Meet James Childress

[00:00:00] James: So that curiosity, that’s a great energy to have as a practice owner and a business owner is like being very curious about what’s going on. And having the data in front of you, whatever shape or form it might be, builds that curious energy, builds that inquisitive approach of looking into things because you sort of feel like there are things you can discover.

[00:00:24] Linzy: Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, where we answer this question: how can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists.

[00:00:49] Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is James Childress. James Childress is a CPA, a certified public accountant, and he focuses on helping group practice owners with strategic growth, while emphasizing patient outcomes, and creating financial stability and success for the owners, their supervisors, clinicians, and administrators.

[00:01:12] As you’ll hear in my conversation with James today, he has some really helpful wisdom that he brings in from the general business world, which, you know, in the therapy space, we don’t always get reached by these kind of like larger pieces of business wisdom, about being able to take information apart,

[00:01:28] take perspective on your information, about bias, recognizing your own biases as you’re running your practice. And what we talk about today really applies to group practice owners, but also applies to solo practice owners. Even when James and I dig in today to thinking about setting up so that, the analogy we use is that the machine doesn’t run too hot, right?

[00:01:46] You’re not like setting it up so your clinicians work so much that they’re burning out. As a solo practitioner, you are the clinician who is working for yourself and you want to make sure you’re setting yourself up so you’re not burning out. So looking at those bigger questions about creating a business that is sustainable, both financially but also energetically, respecting that the work that we do as therapists and health practitioners is based on finite energy.

[00:02:10] So there are lots of interesting highlights in my conversation today. Here is my interview with James Childress.

[00:02:32] Linzy: So James, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:34] James: So glad to be here. Thank you, Linzy.

[00:02:35] Linzy: Yeah, I’m excited to have you here. So James, for folks who are listening, tell us just a little bit about what you do so they can understand kind of your experience with working with therapists.

[00:02:46] James: Yeah. What I do for the private practice owners that we work with is we help them structure strategic plans for the growth of their business and help them ultimately to get out of the business what they want to get from the business. So, private practice is a little bit of a different animal in a lot of ways, but there’s still some very solid business concepts that can support what they’re doing.

[00:03:08] And we bring those to the table for our clients. And for me, I have a background that’s a little bit unusual, you know, I’ve gone through therapy myself and gotten some amazing things out of it. And so we also put all of that into the context… I consider what’s happening between therapists and their patients to be really just a sacred space, and there should be nothing that disrupts that, but everything that we can get from the business world that’s solid and reliable and can produce

[00:03:37] worthwhile results for our clients, we apply that in that context of making sure that sacred space is kept, the way it needs to be kept. 

[00:03:46] Linzy: I think that is a really important consideration because I do see sometimes folks from like the general business space, especially like the coaching kind of world, like the like grow, grow, grow, come into the therapy space and not understand what’s different about it and not understand that sacredness, but also the vulnerability that our clients have to us, you know, like our obligation as health professionals to really be mindful of our power.

[00:04:06] Lots of folks in the business world do not understand that balance that we have to strike and will give advice that actually is contrary to therapists’ codes of ethics. So it’s nice to hear how mindful you are about that piece of the work that we do.

[00:04:20] James: Yeah, we always treat it like a meeting of the minds. So, I’ve been through therapy myself, obviously, like I mentioned, but coming from the world, the ultimate goal is a synergy of what you see as the therapists and practice owners, and your ultimate needs and goals, and what we can gain from the business world.

[00:04:43] Because in a way, hitting certain targets requires the same techniques. it’s just that we don’t sort of want that hockey stick growth. It isn’t necessarily a function that, that is appropriate for private practice, but we can make some great things happen and growth is really not

[00:05:00] something to say no to. It’s uncontrolled growth, unsustainable growth. Those things are bad. And of course growth that’s not in the context of what the owner really wants from their practice.

[00:05:10] Linzy: Yeah. And that hockey stick growth, I’ve never heard that phrase before, but I can visualize it. I think what you’re describing is kind of like just that upward arc, like never ending upward growth, is not actually something that makes sense for practices, like private practices is what I’m hearing.

[00:05:25] James: Yeah, you don’t want that. I mean, and that’s in the business world, they’re trying to sort of light a fire with their product or service, and that can be great. I mean, it’s a sign that in the market, there are people who find this new product or service to be of amazing value, and it’s going viral in the business sense.

[00:05:44] But there’s some very key interrelationships between the admin side in a practice, the clinical side, there’s also some critical

[00:05:54] stress points, you know, in terms of window of tolerance, and compassion fatigue, and things like that. So it can… You can push that needle too far. You could do it in any business really that you can grow so quickly that it kind of falls apart because it’s not sustainable, but that threshold is a little bit more tight in, in private practice.

[00:06:15] So we have to be mindful of that.

