Maegan [00:00:03] Slow is sustainable. And I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances, and the way that you are modeling, both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach, that you can’t have one without the other. You can’t have skills without the stories.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. Welcome to the season finale episode for the Money Skills for Therapists podcast. And for our season finale, we decided something a little bit different, which is that my business bestie, Maegan Megginson is here. Hi, Maegan. Welcome.
Maegan [00:01:18] Hi, Linzy. I’m so excited.
Linzy [00:01:20] Me too. So just to, you know, mix it up a little bit, do something a little different for this episode, Maegan’s going to interview me about Money Skills for Therapists and, like, how my thinking about money has evolved over time. So, Maegan, you and I now have known each other- I wanna round up because that’s like, you know, I want to make it big. 2017 is when we met. So we’re coming up on six years now.
Maegan [00:01:45] Happy anniversary.
Linzy [00:01:46] Happy anniversary almost – in November – of being friends of like, watching each other’s businesses develop and grow. And like, I mean, we for a little while there, you and I, just us, we masterminded every week. Is that right?
Maegan [00:01:59] Right.
Linzy [00:01:59] Yeah. Yeah.
Maegan [00:02:00] We had a lot to talk about.
Linzy [00:02:01] We had a lot to talk about. So we spent a lot of time together watching each other’s businesses grow and evolve. And so it felt like really natural fit to have you come on to put me in the interviewee seat, which I’m about to occupy, and have you dig into my brain a little bit.
Maegan [00:02:18] Linzy, I’m so honored to be here. It was just such a delight to receive this text from Linzy saying, Hey, do you want to interview me on my podcast? And I was like, Yeah, that’s an easy yes. So I’m so honored to be here and I’m very excited to interview you and just spotlight all of the amazing things about you and let people see- your audience see you, in maybe a way that they haven’t seen you, but that I get to see you all the time. So I feel so lucky that I get to share you with your people for a minute.
Linzy [00:02:51] No pressure. Here we go.
Maegan [00:02:53] Are you ready?
Linzy [00:02:53] I’m ready.
Maegan [00:02:54] Well, Linzy, welcome to my podcast.
Linzy [00:02:57] Thank you so much for having me.
Maegan [00:02:58] Oh, I’m so glad that you’re here. And I have so many questions to ask you today. I mean, first of all, this is- we’re wrapping up season what of the podcast.
Linzy [00:03:07] That’s an excellent question. Maegan. I’m going to say we are wrapping up season six.
Maegan [00:03:11] Oh, my gosh.
Linzy [00:03:12] Well, yes, we do 12-episode seasons, right? So, yeah, I think we’re coming into I think this will be episode 72.
Maegan [00:03:20] Oh, my God, 72 episodes. Okay, you know what? We don’t. We don’t need to check.
Linzy [00:03:24] We don’t need to check. I just got my calculator.
Maegan [00:03:26] Nobody’s going to fact check us on this. So this was episode 789 of Money Skills For Therapists. No, congratulations on six successful seasons.
Linzy [00:03:35] Thank you.
Maegan [00:03:37] That is such a tremendous accomplishment and it’s been such an honor for me to be behind the scenes since 2017 when we went to this coaching mastermind program together and we both started building our next level businesses at the same time. So I’ve had a backstage pass to watch the evolution of Money Skills for Therapists, and I know that Money Skills is coming up on its fourth birthday, which is pretty amazing in the online space. Not many things, courses, programs are around for four years. So congratulations.
Linzy [00:04:12] Thank you. Thank you. And that’s four years with like a break. It’s like I made a course, ran it twice, and then, like, had a baby, did that for a year, and then now- yeah, like, since 2020. Since since COVID is when I launched, like, the latest version of the course. We’ve been running it constantly, nonstop.
Maegan [00:04:28] Yeah. And I just. Just to brag on you. Like the fact that you came back from a maternity leave and kept investing time and energy and the same program that you created before you left, it still had legs when you got back and you know you were out for a year. Like you were- like a solid year. You were off the grid of the Internet.
Linzy [00:04:47] Yes.
Maegan [00:04:48] And you came back and Money Skills was still so solid and people were hungry for it. They missed it. I mean, that really speaks to the strength of the program that you’ve created.
Linzy [00:04:59] Thank you. You’re welcome.
