling with so much. They still want to be fantastic clinicians. They want to not exploit their employees or contractors.

[00:05:33] They are dealing with a lot of the same things solo practice owners deal with around like, where do I co-create and collaborate? And where do I just take responsibility for the decision in this area? And I feel like that’s a place where… I’m thinking of some different clients where that was a really big thing that we had to work on is, no, this is your decision.

[00:05:54] This isn’t a thing that you’re deciding on collectively. , we need you to know what to do here. So…

[00:06:00] Linzy: yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there are differences that need to happen in leadership and one of the areas that you focus on with your folks that is not so much what I spend time on with my folks is marketing. So I wanted to start by talking about marketing in group practice. What do you see is different about the way that group practice owners need to market?

[00:06:20] What are the adjustments they need to make when they move into being a group practice owner rather than just marketing a solo practice, which is probably where they started.

[00:06:27] Felicia: right. So one of the things that… Once I say it, it’s going to be so obvious, but I can’t tell you how often this actually occurs, which is: a therapist has a successful solo practice. They decide to hire clinicians, but if you go onto their website, once they’re a group practice, it’s as if they are kind of shoved other people onto the website.

[00:06:49] And a lot of the group practice owners I work with, I would say pretty much all of them, they’re at the point of expanding into a group practice because they don’t want more clients on their caseload. And yet the website is still totally focused on them. And so I think one of the main things group practice owners have to do is they have to essentially lend their clout, and their reputation to their clinicians.

[00:07:17] They have to transfer some of that trust onto their clinicians, because if they don’t do that, then they’re in this weird position where they’re like, I don’t get it. I’m having trouble filling this person’s caseload. And it’s like, well, it doesn’t look like you’re trying to fill their caseload when we go to your website, honestly, because it’s still you.

[00:07:36] And last you told me you don’t want more clients. So, what is going on here? Right? And so again, it seems so obvious. I’m sure people listening to this are like, Oh, of course. But a lot of group practice owners are thinking, well, I’ll just hire a new person, but they haven’t thought about how do I need to actually change how my business functions.

[00:07:56] Yeah. And marketing is just one part of that. I also really love talking about how the sales process is different, but that’s one of my takes on the marketing.

[00:08:05] Linzy: Yeah, it is a different brand that you’re creating. It’s not a plus one on your brand. It’s not like: Linzy plus this other person who you can see because I’m full. Yeah, but I do think that…

[00:08:16] Felicia: Messaging.

[00:08:17] Linzy: Yeah. And it’s of course natural that we do that because I think, too, that fits into a larger narrative that I see around folks who step into group practice thinking that it’s going to be easy, which is like, Oh, you’re just adding somebody who’s going to like take overload, somebody you can just send those people to.

[00:08:31] But yeah, as you say, it doesn’t work because people go to your website, they see you, they fall in love with you and then they call you and you’re like, Oh, well you can see George and they’re like, who’s George?

[00:08:39] Felicia: This other lady, this random guy named George. And they’re like, who the fuck is George? You know?

[00:08:46] Linzy: Yes. Yes.

[00:08:47] Felicia: Yeah, that is a huge issue. And so I really work with my group practice owners to see are you excited about this clinician? If someone calls the practice and wants a therapist and they say, Oh, I really wanted to work with you,

[00:09:04] can you honestly and comfortably say, you know what? I really like this person. I’ve chosen them for a reason. I really trust their work. And I would recommend that you set up an appointment with them. If you can’t say that about somebody you’ve hired, then they shouldn’t be a part of your practice. And I think a lot of group practice owners are almost trying to do both. It’s like, okay, I want to make more money, so I’m hiring someone cause I know that’s how I’ll make more money, but I feel conflicted about giving them clients, in a way, or when push comes to shove, that’s what kind of comes out.

[00:09:35] Cause it’s like, Oh wait, if you can’t fully get behind this person. Then we’ve got a bigger problem here, and they shouldn’t be a part of the practice. So you either need to check your ego and figure out what’s going on that you can’t promote this person.

[00:09:49] Linzy: Yeah,

[00:09:49] Felicia: Or, if it’s actually an issue where you don’t trust this person’s worth, then they have to go. We can’t be wishy washy about that.

[00:09:55] Linzy: Yeah, that’s really interesting, and I think that first piece is really important, the check your ego piece. Because I do think one trend amongst us therapisty types is, sometimes we’re a little full of ourselves. We would never… A little, a lot. But not in a way that would be obvious, but in a way that deep down there is a part of us that believes that we’re the only one who can do the work that we do as well as we do.

