Meet Caitlin Walsh

Caitlin [00:00:05] One of my challenges lately had been like, after taxes, feeling like this job is really, can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapist podcast, where we answer this question How can therapists and health practitioners go from money, shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives? I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy [00:00:51] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a coaching episode with Money Skills for Therapists grad Caitlin Walsh. Caitlin is in LPC in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She specializes in working with women who have challenges with anxiety, relationships, self-esteem and, or grief. And today in our conversation, Caitlin and I got into the question of managing fear and kind of being with the fear of having made the decision to go off insurance and taking out-of-pocket clients only. So, Caitlin has made this decision a little while ago, and so now she’s in that point of like being in the decision that she’s made. And I think we can all relate with that, where you’ve made a decision and you’re like, Okay, now I’m in it. Now I have to tolerate it and manage it. And so we talked today about managing fear and what brought her to make that decision. And of course, because this is the Money Skills for Therapists podcast, we also got into the number side of really grounding in and understanding, you know, what actually needs to happen, the numbers behind what needs to happen and what the numbers mean as she actually starts to move more towards the expansive practice that she was envisioning when she made this change. Here’s my conversation with Caitlin Walsh. 

Linzy [00:02:20] So, Caitlyn, welcome to the podcast. 

Caitlin [00:02:23] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:02:24] So I appreciate you coming on to do a coaching episode with me today. So for folks listening, just to get a little bit of context, when did you finish up Money Skills for Therapists? 

Caitlin [00:02:35] I finished just a couple months ago, I think about three months ago. 

Linzy [00:02:39] Okay. Okay. And what prompted you to join Money Skills for Therapists. What brought you into the course in the first place? 

Caitlin [00:02:45] I had dropped back down to part-time when I had my second daughter. And the year after I did that, when I had to do my taxes, I had this challenge where I had a bunch of money due that I wasn’t prepared for, and I usually am pretty prepared and I thought I had done everything. And then because of some shifts with my partner’s job and then because I worked more that year and hadn’t, I guess hadn’t checked in enough with my accountant, I had like a really big tax bill and had to use my savings. And so. 

Linzy [00:03:27] Right. 

Caitlin [00:03:28] Just felt like I maybe had done something wrong or wanted more of a system to figure out, like if there were shifts and changes like that took off a bit. So yeah, that’s kind of what prompted me. 

Linzy [00:03:42] Okay. Yeah. You had, you ended up undersaving for taxes, even though, even though you thought you were doing well and are usually very on top of things because of those shifts, those changes that had happened. 

Caitlin [00:03:51] Right. And so I was just sort of frustrated with the process and just sort of thinking I needed a little bit more information and maybe a little more of like I started like a system that kind of made sense to me. 

Linzy [00:04:05] Awesome. Okay, so for our time together today for this coaching session, what would you like to focus on today? 

Caitlin [00:04:14] Well, I just made the shift from insurance panel to just private pay. Okay. And that’s been kind of a long process. I was with an insurance company that it took six months to get out of. 

Linzy [00:04:28] Oh, wow. Okay. 

Caitlin [00:04:30] I was preparing and preparing and preparing with my clients and we talked a lot about it. And so what I’m noticing now is I kept a bunch of my clients, but a lot of them have dropped from weekly or biweekly appointments down to, like, less than that. 

Linzy [00:04:48] Okay. 

Caitlin [00:04:48] And I I’m trying to stay as calm as I can about just the shifting and changing of that and needing to do more promotion and marketing and maybe that not being like my first skill set. 

Linzy [00:05:02] Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:05:05] Not my best skillset, so I’m trying. I’m doing my best. So just kind of noticing how that feels and. 

Linzy [00:05:13] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess my, my first question is, what are you noticing is happening with this transition and like, having some clients drop-down in frequency? So I’m hearing you’ve kept a lot of your clients, but they’re many. Is it many are seeing you less or some are seeing you less? Like what has happened to your numbers? 

Caitlin [00:05:28] Yeah, I’d say most, most are probably seeing me less. Like they want to stay. But, you know, they’re used to the insurance model. And so, yeah, I think that’s how they were managing that increase and was till like dropped down their sections. And then I have gotten some new, some new clients, but like less inquiries than I was used to, you know? So insurance companies are sending you quite a few. I had a really big insurance company that sent me a lot, so weekly I probably have at least a couple inquiries. And now I’d say maybe one a week or one every two weeks and not necessarily always the best fit. And so I’ve gotten some new people. I, I’ve worked super hard on my website. I also just recently now I had been referred to a person who does SEO, and she had to wait to work with them. And so just now they’re working on it. So I do think that, that will help. 

