Sherry [00:00:02] I feel like there’s those two “me”s and sometimes I try to live in that more hopeful state, and I’m definitely a more positive person than I used to be. I’m able to do that a lot more often because I’ve had these opportunities of taking these courses and raising my fees and getting somewhere, and I’ve been so blessed with so much encouragement and support along the way. And I just really wanna name that.
Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills For Therapists podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion, to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach, and creator of the course Money Skills For Therapists. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s Money Skills For Therapists episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Sherry Merriam. Sherry is a LPC in Minneapolis. She’s been in practice for 13 years, working in health care for 22 years, and she’s worked at various group practices in the past, including co-owning a practice before. Just last October, she started her private practice and opened a collaborative practice in January, which we’ll talk about a little bit more during our coaching call today. Sherry was bringing forward today the challenge of how to structure your private practice and think about money and plan money when you have chronic illness. She shared about the limitations that her chronic illness puts on her clinical ability, but even her ability to do other things sometimes, and trying to think about this and actually build it in to the way that she’s built the practice. You’ll hear in our conversation she’s already made a lot of gains in this area. She’s definitely not starting from scratch. She’s already been very thoughtful. And we dug more into the details of how to build a healthy practice that financially meets her needs with that limited energy that she has. And the reality that if she does push herself, she pays the price in exhaustion and needing to crash. And so it’s not something that she’s able to push through. So if you are somebody who has chronic illness, if you are lower energy or find that you’re just your clinical limit is not as high as the people around you, this episode is for you. We really think through a lot of the pieces involved in making sure you’re setting up a practice that suits you and your energy and your needs and enjoy. Sherry, welcome to the podcast.
Sherry [00:02:47] Thank you. Very glad to be here.
Linzy [00:02:49] Yeah, I am excited to have you here. So we were just talking off mic about how you’d like, just finished Money Skills For Therapists. So I was just noticing that I haven’t seen you in a couple of weeks because I saw you quite a bit. You were very active in the course.
Sherry [00:03:01] Right. I wanted to get everything out of it.
Linzy [00:03:03] I’m very familiar with your your background. And and so for our time together today, tell me what you want to have more clarity on by the end of our call.
Sherry [00:03:12] So something that has always been present in my work as a therapist is balancing the work, the money, and the chronic illness. And it continues to be present. And so just I always try to find ways to get support with that and to support myself through that.
Linzy [00:03:32] Okay. So tell me right now, let’s say you start with right now, what are you noticing that are the challenges around that in this moment or recently?
Sherry [00:03:40] Well, a perfect example is literally just this weekend. That’s how still present it is. We – my family and I – went away for a little mini vacation and it was lovely. And it was planned to be sort of a work retreat slash vacation, like do some fun things maybe during part of the day and then maybe do some do some work during part of the day. And my husband’s a writer. He likes to write. So he was going to get some writing time in and I was going to get some working time in catching up on some things. But my my energy levels just didn’t quite keep up. And so we had our fun adventuring. And then when we get home, I would need a three or four hour nap. And to most people, a nap is 30 minutes but, I lost all of my work time every day. And that was frustrating.
Linzy [00:04:30] Yeah. So a perfect example where even on a vacation you get depleted and you need a lot of rest in your day, it sounds like it’s hard to do all the things that you want to be able to do in the day. It’s just not possible sometimes.
Sherry [00:04:43] Right. Right. Exactly. And I’m and achiever, like you saw in the class. I’m just always present. I want my A. I just listened to Jenn Fredette’s episode with you and you guys talked about we’re going to get our A.
Linzy [00:04:56] Oh, yes.
Sherry [00:04:57] And I’m there with you guys and I want to do well in my business. And I’m always trying to do everything which does not balance well with my illness. I have chronic illness, chronic migraines, chronic pain. And I push myself too far. And just like a lot of people with chronic illness and I just. I just want to do it all.
Linzy [00:05:16] Absolutely.
Sherry [00:05:17] So that impacts my income, of course.
Linzy [00:05:19] Of course. Yeah. So in your business and in your practice, tell me so far, what have you done to suit your practice to your energy and your needs?