[00:06:17] Linzy: Yeah, I would agree with that and I think, you know, a big part of the factor there that comes to mind for me is you’re working with emotional energy, and emotional resources, and that’s such a finite resource that people have. So for instance, like for group practice owners, and I’m sure folks listening, many folks have maybe worked for group practices and experienced this or worked for agencies where if you’re treated as though

[00:06:36] you have kind of endless emotional energy and you can do endless good sessions, then of course people are going to tell you to do seven sessions a day because that’s max profit for the business, right? Like on paper, that’s that hockey stick growth, right? It’s well, if everybody just did seven sessions a day, we’re going to be rich, but that is not possible, right?

[00:06:54] That’s way beyond what somebody can do. But the damage that can be done by folks running businesses and not really respecting the sacredness of the work, the limited emotional energy that folks have, and also they need that energy to live their lives and be well, can do a lot of damage to people who work for group practices when they’re treated as though they’re just like cogs in a machine rather than doing this really nuanced, high skill emotional work, which is what they’re actually doing when we’re talking about mental health therapists.

[00:07:23] Yeah.

[00:07:23] James: I like to use an analogy to sort of describe that, because it is very common for people to describe that as a well oiled machine, but even machines, like if we think about an engine is managing a very hot reaction, an internal combustion engine, and it has to keep that within a zone, and there’s a level where it’s so hot it’ll destroy itself, And there’s a level where it’s so cool, nothing’s actually happening that’s productive.

[00:07:54] And so, when we think about a well oiled machine, that’s a good analogy for any business. But we can’t ever ignore this fact that there’s this middle ground, there’s this balance point. And it’s going to be different for every business, and it’s going to be different for every product or service.

[00:08:11] And you have to create a bias within those balance points that keeps that internal combustion reaction safe and keeps it sustainable. The same thing happens in any business, but especially private practice. So how do we work with the clinicians? How do we help them? First off, I think the most critical thing there is be aware

[00:08:36] of how that reaction is going, and one of the things that the big business crowds that sort of enter into this space don’t do is they’re not mindful of that reaction, even though it’s very clearly the case. I mean, everything needs balance, you know? The atoms in our body need balance, and the orbits of the moon and stars and everything, there’s a certain balance there.

[00:08:59] Otherwise it all kind of falls apart. So yeah, acknowledging that balance is critical. You can’t get around that, and savvy business owners of any type will do that. But especially in private practice, it’s important.

[00:09:11] Linzy: Well, and what occurs to me when you’re saying that is, that is true of a group practice where somebody is trying to oversee a bigger machine, so to speak, and make sure that, they’re at a sustainable level, that the folks who are working for them are at a sustainable level.

[00:09:24] But it’s also true for solo practitioners, because I think solo practitioners, even though you’re one in the same, sometimes, you know, the part of us that’s running the business and wants to make a certain paycheck or sees opportunity and doesn’t want to say no to potential clients can be neglecting the part of you that is doing the work,

[00:09:39] and that is, to use your analogy, overheating, reaching an unsustainable point, right? And basically it’s almost like your boss self can burn out your clinician self if you’re not really being honest with yourself about the fact that you’re doing something that’s not sustainable.

[00:09:53] So I can see this applying to private practice in terms of group practice, but also solo practice. Yeah.

[00:10:00] James: Very much so. And in a way, with solo practitioners, that sort of threshold is a little bit thinner. A lot of the concern that a lot of solo practitioners have is, well, you know, what if I’m sick and I’m out for a week?

[00:10:15] How does that affect my income? What if I, you know, God forbid, want to take a vacation? Oh my gosh.What if I need some time away? Or, you know, what if I just, what if I’m away for training? So all these things sort of create this scenario where you actually have to stack the deck in advance.

[00:10:31] You have to plan this whole operation out to achieve a level of abundance that supports that biasing in the direction of you being in a space that’s safe for you as a practitioner, that reaction is cooled a little bit so that it can be sustained. One of the things I commonly find myself doing with the practice centers we work with is they’re very much in the moment people.

[00:10:58] Very mindful, and it’s a skill set they have for being with their patients. and all the other noise goes away. And that’s a fantastic thing. The counterpoint to that is thinking about the long term. You know, thinking about, okay, it’s not just this time I have right now with this patient. How do I structure this enterprise so it accomplishes what I need it to accomplish this week, this month,

[00:11:22] this year, this lifetime?

[00:11:23] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:11:25] James: And it’s sort of… So we think about those big picture items. Legacy, the lifetime effect they feel that they’ve had on the community around them and the people around them. And, okay, working backwards, what are the steps that need to happen now, so we can sustainably and reliably produce that result that they want?

[00:11:44] Because that will be the passion that drives everything forward.

[00:11:46] Linzy: The word that comes to mind for me there is a word that you used at the beginning, which is strategic, right? Like you help folks with strategic planning. And I have also found that therapists and health practitioners, like helper kind of folks and I’m, you know, for folks watching on YouTube, you’ll be able to see that I’m like putting my hand over my heart. For folks listening to the podcast,

[00:12:03] I’m putting my hand over my heart because they’re such heart led people, right? So present, so embodied, care so much. And as you said, that’s this beautiful gift to be able to just be with your client or your patient and really zero in on what they need in that moment and like, when I was a therapist, I remember it’s almost like I have, it’s like the matrix, you know, there’s all these things coming down around me of: oh, I’m noticing that little thing.

