Meet Jenn Fredette

Jenn [00:00:03] And that is the gift that therapists have, that marketers in general and copywriters in general really have to work to hone, is we know what it’s like to see another person. And what scares us, I think, is often in seeing the other we are also seen. 

Linzy [00:00:28] Welcome to the Money Skills for Therapists podcast where we answer this question “How can therapists and health practitioners go from money shame and confusion to feeling calm and confident about their finances and get money really working for them in both their private practice and their lives?”. I’m your host, Linzy Bonham therapist turned money coach and creator of the course Money Skills for Therapists. 

Linzy [00:00:50] Hello and welcome back to the podcast. So today’s guest is a return guest, Jenn Fredette. But before I get into introducing her and telling you about what we’re going to dive into today, I wanted to share a review of this love for the podcast on Apple Podcasts. The review says “Crucial for Money Blocks. I love this podcast and look forward to listening every week! I’m learning how to work smarter, not harder, and addressing my money blocks. Linzy Bonham does a great job helping listeners really look at deeper layers of innate worthiness and all the parts that come up around this stuff”. Thank you so much, dh145 for leaving this review. I so appreciate these reviews. It’s nice to get the feedback and it’s also so helpful, as I always say at the end of the podcast, for other therapists to find us, other therapists and practitioners. Apple Podcast reviews is a great way for people to know if a podcast is for them or not. So today’s guest, as I mentioned, is Jenn Fredette, she’s a returning guest. Jenn is, she’s actually a Money Skills for Therapist Grad going back to my very first beta cohort that I did in 2018. So I’ve known Jenn a long time and she helps therapists with their marketing. She helps therapists market with depth and authenticity. And today in our conversation we get into talking about why marketing can be so hard for therapists. This idea of being under-resourced and what that means for us as people and therapists and how that shows up in our marketing. We talk a little bit about how we end up kind of telling on ourselves in our marketing and showing sometimes more than we intend to about the things that we’re struggling with through the way that we’re marketing. And also how to tell if you are under-resourced in your marketing and what to do if you discover that you are not having the resources that you need to do the marketing that you want to do to really attune and call in your people. As always, the conversation with Jenn today is depthful and takes lots of fun twists and turns and is always about so much more than marketing, which as the Apple Podcast review that I read just said, you know, there’s always the deeper layers that I love exploring around money and Jenn loves exploring marketing, and you’re going to get a lot of that today. Here’s my conversation with Jenn Fredette. 

Linzy [00:03:23] So Jenn, welcome back to the podcast. 

Jenn [00:03:25] Thanks for having me, Linzy. I really appreciate it. 

Linzy [00:03:28] It’s nice to have you here again. And I have told you this before, but your last episode that we did about like doing your inner work in order to work on your money stuff is our top listened episode ever. 

Jenn [00:03:42] Well, hello, repeat listeners who come back for a second round. It’s so fun. I joked with you before we started recording was like, I didn’t even remember what I talked about. So thank you for reminding me.

Linzy [00:03:54] That’s what it was. That’s what it was. Yes. And it makes sense to me because I think that I fancy myself a bit of a depth seeker and like, you know, the meaning stuff. And so I think folks who listen, you know, also probably at the very least have a tolerance for that. But I would say based on the listing statistics, they have an appetite for that because we know that there’s always stuff, stuff under the stuff. That also makes life like, and our work, rich and meaningful but can be ignored in the business world related to therapy. 

Jenn [00:04:24] Yeah. Makes me so sad. So I might be jumping ahead a little bit, Linzy, but I feel like that’s what actually makes therapists better than like the average person. So I like depth. I’m glad you like depth. And everybody who’s listening, it sounds like you also like depth. So you’re my kind of people. 

Linzy [00:04:45] In the right place. So, Jenn, you teach marketing for therapists, which is an area of my own kind of like business and work that’s never been my favorite. So I love that you love it. I’m always grateful that there’s people who love marketing. 

Jenn [00:05:00] Yeah. 

Linzy [00:05:01] Thank you for existing. First of all, that’s my first piece. So I’m curious, like just to get us, you know, kind of started wading into the topic. Why do you think marketing can be so challenging for therapists? 

Jenn [00:05:16] That’s a really good question, Linzy. And I just realized, like, oh, maybe we should start a whole separate podcast where we just talk about that every single week, oh, my gosh, please, please, let’s stop. 

Linzy [00:05:29] As long as we get to talk about money, too, I will be there. 