Sherry [00:05:29] There’s quite a few things I’ve done. I’ve tweaked a lot over the time and I’ve been a therapist for 13 years, and one of the main things that I’ve done is with my schedule and limiting the number of clients that I see in a week. I’m currently at about eight a week and I’m working my way up to ten. I just booked another new client today and I almost didn’t. I’m starting to build up my my new practice and I don’t work for other people. I don’t like to work for other people. Other people get mad. When you take sick days, the last group practice I worked for took it really well, but the one that I worked for not long ago did not take it well when I took sick days. And I understand it affects their bottom line. So I don’t like working for other people. I work for myself.
Linzy [00:06:14] Yes. Yeah. Okay.
Sherry [00:06:15] But I have to limit the amount of hours that I see clients or when that creeps up, then the sick days creep up as well. Because I have a system that’s a bed of energy, right?
Linzy [00:06:24] So the more you work, the more your body’s actually going to say no or push back or whatever metaphor however you think about that.
Sherry [00:06:31] Yeah, exactly.
Linzy [00:06:32] It does it not let you just push through.
Sherry [00:06:34] Up to a certain point, but then I will pay the price.
Linzy [00:06:37] Yeah. The first thing occurs to me is just how good it is that you have built the skills to have your own practice. And I relate to you – not in having chronic illness, but just in not being able to see a lot of clients. Right. And that when we work for ourselves, we can do that. And as you say, when you’re working for someone else, their feelings come into the mix if you’re not able to work because you’re affecting their income. But it sounds like you’ve solved that problem, right? No longer are you having to deal with anybody else’s opinions or feelings or their financial anxiety. You’ve moved your business just completely into your own space and you’re doing your own thing. Now, something that I’m curious about, Sherry, is have you got the numbers working yet so that the amount that you work is enough for you financially?
Sherry [00:07:18] No, that has always been an obstacle from the beginning because I’m so limited in the number of clients that I can see, the the income just doesn’t cut it. And you know, when you can only see a certain number of clients, and I’ve been insurance based up until last year, I took Tiffany McLain’s Lean In Make Bank class. And so I left that group practice in October of last year. And I went 100% private pay and that is helping a lot. And so I’m finally starting to make some real money, which is fantastic. And we’re trying to buy a house this year. And turning over my tax records was very discouraging when I looked at that bottom number.
Linzy [00:08:00] Yes.
Sherry [00:08:01] So, yeah, I’m definitely not there yet. Crunching some numbers and looking at what I’m charging and I just increased my fee again. So I’m trying to get there.
Linzy [00:08:10] Yeah. Because I mean, that’s something that I would be curious about is, given where your fee is at this moment, you know, projecting forward, whatever that manageable number of sessions is not making yourself have to plan to work more but projecting for that a manageable and you said 8 to 10 is that clients in total or sessions per week.
Sherry [00:08:29] That is sessions per week.
Linzy [00:08:32] 8-10 sessions per week. So with that 8 to 10 sessions per week, do you know where you would land after business expenses this year? If kind of like that becomes the normal going forward minus the vacation time that you want to take? Do you know where you’re headed.
Sherry [00:08:44] After expenses? No.
Linzy [00:08:47] Okay.
Sherry [00:08:47] Yeah, I’m working on that. Thanks to the tools that I learned from your course.
Linzy [00:08:52] Yes.
Sherry [00:08:53] I’m working towards that. I’m still plugging those numbers in.
Linzy [00:08:56] Because that would be the first thing to figure out is, with the changes that you’ve already made, what do they mean? Because sometimes with business, I think it’s easy for us to want to see change happen fast. Right. And want that magic thing that suddenly we see the magic number of whatever number we’ve set for ourself, which is often an arbitrary number. And and you would get a lot of arbitrary numbers thrown at us about what success looks like. But for you, I’d be curious about what is your success number and how close is this path that you’ve already started to carve for yourself, the hard work you’ve already done of, you know, like doing the mindset work to be able to raise your fee and get off insurance. Now raising your fee. What does it mean for you this year? Minus business expenses. And in terms of resources that could be helpful for you with that at a high level, it could be the salary play sheet from Money Skills For Therapists to get you zoomed out. So once you have a sense of kind of your average business expenses, you can plug those in, but then you can set your goal and see how many sessions a week and your fee and have that zoomed out view on it because there is actually an equation there that will work. So it’s also just being curious of how high would your fee have to be to see that 8 to 10. And I would personally set it at eight, to see that 8 a week, and have all the numbers work.
