Meet Aviva Abraham

[00:00:00] Aviva: You need to speak to a specialist because Google gives some good basic information, but it doesn’t tell you what to be aware of, what to watch out for, what the actual situation is when you’re dealing with daily. When speaking with a specialist dealing with this, they always know what to set you up with. They know which policy to recommend.

[00:00:30] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s guest is Aviva Abraham. Aviva is an insurance specialist. She focuses on helping self-employed people with health insurance and life insurance and she is Canadian, but so much of what we talk about today is about insurance in general, and how insurance fits into our larger financial picture.

[00:01:12] So today Aviva and I talk about the best time to get insurance. We talk about the greatest risks to our financial stability and how insurance can help with those. She also gives some advice on how to make sure that you have the right insurance for you, who to get insurance from, and how to assess the insurance coverage that you have. It is not a sexy topic, as we talk about on this podcast, but it is such an important topic, and thinking today about the connection between insurance and finances certainly has me ready to go reassess my insurance situation. You might find yourself in the same place in about half an hour. Here is my conversation with Aviva Abraham. 

[00:02:05] Linzy: So Aviva, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:09] Aviva: Great to be here. 

[00:02:11] Linzy: Wonderful to have you here. So, Aviva, I’m going to say that insurance is a world that I know is important. It’s very important to finances, but it’s also a world that I don’t know a ton about. So I think probably a lot of our listeners are on that same page. So just to get us grounded in where you’re coming from, can you tell us about the work that you do as we move into talking about insurance today?

[00:02:35] Aviva: So I have to admit that before I got into the insurance industry, I didn’t know a lot about insurance either. 

[00:02:43] So it’s really funny and if you would have asked me 20 years ago, and told me that I’d be an insurance advisor, I would have laughed at you. Because I started my career as an accountant in New York City.

[00:02:55] I’m good with numbers. I like numbers. I feel more comfortable with numbers, but I did get married, moved to Toronto, and took some time off to raise my family. And then when my youngest went to school, I decided to go back to work and was looking for something to do because I did not want to go back into accounting.

[00:03:16] But I wanted something in the financial services field. So I ended up finding a position with somebody in the same office that I am now who did insurance and investment. And I originally thought I would go into the investment field.

[00:03:30] But then 2008 happened, and I said I never want to be responsible for people’s money. To have to tell them the market tanked, we lost their money. And insurance was more like a better fit for me. in terms of planning, guarantees, and stability. So I gravitated towards that and started my new career in that field. So that’s when I learned all about that and the advantages of that. But yeah, it’s not something people wake up to in the morning and say, I want to learn about it or I want to get it.

[00:04:09] That’s one of the challenges of being an advisor. 

[00:04:13] Linzy: Absolutely. It’s funny, you mentioned that you like planning and stability. So insurance is a natural fit. It’s something I haven’t thought about before, but I do remember years ago now, probably like 15 years ago, when I got kind of my first real job that had benefits, I remember reading my benefits booklet to my partner at the time and being like, Hey, look at this.

[00:04:33] If I die overseas, they’ll ship my body home. And he was like, stop it. What is wrong with you? But I also get overly excited about stability and security. So it makes a lot of sense to me that with those traits, you would get excited about helping folks to create that in their own life. 

[00:04:49] Aviva: Yeah, but that’s funny.

[00:04:51] Linzy: Yeah, I do get excited about stability for sure. So for folks listening, what’s the starting point? Like what would you tell them is the most important thing that you want them to know about insurance and getting insurance 

[00:05:08] Aviva: I know that you talk to your therapist about feeling calm and confident about their finances, and that’s what insurance does for you, because while they’re building their practice, along the way they’re going to get a handle on their finances, they’re going to start creating their wealth, but along the way, they need to protect that wealth and that’s what insurance does for you.

[00:05:31] It gives you that financial foundation and protection so that if something were to happen, whether it’s someone getting sick or even if you’ve got a family and somebody passes away, then you want to know your family is taken care of. So, the big thing that people should be aware of today is that

[00:05:53] if you are healthy now, and if it’s something you haven’t dealt with yet, for whatever reason, you’re busy in your business, life’s busy, you just never wanted to deal with it before… But if you’re healthy now, now is the time to apply, and to get that insurance, because the insurers are stricter these days, in terms of who they are approving, and what their health status is.