Maegan [00:05:01] And I guess what I’m wondering right now is, you know, what have you noticed evolving or changing around money, How you think about money, how you talk about money, in the four years that you’ve been teaching Money Skills?
Linzy [00:05:17] Yeah. What I think about – the kind of image that comes to mind for me – is there’s like this like deepening and sinking in about money that I have done in the course of teaching the course, like when I first made Money Skills for Therapists. So this would have been in 2018 January was the first cohort. Right. So like you and I met and then 2018 is when I ran the very first cohort. There was actually nothing in the course specifically about mindset. So it’s like we would do it on calls, right? Like organically. And like when I first ran the course, it was six weeks. It was really like drinking out of a firehose.
Maegan [00:05:51] Right?
Linzy [00:05:52] So now all in, you know, folks like, you know, would be like really fully just kind of like soaking it in for six weeks. And so in those calls, naturally of course, like mindset stuff would come up or like emotions would come up and like, you know, folks would cry and like, all those pieces would happen. But like, I actually hadn’t built anything into the course curriculum specifically about, like your relationship with money, which now that I look back, I’m like, right. There was like such a- it’s not an oversight, but it was just like something that maybe it’s because I was a therapist, I was just like, obviously we’re going to dig into this in real life. But given it was such a core piece of the curriculum that wasn’t there when I started and wasn’t baked in like I was. So when I started, I was so about just like spreadsheets and like empowering therapists and this side, like giving them tools. But I feel like the mindset stuff and the relationship pieces and even the way I talk about that has deepened and changed a lot over the four years. I’ve developed language that I just did not have back when I started the course.
Maegan [00:06:50] I mean, what I’m hearing is that in the first iteration of Money Skills, emotions and mindset were secondary to skills and curriculum.
Linzy [00:06:59] Yes.
Maegan [00:06:59] And what you discovered pretty quickly in working with people through the program was like, wait a minute, like the ratio is off here. Like we need to really.
Linzy [00:07:08] Exactly.
Maegan [00:07:09] Prioritize emotions and mindset because, you know, I think what you and I know and talk about to each other a lot is you can’t actually do really deep work around money without a willingness to look at the relational aspect of currency.
Linzy [00:07:24] Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s like the ratio was off. But even I think the order of operations, right? So like what I now understand and believe very firmly about money is that relationships actually has to come first, right? What I have learned over the course of teaching Money Skills over the last four years is it’s that relationship piece to money, right? It’s the stories that we have. It’s the trauma that we carry in our body is related to money. And like the previous negative experiences, those pieces actually make us unable to learn. Right? And so I think at the beginning I didn’t understand like, no, we really have to like, sit here and like really name this and bake this into every call and everywhere we talk about it. But also baked into the curriculum like this is first. First is understanding like, what are you carrying, what are the stories, what is the trauma, like what do you need to take to therapy and what are things that you can work out here in real time? Then it starts to create that opening, like that little bit of calming in our brains that allows us to start to learn.
Maegan [00:08:23] It feels like a lot of what you’re saying right now comes directly from your experience as a trauma therapist.
Linzy [00:08:29] Yes, that’s true. Which actually makes it a little bit laughable that I didn’t make it in at the beginning. I know. Like, that makes sense.
Maegan [00:08:36] Well, you know, and I think this is something that we have both reflected on in the last year of how like when we originally shifted out of private practice mode and into a business kind of beyond our therapy practices, there was a part of us that had to go all the way to the other side of the spectrum. I was like, okay, this is not therapy anymore. This is something else. I am teaching something now. But as time goes on, I think we’re both kind of finding our way back to our roots. And this is that’s what this is for me. It’s like, Oh, like you needed that trauma foundation all along to really make this a very complete ecosystem.
Linzy [00:09:15] Yeah. And I think too, like when I first started, like, I wanted it to just not be trauma therapy. It’s like, I want to do not trauma therapy.
Maegan [00:09:22] I’m trying to get away from that.