[00:12:25] And I’m noticing this, but I’m also remembering three sessions ago that was a little bit too much when we went there. And I’m not really reading that I should go there. It’s like the analysis that’s happening. All the information that you’re processing is so intense at that moment. And so, so much of our energy goes towards providing that great service and really holding the space for people, whether it’s with mental health work or with manual practitioner work, like really zooming in and listening to somebody’s body.

[00:12:47] But it’s hard to then also be zooming out and thinking of the big picture and thinking, okay, how am I structuring this so that, as you say, I have time off built in. So if I’m sick, it’s not a big deal. That’s kind of almost like it’s a different mode to be in. And most of us have not actually been taught how to be in that

[00:13:05] strategic mode. That’s certainly not part of our professional education to be strategic. We’re taught to be present and to deal with only what is right in front of us at that moment.

[00:13:15] James: Yeah, and thank God you do.

[00:13:17] Linzy: Yeah.

[00:13:17] James: You know, I’ve finished some sessions with my therapist, and I’m like, Is he going to go talk to someone else now after what he just kind of went through with me and, you know, the experience I had and, I know, he has methods for managing that. I think he understands better than I do, obviously, but yeah, it’s really sort of a hypervigilant state, for me being on the outside looking in.

[00:13:39] I’ll bring up things and I’ll be like, Hey, do you remember when we talked about this? And he’s like, yeah. He remembers all these things that we talked about. And I’m like, how does he keep all that stuff in his head? And how does he go from one session to another?

[00:13:49] Well, you know, all this stuff is being memorized, but yeah, it’s definitely sort of like stepping from truck and into a boat, you know, it’s like a very different sort of mindset to then think long term. But one of the inspiring things I’ve found for practice owners when they think long term, and especially when they start thinking about growth, is that switch between thinking about the patients you’re with right now and the patients that have not come

[00:14:12] yet. And so, often when we talk about private practice growth, we’re thinking about revenue and net income and owner compensation and them having a higher quality of life. All those wonderful things, but the rising tide that raises all boats is also one where if that practice grows, and it can provide more service to more people, the people who need help, who haven’t shown up yet,

[00:14:38] those ones we haven’t met yet, they can get that help.

[00:14:41] So, the growth accomplishes all those many things. I like to call it the faceless, nameless patient, and remind the practice owners who feel a little bit hesitant to jump into a growth initiative, that when they first started this whole thing, all they had was faceless, nameless patients.

[00:14:57] They had this sort of dream to serve people they had not met yet. And when they get those people in front of them, that one side of the brain sort of thinks, “Okay, these are my people, and these are the people I’m helping.” They’re the ones in front of me right now. And to step back and think about growing often means we start thinking a little bit about all the people we could help who we’ve never met yet, who are out there that If we create the capacity and we create a different strategic approach to what we’re doing, those people we have not met yet will then come and have the resources that we’re providing to them.

[00:15:29] Linzy: Yeah. I mean, that’s a really beautiful way to put that because I do think, too, sometimes therapists and health practitioners, you know, this might be too harsh of a phrase, but we can have a bit of a poverty of imagination where we’re like, no, these are my clients. These are the people that I help, and I have to do everything to take care of these people who happen to be here.

[00:15:48] But as you say, there’s always going to be more folks. Your next favorite client is only a month away, right? And they’re thinking about maybe reaching out to you now. But as you say, like…And I think about this, too, if you are somebody who has that spark to think about, I would like to do more.

[00:16:03] I would like to be able to be more available because not everybody is interested in growth, of course, but for folks who are, it’s like, yeah, if you don’t set yourself up to grow, and increase capacity, then you’re not going to be available to, you know, all of those nameless, faceless folks, who are thinking about reaching out now, right?

[00:16:21] Or who are starting to think about looking for help and are going to be reaching out in three months. it’s kind of creating that future capacity is what I’m hearing when you set yourself up for strategic growth.

[00:16:30] James: Yeah, you want to be open to that. It’s not at all a negative thing. And I like the flavor that we’re really kind of on here. There’s nothing wrong at all about focusing intensely and caring for the people who are in your space right now. I mean, that’s where it’s at.

[00:16:46] That’s what we’re talking about. That’s what we’re trying to support. But I do see it’s easy because we’re focusing on them to forget about the people who haven’t come yet. That’s that bias. So biasing yourself in a way where you have capacity and you’re building capacity.

[00:17:02] And so you’re, like that engine analogy that we kind of talk about, we’re keeping that thing cool, and we’re doing everything we can to help it be cooler as it provides more, you know, in this case, power to the wheels, you know, and so that rubber meeting the road. That analogy is also a good one,

[00:17:23] the rubber meeting the road is the service for the patients, and I haven’t really met a therapist yet who hasn’t wanted to serve more. Because they’ve got big hearts, and they really want to serve more. But they definitely don’t want to do it to the detriment of themselves because then they can’t serve and you mentioned something about seven patients a day. One of the very odd experiences I had recently I met with a clinician and we were talking a little bit about her goals and what she wanted to accomplish, and she told me she was doing agency work, but she wanted to go back into private practice. And she said the agency she was working with… I almost can’t even say it! She said they were having her do eight sessions a day.

