Lindsay [00:00:00] We can’t change certain things, but we can change how we are prepared for them or how we adapt to them. So as we experience a recession, we have to think about, yes, I can’t change how the stock market performs or whether or not Amazon’s going to lay off more people. I have no control over that. But what I do have control over is figuring out what will make me feel more financially secure in the face of this recession weather.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the Course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. She is a financial therapist. She is a consultant who helps therapists with their finances. And I’m so excited to have her on today because as we talk about a little bit, once our conversation gets rolling, she brings such knowledge and experience around the emotional pieces of money that I’m so passionate about and that I feel like are just you know, there aren’t a lot of people who are really like in that world. Today we get into discussing financial anxiety, what it looks like, its relationship to procrastination and perfectionism, and how sometimes it can disguise itself. We also get into the word that is kind of on everybody’s lips right now, at the time that I’m recording this, which is recession, what a recession means, what it means for us as therapists and how to actually respond to and take care of ourselves in this time of recession. And finally, of course, there are even more useful tidbits from Lindsay about those first steps of what to do if you do identify that financial anxiety is a big part of your relationship with money. Here is Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. So Lindsay, welcome to the podcast.
Lindsay [00:02:16] Thanks, Linzy.
Linzy [00:02:18] I was going to say, obviously, we have to make that joke immediately two Lindsays who like to talk about money in the same place. And I was on your podcast like a few years ago. A couple of years ago.
Lindsay [00:02:28] Yeah, I was gonna say, at least two years. Yeah.
Linzy [00:02:31] It’s been a little while. And I don’t know why I didn’t have you on two seasons ago, so I’m so glad you’re here.
Lindsay [00:02:35] Well, happy to be here.
Linzy [00:02:37] So, Lindsay, you know, we were just chatting a little bit before we started recording about how I have lots of different folks who come on the podcast, lots of folks who have knowledge of a private practice building and like kind of different facets of money, but like something that you bring to the table that I think is really different than folks who’ve come on the podcast so far is such a knowledge of like the psychology of money, given your training and the work that you do. And something that you and I see a lot that I was hoping we could dig into today is financial anxiety. So I was curious. I know that this is a topic near and dear to your own heart, because folks who are listening can’t see this on Lindsay’s bookshelf. Behind her is the financial anxiety solution, which is a book that she wrote. So Lindsay, how do you define financial anxiety?
Lindsay [00:03:26] Well, I think given that your audience is therapists, they will get this pretty quickly. But if we first just think about anxiety as a sensation that all of us have at different points in our time – not clinical anxiety, but different points in our lives – is feeling nervous, worried or on edge about a certain thing, or experiencing intrusive thoughts or having physical reactions because of that worry. We just layer money on top of that, right? So financial anxiety is feeling worried, nervous, or on edge any time you are engaging with thinking about or doing stuff with your money. And I think all of us experience financial anxiety at different points in time. It could be as quick as like, Oh shit, did my paycheck get deposited and refreshing your bank app going, Oh, it’s there. Okay, cool. It’s like very time limited. Not a big deal. Or it could be pretty insidious where it’s kind of this ruminating thought at all hours of the day of I’m bad with money, I don’t have enough, I’ll never learn. I’m so worried. And that is more of what I’m interested in, is how can we help people, who are experiencing kind of consistent financial anxiety, dial it down. The one time financial anxiety is more of like, let’s be curious about that, right? So again, putting on our therapist hat, why is it that I get nervous when my paycheck gets deposited? Or why is it that I feel anxiety when I look at my retirement account? Now we can kind of dig in there and get into it. But with anxiety, just with financial anxiety, just like traditional anxiety, it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel good to have your heart racing. It doesn’t feel good to have thoughts kind of running through your head. It’s a sensation that most of us dislike. And so we do whatever we can to avoid it. Yes. And so oftentimes in my work, I see people fall into two kind of buckets of how they cope with financial anxiety and it’s perfectionism and procrastination. And I can dig into that a little bit more, but I’ll pause for now.
Linzy [00:05:27] Well, yes, I mean, perfectionism and procrastination. I feel like in my own work in Money Skills For Therapists, I feel like people tend to fall into either of those two camps, pretty much two different manifestations of the same thing. So let’s dig into procrastination first. This is what I tend to see kind of more of, at least with the folks that I see in Money Skills For Therapists, so probably folks who are listening tend to be more on the procrastination side. Also, statistically speaking, what do you notice or what can you tell us about that procrastination response?