[00:10:18] And it is true that nobody does the work that you do like you do, but it doesn’t mean you’re the best one at doing that work. It just means that you’re going to be a better fit for certain clients than the person next to you, but also they’re going to be a better fit for other people. Right? But I do think that comes down to a bit of a martyr thing, a bit of a hyper independence thing.

[00:10:35] I need to fix it. I need to do it. Like being the helper, forgetting that, hey, we’re actually in a whole field full of those people. We’re in a whole field full of like the over functioning parentified child. You’re not the only one in the scene, but that piece is really, I think important for folks to reflect on.

[00:10:52] Is it true that this person isn’t as good as you at this work, or do you still somewhere have this belief that you’re kind of the only one who can really do this work well?

[00:11:01] Felicia: Right. Exactly. And so if that’s the case, if you still really feel that way about your work where you’re like, no, I’m really the only one who can do this, then you shouldn’t have a group practice, period, because you will end up in the situation where time and time again, you are feeling frustrated because you can’t figure out why it’s not growing, and why you aren’t filling these people’s caseload.

[00:11:22] And it’s like, if you’ve got this sneaky ego thing that’s telling you that you’re the best… and listen, I am all for bragging. This is something I teach my clients how to do. Like we should be celebrating ourselves. We should be talking about how great we are. And like you said, we need to check our egos.

[00:11:39] There’s a lot of ego in our field. And I will say there are ways that’s gotten in my way in my therapy practice, right? I have to check that. But yeah, we really have to be able to get behind our clinicians in group practice 

[00:11:53] Linzy: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:11:53] Felicia: if we don’t, it’s going to be a terrible experience for everyone all around. Yeah.

[00:11:58] Linzy: Absolutely. Yeah. So that connects then to earlier you mentioned about how the sales process also looks different, like the marketing needs to look different, but so does the sales process. So tell me what looks different about the sales process for group practice?

[00:12:11] Felicia: Yeah, so this was such a fun problem for me to help one of my clients solve. He was in a scenario where he had this clinician for a while, a little bit before we started working together. And at the very beginning of our working together, we really focused on streamlining his caseload, making that simplified.

[00:12:31] And then once that was accomplished, it’s like, okay, now that you’ve cleared up your calendar, your caseload personally is just not chaotic anymore. Let’s look at filling up this other person’s caseload. And one of the issues that we saw was someone that we just talked about which was like this person Felt as if they were kind of shoehorned into the practice rather than like celebrated and promoted as somebody who, you know, any client would be lucky to work with right?

[00:12:56] It was kind of like, oh, there’s this person, and then there’s this other lady, and I’m like how do you think that feels to the clients? He’s full, but you could work with her. It’s like that can’t be the vibe because that doesn’t feel good to people. The other thing that was happening is we needed to dial in the client onboarding process.

[00:13:13] So one of the things that I work with my clients a lot around is the client journey from start to finish. So marketing is kind of the first point of contact. It’s how you get eyeballs on your business. And so often for therapists, we almost skip the sales part. We don’t recognize that as a really crucial step for the client.

[00:13:32] We’re like, Oh, I market, and then I get a client, and then we’re working together. And I get a client part is like, whoop, so neglected. And so what we really worked on in his practice is he hired an admin and I trained her in a sales process. And they were able to go from really struggling to fill this person’s caseload to filling it really quickly after that, which was awesome.

[00:13:57] And then getting to a point where it’s like, Oh, okay, now I can hire other clinicians. So that was a massive turnaround. 

[00:14:03] So I think a lot of the things that I would advise for a solo practice owner when it comes to their sales process also transfer to a group practice owner, but I would say the main objection to overcome if you are making the transition from you know, a fairly successful solo practice where you as the owner are well known, you have a great reputation, people are calling because they want to work with you.

[00:14:27] The main objection you’re going to need to know how to address is basically why can’t I work with a group practice owner, right? And so I think you need to, again, be able to talk up this clinician that you’ve hired in a way that’s ethical and responsible, we’re not trying to force people to work with somebody they don’t want to work with.

[00:14:46] But I think, again, you need to be able to say,, this is somebody who I really trust. I hired them on purpose. In the case of one of the group practice owners that I really workshop this with, he had an admin that he hired to handle this process, which was also really helpful because it meant that the onboarding process was streamlined.

[00:15:05] When they reached out to the practice, there was one person who was responding to them. And prior to that, it was pretty chaotic. I was like, okay, so what happens when someone contacts the practice? And it’s like, well, I might respond to them, or my wife who I’ve hired as an admin might respond to them or, and I’m like, okay, so there’s like no

[00:15:22] Linzy: hmm. It’s like anything could happen.

