Meet Dr. Traci Williams

[00:00:00] Traci: For therapists especially, we pour into other people, that’s just what we do. And sometimes we neglect to remember that we are people too, and we have to pour into ourselves. So yes, you are deserving to have the life that you want.

[00:00:29] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

[00:01:05] Linzy: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today, my guest is Dr. Traci Williams. Traci is a financial therapist. She’s a clinical psychologist. And today we dig into financial therapy. What is financial therapy? What does she see in her, her practice around financial therapy? What are all the factors that can influence our relationship with money?

[00:01:28] And I get pretty specific with Traci asking her about exactly what financial therapy looks like because as a therapist, I have a big respect and appreciation for therapy, and financial therapy is pretty new. We talk about it’s a pretty new type of therapy in the space. It’s kind of a baby therapy modality.

[00:01:46] It’s been around for about 10 years. And, today Traci and I dig into what that looks like.

[00:01:51] We talk about the stories that we all absorb around money and what to do to start to shift your relationship with money, shift your mindset, and grow your skills. 

[00:02:02] And since we’re talking about our relationship to money today and all those emotional pieces, I want to mention my free mini-course, The Secret to Getting Unstuck in Your Finances. So if you find that some of the ways that Traci and I talking about today, you feel stuck when it comes to managing your business finances, you know you want to do something about it, but you just kind of never get around to it,

[00:02:23] The key is that your relationship with money needs to change. So if you’re ready to shift your mindset and get rid of those negative beliefs and emotions around money, you can check out my free mini-training, The Secret to Getting Unstuck in Your Finances. This is a quick and powerful first step to building a new relationship with money that is essential to getting your finances in order.

[00:02:41] It’s a series of short videos that walk you through step by step as well as a worksheet to get you in touch with your relationship with money. You can check it out for free using the link in the show notes. That’s The Secret to Getting Unstuck in Your Finances. Mini training. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Traci Williams.

[00:02:58] So Traci, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:03:01] Traci: Hi, it’s nice to be here. 

[00:03:02] Linzy: It’s nice to have you here. I’m excited to have you on the podcast today for a few reasons. One of them is that you are a financial therapist, which is still a pretty small world. Does that feel fair or accurate to say that it’s still a pretty niche little space, financial therapy?

[00:03:22] Traci: Yeah, in terms of the lifespan of therapy as a profession, it’s been a long time, right? And then financial therapy has only really existed as its niche for about the past 10 years or so and has gained a lot of traction over the past couple of years. So yeah, we’re babies if you look at the grand scale.

[00:03:45] Linzy: Sure, in the grand scale of things… which is funny though, because when you just said therapy has been around for a long time, I was like, has it, though? I feel like all of this… all the stuff that we’re doing is a hundred years old or even just only slightly more. So, yeah… 

[00:03:59] Traci:  In the way that we know of it.

[00:04:01] Linzy: Yeah. So financial therapy is relatively new, and it’s such a rich area of work because I know for myself, that when I was in therapy, my kind of thought for myself was when I burned out of therapy, which was my plan… I wanted to be, at that time some financial therapists do bankruptcy coaching.

[00:04:20] It was this very specific kind of financial coaching. I don’t even know if that’s the right word for it, but it was very much about helping folks who had gone through bankruptcy, get a budget going, very practical kind of stuff. And that’s what I remember existing about 10 years ago,

[00:04:34] When I was coming into the therapy space as a baby therapist, financial therapy was something else. I think it’s something that didn’t exist when I started. So can you tell folks who are listening, what makes financial therapy financial therapy?

[00:04:49] Traci: The way that I describe it, financial therapy is where we help people shift how they think about, feel about, and behave with money. And that can look very different for different people, depending on their financial situation.

[00:05:06] A lot of how we behave with money is tied to our childhood experiences with money in our families of origin, the experiences that we have had growing up with money. A financial therapist can be a financial professional, a financial planner, or a financial advisor, who has gotten training in mental health as well as financial health, and financial therapy.

[00:05:36] Or it could be someone like me. I’m a psychologist who has additional training in personal finance and financial therapy. 

[00:05:46]  Linzy:Interesting. I didn’t realize that there are those two avenues in the profession. I assumed coming from therapy myself, that it would be therapists who have that, like, full therapeutic training who then get this additional training, right, this focus on money.