Lindsay [00:05:57] Yeah, often times I think with procrastination it is perfectionism just by another name in that a lot of the times when I’m working with clients who have procrastination, the surface level thing they’ll say to me is, I know I should do it, but I’ll do it later, right. When we dig under it, it’s really, I don’t want to make a mistake, right? I don’t want to not know what I’m doing. I don’t want to feel dumb. So instead of taking messy, potentially making a mistake, action with your finances, people just don’t do it at all. So if I can’t do it exactly right, I won’t do it at all. And so oftentimes procrastination can look like, I’ll do it later, I work better under pressure, I’ll do it in tax season, right? A lot of these kind of external things. But when you dig under it, it’s usually this fear of not enough ness. I don’t know enough. I’m not smart enough, I don’t get it. And that’s where we can really kind of use some of our skills to figure out what would it take for you to feel comfortable enough to take that next step in relationship to your finances. Yeah.
Linzy [00:07:03] Yeah. I mean, I love what you’re talking about right now because I think that this is such a missing piece so often in talk about money in general. Yeah, like I think probably similar to a lot of different topics is like the people who talk about it the most are often the people who it comes – as long as it comes easily – it’s like if these parts are there for them, they don’t talk about this piece. They talk about the stuff that they do. So if you look at like blogs about how to save enough money, they’ll just do….. or I just did….. And it’s like seems like nobody else is struggling with these things and that they’re just like taking action even though probably, under the surface, you know, there’s other things happening. But when people talk about money, they don’t talk about all like the hard feelings and the things that might be happening for us simultaneously. I find that sometimes it’s just a very kind of robot-y content about, Just do this, which totally ignores this whole other part of the experience.
Lindsay [00:07:51] Yeah. And you’re speaking to this thing that happens in the personal finance space, which is it’s very individualistic. If you have debt, it’s 110% your fault. If you didn’t negotiate a raise, that’s on you. Instead of acknowledging that there is this both/and. Yes, we live in a society that makes it hard for certain people to move forward and to have access to this knowledge. And it’s important for us to get the knowledge that we need so we can take care of ourselves. But in so many personal finance spaces, it’s just about it’s all your fault. You’re bad with money. And as we know, that’s not a great motivator for change, like, oh, I feel like garbage. Yeah. Now I’m going to start doing good things that, like, never happens. And we know this as therapists, we know and we’re thinking about motivation and behavior change. It’s really about self-compassion and values. So why we don’t apply that to money, you and me.
Linzy [00:08:49] Well, and I love you naming that both/and, because I find that something that I think I, I even grapple with sometimes how to hold those things simultaneously.
Lindsay [00:08:57] Yeah. Oh 100%.
Linzy [00:08:57] I think sometimes with money and even in the therapist space when we talk about like just like raise your fees and just do it, there is under this this kind of stripping away or ignoring of the systems that have got people where they are, that continue to make things ten times harder for Person A than they are for person B, right. Like when we ignore all of that and individualize, we blame people for things that are so much bigger than us and not in our control. And at the same time, there are things that are in our control. So kind of holding those things. I love how you named it as a both/and, because I think that when we lean too much into either, we become in some ways a little bit powerless – or not powerless – just disconnected. I think there’s truth in both of those, I guess, is what I’m saying there.
Lindsay [00:09:39] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Linzy [00:09:41] So we talked a little bit about the procrastination then, which you’re saying is often perfectionism. Just manifesting differently. What about the perfectionism, just straight up perfectionism that you see related to financial anxiety?