Linzy [00:09:24] Yeah, like my therapist at the time. Like therapist who did some supervisory stuff with me too. It’s like I remember talking with her about my idea, like when I came up with the idea for Money Skills for Therapists. I don’t think people necessarily knew how to respond, right? Like, I didn’t necessarily get the warmest responses from everybody. And I remember my therapist being like, Well, it’s just going to be trauma. Like you’re just going to end up talking to people about trauma. Like it felt very like squishing my idea down. I mean, it reminds me of the guy that I dated before the man I eventually married who was like, Why would you be a therapist in private practice? There’s so many of those. Like, the world doesn’t need those. It’s like, Well, he was extremely wrong. And like, my therapist was wrong too, in terms of like, it’s not just trauma. Like, I’m not just doing trauma therapy with people. Like there are concrete skills and there’s language and there’s education that we’re missing. But yeah, I think I was probably trying to get away from the trauma pieces and being like, this is going to be fine. And then ultimately, of course, it’s a deep, important part of the work to let therapists actually learn money.
Maegan [00:10:20] When we’re tired of therapy. Because we’re therapists. I feel like we want to escape it and we’re really quick to discount the incredible magic that we wield as therapists. Our understanding of trauma, of the nervous system, of internalized beliefs, that this is the core of all work that you will ever do on anything in your entire life. Like you cannot separate running your business or your finances or raising your kids. You can’t separate this stuff from what’s happening at the very center of you. And I’m hearing that that is the biggest evolution that you have made inside of Money Skills is really positioning the emotional, the mindset, the understanding of the trauma story, front and center on the Money Skills journey. And I’m just curious, as you’ve made that transition, what kind of results are people getting, different from the results they were getting before that was part of the process?
Linzy [00:11:18] Mm hmm. Like, what I see now is I see folks getting similar results. But what’s different is they get to do that work more inside the course in community, even making the course- the course is now a six-month course in terms of the support that they get. Folks can work through the modules at their own pace. Right. Which also I think is more flexible to the way that people learn. And some people do jump in and like do three modules in like almost never once a week, truthfully. So never as fast as I used to teach it. But some folks do jump in and like move really fast. But then when they hit a wall, the wall is almost inevitably that emotional mindset. The stories come up, it gets hard. The part that thinks that you know, that tells them that they’re stupid pops up and starts getting really loud and they disengage. But then there’s like the time to come back, right? So what I see is the way that we teach it now with really like holding emotional space. And my coach, who works for me, used to be Heather and now Diane, both amazing. Their calls have been just mindset calls like they don’t do the more practical stuff that we do in some of the other calls, like it’s just mindset. And so what I see now is like, folks get to do a lot more of that work actually inside our course and inside our community rather than I think what was happening before with my earlier students is they would get a lot of like the learning from me and we would do a little bit of that processing, but then they would take it to therapy, they would take it to their business buddies. Like they would keep working on it after the course. And so what’s also nice too, with the course being longer now, is I get to see and be with folks through that work because it does take time. Whereas like some of my earlier students, some of my students who had incredible results and like are now, you know, my testimonials. I remember one of my students like our our one on one call, which we had at the end of her six weeks. She was so anxious and overwhelmed and her computer wasn’t working and she was like nearly in tears trying to get it working so she could get the most of our call. And like, you know, I came off that call being like, Oh, I hope that she’s able to, like, solidify these things. And she did, but she had to do it later outside of the container of the course. Whereas now folks are able to do that, like settling in and that shifting and that healing and that basically like rewriting of identity inside of the course instead.
Maegan [00:13:23] Wow. Rewriting your identity.
Linzy [00:13:26] Yeah.
Maegan [00:13:26] That’s pretty huge. I would say that’s a pretty huge shift in what you are offering in Money Skills than when you started. So I’m just going to share these two reflections. It isn’t just the prioritizing of the emotional experience and the trauma stories and the narratives. It’s also it’s doing that in a container that allows for a slower, more sustainable pacing. And I think this is something you and I talk a lot about in the online space in general. Is that so so much of what we’re sold is flash in the pan, really fast. You know, come in, six weeks and you’re going to have your whole life is going to be completely different. And that’s not true. Like that almost literally never happens. Yeah, slow is sustainable and I love that you have both embraced a more sustainable path in the way you’re teaching people about money and business finances and the way that you are modeling both in your personal sharing and also in the way that you teach that you can’t have one without the other, you can’t have skills without the stories. Those two things really go together. So thank you for those reflections. I have another question.
Linzy [00:14:38] Yeah.
Maegan [00:14:39] Are you ready?
Linzy [00:14:40] I’m ready.