[00:06:19] So if somebody started a new medication, if somebody has gone for testing, they could be postponed or declined coverage because of these things. I know a lot of people say, I’m healthy, I’m fine, I don’t need to get it yet, but that’s exactly the right time to get it.

[00:06:39] Linzy: What I’m hearing is once you start having health issues or once they start to identify risks for you, you may not get insurance because now you’re a liability, or I’m assuming your insurance gets more expensive as you get older.

[00:06:52] Aviva: So both can happen. I’ve had clients in the last few years who started a new medication. They went for testing because they went to their doctor for a concern. After all, that hasn’t been deemed stable yet… so the insurance company is looking at it; they said, Oh, you just started a medication.

[00:07:12] We don’t know how that’s going to affect you or if you took a test; we don’t have the full diagnosis yet. So they either postpone and they say come back to us in a year, or they decline. So, in those cases, there are some specialty insurers where you could get a more limited amount of coverage, and you would pay more because you’re considered more at risk, but yeah, so it could be either or.

[00:07:38] Linzy: Yes, what I’m hearing is to get it before you think you need it. Right, which is when we’re not thinking about it. When you feel young and invincible, then is the time to get that. What is so interesting, and it must be such a challenge for you because that’s so contrary to human nature, right? We tend to think about things once they’re a problem, 

[00:08:00] Aviva: I get a lot of those calls. Oh, you know, I just went to the doctor and so I realized I never got my insurance and yeah, it’s too late once there is an issue.

[00:08:12] Linzy: Right. right. Yeah, because what I’m hearing is As you said, I help folks to feel calm and confident about their finances, right? Like, get clear on your numbers, get money going where you want it to go. What I’m hearing from you is insurance is an important part of the financial stability picture. Am I understanding that clearly?

[00:08:28] Aviva: Yes.

[00:08:28] Linzy: Tell me a little bit more about how these things fit together. Like, what are some of the risks that can come up, and ruin the financial work that we’ve done?

[00:08:38] Aviva: So first there’s if somebody gets sick. So, there’s a much higher chance of somebody under the age of 65 getting sick and living with that. These days because of medical advancements people who got cancer 20 years ago didn’t live all that long but today, about 50 percent of people who get cancer or another critical illness are actually living with it between two to five years, and sometimes more than five years.

[00:09:08] But they can’t work the way they used to work. They have higher medical expenses and are as different as the U. S.– because I know you have U. S. and Canadian listeners on here– as different as the healthcare systems are, what we’re talking about today affects both Canadian and U. S. and are similar in certain ways.

[00:09:29] So, if somebody is having a health issue, there are ways to keep working, but they’ll still have more medical expenses. People think Canadian health care is free, but it’s not. People with cancer must pay for their medical drugs. That’s how it’s like the U. S. That way your medical expenses will increase.

[00:09:51] So you need more money. You may not be able to work as much and earn as much. And the risk of getting sick before age 65 is like three times higher than somebody dying, but then there’s the case of somebody dying and then their family needs money. So, there’s a lot to consider there. 

[00:10:13] Linzy: Yeah, this conversation, not surprisingly, is illuminating my gaps in maybe the insurance coverage that I have, because my partner and I have life insurance, and we’ve had that for a long time, ever since we bought our home together. We were like, if I die, I don’t want you to be stuck with this mortgage.

[00:10:28] And so that’s when we got insurance in our lives, and that was about five years before we had my son, but what I’m hearing is you’re talking about is the risk of getting sick and then our expenses go up because we have increased medical expenses. And it’s true in Canada, I know a lot of cancer medications now you have to pay for.

[00:10:46] The treatment is no longer chemo in the hospital, it’s medication you take at home. And when you take medication at home, you must pay for it. So, although these drugs are more effective, they’re also expensive, and you can’t earn as much because you’re not working. So that kind of insurance coverage… what is that? Is that critical illness coverage? What type of coverage is that, Aviva?

[00:11:05] Aviva: Two types of coverage get affected by that. One is healthcare coverage. Who will pay for the drugs? What kind of health plan do you have? And so, if you’re self-employed, it costs a lot more, like you’re the one paying for it as opposed to you being an employee in a company that has a group benefits plan.