[00:18:05] And I was… you know, after talking to my therapist and my clients and everything, I was like, that sounds unreal. But the thing that told me that was totally far out was when she said this, she said, yes, I had four cancellations today. I was so glad. And I was like, okay, that is not…

[00:18:24] That’s a sign this reaction is out of control. This is too hot when we want it to cool. you know, so a clinician, I think that’s sort of when they’re in that, that worst space they could be in when it’s oh good, people aren’t coming to me for help. That’s when that thing is sort of turned around in the wrong direction, I think.

[00:18:41] Linzy: Yeah, I cannot literally imagine eight sessions a day. And you know, this is something that I encourage my students to think about in Money Skills for Therapists is we all have our own capacity and that’s going to be impacted by other things, too. what kind of work do you do?

[00:18:55] What does your life look like at this moment? Do you have young kids at home? Do you have a parent that you’re caring for? There’s so many factors that influence our capacity at any given moment, but I don’t think eight is in anybody’s capacity. I’ll just say that. I feel confident about that.

[00:19:09] I’ve never met a therapist who sees eight clients a day and doesn’t pay the price for it pretty much immediately.

[00:19:15] James: Yeah. I can’t even imagine it. I can’t like some of the sessions I’ve been in, I can’t imagine eight of those a day. So yeah, everyone I’ve spoken to sort of has this kind of set point and of their general expectation, and often it’s okay, someone’s full time, maybe 25 to 28.

[00:19:31] Okay, But it’s very personal. And I think that’s the other thing that’s very important is if you’re in solo practice, it’s good to be very acquainted with, where is your set point? And, you know, where do you feel comfortable, and it might also depend on what issues you’re working with in terms of what patients, and it also, dare I say, might be affected…

[00:19:54] Your bandwidth in your sessions, and your sort of set point for how much you can serve may very well be influenced by how much money you’re making from what you’re doing. It’s going to be a lot harder to really apply yourself in those sessions, really feel energized. Really feel that ability to communicate with your patients if you sort of feel like things at home aren’t going well because you don’t have the resources to make this, that, or the other thing happen.

[00:20:22] So, to a certain extent, the financial picture is very much a nurturing of the ability for these therapists to perform at the level they want to perform. And so, I guess that’s where we kind of get back into those thoughts of, you know, not being afraid of the numbers. And not being scared of really wanting a good financial result.

[00:20:45] All those things are part of the picture.

[00:20:47] Linzy: They are. This is a lot of the work that I do with folks, at the solo and group level, is making friends with that. Accepting that our financial health is part of our health, and if you are only making 45k a year and you’re supporting your partner who cannot work, you are stressed, right, and you’re not okay and you’re not able to meet your own needs, and you’re not able to give yourself the care or the ease or the space, whatever it is, that you need… There’s no way that’s not affecting the way that you show up for your clients, right? And we can think about that in terms of, like, the impact on you as a worker, you know, if we want to think about it like that, like just that it makes a bad work environment for you.But also it’s going to be impacting the quality of care that you can give folks, whether or not we want to acknowledge that as therapists, there’s no way you’re doing as good of work if you’re like worried about not making your next rent payment, right. Or you have a medical issue coming up and you’re not sure if you’re going to be able to pay

[00:21:39] your bill, there’s no way that is not affecting your ability to be present and grounded. And also I think, you know, with therapists, too, it’s let’s practice what we preach, right? Let’s be taking care of ourselves. So when we talk to somebody else about stepping up and like holding their boundaries, or prioritizing their wellbeing, we’re not being total hypocrites, right?

[00:21:57] We’re actually like, actually speaking from personal experience, knowing that it is hard to do, but that it’s worth it.

[00:22:04] James: Yeah, it is. And you know, I just think that’s important. You have to recognize all aspects. Otherwise, you’re approaching those decisions from a standpoint of bias. And then you’ll inherently make the wrong decision. So yeah, the money’s part of it. Money’s part of it. And so, that’s where you kind of step out into that strategic thinking and you’re like, all right.

[00:22:23] Well, how’s this practice, this business, actually going to be designed to meet the result I need it to meet for me so that I can serve to the best of my ability because, you know, there’s a lot of sort of degrading of the results that can happen. Some practitioners are really good in certain areas.

[00:22:43] Some of them are, other areas are new, or this really is not their focus, so they don’t kind of relate to people on that particular issue. But if they’re struggling, they’ll have a tendency to maybe take on patients they don’t feel as comfortable serving, or they don’t feel like it’s their core competency.

[00:22:59] Well, okay. We can see kind of in that sense, that’s one area where the financial aspect might have forced them into a bias that might lead to a different result that’s not as good for them and their patient.