Lindsay [00:09:54] So related to financial anxiety, I often see it kind of take shape in consuming a lot of information, listening to a lot of podcasts. Hashtag meta. Listening to a lot of podcasts about personal finance, doing a lot of research. Which bank is the best bank to bank with? For my private practice therapist, which electronic health record is best? Which website provider is best? Right? So spending a lot of time kind of splitting hairs over things that might not be the best use of our energy. And for perfectionists, I love kind of creating a little arbitrary deadline, which is like, you can research this all you want until this time tomorrow, you set a timer for an hour and you can look at the difference between therapy notes and simple practice. But you have to make a decision at the end of that hour. Right. And what that does is it gets us out of our own way, because at the end of the month, is spending $2 more or less really going to make or break it? No. But taking action to get an electronic health record up and running will likely pay you back in terms of energy that you gain back in making it easier for clients to schedule, making it easier for you to bill your clients, make it easier for you to communicate with them. All of those things are just so much more seamless when you have something like an electronic health record. But in non therapists there’s a lot of this researching and consuming information. But then oftentimes what that does is it makes it even worse. As in if I’m just trying to figure out how to create a budget and I start reading books about budgeting, there’s always going to be a little appendix about investing or about life insurance or about, you know, saving up for your kid’s college. And then I’m going to go down the rabbit hole of kids college, investing, saving for retirement. And before I know it, I’ve spent all this time and energy researching things, and yet I haven’t started on my budget, which is again how it comes back to procrastination. Yes, but I want to name that that perfectionism around money also comes from that feeling of discomfort. I don’t like feeling like I don’t know enough. I don’t like feeling like I’m not smart enough and it comes from that place. So if we can be kind and gentle with ourselves again to take forward action, it’s good. And the other thing about money, Linzy, is like, it’s not if we make a mistake with money, it’s when, right? Absolutely. When. And we have to normalize that. We will make financial mistakes, that none of us are perfect. I make plenty of financial mistakes and I will continue to make them sure. And it doesn’t mean that I run full force ahead and I don’t do my due diligence. But there’s just things where, you know, when you look back, that wasn’t the wisest decision. But you keep going.
Linzy [00:12:40] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. The saying that I say sometimes to students in Money Skills is perfect is the enemy of done.
Lindsay [00:12:47] 100%.
Linzy [00:12:48] Because, you know, and the other thing that I’ve started to talk about a lot more with students, is just being in the weeds. You get so in the weeds, you’re so caught up in this, as you say, $2 a month. The detail of like, oh, this one’s kind of better, but it’s $2 more expensive and like that, you miss the big picture. Right. You have to zoom out to the big picture and realize, like, right, regardless of what system I choose, having a system, as you say, that like gets me paid, allows me to keep track of cancelations and bill those people and get people into my schedule makes immediately probably, you know, a 30x return on that $2 that you’re worried about. You know, if it’s a whole session fee for you, but it’s so easy for us to get caught in the little things that don’t matter and not take those like bigger, if imperfect actions that do actually count.
Lindsay [00:13:32] And I can share with your listeners, too, that I am a person who did that. When I first started out in private practice, it was a $40 surcharge or addition to add on electronic billing to my electronic health record. And I was new to starting out and I was like, $40. That’s ridiculous. I’ll do it. And so I did I manually like did my own insurance billing, but it took me between two and 4 hours a week.
Linzy [00:14:00] Whoa okay.
Lindsay [00:14:01] A week! Yeah. So if we think about. Wow, what would I have done? Forget the money, I potentially lost seeing 2 to 4 clients a week that I could have seen, but just the energy spent. When I think back to that time, I’m like, I wasted so much literal time. I missed out on money because I was so scared of spending that $40.
Linzy [00:14:20] Yes, right. It’s like that tightness. I mean, whenever I notice myself or my students in a space of kind of like tightness or restriction, right. Of like $40, that’s a lot of money, when from an outside perspective, somebody to be like, well, is it a lot of money with the money that you’re about to make? That’s always a good clue of like, oh, maybe there’s another way to look at this situation and and valuing your your time too. Because like something that I also think about in terms of our time, in that time for money tradeoff, is like time is not equal, right? So like time, if you choose to do some of your own graphic design because you actually love doing graphic design, that is like time that although you are maybe could be seeing a client making more, you’re enjoying yourself, you’re engaging your creativity, you’re like, Oh, that blue is so pretty, right? That’s very different than time where you’re doing something that like you’re not good at and you hate, which is like going to have an emotional impact on you, which goes beyond that time where, okay, you’ve saved $40, but now you’re in a wretched mood and you’re going to just like eat McDonald’s and like binge on Netflix all night because now you’re like, you know, you feel like you’re bad at things. So I think, yeah, there’s there’s so much nuance to all of these details. And like being connected with those different impacts too, I think adds a lot more to that equation. It’s not just a financial equation, it’s an emotional equation.