[00:06:01] But you’re saying that folks, who are financial professionals can also get certified going the other way? How much training is that for them to go from being a financial professional to being a financial therapist? 

[00:06:13] Traci: Well, it’s kind of about the same training that it took for me to understand how money works, and wills and estates, and personal financial management.

[00:06:23] So I think it’s about the same on both sides. 

[00:06:25] Linzy: Right. Yeah. And is it kind of like a diploma size of work? How much training did you have to do to go from being, in your case, a psychologist to a financial therapist? 

[00:06:37] Traci: Yeah, there are a couple of paths that you can take. So I did the certification in financial therapy through the Financial Therapy Association. That is a self-study program. They say that it usually takes about six to nine months to do. It includes reading textbooks, and college-level textbooks. As well as a video series that they have. And then you have an exam and you have to show that you’ve done a certain number of hours of contact, and so on.

[00:07:07] That’s one route that people can take. Another is the accredited financial counselor program. And that has its requirements. Some people do a master’s degree in financial social work, or behavioral finance, or a diploma, and they go about it that way. So there are a couple of avenues to get there.

[00:07:33] Linzy: Yes, I feel that’s very therapisty at the end of the day. There are like 12 ways to get to this one place and kind of do very similar work to the person next to you, but slightly differently. With the work that you do then, Traci, I’m curious, what do you see as all the different factors that come into influencing how people act the way that they do with money?

[00:07:55] Traci: Yeah, that is a complex question to break down and answer. The way that I think about it, personal finance is personal. Literally every single person on this planet touches money at some point in time, but each of us has such a unique experience in our own lives and with money. So our experiences, our relationship with money, are going to be unique.

[00:08:24] For some people, it could look like, I experienced a traumatic event growing up that impacted our family financially, whether that is housing insecurity or food insecurity. If you think of the boomer generation, if you think about people who’ve experienced war, all of those things impact you financially.

[00:08:50] It can also look like, on the other end of the spectrum, having a windfall of money, and all of a sudden you’re very anxious about what to do with all of that money, and what it means for you to have that money when the people around you might not. It could look like people who are struggling with getting out of and staying out of debt, who are living paycheck to paycheck.

[00:09:17] We know that about half of Americans who have households of 100,000 or more are living paycheck to paycheck, which is a surprising statistic for a lot of people. And so those tend to be the conversations that I am having most often.

[00:09:36] Linzy: Yeah, and I mean that generational piece I think is so helpful to name because as you’re talking about, you know, folks who’ve gone through war, you know, there’s so many impacts and migration like there are all these things that deeply impact folks’ finances, and what I see, and I’m curious your experience with this, too, is like that also gets passed on to next generations.

[00:09:57] Sometimes folks are carrying these experiences, these traumas that are the generation up, right? It’s the previous generation’s experience of money. I’m curious, how often do you see that where somebody comes in to work with you, and as you start to untangle their relationship with money, there is that kind of generational legacy stuff that they’re experiencing?

[00:10:20] Traci: Most people don’t realize where their stuff comes from. And so I might ask, well, you’re struggling with this aspect of your personal finances. Where does that come from for you? And usually, the answer is, “Well, I don’t know.” Because we don’t realize that the experiences that we had in our families of origin or the conversations that were had around us have shaped how we think and how we behave.

[00:10:49] I’m a cognitive behavioral focused therapist and I have a specialization in family systems. So I usually ask questions, okay, if you are anxious about looking at your bills, for instance, when you are looking at your bills, what are some of the things that you’re thinking?

[00:11:11] The thoughts that you’re having around your bills… Do those sound familiar to you? Is there anyone who said something similar? And that usually starts to connect the dots for people. And then they come to realize that, oh yeah, there is this piece that I didn’t realize. Also, just looking at family history, and using genograms is something that some financial therapists do to figure out if there are patterns that we may not recognize.

[00:11:41] Linzy: Absolutely. And I think with money, it makes so much sense to be doing that digging because it makes you think too about the silence around money. And I’m going to kind of develop this thought out loud, but we absorb and inherit all these things from a family of origin, as you say just things that we might have overheard or observed.

[00:12:00] There’s this saying of kids are excellent observers and lousy interpreters. They take in everything, but they’ll make meaning of it that sometimes it’s like not at all what was going on or not what their parents would want them to think or believe. But, all of these messages that we absorb.