Maegan [00:14:41] I want to know. You and I talk a lot about money in our friendship. Like money as a concept, money- I mean, our conversations definitely, like, tilt philosophical most of the time. So I want to know when it comes to money, like what is one of the most common misnomers or myths or misunderstandings that clients bring into Money Skills?
Linzy [00:15:01] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, to go with that identity piece, I think probably one of the most common misunderstandings about money that I see folks come in with is, like, this idea of, like, I’m not a money person, right? That there’s, like, money people and those people are just, like, good at money. And they’ve always been good at money and they’re good at math. And that therapists are not that. Right. We are something else. And I will say it is absolutely true that there is like natural ability that pops up in different areas, right? Like my brother is like brilliant with mechanics. He can look inside like and look at a van engine and like, think about how it works and figure out how to fix it. By looking at it. I look at a van engine and I’m like, That’s a lot of stuff and we’re gonna close the hood. The fact that I even just accessed the word hood, I’m pretty proud of. I have to say.
Maegan [00:15:51] So some of us are naturally.
Linzy [00:15:53] There’s like that natural. But I think that it’s the idea that that it can’t be learned right, that it’s.
Maegan [00:15:58] Like you either have it or you don’t.
Linzy [00:15:59] There’s people who do this and I can’t do this. Right. And what I reflect to folks and I was just having a conversation on a call last week with a student about this, talking about her experience of like getting kind of like overwhelmed and having trouble getting started. And I think whenever there’s, like, it’s hard to sit down and work on something or it’s hard to keep up momentum. Like, it’s a sign that there’s there’s friction there and it’s like being curious about what it is. And like when we dug in to it together, it’s like she has this story that she’s like, stupid, right? She’s stupid. And this is a story I hear a lot. I hear the stupid story a lot. And applying like the idea that therapists are stupid is like so far from reality. You know.
Maegan [00:16:36] We’re literally the smartest people on the whole planet.
Linzy [00:16:38] Yeah. Not. Not to be biased.
Maegan [00:16:39] Literally.
Linzy [00:16:41] We’re brilliant. In the coaching that I did with her on our group call was like, I just like, slowed her down and reflected on like, So there’s this part of you. It feels like you’re stupid. And usually it’s a very young part, right? Usually those are things that like, you know, I used to call my brother stupid when we were kids. I’m sure he’s got a part that I created, you know, because of that, like name calling, because he struggled in school. And we end up with these parts when we’re really little. But like as we zoomed out and like, she zoomed out more on her life experience, she has three master’s degrees, like the amount of like learning and pushing through and bending your brain and retaining new information that you have to do for three master’s degrees is phenomenal, right? And so money, it’s like it might not be your natural tuning, but like most of it is arithmetic. Truly. It’s like addition, subtraction, like maybe a little multiplication to, like, make it interesting. And therapists absolutely have the intellectual capacity to learn it. And we also have the capacity to set up good systems and make it work for us. But it’s it’s getting over that idea that you are this or you aren’t this. Like you can grow into this. It’s that growth edge, right? Like growth mindset. And I think so many therapists – and you and I, I know, have this kind of history – as people like tend to be perfectionists, tend to be people who want to be good at things right away. You know, like your- what was the award? You won the best at everything award?
Maegan [00:17:56] Yes, it’s true.
Linzy [00:17:57] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Maegan won that in high school.
Maegan [00:18:00] Eighth grade.
Linzy [00:18:00] Eighth grade. Eighth grade. Yeah. I was also the fifth grader of the year. Just to add my award to the pile.
Maegan [00:18:06] These are the quote. I’m using air quotes. These are like the awards and accolades that just like, really mess us up deeply inside.
Linzy [00:18:15] The only thing that I enjoyed about getting the grade five of the year award is that I beat my crush who was also a contender and I beat him and beating boys at things is something I enjoyed deeply, still to this day. Beating men at board games is one of my greatest joys. But yeah, so that story, like not being a money person or that money is not important to you. Like money’s not- you’re not a money person in the sense of like, it’s just like not something that is important. Like those are all things that really have to be, like, troubled because I just think they’re they’re just not true and they really limit us. Those kinds of stories limit us deeply in our ability to make our lives work. Truthfully.