[00:11:29] Then there’s also the critical illness. So critical illness coverage is a lump sum of money that’s paid out to you if diagnosed with a covered condition. So there are situations where you might need a very high-cost drug. Like, in the last 5 to 10 years, the cost of specialty drugs have 

[00:11:50] more than quadrupled. Whether it’s for high cholesterol or chronic pain, it could be tens of thousands of dollars a month, and if somebody needs that, then that devastates. Like, that’s the biggest risk to somebody’s finances these days. It’s the cost of specialty drugs. The cost of medical care is significant these days if someone is diagnosed with a serious health issue. 

[00:12:17] So that’s just something that’s developed. It didn’t used to be like that 20 years ago, but these days, like a cancer drug, it can be over 100, 000.

[00:12:27] So that’s where the critical illness policy also comes in. If you have drug coverage, that’s great. But in addition to that, there might be other expenses that you need to cover. And so critical illness insurance gives you a lump sum of money that you could spend in whatever way you want. You could pay down debt.

[00:12:47] So if somebody has a mortgage and they decide, you know what, I want to use this to pay down my debt. They can do that. They can use it for a trip. They can use it for whatever they want. It’s just a lump sum of money if someone is diagnosed. So those two things together really help. Disability coverage can help as well, but that would be only if you’re disabled for an extended period because of an illness.

[00:13:11] So, there are a few different ways to cover that risk. 

[00:13:17] Linzy: Cause as you’re talking about that, I have disability insurance, which I’ve had for a long time. I have no idea what it is, Aviva. I have no idea how much coverage is there. I have no idea of the conditions around it like what allows me to qualify for it. And so that’s a curiosity that I have, you know, for folks who are listening because also you mentioning medical insurance, as I know probably most therapists in Canada and the United States, we either get coverage through your partner, or you have to pay an arm and a leg.

[00:13:46] Americans already pay an arm or leg. We know that. But this is something I’ve noticed in my own company is like going to look at insurance for our business. It’s so expensive, or it’s so difficult to find someone who will cover a company with four people in it, that every time I just give up.

[00:14:04] Right. But what I’m hearing is not having that. In my case, I have coverage, but if somebody doesn’t have that kind of coverage, that’s important to get. And then there’s this critical illness, which could be that lump-sum disability. So for people who are listening who, like me, are starting to have words swirling around their head of like, Oh, do I have that?

[00:14:22] I think I have that. Wait, how do I get that? Where do you suggest people start with starting to assess their insurance coverage and think about their options of what they need given their situation and what they’re able or willing to pay every month? I’m sure we could all pay thousands per month in insurance if we wanted to.

[00:14:42] Aviva: It’s great that you bring that up because I just did a post on that, where I said, Google is great. And these days I find people come to me and they have Googled; they have checked out some basic information. But I always say it’s so important, especially when you’re dealing with money matters, but anything that is an important thing that you’re checking out,

[00:15:04] You need to speak to a specialist because Google gives some good basic information, but it doesn’t tell you what to be aware of, what to watch out for, what the actual situation is when you’re dealing day to day, whether it’s dealing with a health issue or dealing with the insurers, speaking with a specialist that deals with this all the time, they know what to set you up with.

[00:15:31] They know which policy to recommend. They can assess where your gaps are like you were saying, oh, you’re thinking about, Oh, where your gaps are. So, speaking with a specialist and whether you get a recommendation from a friend or a family member, just speak to somebody that deals with this day to day.

[00:15:51] And I always say as well, speak to an independent advisor, not someone that’s tied to, let’s say, just one company. Whether it’s Sun Life, which here in Canada is. One of the biggest providers, right? So they can only offer Sunlight’s products, but other companies may have different coverage or different options.

[00:16:13] So speak to an independent advisor that can check things out for you in the, in the best way and give you the best advice. But don’t try to do it by yourself. Like I know some people who have approached me that did it by themselves and there are things to be aware of. It’s just good to speak to a specialist.

[00:16:33] Linzy: And that’s helpful information because that’s a question that was arising for me as we were talking is, yeah, are there fully independent advisors? That’s something that we’ve talked about in this podcast before and something I talk to whenever my students are to talk about personal finance, which is just outside of my lane,

[00:16:46] it’s not what I do, is to talk to an independent advisor, a financial advisor who’s only getting paid for their time with you, where it’s transparent as to how they’re getting paid. In the insurance industry then, I’m hearing there’s a parallel, like there’s folks who are basically working for a company, where they can only sell you their products, and then there’s independent folks.

[00:17:09] Can you tell us about the setup of this industry? 