[00:15:25] Felicia: Anything could happen. Are we tracking this? Where’s this information going? And so that was a big part of it is: if you don’t already have a clear process in place for handling client inquiries as a solo practice owner, and then you try to move to group practice, that lack of system is going to become a much bigger issue.

[00:15:47] The practice got bigger; the problem got bigger. So we definitely wanted to solve that. That’s one of the things that we did. And then again, addressing that question of, oh, but you know, I’m calling because I want to work with this group practice owner. 

[00:16:00] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:16:01] Felicia: And so, in the case of this particular group practice, it was true that the group practice owner was supervising this clinician.

[00:16:08] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:16:09] Felicia: So if someone wanted to work with him, they could say, , he is supervising this clinician and ensuring that their work is really high quality. You can really get behind her.

[00:16:21] And the main thing is just come in for a first session and see how that feels. I find that is really effective whether you’re running a group practice or you’ve got a solo practice, just really making the next decision that the client needs to make really simple.

[00:16:36] Linzy: Right. Right. Yes.

[00:16:39] Felicia: And if you can’t say to someone on the phone, I would encourage you to come in for a first session, then either you need to work on developing your confidence, or that person’s just not a good fit for the practice, and you need to refer them out. But if you can’t say to somebody, I think I could help you with this problem, or I think, you know, this clinician would be a good fit, I’d love to help you schedule that first session with them, then you’ve got a bigger problem.

[00:17:00] Linzy: Yeah. Yeah, and it does make me think about the sales funnel. Because again, therapists, as you said, we kind of gloss over the sales part of what we do. Partially it’s because if you’ve done good marketing, and somebody knows, this is who I want to see, they speak to my problem. Like if you’ve got a website that already addresses a lot of the questions, then often as therapists, we don’t have to do a lot to sell partially because we’re so specialized.

[00:17:23] Ideally you are specialized. It’s like that person already is pretty much ready to buy, so to speak, when they get on the phone with you. Right. So really you’re just going to have your initial consult chat or talk about a time. They’re going to get a good enough vibe. They’re going to agree to come for that first session.

[00:17:36] So we are selling, but it’s easier when you’re selling yourself, and you’ve already put all this energy into marketing yourself. But when you have a group, as you say, they are coming for somebody who probably hasn’t… they don’t have the whole website about them, right? They maybe have like a one page bio on your site, or they’re calling the group because they want to talk to somebody, right?

[00:17:55] And then there does need to be some process and clarity around, this is the right person for you and this is why there needs to be a little bit of selling, right? And that is what actually helps somebody get in the door is you being able to legitimately sell somebody or your admin being able to legitimately sell somebody because you’ve made good hires, and you know these are good therapists, and you know they can help this person, and you know this is the right person, and then what I’m hearing from you, the marketing language that I’d put it in is they need a clear call to action.

[00:18:22] There needs to be a clear next decision, not multiple next decisions, not, well, think about it and think if you’d want to come weekly or bi weekly, and we’ve got this spot, and this spot, or call around, or their next decision is do you want to come in for an appointment with this person? Just come in, and try an appointment, and see how it feels. And then they just sort of decide, do I want to come in for an appointment or do I not?

[00:18:42] Felicia: Exactly.

[00:18:43] Linzy: You have to take away the burden of 10 decisions when really the most important one is that they take the next step down your sales funnel, which is come have that first session and see if it’s a fit.

[00:18:53] Felicia: Right. Exactly. One of the marketing maxims is like a confused mind doesn’t say yes.

[00:18:59] Linzy: No, I’ve never heard that.

[00:19:01] Felicia: Yeah. So, and you basically just described it, though, a confused mind doesn’t say yes. If we’re saying, you could do this or this or this or this, and I was just having this conversation actually right before this call with a one on one client, which is, our clients don’t necessarily know how therapy is going to work.

[00:19:18] Unless they’re already a therapist themselves, they’re probably not an expert on therapy. And I think a lot of the times, we do this all over our practices, but we do this thing where we don’t want to force the client to do something they don’t want to, we don’t want to put pressure on them.

[00:19:32] And so we kind of lean way back and we’re like, well, I don’t know, what do you want to do? It’s like wait a minute, do you not know what we should do? 

[00:19:41] Linzy: Yes, right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:43] Felicia: Am I supposed to be deciding these things? And I think even if we’re not fully conscious of that, on the therapist end, if we’re not fully conscious of doing that, even if the client isn’t fully, you know, they’re not thinking actually in their mind, wow, I don’t trust this person, I do think it creates a lack of safety and trust, where it’s like, there are absolutely places to co-create and collaborate with your clients in the therapy itself.