Maegan [00:18:51] I really appreciate how you’re normalizing that. We all have parts that pipe up when it comes to money in math. And you know, we all have them. No one, even people who are good at math, might have mindset struggles with money when it comes to scarcity. Right. Do I have enough? You know, so I think I have yet to meet a single human on this planet who has, you know, a perfectly clean slate when it comes to managing money and thinking about money. And I just want to take this and expand it a little bit because I feel like another thread here that you’re weaving into this conversation is the way people think about money conceptually, right? There’s all the baggage that we bring in and all the stories we tell ourselves, you know, like I’m not a math person and you’re saying so clearly right now, stop it. Like, money skills are learnable for everyone. So we’re just kind of like, you know, we’re like, that conversation is done. Yes, you can learn this is as possible for you. Yeah, but it doesn’t solve yet philosophically how people understand money and how people think about money as people and as business owners. What do you have to say about that?
Linzy [00:20:03] Yeah, So, you know, this is also something that I think I’ve thought of over time and obviously had lots of conversations with folks about money. And I had this kind of revelation, you know, I’m a verbal processor, so sometimes I talk myself into an answer like I, I don’t know what’s going to come out of my mouth. And then I’m like, Oh, that sounds good. Yeah. I really summed up a lot of what’s been swirling around in my brain. So I was being interviewed recently by Dr. Liz Lasky for a summit that she’s doing, and I really enjoyed my conversation with her a lot. And she brought up this this idea. She was like, you know, a lot of my my students say that, like, money is just not a value for them, right? It’s just not important to them. It’s not something that they value. And she was like, you know, what do you say to like this idea of like money’s just not something that’s not a value for everybody. And like, I had this really strong response to it and I was like, like money is not a value. Like if we looked at the list of values, like if you put like Brené Brown’s list of values, money is not on there and it should not be on there because money is not an end unto itself. And that’s what I really like conceptually started to really deepen into. You know, as we’re talking all these mindset pieces, like money is a tool. Right. Like my dad loves woodworking, so he collects saws, but saws are not what’s important to him. Saws are not a value. He doesn’t- he isn’t like, what’s important in my life is saws. What’s important in his life is creativity, using his hands, giving gifts to people that he made from his heart, connection and family, like that’s what it’s about, right? and I think with money, we confuse the vehicle or the tool. We think that the vehicle and the tool is the end unto itself. And it’s not at all. Like money has no meaning in and of itself. I think it’s completely how we relate to it. You know, these pieces hanging about earlier. It’s what you do with it, and it’s how you use it to enact your actual values that gives it meaning and purpose and brings it to life.
Maegan [00:21:58] Yeah, Because, you know, like, money isn’t real. I remind myself of this, like, once a week. Like, we literally really made it up. Like, we made it up. And we all mutually agree that it’s a thing that we can barter with. Yeah. What you’re saying is really, really powerful. Money isn’t a value. Money is a tool that can support you in getting and creating the things that you actually do value in your life. But before we talk more about that, I want to know when people say things like, well, money’s not important to me. Money’s not a value for me. What do you think they’re actually saying?
Linzy [00:22:32] They’re saying they’re afraid of money. They’re saying that money is bad. They’re afraid of power. They’re afraid of being one of the bad people who has power and therefore is abusing and exploiting other people. They’re saying that they don’t feel competent or they don’t trust themselves to have it. So they’re just told themselves that they don’t want it. I think there’s a kind of a disowning there of that that power.
Maegan [00:22:55] I agree. And I would say that I think some people who say money’s not important to me, money’s not a value, are also people who are in the process of like deprogramming themselves from capitalism, and they’re just not on the other side of it yet, you know, because I think when you’re at the beginning of your journey of understanding your relationship with capitalism and patriarchy and all the things, it’s really easy to be like, smash the patriarchy, down with money. You know, we go into this like, rage angry place, which actually is not helpful. Yeah. So I think sometimes when people are like, money doesn’t- it’s not important to me. It’s not a value that I have. It’s really, to me, this little beautiful little flag that says like, Oh, great, now they’re doing the real work. It’s like really starting to figure out then like, Whoa, what is it? You know, and how do I fit this into my life in a way that is aligned with my values? Yeah. So on that note, I would love to know. What advice do you have for people who are in the place where they really are ready to examine their values and connect with the things that really matter to them?