Jenn [00:05:31] I think actually marketing and money go hand in hand. I had a call with somebody who’s joining a team at distilled earlier today and she’s like, Can you explain to me, like, what is actually a sales funnel? I was like, Yeah, it’s the process of somebody going from not knowing you to being willing to invest resources in you, right? Whether it’s time, money or I think we don’t always talk about this, but like the vulnerability of somebody coming on as client or somebody coming on as a student, whether it’s in Money Nuts and Bolts or in your fabulous new program. Or for me, in my marketing programs, it’s a vulnerable thing and you’ve got to make sure you can trust somebody. So to come back to why is it so hard for therapists? I think there’s like a lot of different threads to it, but it really comes down to people aren’t well-resourced, and I think that shows up in our marketing if we’re not getting our needs met. And really, I would say also getting some of our wants met too. Like this isn’t just about trying to survive in the world, but to enjoy living. To enjoy being alive.  

Linzy [00:06:42] Yeah. Like, I’m curious if you could. You could unpack that a little bit, Jenn, to use a very therapist term. When you say under-resourced, tell me more about what you mean by that. 

Jenn [00:06:50] Here’s a great example. In my own life, I am currently therapy-less because my therapist went to Thailand with her daughter, which I kind of love. That’s nice, but they’re gone for like three weeks, right? What am I going to do? I normally have 3 hours of therapy every week. 

Linzy [00:07:07] Do you? 

Jenn [00:07:10] I do. 

Linzy [00:07:10] So it’s a psychoanalysis of you? 

Jenn [00:07:12] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, only one hour of individual and 2 hours of group. Yeah. So I guess technically, it’s 2 hours and 50 minutes, but same difference. 

Linzy [00:07:23] Thank you for clarifying, because three sounded like a lot, but 2 hours and 50 minutes is very typical. 

Jenn [00:07:29] Yes, obviously so. So, yeah, I’m like a little rudderless without my therapist. And I was thinking as I was talking to again, another student earlier this week about how my therapist, who does like almost no marketing, just called me the fuck out when I first started to experience some success in my private practice. You and I had worked together. You taught me how to, like, keep my bookkeeping in order until I could make enough money that I could outsource that to somebody else, which is still one of my favorite business expenses. And I was doing really well. I had brought in a lot of people. I’m pretty good at marketing, and I was bringing in a lot of people who traumatized me, like not on purpose, but they weren’t. They weren’t bad clients, but they hit all of my stuff, but it was making a lot of money and I was like, Surely I’m great. Like, I have a full caseload now, right? Everything is amazing. And she looked at me. She said, You’re not well-resourced. You’re not doing great. I was like, I don’t know what the fuck that means. It’s like therapy speak. What are you talking about? Like, I have money in my savings account. And she said, Jenn, you so often reduce being well-resourced to money. And money is a symbol of being able to be resource. But it’s not the whole of it. 

Linzy [00:08:50] Mm hmm. 

Jenn [00:08:51] Can we talk more about what’s actually getting played out and where you’re actually burning yourself out? You’re stretching yourself in unhealthy ways because you’re not well-resourced in these other areas. And so I know that’s how she talked me into starting process group. I was like, Fine, okay, you think the focus group would be really helpful? And I do want to be well-resourced. I don’t know what it means. I’ll go to this group even though I think it’s going to be really hard. 

Linzy [00:09:15] Yes. 

Jenn [00:09:15] And it was really hard and also has been really transformative for me. So to stretch it out a little bit more, although I had a full caseload, right, like I had money in the bank, I have pretty good policies that things were working really well. I was not getting my relational needs met in my practice and frankly in the rest of my life. But practice was a place where it got amplified. And I also, in a lot of ways wasn’t getting my attachment needs met. Right. And so not only was I being triggered by clients. And again, truly, truly, like not the clients fault. It was, in some ways, my own marketing got in my way that I just brought in a lot of people. I was like this great. Like they’re willing to pay my fee, therefore they’re a good fit for me and they really weren’t. And so it’s being triggered there. And then it was harder to be like, okay, but I got a- I got to move things around because this isn’t a full life, right? Like that I am stretching myself logistically in terms of scheduling time. I feel kind of guilty that I’m charging so much and so let me do extra for them. Like let me keep over-delivering. Which is often marketing advice people get in general, like over-deliver, surprise them.

Linzy [00:10:38] Surprise and delight. Yes. Yes. 

Jenn [00:10:42] Which is like some patriarchal bullshit of just trying to get people to do more than what is actually on offer. 

Linzy [00:10:50] Right. Right. More than they even sold to that person. 