Linzy [00:06:23] Mm hmm. 

Caitlin [00:06:24] I do feel like I’ve put a lot of effort into the spaces that I can. 

Linzy [00:06:28] Yeah. Like, I’m hearing you definitely have been taking action around it and trying different solutions. 

Caitlin [00:06:33] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:06:34] So I am curious then, Caitlin, like, first of all, what’s been hardest about this transition for you or what is hardest I guess is actually probably more important. What is hardest? 

Caitlin [00:06:43] Yeah, I think just the drop in clients, like so I’m probably closer to 16, 12 to 16 a week and I’ve been closer probably to 8 to 10. 

Linzy [00:06:55] Right now you’re getting 8 to 10. 

Caitlin [00:06:57] Okay, So just holding. 

Linzy [00:07:00] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:07:00] Like reminding myself that like, it’ll be all right and it’ll get better and that I’m building. I think that for me right now has been the hardest to sort of continue to remind myself and not to feel like I made a mistake or, you know. 

Linzy [00:07:15] Yes. Ok, yeah. Cause there’s, there’s two pieces that I’m holding here. And we can, we can decide which way to go first. My first is curiosity about what that emotional experience, what’s happening for you emotionally around this transition and seeing your numbers drop? And my, my second question, of course, is financially, what’s happening with this transition? What road do you want to walk first together? 

Caitlin [00:07:35] I suppose we could do emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:07:38] So, yeah. So tell me some of the, the stories or emotions that I have been coming up with this transition. 

Caitlin [00:07:44] Yeah. Just kind of feeling. I suppose the biggest one is probably just fear. Fear, and then also, yeah, I think that’s probably the main one is, is like just fear around whether this is the right path or whether I’m going to be able to figure out how to do it. It’s a lot of it’s new. You know, I think one of the positives about being on insurance panels is you don’t really have to worry or at least I didn’t have to worry too much about getting clients. I guess that’s how they like, right? That’s the point of the benefit. 

Linzy [00:08:15] Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:08:16] So it’s just new. I am committed to like, you know, I have a niche and like, it feels really right for me and I think that’s all great. But yeah, I think it’s just a fear that like, it’s not going to work or it’s not going to go or I’m not going to have enough. 

Linzy [00:08:31] And you had said earlier to like the fear that you made a mistake, like the thought that you’ve made a mistake. Okay. Okay. So yeah, so the fear that it’s not going to get better, like you’re not going to feel okay. And how is that fear been showing up for you? What has that been looking like? 

Caitlin [00:08:45] Just kind of ruminating about it. Maybe second guessing myself at time. I don’t know, needing to like, I meditate in the morning. So, like, be solid with that or trying to knowing that that’s helpful and so trying to use my, my coping skills that I lean towards. Yeah. So trying those things, it doesn’t always, you know, I still notice just sort of this like level of anxiety about it or no nervousness about it. So just kind of holding space for that. And just as I’m, I work on my own, I don’t have that many people to like knock over like, that many people to tell me, you know, positively reinforce my decisions. And so I do have some colleagues that I occasionally see, but nobody like intimately, every day. I’ve been reaching out a little bit more to some friends like, you know, when this email about this podcast came, I thought, well, maybe that could be helpful to give me a little perspective. So trying to put myself out there a little bit differently. 

Linzy [00:09:46] Yeah, like I’m hearing part of what makes the fear harder is that you’re isolated or at least alone. Yeah, right. It’s like you and the fear, during the work day. 

Caitlin [00:09:56] Right? Right. 

Linzy [00:09:57] Which, which does make it, of course, difficult to take perspective. Like I’m hearing you identifying things that you are missing, which is colleagues to reinforce. Like, yeah, yeah, it’s like that or it was like that for me. Or like, you’re making the right move. Remember we talked about da da da da da. I’m not hearing necessarily that you have like those daily or like easy supports to access to help you stay connected with why you made this decision or help you put it in perspective. 

Caitlin [00:10:22] Yeah, right. Correct. Seek it out online a little bit. Yeah. Okay. You know, have different like Facebook groups that are focused on like therapists and things like that. And like I said, I do have colleagues that are friends of mine, so I have started out a bit. But yeah, day to day it isn’t like face to face available. 