[00:23:11] Being real about those things I think is important.

[00:23:14] Linzy: Yeah, absolutely. I’m noticing your use of the term bias. You’re using the term bias a lot. Can you speak a little bit to bias? Tell me more about bias.

[00:23:23] James: Yeah, so we all have bias. Bias is where there’s sort of a part of our brain that we sort of head in a certain direction. You guys probably can explain the way the brain works a little better, but it’s sort of like a preconceived notion about something, and this is where I sort of like to talk about my idol in the business world, which is William Edwards Deming. And I’m going to get to bias, I promise.

[00:23:47] William Edwards Deming is who is responsible for what they call the Japanese economic miracle. And they credit him with the Japanese economic miracle, which is where Japan

[00:23:57] was just blasted almost to oblivion. So many things were destroyed. They didn’t have infrastructure anymore, and in 20 to 30 years, Deming took them to being the third largest world economic superpower.

[00:24:08] Linzy: Just to clarify, like after World War II that they were blasted? Is that what you’re referring to?

[00:24:12] James: Exactly, yeah, World War II. Before World War II… the incentive for Japan to get into the war and fight so hard, before World War II, they were in some very dire straits.

[00:24:22] They had some very difficult things going on there, so after, it was even worse. But Deming went there, and he went there with a very compassionate approach to business.

[00:24:32] One of the things Deming said, we can look to hit the things he said as pillars in what we do, and one of the big things he said is, “Without data, you’re just another person with an opinion.”

[00:24:43] Because he felt, correctly, that people, and especially in business, tended to do things based on hunches.

[00:24:50] James: They tended to sort of go with their gut, and that was kind of a big thing. Go with your gut. You know, make it, if you feel this is what you need to do it. Well, that’s going to be a bias, and that’s going to be often what we find in business is the entrepreneurial business owner will rush to a conclusion because they feel…

[00:25:10] You know, some people call it a hunch, some people call it a gut feeling, but a lot of us who are really involved in making excellent decisions, we can call it bias. And so, that’s going to be where your former experiences guide you in sort of this vague, in the gray kind of way, but you sort of just feel it’s the right decision to make.

[00:25:31] Well, Deming was not okay with that. He always said, gather data, inspect what’s going on, figure out what’s going on, gather as much data as possible. So, long story short, we’re basically just putting a lot of weight into that guideline of really sitting down, being clear: what should happen, where should the direction of this thing be, what does the practice owner actually need to get from it?

[00:26:00] What have the prior results been? Collecting data. And data doesn’t have to be a bunch of figures. It can be a list of core competencies. It can be a list of key objectives. It can just be a list of what’s gone well in the past and what hasn’t. That’s also another form of data. And if we assemble all those things, and we start being very real about what we’ve observed, what our intentions are, and what directions we want to head in, that can guide these decisions so much better than sort of saying, Oh, I just kind of have a hunch, which we would call, you know, sort of a bias.

[00:26:34] Linzy: Yeah, absolutely. And because you had mentioned earlier like this idea of, being with the numbers. I don’t know if you said making friends with the numbers. That’s a phrase that I like,

[00:26:41] James: Yeah, it’s good.

[00:26:43] Linzy: That’s so important, right? Because as therapists and, you know, I also work with group practice owners as well, it’s… You didn’t mention this part, but I’m linking back to what you’re talking about earlier…

[00:26:51] Like we are very embodied people, right? Where there is a lot that happens in the body and there’s a lot of emotions and we’re aware of all of these things that are happening, all these levels that can guide you. And sometimes though, that doesn’t set you in a direction that’s actually strategic going back to that word.

[00:27:06] Right. And so it’s, you know, bias, this would be the use of your word bias. And what I think about, to use a therapy phrase is there’s this concept of wise mind where it’s like you’re in the body, you know, you have that somatic connection that you’re with your feelings, you’re noticing your feelings about something, but you’re also in your like thinking brain.

[00:27:25] Both of those are online at the same time. And I think about the thinking brain as what you’re talking about with data. You actually have information. And with these two things together, you know, with connecting with your feelings, how do I feel about this? What do I actually want? And data, you can make strategic decisions, but without both of those things, you’re likely to put yourself out of alignment and make decisions that don’t actually feel good at the end of the day.

[00:27:47] James: Yeah, absolutely. Going with your gut, you can sometimes find yourself way off course after a long period of time. And again, they’re excellent tools. It’s just using the right tool for the job. But an example of combining them both, you can quantify qualitative data.

[00:28:05] So, as an example, one thing that I ask my clients to do is keep what I call a pain points journal. So at the end of the day, take two or three minutes, write down three things you didn’t like how it went. And after a while we see a trend and we see things that show up week after week. We see sort of one off things

[00:28:25] that might be significantly impactful, but you can sort of quantify that and you can say, Oh my gosh, you know, you are spending. way more time working than you realize. You are dealing with this problem every day, and it’s actually taking several hours pretty regularly to manage it in that way. And then we can start sort of picking things apart.