[00:20:06] But if you don’t know, if you can’t, with conviction say, Hey, based on what you said, and based on what I know about this clinician, I think it makes sense for you to come in for that first session. If you can’t do that, then there’s a problem.

[00:20:19] Linzy: We’ll be like, oh, I don’t want to say that because I don’t want to put pressure on them. It’s like why would they know that’s how this should work?

[00:20:25] Felicia: You know, I’m glad you’re doing a video because i’m using my hands so much right now I’m, I realize people listening cannot see my hands But yeah, it’s like we need to recognize our role as the therapist in this process and stop putting that burden on our clients because it ends up confusing them It ends up making them not feel safe.

[00:20:47] It ends up making us look like we don’t know what we’re doing, frankly. And if we’re a group practice owner, not only is that impacting us, we’re struggling to fill our clinicians’ caseloads, and then we’re so confused about why, right? And like you said earlier, you know, there’s a whole range of like the way people run group practices from, formulas or processes that are very exploitative of the employees or contractors. To ones like another one of my clients I had, where they were paying a clinician they hired double what they were paying themselves even though this clinician was not doing more work.

[00:21:27] Linzy: It was just a really this clinician didn’t want to exploit anybody. And so they didn’t know that they were setting themselves up to basically be working for their employee. And anyway, so there’s a whole range of that, but if you want to fill your clinicians’ caseloads, then you really, you or the admin needs to be able to say yes, based on what you are saying, potential client and this therapist, I think you should come in for a first session.

[00:21:55] Mm hmm.

[00:21:56] Felicia: That is not unethical or inappropriate to say to a client.

[00:21:59] But I think a lot of times we’re afraid that if we even take that kind of a stance, that we are somehow becoming unethical and that needs to get cleared up because we are so getting in our own ways. And we are robbing the clients of the help that they need, right? We’re creating confusion

[00:22:16] Linzy: Mm hmm. 

[00:22:17] Felicia: getting in the way of them actually receiving the help that would be so beneficial for them. And so when I think back to, you know, that group practice owner that i’ve been referencing a lot not the one who was working for her employee.

[00:22:31] But, what ended up happening with so many of the changes that we made is not only did his clinician end up earning more money and getting to have more clients, he also earned more money.

[00:22:43] Linzy: Hmm.

[00:22:44] Felicia: And more clients got served as a result of making these changes. The people who needed the help got the help. We removed those barriers. And so it was literally a win, win, win. And that was one of the things I’m so happy about.

[00:23:01] Linzy: Yeah, absolutely. And, part of me is thinking and what made that happen is they learned how to make the sale. Right? Which is not what people want to hear. That’s not what therapists want to think about. But you’re so right. I think when we are also really critical and troubled by power hierarchies,

[00:23:19] and we’re so aware of systemic oppression, we can be so troubled and burdened as therapists, because we’re so aware of everything that is wrong about the world. But we are doing a disservice when we’re not just owning the value, basically, because that’s what you’re doing. If you are trying to fill somebody else’s caseload, or if you’re a solo practitioner and you’re just having that conversation yourself, it is in everybody’s service for you to say, Hey, I think that, you know, what you’re looking for is what I do.

[00:23:47] Can we book a first session so you can come in and chat? Or would you like to book a first session with me? It’s so simple, right? But yeah, but I can feel…I almost remember the parts of me, I think, that would have been afraid to do that. Like you’re somehow, exerting too much power over somebody, but yeah, they’re coming to you because they need help.

[00:24:02] And if you make it foggy and unclear as to whether you’re the right person to give them help, or how they can get help, or whether they should be looking somewhere else, then they’re not getting help. And that’s ultimately Why they’re coming to you in the first place, right? And I think about that too in group practice leadership, as you say, when you move into that leadership role and now you have to make decisions and it’s not always a discussion with your employees or contractors to be like, well, what are you, what do you think?

[00:24:25] What if we did this? It does make me think about sturdy parenting, sturdy leadership. So I consume a little bit of Dr. Becky kind of stuff. This is like a parenting thing. And she talks about this idea of being a sturdy parent, right? And the same applies in leadership where it’s just like when you have your feet solidly under you and you say: this is what we’re doing, this is why we’re doing it, if that needs to happen… And you can really hold with clarity what’s happening, even if parts of you are in doubt or even if you don’t know for sure if it’s going to work, but you can say we’re going to try this.