Lindsay [00:15:29] Right. And that pressure to scale, to grow to 3x your income or whatever. I also think it’s worth kind of figuring out whose message is that, whose story is that, and is that something I’m willing to take on? Because I have been really intentional and see like no part of me wants a group practice. Could I do that? I have a very full practice with a waitlist of 170 people. Like. That’s ridiculous. A very easy solution, right, would be to hire another clinician. But I don’t want to do that. I have no interest in doing that. It’s no shade to people who do. But I know myself well enough to say that is not going to be the best use of my time and energy. And I’m- I just surveyed my audience to figure out what they want. And, you know, I’ll figure it out. But I’m not willing to sacrifice my mental and emotional well-being just for the sake of earning more money.
Linzy [00:16:17] Absolutely not. Yeah. Like I and the phrase that I think of and this may not resonate with everybody listening based on their spiritual things, but like if this is my one and only human life, how do I spend it? This is my time here that I know for sure I’m going to get. And so it’s like, yeah, if, if you know that managing people is like but yeah, like don’t do it right. No amount of money is going to be worth that. Absolutely. So, yeah, really valuing your your time and your emotional experiences, not just dollars on a page because, you know, dollars in your bank don’t actually make your life better.
Lindsay [00:16:45] Right?
Linzy [00:16:46] It’s everything else that’s happening around them and what you do with them that actually matters.
Lindsay [00:16:50] Mm hmm.
Linzy [00:16:50] So for folks listening, especially if folks identify with this term of financial anxiety, there’s something hovering over us right now that is very financial anxiety inducing for people, which is the R word. Recession. Running around. Yeah. So I’m I’m curious, how are you thinking about the recession and how therapists and health practitioners- how we should be thinking about this looming recession.
Lindsay [00:17:17] Well, first to folks who are younger than me. I’m a millennial. This is not my first recession. And if you’re younger than me, welcome. This might be your first one, but it will certainly not be your last one. And if we go again, to your point, Linzy, of zooming way out, and we look at economy when we think about a recession, it just means that there has not been growth in the economy. Stock markets have gone down for two quarters in a row, which let’s be really clear, these types of things happen all the time. But when we zoom out, there are periods of good economic times and periods of not so good economic times. So the other thing that as therapists we can do, and I’ve been using this analogy all the time, so apologies for folks who know me. You’ve heard this analogy before, but we’re going to go there is that I’ve been saying to my clients and particularly to my therapist clients, we deal with something every single day that we have no control over and we’ve learned how to deal with that. And that particular thing is the weather, which is different from climate, which is a different discussion for a different day. But if you think about the weather, you and I are both you know, we’re a handful of hours apart. So we’re used to when it’s winter here, we’re getting our wool socks, we’re getting our long underwear out, we’re getting our hats or our touques, as you say. And we’re getting all bundled up so that we can make sure that we feel comfortable and safe outside. Same thing if you’re in like Portland or Seattle, you probably have an umbrella on you at all times. If you’re in the South, you’re used to wearing shorts, whatever. Doesn’t matter. I could go on and on. But the idea here is we can’t change certain things, but we can change how we are prepared for them or how we adapt to them. So as we prepare for a recession or as we experience a recession, we have to think about, yes, I can’t change how the stock market performs or whether or not Amazon’s going to lay off more people. I have no control over that. But what I do have control over is figuring out what will make me feel more financially secure in the face of this recession weather. And for me personally, I’m looking at bulking up my emergency fund a little bit more. I had topped it off or so I thought, and now I’m like, You know what? I think I’m going to start contributing to it again just to give myself a little bit more breathing room when it comes to my private practice. I actually just de-paneled for my last insurance provider, which some people would say Lindsay isn’t insurance a guaranteed income stream. But for me, I’m like looking at that gap in what insurance pays me versus what my out-of-pocket fee is. And I’m like, that no longer makes sense given the context of where we are going. Other things that therapists can consider is making sure that if looking at their retirement accounts, it’s causing them a ton of anxiety because it’s all red numbers and arrows pointing down right now. You don’t have to look. And I know it sounds weird to like do nothing with money, but when it comes to retirement, if you’re listening to this, hopefully you’re at least ten years out from retirement, which means the numbers that are in that retirement account right now will not be the numbers that they are when you do need that money. So saving more, continuing investing and then increasing your income. I know I talked about my fee, but also as therapists: marketing. Marketing invisibility is a way to kind of protect us from the weather. As awful as it sounds, as therapists, we know that we’ve been in more demand in the past two and a half years than ever. We’ve had crises on top of crises on top of crises. And the demand for therapy continues to be high. And as we enter into a recession, some people are saying like, oh, people are going to stop therapy to save money. And I’m like, no, they are not. If anything else, they’re going to make sure that they’re taking care of their mental health and they might cut other things like that Netflix subscription. And also there are so many ways to be accessible, which is a different tirade for a different day. But those would be the things that I would tell private practice therapists is increase your savings if you can, check your sliding scale, check your insurance rates and see if you can still afford to offer them. At that rate, make sure that you’re marketing your services and showing up consistently. And when it comes to retirement, just like don’t really look at it as often right now.