Linzy [00:10:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am curious, your colleagues, have they made similar decisions? 

Caitlin [00:10:46] Yeah. So I do have like actually I’m supposed to meet with them this Friday. Okay. Two women who’ve done very similar things, who are a little further along in their career than me, who I can bounce ideas off of and are wonderful supports. So I do have that and I do seek it out and I am also I have some ideas about getting that in sort of adjoining industries, you know, like people who have like naturopaths or like somebody who might have a very similar sort of client base, I am sort of putting myself out there in that way. 

Linzy [00:11:16] Ok. And when you say putting stuff out there, do you mean like you’re networking with adjoining folks like, yeah, as part of your strategy? Okay. Yes. Gotcha. So I am hearing that you are, you’re managing the fear with your coping mechanisms. You, you do have positive supports who maybe you don’t connect with often, but you are going to be connecting with soon. And they’re not just like positive supports of like go Caitlin but they’re also supportive of like, I’ve been there. This is what it was like for me, this is how long it took, which is awesome. So those are all very positive things that you have in place Now. I’m curious, Caitlin, why did you make this decision to switch from insurance to out-of-pocket? 

Caitlin [00:11:50] I was getting frustrated with the way that the insurance companies were trying to sort of dictate care. I had several situations where it took up a lot of time and energy. I was needing to like, justify certain treatment or amounts of treatment. I also have small children and wanted to really make a little bit more money and felt that like the reimbursement rates that I was getting, were really, really low from certain, certain companies. And so those two things kind of put together. I wanted to just spend a little less time with the kind of bureaucracy of the insurance companies and focus on, you know, my patients and patient care and grow into maybe doing making enough that maybe I could do some other things like, I don’t know, offering a course or, you know, some sort of similar like maybe what you do. I was inspired by you and other women I’ve seen that have, that seems to me like sort of diversify their offerings, or not just like 1 to 1 therapy. Yes. And I just feel like I have a lot to offer. So it felt like a good step towards that. I was like very unclear as to what that might mean, but sort of just allowing that to be there.  

Linzy [00:13:10] Sure. It’s like you’re, you’re opening up space for possibility. Even if you don’t have a clear idea. It’s still part of what I’m hearing. There’s just like reclaiming some bandwidth. 

Caitlin [00:13:17] Yeah. You know, when you’re in the insurance model, you kind of know. I felt sort of like I was in a box right in this amount of clients, and there wasn’t much room to just do there. And at least this. It does feel really scary. But there is also a lot of movement, you know, like there’s a lot of yes, my goal is to be in fear and allow for like the other end of it, like, oh, what if it really works well? I’ll go the other way. Like, Oh gosh.

Linzy [00:13:43] Yeah, yeah. 

Caitlin [00:13:44] There’s more movement on the “Oh, it could really go well” as what you know. 

Linzy [00:13:48] Yes, absolutely. And that’s something and I’m trying to think of, you know, the right analogy for it and it’s not coming to mind. But yeah, before for you were drawing in the air, you know, this, this podcast so folks couldn’t see it but you were drawing in there a box, right? Like for you, the experience of, of the insurance work you were doing particularly felt like being in a box and boxes are limiting, but they’re also safe. 

Caitlin [00:14:08] Yeah, right. Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:14:09] You know that the insurance companies just can keep giving you people and there’s going to be this amount of session fee is where you’re capped. And if you have this many clients, life is going to look like this. You know, small can be safe. What I’m hearing is your experience now of having stepped out of the box is it’s scary and your brain can quickly go to all of the things that might not work and all the ways that the risk might not pay off. But also with that risk, there’s this possibility and, and room for expansiveness that you didn’t have in the box. 

Caitlin [00:14:36] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:14:37] With that. Like when you think about, you having made that move, you don’t strike me as impulsive as a person. That’s not the vibe I’m getting. I don’t know you super well, but, you know, and I’m hearing it took you six months to get off this one panel, right? It’s not like you were like, I’m out, and two weeks later, you know. So this has been quite a process when you think about the transition that you’ve made, like what did it take for you to make that decision? What qualities or what did it take inside of you for you to, to take that leap and step out of that safety you had? 