Jenn [00:10:53] Yes. Yes. Which this is a side show. But in another conversation with a client recently – not a therapy client, a student – and they were like, Yeah, when I first heard about you, I thought you were a scam. I was like, Seriously? Like, I- nobody in my personal life would say I’m a scam. Like, that’s not really how I come across is like, Yeah, you were offering so much. It just did not seem like be realistic. Like nobody could offer that much. And he was like, And Jenn you actually offer more now and like, I don’t- but at least I know you now and I know it’s not fake, which was comforting, but yes, coming back to well-resourced. So I was in a place where I actually had the resources that most people starting their private practice journey want. They had the fancy full caseload. I had a really nice website. I had all of these things, but it was empty because I wasn’t able to actually fill what I needed, which also meant I couldn’t show up for my clients in the ways I think that they deserve. Wasn’t doing that work. I wasn’t doing harmful work, but I wasn’t able to attend with the depth that I want to be able to. For any client who sits across from me, I see consistently this part show up in marketing, where people are so focused on getting their logistical needs met that they don’t pay attention to the attachment or the relational piece. 

Linzy [00:12:17] Right. Yeah. And by logistical needs, do you mean like, full caseload, like that kind of stuff? Like the things that are success on paper. Yes. Let’s say like full bank account. Good paycheck. Full caseload. You are successful. Congratulations. You have arrived. 

Jenn [00:12:34] Yes. And especially since COVID. I think the other thing that has happened with some of these metrics is somehow branding like so you have the clients filling up your rosters maybe or you have money in the bank account maybe, but also you have like a fancy Internet presence where people look at you and like Linzy really has it together. Have you seen her website? Oh my gosh. I just love how she did her website. Like, I’ve got to have a really good website too. I’m always seeing in these Facebook groups like, Don’t be too critical of my website, I know it’s not good enough. Like I go on their website and it’s fine. Like the copy could be stronger from a marketing perspective, but branding wise it’s fine. But there is sort of a sense of you got to keep up with the Joneses in your branding, like your logistical business stuff has to be on point. Does it make sense? 

Linzy [00:13:32] You were speaking to me. I was just thinking how I have a couple colleagues who I love, you know, like some of my biz besties who’ve done major website overhauls, like $20,000 projects. And like, it’s been really interesting for me to see them do that and be like, That’s really pretty and that’s really nice and I don’t want that. Like it’s just not worth it. But yeah, but it is this real appearance of success, right? And like, polish. 

Jenn [00:13:57] Yes. And it’s interesting because I felt this conversation a couple times with a mutual friend of ours, Tiffany, and I’m like, but I want my sales pages to be beautiful. Like, I might not be making enough money on the sales page yet, but I know it will be beautiful. I will not do it myself. And what I have learned over the past few years, is part of it isn’t about keeping up with the Joneses, although there’s a piece of that and some even wanting to trick the viewer. But because I want copy and design to be friends and I want to understand because I’m never going to be a designer, but I’m like, I want to understand how to write more for a designer. So it looks the way I want it to. Like, I want people to have a full body experience. And I don’t know that that’s often how people think about websites. It’s sort of like, Let’s make sure it looks good. And I’m like, I want to feel like a Dave Matthews concert. After you’ve had like a really long week of clients that were really hard, I want it to feel-. 

Linzy [00:14:59] That’s very specific. 

Jenn [00:15:00] Yeah, I mean, that’s my in Distilled that was the direction I gave my designers like Dave Matthews concert, but they’ve been stuck inside for a really long time. I was like, Cool, Got it. Go. I’ll send you after, like, your headshot on it, too, looks like a poster, like a like a touring musician poster. 

Linzy [00:15:17] My headshot. 

Jenn [00:15:18] Your headshot. 

Linzy [00:15:19] I have not seen this. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Send it to me after. It sounds glorious and artistic. Knowing you, though, Jenn, like to come back to this piece about being resourced, like I- you and I had a WhatsApp exchange before and we have been talking on WhatsApp recently and you had described kind of like some things that you’re thinking up and some cool stuff that we’re going to be doing together. And I just reply to you like my observation is like you are a creative being like to your core. So to me that actually, when we talk about being resourced and like needs, that to me actually speaks very much to like you and a need that you have to like have this artistic harmony happening in what you create. So that makes a lot of sense that that is a need that the for you or for you that is a need, where for other folks that might not be a need. 

Jenn [00:16:03] Yes I am with you and even bringing it back to like everybody who’s still listening, sometimes when we’re talking about what it means to be well-resourced, therapists have a way that we can see when somebody is not well-resourced and they’re like acting stuff out, then like this feels like a really telling on myself that I’ve been very obsessed with all of this Taylor Swift drama that is going on. Like there’s something in the psychic material that I’m like, There’s something about this that hooks me. You’re looking at me like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. 