[00:12:14] And yet, what I’ve noticed is there’s such a lack of actual conversation around money that rarely have we had the opportunity to realize, Oh, this thing that I’m doing, this is what it is, first of all, and this is where it’s coming from and this is why it was there in the first place. There’s so much silence around this aspect of being a human and of our lives where we might Be starting to have more conversations around other parts of emotional well-being, but money is still something that usually we don’t have a lot of language around and we haven’t talked about with anybody.

[00:12:47] Traci: Yeah, and that makes me think of my graduate training. You mentioned kids hearing things and not necessarily being able to interpret things, but absorbing the message. How many people have graduate training where you heard things like “therapists don’t make a lot of money,” or “We don’t get in this for the money; we get in this because we care.”

[00:13:11] When I was in grad school. I heard on multiple occasions about having a bleeding heart. And so those messages then get internalized and can affect your money mindset, even as you’re developing your own business. 

[00:13:29] Linzy: Yeah. Absolutely. And something I see as well as those messages are usually layered on kind of some predispositions we probably already have to be going into that work in the first place, right?

[00:13:40] Like already folks who are going into the therapy space are caring people who want to help others. And then, yeah, there’s that hum around you, right? That message, which is about money. And yet often, I would say in graduate school, they don’t say that it’s about money. But it’s like this, just like real emphasis on doing it from the goodness of your heart, sacrificing yourself sometimes, making up for systemic injustice and historical injustice.

[00:14:07] It’s all these things, which at the end of the day, mean you can’t get paid well for this work, or you can’t ask to get paid well for this work, because there’s always other more important things. So to me that seems like there’s still almost a silence there. But we know what they’re saying.

[00:14:20] Yes. We know the subtext under the text. 

[00:14:22] Traci: Yeah. For some people, that internalization can lead to experiencing guilt around charging what you deserve to charge, or, for people who want to go into private pay practice, experiencing guilt and shame or even rejection from peers or just in general starting to make money in your practice and not knowing how to manage that money or what that money means to you.

[00:14:51] Linzy: Yes, I think that these are the all too common experiences that we get. Unfortunately. Coming out of the education that we’ve done. So I’m curious to hear about, some of the transformations that you walk through with your clients. Because I was a trauma therapist. That was my orientation.

[00:15:08] So like trauma, EMDR, parts work. I guess I kind of know how I work with folks. Still. I know we’re, you know, we all have our go-to interventions, right, and ways of framing things. I’m curious for you, coming from a CBT lens and family systems, where is often the end goal that you’re going with folks?

[00:15:29] How do folks know, and how do you know when they’re done their work with you? What does it look like in your work with a client? 

[00:15:36] Traci: Yeah, I always start with that magical question. So I wave my magic wand and things are better in your life. What’s different? And from there, we shape goals.

[00:15:49] Usually with my financial therapy clients, they want to improve their financial situation. For them, that might mean having a plan for reducing their debt or paying off their debt entirely. It might mean having a budget in place and a plan for saving for their future. It might mean, being better able to communicate around money, whether it is with just other people in general or in a relationship.

[00:16:24] So I do have some couples that I am working with around that. And so we have very specific goals. But for us to get there, we do have to take a look at the emotional side to the equation, as well as the thoughts that are getting in their way.

[00:16:44] Linzy: Yeah, and I think that’s the beauty, right, of having those therapeutic skills with financial stuff because I think so often folks have had the experience of sitting down and trying to make a budget.

[00:16:55] And it’s so, so hard, or they make a budget and then they never look at it again, or trying to set a goal to, as you say, like pay down debt or think about maybe paying their student debt sooner, and they just don’t get there. Like it doesn’t work. 

[00:17:09] Traci: Yes, exactly. And they don’t realize why it’s not working and from my perspective, It’s likely not working for a reason and so part of my job is to figure out what that reason is. 

[00:17:23] Linzy: So in your work with folks, and I’m asking these questions partially because I also want folks who are listening to start to think about, could I benefit from financial therapy, right?

[00:17:31] Because I do education. I have courses, I’m obviously bringing my therapeutic knowledge into the work that I do but doing actual therapy around money, I think is something that most people would benefit from. Right? Just like we benefit from all types of therapy. So, you know, I’m curious to hear more about the work.