Caitlin [00:15:06] Yeah, I have come. I’ve realized that I’ve come to all these steps in my career where I knew I needed to shift. I would wait and have to keep reminding myself that it’s never going to feel comfortable. I think I’ll wait a little bit and want it to be comfortable until I was finally ready. And then something happens and I would, I would just do it right? Where I got a call from my professor, the first job I got that was like in private practice when I had no idea what I was doing a long time ago. It was like this opportunity and my daughter was literally two weeks old, my first daughter too.  

Linzy [00:15:50] Oh gosh. 

Caitlin [00:15:50] So I, I was mess. 

Linzy [00:15:51] Oh, yeah, Oh yeah. 

Caitlin [00:15:53] Sleeping And yes, even in that sleep-deprived state, knew I had to do it because like, it was such an opportunity. Right. But so uncomfortable. So I remember that and I just, I just kept remembering like, okay, I know I need to do this right. It’s like the next step and it’s not going to be comfortable. 

Linzy [00:16:12] Right? And what did it take for you to make that uncomfortable step or what allowed you to take that step maybe? 

Caitlin [00:16:18] One thing that happened, my mom died. And part of that, you know, it’s like the worst thing I could ever imagine happening in my life. 

Linzy [00:16:18] Absolutely yeah. 

Caitlin [00:16:18] Besides something happening to my children. 

Linzy [00:16:27] Yes. My brain also goes there immediately. Yes. 

Caitlin [00:16:29] Right. I think one of the things about that is it, it obviously gives you perspective on things in this like insane way. And so after that happened, I obviously couldn’t do it right then. Like that was like right in the middle, right before COVID and then COVID. So all of that, I was just like processing, processing, like recalibrating, trying to figure out what I was doing. And then like once I sort of feel like I came up for air. So then my daughter also was a little bit older. It wasn’t so intense. I like came up for air. And then I was like, okay, like this is never going to feel comfortable. You know, I had this perspective with my mom passing away and like, sort of had this idea of like, you got to just go for it. Like not allowing the fear to kind of drive me. Even though it still comes back. You know, I kind of like, I don’t know, talk it down or something. But I do think that, that perspective of like you only get one shot at life. And at least for me, I lead kind of heart centered, you know, even if it’s a theory or I’m not sure about it. I’m not sure what it’s going to look like, but I am sure that, like, I have to move. So, yes, I’m willing to, if something’s not working, obviously I’m willing to like then shift. So I think that perspective also, I think I used to be really concerned, much more concerned like everything being like sort of perfect. And now I’m totally okay with things being like, good enough. 

Linzy [00:18:07] Yes. Okay. Okay. So I’m curious, like telling that story, what’s happening in your body? Like what emotions go with that story for you. 

Caitlin [00:18:13] Of me, like being able to shift? 

Linzy [00:18:15] Yeah. 

Caitlin [00:18:16] I do notice more energy. And, like, I do notice I wouldn’t say excitement, but, like, there is more movement or like, you’re. 

Linzy [00:18:24] Animated. 

Caitlin [00:18:25] Yeah, more flow, like. Yeah. So I guess just more energy, a higher, maybe more positive, more like a hopeful, things like that. Yes. 

Linzy [00:18:34] Yeah. Yeah. And there’s two phrases that came to mind for me. One is something that I used to say a lot myself. I feel like when I was a teenager, I don’t know if I made it up. I probably didn’t. But it was. Life is for the living. 

Caitlin [00:18:47] Sure. 

Linzy [00:18:48] Right. Like, I think when we have perfectionistic tendencies or like, you know, when we have been in a safe space and we have to think about taking a step or taking a risk, it’s like it feels scary, but it’s like, isn’t that what life is about? Like, aren’t we supposed to be living life and, you know, talking about your mom and losing your mom, like I know for me, when I have experiences with mortality close to me, like my mind always goes to that. Like, it’s always that chance to, like, reassess your life and like, am I living the life I want? Like if that was my funeral in two weeks, would I be like, Yep, people are going to have great things to say because I’m really living my true, authentic life, whatever that means, right? So that comes to mind. But the second thing that I think of is a phrase that was an email subject line from a feminist marketer that I get emails from. Kelly Diels to give credit where credit is due, which is “Fear is rocket fuel”. 

Linzy [00:19:34] Right. And it’s making me think about your fear right now. And it’s like when we take risks and we are making big moves. Fear is part of the picture. But I do wonder how you could be framing fear or how you can be using this fear to get you where you want to go because you’ve stepped out of this box. What I’m hearing is you are 8 to 10 a week, right? You’re not you don’t have 2 clients a week. 

Caitlin [00:19:57] No, right. 