Linzy [00:16:35] I don’t know. No, I feel like I’m very much in, like, the middle-aged mom camp of life now. 

Jenn [00:16:41] That is okay. 

Linzy [00:16:42] Isn’t she young? Taylor Swift. That’s the old person part of me responding. But I do know that you’re a Taylor Swift fan. 

Jenn [00:16:48] And like new Taylor Swift fan. So long story short, Taylor Swift broke up with her longtime boyfriend. My fanfiction is he broke up with her and she’s been, like, spiraling out of control ever since she broke up. And she acted as if, like, I’m fine. Like I broke up with him. Like, that was all of the PR statements. Right? And I from day one told my husband was like, I’m pretty sure Joe broke up with her. He’s like, I have no idea who you’re talking about. He was like, Jenn, I do not care. I’m like, She is posturing. She’s over it. Like she’s really trying to show the town the breakup. He’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, I wouldn’t be surprised if she cheated. She has so many songs about her cheating. Like, I think that might have been what happened in, like, the way it’s just played out. I’m like, I was right. I read it correctly and I feel like that feels like a therapist thing. And it doesn’t matter if it’s I don’t know, like your sister-in-law or your best friend’s cousin’s brother or whatever. Like, there’s still this sense of like, Ooh, I think I see. That’s what’s going on. And what I have loved about marketing is it feels to me I can look at somebody’s marketing and be like, I think I know something about you that you did not intend to tell me. What I often see in therapist marketing is how scared they are to be seen. And how scared they are that they’re not actually – not just them as people, but like us as a profession – is worth the time, energy, money invested in it. But there’s a kind of reduction of like, let’s play small because therapy’s you know, it’s not really that big of a deal. And since COVID, when therapy has become more like a trending topic, I see a lot more inflation of like, look at me like I’m an amazing therapist or therapy influencer or whoever it might be. I’m a big deal. And then they’re the people who get stuck in the middle of that, don’t want to play small, but they’re wary of feeling inflated, of being inflated, actually. Right. Like to be dangerous. Yeah. What are you thinking? 

Linzy [00:19:01] I was thinking about, like, the under-resourced piece and. Yeah. So can you tell me, like, bring. Bring me back around. Tell me how this connects with being under-resourced. 

Jenn [00:19:11] So part of what we’ve already talked about is, like, logistically, people are under-resourced. They might be desperate, need to pay their bills. We’ve also talked to them about the relational piece of just like, how do people see me that I might feel ashamed, I might feel all these other pieces, but this other part feels like the attachment is right of what happens when you haven’t had attunement, not just in family of origin, but in your marketing, in your business building, where somebody is able to support you and like attention to like where you are and say, okay, like here’s part of the way you can navigate it this way. Here’s some pitfalls to watch out for. And to do actually what you just did a few minutes ago with me is like, This is something I know about you, Jenn, you’re a deeply creative person. Of course. That makes sense. That design copy is going to be a place where you want to spend more of your energy. And let’s make- not that you’re my coach, but like, a good coach, a good consultant will be like, okay, let’s make sure that we make time, space, energy for you to invest in that, because there’s plenty of things that I don’t invest in. So I can have a beautiful sales pitch because that really matters to me, right? That’s the piece that’s often missing in marketing is people go to a place of like, I have to do all of the things in order to succeed or I’m going to do nothing because it’s all very scary to me. And there’s not guidance of, okay, let me attend to who you are. And I think this mixture of things would work for you. Have you thought about this? Here are some of the pitfalls with this. But like, here’s the ways that you can continue to navigate so it makes sense. 

Linzy [00:20:54] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, I guess my question would be what happens or what do you see happen in therapist marketing when we haven’t had that? Like, what could that actually look like? How could somebody identify when maybe they’re under-resourced in these deeper ways we’re talking about and how that’s going to be showing up in their marketing? 