Linzy [00:21:32] And there is a distinction to be made there, as you kind of indicated, between not looking at your your investments. Right. And that that other kind of like procrastination avoidance we were talking about earlier, one of my students told me the phrase that she was given is like, you know, stock market is like a roller coaster. So like buckle up and don’t try to jump off yet. So don’t try to jump off. You don’t jump off. Right. If this is really the money that you are going to be using to do stuff with your grandkids or go on amazing trips, you know, when you are retired, you don’t need it for so long, like leave it alone. And that’s very different than avoiding. This is like very mindful. Don’t react, right? Like don’t don’t panic. Basically, don’t panic. But which I think is very different than what you were talking about earlier of procrastination, because the procrastination is about the things that we can control. Right. Those things that you’re talking about, like the emergency fund, that’s something you could do something about. You know, looking at your numbers and calculating if they still work for you, you can do something about that. But we can’t, looking at our investments doesn’t make them any better. Right. But it is a good way to make yourself feel very stressed if you’re looking for a good shot of stress.
Lindsay [00:22:36] Absolutely. Yes.
Linzy [00:22:39] And I love you put it in context, because I think I am also a millennial, an elder millennial, not to brag, but and so there have been other recessions, certainly in my lifetime. But I also think that just where I was in my career and my life, I wasn’t necessarily paying attention to them then like I am now. And so I think kind of like as we get older, we start to notice it as we’re running businesses. But that definition that you give of a recession where it’s just a time where the economy like where, you know, stocks do not increase, the stock market doesn’t increase for two quarters. Mm hmm. That doesn’t mean that everything’s burned to the ground. Exactly right. And I think that we have this idea, obviously, in capitalism, the story is endless growth, endless prosperity. And that’s not actually how it works. So it’s just like this is just how it works. Market correction is the other term. Right? Yeah. If we want to let you frame it. Yeah, it’s a little market correction. Things have gotten a little out of control. But I agree. I don’t think that it’s going to be massively impact us in our sector. Yeah, if I was working at Amazon, I might be nervous. Right. Because there’s certain areas where big corporations are going to make these big moves. But none of us are working for those big corporations and like good for us that we’ve created financial security. And your boss is not going to fire you.
Lindsay [00:23:47] Yeah. Yeah.
Linzy [00:23:48] Because you’re your own boss. So, Lindsay, if folks who are listening are thinking, well, yes, I do have financial anxiety. You’ve, like, hit the nail on the head. This is my life with money. What would be some small first steps that they could take to start to shift this financial anxiety for themselves?
Lindsay [00:24:07] I think it’s a blend of the the practical and the emotional, which is basically what we’ve been talking about during this entire podcast interview. But thinking about what is the area in my personal finance life that is the most important for me to start feeling less anxiety around. So kind of choosing that area that feels the most important because the reality is all things with personal finance are important. And getting started with one area is better than getting started with no areas. So if for you, saving an emergency fund feels like the most important thing to do, then that’s what I would invite you to do and just start working on that one thing. Just like we don’t tell our clients to just do life overhauls, we tell them, try one thing for a week and let me know how it went when I see you next week. Right. We have to give ourselves that type of permission to take steady steps, not small steps, toward making change and giving ourselves permission that we’re so much smarter than we think we are around money. I think so many therapists say things like, Well, I went into therapy because I’m not good at math or science. And I’m like, Yeah, I failed college algebra. The type of math that we need to be to have a good relationship with money is like very, very minimal. And also the internet exists. So Google a calculator and you’ll be fine. So giving ourselves more credit that we are smart enough to understand this stuff.