Linzy [00:23:56] Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think about, you know, when you’re talking about folks in that place where they are pushing against something, they’re questioning their relationship with capitalism and other systems. It makes me think about it’s easy to put yourself in opposition like this is what I’m against. But ultimately, what makes the world better is like, What are you for? Yeah, right. And your values are about what are you for, right? What feeds you? What is what makes your life worthwhile? What do you want your legacy to be? And the legacy is not money. I really- like the more that I have, like, sat with this and the more that I’ve watched the accumulation of wealth, I have seen that just passing a bucket load of money onto your kids doesn’t actually necessarily guarantee anything about their happiness or success or even their love for you. Right. Like, I think we get so confused sometimes with like, well, family is a value, so I’m going to, like, save up tons and tons of money, I mean, to make lots of money so my kids have money. And again, we’re confusing the vehicle with the actual value, right? The destination. Right. And so it’s if you’re coming to that place of starting to think about what are you for? Like something that I’ve done with my students in Money Boss, when I ran that mastermind before. And then I talk about more with my like group practice owners because they’re more in that place of like they’ve usually done some foundational pieces and they’re getting more into how do you use this powerful tool that is now at your disposal? Is even challenging yourself to think about like a top three. Like, what are your top three values? Yeah, because there’s this whole, you know, piece about priorities. And, you know, I think many of us have heard by now this concept that there didn’t used to be a concept of priorities. You had a priority, you had one. And now when we think of priorities, we have a list of like 20 things that pops into our brain. It’s hard to get it down to one, but I find three is helpful in like, modern age.
Maegan [00:25:48] All right. I’ll meet you in the middle.
Linzy [00:25:49] I’ll meet you in the middle. You get three priorities, three values. And I find, like, looking at, you know, Brené Brown has that list of values which I use, you know, as a great starting place with folks. Just like, peruse that list. And like, what calls to you? Like, what is most important in your life? And values, I think can be abstracted or like, you know, put into certain contexts that make them very loaded. But it’s just a question like what is actually important to you? What’s the most important to you? Right? And what does that actually look like? Right. If family is important to you, what does family actually look like? What do you mean when you say that? It is that creating memories for your kids? Is that helping them like have ease as they go through school? Like, what does it mean? Like, how do you instrumentalize that? Because it’s so powerful to be living your values. And that for me is like ultimately where you get to once you work through all this, like once you go through the murky swamp of money work, right, and like start to have that trauma setting, start to think about new identities, start to like, set up your own systems to make money work for you in the way that your brain works. On the other side, you get to ask yourself, like, what really matters to me and how do I use this tool to get more of that or create more of that in my world? And it’s really it’s a very powerful place to get to.
Maegan [00:27:04] It is powerful and it is really hard work. You know, I, I feel like sometimes people don’t- like values are especially – I’m thinking back to my early days training to be a therapist. And you know, we did like core values trainings and all of these and there’s this like lightness about it. You know, core values work. Oh, just do some values, right? Here’s some worksheets. And it it really missed the mark in terms of like how deep values work is and how, like, you can’t actually do values work without processing quite a lot of grief and regret. You know, when you really look yourself in the mirror and start to get honest about what is actually important to me in my life, usually we then have to grieve how much of that we haven’t held up to this point. So I guess I just want to add into this conversation for people who are starting to really drop in to a deep exploration of their values, make sure you’re well supported in community with your therapist, with your own friends and colleagues, with people who are really having this conversation with their own selves, so that when you do hit up against something that’s heavy or hard or there some grief, like you have someone to process that with, like that is such an important part of this process. Getting clear on what you value is – if I’m hearing you right – the only way to really understand the purpose money serves in your life.
Linzy [00:28:29] Yes.
Maegan [00:28:30] And the other thing that that popped up for me listening to you talk about values is that most of the time- I haven’t looked at Brene Brown’s list of values. I will do that. But for me, most of the time, core values are connected to time in some way. Like most core values are connected to time. I want time with my family. I want time to be creative. I want time to tend to myself. And I think that that is the thing money does for me right now in my life is like having an abundance of money makes it possible for me to have more time to explore the things that really matter to me because I’m not kind of stuck in, you know, a 40 to 60 hour workweek, you know, serving clients or serving a boss. So that’s where my mind goes when I think about like, what’s- so if I’m clear on my values, like, what can money really do for me? Well, money can buy me like free time. Spaciousness. What other things come to mind for you?