Jenn [00:21:11] So think of how to say this succinctly because there’s so many different ways that people can be under-resourced. Often what I see when people are under-resourced and they are under-resourced in a logistical area, right? They don’t have enough time or they don’t have enough money, which often translates to they don’t have enough clients or enough clients paying them enough that they can have a livable wage. And people tend to either pack up and quit, which happens occasionally, or it’s like one last ditch effort. I will do all of the things I have to make this work. I’m going to survive. I will have 3 Psych Today profiles. I will be on Instagram. Should I be doing a SEO, I’m doing Google My Business, how many websites should I have? I think I should have like probably 18 different blogs ready to go before I even turn my website on. And sometimes you see this like in Facebook communities, like somebody will say something that was like, look at the numbers. And like, I felt like 20% of people are like, yes, I know that feeling. Like I am also feeling that urgency. And so whenever there’s urgency in people’s marketing. A lot of like, I’ve started this, but I didn’t go through with it. I started this. I didn’t go through with that. And it doesn’t feel playful in the same way because like some people are like, Let me go try this. It didn’t really work for me. I’ll go try this other thing. But if it’s all there at once, I’m often thinking like, Ooh, I really need to get you just like two or three clients. It would be really helpful for you. I think the other thing I see a lot is this sense that people are not allowed to be themselves. I used to think of it when I was still like in residence, still in training, that I’m like, Oh, I’m so glad I don’t have to do tapes anymore because who knows what the fuck I’m doing in session? I’m not following the rules. I never give people worksheets like I’m not like evidence based in stuff because I’m not doing it. Like my perfectionist would come out.  And so it could sort of like gloss over and be sort of vague in supervision like, Oh, we did this, we did that. And then I took the diary card and then I didn’t tell my supervisor, but really we spent like 45 minutes talking about what an asshole this person’s been dating. Like, I wasn’t saying that because I didn’t think I was allowed to. And so I learned to mimic my voice, to sound like the supervisors and the nurses and clinicians around me. 

Linzy [00:23:44] Right. 

Jenn [00:23:44] Like even did this beautiful, like, Let’s unpack that. But like, that’s such therapy that just gets embedded in you. I see that so often in marketing that I’m like, I don’t know who you are. You’re a therapist. And there’s a kind of almost hiding behind the chair in their marketing. 

Linzy [00:24:04] Yeah, of course. 

Jenn [00:24:06] Which actually often says to me that you haven’t integrated what it means to be human and therapist and how those are not the same thing. And therapist is a role, not a persona. And I have found over time I feel much more comfortable with therapists who can recognize like, Hey, I’m stepping into therapist persona and here’s who I am as human. And it doesn’t mean they’re wildly different pieces, that this is a role I play, but it’s not who I am, right? That makes sense. 

Linzy [00:24:36] Yeah, that makes sense. So I’m thinking then, you know, in terms of marketing, how do we balance that? Like you’re playing a role as a therapist. You’re not like, Hey, come hang out with me and play video games, like I do every Friday night. But you also want to be yourself, right? So you’re like, you’re marketing the role that you play for them, but you also are you unique? What does that look like? Bringing those two things together when we’re trying to attract our people? 

Jenn [00:25:01] So it’s twofold, probably more. I’m having many thoughts. The first is this is actually the ultimate secret. If you want to know somebody, pay attention to the content that they focus on and the content that they focus on, the person that they – especially if they’ve niched down – is who they are or who there’s some part of them that’s still trying to heal from their relationship. You’re like, our psyche just drives us either to parcels or just people that we’re trying to work something out with. So there’s that piece. But I think sometimes when people hear, okay, I gotta market, it either becomes I have to make it all about me or I have to be very, very generic so nobody feels excluded and that’s just not effective marketing. I was telling you before we got on, I was like, Oh, I like read your new sales page, which is very long. I did not read all of it, but I read a lot of it and I was like, I think this might be me. Linzy, it’s not me. I just hired an associate sort of casually this morning. I don’t have a group practice. 

Linzy [00:26:07] And well, that’s not true. Just to be clear, you are a brand new group practice owner as of 5 hours ago. 

Jenn [00:26:12] Yes, that’s true. 5 hours. I’ve been a group practice owner and I’m not like if I read the sales page yesterday, I would not be the ICA. I would not be the niche. Right. And as I read it, I could feel seen by you because you were seeing somebody with a lot of depth. You weren’t purposely self-disclosing. There wasn’t a lot of focus on you. I think there’s like a small About You section yeah that like maybe 200 words I don’t know like not a lot. 

Linzy [00:26:45] Yeah I was going to say maybe it’s like 7% of the page. 5%. 

Jenn [00:26:49] Very small. But I could still feel you. And part of this is also I know you, but I could feel you as I read down the page as you focused on the other. Mm. And that is the gift that therapists have that marketers in general like and copywriters in general really have to work to home. Is we know what it’s like to see another person. And what scares us I think is often in seeing the other we are also seen. And it’s not necessarily about let me show you who I am. But it is showing up in being able to say, I see that in you because I have experience. That’s it. And when we’re talking about advertising therapy, often we’re talking about I have experience of what it means to be deeply anxious or very depressed or marked by trauma, marked by grief. All of these pieces, I know what it’s like to be human and in some ways and focusing your attention on the other. In your copywriting, in your marketing reveals something of you. I felt a little esoteric. Did it make sense to you know. 