Linzy [00:25:35] Yes. And I think too, you know, therapists, this is one of the things that I think can make therapists and health practitioners especially anxious around money, is I think that we’re used to being really good at things. At least, certainly the folks that I see and work with in Money Skills, is like we’re usually achievers who are used to just being like, Oh, I learned that easy peasy. And so when something is not easy, I think it’s especially tempting to want to like avoid it and spiral into shame because you’re like, Well, if I’m not good at this, it must be because something permanent and fixed about me rather than like, we’re never really taught this. And also people talk about this in a very specific way that is not your language. And like once you get it translated and once you have kind of a corrective experience, what I do find is, as you say, it’s not it’s not the hardest math. It’s arithmetic. Mm hmm. And you can do arithmetic. It’s just, I think oh, so much of it is like when that anxiety starts to calm and you start to shift, then your brain can come online and start doing the math thing that it absolutely is capable of doing. Yeah, absolutely. So, Lindsay, if folks want to get further into your world, what is the best way for them to find you?
Lindsay [00:26:41] Yeah. My business is called Mind Money Balance, and you can pretty much find me all the places under that handle. My website. My podcast is of the same name. My Instagram handle is of the same name. So you can find me there if you’re interested in learning more about your personal relationship to money, I have a free quiz that’s fun to take. It helps you understand a little bit more about your money archetype at mindmoneybalance.com/quiz. Pretty easy to remember. And then, yeah, as you mentioned, Linzy, my book is over my shoulder. It’s called The Financial Anxiety Solution. And it’s a workbook that really kind of comes at money from kind of an active CBT acceptance based lens. And it’s not really about the mapping to your point, it’s more about the emotions. So that could be a good starting point for therapists. And If you’re going to order my book, I really encourage you to call or email your local bookstore and have them order it for you. It’s just a good way to keep those dollars kind of flowing throughout your community versus, you know, overnighting it on Prime.
Linzy [00:27:41] Yes. Yes. Awesome. Thank you so much, Lindsay, for joining me today. It’s been really wonderful talking with you. Thank you.
Lindsay [00:27:48] It’s fun chatting with you again.
Linzy [00:28:02] I really appreciated, in my conversation with Lindsay, that analogy about the weather. When it comes to recession, I think recession is a word that’s so scary and so loaded, and it can definitely spiral us into the kind of anxious thinking that everything’s about to go sideways. Nobody’s going to come see me anymore. My business is going into the ground, you know, endless opportunity there for catastrophic thinking and black and white thinking and all of those things. And as she mentioned, we all have the capacity to do certain things to support ourselves around the things that we can’t control. So those things that she mentioned around, you know, building up your emergency fund or looking at your numbers just makes so much sense in terms of we can’t control everything about it. And I don’t think it’s going to be that bad for us. But there are things that we can do. And even if those things just give you a little bit more of a sense of like grounding and control, if you have found yourself feeling anxious about the recession, then you’re doing something and you’re taking action and you’re letting those feelings that you have do something in your life rather than carrying them around. And frankly, it’s almost never a bad idea to shore up your emergency fund a little more. So if you don’t have an emergency fund and you’re like, Oh, that’s bringing in financial anxiety for you, then that is a great first step. Just getting a little bit of money put away, that is for those rainy days. Even if you’re only putting away, you know, a couple hundred dollars a month. What I’ve often found is just seeing yourself taking those actions in your finances can start to alleviate anxiety because it makes you realize, I can do these things. These things are within my reach. And there’s something so powerful about that, taking small actions and then pausing long enough to take in the fact that we are taking action and notice and start to shift our beliefs around what we are capable of and let ourselves have new stories about how we act and what we do around money. It’s very powerful. So great advice from Lindsay and definitely check her out on Instagram. She has a wonderful Instagram presence. She also has so many different ways that she supports therapists and people in general with finances and private practice. Definitely worth checking out. I’m so glad you joined me today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. We share practical and emotional money content on there all the time, and if you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave me a review. It is the best way for new therapists who want to be part of these conversations to find me. Thanks for listening today.