[00:17:14] Aviva: There are those advisors that are set up with, and here in Canada, it’s more, Sun Life, Desjardins, that will only deal with those insurance companies. And that’s what we call captive agents because they can only deal with those companies. Then, there are also the banks here in Canada that will also sell insurance.

[00:17:34] And that’s also been a challenge for us as independent advisors, because, again, they’ve got… It’s been in the news, so I’m not saying any secrets here, but they’ve got their sales quotas 

[00:17:47] that they need to meet and they push certain agendas. And that’s why I was saying, get a recommendation from either a family or friends on an independent advisor.

[00:17:57] Cause you want someone trustworthy. You want someone that’s going to look out for your best interests. Like I know. I work with five, or six companies, and then some other smaller niche companies when it’s people that are harder to insure and need a special type of coverage. But my loyalty is not to the insurance company, it’s to my clients.

[00:18:20] And that’s also important because you want to know that you’re looked after. You want to make them feel that it’s something that you have, confidence in your advisor, and that they’re looking out for you. And like you were saying before, Oh, I have a disability, but I don’t know what it is. So the thought that ran in my head was: where’s the advisor that sold you the policy? 

[00:18:45] Linzy: It’s a great question. 

[00:18:46] Aviva: Why aren’t you doing annual reviews or even every two to three years so that you know what you have. If your situation changes you can then reassess. Either reduce the coverage, increase the coverage, or change the coverage, but it’s important, because life changes so quickly these days, to review your coverage every, at least every two to three years. 

[00:19:10] Linzy: Yes, that’s an interesting point as you said this. I think the term, did you say it’s captive agents, is hilariously tragic. It makes me think about pirates for some reason. But yeah, being captive, even if they’re trying to do the best they can for you, they have very limited things that they can offer you.

[00:19:28] So for independent insurance agents then, how are you paid? If I went to see you, would I pay you a fee for your time? Do you still get certain amounts from certain products, but you just have a much wider array of products that you can offer? How does that work?

[00:19:43] Aviva: So I’d say about 80 percent of the time, I get paid by the insurance company. So again, we’re paid the same amount. Doesn’t matter which company we’re going to. But again, the reason I work with these top six companies that I do work with is because they’re well established, they’ve got a great reputation, they’ve got good pricing, and it does change year over year. A lot of what I do is based on getting the best pricing for my clients. But that’s why I work with those top companies. They pay me, but it’s not like I get paid more by one company than another.

[00:20:21] So I get paid by commission. The other 20 percent of the time I’m brought in as a consultant. So, if somebody has multiple policies, if somebody wants an independent review where they know somebody is going to be impartial, then I do charge a fee, and then I just get the information about their insurance, and then offer my opinion on how it’s set up.

[00:20:47] I also tell them, you know, what the situation is in terms of who the beneficiaries are, what value there is, if they can get a better policy at this point. But mostly if you’ve got a pretty old policy, you don’t cancel it. You hold onto it. So most of my business is based on commission, not fee-based.

[00:21:11] That’s how we’re different than the investment advisors. But then I do have a small portion that’s consulting. 

[00:21:17] Linzy: Okay, but you also don’t have a quota. You’re not trying to sell a certain amount of XYZ, and don’t have pressure on you for that. Yeah, and it’s such a helpful thing to mention, and it’s an unfortunate part of the financial services industry, especially for folks in my audience, like folks in the therapy space, where it’s like this is already an area where we’re not loving having to engage.

[00:21:40] This is not our happy place. Then to have to navigate like who is trustworthy and who’s offering me a full range of options versus who’s telling me that they’re offering me full range, but there’s like three things they can sell me and they’re going to get more money if they sell me this one opposed to this one.

[00:21:55] It’s, an unfortunate is maybe like a nice soft way to put it. Part of this world, right? And I think for many therapists and health practitioners, It’s a great reason to avoid it, right? The fact that it’s like, I don’t know who to talk to. I don’t know who I can trust. I don’t know. This person’s saying things, do they have my best interest at heart?

[00:22:14] Are they just trying to make a sales quota? It does make it, uh, intimidating space to step into. In addition to the fact that there’s a whole bunch of jargon and terms that we don’t know or understand. It’s a scary world to navigate, Aviva.

[00:22:27] Aviva: Yes, yes. And that is one of my biggest challenges because insurance is not fun. It’s not sexy. So how do you motivate people? How do you help people? How do you get them to trust you? So, a lot of it is a personality match as well. And the fact that there aren’t a lot of female financial advisors.