[00:28:45] We can say, you know, why are you doing your own payroll? Why are you doing your own accounting? You know, you might want to get some outside help. And if they look at it in the right way, then they sort of get this unbiased interpretation of it, where they say, Oh, okay. Yeah, I have this pain point, but it leads me to an understanding.

[00:29:05] I’ve been spending this much of my time doing this thing I could delegate out. And, shocker, I could serve more patients by not doing this thing, which isn’t my core competency. And sometimes you just see it because you make note of the emotional experience. And the emotional experience can lead you to a real understanding

[00:29:24] of something that’s functioning poorly in the business. So the emotional experience…It’s a data set in its own way. And so it’s all valuable. It’s all valuable if you treat it the right way.

[00:29:34] Linzy: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you’re describing that it’s connecting to my brain. I’m doing a course right now called Life of Focus with Cal Newport and Scott H Young, and they’re in the kind of education, computer technologist space, but they do a lot around living a meaningful life and like taking time and slowing down.

[00:29:51] And something that they talked about that I thought was really interesting was in terms of writing to process information, they talked about how we have limited kind of cognitive capacity at any given moment, even if we really hook into something, there’s only so many things our brain can hold at one moment, but when we write, we’re almost like expanding our cognitive capacity, right?

[00:30:10] We’re allowing ourselves to hold more information at once. So part of what I’m hearing in what you’re saying is by recording these things, even just a little bit at a time, you’re able to kind of bring all this information together that otherwise would get lost. You’ll forget the fact that you were also exhausted last Thursday, or you’ll forget the fact that

[00:30:25] every time you run payroll, you hate your life.

[00:30:28] You know, cause so many other things happen in between, but when you record it, you can see all the information together and be like, okay, there’s some patterns here. There are things that I can do something about rather than just kind of having these fresh experiences all the time where you’re actually kind of like a goldfish in a bowl hitting the same pain point over and over, but you forget about it.

[00:30:44] Cause there’s so many things you’ve done between, you know, last week when you hit this pain point and this week. So it’s just really letting yourself see what’s already happening in a really clear way.

[00:30:54] James: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, and it’s a great approach. You know journaling has always been a path to self discovery, but it’s interesting when you think about, you know, going to your journal, and re reading the conversations and you’re like, oh my gosh, four times out of ten, I’m ending the day a little bit, kind of pissed off, and then you start being real because that’s going to affect everything that’s going on, you know, it’s going to affect your ability to serve yourself, your ability to serve your patients, and how interesting that you discovered that through something, an emotional experience, that you’re able to put sort of a quantitative analysis on that tells you the trend you’re experiencing and gives you a sense of… It tells you the symptom you can trace to the cause, and then you can make, change things for the better.

[00:31:40] Linzy: Yeah, and you know, to go to the number side of it, too, cause you know, cause that’s an area that you and I live and enjoy, but I’m sure many folks listening do not necessarily live in and enjoy the number side. Something that a coach that I worked with years ago when I first started selling Money Skills for Therapists talked about is you need to grab the numbers, and look at the numbers, and get out of the stories, right?

[00:32:01] So for instance, especially when folks are first starting out, like you’re marketing your practice for the first time. You launch your course for the first time; you’ve put your heart into it. This is like all of your brain and talents, you know, you’ve put it into this course, you send it out to your email list, and nobody buys, right? Where do our brains naturally want to go? They want to go to: I’m a failure, nobody cares about what I’m doing, I’m the worst, I’ve wasted my time, like all the negative stories are going to be right there being like, Oh, oh, choose me, choose me! you know, so many negative interpretations that we can have of that.

[00:32:30] But if you can turn it into information and see, Oh, okay. I sent emails to 600 people, but only 100 people opened that. And of that only 10 people actually clicked over to my sales page. And of that only one person actually looked at the cart. I’m using an online business analogy here, but what I’m seeing is like, Oh, something’s not working here.

[00:32:49] And it’s not about me, and my inherent worth, and people not liking my face, or anything like that. It’s oh, there’s something about probably my email subject lines that’s not catching people’s attention. So what if I try a different subject line? But you can do those like what if questions and experiment and be curious, which is what I always encourage for my students,

[00:33:07] when you actually know what you’re looking at. When you can actually see, “Oh, these numbers are not how I want them to be.” You know, like if you have clients calling for instance, and you have 10 people call, and only two people book, again, that’s not about you. It’s like, Oh, okay. Where’s the disconnect here?

[00:33:22] Are people not getting a real sense of what you’re looking at? Are you maybe marketing in places that people can’t afford your fee? There’s questions to ask there, but it’s only when you look at the data that you can see, okay, something here needs attention rather than going to those stories and emotions, which are always going to be so present.

[00:33:37] So that also comes to mind for me when we’re talking about this data piece, is it’s an invitation to zoom out rather than get caught up in the stories.

[00:33:45] James: Yeah, I relate one hundred percent. And what I like to refer to what you just did is… I call it an anti conflationary approach. So conflation is when we treat many things as if they’re one thing. And savvy business owners and practice owners will do everything they can to avoid falling into that trap.