Linzy [00:28:01] It did make sense, you know, because I’m thinking too, I’m thinking a little bit too of like the distinction between that and a- thank you, by the way, for speaking kindly of my copy. You know, of that distinction of like, yes. Through really being able to speak to the person that you’re attracting, you’re showing- I think you’re also showing basically your approach and your language and how you hold these things. Right. Like we’re showing, though, our ways of holding and thinking about and being with the issues, working out by how we talk about them. Right. Because, you know, we could call in someone who has anxiety and we could talk about it literally a thousand different ways. Yes. And that’s going to show our relationship to it, our vibe. But I’m thinking about that, and I’m distinguishing that in my mind from therapists. I’m thinking of one therapist I worked with myself years ago as a client whose About Me page felt like this was about him. I don’t know how to explain the difference, but it’s like that this was about him and his journey and his healing, and I got to be part of that as a client rather than feeling like it was going to be about me as a client. And that was ultimately, ultimately, my client experience of him was that he was very into doing what he was doing and being himself. There’s, you know, we could have a four hour conversation about that, I’m sure. But the distinction between that and someone who is like well-resourced and able to like, hold and show who they are while still being appropriately in their role, it feels like to me there is- those are different things. 

Jenn [00:29:25] Yeah. And I also just want to highlight you just did this thing that I said we’re able to do. That you read in his marketing who he was. And he, when he wrote that, probably was not thinking, oh, my gosh, my clients are going to be able to pick up some shadow piece of me. And you did. I was talking to my clinical consultant a couple weeks ago, I- we talk about it not infrequently because, like, I really think becoming a parent has just made me better before having a kid. Being a therapist, like doing all this work on myself will make me a better parent. I don’t know is true or not true, and I can very clearly feel a correlation to being with somebody very, very small and watching them like they can figure out the world. That sort of like take it in and marinate on it and figure it out has made me more attuned to how that shows up with all people that I sit with. And one of the things that’s really magical about parenting, at least in my experience so far, is I get to be present with her and I’m there and there are parts of me that I hold back. There’s parts that it would not be helpful for her if I explained to her the fine nuance between frustration and volcanic rage when she’s having a meltdown. It’s just not helpful for her. Maybe someday she might have language for that. And in our marketing, it’s not that we are dumbing anything down, but there are parts of us that we hold back because that’s not what clients need, right? And if we’ve had a healing journey like this person who actually now I’m thinking about is also like really working hard to prove to everybody that he had a healing journey where maybe he hadn’t had a healing journey as much to say. 

Linzy [00:31:17] I’m gonna say he was midway. 

Jenn [00:31:18] Okay, I like the answer to that posturing thing that we all deal in different ways. If I’m not concerned with having to prove to you that I’m really good or I’m this or that, and I can just be like, Yeah, I’m good, and let me show you how I’m good, Yeah, I’m going to see you so much that you’re going to end up reading the sales page. Like, this is the person I have to work with. Right. And ideally, that’s all good marketing. It’s not therapy that it is about being seen. And in being seen, you do. People do see you. 

Linzy [00:31:55] Yes. Which is so true. And like, just being in the middle of a launch right now myself, this is all very, very at the surface for me, very much like what’s occupying my time and something we chatted about a little bit before we start recording is Money Skills for Good Practice Owners, which at the time that I’m recording this is the doors open for it right now. First time offer, so I’ve got the sales page and the funnel is from sales page to a call with me, right? So it’s like a big jump, right, for someone to make. But what also tells me that I did a good job with the copy is everybody that I talk to I fucking love. They’re amazing. They’re amazing. Including one person who literally found me through an Instagram or Facebook ad, registered for a call with me at 9 p.m. at night her time for 6 a.m. the next morning her time, we got on a call immediately. We’re like, Oh my God, you grew up there. I went to school there. Oh my God. She was like, Oh, I’ve got this cottage on this lake, I was like, I grew up on a resort on that lake at this cottage. She was like, you know, it was just like, brought together by the Facebook algorithm and the universe, because I was able to, like, call in my people through that copy. And like, she already was like exactly who I meant to support, even though we- that was literally her first exposure and she ended up joining the course. And so it’s like, yeah, that you do- you can really call in those folks I think when you strike that balance. So for folks listening then this is not actually a podcast about how great my sales pitch is. But I do appreciate your feedback because I worked on it for a long time in terms of like getting resourced. If people are listening and they’re like, Yeah, I’m probably under-resourced, I’m doing all the things and I feel like I’m getting none. The results are I’m calling in people or have a caseload full of people who are triggering me. So I’m making a lot of money, but every night I die a small death and start again. What can they do? Like, how do you become resourced or like, how do you bring this into your marketing? 