Linzy [00:19:58] You’ve retained 8 to 10 a week out of the 12 to 16. So you’re kind of like half to like three-quarters of where you were before. Maybe more than half, actually. You’re at more than a half to three-quarters of where you were before. But there’s still this gap of like where you actually want to be, which is like, which is a good question. Where do you want to be? What is the amount of sessions you’re looking for per week at this out-of-pocket rate? 

Caitlin [00:20:19] I feel really good at like 16. 

Linzy [00:20:22] Okay, So 16 is your sweet spot. 

Caitlin [00:20:24] Yeah, I would do like 16 to 18 would feel good. I tend to sort of flow with the natural dip down in summer. So in the summer I usually see closer to 12 and that’s fine. 

Linzy [00:20:37] Yeah, it is nice to be able to flow with the seasons. 

Caitlin [00:20:39] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:20:39] Yeah, yeah. And who wants to work in the summer when you could be at the park? Okay, So, so closer to 12 in summer. So to dig into the numbers side of this, Caitlin, because I’d love to get grounded in what numbers we’re actually talking about here. Because that also helps us understand the risk. What was your fee when you were on insurance? Like, how much were you bringing in a week with the 12 to 16 clients that you used to see on insurance? 

Caitlin [00:21:04] So it was like 120 or so. 

Linzy [00:21:07] 120. Okay. 

Caitlin [00:21:08] It’s kind of like the average. 

Linzy [00:21:09] So 120, and could we say your average was like 14 sessions a week between that 12 to 16? Is that accurate? Okay. So times 14 times 4.33. This is rough math. We know there’s the summer dips and everything, so it’s kind of like 7200 a month of revenue. Does that sound about right for your insurance practice? 

Caitlin [00:21:29] Yeah. Give or take. 

Linzy [00:21:30] Does that seem a little high or low? 

Caitlin [00:21:31] It seems a little high.  

Linzy [00:21:33] A little high? Okay. Okay. So maybe 7000 a month? 

Caitlin [00:21:35] Yeah. Yeah, maybe. 

Linzy [00:21:37] Let’s say 7000 a month. So tell me, what is your out-of-pocket rate? 

Caitlin [00:21:40] 150. 

Linzy [00:21:42] 150? Okay. 

Caitlin [00:21:42] Little bit of a range, but that’s the average. 

Linzy [00:21:44] Average is 150. Okay, So 150 then just to get a sense of where we are compared to where you were right now, you’re doing 150 and you’re seeing like nine clients a week? 

Caitlin [00:21:54] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:21:54] Does that sound about right? 8 to 10, we’ll say nine? 

Caitlin [00:21:57] Yeah. 9 

Linzy [00:22:00] So right now you’re at like 5800 a month. So there’s like a 1200-dollar shortfall. How many clients would it take you at 150 an hour to make up that gap? It’s a 1200-dollar gap. Can you do the math on that for me? Do you have a calculator? 

Caitlin [00:22:15] So eight. 

Linzy [00:22:17] So that’s eight sessions a month. So. How many clients would that be for you? If it’s eight sessions a month. 

Caitlin [00:22:23] Maybe four. 

Linzy [00:22:24] Okay. So four clients who are coming twice a month each, bi-weekly clients. 

Caitlin [00:22:28] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:22:29] Okay. Okay. So four clients. So if you notice that the gap we’re talking about is finding four more clients who come bi-weekly or I will enter the possibility that it could also be two weekly clients. 

Caitlin [00:22:43] Right, sure. 

Linzy [00:22:44] If you can target those folks who are like, oh, 150 an hour, pfff! My fee used to be 175 and my clients, like, couldn’t remember my fee, like it was like so unimportant to them. They were like, What is your fee? Well, 250, 100. Like it, yeah. So it could also be two weekly clients. What do you notice in your body thinking about having to get, like, either those four biweekly clients or like two more weekly clients would, would fill that gap, getting you back up to where you used to be? 

Caitlin [00:23:11] Yeah, it doesn’t seem like that. Like that big of a jump or that hard.

Linzy [00:23:16] Right. I was gonna say, like, how hard? How hard is that or how scary is that to find two or four more clients? Okay. 

Caitlin [00:23:24] Yeah. Doesn’t feel that hard.  