[00:24:59] This is the reason we’re doing it. That is grounding for everybody. Right? When we start to get all wishy washy, everybody’s like, wait a second, is nobody in charge here? Are we adrift at sea? So yes, as much as it can be scary to play that role, that is a role that does need to be served if you’re running a group and it’s not just a collective where everybody has exactly equal power and equal responsibility.

[00:25:21] Yeah, you are the boss, so you need to own that.

[00:25:24] Felicia: Absolutely. My brain is going in so many different directions right now. But, first of all, just yes to everything you just said. One of the things that really blew my mind about power, and a different way to think about power, is the flow of attention. And I’m not going to get too much into it, but there’s this author that I like named Kasia Urbaniak, and she has a background working as like a dominatrix and studying like Taoist principles for a really long time. So she’s got a really interesting combo of backgrounds.

[00:25:59]  But one of the things that she talks about is, there are power dynamics present in every single relationship at all times. And one of the things that we’ll do is we’ll almost pretend that’s not happening.

[00:26:14] And we think that power dynamics are inherently bad, but I really like her definition of it because it thinks about power on a more fundamental level, which is where’s attention being directed? So when we’re the group practice owner, or we’re even on our own solo practice, rather than pretending as if there’s not a power dynamic, where can we engage with the power that we have in a way that is helpful, and not harmful? You know, the reality is that we do have responsibilities in our practices as the owners, whether it’s solo or group practice, that are our responsibilities, and in my opinion, we should not be trying to make those other people’s responsibilities.

[00:27:00] It should not be my client’s responsibility to decide what my office hours are. It shouldn’t be their responsibility to decide what I am going to charge or what my cancellation fee is going to be. They don’t know my life circumstances and what would be appropriate. They don’t know my energy levels.

[00:27:20] That would be a really weird decision to put onto them. And so I think we can just be so confused about where our responsibilities lie. And it ends up creating, , it might be tolerable for a bit because a lot of therapists build their practices in these ways. We end up, kind of deferring to our clients and giving them responsibilities that really should be ours. And that might be okay for a while because maybe we’re young, we’ve got a lot of energy. We’re very optimistic. We really want to do this work. But after years and years and years of making decisions in concert with clients and having them weigh in on things that are fundamental is what we’re charging and what our policies are when we’re working, after years and years and years of deferring to someone else, that starts to wear on us.

[00:28:08] And that’s where therapists ultimately are burning out and leaving the field

[00:28:12] Linzy: Because we didn’t take the time to recognize our responsibility in the first place. Yes. Right. Because part of power is responsibility.

[00:28:22] Felicia: Right.

[00:28:23] Linzy: Yeah. I think about that as I think about my own practitioners that I work with when I get body work done. This is an unkind way to say it, but I am like a physical idiot. When people are like, oh, this muscle’s really tight, I’m like, Is it?

[00:28:35] I’m not somebody who has great intuition on what I need in terms of treatments or whatever. So when I go see a practitioner, say a massage therapist or an osteo or whatever, if they don’t tell me, okay, based on what I’m seeing, I think you should come in every two weeks for like two months, or you should come in once a week for a few weeks.

[00:28:53] If they don’t tell me that, I literally have no idea how often I should be going there. And then I’ve got this weird responsibility on me that I’m literally not qualified to hold because I don’t know what treatment looks like. If I’ve got a muscle that gets really angry sometimes, should we be going really hard on that?

[00:29:08] Should we be going easy? Should I be seeing you every month for maintenance? I don’t know. And so unless that person is actually confidently expressing to me a treatment plan, I notice that I end up walking out and I’m like, I guess I should see them again, right? I’m not an expert in osteopathy or the musculoskeletal system.

[00:29:27] So yes, as a client, I can think about how that feels, too. And there does feel like this, Oh, I thought they were the boss, but maybe I’m the boss, but I should not be the boss of this

[00:29:36] Felicia: Right. One of the ways I was successful in my own private practice is because whether or not I could have languaged it that way, I realized this fairly early on. That, oh, I get better results when I take charge in certain areas. When I take charge, when it comes to the particular frame where I’m like, these are the times I can meet.

[00:29:59] It’s not like, hey, it’s totally collaborative. Let’s sit down and look at our calendars together. You pick when I’m going to work with you. It’s like, no, I can see you at this time or this time. Those are your options. My fee is this. Do you want to work together or not? That, I think, instilled actually a lot of trust in people. Now when it came to what’s going to happen in the session together, right?