Sherry [00:10:10] Yeah. And that would leave me a little wiggle room, too, because I have a couple of supervisors that I see once or twice a week. And I love doing that work. And there’s also a consult group that I want to run. And so that would leave me a little room for those things. And I like that kind of variety as well.
Linzy [00:10:26] Totally. Absolutely.
Sherry [00:10:27] And I want to have energy for that. That’s one thing that keeps my energy up.
Linzy [00:10:31] Absolutely.
Sherry [00:10:32] Doing that kind of work.
Linzy [00:10:33] And that’s absolutely the next place my brain was going is what are other income sources that maybe don’t tax you in the same way and you might be able to add on top of clinical work that you would still have a good week and make that a little bit extra money and not run the risk of of crashing. Right. And being depleted. And so I’m hearing clinical supervision is one of those things. Right. I know you also have a group practice. I don’t know a lot about that. Is that an income source for you?
Sherry [00:10:57] It’s not yet. And what it is, is it sort of a group practice? Sort of not. It’s basically a medium sized sublet, but it’s run on a more collaborative model than most sublets. So we offer more amenities so that we can create more of a collaborative vibe, more of a community vibe. And so I’m charging rent and then they get a lot of perks. And then that way I’m nobody’s boss and they’re not my boss because I want everybody to feel independent and be able to run their practice their way.
Linzy [00:11:27] Yes, I love that vision. Yeah.
Sherry [00:11:29] Oh, and yet we have this great vibe. Like our last couple of staff meetings, we’ve been discussing these cases that we’re working on together, sharing families and that sort of thing. And it’s exactly the vibe that I wanted.
Linzy [00:11:43] Great. Okay. Yeah. So with that, I hear, yeah, it’s not a typical group practice in the sense that, you know, you’re not getting a cut of people’s sessions and not their boss, but you are creating a space, you’re creating a community space, you’re kind of a clinic space where folks are independent clinicians, but there’s also all these nice sharing community elements to it.
Sherry [00:12:04] Yeah.
Linzy [00:12:05] So with that, my understanding that that’s not really profitable per say?
Sherry [00:12:08] Not yet. I need more tenants to help cover the bills. And so I’m currently still trying to build that because we just opened in January. Yes, I’m doing some networking, trying to get some more tenants in and then once I have enough tenants, I’ll be able to not only pay the bills but make some money on it.
Linzy [00:12:25] And do you know when that that flipping point is where you do become profitable and there’s some extra money above the bills?
Sherry [00:12:30] It depends on who takes up how much space, because I’m offering full time, part time flexible this or that.
Linzy [00:12:37] Okay. Because that’s something I would also encourage you to get some more clarity on because there’s kind of a couple paths here. And if that something I mean, it sounds very energizing, but you’re describing this beautiful community and I know being in the right space with other clinicians like it just adds lightness and support, which we all need in the work that we do. And I wonder how much that may be a path to creating more income for you that would be less tiring than clinical work and less taxing now.
Sherry [00:13:09] And I do love it. I love the work that I, you know, creating this space was exhausting. It was four months of 80 hour weeks, which I do not recommend as someone with a chronic illness or for anybody.
Linzy [00:13:24] Yes.
Sherry [00:13:25] But now that it’s now that we have it, I love it so much. I’m so proud of it.
Linzy [00:13:30] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So that would be something else I would encourage you to find out, because what can happen to us when we have clarity is then you can, in a focused way, go after who you’re looking for, right? If you run the numbers and realize like, okay, if I have three people doing kind of these like small subsets, it ends up being the same as like one person. Then maybe you- one full time, then maybe it’s spending your energy really putting out those feelers of like, I’m looking for someone who wants to join our community full time, incredible community, tell people that, you know, like then you can be very clear and envisioning what you’re looking for. And often that focus goes a long way to, if you want to be woo about it, calling in the right people, if you want to be practical about it, finding the right person because you’re asking the right questions and you go in the right direction however you want to think about it. How does that sit with you? That idea of this being another way to really offset the amount of clinical work you have to do?