Linzy [00:23:27] Okay. So that’s helpful information to notice, right? Like the part of you, that’s been in fear. Is that part able to take in information that, what we’re talking about right now, just to get you where you were? I know it’s not where you ultimately want to be. But to get you back up to the status quo, we’re talking about 2 to 4 clients. Can the fear part of you, like take in that information? 

Caitlin [00:23:44] Yeah. That feels comforting or attainable. 

Linzy [00:23:47] Yeah. Okay. Comforting and attainable. Those are nice words. 

Caitlin [00:23:50] Yeah. Yeah, 

Linzy [00:23:52] Those are very doable words. In terms of where you will be like, did you pick this number based on kind of your family’s financial need? Or like, do you know where this number is going to get you once you do fill up to 16 again? 

Caitlin [00:24:03] Yeah, I worked all that out when I did your class. I also was taking into account, I did quite a bit of research on like what everybody around here, I live in the Midwest, was charging and so trying to keep it within. And then also what I was charging my clients to be able to scale up. So I did sort of take all of that into account. 

Linzy [00:24:26] Okay. Yeah. When you, when you said this, which which I love to hear, I love that there was math involved. That always makes me happy. So it’s a good grounded decision. So what I’m seeing here is like when you get up to 16 clients a month and I’m using rounded numbers here, just for simplicity. We’d be talking about like $10,000 a month revenue. Right?

Caitlin [00:24:43] That was like my, for some reasons I like that number and it just feels yeah, it felt like, okay, that’s different and like a good goal and like, yes, something to reach for and like after taxes still feels like, even though this job can be really challenging like that still is like solid paycheck. 

Linzy [00:25:02] Yes. Yes. It’s a paycheck that you’re like this, this compensates.

Caitlin [00:25:06] Okay. Yeah. But you know, I would yeah. My next goal would be like 20 grand more or something like that. So kind of leading up, feels like an attainable goal for now. That, that also makes me feel. One of my challenges lately had had been like after taxes, feeling like this job is really it can be really challenging. And although I absolutely love it and it is definitely for me, I also want to feel like appropriately compensated. And I wasn’t feeling that way like, yes, I have to pay for all of my own stuff because I’m private, you know. So this can kind of eek away at like your sense of, is this worth it? 

Linzy [00:25:41] Absolutely. Yeah. And I do think, too, there is something about being well compensated for our work that also has the reverse effect. Like let’s you hold yourself higher, like have more kind of esteem of like I’m a professional. I get paid like a professional. I do work like a professional. I change lives. Like I, there’s that positive effect as well of giving yourself the appropriate raise. 

Caitlin [00:26:03] It’s like it’s not light-hearted work, right? It’s not like, you know, like. No. 

Linzy [00:26:08] Yes. No, I always thought that with this kind of work, there could be a lot of laughter. But it was in contrast to, like, all this darkness that’s also in the room with us, you know, depending on the work that you’re doing. So. Okay. So what I’m hearing then, is for you to get up to that 7000, we’re looking at 2 to 4 clients. And then for you to get up to that ten, you know, 10,000 revenue and we’re talking revenue here, not paycheck for folks listening. That 10,000 revenue, we would be looking at going up like some around six, 6 to 8 clients. That’s like that’s your level up that’s a level up amount that you’ve chosen. 

Caitlin [00:26:41] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:26:41] Right. And so when you think about that, that like that next step after this 2 to 4. 2 to 4 gets you back to baseline. The next step after that is a level-up step. How can you think about that in a way that will be motivating? Like I’m thinking of this like “fear as jet fuel” metaphor, which I don’t know if it’s like totally if that connects for you, that idea, but it’s like, how, how can we use this energy as interpret it positively or make it positive rather than let that fear spiral into all the negative, you’re going to live in a box kind of thoughts. 

Caitlin [00:27:12] Right? I guess I feel a little more ease around it when I give myself a little bit of grace and, like appropriate expectation in terms of time. And just how much time it might take. So, you know, even thinking like, can I give myself a year? Like to make all that happen and not get that worried in the second month that it isn’t happening? 

Linzy [00:27:33] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:27:35] That gives me a little bit of ease. And I mean, honestly, because of your course, I have quite a bit in savings and my tax situation for this year is much more… Like it’s set, you know, in my account. And then I have all my little like accounts for profit first and all that stuff. 

Linzy [00:27:54] Hmmm, beautiful. 

Caitlin [00:27:55] I just looked at it yesterday. And so even though like this week in particular, I have quite, quite a few less clients that I’m used to, you know, it’s like I still have all that money that I have saved. And I do have like, the backup systems. 