[00:30:22] Of course, there were some boundaries around that there’s certainly some things we were not going to do, but apart from those things, almost everything else was on the table. And that’s where there’s a lot less power. That’s where there’s a lot more co-creation and collaboration. But when it comes to some of these other things where I’m like, Hey, these are the options.

[00:30:39] It’s very straightforward. I’m only giving you a few decisions to make. That’s it.

[00:30:44] Linzy: Yes.

[00:30:45] Felicia: And I feel, for so many people, there’s a sense of relief. It’s like, Oh, they only had to really focus on the important thing, which is, do I want to do this or not? Not, am I suddenly deciding how to help you run your business?

[00:30:58] Linzy: Yes. Yeah. You’re creating the container. And then they don’t have to make those decisions. They just have to decide, does this feel good? Do I want to keep working with this person? And that’s their decision that they get to make.

[00:31:07] Felicia: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Linzy: I mean, going back to that group practice intake piece, the referring to somebody else piece…

[00:31:14] Something that I see folks do sometimes as group practice owners is they price their own fee as different than the folks who work for them. Generally, a hundred percent of the time, they have a higher fee than the people that they hire. What is your take on that strategy as a way to set up your practice fees?

[00:31:33] Felicia: This was one of my favorite issues that I helped one of my clients address because I was asking him, what do you think this is communicating to the client? When someone comes to the practice and they see you, you, you, you, you all over the front page and all of the testimonials are about you.

[00:31:50] And then they call and they talk to someone and they’re told you’re full but they can work with this other lady. And then they’re also told that working with her is 100 less. What do you think a buyer, a customer, a client would think about the quality of support they’re going to be getting working with this person?

[00:32:09] Even after we addressed some of those other things, before we got to the price, even just the price alone, I think, had a big impact. And so,pricing psychology has a real impact on people’s decision making. And I think group practice owners need to be careful about having rates for their clinicians that are dramatically less than theirs. I don’t think there’s necessarily a reason for employees at a group practice to have lower rates.

[00:32:35] Linzy: Okay.

[00:32:36] Felicia: I mean, I think it would be interesting to see, can we have all of the clinicians have the same rate as the group practice owner, and see what happens?

[00:32:43] Linzy: Yeah. And when you’re thinking that, because I’m, I’m thinking about some examples, because I know many people who do this, right? Where it’s like the group practice owner has a higher rate. Often they’re very in demand. And then their clinicians have a lower rate. And I’m curious, from your perspective, is it about how big the difference is between those rates?

[00:33:00] Let’s say for instance, my rate is 225 and my team, they charge 200. I communicate the same?

[00:33:09] Felicia: No, I think that would probably, that wouldn’t do as much damage. But I also would question if it’s that close, why not have it be the same? Because here’s the thing, like, yes, there are some people who are going to be calling who are like, oh, I know this group practice owner and I’m calling because I’m still imagining I can work with them.

[00:33:26] But let’s say that you’re getting traffic to your group practice website because of some SEO work you did, or because of word of mouth, right? And so when someone lands on the website, if it’s done effectively, it shouldn’t necessarily be like the group practice owner plus all these other people.

[00:33:42] It should be like, here is a group practice that you can work with. And if I am the potential client looking at that, why would I go in thinking that some of these people are more valuable to work with than others? You are planting that seed in my mind as the client if I don’t already have that. Because the reality is, a lot of potential therapy seekers are not necessarily… like, do we all need to be therapists when we’re working with clients as therapists?

[00:34:10] Yes, duh. Absolutely. But are clients oftentimes dissecting our credentials and paying super close attention to that? No, what they want to know is, can you help me with my problem?

[00:34:21] Linzy: Mhm.

[00:34:22] Felicia: First and foremost, that is the question that clients are trying to answer throughout their decision making process. Can you help me with my problem?

[00:34:30] Linzy: Mhm.

[00:34:31] Felicia: And it doesn’t necessarily matter to most people exactly what those letters are after somebody’s name. Or exactly how long they’ve been in the field. If we can say responsibly, yes, I think this person can help you with their problem, and we can have that strong conviction, then all the other stuff is way less important.

[00:34:51] I think it’s kind of a funny thing that we’ve decided… This is one of those places where we know some things that our clients don’t know. And so we’re assuming that they’re going to have the same opinions we have, and they just don’t. So that’s what happened with this group practice owner. There was a big disparity. And I was like, are potential clients asking about credentials? Are they needing to know the exact number of years of experience? The answer to that was no. But what they were seeing was this massive discrepancy in the fee. And then they were thinking, Oh, this must not be as good quality.