[00:17:50] So folks who are listening can also think about this: is financial therapy for me? How long does your work with somebody tend to look like? How long would a course of financial therapy tend to be? 

[00:18:01] Traci: Yeah, so from what I have seen thus far if you stick with the traditional expectation around CBT, about 8 to 12 sessions, that seems to fit for most people. I think financial coaching can be effective for people who just want something that is a set plan.

[00:18:22] This is what we’re working on. This is what we’re doing but if you want a deeper dive, then it will take longer so I recommend one or the other, depending on what people are showing up with and what their expectations are. 

[00:18:36] Linzy: Yeah, certainly. Sometimes I think we want the shortcut.

[00:18:39] I see this with sometimes the folks that I work with where it’s like, but I just want to be able to do the thing. I just want to be able to finally like spreadsheet or budget, but it’s kind of the way out is through, right? So depending on what you have to go through, sometimes making space, either in your existing therapy, if you have a therapist who’s able to help you hold these financial pieces alongside the emotional pieces, or with a financial therapist, when you say eight to 12 sessions, Traci, I’m actually like, that’s great.

[00:19:04] That’s no time at all. If you think about the impact that it has on your life, because as you say, everyone touches money at some point in their life if they’re not touching money, then possibly they’re being financially abused, which is a different kind of financial issue, right, but it’s such a part of all of our lives.

[00:19:20] And something that I’ve been connecting with more and more lately is when we do this work, whatever that work looks like, whatever we need to be doing for our situation, you make that change forever. Right? Like that is a going forward. This is the new way; these are the new skills; this is the new relationship.

[00:19:36] And even if you do find yourself reverting into old things, you’re able to be like, oh, there’s that thing again. Okay, I know what to do when this thing comes up. I’m a big fan of change. I feel like that’s a prerequisite to being a therapist, but it’s so powerful to do this work and do it as soon as you can because then you’re going to have the effects of that for decades.

[00:19:54] Traci: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:19:57] Linzy: So, for folks who are listening, I’m curious from your perspective, if they know that they struggle with money mindset issues, negative stories, they’ve had some of these negative experiences that you’re talking about of financial precarity, trauma around money, where do you suggest people start to shift their money mindset to having more positive relationships?

[00:20:19] Traci: Yeah. The Financial Therapy Association has a directory. And so if you want to work with a financial therapist, that’s a good place to start. Folks on the directory have all types of experiences and backgrounds, so you want to make sure that it is someone who is appropriately trained and Is a good fit for you.

[00:20:42] That’s one. Two, if you’re not really in the space to be in financial therapy right now, or it’s not within your budget, or whatever the case might be, there are things that you can start to do. So you can start to look at, okay, my financial picture: what exactly does that look like? And that’s the absolute basics.

[00:21:06] So how much money am I making? A lot of people don’t know how much money they’re making. How much money am I spending? Where is my spending going? Can I look at the last three months of my bank statements to see where that money is going? I like to encourage people to dream. So if I dream, and I look towards my future self, five years, 10 years, 15 years from now.

[00:21:33] What do I want that future self to be doing? And what do I need to do with my money now to get there? Those are some simple things that people can do to start to make small changes. 

[00:21:47] Linzy: Sometimes, I gotta help people understand the difference between a picture of how they’re just getting by and a picture of their dream client. I ask them to think about what they really want and what their ideal client would look like, instead of just settling for whatever comes along.

[00:22:08] What brings you joy? Sometimes we’ve fallen so far into overworking or believing that we’re never going to have money or we have so much stress that we can’t even imagine what that positive picture looks like. But I feel I’ve recently become a little bit born again around if you do some hard work now. It’s amazing what can happen later, and not kind of giving in and being honest with yourself about what you want.

[00:22:33] Because I think it’s easy to give up.

[00:22:35] Traci: Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, two things. One, we live in a society where instant gratification is embedded in the things that we do. And so we are channeled towards looking at what we want right now and getting the things thing that we want right now. We’re not thinking about the future. The decisions that you make with your money today most definitely impact what your future is going to look like, but you’re fighting against a society that wants you to spend right now.

[00:23:07] So that’s one thing. And the other piece is that for therapists, especially, we pour into other people. That’s just what we do. And sometimes we neglect to remember that we are people, too, and we have to pour into ourselves. So yes, you are deserving to have the life that you want. 