Linzy [00:29:27] Yeah.
Maegan [00:29:27] What can money do for us?
Linzy [00:29:29] That is definitely yours. As someone who knows you well and has also watched your evolution and something like you and I masterminded recently with some other, you know, therapist business friends in San Francisco when we were there. And something that I said to you in that mastermind is like, I- you are now the happiest that I’ve ever seen you. Like, I think you just you keep getting happier. And so much of that, I think, for you, has been claiming that time for yourself, right. Like, that’s something that is deeply important. And I think also for who you are as a person and just your energy and like what really feeds you. Topnotch value. And you’re definitely living that. Right. And I see how that pays off for you in so many ways. You know, when I think about myself, I think that sometimes I think that I want time and I do want time. But, you know, we were talking about this when we’re traveling together. I’m like a project person. I’m a creator. And so is my spouse, you know, my partner. And so that’s something that I see for us is like we are very like generative and we like to think about how to make the world better. And my partner is a city councilor as well, so he’s deep in the like, you know, like homelessness, the opioid crisis that we have happening in Canada, you know, how do we fix this? We think about these things a lot. And so I think for us too, it’s also a family value is is kind of creativity and creation, right? So and sometimes I do I delude myself into thinking, oh, and then I’ll have time. And everyone who knows me well is like, Oh, you’re going to fill that with a project.
Maegan [00:30:51] Well, but I think this is really important that you have to have time to engage in those projects. That having time doesn’t mean having time to sit around and do nothing.
Linzy [00:31:03] Yes.
Maegan [00:31:04] Having time means having time to do whatever it is that you identified is your core value. And I think like that this is the biggest thing we stand to gain as business owners, as people who do control our own schedule, and we do control the way that we make money. We have the ability to create time in our lives, to do our values, to live our values in a way that people who are employed do not. In the way who people are, you know, not running their business in creative and sustainable ways, do not. So, yeah, I just want to make that clarification that it’s money can afford you time not to be working in your business so that you can explore your values outside of your business and whatever feels right for you.
Linzy [00:31:50] I think about that too, as you were talking earlier, about how like when you really look at your values, there’s going to be grief and you’re going to have to like accept where those values have not been present. And what I think about is, is the next piece of this is you’re also going to have to be honest with yourself about making decisions, like actually prioritizing. Oh, yeah, right. I think we we do very much live in a, like, we want to have it all society where it’s like, oh, I want to have time to like, enjoy my kid while they’re young. But also, I mean, I feel really frustrated if I need to take time off to be with them because I could have been making a thousand dollars that day. Right. So it’s like really being honest with yourself of like, wait a second, what actually matters to you right now? And that’s a conversation I remember having with a coaching client at one point, like, this is a gift, right? The fact that we do work for ourselves and we can make the choice to say like, Hey, my kid was sick, I’m going to be home with her and just let her sleep on me all day. You know, when we’re so driven by this idea of what success looks like and it’s like I should be making money because I could be making money. We miss the fact of, like, you’re winning. Like your family has enough that you’re okay and you get to be home with your kid and they don’t have to be like, you know, at daycare or like with a babysitter when they’re feeling really sick and they just want their parents. Right. Like that is winning. Like that is you actually living your priorities if that is, you know, one of your priorities. But it’s like, we do have to make hard decisions ongoingly to make sure that we are actually living those values because there is always going to be this noise of like, but you could be more productive, you could be making more money, right? Like you could be getting money to buy that nice thing that the person next door has, like the keeping up with the Joneses is real. And it looks different now because now it’s social media and it’s Instagram and whatever.
Maegan [00:33:30] Lifestyle creep is real.
Linzy [00:33:32] Lifestyle creep is very real.
Maegan [00:33:33] So to reflect, it starts with really naming what your values actually are, and you’re giving people three, three. They can have three.
Linzy [00:33:44] You can have three.Yeah.