[00:35:23] So we had him raise his clinician’s fee. And again, that was a big part of her caseload filling up a lot 

[00:35:30] Linzy: faster.

[00:35:30] Right. Yes.

[00:35:31] Felicia: So again, a win, win, win. Clients got the care they needed. He made more money. The clinician made more money.

[00:35:37] Linzy: Yeah. Cause I’m hearing objections internally. Some of my objections.

[00:35:42] Felicia: Oh, I would love hear 

[00:35:43] Linzy: them.

[00:35:43] One that I’m thinking about is sometimes I know folks who, they’re a group practice owner, and they’ve really established themselves as a premium therapist. Like they’re very in demand.

[00:35:52] Maybe they have a public facing brand. Maybe they’ve written a book, right? That kind of thing where they can command a very high fee, and maybe they’ve done some of their own personal fee raising before they become a group. Like they’ve raised their fee to 300 and nobody’s cared and then they raise it to 375 and they’re like, Oh shit, still nobody cares, because they have developed that level of, reputation, I guess,

[00:36:12] and then also obviously are working with a clientele who have enough money that they can afford that. And I’m thinking, I don’t think the other folks in their practice could charge that fee, right? Could command a fee that high because they don’t have the same level of personal brand built, right?

[00:36:26] So that’s something that I’m thinking. I’m like, yeah, what do you do in a case like that where somebody has already built up to a premium fee level and then they’re bringing on other people? Yeah, tell me.

[00:36:35] Felicia: So my question is, maybe it’s more of a question. My question is if that is true, why aren’t they lending that clout to their clinicians.

[00:36:45] Felicia: Right? 

[00:36:45] Linzy: Mm 

[00:36:46] Felicia: If it’s so true that they can command these high fees that they’re super well respected, why aren’t they saying, Oh, you respect me.

[00:36:55] Here’s someone who I would vouch for. Why isn’t that happening? Why are we just going, Oh yeah, this person has a lower fee. That’s the missing ingredient regardless of the range of fees that a group practice owner might have for themselves and for the clinicians who are working for them. That one piece is so often missing is that we’re not taking advantage of that and saying, yeah, and I’ve got all these incredible clinicians working for me and this is someone who I think could be a good fit for you.

[00:37:25] Of course, you need to go meet them, and see how that feels. And again, if they’re providing supervision, if they’re in regular contact with their clinicians, and there is that direct guidance,

[00:37:35] Linzy: Yes.

[00:37:36] Felicia: Then it’s even more so the case that we’re like, oh, I’m supervising them. I don’t know that I would say supervising to a client because they may not know what that means, 

[00:37:44] Linzy: Yeah. 

[00:37:44] Felicia: But I would  say, you know, I am mentoring this clinician. think they could be a really good fit.

[00:37:50] Linzy: Mm

[00:37:50] Felicia: Maybe a client wouldn’t necessarily tolerate exactly the same fee, but again, I don’t know that clients are thinking about it the same way we are. We have come up in an industry where our years of experience and our hierarchies internally are super important.

[00:38:08] There’s a lot of almost like hazing our younger therapists.

[00:38:12] Linzy: Yes. Totally.

[00:38:13] Felicia: Ha, ha, ha. Now you get to be not paid well. And oh, you can’t charge more than your supervisors or mentors. There’s a lot of that, like keeping newer people down.

[00:38:23] Linzy: Small. Yeah.

[00:38:24] Felicia: I don’t necessarily think the rest of the world sees it that way.

[00:38:28] Linzy: Uh huh.

[00:38:29] Felicia: I think we’re shooting ourselves in the foot.

[00:38:33] Linzy: That is so interesting. I’m going to have to sit with it, but I think you might be right. Sure. Of course.

[00:38:39] Felicia: I’m sure there are limits, right? I’m sure there are limits, but I think it would be interesting to test this theory. And so far, I have good evidence working with my own clients that this might be a thing we’re making up and we, as a field, are maintaining that our clients are not necessarily interested in maintaining.

[00:38:57] Linzy: And it does make me think about quality over quantity in terms of what makes a group healthy as well. Because some of the work that I do with folks in Money Skills for Group Practice Owners is help them understand how their group practice numbers work. And I’m thinking if you had a smaller team where everybody is charging 200 an hour rather than some people charging 125 and some people charging 175 and then the owner charges like, I wonder how those numbers would actually shake out at the end of the day and, yeah, like what the health of that business would look like.

[00:39:23] And I suspect, based on things like crunching numbers and understanding expenses go up when we have a bigger team. Sometimes you have to have a big expense go up because you have a big enough team, you have to move into a bigger space. There’s a lot of expenses associated with having larger team sizes.