[00:23:31] You know, we are in such an instant gratification culture, and everything is so easy. Sometimes if I need something that I know I can’t get locally and I look on Amazon, I’m like, this will be here tomorrow morning!

[00:23:42] How is this even possible? Like it’s like somebody is taking it off the warehouse shelf before I’ve even pushed send, you know it’s incredible. But it does mean that we are so used to now not experiencing kind of like friction or being able to be like, yes, I’m putting this in now for this bigger thing later.

[00:24:02] But with money, that’s how it works, right? We do have that cumulative effect that happens from what we’re doing today adds up for tomorrow. Like it compounds over time. 

[00:24:11] Traci: Yeah. Yeah. Whether that is Yeah. Compounding debt or compounding assets. Yeah. 

[00:24:18] Linzy: True. Yes. Compounding works in both directions.

[00:24:20] And can you speak to that a little bit for folks who are like, wait, what is she talking about?

[00:24:24] Traci: Yeah. So basically, like I said, everything that you do with your money now impacts you in the future. Let’s just say you have debt on your credit card. You’ve been spending on Amazon, going to Target five times a week, and buying coffee 12 times a week.

[00:24:40] I don’t know. And you’re doing your minimum payments, you’re not necessarily paying your card all the way off over time because of your interest rate, the amount that you end up paying off, in the long run, is so much bigger than it would have been if you were able to just pay it off when you immediately made those charges.

[00:25:04] And what ends up happening, the cost to you of having to pay off an even larger amount means that you are sacrificing the benefit of having your money go to work for you and compound and grow over time for you. So that’s just an example. 

[00:25:23] Linzy: Yeah. And I think that’s one of those great examples of understanding how the system that we have to navigate works helps, right?

[00:25:33] I’ve seen peoples social media posts before saying like, well, thank goodness I took quadratics in high school for this quadratic season, you know, during tax time. Cause it’s like, we learn all these things that are so abstract

[00:25:45] That, you know, help us learn how to learn, but aren’t practical. You don’t need to do quadratic equations in your adult life, but you certainly need to be able to think about, Do I pay this debt down first? How quickly do I want to pay it down? If I put money away instead, is that more strategic?

[00:26:00] We do have to make all these types of decisions, and yet we’re not taught how these things work. So part of what I’m hearing from you is like just starting to understand some of the workings of the system that we’re in, is a big part of starting to be able to make different decisions, better decisions.

[00:26:18] Traci: Yeah, the people who I see have an advantage have had someone show them the ropes around financial literacy. Just that knowledge of how money works can mean so much for what your financial picture looks like. And it is possible to learn. I let people know that I am an alien from another planet when it comes to the world of personal finance.

[00:26:44] I had to learn this language just like maybe you do. And so I know what it is like to start from scratch and be completely confused. And it is possible to learn.

[00:26:56] 

[00:26:56] Linzy: Absolutely. And I think it’s really helpful for folks to hear that because sometimes the story that I hear people tell is like, I’m not a money person.

[00:27:04] No, I’m not good at math. I’ve never been a money person. I’ve always been the spender or like my partner often, hopefully knock on wood, they partnered with somebody who is on top of managing money. So as a couple, there’s kind of being some management, but there can be that really fixed idea of I don’t know how to do this.

[00:27:20] Traci: This that used to be me. Yeah. Believe it or not. 

[00:27:23] Linzy: I’m curious. What changed for you? 

[00:27:27] Traci: Yeah. So I used to be the, I’m not a money person. The Klontz brothers, they are psychologists, they’re financial psychologists, and they came up with the idea of money scripts. There are four scripts; we fall into one of the categories.

[00:27:43] There is no good or bad. They just are. And so for me, I was money-avoidant. That was my script growing up. I became a psychologist because I wanted to help other people. The whole thing that we’ve talked about; is not in it for making money. And during the pandemic, I had an eye-opening experience as a therapist.

[00:28:06] At that time, I was working at the Children’s Hospital locally, and I was helping my families with not only their kids’ development but also how to get food and rent assistance. And I had some families who were riding out the pandemic shutdown in their vacation beach homes. So I was seeing two very different ends of the spectrum.

[00:28:30] And it made me realize that this money thing, it’s not just about dollars and cents. It is about so much more. We saw what insecurity looked like up close and personal. And it shifted, for me, into wanting to better understand my own money picture and making sure that I had things set up in place to take care of myself and my family.