[00:22:48] I’ve been focusing the last few years on helping women in business. And I don’t know how many of your networks are female, but a lot of the females that I speak with don’t connect well with male advisors. They are just coming at it from a different standpoint. Like the fact that I’ve got kids, that I’m working, and built my own business as well,

[00:23:12] I can relate to women in business, in a unique way than a male advisor. And it’s like 80 percent male advisors, 20 percent female advisors. And we just handle things differently. So just connecting, it doesn’t mean that none of the female therapists have a male advisor that they like.

[00:23:33] But if somebody is questioning or struggling or not matching up personality-wise, better to find somebody that you do, feel comfortable with. And that’s a big part of it. If you have that conversation and you feel comfortable, you start building that trust and it might take time.

[00:23:50] Like I’ve had people that will put through business with me within a few weeks, and then a few months, and then a few years. So, it’s just being patient and, and making it work. 

[00:24:02] Linzy: Yes. And it’s the same thing in the therapy world, and we’re used to being on the receiving end of this, which is that it’s all about fit. Right? Like, as you’re talking, I’m thinking about my world too, and, people who join Money Skills for Therapists, like my course that I teach, we just had somebody join today, we were like taking a look at his behavior, and he’s been on my list for three years, right?

[00:24:19] So it took three years for him to decide, yep, this is somebody that I like, that I want to learn from, this is the right time, I’m ready to do this work. And it’s the same for therapists, like when clients come to us, right? Like, they’re assessing us for fit so we’re very familiar with the concept of fit.

[00:24:31] And it’s nice to hear you say that this can also be part of your relationship with your insurance advisor, right? Fit is important, you need to trust them. You need to feel like they get you in your life circumstances. And I do still feel and see in the financial sector, And I count the insurance sector as part of this.

[00:24:49] Some of that, like, oh, don’t you worry, little lady, kind of attitude towards women. And it’s so infuriating, and it can stop us in our tracks when we encounter somebody like that. And so, for folks listening, you know, what I’m hearing is, Aviva is saying what we would also say to clients, find a good fit for you.

[00:25:05] Find somebody who you can trust enough to have these conversations, to get insurance set up, and as you said earlier, do it before you need it. Do it before it’s really on your mind, right? It’s one of these things to do in advance. So for folks listening today, Aviva, what is some advice that you can give for them to walk away with from our conversation?

[00:25:29] Aviva: So, sometimes people think insurance, like one of the other challenges that I come across or questions that people say is insurance. It’s just too expensive for me. I don’t know if I can afford it. First, there are options that can be less expensive, whether it’s getting insurance for a shorter term as opposed to a longer term.

[00:25:50] I always say to cover off at least part of the risk. So if you can’t afford all of the coverage that you do need based on the assessment that you’ve done. gotten, then at least cover off part of the risk. If you can’t do it for an extended for a 20-year term, do it for a 10-year term. Like, at least cover off a portion of your risk, because the truth is none of us have a crystal ball.

[00:26:18] We never know what’s going to happen. But at least if you cover off the risk of the next 10 years if you cover off 250,000 instead of a million dollars of coverage. It’s something for yourself, for your family. So that would be one thing. Another thing is to be aware that AI today is playing a really big role in insurance.

[00:26:42] And so things have gotten easier. You were saying people are overwhelmed. They really don’t know what to do. But the truth is, it’s gotten simpler to do insurance. For certain levels of coverage, you don’t have to do blood work. And you can get coverage without meeting with a nurse. You just have to answer a bunch of questions.

[00:27:02] And so it’s gotten easier to get insurance these days. So that’s a plus, something positive that came out of COVID. And the third thing is setting up your insurance policy is important. But as we were just talking about. It’s just as important to have an advisor that you know you can rely on and that will be there for you and that you get the right type of coverage. I did have a case years back where this lady was the sister of a client and she came to me and she said well, I got this critical illness coverage. Can you take a look at it?

[00:27:40] And it was called… It was weird. I’ve never seen it before… women’s critical illness, and basically it only covered women’s conditions, and it only gave you a certain payout if you went into hospital. It was very restrictive, so that’s where I showed her that she could get a much better policy for almost the same price that would cover her a lot better. So, covering off to getting the right kind of policy that will pay out.