[00:39:35] Everybody probably would be better off if they just borrowed the clout of the owner, if the owner’s built a lot of clout. And then everybody is better off and the clients are paying sometimes only nominally more than they would have been. But as you say, yeah, if we get over ourselves and our own hierarchies, then maybe this stuff doesn’t actually really matter so much.

[00:39:52] Felicia: Yeah, I know. Let’s do an experiment.

[00:39:55] Linzy: Yes.

[00:39:56] Felicia: to see what happens. But yeah, I have, I have reason to believe that it’s not as big a deal to the public as it is to us because they just don’t get it. They just  want to know, again, can you help me with my problem? Period.

[00:40:10] Linzy: Yeah. 

[00:40:10] Felicia: You’re like, and we have ethical responsibilities to ensure that we are, you know, in a place where we can provide the work, and be therapists.

[00:40:19] But all of the other stuff on top of that. is just a lot of ego that is carried over from all the gatekeeping that we do that is oftentimes… we know that that’s happening, but the public isn’t necessarily aware of this entire intricate system that we’re all maintaining within our industry.

[00:40:38] Linzy: Yeah. 

[00:40:39] Felicia: And so I think we need to question this impulse that our clients are seeing it the same way. Cause, again, unless they’re other therapists, more often than not, they are not seeing it that way. And again, if you cannot get behind your clinicians and say, I would vouch for this person, then something needs to change about that.

[00:40:59] Linzy: Absolutely.

[00:41:00] Felicia this is great. Thank you.

[00:41:04] Linzy: For folks who are listening who want to get further into your world, where can they find you and follow you?

[00:41:10] Felicia: Yeah. So I’m on Instagram at the bad therapist. I have my own podcast called The Bad Therapist show. It’s everywhere you listen to your podcasts. My website is the bad therapist. coach. And I have a free fee calculator tool that I created called the magic sheet. So if you want to get that free tool and be on my email list and know what’s going on, that would be a great thing to do.

[00:41:34] Linzy: Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[00:41:37] Felicia: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:41:38] Linzy: Felicia brought up some really interesting and also some challenging ideas today. So appreciate her perspective on these things. Definitely has troubled slash, maybe shifted my thinking on a couple of things today in our conversation about group practice, but certainly this piece about the importance of creating that clarity for clients.

[00:42:11] Reducing as much confusion as possible, be it in that initial intake conversation, be it in yourself that you, yourself are clear you’re really gonna wanna work with this clinician. They’re amazing. Lending them your clout, lending them your reputation that you built by setting a free structure that doesn’t put you way above the folks who work for you.

[00:42:30] And just creating that clarity by really owning your expertise and your role in the relationship, owning the power, rather than pretending that you and that person are on equal power footing, but using the power that you have as a therapist to help people by being clear. If somebody’s a great fit: Would you like to book a first appointment?

[00:42:49] I think that this could be a good fit. Would you like to come in and have your first appointment? Rather than being wishy washy and creating space for confusion and uncertainty for folks. We are not helping people when we are not being clear. And after my conversation with Felicia, before recording this outro, I jumped onto a call with one of my Money Skills for Therapists students, and we were talking about cancellation policy, and I pulled up an old document from my own practice when I rolled out a clear, regular appointment spot system, and I had to pat myself on the back a little bit looking at that document in light of the conversation I just had with Felicia about how clear I was in the document, and how informative it is in that document of explaining why I was rolling out regular appointment slots, I explained how it works in therapy, and what folks need to thrive in therapy, and what I need as a therapist to thrive in therapy, which in this case is a regular schedule and predictable income.

[00:43:41] I don’t think I mentioned the income part, but we do a favor to folks when we actually own our expertise and when we tell them honestly that we think that we can help them because we do. That is actually doing people a favor and when we are afraid to do that, we actually just, you know, as Felicia would probably say, get in our own way, and certainly create doubt in that person, even though they might be a great fit for us.

[00:44:02] So lots to think about there. I so appreciated Felicia’s insights today, and getting to see her again on the podcast. You can follow me on Instagram at Money, Nuts and Bolts. And if you are enjoying the podcast, please tell other people about it. tell folks that you went to school with, tell your neighbor down the hall, and also you can watch this episode and all of my episodes on YouTube.

[00:44:25] YouTube. I don’t exactly have like the YouTube lighting and the look down. It’s not really my scene. But if you like to watch people talk and watch Felicia and I’s hand movements, our episodes are now also on YouTube. So you can watch the video, if you are more of a video person. So thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.