Sherry [00:14:22] Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Linzy [00:14:24] Yeah. Because I mean, you built the machine, right? And worked very hard at it. And so it sounds like you’re actually very close to it working for you at this point. So that little bit of extra is going to tip you over into more ease. Because then the final piece, Sherry, that I’m curious about is do you know what your number is? Like what is your number of enough? Or that’s, you know, your sufficiency number where your needs are met. It’s good. You’re not going to be- there’s not going to be financial stress. And you don’t have to push yourself any harder.
Sherry [00:14:55] Really. I don’t know. I’ve I’ve gotten so used to, for so many years, living on so little that – and I mean so little. I make less than my supervisee does.
Linzy [00:15:06] Yes. Yes.
Sherry [00:15:07] And both of my supervisees. And so I really should run some numbers. You’re right. That’s a good idea. And I think I’ve been afraid to, to be honest, I’ve been afraid to set my my sights on any kind of financial goal because I changed careers to become a therapist, to make more money. And I have not, in any one single year, made more money as a therapist than I did in my previous career. So there is a pretty distinct feeling of discouragement. I love what I do so much and I have no regrets in any way. I do really love what I do, but there’s so much opportunity for abuse and being taken advantage of, especially as a supervisor and those sorts of things that at this point I’m pretty discouraged, which is why I’ve taken such efforts through these courses and now I have hope, but I’m also afraid to have hope, you know what I mean?
Linzy [00:16:02] Yes.
Sherry [00:16:02] So so I think I’m on that cusp and I’m definitely seeing more money, you know, in the past, since October. But until I see it on my tax return, it won’t feel real.
Linzy [00:16:14] That’s when it’s real. When it’s on your taxes. Yeah.
Sherry [00:16:16] Until I see a number that’s bigger than, than what I was making when I changed careers. Yeah.
Linzy [00:16:21] And I mean in that I hear, Yeah. That very familiar fear to hope. Right. It’s safer to not look or it’s safer to- I don’t know if it’s about staying small, like, well, where are you now? Like, what is the state that you’re in that you’re maybe going to move out of? Well, how would you describe where you are now when it comes to your numbers or your relationship with your earning?
Sherry [00:16:44] I think I vacillate there’s the motivated business woman who listens to the courses and the podcasts and does the homework and looks around at what I’ve accomplished so far and feels so proud and encouraged and can do the work and make the accomplishments and get somewhere. And so there’s that. There’s that woman. Yeah, but then there’s the woman who, you know, is trying to apply for a mortgage and, you know, looks at the hard numbers and sometimes gets really discouraged. And so I feel like there’s those two mes and sometimes I try to live in that more hopeful state. Yes, I am definitely more positive person than I used to be. I’m able to do that a lot more often because I’ve had these opportunities of taking these courses and raising my fees and getting somewhere. And I’ve been so blessed with so much encouragement and support along the way, so much I never could have believed how many people have supported me and been there for me and helped me along the way. And I just really want to name that. And so I’m- it makes it easier for me to live in that headspace and do the work. And get there so that I don’t give up.
Linzy [00:17:55] Yeah.
Sherry [00:17:56] And that’s that’s a big thing that I think that really helps me.
Linzy [00:17:59] Yeah. And I mean, with that, like that headspace or, you know, that motivated business woman part of yourself, how are you thinking about that part of you. I mean, what does that part of, you know, that maybe the the disappointed part doesn’t know about yet.
Sherry [00:18:14] Like it’s possible. I’ve seen others do it. I’ve already accomplished so much and I’ve had so much help. And so many people believe in me, even when it’s hard for me to believe in myself. And if and when I do struggle, there are people to hold me up.
Linzy [00:18:34] Right. Yeah. I’m really hearing this piece about support and community, and it sounds like that’s a big value for you, right? Because you’ve also created this community space to practice within. Right. And to share with other people. So thinking about your path forward with this then, Sherry, I mean, first of all, I’d like to invite you to think about what would it be like if you just let yourself work eight sessions a week and that was your normal, first of all, what would that be like for you?
Sherry [00:19:00] That that is lovely. That is lovely. That’s what I was working about when I left the group practice last year. I had cut back to that. Yeah. And just the ease of that.
Linzy [00:19:10] Yeah. And with that ease, what else then becomes possible in terms of your income, your life, what does that open up to?