[00:34:08] This was part of Deming’s genius is that he acknowledged that you have to go into the problem, and you have to divide it into its many different aspects. Like, the word, clever actually is the same word as cleaver. It means to split things up. And not look at one thing as if it’s a whole.

[00:34:28] Look at its components. So, you were very smart to look at that outreach and divide it into what very clearly was many different operations. You know, the email going out, the people seeing the email, the people actually opening the email, the people clicking the link, you know, they call it a sales funnel.

[00:34:49] The sales funnel approach is the way to say, okay, it’s not just marketing or advertising. It’s all these steps that happen inside there. And another idol of mine, or I guess someone I’m a fan of, is Alex Ormosi. And another example of this is he talks about leadership. He says most people say there are boring leaders.

[00:35:11] And he says he completely disagrees with that, and I do, too. But the way he describes it is leadership is not one skill. And we typically think people are boring leaders because we assume it’s one thing, when in reality, leadership is a bundle of skills. There’s sort of a sense of humor, there’s sort of a sense of compassion and kind of connecting with people.

[00:35:34] There’s communication, there’s anticipation of things, and you know, there’s all these skills that come into leadership, and if you go to that concept and divide it, then you can figure out, okay, this is where one person is weak in this area. This is where they’re strong. This is where they can build that skill.

[00:35:53] This is where our marketing funnel… this is where sort of things fall off. When we make a little adjustment in this area, at the bottom end, we can get a significant result. All those things can be a factor.

[00:36:05] Linzy: Absolutely. That clever and cleaver. I’m curious. Do you know, are they actually related, the origins of those words?

[00:36:12] James: So I’m kind of a fan of etymology, and I haven’t looked that one up in, in a while. But, yeah, my understanding is they are related, like in the history of those words, they have the same root.

[00:36:23] Linzy: To take apart, right, and look at.

[00:36:24] James: Yeah. Dividing something.

[00:36:26] Linzy: I love that. Every time I hear the word clever from now on, I’m going to think about that. Because yeah, it is such an important skill, and I think that, again, therapists, because they tend to be so emotional and care so much, it can be hard to take things apart sometimes.

[00:36:39] And it can be hard not to take it personally when our marketing’s not working, when somebody doesn’t book with us, when clients don’t come back, all of these pieces. And so, yeah, I love what you’re saying, you know, take it apart. think about what are the different aspects, because as you say, that also gives us spots where we can grow, and maybe 90 percent of what we’re doing is great, and it’s just like 10 percent that we need to zoom in

[00:37:00] to build a skill, right? That gives you an opportunity to do something, to be strategic, rather than fall into defeat or, you know, want to throw in the hat. Because that’s also something that I hear from folks a lot, you know, in the group practice space as well, which can be a very high stakes, stressful space is: should I shut it down?

[00:37:17] They go sometimes between the like, this is amazing. I love this! To like, I should just shut this down. You know, and there’s a lot of levels in the middle. There are a lot of things that could be looked at in between those places. But I think when we have everything lumped together, it’s easy to just fall into defeat when something’s not working the way we want it to.

[00:37:36] James: Absolutely. Yeah. And In a way that’s sort of a form of scapegoating. If we look at the business or the practice or whatever, and we just say, it’s not working. Well, we’re kind of bundling the whole thing together. There’s always going to be things that are working well and things that are working poorly.

[00:37:52] And one of the greatest early gains we sometimes get with clients, it’s just showing them something that is just creating a loss and sort of taking the whole thing and putting it off balance. And then we say, just put some effort into here. You know, you could coach this area up or build it up in a way, or if you wanted an immediate positive impact, just stop doing that. Because it’s… maybe that’s the thing that’s not working. So yeah, divide it up. Look into the issue. And the bias you kind of see with that is there’s a bias to considering many things as just being one thing. It’s a lot easier on our brains, right?

[00:38:30] Because we can say, you know, Oh, the Republicans are the problem, or the Democrats are the problem. Well, as opposed to seeing, well, there’s nuanced conversations that are inside of that. Or, you know, I hate to, I’m sorry I brought up

[00:38:42] politics, but it’s an area where there’s a lot of scapegoating, right? Where people don’t see… there’s nuance.

[00:38:47] There’s many different issues and you know, you can’t just sort of wash the whole thing as being one thing. So yeah, dig into the details. And it doesn’t have to be perfect, but just try to split things up into all their parts. Try to split those parts up into their parts. Give some sense of weight to what matters most and what is weakest.

[00:39:07] Put your attention there, and you’ll get a better direction.

[00:39:10] Linzy: Absolutely. I mean, I personally find it very grounding, right, when I can have the data in front of me. This is obviously why I teach what I teach, and it’s probably also why you do what you do. You know, we have that love of the information, but I see that, too, for my students, and I’m curious, the impact that you see with the group practice owners that you support as well. What do you notice shifts for people once they start to take things apart and see the component pieces?

[00:39:32] What becomes different for those folks that you support?