Linzy [00:28:09] Yes, right. 

Caitlin [00:28:10] And like, I like it that, you know, even if I do have a dip in revenue, like because of the calculators and the profit first stuff, like I would be appropriately still saving the amount of taxes. It’s not, you know, it can shift. And I, I know in my head like no, no, like I know how much to save now because I did all that backup work. 

Linzy [00:28:32] Yeah. You’ve done all that foundational work. 

Caitlin [00:28:34] Right. And so that kind of, I keep trying to remember that as well. And like, you know, that is helpful to use as, as fuel. And I, you know, just to keep sort of reassuring and reminding myself that is helpful. So yeah, so when I give myself more time frame and try to shift out of that, like, oh, this has to be working right now. Yes. 

Linzy [00:28:56] Yes, yeah. And this is like what I like to call big-picture thinking, right? Like you have, you have actually built the systems. You’ve done the work, that you actually do have stability in your practice, right? Like you have actually built out those foundations. So taxes are still there. Money is still there to get paid, like you’re still being well compensated even while making shifts. Right. You’re not writing this kind of like like knuckle biter, knuckle biter? That’s not the right, white knuckle. Don’t bite your knuckles! Nail biter, kind of like roller coaster situation, right? So you have given yourself that stability. And with stability can come expansiveness, right? Because you put those roots in. 

Caitlin [00:29:32] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:29:32] You know, to to use a tree metaphor, it’s like you’ve put roots in. You have that solidity. So now you actually have the foundation to reach and you’re reaching. Right. And I’m hearing that sometimes reaching is scary. Yeah, but I’m curious like, what else is reaching besides scary for you? 

Caitlin [00:29:49] I guess like growth and possibility and, you know, moving into the next level of my career and feeling grounded and solid in that. And competent, I guess that is one positive, and I mean this in the most humble way, but I work really hard at being a good therapist. And, you know, work really hard at staying in a good space myself in terms of my health and my mental health. And so I know that to be true as well. And so that’s also part of my foundation. So I’m I know that I’m good at my job and I’m certainly always working on, you know, things. But I do know that, like, I’m committed to it and I, I take it really seriously and, you know, so that’s not going to change. 

Linzy [00:30:34] Yes. 

Caitlin [00:30:34] Yeah. That like knowing my worth and my value is also in again, like, I don’t, I’m not like tooting my own horn, but just like I put a lot of work in and like, I can, you know, and I know that. 

Linzy [00:30:48] Mm hmm. Yes, I think you can toot your own horn, just in here. With job interviews, my dad always used to be like, “this is your chance to toot your own horn” and get to like and I’m to say the same thing in this conversation. And like, as you’re thinking about investing in yourself, right? Like, you are allowed to be connected with what you’ve accomplished and your competency and your commitment to being really good at what you do. I think that’s actually extremely important for us to be connected with and to own it. Because that makes this a very logical move that you’ve made. Yeah, in fact, I would say this is actually, you probably could have set your fee higher. You haven’t, you’re not doing something that doesn’t completely make sense actually, within the context of all the work you’ve done in your career and everything you’ve established. 

Caitlin [00:31:28] Right? Right. Yeah, I’ve thought of that too. 

Linzy [00:31:31] So that’s later. That’s later. So Caitlin, coming towards the end of our conversation, what are you taking away from our conversation today? 

Caitlin [00:31:40] I think it’s helpful to just kind of ground myself in, you know, you’re always good at like, coming back to like, the numbers and like, just kind of be really grounded in like, well, you know, it’s 2 clients or 4 clients. 

Linzy [00:31:51]  Yeah, like, what are we actually talking about? 

Caitlin [00:31:53] You know, like, not that crazy. So that’s like really helpful because although I’m fine with numbers, it’s not necessarily always where I go, you know. I don’t know. It’s just like, well, what’s actually the core of it. Right? Yes. Help me get better at that or I’m not scared of it in any way. So that’s good to remember. And then also, I like that idea of fear, just how you orient towards the fear. I think the fear is really natural. And coming from like a mindfulness space, like, can I just walk a minute? Can I sit with it and can it be like the fuel? I’m not going to let it spiral me into like, I can’t do this or I’m not worth it or all that. Well, you know, the negative self-talk that I think all of us can have challenges with at times, both of those things. So using the fear as like maybe the fuel and also like just you kind of providing space or reiterating that like the time frame makes sense or like all the decisions I’ve made, you know, at least make sense to you. 