Sherry [00:19:18] It leaves so much more time for things like these other projects, like being able to get this practice off the ground, this clinic off the ground, and being able to focus on these sorts of things that I’m really excited about. You know, I was able to take on these two supervisees, which was an important value of mine for a variety of reasons. And so that’s that’s really special to me and really nourishes me as a, as a person, as a supervisor, as a clinician. And in a variety of ways helps me feel like I’m giving back to the community, to the professional community. Right? And so that allows that, which is fabulous and it gives me the space to just have a little brain at the end of the day.
Linzy [00:20:00] Yes. And having a little brain at the end of the day. What does that mean for your life?
Sherry [00:20:04] Yeah, there’s there’s possibility to- I’m home for dinner every day, except the one day that I decide to work late, and that’s mostly so I could do a workout class online in my office.
Linzy [00:20:17] Yes. So is that something then that you’ve already kind of sorted out? Are you saying then like being home for dinner?
Sherry [00:20:22] That’s a marker of like. Mm, I’m home for dinner with my family like every day except that one day that it’s because I’m working out, I’m able to adjust my schedule any way I want so I can work out in my office. And I love that, and I love those workouts. And I can do that because it’s my damn office.
Linzy [00:20:41] Yes, yes, yes. And this is, you know, something that’s kind of coming to my mind as you’re talking is how do you continue to build out your practice as something that nurtures you, right? So that balance of the clinical work that you love, but maybe might at some point become a drain balancing in that clinical supervision work that, you know, lights you up and then the community pieces like you’re already in so many ways bringing that nurturing into your practice. So it makes me curious about like what little tweaks you make to make that even better. Where are the limits that you need to be setting, trusting that those other ways that you have of bringing in income are going to be there and allow you to function right and be well while supporting yourself financially.
Sherry [00:21:22] Yeah. Variety has always been one of the best and worst things about me because I love to write. Because I love to do all the things. Yes, all the things. And the problem is, is I need to remember to do all the things that bring in revenue. So that’s that’s one thing that I need to stay focused on in my work is I can do all the things. But does it bring in money?
Linzy [00:21:47] Yes. Yes. Well, and the beautiful thing is, once you’re clear on your numbers – and I am encouraging you to do that after we speak, like looking at that, what is the number you actually need to live? Right. And maybe holding the hand of that disappointed part internally, like doing that care because it is hard, you know, when when the numbers have not been what you want to see. And I can relate I will say in terms of mortgages because I always start businesses and then try to get a mortgage, which is like – wrong order. You’re not supposed to do it that way. I’ve done it twice now where I’m having to show like start up numbers and I’m like, No, no, but it’s going really well and be kind of judged really. You are being judged by a financial body. So I can relate to that experience. I will just say, but getting clear on what it takes to live. Right. And and maybe that’s a conversation that you have with your partner. What do you need to be earning between the two of you? Right. To support your household? And then getting clear on what is your hard boundary with clinical work? And then what are those other things that you want to be focusing on to maybe increase your income beyond what clinical work can bring you to hit that number that you need to not just live but be well.
Sherry [00:22:50] Exactly. And that’s the be well part. It’s like, well, I’ve gotten by on a little up until now but the be well part, like since October roughly, or even more recently, I started doing monthly massages. And that’s been one of my. I’ve never done such a splurge on myself as pay for a massage and now I’ve started doing that and I would love to do that more often, but to splurge on it just once a month is already it’s just such a nuts thing for me to do. But my body as badly messed up as it is, I would love to do that more often. Just, just the fantasy of doing something like that.
Linzy [00:23:35] Yes. Well and I think part of the thing is when we do have health issues going on, you know, or higher sensitivity or lower energy or whatever your version of being well might require more of those things than someone else who, you know, has a body that just lets them run all day and doesn’t ever seem to really, like, catch up with them. I would speculate that most people eventually we burn out, you know, when you push yourself hard enough for long enough. But certainly not everybody’s body speaks up or protests or shuts them down for 3 or 4 hours after, you know, like just a nice morning of doing vacation things. So. Part of it, too, is really looking at what are your specific needs? Maybe for you, a massage every two weeks or every week is basic self-care. Maybe that’s what your body needs to offset the things that are happening in it. Right. And I wonder what it would be like for you if you really made friends with those self-care needs and built them into the way that you think about what is just normal wellness for you. Baseline wellness, not a splurge, not a treat, but like this is what I do to take care of my body because my body lets me do literally everything else.