Jenn [00:33:38] So two things. My first piece and I, it’s almost like I want to answer two questions at once. One thing which. 

Linzy [00:33:45] Probably cuz I asked you two questions at once. Was there another one there too? 

Jenn [00:33:49] Oh, yeah, I’m making up questions. The first is I want to highlight because you’re using beautiful marketing jargon, but marketing jargon that non-trained clinicians came up with Call in your people. You’re doing that at some of your top-of-funnel content, like whether it’s ads or reels or whatever it might be doing your ad tuning to people. That’s why I read your sales page and I was like, Oh, I want to work with Linzy for six months. I don’t have a group practice idea of a group practice. I work on that with my individual coach. Like, I got to like reframe how I see myself that you were tuning to where people are at. It is like a fine distinction, but I think it’s important because often people settle for something less than attunement because they don’t know that there are other options. And when it really comes down to, okay, you’re under-resourced, what do you need? You need to be attuned to. And that’s not something you typically can just do on your own. It’d be very cool if we could do it yourself attunement just for yourself and all the inner child parenting, self-parenting work like work in isolation. But until you have an experience of somebody else who can attune to you that way, you’re pretty likely going to repeat old patterns, right? And so when we’re talking specifically about full caseloads, whether you have one or you have one that isn’t actually full, it just looks full, most of what has been modeled for people is burning themselves out and not having good boundaries. And not like in a everybody’s listening has bad boundaries. But like it wasn’t modeled, there weren’t guardrails for how do you do this in a way that feels really good. And so that is kind of the secret for everything I do and why I like marketing so much is can we move from, I don’t know, just like surface level sympathy to deep empathetic attunement that the person who is selling is going to show up as the grounded resource and say, Here’s where I see you are at and here’s the potential of what could be, here’s a different thing, right? Because your sales pitch could have said and probably still done pretty well metrics-wise, but it could have said, I’m just going to teach you how to manage your finances. It’s really hard to be a good practice owner. I’m really good at it. I teach you about it. You just come work with me. But that’s not what your sales pitch is. And in fact, is probably so long, because it’s really complicated to be a group practice owner. And there’s a lot of people that you’re holding and like, there’s a lot of people which simple and relational and attachment things that come up and you needed space to be able to lay that out for them, that you were matching them where they are. 

Linzy [00:36:45] Yes. 

Jenn [00:36:46] And so that’s not a super strategic like go Google kind of get attunement. I should probably write an article on SEO-optimizing websites like how to get a team in. But that’s the answer to this. And there’s a variety of ways that people can get it. I think everybody should be in therapy. My clients don’t go to me like, I know you think everybody should be in therapy and like, Yeah, I think everybody should be in therapy. But if you don’t have a therapist, I think that is the best place to start. And not just any old therapist, but somebody who can really hold you as you go through the transformation of being an entrepreneur. After that, I think it’s about investing in people that you can feel seen by in their marketing. And then it’s about having a community that feels good. Who gets it? Who- I said this to somebody recently as trying to explain to my therapist how my email list works, because I got some email responses for people who are really triggered by some of the material. Their stuff I think more than mine, but I was like, Yeah, this is how it works. And she was like, I don’t see your and your emailing them all individually is like, No, that’s not exactly how it works. Which I love her and she’s attuned to me in so many ways, but she does not understand sometimes. Whereas I could go to my business coach and be like, Oh my gosh, this is what’s going on. The email list is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she gets it because she’s had some lived experience with that. And I think particularly for people who are building up caseloads, you need people who are doing it the way you want to do it or close approximation. Right. Because you don’t want to be like, I’m really struggling to build up a private pay. And everybody’s like, well, just take insurance. Have you heard about Alma? Like, you should take Alma, but that’s not actually a solution. That’s them wanting you to do it more the way they do it. 

Linzy [00:38:43] Right. Yeah. So having our own. Yeah. Being attuned to, allows us to tune to others. 

Jenn [00:38:52] Yes. You’re also a parent. I’m pretty sure that’s how parenting ultimately works. If we were attuned to our kids and our kids would be able to attend to others at some point.  

Linzy [00:39:02] True story. That’s the hope, at least, right, once those brains get a little bigger. 