[00:39:36] James: There’s a curiosity that comes up. When the data is available… So one of the things we do on our platform is we put a… It’s meant to be a coaching tool, but we can put the activity of all of the clinicians, an owner and then the supervisors… Sort of what they’re hungry for is a sense… They’re looking for symptoms that a clinician could be struggling in a variety of ways.

[00:40:02] Maybe they’re not getting referrals, or maybe they’re having trouble with retention, whatever that might be. But, so we’re looking for reporting to show that. So when that data is available to them, I almost always, when we’re on a call, see them lean in and look, you know. They look and they’re like, oh, what does that mean?

[00:40:17] Because it’s like discoveries are happening, and they’re starting to see the results of the experiment, which is, you know, ultimately hiring someone and coaching their behavior up. It’s kind of an experiment. You’re trying to see how is this going to work out? Can we control this, and have it go in the right direction?

[00:40:33] But they see that. So that curiosity, that’s a great energy to have as a practice owner and a business owner is like being very curious about what’s going on and having the data in front of you, whatever shape or form it might be, builds that curious energy, builds that inquisitive sort of approach of looking into things because you sort of feel like there are things you can discover.

[00:40:56] So if you’re not creating data, if you’re not harvesting data, that’s not going to be there, and you’re going to sort of feel this sort of numbness like, I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t know even what the levers are to push or pull and it sort of feels like you’re stuck. And so, yeah, getting into a state where you’re always sort of building the things you can be aware of

[00:41:17] is a thing that will create that curious energy and sort of a sense of control over what’s going on. Because you haven’t sort of lumped it all into one thing and just thought, “Okay, this just isn’t working.”

[00:41:29] Linzy: Yes. I mean, I think curiosity…As a trauma therapist, curiosity was something that I would really encourage my clients into a curious state because it does also calm the nervous system, right? Like when we get to that place of being like, Huh, Hey, what’s that? You know, like we are getting out of trauma responses.

[00:41:48] We’re getting out of stress responses, and our whole brain is coming online, right? When we’re into that like discovery, problem solving, surprise, like we get to start experiencing this whole other positive range of emotions. And I’m also thinking too, when you pull things apart, you also get to see what is working where you’re like, Oh, we don’t need to mess with that at all.

[00:42:04] This thing over here is great. So I can stop worrying about that. And I can just focus my energy over here on this thing that I can do something about that needs attention. There’s also relief in being able to see, “Wow, we’re actually doing really well in this area,” which again opens the door to all these other positive emotions like relief or even pride, right?

[00:42:22] And those things can exist alongside a problem that you are approaching to solve, right? They can coexist, as you say, once you pull these things apart.

[00:42:31] James: Yeah, and if you split it apart you see the things you’re doing well, that’ll create some confidence. Yeah it’ll inspire you: “Okay, we did that well, so we just need to focus on this area and get that tuned up.

[00:42:42] Linzy: Yeah. Love that. So James, for folks who are listening, can you tell us just a little bit more about who you serve and what you do and where people can find you?

[00:42:52] James: Sure, yeah, we serve practice owners, and they can find us at CACadvisors.com. We are very interested in meeting people, so our tools may not be the perfect solution for everyone we meet with. We’re very mindful of that, so there’s no hard sell in this type of thing. And I’m just a big fan of meeting people in this space and finding ways that we can help them.

[00:43:15] But our website is CAC Advisors, capital C, capital A, capital C, and there’s a little bit more background on us there, and how we serve, and some resources. Just did a presentation at the AACP Psychopharmacology Leadership Summit, and we put the outline for that and a bunch of the resources for that online.

[00:43:36] So there’s some cool stuff on there, and ultimately, we’d love to meet anyone who needs a little help, even if it’s just a 15 minute chat cheerleading them to succeed. So,

[00:43:45] Linzy: Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, James.

[00:43:49] James: Thank you, Linzy, appreciate it very much. 

[00:44:06] Linzy: I really love James’s emphasis on taking things apart. That clever / cleaver thing is still sitting with me. I love that. Because it is so true when we can take things apart in terms of the problems we’re having with our private practices, in terms of the questions that we have, the things we need to learn, it’s less overwhelming, right?

[00:44:24] When we can break it into those component pieces. And as we talked about, too, sometimes when we break things apart in our business and we start to see them as all these separate pieces, we can also see what’s working and not just what’s not working. So you don’t need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[00:44:38] You know, if your client load is down, you can take things apart and start to understand where is the piece that is not working and you can just address that, right? Rather than just feeling overwhelmed by all of it. So, such a helpful perspective from James today. I really appreciate him coming onto the podcast.

[00:44:54] You can follow me on Instagram at Money Nuts and Bolts. You can also watch this episode on YouTube, which maybe you’re doing right now. If you like to have some video to go along with your podcasts, check out our YouTube channel. We’re at Money Nuts and Bolts, and if you’re enjoying the podcast, as always, it’s so appreciated

[00:45:13] if you can leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, ’cause that is the best way for folks to find the podcast and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today.