Sherry [00:24:44] Mhm. Yeah. Put that as a line item in the budget.
Linzy [00:24:47] Exactly.
Sherry [00:24:49] Because it needs to be there.
Linzy [00:24:50] Exactly. Exactly. So Sherry, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you taking away from our session today?
Sherry [00:24:56] It’s really helpful to to think of these things as as fundamental and to think of that kind of self-care as part of not only, you know, who I am as a person, but also who I am as a therapist because it’s so necessary to the work to keep this machine going. This therapy doing and other thing doing machine.
Linzy [00:25:17] All the things doing.
Sherry [00:25:18] All the things doing. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And I think that that’s that’s so important to the functioning. Functioning is such a high priority to me, which is, I guess, ironic, since functioning is something I struggle with so much. And I think that it’s always useful to hear that feedback that it’s- because I eventually I’ll get it through my brain that it’s okay to need those things. It’s not only okay, it’s encouraged to utilize that and to not only to utilize them, but to work them into the budget and work them into the financial goals and to do what I need to do to make them fit into my professional life.
Linzy [00:25:56] Absolutely. Yeah. And I wonder how those can just be neutral, matter of fact things or positive self-care things, but very much as you say, just built into your numbers and how you plan your money every month.
Sherry [00:26:09] Right. Yeah. I think the more I hear that, the more- the sooner I’ll get there.
Linzy [00:26:13] Yes. Yes. Thank you so much, Sherry.
Sherry [00:26:16] Yeah, thank you.
Linzy [00:26:32] Something that really sticks out for me in my conversation with Sherry today is, first of all, how easy it is to want to push past our limits. You know, whether you have limits because of chronic illness or even if it’s just that your clinical capacity, you can only see so many clients a week before you start to find that you’re getting drained, you’re not enjoying the work, you’re not being as effective. It can be so easy for us to want to push past those limits and, you know, set a range of, well, my ideal is this, but I can do up to this. I see this so much in Money Skills For Therapists when I’m talking with clinicians about our limits at our range. We are so used to pushing ourselves too hard and we’re so used to putting our own needs aside. That can be hard to really own. This is my boundary. This is how many sessions a week that I can do. But when we do set that boundary and when we set it in a clear and neutral way, it can open up so much opportunity. Like Sherry was talking about in this episode, to be curious about exploring other ways to bring money into your life and to, you know, top up that private practice paycheck from other places. If that’s something that energizes you, if you’re someone like Sherry and you love variety and you want to be doing multiple things, then setting a limit on the area where there might be limits already, which is one on one private work, that clinical work, then you have the opportunity like Sherry has to open up that collaborative practice, you know, do a consultation, start a clinical consultation group actually by saying No over here we’re able to say yes in other places. And that can be so nurturing and actually give us energy rather than depleting energy, which is what can happen when we push ourselves too hard. That second piece that I want to really emphasize again at the end of this episode is just how valuable it is to be clear on your numbers, to be able to make these decisions. Once you know how much you need to make, then you can see how much you need to earn. And to see how much you need to earn, you also need to understand what your business expenses are. Once you’re clear on how much you need to bring in the door because it costs you this much to run your business. So this is how much you can bring home. Then you can actually build your business to suit that. And like I was just talking about, that might not be that it all comes from one on one sessions, but then you have a number to actually aim for rather than just kind of feeling like, I need to earn more, I need to earn more. That’s a losing game, which makes us feel like it’s a never enough. But if we don’t actually have clarity on what enough would be, we’re never going to have relief from that. We’re never going to win. So that clarity is huge in letting us build practices that actually take care of us and giving us permission to stop and rest when we’ve actually hit that place where money. There’s enough. You’re okay. If you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts. I am posting free private practice content on there all the time about both the practical and emotional sides of money. And of course, if you’re enjoying this podcast, please take 3 minutes to jump over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. It is the best way for folks to find us. I would love to have so many more years listening to these episodes and being involved in these conversations by proxy. And so if you could take a minute to review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for listening today.