Linzy [00:32:54] Absolutely. 

Caitlin [00:32:54] And hearing that back is helpful too. 

Linzy [00:32:57] Yeah. And something that I did really notice too, as well. First of all, when you reconnected with why you made this decision, your body language really changed. 

Caitlin [00:33:04] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:33:04] You went from kind of this more like tight to like expressive arms moving, talking with your hands. So that’s one thing that I noticed. And then the second thing that I noticed is when you zoomed out your timeline, when you started talking about a year rather than now, there was also this calm that came over you. 

Caitlin [00:33:22] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:33:23] And I think that that’s really important. And maybe the timeline doesn’t have to be a year. Maybe it’s six months, maybe it’s four months, maybe it’s seven, right? But that I also noticed like this, like grounding that happened when you let yourself zoom out and didn’t have to make it something that happens immediately. Because what I’m hearing from you, at least as far as I understand, financially it doesn’t have to happen right away. It’s not as though your family’s in financial crisis and you’re trying to replace your income and your partner’s income and big medical bills. Like, you know, there are times when it really is like, “oh shit, like, right now I need to, like, make $20,000 appear”. That’s not your situation at this moment, which means you do have that space to like make those connections with colleagues, network. Find the ways to like, really find your people. And what you’re going to build over the next year will last for decades. 

Caitlin [00:34:09] Yeah, right. 

Linzy [00:34:10] Even if it doesn’t happen tomorrow, you’re building something that is, has longevity. 

Caitlin [00:34:15] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:34:15] As you figure each thing out. 

Caitlin [00:34:16] Right? Exactly. 

Linzy [00:34:18] So, Caitlin, what is your next step coming out of our conversation today? 

Caitlin [00:34:22] I think I’m going to try to just keep all of those things in mind and remember the numbers and just keep working on my networking and keep working on all the things I have kind of in play. I’m doing little social media stuff, which is not my strong suit. 

Linzy [00:34:42] Same here. Same here. 

Caitlin [00:34:43] Now, you know, I’m just kind of trying to remember my, my confidence and, and that coming from me and not just like the amount of clients that I have right now. Wonderful. 

Linzy [00:34:55] Thank you for coming on the podcast today. 

Caitlin [00:34:56] Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate your help and just the opportunity. 

Linzy [00:35:13] In the conversation with Caitlin, the fear obviously was a big part of it at the beginning and something that I didn’t say during the recording, but I did say to Caitlin afterwards as we chatted and finished up our time together is that it is scary, like it is scary to do these things. It is scary to take a risk on yourself. It is scary to step out of something that is safe and known into something that is unknown. As we talked about that metaphor of stepping outside of the box, you know, the box, you know, in some, for some folks, that box is being uninsurance or it’s working in a certain place or even seeing a certain type of client. That is something that we know and it’s something that at a certain point becomes consistent and reliable. But when we outgrow those boxes and when for whatever reason, we decide to step outside of it, whether that’s financial, whether it’s emotional, whether it’s we need a change that is scary. Right? And so I don’t think the fear goes away. And I think the fear is, is healthy. And obviously the fears are our nervous system, you know, trying to keep us safe. But it’s really learning how to manage and be with that fear that makes all the difference. We don’t want to make decisions driven out of fear. That’s not wise. And so it’s you know, as we’re talking with Caitlin, how can you shift that experience of fear to something else? Right? If if fear is fuel, then fear can also become excitement. It can be motivation. And excitement and motivation can move us into making moves that will really make a difference. And in Caitlin’s case, moves like reaching out to people, networking, putting herself out there that will help her right clients find her. Those moves are what’s going to make all the difference. And we can use that energy to make those strategic moves. Once we start moving out of kind of the, the scary stories that fear wants to tell us and just realize like, yeah, I’m energized. I’m like doing something here and I’m going to make the moves I need to make to make this decision a good one and to make it pay off. So I’m very excited for Caitlin and what’s coming in her future. Having taken this step in her practice. 

Linzy [00:37:15] You can follow me on Instagram @moneynutsandbolts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please jump over to Apple Podcasts. You’re also welcome to jump over to Google, if, like me, you were not an Apple user or our Facebook page to leave a review of your experience with the podcast, what you like about it, you can share about what your favorite episode or conversation was. It’s a great way for other therapists who would benefit from these conversations to find us. Thanks for listening today.