Jenn [00:39:07] Gentle parenting. Tik tok is like, okay, just hang in there, everybody. 

Linzy [00:39:12] I used to be on gentle parenting tik tok when I was on Tik tok for sure. Awesome. Thank you, Jenn. And for folks who want more from you, tell us about what you’ve got. 

Jenn [00:39:23] I have so much. I’m actually. I made myself notes, so I remember to say all of the things that I have. Okay. So, I mean, I’m also where I talk fairly fast, so try to slow myself down. Now, if you’re listening, I want to say like I’m recognizing I did not give you, I don’t know, like the Post-it note of like three concrete steps, like, go do these things and your life will magically be transformed. And I do actually have three magical Post-it do these three things and you’ll have your life transformed. But I’m not going to give it to you for free. You have to trade your email address to me. So I have this great workshop. If you are a therapist who knows that you want to have more, whether it’s people on your schedule, money in the bank, or just joy in life, I really want to invite you to come watch Full Caseload Unlocked. I was talking to somebody the other day and they’re like this workshop is bananas. Like, there’s so much information in it, so it’s really hard to summarize what exactly happens. It’s like, well, it is that you give them the three secrets of full caseload. Therapists know how to have a life that feels good, to market with ease and efficiency I was like yeah, but it has a little business in this. You can’t put that all in a call to action. Just one thing. So I do guide you through the three secrets that literally my students, my marketing students know, colleagues of mine know, I know, that help you move from a business that has some emptiness or some overfilled notes to a life that feels really good. While you’re still funding your retirement, you’re still doing all the things that Linzy teaches you how to do in Money Nuts and Bolts, and you’re not having to jam-pack yourself to get there. The other thing I sweet talk to Linzy over WhatsApp into doing this fun new thing that I’m going to start. I don’t know totally decided on the name I’m playing with behind the marketer is kind of fun because we talked about your marketing today. 

Linzy [00:41:31] We did. We did. Yeah. 

Jenn [00:41:33] And so it’s a private podcast for only generally for my students, but because I like you so much, Linzy, and it sounds like your listeners also like me. 

Linzy [00:41:44] Mm hmm. Evidence shows. 

Jenn [00:41:46] So if you follow the link thinkersguide.com/Linzy. And that’s Linzy with a Z. You will get a chance to not only watch Full Caseload Unlocked, but I’m also going to put you in the private podcast, not the listener. Linzy’s in the private podcast, but everybody else will get a chance to listen to the private podcast with you and some of my other favorite marketing friends in the private practice space. And actually, I know a lot of people. So even if you don’t watch the workshop, like you should come because I’m going to ask Linzy all the personal questions you wish you could ask. But you guys are too polite to do so. Yeah. 

Linzy [00:42:24] Well, I look forward to that, Jenn. Thank you. 

Jenn [00:42:26] Thank you. 

Linzy [00:42:28] Thank you so much for joining us today. Jenn. It was lovely to have you back. 

Jenn [00:42:31] Thanks. 

Linzy [00:42:46] In my conversation with Jenn. You know, something that sticks out for me is just that importance of really recognizing our own depth as people as people who are also therapists. As she mentioned, there’s the role of therapist, but then there’s also who we are as individuals and all the things we’re bringing to the table and the importance of letting ourselves be those humans and making sure we’re taking care of all parts of ourselves through therapy and having great supports and really, I think giving ourselves the resourcing and support and attention and nurturing that we need while we’re doing that work for other people. As therapists, it’s so easy to hide in that therapist role and like, this is who we are and put so much of our energy there throughout the week that it’s easy to be neglecting ourselves and all of these complex and multilayered parts and facets of us that not only are important and need attention, but also by attending to them, we become happier people. Like Jenn said, you know, we can bring joy into our life, but it also makes us better therapists. So if that’s a motivator, if it’s hard to think about doing work for yourself and the richness of your own life, this work also helps us be better therapists when we do get the resources that we need. So I’m just so, so appreciative of Jenn for coming onto the podcast today. And yes, I do go to the show notes for that link to the conversation, that private conversation that you can get to through the links that Jen and I will be having around marketing, where, as she said, she’s going to ask me a whole bunch of questions. Who knows what they’ll be? I’m excited. So check out that link to see that conversation with Jenn and I about marketing as therapists. You can follow me on Instagram at @moneynutsandbolts and, like 145 users on Apple Podcasts, you are welcome to leave a review. It’s really helpful. Allows other therapists and health practitioners to find us and benefit from these conversations. Thanks for listening today.