[00:28:57] Linzy: And for you what was the first step in doing that, once you decided that you were gonna learn these things, even though this hadn’t been part of your identity before? 

[00:29:08] Traci: Yeah. Well, luckily for me, one of my closest friends, he’s a financial advisor. And so I immediately asked him, I was like, what do I do?

[00:29:17] And then I found the online financial personal finance community. One really good resource. There is a women’s personal finance Facebook group, and it’s really large. And I love that they exist, and I’ll be working with them next month. I joined and started reading… there were some really good intro to personal finance books that I recommend regularly.

[00:29:44] And that was my introduction. And I took it from there. 

[00:29:48] Linzy: Yeah, beautiful. I mean, there is so much information out there on personal finance it’s a universe unto itself. And I’ve even found for myself as I’m playing with some mortgage pay down strategies and stuff and I really do feel like I’m playing.

[00:30:01] I’m like, what does this feel like? Do I like this? Does this feel like a good place to put my money? Would I rather put it somewhere else? Just on mortgage pay down, there are so many people on YouTube doing education on different strategies and did it like, it’s just an almost overwhelming amount of resources out there.

[00:30:18] But certainly you could dip your toe into any little topic and have so much learning. Disclaimer, if you’re watching people on YouTube, watch a few people, and make sure you’re getting solid advice. Maybe run it by a professional before you make any big moves. But yeah, there is just such a wealth of information out there now that there didn’t used to be 30 years ago if you wanted to start learning about these things.

[00:30:39] Traci: Yes, so I am on social media. I post on TikTok, and I always say in my videos to be careful who you take advice from. Don’t take it from someone’s uncle here on TikTok because not all advice is created equal. Also, I like to put the caveat that if someone is berating their audience, that is not going to be good for your mental health.

[00:31:05] So you may want to stay away from them as well. 

[00:31:07] Linzy: Yes. Yes. Social media disclaimers. Not everybody is there for your well-being. Not everybody’s there for you. Yeah, so Traci, for folks who want to find you, maybe follow you on TikTok, where can they find you and follow you online? 

[00:31:24] Traci: Yeah. So I have two companies.

[00:31:26] Healthy Wealthy Roots is my media, social media company. And so I’m on TikTok on that name. The website for that company is healthywealthyroots. org. And then my private practice is Poui Consulting, P O U I. And you can find me on there as well.

[00:31:46] Linzy: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 

[00:31:49] Traci: Yeah. It was so much fun.

[00:31:50] I love talking about money.

[00:32:07] Linzy: Thinking about financial therapy, it occurs to me that money is one of those taboo topics. There’s a lot of silence around money. And I think everybody listening would probably agree that we like therapy. We think that therapy is a worthwhile way to spend some time and energy in your life. And it gets me thinking a little bit, if we could each do therapy, some therapy, on each of like the taboo topics, like if we each took some time to do eight sessions of therapy about sex, eight sessions of therapy about money, maybe eight sessions of therapy around

[00:32:42] Religion or politics… I don’t know, pick your taboos, that we’d all be better off for it, just taking some time to explore and be with these things and think about what we want our relationship to be. Notice what’s happening, and do that in a way that is depthful. What I have found with money is that it’s so easy in the financial space for people to talk about money, of course, as being purely skills, like it’s just numbers, whatever, and try to skip over

[00:33:09] this piece that Traci and I were talking about today, like all the history, the trauma, the family legacies that we inherit, the beliefs, the stories. But those things really shape our relationship with money and just thinking about what Traci was saying about imagining the future that you want, I also think that these things can get in the way of actually connecting with 

[00:33:31] the life that you want and what you want money to do for you. And I think so many of us could just default into continuing doing what we’re doing because it’s what we know, and almost a poverty of imagination around what our life could look like if we had money working for us. So, so much there.

[00:33:49] Lots to dig into. Anybody who’s listening, who thinks maybe financial therapy would be for them, I think you should do it. We all would benefit from having some focused support around money from a skilled professional. So I appreciate Traci coming on the podcast today. You can find me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts.

[00:34:10] And as always, I so appreciate your reviews on Apple Podcasts. They are the best way for other therapists and health practitioners to find the podcast and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening today.