[00:28:10] It’s not just getting coverage. It’s getting the right coverage. Make sure that you’ll be able to claim that it’s a good company and that you have an advisor who will support you. So, getting the coverage, and taking that next step, like you’re saying, is so important to do is great, but do it in the right way and, and get the right coverage so that when there is a claim, or if there is a claim, you can benefit from it.

[00:28:35] Linzy: I love that first point, which I would distill down to something is better than nothing. I do think that it can be intimidating, and lots of folks in my world are perfectionists, right, and we want to be able to do it perfectly, and if we can’t do it perfectly, then sometimes we don’t want to do it at all.

[00:28:54] But what I’m hearing is, yeah, if you can’t afford that million dollars, that’d be really nice, still 200, 000 is going to be helpful if a situation arises, you know, where that payout needs to happen. So that’s very helpful because I think that, yeah, it’s easy to go into that black and white.

[00:29:09] But this is just to make life easier, if the worst should happen, so that, you know, yeah, just more ease is what I’m hearing. It’s not going to solve the problem, but you’re definitely going to be happy to have 200,000 if something happens rather than zero.

[00:29:24] Aviva: As opposed to nothing, yeah. And I sometimes call that, doing it the salami way. So, you can’t necessarily eat the whole salami, but you can take a few slices, get some of it, and then in a year or two, once you’re used to paying those payments, okay, maybe your income has grown, you can take on a bit more. So do it more comfortably.

[00:29:47] Linzy: I have never heard do the salami way. It makes no sense to me, but I like it. I appreciate it. So, Aviva, thank you so much for coming and talking to us about this very not sexy, very not fun, but stability is great. We love it. And especially for folks listening, I know sometimes talk with folks about motivating themselves around money and part of it is connecting what’s not working. The what if. And what I’m hearing here is it’s being real about the fact that something can happen, and life doesn’t always go as planned, right? And like, you might be healthy now, but we don’t know what’ll happen in a year or two. Part of what I, I think, want folks to think about today is like, just think about taking care of their future self, even if everything seems fine now.

[00:30:34] It’s a huge favor that you can do to your future self by getting insurance lined up today and making sure you have the right insurance coverage is what I’m hearing as well today, rather than wishing you had done it 10 years from now. So, to that end, Aviva, where can folks find you to learn more from you?

[00:30:50] Aviva: Ah, so, I am more on LinkedIn than on Facebook, but I’m on Facebook as well. I do have a website, insuranceinvolved. ca, and yeah. You can find me there.

[00:31:06] Linzy: Great, perfect. So it’s 

[00:31:07] Insuranceevolved. ca and we’ll put that link in the show notes for folks to poke around. Get excited about insurance. Let’s all get coverage. It’ll be a group project. So thank you, thank you so much, Aviva, for coming on the podcast today.

[00:31:20] Aviva: Thank you so much for having me, Linzy. 

[00:31:36] Linzy: My conversation with Aviva has been reflecting on my insurance situation and how easy it is, of course, for us to avoid the things that are not fun, that we don’t understand, where we’re not sure who to get help from. You know, I think about my insurance, and although my partner and I are amply insured, I wonder if we’re overinsured, and do I have the right kind of coverage in case I get ill.

[00:32:02] So for me, it’s opened a lot of questions today. I have some investigating to do. Probably need to contact a new insurance agent, like we were talking about, an independent insurance agent. And so, if you’re listening today and noticing the same thing, that this is an area of your life that you have not spent very much time and energy on, especially if, as Aviva mentioned, you are healthy now.

[00:32:26] Now is a really enjoyable time to either get insurance for the first time or to look into the coverage that you have. It’s not exciting. Sometimes it has to get us thinking about things that are scary to think about, like us getting sick or dying or a partner getting sick or dying. But it’s one of these things that our future selves will be extremely grateful,

[00:32:45] should it ever happen that we’re going to have to use these insurance policies. So maybe we can make this a team project, a group project, Money Skills for Therapists Listers, that we can all go away now and look at our insurance and make sure that we have the coverage that we need to take care of ourselves and our families into the future.

[00:33:02] I think it is a very, very worthwhile project. So thank you to Aviva for coming on the podcast today. You can follow me on Instagram at moneynutsandbolts and if you are enjoying the podcast, please share it with your colleagues and your friends. Tell them about the podcast. We’re having conversations here about finances and money and therapy that are not happening in other spaces.

[00:33:24] I’m really happy about that. I’m really proud of that. And so if you have someone in your life who would benefit from being part of these conversations, please tell them about the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.