Maegan [00:33:44] That’s it. No more, no less. Now identify three values that- this is a question I posed to my clients a lot. It’s a little bit morbid, but, you know, like, life is not infinite. If you found out that you were going to die tomorrow, like, how would you spend your last 24 hours here? What would you look back on and regret not having done more of? Like that can be a very evocative way to begin to peel back the layers to find like, Well, what are these three core things that I really want to organize my life around. And what I want to just remind people of is that, like, your business exists to serve you and your family first and foremost. Your clients are secondary to you serving yourself. So when you identify these three core values that you really want to organize your life around, your next job as a business owner is to figure out how do I curate this business that I have so that it fuels and funds those things that I’ve identified as my core values. Yeah. And then you’re saying, Linzy, that’s when you can really answer the question, What does money mean to me and what can money do for me? Money is a thing that you make to serve the core values you’ve identified are most important to you. Am I getting that right?
Linzy [00:35:01] Yeah. And as we’re talking about those, too, the other word that comes up for me, which is one of my favorites, is like enough-ness. Like it’s also the root to enough-ness, because when you’re actually living your values in your life, you know, when you’re really doing the things that like feed you and that are rich and meaningful for you. And that’s different for every single one of us. When you have a lot of that in your life, the striving really quiets down, right? The illusion that like, Oh, if only this, then I’m going to feel satisfied, right? Because the truth is like you can build a life that gives you deep satisfaction. Now, I would say almost regardless of your financial situation, but by getting money working for you, you can get more of that into your world and you can be doing that without like sacrificing something else in the future, like your financial stability, your retirement, right? Like you can have both. You get to be present knowing that you have enough and you’re on track and everything’s okay, and you don’t need to be constantly pushing for more.
Maegan [00:35:58] Oh, I think that is a really beautiful note for us to wrap up on this. Just this reminder that you you don’t have to spend the rest of your life pushing for more, that your worthiness as a human being is not attached to how much money you make or what your job title is or how many figures you can say your business earns every year. That that’s all nonsense. The money you’re generating through your business is a tool to fund the beautiful life that you are creating for yourself and for your family. Nothing more and nothing less. But coming full circle back to the beginning of our conversation. In order to do that, in order to be able to paint that picture, you have to have a foundational set of money skills to use so that you know how to run your business, you know how to categorize your finances and how to pay yourself appropriately, that those skills are really non-negotiable. If you want to create a sustainable business that funds your life. So it’s all of these pieces together, the emotional skills, the emotional stories, the processing of the trauma that comes for you around money. Balancing that all out with like actual strategic spreadsheet skills and understanding of like banking and like how to move money from one place to another. Moving that into how do I use this money that I now know how to organize the fund, the values that I have for my life? Am I getting that right?
Linzy [00:37:37] You are. Yeah. I think the money is a you know, the skills I think of as a foundation. Right. To to bring a new metaphor into the mix. That’s your foundation upon which you’re stable, you’re secure. And then you can reach and expand and be present because you are. Right. Like, you do have everything covered. There is enough-ness. Like, true enough-ness. Your life is covered. There’s money going towards the future and you can just really sink into being in your life in the way that is actually going to feed you the most.
Maegan [00:38:09] Linzy, this is really big stuff. And I just feel like if all business owners could hear this and really let it in, I’m not saying this to be dramatic. I literally mean, like the whole world would be such a better place, a kinder, gentler, more loving place, a happier place that like it starts here. And I’m so grateful that you exist and that you are here to share this wisdom and knowledge with people through this podcast. And it was such an honor and a privilege to be able to interview you today. So thank you for having me and thank you for just existing. It’s a real pleasure to know you.
Linzy [00:38:47] Thank you. Maegan. This was really fun. I am so appreciative of Maegan for coming in and doing this interview with me to end what is actually season six. I did go back and check this is our final episode of season six of the Money Skills for Therapist Podcast. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. It was really fun to dig into those things with Maegan and to be the one being interviewed instead of the reverse. And if you are curious about money skills for therapists, we’ll put a link in the show notes to watch the masterclass. So there’s a masterclass that you watch, which gives you a feel for me and how I teach and what’s included in the course. It really walks through what’s included in the course. So we talk there about the six months of support that are now built into the way that we teach it and all the modules and all the content. And you can check out that masterclass to learn about Money Skills for Therapists, and also have the opportunity to join us if it calls to you. So thank you so much for joining us for the end of season six. We will be back with season seven in the fall. Gonna take a little break. And of course, you can follow us on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you have enjoyed this final episode or any of the episodes in season six of the podcast, I would so appreciate if you can go live review on Apple Podcasts so other therapists and health practitioners can find the podcast and be part of this conversation. Thanks so much for listening.